October 17, 2024 • 61 mins
Do you have any questions, any comments about the episode? Jimanekia would love to hear from you!
Can redefining our identities lead to a more fulfilling life? Join us as we engage with Nicoletta Hedger, a licensed marriage and family therapist and award-nominated sexologist, who courageously shares her journey beyond her career titles. Nicoletta offers a raw and honest look into the societal pressures of self-definition by our professional achievements, challenging us to embrace vulnerability and discover our true selves. Her personal experiences with health challenges and her multifaceted roles as a partner, daughter, and friend serve as a powerful reminder that our identities are complex and deserving of exploration.
We then unravel the intricate world of sex therapy, guided by Nicoletta's insights into the often-taboo topic of sexuality. Her passion for advocating around issues like pelvic pain and medical trauma shines through, offering a glimpse into the systemic challenges that many face. Nicoletta introduces tools like the Erotic Blueprint Test and emphasizes the importance of self-advocacy, aiming to reshape how individuals understand and communicate their desires. By addressing the misconceptions and societal norms around sexual pain, we learn how trauma-informed care and specialized medical attention are crucial for healing and empowerment.
As we conclude, we take a closer look at the broader implications of pelvic health, including the myths and systemic biases that can marginalize individuals within healthcare. Nicoletta candidly discusses the fear and mistrust faced by marginalized communities, highlighting the need for a compassionate and informed approach to medical care. The vital role of social media in raising awareness, despite the challenges it presents, is also examined, leaving listeners with valuable perspectives on empowerment and healing. This conversation is a must for anyone seeking a deeper understanding of sexual health, trauma, and the courage it takes to advocate for oneself in a complex world.
Thank you all for listening. Set a boundary with yourself this week, set a boundary with someone else. If someone else does not respect that boundary. LET THEM LOOSE YOU! Stay hydrated internally and externally. We do not have an ashy family.
IG: @The_Trauma_Within
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@thetraumawithin
Jimanekia Ig: @Jimanekia
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Nicoletta Hedger is a licensed marriage and family
therapist and award-nominatedsexologist practicing in Los
Angeles, california.
She specializes in sex therapyfor diverse populations, as well
as equine assistedpsychotherapy.
When not seeing clients,nicoletta creates weekly content
(00:33):
via her award nominated showSluts and Scholars a sex
positive, shame-free,educational podcast for
professionals, professionals whoprioritize pleasure Y'all.
We got Nicoletta Fabulous.
I'm looking forward to thisquestion and I know that there's
a lot of folks that probablyhave questions.
(00:53):
A lot of folks struggle withwhat we're talking about today,
so I'm excited for this talk.
But before we get into the talk, they've heard the bio.
They do all the things, but myguests know and if not, you're
going to learn.
I like to know directly who areyou?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Thank you for asking.
You know I'm trying to come upwith a better response to it
because I'm really tired ofanswering.
Who are you with what I do?
Because in our culture.
we're just like taught that.
So I feel like my preparedanswer is what I do, but I just
want to say that it's a work inprogress, because I think who I
(01:30):
am is is more than that.
Who I am is like someone who'sstruggling with her own health
stuff and someone who's tryingto figure it out, and a partner
and a daughter and a friend, andand someone who's a little
burnt out.
Um, what I do is, uh, also apart of who I am, but I'm a
licensed marriage and familytherapist and I specialize in
(01:52):
sex therapy.
Uh, and I also host a podcast,which you have been on and will
return to, called sluts andscholars, and, um, yeah, I, my
goal is to, you know, helppeople experience more people
experience more shame-freepleasure in their life and find
ways to better connect withthemselves.
And I also work with animals asan equine-assisted
(02:15):
psychotherapist, meaning we workwith horses to assist people in
their therapy journey and,hopefully, to assist the horses
in that as well.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
So that's who I am.
I love that.
I think that is so true.
We instantly go to how do wemake money, how do we survive?
Versus like this is who I am.
Vulnerability is scary forpeople.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, well, it's just in capitalism, right?
It's all about like, well, whatare you doing?
What are you producing?
What are you doing?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Status yeah, are you worth talking to?
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Exactly that's literally the question Are you
worth talking to?
Absolutely, and I've beenguilty of it too when I ask
people that.
So I'm trying to shift that andI've been starting to ask
people how do you like to spendyour time?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
But I don't know if that's.
I'm still working on it.
It is a question.
And also, when you answerhonestly, people ask like how
are you?
I'm like, eh, today's kind ofrough.
They're like I don't know whatto do with this.
You're supposed to say I'm fine.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
How about you yeah?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
I'm like, nah, it's kind of rough and they're going.
I'm sorry, I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, it's hard.
That's funny it is.
It is really hard.
How did we meet?
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Oh my gosh, I want to say we met when you used to do
the um survivor like cabaret, ohyes, back in the day.
Um, I think, yeah, I think wewe met that way.
Um, so it was a, it was areally fun thing, but just
through a lot of differentcolleagues and peers and friends
and the overlaps have continuedas we've known each other.
But dang, I mean, it's beenlike 10 years, we're old, I feel
(03:58):
old.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Let me tell you I'm so thankful.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
My knee hurts my back hurts, my body hurts, I feel I
am in it.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
What does trauma mean to you?
Speaker 1 (04:10):
For me, the way I describe it to clients and to
myself is really anything thatoverwhelms the nervous system,
that affects our ability to movethrough states the way that
ideally, our body needs to so tobe able to move in and out of
different states, includingsurvival states, but also
(04:31):
relational grounded states, allthose things.
So really I define it broadlyas anything that overwhelms the
nervous system that affects ourquality of life.
So obviously there's a lot ofpeople who want to create a
hierarchy of, like, big trauma,little trauma, one instance
versus, uh, ongoing relationalattachment trauma, uh, but I see
(04:52):
it affecting people a lot inthe same ways.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
um, so yeah, anything that overwhelms the system and
affects your, your quality of oflife and connection yeah, I
love asking people that becauseI think there's so many
different definitions dependingon who you are, and I think that
people assume well, if itdoesn't look like this, then
it's not trauma and it's likethat's not how it works.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Yeah, and you know, I mean I see this with my clients
all the time, where they'lllist out all these things that
like I mean, look, it's notnecessarily up to me to be like,
yes, that's trauma and it'saffecting you as PTSD.
But I often will give educationto help people get there and
understand it.
But people will list out thesethings that I'm like that's
trauma and they're telling mehow it's affecting their body
and I'm like that's traumaresponse and we, I educate them
(05:41):
and then and then they'll stillgo back to like, well, no, but
this didn't happen to me andthis didn't happen to me and I
wasn't in war and nobody rapedme, and I'm like, but still,
here you are in therapy, havingthese feelings and these
experiences and these struggles,and so, yeah, it's such a wide
(06:01):
experience for people who eitherare threatened, have perceived
threat and and are living inthat state more than they need
to be.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Which most of us fucking are, especially now.
But I digress, do that all day.
So, getting to this work thatyou do and part of the purpose
that I want to have thisconversation with my friends.
I want to have these talks withmy friends.
I want to have these talks withmy friends because I get to
learn more about them as well,thanks for being my friend,
(06:31):
you're welcome.
But I think there's also theparts that people like don't
know about the people I'mtalking to.
Like you didn't just wake up asex therapist who was younger
Nicoletta, because she was atime um like how did you get
here?
How did you like what wasteenage you like?
Let's just start there.
(06:52):
What a teenage you look likeyoung, wild and freya oh my gosh
.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Um, you know I'm lucky to have some uh views back
into that because this is awhole nother story, but I
actually did like a reality showwhen I was younger that never
got aired, so I have we'll haveto watch it I have some video,
uh, evidence and old my spacesand things like that to look
back and I I look back and I'mjust like oh my gosh, what is
(07:19):
going on with her?
Um, but I would say, you know, Ididn't want to be a poser,
right, I was like really intotrying to be like alternative
and not like the other posers,which probably made me a poser.
So I really liked, you know, Iwas into alternative music, I
liked shopping at Hot Topic, butthen I also had this other side
(07:39):
that really wanted to fit in.
So I had my juicy track suitand, you know, my Von Dutch hat
or whatever.
People who are of my era willunderstand what I mean.
But you know, it was this kindof push pull between like
wanting to be liked, wanting tofit in, but also like wanting to
be cool and alternative, andhad this kind of fuck you
attitude, which I think issomething that helped.
(08:00):
Yeah, it's something that helpedme get into sex therapy,
because I've always beeninterested in the taboo, the
things that we're not supposedto maybe like or talk about, and
so I definitely had some luckgrowing up and having some
supportive parents and peoplearound me who encouraged my
sexual and relational knowledgeand education to an extent more
(08:23):
than other folks, and so, yeah,starting in high school, I
became interested in talkingabout sexuality and my siblings
had a babysitter at the time whotaught me that she would never
hook up with anyone unless theywent and got tested together and
this was like such a novel ideafor my you know, 16 year old
(08:46):
self.
And then I started doing that inlate high school and through
college and it became a way forme to start having safer sex
conversations, before I evenreally knew what that was.
And it became like emotionalsafety as well, like is this
person willing to chat with meabout my needs and my comforts
and our um, our health status?
(09:07):
Um.
Then, by the time I got tocollege, I worked at the sexual
health resource center and umhad a column in the newspaper uh
called sex talks with the tree.
I was the mascot of my college,which was a tree, um pause.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
What do you mean?
It's a tree, so I went toStanford.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Their technical mascot is a color which is
really stupid the StanfordCardinal, which is a like a
reddish color, but theunofficial university mascot is
a tree.
And so at all the games, allthe football games, basketball
games, volleyball games,t-shirts, it's the tree.
And so that was me, my senioryear, and I used my tree, my
(09:58):
arboreal platform, to teachpeople about sex ed weekly in
the newspaper.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
I love this.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
teach people about sex ed weekly in the newspaper.
I love this.
But the other thing that thathelped me is I had my own
therapist growing up.
That my mother kind of forcedme to go to at 12, but I'm so
glad she did and that really ledme on the on the path I would
say.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
That's wild.
To like one the tree y'all.
Let's sit with the tree for amoment.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Cause what I think we .
Speaker 2 (10:24):
That's wild to like one the tree y'all.
Let's sit with the tree for amoment, because what I think we
have similarities in the sensethat our families let us be
ourselves and now we get to bethese fun weirdos that people
pay us to be.
I love that Totally.
Did you always know you wantedto do sex therapy, or was it
just therapy?
Speaker 1 (10:42):
I think it probably started as just therapy, but I
do think later in high schoolthe sexuality stuff was always
an interest.
So when I started in college Iwas always looking for classes
around that topic and working atthe sex health resource center.
So I think I knew pretty earlyon that that was like the path.
Um, both personally andprofessionally, interested me,
(11:06):
um, and so I just kind of becamethe person that people would
often talk to about that stuffor have conversations with that
they wouldn't normally have.
And I think that, mixed withthat sort of attraction to the
taboo um, kept me interested.
Because the more I went throughthe process, the more I
realized people didn't want totalk about it and people
struggle to talk about it andexplore their bodies, their
(11:29):
pleasure, communicate aboutthese things.
So the more I saw that therewas pushback, the more I wanted
to do it.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, Still on brand for you.
Still on brand.
Okay, We'll get there, have you?
So?
So I don't know if you'velistened to me talk, but you
know me in life, so you knowthere's going to be a lot of
side side combos happening.
Um, have you ever taken theerotic blueprint test?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I have.
I use it a lot Shout out to MsJaya and um, I use it a lot with
clients.
I have found it to be sohelpful to help partners better
understand each other and kindof diminish this assumption
around like high libido, lowlibido.
So I love it.
What do you think mine is?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I think it's.
I think it's like kinky a kinkysexual.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
So I'm like a kinky sensual, I would say.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Okay Okay, I was.
It was there Cause I was likethis bitch also likes cute
little soft, woo things.
But totally Okay, okay I was.
It was there Cause I was likethis bitch also likes cute
little soft, woo things.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
But totally the other side.
Um yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
I took it.
I took it again today.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
You did.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
I'm so kinky I said yeah is that a surprise?
I was like nope, I was likestill me.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Absolutely, and I think the blueprint can can
often show up with who we are inour life.
So I'm the kinky blueprintwhich again is around that you
know sort of what's taboo,what's shameful, what's kind of
novel in that way, and I feelsensual as well because I can
get anxious, I can get in myhead and I do like kind of the
(13:05):
artistry of an experience andthe slowness and my nervous
system really likes to create anexperience and it does like
sort of a slow approach for mostthings.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Sure, that was just the first side, just because I
wanted to know.
