How a Global Tour Operator Masters River Cruising with Avalon Waterways

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
When I first came into the brand, there was a lot
of feeling that we were all thesame and that has changed so
much, which I'm so grateful forthat each line's found their
unique personality and positionand we're not all the same.
Yes, the ships are all the samewidth in general and the same
length because in order to gothrough the locks they have to
be, but how you use that and howyou make your guests feel can

(00:26):
and is different with everybody.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hello everyone and welcome back to Travel Trends.
This is your host, danChristian, and today we are
wrapping up our deep dive intothe world of river cruises and
speaking to the president ofAvalon, pam Hoffey.
Now, this series was brought tous by our friends over at
Captio, which, as you heard, ourfirst episode was with the
founder, ragnar, as we set thestage for this category, and

(00:50):
then we had a fascinatingconversation with Steve Spivak
from Tauk, and then last weekwith Lisa McCaskill from Scenic,
and I just wanted to say thanksagain to the team at Captio,
and if you're looking for themost modern travel technology
solution for multi-dayexperiences, whether it's from
cabins to train cars, then theyare the ones to speak to.
They have developed the mostrobust, unified, scalable

(01:14):
solution on the market, and Idefinitely encourage you to
check out our friends over atCaptio K-A-P-T-I-Ocom.
Now.
One other major development iswe have just announced our AI
summit for 2025, which isOctober 28th and 29th.
Early bird tickets are justgoing live, so be sure to
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(01:34):
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think everyone knows this by now.
But we do post all of our clipsand highlights on our social
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to check those out at TravelTrends Podcast for highlights

(01:55):
from today's conversation withPam Hoffey.
We'll be right back.
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And now back to the show.
Now, just to set the stage forthis conversation with Pam, I
was very keen to have Avalon aspart of this series, since they
are part of the Globus family ofbrands and we heard from Steve,

(04:04):
who's the CMO, during ourguided touring series, and one
of the things that's reallyunique about their entrance into
the world of river cruising isthey created a new brand.
Now, as you heard from Tauch andfrom Scenic.
Those were brand extensions.
They were going from guidedtouring into river cruise and
then also into ocean in the caseof Scenic Whereas Avalon as

(04:24):
you'll hear from ourconversation with Pam today,
who's been an important part oftheir organization for many
years and then took over theRiver Cruise business they
created Avalon as a brand, andthat's what I really wanted to
dig into to understand why theycreated a new brand, how that
brand differentiates from theGlobus family of brands, and I
think our listeners will learn alot from this conversation.

(04:44):
Whether you are a traveladvisor looking to sell these
amazing experiences or atraveler looking to book your
next trip, I think you'll findtoday's conversation really
interesting.
So, on that note, let's bringin Pam Hoffey, the president of
Avalon.
Welcome, pam, thanks so muchfor joining us.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Well, thank you for having me.
I was really excited to havethis chance to chat with you.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
Absolutely.
I've been so looking forward tobringing this river cruise
series together, and especiallygiven you know, your background
in this space is so impressiveand I think people got a good
sense of that from theintroduction.
But I would love for you to beable to illuminate to all of our
listeners your journey into thetravel industry, because you've
spent so much time honing yourexpertise in river cruise.

(05:25):
But what got you into traveland tourism in the first place?

Speaker 1 (05:28):
Well, it's a funny story Actually.
Um, I was at the university ofColorado in Boulder, and I was
in the business school studyingeither marketing or finance.
At that point which is kind ofbig differences I wasn't sure
which direction I wanted to go,and I knew that I desperately
wanted to go on this programcalled Semester at Sea, which is

(05:48):
a college program where youtravel around the world on a
ship and take your coursesduring the semester.
While you're 100 days travelingaround the world, my parents
said no, that they wouldn't payfor it, and they said it was too
expensive.
So I set out to figure out howto do it, and I happened to meet

(06:11):
a girl one night in a bar, ofcourse who told me that she had
a semester at sea t-shirt on,and so I started talking to her
about it.
She said well, actually Iworked on that ship.
It's an internship in thetourism department, which was
part of the business school thatI was in.
And so she said if you take thetourism classes, you can get an
internship working on theSemester at Sea ship.

(06:32):
So that's what I did.
So that's how it all started,and ended up becoming the shore
excursion manager for the cruiseline that did the summers, so
semester at sea, operated theship for the two semesters and
then in between there was acruise line that offered cruises
on that ship.
So I was there for seven years,sailed on semester at sea a few

(06:56):
times, which was, you know, theend goal in the beginning was to
get to go on semester at seaand then eventually became
director of operations for thatcruise line, decided I wanted to
come back to Colorado, which iswhere I'm from, and found the
Globus family of brands, which,honestly, was the best thing

(07:17):
that could have happened for me.
I've been here 22 years now andit's a great company and
Avalon's one of the brands inthe company.
And so you know my cruisebackground is not originally
what got me hired.
It was to manage the productteam and they were looking for
somebody who had experienceoutside of Europe and because

(07:38):
all of our Europe products doneby our office there and that was
what Semester at Sea had takenme to was all over the world,
not really to Europe, becausethey always focused on kind of
off the beaten path places thatyou weren't necessarily going to
travel on your own.
And then when Avalon decided toexpand into Asia, that was my

(07:59):
first entry into Avalon as Iworked on building the ships
that we had on the Mekong andeventually Myanmar and the India
program and the South America,so everything other than Europe
and it was kind of natural, withmy cruise background and that
experience when my predecessorretired to take this role with
Avalon.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
You know, I think that's really fascinating
because we had our series onguided touring and of course, we
had your colleague Steve, theCMO from Globus, as part of that
and we're doing River Cruisenow and obviously bringing you
into the conversation and Ithink we got a great
understanding of many of ourlisteners would have heard Steve
talking about Globus and that'swhy I was so keen to have you
on, but not only because yourepresent Avalon and part of the

(08:41):
Globus family, but specificallybecause your background is on
the operations side.
Like you came up in the productand operations side of the
business and I think some of ourlisteners would have heard me
mention that with some of theother executives I was speaking
to, because I find that sofascinating, that someone's
journey.
Clearly you have a greatpassion for travel and a great
interest, but you've honed thatskill over an extended period of

(09:02):
time to hold the you know, holdthe president title and the
role that you have, and that'swhy I'm so thrilled to be able
to speak to you in that capacitybut also understand your
journey.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
It is sometimes unusual to have somebody come up
through operations and end upin this role, and I think it
gives me a lot of insight to thedetails and I probably focus
more on the little details thanmaybe I should as the president
of the company, but it's what Ireally enjoy and I think they're
the small things that make adifference to our travelers.

(09:34):
And so you know I love havingthat background.
And then you know I had tolearn more of the sales sales
side and the strategic thinking,because you know, because
operations is where I came fromin product planning.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, for sure.
And the one thing I think willbe helpful for all of our
listeners they know theconnection with Globus, but tell
us a little bit about thehistory and background on Avalon
Waterways and how the companyitself was established and how
it became part of the Globusfamily of brands.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
Sure.
So Avalon is one of the threebrands of the family.
So for those who don't knowGlobus, I'll just mention it's
almost 100-year-old touroperator, so with incredible
roots in travel and inperfecting land vacations and
land journeys.
And so it was back in 2003where the idea of Avalon

(10:28):
Waterways came about.
So we had been selling rivercruising as part of our
vacations with Globus, using apartner, and it was just very
clear that this style of travelwas emerging.
It was something that we coulddo ourselves and do it a little
bit differently than thatpartner that we were using, and

(10:48):
Avalon Waterways was born.
So 2004 was the first yearoperating with one ship, and
then has grown now to 16 shipsin Europe and a ship on the
Mekong, and then we operate withpartners on the Nile and on the
Amazon rivers.

