Earth Day: Lessons in Sustainability with Shannon Stowell, CEO ATTA and Greg Takehara, CEO, Tourism Cares

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This Earth Day, we’re proud to share present our first ATTA & Travel Trends Adventure Series discussion focused on important lessons in sustainability.  In this powerful episode, Travel Trends host Dan is joined by co-host Shannon Stowell, CEO of ATTA and together they interview the CEO of Tourism Cares  Greg Takehara.

Greg & Shannon unpack the current state of sustainable travel and share many actionable insights on how the industry, along with travelers, can move past surface-level greenwashing to drive meaningful, long-term impact.

Key Highlights from this discussion include:

• Environmental Responsibility: Moving beyond buzzwords, learn how real practices can protect delicate ecosystems.
• Adventure Travel's Role: Did you know that adventure travel retains 65–70% of spending in local communities compared to only 10–15% for large-scale tourism? These numbers showcase the moral and economic power of mindful travel decisions.
• Cultural Preservation: Why Travel is an important bridge to connect and honor diverse customs and traditions.
• Human Connection: How this style of travel realizes the ultimate goal—forging connections that last a lifetime.

Key Upcoming Events to Learn More

Deepen your commitment to responsible travel with these powerful events curated by Tourism Cares and ATTA:

• Tourism Cares’ Meaningful Travel Roadshow
  • Miami, FL - May
  • Pittsburgh, PA - October
  • Galveston, TX - November
• ATTA Featured Events
  • AdventureNEXT in Bonito, Brazil - April
  • AdventureELEVATE in Denver, CO - May
  • Adventure Travel World Summit in Puerto Natales, Chile - November

As Shannon reminds us on this Earth day: “Once you destroy a culture or environment, some things are gone forever.” A profound and important reminder for us all. 

Join us for this thought-provoking conversation and a call to us all—to travel responsibly, drive local impact, and honor the environments and communities we visit.

Season 5 Launched Jan 15th. New Episodes Every Weds! Check out our first 4 Seasons.

https://www.traveltrendspodcast.com/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
We like to project ourselves in a way that says, oh
you know, we look intosustainable options, but to what
degree do we look intosustainable options?
Are we willing to spend $100more, or are we willing to spend
$500 more?
And I think that's where reallythe rubber hits the road,

(00:27):
really the rubber hits the road.
But what I will say is there'sno question that our industry
tends to be reactive as versusproactive.
One thing that will alwayshappen is that if consumer
demand is there, the market willmeet them, and so, as we know,
if the consumers start askingfor sustainable options, then
you will have the industry meetthat need.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
Hello everyone and happy Earth Day.
This is your host, danChristian of Travel Trends, but
today is a special edition wherewe have partnered with our
friends Shannon and Gabby at theAdventure Travel and Trade
Association to continue ouradventure series.
As many of you may recall, weactually kicked off season four
of Travel Trends with ShannonStoll as part of our adventure

(01:21):
series and actually thatconversation and that series has
become one of our adventureseries and actually that
conversation and that series hasbecome one of our most popular
ever and over the last sixmonths, shannon and I have
become great friends.
We had the opportunity toconnect in person in Panama at
the Adventure Travel WorldSummit, which was absolutely
extraordinary, and many of youmay have listened to that
two-part series that we createdof all the amazing voices that

(01:43):
come together for thatincredible event Going into
2025,.
Shannon and I decided that weshould host a podcast together
to reach both the adventuretravel community and travel
trends as well, with the mostimportant topics in the world of
adventure travel, and therecould be no more important topic
affecting our world today thanclimate change and the reality

(02:03):
that all of us, as travelers,need to be focused on traveling
more sustainably and lesseningour impact.
So we thought it was theperfect opportunity to kick off
our Adventure Travel TradeAssociation and Travel Trends
podcast for 2025, our quarterlyseries by bringing you a
conversation on Earth Day April22nd 2025, with the CEO of

(02:23):
Tourism Cares, greg Takahara.
Now, greg's background isreally impressive.
He spent the entire career inthe travel industry, but he was
very much invested in theinsurance space for many years
and, for those of you that arefamiliar with how insurance
works, obviously it's all aboutplaying the odds and these
actuaries have to run scenariosto figure what the risk of an
event occurring is, based on itslikelihood.

(02:46):
So that tells me that Greg hasdone his analysis on the world
and his commitment tosustainability is very real and
genuine, as you'll hear.
But this certainly gives us atleast the moment to raise
awareness and then be that muchmore conscientious in the year
ahead of what we can all do tomake travel more sustainable.

(03:13):
Now you'll also hear, fromShannon's background as well,
some really interesting storieson their journey towards
becoming more sustainable andsome of the challenging debates
that occur around this space.
So I'm really keen for you tojoin us for this important
discussion.
Now, don't forget we also dopost clips and highlights on our
social channels, both at TravelTrends Podcast and Adventure

(03:34):
Travel and Trade Association aswell.
You can find out more aboutATTA at adventuretravelbiz and,
of course, you can check outmore details about Travel Trends
Podcast attraveltrendspPodcastcom.
One last thing to note is thatwe're actually going to be
together in May in Denver forATTA Elevate.
I hope many of you are able tojoin us there.
I'll be recording podcasts live, which will lend itself to

(03:57):
episode two of our ATTA TravelTrends 2025 adventure series.
So make sure you reach out ifyou're going to be there.
I'd love to be able to recordwith you, but today let's kick
things off by bringing Shannonand Greg into this conversation.
Welcome, shannon and Greg.
So great to have you on thisvery first edition.
Happy Earth Day to you both.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
Thanks, Dan.
It's been such a pleasuredreaming this into action and it
was really fun to have you inPanama.
You know, I just really respectyour professionalism.
Your podcast is fantastic.
The other reason I'm reallyexcited about this is that
there's so many subjects that wecan hit within adventure travel
.
You know some of the trendswhere are the hot destinations?

(04:37):
What are the motivations fortravelers?
Where's the industry going?
But also one of the key thingsis because adventure travel
really lies at the heart ofconservation, community and
commerce.
Sustainability is just a reallyimportant subject, and so
together we decided that wewould start with some
sustainability conversation andhave that sort of be the

(04:58):
platform, but certainly I lookforward to going far beyond this
subject to explore the netherreaches of adventure travel with
you.
So also really excited to bringin a guest that is really
perfect for this firstconversation and also a close
personal friend.
We've traveled together in somepretty amazing locations

(05:28):
locations Our last one wastraveling together with a
purpose, and that was in Jordanto assure people that Jordan was
still an amazing place to bevisiting, even with the
unfortunate level of conflictgoing on next door, you know.
So Greg and I and a group ofabout 15 other people traveled
together and it was one of themost meaningful experiences that
I've had in my career travelingwith other professionals.
So Greg Takahara, CEO ofTourism Cares, is our first

(05:52):
guest, and Greg just want to sayhow excited I am that you're
guest number one.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
Well, thanks Shannon and thanks Dan.
I'm completely honored to bethe first guest.
It's kind of like the inauguralshow, and so to be part of this
is really exciting for me.
But, as you referenced, ourdeep personal relationship and
the experiences that we've hadtraveling the world, and your

(06:18):
perspectives and your generosityas a board member of Tourism
Cares really kind of makes thisa perfect opportunity for us to
tag team and talk aboutsustainability, which is really
at the core of both of ourorganization's missions.
With regards to Tourism Cares,for those who aren't familiar

(06:38):
with Tourism Cares, we've beenaround for 21 years.
We unite the travel and tourismindustry.
We were fortunate to have beenborn from the industry,
fortunate to have three foundingorganizations in the National
Tour Association, the UnitedStates Tour Operators

(06:59):
Association and the AmericanSociety of Travel Advisors be
our founding members, all with apurpose of bringing uniting the
industry together and creatingpositive impact for the people
and places of travel.
And when we started, we did alot of work, as many people know
, doing as we call them cleanupevents.