So today we're really going totalk a bit more about pelvic
pain and medical trauma and Ilike to ask my guests what do
you want to talk about?
I don't want people to be happyhere, consent, why did you want
to talk about this today?
Speaker 1 (13:45):
been going through myself.
That has been a big struggle,but it's also kind of become
something that I've started tospecialize in with clients and
it was sort of I don't want tosay by accident.
I mean, I was aware of it, Ilearned about this, but I ended
up, you know, working with a lotof people who are sexual
medicine specialists and pelvicfloor therapists and I just kept
getting referrals for this anda lot of the people I see with
(14:07):
vulvas and vaginas though it canaffect all pelvises and all
genitals.
That's just who I see a lot of.
So many people have pain I thinkit's like one in four people
with vaginas experience pelvicpain, but the number is probably
a lot higher or pain with sex,because a lot of people think
it's normal, so the number isprobably higher.
So I wanted to talk about itbecause I'm seeing so much of it
(14:30):
.
It's such a systemic issue aswell, just in our medical system
and also because I'm kind ofliving through it and I'm
feeling passionate about it andhelping people learn to advocate
for themselves.
And just a topic people stillaren't talking about.
Most health providers don'thave any training on it.
(14:51):
So as many places as I can talkabout it.
I'm going to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Fabulous, let's talk about it.
Great.
When folks do come to you, arethey because you are a sex
therapist?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
And.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
And so do they.
Do they say, hey, I'm havingthese pains, or does it come
through in conversations aboutthem actually having sex?
Yeah, and not evenunderstanding the bigger issues.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
You know it's been a mix.
I think, now that I have workedwith a lot of folks like this,
I do get referrals from peoplewho already know they're having
pain and they've been referredto me by their pelvic floor
therapist, their gynecologist,some specialist.
But the other half, I would say, come in and they don't even
know they're having pain.
And so they come in and they'retelling me I have low libido or
(15:38):
I don't want to have sex withmy partner, and I ask a lot of
questions.
But one of the first questionsI ask is well, do you experience
, have you experienced any painwith sex?
And they're like oh yeah, itreally hurts, like when they
first put it in, but like that'snormal, right.
And so a lot of times, um, Ithink because especially people
with vaginas in our culture aretaught that being a woman or
(16:03):
being a person with vagina isjust normal to be in pain and
have discomfort and to notreally be heard and believed
around that.
And so a lot of folks that comein have just been grinning and
bearing a significant amount ofpain and discomfort and just
thinking it's normal, or they'vetalked to their OBGYN about it
and they've been like, oh, haveyou tried lube and that's kind
of it.
(16:23):
And then the more it happens,the more traumatic it becomes,
because their body's tensing inwaiting for the pain to happen,
which creates more pain, to thepoint where some of their desire
libido is just like shut off.
And so a lot of people willcome in and haven't even been
asked the question, and thenwhen we get into it, they're
(16:45):
like oh my gosh, I'm having painand it's like a light bulb,
which is wild to me.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Yeah, that is such a thing Like we're taught like the
first time you have sex it'sprobably going to hurt.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, your period is supposed to be really painful
and just cripple you for a week.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
It's just like sets you up to be like.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
this is going to suck Everything about my future
sucks and sex should only hurtunless you're kinky like me and
Jim and you want it to.
So you know it should only hurtif you want it to and if it's
planned and if you'reexperiencing you know pain with
it there might be somethinggoing on, and even with your
first time it doesn't have tohurt your first time, but most
(17:33):
of us don't have the knowledgeto have it not hurt.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah, let me take it back.
So did you start having yourown navigation of your body
before you started working withthese individuals, or did you
take your own experience toreally want you to work more
with these individuals?
I mean not want to, but they,they're finding you for a reason
.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yeah, you know it wasn't something that I knew I
was experiencing before.
I don't think I wasexperiencing it.
Um, it just kind of ended upbeing something that I was able
to really work with people on.
I think too, uh, because ofsome of my other interests and
specializations just aroundadvocacy work and healthcare and
like holistic mind, body,spirit, you know,
(18:10):
biopsychosocial wellness, and somy pain and stuff didn't happen
until this last year or two.
So I was familiar with all thestuff because of the work that I
had done, but now I experienceit myself After 30,.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
my body started being like hey, have you felt this
before?
Figure it out.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
You're like what I know and it's all happening at
once and it's oh yeah, ourmedical system is really really
tough in navigating some ofthese chronic conditions.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, when folks do come to you and you know when
they do come to you and theyknow what the struggle is as a
sex therapist, because you'renot, you're not touching them.
I'm assuming you are not,you're not touching.
Let's be clear everyone.
There's no touching here inthat support.
And there are PT folks that dodo that.
How do you support theseindividuals as a therapist?
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yeah, I mean I would say first.
First, we're doing a lot oflike resourcing, like I want to
know what their current toolsare, if any.
I want to know, like how theirnervous system is doing.
You know, I really want toapproach it as much as I can
from a trauma informed space tojust kind of know, to get to
know their nervous system.
What are we working with?
Where are things at right now?
(19:30):
Then I would say it's a lot ofpsychoeducation, so education
around the psychology of pain,around painful sex and pelvic
pain.
And then it's a lot of meworking with other practitioners
too, because obviously I canonly really help with the
psychological piece.
I can provide education andsome referrals.
So usually then my first stepif I hear pain is I will refer
(19:54):
them to a sexual medicinespecialist.
So this is someone who'susually a urologist or a
gynecologist who has specializedsexual medicine training,
because most healthpractitioners do not have
specialized training in this.
And the group Tight Lipped,which is a great advocacy group
(20:16):
around pelvic pain that y'allshould check out.
I think they did a study thatsaid, on average, people with
pelvic pain see about 15 doctorsfirst before they get a
diagnosis and get the care thatthey need, which is so
inaccessible for most people,cost-wise and otherwise.
So my first step is to send themto a specialist so we can
(20:37):
really know what's physicallygoing on, so that I know how I
can best support them.
So sometimes it's helping withhelping them find their voice so
that they can advocate forthemselves and have tools and
resources to take care of theirnervous system before, during
and after doctor's appointments,especially if their doctor is
not collaborative with them.
(20:59):
So it's a lot of that.
It's a lot of finding creativenew ways to experience pleasure
and it's a lot of re-narratingaround, helping people feel
pleasure-able now and feelinginto the new story that pleasure
is something that is, I believe, like a human right but also a
(21:21):
medicine and a tool for healing,as opposed to only something
that we get to have when we'reall healed up.
So you know, different clientsare going to do different things
, but I would say these are kindof the main themes of where we
start.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
You know, it's so interesting that for a long time
I didn't even know there werepelvic therapists.
Right, most people don't.
These aren't the things thatwe're taught, right.
And like I was visiting myfriend Hunter in New Mexico and
I was like listen, tmi, and Istarted like laughing and like
peeing at myself recently.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
And I was like that's another fun over 30 thing too,
huh.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Excuse me, laughing and like peeing on myself
recently and I was like, excuseme, and so my friend is a PT,
and she was like, do you mind?
I said, sure, don't, let me getup on this table, okay.
Have a look, Looped up withsome gloves.
She felt around.
She said oh, you're doing toomany Kegels.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yes, which I think.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
So then it's then it's more tight than it needs to
be, but it's also weak Tootight, Too tight and weak which
I think is a conversation we canhave, is we're taught like well
, here's this thing.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, you want to have a tight vagina.
Do some kegels.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
But there can be too much.
Yes and I think that's theconversation that we can also
engage in is like you can overdoit with trying to do everything
, like when you're trying to fixthings.
Have you met individuals thatare like I've done this and this
and this and this and thisthing.
You're like what?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah, well, and most of the time, what they're doing
is sort of a one size fits allthing that has to do with, like
a cultural norm that they'vebeen told, such as doing kegels.
Some people absolutely do needto work their PT muscles, their
muscles in their pelvis, butit's not something that
(23:16):
everybody needs or should bedoing, and so that's something
that you can figure out with apelvic floor therapist, with a
sexual medicine specialist, totell you what your body actually
needs, and so, yeah, I seepeople sometimes doing a lot of
things, but they haven'tnecessarily gone to a doctor or
a healthcare provider who'staken the time to actually see
(23:37):
them as a whole unique,integrated individual, to help
them figure out what is best forthem, as opposed to you know,
just this.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Yeah, this one size fits all thing, yeah you kind of
brought it up, and this issomething that I talk about a
lot, a lot with trauma survivorsand that is medical trauma.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
The idea of going to the doctors is so scary for a
lot of people, especially thoseof us that have vulvas and
vaginas or identify as women,because we're often not believed
.
What do you?
Can you explain what medicaltrauma is, just so folks can
understand, and maybe some ofthe things that you know?
You have had to work withclients around when even just
(24:22):
going to the doctors, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
I mean again, I want to maybe describe it broadly
because I think there's so manythings that it can be.
So I think first there arefolks who are part, of, you know
, minority or marginalizedpopulations who just have
systemic trauma and fear aroundthe medical system, whether
that's folks of color who knowthat their ancestors were
(24:45):
non-consensually tested upon andthey don't trust the system, or
people who just know that maybethe system was not created for
them, people who just know thatmaybe the system was not created
for them.
Then we're looking at peoplewho have had negative
experiences themselves.
So I see a lot of folks againin marginalized populations
queer folks, other LGBT folks,trans folks who have gone to
(25:09):
doctors where they have beenmisgendered, where they have not
been treated well, where theyhave been misgendered, where
they have not been treated well,where they have been asked
questions that you know didn'tfeel right for them and you know
the healthcare practitionersjust weren't informed about how
to work with non-monogamous,queer, whatever population, and
so they stopped going becausethey weren't happy or
(25:31):
comfortable with the care theywere getting.
So that could be trauma.
And then I think we have folkswho have, you know, if they're
experiencing pain.
So for pelvic pain inparticular, the most common one
that I see, in addition to allthose intersections I just
listed before, is folks who havegone to a OBGYN and look,
(25:53):
obgyns are great, they do anamazing service.
Not everyone can learn all thespecializations in all the
things, but it's a real problemin our whole country that
there's not a better paineducation and trauma-informed
care.
And so what I see happening alot is folks will go to
non-trauma or pain-informedproviders.
(26:15):
Those providers will forciblyuse a speculum for someone who's
already experiencing pain to doa pelvic exam, or they will use
some kind of ultrasound and theperson is in excruciating pain.
They're not firstly asked,there's not really consent and
explanation of what they'redoing or expectation of what
(26:35):
it's going to hurt.
Or they might say, oh, you'llfeel slight pressure and the
person's in big pain.
And then we have this powerdynamic where, especially if
you're in trauma response.
But for anybody even myself I'min this field it is fucking hard
to speak to a doctor who's inthis power position and say no,
that's not right, or thatdoesn't feel right for me, or,
(26:58):
um, I have some questions andyou know they're like maybe
don't have the time or don'tknow how to answer, or just are
like I'm the doctor, I'm right,um and so that can be traumatic,
dismissive, so people can gointo appeasement at any of the
survival responses and so thenthey're having this ongoing
thing where they're not feelinglistened to, they're not feeling
(27:18):
heard, they're experiencingpain, they're not getting their
questions answered and it'straumatic.
So then they start dreadinggoing to the doctor.
The other layer I see for folkswith chronic pain is they're
just fucking tired of going tothe goddamn doctor, like, even
if they're getting great care,to be poked and prodded and
(27:41):
clinical and be a patient.
It's exhausting and to try toimagine that this body is
capable of pleasure when, like,the majority of what you're
experiencing is doctor'sappointments and clinical
medical stuff.
The majority of what you'reexperiencing is doctor's
appointments and clinicalmedical stuff that can feel
(28:04):
traumatic too.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
So long answer to say that there's so many layers,
and I see this a lot.
Yeah, it is a thing that reallydoes have a lot of layers and
shouldn't right Like why is thisso hard all the time?
Like it should be morecollaborative.
It doesn't feel like you'reeven led into your own medical
care?
often, when you do work withfolks, are there certain
(28:25):
diagnosis that they are given,that they can finally go, that
they can latch onto?
I know a lot of us are that arein pain, which I'm a human in
pain.
Quite often we spend so muchtime and energy, like you said,
trying to figure out what thefuck is going on and to finally
get a name for it.
How has that been working withindividuals?
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yeah, like what kind of diagnoses I'm seeing.
So I think first I'll say ifsomeone's going to someone
that's maybe not, you know,pelvic pain informed, they might
not get one, they might justget the.