(11:09):
So you know pretty much everyriver in Europe we are covering,
and the rest of the world too.
So it absolutely was the rightdecision back in 2003 to go out
and branch out on our own sothat we could do something a
little bit differently than whatyou know was in the market at
that point in time.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
Well, I'm glad you explained that connection, that
the brand was sort of created tobe part of the group and had a
standalone brand identity asAvalon.
So tell us a little bit abouthow you came to that
determination, Because one ofthe things I'm keen to ask you,
Pam, is just how complimentaryguided touring is with River
Cruise, which is why we're doingthese kind of back-to-back,
because, as some of ourlisteners have heard, I mean, a

(11:51):
number of companies operate inboth spaces and really a
consumer, as you well know, willtake a guided tour for a week
and then they'll take a RiverCruise, even if it's different
companies, because they're bothcomplimentary experiences.
So tell us a little bit abouthow you decided that it's not
Globus as a brand for the rivercruise.
You came up with Avalon, and soand tell us a little bit about
how that brand was established,because I'm keen to know some of

(12:13):
the unique characteristicsabout Avalon that makes it so
special.
But also but just before we dothat, I'd love to know how you
see it complimenting Globus.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
So why a new brand?
Was probably mostly about thestandards of river cruising and
the standard that we wanted torepresent, and Avalon is a
little bit of a step aboveGlobus in terms of the quality
and the standards, so that wasreally the core reason to have a
different brand was in order tomeet the needs of the river

(12:46):
cruise market.
In reality, the river cruisemarket just skews a little bit
higher end and you know I'm notdenigrating the Globus brand by
saying that, because Globus iscertainly a great quality
product.
It's just that Avalon is justthat notch above.
So that was one of the one ofthe core reasons to have a
different brand and, in terms ofyou know what makes Avalon

(13:07):
different and the things thatreally were, why establish our
own brand, those have honestlyevolved over the years and you
know I wasn't part of theinitial.
I was with the company but Iwasn't part of the initial group
developing Avalon.
You know initial groupdeveloping Avalon.
You know the idea was for sureto build ships that were better.

(13:27):
So at the time, you know twodecks of rooms with French
balconies didn't exist and sothat was the first you know kind
of fleet that Avalon have,which we don't have anymore.
We've let all of those go infavor of what is now the big
differentiator for Avalon, whichis our suite class ships.

(13:48):
So our panorama class and ouraward-winning panorama suites,
which I think is one of thebiggest differentiators of
Avalon and the rest of theindustry is how we created this
special room that we have.
This special room that we haveand beyond that, you know, the

(14:09):
idea of doing land a little bitdifferently, and that also has
evolved over the 20 years.
It's now a lot about choice,and so really being experts in
land, you know, was adifferentiator for us still is
in how we work with communitiesto create the excursions that we
offer.
And you know, as I said, that'sevolved over the 20 years and
so many other things have, youknow, come up over those years.

(14:33):
That kind of create thedifferentiators.
Our active and discovery cruises, which launched in 2017, were
in response to trends in themarket and what people were
looking for.
People weren't looking for justthat walking tour of the city
to go in the market and whatpeople were looking for.
People weren't looking for justthat walking tour of the city
to go see the church.
They were looking for immersiveconnections with destinations,

(14:54):
seeing them in a different way,and I think that has gone so
much in that the travel industryand the needs of travelers has
gone so much in that direction.
We were probably early in 2017for that and now it's really
full steam with that style.
How we do dining is alsodifferent, with you know,

(15:17):
regional cuisine, local beersand wines and just being
flexible.
And the style of how we operateis also a big differentiator
for Avalon this kind of relaxed,luxury feel.
Every river cruise line isdifferent.
I think that's something thatwhen I first came into the brand
, there was a lot of feelingthat we were all the same and

(15:40):
that has changed so much, whichI'm so grateful for, that each
line's found their uniquepersonality and position and
we're not all the same.
Yes, the ships are all the samewidth in general and the same
length, because in order to gothrough the locks they have to
be, but how you use that and howyou make your guests feel can
and is different with every line.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yeah, and I definitely want to dive into
that because, as you, with the16 ships, the bulk of the fleet,
of course, is in Europe, but,as you mentioned, you've
expanded to Africa and SouthAmerica and to Asia, and that
obviously is in response totraveler interest within river
cruising itself.
The people love the experienceof river cruising and then they
want to find other rivers totravel on and so you've expanded

(16:23):
for all the right reasons.
But Europe is obviously a coremarket for you and exactly what
you just described was somethingthat really stood out to me as
I came to understand that when Iwas working with Travel
Corporation and specificallyUniworld which interestingly, of
course, is that next level, asyou highlighted, because Steve
was telling us about Globusbeing the first class holidays

(16:44):
and then you've got thiselevated luxury with Avalon, so
and similar, I guess, with anInsight, vacations to a Uniworld
trip, and so what appeals to alot of people for sure, when
you've got a ship that is, youknow, 100, 130 people, you know
there's an exclusivity, there's,you know, incredible access to,
to these cities and towns thatyou have the privilege to, to

(17:08):
access on a, on a river that you, you wouldn't any other way.
So tell us, if you wouldn't mind.
This is the key thing for methat I certainly learned working
with uh stanley and bretttolman from for a number of
years was selling the difference.
So some of our listeners haveheard me talk about so the key
thing I wanted to ask you isexactly that.
Is that what sets Avalon apartfrom other river cruise

(17:29):
companies?

Speaker 1 (17:30):
Yeah, so one of the key differentiators is our
panorama suites.
So I want to talk about those alittle bit, because they really
are different and unique.
Different and unique.

(17:50):
It was, I guess, around 2010,and I was in this meeting when
cruise lines were entering themarket and adding exterior
balconies to river cruise ships,because in ocean, obviously,
balconies are very popular it'swhat most people want and want
to travel with and so some newentrants were coming into river
and they were putting exteriorbalconies on their ships, and so
it was, I think, an all daymeeting with the same slide up

(18:14):
the entire day debating whetheror not balconies were the right
thing to do for river cruising,and our salespeople were saying
we have to have balconies.
We're going to go out ofbusiness if we don't have
balconies to our ships and ouroperations.
People said, well, balconiesdon't make sense in river
cruising because the ships canonly be a certain width.
If you add an exterior balcony,you're taking interior space

(18:38):
from the room, and so at thetime we had our fleet was all
French balconies and the roomswere 172 square feet, and so the
idea was what could we do thatcreates a balcony without taking
the exterior space and givingour guests the best of both
worlds.
And so that was when theoperations team went away.

(19:00):
We made the commitment thatbalconies were not the right
thing to do.
But how can we make what wehave the best experience where
you have the feeling of abalcony but you have the
interior space.
And that's how the PanoramaSuite was born, which is now
consistently every single one ofour ships is this class of
ships, with two decks of thistype of cabin.
So, to describe it to people whomaybe haven't seen it, it has

(19:24):
an 11,.
The entire wall is glass.
So 11 feet wide, wall to wall,floor to ceiling, glass window.
So it is not just a Frenchbalcony.
When people say, oh, so it's aFrench balcony, no, it goes way
beyond the traditional Frenchbalcony and it's three panels
and two of those panels open.
So the opening is actuallyseven feet wide and we put a

(19:46):
seating area.
So there's a love seat and atable and a chair there.
The table raises and lowers soyou can use it for cocktails,
you can use it for dining, youcan use it to work on if you
want, even though there is awork desk in the room as well.
So you can open that window, theseven feet, and have a balcony
experience when you want it, butwhen you don't want it, you

(20:08):
have the full use of the 200square feet in the room, and
making that room just that muchbigger also allowed us, by not
having the exterior balcony, wewere able to turn the beds to
face the view, which is anothersignature of the Avalon Panorama
Suite, and it's something thatwe still are shocked that more
people haven't replicated,because it's a game changer to

(20:30):
have your bed turned to face theview.
It means that you're not lookingover your partner to look out
of the window.
You wake up and you have theview, and that's what river
cruising is known for is theseincredible views.
It's constantly changing viewsand so you know I sleep with the
curtains open so I can see outand see the passing, you know

(20:52):
what's passing in the nighttimeand wake up to those incredible
views.
It also allowed us to make abigger bathroom, which cruise
ship bathrooms are not necessary.
Especially showers are notknown for their large size, and
with this turning of the bed toface the view, we actually found
we could angle that wall just alittle bit and it created a

(21:16):
full size shower, the size thatmany people have at home, so a
very large shower and marblebathrooms.
I think we're one of the onlycruise lines who puts photos of
their bathrooms on their website, because they're actually
beloved by our guests.
You know they are reallyluxurious.
So you know, I know I talked along time about one

(21:37):
differentiator.
I know I talked a long timeabout one differentiator, but it
really is a big one.
The other differences areAvalon Choice Excursion Program
and I had mentioned that thatwas kind of an evolution and
something that we just sawguests looking for different

(21:57):
experiences and so on any givenday, we have multiple different
choices of excursions and we canwe categorize them into three
categories.
So there's the classicsightseeing, which is going to
see the must-see sites of thedestination with a local guide.
So that might be a walking tour.
It might be a coach tour ifthat's needed to get to the, to
the must-see destinations.
It's typically quite often awalking tour.

