October 3, 2024 • 52 mins
Do you have any questions, any comments about the episode? Jimanekia would love to hear from you!
What if the key to self-love lies in embracing your imperfections? Join us in a riveting conversation with sex and pleasure educator Luna, who shares her transformative journey of body confidence, overcoming trauma, and shattering societal expectations. Luna recounts a childhood memory that profoundly shaped her relationship with her body and details her struggle with shame and diet culture. Her powerful narrative is a beacon for anyone grappling with self-doubt, urging us to refocus on self-acceptance and compassion.
Explore the intricate connection between trauma, body, and wellness as Luna and I delve into how unresolved issues can manifest physically. We dissect the societal pressures that fuel body shame and disordered eating, advocating for a holistic approach to healing. Luna's insightful anecdotes shed light on the resilience needed to navigate a society rife with stigma, especially within the often biased healthcare system. Her candid reflections on living in a larger body and the importance of self-advocacy offer invaluable lessons for anyone seeking to reclaim their health and happiness.
Celebrate the liberating power of community and self-acceptance as we venture into discussions on body positivity and sexual confidence. Luna's experiences with belly dancing and storytelling highlight the joy of self-expression and embracing one's body without judgment. The episode also touches on the profound impact of supportive communities and influential figures like Sonia Renee Taylor in fostering a positive body image. Tune in for a heartfelt exploration of breaking free from negative societal constraints and living an empowered, authentic life.
Thank you all for listening. Set a boundary with yourself this week, set a boundary with someone else. If someone else does not respect that boundary. LET THEM LOOSE YOU! Stay hydrated internally and externally. We do not have an ashy family.
IG: @The_Trauma_Within
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@thetraumawithin
Jimanekia Ig: @Jimanekia
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
luna matadas is a sex and pleasure educator with over
20 years of experience teachingsex and empowerment workshops.
She celebrates body confidence,selfadoration and building
shame-free pleasure in and outof the bedroom.
She teaches 30 plus sexy skills, topics including threesomes,
(00:34):
bdsm and sexual confidence.
She created honeyarchy andMeditate Medicaid Masturbate
brand as part of her sexpositive and feminist
merchandise.
Ladies, gentlemen, them, theys,yams, y'alls, we got Luna,
(00:58):
y'all heard it.
You already know who we'retalking to and we all know.
One of my favorite questions isthe first question, which also
gives people a little bit ofanxiety, which might be a little
kink, because I would like lookat them squirm.
Anyway, who are you?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I like that you have a squirm for your kink.
This is something I didn't knowabout you, I'm learning.
So I'm Luna Matadas.
I'm a sex and pleasure educatorand I'm also a butler to my cat
, bubba, and I get to work withpeople in groups and on campuses
and different organizations,talking about all kinds of
(01:38):
things, including stuff likeerotic communication, erotic
confidence, erotic creativity,and I teach online and offline.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
The intranets.
What a weird fucking place.
How?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
do we meet?
You know what I was trying tothink about it and I feel like
we knew each other virtually fora long time before we ever met
in person.
So I don't, I don't evenremember.
You know what?
It was through Lola.
It was through Dirty Lola, Ithink, like Dirty Lola kept
talking about it, and then weall had this love of like
(02:13):
charcuterie.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yes, goddamn, love a snack.
Love a snack.
That makes sense actually.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, that's so funny .
I'm like yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
What does trauma mean to you?
Ooh, so trauma is an experiencethat's either super distressing
or harmful to our emotional,spiritual or physical self, and
so it definitely changes us.
It has this impact on ourability to feel safe and in
control of our emotional,physical and spiritual self.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, yeah, I love that question because everyone's
answer is so differentdepending on who they are and
their experiences.
And today we're talking aboutbelly trauma, which that's
something anyone that has abelly stomach has existed with.
But my question for you is whendid you first notice your body?
(03:12):
Was it something you actuallynoticed?
Because I know for myself Ididn't notice that I had larger
breasts before my reductionuntil someone else pointed it
out to me.
So when did you first noticeyour body.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
I love this question because I can tell you exactly
what I was wearing, what themoment was.
I was nine and I was wearingthis yellow, banana yellow
matching jumpsuit of the 80s andI had a very long braid and a
pink headband and I was actuallyin a family gathering, so it
was my extended family that Idon't see that often.
(03:45):
And then my parents and Iremember going to the bathroom
and everything was fun and happy.
And I came out of the bathroomand overheard a conversation
where my grandma was asking myparents if, like, they were
going to do something about myweight because my belly was big
and I was listening to thishappening and my parents said oh
(04:06):
, you know, she's just chubby,it's just, you know, weight
that'll come off when she's ateenager and not to worry about
it, they keep me active.
And I remember thinking, even atnine, that nobody stood up for
me.
You know that no one said shutthe fuck up, or she's a kid, or
she loves art.
(04:26):
Ask her about her art.
Nobody in that room defended mybody.
So now I carry this and it'sstill in me.
It doesn't drive from the samespot anymore that everybody is
interested in or has an opinionon has to be my body.
It can't be that I come into aspace and anything be everything
(04:48):
but my body.
That that's what I have to leadwith, because that's all people
care about, and a particularshape of my body would give me
more validation, more value as aperson, which is so shitty Like
it really does like set us upto like be fucked, yes, and like
think about like anine-year-old, cute little dummy
(05:09):
that outfit sounded cute.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
I don't know it's so cute.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
it's so adorable and the way that we used to walk
with our chest out and ourbellies out.
And I recently learned in uh,pelvic floor physiotherapy, that
I suck in my stomach justunconsciously all the time,
which is creating all kinds ofback problems.
And it was because, from thatmoment, I learned that my belly
has to be small in order for meto be beautiful and in order for
(05:37):
it to be acceptable, that Icouldn't have a body that was
acceptable without a smaller,flatter belly acceptable without
a smaller, flatter belly.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
That sounds like the root start of some shame shit.
Some shame shit that said, heygirl, and also I'm going to
bring my good cousin guilt withme while we're here.
Just put it in your backpacklike Dora the Explorer.
What has shame and guiltbecause that's what I'm also
(06:04):
hearing is like the ways thatwe've held on to it, like what
has that look like for you?
Like what has that felt likefor you?
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, I think for definitely for guilt, where
there's this sense of you're notdoing enough.
You know, why can't you justget a flat belly?
Why can't you just do thethings that we tell people?
That are all lies, that aregoing to give you the body that
you think is most commerciallyattractive, like why can't I
just do them?
So this sense of failure at notbeing able to do it.
(06:34):
And, of course, I was allwrapped up in diet culture for
many decades, many decades, andhad such a disordered
relationship to food that I wasdoing all the things and that my
body is not built that wayrelationship to food that I was
doing all the things and that mybody's just not built that way.
Most of our bodies aren't.
And the shame piece came aroundfeeling undeserving of things
like love or romanticpartnerships or good quality sex
(06:57):
or pleasure in my own bodythrough clothing or through
lingerie or through movement,because I didn't have this body.
So my shame actually got meinto a very protected place
where I thought, well, I don'twant to go to the beach in case
someone's thinking somethingabout my body that my family
thought when I was nine.
They're going to confirm all ofthese ideas.
(07:19):
So shame kept me really small.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Where is shame at for your belly, for you now.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Well, me and my belly are still working on getting to
know each other.
I feel like there's just morespace.
I've unlearned a bunch ofnarratives, so now there's space
for these new narratives.
And there's a curiosity right,like is this bad, or did I learn
that somebody thinks it's bad?
And how much value am I givingto other people's approval of my
(07:48):
literal existence?
And you know, I often say tomyself the jig is up, like I'm
not going to have a flat belly.
I'm 44.
This is not.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I'm not going to get Like we're here now.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yeah right, like this is belly and meat.
You know we're going to have tofind a different way to find
pleasure, outside of thestandards of other people, right
outside of the standards ofcapitalism, white supremacy,
patriarchy, all this garbagethat actually doesn't guarantee
you the things that we thinkwe're missing.
It doesn't guarantee you love.
You know, I meet so many peoplein my coaching practice where
(08:24):
their bellies would beconsidered pretty small or
unnoticeable and they have thesame feeling and hatred about
their body that I do as a plussize person.
So we definitely see thisdistortion.
It almost looks unhinged whenyou step back and you think, wow
, this was what was going todrive my happiness.
It never was going to drive meto that destination.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, what do you think the direct narrative was
for you that you kept hearingover and over again?
Speaker 1 (08:55):
That I could not be beautiful, therefore I could not
be lovable if my body wasn'tappealing and my appeal could
not improve unless my belly wasflat, so not even just like
smaller, but flat likenon-existent.
When did you start fightingback?
(09:15):
It took me a long time.
It took me a really long time.
Excuse me, I think I startedfighting back after my divorce.
I was married for nine years.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Look at you, love found it.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, partnership.
Okay, now that I left thisthing, I'm going to fall in love
with myself, and so I startedtaking burlesque, and in
burlesque the jiggle is the joy.
So I was jiggling parts of mybody that I had no idea could be
seen as appealing, and so I didgo sort of from a an external
(09:50):
validation.
I wanted people to celebrate mybody, and I later learned you
know, you can also step ontostage gifting people yourself,
right, instead of being therefor their validation.
So that that was really thebeginning.
It was the first time I evershowed my belly in public.
I didn't own crop tops, Ididn't own bikinis.
Now I can barely keep myclothes on.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It's true.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
It's true.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I've seen Luna without clothes plenty of times.
At this point you brought up aword that I actually have been
talking about a lot, and that'sjoy, and sadly it's so hard to
find Like what has been what hasit been like finding your joy.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, you're so right .
I think joy is so hard to findand so much of it is because of
what our how our society is setup and what we're told.
But a big thing for me aroundfinding joy has been in finding
playfulness and so removing thatkind of perfectionism that I
(10:58):
always have to look a certainway or have to be a certain way,
or that I put on a dress todayand I didn't think about does it
make my body smaller or bigger?
I liked the colors and it wasfun to twirl around in.
So shifting my experience eveninto more sensory experiences
allowed me to find more play andmore joy.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Something you mentioned and I typed it down as
you were writing.
I was literally you weretalking and I was writing
something similar, and it's theways of, culturally, our bodies
are looked at differently, andall I wrote down was not white.
And then you mentioned whitesupremacy and I was like, yes,
(11:36):
it's so embedded in us in somany ways, like, culturally, we
not white and so our experienceshave been different.
So what was that like for youculturally?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, culturally definitely.
My family grew up with a lot ofinternalized racism and so
wanting to fit into white ideasof beauty was hammered into me
from very young age, and theseideas were also about a kind of
a sense of safety and trying toalign in their minds with, you
(12:12):
know, something that might beless harmful for them, when
really it was just creatingancestral trauma over and over
again.
