The Trauma Within Navigating Corporate America As A Black Woman W/ Sarissa Thrower

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Therese Thrower is a strategic communications and
reputation management expertwith 20 years of public
relations, media training, imagereputation management and
executive leadership experience.
She describes herself as amedia and content obsessive and
proud Angeleno, and in her sparetime she enjoys live events,
urban exploration, casualobservation, sparkling wine and

(00:44):
the internet.
Ladies, gentlemen, theys, them,nims and zims, buckle up for
this conversation that goes allover the place, but really we
focus in talking about being aBlack woman at work.
I'm supes excited to have thisconversation because I have been
a Black girl in many spaceswhere I was the only Black girl.

(01:06):
So I'm excited to talk aboutbeing a Black lady, being a
Black woman, being Black ladiesin general, but also
specifically in the workplace.
So I always like to start offthese pods with who are you?
I'll read your cute fancy bio,but I think who are you might
change daily, because I knowsometimes I'm like who am I

(01:26):
today?
A bitch in a bed.
So I will ask you who are you.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
It's such a big question.
Honestly and to your point, Ithink the answer does change
daily, for me as well, I guessin the context of this
conversation.
I am a Black woman who isfrequently in spaces where she

(01:54):
is the only one like herself,and I am also a woman of many
interests, a woman of manytalents, probably an internet
addict a little bit.
What else?
A Scorpio I'm left-handed, Ihave many things.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
I love that and again , a lot of these questions I ask
is truly because I'm nosy and Isometimes forget things and
perspective.
We all have differentperspectives of things.
So how did we meet?
How do you remember us meeting?

Speaker 2 (02:30):
So I used to work at Instagram.
It's true, it is actually a fact, and when I was working there,
I was responsible for a lot ofthe external communications
initiatives, especially as itrelates to thought leaders on
the platform, creators,influencers again, internet

(02:53):
people Sometimes.
You know, my dad used to tellme when I was young that all the
time I spent on the internetwas it was going to rot my brain
.
It was a waste of time, and Iwas like you're, you were wrong,
cause basically, how I pay fora roof over my head.
Anyway, um, even before Iworked at Instagram, about 500

(03:14):
years ago, I met an individualum named Dr John Paul, and we've
been looking for a way tocollaborate for some time and
the opportunity came up.
This was, I think, october of2019.
I hope I have that year rightand I basically hosted a dinner.
Yeah, it's been a while.

(03:34):
I hosted a dinner and you knowwe kind of split the difference
on the invite list, but throughthat invite list, you were there
, you made an appearance,several other people that I
still had the pleasure ofkeeping in contact with made an
appearance that night, and thedinner itself was mainly just

(03:55):
meant to, frankly, serve as arestorative and healing space,
which, again to our earlierpoint.
This might be the theme of theconversation which, again to our
earlier point, this might bethe theme of the conversation
create an environment wherepeople who often find themselves
being the only one in theirnormal respective environment so
that was the theme of theevening, but that's how you and
I met.
I feel like we had some goodconversations that night.

(04:17):
You share a little bit about-.
You were petty, we were, I meanand nothing's changed and I'm
petty today.
Um, we, we talked about a lotof things and it was.
It was actually, I think, areally compelling and like
fulfilling experience for me.

(04:37):
It was probably one of thethings I'm most proud to have
done while I worked at um, atInstagram.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
Oh, Instagram.
One day y'all will get ittogether.
Probably not.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
I'm like, will they?

Speaker 1 (04:50):
they won't you know I like to be delusive.
Sometimes it's kind of fun.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
You're like maybe let me know how it works out for
you.
Let me know how that works outfor you.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
Um.
What does trauma mean to you?
Oh?

Speaker 2 (05:06):
you know.
Okay, so you did.
You did give me these questionsbeforehand and when you asked
that question, I actually hadn'tthought about the definition
before.
Like, I think we tossed theword trauma around a lot.
Yeah, uh, and especially intoday's world where you know
everyone, uh, if they're not intherapy, they like to pretend
they are.

(05:33):
I think, fundamentally like frommy personal point of view
trauma is a moment of impact Ihave a bang in my eye a moment
of impact that fundamentallychanges your orientation, right?
So I think we automaticallyassociate the word trauma with
something negative.
I think we automaticallyassociate the word trauma with
something negative and it quiteoften is.
Let me be very clear about that.

(05:53):
But I think really, it's just afriction point and sometimes
the friction point can lead youto more positive things.
The thing I wrote back when yousent the questions ahead of
time was I looked at thedictionary and the dictionary
definition is a deeplydisturbing or distressing
experience or a personal injury,and again, I would say that
it's actually probably somethingmore like a transitional
experience, an experience thatcreates a portal that leads you

(06:16):
to be someone different than theperson that you were before you
had this trauma occur.
So that's what it means to me.
Yeah, it's probably areflection of my own experiences
with it as well.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, and I like to ask because we can read it.
We can go through an Instagramslide.
It's on TikTok.
Everybody on TikTok is aneducator now yes, correct yes.
Everyone's been to school.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
Yes, phds, everywhere you go, call me doctor.
Thank you, might as well.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
Might as well, and I think that people just have so
many things that we justoverutilize.
We talk about like people use,like I'm traumatized.
Are you?
I feel, gaslit, did they justlie to you?

Speaker 2 (07:03):
Are they just shitty?
Do you know what that means?
Do you actually know what thatmeans?
Yeah, I'm being harmed.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
Are you being harmed?
Are you uncomfortable?

Speaker 2 (07:10):
and you don't like it .

Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yeah, let's get into language We'll talk about
language or were you wrong orwere you wrong?
Yeah, accountability, that'swild.
So for you, as I have also beenBlack in many places, I'm
currently Black in one of myjobs right now what does it mean
for you to be?
This is going to go all overthe place.

(07:32):
So right now, we are recordingthis in Black History Month.
So what does it mean to beBlack at work during Black
History Month?

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Oh boy, do you want to talk about trauma?
You want to talk about trauma,you know what?
And I feel like it's a fairlyrecent phenomenon, like it
didn't used to be that way, atleast not as far as I can
remember.
I've been in my career for 20years and I had jobs even before
I started in my career and ofcourse I've you know, I went to
a school where I was, you know,a handful of black kids in class
, et cetera, and it just feelslike the focus has become more

(08:03):
and more uh, like it's just the.
The aperture has gotten a lotsmaller in terms of, like you
know when, when you learnedabout slavery in elementary
school and all the white kidslike I would turn around and
look at you.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yes, still like when you see her.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, like I was, like I wasn't there.
I'm learning about it.
The same way, you are a bitchLike what the fuck?
So I think to be black duringblack history, what that work?
There is an expect, you knowwhat.
Let me take another step back.
I this is controversial, maybe,I don't know.

(08:44):
I actually actually hate ergs.
I hate employee resource groups.
I have mixed opinions about deiand not in the way that like I
don't like not mixed opinionsabout diversity, equity and
inclusion, like the thing, yeah,that comprise dei, but like the
way that it is executed,especially in places like school
, academia, workplace, etc.
It very rarely, in myobservation, actually leads to

(09:07):
more diversity, more equity andmore inclusion, the way that it
is currently kind of put forthin our society.
So I'm also like not a joiner,Like I'm not like a real, I'm
not really like a club girly.
I don't like group activities.
I hate group activities.
I hate icebreakers.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
Let's be honest I don't like them.
I don't want to break.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Like, leave it there, there's.
It's there for a reason I have.
I have social grace.
I have, I think, social skill.
I am literally a PR person byprofession and I've done okay.
But I'm also introverted and tome, forced social interaction is
probably it's one of the fourhorsemen of the apocalypse to me

(09:49):
, like when I, when it happensand I feel it again.
You want to talk about trauma.
So I think a couple of things.
When you're experiencingconversations about race in the
workplace, whether it's blackhistory month or not, obviously
there has to be a level, I think, of respectful interaction
there, because lived experience,whether or not you agree with
it or believe it happened, iswhat it is.

(10:11):
So people's perception is alwaysgoing to inform their bias and
their beliefs.
That's the first thing.
And the second thing is andpart of the reason I struggle
with DEI is because itapproaches these conversations
from a monolithic point of view,right?
So, like your blackness, yourblack experience, even though
we're both black women, is notgoing to be identical to mine,

(10:32):
because we are two differentpeople, we're two different
human beings.
So I struggle with this ideathat you know, we should all be
celebrated in the same way, weshould all be acknowledged in
the same way that we're allgoing to have the same points of
reference.
Black people, we are global.
We are a large populationglobally and when you factor in

(10:54):
things like immigration andtravel and regionality, like
Black people from the South,they're not the same as Black
people from Oakland.
They're just not, because theregion is different and the
United States is a big country.
It's very hard to cover for allof those things.
So how do you have thatconversation in an environment
like a conference room,realistically and without it

(11:20):
becoming some kind of like veryhigh level, very glossed over,
almost sort of meaninglessexperience?
And then there's the last thingI'll say about this is that
there is it's kind of adouble-edged sword, right.
So it's weird to have the whitewomen or white people or anyone

(11:44):
who's not black leading theseinitiatives, because
fundamentally, they will neverhave a black experience because
they're not black people.
But when you ask someone blackto do it, then it's a burden.
I gotta do it.
Well, then it's a burden, right, it's like just why I gotta be
black.
Like why I gotta be black.
But like the reality is is that, yeah, we probably should be
involved, because look whathappens and I'm like you guys

