Event Spotlight: Educational Travel Consortium (ETC) Conference 2025

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Travel is not something that you give up.
It is actually not a want, itis a need for most people.
The question is how much arethey able to do physically,
legally, you know, monetarily,you know, but people don't give
up travel.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hello everyone and welcome to a special event
spotlight of Travel Trends.
This is your host, DanChristian, and today we're going
to be looking at theEducational Travel Consortium
Conference that was hosted inMobile, alabama, this year in
2025.
I had the privilege to attendand give a keynote on AI, which
you can find on our YouTubechannel at Travel Trends Podcast

(00:51):
, but today's focus is on theevent itself how it came to be
and the incredible people thatcome together every year for
this remarkable conference thatI knew very little about before.
I had heard about ETC, as it'soften referred to, and you're
gonna hear today from thefounder, mara, who kindly
invited me to participate inthis year's event, along with a

(01:12):
number of my amazing colleaguesthat participate in this event
every year.
Ian Kynor is one great exampleand it's someone that I worked
really closely with at theTravel Corporation when I was
running Contiki USA.
He was an absolute all-star onthat team and he's gone on to
lead National GeographicLindblad Expeditions and he's
actually part of the advisoryteam for ETC, so it was so great

(01:34):
to catch up with him at theevent and you'll hear from Ian
in this conversation as well.
You'll hear from Susan Black,who runs Wowzitude, which is a
fascinating company.
I've known Susan for many years.
She's been an industryexecutive.
She has so much to offer.
She was also doing a session onAI, as you'll hear, but she was
another key reason that I wentto this event this year.

(01:55):
You're also going to hear fromacademics, industry leaders from
across the US, with a number ofdifferent universities and
colleges that come together forthis event.
So, to give you some contextabout how ETC came together, it
all really leads back to oneextraordinary individual and
that is the founder, mara, andMara created this really unique

(02:18):
organization way back in 86.
She held the very firstconference in Washington all
those years ago and her focuswas really about bringing
together the nonprofit travelplanners so that they could
network, collaborate and sharebest practices.
And she started in the museumspace, interestingly enough, but
it quickly expanded.

(02:39):
And now this group that comestogether.
There's about 300 individualsthat come together for this
annual conference and theycontrol billions in travel spend
, which is why you have some ofthe biggest suppliers there as
well in what's known as affinitytravel.
And so today you're going tohear from some of those colleges
and those organizations.
You're also going to hear fromAlan Mershon, who came in as one

(03:02):
of the extraordinary keynotespeakers.
He's a big figure in the travelindustry.
I have a great admiration forAlan.
He built up one of the mostsuccessful marketing agencies in
the travel industry, myriad,which was sold to MMGY, of which
he's still a partner and veryactive in the whole travel and
investment space.
So you're going to hear fromAlan in these conversations.

(03:22):
You're also going to hear fromsomeone that I had the privilege
to get to meet for the veryfirst time and his name is Jim
Friedlander and he runs acompany called Arrangements
Abroad which is based in NewYork City and they run
seven-figure programs for manyof the most high-profile people
to run exclusive private trips,and these can be celebrities,

(03:42):
they can be four-star generals.
He does a lot of work withgovernment.
These businesses that cometogether for this annual event
was absolutely fascinating and Ithink you're going to gain a
lot of valuable insights fromall of these conversations.
So I just want to say thank youagain to Mara and the team at
ETC for bringing me in to give akeynote.
I was thrilled to hear thatI've been invited back for next

(04:04):
year, which is a real thrill aswell, and it was wonderful to
meet so many incredible people.
So I hope, as you hear from thiscross section of really
fascinating individuals thatcome together for the
Educational Travel ConsortiumConference every year, you'll
consider becoming a member orgetting involved.
And for those of you who aregoing to be multitasking while
you're listening to this, youhave to check out
educationaltraveltravel that istheir main website and when you

(04:28):
do, check out the historysection and read the remarkable
story of Mara and how shecreated this organization,
because she was so far ahead ofher time she was literally
working on a boat for the firstfew years, which is now
achievable today, but this islong before the internet or
having a laptop, and somehow shewas able to pull this off.
And so when you read her story,you realize just how ahead of

(04:50):
her time she was, and then youalso get an understanding of how
closely knit this community isand how much they rely on the
relationships that they'veestablished over the course of
10, 20 years, how much theystill interact, do business
together and refer clients.
So it is a really specialcommunity and it was a privilege
to be a part of it and also tojoin Mara for the closing

(05:13):
session of the conference, and Ican't wait to be back next year
.
So, on that note, let me bringyou the event spotlight from
Mobile Alabama and all of theseextraordinary people that came
together for this event, andstart off with my good friend
Susan Black from Wowzitude.
Susan, great to have you onthis very special event
spotlight.
Thanks again for theopportunity to be here.

(05:34):
I'm so looking forward to ourchat today.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
Oh, dan, thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
I'm thrilled to be on the program Well you had a
cameo appearance for some of ourlisteners at the Focusrite
Spotlight episode that we didlast Christmas, and so I'm
thrilled to have you back.
And also, beyond thisconversation we're going to have
now, we're actually going tohave Susan on a dedicated
episode, so be sure to look outfor that, because she's got an
amazing story to tell with thisproject that she's been working

(05:59):
on for the last four yearsWowzaTube.
We'll talk a little bit aboutthat now, but let's just start
off Susan with ETC and whatbrings you here, because this is
your first year, but I knowyou've been involved with this
organization for a little while.
Tell us a little bit about whatbrings you to ETC and then also
give all of our listeners a bitof an overview of Wowzitude and
what you do.

Speaker 3 (06:18):
So, dan, this is great and, oh my God, this has
been quite an adventure.
This lifelong learningconference and that's the
operative word.
So ETC, of course, educationalTravel Consortium really focuses
, as we know, on alumni andmuseum and cultural travel
planners and the tour operatorsthat support them.
As you know, I've been a touroperator myself, either

(06:41):
consulting with or operating asa tour operator for a number of
years, and this particular partof the industry, this niche,
part of really what we callculturally curious, is just
mother's milk to Wowzitude,because that's really why we
started this.
It's really in depth in many,many different countries, like,

(07:01):
for example, wowzitude is now inover 200 different cities with
live streaming tours, withlicensed guides, storytellers in
each of these cities, 160actually guides under contract,
and they are there to reallyinspire, inspire travel to these

(07:21):
culturally rich centers, bothwell-known ones like London,
paris, rome and Hidden Gems.
So really tapping into thealumni travel planner market and
the museum travel plannermarket and we have many of them
currently as partners is justterrific.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
Well, it's certainly a perfect partnership and when I
saw you present yesterday andthen came by your booth set up
for Wowzitude, it's very clearthat this audience is a perfect
fit and a match for what you do.
So let's make sure that all ofour listeners actually know a
little bit about Wowzitude andwhy you're in 200 Cities, so
give everyone the background ofthis really fascinating business
and where you guys are at today.

Speaker 3 (08:02):
Well, Dan, we started as a COVID catalyst.
As everyone who knows me knows,I've been very involved for my
entire career in getting peopleover to fabulous places all
around the world as an outboundtour operator and also as a
consultant to enhancing people'sexperiences.
And when COVID hit, we all hada problem.

(08:24):
It was lockdown, right.
So what were we going to do?
Well, we started Wowzitude toreally inspire people at that
time.
Now then, it was really morelifelong learners, not knowing
if it would translate intoin-person bookings, right.
But when we did a pilot for ayear with Untours, which is the

(08:44):
world's first B Corporation, andactually Richard Edwards, who's
a CMO there, who I know formany years, inspired me and said
I think that this will inspireour 60,000 group to really
explore some new places.
But let's do a pilot and let'sfigure it out, to really explore

(09:06):
some new places.
But let's do a pilot and let'sfigure it out.
So we switched in year threefrom doing lifelong learners,
not knowing that that wouldinspire in-person bookings.
And so that's where we aretoday.
So that's how we've grown, andwe found that, whether it's fam
trips for travel advisors,whether it's inspiring folks
because they want to know moreabout it, we also have trip kits

(09:29):
, which are eight-page in-depthbooks, movies, recipes, all
sorts of things to inspirepeople about a destination, and
what we found is that, yes, thisis inspirational.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
That's fantastic.
So take everyone on the journeyof this experience.
I mean, obviously we're audiohere so we can't share the video
, but obviously that is the keyto the experience.
So tell everyone a bit aboutwhat it is to experience a
Wowzitude virtual experience,and I guess that was the
partnership you mentioned withUntours.
I know this came up as aquestion for yesterday in the
session is how, then, that leadsto people actually traveling in

(10:03):
person as well.

Speaker 3 (10:05):
So we actually don't use the V word.
I know virtual because peopleget confused.
Virtual reality there's nothingvirtual reality about it.
This is a live streaming tour.
I always joke with people.
I'm like do you see a virtualSuper Bowl?

Speaker 4 (10:18):
Oh, you see a live streaming of the.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
Super Bowl on TV.
In our case, though, it'scompletely interactive, which
means that we do this at scale,because we work exclusively with
organizations and we work B2B.
So right now, we're at 300organizations and we reach close
to 2 million potentialtravelers.

(10:41):
Oh my God, in four years.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
That's incredible potential travelers.

Speaker 3 (10:43):
Oh my God, in four years we have roughly between
7,000 and 9,000 people on eachof our tours, so think about a
walking tour.
You know the guy who's got hislittle box and he's walking
through the streets, except,instead of having 9,000 people
behind him, they are getting itat home and they're looking at
it and they're able to askquestions and you know it's

(11:03):
quite a visual if you thinkabout it 9,000 people.
We joke about that with ourguides oftentimes, but we do for
each of our guides we do abouteight hours of mandatory
training.
So, even though they'relicensed guides and storytellers
, we train best practices in theequipment, in talking to people
who are engaging at home, andit's quite an interesting

(11:26):
experience.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
Well, let's make the connection back to what brings
us here, because clearly, as Imentioned and it was certainly
the case in your first sessionseeing you in the international
bazaar, I guess is that theyrefer to it.
I know you've got anothersession coming up tomorrow on AI
, which is right after mykeynote, which is obviously the
big reason I'm here in additionto recording this podcast, but
tell us a little bit about howthe ETC community will be able

(11:50):
to benefit from Wowzitude andthe partnerships and where you
see the potential witheducational travel.
I mean, there's a number ofthings that stand out that are
obvious to me and I know you'vealready highlighted a couple,
but tell us some of the otherthings you're looking forward to
benefiting from being here at.

Speaker 3 (12:00):
ETC.
Well, you know, it's reallyinteresting and I'm glad you
brought up the session yesterdaybecause when Mara, who is the
CEO and organizer of this, askedme to speak at that session we
live in a very uncertain times,I think is a good way to put it
there's a lot of stuff going onin the world and for these
alumni museum and culturaltravel planners who are planning

(12:23):
three years in advance and theyhave a very discerning group
right, so they want culturalexperiences, but sometimes that
may take them to places that areunfamiliar.
In some cases there may bemedia reports about it.
You never know what's going tohappen, particularly in the
three years, even with aquote-unquote safe place.

(12:43):
But there's things that happenfires and ash clouds and all
sorts of things.
Again, as tour operators, ofcourse, we've always handled
that.
But a lot of the questions are,especially when you're dealing
with affluent travelers who arealumni and they're over the age
of 50 or 55, there's the safetyissue, there's the comfort issue

(13:05):
, there's the group issue.
What live stream tours do is itgives the authenticity.
It often calms uncertain nervesbecause they can see if they've
heard or read that there's aprotest, for example, in Mexico
City.
They're walking right throughit and there's the protest
behind.
It's perfectly safe and there'severybody having coffee and

(13:25):
enjoying themselves.
So you, you know, sometimeswhat we read in the media or
what we hear, certainly when wehave groups going out, is a
challenge for planners.
And so, when you see it withyour own eyes, it's not a b-roll
, it's not a website, it's notmarketing.
It's the real thing, with areal guide that you can ask
questions, because it'scompletely marketing.
It's the real thing, with areal guide that you can ask

(13:45):
questions, because it'scompletely interactive.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
It gives peace of mind one of your colleagues
who's uh here as well, karen,who works with you on wowsitude.
Tell us a little bit about theteam that you have not only
you've brought together for thisevent, but some of your plans
to expand wowsitude, becauseclearly you're going from
strength to strength.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
Well, thanks, yeah, thanks, yeah, we've grown really
quickly.
So Karen Brown has joined ourteam.
Actually, she and I workedtogether 20 years ago.
She was chief marketing officerover at Liberty Travel Go-Go,
where I was as well, and she wasthere during the Flight Center
years as well, so she has atremendous background.
One of our other founders isCecilia Dahl, who for many years

(14:25):
was over at Colette Vacationsand then she started Smart
Destinations, which, of course,was sold to GoCity.
So all of our principals and ouramazing advisory board has
years and years of experience intravel knows how to put
together these great programs.
Travel knows how to puttogether these great programs

(14:46):
and, to your point, dan, we haveexpanded out.
We're actually it's a lot ofword of mouth and if you haven't
heard about Wazitude, now youhave but we are getting a lot of
traditional tour operators now,especially after the Untours
pilot and Richard and I wereboth in Istanbul at the Society
of American Travel Writersspeaking there.
We got a lot of buzz there andsince that time and since we've

(15:12):
made really the focus and theswitch to travel to promote and
inspire and give peace of mindto travelers, we're firmly back
in the industry.
We started off with again,lifelong learners, especially
during COVID, who were notnecessarily planning travel and,
of course, like many startups,our startup has now evolved into
those not necessarily planningtravel and, of course, like many
startups, our startup has nowevolved into those who are
planning travel.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
Now that's great.
I think one of the things thatstood out to me too was
specifically their background ontour operators.
Obviously I know Richard aswell.
We crossed over at G Adventuresand I highly respect and admire
him as a marketer and I likewhat he's doing at Untour.
So it was a great partnershipcertainly between the two of you
, both as leaders in thisindustry, and two strong brands.
But I guess the other thing Iwould highlight too to your
point about tour operators isthat there is a massive growing

(15:52):
market for group tours.
Obviously you know that Some ofour listeners certainly know
that from my background and whenI was just at ITB that group
tours are outpacing independenttravel and the one category for
sure that you're very aware ofis solo female traveler.

Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
And the part that really stood out to me about
that, and it was interestingbecause you also organized a guy
named Michael Clinton that camein today, who is an author of a
book called Roar, and he gavean outstanding keynote this
morning.
I think it's going to be thebest keynote of the conference
no disrespect to Al or what I'mgoing to do tomorrow of the
conference, no disrespect to Alor what I'm going to do tomorrow
, but it was a really specialkeynote.
And, yeah, one of the things hehighlighted was this whole
concept of longevity and he wastalking about women 50 plus and

(16:32):
how they basically rule thetravel world.

Speaker 3 (16:35):
Yeah, well, I'm in that category too, so all good,
yes, it was quite eye-opening.
The focus is really on theconcentration of wealth, quite
frankly, and the discretionarytime and, as we know, where you
know women go, men will followif it is they're making the

(16:55):
choices.
But nowadays a lot of women wantto go either solo or want to go
with women groups.
As a matter of fact, I just gotback from four women in Mexico
City and you know we all leftour husbands at home, all good,
and you know we had a fabuloustime, and we're seeing a lot of
these mix and match, whetherit's solo travel, whether it's

(17:16):
women traveling with othergroups of women, and then at
times couples travel, so it'snot just one trip a year.
I mean, those days are gone andwe want to experience things
with people we're close with oron our own and meet new friends
in a group setting.
So, absolutely small grouptours are hot and, again, people

(17:38):
want to know what to expect.
And especially for hidden gemareas, especially for hidden gem
areas, you know we also talk alot about over tourism and we
don't want to go to the sameplaces over and over again, but
we may not know about Ljubljana,slovenia, and we may not know
about Tbilisi in Georgia, andthese are fantastic places and
when you go and you get inspiredby, you get a taste of it.

(17:58):
Our tours are one hour long,right interactive.
You can find out more and youcan discover more.
And also in the industry fortravel advisors, there's a lot
of change over and there is noway that advisors can know 200
different cities or destinations.
So think of this as theultimate fam trip.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned those
examples because certainly, asthere's more of a concern about
over-tourism and some of thesedestinations that people are
more familiar with, like veniceis a good example, doesn't
matter, seems to be how muchrestriction or additional cost
they add, people are still goingto venice, but the reality is
the experiences you can have ina place like slovenia, albania,
colombia, some of thesedestinations that have

(18:40):
perception challenges.
There's great value to be had.
There is far less crowds, butthe one challenge people always
have and obviously this issomething you know is that when
they're trying to commit totaking a week holiday, it's not
just the cost, it's the value oftheir time.
So if they get a chance tosample it and this is where I
cannot believe how manycompanies moved away from what I

(19:00):
thought was a really excitingopportunity Airbnb with virtual
experiences and I say you don'tuse the V word, but we were
working with Airbnb during thepandemic, with Contiki and some
of the travel corporation brands, and also with Amazon had a
brief kind of like and I thoughtthere was so much more
potential.
So I'm excited for you because,for whatever reason, they've
decided to focus on otherpriorities and I think there's a
massive untapped opportunity.

(19:21):
That clears it, clears thelandscape for you.

Speaker 3 (19:28):
Well, funnily enough, they've discovered it in Asia.
You know there was an articlein November's Focus Wire that $3
billion in in-person tours forTripcom and Alibaba was being
generated by live streamingtours.
Oh, my goodness, look it upNovember.
And I just kind of sat back andsaid and here we go.
You know, we were a COVIDcatalyst, as I mentioned, and
we've been seeing this potential.
And now we've been indiscussions with a number of

(19:50):
travel companies, which, ofcourse, is why I'm here back to
your original question.
At ATC and on our board, as amatter of fact, we have the
travel planner for Virginia Tech, we work with their group, we
work with the Museum of JewishHeritage, we work with a number
of cultural organizations Someare here, some are new, some are
starting with us in addition totraditional tour operators and

(20:11):
traditional travel sellers.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
The other thing I wanted to ask you too, susan,
since we're both here for thefirst time.
A number of things have stoodout to me that are already
highlights of being here.
Obviously, we've talked aboutsome of the business benefits
networking and having a chanceto present and bring the
awareness for Wowzitude toeveryone's attention but given
you are someone that's alwaysfocused on personal development
and learning, what else hasstood out to you so far about

(20:36):
ETC, either in the destinationor the people that you've met?
That are, I guess, some ofthose gems from your experience
so far?

Speaker 3 (20:43):
So this is a really unique confab and for my first
time here it's kind of likewhere have you been all my life?
Type of thing.
First of all, the people whoget up and speak.

Speaker 4 (20:53):
this is my 27th year and I'm like, oh my.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
God.
And there are long-termsponsors, certainly a lot of
destinations, particularly inCanada, manitoba and Winnipeg,
and all sorts of ones, veryincredible supporters of
lifelong learning.
And then, of course, there'sthe planners themselves and the
specialist tour operators.
They specialize in these groupswho knew?

(21:22):
Because I'm kind of like, oh, Ithought I knew every tour
operator.
I've been at almost every USTOAsince it started with Bob
Whitley.
So these are some otherspecialists here.
So I had an eye-opening time andwhat I really like is the
generosity of people.
They are generous, trulygenerous, in sharing their
knowledge, what they found.
There's a camaraderie here.
Camaraderie here it's bigenough to you know, make a

(21:47):
difference, and small enough toreally network and get to know
everybody and get to know theirstories.
You know there's somethinggreat about sitting with you
know the Yale travel planner andthen now you're talking to you
know the Stanford travel plannerand then you know maybe a
university or college you maynot be as familiar with, but
their alumni, they'reconstituents, they're study
abroad people.
These are curious people, thereare peeps, and we love to hear

(22:11):
the stories.
I also like that the conferencestarts off with something called
a learning lab, so I got here aday early to experience it.
It had a choice of threedifferent ways to get out into
the destination.
Oh my God, what a concept atravel conference where they're
actually teaching you what it'slike when your customers are

(22:33):
coming in.
So I had the privilege of goingto Africatown and learning
about the last slave shipIllegal that came here 52 years
after the abolishment of slavery.
Can you imagine?
And get to meet the descendantsof those?
So for me, this kind ofpersonal learning and knowledge

(22:55):
and understanding was so great.
And, of course, the civilrights movement and all these
things super interesting.
And again, you know this entiregroup.
The one thing I would say.
There's two words I would say.
Number one is connection.
Connections are huge, bothmeeting new people such as
myself and I know you're newhere as well, dan, it's your

(23:17):
first time- here even thoughwe're industry veterans and also
a sense of camaraderie.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
People really, really are generous and want to get to
know what, then, now meetingthe people, is that these 300
plus people are responsible forbillions of dollars of travel

(23:49):
spend and it is a very tightknit community and, from a
number of conversations I hadlast night, these are people
that have been involved for 15plus years.
A lady I was speaking to hasbeen 16 years and she was saying
the number of continuedoutreach she gets from people
because she's connected to thecommunity, that it's a friend of
a friend of a friend that knowsthat she's part of ETC and so

(24:11):
many people have built theircareers or their businesses on
the back of this really specialconference and community.

Speaker 3 (24:17):
And we've heard so much gratitude, since we're here
In every speech, where peopleare there, it's just this
incredible group of people.
They have the same challenges,they have the same concerns,
they have the same celebration.
You know, and they learn fromone another because it is a very
unique group of people and youknow, and of course, you know,

(24:42):
as the generations go by, thealumni changes.
The ages change what they wantto do.
Now they're looking forwellness, now they're looking
for longevity type of travel, aswe learned today.
Now they're looking for moreadventurous.
So even if they skew older,they want new experiences.
They're in great shape.
You know.
If they're 55 plus, it's notyour grandfather's 55 plus.

(25:06):
So the product itself is nowgetting a fresh look and
everyone's learning from oneanother what this market is
looking for.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah, no, it's exciting.
I'm thrilled that we're heretogether and thank you so much
for the opportunity to beinvited, to get to know Mara, to
do the keynote and obviouslyall these things that come about
from connection and communitywhich we have.
And then here we are togetheragain, which is wonderful.

Speaker 3 (25:28):
Well, dan, the connection with you has always
been great.
I'll just give a little shoutout for those of you who know I
always use Dan as my North Starwhen it comes to digital
marketing.
It's like what would Dan do?
So, as I worked at CIE Tours asChief Commercial Officer travel
impressions all the ones thatI've been to, I always looked to

(25:50):
Dan.
Dan was a frequent guest and afrequent panelist at the Eye for
Travel events, at my own event,travelcom, and a number of
different ones.
Really everything focused, Imean, you name it.
The guy has spoken ateverything and I used to track
you religiously to try to say,well, let's see, if he's doing
that, then he must knowsomething.
So you have always, always,been an early adopter.

(26:13):
I know you've got the keynotecoming up about AI and I follow
you with a more tactical type ofapproach, but you have always
seen the opportunities and nowis no exception.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
Thank you so much, susan.
I adore you as well, and Ithink you know the fact that
tomorrow we get to deliver theone-two punch myself on the
stage and then you doing theworkshop right afterwards on AI
will be a dynamic combination.
Hopefully we can continue to.
Let's keep that up.
That's our commitment to eachother.