Have you drank?
Have you had a glass of wine?
Try some wine, maybe some lube?
Are you relaxed?
You know, just try relaxing.
And I think we all know whenyou tell someone to relax, that
(29:08):
makes me want to relax quicklyand be fine.
Quickly and be fine.
That's actually.
I only need one session withevery client, I see, because I
just say have you tried notbeing upset?
And then that's all they need.
It's a wonder.
Yeah, it's wild, you know Ijust churn them in and out.
Um, so, you know they oftenwon't get a diagnosis, but when
(29:29):
they finally do, probably andagain, I know we're talking
about people with vulvas andvaginas, but there's pain that
can happen for all kinds offolks, all kinds of genitals,
and so for people with penises,common ones can be also, you
know, a tight pelvic floor,people carrying a lot of tension
in their pelvic floor which canaffect ejaculation erection.
(29:51):
It can also be indicative oflike a cardiovascular thing
going on or something calledPeyronie's, which is like a
fibroid, fibrosis issue of thepenis, of the tissue.
So there's some there.
Obviously, for folks who aretrans, non-binary, if they've
had any sort of affirmingsurgeries, there can be, you
(30:13):
know, medical trauma as well asscar tissue and things going on
there.
If they haven't had, you know,affirming surgeries, it could be
the tension they're carrying intheir pelvis because of not
feeling aligned with theirgenitals and their gender.
For people with vulvas andvaginas, endometriosis is a big
(30:34):
one that I see this is a veryoversimplifying definition but
basically when tissue in thepelvic area is growing outside
of where it should be.
But it can also happen all overthe body, so it's like tissue
growing where it's not supposedto causing pain.
Another big one is this amouthful hormone mediated
(31:00):
vestibulodynia.
This basically basically meansyeah, it's not as not sexy as it
sounds.
It basically means hormones arecausing pain at the vestibule.
The vestibule is the entranceof the vagina.
This is often caused by somekind of hormonal thing going on,
(31:22):
which I see a lot for folks whohave been on long-term hormonal
birth control.
So that affects that's probablythe biggest one that I see for
people that I work with.
There are other things that cango on with the tissue with the
nerves.
Some people have like neuralgiagoing on, like a compression or
(31:44):
issue in the sensitivity of thenerves.
Some people have stuff going onwith their microbiome that's
affecting consistent infections.
So it can really be a varietyof things.
So get yourself evaluated tofigure out what's going on for
you.
And the thing with pain is,even if it starts as like a
physical diagnosis, it's oftenmaintained by psychological and
(32:09):
sociocultural stuff.
So you know, even once thephysical is treated, cultural
stuff.
So you know, even once thephysical is treated, ideally the
treatment team consists of aphysical therapist, a sex
medicine specialist and atherapist, so we can get the
whole person and the whole humanhealing, which is not
accessible for everybody and alot of times insurances won't
(32:30):
cover what's needed or or thosespecialists won't take insurance
won't cover what's needed orthose specialists won't take
insurance, isn't that?
Speaker 2 (32:38):
great.
Yeah, such a fun fuck.
It's so fun, but there are-.
You fight to get insurance andit doesn't work.
You're like cute, I love it.
Thank you so much for taking mymoney for nothing.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
I know and all the people that I, for me, end up
seeing are oftentimes people outof pocket, because they're the
ones who have the time to spendtime with you and hear about
what's going on, which is thisis a systemic issue.
Luckily, there are groups likeTightlipped and others that are
fighting for advocacy and tryingto change some of these things,
but dang, it is frustrating.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, I want to ask one question that I kind of want
to ask.
Let's talk through some myths.
Is all pain bad?
Speaker 1 (33:21):
No Period.
That's it Complete sentence.
Thank you, yeah that's it, we'reall done.
I'd love to hear your answer onthis too.
I would say, in short, no.
What I mean by no is that Ithink not I think, but I know
that pain can be a reallyimportant indicator and
(33:42):
barometer, like a warning lightto tell us when something isn't
right.
And so I think I read it a longtime ago, but I think my
therapist a long time ago toldme to read the Gift of Fear or
something like that.
I had mixed feelings about it,but I think it was all to say
that sometimes our bodies have alot to tell us and we need to
(34:05):
listen to them.
Sure, sometimes the messagesare coming from maybe an old
trauma place, but other timesit's giving us an indication.
So pain could be telling youthat something's going too fast,
that something's not right,that you need support.
It could be something that youdo intentionally because you
like the way it feels.
It could be.
I don't think that feelings andsensations are good or bad.
(34:28):
I think that they aresensations that can give us
information and to be curiousabout.
So certainly, if you'reexperiencing pain that is
unwanted, I would get it checkedout.
And that doesn't mean that paindoesn't have a message or a
purpose or something to tell us.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
What do you think?
How did you get to?
I agree with you but before Iforget this question how did you
get to not thinking things aregood or bad?
I mean, I don't think that'slike a thing.
We all think where it has to beone or the other.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
I think, in all transparency, I'm still working
on with myself and the trainingsI've done to support my clients
.
It's just been an ongoing thingto get curious and to give us,
to give us information, and so Idon't know if I am there, even
within myself.
I think it's something I'mstill practicing.
(35:30):
But I think trying to detachyourself from the story can be
really helpful.
But in order to shift our story, we have to change our state.
And so I think it was Deb Dana,like a trauma specialist, who
said story follows state, whichmeans like whatever state we're
(35:54):
in is going to affect themeaning and the story of
something that we'reexperiencing.
And so, for me, I think, whenI'm in a certain state that's
able like a rest and digest, asocially engaged state, I'm able
to be like oh, I'm having asensation that's interesting,
I'm going to be curious about it.
Versus, if I'm in like fight orflight, or stressed, and I have
(36:15):
a feeling I'm probably going tobe like it's bad, it's all bad,
it's all bad, we're all goingto die, you know so, and it
could be the same sensation.
So I would say for me, me oncea week.
I mean, yeah, that's what I'msaying.
I'm working on it myself, butif I can, as I've been trying to
shift my internal states, it'saffected the way I can look at
(36:36):
those things when I'm not in asurvival, fight or flight space.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Yeah, I love that.
I am a curious human.
That's why I asked.
But I agree with you.
I don't think that all pain isbad.
I think that we are fed thatpain is all bad in somewhat of a
controlling way.
I don't, I can't, I don't havethe energy to flush that out,
but I feel like I'm a liar.
Here we go, I feel like as thoseof us that you know were, you
(37:07):
know identify as women havevaginas, have vulvas, like we
are set up to, like think thatbeing us is so hard and painful,
like there's no joy in all ofthese things Right, which I
think is kind of really shittythat we're set up to just be
like.
You're getting your period, areyou okay?
Like that's like the start ofit.
(37:27):
It just gets downhill from ohno, you're getting little
breasts.
People's tones change, the waythat we are held, the way that
we are held, the way that we'retalked to.
It's like a fucked up, weirdstart.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah well, yeah, and then and then the way that
people emphasize the no pain, nogain.
So there is this also likething in our culture that's like
, oh, you can only find, youknow, strength and healing and
growth if you go through painright, or like just just grin
and bear it, you know, justwhite knuckle it, like pain
(37:59):
builds character.
So I think our culture can alsogo to the other extreme, where
then we're dealing with immenseamounts of pain and thinking
it's normal.
So I don't know, I've seen itswing both ways, where it's like
sure, yeah, it's either like areally good thing that builds
character or like something thatis bad.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
And also those conversations when I really pull
back are very gendered.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, the no pain, no gain is more for men, cis men,
right?
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
And then I'm like, because we were taught, oh, it's
gonna be so sad you, you betterget up like the energy right.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
A whole, nother, whole, nother convo yeah, but go
into, but there is a genderedpiece here, absolutely yeah,
yeah, even even as the myth themyths.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Let's get into some this.
I pulled some up on differentwebsites um myth.
You can tell me your thought onthem.
You could tell me true, you cansay false, however you want to
respond.
Okay, we're open.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Oh, I just got anxious.
What is it?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
It's just different questions, like people have said
.
No, I know.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Just like I'm noticing that I got into, like
my test body, which is like Isaw it you did I need extended
time?
Speaker 2 (39:15):
I have ADHD.
What is going to happen?
See, this is real time.
Y'all this is real life MythMen don't have pelvic floor
muscles.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
It's a myth that they don't.
So they do have pelvic floormuscles.
Yes, yes, people with allgenitals have a lot.
Again, this is a little bit outof my scope so I can't do it
justice, but there are a lot ofmuscle groups that are part of
our pelvic bowl, our pelvicfloor, that all genders have and
(39:44):
that deserve care just like anyother muscles.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
And maybe a little bit more, because I just told
y'all I'm a happy person.
I was laughing and tinkling atthe same time, so I don't know
yeah, which is?
It says something's going onyeah, which is my next myth
pelvic floor issues only affectolder individuals.
False, that's not true, nottrue.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Well, I mean, we are old, untrue.
We are older individuals.
I not older, I feel like anolder individual.
No, it can affect people of allages and there's lots of
traumas that can happen to thatpart of the body at any age
(40:28):
pelvic floor is normal, is anormal part of aging um, like
our pelvic floor is a normalpart of aging.
Pelvic pain, oh pelvic pain.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Maybe I say again maybe I didn't fully read it
it's also a fall.
Okay, pelvic pain is a normalpart of aging.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Um, yes, no, and so I would say um, people definitely
can experience more pain as thetissues thin, as the tissues
change as we age, they can needmore care.
That does not mean that youhave to tolerate it without
support and intervention.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Sure.
And last one pelvic floorsupport only matters after
giving birth tissue connected toso many things in your body.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
That deserves care and knowledgeable intervention
at all stages in life.
And I wish it was required tohave pelvic floor, which again
is physical therapy for thepelvic region, to have pelvic
floor therapy before and afterbirth.
And a lot of people don't knowthat, a lot of people don't get
it, and then they have pelvicfloor dysfunction and are like
what's going on?
Why am I laughing and peeing?
(41:56):
Why am I, you know, feeling, um, uh, a shift in my experience
with pleasure during penetration, um, all these kinds of things.
So scar tissue if you have aC-section, um, so please do
yourself a favor and do it now,even if there's not an issue.
See how things are going, howyou can be preventative,
proactive, and also, if you'replanning to have some kind of a
(42:20):
birth process, consider itbefore and after that is such a
thing that they don't reallyfocus on.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
I feel like often those that have children like
it's focused on the children andnot on the care of the person
that the little human grewinside.
So, having that information, Ireally do wish that more folks
knew about it.
I do think that because of ourgood girlfriend's social media,
which is where we're going here,I want to break up.
There's a lot more.
You know same.
(42:54):
She and I have had a rough time.
I think I'm being suppressedagain on the internet, but
that's fine.
That means I'm doing my jobWith social media, with our good
girlfriend TikTok and Instagramand Twitter.
Because we're not calling itthat letter.
There's a lot of peopleInstagram and Twitter because
(43:15):
we're not calling it that letter.
There's a lot of people thathave a lot of opinions and
thoughts.
Do you think social media ishelpful?
Speaker 1 (43:18):
or harmful.
I think it can be both.
I guess it's sort of the way Iview anything is that depends on
how you use it.
I do think it has given peopleaccess to a lot of things and
information that they maybewouldn't otherwise.
To help them find community, tohelp them feel normal, to help
them learn about things they maynot otherwise.
(43:39):
And then, on the flip side, Ithink it's really hard for the
consumer and the young peoplewho aren't taught comprehensive
sex education or mental healtheducation to decipher, maybe how
it's impacting them, what'smaybe feeling harmful, what's
causing more body image issues,more isolation.
I think a lot of us use it in adissociative way.
(44:02):
That's not super intentional,and I think there's a lot of
people out there who are callingthemselves experts that maybe
don't have the knowledge, theexperience, to be calling
themselves that and are justpreaching their opinions, which,
um, you know you can share youropinion, but for people who
don't have a discerning lens ora broader knowledge, I think it
(44:24):
can be dangerous and harmful.
Um, I definitely think it'sbeen harmful for people in like
comparison culture and beingpresent with like what life
actually is and looking at sortof like a false reality.
So I think I've seen it have alot of support and I've also
seen it be detrimental.
So it depends.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Why do you want to break up with her?
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Because I'm feeling that push pull as well.
Why do you want to break upwith her?
Because I'm feeling that pushpull as well.
I'm feeling I've been trying tolike stop doing things that I
don't feel excited about, and Idefinitely don't feel excited
about it.
