Innovation, Leadership & the Future of Travel with Erik Blachford

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Want a clear-eyed look at where travel is headed next? Erik Blachford, early Expedia leader turned board member at Zillow, Hipcamp, and Fora, joins us to unpack what the future that actually works looks like — AI behind the scenes, humans up front, and real-world experiences that no screen can replace.

We trace Erik’s journey from building one of the first online travel agencies to backing companies that are reshaping how people stay, plan, and explore. From outdoor escapes to modern travel advising, his perspective connects decades of innovation with what’s coming next.

Erik shares how the smartest teams are using AI right now to compress product cycles, improve workflows, and sharpen marketing efficiency. He’s candid about the limits too, noting that most gains today are cost savings rather than new revenue streams. 

At the heart of the conversation is human connection. Travelers still crave reassurance, curation, and accountability, one reason multi-day tours remain mostly offline and travel advisors are seeing a renaissance. Platforms like Fora illustrate what “human in the loop AI” really means: powerful tools empowering trusted people. We also explore a growing countertrend to constant connectivity, including wellness travel, digital detoxes, national park road trips, RV adventures, and the return of small-group journeys. When travelers set their devices aside, communities form in trails, lodges, and around shared tables — and that’s the magic they remember.

See Erik speak live at Phocuswright (Nov 18-20). Save $250 with code:TravelTrendsSpecial25. 

👉 Listen to Innovation, Leadership & the Future of Travel Now

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:04):
Mark Zuckerberg talking about um everybody's got
room for 12 friends in theirlife.
They only have three.
Well, we could fill the othernine with AI.
I couldn't agree, I couldn'tdisagree with anything more
profoundly than I disagree withthat.

SPEAKER_03 (00:15):
Right?

SPEAKER_02 (00:16):
And uh, you know, I feel like there's a certain art
to life, and and the more thatthings become technical, it
feels like we're trying to makeall of life transactional.

SPEAKER_00 (00:26):
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Travel Trends.
This is your host, DanChristian, and today we're gonna
be speaking to Eric Blatchford,who is a true captain of
industry, the second ever CEO ofExpedia, and wait till you hear
the incredible things that Erichas done across his career and
how much everyone is gonna beable to learn and benefit from
our conversation with Erictoday.

(00:47):
But I just wanted to give somecontext since Eric and I had a
chance to sit down and recordthis live in person in
Washington, D.C.
a few weeks ago at the arrivalconference.
And I just published the fullfive-hour episode.
Thanks so much to Zach fornavigating that whole
production.
But we recorded so many amazinginterviews.
We wanted to incorporate as manyconversations as we could, and

(01:09):
we certainly did.
So you can look for that fullfive-hour episode, watch it in
parts, but we've been gettingsome fantastic feedback already
from certainly the team atArrival, but many others who
have been meeting some of theamazing people that come
together for that conference.
I hope you enjoy the fullarrival episode.
And we have been in anincredibly busy travel schedule.
I've just arrived back fromWorld Travel Market in London,

(01:31):
and I'm heading to Focus Rightin San Diego next week.
If you are interested in joiningus in San Diego, we actually
still have the discount code onthe homepage of our website,
traveltrendspodcast.com, so youcan save$250 and join us next
week for the FocusRightconference and also be featured
on what will be our last eventspotlight for 2025.

(01:53):
We have one more coming outlater this week.
We have the spotlight episodefrom the Adventure Travel and
Trade Association, which isrelevant to today's conversation
because Eric Blatchford is aboard member of ATTA.
But I just wanted to highlightlast week at WTM, Matthew
Gardner and the team kindlyinvited me back.
I did a presentation last yearon the top five marketing trends

(02:15):
for 2025.
And this year we did the top sixAI marketing trends for 2026,
which was off of the back of ourAI summit, which was incredibly
well attended.
We had so many amazing speakers,and I put together this six-part
highlight of the amazingrecommendations that came out of
that conference.

(02:35):
And they moved our session fromWednesday to Thursday because
it's a three-day conference.
And Thursday is the day when alot of people tend to not turn
up and it's much quieter at WTM.
So they put a huge effort thisyear into getting people to stay
on the Thursday.
And that included moving oursession from Wednesday to
Thursday.
Now, for those of you who werethere, remember our session from

(02:56):
2024.
We actually had about 150 peoplethat couldn't get into the
theater, and it was such anincredible turnout.
Well, I was a little bitconcerned that we would have
like a half-filled theater onThursday.
And uh indications were strongearly on last week when we had
our event in London.
We had uh over 200 people turnout for our VIP get together as

(03:18):
a thanks to the travel massivecommunity for supporting our AI
Summit.
And then on the Thursday, uh theevent was is lined up and it was
an amazing turnout.
The theater was full, it wasstanding room only, and
unfortunately, some peoplecouldn't get in.
I just wanted to say thanks toall of our listeners.
We sent our newsletter out justbefore the session, and we
certainly have been promoting iton our social channels as well.

(03:39):
But it's so wonderful to see ourlisteners come together and so
many of you there for oursession.
So a huge thank you for me toall of you for being a part of
WTM and and joining our session.
That was certainly one of themost fun uh sessions I've ever
been a part of.
So thanks again to Matthew formoderating and the World Travel
Market team for inviting traveltrends and myself to be a part

(04:01):
of it.
We certainly look forward to2026.
We've had a massive 2025, andI'm ready for one more trip and
then planning everything out fornext year with our team.
But today, we are just inbetween our deep dive into the
world of emerging tour operatorsthat Tour set a kindly sponsor.
We have three fantastic episodesthat you've just heard.
And coming up next, aftertoday's Captain of Industry

(04:24):
spotlight with Eric Blatchford,we're going to be diving into
the world of loyalty, which issponsored by our friends over at
Loyalty Co.
and Status Match.
More details to follow on themlater.
But today I really wanted tobring in Eric Blatchford into
season six of our podcast onCaptains of Industry.
He is such an inspiringentrepreneur.
He has such a remarkableexperience with boards.

(04:46):
He's joined the Forum board mostrecently.
He's been with Zillow.
Just wait until you hear hisstory.
I start at the beginning so thatwe can get his background to
talk about investing and thefuture of travel, which I found
very reassuring because he takesa really interesting perspective
on AI, and that is very muchabout the human connection.
He owns a camp, as you'll hear,in Quebec, where he grew up.

(05:07):
And it's very much about gettingpeople, in this case, students,
to be connected in the realworld and away from their
devices.
And it's one of the things Ithink we all love about travel.
So, ladies and gentlemen, let'swelcome in one of the true
captains of industry, EricBlatchford.
Eric, thanks so much for joiningus.
Happy to be here.
For sure.
And it's great to have you onour Captains of Industry series.

(05:30):
Given your impressivebackground, the introduction
that people just heard.
Obviously, you joined us oncevery kindly when we were in
Denver.
You and I had a chance to sitdown and you were on the
Adventure Travel and TradeAssociation episode.
I know you're an investor there.
So it was great.
Many of our listeners have heardthat you know brief conversation
that we had.
But today on the Captains ofIndustry series, I want our

(05:50):
listeners to get a much fullerunderstanding of your background
and what you've accomplished inthe industry, but specifically
so we can get into the bigtrends that you're seeing in
2025 and beyond.
So, Eric, if you wouldn't mindjust giving everyone a little
bit of your background and howyou got into the travel industry
and your key role at Expedia andwhat's happened since.

