How the Transformation Economy Is Redefining Tourism with Jake Haupert and Joe Pine

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm always asking what next?
You know, my personal purposein life is to figure out what's
going on in the world ofbusiness and then develop
frameworks that first describewhat's happening and then
prescribe what companies can doabout it.
And so part of that is likewhat's next, what's next?
And so part and parcel of thatexperience kind of is recognize
that we only ever change throughthe experiences that we have.

(00:24):
You know that we're all theproduct of our experiences, as
the saying goes, so thatexperiences would naturally
change us and that you candesign experiences to actually
change people, and people haveaspirations that they want met,
and so you eventually would getand now it's really hot on the
heels of the experience.

(00:44):
Economy is an economy wherepeople buy based on what effect
is it going to have on me, whatis the impact?
As well as on the greater worldin which I live.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Hello everyone and welcome back to Travel Trends.
This is your host, danChristian, and today we have our
final installment of ourthree-part series focused on the
world of in-destinationexperiences brought to us by our
friends over at Pernod Ricard.
We started this series speakingto Christian Latchell from BRC
Imagination Arts, then we hadLaura Cilio-Pavat join us from

(01:17):
Pernod Ricard, and today we havetwo more extraordinary guests
for you.
We have the best-selling authorof the Experience Economy, joe
Pine, and the co-founder of theTransformational Travel Council,
jake Halpert.
So it's a perfect way to capoff this series, which we are
going to bring back for seasonsix, which kicks off in

(01:42):
September.
We only have one more episodeleft of season five and then
we're actually going tointroduce a series of spotlight
episodes over the course of Julyand August before we come back
in September.
Now, just before we bring onthese two extraordinary guests,
I just wanted to acknowledge theteam at Pernod Ricard one more
time, just so all of our globallisteners actually understand
who they are and what they doand why you should care,
especially going into summer2025, because hopefully you can

(02:05):
include one of their brand homeson your travels this summer.
Pernod Ricard truly believed thefuture of travel is
experiential.
It's not just about where yougo.
It's about what you love andwho you meet along the way.
Imagine uncovering the heritageof your favorite spirits,
exploring iconic cellars anddistilleries and walking in the

(02:25):
footsteps of the founders andthe artisans who shaped these
legendary brands.
From exclusive tastings tobehind-the-scenes moments, these
immersive journeys turnproducts into stories and
visitors into lifelong brandambassadors.
With more than 35 destinationsacross four continents, pernod
Ricard's brand homes havealready welcomed over 1.3

(02:46):
million travelers, creatingmeaningful experiences that
connect people to the craft, theplace and the story behind
every sip.
So, whether you're aconnoisseur or simply curious,
take the time this summer todiscover the magic of spirits
tourism with Pernod Ricard'sbrand homes, where passion meets
place and every visit is anunforgettable journey.
We'll be right back.

(03:09):
This episode is brought to youin part by our friends at Stay
22, the monetization solutionbuilt for travel creators and
publishers.
Stay 22 helps you unlock hiddenrevenue with tools that let
your readers book hotels,activities and more right from
your content.
No pop-ups, no extra work, justsmart, passive income that runs
in the background so you canfocus on creating.

(03:31):
Are you ready to make everyclick count?
Then head to stay22.com.
Slash travel trends and startearning more from your travel
content without the ad clutterthat's stay22.com slash travel
trends.
Our longtime listeners will bevery familiar with travelaicom,
one of our sponsors, from thevery beginning.
They've sponsored the last twoseasons and also our AI summit.

(03:54):
You might actually rememberthey were recently featured in
season four.
The two co-founders, johnLiotier and Chris Jensen, live
from Focusrite, where theyshared how their innovative use
of AI is reshaping the travelindustry.
If you missed it, we highlyrecommend going back to hear
their inspiring story ofbuilding one of the fastest
growing, profitable AI companiesin travel.

(04:14):
Entirely bootstrapped Travel AIis revolutionizing the industry
by blending AI poweredefficiency with personalized
human centered travelexperiences, from
micro-segmentation to tailoredtravel solutions.
Their mission is to enhanceevery traveler's journey while
setting the pace for travel'sfuture.
Here's how you can join theexciting mission.

(04:34):
If you or someone you know intech or AI is looking for a new
career that combines innovationand impact, then head to
TravelAIcom or follow them onLinkedIn to explore more
opportunities.
They are growing fast.
Thanks again for your continuedsupport.
And now back to the show.
Now let's prepare to welcome inour two truly exceptional

(04:57):
guests for this special finaleepisode of the In Destination
Experiences of season 5 ofTravel Trends.
I'm so excited that we are atthe point where we can have such
exceptional guests like Joe andJake joining us, and I'm so
excited about Season 6 and wherewe're headed with Travel Trends
, based on today's conversation,and you'll hear from Jake, who

(05:18):
is one of the most highlyrespected figures in the world
of transformational tourism.
He's an amazing speaker, heteaches and he really guides
companies on how they can expandand implement these strategies
on a global level.
His whole background is intravel and tourism and
specifically the issues thatthreaten tourism's ability to be

(05:38):
additive rather than extractivein our lives and society, and
this really is a paradigm shiftthat is necessary to make so
that travel can be healthier,more fair, just, compassionate
and impactful.
And Jake is committed to doingsomething about it, and that's
why he is shepherding the TravelTransformational Council.
He is the chair of thisinstitute, and they have members

(06:02):
and program alumni all over theworld that are powering this
ecosystem of conscious travelthrough professionals, leaders,
guides, the media andinfluencers, and you can then
see why he and Joe Pine work soincredibly well together.
So Joe Pine, who, to many of ourlisteners, needs no
introduction, since he'sinspired so many of you to be in

(06:25):
this industry, including myself.
But for those of you who arejust coming to know who Mr Pine
actually is, he is aninternationally acclaimed author
, also a very highly soughtafter speaker.
He works as a managementadvisor to various Fortune 500
companies as well as startups.
He's the co-founder ofStrategic Horizons, which is a

(06:46):
thinking studio dedicated tohelping businesses conceive and
design new ways of adding valueto their economic offerings.
You'll actually hear Joe intoday's conversation talk about
the reason that businessesactually exist, and I really
want you to hear it from himself, because he has this background
in mathematics and business andhe somehow manages to weave

(07:07):
together the art so successfullyand make his books and his
teachings so accessible tomillions of people around the
world.
Joe's groundbreaking book, theExperience Economy, was
published way back in 1999 buthas become one of the top 100
business books of all time and Iknow it's inspired many of our
listeners.
And he is about to publish hisnext major work, which is the

(07:31):
transformation economy, whichcomes out later this year or
early into 2026, depending whereyou are in the world.
But I'm sure many of ourlisteners will be pre ordering a
copy because he will be guidingus on the journey of where
travel and tourism is headedwith his major new work, and I
cannot wait for him to sharethat with you now, as well as
the background on the experience, economy and how he works with

(07:53):
Jake and the TransformationalTravel Institute.
So, welcome Jake, welcome Joe.
So great to have you on TravelTrends.
Thanks so much for joining us.

Speaker 3 (08:01):
It's a pleasure.
Thanks, dan, really excited tobe here.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
Absolutely, and I think everyone got a good idea
from that introduction just howimportant both of you are to the
travel industry and certainlyeven to my decisions in life.
I mean, joe's book was a seminalwork 1999, that I graduated
that year and actually it was abig reason why I decided to go
into the travel industry and theexperience economy.
So it's a phenomenal journey tofinally be at a point where I

(08:29):
have the privilege to have theTravel Trends podcast, be in
season five and have theprivilege to speak to Joe and
Jake and you guys.
Just so you know, you'vealready inspired me for season
six, which will launch inSeptember, and the theme is
going to be captains of industryand the people like yourselves
that are really shaping thefuture of travel.
And so many people who havebeen on our podcast more than
100 plus episodes have beeninspired by you both, and
particularly Joe, even thinkingof people like Bruce Rosard from

(08:51):
Arrival many people you know inthis industry.
They're in this industrybecause of you or they've been
inspired to advance theircareers by the learning from
your excellent work.
So again, a sincere thank youto me for joining us.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
It's very gratifying to hear.
Thank you, dan, I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
That's wonderful.
I'm pleased to hear that, joe,and let's start, since the focus
is the transformation economy,which is both the work Jake has
been doing for many years withTTC and also the name of Joe's
new book coming out.
But let's talk about theTransformation Tourism Council
and what brought you to actuallycreate this in the first place,
jake.

Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yeah, yeah, happy to.
I, you know I wish we had moretime because it's a long story,
but you know I can.
I was running my first companyback in and that I started in 06
.
And we were showcasing nationalparks around the western US,
you know, and I was, I wasguiding at the time.
So spending a lot of timetrying to connect people to
nature, connect people with eachother, really give these

(09:50):
immersive experiences, you know,and I started recognizing that
maybe travel had lost a littlebit of its power, you know, and
that people were traveling formaybe the wrong reasons and, you
know, coming in with a sense ofentitlement or expectation you
expectation, and I really feltlike there was an opportunity to
bring travel back to its roots,make it more impactful, more
ethical, and so that reallyopened up the door for me in

(10:14):
terms of, like, what's possiblewith travel and tourism If we're
able to open our eyes and maybelook at it with fresh eyes and
with new energy and newenthusiasm.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
And now you started this 10 years ago and you've
also just launched the 2025Transformational Travel State of
the Industry Report, which Ihave a number of questions on.
It's an excellent overview ofwhere the industry is today.
It's worth everyone reading all20 pages and applying it to
their businesses.
But yeah, tell us a little bitabout your journey over that
past 10 years.
I know there's obviously a lotof different milestones you've

(10:47):
accomplished, but tell us alittle bit more about the
journey you've been on and someof the big accomplishments
you've made that you know bringyou to this point.

Speaker 3 (10:55):
Yeah, you know, I, you know, kind of building off
of the, the, the, the story Ijust told in terms of you know
why I got into this.
You know, I set out on aadventure with some friends that
would like to go backpacking,and went to Kilimanjaro and we
decided, I decided that I wasgoing to start playing around
with, you know, some of theseideas I was having around how to
create transformations, youknow, for being more intentional

(11:17):
, being more present, havingmore meaningful conversations,
you know, driving towardoutcomes, you know.
And thinking bigger, you know.
And so that that experience,you know, with Kilimanjaro, was
so deeply moving for us, becausewe're able to bring a little
bit more intentionality to it,that it really charted the
course for me, you know, to getinto this work.

(11:39):
And, as you know, once you getin, you know, on your path per
se, you end up finding otherpeople on the path right, and so
I was surrounding myself withgreat people like Michael
Bennett and Kurt Katai, and wegave a presentation at the
Adventure Travel World Summit2016.
And it resonated, you know.
People were like, oh yes, this,this, this has potential, this,
this could be the future oftravel, and we're just really

(12:00):
striking a chord, you know.
So we're like, well, we shoulddo something about this, and so
we decided that we're going totry to create an organization, a
school and a consultancy thatreally unlock travel's potential
with new frameworks, techniquesand tactics.
But it's been a hard journey,for sure, pushing the boulder up
the hill, trying to get theindustry to change.
Lots of positive energy, lotsof rah, rah, rah, but in terms

(12:25):
of, like, real adoption, youknow, and getting people to
shift how they design anddeliver travel has been a
challenge.
But the pandemic certainlyopened things up.
It accelerated this, you know.
People came out of that, youknow, with a little bit more
desire for meaning and purposeand connection, you know, and
travel has always been such aplace that we seek this out, you

(12:45):
know.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
So then that really started to open up the
opportunity for us and, you know, with Joe's work in the
transformation economy, yeah,and so just on that, I think
that's one of the things that Ireally want to dive into is this
concept of transformation andexactly what it means and how
it's being realized today withbusinesses in the marketplace.
Because I think the concept ofthe experience economy instantly
people get that, because theidea that we have moved from

(13:09):
this idea of goods and servicesto actually defining, as, Joe,
you highlighted, economistsnever really had a measure of
what was the experience economybefore until your landmark work
that kind of shaped an entirenew view of even how businesses
like Apple and Starbucks andDisney they were really
succeeding by creatingexperiences for their customers,
and so all of these businesseshave been inspired by that work,

(13:31):
understand the importance ofexperiences.
And the final episode in ourseason is with Rod Cuthbert, the
founder of Viator, and exactlywhat he describes is again very
much inspired from your work,which was right.
In that time we were movingaway from this Gordon Gekko he
who dies with the most toys winsmentality that greed is good
and that people were actuallylooking for more meaning in
their lives and looking forexperiences beyond material

(13:54):
possessions, and you reallystruck a chord.
And now we're going to behaving much the same
conversation about thetransformation economy, but I
don't think that word itself.
It means different things todifferent people initially.
So I really want to explain bothyour brand, Jake, and your book
coming up, Joe.
So, but before we do that,let's bring Joe into the
conversation by explaining toour audience how you guys

(14:15):
connected.
Because, Jake, we caught up afew months ago at the
Educational Travel ConsortiumConference.
I can see what great respectpeople have for you in the
industry.
We had dinner together.
It was terrific.
We've got so many greatcolleagues and friends in common
.
And then we discovered byvirtue of that that actually you
work closely with Joe and I waslike no way.
Joe's like one of my heroes.
And here we are.
So tell everyone how we gothere or specifically, how you

(14:38):
connected with Joe.

Speaker 3 (14:39):
Well, I'll jump in and just say I was one of those
idols still am right, like I wasaspiring, you know, to do work
like Joe's work, right.
I read his book and you know, Isaw the references, you know
the very forward-looking view ontransformations in that
experience economy, and so I,you know I, started reaching out

(15:01):
and sending him messages andeventually he answered and we
met while he uh, uh, uh, whilehe was having a breakfast at a
hotel in San Francisco, uh anduh, and then the rest is history
.
He like he, you know, we, we,we vibed right away, we
connected and and, and we bothsaw this sort of similar future
or in regard to transformation,and we've been he's been

(15:22):
mentoring and guiding advisoryof the TTC, but, more
importantly, just a wonderfulfriend.
So, yeah, that's how I met Joe.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
So, joe, were you vibing right away too?

Speaker 1 (15:33):
Oh yeah, but I'm blushing, now you can see me,
I'm blushing through all this mywife says I don't need a bigger
head, so you need to cut it out.
But but yeah, I mean when whenI discovered Jake, he said you
said, eventually answered I'mpretty responsive with people
contacting.
I think it was pretty wild, butanyway, I'm glad we met.

(15:53):
But TTC exemplifies so much ofwhat I've been saying about the
transformation economy and whilewhile the book is coming out
now, the idea is there from thevery beginning.
When I discovered the experienceeconomy in 1994 and first
started writing about it in 95,96, 97, and then published the

(16:14):
HBR article that everybody likesto cite in 98 and then the book
in 99, you know thetransformation was a core to it
there and you know basicallywhat my partner, jim Gilmore,
and I talked about was thisprogression of economic value,
about how, if you go back tomillennia, that we've gone from
an agrarian economy based offcommodities to an industrial

(16:35):
economy based off goods to aservice economy, and then now
we're in an experienced economy.
And, like you said, dan, when Ifirst started talking I used to
have to argue with people thatthis was going on, and now I
just say it and everybody getsit right.
They really understand how muchwe prefer experiences over
things and how much experiencesare part of our daily lives and

(16:56):
that.
But then I'm always asking whatnext?
My personal purpose in life isto figure out what's going on in
the world of business and thendevelop frameworks that first
describe what's happening andthen prescribe what companies
can do about it, and so part ofthat is like what's next, what's
next?
And so part and parcel of thatexperience, kind of, is
recognize that we only everchange through the experiences

(17:19):
that we have.
You know that we're all theproduct of our experiences, as
the saying goes, so thatexperiences would naturally
change us and that you candesign experiences to actually
change people, and people haveaspirations that they want.
Met economy is an economy wherepeople buy.
Based on what effect is itgoing to have on me?
What is the impact, as well ason the greater world in which I

(17:42):
live?

Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, and what I find fascinating about you, joe, and
the work that you've done andI'm not now going to say we'll
dial it back, both of us butyour background in mathematics
and technology.
You're a scholar, you're alecturer, you're an academic as

(18:06):
well as a practitioner.
You have your strategichorizons business, which you've
had for more than 30 years,where you work with your partner
, james on, with variouscompanies and so like beyond
just travel.
But I find what's fascinatingis that really, I mean the
social sciences and this conceptof how do you apply this
concept?

(18:26):
You can do it from an economictheory, but you can also apply
it so broadly and I think that'swhere your concepts are.
Yes, they're scholarly andacademic, but they're widely
applicable and, more importantly, accessible to a much wider
audience as well, which is sorare to have that combination.

(18:47):
Hey, travelers, are you lookingto book your next adventure?
Then you have to meet our goodfriends at Flight Center, the
travel-obsessed experts ready tomake your next dream trip a
reality.
For over 40 years, they've beenopening up the world to
travelers from the UK, australia, new Zealand and now Flight
Centre Canada is celebrating anincredible milestone 30 years of

(19:08):
helping Canadians explore theglobe.
From their first store inVancouver in 1995 to becoming
the official travel agencypartner of the Toronto Raptors
this year, they've been at theforefront of delivering travel
experiences At Flight Centre.
Travel is more than a passion.
It's their expertise Fromflights and accommodations to
cruises and tours, and evenbusiness travel is more than a
passion.
It's their expertise Fromflights and accommodations to
cruises and tours, and evenbusiness travel.

(19:28):
They handle it all, whetherit's crafting a tailor-made trip
or tackling group bookings.
They've got you covered.
Plus, with exclusive perks liketheir new bundle and save $500
on tour and cruise packages.
There's never been a bettertime to plan your getaway.
From the smallest getaways tothe biggest bucket list trips,
your travel goals are just acall or a click away.

(19:49):
Visit flightcenterca slashtravel trends to explore the
latest deals, learn aboutemerging travel trends and start
planning your next trip.
In today's fast-paced travelindustry, businesses face
constant challenges keeping upwith new technologies, meeting
ever evolving customerexpectations and promoting
products effectively.
The real struggle managing itall in-house.