Certainly, you can try to bringin people to help, but it's it
gets costly, um, and I think,yeah, it just doesn't feel quite
(45:10):
real.
It feels, um, like I'm justhaving to, I don't know.
It almost feels like an abusiverelationship a little bit,
where there's like this entity,this Mark Zuckerberg entity,
that like I need them to survive.
I don't feel like I can leavethem because I'm supposed to be
doing this and they can justlike take, they can just like
pull the rug out from under meat any time.
(45:32):
Um, if we were talking aboutlike a relationship like that,
that does not sound like ahealthy, fulfilling relationship
to me.
So when I think about itrelationally, it is not.
It doesn't feel very good, butagain it feels stuck Like well,
what else, you know?
Are there other ways?
But for me, I'm really tryingto spend some more time focusing
(45:53):
on my own health and all thestuff we talked about in this
episode.
I'm starting to wonder if it'simportant to me anymore.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Yeah, yeah, it is a weird thing, like everyone's
like you should do TikTok, youshould do this.
Let me tell everyone, and Ilike to remind folks I fucking
hate unsolicited advice.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Leave me alone, I'm tired she does, she does leave
me alone don't tell her to callit x I hate it, I do that same
thing, that's my little picky,the fuck you attitude.
It's like I will not thank youfor your suggestion.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Yeah, also, our birthdays are very close.
We're a lot of the same.
There are a lot of individualsand I'm glad you hit that little
nail on the head.
Everyone's a fucking expert onthe internet.
I don't even like being calledan expert.
They've done it so much.
I have the ick and I've beenstudying psychology since I was
(46:49):
16.
Ew, I hate the word.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
Yeah, it's a little bit like beware the Buddha on
the road or whatever.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Have you found, though, good information around,
like pelvic floor stuff thatyou do refer clients to, or
practices, or anything like that?
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Uh, lipped, I think you found them on the internet.
I think I found them throughcolleagues and maybe a client.
So again, their advocacyeducation group.
They also do support groups,get togethers, meetups, podcasts
, so I really like referring tothem.
Around some of the pelvic painstuff.
(47:32):
There's definitely some otherphysical therapists I can't
think of them right now but Ican give a list to folks if they
want.
But there certainly are somereally wonderful ones out there.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Yeah, how would you tell folks as someone that does
sometimes get into the scrollthings like how are there any
tips to decipher if the personactually knows what the fuck
they're talking about?
Speaker 1 (47:58):
Good question, Gosh.
I don't know if I know how toanswer that.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
That's okay, that's an answer.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
I think my answer is to get a few different inputs of
information and, you know, becurious about where this person
just got their training and,again, I know people who have
gotten great training and Iwould not send people to them.
So also that that's hard.
I think it's having some kindof check and balance and I do,
(48:31):
like you said, like people whoaren't just like expert expert
but seem to be continuing tolearn, continuing to offer
updated versions of things butget a couple different inputs so
that it's not just like one oneinput.
Yeah, but that's a hard one, Idon't know.
(48:51):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (48:54):
I also.
I'm listen.
I love to use my goodgirlfriend, google, because
she's free, and I'm like who isthis?
Let me go and look them up.
Even people that work with me.
I'm always like look me up, youshould know who you're working
with.
You should know whose adviceyou're taking, because there is
a lot of people that have adviceand not expertise and not
(49:14):
knowledge.
Yeah, so I would say, sure, ifyou like what they're saying and
it connects with you, I thinkthat's also a start, feeling
that aha moment of like, oh shit, I've never heard it in a way
that maybe it's digestible forme to understand.
But then I would also go and dowhatever research I can.
You already have a computer inyour hand.
(49:35):
Just do that extra step foryourself.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
Yeah, I mean this is sort of a harder answer and a
longer process.
But I do work a lot with peoplewith helping them what we call
like find their yes and their no, to help them sort of trust
their body messages right, likewhat is my body telling me, and
to trust that feeling that weget around people that maybe
give us the yes or give us theno and to slow down enough to
(49:59):
really feel into those andfigure out those sensations.
So that's sort of a longeranswer is to maybe get some
therapy support to help youbuild a better trusting
relationship with your body'sresponses so that if and when
you have you're checking out anew person, to take the time to
(50:20):
sit back and be like how do Iactually feel listening or
looking at this person's stuff?
Is it giving me yes, vibes?
Is it giving me no?
Is it giving me?
I'm not sure I need moreinformation, vibes.
Is it giving me no?
Is it giving me?
I'm not sure I need moreinformation.
So I'd say that's another one.
But that's a, that's a longer,lifelong process of kind of
getting to know thecommunications of our body which
(50:41):
are sometimes in conflict withour brain.
So it's a, that's a that's aprocess, but one that I would
invite people to be curious andinquire about people to be
curious and inquire about.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
Yeah, how is your mental health as you navigate
all these things?
We always talk about otherindividuals as providers.
I'm always like how's yourbrain, how's your heart?
What's happening over there?
Because we're not asked enough.
People are always puttingthings on us and forgetting that
we're also humans.
It's so wild.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
I saw a funny little clip on TikTok or something the
other day.
That was like two mental healthproviders like trying to catch
up and ask each other abouttheir lives, and it was just
this ping pong of like, no, no,no, how are you doing?
Like, how are things feelingfor you?
Yeah, how are you doing?
Because we're like, yeah, itcan be hard to flip the script,
(51:35):
man, I'm a work in progress, Iam doing a lot of my own therapy
, I'm doing a lot of my own carestuff and it is hard to be a
human.
You know, I I certainly don'tuse my therapy sessions with my
clients as my personal therapy,but I do get real with clients,
like being no, don't do that,but I am, you know, more
transparent than the oldFreudian.
You know blank slate approachof like, yeah, being a human is
(51:56):
hard, like oh, yeah, that'ssomething I've struggled with
and here's some of the thingsthat I've been doing to work
through that like when it ishelpful for the client.
I will self disclose, not intoo much detail, but I'll be a
real, a real human with them.
So, like I'm doing okay, like Ihave a lot of the tools and
resources, it is hard to makethe time to do all the things.
(52:19):
Some of the it feels like afull-time job.
It is a full-time job sosometimes I would love the
opportunity to just have myhealth and wellness be my
full-time job, get paid to do it, which it like half is, but,
you know, not quite.
So work in progress, trying tofind better balance and time
(52:41):
management, which is hard for aADHD person like me that wants
to do all the things.
As you know, it can be hard to,you know, find the time to do
all the stuff I want to do andmake sure that I'm prioritizing
taking care of myself.
So I'm really working on it formyself and to model that for my
(53:01):
clients.
But it is a work in progressand it is hard when we're up
against so many systemicsocietal things that are not set
up to prioritize a life thatprioritizes that kind of
wellbeing.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
Yeah, this was fun.
I people, people are alwayslike you have such hard comments
.
I'm like they're so fun.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
That's the kinky in us.
We're like let's talk about theshadow.
Give me trauma.
Speaker 2 (53:30):
It's so good?
I also think because we're verycomfortable in the
uncomfortable, even if it makesus squirmy, because we're so
inquisitive humans.
This is why we get along.
Speaker 1 (53:42):
It's like this is weird, but have you thought
about this?
This is weird, but can you lookat my vagina?
Speaker 2 (53:49):
Why not?
We got gloves.
Can I use your lube?
Thanks, that is interestingsomething.
Before we wrap up here, um, I'dlove for you to speak to a
little bit about like safety.
Um, you know, for a lot offolks you know going to the
doctors it's.
It's also like a safety feeling.
(54:09):
You know navigating pelvic pain.
It it might be because ofsexual harm or whatever, or just
because whatever, but there's alot of safety that comes to my
brain.
As we've had this conversationexternally and internally, which
is the way that I kind of lookat it, does that come up in
sessions for you?
Have you had to navigatethrough any of that for yourself
(54:32):
as well?
Speaker 1 (54:34):
Absolutely.
I would say a big part of thework is helping people find.
People who have experienced alot don't feel safe, feeling
safe.
So what I mean by that is, ifyou've experienced a lot of
(55:02):
stuff, your body has learnedthat it should be on guard,
waiting for the next thing.
That isn't safe isn't safe.
And so a lot of the work that Ido is, you know, trying to help
people or giving peopleresources to feel safe again in
being safe, which is why I'vebeen trying to do a lot more you
know, trauma, trauma trainingsto really help with that for
(55:24):
myself and with clients.
But yeah, safety is huge andthat's kind of the one of the
first things that I have to dowith clients is how do we build
a sense of safety with eachother in this relationship by
having consistent care so we cando the work.
Speaker 2 (55:42):
Yeah, I just wanted to touch on that Cause I know a
lot of folks that have had, youknow, different types of trauma.
They're like I don't trustanyone, so no, thank you.
Speaker 1 (55:50):
Yeah, yeah, which, which, for them, has probably
kept them safe when it needed to, but it might not be working
anymore.
What the body needs?
Speaker 2 (55:58):
Sure, and I think there's.
You know, when you say likeit's not working anymore, things
change.
Like you evolve the things thatmaybe you needed before you,
you don't need as much or you'reable to navigate easier.
Right, Exactly.
Okay, We've gotten to the lastquestion, which is my favorite
question because nosy.
Speaker 1 (56:19):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
What is the wildest thing?
That someone has texted or DMGin the last two weeks?
Speaker 1 (56:27):
Oh, gosh, it's hard to think of the last two weeks,
but I'll give you a good onethat comes to my mind from my,
from the archives and okay.
So luckily it's been bettersince I'm like licensed and have
learned you know betterboundaries, but you know, when I
first and again, nothing'sreally crazy to me anymore
(56:49):
because I'm like I see peoplepeopling all the time, so I'm
not like shocked and you knowwhatever.
But back in the day I used toget what I would call creepy
callers, which was people whoweren't really looking for
therapy, who wanted to push theboundaries of how they talked
about sex, which can be hardbecause sometimes people call a
therapist and they're going totalk about some explicit stuff
(57:10):
and it's like part of whythey're coming to see you.
But I had this one person whogot creepy afterwards and got a
little stalkery, which was scary.
But the funny part was it thatbasically they first called me
and they said they werestruggling because they realized
that they liked the smell ofpublic bathrooms after people
(57:31):
would poop in them and I waslike, okay, that's a thing Like
tell me what.
Like you know, are you doing itethically?
Are you doing it consensually,cause that doesn't have to be a
problem, like you know find somepeople to let's let's figure
that out for you Um, and turnedinto them actually wanting to
come to session with me so Icould fart in the room with them
(57:54):
so that they could see if theyliked the way that I smelled and
part of me was like, well, Ifart every day.
Like how much?
Speaker 2 (58:04):
You're like well, well, let me, yeah, lights, I
like.
Speaker 1 (58:08):
Right, can't do that as a therapist.
But you know, I was like, Ithink I think, because of how
non shaming I am and how sexpositive I am, it wasn't the
reaction they wanted from me.
I think they wanted me to belike upset and bothered and
shocked, but instead I was likewell, look, I don't do that.
But you know, let me refer youto some of my colleagues who
(58:29):
will happily fart in your mouth,fart in your face, fart in a
jar, like what kind of farts areyou looking for, you know?
So I'm giving a whole list offarters.
Um, so I think they didn't wantthat.
You know, they wanted me to bepart of this shaming cycle of
like no, so mad.
So shout out to the fart loversout there.
That was a.
(58:49):
That's a good one.
That comes to my mind.
Uh, thank you for that gift.
Yeah, um, and just, ps, don'tsend me unsolicited dick pics.
Luckily I don't get much ofthose anymore, but now and then
I don't either.
Yeah, I got one guy who sent meone, with him next to a pringle
can, and just was like oh Ithink that photo too, yeah.
Speaker 2 (59:12):
Um, because everyone's not pulled out,
pringle cancel yeah oh man, Iget some.
We get some of those, but haveyou ever gotten a vulva, because
I've gotten a vulva before no,I haven't yeah, I sure did.
I said who coaches this?
Speaker 1 (59:25):
yeah, yeah, I've only gotten it once though oh, man,
man, it makes me want to bringup my they're all in the hidden
files.
Speaker 2 (59:39):
You're gonna be like.
I was just kidding, I actuallygot 50 over here.
Speaker 1 (59:42):
I know I'm like there's so many, oh shoot, okay,
well, next time, but now nowI'm just now they're just funny
at some point, still, doesn'tthem?
Speaker 2 (59:51):
no, thank you Now they're just funny at some point
.
Still don't send them.
No, thank you, I was going tosay something.
We're going to stop because Iwas going to say something wild
and that's not for your ears,it's just for hers.