Speaker 3 (26:40):
The Dan and Susan show.
I like it.
Exactly the Dan and Susan show.
I like it.

Speaker 2 (26:42):
Exactly.
You need to come back andco-host some episodes.
I think that would be great aswell, but no, thank you, susan.
I want to make sure all ourlisteners know how to connect
with you and find out moreinformation about Wowzitude.

Speaker 3 (26:51):
Great, so you can connect with me.
You know, old-fashioned Emailstill works S-Black, S-Black
for-U-D-E Wowzitude.
It's a combination of wow andgratitude, and if you ask me why
, I'll let you know at someother point, but it's sblack at
wowzitudecom.

(27:12):
Of course, our website iswowzitudecom and at any given
time on every social media alittle too much maybe, but
certainly our LinkedIn and allsorts of places.
So I would love to connect withyou in all ways.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
Definitely follow Susan on LinkedIn.
She's often posting becauseshe's traveling, she's speaking,
she has a lot of great updatesto share, so I definitely
encourage you to check her outthere and obviously reach out
for various businessopportunities.
But yeah, she's a terrificperson.
I'm proud to call you a friendand obviously you're a highly
esteemed and respected colleagueand it's great to be able to
have this time together again,susan.

(27:46):
So thank you so much forjoining us on Travel Friends.

Speaker 3 (27:48):
Thank you, dan, and, by the way, anybody who's
listening to your program orknows people, please come join
us complimentary for any tourthat you'd like to.
We do three or four, oh please.
We do three or four livestreams a week all over the
world.
We're happy to do it.
Whether it's a destination touroperator, hospitality, airline,
it doesn't matter.
We would love to have you asthe guest of Travel Trends as a

(28:13):
thank you to being on yourprogram, and we would love to
host you.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
That's a surprising development.
This was not pre-planned.
I just wanted to catch up withSusan while we were here.
But tell our listeners how theymight be able to realize
there's a promo code?
Or do they need to email you?
How does that happen?

Speaker 3 (28:28):
All you have to do is drop me an email.
Just mention Dan's name orTravel Trends, just that you
heard me on the program, andwe'll set you up for actually a
series of tours.
We really want to get the wordout and we want you to really
experience it for yourself.
It's all live.
That's incredible, Thank you.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
Susan.
That's wonderful, so definitelytake advantage of that
opportunity.
I know several people thatwould love that, so I'm going to
, I'm going to email a fewpeople already after we finish
this interview.
But, yeah, for everyonelistening to this, don't miss
that opportunity, because Ithink you'll see the technology,
you'll and you'll just for allof us, everyone listening to
this, I mean, this is, uh, youknow, the world's largest b2b
podcast now, and I think thatfor each of you to be able to

(29:09):
experience this for yourself, itwill remind us all why we do
what we do and why we love thisindustry and love travel.
So, uh, so, no, thank you again, susan.
That's a great opportunity andI look forward to, uh, seeing
you tomorrow and keeping intouch can't wait.

Speaker 3 (29:21):
Thank you so much dan .

Speaker 2 (29:25):
I now have the distinct pleasure of sitting
down with a big wig in thetravel industry and I said this
to him last night and a numberof people commented the same.
But Alan Elliot Marchand is acaptain of industry and he is
one of the most well-respectedand revered figures within the
travel industry and as we getinto his background and what
he's working on, everyone willunderstand why.

(29:46):
The cool thing for me is thatI've had a chance to know Alan.
For the last decade.
He actually his company, myriadMarketing, did a lot of work
with the Travel Corporation, soI got a chance to know him.
I spent a lot of time in LA,which is where he was based, and
so it's a real pleasure and aprivilege to finally have you on
the Travel Trends Podcast, alan.
So thanks for joining us.

Speaker 8 (30:06):
Thank you.
It's quite an honor finallyhave you on the Travel Trends
podcast, Alan.
So thanks for joining us.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Thank you, it's quite an honor and I should hire you
as my publicist.
I think you've got enoughpeople backing you and
supporting you, but I'mcertainly keen to be one of them
because I think, as ourlisteners will quickly
understand, the number of thingsthat you have on the go at the
moment.
I mean, you divide your timebetween Cape Town and LA.
You've got philanthropicinitiatives, nonprofits you're
involved in, and one of the whenwe saw each other last was in
Panama.
You were, you gave and I'm notsaying this because you're

(30:33):
sitting in front of me, I saidit last night in front of other
people, as you were there thebest presentation at the ATTA
conference by far, and Susansaid the same.
I was just like it was and itwas and I know you're speaking
here tomorrow, but let's giveeveryone a little bit of
background from your point ofview.
So why don't you start?
If you wouldn't mind, let's goway back for a minute, because I

(30:54):
know you've been coming to thisevent for like 20 years, but
tell everyone how you got intotourism in the first place, alan
.

Speaker 8 (31:00):
I thought we were going to start way back.
I was born at a very early age,so my background, ironically,
was first education, so I'm arecovery and academician.
I moved from my home inMissouri to California to teach
at Mount St Mary's University.
I was on the faculty there anda couple other schools for a

(31:22):
while and loved academia, but itjust didn't pay as much as I
wanted it to for business and soI started doing some consulting
on the side and slowly thatturned into a business and one
of the clients happened to bethe Outback of Australia.
I didn't know what a touristboard was, I didn't know where
the Outback was, but I ended updoing a brochure and then

(31:44):
becoming their ad agency.
So I slowly moonwalked out ofteaching and onto the business
and grew the business of Myriadwhere we worked with companies
like Travel Corporation,airlines, cruise lines and a lot
of international governments.
So over the years we workedwith about 35 international
governments either representingthem, pr, social advertising, et

(32:07):
cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
Well, it's interesting to make that
connection to the fact thatwe're here for ETC Educational
Travel Consortium and a lot ofthe groups here are academics or
connected to academia andthey're running alumni programs.
So this, for you, has to feellike coming home each time that
you come to this event.
But I want to get into Myriad alittle bit more detail, because

(32:28):
you sold this company to MMGY,which I think for most people in
the travel industry know thatthat is the largest marketing
firm.
They do marketing, they do PRand they're a global phenomenon.
They're owned by private equity, so it was obviously a great
opportunity for you, just priorto the pandemic, as I understand
too to have sold your company.
You clearly would have made itall back on the other side and

(32:49):
be sitting here as well with agreat story to tell, but
nevertheless, the timing wasexcellent.
But tell everyone what it iswhat you were doing at Myriad
for all those years.

Speaker 8 (32:56):
So a lot of stuff we were doing was traditional
advertising, creative PR, social, all that stuff.
The niche that we really carvedout was representing
international tourist boards inthe united states, so as diverse
from qatar to the australianoutback, to nicaragua to rwanda.

(33:17):
Instead of them having anoffice in the us, we became
their office, did all theirsales, marketing, social, pipe,
vr, etc.
So a little bit of everythingand we had a great time.
We had offices about 60, 70people between LA and New York
and had a great time and got torepresent some incredible
destinations around the world.
And, as you said, I knew thefolks from MMGY and was able to

(33:43):
do a deal with the privateequity company behind them.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah Now, it's a great story and obviously a
fantastic result for you.
But I guess the thing thatstood out to me in our
conversations and knowing you asI have, is that you never stop
so, like the idea that yourcompany was acquired, like
you've just been on to one thingafter another, and the one
thing I wanted to bring upspecifically is the Sigmund
project, which Sigmund, as Icame to understand from our

(34:08):
conversations, was your dad'sname Correct, and there's a
connection here between you andI, and it's obviously.
I started this podcast becausemy dad was diagnosed with cancer
and he sadly passed away.
That's why I left the travelcorporation.
When I did, I took care of himfor six months and I'm so glad
that I did and I'll never lookback and regret that decision,

(34:28):
and especially now thateverything has worked out as
well as it has with the podcastand there seems to be some
connection to me with my dadthat I was there for him and all
of a sudden now this is reallytaken off.
So most of our listeners knowthat story, but I really would
appreciate if you wouldn't mindsharing your story, if you don't
mind, because clearly there's astrong personal connection.
Your dad died at a much earlierage.
So tell us a little bit aboutyour dad and why you decided to

(34:51):
name this new venture andinitiative after him.

Speaker 8 (34:53):
So my dad died at 40 and I was eight years old and so
I look back and was luckyenough in business and things
like that to have somewhat of aquote unquote legacy at least in
my mind, and I think he waskind of robbed of having a
legacy quote unquote legacy, atleast in my mind, and I think he
was kind of robbed of having alegacy.
So I started thisnon-for-profit in hopes of

(35:16):
respecting him and trying tohave a legacy in his name.
It's turned out to be a goodname because it's memorable and
not really used that much.
So who knows, we might go intoconsumer goods one day, but it's
all good.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
Well, clearly you have that background in
marketing and then there's astrong personal connection and
your why is clear.
But tell us a bit about what'sthe Sigmund project and what did
you guys do?

Speaker 8 (35:35):
So it's one of many things that I'm doing now, still
associated with MMGY and someother some universe.
Actually, I'm on the board oftrustees of my graduate school
too, so I'm still hanging aroundacademia.
So one of the things duringCOVID I reflected and said it's
time for me to give back after Ihad sold my business.
How can I do it?

(35:55):
And in my career there was alot of times where people would
come up and say, hey, I've gotthis business idea.
What do you think I should do?
Maybe I need money, and themajority of times they needed a
collaborator.
So it wasn't funding, it wastrying to find partnerships and
things, and I always enjoyedthat and found it fulfilling.
So I thought I wonder ifthere's a way I could scale this

(36:17):
.
I can't do this all on my own,but what if we had an open
source platform that we couldcreate, that people with
business ideas could post thoseideas and get help from people
around the world?
And so we created the SIGMENTproject and the first thing we
did was the open source, wherenow people can do exactly that.

(36:37):
And the way the system works iswe've had, in about three years
, we've had over 100,000 uniquesfrom over 108 countries, so
it's truly global.
Less than 20% is North Americanbased.
And now there's over.
We have a database of 10,000members and over I think it's
260 ideas that are posted on thesite.

(36:57):
Some are crazy, some are crazysmart.
I've done, I think, 82 mentorcalls.
We have a 14 minute mentor callthat anybody posts To post.
You have to say what thebusiness is, how you're going to
make money from the business,but you also have to say that
you're dedicated to a triplebottom line of profit planet,

(37:18):
people.
You have to say which UNsustainability goals to which
your company will adhere, etcetera, et cetera.
So there are some safeguardsthere.
And now we're starting, in thelast couple of years, working
with universities ironicallyfull circle here again.
So we have universities fromthe Middle East, hong Kong.
We just started with theUniversity of Cape Town, where

(37:44):
students either create ideas andpost it on the site and we have
like a little I wouldn't callit a shark tank, it's more like
a koi pond and we evaluate theideas.
Or the other side of it, We'llhave graduate students or honor
students actually go and findsome of the businesses that are
posted are the ideas, reach outto the entrepreneurs and help
them either with research orcoding or something else that
they need.
So it's still.
I'm still at that corner ofacademia and travel.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yeah, and your new title Venture Catalyst.
Venture Catalyst.

Speaker 8 (38:10):
So between the Sigmund Project and some of my
other board positions orinvestments.
I think that kind of sums it upquite well.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yeah, no, I think that is your new brand identity
for sure.
Yes, tell us, if you wouldn'tmind, one or two projects that
stand out to you, that eitherhave flourished or come to life
by virtue of their associationwith the Sigma Project, or that
you think have great potential,because clearly, obviously, this
is transparent, people aresharing it.
So if you wouldn't mind sharingone or two examples, it would
be great.

Speaker 8 (38:38):
Wow, there's so many.
There's a few.
Some of the ones from thestudents are very good, the
students out of the Middle East.
It's a woman's Emiratiuniversity.
They've come up with privatetours in Dubai with a driverless
Tesla.
And so there's one person that'sreal, but they can control five
cars at the same time andeverything's preset, so it's

(39:02):
pretty easy to do.
There's one of the thingsthat's come out of what we call
the Sigmund verse.
There was somebody who postedan idea that she was actually
doing sustainable hotels underher criteria in India.
Coincidentally, a month later,somebody had the same idea in
Australia and within two months,somebody else had the idea, all
independent of each other.

(39:23):
We put those three womentogether and now they're working
together on those ideas.
So there's a lot of them thereand I'd suggest anybody go to
the sigmundprojectorg, take alook.
You can reach out directly tothese people and talk to them.
The other part of the SIGMUNDproject which we just introduced
a few months ago, which mightbe of interest to some of your

(39:44):
listeners, is we now we'reoffering an rfp service.
One of the things we realized isthat, um, a lot of people love
to get the rfps from ngos likethe world bank or asia
development bank or springfieldor mumbai whatever it happens to
be um, but it's very hard tofind them and it's very hard to

(40:06):
read through them and understandthem.
So we've been using AI toscrape the internet, find them
and then use another program ofAI to search the actual RFP and
find the five most valuablethings.
So for less than $100, $99,we'll make something special to
your listeners.
They can go on and get theseRFPs sent to their mailbox and

(40:33):
so well.
As a matter of fact, it's $129.
If they say, if they type inTravel Trends 99, they'll get it
for $99.
Amazing.
Here we go on the spot, andwhere we thought we'd send out
10 to 15 a month from June tothe end of the year, we sent out
500.
Incredible.
So it's a great service foreverybody.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
That's fantastic.
Thank you for extending thatoffer to all of our listeners.
I'm sure you'll have a numberof people take you up on that,
alan, I guess the other thing Ijust to ask you, given that
you've got such a wide range ofinterests and so you've got the
SIGMN project, which I knowobviously people are going to
check out You're still involvedwith MMGUI as well.
You mentioned about some ofyour academic work.

(41:14):
What are some of the otherthings that you're working on
that are worth our listenersbeing aware of?
And then I want to bring usback to ETC and what brings us
together for this event.

Speaker 8 (41:23):
Sure, so I mean a diverse portfolio, if you will.
As you mentioned, I'm MGUI,sigmund Webster University, my
alma mater.
I'm involved with the ATTA, theAdventure, travel and Trade
Association, as a specialadvisor to their board.
I'm partners in a magazine, adigital magazine out of
Australia called Get Lost.
Oh cool, yeah, foodmagazinecomand get some fun ideas.

(41:46):
A little side ball is somethingcalled Eat to Explore, which
are food preparation kits whereevery month you get a different
kit with sauces and spices andrecipes but information about
destination.
So one month you might get theFrench box, the next month you
might get the Ethiopian box, andso on and so forth.

Speaker 7 (42:04):
And that's.

Speaker 8 (42:04):
Eat.
Number two, explore from thatside, and then some other
foundations, everything from, asI mentioned, some universities
to something called Zip Zap,which is a social circus out of
Cape Town which trains over3,000 kids from the townships
every year and gives themconfidence through circus

(42:24):
training.

Speaker 2 (42:25):
Yeah, that's amazing.
Well, you certainly representthe ethos of people, planet,
profit.
I think it's clear when youwalk through a room, people
gravitate to you, people knowwho you are, but you also just
have this natural way about you.
This happened when we were atATTA, I'm just going to note to
your credit, I was actually withBrennan Bliss, who runs
Propellic, and he's been one ofour big sponsors of our podcast
since the very early days andhe's generated a lot of business

(42:52):
leads off of the podcast, whichhas been great, great for us,
great for him, great partnership.
But actually introduced you toBrennan and not only did you
engage him there, he was likeAdam and I'll fly and meet you.
And, like you, as I understand,he sent me a couple of messages
to be like.
Thank you so much forintroducing me to Alan.
He's amazing, he's just likeand so, despite all these things
you have going on, I justwanted to highlight that to our
listeners, that it was just like.
You are a genuinely good personthat cares, that means well and

(43:14):
that makes time for people, andthat's much rarer than I think.

Speaker 8 (43:18):
You're very kind, thank you.
I mean, I was just at a highschool reunion and somebody said
, oh, you've done well, and Isaid a lot of luck, and they
went.
No, I mean, you work hard andthere is the truth that you know
, luck favors the prepared.
But I will say this and I doknow, and we've all been lucky

(43:40):
enough to travel and I've beento the favela slums in South
America, I've been to the littlevillages in Asia, I've been to
the townships in Africa and I doknow a lot of people who are
much smarter than me, who workmuch harder than me.
But I got lucky, maybe growingup white speaking English in the
Midwest and getting areasonable education.
So I started it with a headstart and if we don't give back,

(44:03):
then I think we've missed thewhole plot and that's what we
need to do.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
That's a great spirit , alan, and I guess that's to
bring us then to where we areand finding ourselves here
together.
I mean you give back in anumber of ways.
You're here back at ETC again.
As you mentioned to me beforewe started recording, you've
been coming for 20 years.
You come every few years.
This year you're giving akeynote I'm following you
tomorrow afternoon which I justknow what a great speaker you
are.
Obviously I'm just thrilled toattend your session and I know
it will be amazing.
But tell everyone what bringsyou back.

(44:32):
Obviously, the speaking eventis one thing, but are there
meetings, opportunities outsideof that, obviously connecting
with the community that you'reso close to?
What else brings you to ETC?

Speaker 8 (44:42):
Well, I mean, I think it's a great format, it's a
great niche.
If you will, it certainly letsme talk to two worlds which I'm
very close to, both academia andtravel, and the spirit of the
people here is special.
They know that they are notonly getting people to travel,
but they're getting people tobecome more educated, continuing

(45:05):
their education and keepingtheir minds open, and hopefully
that has a strong impact oneverybody down the road.
And uh, and today we need thatopen mind more and more.
So, uh, the more of thesepeople can get other folks to
travel, uh and to places thatare maybe not traditional

(45:25):
tourist spots, the better offfor all of those people,
especially the people in thedestination who can benefit from
it.
So it's great to see that andto see the education continue.

Speaker 2 (45:36):
For sure, and this is , as you know, my first time at
ETC conference and I'm enjoyingit immensely so far, and there's
still so much more to cometomorrow.
But I guess, for you, havingthe vantage point of coming to
this event a number of times, isthere anything that stands out
to you so far this year that isdifferent, unique, special?
Is there anything that's kindof evolved with the format?
Just generally curious that.

(45:57):
And even if it is, Alan, it'sjust like it's exactly the way
it needs to be and it's perfect.
That's fine as well.
But yeah, I'm just keen to knowfrom your vantage point if
there's anything that stood outto you so far this year that's
been a particular highlight.

Speaker 8 (46:23):
So one of the things I think that's interesting and
it goes for travel, butspecifically for here the
openness of everyone to sharethe good and the bad, and the
ugly, with the theory of allboats rise.
So I think that's veryimportant, that you don't always
see in other industries thatpeople will say here's the
problems we had with this tour,here's the problems we had with
these faculty members and whatthe expectation was, and they're
all sharing and learning fromeach other.
So there's a lot of that andthat camaraderie, that community
spirit, is really helpful.

(46:44):
And I see that even more so astimes get tougher and there's
more pressure on universitiesthan ever before, uh, from
making money to re-imaginingthemselves.
Um, you know, I think a lot ofthem were had to go through this
process of were they aneducational institution or a
degree factory, and now that'schanging and so they have to

(47:04):
reevaluate and reevaluate theirrelationship with their alums.
There's a lot of competitionbecause everybody wants to have
everybody as part of theircommunity.
Sure, now you're trying to havea relationship where I might
not have stepped on the campusfor 30 years, but I still want
that relationship and I want youto feel like you're part of the
community and hopefully travelis a way to do it.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Yeah, no, it's great.
I mean, it's obviously it'sinteresting to get your take on
the trends within the alumnicommunity, but just given that
we have limited time togetherand there's so much I want to
talk to you about and obviously,clearly we'll have more
opportunities in the future andwe'll have you back for a
special one-off episode as well.
But what I was going to ask you,though, as we sit here together
in 2025, and we think aboutwhat's happening around the

(47:47):
world geopolitically, but alsojust some of the consumer trends
and consumer behavior so youmentioned something that's quite
interesting there about alumniand universities having to
reconsider their valueproposition, and I listened to
Scott Galloway, professor GE.
He's fantastic when he talksabout some of the universities
should be hedge funds.
They actually they printdegrees and they have so much
money in endowments theyshouldn't necessarily have the

(48:09):
tax-free status that they have.
So, anyway, that's a world thatobviously you're very familiar
with and some of the things youjust highlighted there.
But I'm keen to know what aresome of the big trends, whether
it be educational, travel oracademia, but what are some of
the big trends that you'repaying attention to in 2025?

Speaker 8 (48:24):
So I think I mean.
One of the things that I thinkis here is you know, the term
that's been coined a couple ofyears ago is edutainment right.
You need to be educated andentertained at the same time,
and one of the things that Ithink this audience really wants
to do is they want to come backdifferently.
They want to come back moreeducated.
I think one of the big trendsis wellness, and I think one of

(48:46):
the reasons is there's ameasurement when you travel that
you can see wait, did I losetwo pounds?
Did I feel a little better?
Did I get more steps?
There's a measurement tool.
You can say I got more educatedby this trip, but you can't
really measure it per se.
So I think people want to seethat.
They want to see that return oninvestment for their time more

(49:09):
than anything else and the money, and so I think they're looking
for that as one of the trends,and I think wellness will start
to creep into it.
Another quick one that you'llhear tomorrow is my theory that
we're all going towards a dimsum life.
Okay, tell us more.
Which is, in essence, we don'twant big plates anymore.

(49:30):
If you go into a restaurant,there's not big plates, it's
small plates.
We want dim sum.
But when you think about this,this extends beyond just a menu.
If you think about the way weconsume media you look at a
YouTube and it's 17 minutes andyou think, oh, that's forever,
but you'll consume 30 secondsfor another hour.
If you look at some of themicro learning, well, I don't

(49:57):
want to read a book, but if Ican get a synopsis in 15 minutes
I'm interested.
If you look at health andtraining now I have to go to a
class and every two minutesthere's another activity.
And if the instructor sayswe're going to do this for five
minutes, people roll their eyesbecause it's an eternity.
So I need a new exercise every30 seconds or 60 seconds at my
yoga class or whatever ithappens to be.
So that's how we're consumingalmost everything and we're

(50:19):
moving quickly.
I mean, if you look at blendedtravel, I'm jumping between work
and vacation and work andtravel, et cetera, et cetera, et
cetera, and so smart.
So that means the people whoare putting together trips have
to be conscious of that and youcan't do a three-hour thing or a
four-hour thing without littlebites in the middle of it, which
means possibly more activitieson travel, maybe a little more

(50:42):
resting time to digesteverything, but they're looking
for more and more activities andI think that's going to be a
challenge for travel companiesmoving forward.

Speaker 2 (50:51):
Yeah, for sure, and this is where you have so many
insights and you have so much tooffer, and we definitely need
more time to unpack it all.
But I'm just so glad we had theopportunity, at least initially
, to sit down here, not only seeeach other again, but finally
have a chance to record together, Alan.
It's certainly something I wantto continue on and I'm
obviously looking forward toyour session tomorrow and
keeping in touch with you.
So thank you for the friendshipand the camaraderie.