(20:11):
That's where Travel Tech stepsin to transform your business.
With over 25 years ofexperience, travel Tech is one
of the most trusted names intravel technology, offering
tailored solutions to fit yourunique needs.
They make it easy to createseamless, bookable websites,
manage and promote products andautomate everyday tasks, giving
your team more time to focus onwhat matters most your customers

(20:33):
.
Plus Travel Tech is the go-toname in cruise technology, with
cutting-edge solutions for touroperators as well.
Plus Travel Tech has justlaunched Tech Talk, a new
podcast for travel professionalsby travel professionals.
Explore the stories behind thebiggest innovations in travel.
Visit TravelTechcom slashTravel Trends or tune in to Tech

(20:54):
Talk on Spotify and Apple.
That's TravelTechcom slashTravel Trends and Tech Talk on
Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
Are you looking for ways to growyour travel business through
paid media and optimized SEO?
Then you have to check out ourfriends at Propelliccom.
They are the leading digitalagency for growth in travel and

(21:16):
tourism.
Propellic offers bold digitalmarketing strategies to ensure
your travel company's success.
They have a remarkablemethodology that has actually
been implemented by TravelAIcom,and they are a leading SEO
agency globally and offer arange of resources a podcast of
their own, a blog on theirwebsite, propelliccom.
That's P-R-O-P-E-L-L-I-Ccom.

(21:40):
And don't forget to mentionTravel Trends for your free
marketing audit.
Now back to the show, one of thethings I really wanted to ask
you about, so I'm going to gothere first, even though I was
going to save it for a littlelater, because I actually do
want to talk about your book,and the reason I'm so eager is
because I've been following yourSubstack and you've actually
been bringing people like me onthe journey.

(22:02):
So it'stransformationsbooksubstackcom,
and Joe has been writing as he'sbeen producing this.
So you just made the connectionthat I really wanted to get to,
which is that you alreadycalled out the transformation
economy in your experienceseconomy book, so you knew this
was actually what was coming.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe journey to get to this point

(22:22):
.
Here we are, as you say, 25plus years later, with the next
landmark work.
So tell us a little bit aboutyour journey to get to this
point and what this new book isgoing to be about.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, to some degree.
The first eight chapters of theexperience accounting were a
Trojan horse to get you to readthe last two chapters and
recognize that this is reallywhere the value is, both for
businesses and for individuals.
Right, there's no greatereconomic value you can create
than to help somebody achievehis aspirations.
So it was always there and I'vebeen asked for 25 years when

(22:53):
are you going to write a fullbook on transformations?
And my answer is always twofoldis one I don't know enough
about it and two the world's notready for it.
Right, which I really believePeople tell me all the time.
The world wasn't ready for theexperience economy and now it's
finally catching up.
Once you see it, you see iteverywhere.
But it really was true that thetalking about transformations

(23:13):
gets a little airy-fairy, alsogets deep psychologically and
sociologically and sometimesphysiologically, and so it took
a while for the people really tostart to realize that they
really do want these.
They have these aspirations,they want to achieve them and

(23:36):
they so often need help becauseit's very difficult to achieve
our aspirations.
A couple of milestones in makingthat happen.
One is I partner with DaveNorton and his colleagues at
Stone Mantle and InsightsConsultancy, and they've been
doing for, I want to say, almost15, 20 years, these

(24:01):
collaboratives where they'rebringing a number of people
together to do real consumerresearch.
They pool the resources, theydevelop and then they each
company gets to develop anexperience strategy based off of
that.
Well, we started doing a trackon transformations you know
about five, six years ago andJake and his his colleagues at

(24:21):
the TTC joined in that and westarted asking questions of
consumers about transformations.
Understanding what they werethinking about.
It saw more possibilities,helped me develop more deep
thinking about it, moreframeworks about it, and so that
was one of the things that said.
You know, when we ask consumersand they're willing to answer
questions about that, the worldstarts to be ready for it.

(24:42):
And the other was the formationof the World Experience
Organization that James Wallmanfounded in London again five,
six years ago, and I'm one ofthe founders of it.
He contacted me also says hedoesn't want to start me unless
he doesn't start it, unless hesort of has my permission.
I said, well, you don't need mypermission, but you have it and
I want to help in any way I can, and particularly the summits

(25:06):
that they've had the last threeyears, I've recognized that
almost all of the experiencedesigners in this world
experience organization, whichmakes the largest share of its
members, are doingtransformative experiences or
want to do transformativeexperiences and certainly
recognize that transformativeexperiences or want to do
transformative experiences andcertainly recognize that.

(25:26):
So, from both sort of thesupply and the demand end, I
recognize that.
So, okay, now is the time to beable to do it.
So I did start actual writing onit 18 months ago in
anticipation of the substackcoming up, which I started in
March of last year, which I didas a catalyst to force me to
write.
Right, I really wanted to getthis done.
And now I got people that areasking for it, that signed up

(25:48):
for it, many of which are payingfor it, and so I said well, you
know.
Then I got to do that andthat's really kept me to my nose
, to the grindstone, so to speak, and also give me a lot of
feedback.
That's, in fact, made the bookbetter, you know, far better
than it would have if I hadn'tdone that.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, no, that's excellent insights and greatly
appreciate it and clearly itworked.
It forced you to get this bookout there into the world.
That's going to happen.

Speaker 3 (26:11):
It's done, it's done.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
Exactly.
I don't know if, Jake, have youseen an early copy?
I know you've shipped it, Joe,to the publisher and tell
everyone exactly when it comesout and when they're going to be
able to get access to it.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
Well, the official publication date is February 3rd
2026, but that's just the dateat which every bookstore in the
world that wants it well, theypromise to have it there.
Actually, harvard gets printedbooks and starts shipping them
out on December 23rd, so peoplecan start getting them toward
the end of the year or thebeginning of the year.
Harvard liked that because theyliked the idea of the new book

(26:45):
on the new you in the new year.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
Got it Okay.
That's great to know, because alot of our listeners, and
certainly even a lot of ourpartners, will be not only
interested to read the book, butalso have you speak.
I know you speak at a lot ofkey conferences.
One of our partners of theseries is Pernod Ricard.
They're obviously, just likeJake and I, a big fan of yours
as well and the journey thatthey've gone on.
The second largest wine andspirits group globally.

(27:08):
They have focused on buildingout all of their brand homes as
truly experienced,transformational.
Rather than just buying Jamesonwhiskey in a store, you can now
go visit the Jameson distilleryand have an experience that
really elevates the whole brandpromise.
So, yeah, so I know Idefinitely need an early copy,
however that happens.

(27:28):
But, jake, to bring you backinto this, and especially given
that you have your latest survey, tell us a little bit about
some of the big highlights fromyour 2025 Transformation Travel
Report.
I read it avidly as well.
I've got a few takeaways and afew questions for you myself,
but what were sort of for you,the biggest takeaways of

(27:49):
publishing this that would beinteresting to our listeners?

Speaker 3 (27:51):
Gosh, the research goes back a long way and really
supports Joe's vision and wewere able to identify and
collaborate with some of theearly thinking and research in
the space that goes back 25, 30years.
And so you know, this latestcollaborative that Joe talks
about, getting that consumerresearch, the quantitative and

(28:14):
qualitative data, really helpssupport what we knew to be true
in our hearts, you know, andwhat people are craving, you
know, and you know, I think itreally illuminated this shift in
the market that people arecraving, you know and you know,
I think it really illuminatedthis shift in the market that
people are craving, you know, tohave richer, more meaningful
experiences.
You know, I think that theindustry has become

(28:36):
extraordinarily superficial andartificial, you know,
commoditized in a lot of waysand, as you know, as you see,
with Joe's progression ofeconomic value, as you move up,
it becomes less commoditized, itbecomes more personal, you know
, and that's what the market'scraving, you know.
And so within that report, youknow, we have some case studies
and we got some examples of whatthis looks like in action.

