Rail Travel in 2025 Part 1 with Rail Europe

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
I worked in different cultures.
You know I worked in Germanyand Italy, a couple of years in
Switzerland, now in France.
And what I see is that theapproaches, specifically when we
deal with global internationalteams, the approaches are quite
different, but supporting,believing and having a clear
objective is, for me, the mainthing how we get really people

(00:26):
contributing and making themsuccessful at the end.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hello everyone and welcome to Travel Trends, season
5, episode 11.
This is your host, danChristian, and we're about to
begin our two-part deep diveinto the world of rail travel.
We just finished our Africansafari series and a couple of
weeks from now we're going tostart our guided touring series.
But before we do that, I wantedto bring this two-part series
together.
We're going to speak to the CEOof Rail Europe on today's

(00:54):
conversation, bjorn Bender, andthen, on part two, we're going
to speak to Frank Marini, who isthe CEO of Rail Bookers Two
equally fascinatingconversations, coming at this
from two different perspectives.
Rail Europe, of course, thatoffers rail tickets all across
Europe and the year rail passthat many people are familiar
with.
Rail bookers offers packagedholidays that combine rail with

(01:18):
a package tour, and I think thisis where you'll see some
interesting insights from bothof these conversations about
where this industry is headed.
I love traveling by rail.
I love the experience ofarriving in the heart of a
destination, I love the fact youget to look out at beautiful
landscapes and you get to meetlocals, and I just like the
whole experience of traveling bytrain.

(01:38):
But when we actually look atthe numbers, that's what really
excites me and why I wanted tobring this conversation to life,
because, if you look at othersectors of travel take, for
example, river cruise the entireriver cruise industry is about
1.6 billion today and over thenext three or four years will
likely be around $2 billion,whereas rail travel is about $84

(01:59):
billion today and is expectedto grow to about $128 billion in
sales by 2028.
Expected to grow to about $128billion in sales by 2028.
And there's some interestingdifferences and nuances, like
when you look at the cruiseindustry.
For example, when we did ourdeep dive in a cruise, most of
the money stays with the cruiselines, unlike, say, with
adventure travel.
You'll hear Shannon Stoll talkabout this and that was one of

(02:19):
the great ways we kicked offseason four with Shannon and
we're now doing a quarterlyepisode with ATCA and Travel
Trends and the first episodewill be launching shortly,
talking about sustainability.
But one of the things you'llhear Shannon talk about is the
fact that so much of the moneythat travelers bring stays in
the destination, and that's oneof the things that rail travel
does as well.

(02:40):
People are actually twice aslikely to visit more cities,
they'll spend more onrestaurants and, as an average,
they'll spend 35% more on hotels, and so rail travel has a
greater benefit to the localeconomy, which totally makes
sense.
But when you actually thinkabout the growth potential for
this market, it is verysignificant, and that's why I

(03:01):
wanted to dive into the trendsthat are happening within rail
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Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
And now back to the show.
We're going to start with thisconversation with Bjorn Bender,
and, for those of you who aren'tfamiliar with Rail Europe,
you're going to learn a lot fromthis conversation.
The part that I certainlydidn't know is that Rail Europe

(05:12):
was actually founded in New YorkCity in the 1930s,
interestingly enough, but thecompany has continued to
innovate and transform, and theyare very focused on AI,
personalization, sustainability,accessibility, and we're going
to get into all of that with ourconversation with Bjorn today.
I just wanted to make sure thateveryone knows that we do post

(05:35):
clips and highlights from eachof these episodes on all our
social channels.
So make sure that you arechecking us out at Travel Trends
Podcast on Instagram, youtubeand LinkedIn.
And then, of course, we send outour monthly newsletter where we
summarize all the latestepisodes for the month and then
we send out an update for ourupcoming events and travels for
the month ahead, which you canregister for at

(05:58):
TravelTrendsPodcastcom.
And one of the things I justwanted to highlight around our
events having just come backfrom the amazing etc.
Educational travel consortiumconference in mobile, alabama,
we'll be launching a specialspotlight episode in the next
couple of weeks from thatconference and next week we're
going to be launching a specialspotlight on focus right europe,

(06:20):
where I will be in june and allof our listeners can get a
hundred euro discount if youwant to join us and we'll be
guaranteed to be featured on anupcoming travel trends podcast.
So that's coming up in June andin the month of May.
We're going to be at theaviation festival in Miami in
early May and then we're goingto be at ATTA, the adventure,
travel and trade associationconference in Denver at the end

(06:42):
of May.
So check outTravelTrendsPodcastcom slash
events for more details aboutwhere to find us, but let's dive
into rail travel and introduceyou to the CEO of Rail Europe,
bjorn Bender.
Bjorn, thanks so much forjoining us on Travel Trends.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
Thanks, dan, for having me Super happy being here
, so getting excited.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
Awesome.
Well, I think everyone got agood idea about your background
from that introduction, but Iobviously want people to learn a
little bit more right off thetop about how such a young and
successful guy has risen to thisposition, and because many of
our listeners are making theirway up in the industry or
looking to advance in theindustry, and so I would love if

(07:22):
we wouldn't mind, starting theconversation, tell us a bit more
about your personal backgroundand what led you to become the
CEO of Rail Europe.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, so you said young Dan, but yes, I'm actually
20 years already in mobilityand innovation, and, yes, it's
been a ride, I can sayinnovation, and yes, it's, it's
been a ride, I can say, and um,what is fascinating still for me
, of course, is um turningdreams into, into, into real
world systems, and this isexactly, uh, what we do today in

(07:50):
real europe, and we come tothis um a bit later, but what
brought me into mobility isreally, um, the emotional part
on it.
You know how to really connectpeople, how to connect places,
and I started in aviation.
I worked 15 years for Europeanrailway carriers and then I got
the opportunity to take over theCEO role.