(12:07):
don't pay me enough for this andI'm not a joiner and I don't
want to go to the potluckbecause I don't know what your
houses are like, so leave me outof it all together.
That's how I feel about BlackHistory Month while being Black
at work.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
Please don't do potlucks during Black History
Month unless everybody ismelanated.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
I'm I'm listen.
That might be controversial, Idon't know.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
Some people have cats , are you okay, because I was
like them.
Cat hairs have been seen onTikTok Audacity.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
I don't know if you let animals in your kitchen.
I don't know who's in yourhouse.
I'm good, thank you, I'll bringmy lunch.
I'll bring my lunch.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
While you were talking, I was thinking I want
to take it even further back,because we found out later like
we grew up kind of close to eachother we did.
Like we made it y'all.
We actually did.
But often in the IE and inthese schools and in these

(13:04):
places, being Black is not.
It is very tricky.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Oh well, so for those of you who are, listening.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
Let's do this.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
Let's talk about what the IE is.
So California is a very bigstate.
It is literally as large aslike half of Western Europe.
I think I recently read a statthat said we are like, we are, a
top 10 global economy.
So California is massive andit's it's again, there's regions
within regions.
So you have, you know, the Bayarea, you have Northern

(13:37):
California, which is differentthan the Bay area you have.
You have the central coastinland, and then you have the
Central Coast.
Shout out to Bakersfield, shoutout to Bakersfield.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
They have sun downtowns.
They still have sun downtowns,absolutely.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
It's intense.
And then you have the CentralCoast coastal, so, like your San
Luis Obispos Anyone ever seewhat's it called?
Is it Pretty Little Lies?
No, big Little Lies.
They live on the Central Coastwith that bridge, yeah, okay.
And then you have obviouslySouthern California, san Diego.
For anyone who doesn't knowwhat the Inland Empire is, it's

(14:16):
basically your desert region.
Basically, once you leave thecounty of Los Angeles, which
actually is very large, youenter into a land, a territory
that I would not recommend foranybody.
It's desert, it's a methcapital, a fentanyl capital.
It's stressful.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
What was Riverside like?
And I'm like, oh, we're knownfor meth.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
It used to be Orange Groves and now it's racist and
meth labs.
It was probably actually racisteven when the Orange Groves
orange rose.
But the oranges were so nicethey were and you could smell
them in the air.
But, yes, so the first time Igot called the N-word I was in
the sixth grade and I wasactually coming home from school
.
I had just gotten off the busand there was this little boy I

(15:00):
can't remember his name, I thinkit was like I started with a, b
, bob, benjamin, benny,something like that.
Anyway, it was just so like outof left field, like I was, like
we'd had a disagreement.
Wouldn't be the first time Ihad an outright argument with a,
with a white man, in my life.
Um, and it wouldn't be the lasttime.
And you know, I was walking,basically turning the corner to

(15:21):
get to my street and he said whydon't you go back to Africa,
edward?
And I was like, oh my God, andI'm laughing because it actually
it was funny at the time andit's funny now, because if you
have parents and again, this isnot the case for every black

(15:41):
person but if you have parents,that uh imparted upon you and
understanding and an awarenessthat you are different in the
world, but it doesn't make youless than when stuff like that
happens to you, I think youactually are a little bit more
prepared for it do have to saythat growing up in California,

(16:07):
even in the, even in the desert,my brushes with overt racism
like that have been relativelyfew and far between.
California is the kind of placewhere we hide our racism.
We're passive.
Yeah, it's not like Confederateflag tacky, but it's
interesting because I actuallyattribute a lot of my ability to
navigate these spaces with theexperiences I had in those

(16:27):
environments.
I don't know if you feel thesame way, but I almost
appreciate some of the past,because it sharpens your
intuition, I think, and yourinstinct as to who's actually
really trustworthy, who's fullof shit and whether or not
you're well, it's a safetymechanism who's who's?

Speaker 1 (16:46):
full of shit and uh, whether or not you're.
Well, it's a safety mechanism.
Basically, I agree.
I remember the first time I wascalled the n-word.
I didn't even really realize it.
We had moved to like canyoncrest, if people know okay yep,
thank you, uh, from the eastside, um, and I was in the front
yard like minding your business, living my business and someone
drove by, not a drive-by bitch,a drive-by nigger it's not

(17:11):
funny, it's actually.
I got drive-by niggered, okay.
And when I tell you I was likewhat?
By the time I had lifted myhead, my mother flew out the
front door.
I'm like, yeah, you've neverbeen dropped by niggard.
That is, it's wild.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
Uh, it's a thing right, I'm sorry I don't mean to
laugh, it's not, not it's fine.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
At this age I'm like how old were you?
I was in like the fifth grade.
I was like 11.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
Okay, so we were around the same age.
I think I was like maybe 11.
Cause I'm in November, so I wasalways like a little bit behind
my friends who like turned thenext age.
So in fifth grade I was likenine and then I turned 10.
My parents were like she's fouryears old, she can get her ass
in school.
They don't do that anymore.
Now if you're born after likeAugust or September, you're the

(18:12):
oldest one in your class.
You're the oldest one which iscrazy, which is giving like
what's that dude from Fast Timesat Ridgemont High?
That's like 30 years old and asenior.

Speaker 1 (18:22):
That's how those kids are now anyway, damn okay I, I
do think between that and thengoing from, because I also went
to like different types ofschools.
So I went to like a privateschool in elementary and then my
mom was like I'm not doing sixhours of homework with you every
night, we're going to publicschool.
Uh, yeah, no, completely.
Shout out to cheryl.
She said.
And then I went to school inthe East side, which I also

(18:46):
think helped me to be who I amtoday, because I was around
black and black and Mexican kids.
It was like the sprinkles ofwhite.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
And I think that actually makes a huge difference
.
Yeah, okay, okay.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
For me it was actually the reverse.
So I also went to a couple ofdifferent schools and then cause
my parents got divorced when Iwas 10.
I guess this is a traumapodcast, so it's fine.
I was bouncing back and forthand my mom moved to Orange
County.
She moved to Garden Grove.
It was really close to theCrystal Cathedral, but I was
with my dad and I went to schoolin Rialto for about a year.
Oh, you went to the town.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
I did.
I just got to not be fooled bythis cute hair.
That's just because I, justbecause truly truly from the
hood.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
My dad was a teacher and he was teaching at the
school rialto.
He was like I'm just gonna haveyou here because then I don't
have to drive you all the wayaround.
So for a year I spent a uh atime in at school rialto.
This is after I got called then-word.
He was like let me, let's getyou out of here.
And actually I got into myfirst schoolyard fight with,
unfortunately, another blackgirl because she kept saying I

(19:49):
like this boy that I did notlike.
So I definitely threw milk onher in the cafeteria.
I wanted to stir up because Iwas like here's what we're not
going to do.
We're not going to do rumorsand speculation.
We do not do rumors andspeculation Not on my watch,
anyway, that we do not.
Two rivers of speculation Noton my watch, anyway.
That's why I was only there fora year, because you were
tussling.
Your dad was like I act, likeeverywhere I go is a prison yard

(20:14):
.

Speaker 1 (20:16):
Again, don't be fooled by the cute presentation
of this human y'all.
She tussles.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
That's wild yeah.
No, I think middle is like kindof in between, and then high
school.
I went when I was back incorona and it was well.
It was a little bit morediverse.
There was a lot of latinosthere, there's a lot of asians,
filipinos, a smattering of whitechildren.
Still not enough black peoplefor my liking and taste.
But you know, that's where Imet the homies like the

(20:42):
long-term black homies, etc.
Because there was, it was justa bigger environment.
Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean tocut you off.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
No, no I think middle school also was, uh, like I
felt like I went through likethese culture shocks because,
while all of this in what way?

Speaker 2 (20:56):
say more about that.
That's interesting.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yes yes, so I also was in the hood, a little bit uh
in on san bernardino, in uh offlike highland and del rosa.
Oh yeah, no, okay, okay, allright, listen, because my aunt
lived there and because I wasraised by my grandparents often
one of them would be at work somy aunts were also like helping

(21:18):
to raise me yeah I was like well, I'm not driving back and forth
, come Come on out here.
Yeah, and there was tusslingbecause you learn a lot, but the
culture shock for me was likegoing from being around all
these black and brown kids andlike understanding each other
and having this.
And then I went to Matthew GageMiddle School, which was I

(21:40):
named them, I named them, whichwas very white, and so it was
like this whole new smatheringand it was like what the fuck it
was like I look different, Italk different.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
Was that your first time in that kind of environment
?
For the most part, yeah, yeah,okay.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
And a lot of these kids grew up with money and
thought they were better.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
Quite as it's kept.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
There are some nice areas in the IE I always look at
, even going into high school.
We were the bootleg LagunaBeach, if y'all know, throw it
back one time, because the kidsdid have money and some of them
knew them.
So they're like we're similar.
I'm like girl.
We are in Riverside.
We got dragged on that OC show.

(22:24):
They hated Riverside.
We got dragged on that OC show.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
They hated Riverside Shit this is.
I remember he was like I'm fromChino bitch, and I was like,
first of all, chino is not eventhat bad.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
It's kind of bad.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
Chino Hills lovely Like they definitely have street
sweeping there.
Are you kidding?

Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah, Please, but like the kids would say things
and like not realize, and thiswill always stick with me.
I was in middle school and Iused to lie on my mama.
I used to be like, oh sure Icouldn't go.
I told her later I was likegirl.
I used to lie and say youwouldn't let me go.
They probably thought you weremean.
She was like what.
And so these girls were like ohmy God, I remember it so

(23:02):
clearly.
We were at PE.
We went and changed our clothes, which that's a whole nother
conversation.
Pe locker room's wild, but wechanged clothes.
I'm like oh my God, we'rehaving a party this weekend.
We uninvited people to inviteyou, so we hope you can come.
And I'm looking at them that isso Caucasian.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
We excluded others so that you could be included.
How about?