(29:00):
You know, when you have decidedto embrace some of the thinking
, gone through some sort oftransformative process yourself,
because it does take afundamental shift and then start
to implement, like practicaltools and techniques, but it is
a stepwise approach.
It's that significant of achange and that's what I'm
really excited to see with Joe'sbook book, you know, because

(29:27):
he's going to really outlinethis in a way that makes it
approachable for so many people.
As Joe said, transformation is atough word, you know.
It is very loaded and somepeople are way more receptive to
it than others.
It's really easy as a buzzwordand as a trend.
It's a lot more difficult whenyou decide that you want to get
into the transformation business, you know, and so I hope our
report is able to convey alittle bit of that message and

(29:49):
inspire and motivate people toget into it, because there's a
ton of opportunity to createmeaningful value for travelers,
hosts and communities in thisdynamic.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, it definitely does.
And I'll just, if you don'tmind, I'll share a few of my
takeaways with our audience,because I know it's one of the
things that I hear from ourlisteners when we're kicking off
a new series.
They really love to hear someof the stats and some of the
more meaningful trends, thesignals that they should be
paying attention to.
And one thing just to establish, because I was going to ask you
both to kind of describe thetransformational travel and I'll

(30:18):
just do that from your reportwhich is intentionally traveling
to stretch, learn and grow innew ways of being and engaging
with the world, which, for me,that's something that happens
naturally when you're taking atrip with an adventure travel
brand.
For me, my first trip overseaswas with Intrepid through
Southeast Asia.
I worked with G Adventures formany years and when we figured

(30:39):
out the brand promise for GAdventures, way back in 2010,
2011, the whole concept waslife-changing experiences.
That's what we realized.
People were coming back andsaying I am changed from that
experience.
I've connected with locals,I've seen the world differently
and I've come back changed andI'm a better human as a result
of that.
So it's something that Joeyou've been able to describe you

(31:01):
, specifically Jake, have puttogether a TTC framework based
on psychology, mythology,neurobiology.
That actually helps explainthat, and this is the stuff I
love reading about, because it'sone of those things when you
peel back the human brain andyou were like you knew you
enjoyed it, but someone elsekind of actually helps explain
to you why.
What is the science behind, whyyou like a transformational

(31:23):
experience.
And then to all of our travelcompanies that are listening to
this, this is the most importantnumber you need to know In the
US alone, transformationaltravel represents a $208 billion
market opportunity.
So when you think about peoplelooking for personal growth,
self-awareness and this wholepodcast started as a

(31:44):
post-pandemic how has travelerbehavior changed?
And how has traveler behaviorchanged?
Almost overwhelmingly, it'sbeen in the direction of
wellness, mindfulness,sustainability, deeper
connections with nature andcommunities, and all of that is
factored into your report.
So I just wanted to highlightthat to all of our listeners,
because when you hear reading areport, I actually encourage

(32:06):
everyone to read it and look atyour own takeaways.
But the other thing I justwanted to ask you to while we're
on this topic is how canorganizations work with you Like
right off the top, because Iwasn't as familiar with TTC, and
so when people listening tothis are trying to figure out
who you guys are, what you guysdo, how do we work together,
give everyone a bit of anunderstanding of that.

Speaker 3 (32:26):
I'll jump in.
Yeah, the Transformation TravelCouncil you know being, you
know, really the field builders,the thought leaders in the
space, you know we've.
We identified that.
You know, if we wanted tocreate, create the positive
change that we desire, if wewanted to get a transformation
business, then we had to createa movement and collect

(32:47):
businesses and you know, otheroperators, hoteliers, across the
category, that were waking upto the potential of this and
create a community.
And so, you know, that was stepone.
And so now we are, you know,really seen as an experience
development or experience designschool, and so we have public
programs, like our signatureexperience development training,

(33:07):
six weeks and it's not enough,right, like, this is what's so
exciting about this opportunityin this space.
And then we do consulting, sowe work with hotels and
destinations, specificallytravel companies that are, you
know, either dipping a toe intoit or have been in it for years.
Right, it covers the entirespectrum, you know.
But this gets into some of thenuts and bolts on how to do it.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
And tell everyone just what are some of the
biggest challenges, becauseclearly there's a huge
opportunity.
Both of you have identifiedthat, but part of the reason
that people don't take action isbecause there's roadblocks.
What do you think those are forpeople trying to adopt a
transformational approach, andhow would you suggest they would
overcome them?

Speaker 3 (33:46):
You want to take that one, Joe?

Speaker 1 (33:50):
Sure, the biggest problem always is with any
business and transforming itself, is mindset.
It was that they have an oldmindset.
People have had a servicemindset made difficult for them
to shift into true, distinctiveexperiences.
And even with an experiencemindset, I think it's easier
because, again, it'stransformative experiences.

(34:12):
You're still experiencedstaging but, but it's still
difficult to think about how youmight use them to to transform
people.
And, and so I'll mention herewhat I think is the way to do it
that I talk about in the book,which is, which is what I call
encapsulation, right To turn anyexperience into a

(34:35):
transformative one is you needto encapsulate it with things
that the TTC talks about and arevery academically researched.
I just put the nameencapsulation on them all
together, which is first of allwith preparation, is how do you
prepare people?
How do you give them the rightmindset?
Going into the experience, getthem thinking about what the
possibilities are If they'regoing into it without like often

(34:57):
with adventure travel, dan,like you talked about, you're
not going in with the specificaspirations that you discover
that there's something that youwant to change while you're
there.
So you want to open them up tothat possibility, people that do
have an aspiration, get themthinking about why they want to
change, what are the benefits ofit, and so forth.
Then you have the experienceand then you need two other
parts that encapsulate it on theback end, which is reflection

(35:19):
and integration.
And reflection is where youthink about the experience that
you've had.
What were the highlights of it?
What did spark something in me,what did perhaps even start to
change something in me?
But so often this isparticularly the case with
travel is that spark willdissipate over time, that the
change won't last.

(35:39):
And to have a truetransformation it needs to last
through time, needs to besustained through time.
And that requires integration.
That requires you not saying,ok, the trip's over, go home
right.
No, it's that you've got tocontinue working with them or
give them the tools with whichthey can work with themselves to
integrate that into their lives, to keep it going and to

(36:00):
eventually change.
And the TTC perfectlyexemplifies that.
I'll mention this book, theTransformational Travel Journal,
that, in collaboration with theTTC, the Transformational
Travel Council, eric Rupp wrote,and in it they talked about the
path right P-A-T-H, right Fourwords, which is prepare there's
preparation, adventure there'sthe experience you have.

(36:23):
Think.
That's the reflection and honor, and it talks especially
intentional again, jake, I loveto use the word intentional by
my afterward to my book is allfocused on intention.
Intentional transformationoccurs when you honor your
insights and integrate them intoyour life right so that
perfectly exemplifies what youneed to do.
And this just giving them thisat the end of the trip and

(36:45):
letting them work, or before thetrip and letting them work on
it will, will help encapsulatethat experience, will help make
it last.
We'll turn it into a, a truetransformation.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
Dan, can I jump on that a little bit.
He's right about mindset and,you know, in terms of the, the
business and the tourism space,what we see is in terms of a
challenge is, you know, is thelack of beginner's mind.
We've been doing this for a longtime and so people think and
it's true, travel is inherentlytransformational.
That can happen, but when westart to introduce new

(37:20):
perspectives, new approach, newphilosophy, people tend to think
I've been doing this for 20years, what are you going to
teach me?
Right, like I work with luxurytravelers from around the world,
what possibly am I going tolearn?
You know, by shifting into thetransformation, there's
naturally a lot of pushback,which is why we all of our

(37:41):
programming, you know, when wework with destinations, when we
work with some of the, you knowthe hotels and such, or even our
course, is transformative initself.
Right, we have to transformtheir minds in order to get them
to think and be and dodifferently, and you know so
that's super critical,especially in this emerging

(38:04):
phase right now, where peoplehave a little bit of a
dissonance around what it is andwhat's possible.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
For sure, and there's two things I want to dive into
with both of you on these topics.
One is around sustainabilityand the concept of regenerative
travel, and the other one Idefinitely want to touch on with
you both is technology, becausethat certainly shifted so
substantially in the last fiveyears, let alone the last 20
years.
But, in terms of connecting,one of the posts that you

(38:30):
published a few months ago, joe,that I really enjoyed was
purpose and meaning, and one ofthe things you called out in
that blog post is that meaningis core to who we are as human
beings, and certainly thispodcast gives me both meaning
and purpose, and when ourlisteners respond, as they will,
very positively to this episode, I'm sure, given you both as
guests, it gives incrediblevalidation that we're right, on

(38:52):
the right track, we're on theright path and that whole idea
of the path, the hero's journey,the storytelling, and so let's
talk about sustainability andregenerative travel first,
because if we're trying toconnect with people on that
human level and humans areobviously very selfish by nature
it's part of the reason thatwe've got this far in our
journey and so they're lookinglike what's in it for them right

(39:15):
, and it's like that's obviouslya key to marketing as well.
So, you know, trying to createan experience or a
transformation that people wantto be a part of.
You know this in-destinationseries that we're doing now,
featuring different businessesthat are trying to create a
reason to go to a destinationlike the Sphere in Las Vegas, to
use one kind of extreme example.
But people have always traveledfor sightseeing.

(39:36):
They've always had some sort ofpurpose or mission to you know,
it's been religious travel.
It's, you know, pilgrimage.
It's the golden age of travel,when it was only the wealthy
that could go and see thepyramids.
But when we think about the agethat we live in now
post-pandemic, where we saw whatthe world looked like when
planes weren't in the air andmany parts of the world got to

(39:57):
start to regrow and regenerateand this concern that the
resources in this world arefinite and climate change is
real what are we all doing tomake sure that these
opportunities will still bethere for future generations?
So one of the questions I alwaysask our guests on our podcast
that our listeners know I alwaysask about sustainability and I
get a wide range of responsesfrom it's still people still

(40:19):
don't care to.
People are starting to care tosome people really care.
So, jake, maybe start with you.
Because sustainability,regenerative travel how do you
frame that conversation and howimportant is that in
transformational travel?
Because I certainly see brandsthat connect themselves to
transformational travel Intrepidbeing a great example instantly
jumping on concerns aboutovertourism and very much

(40:41):
focused on sustainability.
So tell us a little bit abouthow you're seeing sustainability
and regenerative travel in 2025and beyond.