(51:13):
And, just as we wrap up thistime together, where can people
find out more information aboutyour projects Obviously the
Sigmund project we've mentionedbut also connect with you?
I'm not expecting people to beable to book 14 minutes with
Alan this was very special forme to have this chance today but
how can people connect with youor follow some of the other
initiatives?

Speaker 8 (51:31):
So, thank you.
As I mentioned, they can go forthe Sigmund Project.
It's thesigmundprojectorg.
If they want to contact me, mywebsite is mershencom.
It's M-E-R-S-C-H-E-Ncom.
I'm more than happy and I willhave a 14-minute call with
anybody who's interested,because I'll probably be as
interested in what they're doing.
So I'd love to connect witheverybody and, once again,

(51:52):
congrats on Travel Trends andeverything that you've been
doing.
It's a great success.

Speaker 2 (51:56):
Thanks so much, alan.
It really means a lot.
Thank you, thanks.
I'm actually joined now by afellow Canadian.
Martin Aldrich is the keyaccount manager at Adventure
Canada, heads up all thepartnerships and this is his
second ETC.
So welcome, martin.
Great to have you on TravelTrends here at ETC.

Speaker 4 (52:14):
Thanks Dan Great to be here.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
Tell us a little bit first about Adventure Canada and
what this organization is allabout.

Speaker 4 (52:20):
Yeah, so Adventure Canada is the only Canadian
owned and operated family-runexpedition cruise company, and
we do the east coast of Canadaand the Canadian Arctic and
Greenland, Iceland, Scotland andlots of other places.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
Fantastic.
I've noticed there's a fewother Canadians here.
I saw Manitoba's here.
There's been a few people,which is great, especially given
all the dynamics that arehappening around the world today
.
So it's great.
The Canadian contingent is hereto represent in Mobile, so it's
great to meet you.
Tell everyone a little bitabout your background, because
we were catching up just beforewe sat down to record and Martin
was telling me he actually grewup in Halifax, he lives in BC,

(52:53):
adventure Canada is based inMississauga, so he's got the
full country cover.
But yeah, tell us a little bitof how you got into tourism and
specifically this role atAdventure Canada.

Speaker 4 (53:01):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I joined Adventure to AdventureCanada 10 years ago.
I actually came on board theship as a yoga instructor, so I
was in a completely differentindustry, but I was traveling a
ton and I love travel and I wastrying to figure out a way to
essentially bridge the gapbetween what I was doing and
traveling and found a home atAdventure Canada.

(53:22):
I've been here, as I said, for10 years, started out with
driving Zodiacs and doing yoga,and then came into sales, worked
up into business developmentand now I work with pretty much
all of our groups on board.
I still travel on a trip or twoin the summer, but yeah, got to
go to a bunch of differentconferences throughout the year
and meet fabulous people,networking, talking about travel

(53:44):
and how travel can changepeople's lives.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
That's really cool.
I mean, it's great when youactually come up in the industry
and you understand it frombeing part of creating that
experience for guests and thenobviously now being an
opportunity to encourage morepartners to experience a company
and a brand like AdventureCanada.
So ETC, you're obviously herefor your second time, so clearly
there was enough reason to comeback.
But tell us how you ended upgetting involved with ETC.

(54:07):
What is the connection betweenAdventure Canada, I guess?
What are some of the benefitsyou see about coming to this
event?

Speaker 4 (54:12):
Absolutely.
I mean, the connections thatyou make at ETC are great.
The people here are fantastic,knowledgeable, interesting, and
I think that's why I'm comingback.
We're recognizing thatobviously the world is changing,
but people still want to traveland people still want to learn

(54:32):
when they're traveling and theywant an immersive experience.
So that's what we offer and Ithink that really is something
that alumni groups you know outof universities and across the
world really are looking for isgoing to a place, learning as
much as possible about the placeand getting to experience as
much as possible.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
Now, had you already been working with ETC before
attending last year, or was thatsort of the first time you guys
started to collaborate withthis organization and all the
alumni?

Speaker 4 (54:59):
Yeah, prior to the pandemic Adventure, canada was
part of ETC.
It wasn't part of my realm atthat time, so really it's a
post-pandemic revitalization.

Speaker 2 (55:09):
Got it.
That's exactly how this podcaststarted was what traveler
behavior looked likepost-pandemic.
So I think our listeners willcertainly understand that and I
guess that's where, as we sithere in 2025, given some of the
challenging dynamics that areoccurring, obviously these types
of partnerships are moreimportant than ever because
alumni programs have essentiallya captive audience of you know.
Oftentimes you know high networth people that are

(55:31):
well-educated and they have adesire for foreign travel.
As you know, working in thetravel industry, those are like
the criteria we're looking for.
To market to someone is like dothey have an interest in
foreign travel, do they havetime off and do they have the
money to be able to do it?
Those kind of like the threeessential criteria, and alumni
programs have all of those inspades, I guess, right.
So tell us about some of thepartnerships that you've been

(55:54):
able to realize what last yearare coming into this year and
how meaningful I guess they'vebeen to Adventure Canada.

Speaker 4 (56:00):
Yeah for sure.
Well, we've worked with a lotof different alumni groups from
the UK, from the States and fromCanada as well.
You know, I think it's a reallyinteresting group of people
that come on board when theycome together.
There's a similar ethos in thegroup and they want to learn.
And so I think that, you know,coming to ETC especially getting

(56:24):
to network with differentgroups that are either working
with alumni or are part of atravel program planet program
you know, you just, it broadensthe horizon of what we can offer
and what we can do, and beingable to customize for groups is
really important for us.
So we've seen a lot ofdifferent interests, interest
groups.
So, whether it's, you know, oranthology, or and I'm seeing
your Galapagos feet here theblue footed booby fit blue foot.

Speaker 2 (56:52):
Hear the um blue-footed booby fit uh,
blue-footed excuse me,blue-footed boobies.
Yes, we can say that three times, twice exactly.
Blue-footed boobies fromgalapagos.
Yeah, as martin called out,because I actually have, he's.
Uh, we're sitting across fromeach other.
Of course, this is all audioand my laptop has one of our
most special trips ever lastcouple, two years ago, we went
to the galapagos and it wastruly extraordinary experience
for our family.
But, but, anyway, yeah, so, butsorry, back to you.
The other thing I wanted to askyou too, martin, just in as

(57:12):
you're talking about workingwith these different alumni
groups, is the types ofexperiences that you offer,
since I'm not familiar aboutAdventure Canada and certainly
we'll get more up to speed, sotell everyone the website I
guess that's one thing for sureso that people can follow along
at home.
But specifically, if youwouldn't mind outlining some of
the types of experiences thatyou offer that could be of
interest to our listeners yeahfor sure.

Speaker 4 (57:33):
Um, so adventurecanadacom
a-d-v-e-n-t-u-r-e adventure um,that's the best place to check
out all of the different tripsthat we offer.
Um, but yeah, we're a smallship expedition cruise company,
so we are on a 79 passenger anda 144 passenger ship, so there's
two different ships.
They all run a series of tripsthroughout.

(57:54):
Well, starting in 2026, we'llbe starting in Northern Europe,
working from Scotland up to theFaroe Islands and Iceland over
to Greenland.
The big ticket item that weoffer is the Canadian Arctic and
the Northwest Passage.
So we've been doing that since2009.
40 years in the business, oralmost 40 years in the business,

(58:15):
starting with overland trips onBaffin Island, and the main
focus of the company is to getpeople to remote places, to take
an incredible team of expertswith the passengers and really
just have an immersiveexperience.
So getting to be on the land, inremote communities and
potentially in the CanadianArctic or wherever we might be
traveling, to get off onto theland, go for hikes, see
beautiful vistas, but also, youknow, wildlife is a big focus

(58:37):
for us as well, but the team ofspecialists really take it away
and they're the ones who reallybring it home and they're going
to be there on the Zodiacs or onthe ship, doing different
presentations, workshops,talking about all the different
things that we're seeing.
They're going to be there onthe zodiacs or on the ship doing
different presentations,workshops, talking about all the
different things that we'reseeing, whether it's archaeology
, the ornithology, the marinebiology, the history, the
culture.
It's all really important andwe want to make sure that

(58:57):
everybody, everybody's needs ofwhat they want to learn about is
taken care of that'sinteresting.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
I mean again not being familiar with the company.
That's why I wanted to get abit more detail about the two
ships and then also thedestinations you cover, Because
I figured for sure by virtue ofthe branding that it was Canada,
but I also didn't realize thatyou also extend to Europe and
obviously ships can go anywhere.
How much of the business isCanadian specific?

(59:22):
And what I mean by that is notCanadian travelers but Canadian
travel experiences versusinternational?

Speaker 4 (59:30):
For sure.
Well, the company started goingto Scotland in 1995, so almost
30 years now in Scotland, andthat's because the heritage of
the family that runs the companyis Scottish.
But we started on Baffin Islandin the late 80s doing overland
trips and then Newfoundlandcircumnavigation is one of the
biggest trips that we offer.
So I may not be touching on allthe different destinations in
Canada that we go to, but yeah,newfoundland, nova Scotia, where

(59:54):
I was born, we visit as well,cape Breton, pei, we go to the
coast of Labrador, baffin Islandincredible, beautiful spot.
And then almost all of thetrips that we offer go to
Greenland as well, except exceptfor the East Coast trips.
But Greenland has really been abig destination for us.
It's really popular at themoment.

(01:00:14):
I'm not sure why.
I hear they have rare earthminerals.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
Is that the case?

Speaker 7 (01:00:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
I guess people really want to see those off close for
themselves.
That's great.
We can joke about that asCanadians and just with what's
going on in the world, butnevertheless.
But you actually mentionedBaffin Island.
I don't think that that's Imean being a Canadian.
You always hear about BaffinIsland.
I mean it's someplace that'smore known to us.
But tell everyone if youwouldn't be a bit about that
destination specifically,because this is where I think,

(01:00:45):
as I was just in Europe, I wasat the ITB conference in Berlin
and the number of people thatwhen I mentioned I was Canadian,
instantly they were sympatheticto some of the things they were
seeing in the news, which Iappreciated.
But at the same time there wasalmost like a rallying cry of
people more interested in Canada, which I guess, like if there
is any silver lining, therecould be a potential for more

(01:01:08):
international tourism to Canadaby virtue of raising the
awareness about what a specialplace in the world it is.
So tell us a little bit moreabout Baffin Island and, if you
wouldn't mind, feel free tohighlight any of the other
really special places aboutCanada that you guys offer that
are truly unique.

Speaker 4 (01:01:21):
Yeah, absolutely Well .
Baffin Island, I think it's thelargest island in the Canadian
Arctic, so it's not the size ofGreenland but it's very large.
The East Coast has massivefjord systems and lots of high
peaks.
There are communities allthroughout.
The southern communities are alittle more renowned for their

(01:01:42):
Inuit art and then thecommunities in the north are
typically larger, so Pond Inletis one of them.
Arctic Bay would be another.
There is a decent amount ofmining that I know of that goes
on in the northern part ofBaffin Island.
But for us as a travel company,we're going there to visit
communities looking for wildlife.
So one of my favorite placesthat we've been to is one of the
fjords in the northern part,near Pond Inlet, and it's full

(01:02:07):
of these incredible mountainsand they go right from the water
straight up and out.
You know, sometimes 5,000 feetup, and there's narwhal, beluga,
whales, arctic char, lots ofdifferent seal species and
you're there essentially on yourown with just the ship and the

(01:02:27):
other passengers.
But there's very littleinfrastructure, you have no cell
service, so you're able toreally just disconnect, and I
think that's probably one of themain things that I like about
our trips is getting off tothese really remote places and
completely disconnecting.
But yeah, a little further southis the coast of Labrador and

(01:02:48):
they kind of continue in asimilar diagonal line and the
Torngat Mountains of Labradorare really, really not known
about enough.
I don't think they're a verysimilar kind of landscape as
Baffin Island or the east coastof Baffin Island High peaks in
these fjords.
No people, or very few people,live in the Torngat Mountains.
Sorry, no people live in theTorngat Mountains.
Sorry, no people live in theTorngat Mountains and very few

(01:03:08):
people live on Baffin Island.
But the Torngat Mountains arespectacular.
There's beautiful fjords.
Yeah, very similar wildlife,except for we have black bears
as well as polar bears in thisarea.
So that's, of course, somethingI've not talked about, but
Baffin Island has lots of polarbears.
Two-thirds of the world's polarbears in fact live in the
Arctic and Canada.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
That's really cool.
Now, I know we've mentioned thewebsite, but I want to make
sure that people can connectwith you or learn more about
Adventure Canada.
So leave us, if you wouldn'tmind, martin, with some ways to
connect with you.
Learn more about the businessorganizations here that might be
considering coming to ETC nextyear by virtue of listening to

(01:03:50):
this podcast, and someone, Iguess, like myself, that didn't
have a full understanding of ETC, and here's someone that's had
two years of experience andpresumably planning to come next
year.
So how can they contact you?
And, yeah, what are yourthoughts on recommendations for
others to join us next year?

Speaker 4 (01:04:04):
Yeah, for sure, I'm on LinkedIn, so, martin Aldrich
is a good way to find me.
You can email me partnerP-A-R-T-N-E-R at
adventurecanadacom or go to thewebsite adventurecanadacom.
I think the depth of knowledgeof the people who attend here is
really amazing, and you can goto conferences and meet a lot of
people and not really make atrue connection.

(01:04:26):
But I feel like the connectionshere that I'm making are deep,
or deeper than justsurface-level interaction, and
there's a real want and desireto find reputable companies that
are doing good things, thatthey can know and trust and
bring their travelers on theirtrips with.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
That's awesome.
Well, it's a real pleasure tomeet you here, martin.
I'm glad that we had thischance to sit down, and I
certainly wish you and the teamevery success in the year ahead
and look forward to crossingpaths in Canada at some point.

Speaker 4 (01:04:57):
Sounds good, Dan Thanks a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
I now have the pleasure to speak to another
fellow Canadian.
This is so awesome for mebecause I didn't expect there to
be so many incredible Canadiansdown here.
There's a lot of people fromaround the world here at the ETC
Conference, obviously a lot offantastic Americans.
But I have the privilege now ofintroducing you to Sarah
Robinson, who is the BusinessDevelopment Manager at Tourism
Winnipeg, and I just discoveredthat Sarah highlighted to me

(01:05:22):
that the ETC Conference was inWinnipeg last year.
That's correct.
How cool is that?
So welcome, sarah.
Great to have you on TravelTrends.
Thank you, it's great to behere.
So tell us a little bit aboutyour background in tourism and
how you got into this industry,if you wouldn't mind starting
off there.

Speaker 10 (01:05:36):
Sure, yeah, I mean it's funny because I never would
have imagined working intourism and I think when you
come from a city like, so youknow, win 850 000 people were a
fairly small city but thecapital of the province of
manitoba, and I grew up thinking, you know, I mean tourism
wasn't a huge thing in winnipegat the time when I was growing

(01:05:57):
up and so I wouldn't haveimagined getting into it.
But, um, I ended up moving tomadrid for about 10 years oh wow
, good for you yeah, and it was.
It's an incredible experience.
If you've ever been there, it'sfabulous, I speak.
Spanish Nice, not just keep itqua.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
French.

Speaker 10 (01:06:14):
Yeah, yeah, my Spanish is way better than my
French, so let's not go there.
But yeah, and so I moved thereand you know, partially from
someone that I met, and so weended up starting a tourism
business essentially which isreally interesting that ended up

(01:06:38):
being linked, directly linkedto the official tourism office
of Madrid.
And so we were an independentbusiness that we created on our
own, but we had those ties tothe official tourism office
because they thought it was agreat project, so they kind of
gave us their institutionalsupport.
So that was my firstintroduction to tourism.
So it was more based onstudents, so essentially
international students orerasmus students that would come

(01:06:59):
to madrid and so we would bekind of their, their overall
hosts in the city of Madrid,planning cultural activities,
you know, cooking workshops,flamenco workshops, and then
traveling, traveling all acrossEurope and all across Spain.
So that's how I got into it.
And so when, you know, ended upmoving back to Winnipeg, there

(01:07:22):
was this opening at TourismWinnipeg and I said, well, I've
kind of done that before, and soI applied and got the job.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
That's fantastic.
That's great.
You've got that entrepreneurialexperience.
And then now obviously beingpart of a government
organization, because I'm surethere's a lot you bring to your
role, that is, that pioneering,entrepreneurial spirit to make
things happen and get thingsdone, and so it's always
interesting to have bothperspectives.
But tell us a little bit aboutTourism Winnipeg, about the
organization and what it is youguys do.
Obviously you promote Winnipegas a destination.

(01:07:51):
Obviously that's a big part ofit.
But yeah, tell us a little bitmore about Tourism Winnipeg.

Speaker 10 (01:07:55):
Yeah, of course.
So obviously, yeah, we're thedestination marketing
organization of Winnipeg.
We're actually really unique inthe sense that we're a branch
of Economic Development Winnipeg.
So we, like you know, ourbranch specifically is focused
on generating visitors right andbuilding the visitor economy to

(01:08:17):
Winnipeg.
So that's done in various ways.
So my target market isessentially travel trade, right.
So those are the tour operators, the travel agents.
I'm trying to get them topackage travel to Winnipeg.
But we also focus on othermarkets like meetings and
conventions.
So bringing a convention to thecity, such as bringing ETC to
Winnipeg, it's not my marketspecifically, but we do that as

(01:08:39):
well.
Example the Junos.
We just hosted recently theWorld Police and Fire Games a
couple of years ago in Winnipeg.
So things like that we focus.
So it's essentially kind ofimproving or, you know, bringing
money to the visitor economy.
That's our goal overall.
So we're a small branch ofeconomic development in Winnipeg

(01:09:01):
.

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
Got it, and you have some colleagues here as well as
Manitobans here.
Yes, travel Manitoba, yeah,travel Manitoba is here.
Uh, tell us a little bit how.
You and and one other colleagueI should actually highlight too
, is john gunter, from frontiersnorth, and so you have tour
operators, you've got provincialand then, obviously, city focus
.
How do you guys work together?
And because one of the thingsthat came up this morning, um,
is it one of your colleagueshighlighted, uh, all the

(01:09:23):
representatives here frommanitoba and winnipeg, and John
as well, because clearly that isthe whole ecosystem of travel.
And so, yeah, how do you guyswork together and complement
each other?

Speaker 10 (01:09:33):
Yeah.
So that's really important andI think also we have been told
before and I don't know if it'sa Canadian thing that we work
really really close together andreally it's a collaboration.
So we even go on sales missionstogether where we each have our
individual you know, quoteunquote product to sell, tourism

(01:09:53):
product to sell, whether it's ahotel or an attraction.
But when we all go on a salesmission together our one goal is
to sell Winnipeg or to sellManitoba, and we work together
as a joint team to do that.
And then secondary is promotingor selling your individual
property or attraction.
So that's really reallyimportant.
So, obviously, travel Manitoba.
They are a governmentorganization.

(01:10:14):
I work closely with thembecause they promote the entire
province.
You know, special focus onChurchill, manitoba.
That's one of the main draws tocome to Manitoba.
And then I'm just more focusedspecifically on the city, the
capital city of Winnipeg.
And then we have all of ourwonderful suppliers that have
tourism products to sell.

(01:10:34):
So whether that is a JohnGunter from Frontiers North that
is selling his Churchillexperience, or it's a hotel,
like you know, the Delta Hotelin Winnipeg, or it's the
Canadian Museum for Human Rights, which is one of our star
attractions in Winnipeg, or it'sthe Canadian Museum for Human
Rights, which is one of our starattractions in Winnipeg, so
working all together to makesure that we're selling all of
the same unified message to theworld about Winnipeg and

(01:10:58):
Manitoba.

Speaker 2 (01:10:59):
Very cool.
And then ETC.
So the fact you hosted lastyear and obviously this is your
fourth ETC, right?
So what brings you to ETC?
I mean, obviously some of thosecan be obvious to myself or our
listener, but I'm very keen toget your take on why ETC is such
an important conference forTourism Winnipeg to be a part of
.

Speaker 10 (01:11:18):
Mm-hmm for sure, and so probably the most obvious
answer is that I'm here to talkto tour operators and I'm here
to talk to travel planners, butin addition to that, I'm here to
assess, you know, the currenttravel trends.
I need to know what's going on,what the demands are out there
for package travel, what youknow the sentiments are for

(01:11:39):
travel.
So, just in general, I need toget a gauge on what is happening
at the moment.
So that's really important.
And then I mean, in addition tothat, it's the education as
well.
Etc is a really uniqueconference in the sense that I
attend a lot of conferences andconventions and I love the fact

(01:12:02):
that ETC really focuses oneducation, and so that's one of
the reasons that I continue tocome back, because the quality
of education at this conferenceis exceptional.

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
That's awesome.
The one thing I'd certainlylike to ask you, then, sarah, is
whether someone listening tothis is considering attending
for the first time, like youwere four years ago.
What would be your advice tothem if they're considering
about coming to the event orbecoming part of the ETC
community?

Speaker 10 (01:12:30):
Yeah, I mean I would highly recommend it Again.
This is my fourth year here andit's very, very different.
So and I think who's listeningto this podcast?
Very likely they have attendedother conferences and you know I
attend a lot of greatconferences, but some of them
are extremely large.
This is a smaller, intimateconference and so you really get

(01:12:53):
to connect with people.
I mean, at some of these largeconferences, you're lucky if you
speak to you know, five or sixpeople.
You're in a big space.
It's all about the one-on-onespeed dating appointments that
are seven minutes long, which isreally difficult to do.
Here at ETC we have thoseappointments.
They're, you know, 15 minuteslong, but it's not really the

(01:13:16):
focus is not about that Like,it's really about networking,
it's about learning, it's aboutmeeting people that have
commonalities and commoninterests and you know, one
thing I really like to focus onis, you know, I want to mention
the word like a high valuetraveler.
So this is something that atTourism Winnipeg and it even

(01:13:38):
extends beyond to DestinationCanada.
So we're obviously somewhatlinked to Destination Canada as
being the overall marketingagency for all of Canada and
their whole strategy in tourismis focusing on the high value
traveler and essentially that issomeone that stays longer in
the destination, spends money inthe destination, cares about

(01:14:00):
the destination, wants to learnabout the local communities.
In that case, for candidates,the local Indigenous communities
and attendees that are at ETC,that's exactly what they're
looking for, right?
So tour operators are lookingto build packages that include

(01:14:20):
the experiences that are veryauthentic or true to the
destination, because that's whattheir guests are looking for.
The affinity travel marketright, the alumni travel market
is essentially looking for thoseexperiences and that's exactly
what, as a destination, thatwe're looking for.

(01:14:41):
So, by attending ETC, youessentially have this arm's
length in order to anopportunity to reach these high
value travelers.