(07:22):
So a lot of it was based involunteerism and bringing the
industry together to come toplaces that were under-resourced
, that really oftentimes weresuffering after natural
disasters and really rolling upour sleeves and helping to clean
up that place and doing thework that in many instances you

(07:44):
know for instance, our inauguralevent in 2003 in Ellis Island
300 travel and tourismprofessionals came together and
did the work in one day.
That would have taken theNational Park Service months,
perhaps even a year, to get done, and I still remember tears
being shed by a number of therepresentatives who are just so

(08:08):
happy to see us come and reallyhelp them out.
But we've evolved over those 21years and we recognize that
painting fences and picking updebris was rather temporary and
we needed to put a much morelasting stamp rather temporary
and we needed to put a much morelasting stamp.
And so what we're working on isreally to help the industry on

(08:29):
its sustainability journey andreally kind of meet them where
they're at, no matter whetherthey're just starting or whether
they're further along on theirjourney, but also to just create
a much greater global impact,really working with local
communities and reallyamplifying how tourism can be a
true force for good.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
That's so well put, greg, and I've watched it evolve
under your leadership thetourism cares, the strategy and
the direction, and it's reallyit was exciting for me.
That's why I was excited tojoin the board when you were so
kind to offer that to me.
That's why I was excited tojoin the board when you were so
kind to offer that to me.
And so one of the things Ithink because sustainable you
know there's so much tossingabout of terms my personal view

(09:14):
is we should focus less onwhether sustainable as a word is
still relevant or not and focuson just getting the actual work
done.
So I'm going to say, you know,we acknowledge there's a lot of
new descriptions regenerative,this, that and the other but
let's from a blanket termperspective, how do you look at,

(09:34):
how do you define sustainabletourism and why do you think
it's critical for the future ofthe travel industry?

Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah, I think you touched already on a number of
very salient points about theterm sustainability and, to your
point, there are many in ourspace who really don't even want
to use that term, maybe becauseit's just difficult to digest.
But I think that you know,whatever the term is, as you
mentioned, it's the work that'sbeing done that is really

(10:02):
important.
It's the work that's being donethat is really important.
We like to use the moniker ofmeaningful travel, not as a
replacement, but just somethingthat I think people can really
truly identify with.
Everybody, when they'retraveling, looks for that sense
of meaningfulness and has kindof their own definition around
it and, much like sustainability, that can take into account

(10:28):
social elements, environmentalelements, but it really comes
down to making a real connectionwith the people and places that
we go.
And so that element ofmeaningfulness takes into
account all three of thoseelements of social, economic and
environmental, but it alsoreally goes into the cultural

(10:49):
community aspects that you and Iare very much in tune with and
very much support in terms ofcommunity tourism, indigenous
tourism.
All of those separate monikers,I think, just kind of roll into
meaningful travel as reallysomething that everybody can
identify with.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
So tell us about any recent projects or initiatives
at Tourism Cares that you'reparticularly proud of in
advancing sustainability.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Well, we're.
You know we are really when wetalk about that evolution.
You know, there's just a lot oflessons that you learn over
time.
And we developed our meaningfultravel map.
You mentioned our trip toJordan.
Our global meaningful travelsummit was in Jordan in 2018.

(11:37):
Part of the outcome of thatsummit was to develop a
meaningful travel map of 12different social enterprises
along the Jordan Trail.
Now, if you think back to 2018,I really give a lot of credit to
our good friend Malia Asfor,the managing director of the

(12:01):
North American office of theJordan Tourism Board, for having
the kind of vision that is sorelevant today.
She was already starting to seetourism in Petra.
She recognized that a lot ofpeople kind of look at Petra as
a bucket list place and thatonce you get that off your

(12:21):
bucket list, you're probably notgoing to come back to Jordan,
and what she wanted to do washelp to ensure that people get
off the beaten path, that thepower of tourism and the
economic benefit of tourismreaches out to the local
communities within Jordan andthat people really start to move
out beyond Jordan and have thattouch point where they make

(12:44):
that connection with the peopleand the culture that makes them
want to come back.
So we built out that meaningfultravel map with 12 different
social enterprises along theJordan Trail and that really
became the basis of themeaningful travel map that we've
now built to over 400 impactpartners around the globe, and

(13:08):
so that's something that we'renot only proud of but really
we've kind of turned into,rather than being an outcome of
one of our summits, but to be afocal point of how we work with
destinations, and we'refortunate to be working with
over 40 destinations now,building out maps with them,
doing exactly what we've donewith Jordan to try to create

(13:31):
that focus on local communityenterprises that haven't had
that touch point with masstourism, and it was really fun
to work in tandem with you lastyear in Panama where you did
your Meaningful Travel Summit,and then we followed up with the
Adventure Travel World Summitand incorporated many of those
businesses that you were workingwith into our pre-adventures,

(13:54):
our day of adventures, and itwas a really beautiful
dovetailing of our twoorganizations and the efforts
that we do.

Speaker 3 (14:03):
So one thing you know , one thing that gets criticized
a lot in the world ofsustainability is lack of
measurement.
It feels squishy, which I thinkleads to consumer confusion too
, where they're not quite sureyou know they say they're green.
Are they green?
Are they eco?
Are they responsible?
Are they sustainable?
Are they community oriented?

(14:23):
Have there been any measurableimpacts from your efforts that
you could describe to integratesustainability into what you do?

Speaker 1 (14:31):
It's definitely a big focus for us to try to really
put some strong metrics aroundthe work that we're doing, and I
think that when we look at theevolution of the meaningful
travel map, we're starting tosee the outcomes, because really
we can talk all about themetrics of.
We now have 400 impact partnersand we're working with over 40

(14:54):
destinations.
Just putting enterprises on themap is not good enough.
We have to ensure their successand we have to talk about their
success stories, and I thinkthe best thing for me in terms
of a good example was the tripthat you and I went on to Jordan
last year, because it fellalmost six years from the time

(15:16):
that we did that MeaningfulTravel Summit in 2018.
And we were able to go back andsee a number of those original
12 social enterprises and what Isaw was obviously unfortunate
in terms of the timing of whenwe went, because there was
hardly any tourism that wascoming to the area last year

(15:40):
because of the conflict, as youhad referenced, but what I saw
was incredible changes to theirinfrastructure.
They were so much more tourismready than they had been in 2018
, when they were really likefledgling organizations A
woman's cooperative that we setup as one of our first impact

(16:02):
partners, had about 17, if I'mand the number may be incorrect,
but they're about womenemployees and now they're
employing over 200.
So I think that kind of metricis exactly what we're looking
for to see how these types ofenterprises that are impact

(16:24):
partners, that we've put on themap, how they've thrived and how
they've been able to be able toget integrated into the
itineraries of several touroperators.
Those are the success storiesand those are the metrics that
we like to tell, and I thinkwe're going to be telling that
story to a much greater degreein the years to come.