SPEAKER_02 (06:10):
I think I think of myself more as a lieutenant of
industry than captain ofindustry, but that's very kind
of you.
Um sure, I was on the foundingteam at Expedia, which uh as
people might know was uh withinMicrosoft.
It was incubated there, and thenwe we spun it out as a public
company in 1999, which seemslike an awful long time ago now.
But it really was one of thevery first of the online travel
distribution platforms, the theOTAs, as everybody calls them

(06:31):
now.
And uh I was running marketingat the time we spun out, and
then I ended up being the secondCEO and took that through the um
uh the sale to IAC and thesubsequent integration of
hotels.com, hotwire, uh kind ofbuilding the expedia that you
know today.
Um from there I went on uhworked for an environmental
services company calledTerapass, doing uh carbon
offsets and trying to fight thegood fight with uh climate

(06:53):
change, which uh I think allpresent evidence suggests was
was not very effective.
And then uh and then ran a touroperator called Butterfield and
Robinson, uh very high-end sortof cycling tours before heading
off into the investment worldwith uh TCV, where I was there
as a venture partner for uhabout eight years.
Um and then since the pandemic,I've been on my own doing uh
angel investing, sitting on abunch of boards, including uh

(07:15):
consumer tech, travel, andoutdoor companies mostly.

SPEAKER_00 (07:18):
And CC TCV, just everyone knows, was one of the
big investors in Tour Radar.
Tor Radar, of course, is uh abig partner of ours.
They're one of our sponsors ofour AI Summit.
So you know Travis and the team.
You were, as I understand it,the first chairman of the
company.

SPEAKER_02 (07:30):
Yeah, I was I was very early in investor in Tour
Radar.
I'm a huge fan.

SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
Yeah.
And so that's one of the thingsI want to talk about is the
multi-day tour space becauseit's one of the areas that have
let has really lagged behindother sectors of travel.
And when you and I spoke at theATTA, it's one of the things I
was keen to ask you, and youwere highlighting just that OTA
is here we are 20 years later,and they still don't get the
multi-day tour segment.
And you gave some specificreasons as to why that's still
the case.
But tell everyone a little bitabout your current reality.

(07:55):
So I know you you you actuallyyou bought the camp that you
went to in uh when you grew up.
So you're originally Canadian,but you went to business school
in the States.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But tell everyone a bit aboutyour life now and some of the
things that you're involved inbecause it's really impressive.
The the boards that you're on,and again, I know I'll talk you
up and you're a very humbleperson, but um but I think it'll
be interesting for our listenersto know all the things you're
across.

SPEAKER_02 (08:16):
Um well, listen, I've I mean I've been lucky with
the stuff that's sort of come myway and sort of hit the radar.
Um and uh I what what Ibasically have done is sort of I
I guess it i if you had to lookat the different buckets, the
kind of a consumer tech bucket.
Um so I'm on the Zillow board, abig real estate company, and in
the past I've been on Glassdoor,I was on the Peloton board for
years, uh big health and fitnesscompany.

(08:36):
Probably people know Peloton,um, and uh the nerdy board,
which is an ed tech company.
So that's but that's beeninteresting.
And then I've done a lot ofstraight-up travel stuff, and
I'm still on.
I just joined the board at uhfora travel, for instance.
Saw that, yeah.
Uh I'm on the board at uh BusBud, which is a big marketplace
for for buses and stuff.
And then I've also got uh a bigbucket of outdoor uh stuff.
So I'm on the hip camp uh board,and I do, I I in fact do own a

(08:59):
summer camp, a wilderness summercamp in Quebec that 500 kids a
summer.
Uh no screens, no tech, justlearn how to paddle a canoe.
Uh and I uh you know I'm aninvestor in outside uh inc, you
know, I I I really I really likethat intersection of technology,
travel, and the outdoors, and ofcourse ATTA, which we we talked
about before.
And I've been lucky enough toget to pursue it.
You know, it's nice.

SPEAKER_00 (09:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
I know you obviously you are areal outdoor enthusiast and
clearly you love travel, butyou've been able to successfully
combine your passion, yourinterest with a number of very
successful travel organizations,obviously, starting with
Expedia, but also you've beenoutside the travel industry with
companies like Zillow andsitting on the board of
obviously one of the biggestreal estate uh technology
companies in the U.S.

(09:40):
And certainly HipCamp is one ofmy favorite companies.
I just love hip camp.
I lived in California during thepandemic, and I used hip camp
all the time.
And it was, you know, peoplethat had farms where all of a
sudden it was, you know, verymuch the Airbnb for camping.
And that's an exciting business.
Tell tell us a little bit moreabout HipCamp for our listeners
that may not be familiar.

SPEAKER_02 (09:57):
Oh, sure.
I mean, hip camp is basically agreat idea translated into a
company.
And the the great idea, AliciaRavassio is the uh the CEO
there.
Um and she realized that therewas a lot of the best campsites
in California.
I mean, it's all over the placenow, but just originally
California were actually locatedon private land.
And in particular, she she wasone uh she saw one that was
close to a surf break, and sherealized maybe you just go to

(10:19):
the owners of the private landand say, Hey, could we actually
camp here?
And of course, people have beendoing, you know, cowboy camping
for years and years, but she wasthe one who actually said, wait
a sec, maybe a lot of thesefolks could actually, you know,
a lot of the campers would bewilling to pay a few bucks, and
a lot of the owners are like,Yeah, actually, it's great to
have people on my land.
I don't mind.
And so what's happened is acrossprivate land all over the place,
and uh the company's bigger now.

(10:40):
Now it's expanded into RVs andcommercial campgrounds.
I think I think Kipcamp now hasmore places to camp than any
other place in the U.S.
Is that right?
But it started off that was sortof the beginning of it.

SPEAKER_00 (10:49):
Yeah, no, and I that's why I love that concept.
And clearly you've beenattracted to businesses that are
solving unique problems, andyou've gotten in very early with
a number of these companies.
And so I'd love to understand,given that we had Chris Hemeter
lead off this season, and one ofthe things we really focused on
was investing in travel in 2026,and he highlighted that he's
never been more motivated andexcited.
He doesn't he's never seen as anexciting time to invest in

(11:11):
travel as as as we have today,which was a great quote to lead
off our season.
Um but I'm genuinely keen tounderstand your perspective on
uh investment and the types ofcompanies you look at, like the
stage of investing.
Obviously, you're fairly early.
Um, but tell us what some of thethings you're looking for when
people are pitching you oninvesting in a travel venture.

