The Trauma Within Navigating Purity Culture and Self-Acceptance W/ Jess Ambrose

Do you have any questions, any comments about the episode? Jimanekia would love to hear from you!

Have you ever felt trapped by the expectations and dogmas imposed on you by your upbringing? Join us for an eye-opening conversation with Jess Ambrose, who courageously shares her journey from evangelical Christianity to becoming a self-accepting podcaster. Jess opens up about the mental health battles she's faced along the way, the importance of centering herself amidst external pressures, and her heartfelt bond with the host, forged through the podcasting world.

What happens when purity culture shapes your views on body, sexuality, and personal worth? Jess candidly discusses the stringent moral expectations from her childhood environment, and how they clashed with her home life and queer identity. This conversation highlights the long-lasting impacts of such teachings, shedding light on the struggles of growing up with conflicting messages about sexuality and self-worth. Jess's story emphasizes the importance of supportive communities and the liberating process of unlearning harmful beliefs.

Tune in to hear how Jess found joy and peace in the acceptance of uncertainty. We explore the transformative power of open dialogues and the emotional growth that comes from stepping away from conservative religious contexts. From the influence of impactful podcasts to the joy of finding simplicity and presence in daily life, Jess's journey is a testament to the empowering process of shedding old beliefs and embracing a healthier self-identity. Don't miss this heartfelt episode as we unpack life changes through meaningful conversations and personal growth.

Thank you all for listening. Set a boundary with yourself this week, set a boundary with someone else. If someone else does not respect that boundary. LET THEM LOOSE YOU! Stay hydrated internally and externally. We do not have an ashy family.


IG: @The_Trauma_Within
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@thetraumawithin
Jimanekia Ig: @Jimanekia

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:19):
Jess Ambrose is an ex-evangelical, ex-wardrobe
stylist who took a turn in herlife after she got pregnant and
then dove into the world ofpodcasting as one of the hosts
of Chatty Rob's, where theydiscuss everything from
spiritual deconstruction toreality television.
Jess now hosts a podcast withher husband and partner of 18
years called your Mom and Dad,and is still on a journey as she

(00:42):
shares with her audience abouther spirituality, mental health
and more Y'all.
This talk was so interestingand I really hope that you get a
peek into something maybe youdon't really know about.
So buckle up.
We got Jess.
Y'all, y'all.

(01:02):
This is this first off.
I'm super excited to have thisconversation is the bio speaks
for itself, the intro, but thishuman and I have such an
interesting relationship andconversations and I'm I'm
excited for this one for y'all,and so we've heard the bio.
My first question for everyoneis always the same and people

(01:23):
always make a face but who areyou?
That's a great question.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
I'm like we're going free very sensitive, I like
people, I like creativity, Ilike human energy and I think,

(01:55):
by nurture I have become someonewho struggles with tendencies
of perfection, with peoplepleasing and holding myself back
, and I am Jess who is, I guess,on this forever journey to try
to get back to my nature and tolearn how to blend all of those

(02:17):
in a good way, or in a way thatmakes me feel good, I should say
.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah, we love centering of self here, because
there's enough people trying tosteal our joy.
So, yay, and I'm so happy to behere with you.
I'm excited.
This is going to be good.
How did we meet?

Speaker 2 (02:36):
So we met via the podcast space because I
discovered you and yourbeautiful soul and self on
Instagram and so we connected onthere and I was like, will you
please come on our podcast,chatty Broads?
And I feel like the moment thatyou entered into the home, I was

(02:57):
just so immediately drawn toyour energy and I just felt I
mean, I know I'm sure you hearthis 24-7 and we can get into
this too but just your calmingenergy, while simultaneously
being this badass who has amillion things that you're doing
and helping and optimizing 24-7.
And so I'm like I love ourconversation and the things that

(03:23):
you brought to our audiencewere so beneficial and helpful
and just meant so much.
But then, personally, outsideof that, then I was like, can I
remain in your sphere at allpossible?
Is that okay?
And, um, you know, I feel likethat's how you and I met and
then since then, you're just oneof those people in my life that

(03:43):
you know.
We see each other often fromafar, on the social media, but
whenever then I'm with you, itfeels like old friend.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
That's how I've always felt I really like my
friends.
They really gas me the fuck up.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well, you should be gassed the fuck up all the time,
because you're one specialhuman being, that's for sure
from one tired bitch to another.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
I see you, um.
I also love your home becauseyou have someone in there that
I'm a huge fan of.
Uh, a little gem that youbirthed.
I'm like, please tell em Amber,I'm her biggest fan always.
Oh my.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
God bless you.
I'm like she will take thatthat human being is.
We were in the store yesterdayand we were just like at the
checkout counter grabbinggroceries and she just looked at
me and she's like, oh God, Ilove myself so much and I'm like
that is what we're looking for,that's what I'm trying to do.

(04:44):
You need to take a class.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
Is she teaching classes?
We need to get into it.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah, I get the classes daily.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
As she's on your mug.
I love this.
What does trauma mean to you?

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Trauma to me.
I mean just the generaldefinition that hits me, and
what it means to me is it'ssomething that's terribly
negative that has happened, anevent or a series of events that
have happened that then have aremaining effect, emotionally
and physically, on future.
You, um, that's how it hits me.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
Yeah, Um, all of my friends that I've asked.
I asked them what do you wantto talk about?
Some people are like ready,I've been waiting for someone to
let me talk about this, andother people are like I don't
know.
You were like religion andpurity culture, Thank you.
I was like cake For the folksthat haven't listened to our

(05:44):
original conversation on chattybroads, go back.
Yeah, because we alsodiscovered that I went to a
christian college.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
You were like what I know, I was like oh, I felt you
from afar I see you, I knew you,I felt, I feel like we can
really just kind of feel theenergy of another it was.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
I always.
I always say that I went to CalBaptist university, my second
where I got my actual degree,and I always say it was the best
information and support I evergot.
But also I was like I don'twant most of this.
This is a lot.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
The perfect, the perfect definition.
Yeah, Because it's, I know formyself.
I'm like, yeah, I learned a lotthere and I'm going to probably
leave a lot of it behind.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, yeah, let's get it.
This is going to be a timeBefore we even really dive in,
as it 'll happen.
What is purity culture forfolks that are like I've seen a
movie, I've heard about it, sure, what the fuck is that?

Speaker 2 (06:41):
So purity culture is, I would say.
You know there's differentforms where it comes in, but I
would say it's very evangelical,typically very evangelical,
focused Christianity and it'sthe need.
They say the need to abstainfrom sex before marriage.
So that's like the broadstrokes, like you're not
sleeping with anybody before youget married to that person.

(07:03):
But what that also then ends upentailing is it has everything
that comes with it that thatspecific community would
consider sexuality contracts,that you will not do anything
sexual with anyone else.