(22:19):
And then we offer activeexcursions and those can be
things like hikes, even kayakingand canoeing, bike rides, lots
of different bike rides, soseeing your destination in an
active way.
And then the last option arediscovery choices, which you
know really speak to that trendtoward immersive travel and

(22:42):
wanting to have experiences thatare really local.
So those can be things likepainting classes, cooking
classes, meeting with awinemaker, so all sorts of
different, really immersiveexperiences.
There are a lot more in termsof differentiators, but I feel
like I'm hogging theconversation.
You want me to keep going.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah, well, there's one specific one I wanted to ask
you about, and that's cuisine,I think one of the things that
certainly people look for on acruise.
You always hear people talkabout cruises.
They talk about food, but it'sunique when it comes to river
cruising, and I want to makesure I ask this in the context
for the listeners that are bothon the travel agent side, as
well as consumers and people whomight be considering an Avalon

(23:23):
trip or kind of weighing upriver cruises, and especially
some of the people that might benew to river cruising and I do
have some questions for you onthat as well, too, pam.
Things that has stood out to meis just how important it is for
river cruises to be able tocustomize the cuisine based on
the destination that they'retraveling to and being able to

(23:43):
visit local markets and thechefs, being able to source
local food experiences, whichyou know when you're new to a
river cruising, that's.
You know that's not somethingthat exists on ocean cruise, for
example, given the scale, butgiven the size of the groups on
a river cruise and the abilityto provide a lot more
personalization and customizedoptions, I wanted to hear a
little bit more about thecuisine, because I know what

(24:04):
I've read on your website inpreparing for our conversation
today.
But I would love if youwouldn't mind taking us through
what cuisine looks like on thedifferent ships and if you
wouldn't mind highlighting howthat differs between Europe and,
say, asia or South America.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
Well, you know, to me , food is one of the main
reasons that I travel.
I think for a lot of people,you know, tasting the local
cuisine is one of the mostexciting parts of traveling
because it's, you know, goingoutside of what you're normally
doing and trying the things thatthat place is famous for.
So to have a cruise where youaren't taking advantage of that,

(24:40):
I think would be a loss for alot of people if they felt like
they weren't getting to tastelocal things and have that
experience.
And so you know that's reallythe concept behind Avalon's
menus.
On every single itinerary themenus are different and they
reflect and change based on asyou're traveling, you know, down
the river, into newdestinations, new countries, new

(25:03):
regions, because there'sregional cuisine within
countries, obviously, and so themenu for that day reflects that
.
And so there are lunchspecialties and dinner.
That's what the menu offers arethe things that the region's
local famous for.
So the chefs actually go ashoreand buy the bread that is on

(25:25):
the breakfast and lunch buffetin order to taste things that
were actually produced locally.
We do bake some of our bread onboard, but the reality is we
felt like this would be a betterexperience for our guests to go
to local bakeries and buy localproducts and have different
tastes throughout the week thanjust having the same things that

(25:48):
our you know pastry chef wouldbake on board.
So that's one of the things ourchefs also go and buy you know,
seasonal produce and seasonalitems.
For example, they go to themarket in Budapest and buy the
langos there, which are thoselittle fried pastries that have
the different they're savory andthey have different toppings on

(26:08):
them.
So they go and buy those.
They buy local sausages, sobringing things that you would
have tasted had you gone to arestaurant.
You would have it on board ourship.
So that's, to me, a reallyimportant differentiator.
We also do have the wine rotatein the same way.

(26:30):
So our wine menus, we onlyserve European wines, and we
actually have a wine every nightfrom your region that you're
sailing in.
Unless you're in Holland, wedon't do Dutch wines, and people
who've had Dutch wines probablyknow why we don't do that.
Everywhere else, though, we'reusing regional wines I'm talking

(26:52):
about in Europe in particular,so that you get a taste of, you
know, some really special winesthat you're not likely to find
in your wine shop at home, be itin North America, australia,
wherever you may be living, sotasting these, these special
wines.
So in addition to that, we haveall of your comfort favorites.
So if you can't find anything,our chefs are on our menu.

(27:15):
During the day we have a burgerand Caesar salads.
At lunch, for dinner we havefilet mignon chicken salmon.
So you know, if you don't wantto try the regional offerings,
there's always somethingfamiliar for everyone.
But you know beyond just whatour menus are like.
I think a real differentiatorfor Avalon is the flexibility

(27:35):
that we give our guests.
So river cruising in the pastwas always you have to go to
dinner at seven o'clock and ifyou aren't there at seven, when
you come in and some lines isstill this way from what I hear
if you come in at 745, andthey're on main courses, that's
where you start, is on your maincourse.
But we really believe thatpeople you know may want to

(27:57):
linger in the bar and haveanother drink, they may want to
go for a walk before dinner,whatever it may be, and so our
flex dining allows you to comeanytime between seven and eight
30 to dinner.
We added a lot of tables fortwo.
I you know it's funny to me whenI hear people say that one of
the biggest worries about goingon a cruise is that you might

(28:18):
have to sit with somebody youdon't like for dinner, and so we
wanted to make it that peoplecould just sit as a couple, if
they want, or on their own ifthey want, or with their small
group, whatever it may be.
We do find that most people youknow make friends and that's a
big part of river cruising alsoand they find people that
they're going to sit with andthen alternative dining.

(28:39):
So we do have a small platesoption in our Panorama Bistro,
which is in our lounge, andthere's outside seating there so
you can have dinner outside.
We have a built-in grill on allof our ships where we do
lunches and even dinners duringthe cruise.
So really trying to offer ahuge amount of variety and local

(29:02):
taste is kind of the key to ourculinary program.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
Well, you bring up a really interesting point there
and I just wanted to share thiswith our audience and ask you
another question on this topic.
Pam, around you know solotravelers, couples, the types of
people that take a river cruisebecause, for those that are
uninitiated, I'll give an exactexample.
My father-in-law recently wenton a river cruise and
unfortunately, my mother-in-lawpassed away a couple of years
ago and he was somewhat hesitantto go on his own, but he's been

(29:27):
committed to doing the travelthat they were planning to do
together and full credit to himfor doing that and obviously, he
was nervous about going.
But the first night a groupinvited him to join him at his
table and he shared his storyand they had a toast to her and
he ended up having dinner withthem every night on the trip and
just had the most incredibletime.
And this is where I'm.
I'm sharing that because Ithink it's important for

(29:49):
listeners.
I mean, I'm such a big advocatefor travel and actually I
genuinely love river cruising, Ilove guided traveling, I love
river cruising like those aretwo for me that I I that I could
lead a life just going back andforth between those two
experiences.
But what I wanted to ask you isthat when you think about the
type of people that book a rivercruise, especially first timers
, give us a bit of an overviewof your customer profile.