SPEAKER_02 (11:32):
Yeah, sure.
I mean it's that old thing aboutyou know, uncertainty breeds
opportunity, right?
And right now, I I mean I Idefinitely can't think of a time
when there's been moreuncertainty uh in the market
right now.
And of course, a huge amount ofthat is AI, but there's more to
it than that.
It's also that a lot of thedistribution channels are
starting to mature, people arelooking for new ways to do
things.
And and you know, I guess ofcourse in the internet that

(11:52):
happened, and of course thathappened again with mobile.
And here it is, it's more thanjust AI, it's sort of a
recognition that all the thingsthat have worked are are are
still working, but there's allthis room for innovation, and
you're starting to see it pop upin all kinds of interesting
ways.
And I I think partly justbecause AI makes it so much
cheaper to write code, we'regonna see a huge upswing in

(12:13):
innovation because it's gettingreally easy to just try stuff
out.
And I'm really impressed by byhow many people are coming up to
me and how many people arepitching me on stuff that's
that's not, you know, um, hey,why don't we like use other
people's trip photos to planyour trip?
Like we've we've heard enough ofthose, you know.
But people starting to come upwith really interesting stuff
around um, oh, I don't know,figuring out how to size

(12:35):
yourself up against yourcompetitive uh your market and
and really sort of understandinghow to dive deep in data and use
it in new ways in the travelmarket, which is you know, it's
not the sexy stuff, but boy, canit ever help your business.

SPEAKER_00 (12:47):
For sure.
One of the things that Christalked about that I know really
resonated with our listeners isthat he gave some beneficial
advice to the startups out therethat listen to this podcast, and
one of them was don't cold pitchour organization.
We don't take uh generic emailsinto Thayer.
And so one of the things hehighlighted was that if you
can't get an introduction to me,that's your answer.

(13:08):
Is that and so how does it workfor you?
And I'm I'm asking you thatquestion to avoid the scenario
where people just all of asudden find out about you, try
to connect with you on LinkedIn.
I'm sure you get inundated allthe time.
And I love that you walk amongstus at conferences like this,
given how high profile you are.
But you know, when people aretrying to connect with you, or
in general, we're trying toconnect with an investor like
you, what would be yourrecommendation to do it

(13:29):
properly?

SPEAKER_02 (13:30):
Uh well, I'm not a firm, I'm just me.
Right.
So even if people do reach outdirectly, I just yeah, there's
only so much bandwidth.
Sure.
However, having said that, um,the truth is I actually like
listening to things from allover the place, and and plenty
of people approached me atconferences.
Um I've I have in fact, I'm I'mbringing it upon myself here.
I have in fact even invested insomebody who reached out to me

(13:50):
cold on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 (13:52):
Yeah, you might know Sheree Robinson, who founded
Taste Master Taste Makers Africayears ago.
She reached out cold.

SPEAKER_03 (13:58):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (13:58):
And on the second or third trial, I was like, this
person is really persistent.
She's really let's get in touch.
And so I invested it.
It was and and you know,actually, she had a great run
until the pandemic.
But so uh so you know, althoughyou know you just never know
where good ideas are gonna comefrom.
I think if I were a firm, Iwould definitely feel the same
way Chris does.
Yeah.
As it is, I feel like I thinkyou know, lots of people pepper
me on LinkedIn.
I don't think everybody reallyexpects a response, and and and

(14:21):
hopefully they don't becauseit's just too much.
I'm just one guy.

SPEAKER_00 (14:24):
Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
I appreciate you sharing thattoo, because I think that's
inspiring.
And again, this is where youknow there's many different ways
to uh on your path to success.
And I have heard other VCs talkabout the fact that once you
have a successful business,don't worry about finding us,
we'll find you.

SPEAKER_02 (14:38):
And well, yeah, that's true.
But but it's also, you know, ifyou're a really early stage
angel person like me, I mean,part of the part of the
attraction of it is you got tojust be curious about what's
going on, and you have toactually like sort of working
with people as they get stuffstarted.
I mean, I right now there's twoor three different places of
people I can think of where I'mkind of just a mentor.
I'm not an investorparticularly.
That's not the way it workedout, but I like what they're

(15:00):
doing.
I mean, there's a bunch ofpeople doing all kinds of
interesting stuff around kind ofaffinity travel.
Not exactly a tour operator, notexactly a community building.
I just find it interesting and Itry to help what I can, even if
there's no investmentpossibility.
Yeah, sometimes that's how youlearn to inform the stuff that
you do end up investing in.

SPEAKER_01 (15:18):
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SPEAKER_00 (17:09):
And now back to the show.
The other thing I wanted to askyou too, given the high profile
boards you're on, andspecifically for a so Jake
Peters is a friend of mine.
He's a CTO, one of theco-founders.
He's fantastic.
Yeah.
He's speaking at our uh AIsummit.
So depending when uh you'relistening to this, I would
definitely encourage checkingout Jake Peters' session because
he is so forward-thinking.

(17:30):
And the whole team over there, Imean, they're you know, they're
just raised$60 million, as youwell know, uh, now joining their
board.
So what I wanted to ask you,Eric, was that when you're
looking at companies and tryingto decide where you're going to
invest your time, to your pointabout the fact you're, you know,
your bandwidth is limited, andso you have to make very
strategic decisions whether itcomes to joining a board like
that.
So this is where it's a verydifferent stage of growth when

(17:53):
they can reach out to you tosay, would you like to join our
board?
What do you look for when thoseoffers come your way?
And you know, what ultimately isit that makes you say yes?

SPEAKER_02 (18:02):
Oh well, uh, everyone is different.
I mean, uh honestly, you know,you I I I wish I could give you
some sort of a framework.
I can't really.
I mean, the case of fora, uh tome, it's sort of this
combination of I love theecosystem.
I've I've sort of uh for I'vealways sort of been around kind
of the um uh the travel, traveladvisor uh uh ecosystem and
understand it pretty well.
And it was really needed someinnovation.

(18:24):
Here comes fora, greatinnovation.
And then the more I looked atit, the more I thought this
could be one of the greatcompanies in terms of
human-in-the-loop AI.
I mean, imagine taking all thesetravel advisors who you trust
and then giving them AI toolsthat are super powerful, but
actually probably take a littletraining that your typical
consumer traveler isn't gonnado.
Right.
And also just the fact that Imean, you know, business travel,

(18:47):
small business travel, even sortof visiting friends and
relatives has been kind ofboiled down to it's almost like
ATMs, right?
But but leisure travel, thestuff that you're dreaming about
that you want advice on, thathasn't been yet.
And I think the idea thatthere's a human in the loop
there and is often somebody thatyou trust, because a lot of the
fora advisors are actuallyhelping their own friends or
their friend circle.
I just think it's there's a kindof a magic in there because

(19:09):
you're you're blending the kindof the social transaction and
the commercial transaction in away that I think can really work
well.
So plus that, and I just, youknow, Henley and Evan and Jake
are just amazing in deal.
It it always at the end of theday, it always comes down to I'm
never gonna join a board orinvest someplace if I don't
think the founders are great.

SPEAKER_00 (19:26):
Yeah.
Well, just on fora for anothermoment here is that you know,
what's interesting for metracking your career, given that
you ran XPedy at a time whereeveryone was convinced that
travel advisors were gonna goaway.
And this whole concept of anOTA, to use an example of an
ATM, like that, you know, anautomated telling machine.
My mom worked at a royal bank inCanada for many years.
So she was a teller.
And it was always that thetellers are gonna go, so you

(19:48):
need to retrain yourself tobecome a financial planner,
which is what she did.
So she, you know, when sheworked her way up in the bank to
be able to manage people'sfinances as opposed to just and
but tellers are still there.
But to travel advisor, I mean,this is where Matthew Upchurch
is virtuoso, whom you know aswell, the idea that it was a
career versus a job, you weren'tjust an order taker, you were
someone that was actually goingto help really truly advise.