Speaker 3 (16:46):
You know, greg, I just had an aha moment.
We had a speaker at our ChileanAdventure Travel World Summit
10 years ago, tim Martin.
He was a Canadian ambassadorfor his whole career and his
daughter is Natasha Martin.
So many of you know many of thelisteners probably know Natasha
from her work, her veryimportant work in adventure

(17:06):
tourism development around theworld.
But he gave a reallyinteresting talk because he was
involved in the whole process ofblood diamonds, of identifying
conflict source diamonds andfiguring out how to get those
out of the system.
And he said for these thornyproblems that we're trying to
solve, we need the magictriangle of private businesses,

(17:28):
government and NGOs.
And it just struck me while youwere talking, that's exactly
what happened in Jordan, whereyou had the NGO, the nonprofit
of Tourism Cares.
You had the government, meaningthe tourism department, saying
we will not do any co-opmarketing with you tour operator

(17:48):
, unless you incorporate some ofthese meaningful travel
businesses into the itineraries.
And then you had the businessesthemselves getting involved and
say, yes, we'll include thatwomen's cooperative in our tour.
And so that is the magictriangle coming to life of NGO,
government and business workingtogether with an amazing outcome

(18:09):
.
And I got to see that too onthat trip with you, and it
really it was very touching.
A funny side note Greg andmyself, and pretty much everyone
on that trip, had to go duffelbag shopping to then fill that
with the products from thewomen's cooperative because the
quality was so high and we wereso excited to be supportive as

(18:31):
well.
So, um, yeah, it was really it,it made it.
It's a.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
It's a classic rubber hitting the road yeah, it's a
great story, a nice connectionbetween the two of you, and I'm
just gonna jump back in for amoment because obviously I'm
thrilled that greg is here.
G, obviously I've got actuallya number of questions for you
that I'm keen to come to in amoment, because your background
is so impressive.
I mean, you're a lawyer bytraining.
You spent nearly 20 years atAon and as a senior vice

(18:58):
president doing, like, claims,adjustments and like, so you
have a deep knowledge andbackground in this industry and
you worked for a number oftravel companies and obviously
you've been leading tourismcares now for six years.
So it's it's great to have youon this and obviously to hear
the dynamic you have withShannon.
What I wanted to do, just forour listeners for a moment,
because as we bring ouraudiences together with travel
trends and ATTA, is actuallyestablish some of Shannon's

(19:21):
credibility in this conversation, because my background is not
sustainability, but both of youhave a great deal of expertise
in this space and I saw that formyself when I was in Panama for
the first time just howimportant it is to the community
and how incorporated it is toeverything you do at ATTA,
shannon.
So I'm actually going to turnthe tables for a moment and put
you on the hot seat and ask youa couple of questions, because I

(19:45):
actually was preparing for ourconversation and going back and
educating myself on all thethings that ATTA does with their
membership community aroundsustainability, and so I know
you have a number of differentinitiatives and this has been
such an important driver for you, so why don't you share with
our audience what sustainabilitylooks like at ATTA?

Speaker 3 (20:05):
Sure.
Thanks, dan.
You know it's in progress.
It's always in progress.
It's been in progress since ourearliest days.
So I want to be clear that westill know we have a long way to
go and things will alwayschange going forward.
So I don't view myself asnecessarily an amazing

(20:26):
sustainability expert, more ofjust a willing participant to
try to do the best we can and tohelp our community as well.
So it comes from oursustainability policy today to
the work that we do in the field.
We try to incorporatesustainability into all of our
work, basically intertwined intoeverything we do, and it isn't

(20:47):
always possible, but that's ourgoal.
Probably the most visible partis the membership sustainability
commitment that we launchedlast year, where we asked all of
our members to have ademonstrable commitment to
sustainability and we enable animplementation phase to do it
faster, easier and affordable.

(21:08):
And so we.
So basically, we're workingwith a number of different
organizations to to help us withthat, because we're not
necessarily the experts and wewant to bring the best to our
members.
So when we do but for us, whenwe do an event in a destination,
we have a full checklist andguidelines on how to make events
more sustainable it could beeverything from less carbon

(21:30):
emission, local food sourcing.
We did a vegetarian summit onceto experiment with an entire
summit with no meat Mixedfeedback on that.
But you know, this is also partof the process is just trying
things, testing things, and then, of course, in our destination
development work, when we train,guides, support new product

(21:51):
development, et cetera.
We also offer a fullsustainability resource center
to our members that givesguidelines, webinars, courses,
checklists and it gives people,uh, some framework to work
within.
Um, but I'll share, you know,I'll share a funny story in our
sustainability journey.
We had been it was, I think itwas 2015 and we were trying to

(22:16):
figure out how to make ourevents carbon neutral and we had
this firecracker of a guy who,sadly, uh, rest in peace, rafaio
.
He was a very dear friend ofours, he was a Costa Rican tour
operator and, um, and he, he,you never knew quite what he was
going to say and we made himour MC for the summit.
He was amazing, people lovedhim, but sometimes we were like

(22:39):
God, what's he going to say?
Anyway, it was great, he did agreat job, made people laugh.
But anyway, it was great, hedid a great job, made people
laugh.
And at the last night, at theclosing, he said at the very end
, and he said and I have anamazing announcement to make
Next year, the Adventure TravelWorld Summit will be 100% carbon
neutral, without consulting us,without our plan in place, and

(23:02):
the crowd stands up and we get astanding ovation and our team
looks at each other.
We go oh boy, here we go.
So our friend Rafa kicked usfrom behind and says I'm going
to, I'm going to speed up your,your trajectory, and um, and it
did, and we love him for it andwe miss him.
He was an amazing part of thecommunity and you know, there's

(23:25):
a lesson in there too Sometimeswe need to push each other a
little bit.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
No, it's a great story and it's a very personal
and touching one.
I think that actuallyhighlights even your response
there too, shannon.
I mean being very open, honestabout the journey you've been on
, which is far more transparentthan a lot of organizations
typically are.
And certainly there's been thatconcern in our space about
greenwashing, because one of thetopics I want to get into with
both of you guys today is justhow meaningful sustainability is

(23:49):
in consumers making traveldecisions and affecting their
buying behavior.
But before we dive into thattopic, I just wanted to
acknowledge that, because youcertainly have a great deal of
credibility in this space basedon the organization you run and
the work that you do.
But clearly you are very humbleabout it and that's obviously
to your credit because of thefact that you see what can be
done and you realize that, likeyou're maybe still in the early

(24:12):
stages of realizing all thebenefits and pushing ahead in
this direction.
But to connect you guystogether, I think one of the
things that I would love to getinto and hear both of your
insights on for many people thathave come to this conversation
keen to figure out what theyshould do with their
organization.
So it's one thing, and I'veseen this certainly in my
experience working withcompanies like G Adventures that

(24:33):
have Planetara, or the TravelCorporation that had Treadwright
Many companies have created anarm of their business and then
they've tried to figure out howbest to integrate it and you're
seeing more and more companiesthat are now realizing and I'll
use the example with Treadwrightand these Make Travel Matter.
Experiences and Jordan I went tothe Women's Weaving Project in
Jordan and I similarly had avery profound experience.

(24:54):
It was literally the highlightof our trip to Jordan.
Petra was amazing, but knowfamily and employment and all of
a sudden there was anopportunity and they had meaning
, they had purpose and they hada community, and it's so

(25:16):
profound to see how it canimprove people's lives, how
truly tourism I know that's verycore to the DNA of both of your
organizations.
So what I'd like to get intonow is for those people
listening to this, figuring outwhere they are on the journey
and what are some of the stepsthey can do, so you can help
demystify it a bit for them.
And maybe, shannon, we'll startwith you and go quickly over to

(25:36):
Greg on this, because what aresome of the things that you
would start off with with adviceto other travel businesses that
want to adopt more sustainablepractices and really don't know
where to start.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
You know, that's a very practical question for us
because that's why we launchedthis commitment last year along
with partners.
So some of the partners that wework with are Travel Life,
Green Key, Blue Flag, Anamondialthat's for animal welfare, and
travel PACT is for theprotection of children.
So we've worked with all theseorganizations over the years to

(26:10):
put them in front of our members.
So, for example, Travel Lifehas a low cost aimed at very
small businesses program fortour operators to get their
operations more sustainable, andso what we like to do is just
put those resources in front ofthe ATTA membership to really

(26:33):
try to help push.
We also, you know, and everybodythat works in the industry
knows, that there's an intentiongap between what customers say
they want to do and howresponsible they want to be, and
often what, how they behave,and sometimes it's bad behavior,
Sometimes it's lack ofknowledge, and, and so one of

(26:53):
the one of the things we alsoare are working a lot with
destinations and companies, andthere's a company specifically
called Behavior Smart that doessome amazing work in this area
of taking away some of the badchoices and changing the mindset
to say the customer isn'talways right you guys as tour

(27:16):
operators and destinations andaccommodations.
You have the power to decidehow travelers will behave in
your region.
So there's both a mindset issueand then there's also a tools
issue.
So we try to just put that allin front of our members as much
as we can and then they sharewith each other.