Speaker 3 (40:52):
Yeah, yeah, tourism is an existential crisis.
You know it is extractive.
We want it to be additive andI've been working in the
sustainable tourism space for,you know, 20, 25 years.
That's why I got into.
Travel was a desire, followingthe ecotourism society early on.
Sustainable tourism Goingthrough that and going back to

(41:12):
my story at the beginning interms of recognizing we just
weren't having the impact thatwe wanted and the tours that we
were operating, I started torecognize that transformation
was the missing link in ourpro-social and pro-environmental
movements.
If we don't look at changethrough the lens of human
capacity and getting people tothink and connect and feel

(41:33):
differently, then we're notgoing to be able to move the
needle on some of theseinitiatives.
It has to come from the insideout.
As Joe has said, you can take ahorse to water, but you can't
make him drink.
So when we look at sustainabletourism or becoming more
sustainable or even gettingsustainable pro-sustainability

(41:53):
behaviors at home and on theroad, people have to have a
deeper connection with natureand with others and with
different cultures.
And so transformation that'swhat it's about.
It's about helping people becomemore present, more aware, more
conscious of how they'reengaging their own experiences

(42:14):
that drive the results that arenot just good for them but good
for all, you know.
And so, in regard toregeneration and regenerative,
it's a wonderful movement towardthere's a lot around
regenerative travel like leave aplace better than you found it
Like.
To me that's great, but like mygrandpa, you know, taught me
that from a very early agethat's like common sense, of

(42:35):
course we should leave a placebetter than we found it.
I think regeneration is aroundcreating the fertile conditions
for all life to thrive and it'swithin that mindset and
cooperating in that way, youknow, from a destination's
perspective, you know, sort ofusing nature as a blueprint that
creates the conditions forvisitors and the visited to have

(42:56):
transformative experiences.

Speaker 1 (42:58):
Yeah, it's one of the things I love about the TTC and
what they're doing there.
It's not just about thetraveler, it's about the
destinations and the places inwhich they're going.
In the chapter, dan, where youmentioned, where I talk about
the importance of purpose andmeaning as one of four spheres
of transformation, right forsort of like industries, the
core of that chapter is thebasic premise of which is the

(43:21):
raison d'etre of business.
Right, the reason for existenceof business and capitalism
period is to foster humanflourishing.
Right Is to help humansflourish.
And if you don't do that, as afriend of mine, stan Husted,
said, then you're just a racket.
Right, if that's not whatyou're about and that when you,
as a business, recognize that,you then need your own

(43:42):
meaningful purpose.
Right, that gives the employeesmeaning.
Right, that's a part and parcelof that purpose.
And meaning is it needs to haveas its end goal to help people
flourish in some way, shape orform.
And that's not just about thecustomers, that's about the
employees.
Right, the people that aredoing that work with that
purpose, getting that meaning,have to flourish as well.

(44:04):
And that means also that youhave responsibility for the
communities in which you reside,in which you work, for your
society overall, in which you'reincorporated and, yes, for the
planet.
That that is part and parcel.
You can't sacrifice othercommunities and other planets in
order to make a profit inhelping these particular people
flourish.
Right, it's got to be all orone.

(44:26):
And to be very clear, I'm nottalking about any rights that
stakeholders have on you as anenterprise.
I'm talking about yourresponsibilities as an
enterprise, right to humanflourishing, and so the
sustainability andregenerativeness needs to be
understood as a basic part andparcel of what you do as a
business.
It's, just again, just theright thing to do.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
Well, it's interesting.
I was asking Shannon Stoll, whomany of you know, as well as
the CEO of adventure travel andtrade association, and actually
Eric Blatchford, um, not to justmention his name.
He was part of our ATTAspotlight episode and one of the
questions I asked him aroundsustainability was that no one's
going to trust a business todaythat's at ATTA or involved in
that community that doesn't havesustainability at its core.
You just won't last longanymore.

(45:09):
People will not choose yourbusiness, and so that certainly
applies in the adventure travelspace, but not broadly across
travel yet, unfortunately.
But I do see that change.
So, just to finish off thisconversation for both of you,
are you both, I would say,either bullish or confident that
you're starting to see thoseconsumer behavior changes?
I would say either bullish orconfident that you're starting
to see those consumer behaviorchanges.
Maybe I'll ask you Joe first,because obviously a part of that

(45:30):
human flourishing, are peoplenow more than ever willing to
make either sacrifices in termsof price or compromising
sometimes experience for stayingat an eco lodge, Like where?
Where do you see consumerbehavior changing as it relates
to being regenerative andsustainable and choosing
companies?

Speaker 1 (45:46):
Yeah, I think on the consumer side it is changing,
but it's changing slowly and I'mhoping that this book and
others that are talking abouthuman flourishing will help
people realize what they need todo, and I wrote the book very
strongly, not just with this iswhat your business needs to do,

(46:07):
but also a very personal angleright and helping you personally
transform, and transform inways that are beneficial to you
as well as to the world.
That's great.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
And Jake.
Similarly, are you now moreencouraged with the work that
you're doing and the changeyou're seeing in the industry in
2025?
And you know, all of a sudden,we're going to be in 2030 before
we know it and companies likeIntrepid are highlighting that
they're going to get to abillion dollars in sales and, in
fact and this is where thesecompanies that you and I have

(46:37):
worked with are only 10 yearsago with a $50 million companies
, $100 million companies, nowthey're billion dollar companies
and obviously that concern isgrowth also comes with a cost
and so, yeah, keen to understandyour view on this and what
you're seeing, are youoptimistic in the next five
years, that consumers willincreasingly embrace this?

Speaker 3 (46:51):
shift and been on the front lines with a lot of
colleagues like Shannon Stoll inthat movement towards
sustainability, and it has beenslow and I think recently

(47:12):
there's been some positivemomentum that I hope continues
to carry forward.
But I do think that this iswhere the potential of

(47:33):
transformational travel andtransformation economy it gets
people to engage differently.
You apply a growth mindset whenyou're working within this
dynamic and that immediatelygets you to open up and make
different choices as you becomemore aware, and so those
naturally lead to the behaviorchange that I think we need to
really accelerate toward oursustainability or regenerative
initiatives.

Speaker 1 (47:52):
And I do believe that businesses can lead this right.
If they recognize that they'reabout human flourishing, then
they can encourage that amongsttheir employees, which will
affect what they do when theyact as individual consumers, as
well as the customers that theyhave.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
Yeah, no, I really appreciate both your valuable
insights.
On that.
I remain optimistic as well,but I'm always keen to dive into
it just because everyconversation like this takes us
a little step further.
Someone else we may reach inthis conversation may then
reevaluate some of the decisionsthey're making and ensure I
mean bookingcom now has a filterfor, you know, green or
eco-friendly accommodationoptions.

(48:31):
So, like you know, as consumersare given choices, and I think
we've certainly struggled as aindustry with carbon offsets and
, like some of the decisionsthat we make around, how do you
make travel more sustainable?
We often put pressure on people, make people feel guilty and do
things that actually are not.
To one of Joe's big pointsabout making not only humans

(48:52):
flourish but businesses thriveand so we introduce constraints,
or even, anyway, we could.
We could go on with theseexamples, because I'm still, I'm
still fed up of seeing the signin the hotel room about my
towels.
That's not the that's.
That's not the answer.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
No, they're saving money by not washing the towels.
Everybody knows that.
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
I'm like I just want a fresh towel tomorrow morning.
That's all I want.
Did you know that over 20% ofpeople who purchase a ticket
will upgrade to a refundableoption when given the choice?
By offering Refund Protect, youmake it easy for your customers
to protect their ticketpurchase against emergency
circumstances like illness,injury, accidents and more,

(49:35):
whether you're an airline, hotelgroup, tour operator, ticketing
platform, ota or transportsolution.
When you partner with ProtectGroup, your customers get peace
of mind and you generate extrarevenue.
With a Trustpilot score of 4.8stars and over 31,000 reviews,
they treat your customers astheir own, earning the highest
customer ratings in the industry.

(49:56):
To find out more, check outProtect Group at protectgroup.
That's protectgroup.
Attention travelers and traveladvisors.
Are you looking to elevate yourtravel experience beyond the
ordinary?
Then you have to say hello toour good friends at Colette,
where guided travel gets apremium upgrade.
For over 100 years, colette hasbeen crafting expertly guided

(50:18):
tours that go beyond thestereotypes.
With over 170 tours across allseven continents, colette offers
something for every type oftraveler, from culturally
immersive small group journeysto single city stays and even
river cruises.
And with their industry-leadingtravel protection plan, you can
cancel for any reason, up to 24hours before departure.
Plus, when you book air withColette, they even offer a

(50:41):
private chauffeur service to andfrom the airport.
Discover why travelers loveColette and why guided travel is
thriving.
Join the evolution of travel.
Today at GoColettecom, yournext adventure awaits.
That's GoColettecom.
Attention, travel operators,destination management companies
and accommodation providers.

