Inside GetYourGuide's Journey with Tao Tao

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A misbooked flight, a lost day in Beijing, and a spark that reshaped how millions discover what to do when they land. In this Captains of Industry episode, we sit down with Tao Tao, Co-Founder and COO of GetYourGuide, to unpack what it really takes to build a global marketplace for experiences—from cold-calling suppliers before the website even existed to mastering SEO when organic growth still compounded, and designing a company around work, not titles or ego.

Tao explains why execution - not a single “big idea” - wins in travel. We explore how GetYourGuide scaled city by city, managed operator tensions with radical clarity, and made UX choices - like 24-hour cancellation - that boost conversion without breaking trust. He shares lessons on timing, luck, and how culture - anchored in curiosity, high standards, and follow-through - turns principles into performance.

Looking ahead, Asia is roaring back, with Japan leading both demand and creative supply. Learning-led experiences - from cooking classes to knife-making workshops are surging as travelers seek skill and story over stuff. As GetYourGuide expands into multi-day trips, shows, and events, Tao envisions owning more of the traveler’s journey from “What should we do tonight?” to “How do we make this trip unforgettable?” He even welcomes Airbnb’s return to experiences, noting that a rising tide of awareness lifts every boat.

If you care about the future of travel, marketplaces, or simply making great things easier to find, this conversation delivers sharp insights and practical takeaways. For more information on GetYourGuide, please visit getyourguide.com.

👉 Listen to Inside GetYourGuide's Journey Now

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:03):
Travel is one of the very few things that just keeps
going up and to the right.
Right?
So in the 1950s, you had 50million people traveling.
Just before COVID, you had youknow more than a billion people
traveling.
It's one of the few trends, uh,mega trends, just driven by
people's curiosity and and andyou know median income uh and
passports and and lower airfareand availability of hotels and

(00:24):
so on.
And that trend is unstoppable.

SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Hello everyone and welcome back to Travel Trends.
This is your host, DanChristian, and I'm thrilled to
continue our season six.
This is now episode five of ourCaptains of Industry series.
We just wrapped up our InDestination series part two,
where we featured Meow Wolf,Viator, and Geotourist.
And today we're gonna get tospeak to a true captain of

(00:50):
industry, the co-founder and COOof Get Your Guide Tao Tao.
Now, he and I had a chance tosee each other last week in
Washington.
It was always great to see himin person, but also on stage.
We actually went on just afterhe finished presenting because I
was there to host the multi-daytour track.
And I look forward to you guysseeing many of the updates which

(01:11):
we've posted on our socialchannels and also will be
featured in our latestnewsletter, which you can
subscribe for atTraveltrendspodcast.com.
And I've now just arrived inPatagonia, Chile for the
Adventure Travel and TradeAssociation conference.
And over the course of the nextweek, I'm gonna be recording
live here.
So if you're in this part of theworld, be sure to reach out to

(01:32):
me and I will try and includeyou in our event spotlight.
And we've also just released ourtourism innovation summit event
preview, where I'm gonna beheaded right after this.
I will be in Seville.
So again, please reach out ifyou're gonna be there.
Now let's get back to ourCaptains of Industry series and
welcome someone that is bound toenter the travel industry hall
of fame at some point in thefuture.

(01:54):
But he's right in the middle ofhis career now in full flight.
Tao Tao, the co-founder of GetYour Guide.
Welcome, Tao Tao.
Thanks for joining us on TravelTrends.

SPEAKER_02 (02:02):
Thank you, Dan.
It's a privilege to be here.

SPEAKER_01 (02:03):
For sure.
This is the Captains ofIndustry.
And when we came up with thisconcept for season six, you're
one of the first people that Ithought of because I have a
great respect for what you'veaccomplished and you
specifically.
Obviously, you got Johannes aswell, but I'm like, um I'm the
Tao Tao fan, so just so youknow, um, but I'm a huge fan of
Get Your Guide, and of course Ireally like uh Johannes as well.
But you guys have such anamazing story together.

(02:26):
You and I have met, of course,at the arrival conference.
I've seen you give keynotes onstage, and it's always nice to
be able to speak to someone thatyou've actually talked to in the
green room before you went onstage.
And so I've watched you withgreat interest as the company
has continued to grow and gofrom success to success.
So it's a thrill to have youhere, and I know that many of
our listeners are familiar withyou and get your guide, but I

(02:46):
also know, just like myfather-in-law, who's just
traveling to Japan with Colettethis uh this fall, he actually
booked a sumo trip and he saidto me, He's like, Have you ever
heard of this company called GetYour Guide?
I said, Are they reputable?
And I'm like, Oh my god, are youkidding me?
I'm like, so I want to make surethat everyone listening to this
gets a great understanding ofthe background and the journey.

(03:07):
So let's start with the originstory of Get Your Guide, if you
wouldn't mind.
Take us all the way back to2006, 2007, when you decided to
create this company.
And what inspired you andJohannes to create Get Your
Guide?

SPEAKER_02 (03:21):
Absolutely.
So Dan, first of all, thankthank you so much for having me.
Big fan of the podcast.
Uh, you know, a lot of our teamlistens to your podcast.
It's it's definitely uh one ofyou know one great resource, and
and you guys bring greatopinions and voices to the
industry.
So um absolutely love that.
And and certainly in 2007, whenwe had the idea, there was no
travel podcast around.
So um that's that's definitely achange that we've seen.

(03:44):
So to take you back, um so backin 2007, Johannes and I we were
studying at the Swiss FederalInstitute of Technology in in
Zurich, Switzerland.
And we back then were um we weco-founded a student
organization that organized umstudent trips.
So it was a debate thing, ModelUN, for those who are familiar.
And we traveled to Beijing for adebate conference, and Johannes

(04:07):
booked his flights wrong.
So he arrived a day too early inBeijing, was lost.
And for those who know Johannes,and he's the co-founder and CEO
of the company, high energy,super passionate, you know, that
that you know ideal explorer toever you can imagine, really
wants to see everything and justreally explore, and couldn't
because he was you know stuck inhis hotel room back in 2007.

(04:29):
There was no great, you know,cheap data products available,
um, and it was not a five-starhotel, so there's definitely no
concierge.
So just very hard for him to doanything.
And a day later, I arrived, andI'm from Beijing, so I'm a
Beijing native.
I was I was born there, I grewup there, uh, lived there as a
small child, and and so I justreally opened up the city for

(04:50):
him.
We, you know, we went to havegreat food, saw great
experiences, you know, went tothe Forbidden City, the Great
Ball, the Summer Palace, we wentto some you know hidden spots,
met some friends, and when wecame back to Zurich, we kind of
had this idea that it should bea lot easier for anyone to
discover these cities and to uhunlock these experiences that

(05:14):
are you know otherwise onlyavailable to folks staying in
five-star hotels with fancyconcierges, um, or those who
maybe book some kind of packagetravel.
And so that was the idea.
Can we create something thathelps people unlock these
incredible experiences anywhereso that instead of having a TAO
who guides you around, you havean app that tells you um all the

(05:34):
wonderful things that you can douh in any destination around the
world.
And that was the idea, and thenwe we did the business plan on
uh uh you know, just you know,in our dorm rooms, uh back of
the envelope calculation.
We estimated that the marketwould be 100 billion.
That was our guess back then.
Actually, we're not that far offif I look at the current market

(05:55):
sizing, so that was prettyaccurate.
And we did a bit of consumerresearch, which existed in us
googling for you know, how docustomers find this today on the
internet?
And um, probably our researchskills just weren't that great
because we did not find thecompetitors that we know of
today.
Um, but you know, that bit ofnaivety, I guess, is also
important uh for first timefounders.

(06:16):
And so all of that gave usconfidence that we should um try
this and start get your guide.

SPEAKER_01 (06:22):
Such an incredible story.
And obviously, I knew with yourbackground being born in
Beijing, the fact you actuallyspeak more than uh you guys you
have four languages you'refluent in, obviously German as
well as as French and English.
Am I missing?
Is there a fifth one I don'tknow about?