(27:36):
Which is one of the mostpowerful things is when it's
peer-to-peer sharing.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
Yeah, I like that combination of mindset and tools
, because obviously one thing isto shift your mindset, to
figure out that we're going tomake a sustained commitment to
being more sustainable andresponsible, and then the
question obviously then becomeshow?
So having those tools in placeand I guess that's where, greg,
to come back to you on thistopic I mean, you run a great
global organization that iscommitted to a number of the

(28:03):
initiatives of Tourism Care.
Clearly people partner with you.
I know you guys take directdonations as well.
So I would love to know, whenan organization is starting on
this journey and they're tryingto decide, do we partner with an
NGO, as the example you provide, like private companies and
government in that triangle?
But where is it appropriate orwhere is it, I guess, the most

(28:24):
beneficial for a company to workwith a partner like Tourism
Cares?
And then I'm sure you get askedthis question all the time when
other companies are coming toyou to say we want to do more,
we want to do better, whatadvice do you give them to
really advance their journey onthe sustainability front?

Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah, I think, dan, when you talk about coming to an
NGO, I think that that's areally interesting question from
the standpoint that you know.
We all talk a lot about howcollaboration is so necessary to

(29:08):
getting the type of end resultsthat we're looking for.
So we really felt like weneeded to walk the walk as well,
and so we, along with fiveother founding NGOs, created the
Future of Tourism Coalition andwe built various toolkits

(29:29):
together for the industry to beable to tap into our expertise
and our skill set.
But we also worked together todefine 13 different guiding
principles centered aroundproper destination stewardship,
and we then sought signatoriesto support those 13 guiding

(29:51):
principles, and we've beenfortunate to collect over 800
signatories to those guidingprinciples.
So a part of it is just tobring the people under the tent,
have them recognize that thereare multiple resources available
to them, and we do a lot ofpointing fingers not at

(30:12):
ourselves to say tourism caresis the end all solution for you,
but that there's solutionsthroughout our industry and
other NGOs who can help withyour more specific needs or
solutions.
We also use the United Nations,as so many people do the United

(30:32):
Nations Sustainable DevelopmentGoals the 17 goals as guideposts
for the work that we do.
And 17 goals is a lot, noquestion.
So it's hard to put your armsaround 17 goals at once.
So what we always encouragepeople to do is to follow their
heart, look for their passionpoints.

(30:53):
There's a great little shortvideo called the Good Life Goals
that animates the 17 differentsustainable development goals,
creates little characters andthen they basically talk about
what they're about and it's donein very quick fashion and it's
done purposely that way so thatyou will immediately gravitate

(31:16):
to what resonates with you andthat really creates a starting
point for you to say this iswhat means something to me and
therefore that's what I shouldkind of focus on, and I think
that really you can't go wrongwith that, because I don't know.
I Shannon can probably amplify.
He's spoken to many, manydifferent entrepreneurs, like

(31:41):
you know, like I have, who, whenwe ask them why you know this,
what you, what you accomplished,was so great, can you tell me
how you developed your masterplan?
They all say it came about.
It came about organicallybecause I had a belief or I had
a passion around the work that Iwanted to do, and cards fell in

(32:06):
place because I followed myheart, love that also greg.

Speaker 3 (32:11):
On a very practical level, Gustavo from my team and
myself took the sustainabilityworkshop course with Tourism
Cares back early back in 2024.
And it was really really good.
It was comprehensive.
It made us think differentlyabout some of the things that we
were doing, that our industrywas doing, and there was a real
sense of collaboration and I'mstill in regular touch with some

(32:32):
of the things that we weredoing, that our industry was
doing, and there was a realsense of collaboration and I'm
still in regular touch with someof those folks that were in
that cohort who I did not knowbefore.
So that really was a meaningfulexperience that you, your
organization, offers to thetrade and it's free.
People can take this, they cantour operators anybody in the

(32:52):
industry can go through theTourism Cares program and you're
going to learn a lot.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
It's a bit like an early masterclass with USCOA,
nta and, to your point, I thinkit creates a little bit of a
buddy system where you can holdeach other accountable, where

(33:19):
you know that you're just aphone call away from you know
being able to bounce somethingoff of someone else or be able
to say this is the challengethat I'm dealing with.
Have you dealt with this before?
And others who have dealt withthat same challenge will come
forth and say this is how wehandled it.
We don't want you to stumblethe way that we stumbled.

(33:39):
So you know, maybe you want todo it this way.
So I think that you know thebenefits of a cohort type of
exercise and, believe me, it'san exhaustive commitment.
It's 14 weeks in which they'remeeting.
Every other week they gothrough the why of

(34:00):
sustainability into the how andwhen they move into the how.
We use the B Corp assessment asa tool, not for the purpose of
convincing somebody that theyshould become a B Corp.
If that ends up being the endresult, that's great.
But so they get comfortablewith doing measurement, so that

(34:22):
they get comfortable withlooking at their operations and
creating a baseline for wherethey're at, so that they can
measure improvement goingforward.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, it's really fascinating.
I'm learning a lot from thisconversation, especially between
the two of you, because this isthe first chance I've had a
chance to meet Greg Shannon andI obviously know each other
fairly well now.
But, greg, I wanted to keepgoing on this theme because you
just have so much knowledge andexperience on this front, and
one of the things I'm reallykeen to ask you is this question

(34:49):
about are we seeing changes inconsumer behavior?
And, uh, I've certainly seenencouraging signs, but you
obviously have the expertisehere, and Shannon are keen to
ask you this exact question aswell.
So we've talked a lot aboutvarious initiatives.
One of the things that reallystood out to me that you just
highlighted is connecting topeople on a mission or a level
that they'll appreciate, and forme, part of the opportunity to

(35:12):
visit the women's co-op inJordan is because I was raised
by a single mom, and so I'm onlyhighlighting that, because I
feel more of a sense ofconnection to women who find
themselves in that circumstances, because my mom didn't get to
go to university.
We lived together and so wemade ends meet, but she didn't
have the opportunities that shewould have had or were trying to

(35:33):
give our daughter, for example,and that's here in a Western
society.
She grew up in England and herbrother was given the
opportunity to go to university,but a woman.
At that time.
It was like they had one optionand her brother got to go right
.
And so for me that's where Idraw points of connectivity.
So for me that's where I drawpoints of connectivity.
But so how do you and I onlyshare that, not to make the

(35:56):
personal connection with ouraudience, but more so to
highlight the fact that thatmoves me to action.
So what are the things that yousee that actually do move
people to action?
Because clearly wildlife is abig driver of human behavior?
But what are the things that Iguess tourism carers are doing
to move the needle to all thosequestions we were discussing
before about the projects youhave underway, the impact that
you're seeing, but what are youseeing in terms of consumer
behavior and how important thisis becoming, and how do you make

(36:19):
that connection?

Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, that's a great question, because Shannon's
already identified that there'sa bit of a gap in terms of the
way that people kind of like torepresent themselves in terms of
their thoughtfulness aroundtheir travel decisions.
So I would say that I'm alwaysa little bit suspect of survey

(36:43):
results because I think we'dlike to project ourselves in a
way that says oh you know, welook into sustainable options,
but to what degree?
We look into sustainableoptions, but to what degree do
we look into sustainable options?
Are we willing to spend $100more or are we willing to spend
$500 more?
And I think that's where reallythe rubber hits the road.