(51:03):
Managing payments doesn't haveto be a source of stress.
Meet Flywire, the modernpayments platform built
specifically for the uniqueneeds of the travel industry.
With Flywire, you can collectpayments from travelers
worldwide with ease, enjoyfaster payouts in your preferred
currency, reduce payment feesand offer your guests flexible
localized payment optionsthey're familiar with.

(51:23):
Not only does Flywire simplifyyour operations, but it also
helps elevate your guestexperience and boost your bottom
line.
That means you can stopworrying about payments and
focus on what you do bestcreating unforgettable travel
experiences.
Discover how Flywire can helpyour business save time, save
money and deliver truly seamlesstransactions.
Visit flywirecom slash traveltrends to learn more.

(51:47):
That's flywirecom slash traveltrends.
And now back to the show.
Spend a lot of time on that,specifically because it's
changing so rapidly.
We're hosting our AI summit, asyou know, later this year.

(52:08):
We did it last year.
The whole reason that we'redoing that is not because I'm an
AI expert, but I see adifference between what's
happening on stage and whatexecutives for various travel
companies have been talkingabout and what I'm truly seeing
on the ground with the startupsand how quickly travel companies
are being transformed by thistechnology, like the potential
that contact centers won't existin a year, the potential that

(52:28):
SEO and Google search as we knowit is going to be cut in half
in the next six to 12 months,not only customer service and
marketing and businessefficiency, and there's all
these incredible gains, and it'sacross many sectors, right From
healthcare to so travel is justone and, if anything, travel is
behind.
So I want to just share thestory and bring people together
that actually have best in caseexamples of how AI is being

(52:51):
applied, so that we can sharethat more broadly and more
people can benefit from it, asopposed to people talking about
how it will or it might, I wantto show how it is already
transforming our travel industry, and so, if we think about this
, though, it's really theconcept of technology and where
technology plays a role and,interestingly, when I have some
of these conversations, I dospeak to organizations that

(53:13):
almost see themselves as anti-AI.
We are WeRoad being a greatexample of that Terrific tour
operator that is very focused onthat kind of youth segment
unplug, connect.
Younger people are moredisconnected than ever.
They're lonely, there's like,just by virtue of having social
networks, and technology has notmade people profoundly happier.
We've certainly seen that andI'm keen to get your views on

(53:34):
this.
But really I just want to havean open discussion about
technology as it relates to thetransformation economy and
specifically travel.
So maybe, jake, let's go backand start with you.
Where do you see technologyplaying a beneficial role in the
transformation economy today,and even if there are some
examples of that.

Speaker 3 (53:51):
Yeah, yeah, I think specifically to travel, because
we could go much more broad onthis and I've got many opinions
on this.
But I think, in regard totravel, tourism and
transformation and we've sort ofhinted at this both Joe and I
as we've gone through thisconversation human capacity,

(54:11):
human potential, humanflourishing, AI, whether people
are ready for it, or not, aregoing to force us back into our
human nature.
It's going to.
You know, knowledge, you know,is, is, is, doesn't have the
same value.
What is going to have value isour ability to be more human,
you know, and people aredemonstrating that they want to

(54:31):
have more connections, they wantto have more friendships, they
want to have longerconversations.
So it's a beautiful opportunityfor forward-looking hotels and
destinations and travelcompanies to really shift their
thinking and really focus onsome of those soft skills, Like
how can we really elevate ourability to connect with others

(54:51):
as human beings?
And that supports the work thatwe're doing perfectly, you know
, I don't know.
How do you feel, Joe?

Speaker 1 (54:58):
Yeah, I would echo that.
I think I think some futuristonce said that every trend sows
a seed for its counter trend.
So as we get more digitallyused, then being more human in
fact does have value in beingwith with humans is what people
will increasingly seek.
I do think, as businesses thatthey should.

(55:18):
They should abandon the term AIand instead talk about IA Right
, not about artificialintelligence, but about
intelligent augmentation, thatit's augmenting humans where
that that technology can be best, not automating them out of,
out of existence.
And but there are a number ofareas where we're tech, not

(55:38):
digital.
Technology in general and inparticular, can help in
transformations.
One the integration aspect thatI talked about, which happens
after, particularly with travel,you're physically together.
Well, technology can reallyhelp you do that, and related to
that is what it's excellent atis customization that you can
better customize what you'redoing.
You get to know individualpeople.

(56:00):
You can remember who they are,what they're about, what their
aspirations are, what thingsthey like, dislike, like the
acronym DNA, their desires,their needs and their
aspirations and then betterdeliver those to them
individually.
And customization is actuallyhow I originally discovered that
progression of economic value.
My first book was on masscustomization and I discovered

(56:21):
that if you customize a service,you automatically turn it into
an experience.
What does it turn an experienceinto?
Is that transformationautomatically turn into an
experience?
What does it turn experienceinto?
Is that transformation?
And then the other thing isI've been talking a lot for a
while about experience platforms.
Right, you mentioned bookingcom.
You know Airbnb.
They're matching platformsallow people to choose what

(56:43):
experiences they want to have.
But there are also operationalexperience platforms that make
the journey go better, whateverthat journey is, and travel in
other places.
The best one in the world, Imean one of the original ones
was you think about the magicband at Disney and how it
connects your experience throughthere.
But the Ocean Medallion atCarnival Cruises and the

(57:06):
Princess Cruise Line.
That gives you a masscustomized itinerary that will
change and adapt to your needs.
What they discover about you,they'll learn about you.
You can even remember thingslike when you're on the pool
deck with your kids, yourfavorite drink is an iced tea
with no lemon, when you borrowyour buddies, it's a mojito, and
when you're in a restaurantwith your spouse, it's a glass
of Chirac.
Right and presciently offeredthose things to you.

(57:28):
Well, now we're starting to seethe rise of transformation
platforms that can help youtransform.
One I'll point to is BetterUp,originally B2B but now B2C and
directly to C, which is acoaching platform, and it's

(57:50):
based on behavioral science andusing machine learning as well
as generative AI.
Um allows you to select amongyou know, they, they, they, they
, they do a diagnosis of yourecommend.
Here's three different coachesthat you can take advantage of
and you can select one of those.
If you don't like those youknow, you swipe left, whatever
the mechanism is, and getanother three and then you can
start to interact with them.
But then AI can, as it does inmany, many weight loss arenas,

(58:15):
and that can provide advicebetween the live human-to-human
coaching sessions.
I hope it doesn't ever replacethe human.
We can augment what they dowhen they're not available, when
you need immediate help and beable to continue you on that

(58:36):
journey.
And I think we're eventuallygoing to get transformation
platforms that, for example,with any travel journey you go
on right again.
You should be able to have thatmass customized journey about
how you differ than other people.
Various things have thereflections, come in at the
right point, have thoseopportunities to spark different
people and prime them, preparethem in different ways based on
what their aspirations are, andthen continue that long after
the physical journey is over.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
So interesting.
And the thing I'd love to askyou on that, joe, given where we
are in 2025 with experiences,what do you think the current
reality of the experienceeconomy is and where it's headed
?
You gave us some great examplesthere of the transformational
economy and some excellentexamples of where companies are
by virtue of technology andmeeting customers where they are

(59:21):
today to meet their needs.
When we think about Meow Wolf,experiences like that that, you
know, during the pandemic,obviously we saw a lot of this.
You know the most common wordwas immersive experiences, and
I'm sure everyone's asked you,Joe, tell me more about this
just big trend of immersiveexperiences.
Everything.
Everyone reads about it, but anevent today is it has to be

(59:41):
immersive, yeah, immersive.
So tell me what you see as thestate of the experience economy
today, in 2025, and where youthink it's headed over the next
few years, and obviously I knowthat's a key theme in your book.
So I'd love to hear your takeon where we are, where we're
headed.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Yeah, the state of the experience economy is very
good, except for the movieindustry.
It's like fully back from thepandemic.
But, as I think both of youalluded to, one of the things
that happened with the pandemicobviously is we couldn't
experience things, we couldn'tget together with people.
Any place you gather is a placeyou didn't want to be, and so

(01:00:20):
when it came back, what I saw,too, again everything I'm
talking about has always beenaround, so just shifting in
desires and in offerings and inofferings.
But there is a shift from merelymemorable experiences that
engage you to more meaningfulexperiences that connect with
who you are individually, whereyou get the sympathetic
vibration that goes back andforth, that says, yeah, that's
meaningful to me, that helps mecreate meaning in my life, but

(01:00:44):
then also towards moretransporting experiences, and
transporting experiences arethose that are transcendent,
that take us out of ourselves,that get us into flow, where all
sense of time washes away, thatgives us awe at God's creation
and at moral beauty and otherthings that give awe.
And that's wheretransformational travel truly

(01:01:06):
excels is those all moments thatyou have uh, uh in nature, uh.
And then, finally, the fourthlevel of experience is
transformative experiences, andagain, people increasingly
desire those transformativeexperiences which, with that
encapsulation, can turn intofull transformations that last
in your life.