(20:10):
So an agent versus an advisor.
And so that idea of an onlinetravel agency was this big
disruptor, and here you are 25years later, taking up a board
spot on fora, which is you knowpowering travel advisors with
incredible technology.
So where I'm going with this isI'm I'm keen to get your take on
where the industry is in themoment with B2B and travel

(20:32):
advisors and the role they playin the customer journey because
it seems like they areundergoing an incredible
renaissance, and companies likethem, there's so many people
that I know that have becomefora travel advisors.
They're now selling travel,booking travel for their family.

SPEAKER_02 (20:45):
Tell us a little bit more about what you're seeing
there.
First of all, you're looking atone.
I went through all the trainingand I've had a great time.
But I I've bothered all my oldcollege friends saying, hey,
give me some travel to book foryou so I can understand the
platform.
And it works great.
You know, it's it's it's it'sreally good.
Um look, I think it's I thinkthe thing about travel over the
next little while is it's sortof a choose your own adventure
kind of situation where uhdepending on the kind of trip

(21:06):
you want to take, you'reprobably gonna want to use
different kinds of channels.
And so, you know, leisureleisure travel that involves a
sort of a collaborative dreamingprocess.
You know, a four-agent'sfantastic.
Um the quick in and out of NewYork City, need a hotel for two
nights, and I know exactly whatpart of town I want to stay in.
Expedia is still great, right?
It just it sort of depends onwhat what you need.
If you're if you're bound upwith a bunch of corporate policy

(21:28):
stuff, yeah, you're you'reyou're tied to a TMC.
If on the other hand, I don'tknow, you're going to a you want
a specific cruise thing, youprobably get to go to a cruise
specialist agency.
So I I think it just sort ofdepends.
I will say one kind of funnything on the uh, you know,
everything old is new again, uhtravel agent thing.
Um, my big introduction totravel agents actually was at
Expedia when we bought classiccustom vacations.

(21:50):
So now known, I think, just asclassic vacations, which is
based in Hawaii, and the guy uhwho owned it, Ron Letterman, was
the one who was like, Oh, youguys don't understand.
90% of my business comes fromtravel agents, and that it will
always be that way.
And I will never distributethrough you guys the way that I
distribute through them becausethey actually know what they're
doing.
And he was blood busting ourchops a little bit.

(22:10):
Um, but you know what?
It introduced me to the the wewe had a travel agency advisory
board back then, and I'm talkingalmost 20 years ago now.
But I suddenly I sat in a roomand I realized, wait a sec,
these are hard-drivingentrepreneurs, these are
incredibly smart and drivenpeople, and we need to be on
onside with them, not trying tooppose them.
And very similar to sort of theway that the uh the bank teller

(22:31):
world evolved, that's what'shappened with travel agents too.
And now the travel agent oftoday is a long, long way from
the person who would just sortof, you know, book a paper
ticket for you in the, I don'tknow, 1980s or something.
It's a completely differentbreed of person.

SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
Well, it's interesting, even when we look
at the example with Tour Radar,and we were 10 years on from
Tour Radar first coming onto thescene and then the major
investment that you had led,being the chairman of that
organization, even today, youknow, 70% of their bookings
still occur offline, which isstill a shocking number given
what the industry we we thoughtwas going to happen with making
them uh bookable in real time.
That was the kind of the bigpush.

(23:05):
But still, people want to speakto another human, they want to
get reassurance, they've gotquestions about visas and
packing and um the differentdestinations, so they still
trust a human, even though AI isnow playing a role.
But obviously, you know, as asyou said, uh what's old is new
again.
Like that's actually somethingthat was there before and it
still exists.
So I'm keen to get your take onon the overall trends, Eric.

(23:26):
And obviously, we're sittinghere at the arrival conference.
You are a key part of the firstsession, the very first
executive day that they heldhere.
And I'm keen to know some of thebig insights and takeaways from
your presentation.
I didn't have a chance to attendyesterday.
I know people were raving aboutit.
And so I really wanted to getyour take on some of the big
trends.
But yeah, tell us a little bitabout the presentation and what
you came here to uh to talkabout.

SPEAKER_02 (23:48):
Uh sure.
I mean, so I so I love thearrival conference, and I always
have it.
This is the first time they'vedone this arrival executive
summit.
So it was a really goodaudience, about a hundred sort
of uh movers and shakers in thebusiness, owners, owners and
founders mostly of experiencedproviders.
And so uh Bruce and uh andDouglas asked me, you know, tell
us, tell us, give us a take forwhat's coming through the
boardrooms, what are theconsiderates sort of

(24:08):
considerations you're seeing,not just at experiences, but
across the board.
And so I looked at sort of thetravel industry writ large.
I said, well, there's a coupleof trends that are um not gonna
go away anytime soon.
One is climate change.
It's here, it's real, thekeeling curve keeps going up.
Uh there's no institutionaldesire to do anything about it.
And I said, So here's an easyprediction.

(24:28):
Things are just gonna keep goingthe way that they're going.

SPEAKER_03 (24:31):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (24:31):
And of course, you know, some people are sort of
laughing, some people are kindof groaning.
And I'm like, I'm not trying tobe political.
I'm just saying, I think that'sthe fact on the ground.
And, you know, practicallyspeaking, if you're in the ski
business, the season is gonnakeep getting shorter.
If you're in the day tourbusiness in the south of Spain,
summer is gonna get harder andharder for you to do things.
And you know, it's just sort ofsay, okay, so that's a trend,

(24:53):
but on a more serious note, itdoes mean that in your business
planning, you gotta be buildingthat in.
Um, another thing I talked aboutwas was border policy in the
U.S.
Basically, I made the point toeverybody.
I said, listen, everyone in thetourism industry is doing a bit
of a victim thing.
Say, why are they targeting us?
And I was like, they're nottargeting you.
This isn't about travel at all.
This is about an immigrationpolicy.

(25:14):
And because about, you know,some it depends on the numbers
you look at, but about half ofillegal immigration in the U.S.
comes through overstay touristvisas.
It just makes sense that, ofcourse, they're trying to cut
down on the number of touristvisas.
And of course they want to makeit less attractive to come to
the U.S.
And when it comes to the uh, youknow, the issue of some place
like Canada, well, that it's notabout tourism, it's about trade
policy.

(25:35):
And you can disagree with thetrade policy.
I mean, I'm a dual citizen, Idon't like the fact that the
policy is basically trying totake Canadian manufacturing jobs
and move them back to the U.S.
And I completely understand whyCanadians are angry.
But there's nothing targetedhere at the tourism industry,
and that trend is not gonna goaway either, because you know,
you can't sort of sit there andsay, well, something's gonna

(25:56):
happen in the midterms that'sgonna reverse all the policy.
That that's not that's not thereal world, that's not how it
works.
And so I was trying to say tothe group stop being victims
about this and just recognizethat for the next, you know,
good stretch of years, thereputation of the U.S.
as a place to come on vacation,you know, it's gonna take a
while to recover.
It just is.
And you you can't you can't getaround that.
So so I talked about that.