(37:03):
But what I will say is there'sno question that our industry
unfortunately relativelyunfortunately has always been
and I'm not just singling outour industry, because I think
this speaks to many industriesbut tends to be reactive versus
proactive.
And one thing that will alwayshappen is that if consumer

(37:26):
demand is there, the market willmeet them.
And so, as we know, if theconsumers start asking for
sustainable options, then youwill have the industry meet that
need.
So we're very in tune.
We try to stay very in touchwith what the consumer trends

(37:47):
are.
Obviously, we know that thenext generation of consumers the
ones who are going to bespending their disposable
dollars on travel and have put ahuge premium on travel tend to
have a more sustainable thinking.
They've been kind of born withthat type of thinking of, you

(38:09):
know, being socially andenvironmentally responsible,
looking at their carbonfootprint, and that's in part
because it's really their futureand they're thinking about
their future and they'rethinking about how their travel
impacts their future.
So I think that there is a lotto be said about what we see as

(38:30):
a growing demand for sustainableoptions on the consumer side.
I don't think we're where weneed to be yet.
We and meaning Tourism Cares isB2B focused, and one of the
things that to Shannon's pointabout that kick that his friend

(38:50):
gave them is that sometimes wereally encourage our you know,
our members, tour operators,travel advisors, the whole
travel industry to not wait forconsumer demand to happen, but
to push this type of product outthere and say this is what you

(39:12):
need and this is what you wantand this is what is the
responsible thing to do for ourindustry, and that you know that
sometimes is that kick that,you know, isn't just being
responsive to consumer demand,but just saying this is the
right thing to do and we're aresponsible company and you

(39:33):
should book us because we are.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
I certainly imagine that Shannon gets a few kicks
because, seeing how passionateyour members are at ATTA about
sustainability and I'm sure youkind of get it from both sides
you get the members that areasking you what more can you do?
And then you have theseorganizations that are coming in
to participate with ATTA withthe expectation that
sustainability is at the core ofyour business and they want to
be better associated with eitheran organization like ATTA or

(39:59):
Tourism Cares, and so they'verecognized they're getting the
signals from consumers that theyneed to be more conscientious
themselves about this andthey're trying to figure out
their path and their journey.
But yeah, shannon, I'd love ifyou wouldn't mind adding to that
, just in terms of what you'veseen, as we're here in 2025,
when it comes to consumerbehavior Again, if there's any

(40:20):
encouraging signs of it actuallyinfluencing where they're
choosing to travel to orcompanies they're choosing to
book with.

Speaker 3 (40:26):
Yeah, and I had another thought I wanted to
throw in there and just say andI had another thought I wanted
to throw in there and just saysustainability is such a broad
term and it is confusing andit's also incredibly complicated
.
I'll give you an example,because at one point we had two
members kicking us not us anissue, an issue from the

(40:46):
opposite direction, and theywere totally at odds on what
sustainability meant.
And that was we had a Europeantour operator who said if the
ATTA won't release a 100%anti-hunting statement, then
we're going to cease beingmembers of ATTA.

(41:08):
And at the same time, I thinkthe controversy that got this on
the table was the Namibiantribe was going to, with
permission from government, wasgoing to sell a hunting permit
for an endangered rhino.
Now, on surface that soundsinsane, right, like who's for

(41:30):
that.
But when you get below thesurface, the locals said look,
we spent all of our yearsprotecting this rhino from
poachers.
Biologists have assured us itslifespan is almost over, that it
cannot mate again and that$100,000 means medical clinics

(41:52):
for us.
That gives us a reason toprotect those rhinos throughout
their life cycle.
So don't you tell us we can'tmanage the resource in the way
that we want to, and so we hadthese.
You know the subject was broadlysustainability.
It was very controversial andpeople came down on both sides

(42:14):
of it.
I only bring that up just tosay that it is really a tough.
It requires a lot of thoughtand a lot of context to get
sustainability right.
And even then sometimes wedon't get it right, you know we
get it wrong.
Um so so, first of all, anybodypursuing this path, you know,

(42:34):
kudos to you because it is achallenge.
But then, at the end of the day,on the really simple level,
like what, what can the industrydo?
Cause I, I don't think we canrely on travelers because of
that intention gap.
And again, it may be that thatthere's a lack of knowledge in
many of those situations thatit's not, you know, it's not
that there's a lack of knowledgein many of those situations
that it's not malicious orintentional to have that gap of.

(42:55):
I want to do better, but I'mnot doing better.
I do think the industry, thisis our opportunity and our
obligation to structure so thattravelers do decide to be better
, maybe on that trip or whenthey go back home.
I think it was Cousteau whosaid Jacques Cousteau, you can't

(43:15):
save what you don't love andyou can't love what you don't
know.
So travel companies have thisopportunity to put travelers
into situations and light theirimagination up.
That might be the Women's Coopercooperative in Jordan, where
people understand that, and inthat particular one, greg, I
think I have this right that itwas almost all orphaned women

(43:39):
who really had a pretty bleakfuture without something like
this.
So how incredible and astravelers, our tour guide did an
amazing job of explaining whatit meant, how powerful this was.
We didn't simply whiz by it andwave.
You know, look at the nicepeople.
You know, we stopped in, we hada meal, we talked with them, we

(43:59):
learned, we bought theirproducts, they taught us how to
do a certain kind of painting.
So now I think about that place.
It might be so.
I know of one of our guidemembers took a tier, a celebrity
, on a rhino and a rhinoexpedition in Nepal, and the

(44:22):
outcome of that was thecelebrity wrote a $1 million
check for the local villages tohelp them with their sanitation
systems to reduce pollution intothe environment that the rhinos
were going to be in.
So it was, you know, two birdswith one stone.
It helped the local people andit also helped protect the
environment.
So I think travel's uniquelypositioned to turn people into

(44:48):
advocates, to turn them intoloyalists, and that could go
back home.
I was on a trip once with a touroperator in Jordan who, to be
honest, one of the valleys thatwe went in, the Wadis, had quite
a bit of litter, and while wewere hiking down, one of the
guys just brought out a bag andstarted filling it while we were
talking.
By the end everybody had askeddo you have more of those bags,

(45:17):
you know?
And now when I went back hometo my local park, I'm like I
don't know, I carry a bag when Ido my walk here.
Of course I should do that.
So it changed.
It can change your behavior, itcan change traveler behavior,
but it has to be designed andintentional.

Speaker 1 (45:28):
Yeah, and if I could just add one more thing, it's
just that I think when we thinkabout, you know, csr or
philanthropy, a lot of it had todo with how it made us feel,
you know, as givers, asvolunteers.
You know, the focus was on youknow, we're giving back.

(45:50):
The focus was on we're givingback.

(46:18):
Yes, there was a benefit to thelocal community, but the
emphasis wasn a real impact.
It is companies that are trulylooking to integrate these types
of local enterprises into theiritineraries, give these people,
their travelers, their clients,these enlightening moments that
are transformative and reallythen create incredible impact
for these local communities.

(46:40):
And so I agree completely thatthe days of you know kind of
silent philanthropy beinghonorable, you know kind of
silent philanthropy beinghonorable, where you give money
and you say, oh, but I don'twant the exposure or the
adulation of you know being thisdonor, that those days are gone

(47:10):
, like you should be investingin making an impact and then
talking about it, because thatis what's going to attract
clients, that's going to attractthe consumer public, that's
going to allow them to say thisis a thoughtful and meaningful
company that I want to beassociated with and that I want
to give my dollars with and Iwant to travel with.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
Yeah, all very good points there, greg, this is
conversation is heating up and Ithink one of the things that
Shannon called out there and Iactually I can only imagine the
difficult situations you have tofind yourself in from time to
time because there are strongviews on these topics and I'm
sure there'll be feedback onthis that people have very clear
views in this regard andsometimes opposing views.

(47:48):
As you just highlighted and Ithink that is one of the
challenges for whether it'scompanies or individuals
navigating this space is there'salways this concern of virtual
signaling that like, if you'reentering this space, all of a
sudden it's going to, someone'sgoing to call you out or
criticize you, even though yourattentions may be pure um, but
someone else may think thatthey're they're not well
intentioned or they are.