And so if we look at so many ofour cultures you know my family
is from Guyana and you know somany of our our like cultural
expressions, dances, ourclothing, our health practices
(12:34):
they center around the belly.
And if we look at things likeintuition, we look at chakra
energy, we look at so manyspiritual, like earth breathing
trauma.
Yeah, yes, yes.
So it was this liberation notonly of the physical self for me
, but a connection back to mygut.
I couldn't feel my gut, myactual gut, not my belly gut.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah, like I think people forget, and you know
everyone's read, the body keepsthe score.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
There's other books y'all he's a little shitty,
let's be honest.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
But the ways that we hold trauma in our body, having
people point it out to you, inall of these things it sometimes
isn't ours, oftentimes it's notours, and then we hold onto it
and it manifests into, like yousaid, into gut issues.
(13:27):
Like often when I'm workingwith folks I'm like when's the
last time you had a bowelmovement?
And they're like what?
And I'm like are you pooping?
Let's talk about what happenedto you.
Let's talk, have a conversation.
Have you also had those kindsof conversations in your own
work?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think people come in withwanting the bullet sometimes or
the bullet solution and we haveto really go back.
Yeah, I mean, I want it too,but we just know that's not
usually how it goes, that'd becool.
Yeah, if anyone out there has it, send it to us.
But yeah, I think people feellike their sexuality or even
(14:04):
their pleasure goals areseparate from their other
emotional, physical andspiritual wellness, but it's all
together, and so we often seepatterns.
I mean, even in my own self, Ihave so many gut issues that
have gotten so much better,working in a holistic way
instead of trying to isolatethis part from the rest of my
body.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, let's run it back a little bit.
Let's skip back a little bit,say, oh, did I sneeze?
No, pretend the spiritualconnection to our bellies.
And in other cultures theyreally look at bellies of
prosperity and wealth and youare a king with that.
(14:50):
But here in Western societythey're like baby, you're
unlovable, we hate you.
We're not making clothes foryou.
We're going to say it's anextra large but it's a too too
small.
Like what is happening, likewhy are, why is we're so much
tussling?
We are a tussling ass countryfor bodies.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Seriously, wow, there's so much goodness there.
I think when we we look at evenjust like modern day cultures
around the world, like peoplehave body diversity, people see
things differently, and there'sso many studies that show if you
grow up in a place where abeauty is not like this
Eurocentric beauty that we havein North America, that when you
(15:32):
move to those places, yourstandards of beauty start to
change.
Your standards of beauty startto change, and so you know,
keeping fat people out ofclothing is one way that kept us
really invisible up until maybe, like I don't know, like maybe
seven years ago, we started tohave more options for clothing.
And yeah, we see a lot around,even just the connection to
(15:53):
warmth, to survival in ourbellies.
You know there are lots ofplaces where we want to fill our
bellies with heavy things sothat we stay full longer.
So there's a relationship tofood that is also just distorted
by what we've done in NorthAmerica to bodies that have more
voluminous bellies.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, Something you mentioned earlier too is when I
started working in trauma, I waslike I need to know everything.
So every two years I workedwith a different population and
one of the jobs I worked in wasin eating disorders disordered
eating and 99% of theindividuals had had some type of
(16:38):
intense trauma, predominantlysexual trauma, attached to it,
and that was like a controlthing.
And you mentioned disorderedeating.
What was that like for you andthe connection to your belly?
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Ooh yeah, so much of my disordered eating came from
three big sources.
So one was directly my mom, whois carrying sort of the
ancestral trauma of not beingdisconnected to her body, hating
her body as well.
So I learned kind of that inthat environment.
I mean society.
We know nine-year-olds are ableto count calories and do these
(17:11):
kinds of nonsensical, harmfulthings.
And then the medical system.
I have so much medical traumafrom not being able to be
treated by being in a fat body,you know, and the belly is such
a source of where we considerbad fat or good fat.
So you have a fat butt.
You know your doctor maybe isnot going to tell you lose
(17:32):
weight in your butt, but there'scertain places where we've now
associated many.
There's so much work on this,that being, of course, busting
open a lot of the medicalresearch, and I highly recommend
the fat doctor who's in the UK.
So I think it's a fat doctor UKwho really looks up a lot of
the research.
And you know there's so much tobe said about our critical
(17:54):
thinking around what we learnfrom our medical system and big
pharma, and so we're seeing Isaw so much of that in my body.
I could not for the life of meget anything until I went and
had more of a holistic team fromnaturopathy and other kinds of
alternative medicine, but nobodywould take me seriously or give
(18:16):
me any other solution to myproblem, whether it was my
eyesight, you know, until I lostweight.
Yeah, and it's just wild havingto be your own advocate to be
allowed to exist in this body.
I mean fat people.
And fatness is not a protectedcategory under human rights and
discrimination, right?
So pretty much doctors can dowhat they want, insurance
companies can do what they want.
(18:37):
Human rights and discriminationright.
So pretty much doctors can dowhat they want, insurance
companies can do what they want.
So we see a lot of people withbodies that are probably pretty
normal and average, but beingdemonized and told that they're
not healthy just based on thesize.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
We're also in such a time of social media that you
know, when I first got on thesocials back in the day, we was
in the AOL chat room, the lineof people and shit.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
What was your screen name?
I saw you there.
I don't even remember, but Iwas big into Yahoo chat.
I wanted to be where the oh Iwas.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
I was at Yahoo, I was in in aim.
Uh, let me tell you, my firstname was Sab teen W cause
Sabrina the teenage bitch namewas Sab Teen W because Sabrina
the Teenage.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Witch oh my god, I love it.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
But then it was foreshadowing around sophomore
year when my Sophomore or junior, I think it was sophomore when
my screen name became Loves toBite I Do.
I said what was happening,Jimenica, what was going on back
then.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Loves to Bite, I Do Awesome.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
That's what it was going was like I was just
reading books and shit, like Iwasn't doing nothing.
I didn't.
I wasn't 40k, I didn't haveboyfriends.
I'm watching wrestling.
Look at me now right me now um,you are so vulnerable on the
(19:58):
intranet.
How has that impacted you?
Because I know people love tobe behind a screen and just all
their goddamn thoughts andfeelings that no one fucking
asked for.
How do you deal?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Oh my gosh, oh my gosh.
So actually, the body workstuff.
I went on to teach sex ed stuffand then people would message
me and say, oh my God, you'rewearing a dress that shows your
belly, or I feel so confidentbecause I like that you have a
body like mine, and I thought,damn, people care about what I
wear and what I look like.
Okay, I thought I was trying togo away from this, but I saw it
(20:31):
as an opportunity to be likeyeah, if I'm doing it, you can
do it.
Like this is an internaldeconstruction.
The world is still going toreinforce this.
Every single day you stepoutside and so I take from Sonia
Renee Taylor the body is not anapology and I remember seeing
her speak once and she said youknow, the world can beat you up,
(20:51):
the world can do whatever, butyou don't have to go home and
take that same bat and keepdoing the same thing to yourself
.
So, having these practices,having these moments like my
little dance parties or bymyself right, or like making
sure that I massage my belly inthe shower and that I'm touching
it because it became such anumb part of me that I didn't
(21:12):
want to touch it, I don't wantto see it and that that really
helped that.
That opening it like gave me anopportunity that I didn't see
before.
I didn't know that that waseven possible, and so when I
started to tell this to people,it was great.
I had the people that weresupporting me.
And then there are the peoplethat are stuck in their own
stuff and are lashing out, and Idon't get a ton of that because
(21:35):
my comments are limited.
But I get a lot of DMs andusually they're actually from
cis men who have something tosay about my body, surprised,
surprisingly, so surprising.
So what I recommend and what Ido in practice is I don't really
care if you think I'm beautifulor if you think I'm ugly, like
there's a neutrality aroundother people's opinion.
Now for me and I don't get intoInternet arguments I don't
(22:00):
argue well for important things,yes, but not for some cis man's
opinion about my body.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
That's just gross.
I always say I don't argue forfree and I don't play with
peasants.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Yes, yes, yes, I'm up here in goddess land and you're
doing what?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Wow, look at you down there.
Peasants.
My, my business partner's newword is plebeian.
Plebeian, I love that, plebeian, you gotta say it just royal.
See it felt good it did.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
It felt better yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
You know what I just noticed in my own body when you
were talking about that.
I started to to feel emotionaland I was like oh my God, am I
crying?
I was like, oh my God, my eyesare watering up and thinking
about the ways that I've existedin this body and in my 20s
every diet, every pill I couldhave found, I touched it, every
(22:54):
let me try and do this thing.
And this whole time I waschasing this idea of a fat body.
And I look back and I was likebitch, you had double d titties
and you were 130 pounds.
Where was it?
Where was it I was, I was asfat as I thought.
I was like what are you talkingabout?
Like we get this narrative.
And also something you broughtup that like a word that pinged
(23:17):
me was mirrors.
I have been and still somewhat,and still you know it's a, it's
a practice, baby Very mirroravoidant.
I've gotten a lot better, whereI will look in the mirror and
like say things and and writethings out, not on my mirror
because I don't feel likecleaning, but like put it in a
text or something to myself.
(23:37):
What has that been like foryourself?
Like you mentioned unlearning,also unlearning, and then
actually seeing yourself.
That's some shit.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
It is.
It's wild, and if people thinkthat it's a smooth jump from
like self-hatred to, okay, Idon't hate myself, it's not.
And I remember I started thispractice of when I started
learning burlesque.
I love to dance around.
I've been doing it ever since,you know, I was living at home
with my parents and it's fun forme to have these little solo
(24:08):
dance parties, especially tosexy music, and so I started
taking videos of myself while Iwas dancing in front of the
mirror, and it took me untilvideo number 12 for me to not
watch that video and burst intotears, because I was like this
is what you look like, like youwere having fun dancing, but
then you look like this.
And so I also had to accept thatthat mirror, the way that we've
(24:31):
learned about bodies, it'sdistorted my gaze and so it's
going to take time to reclaimthat gaze and not see myself
through this lens of not goodenough, or that's the body that
people like, or this is the bodypeople desire.
And when I got to video number12, I was like she's having fun,
she has moves, look at that.
(24:52):
I could appreciate somethingabout the experience and the joy
in it, and I think that's whatpeople see when I'm putting my
body out there is not like, oh,she has this or that, it's that,
or despite this or that, she'sdoing this, it's that.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
There's a joy coming from it Back to that word joy.
Oh, it's so needed in, justlike existence Within your belly
.
What have you found?
Let's do that again, chris.
Cut that out.
She's stumbling Within yourbody.
What about your bellyspecifically?
(25:25):
Has been so impactful for youand how has it really changed
your work, like for me?