SPEAKER_02 (06:36):
Those are the four.

SPEAKER_01 (06:38):
Okay, exactly.
So when I was uh preparing forour conversation today with Tal,
I was not only reading up onsome of the uh additional uh
articles that he's been featuredin, but I was also listening to
the Torpreneur podcast thatyou're featured on, which is
also a phenomenal podcast.
And they obviously had a greatconversation with you as well.
And I think the more I'velearned about you, the more
impressive you have become in mymind, looking at your journey.

(07:01):
And so in terms of yourbackground, though, obviously
you're telling us uh the getyour guide story, which people
need to know, but yourbackstory, when you look at your
journey before get your guide,you were uh an intern at at
Siemens before that.
That was your first role.
So, like you were well educatedand what and obviously you love
travel.
But tell us a little bit aboutyour life up until that point.

(07:22):
Like, was it a desire that youhad personally to work in
travel?
Were you just an avid travelerand wanted to find a way to make
a career out of this?

SPEAKER_02 (07:30):
Yeah, you you know, you know, the joke is um
Johannes and I and Martin andToby, the other two co-founders
are still in the business.
We always tell our parents that,you know, we went to these uh,
you know, fancy schools and tookSTEM classes, you know, studied
uh, you know, anything fromneuroscience to quantum physics
just to become travel agents.
Um that's but but you know,honestly, you know, why not?

(07:50):
Right?
So I think this is an amazingindustry.
So to take us a little bit back,um, yeah, I was I was born in
Beijing and um I moved toGermany at the age of six.
Um so because my uh my mom, shewas a physicist, uh, did her PhD
in physics here in Germany.
And um Johannes and I, weactually met um on a high school
exchange here in the US in 2001.

(08:10):
So when we were 16, we were bothin the US at the same American
boarding school, hence theAmerican accent a little bit.
And uh we spent a year there,you know, became very good
friends, have stayed in touchever since.
And later on, I went to theSwiss Federal Institute of
Technology, so ETH Zurich, and Istarted my physics studies
there, which I didn't finish.

(08:31):
I later on completed an econdegree, but I started in
physics, um, just like myparents, because I thought it
would be you know fun andtheoretical, was ultimately a
little bit too theoretical, butum, you know, still loved the
principal thinking which led meto economics.
And um, yeah, I mean, as youmentioned, I did an internship
at Siemens.
I think that was actually agreat experience um to

(08:53):
understand of what kind of jobsuited me.
Um so I still remember the themost memorable feedback I
received at Siemens, and thiswas two weeks in.
Um, I thought I was doing adecent job, maybe not a great
job, but a decent job.
But one day the manager calls meinto her office and says, How I
have to give you some feedback,you have to change how you work.

(09:13):
It's like, okay, let's go.
And um and the feedback was umyou have to work a lot less um
because it doesn't look great ifthe intern's in the office every
day uh and does all the work.
And I was thinking, well, yeah,so that that was that was
interesting feedback.
I mean, I adjusted it, um, butthat you know gave me an insight

(09:34):
into what it means to becorporate politics, you have to
maybe fit in a certain way, andyou know, nothing wrong about
that.
Um but that was definitely atakeaway for me that maybe this
corporate career ladder wasn'texactly for me.
And um, you know, and we'vealways been you know, I've
always been interested in doingsomething entrepreneurial.
In in in college, um, I was partof a student consulting company

(09:55):
where essentially students woulddo strategy consulting, and um,
you know, and and with Johannes,we co-founded this student
organization with the debate.
So we loved creating things,starting things.
Um, and I loved working in smallteams with just smart people
that I respect, that I have alot of fun with.
And, you know, and and I thinkthose things also helped um to

(10:16):
you know push me personally overthe over the barrier to say,
hey, you know, maybe starting acompany is not such a bad idea.

SPEAKER_01 (10:23):
Yeah, well, clearly what you learned there as being
an entrepreneur was that no oneis ever gonna pay you what
you're worth.
And I think that's some of thethings that uh stood out to me
when I speak to entrepreneurs,that when you look at a
corporate role and you see howhard you work and how diligent
you are, and the fact thatyou're gonna be so resourceful.
So the fact that you saw that soearly as an intern that looked
at the corporate world and said,wait a second, this isn't for
me, obviously, is an importantpart of your journey, even

(10:45):
though you were so incrediblyyoung.
But uh the one other thing Ijust wanted to touch on, and
then I wanted to speak about toget your guide in the
competitive landscape and howyou guys have been so
successful, because I think thisis such an intriguing part of
the story and part of yourbackground being so global and
international to be able to leada company like this, along, as
you mentioned, with your threeco-founders.
But the role you have is chiefoperating officer.

(11:08):
So once the company got up andscale, and of course Johannes is
a CEO, your role obviously isone of those ones that some
people are not, you know, achief operating officer.
There's so many differentaspects to that role, of course.
And you are all you are also avery um you're you're out there
in the media.
Obviously, you're kindly doingthe podcast with us, and so

(11:28):
often COOs are in thebackground, and Johannesov
obviously, you know, he speaksat some of the big events as
well, of course.
Um but tell everyone a bit aboutyour background because one of
the things I find reallyinteresting about your role is
you're responsible forgo-to-market strategy and the
user experiences, which is youknow two of the most important
aspects of growing a globalcompany.
So, yeah, tell everyone a bitabout your role and what you do.

SPEAKER_02 (11:50):
Absolutely.
So, you know, being a CEO, I getthis question um quite a bit,
especially from you know youngerfounders or entrepreneurs who um
also have these roles.
Um, my number one advice usuallyis um it's usually you want to
do the org design and titlesbottom up, not top-down.
Uh, because too often what Imean with top-down is you know,

(12:13):
we're a founder, so as afounder, I need to have a C
level title.
So you got I'm gonna be CX, youwill be C Y, and somebody with
CZ something, right?
Um and then we figure out whatwe do.
And and that is justfundamentally the wrong approach
because that optimizes for youknow personal preferences, ego,
and all those kind of things.
And I think the better approachis to think about what is

(12:34):
actually the frontline work thatneeds to be done, and then what
is the management structureneeded to support that frontline
work.
Um, and you know, obviously thisis hindsight 2020.
We always didn't always get itright as uh either.
And so um if you know, if I lookat the current setup, is
essentially some of the jobs tobe done in the company are
things that go to market, i.e.,on our side means um, you know,

(12:55):
going to suppliers, doingacquisition there, um, managing
them, uh, doing things likecustomer service, uh, doing
things like accounting, doingthings like you know, managing
payroll, doing things likerecruiting.
And so then you think aboutokay, what is a good management
structure to support that?
And then you create the orgchart and then you put
ultimately at the end the titleson it.
And the COO typically in manycompanies is very different, um,

(13:19):
just by the nature of companiesbeing very different, right?
So if you're a SaaS company, youknow, you only have one side of
the marketplace.
Um, you don't probably don'tneed a CO, you just need a chief
revenue officer who has bothsales and operations, right?
If you are a two-sidedmarketplace, um, you know, I've
seen COOs do a variety ofthings.
They can be doing, you know,they can be like a president
role where they do everything,um, or they can just be very

(13:41):
focused on you know back office.
And so that's why I think um,you know, when when when
founders or or other COs thinkabout the titles, I wouldn't be
so focused on the title.
I would really focus on youknow, what support do the teams
need?
What management structure is theleanest way and most efficient
way for them to get the workreally done.
And then then you worry aboutthe title.

(14:02):
Um, then that's a long-windedway of to explain what I
actually do.
So the teams um that actually umthat I support on, so primarily
is the all the various supplyteams, so doing supplier
acquisition, suppliermanagement, um customer service,
so um helping our customers, butalso the suppliers and partners
um have a great, reallydelightful um uh experience with
us when they have problems orquestions.

(14:23):
Um, and then also a lot of thecontent and localization, so a
lot of the what a lot ofcompanies would consider the
operations.
So those are a lot of the rolesI do.
Um but of course, as a as afounder, you're also um deeply
involved in company strategy.
Um also on the board of thecompany.
So um a variety of roles um thatI've tried to fill.