(07:24):
It's very shame focused becausethe energy is simultaneously
don't do this.
But also, once you get married,you better step up and do this.
So it's very confusing to theyouth Also, at least in the
church that I was raised in, itwas extremely oppressive to the

(07:50):
queer community, so that wasn'teven like a question, that was a
no-go.
So anyone with their genderidentity, anyone with their
sexuality, there's no questionsthat you can ask.
And I think, specifically formyself as a woman, one of the
big things was it simultaneouslywas something that you

(08:15):
couldn'testy piece.
You know you're looking atsmall children and saying in my
community it was like you can'twear anything.
That's like showing your bodyat all, like not even your arms.
You're wearing skirts, youcan't wear pants because if you

(08:36):
show anything, you're going tocause a male to stumble sexually
, to stumble sexually.
So there's this pressure ofokay I'm.
I remember being like 10 yearsold and being like I can't ask
any questions about sexuality,but yet I have this backpack of
shame.
I'm wearing that if I show alittle part of me, well, a man

(08:58):
is going to sin, and that ispurity culture to me, fuck me.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
Okay, I'm like, oh God, yay.
So let's pull back a bit.
Who was younger, jess?
Who were you in the church?
What did your church?

Speaker 2 (09:38):
look like.
What was your family like?
Started going to a church.
The church was hyperconservative and from there I
ended up going to a school formost of my life that was part
homeschooler, part-time, smallprivate school.
And that small private schoolwas extremely hyper-focused on

(10:00):
purity culture, extremelyconservative.
Like I was saying, we weren'tallowed to wear pants, like I
had to wear dresses.
I couldn't have anythingshowing my arms.
If I wanted to address an adult, I had to stand up.
It was extremely, extremelystrict, militant to a certain

(10:23):
degree, but what was so strange?
And then the church when I wasreally young was like that too.
But what was interesting for meis that my actual parents, like
my biological parents, wereconservative, but they didn't
hold so tightly to all of thosenarratives At home.

(10:46):
I could ask more questions.
My parents were never like youcan't wear that.
But I was raised in a churchand then a school that was so
shame-filled that I ended up andthat's such an interesting
dynamic to me that I'm like,even though my parents weren't
nearly as strict because of theshame, I'll never forget the day

(11:08):
where I think I was 10 or 11and we were going on vacation
and I had a tankini at the time,a little bit of stomach show
and a spaghetti strap, and Itold my mom we need to go
shopping.
I can't wear this and my mom'slike, why not?
I'm like, well, it's notappropriate.
And I felt a lot of shame.
So I had to then go get thisfull coverage because I felt

(11:29):
shame.
At the school that I wascurrently at and I think, young
me, I was introverted, but Ifelt free and creative and then
in the space that I was in,everything was hyper-focused on

(11:50):
the sin nature that you're asinner, you'll always be a
sinner, by the grace of God.
Hopefully you can get better.
But that was the hyper-fixation.
So anything that I wasinterested in, you know, I
remember bringing Pokemon cardsto school and I got pulled into
the principal's office and it'slike this is evolution, this is

(12:11):
sinful, you cannot have these.
And then it was always madevery public.
So there was just this constantthat that was the narrative
that I was surrounded by.
So sex, it's like having twosides, yes, and it was
interesting because, as I'vebeen thinking about this as I've
gotten older, I'm like, yes, mymom was very conservative at

(12:33):
the time but, like I said, noteven close to what I was dealing
with every day at school or atchurch.
But it's really hit me howpowerful the environment now as
a parent that you put your childin, because it's like, even as
much as I will do my bestparenting, I'm like if I'd be
putting my kiddo in thatenvironment, like I see how it

(12:53):
affected me, even when my momwas like you can have Pokemon
cards, but I was like no, no, Ican't, because when I go to
school it's looked at as sinful,and what child wants to be told
that they're a bad person?
Right?
So I'm like I'm going to avoideverything that they are saying
is bad, because I don't want tobe a bad person, I want to be a

(13:15):
good person.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
Damn.
I also hear like your body wasmade aware to you before you
realized your own body.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yes Well, that's a great way of putting it yes, A
thousand percent.
And it was like I said.
It was strange because it'sthis simultaneous like hyper
fixation on sex and the body,but also don't have any sexual
thoughts or don't even thinkabout your body.
Sexual thoughts or don't eventhink about your body, even in

(13:50):
adulthood.
The place where I came fromit's like masturbation is a sin.
So there was then that deepshame attached to your body.
You can't talk about it, youcan't think about it.
And it was so interesting nowlooking back and I'm sure you
can resonate with this one thatoften, when there'd be any sort
of groups where they would breakin, you know, break the body of
the men are over here and thewomen are over here, and on the

(14:13):
men's side they talk aboutpornography and on the women's
side and abstaining frompornography, and on the women's
side they talk about how theseare all the things you can do
that will stumble your brotherin Christ, aka these men.
So even on the you know thequote unquote women's side, the
conversation about sex wasn'teven happening.

(14:33):
It was just more like your bodyis this temptation station for
everyone.
So don't look at it, don't talkabout it, avoid it.

Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah, it's's like how do I avoid myself?
You want me to just like sleepor what's.
What are the options here?
And also it's like in my brainI also hear you're so fucking
powerful that you are going todistract this person.
Because you're so powerful,they just cannot not want your

(15:07):
body.
It's like what.
I'm a child so.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
I'm literally a child .
Yeah, did sex, ed what?

Speaker 1 (15:15):
Exist.
No, no.
So how do you prepare to havesex later?

Speaker 2 (15:21):
You know, for me it varied for everyone.
Um, sex ed did not exist.
I never was in a single sex edclass.
Um, I harvested informationwhere I could.
That's how, how I figured itout.
Um, and what I figured out, bythe way, was often quite wrong

(15:44):
and often quite patriarchal.
Let's just put it that way.
Because you know, I would go, Iget in my car once and this is
like again, this is through mywhole life.
So even when I'm 16, I'mgetting in my car to drive and I
would turn on morning talkradio and they'd be, you know,
talking about sex and I'm likeharvesting information from
Loveline.

(16:05):
You know, that's where I'mlearning certain things.
And then, you know, every oncein a while you'd have a kid that
you were exposed to who couldexplain certain things.
And then, thank God, when theinternet came around, I could
kind of do some research.
But again, but again, when itcame down to it, I felt very, I

(16:47):
did feel very blessed in thesituation that, because my
parents weren't, like I said,nearly as hyper conservative,
that when I was older I couldhave a little bit more of a
conversation with my family,with my mother.
But most of my friendsliterally walked into marriages
not knowing anything about sexand, more importantly, not
knowing anything about their ownboundaries and their bodies and
what they wanted or desired,and then double down with that,
like I talked about, too, any ofmy friends who were part of the

(17:08):
queer community.
That was just a no-go.
So then that's being repressed.
I know for myself, I'm bisexualand that wasn't anything that I
ever had the opportunity toexplore because it was just not
allowed.
Yeah, you know that's so shit.

Speaker 1 (17:28):
There's no like no, no, it's just like I love that
we're able to.
You know I love laughingthrough trauma but it's same.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
It helps heal me personally absolutely.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
There's also like we're laughing, but there's so
many people that are stilldeeply within purity culture and
religion, growing up inreligion for yourself after this
.
Were there folks within yourchurch or around you that
weren't necessarily as connectedto purity culture, or were they

(18:02):
one in the same?