Before you go, where can he,they, them, she, they, zee, them
, zee, zay, anybody?
Where can they find you?
(01:00:11):
Where can they find out whatyou're doing?
Keep up with you, listen tothings, give us your info.
Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
Thank you.
Y'all can find me at my website.
I'll give it to you to put inthe show notes
nicolettavheideggercom.
Please do join my newsletter.
I don't send a lot of stuff andspam, mostly just events I'm
doing, but I would say that'd bethe best way in case me and
social media do have a pause atsome point.
(01:00:37):
But for now I'm also on socialmedia at Sluts and Scholars,
which is the name of my podcast.
You can also find that atslutsandscholarscom or anywhere
you get your podcasts, or atTherapy with Nicoletta.
You can find all my links in mybios there.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
Yes, this was so fun.
Take what feels good for you.
Go do some research.
If we talked about somethingthat you are inquisitive about,
go use your good girlfriendGoogle.
She's free, but we're not,neither is our time.
So we will talk to you later,and until next time, thank you.
Nicoletta Hedger is a licensed marriage and family
therapist and award-nominatedsexologist practicing in Los
Angeles, california.
She specializes in sex therapyfor diverse populations, as well
as equine assistedpsychotherapy.
When not seeing clients,nicoletta creates weekly content
(00:33):
via her award nominated showSluts and Scholars a sex
positive, shame-free,educational podcast for
professionals, professionals whoprioritize pleasure Y'all.
We got Nicoletta Fabulous.
I'm looking forward to thisquestion and I know that there's
a lot of folks that probablyhave questions.
(00:53):
A lot of folks struggle withwhat we're talking about today,
so I'm excited for this talk.
But before we get into the talk, they've heard the bio.
They do all the things, but myguests know and if not, you're
going to learn.
I like to know directly who areyou?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Thank you for asking.
You know I'm trying to come upwith a better response to it
because I'm really tired ofanswering.
Who are you with what I do?
Because in our culture.
we're just like taught that.
So I feel like my preparedanswer is what I do, but I just
want to say that it's a work inprogress, because I think who I
(01:30):
am is is more than that.
Who I am is like someone who'sstruggling with her own health
stuff and someone who's tryingto figure it out, and a partner
and a daughter and a friend, andand someone who's a little
burnt out.
Um, what I do is, uh, also apart of who I am, but I'm a
licensed marriage and familytherapist and I specialize in
(01:52):
sex therapy.
Uh, and I also host a podcast,which you have been on and will
return to, called sluts andscholars, and, um, yeah, I, my
goal is to, you know, helppeople experience more people
experience more shame-freepleasure in their life and find
ways to better connect withthemselves.
And I also work with animals asan equine-assisted
(02:15):
psychotherapist, meaning we workwith horses to assist people in
their therapy journey and,hopefully, to assist the horses
in that as well.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
So that's who I am.
I love that.
I think that is so true.
We instantly go to how do wemake money, how do we survive?
Versus like this is who I am.
Vulnerability is scary forpeople.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, well, it's just in capitalism, right?
It's all about like, well, whatare you doing?
What are you producing?
What are you doing?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Status yeah, are you worth talking to?
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Exactly that's literally the question Are you
worth talking to?
Absolutely, and I've beenguilty of it too when I ask
people that.
So I'm trying to shift that andI've been starting to ask
people how do you like to spendyour time?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
But I don't know if that's.
I'm still working on it.
It is a question.
And also, when you answerhonestly, people ask like how
are you?
I'm like, eh, today's kind ofrough.
They're like I don't know whatto do with this.
You're supposed to say I'm fine.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
How about you yeah?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
I'm like, nah, it's kind of rough and they're going.
I'm sorry, I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, it's hard.
That's funny it is.
It is really hard.
How did we meet?
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Oh my gosh, I want to say we met when you used to do
the um survivor like cabaret, ohyes, back in the day.
Um, I think, yeah, I think wewe met that way.
Um, so it was a, it was areally fun thing, but just
through a lot of differentcolleagues and peers and friends
and the overlaps have continuedas we've known each other.
But dang, I mean, it's beenlike 10 years, we're old, I feel
(03:58):
old.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Let me tell you I'm so thankful.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
My knee hurts my back hurts, my body hurts, I feel I
am in it.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
What does trauma mean to you?
Speaker 1 (04:10):
For me, the way I describe it to clients and to
myself is really anything thatoverwhelms the nervous system,
that affects our ability to movethrough states the way that
ideally, our body needs to so tobe able to move in and out of
different states, includingsurvival states, but also
(04:31):
relational grounded states, allthose things.
So really I define it broadlyas anything that overwhelms the
nervous system that affects ourquality of life.
So obviously there's a lot ofpeople who want to create a
hierarchy of, like, big trauma,little trauma, one instance
versus, uh, ongoing relationalattachment trauma, uh, but I see
(04:52):
it affecting people a lot inthe same ways.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
um, so yeah, anything that overwhelms the system and
affects your, your quality of oflife and connection yeah, I
love asking people that becauseI think there's so many
different definitions dependingon who you are, and I think that
people assume well, if itdoesn't look like this, then
it's not trauma and it's likethat's not how it works.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Yeah, and you know, I mean I see this with my clients
all the time, where they'lllist out all these things that
like I mean, look, it's notnecessarily up to me to be like,
yes, that's trauma and it'saffecting you as PTSD.
But I often will give educationto help people get there and
understand it.
But people will list out thesethings that I'm like that's
trauma and they're telling mehow it's affecting their body
and I'm like that's traumaresponse and we, I educate them
(05:41):
and then and then they'll stillgo back to like, well, no, but
this didn't happen to me andthis didn't happen to me and I
wasn't in war and nobody rapedme, and I'm like, but still,
here you are in therapy, havingthese feelings and these
experiences and these struggles,and so, yeah, it's such a wide
(06:01):
experience for people who eitherare threatened, have perceived
threat and and are living inthat state more than they need
to be.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Which most of us fucking are, especially now.
But I digress, do that all day.
So, getting to this work thatyou do and part of the purpose
that I want to have thisconversation with my friends.
I want to have these talks withmy friends.
I want to have these talks withmy friends because I get to
learn more about them as well,thanks for being my friend,
(06:31):
you're welcome.
But I think there's also theparts that people like don't
know about the people I'mtalking to.
Like you didn't just wake up asex therapist who was younger
Nicoletta, because she was atime um like how did you get
here?
How did you like what wasteenage you like?
Let's just start there.
(06:52):
What a teenage you look likeyoung, wild and freya oh my gosh
.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Um, you know I'm lucky to have some uh views back
into that because this is awhole nother story, but I
actually did like a reality showwhen I was younger that never
got aired, so I have we'll haveto watch it I have some video,
uh, evidence and old my spacesand things like that to look
back and I I look back and I'mjust like oh my gosh, what is
(07:19):
going on with her?
Um, but I would say, you know, Ididn't want to be a poser,
right, I was like really intotrying to be like alternative
and not like the other posers,which probably made me a poser.
So I really liked, you know, Iwas into alternative music, I
liked shopping at Hot Topic, butthen I also had this other side
(07:39):
that really wanted to fit in.
So I had my juicy track suitand, you know, my Von Dutch hat
or whatever.
People who are of my era willunderstand what I mean.
But you know, it was this kindof push pull between like
wanting to be liked, wanting tofit in, but also like wanting to
be cool and alternative, andhad this kind of fuck you
attitude, which I think issomething that helped.
(08:00):
Yeah, it's something that helpedme get into sex therapy,
because I've always beeninterested in the taboo, the
things that we're not supposedto maybe like or talk about, and
so I definitely had some luckgrowing up and having some
supportive parents and peoplearound me who encouraged my
sexual and relational knowledgeand education to an extent more
(08:23):
than other folks, and so, yeah,starting in high school, I
became interested in talkingabout sexuality and my siblings
had a babysitter at the time whotaught me that she would never
hook up with anyone unless theywent and got tested together and
this was like such a novel ideafor my you know, 16 year old
(08:46):
self.
And then I started doing that inlate high school and through
college and it became a way forme to start having safer sex
conversations, before I evenreally knew what that was.
And it became like emotionalsafety as well, like is this
person willing to chat with meabout my needs and my comforts
and our um, our health status?
(09:07):
Um.
Then, by the time I got tocollege, I worked at the sexual
health resource center and umhad a column in the newspaper uh
called sex talks with the tree.
I was the mascot of my college,which was a tree, um pause.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
What do you mean?
It's a tree, so I went toStanford.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Their technical mascot is a color which is
really stupid the StanfordCardinal, which is a like a
reddish color, but theunofficial university mascot is
a tree.
And so at all the games, allthe football games, basketball
games, volleyball games,t-shirts, it's the tree.
And so that was me, my senioryear, and I used my tree, my
(09:58):
arboreal platform, to teachpeople about sex ed weekly in
the newspaper.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
I love this.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
teach people about sex ed weekly in the newspaper.
I love this.
But the other thing that thathelped me is I had my own
therapist growing up.
That my mother kind of forcedme to go to at 12, but I'm so
glad she did and that really ledme on the on the path I would
say.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
That's wild.
To like one the tree y'all.
Let's sit with the tree for amoment.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Cause what I think we .
Speaker 2 (10:24):
That's wild to like one the tree y'all.
Let's sit with the tree for amoment, because what I think we
have similarities in the sensethat our families let us be
ourselves and now we get to bethese fun weirdos that people
pay us to be.
I love that Totally.
Did you always know you wantedto do sex therapy, or was it
just therapy?
Speaker 1 (10:42):
I think it probably started as just therapy, but I
do think later in high schoolthe sexuality stuff was always
an interest.
So when I started in college Iwas always looking for classes
around that topic and working atthe sex health resource center.
So I think I knew pretty earlyon that that was like the path.
Um, both personally andprofessionally, interested me,
(11:06):
um, and so I just kind of becamethe person that people would
often talk to about that stuffor have conversations with that
they wouldn't normally have.
And I think that, mixed withthat sort of attraction to the
taboo um, kept me interested.
Because the more I went throughthe process, the more I
realized people didn't want totalk about it and people
struggle to talk about it andexplore their bodies, their
(11:29):
pleasure, communicate aboutthese things.
So the more I saw that therewas pushback, the more I wanted
to do it.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, Still on brand for you.
Still on brand.
Okay, We'll get there, have you?
So?
So I don't know if you'velistened to me talk, but you
know me in life, so you knowthere's going to be a lot of
side side combos happening.
Um, have you ever taken theerotic blueprint test?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I have.
I use it a lot Shout out to MsJaya and um, I use it a lot with
clients.
I have found it to be sohelpful to help partners better
understand each other and kindof diminish this assumption
around like high libido, lowlibido.
So I love it.
What do you think mine is?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I think it's.
I think it's like kinky a kinkysexual.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
So I'm like a kinky sensual, I would say.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Okay Okay, I was.
It was there Cause I was likethis bitch also likes cute
little soft, woo things.
But totally Okay, okay I was.
It was there Cause I was likethis bitch also likes cute
little soft, woo things.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
But totally the other side.
Um yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
I took it.
I took it again today.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
You did.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
I'm so kinky I said yeah is that a surprise?
I was like nope, I was likestill me.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Absolutely, and I think the blueprint can can
often show up with who we are inour life.
So I'm the kinky blueprintwhich again is around that you
know sort of what's taboo,what's shameful, what's kind of
novel in that way, and I feelsensual as well because I can
get anxious, I can get in myhead and I do like kind of the
(13:05):
artistry of an experience andthe slowness and my nervous
system really likes to create anexperience and it does like
sort of a slow approach for mostthings.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Sure, that was just the first side, just because I
wanted to know.
So today we're really going totalk a bit more about pelvic
pain and medical trauma and Ilike to ask my guests what do
you want to talk about?
I don't want people to be happyhere, consent, why did you want
to talk about this today?
Speaker 1 (13:45):
been going through myself.
That has been a big struggle,but it's also kind of become
something that I've started tospecialize in with clients and
it was sort of I don't want tosay by accident.
I mean, I was aware of it, Ilearned about this, but I ended
up, you know, working with a lotof people who are sexual
medicine specialists and pelvicfloor therapists and I just kept
getting referrals for this anda lot of the people I see with
(14:07):
vulvas and vaginas though it canaffect all pelvises and all
genitals.
That's just who I see a lot of.
So many people have pain I thinkit's like one in four people
with vaginas experience pelvicpain, but the number is probably
a lot higher or pain with sex,because a lot of people think
it's normal, so the number isprobably higher.
So I wanted to talk about itbecause I'm seeing so much of it
(14:30):
.