Speaker 1 (23:24):
we not.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
But you uninvited them.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
So I was like, let's not do that.

Speaker 2 (23:26):
I don't want that.
No, thank you.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
I was like, oh okay, why don't?
I think my mom's going to letme go.
In my mind I'm like are youfucking kidding me?
As a 12 year old, I'm likethank you, no I like, I admire
that, I admire that somethingdidn't feel right well, you know
people.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
Some black girls go to sleepovers and end up getting
it's giving crime sceneinvestigation listen, this is
going a little left, but itmakes sense because it's us.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
Do you remember that black mom that went to that
sleepover?
Yep, that's what I was home.
Yep, reference point the restof my life.
Yep, yep, because everyone saidwe don't know what happened to
it.
There's 10 of y'all in thishouse and she's the only one
that fell off a balcony.
Go to him yep, yep, yep, yeah,it's yeah 100, okay, interesting

(24:23):
we tussled here, but the pointof all of this we're going to
come back.
The point of this was likethere's a lot of things that we
go through before we even getinto the workplace, that we have
to navigate and get to, andthen we get to the workplace.
So what is it like being aBlack woman in the workplace, or
what has it been like for you?

Speaker 2 (24:43):
woman in the workplace.
Well, what has it been like foryou?
When I think about it in theplainest terms, it's again.
Sometimes there's benefit to it, and anyone who has existed in
predominantly white spaces incorporate America specifically
knows what I'm, will know whatI'm talking about, and there's
obviously a lot of downsides toit.

(25:04):
So it also depends on yourpoint of view.
I am the kind of person wholikes to keep my information
close to the best.
The less you know, the better.
A lot of things about me and mybusiness and my life are need
to know, and unless you askspecifically the right
combination of questions in thecorrect order, cause you didn't

(25:29):
ask, so I wasn't, it's not a lieif you didn't ask the right
question.
Basically, that's how Iapproach a lot of things.
Um, but the flip side of thatand I say that to say, well, I
don't, honestly, I don't reallycare, white people don't have
culture.
Well, I don't, honestly, Idon't really care, white people
don't have culture.
White people have no sense ofcommunity.

(25:49):
Community confuses them.
They look down on it.
It literally explains all ofwhite history, colonialism,
imperialism and their generalattitude towards things like
social services and even whenthey get some semblance of a

(26:11):
community structure likesocialism or communism, public
services, et cetera.
From a political standpoint,it's not endemic to them because
it's not what they're taught.
I think, especially when youtalk about how whiteness has
proliferated and spread andchanged over the last like

(26:37):
probably I don't know couplecenturies or so, like there are
white people who are white nowthat didn't used to be as white
as they currently are,everything, all their reference
points come from somewhere else,which is why we see so much
cultural appropriation, plainlyso much adoption of other things
.
Because they're human beings, Ithink they crave it.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
I can't even open my eyes, they're closed.

Speaker 2 (27:03):
White people are human beings and they, human
beings, crave connection.
We are social, we are socialanimals.
So when you think about it fromthat standpoint, um, there's
and again there's still.
There's still a lot ofprivilege and dominance there.
But white people have beenrobbed of their culture, They've
been robbed of their nativeidentities over decades, over

(27:26):
time, Right and sort of watereddown.
It's been watered down and theyhave been required to be
monolithic and hyperindividualistic.
So they're all the same, likewhiteness is one big, you know
indescribable blob, but alsoit's highly individual.
So if you're failing, if you'reby yourself, if things are not

(27:46):
going well for you, you don'thave anyone else to blame.
Like that's that to me.
That is white culture in anutshell, cultures of color,
brown and black, and diasporicand ethnic culture, on the other
hand, is very communal becausethat's literally how people are.
That's literally native to ourbiology.
Correct, we were not alwaysapex predators.

(28:09):
We had to invent weapons forthat, we had to invent tools for
that.
The tigers, the saber toothtiger, was going to eat us
otherwise.
So sometimes when I'm in thesespaces, just to kind of circle
it back, when I'm in thesespaces, it's helpful to remember
that most of the people in thespaces that I'm in do not have
the points of reference, becausethey were literally taught to

(28:32):
orient themselves differently tothe world.
And again, your perspective maynot be correct, but if it's
true to you, then there's reallyno arguing that down.
In order to get you tounderstand where I'm coming from
, I literally have to changeyour perspective.
A lot of the trauma that I haveexperienced in the workplace
comes from people projectingtheir own lived experiences onto

(28:54):
my lived experience, and Ithink that's where a lot of the
breakage occurs.
I think this get the lessinterested I am in explaining,

(29:21):
the less I want to do it, theless helpful I think it is.
And the flip side of that isthat when you're in spaces with
other Black folks, it could goprobably one of like a couple
ways.
You have the people that arelike.

(29:41):
You know we see each other, welook out for each other.
I'm hard pressed to snitch onanother black woman in the
workplace, cause there's so fewof us.
We just don't.
Even if I, I could see you do alot of things and if someone
asked me about it, I don't.
I don't know her.
I've never seen her.
Is this a photo of you and hertogether?
What?
Who?

Speaker 1 (30:00):
I allegedly I'm I'm just a little confused.
What you know, what that ai iswild baby.
They out here just deep fakingnever better.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
But the other side is that it gives crabs in a bell,
right.
So when you have people who getascribed to whiteness, who want
to be, it's giving uncle ruckus, it's giving being the best
black in the room and, like me,I'm, I'm normal, I'm interested
in being myself, I'm fine withmy blackness.

(30:33):
I don't believe my blacknesshas to be compared to other
kinds of blackness.
I actually am black.
I don't have to prove myblackness.
I'm, I'm literally black.
You may not have seen myspecific type of black before,
because I am one of one, butthat doesn't make me any less
black.
But I think a lot of times,especially growing up, you know,
with the way I sound and theway I, oh, you want to be white
and you know, you, you do allthese things that are let's get
into this, because themicroaggressions yeah white

(30:54):
culture which makes you morepalatable and acceptable to
white people.
We know about code switching, weknow about these things, but I
come by those things honestlyand I, you know, I learned
pretty early on that it was, itwas, it was privileged.
Basically that allowed me at myparents are educated.
School was never.
It was never a question whetherI was going to go to school.
I was taught how to maneuver inthese spaces.

(31:15):
To a certain extent my parentsare immigrants so they only knew
so much because they had neverreally operated in American
spaces like that.
But I had the benefit of that,but it didn't to me detract from
my Blackness.
Just because I know how to showup in different spaces doesn't
make me any less Black.
It's just my specific type ofBlack.
So I guess the cherry on top ofthis conversation, or this part

(31:36):
of the conversation aroundbeing black at work, is that
again you mentionedmicroaggressions.
You mentioned sort of having toshape yourself and adapt and
mold to being in these spacesthat are again not welcoming to
you, where there's not a lot ofpeople like you, and I think
there's a turning point when yourealize that no matter what you

(31:57):
do, no matter how you, how youbend your back to kind of fit in
it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter, because itwas never a space that was
designed for you.
It's barely designed for whitepeople, Like even a lot of them.
Again, the definition ofwhiteness has shifted right.
So the closer you are, it's aspectrum.
So the closer you are towhiteness, even if you're not
actually a white person, thebetter you'll do.

(32:18):
Closer you are to whiteness,even if you're not actually a
white person, the better you'lldo.
But the only people who areactually white in the way that
we think about it are straightwhite men, usually Protestant
men of a certain age, becauseeven young people aren't as
white as old white men.

Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah, and it's so interesting.
I'm even even thinking about,like again, some of the spaces
I'm in now.
It's like the amount ofsometimes mental gymnastics you
have to go through to exist inspaces and like just to exist
and like show up to do the jobthey paid you for Yep, Like I

(32:54):
have gone into places and beenlike, do I need to get less nice
?
And they go oh, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no.
But why do we have to get there?
Because why, didn't?
I have the same respect aseveryone else Because I've been
studying psychology since I was16, baby, Like she's not new to
this.
But, why do I have to get tothat level?
But then you become the angryBlack lady.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
Or well, I don't want to upset you, I'm not upset, I
can't get upset.
So this is nothing new and Ithink you know white women get
told this too.
But, like, the most commonpiece of feedback that I've
gotten as to why I wasn't beingpromoted or why someone was
having an issue was my tone, andI think some of it has to do
with my blackness, but a lot ofit is just me being a plain
spoken person, like if I havesomething to say, I'm going to

(33:43):
say it to you directly.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
I'm not going to sugarcoat it, I don't want to
waste time.

Speaker 2 (33:47):
Words mean things.
Words mean things.
Why are we feeling it?
And like?
Again, one aspect of whitenessis this idea of like,
comfortability, right, offraming your language in a way
that ensures that the otherperson does not take offense to
it.
You know, I rarely raise myvoice.
I'm not someone that raises myvoice.

(34:08):
I don't have to.
You heard what I said.
You heard what I said.
So it's always been interestingto me when I've gotten feedback
about my tone or my delivery,sometimes comes up and listen.
Can I be a little spicy?
Sure, I'll give you that, butat the same time I can take as

(34:33):
good as I could give.
So if you ever have feedbackfor me as a colleague, as a
friend, as an individual, I'mgoing to take it into
consideration and change becauseof it, because that's something
that I'm committed anddedicated to doing and I really

(34:58):
only want less interested inhaving to like, contort myself
to climb some imaginary ladder.
That does not matter anyway,because we are at late stage
capitalism and this is all goingto crumble any second.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
Guys, this is all made up.
It's all made up.
None of this is real.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
It's fake.
Money is fake, time is fake.
We made it up, we all made thisup and we were just like, yes,
sure, and I'm like, but we couldstop anytime we wanted.
We could, we really could.
We could stop doing this if wewanted to.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
We really wanted to, yeah when I think about like
tone in workplaces, because Ialso teach like a communication
class, because you know I do alot, but language and words are
only about 7% and so bodylanguage, right, is also a huge
form of communication and let'sjust keep it a buck.