Speaker 2 (18:04):
I'd say the school that I went to when I was
homeschooled it was everyone,but definitely the churches that
I went to, there were peoplethat were just Sunday goers and
just enjoyed the message.
The way I was raised is we werealways extremely involved in

(18:25):
the church and were in likeleadership positions, and so at
a very young age, I was takingon certain leadership positions
as well, um, like worship team,you know, leading Bible studies,
and all this at a at a veryyoung age, like even in high
school.
Um, so I had to live by adifferent standard.

(18:46):
So there were definitely peoplearound me where they weren't
living the same way via purityculture, like I was.
And it's so funny because Iremember so many people who were
in similar positions as mebeing like, wow, we got to pray
for them.
You know they're living in sin,da, da, da.

(19:07):
And I remember we were justwatching and being like wow,
that seems nice.
But I'm just trying to put on asmile.
I do want to try it.
No, it's just like I have somany questions.
You know that's where I wouldget some of my information from
too.
When I'd have like a one-on-one, I wouldn't be sitting with
someone and being like well,this is what you should do
instead I'd be like.
So tell me about your nightlast night.

(19:27):
How was that date Interesting?

Speaker 1 (19:31):
What was dating like?
Did you get to date?

Speaker 2 (19:34):
I did Um in high school.
I dated.
I actually dated someone for awhile who was on the worship
team, and that was again.
My parents were more flexible,so we were dating, but it was,
like you know, hyper strictrules around what we could do.

(19:55):
There was no physicality thatwas allowed and the parents were
pretty much always around.
But what was interesting aboutthat person?
I dated and, wow, that was ajourney.
He is gay and so we were datingfor numerous months and one day

(20:24):
I ended up finding out, viasomething that happened with him
, that he was gay.
And so we then had thisconversation where we sat down
and he was like I'm in aleadership position, I can't be
exposed.
I don't know how I feel aboutall this.
Will you not say anything?
And I loved him so much, Iadore him, and so I was like I
won't tell anyone.
So we kept dating for a whilejust to protect him so that he

(20:50):
didn't get exposed at the church, and then eventually he removed
himself and bless him.
Now is like living thisbeautiful life.
And he left and I just adorehim.
He left and I just adore him,but he was a gateway for me to.
Really, I didn't know anyonewho was out at the time and he

(21:12):
wasn't but he was open with meand so that was a huge window
for me to see the pain, like theunbelievable pain that he was
going through, this beautifulhuman being who did so many
amazing things for people, andjust how he was feeling and and
and how he had to walk throughthat in secrecy.
Um, but then I ended up I didstart dating my husband my now

(21:36):
husband in high school andyou've been together that long
yes, can you believe?
it's literally been like 19years.
We had like one break for ayear and a half you're like dibs
, let's just stay seriously keepit.
I'm like I'm gonna keep them.
Um, but when we started dating,we were, yes, dating, but there

(21:59):
were so many rules, and notonly that, there were constant
check-ins about very personalthings with the families.
So it was like, you know, youare a grown person at this point
and the family is like we'dhave to sit down.

(22:20):
What have you done sexuallylately?
Like I mean, it was that was,were you forthcoming most of the
time?
Yeah, sometimes I was like no,I can't, it's too much, I'm
gonna, we're gonna getabsolutely cooked for this, but
we'd give them little.

(22:40):
We'd give them little likepartial truths.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, wow how did that feel?
To like I am independent, Ihave this person and I'm trying
to build a relationship orwhatever.
And then they're like great,great, great, come tell us about
it, sit down, let's get ourspotlight your asses up,
literally, literally.

Speaker 2 (22:57):
It felt extremely violating.
Yeah, it felt like extremelyviolating.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
It felt like you know okay.
So you the other day sent methis and I almost, my heart
almost exploded.
You sent me the song fromMaddie Zahm.
You Might Not Like Her, but IDo.
Oh, and I'm not joking.
You sent that to me as I waswalking into a Maddie Zahm

(23:25):
concert.
It was like it was my spiritualmoment.
I was like this is.
I was looking around for you.
I'm like are you here?
It was a moment, but there isthere is a line in that song
where she says one day you'lllearn to keep your own secrets.
And I'm telling you, when Ilistened to that song for the

(23:49):
first time and I heard that, Iwas like dry, heaving, crying,
and it hit something that Ihadn't recognized.
So many other things in thatsong were so powerful and it hit
me like not being able toexplore who I am, sexually
keeping everything repressedbody image issue, all of these
things but that when I heard,one day you'll learn to keep
your own secrets, that did adoozy on me, because I realized

(24:09):
that I was never, ever allowedto keep a secret.
I was never allowed to havesomething private for me, and
that's what that felt liketrying to date and having not
only you know our families beinglike tell us checkmark through
everything you've done recentlyand then the shame in that but

(24:31):
also because we were both inpositions where our families
were in leadership at thischurch at the time and we were
in leadership that there werepeople who were microscope lens
on us all the time and givingtheir opinions about our
relationship or seeing us outand reporting back.
Like it was.
Just there was no privacy and sowhen I'd sit and mom would be

(24:56):
like, well, what happened thisweek?
And you'd have to expose thisvery sacred, private, beautiful
moment that I had with mypartner, who I loved so very
much, and then that was lookedon and spoken about that as a
shameful way, even though weweren't raised this way has

(25:28):
always been so focused on myboundaries and so focused on
loving me in in a sexual spacein such a caring way.
So to me it was always such abeautiful loving experience and
then it would be written off inas shame when it was exposed.
So that was also.
It felt violating, it also feltvery confusing and you know, I

(25:55):
know then friends who were insimilar situations what it did
for them is it made them have aview of sexuality, and their own
sexuality, as something thatthey just couldn't come face to
face with.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yeah, I mean, it's always been looked at as the
negative, so why would you wantto face it?

Speaker 2 (26:12):
Of course, but then the twist is like my friends and
I always joke about this, itwas like it's always the
negative.
But the second that you'dannounce your engagement and
there'd be that bridal party,everyone would be coming out of
the woodworks handing you thecraziest lingerie and being like
so what type of dance are you?
And you're like what it's soconfusing.

(26:33):
And then it's like you're goingto be pleasing your husband,
and that's the twist too.
Then it all becomes about yourhusband's pleasure, where it was
just you are a sexual object,but you can't see yourself as
that.
And then one day you become awife and you have to be the
apple of your husband's eye andit's all about his pleasure.

(26:53):
And even if you don't want to,you just got to have as much sex
as possible, or else he's goingto watch porn or he's going to
leave you.
And that was just the narrativePurity culture is always about
someone else.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
Like when was it ever about you?
Like when did you find joy?
Yeah, what was joy for you?

Speaker 2 (27:16):
Joy for me this sounds like joy for me was again
feeling very lucky.
The partner that I chose.
I found joy in knowing thatwhat we had was good, even
though I knew it was like I wasbeing told it was so wrong, like

(27:44):
I knew in my, in my heart, thatway that he's wired is that
that he didn't let that affecthim nearly as much and he was
able to just look at ourrelationship as that.
But in that moment that's whatbrought me joy.
And then what I had to learn is, once I pulled myself out of
that, once we'd been married fora while and I was removing

(28:05):
myself, that I'm like, okay,I've seen just my joy with a
partner.
Now I need to learn how to havemy independent joy.
And that's beenself-exploration that's been
coming out, that's been beingwho I am freely, even though a

(28:29):
lot of rejection and loss offriends and family from that
space have happened.
It's a little bit like, okay,well, good Cause, this was not
bringing me any sort of freedomor joy or anything.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
When did you figure out you were a bisexual?