It's such a systemic issue aswell, just in our medical system
and also because I'm kind ofliving through it and I'm
feeling passionate about it andhelping people learn to advocate
for themselves.
And just a topic people stillaren't talking about.
Most health providers don'thave any training on it.
(14:51):
So as many places as I can talkabout it.
I'm going to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Fabulous, let's talk about it.
Great.
When folks do come to you, arethey because you are a sex
therapist?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
And.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
And so do they.
Do they say, hey, I'm havingthese pains, or does it come
through in conversations aboutthem actually having sex?
Yeah, and not evenunderstanding the bigger issues.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
You know it's been a mix.
I think, now that I have workedwith a lot of folks like this,
I do get referrals from peoplewho already know they're having
pain and they've been referredto me by their pelvic floor
therapist, their gynecologist,some specialist.
But the other half, I would say, come in and they don't even
know they're having pain.
And so they come in and they'retelling me I have low libido or
(15:38):
I don't want to have sex withmy partner, and I ask a lot of
questions.
But one of the first questionsI ask is well, do you experience
, have you experienced any painwith sex?
And they're like oh yeah, itreally hurts, like when they
first put it in, but like that'snormal, right.
And so a lot of times, um, Ithink because especially people
with vaginas in our culture aretaught that being a woman or
(16:03):
being a person with vagina isjust normal to be in pain and
have discomfort and to notreally be heard and believed
around that.
And so a lot of folks that comein have just been grinning and
bearing a significant amount ofpain and discomfort and just
thinking it's normal, or they'vetalked to their OBGYN about it
and they've been like, oh, haveyou tried lube and that's kind
of it.
(16:23):
And then the more it happens,the more traumatic it becomes,
because their body's tensing inwaiting for the pain to happen,
which creates more pain, to thepoint where some of their desire
libido is just like shut off.
And so a lot of people willcome in and haven't even been
asked the question, and thenwhen we get into it, they're
(16:45):
like oh my gosh, I'm having painand it's like a light bulb,
which is wild to me.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Yeah, that is such a thing Like we're taught like the
first time you have sex it'sprobably going to hurt.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, your period is supposed to be really painful
and just cripple you for a week.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
It's just like sets you up to be like.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
this is going to suck Everything about my future
sucks and sex should only hurtunless you're kinky like me and
Jim and you want it to.
So you know it should only hurtif you want it to and if it's
planned and if you'reexperiencing you know pain with
it there might be somethinggoing on, and even with your
first time it doesn't have tohurt your first time, but most
(17:33):
of us don't have the knowledgeto have it not hurt.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah, let me take it back.
So did you start having yourown navigation of your body
before you started working withthese individuals, or did you
take your own experience toreally want you to work more
with these individuals?
I mean not want to, but they,they're finding you for a reason
.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yeah, you know it wasn't something that I knew I
was experiencing before.
I don't think I wasexperiencing it.
Um, it just kind of ended upbeing something that I was able
to really work with people on.
I think too, uh, because ofsome of my other interests and
specializations just aroundadvocacy work and healthcare and
like holistic mind, body,spirit, you know,
(18:10):
biopsychosocial wellness, and somy pain and stuff didn't happen
until this last year or two.
So I was familiar with all thestuff because of the work that I
had done, but now I experienceit myself After 30,.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
my body started being like hey, have you felt this
before?
Figure it out.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
You're like what I know and it's all happening at
once and it's oh yeah, ourmedical system is really really
tough in navigating some ofthese chronic conditions.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, when folks do come to you and you know when
they do come to you and theyknow what the struggle is as a
sex therapist, because you'renot, you're not touching them.
I'm assuming you are not,you're not touching.
Let's be clear everyone.
There's no touching here inthat support.
And there are PT folks that dodo that.
How do you support theseindividuals as a therapist?
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yeah, I mean I would say first.
First, we're doing a lot oflike resourcing, like I want to
know what their current toolsare, if any.
I want to know, like how theirnervous system is doing.
You know, I really want toapproach it as much as I can
from a trauma informed space tojust kind of know, to get to
know their nervous system.
What are we working with?
Where are things at right now?
(19:30):
Then I would say it's a lot ofpsychoeducation, so education
around the psychology of pain,around painful sex and pelvic
pain.
And then it's a lot of meworking with other practitioners
too, because obviously I canonly really help with the
psychological piece.
I can provide education andsome referrals.
So usually then my first stepif I hear pain is I will refer
(19:54):
them to a sexual medicinespecialist.
So this is someone who'susually a urologist or a
gynecologist who has specializedsexual medicine training,
because most healthpractitioners do not have
specialized training in this.
And the group Tight Lipped,which is a great advocacy group
(20:16):
around pelvic pain that y'allshould check out.
I think they did a study thatsaid, on average, people with
pelvic pain see about 15 doctorsfirst before they get a
diagnosis and get the care thatthey need, which is so
inaccessible for most people,cost-wise and otherwise.
So my first step is to send themto a specialist so we can
(20:37):
really know what's physicallygoing on, so that I know how I
can best support them.
So sometimes it's helping withhelping them find their voice so
that they can advocate forthemselves and have tools and
resources to take care of theirnervous system before, during
and after doctor's appointments,especially if their doctor is
not collaborative with them.
(20:59):
So it's a lot of that.
It's a lot of finding creativenew ways to experience pleasure
and it's a lot of re-narratingaround, helping people feel
pleasure-able now and feelinginto the new story that pleasure
is something that is, I believe, like a human right but also a
(21:21):
medicine and a tool for healing,as opposed to only something
that we get to have when we'reall healed up.
So you know, different clientsare going to do different things
, but I would say these are kindof the main themes of where we
start.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
You know, it's so interesting that for a long time
I didn't even know there werepelvic therapists.
Right, most people don't.
These aren't the things thatwe're taught, right.
And like I was visiting myfriend Hunter in New Mexico and
I was like listen, tmi, and Istarted like laughing and like
peeing at myself recently.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
And I was like that's another fun over 30 thing too,
huh.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Excuse me, laughing and like peeing on myself
recently and I was like, excuseme, and so my friend is a PT,
and she was like, do you mind?
I said, sure, don't, let me getup on this table, okay.
Have a look, Looped up withsome gloves.
She felt around.
She said oh, you're doing toomany Kegels.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yes, which I think.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
So then it's then it's more tight than it needs to
be, but it's also weak Tootight, Too tight and weak which
I think is a conversation we canhave, is we're taught like well
, here's this thing.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, you want to have a tight vagina.
Do some kegels.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
But there can be too much.
Yes and I think that's theconversation that we can also
engage in is like you can overdoit with trying to do everything
, like when you're trying to fixthings.
Have you met individuals thatare like I've done this and this
and this and this and thisthing.
You're like what?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah, well, and most of the time, what they're doing
is sort of a one size fits allthing that has to do with, like
a cultural norm that they'vebeen told, such as doing kegels.
Some people absolutely do needto work their PT muscles, their
muscles in their pelvis, butit's not something that
(23:16):
everybody needs or should bedoing, and so that's something
that you can figure out with apelvic floor therapist, with a
sexual medicine specialist, totell you what your body actually
needs, and so, yeah, I seepeople sometimes doing a lot of
things, but they haven'tnecessarily gone to a doctor or
a healthcare provider who'staken the time to actually see
(23:37):
them as a whole unique,integrated individual, to help
them figure out what is best forthem, as opposed to you know,
just this.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Yeah, this one size fits all thing, yeah you kind of
brought it up, and this issomething that I talk about a
lot, a lot with trauma survivorsand that is medical trauma.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
The idea of going to the doctors is so scary for a
lot of people, especially thoseof us that have vulvas and
vaginas or identify as women,because we're often not believed
.
What do you?
Can you explain what medicaltrauma is, just so folks can
understand, and maybe some ofthe things that you know?
You have had to work withclients around when even just
(24:22):
going to the doctors, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
I mean again, I want to maybe describe it broadly
because I think there's so manythings that it can be.
So I think first there arefolks who are part, of, you know
, minority or marginalizedpopulations who just have
systemic trauma and fear aroundthe medical system, whether
that's folks of color who knowthat their ancestors were
(24:45):
non-consensually tested upon andthey don't trust the system, or
people who just know that maybethe system was not created for
them, people who just know thatmaybe the system was not created
for them.
Then we're looking at peoplewho have had negative
experiences themselves.
So I see a lot of folks againin marginalized populations
queer folks, other LGBT folks,trans folks who have gone to
(25:09):
doctors where they have beenmisgendered, where they have not
been treated well, where theyhave been misgendered, where
they have not been treated well,where they have been asked
questions that you know didn'tfeel right for them and you know
the healthcare practitionersjust weren't informed about how
to work with non-monogamous,queer, whatever population, and
so they stopped going becausethey weren't happy or
(25:31):
comfortable with the care theywere getting.
So that could be trauma.
And then I think we have folkswho have, you know, if they're
experiencing pain.
So for pelvic pain inparticular, the most common one
that I see, in addition to allthose intersections I just
listed before, is folks who havegone to a OBGYN and look,
(25:53):
obgyns are great, they do anamazing service.
Not everyone can learn all thespecializations in all the
things, but it's a real problemin our whole country that
there's not a better paineducation and trauma-informed
care.
And so what I see happening alot is folks will go to
non-trauma or pain-informedproviders.
(26:15):
Those providers will forciblyuse a speculum for someone who's
already experiencing pain to doa pelvic exam, or they will use
some kind of ultrasound and theperson is in excruciating pain.
They're not firstly asked,there's not really consent and
explanation of what they'redoing or expectation of what
(26:35):
it's going to hurt.
Or they might say, oh, you'llfeel slight pressure and the
person's in big pain.
And then we have this powerdynamic where, especially if
you're in trauma response.
But for anybody even myself I'min this field it is fucking hard
to speak to a doctor who's inthis power position and say no,
that's not right, or thatdoesn't feel right for me, or,
(26:58):
um, I have some questions andyou know they're like maybe
don't have the time or don'tknow how to answer, or just are
like I'm the doctor, I'm right,um and so that can be traumatic,
dismissive, so people can gointo appeasement at any of the
survival responses and so thenthey're having this ongoing
thing where they're not feelinglistened to, they're not feeling
(27:18):
heard, they're experiencingpain, they're not getting their
questions answered and it'straumatic.
So then they start dreadinggoing to the doctor.
The other layer I see for folkswith chronic pain is they're
just fucking tired of going tothe goddamn doctor, like, even
if they're getting great care,to be poked and prodded and
(27:41):
clinical and be a patient.
It's exhausting and to try toimagine that this body is
capable of pleasure when, like,the majority of what you're
experiencing is doctor'sappointments and clinical
medical stuff.
The majority of what you'reexperiencing is doctor's
appointments and clinicalmedical stuff that can feel
(28:04):
traumatic too.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
So long answer to say that there's so many layers,
and I see this a lot.
Yeah, it is a thing that reallydoes have a lot of layers and
shouldn't right Like why is thisso hard all the time?
Like it should be morecollaborative.
It doesn't feel like you'reeven led into your own medical
care?
often, when you do work withfolks, are there certain
(28:25):
diagnosis that they are given,that they can finally go, that
they can latch onto?
I know a lot of us are that arein pain, which I'm a human in
pain.
Quite often we spend so muchtime and energy, like you said,
trying to figure out what thefuck is going on and to finally
get a name for it.
How has that been working withindividuals?
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yeah, like what kind of diagnoses I'm seeing.
So I think first I'll say ifsomeone's going to someone
that's maybe not, you know,pelvic pain informed, they might
not get one, they might justget the.
Have you drank?
Have you had a glass of wine?
Try some wine, maybe some lube?
Are you relaxed?
You know, just try relaxing.
And I think we all know whenyou tell someone to relax, that
(29:08):
makes me want to relax quicklyand be fine.
Quickly and be fine.
That's actually.
I only need one session withevery client, I see, because I
just say have you tried notbeing upset?
And then that's all they need.
It's a wonder.
Yeah, it's wild, you know Ijust churn them in and out.
Um, so, you know they oftenwon't get a diagnosis, but when
(29:29):
they finally do, probably andagain, I know we're talking
about people with vulvas andvaginas, but there's pain that
can happen for all kinds offolks, all kinds of genitals,
and so for people with penises,common ones can be also, you
know, a tight pelvic floor,people carrying a lot of tension
in their pelvic floor which canaffect ejaculation erection.
(29:51):
It can also be indicative oflike a cardiovascular thing
going on or something calledPeyronie's, which is like a
fibroid, fibrosis issue of thepenis, of the tissue.