SPEAKER_01 (14:42):
I appreciate giving everyone that context because
certainly I think when peoplelook at you and the success of
Get Your Guide, especially ayounger generation coming up,
they instantly look at you andsay, I would love to be in that
position.
I would love to start a companylike Get Your Guide.
I would but the hard yards thatyou have navigated over the past
you know 15 plus years arereally what's important to

(15:03):
define the success that you havenow.
So I wanted to go back to thoseearly years and kind of set the
scene for the landscape for ourlisteners and also for you to
help us understand how youcharted the course to the
success that you have built getyour guide on globally.
So we had Rod Cuthbert on at theend of last season, who was uh a
terrific guest as we closed lastseason, and most people then

(15:24):
know the Viator story.
1995, they founded uh Viator,which was acquired by
TripAdvisor in 2014.
You essentially created Get YourGuide about 10 years later in
Europe.
There had been a big focus oncountries that like the US, or
even Australia for that matter,because obviously Rod is
Australian and set the businessup in San Francisco, and then
sending people to Europe.

(15:45):
But what I found fascinatingabout your journey is that you
guys started in Europe andexpanded globally.
And we've actually seen a lotmore of that, certainly in the
last five years.
Um, but you were one of thefirst, if not, you know, that
that emerged out of Europe andyou built a great travel tech
company.
And so when you think back tothose early years when you guys

(16:06):
were trying to navigate your wayto find investment and get
people to believe in it, I'msure you at least had Viator to
point to, even though it wasstill a long way from being a
success story.
When it sold to TripAdvisor was$200 million, and now here we
are, you know, 10 years later,and it's doing over a billion
dollars a year in revenue.
And so the success trajectoryfor this category in this
industry, it's uh to use aCanadian term, it's been like a

(16:28):
hockey stick.
So all of a sudden, especiallypost-COVID, right?
All of a sudden, you know,travel, everyone's spending
their money on travel, investorsare interested in travel.
And I know ultimately SoftBankbecame one of your big backers
and investors, which isimpressive of itself given um
their background.
And but yeah, tell us a littlebit about those first few years
and some of the challenges youcame up against and what made

(16:49):
you and the team so resilient inthe face of that, knowing that
there's such a big opportunityhere.

SPEAKER_02 (16:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um so lots of great questions,Dan.
And um maybe let me tack in themone for one.
Um first, maybe starting withthe macro setting that you
mentioned, Europe versus US.
Um so maybe here, I thinksomething that you know some of
you are, you know, you know, Iknow your listens are very
sophisticated.
And one of the things theyprobably all appreciate is um

(17:15):
almost all of theindustry-leading companies in
travel are European uh acrossany category.
So um, with the exception of umalternative accommodations, but
they also make most of therevenue in Europe, actually.
Um and that has to, so if youthink about the first travel
company ever, Thompson travel,right, late 18th something,
right, late 19th century, allthe way to Tui and then

(17:38):
Booking.com and you know allthese other giants um across
different different categories.
And it's that's because um thereis so much intra-umal travel in
Europe, and there are so many umamazing travel destinations in
Europe.
And so, both from a sourcemarket and from a destination
perspective, Europe is great.
And also, if you start buildinga travel business in Europe, you

(18:00):
have to think international fromday one.
Um, so you know, even you know,we started the company initially
in Zurich, then moved to Berlin,but we knew from day one this
would have to be a globalbusiness.
So we had a very global mindsetfrom the early onset, and I
think that um coupled with umour natural advantage of being
in Europe in terms ofdestination source market, I

(18:22):
think has always given us a hugelackup, um, just from a macro
context.
In terms of what were the um youknow initial recipes for
success, I think really goesback to um, you know, for those
listening who are you know maybejust thinking of creating a
marketplace, you know, there'sthe typical analogy of you know,
a nightclub, and you have tothink about, you know, you need,

(18:42):
you know, you need two types ofpeople in nightclubs, the woman
and the man, um, for your normalnightclub.
And um, and then you think aboutwhich side of the market is
easier to get, and then you goafter those, and then the other
side will typically follow.
Um, and and that's kind of howwe approach it, right?
We just said, well, clearlywe're a marketplace, so first we
have to offer some inventory.
So we started, Johannes and I,um, just the two of us, we just

(19:04):
called you know suppliers aroundthe world.
And it's actually still funnywhen you know these days we meet
like you know, the Empire Statebuilding, um, you know, just met
them recently, where we say,hey, remember when you know
these you know 26-year-old kidsyou know called you and said you
should sign up on this websitethat doesn't even exist yet?
Um, you know, that that's that'sreally how it started.
Obviously, they didn't say yesimmediately.

(19:24):
So some of these things tooklike five years, eight years,
you know.
Um and and that it I mean, Idon't think it's it's it's much
more secret than that.
You have to really think aboutwhat is the inventory that
customers want, um, acquirethat, and then build a great
consumer product that can reallyshowcase those experiences, and
then you have to figure outmarketing, which is usually I

(19:47):
would say where travel umcompanies fail.
I think here um we got a littlebit lucky in that when we
started, um there was just backin 2008, 2009, 2010, a lot of
organic um SEO traffic still.
And and I think we we benefitfrom that.
Um and then two is in Berlinback then, we had all these um

(20:10):
this rocket internet um techthingy that created back then a
lot of um copycasts to Americancompanies, right?
Um the benefit of that is theycreated a lot of incredible tech
and online marketing talent thatwe could also tap into.
So there were a lot of peoplereally, really knowledgeable on
online marketing that weourselves, you know, we've never

(20:33):
done any of this, couldn't havedeveloped so quickly ourselves.
So there was a very goodecosystem here in Berlin,
Germany, of just really smartfolks who could really help us
figure out the customeracquisition problem.
Um last but not least, maybe uma word of advice.
And back then, Keith Colen, whowas the founder and CEO of
Booking.com, when he joined ourboard in 2013, you know, we

(20:55):
thought, hey, you know, youknow, he's clearly got to figure
it out.
You know, booking back then wasa multi-multi-billion dollar
company already.
And we thought, let's ask himabout the secret, right?
And then when we when you knowwe got on board and we thought,
okay, now he's part of the teamand we can ask him about the
secret.
And he just said, you know, givethe customers what they want and
work really hard.

(21:16):
And and I think ultimatelythat's it, right?
There is no one silver bullet intravel, right?
And I think that's really thethe key thing.
There's not one deal, oneproduct feature, one piece of
inventory um that unlockseverything.
It is really understanding thatit's a supply-demand problem
with product in the middle, andyou have to keep improving all
three of those every day.

SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
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SPEAKER_01 (23:59):
And now, back to the show.
One specific thing I wanted tounderstand is that in those
early days when you were callingup suppliers, and obviously now
you've got 150,000 experienceswith 13,000 different suppliers.
So when you were calling thosefirst few, were you calling them
with the idea that these weregoing to be for German
travelers?
Like what where was the focusinitially on, as you mentioned,

(24:21):
source market?
And then where were thedestinations you were focusing?
Was it exclusively Europe?
And that and then you so uhbecause I'm really keen to
understand uh ultimately how youdecided to expand globally, for
example.
So tell us a little, if youwouldn't mind, just what markets
you were initially focused on.

SPEAKER_02 (24:36):
Absolutely.
So as you said, the the focuswas initially first of all, I
don't think we were thatsophisticated in the beginning,
right?
We just said, okay, what are thetop things in the world?
Let's just call them and seewhat happens, right?
I I don't think um and sometimesalso that bias for action
without overthinking it isactually not too bad.
Um I think if we had been fromtravel before, we would have
probably gotten moresophisticated, but also um maybe

(24:59):
less less courageous, and wejust called people.
Um the prioritization we had inmind though was certainly who
what are the top cities thatEuropeans and especially
German-speaking customers go to?
Because we thought this is wherewe had a bit of an advantage,
um, and it's the customers weunderstood, and where we had the
first um initial traction,especially with organic search

(25:19):
on Google.
And so that's where we start.
I mean, you know, these are notsecrets.
You know, you look at London,you look at Barcelona, you look
at Paris, you look at New York,uh, maybe Mallorca, because it's
Germans, right?
So you think about those placesand you just you just start
calling.