I understand that, like most,traumas affect the way that we
exist and that's literally aboutthe why the work I do like.
How has it affected you?
Speaker 1 (25:42):
So I found my rage this year.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
You have.
I've been watching.
I love rage.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
It's healthy.
It is it's healthy.
And just because, like,patriarchy has used it for
violence doesn't mean that wewould use it that way.
Right, like there's so manyaspects of rage that we're told.
Especially for me as someonewho grew up, you know, as a
woman, there is so much aboutlike suppressing rage.
And my belly my belly was whereI found that fire, because I
(26:10):
actually started to listen tothings that were irritating or
annoying about experiences thatI had swallowed and just wanted
to be kind of managing.
You know other people'sdiscomfort, but when I started
listening to my own discomfort,I was like, wait a minute, I'm
mad.
So there was all this newknowledge that came from my
(26:31):
belly that I just needed to puta match to the fire.
Right Like it was there, it'sbeen existing, it's been trying
to talk to me, probably throughautoimmune disease, but it also
is available to me.
I mean, I did a lot of therapyalso to be able to access that.
I could not even think I woulddo visualizations and I couldn't
get into my belly.
(26:51):
It was just a dense.
I remember the first one was adense boulder and I just I
didn't know what was there.
It just felt inaccessible to me.
So taking time to do thingsthat were emotionally supportive
and also physically exploratorywere really helpful for me.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
We can't leave this space without talking about sex
and something.
I know that you're a fan ofkink Ooh yes, Ooh yes.
How did you find kink?
But also, like, what has sexbeen like for you?
As the narrative told you, youweren't sexy, you weren't
(27:29):
desirable.
Like, how did you really getinto that?
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Yeah, it is so hard.
I think that once that song iswritten for us, it's hard to
take it out of the rotation.
But we can play it less right,we can find other things to have
our movement go towards.
So I had no problem being naked.
(27:54):
Once I was already with somebodybecause I'm like, well, you
know, like You're here, you cantouch it, you can see it, but I
definitely wasn't embracing ofit.
So there were certain positionsthat I didn't want to be in,
where I thought my belly washanging or that they could see
it more.
So it made my sexualexperiences smaller because I
wasn't as expansive.
(28:14):
And I think now, now I can seethe power of that area, that
whole like hip swirling,grinding, that I was missing out
on because I didn't want todraw attention to my belly, the
jiggle or having someone touchit.
It has been really incrediblefor my sexual confidence, but
(28:35):
also for the physical experienceof pleasure.
There's more blood flow,there's more inhibition.
But I found kink throughreading my mom's romance novels
and it was always some womanbeing thrown on a bed and then a
dude doing something and shewould orgasm.
So I was like, wow, it's thateasy.
(28:56):
Your blouse is just like open.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
No, tis not.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Wish.
So I was so interested insubmission I was like wow, like
that's so hot that someone knowsexactly what you want and wants
to give it to you.
Then I discovered femdoming,and so I'm a big old switch
because I'm greedy, butfemdoming actually helped me
take up more space in my bodybecause I was like a goddess
(29:22):
would be not standing heretrying to make her body smaller.
So that pivot into a roleactually integrated parts for me
and allowed me to feel thatoutside of King too.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
That's so, so funny that you're like you know, just
throw it on.
That's how I learned throughthem books.
I learned because I was watchingReal Sex back in the day and
Taxi Cab Confessions.
Baby, they need to bring thatback.
That was my shit.
Imagine the stories now.
They probably wouldn't be ableto show them honestly.
(29:55):
It'd probably be like a random.
Why is Dirty Lola in thisgoddamn car?
Yeah, totally, they probablywouldn't be able to show them
honestly.
It'd probably be like a random.
Why is dirty willa in thisgoddamn car?
Um, yeah, he's wearing a dress.
What happened?
That's crazy.
Like that's went left so quick.
Um, who were your originalbelly teachers?
Speaker 1 (30:16):
belly dancers actually, because when I saw
belly dancers I thought what areyou doing with your waist, like
how is that even?
Yeah, that's wild, yeah.
So I would take belly dancingclasses at like rec centers, you
know, near my high school orwhatever, or my university, and
it was the.
It was also that, that feelingof that power from your center.
(30:39):
So there was things aboutbalance and things about control
and because I just wanted thatarea to not exist, to see it in
practice in music, and then Iwent on to learn the drums that
go along with belly dancing,because I wanted that percussive
beat that also beats from likeyour belly to your heart, right.
So there were these reallymusical and body artistic things
(31:04):
that really started thatjourney for me.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
I love that.
You know I've been thinkingabout belly dancing more and
more because I know that youhave enjoyed it.
I know goddess Cecilia enjoysit and I'm like.
I want to do.
I want my belly to be, cause itlooks so beautiful and it's.
It's such a story that's toldthat I think people don't
realize and overlook.
Yes, what an art.
(31:30):
I think it's truly an art.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Agreed.
What does community look likefor you?
I think community is one of thecritical things that's helped
me change my relationship to mybody, Because seeing you know
the Sonia Renee Taylor, seeingthe body posi pandas like,
seeing people put themselves outthere there and really being so
vulnerable with not only theirbodies and their image but their
(31:56):
reflections about what thisjourney is.
I don't feel like this about mybody every day.
I could not like my belly onWednesday and then like it again
by Saturday.
It's just that I know how toget home now faster to this
place of peace than I did before.
And so the people that weredoing this in allowing us to see
their journey, allowing us toknow that they exist at the same
(32:19):
time as the haters in my DM, itjust makes me see okay, yeah,
my people are out there, I justgot to find my people, which is
so inspiring, and I hope I'mthat for people.
I want to be their people too,which is so inspiring and I hope
I'm that for people.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
I want to be their people too.
I mean, clearly, have you hadmore folks?
Speaker 1 (32:41):
reaching out the more you've been into these crop
tops.
Yes, yes, I have, because I seeyou.
Like you know, I went toHedonism for the first time of
this year because I was watching.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Oh my god it was so fun.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
I had such a great time and, you know, the people
were amazing.
Everybody, everybody wasamazing.
But it was this you know, Ialso went during an event that
was geared towards fitnessswingers, so I am okay, you said
challenge.
I know, and I thought I neverwould have gone to this.
Even five years ago I wouldhave been like my body doesn't
(33:17):
belong there.
And this time I went and Ithought you belong, you belong
in this body and you belongwhere you decide to take this
body.
So nobody's gonna tell youanything.
And nobody did.
Of course, I and I had momentsof comparison.
I really compared myself toother people and then I stood in
my power.
I'm like I'm here to teach thesewonderful humans pleasure
(33:39):
skills that are going to improvetheir confidence and their life
.
I'm not teaching them how tohold their belly in.
I'm not teaching them how toangle their body to look
skinnier or whatever.
I'm teaching them how to belongin their erotic experiences,
which is, for me, the definitionof sexual confidence.
And so I was doing the samething.
I walked around with my bellyout and I noticed that it was
(33:59):
only when I caught a glimpse ofmyself in a reflection did I
have judgment.
When I was walking around,feeling the sun and the sand and
a belly full of good food, Ididn't notice it.
It wasn't an important thing.
So it was a good reminder againthat it's that gaze that is
just so distorted and that wejust continually have to remind
ourselves oh, oh, sorry, belly,you know that's not.
(34:21):
I know we learned that oldbullshit, but it's not where we
live from anymore.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
I love that.
You were like it's bullshit.
Okay, so you had fun.
Though For folks that don'tknow about Hedonism, can you
just give a little, and this isnot a PG show, so go ahead, Just
tell us what it is.
Now we're here.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Hedonism is a resort in Jamaica and they're geared
towards adult lifestylecommunities.
So when you go there there's anude side and a prude side.
You can wear clothes on theprude side but you have to be
nude on the nude side.
So couples go there to justenjoy a nude positive
environment or they go there toconnect with other like-minded
(35:01):
people, like other swingers orpeople who are looking to do
kind of sexy things, so you canhave sex like on the beach.
There's a playroom.
Yeah, it was stunning, it wasbeautiful.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
How long did you say?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
We were there for a week with this great couple who
organized a called naughty gym,and so they they just love
bringing people together, so Iwas with other community
connectors, which was amazing.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Yeah, for folks that feel like that's like something
they could never do.
What would you tell them?
Speaker 1 (35:36):
You can do it.
You can do it.
It's so.
It's not easy.
It won't be easy, but you cando it anyways.
I think that confidence anddoubt can coexist.
You're never going to get to aplace where you feel a hundred
percent happy with your body,and even if you do, that's
fleeting.
You know, we're all aging.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
So we are all Honey, quick my knees right now.
Yeah, I know my back.
That's why I you know we're allaging.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Honey, quick my knees right now.
I know my back, let me re-sitbetter.
And so you know, I remembermeeting this woman in a boxing
class and she was really young,she was like in her early 20s,
and we were chatting and shesaid to me you know, I really
want to go to New York.
I said it's amazing, you shouldtotally go.
She said to me you know, Ireally want to go to New York.
I said it's amazing, you shouldtotally go.
And she said I'm going to waituntil I lose 100 pounds because
(36:15):
I don't want my photos.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
It's time for that.
You breaking up with someone.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
I know and I just thought I want to save the
babies.
I want to tell you don't notlive your life because of what
you think other people thinkabout your body, because we
usually don't even hate our body.
We hate the way that we'retreated by other people who
don't like our bodies.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, yeah, because the world is so fucking loud.
Yes, it's like I go to the gymnow I have a trainer and when we
first started he's like well,what are your goals?
And I was like, honestly, a fatass.
But second, second, I was likeI really want to invest in my 60
year old self, like I was likeI come from a family of cancer
(37:00):
and diabetes and high bloodpressure, which is, you know,
for the blacks, the sugars andall of this.
And I was like I don't want toinvest in that, I want to divest
from that.
And he was like this is amazing.
He's like, absolutely Like,let's figure this out.
And like I still go to the gymand I'm like when does this
become fun?
When do I start liking thisshit?
(37:22):
And then I start to get in myhead.
I don't know if you experiencedthis.
I started in my head and then Ilike look around.
I'm like, well, I don't wantanyone to look at me because I'm
gonna fuck this.
And then I'm like we're alljust trying to get through this
goddamn workout.
Like no one's even looking atme, mind it.
Look, bitch, do the squat andshut up.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Yes, Do the squat and shut up.
That's what I have to tellmyself too, you know.
Yeah, but I think I can reallyrelate to that experience of
thinking people are watchingwhen they're not.
And even if they are, it's sofleeting, you know, I'll walk
outside in an outfit that Ithink is, you know, kind of
cheeky, for my body or thatfeels risky for my body.
(38:01):
And I'll notice, people noticeand I just keep reminding myself
, like, who cares what theythink?