Speaker 2 (28:51):
when did you figure out you were a bisexual?

Speaker 1 (28:52):
when you were like oh , I'm like when I go back and
like it was always.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
It was definitely like it's always there, it's
always been there, same thing Isaid like this makes sense.
I'm like you mean whenever Iwatched any disney princess
movie and I just was veryattracted to all the princesses,
and that was it you're likehe's an idiot, but her, yeah, no
, I see it for her like Iremember being being told it was
like you just admire them.

(29:15):
I was just like no, I amattracted to sit in it and I'm
so grateful.
Honestly, there are so manyterrible things about social

(29:39):
media, but there are also somany good things about social
media and I found the queerspaces on social media and it
just it helped me so muchbecause I was definitely, you
know, living in a space where Ithought I could not say that I
was bisexual unless I had anactual sexual experience, and I

(30:03):
didn't think it was.
I was valid because of that.
And then, when I was findingall these different queer spaces
on social media where it waslike no, you're valid.
And then also then finding outyou know, I didn't know anything
about anything All like evenjust like the conversation of
being asexual, like I was soignorant to that and there's
just so many, so many thingsthat social media helped me dive

(30:26):
into and find different thingsto read and learn.
And as soon as I found that, Iwas like well, I know, and I've
known for a long time, so youknow, then it was just a
conversation with my husband andI was like I'm bi and he's like
I know.
He's like been waiting on youknow, I'm very aware um so I

(30:53):
love that and since then it'sjust been amazing to just feel
the freedom to just internallyfeel good about who I am and not
having to reword certain thingslike, oh, I admire that woman.
It's like, no, I'm attracted tothat person.

(31:15):
I was just constantly in myyouth rewording certain things.
It was like when I got my firsttattoo, the only way that I
could get my first tattoo is bymaking it a Bible verse, and so
it was always reworking thesystem to get what I wanted.
So it was like, you know, theparents agreed because I said it
would be a Bible verse, it'slike, but I just really wanted a

(31:37):
tattoo, that's all that Ireally wanted.

Speaker 1 (31:44):
I'm like, I'm like covered in tattoos now.
It's like, yeah, we have somany.
Now.
What did safety feel like foryou?
And let me let me extend it abit.
When I look at safety, I alwayslook at it internally and
externally.
So what did safety look likefor you while you were actively

(32:05):
in the church and then, asyou've kind of been like a
grownup outside and like in yourown family?

Speaker 2 (32:12):
Oh, that's a tough one.
I never felt safe in the church.
The times that I'd feel thesafest was when I was abiding by
the rules that they put infront of me.
So I crave safety, I think, asobviously anyone does, but I

(32:35):
think that's why I found myselfthere for so long and I think
that's why I found myself inleadership and I was always a
quote unquote very good girlgrowing up, because getting the
approval and the thumbs up wasthe only time that I felt like I
was in a safe space, which isnot true, but that's how I felt

(33:02):
and that's, I think, too, why Iam on the eternal, eternal
journey to break out of mypeople-pleasing tendencies,
because that's where it comesfrom, this desire for safety way

(33:29):
.
And the stepping away from thechurch was like it ended up
being just this very dramaticexit and, like I said, lost a
lot of people and family alongthe way.
But now, for me, safety is theability to like I mentioned
before that line to keep my ownsecrets, like the ability to
live secrets, like the abilityto live privately and to have

(33:54):
internal thoughts and not feellike because I had an internal
thought that might be differentthan the person, how the person
feels next to me, that I'm not abad person, that I'm just.
I process something in adifferent way.
And when I'm in a space where,oh my gosh, like meeting a
friend, where I feel like I canbe just myself, that's utmost

(34:16):
safety, that there's nothing,there's not a joy on the planet
now, that feels like thecommunion, you know and I'll use
the phrase communion of twopeople or more, where I can just
be myself and feel like, evenif they don't agree with how I'm
feeling in the moment, thatit's not, I'm not sinful, I'm

(34:40):
just processing somethingdifferently.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
Yeah.
You know, it's those placesthat you're supposed to feel the
safest, and then they fuck youand you're like now what I know,
you know what I'm learning?

Speaker 2 (34:50):
that a lot where I'm like oh, I also need to work on
like you know who I'm bringinginto my space, because, yeah,
yeah, that's for sure.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
you mentioned like stepping away and all these
things.
What was that like for you,like as someone that was so
deeply ingrained, the levels youwere in it.
Everyone knew who you were mostlikely.
Yes, yes, how did you?

Speaker 2 (35:15):
uncouple that it was so scary and also the best
feeling on the planet.
It was not overnight, it was along process.
I started to just again havecertain things that I just kept
private.
For the first time in my life,I all of a sudden wasn't open

(35:37):
and sharing everything.
So all of a sudden, when we'dhave Bible study and I'd be like
, well, what did you go through?
And I wouldn't say anything orI'd say something that didn't
matter or whatever.
But I was starting to keepthings personal and private in
my own self.
And part of that then too, wasmy journey of independence in my
relationship, because myhusband and I got married when
we were so young, 23.

(35:57):
We had been dating in highschool and we both needed it.
We needed to be our own peopleand the church that we were in
very much, or just the communityin general very much was.
You know, once you're married,the two become one and it's this
, like you know, and we didn'tneed that.
We needed our own independentspace to be who we are, and so I

(36:21):
just kept things very privatefor a while, even in my own
marriage, and I was reading andlistening and just like gobbling
up information like dinnerevery single day, one of, I
think, the opening for me and Ialways share this with people
and I'm like.

(36:42):
I know it might sound so random,but the comedian Pete Holmes
had a podcast or has a podcastcalled you Made it Weird.
I heard a comedian randomly onand I wasn't even that deep in
podcasts at the time, but acomedian that I loved was on the
show and I really liked theepisodes.
Then I listened to the nextepisode.

(37:02):
It was funny, it was cool.
And then I listened to the nextepisode, and the next episode
was about spirituality and Petehad come from the next episode
and the next episode was aboutspirituality and Pete had come
from a very similar place that Ihad raised super conservative,
and he was in the middle of whathe referred to and now a lot of
ex-evangelicals refer to asdeconstruction, and he was Tell

(37:24):
me that, what is that?
So they have the saying that youstart when you're pulling away.
There's the deconstruction andthey say it's like you were born
and you have your apartmentright that you're born into and
there are a few things that arejust in there, like built in,
that's just who you are.
And then in childhood theconstruction happens and you

(37:46):
have family members and parentswho might all of a sudden start
Oops, sorry, is it crackling onyour end, my mic?
Okay, I just want to make surefor the recording, sorry.
Thank you, chris, you're doinggreat You're doing great.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
No, it's fine.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
And then your environment, your parents.
They start putting in their ownfurniture into your apartment,
got it?
Yeah, then essentially, thedeconstruction is when you look
around and you're like I'mburning this apartment, I don't
like what's in this apartment.
Yes, I don't like this spacethat I'm existing in in my own

(38:27):
body, and the deconstruction islike the tearing down of things.
And then after is thereconstruction, where you look
around at either your emptyspace Maybe it's completely
empty, maybe there are stillpieces that are in that you like
and you go okay, what am Igoing to bring in now?
And that was where Pete Holmeswas in.