Speaker 2 (01:14:52):
That's super interesting and that's really
valuable advice, and what youjust shared with me actually I
found quite profound becauseit's still early for me to
understand the value and reallyappreciate what's happening
around me, and so those insightswere really meaningful.
Obviously, I'm keen to makesure that our listeners can

(01:15:15):
connect with you because clearlyafter that especially people
coming up in the industry it'sone of the things I was actually
going to mention to you, sarah,just in context to these
conversations is that a coupleof our interviewees have talked
about the fact that it's anolder group here, like 50 plus,
and you represent smart, young,talented, like up and coming,
and there's a few people herethat are 20s, 30s and or below

(01:15:41):
50.
And so clearly you'vehighlighted many reasons for the
next generation, if you will,to come to ETC and to benefit
from this community.
So I do want to make sure thatpeople can follow up with you
and they can also learn moreabout Tourism Winnipeg.
So if you wouldn't mind sharinghow best to be able to do that,
that would be great.

Speaker 10 (01:15:58):
For sure.
I think email is best.
It's fairly simple.
It's Sarah.
I guess you have to know how tospell Winnipeg, but Sarah
S-A-R-A-H at tourismwinnipegcom,so that's W-I-N-N-I-P-E-Gcom.

Speaker 2 (01:16:13):
Exactly, it's the two Ns.
Yes, two Ns Very very, veryimportant.
I've so enjoyed ourconversation.
I'm glad we've met and, sarah,I met just before we started
recording.
I was like I noticed you in thesession yesterday and I was
thrilled that you were coming into record today.
So, yeah, it's a real pleasureto meet you.
I look forward to keeping intouch and seeing you at the

(01:16:35):
conference in the next coupledays.

Speaker 10 (01:16:36):
You as well.
Thanks, it's been a pleasure totalk to you and thank you for
the opportunity.

Speaker 2 (01:16:44):
I now have the privilege to sit down and
connect with an old friend,someone that actually I was
looking forward to seeing at theevent when I knew he was going
to be here.
His name is Ian Kynor and heused to work at the Travel
Corporation with me and we werepart of the same team at Contiki
many years ago.
But he's gone on to continuedsuccess, as I would have
absolutely expected from him,because he was an outstanding

(01:17:06):
team member then, and clearlyhe's risen to prominence in this
industry.
And he's coming to this eventfor how many years now?
Seven years.

Speaker 11 (01:17:13):
This is, yeah, seventh year.

Speaker 2 (01:17:15):
Yeah, that's amazing, Ian.
So Ian's role he's the Directorof Affinity and Charter Sales
at National Geographic LindbladExpeditions.
So awesome, Ian, so great tosee you again.
How are you?
What's going on?
Tell us about this new role.

Speaker 11 (01:17:28):
Oh, it's fantastic.
Well, first, it's great to seeyou, Dan.
Thank you so much.
I saw your name on the list andit was immediately elated that
you were going to be here andcongratulations on the podcast.
It's fantastic so it's great tosee you.
So the role is it's fantastic.
The involvement with ETC isincredible.
But yeah, national GeographicLindblad Expeditions expedition

(01:17:48):
cruising points all over theworld.
Lindblad Expeditions previouslystarted in the 60s One of the
first companies to do privatelandings to the Galapagos and to
Antarctica and we've beenleading that charge ever since
Antarctica and we've beenleading that charge ever since,

(01:18:09):
really focused on responsibleexploration and responsible
expeditioning and it's just agreat role and I'm thrilled to
be a part of that team.

Speaker 2 (01:18:16):
Now they're very lucky to have you and it's a
perfect role for you, becauseone of the things that Ian and I
collaborated on when I wasoverseeing Contiki USA he was
responsible for all of theuniversities and alumni
organizations, so he was alreadyvery active in this space.
And it's so fascinating for meto sit here across from him
because we used to sit in myoffice in Cyprus and Orange

(01:18:36):
County and that's where he lives, although he's lived in a few
places across the US.
But I got a chance to know himand his wife and his kids, and
so we'd go to picnics togetherand we still connected on social
media.
So I still feel quite connectedto Ian, but I still go back.
I mean, my memory from our timetogether previously is sitting
together in a room going overthe numbers, looking at the
results of various initiativesyou had underway, and that's

(01:18:57):
where my admiration for you isvery sincere.
Not only are you a greatindustry executive, you're
incredibly well-connected, andthat's when I saw not only are
you here at this event, this isanother thing.
I also want to highlight, ian aswell.
You're actually part of theadvisory, the Executive Advisory
Council for ETC, and I was justlike man, oh man, I'm like this
is like Ian, congratulations,thank you.

(01:19:19):
First of all, it's just likeI'm just.
I'm so for you.
Tell us a little bit about theETC connection.
I'll come back to NationalGeographic Lindblad Expeditions
as well, because I am keen toknow a little bit more about
that.
But I'm really keen to knowabout your connection to ETC,
how this all came about and whatbrings you to ETC.

Speaker 11 (01:19:37):
Sure.
So there's an interesting thingabout ETC that, as large of a
conference as it is, relative tothe travel space it sits the
best way I can describe it itkind of sits apart from a lot of
normal tour operating, a lot ofthe operators that are here
work almost exclusively with theeducational travel community,

(01:19:59):
which are alumni associations,not-for-profit organizations,
zoos, art museums, et cetera,and it's a very, very close-knit
community with operators reallyfocused on the mission of the
institutions, these alumniassociations that are building
engagement, that are bringingvalue to being an alumni of

(01:20:20):
their organization or theirinstitution and ETC.
I came to ETC like I said, thisis six, seven years ago and it
was really a discovery for me.
It was at the time TTC had notreally participated in ETC, it
was new.
We were new into theorganization and one of the very
first things I discovered wasthis operates very different

(01:20:43):
from any other trade showconference, any place that I've
been before.
Yeah, uh, and it took it tookjust a minute to get used to
what I was going to beexperiencing, but as soon as I
came around to it you know, thisis really the word that's used
a lot is community andeverybody's really focused on
the same thing of exploration,but exploration in a

(01:21:04):
transformative way, and the wordword transformative travel and
transformation travel it getsthrown around quite a bit, but
here it's taken really, reallyseriously that every destination
, every place is going to impactnot only the person who's
visiting, but the place that'sbeing visited.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
Right, yeah, it's so interesting.
I guess that's where I meangoing back to that time and
collaborating together.
Etc was not on my radar, and soit clearly has not only become
an important part of your role,but also the fact that you are,
you know, not only in the rolethat you've now taken on, but
you're an elevated positionwithin the ETC community, and we
were chatting last night andclearly everyone knows you.

(01:21:42):
You know everybody here, andthat's why I was just like Ian,
this is so awesome.
Like you have found your place,you found your people.
Mara, who is the CEO andfounder, of course, of ETC, she
was keen for us to connect andboth of us were like we know
each other really well, but shehighlighted to me that you had
just got back from Antarctica.
I did so.
Tell us a little bit more aboutthat trip things.
Literally, I wanted to ask youas a friend and a colleague.

(01:22:03):
I've not been yet and clearlyit's one of the most epic places
you could travel on this planetand that's a specialty, I'm
assuming.
Yes, national GeographicLindblad Expedition.

Speaker 11 (01:22:13):
So yeah, tell us a little bit more about that
journey experience you've beenon and, I guess, what makes that
so special as part of thecollection, we could do an
entire podcast just on part ofthat topic, so to geek out for
just a second, I think for methere were a lot of things that
stood out.
The destination is absolutelyincredible, the wildlife, what

(01:22:38):
we were able to see.
I think at one point in time Ijoked that I can't take any more
pictures of icebergs and thenfive minutes later I'm out on
the deck taking a picture of aniceberg.
But the destination isabsolutely incredible.
The adventure of crossing theDrake Passage, doing something
and feeling like an explorer ofold and we were making comments

(01:22:59):
that more people have been toAntarctica than have crossed the
Drake Passage, because you canfly into Antarctica and we do
that as well.
But the adventure of crossingthe Drake and then arriving in
Antarctica, being at the bottomof the earth, seeing wildlife
from penguins to whales, tobirds I am I will admit I am not

(01:23:23):
a birder- I do not know my birdspecies particularly well, but
crossing the Drake Passage, wehad our birding expert sharing
some of the species we weregoing to see and what to
recognize.
I have never been moreinterested and fascinated in
finding and seeing whether it bethe Arctic terns or the
albatross or whatever it may be.

(01:23:45):
It was absolutely thrillingjust to be able to look at all
those things.
Uh, and beyond that, the shipitself.
Uh, I I will say I'm a littlebit of an engineering nerd and
the marvel of the ship, and andthe way the, the, the ship keeps
us stable and uh, and itoperates, and cutting edge

(01:24:05):
technology that's involved tomake the, uh, the voyage as
comfortable as possible.
Uh, and and navigate thesepolar regions safely and into
places that a lot of people justcan't go.
Uh, it was.
It was incredible from start tofinish.
I highly recommend you go.
You take the family, but, yeah,every day was something new.

(01:24:28):
Getting out on Zodiacs, I thinkone of my favorite experiences.
I'll share this because it wasabsolutely amazing At one point
in time.
We're stopped and the ships aredesigned they don't drop anchor
, they use their propulsion andjust kind of stay put, gps, they
sit there, so there's nodamaging to the seafloor.

(01:24:48):
Uh, no kind of twisting aroundto the wind.
Uh, so we're one of our, one ofour stops.
We're stopped to get out on theZodiacs.
We take the Zodiac out, uh, andit was.
It was a moment to reflect andjust be present in the place.
We were, and one of ournaturalists, one of the
expedition team, had broughtwatercolors and we all had a

(01:25:11):
little piece of paper and aclipboard and we were just
encouraged to sit there, take itall in and do watercoloring.
I haven't done watercolorssince I was probably four or
five years old and my watercolorpainting looks it.

Speaker 2 (01:25:24):
It is terrible.
It all came flooding back toyou.

Speaker 11 (01:25:26):
You put the most incredible landscape together oh
no, it is awful but it is.
It is probably one of my mosttreasured possessions from that,
from that experience, uh, justbecause of the moment that it
was and just having that, uh,that time to just take in the
grandeur and the beauty of theplace oh, that's really cool.

Speaker 2 (01:25:43):
I'm so glad you had that experience.
Was it just you and your wife,though, on this one, or was it
just were you solo?
I was solo, oh man, the family,I'm sure.

Speaker 11 (01:25:50):
Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:52):
Because we, obviously , our kids, know each other and
our wives have met, of course,and we're in a similar stage of
life in terms of and I was justthinking about, that type of
trip to me stands out as areason for them to want to
travel with us like that.
They would do this, but clearlyyou're going to have to go back
and you're going to take them.

Speaker 11 (01:26:11):
I absolutely have to take all of them and hopefully
this summer.
You know my wife's a highschool English teacher, my two
boys in school, so stealing themaway all away from school in
mid-February wasn't going tohappen.

Speaker 2 (01:26:29):
But this summer we're going to get out and we're all
going to travel together andshare the experience.
For sure that's awesome.
Well, I got a couple otherquestions for you, ian.
One of them I wanted to askjust about what's ahead for you
in your role and specificallywith everything that's happening
with National GeographicLindblad Expeditions.
It's such an exciting businessto be a part of.
Obviously, this whole sector isgrowing considerably.
Despite various headwinds thatmay impact travel over the next

(01:26:49):
year or two, there's certainly ahuge demand for this category.
Tell us a little bit aboutwhat's ahead for you and the
team.

Speaker 11 (01:26:56):
Absolutely, it is a year.
If I can distill it down to onesimple word, it's growth.
We've grown our internal team,we've grown our fleet of ships
across all of the destinationsthat we sail to and we have the
largest fleet, the largest UScompany fleet, in the Galapagos.

(01:27:18):
Amazing ships from our largestship, a little over 100
passengers.
All of the ships are smallships.
We have two 48-passenger shipsin the Galapagos and my personal
favorite, a 16-passengerCadmaran in the Galapagos.
So, yes, so we need, betweenyour family and my family, we
need another family of four.
We can go take the Delfina andthe Galapagos, the 16 of us, and

(01:27:42):
have our own little privatejourney, the 16 of us, and have
our own little private, uh,private journey.
Uh, but it is it for me,specifically in my role, it
really is just introducing, uh,national geographic linblad
expeditions to to new audiencesand new people.
Uh, there are, there are plentyof individuals, entities,
groups that are that are justwanting to get out and explore

(01:28:05):
and want to have that experiencethat National Geographic and
Lindblad Expeditions can provide, and it's really just being
there and being present andpresenting the opportunity for
them to visit these places.
So for me, going forward, itreally is just introducing as
many people as I can to NationalGeographic Lindblad Expeditions
and just sharing what we do andhow we do it and let them be

(01:28:29):
inspired and then get on avoyage and then, beyond that,
the same for National GeographicLindblad Expeditions, just to
see the success and theenjoyment and guests coming back
and telling their friends.
I was on this Antarctica voyage.
I was with a past traveler.
She has done 11 NationalGeographic Lindblad expedition

(01:28:51):
voyages and she can tell youevery person she was on board
with every moment and experienceand it's just great to hear
those stories and thosetestimonials from people.
And then we had the folks thatwere the brand new first time.
I would I love that the firsttime for some of the families
was Antarctica go big or go home.
And yeah, just sharing, sharingwho we are and what we do, and

(01:29:16):
just sharing the destinationsand the way we travel with as
many people as we can.

Speaker 2 (01:29:20):
Yeah, that's amazing.
I'm so happy for you.
And the other thing I wanted toask you too, just given the
background you have with ETC andnow, obviously, all the work
you're doing in the cruise space, what are some of the other
benefits you've seenspecifically from this year's
conference compared to previousones?
I know you guys sponsored theopening keynote this morning,
which was amazing, with MichaelClinton, the author of Roar, who

(01:29:42):
we'll have on the podcast atsome point coming up.
But he gave an amazingpresentation about longevity and
the rapid growing 50 plusaudience and how you know
wellness and the things that areimportant to them and the type
of travel that you offer.
Like it was a perfect brand fit.
And I came up to you rightafterwards to be like that was
amazing and what a great brandsynergy.
So that was a highlight for me.
But what have been some of thehighlights for you?

(01:30:04):
Obviously, I'm sure that wasone as well, but what have been
some of the other standouts?

Speaker 11 (01:30:07):
That was absolutely one of the top highlights, one
of the things that I love aboutthe conference regardless of
what city it's in, theconference always hosts what are
called learning labs.
And this year, here in Mobile,we had three learning labs at
the very start of the conferenceand the learning labs are an
opportunity for as many as whocan participate, who can arrive

(01:30:30):
on Monday, to truly immersethemselves in the destination
and experience the place.
And of the three learning labs,the one I chose just because I
was fascinated by the history.
Mobile holds the title of theproviders, the originators of
Mardi Gras in the US, and Ithink there might be a debate
between them in New Orleans, butI am solidly in the Mobile camp

(01:30:52):
but getting to participate inthat learning lab where we
learned a little bit about thehistory of Mobile, pre-colonial
times, as a French, as Spanish,everything that contribute to
what Mobile is.
Uh, we were led down the streetsof Mobile, uh, by the Excelsior
band, which is one of the?

(01:31:12):
Uh, the largest uh, or theoldest uh, the oldest Mardi Gras
band here in Mobile.
So, excelsior band, check themout, they're fantastic.
They led us down the street forfour or five blocks.
We went to the uh, uh, we wentto the mardi gras or to the
carnival museum, uh, and I thinkone of the the more fascinating
, we went, uh, to one of the uh,to one of the societies, to

(01:31:36):
their uh, to their floatwarehouse, where these floats
are absolutely incredible, the,the art and the crafts, the time
and attention to detail to makethese floats, and every year
they get torn down, rebuiltagain.
It was just such a fascinatingview into the culture, into the

(01:31:57):
traditions of Mobile and just tohear everyone we met that day,
the way they spoke about theirpassion for their city, why
these traditions are soimportant, yeah, uh, you know
that's going to always sit withme forever.

Speaker 2 (01:32:11):
That's fantastic.
I mean I I wish I was therewith you.
I mean we'll have a chance tohang out tonight because
obviously I want thisconversation to go on.
I know we'll get more time tocatch up, so it's wonderful to
be here together.
I want to make sure that anyonelistening to this that is only
just coming to know you and howawesome and amazing you are,
that wants to find a way toconnect with you or to work with
you in some way, please leteveryone know how best to find

(01:32:34):
you, connect with you and alsoto learn more about National
Geographic Limblad Expeditions.

Speaker 11 (01:32:38):
Absolutely.
Can I give an email address onthe For sure?
Yeah, absolutely the easiestway.
I mean all the usual placessocial media, linkedin.
But first name, ian I-A-N dotKiner, k-y-n-o-r at
expeditionscom.
I'd love to answer anyquestions that you have.
At the very least, I would loveto just talk travel with you
and continue to do so for hoursand hours.

(01:33:00):
But IanKiner at expeditionscom,that keeps things easy.
Find me on LinkedIn as well,ian Kiner, and we're good to go.

Speaker 2 (01:33:07):
Awesome and obviously expeditionscom is the place to
check out.

Speaker 11 (01:33:10):
Expeditionscom.

Speaker 8 (01:33:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (01:33:11):
That's it, that's for everything.
That's for everything.
National Geographic, lindbladExpeditions, for sure, amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:33:16):
Well, thank you for your continued friendship and,
obviously, camaraderie in thisindustry.
I look forward to getting moretime together and having you
back on the show at some pointas well, too, ian.

Speaker 11 (01:33:25):
I would be honored to.
I would love to.
It's great to chat with you,Dan.

Speaker 2 (01:33:28):
Thanks a lot, Ian.

Speaker 11 (01:33:30):
Thanks.

Speaker 2 (01:33:31):
I now have the privilege to sit down with a
true veteran of ETC.
Jim Friedlander is thepresident of Arrangements Abroad
.
He actually kindly gave us someadvice for our AI Summit
session that we're going to bedoing tomorrow, but he's been
coming to this conference forover 25 years and I know there's
going to be a lot that we canlearn from you, Jim, about ETC.

(01:33:52):
So welcome to Travel Trends.
Great to have you on.
It's a pleasure to be here andan honor.
That's great, Thank you.
Let's start.
If you don't mind to giveeveryone just a bit of
background, because you do quitea bit in this industry.
Tell us a little bit how yougot into tourism in the first
place.

Speaker 1 (01:34:08):
Well, you know, I got into tourism the old-fashioned
way pure nepotism.
So my parents foundedArrangements Abroad in 1977.
My mother was a schoolteachertaking kids overseas, kids
overseas.
I got into it In 1999, I joinedthe company and became CEO

(01:34:29):
shortly thereafter and 10 yearslater my parents retired and
I've been running it ever sinceand it's been a lot of fun.

Speaker 2 (01:34:37):
It's been a great journey, that's a great story,
and actually I did know thatbecause when we had the pre-call
and I found this reallyfascinating.
Actually, just your backstoryis that many people who work in
travel do come from travelfamilies, or did less and less
so today, I suppose, butnevertheless I do find that
fascinating.
It's the business you're borninto and it's the business you

(01:34:58):
know, and you've been runningthis business now for more than
25 years, and so there's lotsI'm keen to ask you, but I guess
just to start off with, to makesure everyone knows what you
guys do, give us a bit of anoverview of what Arrangements
Abroad.

Speaker 1 (01:35:13):
So we run about 100 to 150 trips all around the
world.
We primarily take Americans,but about 10 or 15 percent of
our travelers are from overseas.
We work with very high-endpolitical groups.
We work with high-end I meanlike Washington think tanks.
We work with the topuniversities in the country, the

(01:35:34):
top secondary schools andcolleges, and we take them all
over the world.

Speaker 2 (01:35:40):
We take their alumni, we take patrons of museums and
we show them the world in a waythat they can't do it on their
own give us a couple of examples, if you wouldn't mind, because
I think this is where, like,obviously you've been in this
industry for many years and alot of the trips that you curate
, I'm sure are quite special andunique.
So give us maybe, if youwouldn't mind, jim, just a

(01:36:01):
couple of examples ofitineraries you've put together.
And when you mentioned those,you know those, know those
high-end political groups, likeyou know, you have to name them
specifically, but it'd be great.
I'm just trying to imagine andpicture exactly what one of
these experiences looks like.

Speaker 1 (01:36:14):
So one of those experiences that we did recently
was taking a group of seniordiplomats to various NATO
countries that are involved inthe Ukraine-Russia conflict,
ending with a meeting with theSupreme Allied Commander of NATO
.
So we visited presidents, wevisited ministers of defense,

(01:36:35):
key army installations, reallyto go behind the scenes in a way
that you could never just walkinto any of these places on your
own.
It was all private jet, it wassuper high end and very special
trip, no kidding.
But it's trips like that that Ithink are good for
international relations, aregood for relationships around

(01:36:57):
the world and add meaning towhat we do.
Those aren't just tourism trips, those are trips that bring
connections.

Speaker 2 (01:37:05):
That's fascinating.
I'm really glad that I askedthat question because I figured
you were going to have a reallycompelling answer to that.
And I guess this is wherethinking for our audience, many
people who are either new to thetravel industry or getting into
the travel industry and clearlythere's a lot of people that
are veterans as well but I'msure, even if they are, one of
the things they're wondering,same as me, is like how do you

(01:37:26):
get that kind of business right?
It's like an ETZ, obviouslyalumni programs we'll get into
that in a moment but that is avery unique audience.
So clearly you know yourparents had the business and
you've been running it verysuccessfully for quite a number
of years.
But how do those opportunitiespresent themselves or how do you
court those types ofopportunities?

Speaker 1 (01:37:44):
For the most part people approach us and you know
we've done other trips, you knowtaking a board of directors of
another Washington think tank toCuba, and you know engaging in
really conversations that aretracked to diplomacy, meaning
not official government togovernment, because there are a

(01:38:04):
lot of things that are frozen.
When one government talks toanother government, you know
they have to be official but youcan have side conversations
with people who used to be asecretary of state and they're
much more productive.
So that track two diplomacy issomething that we foster but you
know that's a small part of ourbusiness.
We also work with high-endcultural groups in the visual

(01:38:25):
arts the performing arts andacademia.

Speaker 2 (01:38:32):
Yeah Well, one of the ways, I'm sure, is the
referrals that you clearly youknow when you run a great
business operationally andbusiness finds you because
they've heard great things andthis is, you know, very clear
even just as we sat down.
Jim is a clearly highlyrespected person here at ETC.
So let's bring it to alumni andwhat brings us here, because
obviously that's an importantpart of your business as well.
So tell us how you got involvedwith ETC and, I guess, a bit of

(01:38:56):
an overview of the type ofbusiness that you generate as a
result of connecting with thesealumni organizations.

Speaker 1 (01:39:01):
So I think the great thing about ETC is the you know,
you hear the word community allthe time and that there are
people who come from thedifferent aspects of the tourism
journey for a traveler.
So it starts with a destination.
If you are a destination, lotsof destinations come here to not
to sell but to educate thetravel planners.