(08:11):
And from my personal background, I always say I'm a German, I
live in Switzerland, I work inParis and I have a Swedish name,
so let's call me a European,and this is maybe already a good
starting point for ourdiscussion.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
Absolutely.
I mean we've got such a globalaudience.
I mean there's listeners now in125 countries and we're so
proud, as we're in Season 5,that we've become the most
popular B2B podcast globally andwe've never focused on rail
before.
So this is actually excitingfor me because I love traveling
by rail.
I love European rail inparticular.

(08:44):
I wish Canada had put moreinfrastructure and the US
eventually with high-speed rail.
So I've got so many questionsfor you.
But, given this role, how didyou actually get into rail
itself?
Was it always a passion for you?

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Actually it was by chance, as I said.
So I started really in mystudies in university with,
let's say, businessadministration, majoring
mobility or transport as it wascalled back in the days, and of
course I wanted to start, youknow, in the sexy part of the
mobility industry.
So it was aviation and I startedfor an airline and and then

(09:18):
when I really got my firstopportunity in Deutsche Bahn, so
the German railways, it was 27.
I must say this part of themobility industry was almost
dying.
So no one was putting a cent ora dollar on rail at this time,
not even in Europe.
And I had the chance to takeover fascinating roles in this

(09:42):
railway company, so going intointernational sales, going into
new mobility, going intoinnovation.
And during the 15 years Iworked for the state on carriers
, the picture changed completely, you know, not only because, of
course, the needs of thesociety changed so climate
change, all of this COVID hit,etc.
But also of course,specifically in Europe, we look

(10:02):
completely different on the railpart today and I got more and
more fascinated about thebackbone of the mobility
industry and what rail canreally solve in terms of
problems we face but also bringin terms of added value to our
day-to-day life.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
That's great.
Well, I know the company now isnearly 100 years old.
Here we are in 2025, and itgoes all the way back to the
1930s.
And I think one of the things Icame to understand as I was
doing some research andpreparing for our conversation
is that the concept for RailEurope was very much designed to
serve an international travelermarket coming into Europe.
Clearly, obviously, the railsare primarily designed for
transport within Europe itself.

(10:39):
I mean, you yourself obviouslylive in Switzerland, commute to
Paris, so there's so many greatuses for rail, but one of them,
as that relates to, obviously,travel trends, is international
travelers.
So tell us a little bit more, Iguess, about the legacy of Rail
Europe.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
And then, if you wouldn't mind, how that actually
relates to kind of the moderninnovation and trends that you
need are need to adapt yourbusiness to in in travel.
Yeah, absolutely so.
As you said correctly, then,the company was founded in the
30s of the last century,actually in the us uh, outside
of new york city.
So we always say we have the1930s heritage and we have the
2030s mindset and, of course,it's a bit clear when we look
back on 100 years that there islegacy.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
Yes, On the other side.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
We belonged for almost the entire period to a
state-owned carrier called SNCF,so the French Railways and Rail
Europe got independent exactlythree years back.
So since 2022, we are privateequity backed and we are a
global, neutral, agnostic trainticket platform for European

(11:53):
train travel.
It was already the case before,but, of course, if you belong
to one specific carrier, it'salways different than being a
complete neutral and independentplatform.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah, it's fascinating.
So tell us then, given that USconnection, when you are running
a global business but based inEurope, where are you seeing
your travelers primarily comingfrom?
What markets are you?
I know you've got like 200operators, you've got this
massive network to manage, but,yeah, how does it work in terms
of the types of customers andwhere they're coming from?

Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yeah, exactly.
Let me add this quickly whatyou said Exactly.
We are, let's say, combining200 trained providers on one
platform and, of course,specifically when it comes to
cross-border travels, tointernational travels, to
multinational travels, we aretalking about a patchwork of
different railway systems inEurope.

(12:42):
So it's getting quite fast,quite complex from the consumer
perspective, and we always saywe are kind of the translator of
the harmonizer, of the brokerin between to make train travel
as easy as possible.
And when we talk about the US weare talking already about our
number one market and maybe it'sa bit about our history, but

(13:07):
it's of course, because thetravel demand into Europe out of
the US is that high andparticularly Americans want to
see different destinations,different countries within a
couple of days, or let's say oneor two weeks when they travel
to Europe.
So, yes, we sell today still 35, 40% of our business, of our
tickets in the US.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
Fascinating.
And then what about B2B versusB2C?
How important are travel agentsversus independent travelers?
Because obviously you've got agreat e-commerce booking
platform, so I'm assuming you'redriving a lot of direct
business.
But how do you, I guess,balance both of those interests?