(38:47):
He was in this deconstructionphase and he was having on

(39:08):
people like Rob Bell, who wasall these different spiritual
leaders that were in the zonethat I was in on this podcast,
and it was like my brain wasexploding.
And I felt like I know, and Iwas like this is incredible and
I, like, I said I was eating itup, it was everything, and but I

(39:29):
wasn't talking about it at all.
And then I was reading theirbooks and all this, and then I
got pregnant and that was thenwhen I was like, oh my god, this
is the moment that I have todecide what direction my life is
going in, because I will not, Iwill not raise my child in this

(39:51):
environment.
I refuse, um, and then that wasthe conversation where I sat my
husband down and I was likethis is, this is the end.
This is the end.
This is the end, like ourmarriage is over, because he
can't be with a heretic like me,you know.

(40:16):
And it was an incredible momentbecause I sat down with him and
he was like Jessica, same, likesame, same same, and he had been
processing all the same exactthings and feeling the same ways
.
And we were like, okay, how arewe going to do this?
And we for a little while keptit a secret between the two of

(40:40):
us.
Sure, and then, eventually, wejust put it all out there.
I put it all out there, on inpodcasts, on chatty broads, and
people heard it, and that wasthen the beginning of the end.
Oh, yeah, yeah, and that waslike that was the beginning of
the end, you know, for a lot ofrelationships and things, and

(41:04):
but it was so special to mebecause and I I'm going to keep
harping back on the keeping yourown secrets, because that was
something that I just neverrealized was so important to be
able to just have your ownboundaries and privacy is that
to have that time in my life,and it lasted for many years
where I was on my own privatejourney.

(41:26):
I was on my own private journeyand then I brought my husband
in and he had been on his ownprivate journey and then him and
I had our private journeytogether, before ever exposing
it to anyone because they don'tneed to know.
And that realization of I'mlike this is my own life, I
don't need to be documentingthis and sharing this with
certain people around me, like Ican just give this to who I

(41:48):
feel comfortable with until I'mready.

Speaker 1 (41:51):
And uh, yeah, wow, have you mourned for that part
of yourself?

Speaker 2 (42:03):
it is definitely a grieving process.
That is the grieving, notlinear, it comes in waves, for
sure.
I definitely had a seriousphase of mourning.
Yeah, I had a serious phase ofrage, like I was so mad, and

(42:26):
that still hits me every once ina while when I have memories
that I've like repressed,suppressed, and then all of a
sudden I'll remember and I'll belike, oh my god, I forgot about
that and I'll get really angry.
But the morning it's like akind of a continual thing.
But right now I'm so.

(42:46):
What I love is being able tohave now my child and as I'm
raising her, as she's goingthrough different parts of her
life, it's helping heal, I think, my past self because I'm able
to be along for her ride,parenting her.
But then remembering thosepivotal moments in my life and

(43:07):
mourning and grieving thosewhere I'm like, oh, like I said
her, even just saying like Ilove myself so much In the
moment I was like obsessed,obsessed, and then, after I put
her to bed, I cried that nightbecause I was like, oh, I never
understood what that meant,because I always hated myself

(43:30):
and to have to be a kid and haveany feeling of being proud of
who you are or love yourself.
I'm like, wow, like you know,myself and so many beyond, so
many others never got toexperience that and that's
terrible.
And so, yeah, there's the griefin that, in the morning and

(43:50):
that, for sure, but then, likethe sunrise, when then I see her
, because it always sticks in myhead, you know I'm a huge, I
love drag.
That's also a big thing, that.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
I love drag.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
That was a huge, pivotal thing for myself as well
.
I was listening to the podcastand then watching RuPaul's Drag
Race simultaneously and hearingin the workroom different queens
talking about their stories.
And so many of them had storieswhere they were raised in very
conservative evangelical homesand were rejected by family and

(44:27):
parents and hearing theirstories was just so helpful and
beneficial for me.
And they always say RuPaulalways says if you can't love
yourself, how the hell are yougoing to love anybody else?
And I think about that with mydaughter, where I'm like, oh,
she loves herself so much andshe loves other people so much
because she's able to loveherself so much.

(44:48):
And then I look back at becauseshe's able to love herself so
much.
And then I look back at likebeing raised where it's like you
should hate yourself but youneed to simultaneously put
everyone else first and loveothers.
And it's just like how the heckam I supposed to know how to do
that if I can't love who I am?

Speaker 1 (45:01):
You're like this is a lot.
Can we break it down?
You've mentioned a word quiteoften, shame, um, and I always
look at it as shame and guilt.
Or like the cousins no onewants to hang out with, like
shame is all the shit people puton us and guilt is how we hold
on to it.
Where is, where is the shameand the guilt for you in 2024?

Speaker 2 (45:26):
oh, the shame and the guilt in 2024.
Um, it's getting better, it'sgetting better.
We're it's, it's slowly.
Sometimes, oh, it's hit like atsunami.
You know, we're out of nowhere.
I'm realizing that I'm doingsomething out of pure shame, or

(45:51):
then guilt, genuinely, andthat's been a big reflection for
me over this past year.
2024 so far has been like theyear of me just really having to
sit and be still and not bequick to diagnose something
about myself and just be likewhy did you do that?
Or why did you allow thatperson into your space, or why

(46:12):
did you?
You know all these things.
And then when I'm sitting withmyself and realizing that almost
all of it has to do with thisshame and guilt that I have, but

(46:34):
that one it, it reminds me,it's similar and it reminds me
of of grief, it it's, it's notlinear and I do feel, like you
know, when I have hope formyself and I'm, what I'm excited
about is that I'm like you know, this is just starting and I
have the rest of my life to keepgrowing and shifting, but I do
feel like that's something thatI will carry for me for forever.
That's going to be the foreverbattle for me is that are those

(46:55):
backpacks of you're a bad personand the way in which you move
in the world is not the rightway, and so that's always going
to be ringing in my head to thepoint where and now I've gotten
to a place where, you know, I'mpretty much not on social media

(47:17):
ever.
I very rarely venture there.
Because what I started torealize is that I was ingesting
everyone's opinions, the good,the bad and the ugly.
I was ingesting all of them andwearing them.
Like okay, this is who I needto be now.
And coming off so fresh fromleaving the church and that

(47:37):
community I was becoming,whoever was in front of me
wanted me to be because that'swhat I was used to doing.
So it's like, okay, well, Ileave the church, but now I'm
going to become who this otherperson thinks I should be.
And so when I'm, like you know,on social media and like getting
in the DMs and reading certainthings, I'm like okay, and even
if they're because of course youknow you have to take in like I

(47:59):
love a constructive criticismand I love it, but I had to see
I'm like, okay, what space am Iin?
Can I do this right now?
Because what I was seeingmyself doing was, instead of
just receiving certain things asconstructive criticism, it
would be like I'm a bad person.