(01:01:26):
So, to that degree, thetransformation economy is like
embedded within and alsosuperseding the experience
economy.
Right, they're much moreintertwined than like services
and experiences are, althoughall the economics offerings are
built on top of each other.
You know, the really thing I'dlike to say is that what we're
really shifting from is goodsand services, with an ampersand

(01:01:47):
right Goods and services toexperiences and transformations.

Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
So interesting, so interesting, jake.
How are you seeing this as itrelates to the Transformational
Travel Council and the work thatyou're doing with various
partners?
To Joe's point, where do yousee the experience economy today
and as we transition to thistruly now transformational
economy?

Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, as, as Joe said, I think the
experience economy is, is, is isvery well, uh, established and
received, Uh, but yet there area lot of organizations out there
in travel and tourism thatreally haven't wrapped their
head around that yet, uh, youknow.
So there's still plenty ofopportunity, uh, to just better
understand and be morethoughtful and intentional in
how we design and deliverexperiences.
Transformations is a gamechanger, right, and it's going

(01:02:36):
to really push people out oftheir comfort zones to really
meet that emerging demand, whichis exciting.
But that does require sort ofthis shift into better
understanding and motivating thecustomer or the traveler, right
, and like, one of the ways thatI like to put it.
That, I think, sort ofsimplifies it.
It's a complex topic.

(01:02:57):
Is this shift from like?
In travel we often talk aboutwhere do we want to go and what
do we want to do?
Right, those are typically theconversation starters, you know,
and just shifting it from likewhy, why do we want to go and
how do we want to do it betterchanges the dynamic completely
and it opens up opportunity forpeople to be moved down a

(01:03:17):
transformative path rather thanjust engaging experiences or
stage experiences like, like,like Joe says, and tell, tell
everyone.

Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
You got a pretty robust manifesto for your
organization and I think it'svery meaningful.
I mean, there's various partsof it that certainly really
resonate with me.
But tell everyone where you'reheaded and what your vision is
for this organization oh good,uh, good one.

Speaker 3 (01:03:41):
yeah, you know I, where am I headed when I you
know, when I started down thispath, you know I felt you, you
know in my bones that we wereonto something big.
And you know I feel and get upevery morning committed to
transforming tourism.
You know it's such anincredible lever of change.

(01:04:01):
You know, and if we're able toshift into this transformation
economy you know as a space,over time and it's going to take
time, decades you know that wewill be able to really bring a
positive impact, you know, toour lives at home, our lives in
our community and, you know, ourlives in society.
So you know travel and tourismis our best education.

(01:04:25):
Let's activate it and even ifwe just change one person, one
community at a time, it has thatpotential.
So, as we continue to grow, Imean we're pretty steadfast in
being committed to that end goaland really see that as possible
.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
Yeah, Well, I'm so excited that, given the
workshops, the report, all theinitiatives you have underway
and we'll come to'll come tothat at the end of the
conversation, just to make surethat people can follow up and
connect with you both, which I'msure they're going to be very
keen to do, if they're notalready indulging, as we're
multitasking.
While I would love thisconversation to continue and
potentially we can do a, a parttwo at some point in season six,
we can, we can book and seasonfive and season six together,

(01:05:12):
because that would be, thatwould be awesome.
So, jake, I'm going to come backto you with one other question.
Then I'm going to go to you,joe, with something similar,
which is, you know, for ourglobal listeners, we have, you
know, listeners, 125 countries,and there's thousands of people
listening to this podcast thatare looking for inspiration,
advice and trying to figure outhow they apply it to their tour
operating business, their travelagency there, um and so one of

(01:05:36):
the things I would love for youto be able to share with all of
our listeners is that you know,given all of your experience and
and and wisdom, what would yougive to any of our listeners
that actually do want to adopt atransformational approach.
Obviously, you guys have talkedabout the importance of mindset
being a key part of it, butwhat sort of the advice that you

(01:06:00):
would give to these companiesthat want to stay relevant in
this new transformationaleconomy?
What are the key elements theyneed to be thinking about
factoring in asking themselvesto reevaluate their business to
be relevant in 2025 and beyond?

Speaker 3 (01:06:13):
Uh, yeah, you know, I think the first one would be be
open, stay curious, right, like, see, consider what might be
possible within that, thatframing of, of travel and
shifting it away from a productto a process.
You know, and and and Joementioned the path framework
that we use to prepare adventure, think, honor, like that, that

(01:06:34):
is, is, is is significant, youknow, and so that is engaging
the market, your traveler, yourcustomer, well before any sort
of trip or journey unfolds, andcontinuing that.
You know well, past, they'vereturned and that's that's
really the, the, the opportunitythat I think exists in space,
in our space, is how do you takethose peak experiences that we

(01:06:57):
have when we travel?
We come back home, we landedhome, and then it's so fleeting,
right?
So the the tourism companiesand the hotels that are able to
keep that fire burning and setup different milestones and
check-in points help you sustainmotivation.
You know, that is where theopportunity to create the real
value and impact is.
You know, and who do you thinkthat person's going to call, or

(01:07:19):
where do you think they're goingto go?
You know, three, six months ora year later, when you've helped
them, you know, activate changeand they're ready to go on
another trip.
They're gonna call you yeahexactly.

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
And I just wanna underscore one point the
difference between the way I'veseen marketers operate to
exactly your point is like a CRMor a customer journey.
Post-trip is like, at best, hey, you traveled with us last year
, you wanna travel again, or hey, it's your birthday.
Happy birthday, I really knowyou because I took your birthday

(01:07:51):
down when you like, book thistrip.
So now I'm going to send you abirthday message with the clear,
express personal interest oflike you're ready to book again.
And uh, one of the people thatI uh, so, simon Sinek, I'm a,
I'm a, uh, certainly a fan ofhis work and you know, starting
with why, and one of the thingsthat he talks about more
recently and I really loved,especially in the age of AI, is,
you know, he gave this exampleat the virtuoso conference last

(01:08:12):
year.
It was really, I found it quiteprofound, but it's a simple
concept is that friends check inon each other and friends ask
them how they're doing.
And I, one of the things I, I,I love about the team that I
have, a travel transit, five ofus that run this podcast.
We are, we're in touch all dayon Slack and once in a while
I'll get a message saying how'syour day going, or like how, and
it means the world to me,because actually, you know, I'm,
I'm stressed, I'm overwhelmed,I'm like, I like, and so it's

(01:08:35):
not a hey, can you do this forme, it's like and I actually
make a more conscious effort toask that we always ask how are
you, but a company that reallyis invested in your own personal
interest.
Use, joe's example of likeyou're investing in a business
or a platform that is trulytransformational.
You're going to be asking verydifferent questions than what

(01:08:57):
most companies are asking today,so I love that.
I'm sure it's very valuable tomake our journeys and
experiences more meaningful.
So, joe, along the same lines,but given you, you know you have
such a powerful voice in thebusiness community, I really
wanted to kind of ask you whenwe think about entrepreneurs and
businesses that are looking toinnovate within the

(01:09:20):
transformation economy, whatadvice would you give them?
Clearly, you've got a new bookthat's going to give them a lot
of advice, but what would besome of the key elements that
you would like to be able toshare with them?

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
Well, there's a question that I basically start
and end the new book with whatbusiness are you really in?
Understand what business youare really in, and if you agree
that you're in the business ofguiding transformations, as I
call it right, you're guidingtransformations, then you do

(01:09:50):
ascend to that proposition andthen everything else flows from
there.
Then you can figure out whatyou can do.
And then in the book I've gotchapter after chapter of
frameworks and guidelines forhow you can go about doing that,
including this three-phraseprocess that you need to do,
including the encapsulation thatyou mentioned.
And in fact I've always got topractice what I preach, and so I

(01:10:13):
put encapsulation in the bookitself, right?
So the forward is calledpreparation and I said here I'm
laying out what's going on.
Here's questions to askyourself First one what business
are you really in?
Right?
And then go through, and at theend of every chapter I've got
three or four reflectionquestions and three or four

(01:10:33):
preparation questions thatprepare you to read the next
chapter.
Now, I know most readers arejust going to skip by that.
They may scan it and say, ok,you know, I just want to get on
the time to be able to do thatas a business, then it will be
greatly rewarding in terms ofchanging your thinking and
actually transforming you andhow you think and how you think

(01:10:54):
about business in general andyour business in particular,
about your customers, about youremployees, about the world.
Then that will carry through asyou go through the book and
then the afterward that Imentioned earlier is actually
called reflection.
What I can't do is integrationthrough the book, but I actually
have in there as part of thatreflection talk about the fact
that we're going to have awebsite based off of integration

(01:11:16):
and help people have a seriesof programmatic offerings that
people can actually use tointegrate what they learned in
that book into their lives andand into the businesses.
And I hope that you know alonemakes a a a big difference with
companies.
So it's not just a readingexercise but it becomes a
transformation uh journey.

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
Yeah, no, that's excellent.
This is such valuable feedback,gentlemen, and the one last
question I have for you both andthis is certainly one that
we'll be able to then touch baseon six months from now is, I
would you know, in addition tothe advice you kindly both
shared, looking forward, whetherit's five years or 10 years, if
you might be able to shareeither one prediction or one of
your main trends that you'repaying attention to?