(30:12):
And Steve did a great job ofthat with Globus kind of talking
about the 50 plus crowd andjust giving everyone kind of an
idea of what to expect on aGlobus.
Kind of talking about the, youknow, the 50 plus crowd and just
giving everyone kind of an ideaof what to expect like on a
Globus trip.
And I'd love for you to do thesame with Avalon, If you were
kind of just give us a highlightof you know who are the types
of people that are attracted todoing a river cruise.
So if you were to, if you and Iwere walking into that
restaurant together right now inour first night, give us an

(30:33):
idea of who we might meet, wherethey're from, and a little bit
of background, so that peoplecan get an idea of what to
expect.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
Well, I would say one of the biggest misconceptions
in river cruising is that it'sfor old people and I'll just put
that out there very bluntly,because that's what you hear all
the time is oh, river cruising,and I think that's changing a
lot, that perception.
It's changing for a good reason, because the reality is also

(31:03):
changing.
The age on river cruises isdropping.
Especially post-pandemic hasdropped quite a bit.
It is still I mean, our coremarket is still the baby boomer.
It has shifted to being theyounger baby boomer versus the
older baby boomer and we'reseeing a huge influx of Gen X

(31:23):
coming into river.
I think that coming out of COVIDreally pushed a lot of people
to try river cruising for thefirst time who maybe had this
mindset that it wouldn't be forthem.
And you know, this initial fearof getting back on a cruise
ship, I do think, shiftedbusiness toward river in the

(31:46):
beginning, because there wasthis fear of being out at sea,
not being able to come back intoport.
You know all of these concernsof going out on a big ship with,
you know, thousands of people.
So let's try a river cruise,let's try a small ship, let's
try a ship that is in inlandwaterways, so you know they
can't be told no, you can't comeinto port, and we had a lot of

(32:08):
new travelers come into rivercruising and that brought the
ages down substantially.
So, like I said, the babyboomer is still the core market,
with big shifts adding mostlyyounger baby boomer, gen X and
even seeing millennials comeinto river cruising.
I think a lot of that has to dowith why we also see the shift

(32:30):
toward needing a variety ofexcursions and flexibility,
because these generations arelooking for that a little bit
more than what maybe my parentsneeded or wanted in travel.
There is a big shift to howpeople are traveling.
I mean, traditionally it hasbeen you go with your partner.
We do something called the wishlist survey every year and we

(32:53):
ask people how they plan totravel, who they plan to travel
with, and we've definitely seena shift to more people.
Saying it's still couples withmy partner is the number one
answer, but a lot more shifttowards traveling with a group
of family and friends, whichriver cruising is perfect for,
especially when there arechoices of excursions because
everybody can go and do theirown thing that interests them

(33:15):
during the day.
I mean one of the key barriers,I think, to planning a group
travel trip is the person whohas to plan all of it right and
make everyone happy.
But a river cruise is so easyin that respect because the
dining's all taken care of, theexcursions are there, people can
pick and choose within thegroup what they want to do, and
then you come together back onthe ship in the evening, you

(33:37):
know for dinner, you come backfor lunch, whatever it may be,
and so you get your groupexperience.
But everybody can be themselvesat the same time.
And then the other shift istowards solo travel, and Avalon
really does well with that,probably because we have a great
offer for solo travelers thatwe waive the single supplement
on our cruises.

(33:58):
In Europe it is capacitycontrolled, it is the number one
actually, and on the Mekongalso it's the number one fastest
revenue managed sold out offerthat we have.
But what a wonderful thing tobe able to travel as a solo
without paying the singlesupplement.
Our single supplement is prettyreasonable.
It's 55% in in under normalcircumstances, but to have that

(34:21):
waived as a promotional offer Ithink is one of the reasons that
we attract a lot of solotravelers.
And you know you talked aboutguided guided land tours as well
as river cruising.
They're both really perfect forsolo travelers.
And you know, just speaking frommy own experience, I am married
but I travel on river cruisesall the time by myself and not

(34:41):
always just hosting, not alwayshosting a group or something.
I just go to experience theship and talk to our guests and
river cruising there's alwayssomebody who will invite you to
eat with them, like youmentioned.
You know the experience thatyour father had.
There's always somebody who'sgoing to invite you to sit with

(35:02):
them if they see you on your own.
You can also choose to eat onyour own if you want to.
I mean, sometimes I just wantto eat by myself and so I
usually don't go to the diningroom for that.
I'll go to the Panorama Bistroand sit outside.
And land vacations are verysimilar in that respect.
You always find like mindedpeople who you want to get to
know and who have have similarinterests.

(35:23):
On our excursions the fact thatwe have choices on Avalon,
you're going to meet people whoalso were interested in going to
the cooking class, for example,so it's a very easy way to make
friends.
I mean, I've been on big shipcruises by myself, also for work
, and I could not see anybody Iknew all day and you know you

(35:45):
don't get invited to sit withpeople at dinner.
It's a very differentexperience, I would say, to go
on a big ship, you know 3,000passenger ship on your own, and
I think that's why rivercruising and land vacations are
so popular for solo travelers.

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And now back to the show isthat people will travel to

(39:23):
destinations that they're morefamiliar with or they feel more
comfortable traveling to, andthey gradually get out of their
comfort zone.
But that's also something thatseems to have changed that,
rather than necessarily going toEurope first and then going to
South America, some people mayjust book the trip to Egypt
because they just always wantedto do a river cruise and they've
always wanted to go to Egypt.
So what I'm keen to know is howthe destinations that you have

(39:44):
introduced, how you'veintentionally rolled them out,
and if is there an instancewhere you are seeing that you
know you're expanding yourportfolio based on repeat
business?
People want to continuetraveling with Avalon, so they
want to.
You know new ships, new rivers,new countries is that part of
what's driving it?
But also, when new customersare entering into the river

(40:05):
cruise segment?
Are you seeing people justjumping right into some of those
new itineraries as opposed togoing through a graduated
process?
So tell us a little bit aboutthe destinations.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
And also too, if you wouldn't mind highlighting,
typically the choice is theRhine or the Danube, which is,
you know, has been that waysince the beginning of river
cruising.
Most likely, I think it'sbecause of the destinations that
you visit on those, the kind ofbreadth of different countries,
and it's probably the mosttraditional.

(40:44):
And it's probably the mosttraditional and I used air
quotes that people can't see,since this is a podcast when I
said that of river cruisedestinations.
So it's what you think of withthe river cruise.
You think of sailing pastcastles, vineyards, climbing up

(41:12):
a hillside, going through scenicvalleys, major cities and
charming, halfed, you know,towns and villages.
So it's everything people thinkabout with river cruising on
those two rivers.
So they are definitely ourbiggest volume producers still,
and kind of shift year over year, the last few years it's been
the Rhine more than the Danubein terms of you know where the
majority of our volume is comingfrom, or our highest volume, I
guess I should say.

(41:32):
I think a new generation ofriver cruiser is not necessarily
picking that as their firstriver cruise, so we're seeing a
little bit of a shift.
You would think that the lowerDanube, which you know we start
in Budapest and sail toBucharest, so to Romania.
So you go through Croatia,bulgaria, serbia and Romania on

(41:55):
that itinerary.
You would think that that wouldbe the most seasoned of river
cruisers.
That it's.
You know.
You've been on the Rhine,you've been on the Danube,
you've been to France, so youpick that.
It's interesting how manypeople it's their first time
river cruise and I think it'skind of the more well-traveled
river cruisers.
So somebody who's traveled alot, and maybe they traveled a

(42:16):
lot on their own, but going tothose destinations on your own
is a little bit more challenging.
So we do see that as aninteresting entry point to river
for some people.
And then they find they likethe style and that it's not, you
know, inflexible and you knowthat some of the maybe the
misconceptions they had aboutriver cruising and then they go

(42:38):
and experience otherdestinations.
In terms of year over yeargrowth, france has kind of
consistently been a top producerthere for us and it's one of
the reasons that we did just adda new destination.
So in 2025, we launched our newitinerary on the Garonne and

(42:59):
Dordogne rivers, sailing inBordeaux.
So that's absolutely fromfeedback.
From our wish list survey thatI mentioned, france always comes
back as the number onedestination that people want to
go to next, and we see absolutegrowth in that.
And then the other newdestination that we added for

(43:22):
our repeat travelers is theDouro River in Portugal, and
that one sells out the fastest.
So there are lots of differentlevers in all of this.
For example, 2025 wasessentially sold out until we
just recently added a couple ofdepartures in November, and 2026
is more than half sold at thispoint.