(35:47):
Black people are fun.
Okay, we are fun.
We like to have little comments.
If you get a group of Blackpeople and a good cackle, 99% of
them are going to run indifferent directions and laugh
and bring it back in.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
Well, again, to me that's culturality.
I don't know if that's a word,but that is something specific
to Black identity.
And if you talk aboutepigenetics and the science of
DNA as it relates to ancestralunderstanding, there's answers
for all of that.
But if you don't, if you don'thave the history, if you don't

(36:24):
have the ancestral history tocorrespond with that, then to
you it's just strange.
It's like why do they do that?

Speaker 1 (36:30):
Oh, every time I'm with my my friend, lola, dirty
Lola, y'all check her out.
People are like you, y'allcheck her out.
People are like are you guysfighting?
We're like what well, you justwas like, oh my god, hey, bitch.
But I was like at what pointdid you?
Well, you guys were loud andwhat?
And every time we're like youdon't have, you don't have like,
have you ever?

Speaker 2 (36:51):
have you ever like I mean I'm sure you have attended
like a luncheon or like an eventwith like it's?
Quiet it's boring and nobody'slaughing I'm like.
You know what I'm leaving Idon't have to be here.
This feels like.
This feels like work.
It's a party.
This is a party.
I don't want to go tonetworking events for fun.

(37:11):
I don't want to like.
Why does your baby shower feellike a networking event?
Stop, I hate it here.
I don't like it.
I don't like that, yeah it's.
It's interesting, though,because those are the things
that for me, anyway, I thinkmake blackness, as it's

(37:34):
dangerous to be black.
It is hard be black, but thoseare the things that make it so
worth it, honestly, because ifyou really sat down and thought
about, like you know, thehistorical implications of
blackness and how even now, in2024, we are still having firsts

(37:55):
as a community in a countrythat is just wild right.
It is in a country that is justwild right, it is in a country
that is supposed to be free andeveryone has equal opportunity,
etc.
I sometimes I forget howactually hard it is to be black,
being called the n-word in adrive-by, when you're literally

(38:16):
but you know what?
it's okay because, like I don't,I wouldn't trade it like if
someone, when you're literally10 years old, but you know what,
it's okay, because, like Idon't, I wouldn't trade it Like
if someone came with a magicwand and was like I could trade
you into a white woman today.
No, thank you, I'm good, I'mgood.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
Thank you, though I appreciate that I know this
struggle, but also I know likebeing black is so magical right,
it really is.
As much as people and societymakes black a negative thing.
Even just like black, it's bad.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, butlike, so we'll talk about this

(38:53):
real quick.
So I talked about this withanother episode with a friend,
because I'm only talking to myfriends right now.
That works.
And I did shrooms during thepandemic, Okay, and I looked to
my closet Micro dosing.

Speaker 2 (39:04):
Were you out in Josh's room?
No, she was in it.
Oh, it was a full dose.
Okay, got it, got it, got it.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
I was in bed with my weighted blanket and I looked to
my closet and it opened, yourcloset open, with all of the
Black women from my family.
Just like walking out, like,hey, girl, we're so proud of you
.
And it was like people I knew,people I didn't know, but it was
so beautiful.
I was like, oh my God, I comefrom these baddies.

(39:30):
Yeah, like the strength and theenergy that it takes to be a
Black woman in life but also inthe workplace, that it takes to
be a black woman in life butalso in the workplace.
As I said before, it's likemental gymnastics of like I know
I belong here and now I got tobe a bad bitch to remind you.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
But who went?
Like every day, it's exhaustingEvery day, every day.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
But then you're angry or you're frustrated and you're
literally just like existing.
But it's also what we don'toften talk about is what I talk
about with with like survivors,because it is traumas.
We're navigating and waitingfor the next foot to drop.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
So often we're not even fully showing up because we
don't know.
The dimming of the light is avery real thing.
I was actually talking.
I had a conversation with my,with my therapist, this week and
I've been in therapy on and offfor for years and this
particular therapist has seen methrough many cycles, many
phases of life.
Um, and she's a white woman,shout out to her.

(40:32):
So we were talking this weekand I was essentially sort of
ruminating on this idea ofperfection and how.
You know, the specific contextwas that I received a check from
my business and it was made outto the wrong thing.
So when I tried to cash it,they were like it doesn't match

(40:52):
the shit on your account.
Try again, bitch.
And I was like I have to doublecheck and make sure that I
didn't give incorrectinstructions on my invoice, et
cetera.
Again, bitch.
And I was like I have to doublecheck and make sure that I
didn't give incorrectinstructions on my invoice, et
cetera.
So I was like you know, likemaking mistakes as a black woman
can be real Again.
You're in these spaces that aredon't met for you and one
misstep can have you losing yourjob, which can lead to you
losing your housing, which canlead to losing your relationship

(41:12):
.
If you've got kids, your familyis not being fed anymore.
So like there are massiveconsequences a lot of the time
for not being able to maintainthat facade of I don't make
mistakes.
I have to show up in exactlythe same way every single day,
as I sold myself in in order tokeep up the ruse.

(41:37):
Basically and again, that's nothuman.
Human like we are not.
No one's capable of doing that.
Also, we shouldn't have to.
That's also why I started justshowing up.
I'm like take it or leave it.
Yes, I have an attitude, andwhat about it?

Speaker 1 (41:53):
yeah, I.
It's really sad, though rightlike you, also brought up, like
we've all known, black peoplethat will also throw you under
the bus to get closer towhiteness, and I've experienced
that.
I always say that Black womenif there was an option list, I'm
like I still want to be a Blacklady Because I think we are
some of the most powerful.

(42:13):
I always say we are the mostduplicated and the most hated
all in one body.
They're mad at us, they resentus and that is wild.
If I see one more girl I justgot my hair done.
If I see one more girl lackingmelanation, trying to get some
cornrows, it doesn't even matterto me anymore, I just laugh
because I'm like you're going tobe bald.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
Why can't we do it?
I'm like no one said that youcouldn't called it's not for you
.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
You're going to have no edges.
You see how your scalp isalready red and it's go ahead,
girl, do you Be us?

Speaker 2 (42:43):
Did you see?
So there's this video that'sbeen going around on TikTok and
I actually have been thinkingabout it a lot.
It's this straight white woman.
They live in New York and shewas talking about how she was.
You know, they went to thislesbian bar in New York.

Speaker 1 (42:57):
We talked about this.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
Yes, yes, and you know they had a straight male
friend that kind of just stoppedby for a drink or just to say
hi or whatever.
And there's obviously peopleare posting because the TikTok
algorithm.
One thing it's going to do isexpose whoever's lying.
You will find out.
Shout out to the Chinesegovernment for that, because I'm
like you know what.
They literally have all myinformation and my likeness, but

(43:20):
I will be finding out what thetea is anyway.
So, of course, there's beenposts from responding to people
who were there, from the womanwho actually said something.
And what was interesting to meabout that particular incident,
and I think extrapolates into somany other situations, is like
are straight men not allowed togo to lesbian bars?
It's like why are you as?
Why do you want to be in spacesthat are not designed for you?

(43:42):
And the same could be said oflike, oh, black people wanting
to be in these white spaces.
But the reality is is like, ifthat's the status quo, if that's
the default structure, theneverything outside of that lacks
, frankly, fundamentalopportunity.
Right, and even still, whenyou're looking at it again
through this super narrow lens,there is a level of acclimation

(44:04):
that has to happen in order foryou to inhabit the space, but it
doesn't work in the oppositedirection.
So they're so used to not havingto like again, contort
themselves, bend, shape and moldto spaces that are not meant
for them that when they walk inthey're like well, the space
should always rise to meet me,or sink to meet me, as the case
may be, and it's like no, Ithink there's a level of

(44:26):
understanding that comesautomatically with being
marginalized in any way.
Everything is not for me, youshould stop getting cornrows.
White girls should not havecornrows.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
No, let them get individuals, let them get.
Let them get some faux locs.
Be out here, like me, bald.
You're going to be bald, though.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
There's a difference.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
Sometimes you have to learn the lessons the hard way.
Yeah, yeah, I'm okay with that.
I'm okay with that.
I think the idea that the wordthat comes to me is audacity,
but really it is ego.
I think it's a lot of ego andinsecurity, sure, sure.
And these are still the thingsthat we have to navigate in all

(45:11):
parts of our lives.
But listen, I want to keep it ahundred with you I don't want
to go to work, and so I alreadydon't want to go to work, and so
I already don't want to go tothis place.
Right, like I love the things Iget to do, yeah, but do I want
to go to work and have to dealwith other people?

Speaker 2 (45:26):
I would like to be independently wealthy.
I want to win the lotto yeah,but I don't play it.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
I keep saying it.
Somebody bless me, I receiveblessings and donations.
I like to be sponsored.
Put, put it in the universe.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
Yes, okay, you know what I'm saying.
Me too, also as well.
I would also like to besponsored and receive donations
from the universe or whoever.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
You put up my Venmo, my cash, it's true, though
there's so much that's thereevery day that I'm like I don't
really want to do this.
So then you make it hard for meto exist.
But also, we are there for areason, just like you're there

(46:12):
for a reason.
We all got hired to do our job.
Why do you want to make it hardfor me to not do my job?
And or you don't really knowwhat you're doing, because you
bullshitted your way in and youtry to use my skillset.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
And never had to, and never that part.
That part didn't have to workhalf as hard as I did to get in
the same space.
We're at the same table, but Istarted way behind the starting
line just by virtue of who I am.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
We make less money on the dollar.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
We talk about this every year, get promoted less
frequently, less positions ofpower and leadership.
Yep.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
Yep, all of it.
As you said, we're alreadyhaving firsts this year.
Just looking at the award shows.
How have these awards beenaround my whole life and we
haven't first time?