(26:17):
I've talked about AI quite abit, of course.
But um, you know, I also uhtalked about my favorite thing,
which is the the uh the counterAI, which is uh, you know,
people getting back into IRLbecause I think it's so
important for people to sort ofembrace their inner kind of
adventurer and and actuallyinteract with with the real
world.
And and one nice thing aboutarrival, you know, that the
group here is allexperiences-based, and a huge

(26:39):
number of those are guidedexperiences.
So you actually get to a placeand you're being walked around a
city or you're doing a thingwith another person who's local
to that person.
And I I mean, I I understandthere's gonna be a role to play
for AI and the on on the groundexperience, but nothing, nothing
could possibly replace thathuman connection.

SPEAKER_00 (26:56):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Well, you mentioned a number offascinating trends there, and I
want to go back and unpack acouple of them, especially the
geopolitical, because that'sactually something that I know
given our global listeners, wehave listeners of about 125
countries.
And one of the things that Ijust want to highlight to them
from your perspective as we havethis conversation here in the
U.S.
and in Washington, and we thinkabout the global ramifications,
and the reason I want to diveinto this is because you know I

(27:18):
had the privilege to oversee allof the marketing and digital
activity for one of the world'slargest uh privately owned
travel companies for nearly 10years.
And the reason that I I raisethis in in that context is
because we had the good fortuneof being able to find other
markets to drive sales.
If you are a standalone touroperator in a single city and

(27:39):
people are not crossing theborder, for example, there's
very little you can do aboutthat.
You're kind of it's totallybeyond your control.
But I want to talk about thefact that there are
winners-losers all the time withthese big travel shifts and
trends.
And that was literally the theum the concept of the show was
finding out what are the trendspost-pandemic, what's the same,
what's different in customerbehavior.

(27:59):
And I always want to highlightopportunities for growth.
And so what I wanted to ask youis given these geopolitical
events, the realities that we'recurrently in for all the reasons
that you've mentioned, what aresome of the growth opportunities
that you see as a result ofthat?
And what I'm asking is you'vegot load factors that are uh uh
flight load factors that arereduced inbound to the US,
people are going to otherdestinations, and Canada, one of

(28:21):
the big things that's happeningthere, of course, is there's
this rise in domestic tourism.
So all of a sudden there's ahuge boom of Canadians exploring
their own backyard.
But interestingly, I'll say onelast thing and I'll hand it over
to you, is even Americans nowwho are concerned about
traveling abroad for concern ofhow they're going to be
perceived or received in thedestination, they're also
choosing to do what I rememberseeing so clearly living in LA

(28:44):
when the pandemic started.
Once people could travel, theywere s exploring all the
national parks.
And that's exactly what'shappening now.
We're seeing people returning tonational parks, they're renting
RVs and in in high numbersagain.
So tell us, Eric, from yourperspective, what are you seeing
as based on those geopoliticpolitical factors, what are some
of the growth opportunities on aon a global scale that you're

(29:04):
looking at or paying attentionto?

SPEAKER_02 (29:06):
Well, I mean, you you just hit on a couple of
things.
Um I mean, what one is sort ofthe redistribution of travel
from countries, you know, peoplewho would have been going to the
US um now are gonna go otherplaces.
I mean, you know, we're not inthe middle, I mean, you know,
knock on wood, we're not in themiddle of some global recession
here.
I mean, people are stilltraveling.
Right.
They're just not traveling tothe US, they're gonna go
somewhere else.
So, I mean, uh, instead of goingto New York City, maybe you're

(29:26):
gonna go to Montreal from aplace like London.
Well, great, that's good for theMontreal economy, for the
tourist economy.
The the rub, of course, is thatthe people who run the day trips
in New York are not the samepeople who run the day trips in
Montreal.
And I would say it's a very goodtime right now, if if over the
last five years, as a uh as sortof a day experience operator, if
you have expanded into multiplemultiple geographies, you're

(29:48):
pretty happy about that now.
And you're you're allocatingresources.
Um when it comes to nationalparks, it's sort of an
interesting thing.
The um, you know, this year forthe first time in a while,
Yosemite was actually down 10%year over year because people
are.
A little worried because so muchcutting uh there's been so many
cuts to the federal uh uh frontto the federal park system in
the U.S.
Um, I think that really benefitsthe Canadian system, though.

(30:09):
I think there's tons of peoplewho were within sort of driving
distance.
I mean, one of the things we'vewe've noticed at hip camp for
sure is RVs are more importantfor sure.
I mean, you know, RVing is anadventure of its own kind,
right?
Um, and we're finding that thecan't the camping um business
overall is actually down alittle bit.
I mean, hip camp's doing fine,but if you look at sort of all
the big players and so on, it'sbecause people are taking fewer

(30:31):
road trips to go to the nationalparks, which means that they
have fewer nights on the way toand from.
You know, a lot of people, theclassic road trip is to kind of
go from campsite to campsite,stay in national park, campsite,
campsite, national park, and doa big circuit in 10 days or
something like that.
And there's a little lessappetite for that because people
are worried about what's goingto show up.
Oh, sorry, what's going to bethere when they show up at the

(30:52):
national parks.
I think that's an overblownfear.
Yeah.
And from everything I can tell,actually things are actually
working pretty well.
But but you know, it was reallyin the news a lot in the spring
when people were making theirplans.

SPEAKER_00 (31:01):
Well, that's why I find it fascinating to being
able to have a conversation withsomeone like you that has access
to that data and insight andknowledge.
And obviously, I I know youprobably have to be mindful
about what you share sometimeswhen there are publicly traded
companies.
Um, but just to go a little bitfurther on this, with companies
like Forra, especially when wethink about Americans traveling
outbound, um, what are some ofthe other trends that you're
paying attention to aboutAmericans exploring the world?

(31:24):
Is there different destinationsthat they are like are they more
focused on Europe?
Are they more focused on Asia?
Have you seen any shifts inoutbound consumer behavior or
even reduction too, Eric, ofthose numbers, given some of the
things we talked about, peoplechoosing to stay home?

SPEAKER_02 (31:38):
Well, you know, I mean it's only a matter of time
before Americans start sewingCanadian flags on their backpack
again.

SPEAKER_03 (31:44):
I've heard that's already happening.
It's probably already happening.

SPEAKER_02 (31:46):
I mean, we all remember that happening back in
the early 2000s during the uhthe uh Iraq war.
Um, I'm sort of kidding.
Um no, I I I haven't seen thatreally show up in the numbers
yet.
Um what you do see showing up inthe numbers, though, is um uh or
or I see anyway, uh acrosstravel stuff is um there is
definitely some economicuncertainty starting to to come
in.
Um uh the people at the veryhigh end, you know, the the U.S.

(32:09):
traveler, um, of course, at thevery high end, they live a
completely different existence.
But even even sort of the um theupper middle class uh traveler
who is still feeling confidentis still traveling, but there is
going to be some wobble aspeople a little lower down.
I mean, people are kind ofscared about AI coming and
taking their jobs.
Or as they say, you know, it'snot the AI that takes your job,
it's the person who can use theAI, whatever the the current

(32:32):
sort of uh phrase is.
People are nervous about that,and um, you know, especially uh
if the younger people who areearlier in their careers, you
know, those jobs, whether it'sjust frozen up for now or
whether the jobs are never goingto get filled, we don't know.
But I mean, there is sort ofcreeping white-collar
unemployment um at this point,regardless of kind of, you know,
that's certainly the vibeanyway.
Whether people have actuallylost their jobs yet or not, is

(32:54):
more people not getting hiredinto jobs that would have
existed and now don't.
Um and I think there's apalpable sense of nervousness
around see the the AI, it's nota recession exactly, but the
idea that AI is going tosuddenly put people into a
different economic bracket wherethey're not gonna be able to
afford to travel as much.
I think people are worried aboutthat.
And I have to say I kind ofagree.