(01:39:22):
Not to sell but to educate thetravel planners, the people who
are representing theuniversities, to educate them on
what their destination has tooffer.
And you know, I'll give anexample, maybe a controversial
example, but an example.
You know, israel came here 10,15 years ago.
There were zero trips to Israelfrom this community 15 years

(01:39:48):
ago and they had invited me on afam trip and I went and I said,
wow, what an interestingdestination.
You know, here's the Bible.
You know, like, everywhere youturn it's a biblical reference.
And you know, and I gave theman introductory conversation and
I talked about how I wassurprised by how rich it was and
what there was to see.
So I think you can take acountry and spotlight it.

(01:40:14):
Ten years after that there area hundred trips a year.
Well, right now there's zerotrips a year, but you know, ten
years later there were a hundredtrips a year to Israel.
Yeah, so a huge investment onthe part of Israel to come and
be a sponsor and do a dinner foreverybody.
But it really paid off becausenot only did they get bodies

(01:40:34):
going to Israel, but they gotinfluencers, people who were in
a position to influence policy.
I think I could give you a lotof other examples.
That was just one that poppedinto my mind of how a
destination can use ETC.
So there are destinations here.
There are also suppliers herecruise lines, hotel companies

(01:40:57):
we're sponsoring the dinnertonight, co-sponsoring with
Rocco Forte, high-end hotelcompany, great properties in
Italy and around the world, andwe're proud to be associated
with properties that representexcellence and then foreign
suppliers.
Some of our relationships goback 40 years.
We tend to change suppliersvery infrequently and we're very

(01:41:21):
loyal to the people we workwith.
Why?
Because when things go wrong intravel, that's when you show
who's good and those longrelationships pay off.
So if I need a helicopter andon a moment's notice nobody asks
me for a credit card, they'rejust oh, jim needs a helicopter,
send it.
And you want thoserelationships.
Because travel, even despitethe internet, is a very personal

(01:41:44):
business For sure.
Travel, even despite theinternet, is a very personal
business.
For sure it's a personalrelationship with each
individual traveler.
Or we would call off some newprogram that they're doing and

(01:42:08):
take that and show it off in away that makes those
institutions look good.

Speaker 2 (01:42:14):
That's great, but one of the things I would certainly
appreciate and I'm sure ourlisteners would as well someone
like yourself who's got morethan 25 years experience coming
up in a family business.
You have been through crisis tocrisis.
You've been through 9-11.
You've been through the Iraqwar.
You have been through,obviously, the pandemic most
recently and this is whereyounger people and part of my

(01:42:36):
inspiration for this podcast istrying to speak to myself 20
years ago and what are thethings I would have liked to
have known?
And you seem to be someone thatobviously can impart a great
deal of wisdom and advice.
And so, as we find ourselves inchoppy waters in 2025 and a bit
of uncertainty whether it bethe economy or geopolitical
events how are you navigatingthis and what would be your

(01:42:57):
recommendations for others thatare asking these questions about
what's changing with travel?
Are they still traveling?
Are they traveling?
Are they changing where they'regoing?
How are you approaching thatand what advice would you have
for others?

Speaker 1 (01:43:09):
Let me go back in personal history for a second
and just say before I was in thetravel business, I was in
international banking and thenconsulting and then crisis
management.

Speaker 2 (01:43:20):
So you're well-positioned to answer this
question.

Speaker 1 (01:43:22):
And crisis management is particularly a good
background for the travelbusiness in my years.
We've had volcanic clouds inIceland, we've had volcanoes,
we've had earthquakes, we've hadChernobyl, we've had bombings.
We've had everything, covidbeing by far the worst, and our

(01:43:42):
office is in New York City.
So we were three blocks fromthe world trade center on 9 11
and so, yeah, we've, we've hadit all.
Yeah, and yet we're still hereand people are still traveling.
During the dark days of worldwar ii, when hitler's armies
were, you know, marching,marching across Europe, people

(01:44:03):
were still going on vacation.
Travel is not something that yougive up.
It is actually not a want, itis a need for most people.
The question is, how much arethey able to do physically,
legally, monetarily?

(01:44:24):
But people don't give up travel.
That's number one.
Number two they're not going togive up travel now.
Now, there are going to be newrestrictions.
There are going to be, you know, places where you may not be
able to get into.
There are places we don't go.
Now, you know, we were justasked to do a trip to Pakistan
with military escort, and I'mlike, just asked to do a trip to

(01:44:49):
Pakistan with military escortand I'm like, no, I do
leading-edge travel, but notbleeding-edge travel, and yet I
would love to go to Pakistansomeday.
It's a beautiful country, buttoday is not the day for an
American diplomatic group to begoing to Pakistan.
So there are all kinds ofdestinations.
Iran is a beautiful country.
Persian hospitality is famous.

(01:45:10):
But you have to pick and chooseyour moments.
I can't wait to go back to Iran.
There will be a moment.
Cuba, our closest neighbor tothe south, 90 miles away from
Key West.
I've done 50 personally, 58trips to cuba over the last 25
years.
Wow, I have a foundation calledthe havana heritage foundation

(01:45:34):
just to preserve the city ofhavana, and we're in
conversations now about doingsome preservation projects there
, where we shipped threecontainers of books on historic
preservation and architecture toCuba recently.
Who's sending books to Cuba incontainers from the United
States?
I don't know.
Maybe someone else is doing it,but I don't know who it is.

(01:45:55):
But it's the kind of thingwhere you can do good in the
world through travel.
Travel is a force for good is aforce for good.
It's a force for connectingpeople and places and leaving
the people you meet and theplaces you go to better off than
before you went.
That's not going to end.
It's what drives me every dayand I really believe that travel

(01:46:18):
is a force for good and I'malways pleased to be part of it.
And if I were a young personsaying, what do I want to do
with my life?
Isn't that something you'd wantto be associated with?
It's not just about the dollars, it's about the people.

Speaker 2 (01:46:31):
Well, it's so wonderful to speak to someone
who is so enlightened, informedand so outward looking and,
especially at this time, anAmerican and Canadian sitting
down and having thisconversation.
It's wonderful, it's refreshing.
I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
I greatly appreciate the factthat you made time for me before

(01:46:53):
and I couldn't be more thankfulfor you making time for me now,
and I know that our audience isgoing to really benefit from
this conversation.
So I just wanted to say thankyou very much for this and also
I want to make sure that all ofour listeners can connect with
you and the team for futurecollaboration opportunities.

Speaker 1 (01:47:09):
So, if you mind leaving us with that, and then
we'll be sure to keep in touch,Jim Well before I give you that,
I have to say how much I'veenjoyed this conversation and
have somebody ask me theseprobing questions, because I
don't frequently get a chance totalk to people and we don't
really talk about our work.
We do it, but we're very behindthe scenes.
We support the institutions wework with, whether it's the

(01:47:31):
Metropolitan Museum of Art orHarvard or Brookings or the
Council on Foreign Relations orwhoever it is.
We work with high-endinstitutions, so you never see
my name on anything or hear myvoice.
Our company is located in NewYork.
You can look at our website,arrangementsabroadcom, and the

(01:47:51):
other one isthemuseumtravelalliancecom, and
so we're easy to find on the web.
A lot of the trips we do arenever on there because they're
private.
They're just for a board groupor a trustee group, so you won't
see everything about what we do, yeah, but we're very open to
new collaborations with peopleall over the world and we're
always looking for the latest,coolest products.

Speaker 2 (01:48:15):
That's fantastic.
Well, a lot of our listeners toour podcast, interestingly
enough, are investors, a lot ofVC firms, private equity firms,
which I hear from afterwards.
So I'll be intrigued to hearsome of the reach outs that
happen afterwards, because I'msure a lot of people are going
to be captivated with thisconversation.
I certainly have more questionsthat I'm keen to ask you about
some of the trips you'veorganized, based on what you can

(01:48:37):
share or you can't share,because you're a fantastic
storyteller and you've obviouslygot a lot to offer.
So, Jim, thank you again andI'll look forward to keeping in
touch with you.

Speaker 1 (01:48:46):
Likewise Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:48:50):
I now have the pleasure to speak to someone who
I have just met, but I'm verykeen to speak to, and he's been
coming to ETC for over 15 years,which is amazing.
He's based in New York City andhe's the founder of Immersion
Journeys.
Rumi Meta thanks for joining uson Travel Trends.
Thank you.

Speaker 7 (01:49:06):
Lovely to be here.

Speaker 2 (01:49:07):
It's great to have you here.
I'm really keen to get yourtake on all things educational,
travel, what's happening at ETC.
But let's start with a bitabout your background.
So tell us how you got intotourism if you want to take us
back that far.
But specifically, I'm obviouslykeen to know a bit more about
Immersion.

Speaker 7 (01:49:21):
Journeys.
Sure, like most of us in thiscrazy world of travel, we all
had former careers.
I trained as an architect, Iworked as an architect, I worked
in construction, and then I gotburned out and I decided I need
to find something else in life.
And I was born in Kenya, I grewup in Tanzania, so I did

(01:49:42):
safaris all my life no wayAmazing.
So travel was sort of in my DNAand I decided to make a small
pivot.
And I had an opportunity,worked for somebody and decided
man, I actually like this sideof the business.
And then, a few years later, Ifounded my own company,

(01:50:03):
immersion Journeys in 2009.
And so here we are in 2025.

Speaker 2 (01:50:08):
So tell us, give us I've got so many questions but
tell us, give us an overview ofImmersion Journeys and what you
guys do.

Speaker 7 (01:50:14):
We are a small boutique tour operator.
We design custom trips toAfrica India, bhutan, nepal and
Sri Lanka.
That's our expert zone.
That's all we do.
Every now and then I'll do aplug for Europe if a friend asks
me.
But besides that we arethoroughly experts in the

(01:50:35):
regions of East and SouthernAfrica and West Africa and India
, bhutan, nepal and Sri Lanka.

Speaker 2 (01:50:40):
Got it.
I think it's interesting,especially when you mentioned
the small pivot no-transcript.

Speaker 7 (01:51:15):
I got introduced to her.
She was from a particularcollege, wanted to help get a
presence trip designed andtalking to her she said have you
ever been to ETC?
And I didn't know what that is.
And she said, well, you shouldcome, almost 17 years ago
because I skipped a few, showedup and been coming to ETC every

(01:51:38):
year and sort of building myrelationships with many schools,
being also part of thecommunity, also working with the
ETC folks and being on panelsand these kind of podcasts.
Yeah, so becoming participantsand a big advocate of
educational travel, because wethink there has to be an
educational component in everytravel thing.
It's not just a checkbox, forsure.

Speaker 2 (01:52:00):
And how significant, and you don't have to give the
exact numbers, but I'm genuinelycurious because this is a world
that is fairly new to me.
I've been in the travelindustry for more than 20 years,
but educational travel is not aarea I spent a lot of time in
and it's my first ETC conference, and so understanding this
whole ecosystem, how meaningfulit is for you with immersion
journeys like is it asignificant amount of your
business that comes throughalumni programs?

Speaker 7 (01:52:21):
It is.
It is.
It's not a significant part ofmy business compared to some of
my peers over here, but it isabout 30%, 30%, 35% of my
business Because we're small, wedon't try to chase after every
bit of business or we're not inthe big volume business
considering.
We customize every trip forclients, so we're very strategic
on who we work with, what theywant to do, what the

(01:52:43):
deliverables are and therefore,by default the volumes are not
massive, but we're in a verycomfortable sweet spot where we
get approached for certain kindof trip planning and
deliverables.

Speaker 2 (01:52:57):
So take us through some of those.
I mean, that's where going backto your roots and the fact that
take us through some of theitineraries that you
specifically offer, thedestinations you focus on.

Speaker 7 (01:53:05):
Yeah.
So here a perfect example is ina few months I'll be doing I'll
be actually escorting a trip toKenya and the mandate came from
the dean of the veterinaryprogram of that particular
school.
Considering, you know, wantingto learn, sort of put them in
front of conservation officers,conservation type schemes,

(01:53:28):
sustainable tourism in the worldof climate change and human
wildlife conflict and all that.
So we designed a trip to givethem behind the scenes tours.
That's who we are, what we'reknown for providing some of the
more unique experiences.

(01:53:49):
So the day in the life ofImmersion Journey is planning
for a particular school.
That's starting with a what doyou guys want?
You came to us but what is itthat you want out of a
particular trip?
And then we sort of design itbased around that, depending on
the budgets and number of daysand when and how, and who is the

(01:54:10):
faculty that's going to be sortof the host of that trip and
what is typical group sizes?
Typical group size will runanywhere from 10 to 20 people.
These are not big groupsconsidering the type of areas we
go into.
The lodges are small.
The camps are small.
It's also very focused.
It's educational in a way, butit's a lot of fun.

(01:54:31):
They still do the safaricomponent, the adventure behind
it, but we like to keep thingsin sort of bite-sized chunks.
There's a lot of interactionwith our guides.
There's a whole learningexperience behind that.
Otherwise things get drownedout if there's a very big group.

Speaker 2 (01:54:47):
Yeah these kind of trips.
Yeah, it's interesting becauseI mean we've on this uh podcast,
this special spotlight from,etc.
We've had a number of reallyfascinating conversations and
you add a unique dimension tothat because we've been talking
about um cruising.
Obviously there's been a fewcruise suppliers here that do
kind of luxury small ship or andso land tours.

(01:55:08):
Obviously, that's part of mybackground and I love
specifically Africa.
Like we literally just finisheddoing an African safari series,
nice and so and I've had theprivilege to travel to Africa a
couple of times and I can't waitto get back, and so I think the
world needs to like there's agreat line that you're probably
familiar with If you couldtravel to two continents and go
to Africa twice, right, and it'snot till you go that you really

(01:55:30):
get what that actually means,and it is.
So tell us what are some of thetrends that you're seeing in
the travel industry as itrelates to immersion journeys,
educational travel.
I'm genuinely keen to get yourperspective on this.

Speaker 7 (01:55:44):
In the 15, 16 years that I've been involved in the
ETC side I think the educationaltravel we've actually seen a
lot of shifts in the way theuniversities are thinking and
their clients or their donorbase are thinking, their alums.
They want the attention.
They don't want hand-holding,necessarily, but they want

(01:56:05):
something unique, Right.
And I always tell people thatwhen I'm designing an itinerary
you've been to Africa, you wentfrom A to B to C to D to E.
That's the easy part, it's whathappens between those points
the extra, the spontaneity thatcomes with it, some of the
experiences that clients facethat were either pre-planned or

(01:56:27):
not.
So clients sort of in a weirdway, kind of don't really expect
it, but we can provide that andthe demand for certain things
like that has increased.
Everybody wants to have anopportunity to go on a trip with
us or similar trips, come backand talk to their friends about
it.
Look what I did and that iswhat the uniqueness, the pivots

(01:56:51):
that we've started to see andhow to create a unique trip
based around that.

Speaker 2 (01:56:56):
And then ETC this year.
Obviously, I'm sure every yearis a little different, and last
year was in Winnipeg.

Speaker 7 (01:57:02):
Yes, your home, your country, exactly yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:57:07):
And, depending on the sequence of people listening,
listening to sarah robinsonjoined us from tourism, winnipeg
and she was going to highlightit to me.
That was in winnipeg last year,uh, which was great to hear,
but nevertheless, uh, clearly itmoves around year to year.
So if you wouldn't mind becauseone thing we actually haven't
done with any of our guests istalk about the destinations that
the conference has been beforeand then maybe kind of bring us
up to speed with how you seeMobile and this destination and

(01:57:31):
this year differing from eventsin the past.

Speaker 7 (01:57:34):
It is.
And it's actually funny.
You mention that because justthe other week a friend of mine
was asking me where I'm off toand I said I'm going to Mobile.
He's like, oh, mobile from NewYork?
Why?
I said well, because I have aconference, et cetera.
And I said well, because I havea conference, etc.
And I said the advantage ofcoming to ETC is you see a new
city that you probably wasn'teven on your list to visit, I
would never think about.
Well, I really want to go visitMobile.
I would go to New Orleansbecause it's right next door,

(01:57:58):
but Mobile why?
So it's a great way to seeAmerica in a weird way and, more
importantly, it is about seeingparts of the United States.
And, granted, we went toWinnipeg last year.
We had a Bermuda destinationseveral years ago before COVID.
I thought that was fascinating,yeah, and so you learn

(01:58:18):
something about your backyard,literally.
And that's what I coming toMobile was.
Huh, you know, I walked around,I walked around, I walked
around neighborhood.
There's a little bit of Frenchinfluence here, based on the
building architecture, since I'mfrom the architectural
background.
You know, the food, of course,is great.
Of course I live in New YorkCity, so why should I be talking
about food?

Speaker 4 (01:58:39):
You can get beignets there, yeah, but not as good as
over here or crawfish.

Speaker 7 (01:58:44):
So that is a great way to sort of learn and that's
part of the ETC ecosystems thatthe city that is hosting you
also should be part of theconversation when we're talking
in panels or talking to ourclients in the meetings.

Speaker 2 (01:58:59):
Yeah, and then this year in particular, as obviously
you've mentioned Mobile, whichit's my first time here as well
we're doing a food tour tonight.
As I understand, and even whenI was speaking to Mara and
looking forward to coming, shewas giving me a bit more context
on the history Susan Blackjoined and she did the day
before and went and did the tour, and I didn't have a chance to
get here early for that.
But, as you pointed out, thisis a great way to explore

(01:59:21):
America and to see parts of thecountry you wouldn't otherwise
and so I see many benefits tothe way that it moves around.
I'm thrilled that it's here inMobile, but the event this year
we're sitting here together onday two.
We're getting to the close ofday two.
Obviously, there's another bigday tomorrow, but I'm genuinely
keen to hear some of thehighlights you've seen this year
, whether it be the content orsome of the partners speakers.

Speaker 7 (01:59:47):
What stood out to you this year so far?
Well, every year there's atheme, and this year's theme is
about collaboration andtransformation and how to work
as a team.
It's a multi-legged stool.
You have the operators, youhave the ground teams and the
guides, you have the travelplanners, you have the
universities.
Um and I was on a panel earlierabout you know how to get, you

(02:00:12):
know how to make the hosts stepup to the plate when they're,
when they're hosting a trip, thefaculty or someone, and how to
enhance that to how to juice itup a little bit more, because
that is how the universitiesstay in touch with their, their
base, their alumni base.
So I thought it was, uh, it wasan interesting theme.
Because, back to the pivotquestion, yeah, well, what are

(02:00:34):
some of the things, the trendsyou're starting to see?
Well, these are the trends,these are the things that people
are expecting.
Yeah, and and yes, you may berunning, you may be a small
travel program or you may be avery large one.
So, small is six trips a year,up to 50 trips a year or more.
But the question is are youproviding certain trips that are
unique, that will resonate,that will meet the university's

(02:00:57):
credo or their mandate, whateverthey have Right, and that's
what we're beginning to see.
I really kept a close ear onthat this year.

Speaker 2 (02:01:07):
Yeah Well, it's interesting and this is where
it's valuable to get yourperspective, given that you've
got this great history of beinginvolved with the organization
and clearly you enjoy being herein the networking.
But obviously, ultimately ithas to be about the business
opportunity, and that's the partthat has stood out to me from
the conversations, and also thebazaar, the international bazaar

(02:01:27):
.
Everyone has their booth set up.
Tell us how that works.
Were you doing the seven-minutemeetings?
Well, it's 15.

Speaker 7 (02:01:35):
Oh, 15.
Okay, it's a little slower thana speed date.

Speaker 2 (02:01:39):
So what happens there ?

Speaker 7 (02:01:41):
So this is where you're meeting some of your
existing clients.
You may see them in theiroffices if you're on a road trip
.
I also met with a couple ofprospective clients who are
looking into trips and, with my15-year history, they pretty
much know who I am.
They're talking about 2020.
They're programming for thenext couple of years.
So this is how it is.

(02:02:02):
It's fun.
It's time for everyone to catchup and start thinking of ideas
and the idea.
It's funny because everybody'slike well, what's new, what's
the trend, what's selling?
In which countries are youselling more?
Because everybody's lookingaround looking for ideas from
their cohorts.
For sure, yeah, yeah, exactly.
And so that's my job now tosort of close the deal.

Speaker 2 (02:02:23):
Well, that's exactly why this is called Travel Trends
, right?
Because you, like me, that'swhat we're gravitating to is,
we're trying to figure out whatare the signals we should be
paying attention to.
So, on that topic, there's acouple last questions I had for
you, and I also want to makesure that travel, obviously
being a very important sector,do you see, obviously there's
geopolitical factors we all needto be aware of, and up until
very recently, it was just allsystems go, and all of a sudden,

(02:03:00):
now we're seeing some choppywaters, and so it's more
important than ever that peopleare trying to figure out where
people are traveling, what's thesentiment, what are some of the
things that?
How do you approach?
That, I guess, is what I wantto ask you.
So it's not too timely, but howdo you approach?
You know, being at a conferencelike this is obviously one, but
what are some of the otherthings that you do to make sure
that your business is, you know,well positioned to navigate?

Speaker 7 (02:03:20):
those.
It's a fantastic questionbecause this is what we're
beginning to see in the last fewmonths, and a little bit of
anxiety, choppy waters.
You know where is the economygoing.
You know if you were in thebowl talk.
This morning there was a wholeconversation about people are
living older and therefore theirportfolios or their retirement

(02:03:42):
portfolios have to last longer.
People are definitely beingaffected by what's been going on
in the world.
What we try to do is we try towork very closely with the
schools to say look, what areyou?
I mean, this year is a littlebit early to tell where things
are heading.
But it's in the back of ourminds to say, okay, if there's a
trip opportunity next year,2026, 2027, where might we be?

(02:04:06):
What kind of pricing we need toworry about, what kind of
things we need to talk about?
So we're not scaring thepotential traveler, because it's
a loss to everybody thetraveler, the school and us if
nobody goes on a trip.
And so we always try to keepour hand, our finger, on the
pulse here and we can see what,if we can predict like, okay,

(02:04:30):
this is where we think we mightbe going.
The the very expensive high-endtrip is now going to be
probably dumbed down a littlebit.
We'll use a slightly cheaperproperties and to keep things
keep things on the cheap so yeswe, we, we do keep things um, um
, on on you know in in play whenwe're talking to our clients.

Speaker 2 (02:04:49):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
Meta just had a friend justcome by and I think she assumed
we were on video so she jumpedin to try and do a….

Speaker 7 (02:04:56):
She's one of my top clients.
Oh, is that right, she's one ofyour clients.

Speaker 2 (02:04:59):
She jumped in for a photobomb moment.

Speaker 7 (02:05:01):
I think she was looking for the camera, but it's
all audio.

Speaker 2 (02:05:04):
Anyway, that was nice and this is where it's really a
community.
Here at ETC.
That's certainly what stood outto me.
People care, they look out foreach other and clearly you're
well-connected in this community.
One last thing I want to ask youand I want to make sure people
can follow up with you, and thisis about your travel plans on a
personal level, because I'msure you, like me, love

(02:05:27):
traveling.
Clearly, like that's obviouslya passion for you.
You've decided to, you know,switch up careers and be in this
space, so that this issomething that consumes you and
you're obviously you wouldn't bein it if you didn't love people
and love travel.
So I find for me that it'srestorative to go and have a
great trip, because it takes youout of the business side of it
and actually puts you in andkind of gives you a reminder of

(02:05:49):
this is why we do what we do,and you were starting to
highlight that about being inMobile, and so I guess I was
just keen to ask you what travelplans you have on a personal
level for 2025.