So there's some there.
Obviously, for folks who aretrans, non-binary, if they've
had any sort of affirmingsurgeries, there can be, you
(30:13):
know, medical trauma as well asscar tissue and things going on
there.
If they haven't had, you know,affirming surgeries, it could be
the tension they're carrying intheir pelvis because of not
feeling aligned with theirgenitals and their gender.
For people with vulvas andvaginas, endometriosis is a big
(30:34):
one that I see this is a veryoversimplifying definition but
basically when tissue in thepelvic area is growing outside
of where it should be.
But it can also happen all overthe body, so it's like tissue
growing where it's not supposedto causing pain.
Another big one is this amouthful hormone mediated
(31:00):
vestibulodynia.
This basically basically meansyeah, it's not as not sexy as it
sounds.
It basically means hormones arecausing pain at the vestibule.
The vestibule is the entranceof the vagina.
This is often caused by somekind of hormonal thing going on,
(31:22):
which I see a lot for folks whohave been on long-term hormonal
birth control.
So that affects that's probablythe biggest one that I see for
people that I work with.
There are other things that cango on with the tissue with the
nerves.
Some people have like neuralgiagoing on, like a compression or
(31:44):
issue in the sensitivity of thenerves.
Some people have stuff going onwith their microbiome that's
affecting consistent infections.
So it can really be a varietyof things.
So get yourself evaluated tofigure out what's going on for
you.
And the thing with pain is,even if it starts as like a
physical diagnosis, it's oftenmaintained by psychological and
(32:09):
sociocultural stuff.
So you know, even once thephysical is treated, cultural
stuff.
So you know, even once thephysical is treated, ideally the
treatment team consists of aphysical therapist, a sex
medicine specialist and atherapist, so we can get the
whole person and the whole humanhealing, which is not
accessible for everybody and alot of times insurances won't
(32:30):
cover what's needed or or thosespecialists won't take insurance
won't cover what's needed orthose specialists won't take
insurance, isn't that?
Speaker 2 (32:38):
great.
Yeah, such a fun fuck.
It's so fun, but there are-.
You fight to get insurance andit doesn't work.
You're like cute, I love it.
Thank you so much for taking mymoney for nothing.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
I know and all the people that I, for me, end up
seeing are oftentimes people outof pocket, because they're the
ones who have the time to spendtime with you and hear about
what's going on, which is thisis a systemic issue.
Luckily, there are groups likeTightlipped and others that are
fighting for advocacy and tryingto change some of these things,
but dang, it is frustrating.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, I want to ask one question that I kind of want
to ask.
Let's talk through some myths.
Is all pain bad?
Speaker 1 (33:21):
No Period.
That's it Complete sentence.
Thank you, yeah that's it, we'reall done.
I'd love to hear your answer onthis too.
I would say, in short, no.
What I mean by no is that Ithink not I think, but I know
that pain can be a reallyimportant indicator and
(33:42):
barometer, like a warning lightto tell us when something isn't
right.
And so I think I read it a longtime ago, but I think my
therapist a long time ago toldme to read the Gift of Fear or
something like that.
I had mixed feelings about it,but I think it was all to say
that sometimes our bodies have alot to tell us and we need to
(34:05):
listen to them.
Sure, sometimes the messagesare coming from maybe an old
trauma place, but other timesit's giving us an indication.
So pain could be telling youthat something's going too fast,
that something's not right,that you need support.
It could be something that youdo intentionally because you
like the way it feels.
It could be.
I don't think that feelings andsensations are good or bad.
(34:28):
I think that they aresensations that can give us
information and to be curiousabout.
So certainly, if you'reexperiencing pain that is
unwanted, I would get it checkedout.
And that doesn't mean that paindoesn't have a message or a
purpose or something to tell us.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
What do you think?
How did you get to?
I agree with you but before Iforget this question how did you
get to not thinking things aregood or bad?
I mean, I don't think that'slike a thing.
We all think where it has to beone or the other.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
I think, in all transparency, I'm still working
on with myself and the trainingsI've done to support my clients
.
It's just been an ongoing thingto get curious and to give us,
to give us information, and so Idon't know if I am there, even
within myself.
I think it's something I'mstill practicing.
(35:30):
But I think trying to detachyourself from the story can be
really helpful.
But in order to shift our story, we have to change our state.
And so I think it was Deb Dana,like a trauma specialist, who
said story follows state, whichmeans like whatever state we're
(35:54):
in is going to affect themeaning and the story of
something that we'reexperiencing.
And so, for me, I think, whenI'm in a certain state that's
able like a rest and digest, asocially engaged state, I'm able
to be like oh, I'm having asensation that's interesting,
I'm going to be curious about it.
Versus, if I'm in like fight orflight, or stressed, and I have
(36:15):
a feeling I'm probably going tobe like it's bad, it's all bad,
it's all bad, we're all goingto die, you know so, and it
could be the same sensation.
So I would say for me, me oncea week.
I mean, yeah, that's what I'msaying.
I'm working on it myself, butif I can, as I've been trying to
shift my internal states, it'saffected the way I can look at
(36:36):
those things when I'm not in asurvival, fight or flight space.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Yeah, I love that.
I am a curious human.
That's why I asked.
But I agree with you.
I don't think that all pain isbad.
I think that we are fed thatpain is all bad in somewhat of a
controlling way.
I don't, I can't, I don't havethe energy to flush that out,
but I feel like I'm a liar.
Here we go, I feel like as thoseof us that you know were, you
(37:07):
know identify as women havevaginas, have vulvas, like we
are set up to, like think thatbeing us is so hard and painful,
like there's no joy in all ofthese things Right, which I
think is kind of really shittythat we're set up to just be
like.
You're getting your period, areyou okay?
Like that's like the start ofit.
(37:27):
It just gets downhill from ohno, you're getting little
breasts.
People's tones change, the waythat we are held, the way that
we are held, the way that we'retalked to.
It's like a fucked up, weirdstart.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah well, yeah, and then and then the way that
people emphasize the no pain, nogain.
So there is this also likething in our culture that's like
, oh, you can only find, youknow, strength and healing and
growth if you go through painright, or like just just grin
and bear it, you know, justwhite knuckle it, like pain
(37:59):
builds character.
So I think our culture can alsogo to the other extreme, where
then we're dealing with immenseamounts of pain and thinking
it's normal.
So I don't know, I've seen itswing both ways, where it's like
sure, yeah, it's either like areally good thing that builds
character or like something thatis bad.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
And also those conversations when I really pull
back are very gendered.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, the no pain, no gain is more for men, cis men,
right?
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
And then I'm like, because we were taught, oh, it's
gonna be so sad you, you betterget up like the energy right.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
A whole, nother, whole, nother convo yeah, but go
into, but there is a genderedpiece here, absolutely yeah,
yeah, even even as the myth themyths.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Let's get into some this.
I pulled some up on differentwebsites um myth.
You can tell me your thought onthem.
You could tell me true, you cansay false, however you want to
respond.
Okay, we're open.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Oh, I just got anxious.
What is it?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
It's just different questions, like people have said
.
No, I know.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Just like I'm noticing that I got into, like
my test body, which is like Isaw it you did I need extended
time?
Speaker 2 (39:15):
I have ADHD.
What is going to happen?
See, this is real time.
Y'all this is real life MythMen don't have pelvic floor
muscles.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
It's a myth that they don't.
So they do have pelvic floormuscles.
Yes, yes, people with allgenitals have a lot.
Again, this is a little bit outof my scope so I can't do it
justice, but there are a lot ofmuscle groups that are part of
our pelvic bowl, our pelvicfloor, that all genders have and
(39:44):
that deserve care just like anyother muscles.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
And maybe a little bit more, because I just told
y'all I'm a happy person.
I was laughing and tinkling atthe same time, so I don't know
yeah, which is?
It says something's going onyeah, which is my next myth
pelvic floor issues only affectolder individuals.
False, that's not true, nottrue.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Well, I mean, we are old, untrue.
We are older individuals.
I not older, I feel like anolder individual.
No, it can affect people of allages and there's lots of
traumas that can happen to thatpart of the body at any age
(40:28):
pelvic floor is normal, is anormal part of aging um, like
our pelvic floor is a normalpart of aging.
Pelvic pain, oh pelvic pain.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Maybe I say again maybe I didn't fully read it
it's also a fall.
Okay, pelvic pain is a normalpart of aging.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Um, yes, no, and so I would say um, people definitely
can experience more pain as thetissues thin, as the tissues
change as we age, they can needmore care.
That does not mean that youhave to tolerate it without
support and intervention.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Sure.
And last one pelvic floorsupport only matters after
giving birth tissue connected toso many things in your body.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
That deserves care and knowledgeable intervention
at all stages in life.
And I wish it was required tohave pelvic floor, which again
is physical therapy for thepelvic region, to have pelvic
floor therapy before and afterbirth.
And a lot of people don't knowthat, a lot of people don't get
it, and then they have pelvicfloor dysfunction and are like
what's going on?
Why am I laughing and peeing?
(41:56):
Why am I, you know, feeling, um, uh, a shift in my experience
with pleasure during penetration, um, all these kinds of things.
So scar tissue if you have aC-section, um, so please do
yourself a favor and do it now,even if there's not an issue.
See how things are going, howyou can be preventative,
proactive, and also, if you'replanning to have some kind of a
(42:20):
birth process, consider itbefore and after that is such a
thing that they don't reallyfocus on.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
I feel like often those that have children like
it's focused on the children andnot on the care of the person
that the little human grewinside.
So, having that information, Ireally do wish that more folks
knew about it.
I do think that because of ourgood girlfriend's social media,
which is where we're going here,I want to break up.
There's a lot more.
You know same.
(42:54):
She and I have had a rough time.
I think I'm being suppressedagain on the internet, but
that's fine.
That means I'm doing my jobWith social media, with our good
girlfriend TikTok and Instagramand Twitter.
Because we're not calling itthat letter.
There's a lot of peopleInstagram and Twitter because
(43:15):
we're not calling it that letter.
There's a lot of people thathave a lot of opinions and
thoughts.
Do you think social media ishelpful?
Speaker 1 (43:18):
or harmful.
I think it can be both.
I guess it's sort of the way Iview anything is that depends on
how you use it.
I do think it has given peopleaccess to a lot of things and
information that they maybewouldn't otherwise.
To help them find community, tohelp them feel normal, to help
them learn about things they maynot otherwise.
(43:39):
And then, on the flip side, Ithink it's really hard for the
consumer and the young peoplewho aren't taught comprehensive
sex education or mental healtheducation to decipher, maybe how
it's impacting them, what'smaybe feeling harmful, what's
causing more body image issues,more isolation.
I think a lot of us use it in adissociative way.
(44:02):
That's not super intentional,and I think there's a lot of
people out there who are callingthemselves experts that maybe
don't have the knowledge, theexperience, to be calling
themselves that and are justpreaching their opinions, which,
um, you know you can share youropinion, but for people who
don't have a discerning lens ora broader knowledge, I think it
(44:24):
can be dangerous and harmful.
Um, I definitely think it'sbeen harmful for people in like
comparison culture and beingpresent with like what life
actually is and looking at sortof like a false reality.
So I think I've seen it have alot of support and I've also
seen it be detrimental.
So it depends.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Why do you want to break up with her?
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Because I'm feeling that push pull as well.
Why do you want to break upwith her?
Because I'm feeling that pushpull as well.
I'm feeling I've been trying tolike stop doing things that I
don't feel excited about, and Idefinitely don't feel excited
about it.
Certainly, you can try to bringin people to help, but it's it
gets costly, um, and I think,yeah, it just doesn't feel quite
(45:10):
real.
It feels, um, like I'm justhaving to, I don't know.
It almost feels like an abusiverelationship a little bit,
where there's like this entity,this Mark Zuckerberg entity,
that like I need them to survive.
I don't feel like I can leavethem because I'm supposed to be
doing this and they can justlike take, they can just like
pull the rug out from under meat any time.
(45:32):
Um, if we were talking aboutlike a relationship like that,
that does not sound like ahealthy, fulfilling relationship
to me.
So when I think about itrelationally, it is not.
It doesn't feel very good, butagain it feels stuck Like well,
what else, you know?
Are there other ways?
But for me, I'm really tryingto spend some more time focusing
(45:53):
on my own health and all thestuff we talked about in this
episode.
I'm starting to wonder if it'simportant to me anymore.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Yeah, yeah, it is a weird thing, like everyone's
like you should do TikTok, youshould do this.