SPEAKER_01 (25:35):
Exactly.
And I think that that approachis, you know, when uh many
entrepreneurs today are lookingat getting funding and and I'm
sure coming up after you, notonly for uh investment, but also
trying to understand how tobuild their pitch decks.
And one of the things, you know,people are asking them about
their moat and these things thator their who their ideal
customer profile is, and many ofthese things that they have you

(25:56):
know yet to figure out.
They might have an idea of whatthey're moving towards, but as
you've proven successfully, youjust get in and you figure it
out as you go.
So tell us then how you ended upbecoming successful on the path
towards investment.
And so uh, if you wouldn't mind,just take us through a little
bit of that that early stages ofhow you guys actually uh reached

(26:17):
out to investors and when yourealized that you were ready to
be VC backed.

SPEAKER_02 (26:20):
Yeah.
And maybe maybe we before we goto the VC, I I do think um maybe
one important point is luckplays such a big role.
Um, and luck, especially when itcomes to timing, right?
So um, you know, I've seen somany great companies launch with
an idea that's just too early ortoo late.
Too late meaning there's alreadya successful incumbent uh with

(26:42):
you know exit velocity or tooearly.
Um and we've all seen those.
And I think we just hit theright timing on a lot of areas,
and that is not something thatyou can plan up front.
And you can control to a degreeif you're aware of the timing
issue, but you know, you willnever fully get it right.
And and I think we were quitelucky on on the timing piece for

(27:03):
sure.
And um, speaking of funding, Imean that's that's also timing,
right?
So um back in 2011, when wefirst started to really think
about getting funding, and bythe way, by today's terms,
that's crazy, right?
That's three years after twoyears after founding, we think
about start thinking about CDORseries A.
You know, these days, you know,companies uh you know already at

(27:23):
series, I don't know what whatletter of the alphabet they are
after two, three years.
So the the velocities havedefinitely changed a lot, which
is great because there's just alot more resources.
Um you can, you know, back thenI was mostly relying on going to
Quora, which was an online QAplatform with lots of great
knowledge.
Nowadays, you can just askChatGPT about what are
go-to-market best practicesacross two sort of marketplaces,

(27:46):
right, and travel.
And you probably get an 80%correct answer.
And um, but going back to thefunding question, so back then
it was just a lot more umimmature um ecosystem, both in
uh in Zurich um in Europe ingeneral.
But we realized that we reallywanted to have American
investors because they had areally global perspective.
And frankly, um all the Germaninvestors said no.

(28:08):
So uh when we when you know wewent to the German VCs, you
know, back in 2012 for a CRSA,you know, and this is they all
know this, but you know, thequestion of like, you know,
what's your business plan,what's the cash flow
projections, when are youprofitable?
It's like really?
Um yeah, so so we went to theUS, you know, we said, hey, this
is a global market play, um, orat least the Western Hemisphere

(28:32):
play.
Um it's a huge market, the 100billion, you know, nowadays I
think it's considered in the300, 400, 500 billion mark, but
you know, that triple-digitbillion market size is there,
um, up for the grabs.
And so we went into the US.
Um, we had fortunately a greatseed investor in in London, pro
founders who made a lot of greatintros to American VCs, um,

(28:53):
introduced us to Spark Capitalin Boston, who then ultimately
ended um up leading the A roundtogether with Highland Europe.
And um, but it was also for themnot a um uh you know a clear-cut
decision.
So um Alex was the partner onthe deal at Spark, um, you know,
keeps keeps reminding us that uhwhen he pitched to his

(29:15):
partnership, he um um they saidthis was the triple E, which is
it was early expensive inEurope.
And so this was um, you know,but ultimately, you know, they
they had the conviction and thecourage and the in the shared
vision in in the market and andand thankfully also in us as the
team to build the product thatcan serve this market, and and

(29:36):
then off we went.
And I think that was inhindsight also a very lucky
break because we didn't reallyknow the VC industry as we know
it today.
And today, you know, we know, Iknow that you know Spark and
Highland is incredible partners,and um and having really great
VCs on board actually matters alot too.

SPEAKER_01 (29:55):
Well, it's really interesting, and I can't wait to
share this with you because Ispoke to Chris Hameter last week
and many of Our listeners wouldhave heard him first because we
uh leading off with ChrisHemeter and then having you Tao
Tao, and something happenedquite magical on that call that
um to me confirmed that theseason the captains of industry
and having the two of you leadoff.
Uh so I asked Chris Hemeter afew rapid fire questions at the

(30:16):
end.
And of course, if people can goback and listen out from Thayer
Ventures, Chris Hemeterobviously is one of the biggest
VCs within the travel industry,but also a very savvy investor.
So it's not like they have thebiggest portfolio, but if
they're investing, everyone elsetakes notice.
Uh and I asked him, what's theone that got away, Chris?
If you could go back, what isthe startup that you would have
invested in?

(30:36):
And without much hesitation, hesaid, get your guide.
And it's like it's still uh andI found that so fascinating
because there's someone that isthat a savvy an investor, and
and credit to him for owning thefact that he missed this
opportunity.
And so I wanted to acknowledgethat because obviously that's uh
a cool connection between youguys that clearly you went to

(30:57):
the US and for whatever reasonat the time he didn't jump on
it.
I do know um Michael Zeisner hasbeen one of your investors and a
very, very happy investor aswell.
And so what I wanted to ask youwhen it actually came to finding
that success, one of the thingsI'm sure they were asking you,
and was key to your success, wasreally differentiating yourself
in the marketplace.
And that's one of the things I'mreally keen to understand,

(31:20):
especially how much of that wasintentional, or how much now
when you look back, you realizeas you reference timing being so
important.
But what were some of thecharacteristics of Get Your
Guide that were unique, thatallowed you to thrive in the
face of really toughcompetition, not only Viator,
but Kluke starting in Hong Kong,and there's been you know no
shortage of smaller players thathave tried to carve out uh a

(31:42):
piece of this business, and youguys have continued to go from
strength to strength.
So, what what is it that is thedifferentiator for get your
guide that you think has led tothat success?

SPEAKER_02 (31:51):
Yeah, so maybe starting from the um investor
perspective, I mean, uh andfirst of all, thanks to Chris
for his kind words.
Um but from the investmentperspective, I think at the end
of the day we can talk aboutmodes and and all these you know
cool things, but ultimately theone chart that matters is
growth, right?
If if growth um is a hockeystick, to use a Canadian term,

(32:13):
then um then everything's good,right?
And and ultimately that's alsobecause um in marketplaces,
scale is a critical mode, right?
There are other modes.
Um and and as we matured as abusiness, we've been thinking
about this much moremethodologically and think about
modes, thinking about strategicdifferentiation, um, thinking
about strategic expansion and soon.
But in the early days, it's allabout growth.

(32:36):
If you can show growth at uhdecent unit economics, that's
the only thing that matters.
And because it means that youhave actually found a way to
scale, um, even if maybe it'sinefficient a little bit or
inefficient a lot in somepockets, uh, but if you can show
that you even have a scalablepath and lever you can pull on,
that's incredibly magical.
And fortunate for us, you know,back then we we frankly we

(32:59):
leaned a lot on inventoryacquisition and uh and Google
customer acquisition.
Those two things just workedsuper well for us, right?
And we had a very good umgo-to-market playbook, um, we
had local offices, we had a verygood sales playbook.
So we you know, having done thesales ourselves, we just
continuously refined how wewould um you know sign up new
suppliers, manage them, um, andthen also acquire the customers

(33:22):
on Google in a very efficient,in efficient way and increasing
efficient way over time.
So ultimately growth is the onethat matters.
And and that also leads to thequestion of differentiation.
So um we can talk a little bitabout differentiation at scale
because there thedifferentiation is a bit more
important.
But the in the early days isreally just about strong
execution.
And so the differentiation thereis you know, what's your company

(33:44):
culture, who do you recruit, um,who's the talent that you bring
on board, um, how well do youwork together, uh, how hard do
you work together, and um do youtake the right bets and all
those things, right?
So execution is is just the key,right?
If you if you think about, youknow, if you go back 20 years
and you think about the leadingOTAs selling hotels, I mean,

(34:05):
what's the difference?
They all sell hotels, right, indifferent colors.
And then some some some executeit better than others.
And I think that makes all thedifference.
That said, um I will say thatthe European advantage, um, that
structural advantage of us beingin Europe has definitely helped.
Um, so you know, us being closeto the top spot um um
destinations, Rome, Berlin,London, um, and so on, and

(34:28):
having that European customerbase, um, that has been a source
of strength um ever since.
So that has definitely been ahuge structural advantage for
us.