Speaker 7 (02:05:58):
Well, I just came back from an Antarctica cruise
which is absolutely fabulous.
It went down with a little bitof trepidation because I'm not a
cruise guy, but then realizedit is very much like a safari.
Who did you go with?
Do you mind me asking?

Speaker 2 (02:06:10):
I went with Atlas.
Okay.

Speaker 7 (02:06:13):
And it was a personal trip.
Yeah, yeah, that's great I'mheading actually to a personal
trip meets business trip toBotswana because I have to part
know part of my, our job is tokeep the quality control going,
so we're inspecting lodges andcamps.
These are people we use all thetime.
These are partners in thebusiness, so we're going to go

(02:06:34):
and check out places.
My wife is joining me, so it'sa little bit of a holiday, so
we're doing a little bit of that.
So I can, I can.
The nice thing about ourbusiness is we can combine
business with pleasure, as longas the business side doesn't
supersede the pleasure.
Otherwise it would be anightmare to you, constantly
working otherwise.

Speaker 2 (02:06:52):
Well, the reason I jumped in so quickly on the
Antarctic is that one of ourother guests on this podcast who
works for National Geographic,Lindblad Expeditions.
He just came back from theAntarctic and he was telling us
how extraordinary it was andit's a place I'm keen to go.
So clearly you had an amazingexperience absolutely amazing.

Speaker 7 (02:07:08):
Yeah, and limb blood.
I would say hands down would beone of the.
If I ever went back again, Iwould try limb blood, no fair
enough, but botswana.

Speaker 2 (02:07:15):
So botswana is high up on my list for many reasons.
Obviously they got incredibleuh camps there and uh some
amazing luxury safarisaris andsome really unique terrain, and
so Botswana for me.
So I'm going to be keen to knowbut you've been before, have
you yes multiple times.

Speaker 7 (02:07:33):
Okay, yes, yes.
So you know that area quitewell.
Yes, very much so.
Absolutely fabulous country.

Speaker 2 (02:07:38):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Well, rumin, obviously I'veenjoyed meeting you.
I'm really keen to keep intouch with you.
Well, rumin, obviously I'veenjoyed meeting you.
I'm really keen to keep intouch with you.
I want to make sure that ouraudience can as well.

Speaker 7 (02:07:50):
So if you wouldn't mind sharing the best ways to
connect with you after this, youcan go on our website
immersionjourneyscom.
You can call me at 917-686-2620.
You can WhatsApp me on thatsame number.
I'm a 24-7 entrepreneur here,so happy to take your calls.

Speaker 2 (02:08:05):
That's bold it.
I'm a 24-7 entrepreneur here,so happy to take your calls.
That's bold.

Speaker 7 (02:08:07):
It's one thing to give an email address, but, man,
my email address is too long,so you just call me, it's fine.

Speaker 2 (02:08:13):
Let's see your WhatsApp light up over the next
few days when this launches.

Speaker 1 (02:08:16):
Hopefully, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:08:16):
Yeah, with new business, but no, it's a real
pleasure to meet you Absolutely.

Speaker 7 (02:08:20):
This was fun.
Yeah, I look forward to keepingin touch.

Speaker 2 (02:08:26):
I'm joined by another first timer who I had the
privilege to sit in hispresentation yesterday.
His name is Mateo Luthi andhe's the managing director at
Journey Mexico.
He's based in Cancun and thisis his first ETC, like me, so
welcome, mateo.
Great to have you on the TravelTrends podcast here.

Speaker 6 (02:08:44):
Thank you very much and hello everyone, and it's a
pleasure being here.
Thank you, Dan.

Speaker 2 (02:08:50):
Well, I certainly enjoyed the conversation you
were having, especially becausemexico and canada, certainly at
the moment, given everythingthat's going on in the world
there's a lot of kinship betweenour two countries and I thought
the session that you werehighlighting was really
fascinating for all thelisteners in the room because
you were talking about thechallenges of perception in a
destination and I work with theteam, uh, as a tour operator in
colombia and actually juliana,the ce of perception in a

(02:09:10):
destination, and I work with theteam as a tour operator in
Colombia, and actually Juliana,the CEO, was in the room at the
same time and poor Colombia keptgetting brought up as another
example of a destination that,having a troubled past, people
have a negative perception,which unfortunately sometimes is
the case with Mexico or itcould be with Canada.
But so tell us a little bit,mateo, about that session
yesterday.
People have heard from Michaelfrom Purdue, matteo, about that
session yesterday.

(02:09:30):
People have heard from Michaelfrom Purdue, who was on that
panel as well, but I would loveto hear your, I guess, summary
of the session yesterday andsome of the key points that you
wanted to share with theaudience about that topic.

Speaker 6 (02:09:42):
Yes, absolutely.
Thank you very much and it was,I think, a very successful
session.
We got a lot of questions andeven after the session we
continued talking about, as youknow, I mean the situation in
Mexico has not changed.
I mean it's really a questionof how everything is perceived.

(02:10:05):
So it's very strange.
Strange, you know, becausebeforehand everybody traveled
during the pandemic, becausemexico was open, I mean, a lot
of canadians came down and andeverybody came to the beaches
and nobody really wondered if itwas safe or not.
I mean they just traveled right.
And now suddenly presidentchanges in us and suddenly, oh

(02:10:26):
no, you know what, maybe weshouldn't travel to the.
To me, so it was weird.
It was weird on that side, butI feel it's a lot of perception.
So we talked about theperception, we talked about that
.
Also the distance.
I mean it's a really largecountry like Canada, which is
huge.
I mean, if something happens indowntown Toronto, it doesn't

(02:10:47):
mean that you cannot travel toVancouver or Whistler for skiing
, you know.
And those are the samequestions we get, you know.
So there were actuallyquestions raised about
geographical knowledge andhistory, about what we can
improve as tour operator, youknow, to the global market.

Speaker 2 (02:11:05):
Yeah, Now, that was fascinating.
I learned a lot from yoursession.
Global market yeah, no, thatwas fascinating.
I learned a lot from yoursession.
Even in use that exampleyesterday, when you're talking
about the size of Mexico, islike Western Europe and
something happens in Spain andpeople are not going to go to
the Netherlands, and obviouslythat that sounds ridiculous, but
it's to your point.
And this is where, whenheadlines get on the news and
any destination can be subjectto this and I've certainly seen

(02:11:26):
it in all many years over travelindustry is that as soon as it
hits the headlines, all of asudden travelers stop coming
until it gets off the headlinesand eventually travel comes back
.
But certain destinations, ifthey've experienced war or
conflict, there's differentreasons that it takes a while to
come back, and Michael washighlighting some destinations.
It literally takes a generation.
Absolutely, it can take 20years to come back.
Yes, yes, I think.

(02:11:53):
Fortunately for both of us, wehave two great countries with so
much to offer that obviouslythings will fluctuate, but
ultimately people are going togo to Mexico and people are
going to travel to Canada.
So let's talk about JourneyMexico and the organization that
you represent and what bringsyou to ETC.
So tell us, I guess, first alittle bit about Journey Mexico,
your role and what you guys do.

Speaker 6 (02:12:08):
Well, journey Mexico.
We started actually off in 2003.
And we are three partners andthe main founder, zachary
Rabinor and his wife, rebeccaScotti.
They started actually in agarage in San Diego.
So, the idea was to offer,showcase Mexico's true value,

(02:12:29):
and that's not necessarily thebeaches, because I mean beaches
are anywhere.
Even in Canada we can findbeautiful beaches in the summer
and so we decided to go actuallyinland, you know, show like the
roots, the Aztec or Mixtec orZapotec or Mayan cultures, and
then with that also all thecolonial cities and the

(02:12:50):
gastronomy and this.
So obviously, 20 years ago thatwas quite new.
Right now it's much morepresent and people travel to
Mexico City, to these wonderfulplaces, and we absolutely are
excited about being in Mexico,showing you Mexico the true
values.
And there is many, many things,but just as a fact, I mean the

(02:13:13):
UNESCO World Heritage Sites.
You might know what this all is, but Mexico has like 58 of
those, so it's number eight inthe world and in all of the
Americas it's number one.
I mean I think the UnitedStates are second place in the
American continent North andSouth America they have 21.
So I mean it is a lot andtherefore I mean you can imagine

(02:13:36):
.
So what we are looking for is toreally showcase the travelers
when they come, to give themlike a learning experience that
they bring back something.
They learned something new,something, they learned
something new.
So it can be being with like alocal community, or it can be
like an off-hour visit of theAnthropology Museum in Mexico
City, or it can be anything, butit must be something meaningful

(02:13:58):
.
For example, families, you know, going to an archaeological
site for small children isprobably not the most exciting
things.
But what if we offer, like, ascavenger hunt?
So the parents are there and wedesign a scavenger hunt, so the
kids are actually reallyenjoying running up and down and
they are always close to usbecause they go along with the

(02:14:21):
guide, you know, and then theyfind this treasure, you know,
which usually is like a littlealoosh, which is like a
leprechaun, which we do like inYucatan, but it's very special,
you know.
So we explain that and so theybring this little puppet back
home.
So that's like the idea is thisSustainable travel is another
very important factor, because Ithink more and more people are

(02:14:43):
asking us to give back, to helpcommunities, to help natural
environments, and so we do havethese projects already set up
and actually today we wereannounced in Travel and Leisure
as the number one company in theAmericas doing it.
So we're also B Corp certified,so we are doing a lot for the

(02:15:06):
community.
We're doing a lot for Mexico,and we are doing it not because
we want to do it, because wegenuinely believe in these
things.
So that's basically whatJourney Mexico is, so a true
insider access with friends,good guides and it's all around.
So I mean, basically, if youtravel with us, you don't have

(02:15:26):
to worry about it and everythingis tailor-made to your needs.

Speaker 2 (02:15:34):
Congratulations on that recognition, well deserved.
And the other thing I would justhighlight too, from your
comments there about the dna andthe ethos of journey mexico is
very much in sync from what I'vecome to experience here at etc
and some of the feedback we hadas I was preparing for my
keynote.
We interviewed about sevenpeople in advance of the
conference and one of therecurring themes is people just
love being in this industry.
That's their true passion is tobe in this travel space, and so

(02:16:03):
it's not purely a profit motivebut clearly we need to generate
business and we need to bringin new clients.
So I just thought I'd make thatconnection because clearly
that's something that's standingout to me, how special this
community is, that connection,because clearly that's something
that's standing out to me, howspecial this community is.
So, on that note, I guess,mateo, given it's your first ETC
and understanding thatbackground about Journey Mexico,
what are some of the thingsthat have stood out to you so
far about the benefits of beingpart of this community, whether
it be some of the networkingopportunities, the presentations

(02:16:25):
you've been able to be a partof, what have been some of the
standout highlights already foryou?

Speaker 6 (02:16:29):
I feel that this is something.
This is a very good question,dan, because I feel this is
something we have to addresswith the younger generation.
They probably even my motherdoesn't really understand what
I'm doing and it's actuallyfunny, you know but I do feel we
have to work.
We have to transmit this betterbecause, honestly, this is not

(02:16:52):
the work.
This is a lifestyle.
I mean, if you're looking towork from eight to six or
something like that, or notworking on Saturdays or Sundays,
this is probably not the workyou are looking for to do.
But you get so much back.
Like ETC, it is my first time,but I feel like it's my 10th
time because after two days, Iknow everyone, I know how to

(02:17:15):
work.
I have been in many of these uh,trade shows, you know, and so
it's always fascinating that weall have the same passion we all
have.
We are the same.
I call it tribe that go around.
You know we are, we are likenomads, we are explorers, we
know what we want and you speakwith a guy from Tunisia and you

(02:17:35):
probably don't even know, orfrom Bhutan, and suddenly you
learn new things.
So we have to make this a muchlarger and much stronger
community and showcase it to theworld and then make sure that
the younger generation also fitinto this to this part, because
that's probably one of the newchallenges we will have because,
honestly, as you can see inthis etc.

(02:17:57):
There are not much young peoplethere.
Everybody's like at a certainage.
You know, I'm 53, so I feelalso I'm like on the older part
and I mean I started like with25, 23, joining these meetings
and it was obviously a differentvibe and a different area.
But now I mean I'm 53, you know, and I don't see these 20 or

(02:18:18):
30-year-old people walkingaround in this ETC or in other
travel shows.
So this is very important and Ifeel that could be a highlight
for them, you know, to work withus or for the travel industry.

Speaker 2 (02:18:30):
Yeah, it's really interesting.
You mentioned that because IanKynor, who joined this on this
special spotlight episode aswell, was talking about the fact
that there's a mentorship and amentee program, and I have seen
there's only a few youngerpeople I would say younger
people, people in their 20s thatlook like they're, you know,
starting out in their career.
People, I would say youngerpeople, people in their 20s that

(02:18:50):
look like they're starting outin their career, and I was
encouraged to see the peoplethat I did see because, as you
said, the average age isdefinitely 50 plus, but there's
certainly a lot that thatyounger generation can benefit
from the elders that are here,that can impart their knowledge
and their wisdom and reallyunderstand the value of truly
human connection, because one ofthe things that's come up as a
theme in these conversations iscommunity and connection, and

(02:19:12):
that's why people are comingback to ETC and, as you
mentioned, I mean people havebeen coming for many years.
I think at the welcomereception last night, the number
of people got up there, youknow there was four people that
spoke and they'd been coming forat least 20 years and obviously
this has been around for over30.
And many of these people haveknown each other for a long
period of time and so clearly,yes, there's an opportunity to

(02:19:33):
bring more people in andhopefully, people listening to
this and hearing that call toaction from you like there's a
huge amount of benefit foryounger people in the travel
industry to come to ETC.
So, but in terms of some of theother sessions or I know you
also have some of theone-on-ones and the various
workshops what are some of theother things that?

(02:19:53):
Again, this is all new for me,so I'm very keen to get your
perspective about what are someof the other benefits of being
here at ETC.
You mentioned the networking,for sure, but, yeah, is there
anything else that has stood outto you that is unique about
this conference?

Speaker 6 (02:20:11):
else that has stood out to you that is unique about
this conference, I think.
Uh, in general, I feel like,well, the networking, as you
already mentioned.
But I feel another thing thatis really, really important is
the part that we all want tohelp each other, you know.
So we start like talking maybenot even with with clients, but
with co-workers or co-peoplethat also work, that do our job,
maybe in Greece or in Tunisiaor in Bhutan or in any other

(02:20:34):
places.
So suddenly we start liketalking oh, what do you do when
you have this situation, or howcan we improve certain orders?
So I think those showcases arereally valuable and, at the end
of the day, it's a lot aboutconnections.
You know it's not aboutbusiness one-to-one.
I mean like, or I have twogroups sold and I go back home,

(02:20:56):
you know it's more about theconnections and and the people
will think about you.
Or if they have some seat tomexico, eventually they will
think about journey, mexico,right, oh, that's a company I
want to go because, oh, they hadthey, they nailed it, all those
points, you know.

Speaker 2 (02:21:11):
Yeah, one of the other things I'm keen to ask you
is private groups, and DouglasQuinby, who runs Arrival, just
caught up in ITB recently and onhis presentation he was showing
that prior to the pandemic,private groups was about 17% and
now, of people that have beenin a private group, is about 17%

(02:21:31):
of travelers and now it's morelike 47%.
Yes, and so I was keen to knowwhat have you seen Because that
was certainly a trend during thepandemic or at the end of the
pandemic that people were, youknow, for all the reasons
necessary, traveling withprivate groups.
But even now, I think, from myexperience, mateo is that more
and more people discover theycould travel private and if they

(02:21:51):
get the right number of peopletogether, they can create a
private trip.
So tell us, if you wouldn'tmind, whether it be private
groups, some of the other trendsthat you're paying attention to
that you're seeing in travel toMexico.

Speaker 6 (02:22:05):
Well, I mean, we were really blessed and we were
lucky for once in Mexico, so wedidn't have any problems at all.
I mean, everybody was travelingto Mexico because it was one of
the few countries they couldtravel to, and people they
travel because they want totravel, it's a necessity, it's
not like a luxury item.
So people love traveling andcoming to Mexico was really

(02:22:28):
important.
So we studied ways on how do wecould achieve even better ways,
and one of these was exactlythe private travel.
So we designed private jettravels so that they could
travel in like in 10 days, allover mexico, which is a huge
country.
Yeah, as you know, so it's likeuh, and so we were doing like

(02:22:48):
three days, maybe in Cancun andthen we were flying to Chichen
Itza and then we were flyinginto the center of the country
and then we were in BajaCalifornia, los Cabos.
But that could be done with theprivate jet, you know.
So it's easy to travel andsuddenly it wasn't so expensive
because people were actuallygathering together, so we were
talking like groups of eight,ten people and they didn't know

(02:23:10):
each other.
So, like five couples, a niceguide and super highlighted
experiences in each of thesedestinations and it was
magnificent.
So we were really selling thesetrips easily and the people
wanted to do them.
So private travel is definitelysomething great.
Right now we are strugglingagain on selling it because

(02:23:31):
there are so many newopportunities for for people to
travel, you know, and so theyare going back to europe or back
to any other destinations theywant to.
They want to go, you know.
But I feel private travel isstill very on and specifically
like that specific niche.
You know, we see, likegastronomy, people that want to
go out with specific chefs andthen they want to go, like to

(02:23:53):
the community where they weregrowing up.
These chefs so that's adifferent and the markets and
all of that side.
Or like whale watching, youknow, like nature events.
You know we have a fantasticwhale watching in Baja
California or the monarchbutterflies in Michoacán, in
Mexico City area.
So it's all like specificallydetailed trips that we can offer

(02:24:13):
.
So, from that side, privategroups are very, very important
and they are growing more andmore.
So I think right now, speakingin ETC that's my leads the most
of the leads are exactly forthose, for the private groups
that are looking to get thesespecial treatments and not
traveling like in large motorcoaches with 60 or 70 people,

(02:24:35):
you know.

Speaker 2 (02:24:36):
Yeah, exactly no, that's really fascinating, and I
also want to go back to thefact that you mentioned FIT as
well.
But just before we do, ifpeople are looking to engage
with you, because it may be thecase that you don't meet
everybody here and someonelistens to this podcast
afterwards in a second, I didn't.
I didn't get to attend mateosession.
We didn't get to meet.
We're there.
I always find it amazing whenyou've been to a conference for

(02:24:56):
three or four years and you meetsomeone that has been the same
and you haven't met yet, because, I mean, even there's 300
people.
You just can't possibly meeteveryone in just a few days.
And um so, for anyone who'slistening to this, that is
interested in the group side ofthe business or the alumni
whether it be people from theevent or any of our global
listeners that might beinterested where should they go
for more information, to connectwith you and to learn more

(02:25:18):
about Journey Mexico?

Speaker 6 (02:25:20):
Well, we have a website, but I think probably
the easiest is to shoot me anemail.
So my email is Matteo, withdouble T, so that's M-A-T-T-E-O
at journeymexicocom.
So write me and I will be morethan glad to answer any
questions and put you togethereither with one of my travel

(02:25:41):
planners, but, even better,let's jump on a call.
So that's the best thing to do.

Speaker 2 (02:25:46):
And I'm sure you're going to get a few CVs at that
email address as well for peoplewho want to work with you,
especially when you live in anepic place like Cancun and
Matteo was mentioning to me thathe's a diver and this is where
you've got a great role with agreat company and you've
obviously found a greatlifestyle, and this is where the
stars align and you canwillingly take a call on a
Saturday or Sunday because it'sthe right lifestyle.

Speaker 6 (02:26:07):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (02:26:08):
But the other thing I wanted to go back to just
before we wrap up is FIT.
I mean, it is a growing segmentof our audience and we are
working actively to grow the B2Cside and we're actually going
to be introducing a new seriesof podcasts focused on
destination spotlights, and sowe are seeing that more and more
listeners are intrigued when wetalk about certain destinations

(02:26:31):
and obviously I love travel, soI'm always keen and I could
chat with you for another halfan hour just about Mexico and
get your guidance and advice formyself, my family and our
friends and all the people Iknow that are keen to travel to
Mexico.
So we can come back to that.
But people who are looking foran FIT experience how do they
connect with you?
Is it the same way they email?

Speaker 6 (02:26:50):
you directly.
Yeah, it's absolutely the sameway.
We right now have a groupsdepartment, which is very little
, but we have to make it morerobust.
But it's definitely the sameway, on the same email, and I
will redirect them.
It will be very important tounderstand why are you coming
down or what are yourexpectations in order to really
fine-tune and get you also theright guide, because that's

(02:27:12):
another very important thing,because it's not just like our
guides are specifically trainedfor specific needs and for
specific adventures or forexplorations that you need, you
know.
So I think it's it's alsoanother thing that stands out
with us, and training of theright guides is very important
because the experiences need tobe not just good, they need to

(02:27:37):
be extraordinary, and once again, it's that if not, you don't
learn, you don't link in, youknow, and that's very important
for us.

Speaker 2 (02:27:47):
Totally, mateo.
I'd like you to leave ourlisteners and myself too, for
that matter with a hidden gem inMexico that many people may not
be familiar with, or, even ifthey are, that you'd like to
highlight that in 2025 is acompelling reason to travel to
Mexico.
But if you had to narrow itdown to one area city experience
that you would highlight to ourlisteners that they can quickly

(02:28:12):
get online after this anddiscover it for themselves and
learn more.
But, yeah, where would youpoint them towards?

Speaker 6 (02:28:20):
I would say well, that's a very good question.
You got me there.
Yeah, as you said, there aremany, but I would say an area
that we are working right now,um, I would say, go to with the
yucatan peninsula, you know,around merida.
Yeah, we have found some cavesthat national geographics are
actually exploring and they arevery, very old I mean more than

(02:28:44):
3 000 years old and you can goand explore those caves with
Mayan guides and then with theMayan shaman.
That's something really amazing.
I will send you a picture of itbecause that's just a wonder,
wonderful experience to to do,and it's a it's in Merida, so
it's very close by.
So awesome.

Speaker 2 (02:29:04):
I'll make sure that we post it on our social
channels as well.
We'll include that so thatpeople can find it.
And the one for me, mateoisaxaca.
I'm desperately keen to get toOaxaca and I'm a huge fan of
markets, so I'll be reaching outto you for some suggestions on
that.
But, mateo, it's been a realpleasure to meet you.
I'm glad we had this time tosit down together, talk about

(02:29:26):
Mexico and make this connection,and I certainly am encouraged
to hear how business is going,and I want to see that you
continue to succeed.
So I certainly wish you and theteam all the best for 2025 and
beyond.

Speaker 6 (02:29:37):
Thank, you, dan, and thank you all to listen and, as
we always say, mi casa es sucasa, my house is your house.
So come on and visit.

Speaker 2 (02:29:48):
Hello everyone, I now have the privilege to sit down
with Michael Luongo, who I hadan opportunity to attend one of
his sessions yesterday.
It was really fascinating.
We'll talk a little bit moreabout that, but he's a PhD at
Purdue University.
But he's also an author, ajournalist, and he has a lot to
offer in the world of travel, asI discovered yesterday.
So I was keen for him to joinus as part of this podcast.