Like you love your body, youknow you're trying to love your
body, you're trying to have,you're just trying to have a
great day, like you know, justremind yourself to like, have a
great day, have a great trip,have a great time at the gym,
even though you hate it.
But this, this pull to beacceptable and appropriate for
(38:23):
other people is totally whitesupremacy, right, it's totally
patriarchy, it's totallycapitalism to keep us feeling
not good enough.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah, if there were some babies listening and
they're like I came you going togive me a tip, a trick,
something bitch I'm out herestruggling.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
What would you say to them?
What would you offer them?
Yes, I have two things.
One you got to find your people.
If everyone around you istalking about diets all the time
, they're always likecriticizing or like criticizing
their own bodies.
Stay friends with them.
But we want to be able todivest from that kind of chatter
, that kind of noise you knowlike, because those are no
longer going to be ourrestraints.
Right, we're going to find,we're going to find other ways
to have liberation.
And then I think the secondthing is is really having
(39:08):
compassion for yourself.
Like this stuff is not easy.
It's not easy to live in a bodythat you're not happy in and
most people aren't, butparticularly a fat body, where
we're not protected bycategories of discrimination,
and you can do that by showingyourself care, and so that care
means that maybe you move forfun, you know.
(39:30):
Maybe you wear your favoritecolor, even if it's in.
I used to wear like six layersover everything to try and give
this illusion that I don't havea shape right, and so who cares
Like, start to sweat yes, I wassweating profusely all the time.
Wear your favorite nail polish,I don't know.
Buy your favorite color ofpillowcase, something that says
I deserve to make choices thatalign with my joy, and that's
(39:54):
nobody else's business.
So small things, small things,babies.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah, I think we try to do too much Like when you
throw everything at it.
It's also like in trauma work.
They're like I'm doing this,I'm doing this, I'm doing this.
I'm like, well, what's going towork if you're doing six things
at a time and like overloadingyourself?
It's not real.
It's not, it's not real.
Two questions before we'll.
(40:21):
We'll get there to the end.
But mental health how have younavigated your mental health, as
bodies are so on the forefrontin this state, in this state, in
this country, maybe in thiscountry and people are
constantly scrolling throughInstagram, sometimes it's like a
minefield how have younavigated in taking care of your
(40:43):
own mental health?
Speaker 1 (40:45):
A big thing that I saw was a game changer right
away is to really be specificand intentional about my
scrolling.
So I unfollowed a bunch offolks or muted folks that were
messages that just didn't alignwith me anymore or that had
sections that I really liked,but maybe I didn't like some of
their other stuff, and then Iproactively followed people who
(41:06):
are reinforcing the message thatI am interested in, so lots of
fat influencers or fat kind ofthought makers or thought
leaders, and a big thing too isto do like active practice.
For me it's not enough for me tojust block out stuff, but doing
things like I do, a body joygratitude thing every day where
(41:30):
I just write down like two tothree things that I'm grateful
for about my body and this bodyhas, has suffered.
I've been very sick for aboutthree years and now I kind of
feel a little bit like I have abit more energy and I want to
put that energy into honoring,you know, the survival of this
body and that I still found joyin it, even when I was also very
(41:52):
, very miserable in it.
So that has really helped me,because I thought it was kind of
bullshit.
I was like whatever gratitude,you know gratitude turn to my
ass and then the other thingthat's really good for my mental
health is my friends.
So my dear friends are placeswhere I can also open up about
(42:16):
things that maybe are still raw,and for me that feels much more
loving versus having engagingmy audience in things like that.
I think that's also a tool forfolks, but for me I need my
besties.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Yeah, I think that's also a tool for folks, but for
me, I need my besties.
Yeah, we're not meant to bealone even though sometimes you
do need some quiet and get thefuck away from people.
We are meant to be withincommunity and I think people
forget that, because sometimesit's just hard to navigate other
people's bullshit and you'relike I just need some silence
(42:50):
and a break.
Yeah, definitely.
How do you find?
Speaker 1 (42:55):
your silence oh my god.
So my cat, bubba, is the mostbeautiful cat in the world.
So actually he's been.
I never realized um that, thatI was lonely living at home
until I had another live thingthat makes eye contact and makes
noises and that I have to dothings for.
(43:17):
So my alone time is often mycat time, where I'm like tending
to somebody or my plants.
I often love like pruning myplants or like creating
clippings and having making themhave babies.
So things that are really aboutnourishing other life is a good
use of my alone time.
I also, you know, lie on thecouch and do nothing and smoke
(43:41):
hot, so that's also alone time.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
I don't know.
Take my braids out and lay onmy sofa.
You have to do the marking.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Don't forget the marking.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Listen, I have to do that, damn it.
I do have to do that, damn it.
I do have to do that.
You're right, he's got a textmessage about it, uh, so I will
do that, all right.
Um, how do you balance findingjoy and adulting at the same
time?
Speaker 1 (44:06):
I don't know, know my taxes are always late.
I actually think it's aboutcompassion.
It's really about saying liketoday I have the capacity to do
this and tomorrow is a new day.
I can.
I can try again tomorrow and Ican, you know, also ask for help
and support.
(44:27):
That is affirming of kind of myown pace and the things that I
need, whereas before I used todo what you said, like really
start with this huge goal thing,like I'm going to go to hot
yoga nine times a day and theneat nothing but this or you know
, which was very restrictive,kind of orthorexic kind of
(44:48):
behavior, and so now it's allabout gentleness.
I'm letting go of this ideathat I need to suffer in order
to adult.
You know, some things are goingto get dropped.
I probably haven't emailed fromyou for like three months ago,
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
The suffering part, right, yeah, I mean, they're
like yes, actually we do wantyou to answer it.
What do?
Speaker 1 (45:12):
you mean.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
They're like we heard you on the podcast, so you're
telling us you got it.
That's wild.
One more question before we getto the last question of the
show.
For myself, I know that whenI'm not doing well mentally or
(45:38):
I'm tired, the first thing I cando is attack myself, because I
can control that.
How do you combat theself-narrative that throws back?
Like you said, every day isdifferent.
Self-narrative that's like thatthrows back.
Like you said, every day isdifferent.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
The first place that I go to when I'm struggling is
body darkness, so it could be.
oh, I did a presentation and itdidn't go that well Well, of
course it didn't go well becauseyou're fat.
You know it's like this voicethat just wants to take
everything to that place andthat also tells me, you know,
there's still relationshipbuilding for that place.
(46:17):
But I think that the thing thathelps me kind of surf, that is,
I mean, definitely my friends.
But there's something aboutknowing that there is this place
of peace that I have cultivatedright.
I know that I'm safe, I knowthat my home is safe, I know
(46:38):
that whatever.
So it makes me feel all of thethings around me that has made
my world softer, and one of theproblems of my trauma was that I
wasn't able to receive any ofthat, even if it was there,
right, I just wanted toreinforce the narrative that no,
if it was there, right, I justwanted to reinforce the
narrative that no, you're aloneand you have to do this by
yourself, and so that softnesshas really helped me.
(46:59):
So sometimes that's physicalthings, like everything in my
house that's going to cover yourbody is soft soft blankets,
soft throws, soft whatever and Imake sure that that my space
also feels like joy.
I have a big orange wall and Ihave, of course, my plant babies
, and my room is like a littleoasis, except for the thousands
of sex toys.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
For some, though, is that not yeah, Exactly Listen I
have dicks, so many dicks aroundme right now.
There's drawers.
I'm literally looking.
I'm like there's weed sex toys,glasses.
There's drawers.
I'm literally looking.
I'm like there's weed sex toys,glasses.
There's so much.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
You are talking very well, from what I can see.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
We're doing great here.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
I don't even know where my glasses are.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Oh, you know what?
I cheated because I boughtthose glasses stands, because I
have like 20 pairs of glasses atthis point so I can look over
and they're like organized likewild colors, the different
shapes, sunglasses.
You can get them for like 10bucks and then I stand about.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
That's so much better than like having a million
cases that are like empty.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Well, I also have a drawer of a million empty cases,
which I should probably throwaway.
Listen, two things, things.
Two things can exist, true,true.
So for the last question of theshow, it's, it's truly for
balance and because I'm a nosybitch.
But what is the wildest thingthat someone has texted or dm'd
(48:27):
you in the last two weeks?
Wild is relative.
Everyone is different.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
Okay, okay, this is going to sound tame, but this
person you know how sometimes,like people, come out of the
woodworks in your DMs Go back tothe woods.
Yeah.
So this person messaged me andwas like oh hey, and had like
(48:53):
kind of a blank account, likeobviously was like a secondary
sketchy account, and said, hey,do you remember me?
No other identifying details.
And I was into my head, I'mlike I don't want to, but I'm
gonna engage in this.
So I was like no, I don't, Ihave no idea who you are.
And he was like, oh, it's mike.
I was like still have no ideawho you are mike.
we had sex in like whatever year.
I was like still don't know whoyou are and he was like oh,
it's Mike.
(49:13):
I was like still have no ideawho you are, mike.
We had sex in like whateveryear I was like still don't know
who you are.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
I fucked six Mikes.
Which one are you?
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Yeah, we were all terrible.
So I don't know which one youare.
You know and and I thought thisis incredible like the
entitlement and audacity to bein my DM with literally no
effort, no information andwanting and expecting my
attention.
So I didn't carry it muchfurther.
I kind of I probably was rude,and then this is why I'm banned
(49:46):
from Tinder.
I'm double banned and my phonenumber are banned Forever.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
How did you get banned?
What was you doing?
Speaker 1 (50:01):
I think it was because men reported me and so
they report.
If you want to come over rightnow, they report.
If, like, you don't like whatthey want you to do, they report
if whatever.
So and there were times where Iwas rude, back to someone
else's rudeness.
So if you're going to come inmy inbox being like do you want
to be my whatever?
Blah, blah, blah, I'm going tobe like no, you dumb dumb, like
(50:25):
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
I love that.
Yeah, this has been fun, Ithink.
I think this is something thatwe all struggle with.
Like bodies, and specificallybellies, like that is where the
big narrative constantly isbathing suit season's coming,
baby, yeah and uh, those bathingsuits is getting smaller and
I'm confused.
Uh, they're getting smaller andbodies are not, so I don't know
(50:53):
why it's in child sizes, but Idigress.
I'm getting older.
The bathing suits are gettingsmaller.
It's weird.
I'm confused.
I was going to say somethingwild.
Anyway, let me come back.
Let me come back Before youleave us.
Where can he she they them zeez before you leave us?
Where can he she they them z zeverybody?
(51:15):
Where can they find you?
Where can they get in your?
Where can they book you?
Throw some coins.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Yes, yes, so my website is lunamatadascom.
It's like hakuna matadas, butlunamatadas and um.