Speaker 2 (43:42):
Well, pam, I'm so enjoying this conversation with
you, and, given that you are thepresident of this incredible
river cruising brand, you have aunique perspective on the
trends that are shaping thisindustry, and so that is always
the theme of this podcast, andI'm keen to get your take from
your vantage point.
That is what has driven thisinterest in river cruising.
What are some of the big trendsthat you're focusing on?

Speaker 1 (44:04):
Well, I mean, in terms of what's driven the
growth, I think there are a lotof things.
There's the, you know, somewhatpost-pandemic, but I think even
leading into the pandemic,interest in more immersive
travel and, you know, reallyunique experiences, and that's
something that river cruisingdelivers.
Also, the idea of slower traveland you know the speed of, you

(44:28):
know, spending a little bit moretime in destinations and, you
know, doing it in a moresustainable way, I think, is
another, another trend thatriver cruising answers.
And then, honestly, the tradehas been a huge, huge advocate
for river cruising and westarted with the ASTA River
Cruise Expo in 2022.

(44:49):
And you know, we took one shipthat year, another ship the
second year.
The year after we had three,two ships, and last year we
actually had three ships at theASTA River Expo.
So the number of travel advisorswho've raised their hands and I
shouldn't only talk about ASTA,I'm going to talk about ACTA
too, because I'm guessing wehave some Canadian listeners

(45:10):
who've raised their hands andsaid they want to specialize in
river cruising and who come andinvest in themselves and their
education I think has been ahuge reason why this industry is
growing so much.
And so that's the ASTA RiverExpo.
We created, along with ACTA, aCanadian version of it.
It's run only by Avalon and wedo a cruise, so it's a little

(45:33):
bit different than what theAstor River Expo is, but that
again, you know a huge number ofCanadians this will be our
third year doing it who haveraised their hands and said they
want to specialize in rivercruising.
So you know there are a lot ofdifferent factors of consumer
interest and then also tradefocus that I think are really
playing toward that growth.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
Well, you mentioned two really important factors
there one, sustainability andthen also the trade.
Just to dive in a little bitmore into sustainability, I'd
love to hear some of theinitiatives that you have
underway, and the reason I askthat is because it certainly has
been an overarching trend postCOVID that people have taken
much more of an interest inreducing their footprint and the
impact they're having on theenvironment.

(46:13):
So what are some of theinitiatives that Avalon has
underway and as a reason whycustomers or travel agents would
choose Avalon?

Speaker 1 (46:21):
Sure.
Well, I still am not sure that,as an industry, people are
necessarily choosing a brand forsustainability widely.
I think it's something that isan expectation that as a company
, we're doing the right thing,and if we're not doing the right
thing, people would be upset byit.
But whether they're making thatchoice in the first place.
Yet and I say yet because Ithink it's coming and I think

(46:41):
there are more and more peoplewho are choosing based on that.
So it's the right thing to do.
And regardless of that, we'vemade huge initiatives.
So we have zero single useplastics on board other than in
the kitchen, where they'rerequired by health and safety
standards, but things like these.
You know little amenities inthe bathrooms.

(47:02):
With the L'Oan products, we nowhave those in pump bottles.
We no longer provide bottledwater.
Instead, we actually encourageguests to bring their own water
bottle, because a water bottlehas to be used something like
500 times.
There are a few differentstudies out there, but I think
the most agreed upon number is500 times before.

(47:25):
It's better than using bottledwater.
So asking guests to do that andwe have water bottles, if they
don't bring their own, that theycan use.
So those were some big changes.
We also moved toward much moredigital communication, which has
eliminated almost 90% of ourpaper use.
So, instead of providing mapsand port information and daily

(47:48):
newsletters on paper which, bythe way, I used to take a
picture of and then toss them inthe trash we realized there are
a lot of people who are doingthat and taking a picture of it.
So let's just deliver itdigitally to those people and
then somebody who wants itprinted we're certainly happy to
do, and that goes withbrochures also.
We used to produce hugebrochures and send them out to

(48:11):
our travel advisor partners.
We still do have a sellingguide is what we call our new
version.
It's smaller, it's for thetrade community.
It actually has the only callto action to it is to go see
your travel advisor and has anentire page dedicated to why to
use a travel advisor.
We also I'm trying to think ofother things because there's

(48:32):
been so much that's been done In2022, you know we are very much
committed to findingalternative fuel when it's
possible.
It's not really possible yetfor us.
So we do have a carbonfootprint and we partnered with
an organization called Trees forTravel that offsets the carbon

(48:53):
footprint.
It only takes two trees perguest on average for a one-week
cruise, and we take care of thatfor all of our guests and
donate those two trees on theirbehalf to offset the carbon
footprint of their crews.
There are quite a few otherthings.
Probably one of my favorite isour partnership with Landmine

(49:14):
Design, which is an organizationin Cambodia based right on the
border between Cambodia andThailand, and it's a community
that can't be farmed becauseit's a landmine village, and so
the people living there, andespecially the women living
there, are very much at risk forhuman trafficking because of
the lack of jobs and theproximity to Thailand.

(49:37):
And so a woman who's actuallyfrom Colorado, which is where
we're based in the US our USheadquarters are we're based in
Switzerland, actually, but wemet her because I'm here in the
US Our US headquarters are we'rebased in Switzerland, actually,
but we met her because I'm herein the US and she taught them
how to make jewelry, these women, how to make jewelry, and so it
started out as a trade showgift.

(49:58):
Instead of giving pens or othertchotchkes that people might
leave in their hotel room, wehad the women of Landmine make
little bracelets for us, and sothe assumption was, even if
somebody left it behind, whichthey probably wouldn't, because
they're beautiful also that itdid good in the purchase of it.
And so we started that andemployed 12 women the first year

(50:20):
.
With Landmine.
It's grown to about 26 womenthat are employed through the
orders that we make, becauserecently on board, for example,
we needed little bags for theearpieces that you use on the
sightseeing with the listeningdevices, and instead of just
ordering them, we decide we lookto see if the women from
landmine could sew them.
So so many things happening.

(50:41):
All of our ships have the greenaward, which is important.
You don't have the Green Award,you can't dock in Amsterdam.
So a lot of differentinitiatives that we have going.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
Yeah, that's great.
I appreciate sharing those andI certainly it's become that
much more meaningful to me and Iknow it has to so many
travelers, as more and moreexamples of companies that are
certainly doing the right thingand moving past some of the, I
guess, the initial phases ofshowing an interest to actually
making a meaningful difference.
And the other thing I wanted toask you about that trade and

(51:12):
B2C side and obviously,depending on how much you can
share on that, I mean I'mgenuinely curious to know.
Post-covid, certainly traveladvisors had this incredible
resurgence and we did a serieson that.
In season four of Travel Trends,we did a deep dive into travel
agencies and Flight Center hasbeen one of our sponsors and we
have seen a lot of interest fromtravel advisors in the Travel

(51:33):
Trends show because they're keento learn about different brands
, just like we're discussingtoday with Avalon, and so I know
how important travel agents areto businesses like Avalon and
Globus and that have relied onthe trade for many years.
But I know a lot of brands arealso really investing in their
B2C marketing brands likeIntrepid, of course, they're in
the adventure travel space andwhen we talked to James Thornton
he was highlighting just howmuch trade business is generated

(51:56):
from B2C marketing, and Icertainly remember that from all
my years at the TravelCorporation.
Literally half of the leadsthat we would generate from B2C,
like from consumer directmarketing, would convert with
trade partners.
And this is where being channelagnostic was very important to
our growth, because it wasn't azero-sum game where you're
trying to shift market sharefrom B2B to B2C.
I'm saying that that'sobviously something that you

(52:17):
know, but for all of ourlisteners, there always
sometimes tends to be a feelingof an adversarial position.
So I'm asking this question inthe spirit of where are you
seeing the growth?
Are you seeing the growth onB2B and B2C, and how do you see
those two channels complementingeach other?