Speaker 1 (13:39):
Yeah, super important is the B2B network, because we
are really, from our DNA, let'ssay, b2b company.
We were always looking on thetravel consultants, on the
travel advisors, particularlyalso in the US.
We do have several products forthe B2B part and it's still two
third.
One third, to answer yourquestion very direct.

(14:00):
So two-third of our business isstill B2B.
Yes, with a growing part, withan increasing part for the
direct consumer side, but onlytalking about the ratio, not
talking about the absolutenumbers.
So the connection to theindustry, particularly when it
comes to international travel,where a lot of education is
important, where a lot of travelplanning is necessary, is very

(14:23):
important.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah, that's fascinating to me.
I mean it makes total sense.
I mean there's been such arevival of travel advisors in
the trade, despite theirpredicted demise over the last
20 years, and they have becomemore important than ever, almost
post-COVID for many reasons.
So many companies like yourselfthat actually have those
partnerships have been able toflourish by them.
So I'd love to know, just in2025 with rail travel, when you

(14:48):
mentioned the two-thirdsone-third?
Obviously I always look atbusiness growth as it's not a
zero-sum game.
Clearly you want to grow B2Band you want to grow B2C.
Where are you seeing the growthand how significant is the
growth for rail europe in 2025?

Speaker 1 (15:05):
yeah.
So we really need to, we reallyneed to separate, uh, two
perspectives because, um, ofcourse, the b2b part is still
increasing, but what we see is amore and more mature audience
traveling to europe.
So we don't have only the firsttimers anymore.
They want to see I don't knowLondon, paris, rome, amsterdam,
so the classical spots.

(15:25):
Now we see, of course, a highdemand for let's call it tier
two cities in Europe, hiddengems maybe it's a better wording
and, of course, a more maturetarget group and more
independent target group.
So even people let's stick tothe US example maybe booked a
package in the past with hoteland flight through a tour

(15:47):
operator.
They are booking independentlytoday their flight, their hotels
and their train tickets.
And if you look on us, we see a20% growth last year, so 24
compared to 23.
And this is pretty similar whenwe look on the increase out of
the American market into Europe.
So you see an increase by 15,17, 18%.

(16:07):
It depends on the perspective,on overall travel numbers.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
Right, there's a question there.
I definitely want to ask youabout the hidden gems.
I'm going to come back to thatin just a moment, because one of
the things I actually think itwould be, worth noting for our
listeners is for them tounderstand the competitive
landscape.
And when my wife and I traveledthrough Europe, obviously we got
our Eurorail passes and we wenton and we had the most
extraordinary time, which is whyI have such a positive
association of European railtravel, and it is a romantic way

(16:33):
to travel.
People had said to me a numberof times before we went make
sure you sleep on a train or getsome sleeper trains, because
you'll have the best sleep ofyour life.
It's like you're being in thewomb again because you just hear
the pulsing of, like yourmother's heartbeat.
And that was all these thingsthat people talked up the train
and you know what.
They were right.
It's like it is a sensationalway to travel and I know it's
becoming more and more relevant,giving sustainability and some

(16:54):
of the things we should talkabout there.
But when we think of, or whensomeone like myself is thinking
about, traveling to Europe.
What are the options for them?
I know, beyond rail Europe,clearly you have competitors, so
like the Eurail pass, forexample, how?
What is that?
What is the competitivelandscape look like for you?

Speaker 1 (17:14):
Yeah, thanks for highlighting already the Eurail
experience.
The Eurail experience, then,it's the best way to point it
out, because, you know,sometimes it's even difficult to
understand for our B2B partnersor even for end consumers that
we have different kind ofproducts.
And the separation, or maybethe two different aspects
between a point-to-point ticketwhere you buy I don't know a

(17:37):
Eurostar ticket from London toParis, compared to a Eurail pass
.
It's a completely differentproduct in the way you sell it,
in the way of the length of thetravel duration, but also, of
course, what you need inaddition, because I don't know
if you can remember, but if youhave a Eurail pass, there are
open systems in Europe where youcan just enter a train, like in

(18:02):
Germany, in Austria, inSwitzerland, you can just board
a train with the Euril Pass andyou can travel wherever you want
to go In France, in the UK, inSpain, italy.
It's completely differentbecause it works like an airline
system.
So you need to have a seatreservation.
A train can be fully booked andthere's no possibility to stand
maybe, so you need to get areservation.
You need to have a seatreservation.
A train can be fully booked andthere's no possibility to stand

(18:22):
, maybe.
So you need to get areservation, you need to queue
at a train station.
So this is the part where thecustomer pain is still high, and
selling a pass is one part ofthe journey, but selling also
reservations in addition, givinginformation about the travel
lengths.
In addition, giving informationabout the travel lengths, but
also what you just said, maybeit's the most romantic part of a

(18:45):
journey in Europe.
Yes, you can also decide whereto go or what kind of journey
you take to get to yourdestination and, yes, there are
plenty of competitors.
But at the end, I guess whatmakes the difference for us is
how we accompany our partnersand customers, specifically from

(19:06):
the customer care perspective.
So before the journey, duringthe journey and after the
journey and when you remember Iguess all of us we already
experienced the bad side oftravel.
So missing trains, havingdelays, dealing with refunds,
waiting for refunds for weeksand months you know being in
good hands and being withsomeone who understands the