There you're going to find 35different classes you can watch
on demand with lifetime viewingaccess whenever you want.
You can also book me there forevents, private events or
organizational events.
(51:40):
I love teaching virtually inperson and Instagram.
You can find me on Instagram atLuna Matadas.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
I love that.
Not on Tinder, though.
Don't look on Tinder, youcannot find me there.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
Maybe I'm also kind of in a sketchy relationship
with Bumble right now.
I got a warning, so I don'tknow.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
We're running out of.
What about Field, the off-fieldin Canada?
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Yeah, field seems to be good.
Field is like okay, well,because it's a little looser.
Yeah, that's true, it's alittle looser.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
This is so good, thank you.
This felt good for my.
I needed this, so thank you.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
Oh, my God, thank you , this was pure joy.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
Gotta have joy.
We gotta have joy in all thefuckery and until next time,
y'all Bye.
luna matadas is a sex and pleasure educator with over
20 years of experience teachingsex and empowerment workshops.
She celebrates body confidence,selfadoration and building
shame-free pleasure in and outof the bedroom.
She teaches 30 plus sexy skills, topics including threesomes,
(00:34):
bdsm and sexual confidence.
She created honeyarchy andMeditate Medicaid Masturbate
brand as part of her sexpositive and feminist
merchandise.
Ladies, gentlemen, them, theys,yams, y'alls, we got Luna,
(00:58):
y'all heard it.
You already know who we'retalking to and we all know.
One of my favorite questions isthe first question, which also
gives people a little bit ofanxiety, which might be a little
kink, because I would like lookat them squirm.
Anyway, who are you?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I like that you have a squirm for your kink.
This is something I didn't knowabout you, I'm learning.
So I'm Luna Matadas.
I'm a sex and pleasure educatorand I'm also a butler to my cat
, bubba, and I get to work withpeople in groups and on campuses
and different organizations,talking about all kinds of
(01:38):
things, including stuff likeerotic communication, erotic
confidence, erotic creativity,and I teach online and offline.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
The intranets.
What a weird fucking place.
How?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
do we meet?
You know what I was trying tothink about it and I feel like
we knew each other virtually fora long time before we ever met
in person.
So I don't, I don't evenremember.
You know what?
It was through Lola.
It was through Dirty Lola, Ithink, like Dirty Lola kept
talking about it, and then weall had this love of like
(02:13):
charcuterie.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yes, goddamn, love a snack.
Love a snack.
That makes sense actually.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, that's so funny .
I'm like yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
What does trauma mean to you?
Ooh, so trauma is an experiencethat's either super distressing
or harmful to our emotional,spiritual or physical self, and
so it definitely changes us.
It has this impact on ourability to feel safe and in
control of our emotional,physical and spiritual self.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, yeah, I love that question because everyone's
answer is so differentdepending on who they are and
their experiences.
And today we're talking aboutbelly trauma, which that's
something anyone that has abelly stomach has existed with.
But my question for you is whendid you first notice your body?
(03:12):
Was it something you actuallynoticed?
Because I know for myself Ididn't notice that I had larger
breasts before my reductionuntil someone else pointed it
out to me.
So when did you first noticeyour body.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
I love this question because I can tell you exactly
what I was wearing, what themoment was.
I was nine and I was wearingthis yellow, banana yellow
matching jumpsuit of the 80s andI had a very long braid and a
pink headband and I was actuallyin a family gathering, so it
was my extended family that Idon't see that often.
(03:45):
And then my parents and Iremember going to the bathroom
and everything was fun and happy.
And I came out of the bathroomand overheard a conversation
where my grandma was asking myparents if, like, they were
going to do something about myweight because my belly was big
and I was listening to thishappening and my parents said oh
(04:06):
, you know, she's just chubby,it's just, you know, weight
that'll come off when she's ateenager and not to worry about
it, they keep me active.
And I remember thinking, even atnine, that nobody stood up for
me.
You know that no one said shutthe fuck up, or she's a kid, or
she loves art.
(04:26):
Ask her about her art.
Nobody in that room defended mybody.
So now I carry this and it'sstill in me.
It doesn't drive from the samespot anymore that everybody is
interested in or has an opinionon has to be my body.
It can't be that I come into aspace and anything be everything
(04:48):
but my body.
That that's what I have to leadwith, because that's all people
care about, and a particularshape of my body would give me
more validation, more value as aperson, which is so shitty Like
it really does like set us upto like be fucked, yes, and like
think about like anine-year-old, cute little dummy
(05:09):
that outfit sounded cute.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
I don't know it's so cute.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
it's so adorable and the way that we used to walk
with our chest out and ourbellies out.
And I recently learned in uh,pelvic floor physiotherapy, that
I suck in my stomach justunconsciously all the time,
which is creating all kinds ofback problems.
And it was because, from thatmoment, I learned that my belly
has to be small in order for meto be beautiful and in order for
(05:37):
it to be acceptable, that Icouldn't have a body that was
acceptable without a smaller,flatter belly acceptable without
a smaller, flatter belly.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
That sounds like the root start of some shame shit.
Some shame shit that said, heygirl, and also I'm going to
bring my good cousin guilt withme while we're here.
Just put it in your backpacklike Dora the Explorer.
What has shame and guiltbecause that's what I'm also
(06:04):
hearing is like the ways thatwe've held on to it, like what
has that look like for you?
Like what has that felt likefor you?
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, I think for definitely for guilt, where
there's this sense of you're notdoing enough.
You know, why can't you justget a flat belly?
Why can't you just do thethings that we tell people?
That are all lies, that aregoing to give you the body that
you think is most commerciallyattractive, like why can't I
just do them?
So this sense of failure at notbeing able to do it.
(06:34):
And, of course, I was allwrapped up in diet culture for
many decades, many decades, andhad such a disordered
relationship to food that I wasdoing all the things and that my
body is not built that wayrelationship to food that I was
doing all the things and that mybody's just not built that way.
Most of our bodies aren't.
And the shame piece came aroundfeeling undeserving of things
like love or romanticpartnerships or good quality sex
(06:57):
or pleasure in my own bodythrough clothing or through
lingerie or through movement,because I didn't have this body.
So my shame actually got meinto a very protected place
where I thought, well, I don'twant to go to the beach in case
someone's thinking somethingabout my body that my family
thought when I was nine.
They're going to confirm all ofthese ideas.
(07:19):
So shame kept me really small.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Where is shame at for your belly, for you now.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Well, me and my belly are still working on getting to
know each other.
I feel like there's just morespace.
I've unlearned a bunch ofnarratives, so now there's space
for these new narratives.
And there's a curiosity right,like is this bad, or did I learn
that somebody thinks it's bad?
And how much value am I givingto other people's approval of my
(07:48):
literal existence?
And you know, I often say tomyself the jig is up, like I'm
not going to have a flat belly.
I'm 44.
This is not.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I'm not going to get Like we're here now.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yeah right, like this is belly and meat.
You know we're going to have tofind a different way to find
pleasure, outside of thestandards of other people, right
outside of the standards ofcapitalism, white supremacy,
patriarchy, all this garbagethat actually doesn't guarantee
you the things that we thinkwe're missing.
It doesn't guarantee you love.
You know, I meet so many peoplein my coaching practice where
(08:24):
their bellies would beconsidered pretty small or
unnoticeable and they have thesame feeling and hatred about
their body that I do as a plussize person.
So we definitely see thisdistortion.
It almost looks unhinged whenyou step back and you think, wow
, this was what was going todrive my happiness.
It never was going to drive meto that destination.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, what do you think the direct narrative was
for you that you kept hearingover and over again?
Speaker 1 (08:55):
That I could not be beautiful, therefore I could not
be lovable if my body wasn'tappealing and my appeal could
not improve unless my belly wasflat, so not even just like
smaller, but flat likenon-existent.
When did you start fightingback?
(09:15):
It took me a long time.
It took me a really long time.
Excuse me, I think I startedfighting back after my divorce.
I was married for nine years.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Look at you, love found it.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, partnership.
Okay, now that I left thisthing, I'm going to fall in love
with myself, and so I startedtaking burlesque, and in
burlesque the jiggle is the joy.
So I was jiggling parts of mybody that I had no idea could be
seen as appealing, and so I didgo sort of from a an external
(09:50):
validation.
I wanted people to celebrate mybody, and I later learned you
know, you can also step ontostage gifting people yourself,
right, instead of being therefor their validation.
So that that was really thebeginning.
It was the first time I evershowed my belly in public.
I didn't own crop tops, Ididn't own bikinis.
Now I can barely keep myclothes on.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It's true.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
It's true.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I've seen Luna without clothes plenty of times.
At this point you brought up aword that I actually have been
talking about a lot, and that'sjoy, and sadly it's so hard to
find Like what has been what hasit been like finding your joy.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, you're so right .
I think joy is so hard to findand so much of it is because of
what our how our society is setup and what we're told.
But a big thing for me aroundfinding joy has been in finding
playfulness and so removing thatkind of perfectionism that I
(10:58):
always have to look a certainway or have to be a certain way,
or that I put on a dress todayand I didn't think about does it
make my body smaller or bigger?
I liked the colors and it wasfun to twirl around in.
So shifting my experience eveninto more sensory experiences
allowed me to find more play andmore joy.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Something you mentioned and I typed it down as
you were writing.
I was literally you weretalking and I was writing
something similar, and it's theways of, culturally, our bodies
are looked at differently, andall I wrote down was not white.
And then you mentioned whitesupremacy and I was like, yes,
(11:36):
it's so embedded in us in somany ways, like, culturally, we
not white and so our experienceshave been different.
So what was that like for youculturally?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, culturally definitely.
My family grew up with a lot ofinternalized racism and so
wanting to fit into white ideasof beauty was hammered into me
from very young age, and theseideas were also about a kind of
a sense of safety and trying toalign in their minds with, you
(12:12):
know, something that might beless harmful for them, when
really it was just creatingancestral trauma over and over
again.
And so if we look at so many ofour cultures you know my family
is from Guyana and you know somany of our our like cultural
expressions, dances, ourclothing, our health practices
(12:34):
they center around the belly.
And if we look at things likeintuition, we look at chakra
energy, we look at so manyspiritual, like earth breathing
trauma.
Yeah, yes, yes.
So it was this liberation notonly of the physical self for me
, but a connection back to mygut.
I couldn't feel my gut, myactual gut, not my belly gut.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah, like I think people forget, and you know
everyone's read, the body keepsthe score.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
There's other books y'all he's a little shitty,
let's be honest.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
But the ways that we hold trauma in our body, having
people point it out to you, inall of these things it sometimes
isn't ours, oftentimes it's notours, and then we hold onto it
and it manifests into, like yousaid, into gut issues.