(48:09):
You know you're takingadvantage of a situation and so
it's.
It's a very difficult one tonavigate it, but the interesting
thing to me I was just going tomention a signal is that in
season three, we did a episodeon sustainability, uh, which
Shannon Guillen was on, ofcourse, who many of you guys
know, the chief sustainabilityofficer for um, the travel
corporation, and runs Treadright.
Um.
We had Christian, who runsGoodwings, based in Amsterdam,

(48:32):
which is all about limitingcarbon impact but putting the
pressure on companies, not onindividuals, and he was very
strong in his views on thatconversation and it was really
and then we had Zach DeM likejust don't have your towels
washed, or some of the verybasic elements that really don't
have a meaningful impact.
Anyway, the reason I referencedthat conversation is because it

(49:05):
was one of our most popularepisodes and it was one of the
reasons that I actually and sothat to me was a sign that
people are interested in thistopic and they're interested in
getting more information andeducating themselves about it.
So I think everything we'vecovered so far is going to be
incredibly valuable.
But one of the things I wantedto dive into with you both,
since we've talked aboutcompanies, we've talked about
organizations is travelersthemselves, because I think that

(49:25):
we see things like bookingcomimplementing like a green filter
so people can actually choosetheir hotels.
And some people will say, well,that's you know, does it make a
difference or not?
Well, if we're starting to putthese tools in the consumer's
hands, where they can makedecisions, how do travelers
navigate the right signals toknow that they're not being

(49:45):
greenwashed or manipulated intothinking something is more
sustainable than it actually is.
Again, that's such a difficultcriteria but, greg, you
specifically mentioned the UNWTOand, although there's a lot of
complexity to understanding, Ihave one of those pins with the
16 colors on them and I can'ttell you what they all represent
, but this is where there is aframework that travelers can

(50:06):
look to to understand differentorganizations.
So, greg, I'd like to go back toyou on this topic and I would
love for you to be able to sharewhat are some of the signals
that consumers, that travelers,should look for in companies
that either work with TourismCares or part of ATTA, or that
are part of the UNWTO and followtheir initiatives.
What are the signals that youwould recommend travelers

(50:29):
listening to this should lookfor?

Speaker 1 (50:31):
Yeah, I think that if you're going to dive into
making a really informeddecision about your travel and
what companies you want to workfor I mean, we know how adept
the consumer is in terms of, youknow, working within the
internet and looking at websites, and I still remark how many

(50:53):
times, you know, I look at thewebsites of various different
travel companies and they don'tmake pronouncements about what
they're doing, when I know infact, they're doing something or
they've made a commitment.
So I think a lot of times it'sa matter of kind of putting your
ethos out there and talkingabout your principles.
Granted, to your point, there'salways going to be maybe a

(51:16):
skepticism, or is theregreenwashing here?
Is this an overstatement orwhatever but I think that if you
don't have anything there, thenatural conclusion there is that
you're not committed or you'renot doing anything.
So I think that, yes, there'salways going to be that

(51:36):
hesitation about how far shouldI go in terms of talking about
what we're doing, but I think asolid commitment and putting
that on your website means a lotto somebody who is being
intentional about their decisionand really looking into well,
which companies should I workwith and what do they stand for

(51:58):
I think it goes pretty far whenyou have certain companies, much
like the Travel Corporation andtheir ethos, and you know the
way that they've designedproduct very intentionally to
ensure that they're includingcommunity-based organizations

(52:18):
and enterprises, that they'revery intentional about making
sure that the money stays inthose local communities, that
they've created a whole set ofstandards by which they go about
choosing who they work with.
They're looking very strongly attheir supply chain and it's

(52:41):
evident, so I think, that a lotof it is just when you do have
that informed traveler who isgoing the extra mile to do the
research.
When they find the informationthat they're looking for and
they find the companies that aretruly committed to doing the
good work, they're going to behappy with their decision.

Speaker 3 (53:04):
Sometimes I get asked by more consumer-focused
publications how can consumerstell if it's greenwashing or not
?
And I always encouragetravelers to ask two lines of
questions.
One is don't say are youresponsible, are you green, are
you a sustainable travel company?
Ask a question like tell meabout your environmental

(53:30):
standards and sort of how youapproach environmental issues in
your destination.
An operator who is doing thosethings, who is very engaged in
it, is going to be able toeasily answer.
The operator who's not doingthat greenwashing is not going
to be able to answer that veryeasily.
They'll stumble all around.

(53:51):
And you can do the same thingon the social side and say tell
me about how your company workswith communities.
You don't have to be an expertto hear that answer and go hmm,
okay, and that sounds a littleweird, or off or not very
engaged, or there was a lot ofstumbling around there, or oh,
yeah, let me tell you about it.

(54:11):
Actually, at our lodge, everyonewho works at the lodge is from
the local tribe.
Actually, I just went on arafting trip in Fiji.
All the guides come from aspecific village in Fiji.
It is Fijian owned and over thelast 25 years, $1 million a

(54:32):
small percentage of everyrafter's fee goes back to that
village, so any kid coming fromthat village can go to college.
Okay, so if you ask youroperator, tell me about how you
work with the community andthat's the answer you get back.
You're like, wow, I mean A, I'mgoing to go on this amazing
experience.
B, I know it's going somewhere,great, oh, I think the consumer

(54:56):
can ask a couple simplequestions and if they're
spending a lot of money on atrip like that, then it matters.
And like Greg said and this isthe stat we bring to governments
all the time, we've done thestudies 65 to 70% of the spend
of an adventure traveler who'sgoing with a company stays in

(55:18):
the destination.
With mass travel that number iscloser to 10 to 15%.
That stays Almost all economicleakage in that scenario.
So it's also a great way to sayis your company locally owned?
Because if it is, a lot of thatspend is going to stay in that
destination.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
That's absolutely one of the priorities for me as a
traveler and it's something Ifelt very strongly about.
Certainly, some of my time atLonely Planet was how do you get
money in the hands of localpeople?
And there was a big debate atthe time about Myanmar Burma as
it was formerly called whetheror not they should be publishing
a guidebook, and they stronglyadvocated that they would
continue to, despite themilitary junta that

(55:58):
unfortunately operate a lot ofthe hotels, and so there's this
question about how much isactually getting to locals and
how much is supporting theoppressors, but nevertheless,
that's a conversation that needsto be had, just like the
conversation we're having todayand that getting money in the
hands of locals.
So I've certainly seen that,shannon.
It was very profound for me, asI mentioned at the beginning of
this podcast, being at an ATTAevent and seeing firsthand,

(56:23):
obviously, a number of membersof Greg's team from Tourism
Cares that were there and justhow woven into the community
this whole idea ofsustainability are, because
these are a lot of smallbusinesses that come from around
the world that are veryconscientious about
sustainability, protecting theenvironment, cultural
preservation all the things thatare actually paramount for an
amazing guest experience in thatdestination.
So they're already, and this iswhy I love this industry so
much and see us I saycollectively, but really it's
the two of you as being ahead ofthe curve than other sectors of

(56:47):
travel that have more catchingup to do, like the cruise sector
, for example I'm just going tocall them out.
Right now it's one of the areasI haven't cruised for that
exact reason, and I know morework's being done to create
alternative fuel sources andaddress some of the issues with
dumping waste in the oceans.
But these are the big questionsof our times.

(57:09):
With respect to the fact thatwe all acknowledge that climate
change is real, that's not adebate that we need to have
amongst this group, for sure,and our world is changing in
many ways that we're concernedabout.
And so one of the things I'dlove to kind of finish off on
and obviously, shannon, this isour show, so when we close off,
we're each going to share a fewupdates and then talk about the

(57:31):
next episode, what we want toget into.
But given all the things we'vediscussed today, I want to give
you each the floor with one kindof bigger final question, if
you will, which is where youthink we're headed in regards to
sustainable tourism, sort of inthe next five years.
So we're having thisconversation in 2025.