Speaker 2 (46:56):
excuse me, or the second time since 1980.
I'm like, guys, we have got tostop doing that.
I don't want to be the firstanymore.
I don't want to be the first, Idon't want to be the only.
I think it's embarrassing.
If I'm the first, then you, youshould shut down your whole
organization, Cause why did ittake you so long?
In 2020?
We have AI, we've got thesephones, we've got all these

(47:17):
things that make it so that youknow we have the technology.
Basically is what I'm sayingBlack people are literally
everywhere.
You can find a way to stealcornrows and lips and butts and
everything.
All the motion, all the shitthat you talk about, all of
those things, washcloths yes,you find a way to take all that,

(47:41):
and yet it's only been two ofus who won this award or got
this accolade, or had held thisposition.
That uh, black uh, waspresident of harvard.
They got rid of her ass quick.
They said get that, you're outof here drive by niggering get
her out of here, and they did.
It took six months for thatwoman to ascend to a place that
no other black woman has everbeen seen and promptly get

(48:04):
excused for plagiarism, which,by the way, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
Sorry this is nothing original anymore.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
Very few things you have the nerve.
All white people in academia dois steal the audacity.
Please don't get me started.
Also, she cited her sources.
For the record, that womancited her sources.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
Y'all got me fucked up I mean, these are these are
conversations that we have inthe group chat.
Yeah, yeah, it's true.
How important is the Black Ladygroup chat?

Speaker 2 (48:45):
Oh, I mean, it's a cultural institution and before
it was a group chat, it was theparty line, it was, you know,
the brunch club, whatever it was.
Before we had, you know, theability to do our group chats,
which I guess it's been a whilenow since we've had that ability
.
It's a gut check and you needmultiple ones.
You need the ones that you needwith, like your work friends and

(49:06):
your work people.
You need the one-on-ones, likethe.
You have like everyone in thegroup chat, and then you have
like a couple of side ones.
You need those you have.
You have the party chats.
You have the chats where you go.
If you need to feel validatedand assured, you need your chats
where it's like hey, I got somebodies.
People are like, tell me when Iwill get my shovel, like let's

(49:26):
go, you need different kinds.
And I think, like again, whenyou talk about this idea of
community, when you talk aboutthis idea of belonging and
cultivation, from thatstandpoint, I do wonder if, like
, do white women have groupchats like that?
Like.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
I hope so.

Speaker 2 (49:44):
I feel like if they did more of them did, they
wouldn't act like that, like theway that they act, they would.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
Well, it depends on how the group chat is flowing
right, because you come in mygroup chat and you're like, oh
my God, like girl that's wild.
Why would you do that?
Right, because you have to.
You have to also be in a spacethat feels safe enough that you
can be yourself where yourfriends can be like girl.
What the hell were you thinking?
Like I'm on your side, but alsothat was wild.

(50:12):
Maybe we don't do that.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Yeah.
The answer is no.
Yeah, exactly Exactly, and likeyou need.
Your price is way too high.
You need to cut it.

Speaker 1 (50:20):
What are we doing?
Or no, no, no, ask for moremoney.
Cause, let me tell you.

Speaker 2 (50:33):
Stephanie over here was getting nah girl, we'll
submit.
But again, I think, because ofthe nature of white supremacy
culture, it is hard for peoplewho are in it, whether they're
white or not, frankly, to getout of that mindset.
And it's not even about I don'teven think it's about being
supportive, although that is alarge component.
It's also about this idea thata rising tide lifts all ships.

(50:53):
If you're doing well and I'massociated with you I'm
automatically doing well byproxy Winners work with other
winners.
Essentially, winners surroundthemselves with other winners
and there's I'm sure there'slike a mathematical term for it,
but there's a lot of odds.
So the chances are, if I'm likethis and you're like this and
this third person's like this inthe group chat, in whatever

(51:13):
context, we're all going to bedoing, know on average better
because of our shared level.

Speaker 1 (51:21):
Essentially and I don't, I don't like white white
supremacy culture does not speakto that, it just doesn't that's
interesting yeah like to beable to watch from my black ass
couch and to be able to watchthe way that other people
navigate and, I think, shout outto aging, like I am so thankful

(51:44):
to age and like I always saythat like my mom was killed when
she was 24.
I get to live an extra year andsee more than she ever did and
I'm like sometimes I'm talkingto her like girl, you didn't
miss that.
These people are your wild,okay, but I'm so thankful to be
this age that I am now, to havethose experiences that I can be
like, oh, I don't care.

(52:05):
Yeah, people be like you docare.
And I'm like, no, I don't, no,I don't.
Do you make you care?

Speaker 2 (52:12):
yes, we're both like how are you gonna tell me and
again, this lived experience howare you going to tell me
whether or not I care?
You care, I'm like.
Did I say that?
Was that what I said?
You?

Speaker 1 (52:24):
should, or well, you should care, I'm like according
to who says who?

Speaker 2 (52:29):
no, I, um.
I am very grateful to be theage that I am, um, because,
again, tomorrow is not promisedand the things that seem really
important when you're 25 or 29or 32 or 38, just become
increasingly less important theolder you get.

(52:52):
The fact of the matter is andthis is my Scorpionic quality
coming out Life is a zero sumgame.
Nobody gets out.
Zero of however many peoplehave been born so far are making
it out, nobody's winning,basically.
So, again, to go back to theearlier point we made, we made
it up, we made it all up, and Ithink when you are in these

(53:14):
moments of like fervor or frenzyand you're worried about this
email or this project, or thisperson said this thing to you
and it's it feels like the worldis literally stopping on its
axis.
You remember, remember thatyou're going to die, and is this
something that you want peopletalking about at your funeral?

(53:36):
Embarrassing, imagine someonebringing up a typo from an email
you sent or a PowerPoint.

Speaker 1 (53:44):
I already can't fix my face.
I really have to get back tomirror work because the way my
face be responding before mymouth, which is also probably
not great for people before mymouth, which is also probably
not great for people In all ofthis.
I think after we've I mean notafter we're still always in this
pandemic right.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
Like it's just different.
Yeah, it's part of our livesnow.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
Yeah, being around, miss Covita keeps having kids.

Speaker 2 (54:12):
Not Miss Covita, she does.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
She's a fertile bitch Real it in girl, all these
versions of yourself.
But in all of this, I thinkit's so important and I think
now, since coming out, peoplesuddenly care more about mental
health and I think mental healthfor black women has really been

(54:37):
such a a beautiful space.
To see people evolving inTherapy for Black girls is
amazing.
There's organizations that helpyou pay for therapy for being a
Black woman because theyunderstand again the most
duplicated and the most hated.
What has mental health lookedlike for you?
When did you figure out youneeded to really tap into that

(54:57):
game?

Speaker 2 (54:58):
So pretty early on.
Actually, I want to say it wasin my late teens, early 20s,
when I started to recognize andI've always been interested in
psychology to your point,studying psychology since a very
early age and recognizing whatcan happen when you don't
prioritize your well, holisticwellbeing body, mind, soul.

(55:21):
Now it's easier said than donea lot of the times and you do
have to build the habit.
So, just like working out, justlike, you know, eating well,
you do have to develop a hygiene, a spiritual and mental hygiene
routine and it's very personalthat works for you.
I mean, I'm very fortunate tonot be clinical in the way that

(55:50):
my mental health works.
So I have not, knock on wood,been diagnosed with depression
or bipolar disorder or mania oranything like that.
But being alive is hard andwhen you talk about, like your
levels of brain chemistry andall the science of it and how so
much of that is actually out ofour control, I think that's

(56:11):
really what it boils down to.
It's like within the blackcommunity, at least the ones
that I was part of, mentalhealth is not really regarded as
like a real thing.
It's only very it's that whitething?
Yeah, correct, but not.
But even then, like a lot oftimes I actually was just having
this conversation with someonethere's so much that people

(56:32):
suffer from of all, of all races, of all ethnicities, andities,
and it's like, well, you justdon't address it, you just
ignore it and then it goes away.
But literally no, it doesn't,and then the problem festers, it
boils over.
Next thing you know you're 20years in to feeling like this
way.
It's affected your relationshipwith your partner.
It's affected your relationshipwith your kids, if you have

(56:52):
them.
It's now starting to affectyour relationship with your
grandkids, if you have them.
It's now starting to affectyour relationship with your
grandkids if you're old enough.
And that's, that's literallythe definition of generational
trauma.
So to me, there's a level ofpersonal accountability and
responsibility that has tohappen before you with any
conversation around mentalhealth.
If you cannot acknowledge theproblem and this is like true
with any kind of issue really,if you're dealing with addiction
, if you're dealing with, again,mental health issues, if you're

(57:14):
dealing with anything, you withaddiction, if you're dealing
with, again, mental healthissues, if you're dealing with
anything, you have toacknowledge that there's a
problem first before it canbegin to be solved.
I think when you think about theidea of taking care of yourself
or taking care of your mentalhealth again, it's a very
personal sort of thing but a lotof people don't have, I want to
say, that inner dialogue orthat little voice that tells you

(57:36):
like you're unwell.
Or if they have it, it's veryquiet, they're not listening to
it.
It gets dismissed rather easilyin favor of their external
environment, to maintenance andcare and increasing your mental
health capacity and a lot ofpeople.
They are not resonant withinthemselves and it becomes very

(58:03):
obvious when you're doing thatwork, when you interact with
people who are just not there.
It's like, oh, you're notconnected to yourself.
You don't spend you talk aboutmirror work.
You don't spend any timelooking at your own fucking
eyeballs in the mirror andthat's why you act like that.
And that's why you act like that, and that's why you'll never,
ever.
You're not seeing the gates,you're not seeing the kingdom,

(58:27):
because you haven't done yourmirror work, they check it.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
Mirror work, not free .