SPEAKER_00 (33:15):
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting.
I'm glad you brought that upbecause certainly the headlines,
whether you look at Accenturecutting, you know, 11,000 jobs
or even reason uh Lufthansatalking about restructuring with
AI.
And so there's a directcorrelation between not only
restructuring cost cutting, butthen also raising.
A company like WeTravel justrecently raised$92 million.

(33:36):
And I captured the screenshot ofthe headline because it was$92
million to invest in AI formulti-day tour.
And I just I smiled and and andthought to myself, I it's a
headline I wouldn't haveexpected to see because you've
got two different thingshappening.
You've got people losing theirjobs, and then you've got
investment going into companieswith the idea they're going to
be hiring people.
I definitely think that, and andthis is my perspective, it

(33:58):
sounds like we're similar onthis, is that with those
headlines of job losses, peopleare starting to question whether
or not they want to take thattrip this year.
Anything that, you know, thatslight sense of a recession.
And again, these are the signalsthat we're trying to pay
attention to because it's alwayseasier to look back.
I mean, a recession is defined,as you well know, as two
quarters of contracted growth.
And you just say you don't knowyou're in a recession until
you're in a recession.

(34:19):
And then the question is howlong is it gonna last?
So and we've seen we've seen butwe've seen more impressive
growth numbers in the lastquarter from both US and Canada
with the DeFi.
So it's it's difficult to readthe signals, but I do think
you're absolutely on tosomething with people being
concerned about what it's gonnamean for their job with AI.

SPEAKER_02 (34:37):
Yeah.
And also, you know, me, it's youknow how they they used to say
that people who live through thedepression for the rest of their
lives, they always thought therewas gonna be another depression,
or they couldn't just sort ofspend money easily.
Yeah, well, I think people wholive through the bubble popping
in 1999-2000 always see anotherbubble, but I swear, I see
another bubble.
I mean, it feels to me likepeople are quite right to be
worried about the big hammerthat could come down sometime

(34:59):
soon because there's too muchriding on the success of AI
right now.
And I think everybody feels itin their bones.
And the fact that um, you know,it's interesting, you talk to
people here at Arrival, you talkto the folks who are um
executives and who are runningtheir companies, um, and there's
real palpable pressure to figureout how to use AI.

(35:22):
And I think some of the pressureis coming from just the media
hyping up all the money that'sbeen raised for the hyperscalers
that it's sort of like, well,you guys better figure out how
to make this work, otherwise,the stock market's gonna crash.
I mean, that's that's not asuper healthy sort of push for
innovation, I don't think.
And I I am a little worriedabout that.
Whereas at the same time, like Isaid, most of the stuff that

(35:42):
we're seeing uh in terms of AIsuccess, it's it's cost
reduction.
It's making people way moreefficient, it's meaning that you
can get the work of three peopledone with one person.
So that might not be a layoff,but that's jobs that that aren't
being created.
And I think everybody in the inin any any business where you've
got structured data and you'vegot a bunch of rules to apply to
the data, you know, customerservice, accounting, law, tax,

(36:04):
you know, you name it, right?
I mean, we all kind of know thelaundry list, those are the
things where people are gettingmore and more eff uh efficient,
but it doesn't necessarily bodesuper well in terms of like uh
the the boat rising, all alltides rising for travel
spending, because that that iscore travel market, too, right?

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SPEAKER_00 (38:40):
And now, back to the show.
I want to get into the pros andthe cons of AI because you
specifically called out the needfor human interaction,
obviously, you being involved ina camp and and not only having
had that experience as a childyourself, and obviously you're a
family man, you so you uh withyour children, this is something
that you clearly have a passionfor, and for others to be able

(39:02):
to experience a screen-freesummer or you know, the the
absence of technology.
So let's talk let's talk aboutwhere the benefit is, and then
let's talk about where you seethat if anything, there's gonna
be a greater desire and need forhuman connection.
Um so let's talk about thebenefits.
You obviously efficiency.
So tell us about some of thethings that you're seeing

(39:23):
companies, how they're applyingAI to be successful.
Um I would love to hear thatfrom your point of view given
the companies you sit across,because I'm sure every one of
those companies is toutingwhether they get their
investment, how they're gonnaleverage AI to automate as much
as possible.
So tell us what some of thebiggest opportunities for AI,
and then let's get into thecounterside.

SPEAKER_02 (39:41):
Yeah, I would say, I mean, uh uh automation, yeah,
but it's not necessarilyautomate uh as much as possible.
What you're trying to do isautomate the stuff that's got
the highest leverage to it andthe places where it sort of
makes the most sense.
Um, you know, a place likeZillow, for instance, um, we can
make our our the real estateagents who are the core kind of
uh Zillow customer, um, youknow, we can make them so much
more efficient by providing themwith the right tools so that

(40:03):
they can handle their workflowbetter.
So a lot of a lot of workflowtype tools, and of course those
can get used internally as well.
And then what you end up with isyou've got the same employee
base and you've got the sametask list, but your cycle time
is way up.
So you can get stuff done awhole lot faster.
And the smaller the company, thebigger that effect, right?
I mean, right now you can dothings with a three-person

(40:24):
company that it would have takenyou 30 people to do before.
And and I've seen that over andover again now.
And part of it is becausewriting code is so much easier
than it used to be for folks.
Um, I am not yet a vibe coder,although I have tried a little
bit.
Well, you know, I've I've I'vemessed around a little bit, but
I found that trying to doanything that actually um, you
know, could actually survive inthe real world, building uh

(40:45):
whatever it might be atransactional platform or
something like that.
Um, I don't have any kind ofcoding skills.
I'm not technical, I'm amarketing guy.
Uh, and I find that having justa little bit of coding skills
still helps a lot.
That'll change.
That'll change over time.
I know that at uh a lot ofcompanies now, um, you know,
using Replit or the other tools,product managers now deliver
working prototypes into the kindof meetings that when I was a

(41:07):
product manager, you would sitin there with wireframes.
Well, that's a massivedifference that's gonna save
everybody just weeks and weeksand weeks.
So I think that the main thingthat I'm seeing, again, call it
cost savings, time savings, itall ends up being the same sort
of thing.
What I haven't seen much of, ohby the way, more writing
marketing copy, I mean, there'sa bunch of different instances
of that.
I I struggle to point to asingle place where um somebody's

(41:30):
using AI in a way that isclearly bringing them in
incremental revenue.
That I haven't seen.
I've seen I've seen a lot ofmachine learning and AI applied
against marketing campaigns andmaking them more efficient and
figuring out how to hit yoursort of efficiency frontier on
spending, but that that's notthe same as bringing in brand
new revenue.
I I don't doubt that it'shappening.
I just haven't seen it in myworld yet.