(57:51):
We're all looking towards whatthe world could look like at
2030.
And currently we live in quiteuncertain geopolitical times.
So I think we just have toacknowledge that factor as well.
But when I, greg, when youthink about your work, what I'm
guess, what I'm keen tounderstand and give you the
floor to uh to finish off onthis is like what keeps you
motivated to uh, to continue,continue in this space.

(58:12):
Um, how are you seeingtechnology as a uh, as a driver
or as a, as a benefit to pushingin this direction?
And really, I guess, what doyou envision this world of
sustainable tourism looking like, you know, just five years from
now?

Speaker 1 (58:27):
You mentioned early on, dan, and I appreciate the
fact that you recognized my pathand it included time spent in
the insurance sector within thetravel and tourism industry.
Within the travel and tourismindustry, I frame a lot of my
thinking around.
You know my insurancebackground and what I learned

(58:49):
through insurance.
I see in many ways, the workthat we do at Tourism Cares to
be simply risk management andwe're talking about protecting
the assets Without preservingthe people and places of travel.
We really don't have a productto sell, and the very

(59:11):
interesting thing about ourindustry unlike other industry
where you might have a tangibleproduct, something you can
actually just hold is thatnobody really owns it.
And if you really think aboutwho owns it, it's the people,
it's the local people, and soyou know.

(59:33):
So when you take all of thatdynamic into play and you think
about risk management principlesand you think about insurance,
you talk about insurable riskand to me it's just fascinating
to watch.
Obviously, the effects ofclimate change make hurricane
season one in which you knowthere's a cat four hurricane

(59:57):
every other week and you knowand cat five hurricanes that are
starting in the first week ofhurricane season.
I mean these are, these aredynamics that are really hard to
you know, get your arms aroundwhen you think about it.
But when I think about it inthe insurance context, you know

(01:00:19):
it's very well known now, as weas we've seen with the LA fires
and with the number ofhurricanes that have hit Florida
the areas now that insurancecompanies are not going to
insure.
And there was a time when I wasin the insurance industry when
I thought everything isinsurable.

(01:00:40):
Now, granted, there would be acost, a premium, to insuring
everything.
But literally, you know, onewould say, well, at the right
price, everything's insurable.
And I think we are now movinginto a space where there are a
number of risks that are notinsurable anymore or won't be

(01:01:02):
insurable.
And what does that mean?
It means that we need toself-insure.
And what does that mean evenfurther?
That we, as an industry, needto create the protection around
our assets and we need to beable to invest to ensure that
our assets remain there forfuture generations and so

(01:01:28):
bringing the industry together.
You know it's unfortunate that.
You know people only learn bestwhen they either hit rock
bottom or something hits themsquare in the face.
Either hit rock bottom orsomething hits them square in
the face, and I think we'rebeing hit square in the face
with a lot of different things,including catastrophes, and

(01:01:52):
including a number of thingsthat dynamics that have made
travel very difficult, all sortsof disruption, and you know,
we're seeing now.
How do we manage through those,how do we operate trips with
all of these dynamics going on?
And these are now allself-managed types of scenarios.
It's not something that you canjust say well, I transfer this

(01:02:15):
over to an insurance policy andlet that insurance policy
protect me, but things that weare, we naturally have to be
invested in if we're going toensure that we have product
going forward.
So we need to protect ourassets and we need to do that
collectively, as an industrytogether.

(01:02:36):
Like I said, to me, it justgoes hand in hand with my
insurance background becauseit's just an element of
self-insuring and I'm glad thatI get to be kind of at the
center of working with theindustry to do exactly that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
Yeah, that's awesome, Shannon.
What about yourself?
Same question, man what do youthink about the next three or
five years and what keeps youmotivated and what else are you
seeing changing in thesustainability space?

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
What keeps me motivated is our members.
Honestly, when I see the thingsthat they do, the programs that
they're doing whether it's, youknow, rhino conservation or
integrating locals into thetourism supply chain in a
meaningful way so that it'sbeneficial, that's motivating to

(01:03:26):
me, my team is motivating to meand my team is also motivated
by the industry.
We many times have members cometo us.
We're so inspired by ATTA, likeyou know where we get that
right From you.
It really is a virtuous circle,and you know I get that right
from you.
It really is a virtuous circle.
And you know I've worked in twoother industries before travel,

(01:03:47):
and travel is definitely themost, the most um integrated
from a relationship standpoint.
We really all do depend on eachother.
What do I think aboutsustainability in the next three
to five years?
I think there's some goodtechnological advances.
We've got a program for travelcompanies called Tomorrow's Air

(01:04:09):
and it's a climate effort.
It's entirely based on tech andwe decided that we were going
to move away from carbon offsetsbecause so many organizations
do that.
So we're focused only oncutting edge technologies that
are capturing and storing carbonpermanently.
And yes, it's more expensive,yes, it's more niche, but it'll

(01:04:30):
be a part of the future, so I'mexcited about that.
There's conundrums.
You know AI is going to helpsolve some sustainability
problems.
It also, an ai search consumes20 to 30 times the amount of
energy that a google search does.
So there's that, you're right,it's.

(01:04:52):
It's kind of like theconservation complexity.
Where you can, you can see howit isn't simple.
It's going to be verycomplicated.
But I do think that that moreand more companies in the
industry are interested in theirsustainability journey.
We did a survey during COVIDwhere an interesting pattern
came back to us, which was itwas the younger staff in

(01:05:15):
organizations that wereagitating their own companies
for more sustainability effort.
And so I think the fact thatyoung people are coming into the
space and I do not includemyself in that category and
they're pushing the limits.
Sometimes I will joke with someand say they may not even fully

(01:05:36):
understand, but at least theirmotivations are right, let's
push for this.
And they may not be absorbingall of the complexities of a
story yet, but it's good to knowthat there is this energy
coming to us and then, at theend of the day, I'm sure Greg
would feel the same way, butanyone who's not protecting the

(01:06:00):
locals and the environment inthe places that they take their
tours is using it, and that is alimited future and I really
feel like that has to stopbecause they will lose those
assets and those will go awayforever.
Once you destroy a culture,destroy a certain environment,

(01:06:20):
the environment might make itsway back 100 years down the road
.
There's a road near our househere, and I've lived off and on
in this spot in Colorado forwell.
We moved here in 1981.
And there's a place where someguy rode a four-wheel drive up
the side of a mountain where heshouldn't have.

(01:06:41):
I remember those two tracksfrom when I was a kid.
No one has ridden on it since.
I can still see those twotracks.
You know so many, so many yearslater, 40 years later, and so
that may eventually recover.
But when a culture goes away, alanguage dies gone.
So I think there needs to be anurgency in the industry, in the

(01:07:05):
travel industry, to say we needto do everything we can to
protect what's there and if wearen't doing that, we're not
doing it right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
Well, I'm definitely hearing the urgency in your
voice, and I'm sure all ourlisteners are as well, and I
think that's why we definitelyneeded to have this conversation
, first and foremost, becausethere couldn't be a more
important topic that we need todive into, and certainly we will
likely come back to thisconversation again in short
order, if not always, touch onit on each of our episodes as we
figure out the right format andget feedback from all of our

(01:07:33):
listeners as to what they wouldlike to hear from us on these
adventure series over the courseof the year.
But just in closing, I want togive Greg the floor first, and
then Shannon, and I'll quicklysay a word to wrap up myself.
But I really I want to giveGreg the opportunity to make
sure everyone knows how they canfind out more information about
Tourism Cares so they canpartner with you, also connect
with you directly, given yourinspiring background and the

(01:07:56):
fact that you are clearly verymotivated to remain in this
space.
So I'm sure there's a lot thatpeople can continue to learn
from you and stay connected toyou and the things that you're
going to be sharing.
So, greg, tell us all thoseways that our listeners can stay
in touch.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
Well, of course, come to our website, sign up for our
newsletter.
More importantly, join us.
We're going to be doing a NorthAmerican Roadshow this year.
Our traditional MeaningfulTravel Summit is done in one
destination as a host.
This year we have threeseparate destinations, so

(01:08:30):
instead of having one three-dayevent, we're having essentially
three more or less one-dayevents in Miami in May, in
Pittsburgh in October and inGalveston in November.
So please join us.
This is a great opportunity andI think, dan, you hit on it on
your intro when you talked aboutthe experience that you had in

(01:08:51):
Panama, the experience you'vehad in Jordan.
It only becomes real when peopleget a chance to see it and
touch it, and so we really tryto ensure that our meaningful
travel summits have that elementof bringing people together,
educating them but, mostimportantly, getting them out

(01:09:12):
into the community to have aninteraction with the local
community, see what localcommunity change makers are
doing on the sustainabilityfront, how they're meeting their
challenges, how they'reaccomplishing what they're doing
to bring their destination tothe next level.