(13:27):
Like often when I'm workingwith folks I'm like when's the
last time you had a bowelmovement?
And they're like what?
And I'm like are you pooping?
Let's talk about what happenedto you.
Let's talk, have a conversation.
Have you also had those kindsof conversations in your own
work?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think people come in withwanting the bullet sometimes or
the bullet solution and we haveto really go back.
Yeah, I mean, I want it too,but we just know that's not
usually how it goes, that'd becool.
Yeah, if anyone out there has it, send it to us.
But yeah, I think people feellike their sexuality or even
(14:04):
their pleasure goals areseparate from their other
emotional, physical andspiritual wellness, but it's all
together, and so we often seepatterns.
I mean, even in my own self, Ihave so many gut issues that
have gotten so much better,working in a holistic way
instead of trying to isolatethis part from the rest of my
body.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, let's run it back a little bit.
Let's skip back a little bit,say, oh, did I sneeze?
No, pretend the spiritualconnection to our bellies.
And in other cultures theyreally look at bellies of
prosperity and wealth and youare a king with that.
(14:50):
But here in Western societythey're like baby, you're
unlovable, we hate you.
We're not making clothes foryou.
We're going to say it's anextra large but it's a too too
small.
Like what is happening, likewhy are, why is we're so much
tussling?
We are a tussling ass countryfor bodies.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Seriously, wow, there's so much goodness there.
I think when we we look at evenjust like modern day cultures
around the world, like peoplehave body diversity, people see
things differently, and there'sso many studies that show if you
grow up in a place where abeauty is not like this
Eurocentric beauty that we havein North America, that when you
(15:32):
move to those places, yourstandards of beauty start to
change.
Your standards of beauty startto change, and so you know,
keeping fat people out ofclothing is one way that kept us
really invisible up until maybe, like I don't know, like maybe
seven years ago, we started tohave more options for clothing.
And yeah, we see a lot around,even just the connection to
(15:53):
warmth, to survival in ourbellies.
You know there are lots ofplaces where we want to fill our
bellies with heavy things sothat we stay full longer.
So there's a relationship tofood that is also just distorted
by what we've done in NorthAmerica to bodies that have more
voluminous bellies.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, Something you mentioned earlier too is when I
started working in trauma, I waslike I need to know everything.
So every two years I workedwith a different population and
one of the jobs I worked in wasin eating disorders disordered
eating and 99% of theindividuals had had some type of
(16:38):
intense trauma, predominantlysexual trauma, attached to it,
and that was like a controlthing.
And you mentioned disorderedeating.
What was that like for you andthe connection to your belly?
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Ooh yeah, so much of my disordered eating came from
three big sources.
So one was directly my mom, whois carrying sort of the
ancestral trauma of not beingdisconnected to her body, hating
her body as well.
So I learned kind of that inthat environment.
I mean society.
We know nine-year-olds are ableto count calories and do these
(17:11):
kinds of nonsensical, harmfulthings.
And then the medical system.
I have so much medical traumafrom not being able to be
treated by being in a fat body,you know, and the belly is such
a source of where we considerbad fat or good fat.
So you have a fat butt.
You know your doctor maybe isnot going to tell you lose
(17:32):
weight in your butt, but there'scertain places where we've now
associated many.
There's so much work on this,that being, of course, busting
open a lot of the medicalresearch, and I highly recommend
the fat doctor who's in the UK.
So I think it's a fat doctor UKwho really looks up a lot of
the research.
And you know there's so much tobe said about our critical
(17:54):
thinking around what we learnfrom our medical system and big
pharma, and so we're seeing Isaw so much of that in my body.
I could not for the life of meget anything until I went and
had more of a holistic team fromnaturopathy and other kinds of
alternative medicine, but nobodywould take me seriously or give
(18:16):
me any other solution to myproblem, whether it was my
eyesight, you know, until I lostweight.
Yeah, and it's just wild havingto be your own advocate to be
allowed to exist in this body.
I mean fat people.
And fatness is not a protectedcategory under human rights and
discrimination, right?
So pretty much doctors can dowhat they want, insurance
companies can do what they want.
(18:37):
Human rights and discriminationright.
So pretty much doctors can dowhat they want, insurance
companies can do what they want.
So we see a lot of people withbodies that are probably pretty
normal and average, but beingdemonized and told that they're
not healthy just based on thesize.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
We're also in such a time of social media that you
know, when I first got on thesocials back in the day, we was
in the AOL chat room, the lineof people and shit.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
What was your screen name?
I saw you there.
I don't even remember, but Iwas big into Yahoo chat.
I wanted to be where the oh Iwas.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
I was at Yahoo, I was in in aim.
Uh, let me tell you, my firstname was Sab teen W cause
Sabrina the teenage bitch namewas Sab Teen W because Sabrina
the Teenage.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Witch oh my god, I love it.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
But then it was foreshadowing around sophomore
year when my Sophomore or junior, I think it was sophomore when
my screen name became Loves toBite I Do.
I said what was happening,Jimenica, what was going on back
then.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Loves to Bite, I Do Awesome.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
That's what it was going was like I was just
reading books and shit, like Iwasn't doing nothing.
I didn't.
I wasn't 40k, I didn't haveboyfriends.
I'm watching wrestling.
Look at me now right me now um,you are so vulnerable on the
(19:58):
intranet.
How has that impacted you?
Because I know people love tobe behind a screen and just all
their goddamn thoughts andfeelings that no one fucking
asked for.
How do you deal?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Oh my gosh, oh my gosh.
So actually, the body workstuff.
I went on to teach sex ed stuffand then people would message
me and say, oh my God, you'rewearing a dress that shows your
belly, or I feel so confidentbecause I like that you have a
body like mine, and I thought,damn, people care about what I
wear and what I look like.
Okay, I thought I was trying togo away from this, but I saw it
(20:31):
as an opportunity to be likeyeah, if I'm doing it, you can
do it.
Like this is an internaldeconstruction.
The world is still going toreinforce this.
Every single day you stepoutside and so I take from Sonia
Renee Taylor the body is not anapology and I remember seeing
her speak once and she said youknow, the world can beat you up,
(20:51):
the world can do whatever, butyou don't have to go home and
take that same bat and keepdoing the same thing to yourself
.
So, having these practices,having these moments like my
little dance parties or bymyself right, or like making
sure that I massage my belly inthe shower and that I'm touching
it because it became such anumb part of me that I didn't
(21:12):
want to touch it, I don't wantto see it and that that really
helped that.
That opening it like gave me anopportunity that I didn't see
before.
I didn't know that that waseven possible, and so when I
started to tell this to people,it was great.
I had the people that weresupporting me.
And then there are the peoplethat are stuck in their own
stuff and are lashing out, and Idon't get a ton of that because
(21:35):
my comments are limited.
But I get a lot of DMs andusually they're actually from
cis men who have something tosay about my body, surprised,
surprisingly, so surprising.
So what I recommend and what Ido in practice is I don't really
care if you think I'm beautifulor if you think I'm ugly, like
there's a neutrality aroundother people's opinion.
Now for me and I don't get intoInternet arguments I don't
(22:00):
argue well for important things,yes, but not for some cis man's
opinion about my body.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
That's just gross.
I always say I don't argue forfree and I don't play with
peasants.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Yes, yes, yes, I'm up here in goddess land and you're
doing what?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Wow, look at you down there.
Peasants.
My, my business partner's newword is plebeian.
Plebeian, I love that, plebeian, you gotta say it just royal.
See it felt good it did.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
It felt better yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
You know what I just noticed in my own body when you
were talking about that.
I started to to feel emotionaland I was like oh my God, am I
crying?
I was like, oh my God, my eyesare watering up and thinking
about the ways that I've existedin this body and in my 20s
every diet, every pill I couldhave found, I touched it, every
(22:54):
let me try and do this thing.
And this whole time I waschasing this idea of a fat body.
And I look back and I was likebitch, you had double d titties
and you were 130 pounds.
Where was it?
Where was it I was, I was asfat as I thought.
I was like what are you talkingabout?
Like we get this narrative.
And also something you broughtup that like a word that pinged
(23:17):
me was mirrors.
I have been and still somewhat,and still you know it's a, it's
a practice, baby Very mirroravoidant.
I've gotten a lot better, whereI will look in the mirror and
like say things and and writethings out, not on my mirror
because I don't feel likecleaning, but like put it in a
text or something to myself.
(23:37):
What has that been like foryourself?
Like you mentioned unlearning,also unlearning, and then
actually seeing yourself.
That's some shit.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
It is.
It's wild, and if people thinkthat it's a smooth jump from
like self-hatred to, okay, Idon't hate myself, it's not.
And I remember I started thispractice of when I started
learning burlesque.
I love to dance around.
I've been doing it ever since,you know, I was living at home
with my parents and it's fun forme to have these little solo
(24:08):
dance parties, especially tosexy music, and so I started
taking videos of myself while Iwas dancing in front of the
mirror, and it took me untilvideo number 12 for me to not
watch that video and burst intotears, because I was like this
is what you look like, like youwere having fun dancing, but
then you look like this.
And so I also had to accept thatthat mirror, the way that we've
(24:31):
learned about bodies, it'sdistorted my gaze and so it's
going to take time to reclaimthat gaze and not see myself
through this lens of not goodenough, or that's the body that
people like, or this is the bodypeople desire.
And when I got to video number12, I was like she's having fun,
she has moves, look at that.
(24:52):
I could appreciate somethingabout the experience and the joy
in it, and I think that's whatpeople see when I'm putting my
body out there is not like, oh,she has this or that, it's that,
or despite this or that, she'sdoing this, it's that.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
There's a joy coming from it Back to that word joy.
Oh, it's so needed in, justlike existence Within your belly
.
What have you found?
Let's do that again, chris.
Cut that out.
She's stumbling Within yourbody.
What about your bellyspecifically?
(25:25):
Has been so impactful for youand how has it really changed
your work, like for me?
I understand that, like most,traumas affect the way that we
exist and that's literally aboutthe why the work I do like.
How has it affected you?
Speaker 1 (25:42):
So I found my rage this year.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
You have.
I've been watching.
I love rage.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
It's healthy.
It is it's healthy.
And just because, like,patriarchy has used it for
violence doesn't mean that wewould use it that way.
Right, like there's so manyaspects of rage that we're told.
Especially for me as someonewho grew up, you know, as a
woman, there is so much aboutlike suppressing rage.
And my belly my belly was whereI found that fire, because I
(26:10):
actually started to listen tothings that were irritating or
annoying about experiences thatI had swallowed and just wanted
to be kind of managing.
You know other people'sdiscomfort, but when I started
listening to my own discomfort,I was like, wait a minute, I'm
mad.
So there was all this newknowledge that came from my
(26:31):
belly that I just needed to puta match to the fire.