SPEAKER_00 (41:51):
Yeah, and the reason I want to ask you that question
is because when you see theheadlines and you see these
valuations, to your point aboutthe fact there is going to be a
correction, I'm convinced thereis as well.
Some of these valuations arejust totally out of whack.
You see a company like Oracleall of a sudden having a massive
surge, Larry Ellison becomingthe wealthiest person in the
world.
And the reason for that isbecause they did a big deal with
ChatGPT, but they haven't evenraised the amount of money yet
that they're planning to spendagainst that.

(42:12):
And so um there was a bit of a acorrection on that.
But nevertheless, there's all ofthis hype, there's all of this
unrealized opportunity, but Ithink we are in some cases,
there's so many parallels to thedot-com era where we're getting
ahead of ourselves, even withgenerative optimization compared
to SEO.
Even uh Brendan will talk aboutthe fact that it's only about
five percent of traffic today,not 50%.

(42:33):
And so it is coming, but it'sit's one of those things where
you always ask overestimatewhat's gonna happen in a year,
underestimate what's gonnahappen in 10.
And so I think that the Amazonsand these companies are here
with us today, and they're theones that will stand the test of
time.
But a lot of companies will fallaway as the correction happens.
So let's talk about the flipside.
So, if those are theopportunities for where
companies are leveraging thetechnology and highlighting to

(42:55):
their investors, what are someof the areas that you would
highlight as kind of thedetractors or the where areas,
and I'll call out one specificexample from my experience, a
company called WeRoad, the grouptravel company, based out of
Italy.
They've had incredible growthand went from 10 million to 100
million in four years, andthey're very much the anti-AI.
And I've seen companies like EFthat have done studies that

(43:16):
highlight that younger peopleare abandoning dating sites and
they're traveling because theywant to meet people in real
life, not on a screen.
Um, so tell us a little bit moreabout the camp and your overall
view on this kind of anti-AImovement and what the
opportunities are there.
Because I do think there's gonnabe another swing back to those
companies that actually werethere all along, but right now

(43:37):
are undervalued because peoplearen't seeing the fact they're
gonna benefit from the fact thattheir businesses are not gonna
be automated and that people aregonna want to still meet with or
congregate with other people.

SPEAKER_02 (43:48):
Yeah, listen, listen, I mean, well, I'm an old
Butterfield Robinson bike tourguide, right?
So I believe me, I believe inthe power of wind in your face
and sort of good fun people tohave dinner with.
Um, I think that um, you know, alot of stuff has been pulled
online in the last 10, 15 years.
You read Jonathan Hayt, you readThe Anxious Generation, it's
very clear that social media isnet net a negative for society.

(44:09):
I I don't have any compulsion ofsaying otherwise.
Um at the summer camp, we sortof see it through the lens of
the parents who are so gratefulwhen they drop their kids off
that this is gonna be the onlytwo or three weeks of the whole
year when they're gonna actuallyinteract with other kids on a
day-to-day basis, and that's allthey're gonna do.
There's no screens, there's notechnology, we put everything in
a bag.
On the first night, we end upconfiscating all the phones that

(44:31):
they try to sneak in, you know.
That's just that's just ofcourse their kids, you know,
that's the way it goes.
Um, but I can't tell you howmuch the kids appreciate it.
And then one of the things thatwe've done is when they when
they get on the bus to go backout of the city um at the uh the
end of their time up there.
Um we used to give them theirphones when they got on the bus,
but the parents were like,please don't, because when they
get off the bus now withouthaving had their phones back

(44:52):
yet, their parents say, We getto see our kids again just for a
bit.
And the parents decide when togive them their phones back.
But the crazy thing is, it'sit's it's really is um it's
taking them from one reality,putting them into another.
But you know, we're we're we'resupposed to be around other
people, interacting with otherpeople.
We're not really supposed to.
I mean, you know, Mark MarkZuckerberg talking about um

(45:14):
everybody's got room for 12friends in their life, they only
have three.
Well, we could fill the othernine with AI.
I couldn't agree, I couldn'tdisagree with anything more
profoundly than I disagree withthat, right?
And um, you know, I feel likethere's a certain art to life,
and and the more that thingsbecome technical, it feels like
we're trying to make all of lifetransactional.
And that's just not, you know,if you're anywhere around the

(45:36):
travel industry, you know, youknow the difference between a a
sort of a super efficienttransaction that um let's say
let's say you go to one of thehotels where there's not really
a lobby anymore, you know, youcan sort of check yourself in.
I try all these different sortof things.
Yeah, there's a time and a placefor that, right?
But there's also a time and aplace for the like Danny Meyer
hospitality where you actuallywant to talk to somebody and get

(45:56):
a feel for a place.
And that's that's true up anddown.
And I I I I think you're gonnasee, you know, digital detox at
a bunch of different kinds, youknow, wellness is on the
upswing, and that's gonnaabsolutely coincide with uh with
a lack of technology.
People are gonna want to escapethese AI agents and their AI
companions.
I mean, uh, you know, the onething I will say, my observation
from the camp is it only reallyworks well if everybody stows

(46:20):
their device at the same time.
If you have 20 people and all 20don't have a phone, you have
this really interesting, nuancedconversation that if one person
has a phone, everybody else justsits there going, Hmm, when do I
get my phone back?

unknown (46:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (46:34):
It's so true.
I've talked at the at ATTA aboutan eco-lodge we've been to, and
they only had internet um in themain foyer area where people
would congregate and they wouldturn it off.
So when you had to have dinnerwith everyone at a group table,
everyone was forced to interact.
No one had any internet accessor cell phone access.
And it was wonderful.
And it was like, and and forthat younger generation, which

(46:54):
is why I love what you're doingwith the camp, because you know,
I've having had uh young kidsgrowing up through screens and
trying to decide when they wouldget a phone, is it 12 years old,
when would they get access tosocial media?
And now we're even seeing thatcountries like Australia are now
waiting until 16, like thenegative uh effects of social
media and being connected allthe time and how it's rewiring
our brains, mental healthissues.

(47:15):
There's many reasons now forparents to be concerned and to
be able to choose uh uh analternate course and also send
them away to a summer camp.
So on this topic, Eric, what doyou think of the opportunities?
Uh you mentioned wellness, and Ithink you're spot on with that
for sure.
That like the idea of digitaldetox and people having uh going
on retreats and people takingbetter care of their health.

(47:37):
What are some of the othertrends on that side where you
think that actually there isbusinesses today that are
undervalued where you knowpeople are going to embrace
other opportunities to travel?
And I'll give one last example.
I'm heading on a cycling trip.
Um, next week I'm in Patagonia.
In advance of the ATTAconference.
And um, we had our call with the11 of us before, and I'm so

(47:59):
excited to go on this cyclingtrip, the 11 people on our call,
and we were told that just youknow, uh throughout the day,
you're not gonna have anyinternet or mobile phone access.
And so we you hopefully will inthe villages we stop at at night
have some access to internet,but don't rely on it.
So I had to tell my wife thatshe's like, Thank God for you,
it's gonna be a forced digitaldetox, and I'm genuinely looking
forward to it.

(48:19):
So that's one example.
And if I love that, I'm chancesare I'm gonna continue traveling
like that.
So yeah, tell us where you thinkthe opportunities might be.