Speaker 2 (58:33):
No, sorry, Down you go.
Mirror work none for you.
Sorry, down you go.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
Imagine, imagine.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
I think, as I you know most of my work has been in
mental health.
I've taken specific breaks.
I think the work that you do isawesome.
I think your entire likeframing is like.
I think it's so cool.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
That's wild.
Sometimes I think it's cool too, and other times I'm like you
should have baked cakes girl.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
I don't know if I'm like I should have been an
accountant.
I should have just sucked upthe classwork at the time I was
meant to do it and gotten my CPAand called it a fucking day
yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
I do think that because I've seen what it's like
to work in mental health as aBlack person, as a Black woman.
It's really interesting becauseyou also see how Black people
are treated so much differentlyand that fight is different.
Like I can, I worked at oneplace Can you give an example?

Speaker 2 (59:33):
Yeah, like, let's hear an example.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
I sure can I worked at one mental health facility
for teenagers which trulychanged my life.
I worked there two yearsbecause I was a two years per
mental health, because I wantedto keep learning.
It truly changed my life.
But I would see children whowere going through whatever kids
go and just destroy whole roomsand they'd be like it's okay,

(59:54):
steven, we'll get you intosession.
There was one child who he hada lot of.
He had a lot of struggles, hehad a lot of trauma.
He was being raised by hisgrandmother.
At this point she was the sweetblack woman was just like I just
need help.
And most of the staff was blackand brown.
We're like girl, let's, how dowe help?
Right, and her grandson gotupset and he grabbed the TV and

(01:00:15):
broke it Like he threw the TV.
Mind you, this TV has beentossed and tussled and broken
and replaced by other children.
As soon as he did this, theywere like he's dangerous, we've
got to get him out of here.
And the way the Black staffrallied and said absolutely not.
Did he still get removed?
Yes, but he also needed ahigher level of care, yeah, yeah

(01:00:39):
.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
But not because he was black.

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
Right, but not suddenly, because now he's
dangerous, when I swear to you,48 hours before, someone else,
without being black, did thesame thing and they got him
support and did not move to kickhim out, even the ways that we
try to get help and existence.
And let's, let's take it backto the early 2020s, george Floyd

(01:01:02):
yeah, the summer of black deathis what I call it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
It was a summer of black death.
A lot of black people died.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
The way them comments were like they deserve it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
Niggas, black, this, black that, and then on top of
that, when there's, like literalvideo of this man basically
being assaulted by a policeofficer.

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
I went viral oh.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
God, that's like my worst fucking nightmare bitch.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
I hope I don't.
Oh, but wait, Wait while I went, because I don't know if you
also remember, around that timelater in the summer there was a
lot of Black people suddenlybeing lynched, yeah, and they're
like these are all suicides.
And I said absolutely the fucknot.
I said one.
That's not how Black peoplecommit suicide, it's not like
the history and it's surely notlynching.

(01:01:48):
So I made a post and it wasdifferent lynches with people's
names and people were like howdare you do this?
Predominantly white, why?
would you say this these peopleblah blah blah, and I said you
could be mad if you want, but ifyou don't want to have, why
would that make someone upset?
I'm a liar, because you knowwhat that is.

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
It's pointing back to how racism is still thriving
and active again work downtownexists I know we brought this up
a little bit earlier, but Iwould just love to like just
quickly double click on the ideaof a sundown town and how
specifically yes, tap, tap to,to, to mental health and

(01:02:29):
blackness, and how we show upliterally in the world.
So for anyone who doesn't, tellpeople what that is yeah, for
anyone who doesn't know, asundown town is.
It's literally a town whereyou're not supposed to be after
sundown if you're black.
And they exist all over thecountry, they exist all over the
world and the idea of them wasthat, like if you were a black
person that was working in thecity limits or working in a

(01:02:50):
certain neighborhood or whateverduring the day, you had to
better get your ass back towherever the fuck you came from
by the time the sun went down,otherwise there was going to be
trouble for you, and thattrouble could include anything
from a lynching assault, murder,bodies thrown in lakes, rivers,
swamps, etc.
And people think that this islike.
People tend to think that again, oh, that stuff only happens in

(01:03:10):
Mississippi and Alabama andGeorgia.
Burbank, california, is the sundowntown Alabama, georgia,
burbank, california, is asundown town.
Hawthorne, which is now apredominantly black and brown
city.
Sundown town Compton Compton,as in straight out of, used to
be a sundown town, linwood, allof these places.
My parents, my dad, moved toLos Angeles, loma.

Speaker 1 (01:03:33):
Linda.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
Loma Linda is still a sundown Loma Linda, Redlands,
still scares me.
So my dad's family moved to LosAngeles from Cologne, Panama,
after a couple of stopovers inlike Texas, I think, in Idaho,
in the early sixties, early tomid sixties.
So it was right after the civilcivil rights act had just
passed and they lived, I lived,very close to where they.

(01:03:54):
I live in West Adams, LosAngeles, and I live very close
to where they.
I live in West Adams, LosAngeles, and I live very close
to where my dad grew up, just alittle bit further South, South
LA used to be whites only, LikeI'm talking in the hundreds, I'm
talking off of Halldale,Western Avenue, Vermont, these
North and South.
Anyone who lives in LA knowsthese North and Southern uh
boundaries, uh streets that arenow known for like not being

(01:04:16):
great neighborhoods and arebeing gentrified, re-gentrified,
really.
But they were.
They were walking around, yeah,walking around, looking for
places to live and wouldn't seeliteral whites, only signs on
the lawn in Compton, California,and Hawthorne, California, and
Linwood, where literally thereis now a prison.
So it's interesting to me thedynamic of denial that you're

(01:04:40):
speaking about.
I was like, well, and talkingabout things that are racist and
talking about racist action andtalking about racism is often
viewed, I think, by whiteness asworse than actually being
racist.
As long as you're like, as longas you're like chill about your
racism, then like we don't haveto really bring it up.

(01:05:01):
But that again it ties intoideas, the ideas of
microaggression, and not talkingabout it is what's allowing it
to continue.
Because if it makes youuncomfortable to think about you
know your mom being in one ofthose black and white photos
screaming at someone.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
That's why they don't want to talk about it.
Cause, let's look at it, itwasn't that long ago.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
It wasn't, yeah, yeah .
So it's just, and to me it'slike I experienced a lot of like
terminal frustration with thiscause.
I don't think it'll change inour lifetime and systemically,
we are all so trained to likeavoid the landmines that for

(01:05:41):
people like me and maybe you,when you're in these spaces and
you're like I've literally beenin work meetings and seen
content that was being reviewed,assets that are being shown and
been like who looked at this?
That's literally racist andpeople and people like, like.
But I'm like why?

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
is it more shocking that I said that this is racist
than you?
The fact that they'd be shockedis the most my favorite part.
I'm like are you serious, areyou?

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
So there was.
So I worked at um.
It was basically like a startup.
I want to say this was like2013, 2014.
So at this point it's been 10years.
But it was again me and oneother black woman in the space
Um, and we had we.
We were both PR people.
So you know, they wereconfusing us all day long.
And, by the way, we looknothing alike, like we are.
We look nothing alike, actnothing alike.

(01:06:30):
When I tell you, I got an emailone time from I think he was on
the finance team and was likehey, you and I had a meeting
last week about X, y, z thingand I just want to follow up and
ask you for a little bit moredocumentation.
I said I'm going to stop youright there.
My guess is that you probablyhave this meeting with this
other person.
I'm going to loop her in.
We're actually two differentblack women, but thank you for

(01:06:51):
your note.
And people on that chain werelike but I'm like, why is it
okay for him to literallyconfuse me with another black
person and send a note detailingtheir entire conversation?
But I can't point it out.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
Because now you're being difficult, you're being
mean.
You're being a bully.

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
This still happens to me and I'll be that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
The audacity might be like oh my God, you look like
so-and-so.
No, I don't, I have been likewalked over and I'm like'm, and
me and her have looked at eachother and been like where, it's
because we're black, it'sbecause we both got short hair.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
There's a lot of people that's black with short
hair, but also like, and again,no, no insult to the woman that
I get compared to becausethey're quite often yeah,
exactly, it's like take theextra six seconds.
I actually saw a study thatbasically said that white people
can't tell black people apart,like there's something in their
brain that does not allow themto process when, when black

(01:07:48):
people don't look like otherblack people see this and be
like which one is shimadika,which one's sarissa in this?