(01:09:33):
And you know that's a greatexperience and really fortunate
that.
You know we've had theopportunity to collaborate with
organizations like ATTA, so wecontinue to support the industry
and all of the events that allof us have, because there's

(01:09:55):
something for everyone.
So, whether you come to ourroadshow, whether you join ATTA
at one of their events, there'sgoing to be that element of
being able to have a touch pointwith a local community, to
learn best practices that youmay not have been aware of, that
hopefully activate you, to makea commitment to go back home,

(01:10:18):
to go back to your workplace,your home, your community, and
take those lessons and dosomething good.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
Fantastic.
Thank you, greg.
I can't thank you enough forjoining this conversation.
I think this for sure is notonly where we need to start, but
I think even our listeners,hearing all of those ways, they
can get active, they can getengaged, they can get involved
in the 10-year events.
I sincerely hope that all ofyou listening to that take up
that opportunity.
I'm sure many people listeningto this from the ATTA community

(01:10:47):
are already planning to, but Icertainly wanted to acknowledge
that from all of our traveltrends listeners, usa is our
largest market for our listeners, so I strongly encourage you to
get involved in tourism cares.
So, looking forward to this and, greg, you are a real
professional and a real strongleader in this space.
So, yes, thank you for this,and, shannon, clearly the same
applies to you, but telleveryone, if you wouldn't mind,

(01:11:09):
all of our listeners across bothof our organizations, how they
can connect with you and findout more information about ATTA
and any kind of closing remarksyou might have for our first
episode here with Greg.

Speaker 3 (01:11:19):
First of all, go to our website, adventuretravelbiz
B-I-Z, and you'll findeverything there that you need
to get engaged with us.
We'd love to have you join as amember it's very affordable, we
have different levels fordifferent size companies and
then show up at one of ourevents.
You know, in the world ofincreasing tech, I'm convinced

(01:11:42):
that those in-person events,face-to-face, are ever more
important, because the travelindustry is based on trust, and
so that is how you build thoserelationships.
We have three events that I'llhighlight.
One is in Bonito, brazil, inApril.
We have Denver, colorado, inMay, and what's different about

(01:12:03):
this one?
For us, it's Adventure Elevateand it is a trade gathering, but
it's butted up against theOutside Festival, which is a
consumer festival, and therewill be 20,000 people walking
through there this year to comelisten to the music, eat the
food, drink the drinks, go tothe travel section and go meet

(01:12:24):
with travel providers.
We have about 20 of our memberswho are exhibiting there, so
it's an experiment with a B2Band B2C component.
And then, of course, our annual, our big annual event is the
Adventure Travel World Summit,which is going to be in Puerto
Natales, chile.
So Patagonia people everybody'sbucket list Come to Patagonia.

(01:12:44):
And of course, we'll hit AI,marketing, risk management,
succession, all those sorts ofimportant business subjects, and
then, of course, advancing thesustainability journey.
So find us online and reach out.
I'm on LinkedIn.
I'm happy to talk with anybodywho wants more information, and
what a pleasure to share thisstage with Greg, who's just an

(01:13:07):
amazing, amazing colleague, andI love that we are able to work
together in many differentaspects in the industry.
It's really great to work withyou, greg.

Speaker 1 (01:13:18):
Well, I feel the same .
Shannon, Thank you for havingme.
It's awesome.
I feel like we're at the end.
Shannon, Thank you for havingme.
It's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
I feel like we're at the end of a conference, when
everyone's just good, it's agroup hug time.
That's what I was amazed I'venever been to a conference
before when I first arrived andthe two conference organizers
are on the dance floor and Ilikened going to this event as
like going to a wedding, becausethere was Shannon and Gabby.
I've never seen that People arehiding on the first night
because they're so terrified ofthe first day and all things

(01:13:44):
could go wrong.
And there you guys were jammingout to this great band and then
on the last day that band comesout again and we're all,
everyone's up and dancing andthere's this great feeling of
community and it's just awonderful spirit and sentiment.
Anyway, I'm so looking forwardto uh being back, both for the
adventure world summit in chile.

(01:14:05):
So a big thanks to shannon forthat invitation, shannon, gabby
and the whole team.
And then I'm going to be indenver as well, and the reason
I'm mentioning that now for allthe atta listeners is that I
want to make sure I give you avoice on travel trends.
I tried to capture as many uhconversations as I could and
I'll committed to doing the samething at both of those events.
So they're going to set me upwith a space.
Feel free to reach out inadvance.
I'll try and schedule time withas many people that are keen to

(01:14:28):
be able to share their story,share their journey, promote
their business, and I'll weaveit into a few really special
episodes.
So that's my commitment toShannon and the team for being
at both of those events and,obviously, all of our Travel
Trends listeners.
I encourage you to learn moreabout ATTA and get involved in
the members.
I think there's a great overlap, certainly with our listeners
of my background that likelyalready are.

(01:14:49):
But for those of you whohaven't yet, get involved in
ATTA and learn more aboutTourism Cares.
I think everyone got that.
From today's conversation, gregand I certainly, I not only
learned a lot, but I have someclear thoughts in my mind of
things that I want to dodifferently for this year and
going into next year, and howI'm even approaching this whole
topic.
So thank you for enlighteningme and thanks to you both for

(01:15:10):
making this first episode sospecial, and I'll leave us, I
guess, with let us know yourthoughts, post comments, give us
feedback, let us know whereyou'd like the conversation to
go If you want Greg to come backevery time and you want this to
be the adventuroussustainability episode series
for 2025, let us know that,because I think I could imagine

(01:15:31):
just keep doing this, but, um,likely we need to expand the
conversation, so let us know thetopics you want to hear about,
um, and give us some feedback onthis episode as well.
But thank you again, greg, forbeing here, thank you for
Shannon for co-hosting this, andI look forward to everyone
joining us on the next episodeof the Adventure Series ATTA and
Travel Trends.
Thanks so much for joining uson our first episode of our
Adventure Travel TradeAssociation and Travel Trends
partnership with our AdventureSeries for 2025.

(01:15:54):
I hope you enjoyed thediscussion today with Shannon,
my co-host, and, of course, gregTakahara, the CEO of Tourism
Cares.
Happy Earth Day again, everyone.
I hope you found this episodeinspiring and insightful and
we'll look forward to continuingthe conversations live in
Denver at the end of May, ifyou're able to join us.
Check out more details atVentureTravelbiz and remember we

(01:16:15):
post clips and highlights ofall of these conversations on
our social channels, so be sureto check those out at
TravelTrendsPodcastcom orAdventure Travel and Trade
Association on Instagram, onYouTube and LinkedIn.
Now for our next conversation.
If you want to reach out, ifyou're going to be in Denver,
let me know, because I'd love tobe able to record with you live
, and we're also keen to hearyour continued suggestions for

(01:16:36):
additional topics and guests.
You'd like us to feature onthis adventure series with
Shannon and I, so feel free toreach out to us directly by
email or at Dan at Travel TrendsPodcast or Shannon at
AdventureTravelbiz, or just posta comment on the social
channels or a review and give usyour feedback and suggestions
for future episodes, and we lookforward to hearing from you and

(01:16:58):
joining us next time.
Until then, safe travels.