(48:22):
Okay, so this is who I am now.
Even if it's something as basicas, like, the sound quality,
I'm like I've done it all wrongand I must.
I must deconstruct the studioand start it all up from afresh
and it's like no, that's nothealthy for me.
So, learning to know that shameand guilt are going to always
be present and, when they'refeeling super extra, to know

(48:43):
that it's like hey, I can onlyallow certain opinions into my
sphere in this moment, or elseI'm going to become someone who
I'm not.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
Yeah, what are you currently unlearning?
I feel like this is like as agrown up, we spend so much time
unlearning shit to make room tolearn things.
Yes, I'm always like, alwayslike oh, okay, I don't need this
those away.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
I love that.
You know.
What's so cool too is that,like, just just hearing that
phrase what are you unlearning?
It lights me up, because thatwas so something that wasn't an
option.
Yeah, in that the world that Iwas raised in because it was
like you learn these tenets andthen you stick by these and you
do these for forever therewasn't this idea of continued

(49:36):
growth and unlearning.
Something just wasn't really.
It was never a phrase I hadheard, and it's so exciting to
think like, oh, I can unlearnshit now and relearn and I can
shift and become who I am andall of this.
I would say the biggest thingthat I'm unlearning right now is
well, I'm trying to think ofthe right way to phrase this,

(49:59):
because what I'm learning isthat not everyone's going to
like you, sure, so I'munlearning.
Yeah, I'm unlearning the hey,everybody, everybody's gotta
like you for you to be a goodperson.
Yeah, that's, I think, how Iwas raised, where for you to be
palatable and good, like, it hasto be a general consensus that

(50:21):
everyone likes you andeveryone's gonna have an opinion
in this community, and the onlyway that you're good is if
everyone like agrees that you'regood and learning that Not
everyone's going to like you,and that's totally fine, like
just the it's and it's.
So it sounds so basic but it'sso hard for me.

(50:43):
But then when I pull back and Igo, there are plenty of people
that I'm not huge fans of and Idon't hate them.

Speaker 1 (50:53):
You actually don't like people, yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
The thing about it is there are plenty of people that
I don't love, and I'm not likethere's anything wrong with them
, it's just like they're not mycup of tea.
I'm not going to spend my timelistening to their content or
watching their content, andthey're not a bad person.
It's just not for me and that'sfine.
And I think that's the journeyright now, where I'm like okay,

(51:19):
it's okay, it's okay.
If someone doesn't like whatI'm doing now and is like oh,
it's boring, or it's tooagreeable, or it's stupid, or
whatever I go.
Oh it's boring, or it's youknow, too agreeable, or it's
stupid, or whatever I go, oh,it's okay, you don't have to
like me, I can be annoying toyou, that's okay, you know.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
Can you consume media that's around like religion and
purity culture, like for traumathings I'm like?
Eh, I can't always watch allthe things but I'm like sure,
sometimes you find the like, therelation, and it's like someone
gets it.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
It has to be the right place, right time for me
and I think I've learned to knowmyself enough to know when I
can.
What's funny is now I'm in aspace where I can consume
content that disagrees with me.

(52:16):
More like that goes back topurity culture.
I can hear that more nowbecause I'm so confident in who
I am and so confident in mydecision to remove myself and
I've given myself the tools andlearned the skills and all of
that to rebuttal those thingsand not have the temptation to

(52:36):
slide back into that.
Specifically, I have a hardertime, honestly, sometimes now
engaging with people who are inthat mid deconstruction space
and I love it because it's likethis is like this is the
important stuff.

(52:57):
But I think sometimes when Ilisten to the deconstruction I
get back to a place of angerwhich I'm all about being
getting that anger, but I'm likeI I'm not there right now.
I let the anger out a lot andI'm in a place where I'm feeling
so peaceful and I'd like tostay there in this exact moment.

(53:17):
So when I sometimes hear thattype of media, it can really
re-trigger certain things ormemories of certain people that
I'm like, oh yeah, fuck them.
And then I go, you know, andthen I that's all I'm thinking
about for weeks where I'm justspiraling, being like if I could

(53:39):
go back and be in that positionand what I would have done or
said, and you know, that's thenwhere I'm in a loop.

Speaker 1 (53:44):
I don't want to be in yeah, I wouldn't want to do
that again.
I'd be like it's like doinghigh school again.
I'm okay.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
It's like we're good, it's a nice memory, but I'm
fine.
Do you consider yourself stillreligious?
No, I would say, and my thingis too, and this was part of my
reconstruction.
To go back to that phrasing isthat I'm in a place now I really

(54:14):
I do enjoy hearing aboutdifferent people's religions if
they're participating inanything religious.
Like you know, I talked to mykid and I'm like hey, you can
believe and participate inanything that you want to.
My only caveat is so long asit's not hurting anybody.
You know emotionally,physically, all these things.

(54:36):
You know emotionally,physically, all these things and
so I love hearing people andlearning about that and I
respect it so much Again, withinthe bounds of not hurting
people and when it's just aboutyou personally.
But no, I don't and I don't.
I never say never because youknow who knows where I'll be in

(54:58):
10 years, but I don't foreseemyself ever being religious,
ever again.
But I do feel extremelyspiritual.
That definitely hasn't goneaway and I don't know what I
think and I've felt this way fora few years and I think it's my
most favorite place I've everbeen in.
And I've felt this way for afew years and I think it's my
most favorite place I've everbeen in, where, when my child

(55:20):
says what happens when we die?
Or is there a God or da-da-da?
Where I go, I don't know.
And I love saying I don't knowbecause I think that was never
allowed, it was never considered.

(55:41):
So when I get to say I don'tknow, I feel the opposite of
nervousness, I feel the oppositeof fear.
I feel like so confident andbeing like oh, it's so great to
feel good and saying I don'tknow.
And that's how I feel now.
I have my certain spiritualpractices.
I love reading certain things,ingesting certain things, but
that's kind of where it landsfor me, at least right now.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
What brings you joy?

Speaker 2 (56:05):
Oh, now is like the essence and energy of peace.
I think, after removing myselffrom the church, what brought me

(56:32):
joy is adrenaline andexhilaration, and I was out
there doing anything andeverything I could and I was
like, let's make up for losttime.
And I had so much fun, buckleup, buckle up and I had so much
fun.
And now what brings me so muchjoy is waking up on those days

(56:57):
where it's quiet and I get to bewith a family or a friend, like
genuinely, just like a quietwalk and listening.
I think my brain is very busy.
It's always been extremely busy, and years ago I think I would
just try to always fill any timeor gap with.

(57:19):
What you should be doing isworshiping.
What you should be doing isthinking on your walk, you
should be pond the sights andthe smells, and just being
present is like the ultimate joyand gift for me, because I

(57:45):
don't think that being presentwas ever allowed or encouraged.
It was always either.
Well, the focus was alwaysfuture.
You want to get to heaven andbe good here, so you got to be
putting in the work, work, work,work, work, work, work, because
you want to get there, versuslike really trying to learn how

(58:07):
to be like.
This is what I have, and so I'mgoing to really try to sit in
it and savor it, and that'sreally brought me peace that I
never thought existed before,and that's joy Like, even in
some of those like strenuousmoments, to be able to pull back
and go oh, it's okay.