(02:30:10):
So, michael, great to have youon Travel Trends.
Thanks for joining us, thankyou, thank you, dan, thank you.
One of the things I didn't getto ask you yesterday is your
background with ETC.
Have you been to these eventsbefore?
What is your connection to thiscommunity?

Speaker 9 (02:30:36):
No, this is the first time I've been here.
Mara reached out to me I haddone a talk in Atlanta I'm going
to blank on the name of theconference but it was about
social justice, about theenvironment, peace and tourism
and you know I'd spoken at thatand Mara had kind of seen that
I'd spoken at that and kind ofinvited me into this and we were
trying to figure out thedifferent ways I would be able
to contribute to this.

Speaker 2 (02:30:51):
That's cool, because I mean, there's only a couple of
people that are featured onthis series, that are first
timers here at ETC, because manyof the people, as our listeners
have heard from theseconversations, have been part of
this organization or beenattending for 10, 15, 20 years.
right, it's amazing.
So what brought you to ETC thisyear?
And obviously Mara reached outto you and she saw you speak
elsewhere, but I guess what drewyou to this event?

(02:31:12):
And obviously the session thatI attended yesterday?
I want you to be able to sharewhat you were talking about and
some of the takeaways.
But, yeah, what drew you here,aside from the connection with
Mara?

Speaker 9 (02:31:21):
Well, I think I'm part of a university, I'm at
Purdue, I'm a PhD student in thetourism school.
I also teach in thecommunication department.
So this idea also that it's theeducational travel consortium
you know I have not yet taughtstudy abroad.
I'd love to do that.
I always have theseconversations about it.

(02:31:41):
I'm very familiar with thealumni groups and how they
travel and again, it's one ofthose things where people say,
hey, maybe we'll bring you alongto, and that hasn't happened.
But you know, I think here I'vebeen on two panels and so
yesterday was looking atdifficult locations to travel to
.
You know, my research is onIraq, afghanistan, rwanda,

(02:32:03):
ukraine, very difficult placesin war-torn tourism.
Today was the breaking barriers, the diversity one.
So those are two of my areas ofexpertise and that's what Mara
wanted me to have that broadjournalistic but also academic
view on these things.
And I think journalism youreally look at many, many more

(02:32:27):
countries and much more broadlyat things.

Speaker 2 (02:32:30):
Yeah for sure.
No, that's really great contextand that obviously connects to
the session that I reallyenjoyed seeing you a part of and
a few of your colleagues therelike Susan Black was in the
session and you had JourneyMexico and there was a number,
but your comments really stoodout to me.
You went first, obviously, butpart of the highlights actually
I'll give you the floor to sharethem.
Of the highlights, actually,I'll give you the floor to share

(02:32:50):
them because obviously theseare your points.
But I was just going to connectwith our audience that after
the presentation, you and I hada really fascinating
conversation.
That stood out to me because wewere talking about places like
Rwanda and just some of thegeopolitical factors that don't
necessarily make the headlinenews and when you're trying to
understand trade issues and someof the complexities to our
modern world, some of the thingsyou were highlighting to me
that I really foundintellectually stimulating is

(02:33:11):
that there's more going on there, but on the surface, the topic
was about destinations that arechallenged by their perception
and you started going right intoplaces like Iraq and these
places Ukraine that you'resupposed to travel to.

Speaker 9 (02:33:25):
So tell our listeners a little bit about the purpose
of yesterday's talk and some ofthe things that you highlighted
in that conversation okay, um,so it was quite a broad
conversation and I, you know, asa journalist, we go to places
that most quote-unquote normaltravelers are not going to go to
.
So you know, right away, youknow most travelers are not
going to go to iraq, they're notgoing to go to ukraine, they're

(02:33:45):
not going to go to these places.
Maybe they could go tokurdistan in the north, which is
much safer now.
Most of iraq is generally safe.
This, this out from the war.
But among the things we talkedabout are what are the ways you
can get to understand a countrythat is in conflict better as a
traveler and educate yourself,and among those things are to

(02:34:08):
visit border regions whererefugees might be or people have
temporarily settled.
You can go to a restaurant,like we talked about Kurdish
restaurants and how you can dothat in Turkey and get an idea
of the.
You know Kurdistan is thelargest it would be the largest

(02:34:29):
ethnic group without its country.
You know you can speak to Iraqirefugees in Jordan Jordan is
very safe Switzerland of theMiddle East and these ways in
which you can get a betterunderstanding, keep yourself
safe, but have a betterunderstanding of the geopolitics
, the wars, wars that we, the USare involved in have.

(02:34:51):
Perhaps you could say we causedthem in many ways, particularly
with Iraq, and this way youknow more than what is in the
headlines.
You really get a very personalview of what it is like for
those people who have escapedfrom war.

Speaker 2 (02:35:07):
Yeah, well, one of the things you pointed out too,
the point you're making, merrillabout the border towns like
that, even though a destinationIraq being a great example you
shared that there's a concernabout safety, understandably, in
some areas of the country.
However, Kurdistan, as youhighlighted, was actually one of
the safest places to be able totravel.
If you want to go to Iraq now,you can go to southern Iraq.
You're also highlighting thatpeople traveling to Ukraine are

(02:35:28):
traveling via Poland and goingthrough Krakow.
And I thought this was reallyinteresting just in terms of
actually trying to helptravelers understand how this
travel is occurring.
For executives, for diplomats,and a lot of these countries, as
you well know, they're tryingto prepare themselves for the
tourism that will come on theother side and they're dealing

(02:35:50):
with these negative perceptionsof a destination.
I still remember what it waslike when we went to vietnam and
this is 15, 20 years ago towhat my in-laws perceptions of
vietnam were, you know.
And so, because they associateit with the war and even though
that was like 50 years ago now,um, it's still the images are
that they associate um with that.
That region and Iraq is muchthe same.
We know these destinations asconflict zones that were

(02:36:13):
presented to us on the nightlynews, not as places that you
would otherwise go for a holiday.
So, yeah, I loved the session.
So how did you get into thisspace?
Tell us about your backgroundin journalism and how you
decided to specialize in thisarea.

Speaker 9 (02:36:25):
So I mean one of the things you know, going back a
little bit to the perception, itcan take up to 20 years, a
whole generation.
And it's one of the things Italked I did a TEDx talk on this
and and it's one of thosethings where I want to know who
the early travelers are and whythey come and if we can
understand that better.
But you know, I had been toconflict zones, if you want to.

(02:36:48):
My first trip to Israel andPalestine was in the aftermath
of the Oslo Accords, so I wentin 1996.
I was getting my master's inurban planning at Rutgers.
I was actually researching gaytourism back then and so a lot
of my work, my early work, wason gay tourism, but I was always
interested in locations thatpeople were worried about going

(02:37:08):
to.
I went to Turkey in 1998, andthe idea of Midnight Express was
still something that people andeventually I interviewed the
guy from Midnight Express.
So perception and worries aboutfear, but it really was 9-11.
I'm from New York Actually I'mfrom New Jersey, originally,
grew up on the Jersey Shore withthe whole idea of tourism as

(02:37:32):
something you grow up with.
But I was on a cleanup crew,rescue crew, a few days after
9-11 with my then brother-in-law, and that experience of digging
for dead bodies, digging fordead New Yorkers in the rubble
of the Twin Towers, wastransforming and it made me
think.
I said to myself, I thought ofBeirut, even though I had not

(02:37:55):
yet been to Beirut, and the ideaof images of rubble that people
were digging through, which wenow see in Gaza, which we now
see in Ukraine, which we now seein many places, but I knew we
would be launching wars fromthis.
But I knew we would belaunching wars from this and, as
somebody who covered travel andLGBT issues in particular, my
view was how can I use thoseniches of mine that I was an

(02:38:19):
expert in and look at war?
So it was through this lens ofrebuilding tourism and also LGBT
and human rights issues.

Speaker 2 (02:38:34):
That's really fascinating.
I'm going to ask I just want toask you about LGBTQ for a
moment, because we've certainlyon our podcast.
Danny Guerrero joined us and hereally educated me and even now
we work together in the travelindustry and he is an advocate
in the community and he'seducated me considerably and we
had a great episode where heeducated our listeners.
And one of the things I wantedto ask you just on this topic is
that, when we think aboutcertain destinations this came

(02:38:58):
up really recently with ourAfrican Safari series is that
there are certain countries thatare not known to be
gay-friendly or just haven'tlegalized gay marriage, and just
what an important considerationthis is for the gay community
to decide what destinationsyou're going to travel to, based
on the comfort level.
So the reason I want to ask youthis question is we sit here in
2025, obviously, dei is underattack.

(02:39:19):
We see pride festivals we weretalking about that yesterday.
It was another part of theconversation I was really
enjoying having with you is likeall these issues that are
cropping up in the world.
So, given that it seemed asthough we were making so much
progress, are you seeing thatagain as another issue that
needs to be highlighted to youknow, to help the destinations
understand how better to marketto that community to make sure

(02:39:42):
that they feel welcome.
Because this was the that's thebig insight for me I just
wanted to share it withlisteners was that because you
don't, even if you don't,specifically advocate for the
LGBT community, when you don'tdo that, you're not making them
feel welcome because there'sactually, as opposed to just
assuming so if you're not inthat community and this is where

(02:40:03):
I've started to understand allthe importance of being able to
market effectively, as opposedto saying, well, of course,
you're welcome, it's, it's like,actually, you need to be more
explicit about it.
So, yeah, so I just I wouldlove to get your take on this,
since you have great expertisethere's so many ways I could
answer that question, but Ithink a few quick things that
I'll say.

Speaker 9 (02:40:21):
Um, you know, I was on cnn because you're canadian
you know, canada had issued awarning.
They didn't explicitly sayTexas and Florida, but we know
that that's what they werereferring to this idea that it
might not be safe for theirLGBTQ citizens.
This is before all of the issuenow with the 51st state and all

(02:40:41):
of that stuff.
You know that while we in theUnited States think that we're
very advanced in LGBTQ rights,this is very uneven and even in
a city like New York there canbe so many problems.
But you often have, like inFlorida, fort Lauderdale, miami,
all of these great gay LGBT.

(02:41:04):
You know they're in red states,they're in states that overall
have problems, so there arethese bubbles.
The other thing that I wouldpoint out is and it's
interesting, you mentioned thisso Ronnie Weiss from Travel
Unity.
I interviewed him for a GayCity News piece after the New
York Travel and Adventure showor during the show, and one of
the things that he pointed outis that, if you know, when

(02:41:26):
places discriminate againstLGBTQ people, it also sets this.
You know they came for me, theycame for them, they came for
well.
Then, if I'm a little bitdifferent in any way, this is a
place I'm going to avoid.
So I think now, more than everthough with trans people under

(02:41:48):
attack, lgbtq rights underattack.
Trump has now taken away moneyfrom UPenn for transgender
issues.
So everywhere is under attack.
So if you want this particularmarket, you probably do need to
be a little bit more explicit,and that can be the ad itself.
That can be where you place thead.

(02:42:08):
So it's right now.
Everything is in such flux thatplaces that you considered safe

(02:42:32):
are not safe.
You may be the West, who has alot of money and privilege to go
on a safari.
Then this brings up all kindsof ethical issues At the same
time.
You may be able to haveconversations with somebody who
is gay in Uganda about what thatexperience is like, and if you
boycott a location, then youwill not have that conversation.

(02:42:54):
So this is really reallycomplicated.
It's multifaceted, butunfortunately we will see that
the whole world will be thissort of dividing along LGBTQ
lines, dividing on all kinds oflines, where some places will

(02:43:14):
need to set themselves apart assafe havens because so many
places we considered safe aren'tsafe in the way that they used
to be, and so this moment thatwe're in is really transforming
many things.

Speaker 2 (02:43:31):
Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that and obviously
going there in our conversation,just because you know I do have
a number of friends andcolleagues who are now
questioning their travel plans.
And a friend who's transgendernow actually has made a strong
effort to raise this issuewherever he goes, because he's
decided he's just going to speakout, he's going to be vocal and

(02:43:51):
he's going to wear shirts andit's just like and all the power
to him.
But many people are havingdifferent reactions and trying
to navigate this new time.
But that literally could be apodcast unto itself and we'll
have to have you back for thatdiscussion.
But to bring us back to ETC andwhat brings us both here, I
would love to hear what I bringsus both here.
I would love to hear what.
I know you've been attending anumber of sessions and clearly I
attended yours yesterday andreally benefited from it.
But what are some of the othersessions you've been attending?

(02:44:13):
What are some of the otherbenefits you've seen so far from
your first ETC conference?

Speaker 9 (02:44:17):
Well, I mean the networking, the talking with
people from differentuniversities.
I still haven't met the Purdueperson who's here, but we've
only, like Zoom, you know, had aZoom call and I haven't met her
yet here physically.
I think I've never been toAlabama before for one.
So that's something I'm verymuch looking forward to
Africatown and seeing.

(02:44:37):
I wish I was here for the dayof that training about the boat
and that history.
So, you know, one of theconversations was about language
.
There was just a session that Iwent to about how you bring up
topics, how you have discussionswith people.
We talked about it in theBreaking Barriers, but this was
more workshoppy, where they hadspecific examples, and so that's

(02:45:00):
one of the things Talking withpeople about how they're
navigating this whole issue withDEI.
There's so many differentthings that I could tell you
about what I have learned.

Speaker 2 (02:45:12):
So clearly you're glad you came.
You're getting enough benefitfrom it.
I'm assuming you're going to beback.

Speaker 9 (02:45:16):
Yes, I hope to yeah, I hope to yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:45:19):
Well, I'm keen for people to know more about you.
Obviously, this conversation isfar too brief for the substance
that you can absolutely offer,so I'm going to make a
commitment, michael, to havingyou back on the show we will
find a great opportunity to tobring you back.
I'm sure our audience willabsolutely want that.
So, but just in terms of beingable to connect with you, find
out more information about yourbooks, what you're working on,

(02:45:41):
how can people connect with you,michael, and learn more and
stay in touch with you until wehave you back?

Speaker 9 (02:45:45):
So I'll give you my website, which I definitely need
to update.
Everybody says it looks so1990s, your website, but it
still works.
Michaelluongocom,m-i-c-h-a-e-l-l-u-o-n-g-ocom, or
just Google me, you know, thoseare ways to stay in touch with
me and find out what I'm doing.

Speaker 2 (02:46:06):
Cool, and we were joking yesterday because Roberto
Longo is a famous hockey player.
It turns out that Michael isactually related to him.
I am related.

Speaker 9 (02:46:12):
Everybody would joke.
You know, and Canadians knowthe last name.
And then I went to ourancestral village and a French
Canadian, a Montrealer, answeredthe door and explained, and I'm
like, oh, I actually am relatedto Roberto Longo.

Speaker 2 (02:46:28):
Oh, that's awesome.
And you weren't so 90s as tosay www.

Speaker 1 (02:46:32):
So that was actually.
I'll give you credit for that.

Speaker 2 (02:46:34):
The website may be slightly out of date, but you're
certainly not so thank you formaking the time for this,
Michael.

Speaker 9 (02:46:40):
Obviously.

Speaker 2 (02:46:40):
I really enjoyed meeting you here.
Yes, I did as well I lookforward to keeping in touch and
wish you continued success withyour PhD.

Speaker 9 (02:46:50):
And, yeah, let's have you back soon.
Great, thank you, dan.

Speaker 2 (02:46:51):
Thank you Appreciate it.
I have the chance now toregroup after the event with
Mara, the founder of ETC, andI'm so keen to make sure that
she was a part of thisconversation because I want all
of our listeners to understandthe backstory, because there's
an amazing story about how Maracreated this conference in the
first place and she's very mucha passionate traveler and I also

(02:47:13):
want to get her highlights fromthis year.
So, mara, welcome to TravelTrends.
Thanks so much for joining us.

Speaker 5 (02:47:18):
Thank you, Dan.
It's a pleasure to be on airwith you.

Speaker 2 (02:47:22):
Likewise, and I just wanted to start by saying thank
you again for bringing me intothe conference this year.
It was wonderful to meet thecommunity.
It was terrific to have thatopportunity to give a
presentation on AI but, mostimportantly, to meet you and to
get to know this amazingorganization.
So thanks again for having methis year.

Speaker 5 (02:47:37):
Dan, I think your talk was a highlight.
I mean, we were sending it outnow, as you know, to everyone,
so high in demand.
I think there's an encoreplanned.

Speaker 2 (02:47:48):
Oh, that's wonderful.
I'm thrilled to hear that.
And, yes, as you kindlymentioned, we actually have
posted the video that you andthe team had captured and edited
and we posted it on our YouTubechannel.
So, if anyone wants to see thehighlights from this incredible
conference and we actually got achance to close the event
together as well and share somehighlights but, yeah, no, that
was a huge highlight for me andthat's why I want to have you as

(02:48:09):
part of the conversation.
So let's actually start withthe origin story, because I
spent a number of hours gettingfamiliar with the organization,
and there's this amazing articleand a wonderful picture of you
on a boat with an old schoolcomputer way back in the day,
bringing this whole organizationtogether.
So tell us how it all gotstarted.

Speaker 5 (02:48:26):
Well, it got started.
Actually, I worked with anorganization or a tour company
that did about 80% of theSmithsonian travel programs.
So I became passionate aboutreally taking a focus on
educational travel.
But it really began way backwhen I lived in Athens, greece,
for a year and I realized thatlearning in situ, learning in
the field, was about the mostimportant way to really absorb

(02:48:50):
history, life, art, whatever.
So I decided at that point thatI would go into tourism, but I
didn't know the direction.
So working with this programsince Smithsonian was really
helpful.
And so I was in the Caribbeanand that's where I came up with
the idea with a colleague ofmine that had worked with from

(02:49:10):
the Denver Museum of NaturalHistory.
We had worked together for along time.
I said let's do this conference.
It was never meant to be athree decade event, but we
started that way and I startedit off a boat on what I would
call the first luggable.
They called it a luggable atthat point Computer.
I ran it off a wind bugger forthe energy, and that's how the

(02:49:32):
conference started.
Of course, that was nevershared initially because that
was a little bit out there, buttoday it would not be.
I was always looking for officein a box, but today you would
certainly have that off a phone,but at that point there was no
GPS whatever.
So I was in Venezuela and allthe way up to about three years
at sea, and that's where I ranthe conference from Well such an

(02:49:54):
inspiring story.

Speaker 2 (02:49:54):
You're so ahead of your time.
It's remarkable, yeah, butplease continue on the journey
and also let everyone know whereyou're based now.

Speaker 5 (02:50:02):
I'm based.
I've been based for threedecades in Montana and I've just
made a shift to NorthernFlorida.
But I'm actually in Montanaright now as we're recording,
but my team is here, but I do goto Florida but then of course,
as you, I'm on the road a lot soI can't say I'm.
I think wherever I am is myhome in a sense, but certainly

(02:50:23):
would get back to those sailingdays.
They were great.
So the conference grew inmaturity and certainly demanded
a lot more of my time and I haveto say that educational travel
really has been around for along time.
In the 50s it was largelypromoted by museums and by the
70s and 80s the alumniassociations were really

(02:50:45):
developing it to a larger scope.
And I would say that ETC, orthe Educational Travel
Conference, was initially calledNonprofits and Travel MPTC and
we moved the title toEducational Travel Consortium
because that was better it was.
People did not understandnonprofits and travel for our
foreign delegates.
That came, and so we moved intoETC in the year 2000.

(02:51:09):
We changed the name, not theconference, and we we moved into
ETC in the year 2000.
We changed the brand of thename, not the conference, and we
went, moved on from there.
So I would say that ETC is asegment of the educational
travel markets, not largelystudent travel.
We're talking about adultlifelong learning through travel
and it's largely offeredthrough museums, alumni
associations, conservation andcultural groups, and that is

(02:51:30):
largely its focus.
But it conservation andcultural groups and that is
largely its focus, but it'scertainly expanding beyond that.
There's non-traditional studyabroad, things of that nature,
but largely we are dealing withthese organizations that are
using travel as a means toengage with their alumni or
their members, as well asdevelopment.
I mean, in other words, tocontribute funds to the
universities.
It's kind of unique in theStates.

(02:51:51):
It's not really seen worldwide.
It's a very unique sector,often under the radar for a lot
of travel, larger nationalorganizations and travel, but
it's a very significant one.
It's multi, multimillion dollarmarket and it's significant.

Speaker 2 (02:52:07):
Well, and just to add to that too, from what you've
built in the people that I had aprivilege to meet, a number of
colleagues that I had known foryears that were very active
within the ETC community, and Ijust had to highlight this, too
for our listeners, given all thepeople you've heard from
throughout this conversation,like Susan Black and Alan
Mershon and a number offascinating people that came
together for this event.
Uh, samantha Brown, there was somany amazing people that have

(02:52:29):
come together for thisconference and shared their
stories, but the one thing Ijust wanted to highlight to
underline your point there isjust you have a 300-person
conference that really controlstens of millions of dollars, and
someone had even highlightedbillions of dollars in revenue.
But the reality is theseorganizations have very
substantial travel spends andthe savvy companies have
realized the opportunity to beinvolved, like National

(02:52:52):
Geographic, lindblad Expeditions.
As a good example, ian Kynor,who I know is on your advisory
board.
He was a dear friend for manyyears.
He's been on this podcast aswell, so it's so great to
reconnect with people like Ianwho understand the value of the
organization and they changeorganizations, and one of the
things he highlighted to me wasjust how valuable long-term, all
these relationships are, andit's something that there's a

(02:53:14):
very special community that youhave built, and that's where I
wanted to understand from thevery beginning was this always
the vision that you had for thisorganization, like what was the
original mission, and how doesthat stack up today?

Speaker 5 (02:53:28):
That's a great question, dan, because it does
get to the core of why I did it.
I was sitting there thinkingthat I worked with a lot of
these organizations.
They were very disparate intheir connections.
I mean, you're talking backseveral decades.
There was no internet, therewas no.
I mean, some of the largerorganizations didn't know the
travel plan from anotherorganization.
And I saw that as I was in salesI saw that we really needed

(02:53:50):
education, we needed to connectthis community and so we
connected it through aconference.
I mean, basically, it was sixweeks out.
I said let's just mail toeveryone and see who will come.
And that's how it started.
I wanted to create a community.
People pushed call it anassociation.
I said, no, it's actually acommunity.
So I know that's a very popularterm right now, but it wasn't

(02:54:10):
that popular back then.
And I thought, no, there's acommunity and it's very
interesting through all of thenuances of what's happened in
the industry with 9-11.
I mean significant challenges.
This community held togetherand you could see that through
COVID.
Whatever it's been really myinspiration to continue and
develop that community.