(19:28):
needs from the internationalperspective.
This makes the difference.
So we invest beyond technologyand AI and maybe we can talk a
bit this later we invest still alot in human support and
accompanying them throughout theentire journey.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
Well, let's actually talk about the tech side.
I want to come back to thehidden journeys, and definitely
we'll talk about AI, for sure,and I'd really obviously want to
talk about sustainability, justgiven how one of the drivers,
obviously of rail travel'spopularity, and even myself
going to conferences, they'reencouraging me to take rail, and
so I definitely want tohighlight that.
But one of the things that youguys are known for, as I

(20:07):
understand, is your technology,and so many travel companies are
not technology companies, butRail Europe is considered to be
a global travel tech company,which I found fascinating, and
so tell us a little bit aboutyour journey on technology.
I mean, your website is veryimpressive, but tell us how you
know, because it's really it'sthe back end.
I mean, user journey is onething but like ticket booketing.

(20:29):
So yeah, tell us how you'vetransformed this business to
actually really be able to be atthe front leading edge of
technology.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah, we always say sustainability via tech, and
this means, for me, tech makesit simple and rail makes it
sustainable.
And this duo, we play with itevery day and I'm proud of how
we are using data and AI toreduce friction, to really
reduce friction and support thiskind of greener future.

(20:57):
And what does it mean inconcrete is that we harmonize
the inventory of, as I said, 200trained providers into one
technology back end platform andwe provide the entire inventory
through one API to our B2Bcustomers.
So everything you find for theentire European railway network

(21:20):
you have in one API and thenit's up to you if you integrate
it into your business, someaning into your own website,
into your packaging system, ifyou combine it with hotels and
flights, or if you use itstandalone.
And for this, specifically fortravel agencies, we offer our
rail portal.
It's a travel trade website,cloud-based.

(21:42):
Obviously, it's mainly linkedto the backend and we invest
millions of euros to develop thebackend, to have the most

(22:06):
seamless API, the fastest APIand the easiest to integrate,
and this is our benchmark.

Speaker 2 (22:12):
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Let's make sure we cover thehidden gems.
I really want to make sure thatI actually I get those from you
.
I don't want to miss thatbecause I'm sure if our
listeners are like he'smentioned it twice.
Please tell us what the hiddengems are.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
I'm actually.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
I'm going to be speaking in Germany, I'm going
to speak in Berlin at ITB onhidden gems, and I'm going to be
taking the train.
I'm going was looking at thedifferent train routes that I
can take from Monaco to Berlin,because I'm committed to taking
the train, not only because,obviously partly because it's
more sustainable, but I wouldsay, primarily because I enjoy
the experience.
So I'll have to ask you on thebest routing and where I should

(25:18):
stop on the way, because I havea weekend I finish on the Friday
, yeah, and I don't have to bein Berlin until the Monday.
So I started, I got myself allexcited, looking at ways I could
get there.
So tell our audience, if youwouldn't mind, what are some of
the hidden gems, whether citiesor places in Europe that people
are looking to experience in2025 or that are figuring out

(25:38):
for themselves.
So, yeah, tell us these hiddengems, please, bjorn.

Speaker 1 (25:42):
Yeah.
So maybe let's start with themost preferred destinations
first.
Everyone gets the sameunderstanding.
So when we talk about Europeand we talk about incoming from
overseas, we still talk aboutthe UK, France, Italy, Spain.
So those destinations remainthe top choices, top choices for
non-European travelers.

(26:04):
But what we see is and this ismaybe a bit linked to the hidden
gems or, let's say, regions andcities which are getting more
popular.
We are talking about Portugal.
We are talking about Sloveniawith a wonderful capital,
Ljubljana.
We are talking about theNordics.
We are talking about when youare in.
Vienna and many of our customersare visiting Vienna you can go

(26:28):
beyond to Budapest in Hungaryare visiting Vienna.
You can go beyond, to Budapestin Hungary.
So, you know, looking into,let's say, more cultural
highlights, looking into thebeauty of the nature beyond the
well-known destinations inEurope and, of course, getting,
let's say, off the beaten tracksin terms of the busy tourism

(26:51):
season, specifically during thesummertime.
So this is what we see more andmore and therefore we talk
about technology and we talkabout the 200 carriers, but we
still have some white points onour European map.
So we are working with ourteams to get everything done
specifically in Eastern Europe,specifically in Portugal and

(27:13):
specifically in the Nordics.
And when you talk about HiddenGems, maybe one addition, of
course, you find Hidden Gemsalso in the most popular
destinations.
So we see people not goinganymore to Paris, they want to
go to Lyon.
We see people not going anymoreonly to Amsterdam.
They want to go to Lyon.
We see people not going anymoreonly to Amsterdam.
They go to Den Haag.
So going into the city next byis also very, very popular,

(27:37):
specifically for Americans.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
Very interesting.
Okay, there's a few good tipsthere and I'm going to come back
to you after our chat, for somesuggestions for my weekend in
Europe.

Speaker 1 (27:46):
I'm not sure then if I get everything in one weekend
for you, but I try.