SPEAKER_01 (34:36):
Well, it's really interesting to hear that from
your perspective because giventhat your role is also
responsible for the userexperience, so you're key to
driving innovation to ensurethat growth continues.
Because obviously, one reallygood example, I suppose, of
where you had success but thennavigated it is like is adding
more supply.
So you had more selection.
But all of a sudden, what canhappen, and as you well know, is

(34:57):
you end up with a crowdedmarketplace, and all of a sudden
there's so much selection it'sdifficult for a consumer to make
choices.
And I've seen, and certainly youhave as well, at Arrival
conference where there's almostlike an angry town hall, not in
your direction, thankfully, butcertainly uh with uh Dermot from
Viator and even the Fair Harborteam, where you have a lot of
these operators that are up inarms over placement with regards

(35:18):
to commissions, and even the wayyou guys successfully navigated
the whole originals, like I'vejust been so impressed by the
way that you guys have conductedyourself.
And so as you've grown, and thenyou when you reach these kind of
pressure points like that, uhfor example, having all of a
sudden so much supply, and thenyou yourself being responsible
for the user experience, and youknow that this could have a
negative effect on growth, howdo you navigate that when you

(35:39):
when you recognize, wait asecond, there's just there's too
many options here.
How do we refine it to make thebest user experience?
How have you overcome thosechallenges?

SPEAKER_02 (35:48):
I would say one of the um there's probably not one
generic answer, but um maybe ifwe take um just on the supply
side, like you know, the thattopic where you know you have um
you know very passionate youknow business owners uh with
wrong opinions, I think it'sreally about really
understanding what problems thatwe're trying to solve or what
problem they have, um, and justbeing really, really close to

(36:11):
them.
The benefit of, I think one ofthe benefits of Johannes and us
and me doing not only the salesacquisitions, but we were also
the first customer service team.
So um it was basically eitherhim or my cell phone using a
Skype routing extension going toour mobile phones, and um, and
we just you know took turnsbasically.
One day it was him, one day itwas me, and sometimes it was a

(36:32):
customer service call, me at thesupermarket counter or uh me
jogging or 3 a.m.
in the night.
Right.
And so I think that's um uh sowe have a lot of empathy, and
that's one thing we've kept up.
So you know, we still docustomer service once in a
while, and and I still talk toour operators, um, at least on a

(36:52):
weekly basis.
And and a lot of them have mypersonal email.
So for sure, if there's anissue, they do write me
directly.
And what I then try to do is,you know, sometimes I might
disagree and we have heateddebates, but I always make sure
that they really know that Ireally, really understood their
problem, and and that my answerof why we make certain decisions
is very clear about thetrade-offs, right?

(37:15):
And in a two-sided marketplace,and in these are business
owners, they understand theconcept of trade-offs.
So you know, often it's aboutunderstanding, hey, there are
customer needs, so travelerneeds, and there are operator
needs.
And 95% of the time they are inalignment and 5% they are not.
And then the question is if it'snot, why do we take a decision a

(37:37):
certain way?
And how does that decisionultimately also benefit the
operators in the midterm?
I give you a simple example.
So during COVID, um, one of thethings that we tested was um
24-hour free cancellation formost of imaginary.
We I understand that for someexperiences, I don't know,
five-day, multi-day, you cannotjust do 24-hour cancellation,

(37:59):
that doesn't work.
But um, we we just said, hey,let's just do it, let's do an um
A-B test, um, blanketconversion, and uh so it's a
blanket test of 24-hourcancellation, and we saw it was
super, super positive.
Right now, I fully understandthat it's operationally very,
very difficult um for suppliersand operators to do that.

(38:20):
Um, but then we just really wentinto the conversation and
explained to them, you know, youultimately all benefit from
this, right?
If you can enable 24-hourcancellation, it's gonna be
really beneficial because youwill get more bookings.
And you know, I don't know ifyou remember, but when when we
started to get you to guide,this is 10 more than 10 years
ago, you had this concept ofon-demand versus free sell

(38:41):
bookings, right?
So on-demand was you know, youbook and then you wait 48 hours
for the operator to confirm.
I mean, that that just wouldn'twork, right?
Because nowadays people bookwithin 48 hours.

SPEAKER_01 (38:54):
And and so terrible user experience, exactly.
Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 (38:56):
And I think those are just examples where in the
short term, it is operationallytricky, right?
I totally get it.
You cannot just suddenly changeyour operations as an operator.
Um, but if you can ease folksinto it, it's really explain
what's the long-term benefit ofdoing this.
Um, I usually have found thatthis works quite well if we just
give it to them straight fromentrepreneur to entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_01 (39:17):
Well, and the one thing that you've stayed close
to, and this is when I've seenyour presentations, uh,
including at the most recentarrival conference when you
actually talked about whattravel looked like post-COVID.
And since you referenced that,I'd actually love to be able to
ask you that now because I thinka lot of our listeners are going
to be keen to understand fromyour perspective, given how
close you are to that detail, byvirtue of that answer, where the

(39:39):
business is in 25 going into 26,and what the big trends you're
paying attention to.
And so the one thing I wantedyou to please highlight to uh
our audience, because it's farmore powerful coming from you,
but our podcast essentiallystarted to help people in the
travel industry understand whatwas happening post-COVID.
And what I find reallyinteresting about that, because
clearly it struck a chord andpeople have benefited from the

(39:59):
conversations because theyweren't necessarily getting this
information elsewhere.
They weren't necessarily inresearch reports.
There's a lot of amazing uhmedia businesses in travel that
do reports and research, and alot of that is very valuable.
When you speak to someone likeyourself, though, when you come
up on stage and you present thedata based on exactly what
you're seeing, that to me reallyexcites me because you're close
to the consumer experience andthe decisions they're making on

(40:21):
the destinations they want to goto, how sensitive they are uh to
price fluctuations, you can seeprivate tours, like there's so
much valuable data you have.
And this is where having theconversations with people like
yourself and people being ableto learn from that.
So, one of the things that Iwanted to ask you is this
question about post-COVID.
And the reason I wanted to askyou this question is not only is
it the genesis of the podcast,but also I still think that, you

(40:43):
know, as we have thisconversation, you know, what are
we, three years outside ofCOVID, maybe four.
But the reality is we're stillnot gonna know for 10 or 15
years truly all the impacts ofwhat happened to our society
during that time.
Children's education and um sowhen you look at travel, for
example, and I'm saying thatbecause our kids, we lived in LA
for a while, they didn't go toschool for like nearly two
years, and so uh they struggleda little bit to get into

(41:05):
university, but they finally gotthere.
But um, but yeah, what what doyou see what when you look back
at that time and look at whereyour business is today, tell us
what are some of the bigger uhconsumer behavioral changes that
you've noticed that stillcontinue.