Speaker 1 (52:34):
Well, I think that the reality is, customers will
book the way that they want tobook, and so we want to be able
to take them if they were tocall us directly.
But that's certainly not ourgoal.
Our goal in advertising is togrow Avalon Waterways and the
awareness of Avalon Waterways,and so marketing to consumers
that's the purpose of it, andour call to action is always to

(52:56):
see your travel advisor.
So you know, our goal withconsumer marketing is to drive
business to the trade.
The trade is our lifeblood.
The vast majority of ourbookings come through the trade
and so you know that is werecognize it's our
responsibility to build thedemand for Avalon for them, and
that's why we do that.
So this year, actually, tradegrowth is outpacing direct

(53:20):
growth.
It does change every year, butthis year, being 2025, the trade
is actually outperformingdirect.
So and we're totally happy withthat, it's not a competition
between the two.
It's about how do we grow ourbrand completely.
You know, all together.

Speaker 2 (53:34):
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marketing audit.
Now back to the show, andthere's another area I wanted to
ask you about too, and that istechnology, and we're having
this conversation.
It's near the middle of 2025,everyone's talking about AI, us
included, and obviously that'san important part of the
technology that's now availableto travel companies.

(56:21):
But when you think abouttechnology, I'm assuming that a
lot of the focus is on the guestexperience or on the
reservation platform.
What are you looking at interms of investing in technology
and where are you on thejourney with technology as an
organization?
Because I recognize most travelcompanies are not technology
companies.
They're travel companies firstand they're always trying to
develop their technology.
Where is Avalon in that regard?

Speaker 1 (56:44):
So we're part of the Globus family of brands, which
we've talked about, and so werely on the platform of the
Globus family of Brands for ourtechnology.
We've been in an interestingmode for the last couple of
years where we've been actuallydoing a global integration of
our technology.
So our offices, our sellingoffices in Australia, for
example, had a different sellingsystem, and so did the UK.

(57:07):
North America was all on one,and then the operating system in
Switzerland for Avalon was on adifferent system, and so we've
been going through this bigprocess of integrating all of
our systems, which seems alittle odd that it was
purposeful to have this set up.
It was, and now it's purposefulto not be in that position.

(57:27):
So that's all done, which is ahuge accomplishment, and now
it's okay.
What can we do better and howcan we improve?
So we just launched a brand newtravel advisor portal, which is
getting really great reviewsfrom the trade, and we're
certainly always looking for anyother feedback on that.
Our websites are constantlybeing looked at for usability,

(57:51):
to make them easy for consumersto navigate to find the choices
that we offer.
We're bringing in a new CRMthat's an exciting thing that's
coming which again will justhelp us in tracking our
customers, their behavior, andgetting that information back to
our trade partners, becausethat's the goal with the CRM is

(58:12):
to work together and, you know,help them to grow that business
with us.
So, and then the other bigproject that's underway is our
full customer journey, which youknow is kind of the most
important thing in my mind,although every single one of
these is important.
The most important thing in mymind, although every single one

(58:32):
of these is important.
We were one of the firstadopters of an on-trip app and
when we did it it was amazing.
It was probably 10 or 11 yearsago now the greatest, latest and
newest technology, and it's notthe latest and greatest and
newest technology anymore.
And we recognize it's a littlebit disjointed that the app
serves one purpose and then, ifyou want to go do something else
, it takes you outside of theapp to a different platform, and

(58:54):
we wanted to all be seamless.
So that project's underway too.
So so many things happening.
But a lot has been done for thetrade, especially with the new
advisor portal, all new trainingwith the GFOB University and
Avalon Waterway SpecialistProgram.
So a lot of things in place tohelp support them.
Because, as you said, the tradehas grown a lot since the

(59:17):
pandemic and a lot of newadvisors and at-home advisors,
which is a huge shift.
So finding ways for them towork very easily and to get the
education that they need it isreally important.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
Well, just hitting on the travel agent portal, which
I know is so important to traveladvisors, as you well aware,
you guys have invested in androlled that out.
I know that is something thatis often talked about as a
competitive advantage betweentravel brands, because travel
agents, as much as they love abrand, they want to make sure
you're easy to work with andeasy to book because, they're
trying to multitask and do somany things, so that's an

(59:50):
interesting call.
The other thing, obviously, whenyou talk about the app and you
think about the in-destinationexperience, that's obviously one
of the things that continues toevolve as you introduce new
destinations and we've beentalking about that.
You've highlighted how you'vereally grown this brand beyond
Europe to really become a globalriver cruising brand and, of
course, you operate even outsideof river cruising, if we think
about South America and theGalapagos.

(01:00:12):
So you've got all these newdestinations and different
itineraries really keen to get asense of where you're seeing
the most traction.
So, again, thinking about thetrends in river cruising, what
are the destinations the newdestinations that you're
introducing that are seeing themost traction, or what are some
of the existing itineraries thatare the strongest performers?

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
So in terms of volume , it's absolutely the Rhine and
the Danube that kind of go oneversus the other every year in
terms of what's the top sellingthe most volume.
But if I were to look atbiggest growth or most
successful new, the answer is alittle bit different.
So the Douro was launched lastyear in Portugal with the brand
new Avalon Alegria that we builtand launched in 2024.

(01:00:57):
Sold out almost instantly.
It's basically sold out for2025 also and about half sold
for 2026.
So that has certainly been ahuge success.
The other destination thatcontinues to always show a huge
amount of interest and keepsgrowing is France, and so we had

(01:01:17):
a ship on the Seine, we haveone on the Rhone and this year
in 2025, we just put theartistry to, we did a total
refresh and refurbishment of theship and moved her into
Bordeaux to do the Garonne andDordogne rivers.
So that's the other latestnewest because of the interest
in France, and I think I'vetalked a little bit about our

(01:01:39):
wish list survey a couple timesmaybe, as we've been talking,
and France is always number oneon the Avalon Travelers wish
list of where they want to gonext.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
Yeah, france is where we're headed.
This summer.
Our kids are graduating highschool and we've actually done a
couple of river cruises.
Yeah, I know it's.
And for Europe, you know Europeis.
This is the part I love aboutEurope you can go back to it
different seasons and there's somuch of Europe to explore.
And yeah, we haven't the kidshaven't we did a French river
cruise trip.
We, we did a French rivercruise trip.

(01:02:08):
We went from Paris up toNormandy and it was spectacular.
We haven't done the South, likeBurgundy, but we're going to
spend some time in Provence andthe South of France, which I'm
so looking forward to.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
But so even those destinations.
Yeah, that's among my favorite,probably my favorite when
people ask me which, I knowyou're never supposed to pick a
favorite.
It's like picking a favoritechild, but I love Southern
France.
You're going to have an amazingtime.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
That's awesome.
Thanks, I'm so looking forwardto it.
What about yourself in terms ofyour travel plans, some of the
places you're planning to headto?
I know you obviously travel alot for work and you're also
highlighting, too, that you justlike getting on the ship and
being able to have that time,even traveling independently, if
you will, without the family.
What traveling independently,if you will, without the family?
What are some of the trips youhave planned and what are some
of the new itineraries thatAvalon's looking to introduce in

(01:02:56):
the future?

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
Sure, well, I'm one of the worst travel planners for
myself.
I will admit that I don't havea vacation planned for this year
Doesn't mean it's not going tohappen.
It'll happen eventually.
But my poor husband just has towait around till I come up with
an idea.
I guess, or he does.
But I do have some plans to geton some of our ships.
I'm heading, actually, toSwitzerland for a meeting and

(01:03:21):
then need to go to the UK foranother meeting and I have the
weekend in between and I'mreally excited to jump on the
Avalon Vista to see some crewmembers, which this is kind of a
fun story we had a ship inMyanmar when it was possible to
operate there.
It's currently not possible, andso the most amazing crew on

(01:03:43):
that ship and we were able toset up and work with a crewing
agency in Myanmar to be able toemploy those crew members in
Europe, and so I haven't seenthem.
They've been working for us inEurope for a couple of years and
I would just really like to seethem again, because I was the

(01:04:04):
one who built that ship and washeavily involved in the launch
of it in Myanmar and it washeartbreaking when we had to
stop operations and they've justbeen so genuine in their
appreciation of getting theopportunity to come and work for
us in Europe and I am excitedto see them again and thank them
for still being part of theAvalon family.