Speaker 2 (27:50):
I appreciate that Well maybe I can use AI to
customize an itinerary.
So let's talk about that,because you brought that up.
As it relates to technology andcertainly one of the things, we
had an AI summit last year.
Many people are still watchingthe videos from those sessions
that are almost a year old now,but they hold up even though
things have evolved so much andwe're actually going to be
announcing an event shortly.

(28:11):
So TravelTrendsPodcastcom forour listeners, you can find out
more information about our AIsummit for 2025.
But I wanted to ask you aboutyour integration of AI and how
you're leveraging it at RailEurope.
So would you mind sharing acouple of ways, because
certainly I was just going tojust set the stage for that
Bjorn In 2025, we're seeing thata lot of travelers are using it
for itinerary planning and alsothis question now of getting

(28:32):
close to the booking, like that.
How can they actually get anitinerary and then make it
bookable?
So, yeah, tell us how you guysare leveraging AI.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
So let me start with that.
I'm not you know I'm not thebiggest fan of putting all the
buzzwords yeah, in the front ofthe discussion like an ai.
Of course, we know this.
Without ai, no, no, no chanceto succeed.
But talking about ai is notenough, and talking about
agility the last 10 years isalso not enough.
So what does it mean for us?

(29:02):
It means really usingtechnology in the way we need it
for personalization, forefficiency, for smarter journeys
, as you just said in yourexample and this is maybe, from
my perspective, where mobilitycan really meet magic, because

(29:22):
tech will turn this complexityinto simplicity and this is all
about.
You know, our slogan is makingtrain travel easy and of course,
we can do it manually and wecan try hard by coding every day
.
But we can use AI, to stick tothis example now, in different
ways.
Of course, we use it forinternal processes, as I would
say every company is doing itnow for I don't know for

(29:44):
communications, for marketing,for coding, for everything where
we can leverage on.
On the other side, we need touse it for predicting what
customers are expecting from usand specifically when it comes
to profiles we know andretention, or returning
customers, then there's a big,big, big upside potential when

(30:07):
we use AI in the customer carepart.
You wanted to add something,huh, I stop here.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
Yeah, no, that's perfect.
I mean, our conversation is somuch more robust than just AI,
so I don't want to spend toomuch time on just this topic and
technology, because there's somany other wonderful things to
be able to discuss together.
I just wanted to highlight ifthere were certain developments
that you were rolling out thisyear, because there certainly is
a number of companies that aretrying to figure.
The one area we've certainlyseen is customer service.

(30:37):
People are introducing chatbots.
That's obviously been a verycommon use case.
One of the other things thatcompanies are obviously trying
to do is make sure that they'rediscoverable on AI, because it's
becoming much more important tomake sure that your brand is
being indexed like it used to bewith SEO.
So I'm sure there's a number ofinitiatives you have underway.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
So I just wanted to be able to kind of showcase a
few of those.
If you had a couple, and maybeif I can add this, then I did
not even mention our chatbot.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
Of course we also have a chatbot based on AI, but
you know, this is already kindof history.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
for me.
The next step is definitelydata, data, data and data is not
new.
We are talking about data inthe industry for the last 20
years, but now taking data andAI together to a result which
really impacts the customerexperience.
This is what we work on andthere's still a very, very long

(31:31):
way to go.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, yeah, well, let's switch gears entirely and
go back to sustainability.
So we've talked about AI in thefuture, because people will
tell you right away.
Here's the interesting stat andI'm sure you've is that the
power it takes to generate an AIsearch is seven times greater
than it takes to conduct aGoogle search.
And so there's actually aquestion about the and you've

(31:53):
probably seen these talk aboutdata centers, and these tech
companies are now investing innuclear power, like there's this
question about Canada couldbecome relevant with our cold
water to be able to host thesedata centers that run so hot and
require so much energy.
So let's talk about how RailEurope can offset that by making
sure people travel moresustainably.

(32:14):
So tell us actually I guessthat's the one thing that I'd be
keen for everyone to understandis how is rail travel more
sustainable and why are peoplechoosing it for that reason?

Speaker 1 (32:25):
I mean, if you compare all the existing studies
, it's between 15 and 20 timesmore sustainable than taking a
car.
Of course, when we talk aboutflights, it's even worse.
But what is important for mewhen we talk about

(32:46):
sustainability in the railsector?
you know we are kind of alreadyon the green side or on the good
side of the industry.
You know, everyone is imaginingthat rail travel is, of course,
reducing the carbon emissions,et cetera, et cetera, and what
is important for me is, ofcourse, that we leverage on this
.
There is an increasing targetgroup.
Jen said beyond what is reallylooking into the most
sustainable way of traveling,and, of course, this is a huge
opportunity for the industry.