(01:11:58):
That, you think, is how travelis going to change.
Obviously, everything we'retalking about covers this, but
if we could point to onespecific example, jake, let's
start with you Like what are youthinking about when you look
towards 2030 to say this isactually how I think travel is
going to change by virtue ofthis shift to a transformational

(01:12:19):
economy on the horizon.

Speaker 3 (01:12:24):
You know, I I would say that, uh, uh, at least what
I see is is, you know, continuedexpansion into, into
transformations.
Uh, you know, I think we'reliving in a time where it is a
very much a story of separationwe're disconnected from
ourselves, we're connectdisconnected from each other,
we're disconnected from nature.
Uh and uh, I think, as wecontinue down this path, over

(01:12:48):
the next 10-year, tourism isgoing to evolve into
acknowledging the sacredness oftravel and the opportunity that
travel has to honor ourcommonalities, reconnect us with
nature, help us bring moreawareness and patience and
kindness to our lives and to ourworld, and I think that travel

(01:13:11):
and tourism is going to, youknow, help us nurture, you know,
those parts of us that neednurturing, you know, so we can
be better versions of ourselves.
You know, I think you know,people are going to start
recognizing, especially withover-tourism and flight shaming.
You know, going to travel, andwe should, but I think we'll
become more conscious of ifwe're going to travel, we should

(01:13:36):
be focused on some sort ofoutcome, some sort of gaining
more meaning, gaining a newskill, gaining more insight,
being way more intentional aboutit.
It doesn't, it's no longer justan escape right To go sit on
the beach.
If that's the case, go to yourown beach, right?
Let's bring travel back to whatit was.

(01:13:56):
You know what it was meant todo in the first place, and that
was really to improve our livesand improve our society.

Speaker 1 (01:14:02):
And I will echo that word.
You again use Jake, which isintentionality, because what
we'll bring to travel on bothsides of the Jake, which is
intentionality, is what willbring to travel on both sides of
the equation on the consumerside, the traveler side, and on
the business side isintentionality.
That people will more so go intotravel with the intention of
change, with having anaspiration.

(01:14:23):
Right Today is largelyhappenstance that somebody
changes while they travel.
Right, it's the most prevalentmethod, because we are most open
to change when we travel and weget out of our quotidian lives.
Tension of helping themtransform versus just trying to

(01:14:50):
give them a good time or toinstill awe or to get them
thinking about the destinationsthat they're going in, and so
forth.
And then the one other thingI'll say Dan answered your
question is what I talked aboutbefore is, as in five to 10
years, I think, most people willtravel via a transformation
platform, right, or at least anexperience platform, and they'll
actually merge together withtravel, because sometimes you're

(01:15:10):
just the experience, sometimesyou want the full transformation
and again it's all intertwinedtogether, as though you'll use a
transformation to platform totravel and that technology will
enable you to have more humanconnections when you are there,
as well as more transformationcoming out of it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):
Wow, that's very profound thoughts from both of
you, as I should expect.
The one thing I just have toask, though, because I was going
to say I'll leave this for nexttime, but I'm sure all of our
listeners will go.
Dan, you should have asked thatadditional question, which I
get text messages after theselaunch too.
So that's the expectation fromthe audience I'm always trying
to think about.
What they would like me to askis, in addition to what I really

(01:15:52):
want to ask myself.
But, joe and Jake, we youmentioned Airbnb and obviously
they've gone back to experiences.
So this is a question thatwe'll pick up in more detail
next time.
Otherwise, we're going to spend, we're going to, we'll leap
back into this.
But when you talk about atransformational platform, would
Airbnb, by virtue of doingshort-term rentals and
experiences, be an example ofthat?

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
Yes, it can be.
It is not.
I mean, it's already a matchingplatform.
It's not yet an operationalplatform and I think that's a
huge opportunity.
If you go, look at the new tabsthat have put in, it's got a
services tab, but you look atthose services.
Many of those services are, infact, experiences.
You know, like having yournails done is not just about the
nails, it's about peopletouching your hands and treating
you and talking to you, and ifyou're there with friends, right

(01:16:39):
, it's the socialness of it.
And then many of theexperiences are transformations,
like fitness, like spas andlike wellness experiences and so
forth.
But it's the connective tissue.
So I book this and then I'mlooking at where am I supposed
to book that?
What they need to do is thinkabout the journey of what you
book, when and how it all comestogether, and then the
intentionality that you bringinto it and letting the service

(01:17:03):
provider, the experience stageor the transformation guider on
the other end, know yourintentionality, know your
aspiration going into that, andthen great things can happen.

Speaker 3 (01:17:11):
Yeah, I'll build on it.
Knowing the aspiration and thatcomes back to what you
mentioned about Simon Seneca,I'm also a big fan it's one
thing to ask someone their why.
It's another thing to be ableto extract from a second or
third vault perspective whattheir true motivations are.
Are they feeling burnt out?
Are they feeling disoriented?

(01:17:32):
Are they feeling lost?
Are they feeling excited andenergized?
Going into a deeperappreciation for why we actually
travel, not the surface-basedquestions, is key, and platforms
like Airbnb that can start totake steps, baby steps, into
that and ask really, reallypowerful questions on the front

(01:17:55):
end that get travelers or gueststo engage their experience
differently, are going to be thecompanies that really lead in
this next generation of traveland tourism.
That really lead in this nextgeneration of travel and tourism
.

Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
Fantastic.
That's a perfect note to finishour first conversation on who's
going to lead the way.
So I look forward to many ofour listeners providing their
feedback and, by all means, letme know what you want to ask
these gentlemen in our nextconversation so we can prepare
for a part two.
But clearly, you can connectwith them both well before that
and keep in touch witheverything that they're working
on.
So, jake, please tell us thebest ways for people to reach

(01:18:29):
out to you, whether it be onLinkedIn, social channels.
Of course, you got the website,transformationaltravel, that I
definitely encourage everyone tocheck out, but what would be
the best ways to connect withyou?

Speaker 3 (01:18:38):
Yeah, yeah, linkedin is a great place and my email is
jake at transformationaltravel,definitely excited to welcome
more people into our globalcommunity and share ideas and go
on this journey with those thatare really interested in
getting into the transformationbusiness and transformation
economy as it relates to travel.

Speaker 2 (01:18:59):
Joe, obviously we mentioned your Substack, but
clearly there's lots of placespeople can find you on the
interwebs.

Speaker 1 (01:19:07):
Yes, the information superhighway, again, you
mentionedtransformationsbooksubstackcom.
Linkedin.
It's slash, joe Pine, very easyJ-O-E-P-I-N-E.
And then the company website isstrategichorizonscom.
Strategichorizons with an S dotcom, fantastic.

Speaker 2 (01:19:27):
Well, thank you again , joe.
Thank you, jake, especiallyJake.
Thanks for bringing us alltogether.
Thank you, joe, for making thetime for this.
It was such a valuable andimportant discussion and I can't
thank you both enough and Ilook forward to keeping in touch
with you both.
Thank you, dan.

Speaker 3 (01:19:40):
Hey Dan, you're doing great work.

Speaker 2 (01:19:54):
We appreciate you, dan, very honored to be here.
And joe, thanks for for jumpingin with us.
Man hey, thanks for bringingalong thanks.
Thanks so much for joining uson the latest episode of travel
trends.
I really hope you have enjoyedthis deep dive into the world of
in destination experiences aspart of season five, sponsored
by our friends over at pernoricard.
We started with christianlatchell from brc imagination
arts.
We then had laura cilioat fromPernod Ricard join us and today,
as you just heard, we had thelegendary Joe Pine, the
best-selling author of theExperience Economy and the

(01:20:15):
upcoming Transformation Economy,as well as Jake Haupert, the
co-founder of theTransformational Travel
Institute.
I found this conversation soinspiring and I'm absolutely
delighted that they're gonnarejoin us in season six to
continue the conversation, and Ijust wanted to make sure that
all of our listeners know thatwe do post clips and highlights
on our social channels, so besure to check out Instagram,

(01:20:36):
youtube and LinkedIn.
And then don't forget tosubscribe to our monthly
newsletter, which you can findon TravelTrendsPodcastcom.
Thanks again to the PernodRicard team for sponsoring this
series.
We're so excited to be bringingthis theme back for season six.
Feel free to reach out to me atany time, dan at travel trends
podcastcom for ideas,suggestions for our upcoming

(01:20:58):
season six.
We have one more episode instore for you now.
In season five, we have rodcuthbert joining us next week,
who is the founder of viator.
We thought it was a great wayto not only cap off this season,
but also as a follow on to theconversations about
in-destination experiences.
So make sure that you aresubscribed on the streaming
platform of your choice to benotified when new episodes go

(01:21:21):
live, and we'll look forward tohaving you joining us next week.
Until then, safe travels.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How the Transformation Economy Is Redefining Tourism with Jake Haupert and Joe Pine

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

How the Transformation Economy Is Redefining Tourism with Jake Haupert and Joe Pine

Stuff You Should Know