(58:28):
It's okay, one step at a time,deep breath.
You know what I have is hereand now.
That's it, and it's so good andI'm so grateful.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
I love that.
I think that when we look atthese things, we focus on just
like the negative parts, but I'mlike joy is so important.
Yeah, joy is what we need toexist Because, honestly, we
could look outside, outside,turn the news on right now and
say fuck it all yeah, no, athousand percent, a million
percent correct, I'm good, I'mgood.

(59:07):
Uh, that's uh.
There's so many things that arerunning through my head.
That's also because it's earlyfor my brain.
Um, when I first met y'all itwas you and Becca and I was in
the space with you.
You introduced me to a song byGarfunkel and Oates.
Do you know what I'm talkingabout?

Speaker 2 (59:26):
I do, oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
And I was like what do you mean?
There's a song about anal sex.
What Fuck me in the ass?
Um, uh.
So I'm like let me look up thefull title of it.
Well, because it just says inthe ass.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
I'm like where's the title?
Oh my god, I haven't looked atthat in so long and I love that
yeah, the loophole it's calledthe loophole.
Oh my god, that sounds thatsounds crazy.
That's the point.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
Yes, the reason I bring that up is like myths,
like I, you know, people arealways like I mean, anal sex
isn't really sex, so it doesn'tcount.
So it's the loophole which isso wild yeah.
Hello, and they're like I'm notgoing to use lube, that doesn't
make it count.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Oh, the journey of lube discovery was just next
level for me.
I was like what is thisincredible substance?
Yeah, Insane.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
You know what?
Lube for everyone, especiallyyour butt.
It does not create anylubrication there, but lube it's
your best friend, y'all it'syour best friend.

Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
It's your best friend .
It's your best friend, it'syour best friend.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
Oh my gosh uh, what other myths did you experience
it?
Maybe you were like are youguys fucking with me?
Like what oh?

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
my gosh, there are so many myths.
I'm like so many.
Um, yeah, the loophole wasdefinitely one of them.
That was, that was hilarious,just like the idea that, like
you know, yeah, god doesn't seecertain things.
It's just, you know, penis intovagina, that's the only thing.

(01:01:09):
Blood, yeah, no, like, let me.
Let me tell you what I when,when, all of a sudden at a later
age, I was like, oh, I washaving sex this whole time.
That was a sudden, at a laterage, I was like, oh, I was
having sex this whole time.
That was a wild thing for me todiscover.
You're like, oh, but thatspecific type of penetration
hadn't happened, so I haven'thad sex.
It's just like, no, you havebeen.

(01:01:33):
Oh, my goodness, I'm trying tothink Myths, myths, myths.
I'm trying to think Myths,myths, myths.
I literally it felt like I mean, it's hard for me to even think
because it literally feels likeeverything you know so much
about sexuality.

(01:01:53):
Lube is a great example energyin the community that I was in
where, like I said, veryconfusing because it's like,
well, don't have sex, but whenyou're married you got to be,
you know, swinging from therafters, the chandeliers, just
like absolute freak for yourwild.
It's so wild but extreme, it'sjust like.

(01:02:15):
It was just all the myths oflike, first of all, the binary,
that was a huge like what in theworld?
But then just like, if you area CIS man, you just they, all
they want is sex, 24, seven.
It's just like, well, thatwasn't true.
And if you are a CIS woman, youdon't have these like sexual
desires, but you have to givethem to, and you're like what?

(01:02:36):
I mean, there were just, it wasjust all of that.
And so then the thing is, though, too would be like, well, you
have to have this amount of sexto be having a healthy sexual
relationship with your husband,and then, if you need lube, it's
probably because you know it's,it's on you.
You're not producing enoughbecause you're not allowing
yourself to get turned on all ofthose things.

(01:02:57):
It was just sing enough becauseyou're not allowing yourself to
get turned on all of thosethings.
It was just.
I realized that everything thatall the blame, you know very
patriarchal community, where allthe blame was put on, like you
know, myself as a woman andagain, don't even get me started
when it comes to the queercommunity but like, just as a
woman.
It was like everything.
If there's any quote-unquotebump in the road for him, it's

(01:03:20):
because it's your fault.
You know, um consent massive.
That was.
I think, one of the moredangerous things in in that
space that was a myth was thatonce you're married, you know

(01:03:42):
all's fair and there was noconversation about consent, and
I feel extremely like I, youknow just extremely grateful
that that was never any like.
That wasn't a story for me, butI have so many dear friends

(01:04:04):
that it was, and just walkingthrough times with them where we
didn't we couldn't put words toit and we thought that it was
just all okay.
But then we knew it was not andthat, yeah, I mean it's just,

(01:04:24):
there were so many, there wereso many surrounding sex where it
was just myth, myth, and Ithink a lot of it has to do with
the fact that that is a hugeobsession.
In the specific evangelicalcommunity that I was raised in,
you know, there's noconversation about violence, war

(01:04:48):
, that's all good, it's likethere's nothing there, but it's
just like but sex is theobsession and it's bad until
it's good and there's only onetype of good and yeah, that is
dangerous.

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
It's and the idea of like your partner can't assault
you, like their rape, doesn'texist.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
Correct.
Correct and in that you know somany people and so many people
that I know in situations where,because a marriage is there and
they don't feel safe, but it'slike, well, there's marriage,
you can't get a divorce and theonly way biblically that they

(01:05:41):
said you were allowed to have adivorce was if your partner
cheated.
Anything else could behappening in that marriage and a
divorce was not allowed.
And it was so dangerous and asoften when I saw it, you know,
on from the woman's side it waslike, well, but I can't cheat,
because if I do and he leaves me, I'll be fully shunned and

(01:06:05):
shamed by my community.
But I need to get out of this.
So it was just, you know,people almost like begging for
their partner to cheat, likethat was the only way out.
It's just wild, like lookingback, it's just um, it's just
wild.

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
Like looking back, it's just it's wild.
I have two more questions.
Yes, what does community meanto you?
It sounds like you have had somany different types of
community, but like, what doesthat mean for you present day?

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
so like positive community, oh, like I definitely
there's been a lot of forms ofcommunity and there there were a
lot of forms of community in mypast and you know I'm obviously
sitting here just talkingabsolute shit and saying all
these terrible things but therewere so many people who my heart

(01:06:54):
breaks because they were partof the community and you know
they didn't know otherwise and Ithink of them often and so it's
like there were so many reallybeautiful people that I met in
that space who just had beenfeeling like they couldn't leave

(01:07:15):
or even didn't know otherwise.
I do think again social mediablessings, so grateful for it,
because I've seen so many nowpeople learn things because of
social media that now they feeland they've moved on.