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
I don't know.
It's so ridiculous that youknow it's an everyday life
navigation.
Then, when you just try to makemoney because we like nice
things, yeah, and the thingsyou've studied for?
do you got bills to pay?
And I like nice things, yeah,um, like, what has it looked

(01:08:18):
like for you to not leave thesespaces?
Like, how have you maintainedyour mental health?
How have you maintained yourlivelihood outside of work?
How have you maintained yourrelationships to allow you to
exist in these spaces that,again, essentially weren't built
for us.
They just had to let us inbecause we're baddies and we
just know a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
Yeah, listen, it is what it is.
I don't make the rules, okay,you guys did it's actually.
I love this question becauseit's a process and it's a
journey and I think things havechanged a little bit.
Like, even in my lifetimethey've changed.
A lot of the jobs that I've hadthroughout the course of my

(01:08:59):
career did not exist when I wasgraduating from college, like
they, just like I literally hadto be at the tip of the spear
again first and only.
I don't want to do that anymore.
But because you know, evenwithin the last, again 20 years
of a career, you have people whoare like, oh, if you can do it,
then I see that modeled.
There is something that isgratifying and fortifying about

(01:09:20):
that, because I didn't have thatexample necessarily like
walking into these spaces.
I go out of my way and make ita point to have those
interactions again, inparticular with younger Black
women.
I have a mentee that I've beenworking with since 2020.
And when I met her she was 26,27 years old.
Now she's, you know, now she'sa woman in her thirties and

(01:09:43):
she's like, you know, when yousaid X, y, z all that time ago,
I'm realizing like, oh, this iswhat that looks like.
Cause I think again, if younever, if you never had the
example, and even if you knowyou went to the right schools
and you did all these things andyou've had experience
navigating these spaces, eachenvironment that you're in is
going to be a different sort ofexperience.
So when I think about you knowthe question through the lens of

(01:10:07):
okay, so I'm in the space nowand I'm having to learn how to
navigate it and duck and dodgeaccordingly, how do I, how do I
show up comprehensively, how doI not let this consume me?
And to go back to theconversation around mental
health, personally I work outand I have an incredible group

(01:10:28):
of friends.
I have an incredible communitythat I've cultivated over many,
many years.
I age again, getting older,recognizing when something is
not worth your time, whensomething cannot be helped, and
being able to release itgracefully is a big thing that I
think therapy helps with.
Um, to kind of close the loopon the conversation I was having

(01:10:49):
my therapist earlier, she wastalking about this again.
We're talking about this ideaof perfection and being able to
show up and make mistakeseffectively, and she was telling
me about a book she read byStephen Hawking I can't remember
the name of it, but shebasically said that this book, I
mean she talks about you knowthe universe and physics and all

(01:11:09):
this stuff and evolutionarytheory and how, like, without
essentially an error in thechain link, you don't get
evolution If everything isworking as exactly as it should.
If you're maintaining thestatus quo, then you never get
to evolve.
So without these experiencesthat I've had that do not feel
good, feel bad at the time, feellike setbacks, et cetera, we

(01:11:33):
would not be learning thelessons that we're learning and
I think again very scorpionic,but I think that is an essential
part of this existence.
Generosity and gratitude arehuge parts of this.
Believe it or not, I givefreely.
It's something that I enjoydoing, I love being of service.
But but the asterisk on that Imean the context that you and I

(01:12:00):
met.
I think about that night often,and at this point it was years
ago, and all the people thatI've met and come across from
that night have remarked to methat that experience was so
unusual.
It's so rare that you get to bein a space like that with
people like that, and what'sunderstood does not need to be
explained and whenever I show up, I try to make that the default

(01:12:22):
vibration.
Like, I understand you, I seeyou, so you do not have to
explain yourself to me unlessyou feel compelled to, unless
you have something that you wantto share.
I think, um, showing up againwith that generosity and that
gratitude, it's a flywheel.
So the more grateful I am foreverything that happens to and
with and by and for me, good andbad, the more I will receive

(01:12:45):
goodness and abundance andgrowth, et cetera, which are all
things that I'm activelyseeking in my life.
The other thing is that, justfundamentally and functionally,
I think the meaning of life isto live it.
So you have to kind of approachthings with both hands open and
a level of enthusiasm and gustowhich looks different for

(01:13:06):
everybody that you know.
You wake up, you face the dayand you're going to get through
it.
And again, I think that's a bigpart of mental health too,
because sometimes when you're inthose valleys, you do want to
give up.
You're like what if I just laidhere until the Lord comes and
gets me?

Speaker 1 (01:13:26):
Whisper something nice to me, something it's true
yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:32):
So I think all those things are important.
And then again, likefunctionally, like, of course, I
like a good massage, I, likeyou know, I take good care of my
skin and like I make sure Itake care of my skin too.

Speaker 1 (01:13:40):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
It's also part of you .
Yeah, I mean, you're glowingright now, I see, I see, I see
the glow, but all those thingsare important.
But I think sometimes we getbubble bath, or I need, you know
, I need to work out, et cetera.
All of those things are part ofit.
But again, the real work comesin when you're able to sort of

(01:14:04):
integrate those things andinternalize the feeling that
they give you.
Also, again, therapy is.
I advocate for therapy.
Finding the right therapist iskey.

Speaker 1 (01:14:11):
That part.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
But anytime that you can talk to an, in theory,
objective third party yourfriends are not your therapist.
Stop asking your friends foradvice, Literally Like unless
it's like a one-off thing andyou're just like looking for
confirmation of your own ideasor perhaps a slightly different
perspective.
No, your, your girlfriends,don't care about your man.

(01:14:32):
Don't take it.
If you're, if you've been, ifyou've been with your husband
for 20 years, like I have, whyare you taking advice from your
single girlfriends or vice versa?
You know what I mean.
Look at people who have whatyou want or have been trained to
look at your situation and talkto them.
Stop asking broke bitches foradvice if you are trying to get
money.

Speaker 1 (01:14:53):
Clearly they don't know.
They also don't know, theydon't know, and that's not.

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):
That's not to disrespect a broke bitch,
because, listen, broke bitcheshave their place too.
But why would I?
Why would I ask a broke bitchif I want to get money?
She doesn't know, and that's nodiss to her.

Speaker 1 (01:15:05):
Like, if you want to get money, talk to a bitch who's
got money that's fair you mightlearn something if you could
give tips to like young blackwomen that are navigating new
workspaces.
That like got their dream joband now they're like, uh, like
there's a whole movie on huluabout a black.

(01:15:28):
I gotta watch it.
It's like a black woman that'sin an office just come out new
black woman comes in.
Yeah, I think about like ohit's a horror movie.

Speaker 2 (01:15:34):
It's a.
It's a horror movie.
The other black girl right isthat what it's called?
Yes, yeah, I haven't watched ityet.
I might need to watch that.
I feel, like it might betriggering.

Speaker 1 (01:15:42):
honestly, Honestly Okay, well, we're going to stay
positive here.
Yes, yes, Okay, okay, okay, Ifyou could give any young Black
woman a tip, as they're findingtheir dream job finding their
dream job getting in the spacesand or just going to a job where
they deserve it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:04):
But there's people there that make them feel like
they don't.
Imposter syndrome yeah, I thinkthe standard advice for these
kinds of things is sointeresting because it's like
you deserve it, you, you earnedyour spot there and like, yeah,
all that, sure it's not.
And also like laugh, love.
But it's, and it's hard tointernalize that when you don't
have Sure it's not.
And also like Live, laugh, love.
And it's hard to internalizethat when you don't have that
feeling.
It's hard to like imaginefeeling like you deserve
something when you literallynothing in the environment
indicates that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:25):
Doesn't want you there.

Speaker 2 (01:16:27):
Here's what I'll say is and this is I'm caveating
this, I'm putting an asterisk onit the way that I live my life
is not for everyone.
You really do have to bewilling to take the dubs and the
L's in the same, with, with,with stride.
The more I've been able tostand up for myself in these
environments, the better myexperience has gotten, and

(01:16:51):
sometimes that means needing toleave the environment.

Speaker 1 (01:16:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:55):
I would never, at this stage of my life,
prioritize the function of work,meaning like the status, the
title, the identity that Iassociate with whatever space
I'm in over feeling good aboutbeing in it.
So if every day I'm in thisspace and it makes me feel like

(01:17:18):
I want to die, I gotta go, Igotta cut it loose.
Um, if someone talks crazy toyou, it is your human, it is a
human right.
And again I this againcontroversial.
Rules are rules are fake.
They're made up up.
Who said that I have to doanything you tell me to do?

(01:17:39):
The idea of like no, but forreal, though, like who?
Like the idea of like peoplegetting in trouble for something
?
And again, like obviously thereare laws.
Like you shouldn't still lie,kill objectively.
I think there's exceptions toevery rule, but let's just say
that those are the table stakes.
But when someone's like I don'twant someone to be mad at me, I

(01:17:59):
don't want to get in trouble,fuck that.
You know what I mean.
Like you can get mad and we canfight about it and then we can
move on.
Like everyone in here is agrownup, as an adult, the amount
of overt conflict I've had inworkplaces.
Again, I cannot, in goodconscious, recommend this
necessarily to everyone, butwhat I'm saying is, if you find

(01:18:21):
yourself in a situation where,well, like, if you find yourself
in situations where, like, yourautonomy is being stepped on,
you're being mistreated on afundamentally human level, first
of all, document it and snitch.
Get yourself a lawyer andsnitch, because those
settlements are no joke, girl,you get the right one.

Speaker 1 (01:18:33):
You know what Can we pause real quick?

Speaker 2 (01:18:35):
Yeah, Because I think because, and I hate snitches,
by the way but there's somecontext when it's necessary.

Speaker 1 (01:18:42):
But we live in LA and we are a.
We will sue you, happy kind ofplace A hundred percent A
hundred percent and I want Blackwomen to know as I know
documentation works.
Take it to court, because I didhave to get some lady fired
because she tried me and Idocumented everything.

(01:19:02):
They were like oh my God, we'venever.
Nah, because she's not about togo and make it up like I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:19:06):
Delulu.

Speaker 1 (01:19:07):
Correct, so document.