(33:07):
On the other side, we aretalking about sustainability,
then, but there's an attitudeaction gap which is huge, and we
know that when it comes to thereal reasons where someone is
choosing a specific mode oftransport, sustainability, it
depends on the country and theregion.
It's between number six, sevenand eight, and the top three

(33:29):
remain the same.
It's between number six, sevenand eight, and the top three
remain the same.
It's price, safety andconvenience.
And this is exactly what we arelooking on, because we are a
distributor.
We cannot change the price, wecannot change the safety, or we
cannot improve the safety, butwe can increase the convenience.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yeah, that's fascinating and clearly I mean
this is where not only havingthe opportunity to have the
built-in network, if you've gotthe infrastructure in place
where people can get to and fromdestinations.
When I was invited to speak atthis conference in Quebec City,
which I'm really looking forwardto, they asked me to take the
train and I looked at the optionin Toronto to Quebec City.
I mean, it's like an eight-hourdrive, but it's like 14 hours

(34:07):
on the train and I was like Ican't, I can't spend two days on
a train.
I would love to, but I just andso.
But in Europe it's far morepractical and I hope it becomes
that here.
But, um, how do you competebased on sustainability when it
comes to, you know, knowing thatthere is a rising interest from
consumers, but one ofthe things I always ask our
guests on our show.
I asked them aboutsustainability and often they

(34:27):
tell me that it's not really areason why someone ultimately
decides initially to travel withyou.
But it's often a reason whypeople come back is because they
see if they're going tocontinue and clearly rail travel
is something you're going touse frequently and I know some
of the airlines in Europe toohave been kind of forced to kind
of cut their short flights.
So tell us a little bit moreabout that and how it works,

(34:49):
because I think that would beinteresting to our audience.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
I completely agree that most of the people are not
traveling by rail because it'sthe sustainable mode, but the
advantages are increasing.
You know, and take this examplenow, traveling city center to
city center, london, paris is awonderful example.
You take the Eurostar two hours30, and then you have, of
course, the benefits by taking atrain.

(35:14):
And if you go to Heathrow andyou end up in Charles de Gaulle
and you have each way a two-hourdrive to the airport, I mean,
this drives you crazy.
So we need to take the existingadvantages to bring people into
the most sustainable way oftraveling.
This is first my part.
Then we see, and this is provenby our agencies we introduced a

(35:37):
multi-provider feature, so itmeans an agent working with our
software can combine twodifferent carriers into one
booking.
So let's take the EURSA exampleagain, but not only London,
paris, let's say London,frankfurt, and this person
changed the train in Brussels orParis and taking another train
and this combined in one booking, in one itinerary, in one

(35:59):
payment process, leads agents tothe point that they sell train,
otherwise they would sell aflight, you know.
So this is a good example wheretechnology really impacts the
way we travel, and it's not only, I agree, the customer decision
.
It's the way we provide thiskind of product.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
Right, yeah, that's really interesting.
The other thing I wanted to askyou about, too, you were
mentioning about some of thehidden gems, and it's the
different styles of travel.
So, moving beyondsustainability, just looking at
the fact that, ultimately,people just want to enjoy their
holiday, especially if we'retalking about people that are
coming to Europe for the firsttime, the reality is that it's
very practical, very efficientway to get around Europe, in

(36:39):
addition to all the otherbenefits that we've both shared
here.
But when you look at how peopleare traveling today, there's
obviously there's more luxurytravelers that we've certainly
seen that as a major trend.
There's much more affluenttravelers that are looking for
luxury.
They're looking for tailor madetrips, and so what do you see
in terms of the actual productexperience with either luxury

(36:59):
rail or these tailored vacations?
What are you seeing gainingtraction and, I guess, how are
you expanding your productofferings to address that?

Speaker 1 (37:10):
expanding your product offerings to address
that?
Yeah, I mean look, look,exactly what you just said.
Um, the demand for first class,specifically for international
travelers, increased a lotyearly between 15 and 25 percent
yearly increase for first classtravel.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
It's it's really impressive to see.

Speaker 1 (37:24):
Second is, of course, you have new offers.
You're're not taking theBerlin-Paris day train, for
instance, just introduced inDecember.
Now you can travel fromParis-Berlin or the other way
around in a day train.
Before it was partially in anight train or not possible at
all.
In one journey and this ismaybe the biggest change you can

(37:46):
book in advance 12 months.
So the booking horizon change.
Now you're looking more like anairline on the entire setup.
Before it was quite challengingbecause some carriers only
offered three to six monthsbooking horizon and for
international travelers theybook sometimes you know this six
, nine, 10 months in advance.
Impossible to get the trainticket.

(38:07):
So what do they do?
They book the flight.
You know, and this is alsoimpacting.
You mentioned night trains, dan.
Night trains is an increasingpart of the European rail system
and you have plenty of newoffers available to Prague, to
Amsterdam, to Berlin, etc.
But it takes time, you know,because the industry did not
invest into this part for quitea while, and to get the rolling

(38:31):
stock back, to get modern trains, to get the infrastructure, to
get the slots, it takes years.
But it's also increasingstepwise and we will see a
complete different offer everyDecember, when the timetable
change is upcoming.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yeah, that's very interesting.
I'm glad to hear that the nighttrains are increasing in
popularity Because, you know,just highlighting that is like
it's one of those reasons thatpeople may not choose to take a
train ride is because it'sovernight, like seen as a pain
point or frustration.
But obviously the clearfrustration for me is waiting is
getting to an airport, waitingtwo hours at the airport, and
the best example that you justprovided for sure from my

(39:08):
experience, is the Eurostar.
I love taking the Eurostar toand from Paris, from London, and
I've taken that trip multipletimes.
And even one colleague said tome oh, you just need to get
there half an hour before, and Ialmost got tripped up on that
because you still need to passcustoms.
So there still is.
They still recommend gettingthere an hour before, but even
still, there'll be the nexttrain coming up.