SPEAKER_02 (41:18):
For sure.
And uh COVID, yeah, it feelslike uh 200 years ago, but it's
really not.
Um and uh so one of the thingsthat I remember us in COVID, and
we we took some somewhatcontrarian decisions in COVID.
So um, for example, um you know,a lot of folks told us, you
know, you should lay off halfyour company, right?
Go into hibernation and then youknow come back once this thing

(41:41):
is over.
We we took the oppositedecision.
We actually kept uh almosteverybody on and just invested
into the product uh and into thesupply.
And that turned out to be theright decision.
And because our insight was so,first of all, um it's it's a
virus, um, it's a questionwhether it's gonna be a two,
three-year thing, right?
Um and it helped that uhJohannes is actually uh he has a

(42:02):
master's in biochemistry.
Actually, two of our co-foundershave a master's in biochemistry,
and they both worked on uhcoronavirus in labs before as
part of their education.
So they were actually very, veryuh the most knowledgeable travel
uh executives probably uh aboutthe virus.
And um, and we just kept veryclose.
Also, lots of friends who weredoing research in this area.
And and and also a fundamentalconviction that travel is one of

(42:26):
the very few things that justkeeps going up and to the right.
Right?
So in the 1950s, you had 50million people traveling, just
before COVID, you had you knowmore than a billion people
traveling.
It's one of the few trends, uhmega trends, uh, just driven by
people's curiosity and and andyou know, median income, uh, and
passports and lower airfare andavailability of hotels and and
so on.

(42:46):
And that trend is unstoppable.
We also figure that umexperience is the least
digitized of all industries.
And if anything, um people learnfrom COVID is uh, or what I
always call the main COVIDwinner was the QR code.
Like pre-COVID was a QR code goaway.

(43:06):
What is this?
Uh but now everybody's using it,right?
And it's become so digital.
And all these top attractionsand government-run institutions
and um that have been maybe moreconservative about adopting
digital tools, um, really wokeup to digital tools, and that
really helped us as well.
So I would say starting with youknow, those are two convictions
we just really lean into duringCOVID because we we believed in

(43:29):
those.
In terms of trends um followingCOVID, I don't actually I
actually don't think there isthis one thing that changed
everything.
Um but there's this famousquote, you know, we always
overestimate what changes in oneyear and underestimate what
changes in 10 years.
And I do think some of thosethings that um we might
underestimate is, and and andyou know, obviously your

(43:53):
listeners may not, and and wecertainly don't, is just the
rise of experiences overall.
One of the things we've seen isthe um so the purchase of
consumer experiences overthings, that growth rate is 5x
different um versus um versusproducts, and also experiences
are the fastest growing segmentum within travel, so within

(44:13):
flights and hotels, so it'sgrowing um also a lot faster.
Um and that just I think it hasto do with people, they just got
a big reminder that, oh, itactually matters to go outside
the door and meet people andhave in-person, and you know,
Zoom is not everything.
Um and maybe one other anecdoteis you know, folks during COVID
said, Well, you're offeringtours, why don't you offer
virtual tours, right?

(44:35):
Um like you know, online Zoomtours.
And and you know, usually wetold them like you you you
fundamentally misunderstand whatget your guide is about.
Get your guide is not about thethe word tours, right, or
experience, it's about humanconnection, real discovery, uh
the sense of adventure.
So anybody who's been on a realtour versus a virtual tour.
A virtual tour, the competitorsNetflix and PlayStation 5,

(44:57):
right?
Um and that's just not that'sjust not where what we're
competing against, right?
We're competing against youbeing in Rome and maybe having a
glass of wine too much uh versusdoing one of our experiences.
So I think I think that's reallybeen one of our um key
convictions.
And last but not least, and Ithink this is the one that gives
me a lot of uh optimism and andconviction, is um I've been so

(45:20):
I've been um with Johannes,we've been traveling a lot to
local offices, we've been havingsmall satellites supplier
events.
We now have these bigger eventsuh called Unlocked, where we
have them um three times a yearon different continents, so
Asia, Europe, um, and the US.
And we get a lot of supplierstogether and talk about
innovations, roadmaps, and soon.
And what really is fascinating,especially on the smaller

(45:42):
satellite events, where it's umyou know more long tail or newer
operators, is that so many ofthem started their business
during COVID.
Right?
So um, when I was in Japan, itwas so inspiring um when we
asked the room how many of youstarted your experience business
during during the pandemic, itwas half the room, and it was
incredible.
And I think just thatentrepreneurialism of people

(46:06):
thinking about new types ofexperiences to create is is is
just is just amazing to see.
Versus when I remember in 2009when we started the business,
all tours featured as souvenirstop.
We've come a long way from thatto now you have sumo wrestlers.
You mentioned sumo.
So one thing is the sumo things.
Um the other one is you know, alot of retired sumo wrestlers

(46:27):
create their own chicken hotpot,uh, Chunkanaban um experiences.
And one of our bestsellers inJapan is one of one such retired
sumo wrestler who created thissumo wrestling and chicken
hotpot experience, hugebestseller.
Um, and that that's just supercool.
So, you know, I always like tosay that the best and most
successful experience is stillto be created, and it's full

(46:47):
fully a function of the humaningenuity of experience
creators.

SPEAKER_01 (46:50):
Yeah, I love that you highlighted that thing, then
the power of personal connectionand specifically the impact you
can have on people's lives.
Because I think clearly you andI are driven by, I guess, a
similar desire, which is to seethat impact be realized.
Like it's just like there'snothing I don't think that is
nearly as fulfilling for me, andit certainly seems like for you,
Tao Tao, is like when yourealize the benefit you've had

(47:12):
on someone else's life,livelihood, and created an
opportunity for them like that.
Um, but you said it really well,and that's what I was I wanted
to give you the floor tohighlight and underscore what is
kind of the most important thingfor everyone to pay attention to
you, is that experiences are 5xover material possessions.
And this was a graph that youyou had shown, and I was like,

(47:33):
that's it right there.
Like this is like when peoplehave travel taken away from
them, they're said, never again.
Like, I'm never going to takefor granted the opportunity to
travel.
And I'm gonna see and thisconcept of revenge travel, which
I never liked that terminology,and this kind of like, oh, it's
revenge travel, and revengetravel will be exhausted.
It's like, no, no, no, no, no.
Like, yes, people have money setaside, but this has

(47:54):
fundamentally changed people'spriorities and perspective.
So this is not a short-termphase, this is a long-term
trend.
And you know the numbers,obviously, you use the word
conviction, which I love aswell, because I still remember
when investors started talkingabout having conviction on the
multi-day tour category and justconviction on tours, that it's
just like we are convincedthere's a ma there's a massive

(48:14):
opportunity here, and we'recommitted to getting involved in
it.
We'll be right back.

SPEAKER_00 (48:20):
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SPEAKER_01 (50:07):
And now, back to the show.
So the things I would love toask you now, kind of looking
forward with Get Your Guide,given the position that you are
in and your growth plans, tellus a little bit about what
you're looking to in 2026 interms of either new markets, new
experiences.
And of course, I'm very keen totouch on multi-day as well

(50:28):
because I know you're testingthat in some markets.
But tell us what you as a teamare really focusing on and
prioritizing for 2026.

SPEAKER_02 (50:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
So um so we're already in themidst of doing that planning and
lots of exciting things and loveto share more once we can uh
once we can talk about them andthe comms team allows me to talk
about them.
So first of all, we have so wehave a very exciting product
release coming out at the end ofthe month.
Um and so we've we've now donethe um we've now done the uh the

(50:57):
the we have now a ritual whereyou know on a on a half-year
basis we we share all the keyproduct features releasing,
especially for the creator sideof things, um experienced
creators, all the operators.
Um then we have, as I mentioned,a lot of these event series uh
in Berlin and Bangkok where weinvite our top partners um to
come and we usually have someexciting keynote speakers.

(51:18):
Um we have some greatpartnerships in the pipeline.
Um so if you have any you knowpartners like airlines or hotel
platforms or credit cardcompanies who are interested in
partnering with us, you know,let us know we have you know
lots of great ones already inplace and lots of great in the
pipeline.
Um but always the most excitingthing that always excites me the
most is really um what uh whatinnovation are we driving?

(51:41):
And and you hinted at multi-dayand category expansion is
definitely one of those growthvectors that we'll continue to
pull on, which is to go bothwider and deeper in the
categories that we play in.
So going deeper means um reallythinking about you know in tours
and you know tickets, um, howcan we further um improve the
customer experience and alsogoing wider.