(02:54:31):
But that's also what keeps meinspired to do it and you can
see it because people havechanged from travel planners to
tour operators, tour operatorsto travel planners.
You also see at the conferencethat there are tour operators
that are major competitors butthey share information.
It's very unusual that all theconferences that I had gone to
way back when you know, when Iwas selling programs.
So I think that's reallyimportant and I wanted to keep

(02:54:54):
it.
So we called it the EducationalTravel Community.
That's really what ETC you knowstands for.
But we said consortium to helpthe universities understand that
this was a consortium of travelprograms and it was a
professional organization and asthat community.
There is one other thing, danit is largely an educational

(02:55:14):
forum.
It's teaching through tourism.
So basically, our sessions arevery pretty much curated
throughout the conference onthemes, but they go very deep
into the topics that thesenonprofits need to address
because they have more at riskthan I would say the general.
Their risk is alienating theirdonors or travelers on the trip

(02:55:34):
could be very detrimental tothat organization, and so they
really have to look at theiroperators, look at the alignment
mission and they are missiondriven and that's a very
differentiating feature of thisorganization, of these, the
consortium, saying that they'remission driven.
So there's an alignment there.
So if you're mission driven,the community drives on that

(02:55:57):
mission, basically for education, and it's really really its
foundation education andcommunity.

Speaker 2 (02:56:04):
What stood out to me about the community is it's
certainly alive and well.
There has clearly been manypeople that have participated
over the years.
You've got a number of peoplethat work with you who have
clearly been loyal andlongstanding team members that
are clearly part of the cultureas well, and then the people
that have been there for 20years.
It was very common for me tofind that answer about how long

(02:56:25):
you've been coming to ETC or theevents and it's oh yeah, I
think this is only my 15th year,but many people were 20 years
plus.
But the other thing that stoodout too was the fact that you
welcome in new members and, assome of the listeners will have
seen on stage, the CEO ofImpulse Travel, juliana.
She's based in Columbia.
She actually attended thisevent.

(02:56:46):
She signed up as a member,attended, had a table and got
great benefit as a DMC out ofColumbia and as being a new
first-time member, and so it wasclear to me that the community
is alive and well when you haveestablished members and you have
new members coming in andclearly a very strong spirit of

(02:57:07):
collaboration and supporting oneanother.
That's a part of the community.
It certainly seems to be thecase that people within ETC do
business with people within ETCand there is that trust factor
and that's that a lot of theseteam members have built a moat

(02:57:31):
around their business that willstand up in the face of
technology because they havestrong relationships with their
customers, and especially whenyou think about the college and
alumni organizations across theUS.
So tell us a little bit abouthow it's grown over the years
and where you've hosted theseevents, because obviously, when
I was preparing, I read aboutyour background and I also saw

(02:57:52):
that the event was in Washingtonfor many years and Arlington,
but it's traveled around and weare obviously in mobile and that
was one of the questions abouthow the event gets chosen in the
different destinations.
So tell us a little bit moreabout the journey and how you
select the destinations for theevents.

Speaker 5 (02:58:11):
Well, I just wanted to bring up one thing, dan, that
you mentioned about thenewcomers.
Whatever, we have a strongmentorship program.
So we have tour operatorsmentoring other tour operators,
so I wanted to bring that up.
So those newcomers, like ourcolleagues, we also have a
work-study program, so some ofthe younger entrepreneurial
companies that really can'tafford, they don't have a lot of

(02:58:31):
staff, so they work and theyhelp.
So that is truly.
I mean, there's the heartbeatof the community right there.
And we also have a trainingprogram called Jumpstart for
Newcomer, new Travel Planners.
That's all volunteer led andtrained.
So I just wanted to mentionthat.
As far as where we're located,yes, it started in DC because
that's where I was working andit worked very well for some

(02:58:52):
years.
However, we moved aroundbecause we came up with the
concept of learning labs.
So we go to we significantlychoose by decision tier two
cities and when we go to thosecities, we use those cities as a
platform to showcase howeducational travel can be done
in any city.
You can take what you learn inthese learning labs and apply it
to anywhere in the world, fromNepal to Europe, wherever, and

(02:59:17):
what we use.
That is talking about the nextphase of educational travel.
It really is about curatedtransformational experiences, so
it's not just by default.
There's a whole concept oflearning through travel and it's
curated, so we teach that thosetechniques.
So when I used to lead programs, I was tour manager.

(02:59:37):
But today you need a tourfacilitator to facilitate some
of the difficult conversationsin different countries and
particularly with the kind ofaudience that we're taking your
members from alumni.
So that is why we've movedaround and so we've moved to the
West Coast.
We moved to Reno, la.
We've been in St Louis.
We also went to Canada and toManitoba, because Winnipeg truly

(03:00:01):
understands this concept ofcurated educational travel and
we had a significant experienceand we did it in the winter.
Curated educational travel andwe had a significant experience
and we did it in the winter.
So that was not a challengebecause we were talking about
the educational contact and thesignificant museums and
organizations and overallculture, cuisine that was
available there.

(03:00:22):
We went to Mobile.
We were also in MontgomeryAlabama.
That was very transformationalback in 2017.
In Montgomery Alabama, that wasvery transformational back in
2017.
So we strategically picked thecities that are really wanting
to showcase that could be usedfor the learning labs.
Some of the colleagues findthat difficult to have to take a
couple of flights to get tothose cities, but in retrospect

(03:00:43):
some of them have been the mosttransformational experiences.
So the conference is not just aconference.
It's an experience in itself oftaking my colleagues on a trip
through educational travel.

Speaker 2 (03:00:53):
Yeah, no, I'm glad you mentioned that, especially
about the mentorship, becauseobviously that is an important
feature of the organization andthat's something that definitely
has come up in theseconversations.
So I'm glad that youhighlighted that.
And then the other thing whenyou talked about the different
destinations, that was one thingthat stood out to me was that
these tier two cities I've neverbeen to Mobile Alabama before
and people did their pre-trip.
Susan Black talked about thison the discussion.

(03:01:16):
That was a real highlight forher because she had never been
and she's traveled extensively.
So that's one of the things Icertainly enjoyed about the
conference.
So tell us a little bit beyondthe time that we got together
and I know you kindlyhighlighted my talk, but I would
love to hear all the otherhighlights.
So I'm not fishing for acompliment and asking this
question, please.

(03:01:36):
It's not that I actually wouldlove to hear from you because
you were so busy throughout theconference.
And, of course, this is yourparty, this is your wedding.
Everyone comes together and youhave to make sure that
everyone's having a great timeand that everyone's taken care
of, and I could see how muchcare and attention you give to
that, especially the first nightwhen you're welcoming everyone.
It's great to meet your brother, who was there, but I could

(03:01:56):
just see the dynamic you havewith.
You know there's a wow factorwhen you walk into the room.
There's just you know peopleknow who you are, they have a
great deal of respect for youand you somehow can pull off
these events very smoothly, fromwhat I experienced.
So tell us a little bit of whatsome of the highlights were for
you this year in bringing thisevent together.

Speaker 5 (03:02:16):
The highlights I mean .
First, I should mention I havea great team.
Most of them have worked over20 years with me, largely
Montana team, and so I can'treally take credit for the
smooth running of the conference.
Yes, you want to set your teamup for success and I certainly
focus on that.
But my team, everyone knowsit's a real relationship between
my team and the people thatcome as well.

(03:02:38):
So I should say that we alsohave a wonderful speaker.
What was highlighted for me ismy team walked away really
excited, but also the speakers.
I mean we're reallyinspirational.
I think we focused largely Imean I mentioned the learning
labs.
That was really a high, for itwas really a high in Montgomery,
I mean, excuse me and welloutside Montgomery, because we

(03:02:59):
looked at Clotilda, which is thelast illegal slave ship that
left Benin I had just been inBenin three months before and
then also America's the largestbiodiversity area in the Henshaw
Delta.
So those were highlights andpeople really walked away and
we're actually getting more ofthe conference to go to the
learning labs.
I think we had about 40% it washigh on the learning labs this

(03:03:22):
year.
And then, moving into theconference itself, I think that
donor development and engagementwas large, large portion of the
conference and sessions.
Risk management, of course,every year, but responsible
tourism.
But there was a heavy focus onconservation.
Our conservation delegates aregrowing, the institutions that
are coming, so that was veryexciting.
They contribute a significantamount to the alumni travel

(03:03:45):
planners that come.
And then, of course,geopolitical trends are always
important and AI was a hitical.
Trends are always important andAI was a hit.
It was a whole day.
So thank you for keeping peopleawake.
On the last day People actuallychanged their flight.
I don't know if you knew that,dan, but a couple of my
international delegates saidwe've changed our flight.
We had to hear that talk and ofcourse, we have a huge demand,
so we've recorded it with yourslides and so it's going out

(03:04:08):
across, I guess, the network andit will be shown to a lot of
their upper management, which isgreat.
So I appreciate that.
And then Michael Clinton came.
He's founder of Roar Forwardand he talked a presentation on
travel as a catalyst forlifelong learning in the new
longevity movement and I thinkhe really spoke to our sweets.
The sweet spot travel that thisis where we have.

(03:04:31):
This is the next stage oflifelong learning.
We've been in it for a longtime but now I think we're
converging with, actually, thedemand from the demographics.
So that was the most excitingthing for me to see that talk,
because it just spoke what we doand why it's going to succeed
in it, and exponentially.
To be quite honest, you askwhat's happening.
My colleagues are overwhelmedwith the demand for their trips.

(03:04:53):
I mean, they're booking way outafter 2026.
So it's significant and you'retalking right after, you know,
not that far after COVID, whichwas very, very devastating to
the community.

Speaker 2 (03:05:04):
Yeah, no, it was exciting to see the enthusiasm
and level of booking activity,for sure, and that obviously
that continues, despite some ofthe geopolitical tensions that
we've seen that post theconference.
But I wanted to also highlightthe when you mentioned Michael
Clinton absolutely fantasticopening keynote speaker.
I didn't have the chance torecord with him, unfortunately,

(03:05:25):
on this, but I definitelyencourage our listeners to seek
out more information aboutMichael, his new book and he
gave a great presentation.
Alan Mershon, of course, wasthe second keynote speaker.
That was earlier in the day andhe was on this podcast, which
was excellent as well.
So it's just, everything seemedto really come together.
The stars certainly aligned,and this was my first experience
.
But for you, how did thiscompare to other conferences?

(03:05:46):
Is this very much in keepingwith what is kind of the ETC
standard?
Because it was certainly notonly a well-intended but highly
engaged conference.
The right people were there andeveryone was getting a lot of
value out of it, so clearlythat's what keeps people coming
back.
But for you, was there anythingparticularly unique or special
otherwise about this year?
Or is that really what anyoneshould come to expect for

(03:06:08):
attending an ETC conference orgetting involved in the
community?

Speaker 5 (03:06:12):
I focus largely a lot of my work with is on team, but
I do majority of my work forthe conference, to be honest, is
programming and I always try tohave a very tightly curated
program.
I mean that is our brand, oureducational.
I mean what we deliver in thesessions.
Some, some people, say it'slike trying to drink water out

(03:06:32):
of a fire hydrant.
I mean in the sense that I meanI'm programming, dan, for the
programmers, I'm programming formy colleagues running these
huge travel programs and veryprestigious, so universities and
institutions, and we have todeliver on an educational
program.
So 80 percent of the programreally is it's not a trade show.

(03:06:52):
I mean we do have ourone-to-one meetings, but 80% is
focused on programming.
We put an enormous amount ofresources and time so this year
it really was aligned.
I mean the way the trendsessions flowed was really.
I mean you get a moment in time.
Yes, I think this was one ofour best, but I have to say you
know they're all focused thatway.

(03:07:13):
I mean it depends.
It's a very exciting time andtravel too.
So, despite the challengesworldwide.
So it was fun to program it,but we spent six months
programming.
I mean we, but it involves allof the.
You saw how many volunteers, alot of the speakers from the
community, so you have to workwith everyone to get on the same
choir page and really address.

(03:07:35):
So spending two months in thesummer talking to colleagues to
find out what their issues areand then putting together with
my colleagues a program say thiswas one of the best conferences
on two levels for my team,because it was efficiently,
beautifully run.
The Montgomery delivered, butalso the educational program I
think was one of the best,although I have to say

(03:07:56):
Montgomery was transformativeand you hope that every
conference is your best, becausethat's about all people
remember is the last conferencethey came to.
So you need to deliver.
But it's very, very I think.
I mean it's not just a sessionstuck in between trade show or
whatever it is actually.
It is an educational programand I don't you didn't attend

(03:08:19):
one day with just for the travelplanners, but they're getting
certification now, so there arecertification programs going on.
So there's a lot of detailfocused on the programming.

Speaker 2 (03:08:28):
Now, that's great, that's clear for sure, and I
know how much time and effortwent into it, and one of the
things you'd highlighted to meand it made all the difference
for my presentation, there's noquestion, I know I started off
with this is that we had spokento seven or eight members and
had seven, eight hours worth ofconversations to get an
understanding of where they'reat with AI, what it is they want
to learn and what they know,and they were all so keen to

(03:08:49):
have a conversation, share theirinsights, and that, ultimately,
is what led at least certainlyfrom my instance, to having a
really engaging presentation.
But it's that community and thefact they were giving us the
feedback that we needed to hearto be helpful.
One of the things that came upduring the presentation was the
plans for next year, and so youknow we're having this
conversation now, a couple ofmonths after the event.

(03:09:09):
This episode will get globallistenership and that's why I
was so keen to have you on thisdiscussion so that, aside from
hearing all the amazinghighlights that they've just
heard, that they could learnmore about ETC, to be able to
connect with you, the team, andbe involved in future events.
But clearly, the events is justone part of being involved in
ETC, so tell everyone a littlebit about where you're headed

(03:09:32):
now, in mid 2025, going into2026.
What are some of the ETCinitiatives that people should
be aware of and what are theplans for the next big get
together?

Speaker 5 (03:09:41):
for a destination that's willing to collaborate.
But our big focus is oncreating an online community,
more robust online community.
I think that really needs tohappen and that requires a lot
of strategic thought and funding, because the community wants to
stay connected year round, andso we're using your session and

(03:10:03):
other sessions to start.
I mean, it's not a new idea,it's just that we haven't put it
into that, we haven't focusedon that.
So that is one of thedevelopments.
We have a new advisory councilrotating, so that's a whole
nother focus.
We go overseas for ourinternational mid-year planning
meeting with our advisorycouncil and once we pick the
destination, unlike someorganizations, we have to look

(03:10:24):
at pricing, and basicallypicking a destination three
years out is not the bestpricing policy for the rooms,
because we were dealing with anon-profit audience.
So there are a lot of factorsthat go into that.
Looking maybe at the west coast, and because we try to combine
and there's some very, veryforward-looking tourism

(03:10:44):
directors there that would beable to really grasp this type
of meeting.
So we'll you know, we'll youknow, we'll announce that down
the line.
We never announced it at theconference and I know that's
probably not the way you do it,but that is the way it happens
in this organization for thelast 20 years, you know, dan,
I'd like to just circle back andsaying the way you dealed your
session and when people werespeaking to you.

(03:11:06):
That's what we do with all ofour speakers.
We ask our audience to talk toyou, and so that does take time
too, but it's the commitment ofmy colleagues to do that and
your commitment to take the timeto carefully focus on this
audience.
We don't just bring in peopleto talk about things.
They have to relate to what ison the minds of the attendees.
So you zeroed in on a point ofwhy the program was successful.

(03:11:28):
It's because you took the timeand my colleagues I mean.
Well, yes, we strategicallypicked the people who were going
to talk to you, but they arewilling to contribute.

Speaker 2 (03:11:37):
Educationaltravel is the main website and the
membership information is allthere for you.
But what would you highlightfor someone that's considering
getting involved?
From everything they've heardfrom the people on this podcast,

(03:12:00):
now hearing from you, whatwould you like to share with
them if they're interested inbecoming a new member, or other
people that are saying, wait asecond, I actually need to get
back involved again?

Speaker 5 (03:12:08):
Well one, any new member.
It always gets channeled to meso I have a good.
That is one of my biggest jobsis to talk to anyone new that
comes.
So certainly with the telephonenumber 406-745-4800.
And basically it'll route to mefor newcomers.
But I want to stress that it'snot and I think this is an
important point it is a veryspecific niche market so it

(03:12:32):
works quite differently.
There's relationships built.
It takes a time to get intothis market.
I mean, they don't, you don'tget.
I always recommend to newcomersyou're not going to have
appointments and getting toursright away.
You've got to get to know thepeople, get involved with
programming, getting involved,getting FaceTime and delivering
expertise.
And it takes some time toconnect with the travel planners

(03:12:56):
.
But so I'd like to talk tosomeone ahead of time.
There are times where I counselsomeone that maybe it isn't the
market for them and sometimes Ireally feel it's absolutely the
market for them and it's.
People are looking for youngertravelers now.
They want to know some programsthat could align with the
university's mission in dealingwith that.
So we talk extensively and Ihave a white paper I wrote, I
think, with a former colleagueat Yale.

(03:13:19):
So those are helpful tips forpeople.
But I do think just a personalconversation is the best,
because people have differentquestions every time and I don't
want someone to come withoutunderstanding the concept.
And then I also have mycolleagues talk to them.
If it's strategically anothertour operator, if it's an
inbound operator or foreignoperator, I'll ask one of my

(03:13:40):
because our advisor councilrepresents all constituencies
I'll have them say well, that'spart of their responsibilities.
Can you talk with this personand give them an honest opinion,
because maybe they don't wantto hear it from me.
So I think, dan, I know it'sthe day of electronics and you
kind of click on this or that,but the personal conversations
at that point because you wereinvesting to come to a meeting

(03:14:02):
and people can become a memberwithout coming to the meeting.
But I do think that it's reallyimportant that FaceTime at the
meeting certainly.
And the other aspect of growingis we want to develop more of a
program for training for touroperators and destinations too.

Speaker 2 (03:14:17):
It's just been largely focused on travel
planners, but I think there's alot of education that they can
get as well benefit from andthat's why I wanted to make sure
that, hearing it directly fromyou, they can read what they
need to on the website tounderstand it.
But even just knowing that levelof care and attention that you
give to new members, there wasone thing, as you know, that we,

(03:14:40):
during the presentation, weintroduced this number.
I'll give it at the end foreveryone to be able to dial in,
because one of the things we'regoing to optimize towards for
next year and for anyone who'sgoing to just wants to call in
and find out some information tohelp balance out your time, so
that you know we can, we canhave some people just call in
the number and get theinformation that they need to
understand more about, etc.

(03:15:00):
So it'll be, it'll be fun tocontinue that.
But there's just a couple lastquestions.
I just wanted to ask you sincewe're finally getting this time
together and I'm so keen to havethis conversation Some of the
things you're looking forward towith the organization.
Obviously, the next event, whatare some of the things that you
clearly have a lot of energyand interest.
That's one thing that obviouslyyou and I both have in common.

Speaker 5 (03:15:35):
So what are some of the things that you're looking
forward to with the organizationover the next year or two?
Are there some other excitingdevelopments to your planning,
or what is it that keeps you somotivated and the team so
excited and enthused?
I think that it's much.
I'd like to see it reach itsfull potential.
In other words, I don't thinkwe're touching all of the
organizations, the nonprofitorganizations that are doing
travel and this realproliferation of them now.
I mean you see it popping upeverywhere.
So, connecting to the culturalheritage community, connecting
to the non-traditional studyabroad, these are things that

(03:15:56):
are really exciting and reachingout.
And we have gotten in the lastcouple of weeks I've gotten more
calls from people I've neverhad at the conference, asking
about the conference for nextyear.
So I don't know.
You know that's really excitingto me too to get new people,
new blood and I, but we have tokeep, we have to cap the numbers
.
I mean it's not trying to build, we're not looking at numbers,

(03:16:17):
we're looking at quality andcontent.
So, and appropriate people.
So developing more profiles andgetting better at the profiling
of the people that are comingand making sure that it's really
the place to be for certaincompanies and so, yes, we invite
everyone.
But it's great to know that wecould get some new aspects, I

(03:16:39):
think the younger looking atwho's going to be traveling on
these programs and looking atreally making them more
transformational in theleadership and the quality of
the trips, making them moretransformational in the
leadership and the quality ofthe trips I think that's great.
Helping my colleagues reallyextend this concept to their
upper management, that travel isnot just a little job or it's
an affinity type thing and thatit really is impacting their

(03:17:00):
alumni and significantly theirdonor development.
I think that's a big issue andreally taking that certification
program to its full extent, Imean in a sense.
So these are things beyond theconference that really will
drive more participation for thenonprofits and if the
nonprofits are there, the touroperators will be there and so
will the destinations, becausethis really truly is unique in

(03:17:23):
the industry.
There's not another programlike that for the nonprofits and
travel, and I would love to seethem take over the leadership
role that they had back in the70s and 80s of educational
travel.
They're the ones that broughtthe you know, the lecturers to
the ships and the faculty, andnow that's just commonplace.
So where are they going to leadnext?

(03:17:44):
And where they're going to leadnext is in the transformational
aspects of curating a reallyreally adult lifelong learning
travel program.

Speaker 2 (03:17:52):
Yeah, no, that's so exciting and you know, obviously
it's been wonderful to meet theteam and to get to know you,
and I'm certainly thrilled aboutthe prospect of coming back
again next year, wherever thatmay be.
Consider me signed up for it,and I definitely want, over the
course of that time, to stayconnected to you and the
community and continue toprofile some of the exciting

(03:18:13):
developments that you have onand clearly just stay in touch,
because one of the things thatwe just started our conversation
was is that Mara just got backfrom Bhutan and so you're such
an avid traveler.
Today you just spent threeweeks in Bhutan and I know
you're going to be publishing anarticle about this, so you're
still just very much in thisspace and I just love to keep up
with you on the trends that arehappening with travel from your

(03:18:34):
perspective.
And so, yeah, sincere thank youfor me for the invitation to
the conference, for making thetime to be here for this podcast
and doing this specialspotlight episode together.
Amara, it's been great gettingto know you and I certainly look
forward to keeping in touch andI wish you and the team every
success in the year ahead.

Speaker 5 (03:18:50):
And I want to thank you, dan, because the energy you
exuded throughout theconference just was infectious.
I mean, it was an amazingopportunity to meet you in
person.
I got that drip when we weretalking, but and as far as a
traveler, when are you in youroffice, I mean?
But thank you very much forinviting me.
I hope that some of thecomments were helpful to people
and certainly I will follow upwhenever anyone comes our way.

Speaker 2 (03:19:13):
Thanks so much for joining us for this latest event
spotlight of travel trends.
I really hope you enjoyed allof these conversations recorded
live from the ETC conference inMobile, alabama.
It was a really special event.
It was a privilege to be a partof and I'm thrilled to have
been invited back next year.
So thanks to everyone that madethe effort to speak with me,
connect with me, all of theguests on the show.

(03:19:34):
Special thanks, of course, toMara and the team for having
built such an impressivecommunity around travel and
nonprofits and I look forward toseeing your continued growth
and finding out exactly wherenext year's conference is going
to be.
And for those of you who havenow discovered the GuestOS app
and the phone number, we'll makesure that's included so you can

(03:19:55):
call in and learn moreinformation about ETC.
But definitely check outeducationaltraveltravel for more
information to become a memberor get involved in future events
.
Thanks again for joining us andlook forward to having you on
the next episode of TravelTrends.
Until next time time, safetravels.

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