(39:28):
So you also have the frequencyof trains running back and forth
.
If, for any reason, you did, youmissed your train.
But and so I guess this.
I find this really intriguingbecause I love the whole
experience, the in terms of howyou guys are adapting for
customers, because one of thethings that well, whether
it's-end customers or justfrequent travelers, when it

(39:51):
comes to the passes they can buy.
What are some of the thingsthat I guess you're adapting to
to make the experience morepersonalized and more
interesting?
How does the rail pass systemwork today?
Because I haven't.
It's been a few years for me,and we used to have this packet
of tickets and then we coulddecide which ones we use it on,
and we tried to do the math tofigure out was it worth using

(40:14):
one of our 10 passes today basedon the cost of the train ride.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
So tell us a little bit about how, how, how that
works.
Yeah, I mean, I mean the pastproduct itself did not change.
Luckily it did not change then.
But of course what we buildaround um is changing, uh,
dramatically in a positive, in apositive sense.
Um, you know, you, you need toimagine we do have roughly
11,000 kilometers high-speedrail in Europe.
So let's say, what is it?
7,000 miles?

(40:37):
And of course you can travelEurostar, you can travel ICE TGV
quite fast, 250 kilometers perhour on a pass.
This is comfortable, but youneed to have a reservation.
We can sell the reservation, wecan give all the travel
information needed, et cetera.
But on the same holidays ormaybe one day later, you want to

(40:58):
experience a panoramic train inSwitzerland and you want to
cruise through the Alps or alongthe lake or whatever.
So it's a completely differentjourney because we're not
talking about high speed anymore, we're talking about a
different train class, windows,a different experience, maybe
from lunch or dinner on thetrain.
So every service starting fromus but not ending with us, also

(41:22):
with the carriers changed a lot,changed a lot.
Now we are not only lookinginto Classy Express, bernernina
express, which are very popularstill, obviously, in switzerland
, but you have so many smallerones, um, um, maybe creating
almost the same experience, andspecifically in high season, you

(41:43):
know, for non-europeans thereare plenty of options to take a
train.
Um, as I said, one day nighttrain, the second day high speed
and the third day you do apanoramic journey in Austria,
switzerland or France, and thiscombined in one, let's say,
travel experience, starting withthe distribution part and
giving the information, givingall the tickets needed and even

(42:05):
lifetime or real-timeinformation.
This is our job and this iswhere we invested a lot and
probably the product youexperienced changed in a
positive way.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
Yeah, absolutely Well , it's so interesting.
I mean, when I was looking atmy trip and I was seeing some of
the new direct like you've gota new direct Berlin to Paris in
eight hours and I was looking atsome of the most popular
destinations which are clearlybetween major hubs.
So one of the things I wasgoing to ask you, but clearly
they're.
You know, paris to London,London to Edinburgh, paris to
Amsterdam, barcelona, likeyou've got, obviously, all the

(42:36):
key destinations in WesternEurope.
I know there's a couple ofcountries you don't go to, like
Portugal or Ireland, becauseobviously that's you'd have to
build another tunnel to getthere, but you, you clearly go
everywhere pretty much inWestern Europe and I guess I'd
love to understand, uh, highspeed rail and how that factors
in, cause I was always, when wetook our trip, we were always
trying to figure out taking oneof the high speed trains.

(42:58):
So tell us, um, where for allof our listeners, cause many of
them wouldn't know, and I I'mnot clear on it myself when are
the high speed trains and arethose being further introduced?

Speaker 1 (43:09):
yeah, um, yes, they are further introduced and you
know, take, take this example ofliberalization.
Maybe it's a good example.
Um, in europe, the markets areopen for 20 years now, so every
competitor can run trains inevery european country.
But it started.
So the competition startedmaybe five, seven, nine years

(43:32):
back.
And now, when you look intoSpain and take this Madrid
Barcelona example, you have four, four high-speed carriers
competing to each other.
So you have the samecircumstances as we have in
aviation for years.
So, and it means a customer canchoose.
I mean, all are high-speed,first of all, but they can
choose on the product.
They want to have more luxury,less luxury, the timing, loyalty

(43:55):
programs, and you'll findreally terrorists starting from
19 euros.
So one, one, nine connectingBarcelona and Madrid, and you
have the same in Italy.
When you look into Rome andMilan, for example, you have two
high-speed carriers.
You have the same in Austria,you have more and more the same
in Germany and in France,upcoming competition.