Let me tell everyone, and Ilike to remind folks I fucking
hate unsolicited advice.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Leave me alone, I'm tired she does, she does leave
me alone don't tell her to callit x I hate it, I do that same
thing, that's my little picky,the fuck you attitude.
It's like I will not thank youfor your suggestion.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Yeah, also, our birthdays are very close.
We're a lot of the same.
There are a lot of individualsand I'm glad you hit that little
nail on the head.
Everyone's a fucking expert onthe internet.
I don't even like being calledan expert.
They've done it so much.
I have the ick and I've beenstudying psychology since I was
(46:49):
16.
Ew, I hate the word.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
Yeah, it's a little bit like beware the Buddha on
the road or whatever.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Have you found, though, good information around,
like pelvic floor stuff thatyou do refer clients to, or
practices, or anything like that?
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Uh, lipped, I think you found them on the internet.
I think I found them throughcolleagues and maybe a client.
So again, their advocacyeducation group.
They also do support groups,get togethers, meetups, podcasts
, so I really like referring tothem.
Around some of the pelvic painstuff.
(47:32):
There's definitely some otherphysical therapists I can't
think of them right now but Ican give a list to folks if they
want.
But there certainly are somereally wonderful ones out there.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Yeah, how would you tell folks as someone that does
sometimes get into the scrollthings like how are there any
tips to decipher if the personactually knows what the fuck
they're talking about?
Speaker 1 (47:58):
Good question, Gosh.
I don't know if I know how toanswer that.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
That's okay, that's an answer.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
I think my answer is to get a few different inputs of
information and, you know, becurious about where this person
just got their training and,again, I know people who have
gotten great training and Iwould not send people to them.
So also that that's hard.
I think it's having some kindof check and balance and I do,
(48:31):
like you said, like people whoaren't just like expert expert
but seem to be continuing tolearn, continuing to offer
updated versions of things butget a couple different inputs so
that it's not just like one oneinput.
Yeah, but that's a hard one, Idon't know.
(48:51):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (48:54):
I also.
I'm listen.
I love to use my goodgirlfriend, google, because
she's free, and I'm like who isthis?
Let me go and look them up.
Even people that work with me.
I'm always like look me up, youshould know who you're working
with.
You should know whose adviceyou're taking, because there is
a lot of people that have adviceand not expertise and not
(49:14):
knowledge.
Yeah, so I would say, sure, ifyou like what they're saying and
it connects with you, I thinkthat's also a start, feeling
that aha moment of like, oh shit, I've never heard it in a way
that maybe it's digestible forme to understand.
But then I would also go and dowhatever research I can.
You already have a computer inyour hand.
(49:35):
Just do that extra step foryourself.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
Yeah, I mean this is sort of a harder answer and a
longer process.
But I do work a lot with peoplewith helping them what we call
like find their yes and their no, to help them sort of trust
their body messages right, likewhat is my body telling me, and
to trust that feeling that weget around people that maybe
give us the yes or give us theno and to slow down enough to
(49:59):
really feel into those andfigure out those sensations.
So that's sort of a longeranswer is to maybe get some
therapy support to help youbuild a better trusting
relationship with your body'sresponses so that if and when
you have you're checking out anew person, to take the time to
(50:20):
sit back and be like how do Iactually feel listening or
looking at this person's stuff?
Is it giving me yes, vibes?
Is it giving me no?
Is it giving me?
I'm not sure I need moreinformation, vibes.
Is it giving me no?
Is it giving me?
I'm not sure I need moreinformation.
So I'd say that's another one.
But that's a, that's a longer,lifelong process of kind of
getting to know thecommunications of our body which
(50:41):
are sometimes in conflict withour brain.
So it's a, that's a that's aprocess, but one that I would
invite people to be curious andinquire about people to be
curious and inquire about.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
Yeah, how is your mental health as you navigate
all these things?
We always talk about otherindividuals as providers.
I'm always like how's yourbrain, how's your heart?
What's happening over there?
Because we're not asked enough.
People are always puttingthings on us and forgetting that
we're also humans.
It's so wild.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
I saw a funny little clip on TikTok or something the
other day.
That was like two mental healthproviders like trying to catch
up and ask each other abouttheir lives, and it was just
this ping pong of like, no, no,no, how are you doing?
Like, how are things feelingfor you?
Yeah, how are you doing?
Because we're like, yeah, itcan be hard to flip the script,
(51:35):
man, I'm a work in progress, Iam doing a lot of my own therapy
, I'm doing a lot of my own carestuff and it is hard to be a
human.
You know, I I certainly don'tuse my therapy sessions with my
clients as my personal therapy,but I do get real with clients,
like being no, don't do that,but I am, you know, more
transparent than the oldFreudian.
You know blank slate approachof like, yeah, being a human is
(51:56):
hard, like oh, yeah, that'ssomething I've struggled with
and here's some of the thingsthat I've been doing to work
through that like when it ishelpful for the client.
I will self disclose, not intoo much detail, but I'll be a
real, a real human with them.
So, like I'm doing okay, like Ihave a lot of the tools and
resources, it is hard to makethe time to do all the things.
(52:19):
Some of the it feels like afull-time job.
It is a full-time job sosometimes I would love the
opportunity to just have myhealth and wellness be my
full-time job, get paid to do it, which it like half is, but,
you know, not quite.
So work in progress, trying tofind better balance and time
(52:41):
management, which is hard for aADHD person like me that wants
to do all the things.
As you know, it can be hard to,you know, find the time to do
all the stuff I want to do andmake sure that I'm prioritizing
taking care of myself.
So I'm really working on it formyself and to model that for my
(53:01):
clients.
But it is a work in progressand it is hard when we're up
against so many systemicsocietal things that are not set
up to prioritize a life thatprioritizes that kind of
wellbeing.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
Yeah, this was fun.
I people, people are alwayslike you have such hard comments
.
I'm like they're so fun.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
That's the kinky in us.
We're like let's talk about theshadow.
Give me trauma.
Speaker 2 (53:30):
It's so good?
I also think because we're verycomfortable in the
uncomfortable, even if it makesus squirmy, because we're so
inquisitive humans.
This is why we get along.
Speaker 1 (53:42):
It's like this is weird, but have you thought
about this?
This is weird, but can you lookat my vagina?
Speaker 2 (53:49):
Why not?
We got gloves.
Can I use your lube?
Thanks, that is interestingsomething.
Before we wrap up here, um, I'dlove for you to speak to a
little bit about like safety.
Um, you know, for a lot offolks you know going to the
doctors it's.
It's also like a safety feeling.
(54:09):
You know navigating pelvic pain.
It it might be because ofsexual harm or whatever, or just
because whatever, but there's alot of safety that comes to my
brain.
As we've had this conversationexternally and internally, which
is the way that I kind of lookat it, does that come up in
sessions for you?
Have you had to navigatethrough any of that for yourself
(54:32):
as well?
Speaker 1 (54:34):
Absolutely.
I would say a big part of thework is helping people find.
People who have experienced alot don't feel safe, feeling
safe.
So what I mean by that is, ifyou've experienced a lot of
(55:02):
stuff, your body has learnedthat it should be on guard,
waiting for the next thing.
That isn't safe isn't safe.
And so a lot of the work that Ido is, you know, trying to help
people or giving peopleresources to feel safe again in
being safe, which is why I'vebeen trying to do a lot more you
know, trauma, trauma trainingsto really help with that for
(55:24):
myself and with clients.
But yeah, safety is huge andthat's kind of the one of the
first things that I have to dowith clients is how do we build
a sense of safety with eachother in this relationship by
having consistent care so we cando the work.
Speaker 2 (55:42):
Yeah, I just wanted to touch on that Cause I know a
lot of folks that have had, youknow, different types of trauma.
They're like I don't trustanyone, so no, thank you.
Speaker 1 (55:50):
Yeah, yeah, which, which, for them, has probably
kept them safe when it needed to, but it might not be working
anymore.
What the body needs?
Speaker 2 (55:58):
Sure, and I think there's.
You know, when you say likeit's not working anymore, things
change.
Like you evolve the things thatmaybe you needed before you,
you don't need as much or you'reable to navigate easier.
Right, Exactly.
Okay, We've gotten to the lastquestion, which is my favorite
question because nosy.
Speaker 1 (56:19):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
What is the wildest thing?
That someone has texted or DMGin the last two weeks?
Speaker 1 (56:27):
Oh, gosh, it's hard to think of the last two weeks,
but I'll give you a good onethat comes to my mind from my,
from the archives and okay.
So luckily it's been bettersince I'm like licensed and have
learned you know betterboundaries, but you know, when I
first and again, nothing'sreally crazy to me anymore
(56:49):
because I'm like I see peoplepeopling all the time, so I'm
not like shocked and you knowwhatever.
But back in the day I used toget what I would call creepy
callers, which was people whoweren't really looking for
therapy, who wanted to push theboundaries of how they talked
about sex, which can be hardbecause sometimes people call a
therapist and they're going totalk about some explicit stuff
(57:10):
and it's like part of whythey're coming to see you.
But I had this one person whogot creepy afterwards and got a
little stalkery, which was scary.
But the funny part was it thatbasically they first called me
and they said they werestruggling because they realized
that they liked the smell ofpublic bathrooms after people
(57:31):
would poop in them and I waslike, okay, that's a thing Like
tell me what.
Like you know, are you doing itethically?
Are you doing it consensually,cause that doesn't have to be a
problem, like you know find somepeople to let's let's figure
that out for you Um, and turnedinto them actually wanting to
come to session with me so Icould fart in the room with them
(57:54):
so that they could see if theyliked the way that I smelled and
part of me was like, well, Ifart every day.
Like how much?
Speaker 2 (58:04):
You're like well, well, let me, yeah, lights, I
like.
Speaker 1 (58:08):
Right, can't do that as a therapist.
But you know, I was like, Ithink I think, because of how
non shaming I am and how sexpositive I am, it wasn't the
reaction they wanted from me.
I think they wanted me to belike upset and bothered and
shocked, but instead I was likewell, look, I don't do that.
But you know, let me refer youto some of my colleagues who
(58:29):
will happily fart in your mouth,fart in your face, fart in a
jar, like what kind of farts areyou looking for, you know?
So I'm giving a whole list offarters.
Um, so I think they didn't wantthat.
You know, they wanted me to bepart of this shaming cycle of
like no, so mad.
So shout out to the fart loversout there.
That was a.
(58:49):
That's a good one.
That comes to my mind.
Uh, thank you for that gift.
Yeah, um, and just, ps, don'tsend me unsolicited dick pics.
Luckily I don't get much ofthose anymore, but now and then
I don't either.
Yeah, I got one guy who sent meone, with him next to a pringle
can, and just was like oh Ithink that photo too, yeah.
Speaker 2 (59:12):
Um, because everyone's not pulled out,
pringle cancel yeah oh man, Iget some.
We get some of those, but haveyou ever gotten a vulva, because
I've gotten a vulva before no,I haven't yeah, I sure did.
I said who coaches this?
Speaker 1 (59:25):
yeah, yeah, I've only gotten it once though oh, man,
man, it makes me want to bringup my they're all in the hidden
files.
Speaker 2 (59:39):
You're gonna be like.
I was just kidding, I actuallygot 50 over here.
Speaker 1 (59:42):
I know I'm like there's so many, oh shoot, okay,
well, next time, but now nowI'm just now they're just funny
at some point, still, doesn'tthem?
Speaker 2 (59:51):
no, thank you Now they're just funny at some point
.
Still don't send them.
No, thank you, I was going tosay something.
We're going to stop because Iwas going to say something wild
and that's not for your ears,it's just for hers.
Before you go, where can he,they, them, she, they, zee, them
, zee, zay, anybody?
Where can they find you?
(01:00:11):
Where can they find out whatyou're doing?
Keep up with you, listen tothings, give us your info.
Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
Thank you.
Y'all can find me at my website.
I'll give it to you to put inthe show notes
nicolettavheideggercom.
Please do join my newsletter.
I don't send a lot of stuff andspam, mostly just events I'm
doing, but I would say that'd bethe best way in case me and
social media do have a pause atsome point.
(01:00:37):
But for now I'm also on socialmedia at Sluts and Scholars,
which is the name of my podcast.
You can also find that atslutsandscholarscom or anywhere
you get your podcasts, or atTherapy with Nicoletta.
You can find all my links in mybios there.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
Yes, this was so fun.
Take what feels good for you.
Go do some research.
If we talked about somethingthat you are inquisitive about,
go use your good girlfriendGoogle.
She's free, but we're not,neither is our time.
So we will talk to you later,and until next time, thank you.
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