SPEAKER_02 (48:26):
Sure, sure.
I mean it was I actually it'sfunny you bring that up.
I spent 12 12 days this summerup in the Yukon on a canoe trip
with absolutely no access.
It was glorious.
I have to say, it's funny how itdoesn't take long at all before
you just don't miss it a bit,uh, which is which is a truism.
Um I think there's a bunch ofdifferent uh companies or sort
of categories that have beenkind of written off way

(48:47):
prematurely.
Um I was making the pointyesterday, people were talking
about the use of photography umin travel marketing.
Uh and I've sort of made thepoint, it's like, you know, um
life is not a business, andtravel has a lot more to do with
art than commerce if you're ifyou're traveling for the
experience of it.
And nobody wants to see AIgenerated photos of a trip

(49:07):
because that's the trip thatthey're planning on taking.
They want to see photos of theactual people who did the trip,
right?
And nobody wants to re- nobodywants to pick up, you know, the
new version of travel andleisure, knowing that the
articles were written by AI.
They want it to be written by atravel writer.
They want it to be, you know,this magical journey so they can
imagine themselves there.
And it's, you know, when I sortof talk about the fora thing,

(49:29):
it's like people don't want toask their AI, what should I do
for vacation?
And based on all the things Iknow about you, I think that you
should go to Tuscany.
I mean, that's not, they want tosort of have a little back and
forth.
It's about it's about the art ofliving.
It's it's not it's not all aboutefficiency.
And I think one of the things toto paint with a brat broad brush

(49:50):
here, I think you do have athing where a lot of the um the
momentum around some of you knowusing AI as though it's going to
be the great oracle that plansall your travel for you, I think
is coming from a sort of aSilicon Valley engineer's
mindset.
And we could use some more poetsin the mix.

SPEAKER_00 (50:06):
Yeah, that's a really good point.
All right.
So, Eric, there's one morequestion I want to ask you in
our Captains of Industryepisode, given that you have
such a privileged view fromsitting on these boards and
everyone understanding yourbackground as far as what you're
paying attention to in 2026,whether it be investing, your
own kind of personal preferencefor travel.
I love asking this questionbecause for me, when I speak to

(50:28):
someone like yourself or MichaelZeisner, just to mention
Michael, and the fascinatingconversation I had with him, and
he'll be part of the series aswell, is he's focused on the
experiential economy.
So he looks at tours andactivities and how travel
impacts people, but he's alsolooking at psychedelics and
psilocybin and attendingconferences.
He wants to go deep intoexperiential travel and this
human desire.

(50:48):
And even we were talking aboutreligion and the younger
generation starting tore-embrace religion again.
So these are the things thatkeep him up at night and keep
him focused on what does thatmean in terms of companies I
should invest in.
So I'd love to get your take onyou know, you're an outdoor
adventure enthusiast.
What is it that you're reallypaying attention to in 2026 that
might be of interest to ourlisteners?

SPEAKER_02 (51:09):
Well, I mean, you just sort of said it.
I mean, I the the the more timeI spend around AI, the more I am
an outdoor adventurer andenthusiast.
Um I just I I I'm reallybelieving that um it's very
important for the world that themore the more that our our lives
are mediated through screens,the more important it is for us
to find affinities and to findways of actually interacting

(51:30):
with other people.
So, I mean, you talked about thedating thing.
It's not like dating apps aregonna go away, right?
But it also it all does comedown to in-person meeting up.
Um I think that you're gonnasee, I mean, it's interesting.
One of the things I talked aboutyesterday, for instance, was um
people traveling now uh withtheir running clubs.
And that's not something thatwas happening too long ago.
It's because people are verylonely.

(51:51):
I mean, technology makes youlonely, and therefore you want
to go and travel with otherpeople.
One of the things I willpredict, and I really think is
true, is over the last, say, 15years, the trend in multi-day
travel has been from um folkssort of signing up for a spot,
or usually, but usually as acouple, right, on a trip, the
bunch of strangers who are doingthe same thing, sort of taking a
leap of faith that they're gonnabe interesting and they'll

(52:12):
they'll make some friends maybe.
Then the trend came away fromthat to only private trips.
And suddenly everybody went, Oh,I'm just going with my family.
I don't want, I don't want theunwashed, you know, public
around.
Well, I predict that's gonnaswing back, and more and more
people are gonna start signingup for multi-day trips with a
bunch of people they don't know,often an adventure trip, because
that's a pretty good filter forpeople being cool, yeah, I

(52:32):
think.
You know, and and I think we'regonna see a real real resurgence
in that market.
I think I think people arewriting are sort of writing it
off and saying, oh no, everybodyis gonna have their own
personalized travel.
No, no, people want to do stuffwith other people, and uh, and I
think there's gonna be greatinvestment opportunities in
that.
I really do.
I think it's sort of uh, youknow, mobile hospitality, if you
will.
But I think the idea thateverything is gonna get sort of

(52:54):
subsumed into AI is um is justplain wrong.

SPEAKER_00 (52:57):
Yeah, well that's exciting to hear, and I think
there's a ton of opportunitythat is yet to be realized for
what is likely to come uh withinthe next 12 to 18 months, let's
say, when there is a correction,and I will be tracking it
closely as I'm sure you willtoo.
I thought it was gonna happenwhen ChatGPT 5 came out, and all
of a sudden people said,actually, it's a bit of a jerk
and it's not a professor inevery topic.

(53:19):
And so it can just take one ofthose moments that all of a
sudden the market starts tocorrect itself and realize it's
not necessarily gonna be thepanacea for all of our
challenges, and then all of asudden you're gonna have the
floodgates open to manytraditional businesses and many
in the travel industry, becauseI'm bullish on this sector, as
I'm sure you are as well, justgiven the demographic, right?
So well, Eric, it's been such apleasure speaking to you again.

(53:40):
Thank you for joining us for ourCaptains of Industry series.
You are a true captain uh frommy perspective, and I'm sure uh
to all of our listeners as well.
So thanks for making the timefor us, and I certainly wish you
all all the best in the yearahead.

SPEAKER_02 (53:51):
Always a pleasure, Dan.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (53:53):
Thanks so much for joining us on our latest episode
of Travel Trends.
I hope you enjoyed today'sconversation with Eric
Blatchford, a true captain ofindustry.
We're actually going to keep upthe captain of industry theme
going into season seven andeight into twenty twenty six.
If you're interested inpartnering with us, be sure to
reach out.
You can find out moreinformation on Travel
Trendspodcast.com as we preparefor 2026, including our events

(54:17):
and campaigns that we're runningwith a number of partners.
We've got some amazing customcontent planned with Deloitte,
Travel Zoo, and a number ofother spotlight episodes.
And as I mentioned at thebeginning, the arrival spotlight
episode is out.
The Adventure Travel and TradeAssociation episode will be out
shortly, and then right afterwe're in focus right next week,
we'll be releasing that specialevent spotlight as well.

(54:37):
Don't forget we do send out ourmonthly newsletter.
You can register for that atTraveltrendspodcast.com, and we
post clips and highlights on allour social channels, which you
can find on LinkedIn, YouTube,and Instagram.
And next week, we begin our deepdive in the world of loyalty,
the first time that we've lookedat loyalty.
And I'm really excited to bringthis series together with our
partners over at Loyalty Co.
and Status Match.

(54:58):
So make sure you're subscribedon the streaming platform of
your choice for the firstepisode to go live next
Wednesday.
Until then, safe travels.