Right Like it was there, it'sbeen existing, it's been trying
to talk to me, probably throughautoimmune disease, but it also
is available to me.
I mean, I did a lot of therapyalso to be able to access that.
I could not even think I woulddo visualizations and I couldn't
get into my belly.
(26:51):
It was just a dense.
I remember the first one was adense boulder and I just I
didn't know what was there.
It just felt inaccessible to me.
So taking time to do thingsthat were emotionally supportive
and also physically exploratorywere really helpful for me.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
We can't leave this space without talking about sex
and something.
I know that you're a fan ofkink Ooh yes, Ooh yes.
How did you find kink?
But also, like, what has sexbeen like for you?
As the narrative told you, youweren't sexy, you weren't
(27:29):
desirable.
Like, how did you really getinto that?
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Yeah, it is so hard.
I think that once that song iswritten for us, it's hard to
take it out of the rotation.
But we can play it less right,we can find other things to have
our movement go towards.
So I had no problem being naked.
(27:54):
Once I was already with somebodybecause I'm like, well, you
know, like You're here, you cantouch it, you can see it, but I
definitely wasn't embracing ofit.
So there were certain positionsthat I didn't want to be in,
where I thought my belly washanging or that they could see
it more.
So it made my sexualexperiences smaller because I
wasn't as expansive.
(28:14):
And I think now, now I can seethe power of that area, that
whole like hip swirling,grinding, that I was missing out
on because I didn't want todraw attention to my belly, the
jiggle or having someone touchit.
It has been really incrediblefor my sexual confidence, but
(28:35):
also for the physical experienceof pleasure.
There's more blood flow,there's more inhibition.
But I found kink throughreading my mom's romance novels
and it was always some womanbeing thrown on a bed and then a
dude doing something and shewould orgasm.
So I was like, wow, it's thateasy.
(28:56):
Your blouse is just like open.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
No, tis not.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Wish.
So I was so interested insubmission I was like wow, like
that's so hot that someone knowsexactly what you want and wants
to give it to you.
Then I discovered femdoming,and so I'm a big old switch
because I'm greedy, butfemdoming actually helped me
take up more space in my bodybecause I was like a goddess
(29:22):
would be not standing heretrying to make her body smaller.
So that pivot into a roleactually integrated parts for me
and allowed me to feel thatoutside of King too.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
That's so, so funny that you're like you know, just
throw it on.
That's how I learned throughthem books.
I learned because I was watchingReal Sex back in the day and
Taxi Cab Confessions.
Baby, they need to bring thatback.
That was my shit.
Imagine the stories now.
They probably wouldn't be ableto show them honestly.
(29:55):
It'd probably be like a random.
Why is Dirty Lola in thisgoddamn car?
Yeah, totally, they probablywouldn't be able to show them
honestly.
It'd probably be like a random.
Why is dirty willa in thisgoddamn car?
Um, yeah, he's wearing a dress.
What happened?
That's crazy.
Like that's went left so quick.
Um, who were your originalbelly teachers?
Speaker 1 (30:16):
belly dancers actually, because when I saw
belly dancers I thought what areyou doing with your waist, like
how is that even?
Yeah, that's wild, yeah.
So I would take belly dancingclasses at like rec centers, you
know, near my high school orwhatever, or my university, and
it was the.
It was also that, that feelingof that power from your center.
(30:39):
So there was things aboutbalance and things about control
and because I just wanted thatarea to not exist, to see it in
practice in music, and then Iwent on to learn the drums that
go along with belly dancing,because I wanted that percussive
beat that also beats from likeyour belly to your heart, right.
So there were these reallymusical and body artistic things
(31:04):
that really started thatjourney for me.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
I love that.
You know I've been thinkingabout belly dancing more and
more because I know that youhave enjoyed it.
I know goddess Cecilia enjoysit and I'm like.
I want to do.
I want my belly to be, cause itlooks so beautiful and it's.
It's such a story that's toldthat I think people don't
realize and overlook.
Yes, what an art.
(31:30):
I think it's truly an art.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Agreed.
What does community look likefor you?
I think community is one of thecritical things that's helped
me change my relationship to mybody, Because seeing you know
the Sonia Renee Taylor, seeingthe body posi pandas like,
seeing people put themselves outthere there and really being so
vulnerable with not only theirbodies and their image but their
(31:56):
reflections about what thisjourney is.
I don't feel like this about mybody every day.
I could not like my belly onWednesday and then like it again
by Saturday.
It's just that I know how toget home now faster to this
place of peace than I did before.
And so the people that weredoing this in allowing us to see
their journey, allowing us toknow that they exist at the same
(32:19):
time as the haters in my DM, itjust makes me see okay, yeah,
my people are out there, I justgot to find my people, which is
so inspiring, and I hope I'mthat for people.
I want to be their people too,which is so inspiring and I hope
I'm that for people.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
I want to be their people too.
I mean, clearly, have you hadmore folks?
Speaker 1 (32:41):
reaching out the more you've been into these crop
tops.
Yes, yes, I have, because I seeyou.
Like you know, I went toHedonism for the first time of
this year because I was watching.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Oh my god it was so fun.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
I had such a great time and, you know, the people
were amazing.
Everybody, everybody wasamazing.
But it was this you know, Ialso went during an event that
was geared towards fitnessswingers, so I am okay, you said
challenge.
I know, and I thought I neverwould have gone to this.
Even five years ago I wouldhave been like my body doesn't
(33:17):
belong there.
And this time I went and Ithought you belong, you belong
in this body and you belongwhere you decide to take this
body.
So nobody's gonna tell youanything.
And nobody did.
Of course, I and I had momentsof comparison.
I really compared myself toother people and then I stood in
my power.
I'm like I'm here to teach thesewonderful humans pleasure
(33:39):
skills that are going to improvetheir confidence and their life
.
I'm not teaching them how tohold their belly in.
I'm not teaching them how toangle their body to look
skinnier or whatever.
I'm teaching them how to belongin their erotic experiences,
which is, for me, the definitionof sexual confidence.
And so I was doing the samething.
I walked around with my bellyout and I noticed that it was
(33:59):
only when I caught a glimpse ofmyself in a reflection did I
have judgment.
When I was walking around,feeling the sun and the sand and
a belly full of good food, Ididn't notice it.
It wasn't an important thing.
So it was a good reminder againthat it's that gaze that is
just so distorted and that wejust continually have to remind
ourselves oh, oh, sorry, belly,you know that's not.
(34:21):
I know we learned that oldbullshit, but it's not where we
live from anymore.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
I love that.
You were like it's bullshit.
Okay, so you had fun.
Though For folks that don'tknow about Hedonism, can you
just give a little, and this isnot a PG show, so go ahead, Just
tell us what it is.
Now we're here.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Hedonism is a resort in Jamaica and they're geared
towards adult lifestylecommunities.
So when you go there there's anude side and a prude side.
You can wear clothes on theprude side but you have to be
nude on the nude side.
So couples go there to justenjoy a nude positive
environment or they go there toconnect with other like-minded
(35:01):
people, like other swingers orpeople who are looking to do
kind of sexy things, so you canhave sex like on the beach.
There's a playroom.
Yeah, it was stunning, it wasbeautiful.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
How long did you say?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
We were there for a week with this great couple who
organized a called naughty gym,and so they they just love
bringing people together, so Iwas with other community
connectors, which was amazing.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Yeah, for folks that feel like that's like something
they could never do.
What would you tell them?
Speaker 1 (35:36):
You can do it.
You can do it.
It's so.
It's not easy.
It won't be easy, but you cando it anyways.
I think that confidence anddoubt can coexist.
You're never going to get to aplace where you feel a hundred
percent happy with your body,and even if you do, that's
fleeting.
You know, we're all aging.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
So we are all Honey, quick my knees right now.
Yeah, I know my back.
That's why I you know we're allaging.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Honey, quick my knees right now.
I know my back, let me re-sitbetter.
And so you know, I remembermeeting this woman in a boxing
class and she was really young,she was like in her early 20s,
and we were chatting and shesaid to me you know, I really
want to go to New York.
I said it's amazing, you shouldtotally go.
She said to me you know, Ireally want to go to New York.
I said it's amazing, you shouldtotally go.
And she said I'm going to waituntil I lose 100 pounds because
(36:15):
I don't want my photos.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
It's time for that.
You breaking up with someone.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
I know and I just thought I want to save the
babies.
I want to tell you don't notlive your life because of what
you think other people thinkabout your body, because we
usually don't even hate our body.
We hate the way that we'retreated by other people who
don't like our bodies.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, yeah, because the world is so fucking loud.
Yes, it's like I go to the gymnow I have a trainer and when we
first started he's like well,what are your goals?
And I was like, honestly, a fatass.
But second, second, I was likeI really want to invest in my 60
year old self, like I was likeI come from a family of cancer
(37:00):
and diabetes and high bloodpressure, which is, you know,
for the blacks, the sugars andall of this.
And I was like I don't want toinvest in that, I want to divest
from that.
And he was like this is amazing.
He's like, absolutely Like,let's figure this out.
And like I still go to the gymand I'm like when does this
become fun?
When do I start liking thisshit?
(37:22):
And then I start to get in myhead.
I don't know if you experiencedthis.
I started in my head and then Ilike look around.
I'm like, well, I don't wantanyone to look at me because I'm
gonna fuck this.
And then I'm like we're alljust trying to get through this
goddamn workout.
Like no one's even looking atme, mind it.
Look, bitch, do the squat andshut up.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Yes, Do the squat and shut up.
That's what I have to tellmyself too, you know.
Yeah, but I think I can reallyrelate to that experience of
thinking people are watchingwhen they're not.
And even if they are, it's sofleeting, you know, I'll walk
outside in an outfit that Ithink is, you know, kind of
cheeky, for my body or thatfeels risky for my body.
(38:01):
And I'll notice, people noticeand I just keep reminding myself
, like, who cares what theythink?
Like you love your body, youknow you're trying to love your
body, you're trying to have,you're just trying to have a
great day, like you know, justremind yourself to like, have a
great day, have a great trip,have a great time at the gym,
even though you hate it.
But this, this pull to beacceptable and appropriate for
(38:23):
other people is totally whitesupremacy, right, it's totally
patriarchy, it's totallycapitalism to keep us feeling
not good enough.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah, if there were some babies listening and
they're like I came you going togive me a tip, a trick,
something bitch I'm out herestruggling.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
What would you say to them?
What would you offer them?
Yes, I have two things.
One you got to find your people.
If everyone around you istalking about diets all the time
, they're always likecriticizing or like criticizing
their own bodies.
Stay friends with them.
But we want to be able todivest from that kind of chatter
, that kind of noise you knowlike, because those are no
longer going to be ourrestraints.