(01:08:04):
Um, but community now to me is Ijust when I hear community, I
just like feel the word spacelike like a matter where we are
in life or what we're processingthrough space is made and also
boundaries are made, likethere's this symbiosis of the
coming and going in community.
That's something that I reallyvalue with the community I have
now is that I have people whowill make space for me but then

(01:08:26):
also understand that sometimes Ineed to retreat and I need to
go be in my little cave and healand they don't see that as me
abandoning, but instead it's adifferent way that they're
making space, and I think thefluid movement of community now

(01:08:47):
is something that is such a giftto me.
I think I treasure the most outof everything are meeting
people where there's theunderstanding of that life comes
in waves, grief comes in waves,guilt comes in waves, ecstasy

(01:09:10):
and joy come in waves, and beingable to hold space for all of
that with the people that you'resurrounding yourself with, I
think we could talk about thisall day because I'll just keep
my brain will just keep flowing,but we also have shit to do
today.

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
A question that I like to end the show with,
because we talk about such funstuff here.
The problem is fun to me, y'allstuff here, the problem is fun
to me, y'all.
This is purely just because I'ma nosy bitch.
What is the wildest thing andwildest perspective?
What is the wildest thing?
Someone?

Speaker 2 (01:09:49):
has texted or DMed you in the last two weeks.
Okay, so I told you before westarted.
I said I haven't been in theDMs in a minute.
That's somewhere I don'tventure often as much and, by
the way, I do have to say ingeneral I'm so grateful for my
community on social mediabecause I feel like so many,
like the mass, mass, massmajority of the messages are

(01:10:09):
always so lovely and encouraging.
But I'm a sensitive lady so Ihave to be careful venturing
there because one will send meinto that people pleasing spiral
for an eternity.
But I actually got a message,so I dove in and it was a
message that was literally sentthe day before I checked.

(01:10:29):
I checked like two days ago,the day before I checked, and
it's funny because it's kind oflike what we have been talking
about.
So the message essentially saidthat they because I have a
podcast and that they said it'svery obvious that your energy

(01:10:50):
has changed in like this pastyear, and nobody likes it Nobody
damn.
Nobody likes it.
You seem off, you seem unhappy.
It's just kind of pulsating offof you.
It was a long message about howno one likes my new energy I

(01:11:12):
guess this year and how it's soobvious that I'm not doing well.
And the funny thing about themessages that I always have that
flicker.
I have that flicker of going oh, my God, am I not happy?
Does everyone see that I'm nothappy and I'm not aware of how I
feel right now and I was ableto kind of be like okay, I got

(01:11:36):
to do my, I do my tapping, I domy breathing A little reality
testing.
Well, yeah, a little testing ofreality here.
And it's so funny because I'mlike this past year there's been
like a lot of just random hardthings like health wise and
things like that.
There's just been a lot.
But ironically, I'm like, Ifeel like I'm in the best place

(01:12:01):
I've been in my entire life.
Right now, personally, I feelthe most at peace, I feel the
most like, I'm feeling that joyjust emanating, even through
then these certain rocky times.
So it was just so funny to mebecause I felt like it was a
good reminder where I'm like youknow what?
Maybe everyone is looking at meon the podcast and going you

(01:12:23):
are in a bad space and we canall tell and we all hate it, but
I'm like, but the truth of thematter is, I feel the best I've
felt in ever.

Speaker 1 (01:12:32):
So, oh well, my energy is terrible.
I'm doing great yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:39):
I'm like, and I'm like you know what.
It's a good reminder for me too, where I'm like okay, this
person thinks that my energy isthey can't stand whatever energy
I'm putting out right now.
And it was a good reminder too,because I'm like well, I feel
really good in my energy rightnow.
I feel like I've been in myenergy, I've been like a good

(01:12:59):
partner.
I feel like I've been able tobe like a really present, good
mom.
So this person doesn't.
They like my energy, I guess ata different time, and that's
great and I'm glad that theyliked my energy then, but I like
my energy now.
So, oh well, I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:17):
Well, good luck out there.
I don't know what to tell you.
This was so fun.
I laughed.
I made faces and you know y'allwill see it because it's visual
.
But where can they?
He, she, zim, zay, all of theabove, where can they find you?

(01:13:37):
Tell us about your podcast.
Also, tell us your businessbefore you leave us, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
Well, thank you so much.
Okay, so everyone can find meat the Bad Mom with two Ds.
I post sometimes, not often.
Like I said, I've not beenoften on social media in the
past year or two I suppose, butI do have a podcast.
It's called your Mom and Dad.
It is with my partner and mostof the time we talk all things

(01:14:08):
reality television.
It is a silly, silly place.
We kind of are in a space wherewe're like you know what we
want to have a moment where alot of us watch reality TV to
decompress and then have someweird, wild conversations after,
and we have a space where wehave sometimes emotional

(01:14:30):
conversations about things thatwere sparking in our brain after
watching people on ourtelevisions and then a lot of
times we just have a deep, sillylaughter.

Speaker 1 (01:14:41):
Good old time to just have a moment of peace in the
week because we need that,because we need that, because we
need that everyone, please,please, go listen to the podcast
, get a little little breather.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
A little laughter, a little breather, and a little
laughter, a little breather alittle breather and every once
in a while, a moment where I cry.
You know I have to throw thatin every once in a while,
depending on maybe that's theenergy they're talking about.
All of a sudden I'm like wait,have I been crying a lot?

Speaker 1 (01:15:12):
I feel like when people are like I don't like
this energy, I I'm like, oh, I'mdoing something right, because
it's probably something aboutyou that is not for me, and I'm
like, oh no, look at you gettinglost.

Speaker 2 (01:15:24):
And see, this is why I love you so much and you are
such a gift, because what takesme a millennia to try to say,
you're like, you've got the oneline and I'm like that's it.
Write it down, put it in a book.

Speaker 1 (01:15:38):
Put it in a book.
That's it, goodbye, goodbye.
Also, I'm going to say this andmy friend was like you got to
stop saying this.
I've been calling peoplepeasant.
And my business partner she'slike I got a new one she's like
plebeian.
And I was like you can't callpeople plebeians and I said why

(01:16:01):
not?
What are they?

Speaker 2 (01:16:01):
and she's like sometimes so I'm just being real
right now don't be a plebeian.

Speaker 1 (01:16:12):
Uh, this was so good.
I love you so much.
I love talking about the hardthings.
Because why not?
Because we spent so much timenot talking about them.
You spent so much time nottalking about it.
And I'm also someone that'slike how do we get through
something?
By continuously trying to goaround it or over it, Like you

(01:16:33):
got to go through the shit.

Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
Right and the thing is too like like what you're
doing in your space is whatchanged my life.
You know, like if I would havehad your podcast at the time it
wasn't around yet but if I wouldhave had an access to that, I'm
like that's what I needed.
A podcast literally got me out,and so people like yourself and

(01:16:56):
other people who come on thispodcast, who are then talking
about these things, I'm likethis.
I I'm one and I can literallysay I'm like this changed my
life and I have a full differentdirection now and I understand
your joy.
Now, you know, and then,generationally, it's like okay,

(01:17:18):
then now I can be a differenttype of mom to my child.
Um, so this is.
I mean.
You're literally doing theLord's work.
However, you want to dissectthat term.

Speaker 1 (01:17:32):
You know what, and we're going to leave it at that
Cause, y'all you dissect it inyour own way, exactly this was
great.