Speaker 2 (01:19:09):
That's what I just want people to document.
You have a fucked upconversation with someone.
They want to talk to you intext.
They want to talk to you async.
Screenshot screenshot screenshotscreenshot send an email, be
like per our conversation.
Open up a Google doc, write thedate, write the subject
document bullet points.

(01:19:29):
Keep it short and sweet,factual.
Only you will.
You might save your life, youmight make some money off of it.
So there's that part.
But there's also the part whereit's like again, and this is
some of this is just endemic tome, some of this is just my
personality.
But I had a boss in my one of myvery early jobs as work at an
agency and he was a white gayman and he just was kind of like
a dick, like it was like, youknow, and that was like the era
of like.
If you worked at a talentagency, your, your, your boss

(01:19:52):
was throwing staplers at you,like it was giving devil wears
product, but for no reasonreally.
And he would come for me quitea bit Like because I.
The other thing is like.
But again, and I think when youshow up with your whole chest
people, there's like just aninstinct to like, try to.
I have to, I have to break herdown, I have to like, like, like
they're breaking a book orsomething.

(01:20:12):
But he had no idea who he was.
Yeah, he had no idea what hewas doing.
So there was one instance whereI wrote a newsletter, like I
drafted a newsletter for one ofour clients, and he gave me
feedback that the newsletter wasbizarre and upsetting Like he's
.
He called my writing and youknow what he might've been right
.
He said this is bizarre andupsetting.
You were thinking about it.

(01:20:34):
I'm like why would you say thatJust give me the edits and
let's keep it moving?
Anyway, I said.
I replied back and I was likeyou're, this is crazy.
I can't believe you talk topeople like this and I'll do it.
I'll do it one-on-one and Iwill do it the email chain the
same way.
I was like listen, I thinkyou've mistaken me for the other
black woman that works here.
There's really only two of us,so you should be able to tell us
the part.
But sometimes people are afraidto say things in front of an

(01:20:57):
audience.
I guess the long and short ofwhat I was saying is that you
need to sack up, don't be afraidto use your voice.
You're not going to go to jailfor doing it.
Well, you might, because you'reBlack, but it won't be because
you did it.
It'll be because life is unfair.
But you have to be brave enoughand love yourself enough to

(01:21:19):
stand up for yourself, and indoing that again, you set an
example for others who are inthe space.
I can't even tell you how manytimes people are like, wow, I
really chicken shit, becauselike if you saw some fucked up
shit happening and you didn'tsay anything about it, I see you
, but you being empowered againlifts the tide.
It empowers the wholeenvironment and, as I said, we

(01:21:42):
made this up.
You don't have to stay inplaces that make you feel like
shit.
You might need to find anotherjob first, but let them know in
the meantime, while I'm stillhere, we're going to regard each
other with a basic level ofhuman decency and respect, and
there's really no other option.
I'm not going to tolerate it,and you can do that in ways that
are professional andstraightforward and kind and
using language that doesn't havecuss words in it or whatever it

(01:22:05):
is.
I'm excellent at doing that,but I also need to let people
know that I am not the one, thetwo or the three.

Speaker 1 (01:22:13):
Delivery.
I knew this was going to be agood time.
I just knew my morning A 9 amcall time.
We showed up today.
We were on Just magical.
That's how you start the day myprotein shake.

Speaker 2 (01:22:28):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:22:30):
So I have one last question to ask all my guests
and truly it's because I'm nosyand I want to see what's
happening what is the wildestthing in the last two weeks that
someone has either texted ordm'd you and you can define wild
okay, I was like, because myquestion was how fun?
Answers whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:22:49):
Everyone has had different answers and I'd love
all of them so, my friends and I, we do a lot of exploration and
discussion around pop culture,um, uh oh it's a lot happening
right now.

Speaker 1 (01:23:00):
I'm like what is this ?

Speaker 2 (01:23:02):
I'm like what do you mean?
Does that have to be personal?
I just think like so again,we're recording this during
Black History Month.
Drake's uh, he released a video.

Speaker 1 (01:23:12):
I'm not going to get into it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):
I'm already out that somebody sent me the churro
where someone oh, no, I just sothat comes up, and we suspect
that he leaked it himself,because there's no absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:23:27):
How does that get absolutely?

Speaker 2 (01:23:29):
he was in the room alone.
I don't.
Who did you send that to?
It's giving me agita.
Um, that's pretty wild.
And then, just like everyone'sgoing through something right
now, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:23:42):
It's an election year .

Speaker 2 (01:23:44):
Yeah, people are experiencing there's like a.
I think the illusion has beenfractured, the illusion has been
shattered.
We're looking at celebrity indifferent ways.
We're looking at you know, theGrammys just happened.
People are like what the fuckwas that?
And I think when we think aboutlike wild, it's like oh, that's

(01:24:07):
unbelievable.
But something unbelievablehappens every single day and I'm
a pretty hard person to shock,but it's really just.
I think it's just a sign of thetime.
So really my question or mystatement would be if you're not
getting something, you know atleast once a week, that's wild,

(01:24:27):
whether it's in a personal lifewhere it's like I can't believe
this bitch said this thing to me.
Also, my life on purpose is kindof boring, so my friends and I
are all very normal.
On purpose is kind of boring, somy friends and I are all very
normal, but like I have a again,I have a girlfriend that, like
her sister-in-law um, and justfor context, this is a, this is
a Brown family.
They're not white she marriedinto well, not fully white, I
think, maybe dad, dad is white,but basically my friend is

(01:24:51):
married to the brother of, uh,this man who married a white
woman and she's pregnant rightnow and she essentially is at
war with her mother-in-law, withtheir mother-in-law, and they
live in a different state andthey drove like some baby stuff

(01:25:12):
over because she's due prettysoon, I think.
But she basically was likecalling her mother-in-law petty
and telling her that she didn'twant to deal with her like shit
and just like like cussing outthis woman who has basically
gone above and beyond to kind ofmake this experience a first
grandbaby.
So everyone's like reallyexcited and to me that's wild,
because how do you marry into afamily and then proceed to cuss

(01:25:34):
them out?

Speaker 1 (01:25:35):
Do you know what I mean?
Like how do you wouldn't be myfamily?

Speaker 2 (01:25:39):
Let me tell you so like in terms of the definition
of wild.
Something wild happens for meon an almost daily basis, but I
would have to say my number onething is is Drake's lead to nude
?
Because I actually can'tbelieve that he wasn't too
ashamed to do that.
To me that's wild.

Speaker 1 (01:26:02):
It's wild that he lacked the level of shame that
should have been present to tohave that appear on the internet
.
I blame megan talking aboutbbls.
I think that was a response hedidn't have time to make a rap,
he said I got really honest.

Speaker 2 (01:26:14):
Nikki minaj and her fans, I mean again.
I could go on all day wilds.

Speaker 1 (01:26:19):
She let her fans write that song it's really just
again.

Speaker 2 (01:26:24):
I think there's been a fracture in the matrix and
it's going to get worse beforeit gets better.
But worse is like again.
Worse doesn't worse objectivelymeans bad, but like it doesn't
mean it's going to get worse foryou, it's just going to get
more wild.
Essentially, it's going to getmore shocking before it gets
less shocking.
I think We'll see how it goes.

Speaker 1 (01:26:46):
I think that's where we end it.
Buckle up everyone.
Sarissa has predicted that it'sabout to get wild.
You lucky she didn't pull outno cards and shit.

Speaker 2 (01:26:55):
You are lucky.
Actually, before we go do,should we do a little tarot pull
.
Oh my god, hold on hold on duh.

Speaker 1 (01:27:09):
Wait, not duh, not duh, absolutely I always have.
I'm so glad you asked.

Speaker 2 (01:27:11):
I always have a deck handy.
I always have a deck nearby um,you need to read somebody.
Listen or check the vibes.
We've already had theconversation a lot of times.
Before I start theseconversations, I like to pull a
card just to kind of see whatthe thematic is.
Ace of Cups Reverse Ace energyis enthusiastic.

(01:27:33):
It's a little aggressive.
It's like warrior energy, likeyoung soldier energy, like
battlefield energy.
Ace of Cups Cups is a watersuit.
So basically we're being.
I think maybe the negativepurview of this is emotionally

(01:27:53):
aggressive, but the positive isemotionally honest, emotionally
raw, emotionally straightforward.

Speaker 1 (01:28:00):
I'll receive that for us.

Speaker 2 (01:28:01):
Which is fitting because the literal name of the
podcast is Trauma Queen.
So, ace of Cups, let's talkabout it.

Speaker 1 (01:28:10):
This was so fun.

Speaker 2 (01:28:12):
Thank you for putting me on.

Speaker 1 (01:28:13):
This is great, this is what I knew it was going to
be.
Okay, if you want, where canthe girls nims, theys, hims find
you?
You don't have to.
You can say, nowhere, I don'tcare, I am.

Speaker 2 (01:28:26):
You can Google me to a certain extent.
My Instagram is r to the issa.
That's a modification on a J.
I was a big Jay-Z fan when theinternet first started back in
the day and I just never changedthe name I probably should have
.
I probably should change myname.
I was going to give my LinkedIn, but don't look for me on

(01:28:46):
LinkedIn, you can probably findme.
I know you're a grownup.
Yeah, I was like don't actually, don't look for me on LinkedIn.
Instagram is fine.
R to the ISSA I can't get you ajob.
Don't look at my Instagram.
I can't help you.
Do not message me.
I don't, I can't do it, I can'tdo it.

Speaker 1 (01:29:02):
Yeah, I just hope y'all all take some gems from
this and, like I always say,take what feels good for you,
leave the rest, but also you'rewelcome.

Speaker 2 (01:29:09):
You are welcome, congratulations you.

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