(01:04:26):
So that's one trip and then I'llbe on the Akta River Summit,
which is on a Christmas marketcruise I hear it's sold out and
then at some point I'll try totravel with guests again this
season.
So I like to go on at least onecruise, sometimes more when
it's a travel advisor event,which is what the active cruise

(01:04:48):
is.
I was on the ASTA River Summit,some of the post cruises from
that, and we did an inaugural inBordeaux.
So I've been on ships a bitthis year already, but I like to
do one that is not a tradeevent.
It's just with customers andgetting to know them and hear
what they like and don't like,because we really are a customer

(01:05:09):
focused brand in terms of howwe develop product, how we
change any services on board,whatever it may be, and hearing
it directly from them in personis always important.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
Well, it's interesting when you mentioned
Myanmar, because certainlySoutheast Asia is one of my
favorite places to travel.
I've been there a number oftimes and I've done like a few
months backpacking and withThailand, vietnam, cambodia,
I've always wanted to do theMekong river cruise experience.
I think that that, to me, ishigh up there on my list because

(01:05:40):
such stunningly beautifulscenery.
You've done that one then.

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
I have.
I've done that quite a fewtimes.
I've in my.
In my former role I was theperson involved in building
those ships and we havecurrently the Avalon Saigon and
it's a beautiful ship, only 18staterooms, and we built a
really small ship with a purposethere.
We wanted to be able to saildirectly out of Ho Chi Minh City

(01:06:05):
of Saigon port, so most of thecruise lines you have to drive a
couple of hours to a placecalled Mito to get on the ship
and then start sailing.
And that sailing between Saigon, the city, and Mito is so
interesting.
It's such a busy waterway withso much hustle and bustle
happening and just not having tohave that coach ride is a huge

(01:06:25):
advantage.
And then on the other side, inCambodia, we actually fly from

(01:06:48):
Phnom Penh to Siem Reap, takingout about a five hour to six
hour bus ride.
Me, in terms of you know theinteractions with locals and how
much they embrace having us asvisitors and are curious and
want to talk to you and meet you.
It's really, it's such a greatexperience.

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
Yeah, you mentioned that transport and just how
important that is to get.
When my wife and I were inSaigon, we went to explore the
Coochie Tunnels and we gotpicked up our transfer from our
hotel to take us to the coachthat drove us out there.
We ended up getting picked upon motorcycles and my wife,
which was a surprise to both ofus when these two gentlemen
turned up and told us to get on.
But they seemed to know ourname, so we trusted them and we

(01:07:31):
got on the back of thesemotorcycles and whizzed through
traffic, which was incrediblythrilling because obviously it's
like a school of fish, right?
People somehow move out of yourway and the traffic flows.
It seems wild, especially to anoutsider, but when we got to
the destination, my wife got offon the wrong side and she got
what I guess is known as asaigon tattoo.
She put her the inside of hercalf against the the hot muffler

(01:07:53):
oh no, yeah, and uh got aterrible burn that affected a
good part of the trip for thenext couple of weeks.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
But this is where, like getting the right transfers
and getting right, there waslike well, we use tons of
different transportation formsbecause it makes it really fun,
but motorcycles isn't one ofthem.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
We have cyclos.

Speaker 1 (01:08:13):
So the little you know, the bikes that you sit in
the basket, in the front is oursightseeing.
In Phnom Penh we have an ox cartride, we have tuk-tuks, so we
try to give people a hugedifferent variety of
transportation modes that arereally local and unique.
We go and meet, you know youtravel by sandpan along the
river and in Vietnam you go andmeet a man who crafts the little

(01:08:37):
small sandpan boats.
So it's such an amazingitinerary.
But yeah, motorcycles aren't onthe menu yet and probably won't
be based on the story you justtold.

Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
No, definitely avoid that.
I'm glad our listeners knowthat.
Avoid that.
If I've saved one person aSaigon tattoo by telling that
story, it was definitely worthit.
Get off on the non-muffler side.
I think that's the left side,but yeah, and the cyclos are so
much fun.
But we're obviously we'retalking to someone I've cruised.
You're a total expert in this.
But to bring all of ournewcomers along with us, whether

(01:09:10):
they be someone that'slistening to this that has never
river cruised before, that's aconsumer that's trying to make a
decision on where they're goingto go and who they're going to
travel with, or a travel advisorthat wants to be in a great
position to be able to advisetheir customer on the brand they
should choose and the ship andthe destination.

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
What are the tips that you typically give to first
time river cruisers?
Well, you know, I think thatit's really important to know
that all of the brands aredifferent.
Every brand has a unique vibeto it in terms of the decor,
let's say, the types ofexperiences they offer, how
flexible it is, or if it's, youknow, a one choice for the
excursions, or if there aremultiple choices.
If you're an active person, isthere a fitness center?

(01:09:59):
Do they have bikes or not?
And if you're not an activeperson, maybe that doesn't
matter.
So obviously I would love it ifevery single person chooses
Avalon and it's the right brandfor them.
But I know the reality is thatthere are going to be brands
that fit every single travelerand their personality.
So, you know, obviously youknow looking at all of the
brands, and so you brought uptravel advisors.

(01:10:21):
Using a travel advisor who'svery knowledgeable about that is
a great way to you know, talkto them.
They'll ask you all the rightquestions and find out what
brand might be the best fit foryou.
So the consumer side, I thinkthat, hopefully, and then the
itinerary, I think is also amajor.
You know what are the, what arethe places you want to see and

(01:10:41):
how do you want to experiencethem.
So, on the travel advisor side,I absolutely recommend taking a
river cruise, if you have not,and or going to the river expos
that are being done both by ASTAand by ACTA.
So you know, seeing that isespecially the ASTA River Expo,

(01:11:02):
having every, almost everycruise line there with a ship.
Even if you don't get to sailon every ship, you go, get to
get to dine on all the differentships, you get to go to
educational sessions on theships, you get to stay on board
ships, and so if you have aconsumer coming and asking you
about a brand, you have nowdirect knowledge of that brand
and can tell them what thedifferences are between the

(01:11:23):
different brands and help themchoose which one's right for
them.
So I think those would be mytips to either side of the
equation.

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
Those are great tips.
The one thing I'm just going toadd and just put it out there to
anyone that's still consideringa river cruise and is maybe not
taking one yet because theydon't think they're a cruiser
there's a huge differencebetween ocean cruising and river
cruising and if you are nervousabout the water or the open
water or just, some peopleobviously get seasick or just
feel claustrophobic and there'ssome of these things that the

(01:11:51):
thing I was amazed by, Pam, whenI did a series on ocean
cruising in season four we hadVirgin Voyages, we had a number
of Princess, and when I wasspeaking to people and kind of
gauging some of the questionsthey were keen for me to ask,
one of the things that's veryclear was that there's just like
a third of potential travelersjust are not interested in
cruising as a category, and soone of the difficulties for

(01:12:12):
ocean cruise is trying toconvince people that they would
be interested in that type ofocean cruise.
They're kind of shut themselvesdown to it and I think there's a
bit of crossover to rivercruise.
People don't think they're acruiser and then they don't
necessarily embrace rivercruising.
And I just want to say toeveryone out there that is not

(01:12:35):
into ocean cruising.
You're perfect for rivercruising because it is a
completely different experience.
It is as you described with theships, of being able to look
out the smaller group nature ofit, and I'm someone who's a bit
susceptible to to motionsickness.
Unfortunately, it's just theway that I'm wired and so I but
I had no problem in a rivercruise, Like I just was not an
issue.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
Yeah, there's very little motion if any ever.
So, um, yeah, and my mother hasthat issue also and has never
had any issues on our ships.
So, um, what you said is 100%true.
You know it is a cruise, so ithas all of the advantages of a
cruise in that, um, you know,it's an all inclusive price

(01:13:07):
point in general, um, you know,or mostly inclusive, with beer
and wine at lunch and dinner,which not every ocean cruise, by
the way, has this, in fact,most don't.
But people think of it as allinclusive because of the food
being included.
But River takes it even to thenext level with, you know,
drinks being included,excursions being included,
diluted, you pack and unpackonce.