Right, we're going to find,we're going to find other ways
to have liberation.
And then I think the secondthing is is really having
(39:08):
compassion for yourself.
Like this stuff is not easy.
It's not easy to live in a bodythat you're not happy in and
most people aren't, butparticularly a fat body, where
we're not protected bycategories of discrimination,
and you can do that by showingyourself care, and so that care
means that maybe you move forfun, you know.
(39:30):
Maybe you wear your favoritecolor, even if it's in.
I used to wear like six layersover everything to try and give
this illusion that I don't havea shape right, and so who cares
Like, start to sweat yes, I wassweating profusely all the time.
Wear your favorite nail polish,I don't know.
Buy your favorite color ofpillowcase, something that says
I deserve to make choices thatalign with my joy, and that's
(39:54):
nobody else's business.
So small things, small things,babies.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah, I think we try to do too much Like when you
throw everything at it.
It's also like in trauma work.
They're like I'm doing this,I'm doing this, I'm doing this.
I'm like, well, what's going towork if you're doing six things
at a time and like overloadingyourself?
It's not real.
It's not, it's not real.
Two questions before we'll.
(40:21):
We'll get there to the end.
But mental health how have younavigated your mental health, as
bodies are so on the forefrontin this state, in this state, in
this country, maybe in thiscountry and people are
constantly scrolling throughInstagram, sometimes it's like a
minefield how have younavigated in taking care of your
(40:43):
own mental health?
Speaker 1 (40:45):
A big thing that I saw was a game changer right
away is to really be specificand intentional about my
scrolling.
So I unfollowed a bunch offolks or muted folks that were
messages that just didn't alignwith me anymore or that had
sections that I really liked,but maybe I didn't like some of
their other stuff, and then Iproactively followed people who
(41:06):
are reinforcing the message thatI am interested in, so lots of
fat influencers or fat kind ofthought makers or thought
leaders, and a big thing too isto do like active practice.
For me it's not enough for me tojust block out stuff, but doing
things like I do, a body joygratitude thing every day where
(41:30):
I just write down like two tothree things that I'm grateful
for about my body and this bodyhas, has suffered.
I've been very sick for aboutthree years and now I kind of
feel a little bit like I have abit more energy and I want to
put that energy into honoring,you know, the survival of this
body and that I still found joyin it, even when I was also very
(41:52):
, very miserable in it.
So that has really helped me,because I thought it was kind of
bullshit.
I was like whatever gratitude,you know gratitude turn to my
ass and then the other thingthat's really good for my mental
health is my friends.
So my dear friends are placeswhere I can also open up about
(42:16):
things that maybe are still raw,and for me that feels much more
loving versus having engagingmy audience in things like that.
I think that's also a tool forfolks, but for me I need my
besties.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Yeah, I think that's also a tool for folks, but for
me, I need my besties.
Yeah, we're not meant to bealone even though sometimes you
do need some quiet and get thefuck away from people.
We are meant to be withincommunity and I think people
forget that, because sometimesit's just hard to navigate other
people's bullshit and you'relike I just need some silence
(42:50):
and a break.
Yeah, definitely.
How do you find?
Speaker 1 (42:55):
your silence oh my god.
So my cat, bubba, is the mostbeautiful cat in the world.
So actually he's been.
I never realized um that, thatI was lonely living at home
until I had another live thingthat makes eye contact and makes
noises and that I have to dothings for.
(43:17):
So my alone time is often mycat time, where I'm like tending
to somebody or my plants.
I often love like pruning myplants or like creating
clippings and having making themhave babies.
So things that are really aboutnourishing other life is a good
use of my alone time.
I also, you know, lie on thecouch and do nothing and smoke
(43:41):
hot, so that's also alone time.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
I don't know.
Take my braids out and lay onmy sofa.
You have to do the marking.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Don't forget the marking.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Listen, I have to do that, damn it.
I do have to do that, damn it.
I do have to do that.
You're right, he's got a textmessage about it, uh, so I will
do that, all right.
Um, how do you balance findingjoy and adulting at the same
time?
Speaker 1 (44:06):
I don't know, know my taxes are always late.
I actually think it's aboutcompassion.
It's really about saying liketoday I have the capacity to do
this and tomorrow is a new day.
I can.
I can try again tomorrow and Ican, you know, also ask for help
and support.
(44:27):
That is affirming of kind of myown pace and the things that I
need, whereas before I used todo what you said, like really
start with this huge goal thing,like I'm going to go to hot
yoga nine times a day and theneat nothing but this or you know
, which was very restrictive,kind of orthorexic kind of
(44:48):
behavior, and so now it's allabout gentleness.
I'm letting go of this ideathat I need to suffer in order
to adult.
You know, some things are goingto get dropped.
I probably haven't emailed fromyou for like three months ago,
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
The suffering part, right, yeah, I mean, they're
like yes, actually we do wantyou to answer it.
What do?
Speaker 1 (45:12):
you mean.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
They're like we heard you on the podcast, so you're
telling us you got it.
That's wild.
One more question before we getto the last question of the
show.
For myself, I know that whenI'm not doing well mentally or
(45:38):
I'm tired, the first thing I cando is attack myself, because I
can control that.
How do you combat theself-narrative that throws back?
Like you said, every day isdifferent.
Self-narrative that's like thatthrows back.
Like you said, every day isdifferent.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
The first place that I go to when I'm struggling is
body darkness, so it could be.
oh, I did a presentation and itdidn't go that well Well, of
course it didn't go well becauseyou're fat.
You know it's like this voicethat just wants to take
everything to that place andthat also tells me, you know,
there's still relationshipbuilding for that place.
(46:17):
But I think that the thing thathelps me kind of surf, that is,
I mean, definitely my friends.
But there's something aboutknowing that there is this place
of peace that I have cultivatedright.
I know that I'm safe, I knowthat my home is safe, I know
(46:38):
that whatever.
So it makes me feel all of thethings around me that has made
my world softer, and one of theproblems of my trauma was that I
wasn't able to receive any ofthat, even if it was there,
right, I just wanted toreinforce the narrative that no,
if it was there, right, I justwanted to reinforce the
narrative that no, you're aloneand you have to do this by
yourself, and so that softnesshas really helped me.
(46:59):
So sometimes that's physicalthings, like everything in my
house that's going to cover yourbody is soft soft blankets,
soft throws, soft whatever and Imake sure that that my space
also feels like joy.
I have a big orange wall and Ihave, of course, my plant babies
, and my room is like a littleoasis, except for the thousands
of sex toys.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
For some, though, is that not yeah, Exactly Listen I
have dicks, so many dicks aroundme right now.
There's drawers.
I'm literally looking.
I'm like there's weed sex toys,glasses.
There's drawers.
I'm literally looking.
I'm like there's weed sex toys,glasses.
There's so much.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
You are talking very well, from what I can see.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
We're doing great here.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
I don't even know where my glasses are.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Oh, you know what?
I cheated because I boughtthose glasses stands, because I
have like 20 pairs of glasses atthis point so I can look over
and they're like organized likewild colors, the different
shapes, sunglasses.
You can get them for like 10bucks and then I stand about.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
That's so much better than like having a million
cases that are like empty.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Well, I also have a drawer of a million empty cases,
which I should probably throwaway.
Listen, two things, things.
Two things can exist, true,true.
So for the last question of theshow, it's, it's truly for
balance and because I'm a nosybitch.
But what is the wildest thingthat someone has texted or dm'd
(48:27):
you in the last two weeks?
Wild is relative.
Everyone is different.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
Okay, okay, this is going to sound tame, but this
person you know how sometimes,like people, come out of the
woodworks in your DMs Go back tothe woods.
Yeah.
So this person messaged me andwas like oh hey, and had like
(48:53):
kind of a blank account, likeobviously was like a secondary
sketchy account, and said, hey,do you remember me?
No other identifying details.
And I was into my head, I'mlike I don't want to, but I'm
gonna engage in this.
So I was like no, I don't, Ihave no idea who you are.
And he was like, oh, it's mike.
I was like still have no ideawho you are mike.
we had sex in like whatever year.
I was like still don't know whoyou are and he was like oh,
it's Mike.
(49:13):
I was like still have no ideawho you are, mike.
We had sex in like whateveryear I was like still don't know
who you are.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
I fucked six Mikes.
Which one are you?
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Yeah, we were all terrible.
So I don't know which one youare.
You know and and I thought thisis incredible like the
entitlement and audacity to bein my DM with literally no
effort, no information andwanting and expecting my
attention.
So I didn't carry it muchfurther.
I kind of I probably was rude,and then this is why I'm banned
(49:46):
from Tinder.
I'm double banned and my phonenumber are banned Forever.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
How did you get banned?
What was you doing?
Speaker 1 (50:01):
I think it was because men reported me and so
they report.
If you want to come over rightnow, they report.
If, like, you don't like whatthey want you to do, they report
if whatever.
So and there were times where Iwas rude, back to someone
else's rudeness.
So if you're going to come inmy inbox being like do you want
to be my whatever?
Blah, blah, blah, I'm going tobe like no, you dumb dumb, like
(50:25):
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
I love that.
Yeah, this has been fun, Ithink.
I think this is something thatwe all struggle with.
Like bodies, and specificallybellies, like that is where the
big narrative constantly isbathing suit season's coming,
baby, yeah and uh, those bathingsuits is getting smaller and
I'm confused.
Uh, they're getting smaller andbodies are not, so I don't know
(50:53):
why it's in child sizes, but Idigress.
I'm getting older.
The bathing suits are gettingsmaller.
It's weird.
I'm confused.
I was going to say somethingwild.
Anyway, let me come back.
Let me come back Before youleave us.
Where can he she they them zeez before you leave us?
Where can he she they them z zeverybody?
(51:15):
Where can they find you?
Where can they get in your?
Where can they book you?
Throw some coins.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Yes, yes, so my website is lunamatadascom.
It's like hakuna matadas, butlunamatadas and um.
There you're going to find 35different classes you can watch
on demand with lifetime viewingaccess whenever you want.
You can also book me there forevents, private events or
organizational events.
(51:40):
I love teaching virtually inperson and Instagram.
You can find me on Instagram atLuna Matadas.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
I love that.
Not on Tinder, though.
Don't look on Tinder, youcannot find me there.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
Maybe I'm also kind of in a sketchy relationship
with Bumble right now.
I got a warning, so I don'tknow.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
We're running out of.
What about Field, the off-fieldin Canada?
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Yeah, field seems to be good.
Field is like okay, well,because it's a little looser.
Yeah, that's true, it's alittle looser.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
This is so good, thank you.
This felt good for my.
I needed this, so thank you.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
Oh, my God, thank you , this was pure joy.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
Gotta have joy.
We gotta have joy in all thefuckery and until next time,
y'all Bye.
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