(52:02):
So um early this year um westarted going much more into
multi-day, um, also shows andevents and and adding product
features there.
Um, because it's just part ofthe part of the consideration
set when customers go to NewYork, uh, when they go to
London, um, and for multi-daywhen they go to when they go to,
for example, uh Vietnam.
So when I was in Vietnam, I dida um four-day, multi-day, um,

(52:25):
you know, the typical Halong Baycruise with you know some day
trips added to it.
Um it's just you know part ofthe planning process.
So um we're very excited aboutum category expansion in
particular.

SPEAKER_01 (52:35):
That's great.
And I realize, yes, you have tobe mindful in terms of, and I I
guess uh I should have rephrasedthe question a little
differently, which was more justin terms of the trends that you
that may or may not be what getyour guide moves into, but just
some of the trends that you'repaying attention to, because I'm
assuming like uh the multi-daytour one is obviously um, I see
that as being a long-term trendin terms of the fact that you

(52:56):
have this combination of solotravelers, um especially solo
female travelers, half of whichare divorced or widowed, so
they're looking to travel withgroups.
You've got this young generationcoming up behind that is uh as
Intrepid and others will referto as like the loneliness
epidemic.
They've never been moreconnected than ever, but they've
never felt as isolated as theydo now.
So they're seeking outexperiences.
And even EF just did a recentreport that more young people

(53:19):
are interested, uh they're lessinterested in dating apps than
they are on going on uh grouptravel experiences, which having
worked for Kentiki for almost adecade, you know, these things
existed.
And so yeah, I was just uhgenuinely curious about some of
the other travel trends thatyou're paying attention to,
whether it be you know shifts insociety or even the Asian market
coming back in a massive waythat we haven't uh fully seen

(53:42):
yet.
That's something that's uh soyeah, what are some of the other
just in general trends thatagain may or may not be part of
what get your guides focused on?
Because I know you need to behave to be mindful there.

SPEAKER_02 (53:52):
No, absolutely.
So um there is a couple uh Ithink that's a great question.
So uh give you a couple oftrends um along a couple of
different um dimensions.
Um so one of them is um thinkingabout uh geographies, and and
you you highlighted the keything, which is Asia.
Um Asia, we're seeing phenomenalgrowth, both from an Asian
customer perspective.
Um I mean, remember justJapanese customers, they were

(54:14):
locked in their country forthree years.
I mean, that's you know, in inEurope or North America we
complain about COVID, but youknow, they were um locked in and
locked up for three years,meaning also nobody could go in
and um and experience uh thegreatness of Japan.
And and so we're seeingtremendous growth in Asia, both
from a customer perspective andfrom a destination perspective.
And that is something we'rewe're leaning on heavily.

(54:37):
Um, you know, that's why we'realso doing this um big event now
in Bangkok, um, because Asia,frankly, is a is a major, major
market for us, uh, along withthe US and Europe.
Um, another trend that we'reseeing is more in terms of the
types of experiences.
And what's interesting is peopleare really into um the type of
experience where you learnsomething.
So workshops, uh, I mean, thecooking classes were always big.

(55:00):
Um, but now we're seeing, youknow, for example, just myself,
when I was in Japan um earlierthis year, I did a knife making
workshop, which I absolutelyloved.
So starting from hammering youriron and unlearning why you have
to fold the iron to get theimpurities out, and then you
sharpen it, and then you haveyour final knife, which you can
take home.
And that's just an amazingexperience, right?

(55:21):
That's better than buying theknife for a souvenir shop.
It's better than just watchingknife making on TV, but you get
to make your own knife.
That's the perfect memory.
And and that's a huge trend thatwe're seeing.
And that's also a lot of theinnovation on the operator side
that we're seeing.
Um, a lot.
So it's a little bit this what Imentioned early days, you know,
15 years ago, it was walkingtour plus souvenir shop.

(55:42):
We've come a long way fromthere.
And it's just also going a lotmore into not niche, but into
very unique interests that caterto a very unique audience
because of platforms like EtiYour Guide, you can actually
reach those smaller audiences,but the small audience globally
is still big enough um for youto make a business on.
So I would say those are twovery big trends um that we're

(56:05):
seeing.
So Asia and the and thelearning.

SPEAKER_01 (56:08):
Thank you for both of those.
I yeah, and just when youhighlighted the um uh whether
it's uh knife making or swordmaking in Japan, I was wondering
when you finish that, do you getto take that home with you?
Is that can that come on theplane?

SPEAKER_02 (56:18):
Yes, of course, just not in carry-on, not in
carry-on, which they remind youof.
And and also you don't get tomake this sword because doing a
sword.
So, first of all, the knife thatI made, I wouldn't, it's not I I
mean, I don't I don't cut withit.
It's it's it's sharp, but it'sit's it's it's not well done.
And for a knife, you wouldactually need for a whole sword
you would need multiple dates.

SPEAKER_01 (56:38):
Right.
I just have a few more questionsfor you, Tao, and I'm gonna do
some rapid fire right at theend.
It's really interesting when youmentioned about the sword
making, one of the companiesthat's re-entering the space,
Airbnb experiences.
It's one of the things theyhighlighted with sword making in
Japan.
And clearly they went away,they're coming back now.
I've seen some of their latestcommercials.
What's your overall view ontheir reintroduction?

(56:59):
What I mean by that is clearlythere's gonna be competition.
But what I often see, I'll usethe example with River Cruises,
for example, working withUniworld for many years, when
Viking ran commercials, we gotmore Uniworld bookings.
And so there's certainlysomething to be said for lifting
the category and creatinggrowth.
And so just genuinely curious toknow what your view is on Airbnb
going back into experiences.

SPEAKER_02 (57:21):
Yeah, so so you gave exactly the answer.
So I think it's amazing.
Um, I love that Airbnb isbringing attention to the
category.
Um, you know, I love that allthese companies are talking
about experiences.
I I think ultimately the youknow, the fact that so many
businesses, both in corporatesettings but auto-consumer
settings and online and inadvertising talk about

(57:41):
experiences is amazing.
Because, you know, I think youknow, you know, we work in the
industry and it's very clearthat you can use something like
Get Your Guide to bookexperiences, but it's not like
100% of you know the world'spopulation knows that.
So anyone who can bringattention to it, um, I think
that that just lifts the boat,um, that lifts the tide for all
boats.

SPEAKER_01 (57:58):
Yeah, that's great.
And it's a very much a growthmindset mentality, which is why
I wanted to ask you thatquestion, because you know, from
the beginning of your journey towhere you guys are now, um, it's
such an incredible, inspiringsuccess story.
And I think that you guys arestill on the cusp.
I think the growth that you guyscan have in the next five years
is going to be immense.
And so I'm sure you've got yourprojections on what the business

(58:20):
can look like.
You've got a great team that'sdriving it forward.
So I just had a couple lastquestions for you on a more
personal level and then a couplea few rapid fire questions.
So if you're if you are lookingback now at the younger Tau from
2006, 2007, um, what advicewould you give yourself knowing
what you know now?

SPEAKER_02 (58:38):
Yeah, I'll probably send him like a book on like uh
no, I think I think there um mytake is there's probably good
advice at different stages.
There's not just one advice.
Um it's funny, I tell you aquick story.
So um one one one of ourinvestors um um they they worked

(58:59):
in a place that had 100,000 pluspeople, um, without going into
details.
But and when we um asked him foradvice on so what advice do you
have?
And and it was great because hecaveated his answer with asking
us how many employees do youhave?
And you know, back then it'slike maybe 400, 300.
He said, Okay, then I give youtwo of my five advice points

(59:21):
because the last three I tellyou when you're bigger.
So but I I think that's but Ithink that's really the key key
thing, which is um at differentstages, um, it's very different.
I think the meta point I wouldrather give is just be in just
ferocious learning mode, right?
That growth mindset that youmentioned.
You know, I always tell youngfounders your only competitive

(59:43):
advantage is that you can work alittle bit harder and that you
are a faster learner than theincumbents, right?
That's those are the only twoassets that you have starting
off.
And and that is one of theassets that I think we still
lean in.
And I still like to claim thatyou know we're ferocious
learner.
You know, understanding problemsand adapting to them.