(01:13:28):
Which I think is the biggestadvantage of cruising, quite
honestly, is that it makes itsuper easy to travel between
multiple places.
But river cruising has theadvantages of not having the
huge numbers of people on board,of being able to dock right in
the heart of the destination.
You know, if you're anon-cruiser, you might fear the

(01:13:52):
idea of, well, how long does ittake to get all these people off
of the ships?
And, um, you know, on a, on ariver cruise, there's never a
wait.
There aren't big lines foranything, um, to get on and off
for the buffets, for the bar,whatever it may be.
It's just, it's a small groupof people.
You know, on average for Avalon, about 150 people, um, people
on a ship, and so there's justplenty of space for everyone and

(01:14:14):
no lines and no waiting.

Speaker 2 (01:14:16):
Yeah, no, those are definitely many of the
highlights and the reason thatwe rush back to do another river
cruise again, and certainlyit's one of my favorite ways to
travel.
The other thing I wanted to askyou I just have two more
questions for you, pam, but oneof them.
Given that you oversee thisglobal brand and have done for a
number of years you came up onthe product side and I've so

(01:14:36):
enjoyed this conversation I wantto get your take on what the
future of river cruising is andclearly, obviously I'm not
asking for the futuristicversion of what does it look
like in 2050.
I mean, what do you think overthe next five years, let's say,

(01:14:57):
as river cruise continues toevolve the on-ship experience,
the destinations I'm sure a lotof what we love about river
cruising needs to remain thesame, but how do you see this
industry evolving in the nextthree to five years?

Speaker 1 (01:15:03):
Well, I mean there are a lot of studies out there
that show the size of theindustry potentially doubling in
five years.
So that doesn't necessarilymean double the number of ships.
Double the economic impact, Iguess, is the better way to put
it in terms of the growth.
So we know that there's a newentrant coming with Celebrity

(01:15:24):
coming in, and you know it'sunclear how big their fleet will
be.
There have been a couple ofdifferent numbers.
You know Viking's on a growth,their fleet will be.
There have been a coupledifferent numbers.
You know Vikings on a growthpath still we're on a growth
path.
You know every river cruiseline has plans to grow to meet
that demand.
That's expected.
So I don't I'm not concernedabout that.
Yet A lot of people have saidoh, doesn't that worry you.

(01:15:46):
You know some of the ports arereally crowded already.
There are so many places alongthese rivers that are still
available to see and that arevery interested in working as a
community with river cruiselines.
So I think that that's anobligation that we all have to
the industry.
You know, when you think about alot of the ports that river

(01:16:07):
cruising you know goes to solet's say, dernsteinstein, melk,
if you're not a river cruiser,you've probably never heard of
these places, and they're littlevillages in Austria that you
probably wouldn't have gone toor never heard of if you hadn't
gone on a river cruise, and nowthey've become so popular.
So what are the other placeslike that along the rivers that

(01:16:27):
want to have visitors come, andthere are plenty.
We recently partnered with Ebes, which is another village just
a little bit away from the VakauValley.
That is very easy andaccessible and has things to see
and do, and so finding placeslike that the area in Hungary at

(01:16:47):
the Danube Bend with Estragomand Visegrad I think we're one
of the only lines that goes tothose places.
So finding these other and newgems to should be concerned
about, and we should be thinkingabout it and making sure.

(01:17:12):
I once attended a session onsustainability and the question.
It was a man fromPricewaterhouseCoopers who said
that your main question shouldbe would they want you back?
Would the community want youback?
And I think if there's acommunity that doesn't want us
back, that we have a problem.
So we all need to be thinkingand making sure that the
communities consistently want usback as an industry.

Speaker 2 (01:17:34):
Yeah, no, that's for sure.
And that's where you knowtravel can be such a force for
good by bringing money to localeconomies, you know, in certain
areas of the world, liftingpeople out of poverty.
So when you talk about placeslike Myanmar, and you know, and
both Southeast Asia and SouthAmerica both have that in common
and so there are so manybenefits to travel.
But, as you rightly pointed out, pam, we have to do so in the
right way, and certainly thisconversation, to me, has been

(01:17:57):
really eye-opening.
I've been really lookingforward to speaking to you,
especially after connecting withSteve at Globus.
I was really looking forward toour conversation as part of the
River Cruise series and I'mdelighted we had this
opportunity to connect with eachother.
Even though we hadn't metbefore.
It feels like I've actuallyknown you for many years I think
it's just because we bothworked in the industry and I
certainly look forward to seeingyou at some point in the near

(01:18:20):
future in person.
But, yeah, I wanted to saythanks so much for joining us,
but I also want to make surethat all of our listeners know
how they can connect with you.
How can they learn more aboutAvalon for consumers and for
travel agents that will you know, take interest after this to
reach out to Avalon.
How best for them to do so.

Speaker 1 (01:18:36):
Yeah, our website's avalonwaterwayscom.
So you know, going there tolearn more about the brand as,
or reaching out to, your traveladvisor.
You know, for consumers, fortravel advisors, I absolutely
recommend that you go onto ourtravel advisor portal If you
don't already know your BDM.
We have a big team of tradeexclusive BDMs who are all over

(01:19:00):
the country, countries beingboth Canada and the US, and so,
you know, find your local BDM.
They will work with you.
You know their job is to helpbuild your business.
They're not just there to dropoff brochures.
Their role is to be yourbusiness partner, to talk
through what your plans are,what your goals are, and help I
should say what your goals areand then help you make a plan.

(01:19:22):
You know and be a partner inthat.
They'll do consumer nights withyou if you want to do groups,
whatever it may be.
So definitely find out who yourlocal BDM is and connect with
them, and that's the best way tohelp build your business.

Speaker 2 (01:19:36):
That's great.
Well, thank you for this, pam.
I know you're off toSwitzerland next week, so I wish
you safe travels and awonderful summer, and I look
forward to keeping in touch.
Thanks again.

Speaker 1 (01:19:45):
Yes, me too.
It's been a real pleasure totalk to you, Dan.

Speaker 2 (01:19:52):
Thanks so much for joining us on this latest
episode of Travel Trends.
I hope you enjoyed today'sconversation with Pam Hoffey,
the president of Avalon.
I thought it was a perfect wayto wrap up our River Cruise
series and I just wanted to saythanks again to the team at
Captio for sponsoring our RiverCruise series.
That's K-A-P-T-I-Ocom if youwant to find out more
information about theirtechnology solution designed
specifically for multi-daytravel brands.
And then next week we'reactually going to be speaking to

(01:20:15):
the chief technology officerover at Expedia before we dive
into our final series of seasonfive, the in-destination
experiences sponsored by ourfriends over at Pernod Ricard.
We're already working away onseason six, which will launch in
September.
So if you have suggestions forcontent or guests that you want
to see featured, by all meansreach out to us.

(01:20:36):
You can reach out to me anytimeby email,
danattraveltrendspodcastcom.
And don't forget, we do haveclips and highlights of all
these conversations throughoutthe River Cruise series and
specifically with ourconversation today with Pam
Hoffey from Avalon, so be sureto check those out at Travel
Trends Podcast on LinkedIn,instagram and YouTube.
And then, don't forget, we havelaunched our AI Summit for

(01:20:58):
October 28th and 29th 2025.
So be sure to register for moredetails at
TravelTrendsPodcastcom.
Until next week, safe travels.

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