(01:00:04):
And that is certainly ameta-piece of advice that will
always help entrepreneurs.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:08):
Very cool.
And how would you describe theculture that you've created at
Get Your Guide?
What is the managementphilosophy or the overall
corporate culture?
Because clearly people loveworking with your company.
I've met many of your teams.
I've obviously the privilege tomeet a few of you guys and from
outside looking in, which it'ssuch an impressive group of team
that you've built and people whohave stayed with you for a long
time.

(01:00:28):
So tell us a little bit aboutyour culture and why you guys
have uh are able to thrive asyou open new offices around the
world.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:36):
I always like to say that you never ask leadership
about the culture because theywill tell you anything.
Um and I think you already saidit yourself.
It's it's best to ask the folkswho work at a place, they will
give you the the the honestanswer.
Now, I can give you the strategythat we have, uh, but I'm glad
to hear that you know you'rehearing similar things from the
market.
Our strategy has always beenthat we want to really codify

(01:00:58):
our culture around principles,and um, you know, lots of
companies have done that.
And some of our principles arearound uh learning.
So um, you know, personal growthis very important for us, um,
setting a very high bar andfollowing through, so high
passion for things.
Um high curiosity.
So we always say that you knowum you know lead with curiosity

(01:01:18):
because a lot of the problemsthat we have to solve have not
been solved before.
If you think about it, um therehas never been a service
marketplace built at our scaleever, right?
So all marketplaces historicallyhave been based on goods, um, or
you could argue hotels as a typeof service as well, but it's
very different, right?
Because that's brick and mortar.
You sell basically a bed, uh,which is very different than we

(01:01:41):
are a pure marketplace forservices, which hasn't done at
that scale globally.
So we have to solve very, veryunique problems.
Um, you know, we have thoseleadership principles and we um
treat them very seriously.
So we interview based on them,we promote based on them, um, we
um give feedback, um, includingthe annual performance review,

(01:02:01):
um, partially based on them.
So you have to really understandwhat your culture is, and that
has to be, I would say, 80% umreality and 20% aspiration.
So it cannot be fullyinauthentic, it has to be
authentic, but also a little bitaspirational.
And so you want to really codifythat um and then treat that as a
North Star because you know,there's the famous saying that

(01:02:23):
culture eats strategy forbreakfast.
Uh it's very, very true.
You know, strategy can copy.
If you get the hand on our memo,then you know the strategy does
not mean that you can execute inthe same way.
And that goes back to what wediscussed earlier of what is
truly the differentiation.
It goes back to execution andthat goes back to culture.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:39):
Yeah.
Well, and and just to just tocall out the names, like Josh
Montgomery, who obviously worksdirectly with you in the US, he
was one of those people thatjust, you know, he had uh so
many glowing things to say aboutyou and just an open
conversation about get your guyin the company.
And then Reese, who put us intouch again recently, who's a
newer one of your team members,also felt empowered to say, wait
a second, I want us to beinvolved in what you guys are

(01:02:59):
doing.
So that's where to me, acrossthe culture of the business,
I've certainly seen that.
Uh, but in terms of a few finalquestions, I just want to our
listeners, since they've gottento know you so well in a
conversation, and and uh as wehave this final rapid fire, I'm
just gonna tell you that I'm notgonna box you in like Douglas
Quimby does with giving you aneither-or answer and trying to
force you to choose.

(01:03:20):
I've seen you navigate thatexceptionally well on stage, but
I uh I've gotta give you a fewopen-ended questions.
If you um uh if you weren'trunning get your guide, what
career do you think you'd bepursuing right now?

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:33):
Uh to be honest, absolutely no idea.
Um I think I wouldn't mind be Ithink the dream job, other than
being an entrepreneur, is maybea food influencer.
I think that looks really cool.
Uh so I keep I keep uh I wouldsay the best curated restaurant
list of Berlin.
So any of your listeners come toBerlin, uh hit me up.

(01:03:55):
Uh I have a great list.
Uh it's filtered across 25dimensions, uh 200 restaurants.
So um, yeah, I think foodinfluencer sounds super fun.
But it's a a friend of mine is afood influencer, it's a lot more
work than uh thing.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:07):
Now this one relates.
So if you could choose onetravel destination to go to
tomorrow, whether it be for aweek or a month, someone as
deeply involved in a travel asyou, what would you say is your
favorite destination and why?

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:19):
I'm I'm a huge sucker for Japan.
Uh I just think it's it's sowonderful and wondrous.
Um I think how they strike thebalance between uh tradition and
modernity and beauty and chaosum is is just incredible.
And and there is so manyincredible experiences IP just
lying around.
Um I was talking to a youngexperienced entrepreneur in

(01:04:41):
Japan, and he's created some ummanga and anime-related
experiences, and one of them isyou get to be a voice actor for
a day because the voice actressthey say us in Japan is a huge
deal, right?
So you go to a recording studio,you get to you know voice record
one of the animes, take it backhome.
So I think Japan is justwonderful.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:00):
Very cool.
And then one last question, andthis is more for all those
people out there that look toyou for inspiration and
guidance, and what tools are youusing?
So, aside from get your guide,what would be your favorite app
or a tool that you can't livewithout?

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:15):
Well, I mean, I think I think the honest answer
is probably uh my my email andand WhatsApp's uh I use
superhuman, but Gmail is just asgood.
Um But I I would say um you knowwhat one of my one of the books
that you know I read early on inmy career is uh The Effective
Executive by Peter Drucker.
It's an oldie but goodie.
And and one of the in in chapterone, he talks about um you have

(01:05:35):
to manage your time.
So, you know, uh I think beyondthe one tool, I think it's just
constantly reviewing how you'respending your time is the best
way to make sure that you keepworking on the most important
things.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:49):
Well, on that note, I can't thank you enough for
sharing your valuable time withus.
I uh, as all of our listenersknow, I have huge respect for
you and get your guide, and I'mvery excited to see where this
company grows in the next fiveor ten years.
And I'm sure as you can sharemore of those, we'll have you
back on the podcast and be ableto share more about Get Your
Guide.
And so I just wanted to say asincere thanks for myself, the

(01:06:11):
team at Travel Trends forjoining us today, Tao.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:13):
Great, Dan.
Thank you so much.
Really appreciate it.
And uh yeah, uh till next time.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:18):
Thanks so much for joining us on our latest episode
of Travel Trends.
I really hope you enjoyed theconversation today with Tao Tao,
the co-founder of Get YourGuide.
You can find clips andhighlights from today's
interview on our socialchannels, which are LinkedIn,
YouTube, and Instagram at TravelTrends Podcast.
And next week we continue ourCaptains of Industry season six,
and we'll be speaking to HeidiDurflinger, who is the CEO of EF

(01:06:41):
World Journeys USA.
I had the privilege to see hergive an amazing keynote at the
ATTA conference in Denver a fewmonths ago.
And I was very keen for her tojoin us as part of our Captains
of Industry in season six.
So if you don't know much aboutEF and if you haven't met Heidi
before, then you have to makesure you are subscribed on the
streaming platform of yourchoice to be notified when next

(01:07:02):
week's episode goes live.
And then if you're traveling inthe next few months and at one
of the major travel industryconferences, be sure to reach
out because I might beattending, speaking, or
recording.
And I'd love to be able tofeature anyone that is listening
to our podcast when I'mrecording at these events.
After ATTA in Chile, I'll be atthe Tourism Innovation Summit in

(01:07:22):
Seville.
And following that, I will be atthe World Travel Market in
London and then Focus Right inSan Diego.
And we still have our specialpricing for Focus Right.
If you want to check out thecode on the homepage of our
website and plan to join us forFocus Right in San Diego.
Now, next week we are also goingto be highlighting our AI

(01:07:43):
summit, which is only a coupleof weeks away, and some of the
prizes and incentives that wehave lined up.
So make sure you are registered.
Check outtraveltrendspodcast.com for more
information.
Until next week, safe travels.