(44:18):
So, yes, there is a lot of morehigh speed in terms of
infrastructure because theEuropean Union, all the
countries, all the railwaycarriers are investing billions,
in part of or under theumbrella of the European Green
Deal until 2030 ininfrastructure, but on the other
side, you have plenty ofinvestments into rolling stock

(44:39):
from new private carriersupcoming and competing against
the state-owned ones or theincumbents, and this leads, of
course, to a better experience,or a customer experience at the
end, because prices are gettingcheaper, the quality is getting
higher and, of course, theoffers are getting more and more

(44:59):
.
So this picture is completelychanging, and this is since I
work in the industry and I saidin the beginning, for 20 years.
For me personally, it's thefirst time we can really change
the mobility landscape in Europeand hopefully being a kind of a
role model globally.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
That's fascinating.
Actually, when you say mobility, the one thing that always
comes to mind is accessibility,and actually there's a number of
startups and a number ofinteresting businesses that have
been launched Trans Report inthe UK, for example.
They focused on accessibility,and I found this quite
fascinating because I work witha lot of travel startups, and

(45:38):
there's a company called Wheelthe World, and it's not a
company I work with, but oneI've become intrigued by,
because there's three founders.
One of them was in a caraccident.
They're close friends and allof a sudden it kind of opened
their eyes to the fact that itis a real challenge for people
with disabilities to be able totravel.
And so actually you prompted areally great question there,

(45:58):
which I'd love to ask you forthe listeners that either have
disabilities or know someonewith them and they still want to
go to Europe and do an amazingrail trip if they're in a
wheelchair or so how do youactually approach that?

Speaker 1 (46:09):
that would I'd be keen to know yeah, so we service
them in the best way we can,meaning we providing everything
what the carriers are offering.
You know we cannot, of course,we have no additional service
for, for for people who are notable to I don't't know to take
stairs, etc.

(46:29):
But in almost every station,almost every carrier is
providing additional services.
You can book in advance and ofcourse, we do this as well.
And the inclusive part, or theinclusion in general, is a very,
very important one,specifically in Europe, as you
know, because you have all thelaws and all the perspectives,
specifically when it comes topublic transport, that it needs

(46:52):
to be easier than individualtransport, specifically for
disabled people.
So absolutely, absolutely inthe focus and we have plenty of
international travelers reallytraveling by train with
disabilities- We'll be rightback.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
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(50:07):
I want to get back to where ourconversation started, which is
your leadership, and obviouslyyes, I reference you're a young
guy and I'm clearly you've got.
You have a great deal ofexperience, but in the grand
scheme of things, you're afairly young guy, clearly very
successful.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
Obviously you're well-spoken, you're
well-educated, you've risen upin the industry, but one of the
things that we often don't talkabout is the challenges we face
along the way, and so I wouldlove if you wouldn't mind

(50:46):
sharing, like what, one of thebiggest lessons you've learned
in your role or your journey tobecome CEO that you might be
able to be keen to share orimpart to other people that are
kind of on their way up in thein the travel industry.
Yeah, thanks.
Thanks for asking this question, dan, because, yes, I learned
plenty of sessions and we havechallenges and problems every
day and we are failing every day.
So this is, I guess, mostimportant.
What I learned is that, fromthe management perspective, or
C-level perspective, it's on usto provide the right frame and,

(51:09):
in the frame, to give as muchfreedom as possible to our team.
So meaning, empower teams,trust them, giving really the
freedom to find their own ways.
And I worked in differentcultures, you know, I worked in
Germany and Italy, a couple ofyears in Switzerland, now in
France, and what I see is thatthe approaches, specifically

(51:30):
when we deal with globalinternational teams we have more
than 14 nationalities in ourcompany and, just to give you a
feel, the approaches are quitedifferent.
But supporting, believing andhaving a clear objective is, for
me, the main thing how we getreally people contributing and

(51:52):
making them successful at theend.
So this is my philosophy.
So it means a lot on coaching,a lot on feedback, but with a
very clear frame.
Because agility, I was workingin innovation, I said in the
beginning.
Then you know, and many peopleinterpreted, in agility,
everyone can do what he or shewants to do.

(52:12):
This is not true.
So the frame and the directionand the objective need to be
clear, the purpose needs to beclear and then it's just about
empowering.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
That's great.
I appreciate you sharing thatadvice.
And the other thing I wanted toask you too, given there may be
a lot of misunderstanding abouttrain travel in Europe,
especially for North Americantravelers.
So if there's one thing thatyou keep coming up against all
the time about peoplemisunderstanding train travel in
Europe, what would it be andhow do you address that at Rail
Europe so that we hopefully wecan clear up a lot of things
here that either our listenersare going to now know or tell

(52:44):
someone else, so that you don'tget that question directly.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
No, I mean, first of all, we are very happy about
this.
Of course, specificallyinternational travelers see rail
europe, so our company as theoperator.
So and yes, we are not theoperator, we are the distributor
and we are the platform inbetween.
So this is maybe important foreveryone, specifically on the
b2b side, to understand what toexpect from us.

(53:09):
But more more seriously then,um, I guess rail travel in
europe it's really all abouteducation, because it's not only
the.
It's really all about educationbecause it's not only the US.
It's when you come from Asia,when you come from Africa,
specifically when you come fromAPEC, you have a complete
different understanding of whatrail travel means.
And of course, I'm not sayingthat in other regions trains are

(53:30):
not attractive.
Specifically, when you lookinto Asia, there are certain
very good examples, but what youcan do with trains on a very
small continent, like in Europe,this is not understood in
different ways.
So we really need to educatehow close and you mentioned it
before you can get, or how fastyou can get from Paris to London

(53:54):
, to Brussels, to Amsterdam, toFrankfurt.
This is like you would go inthe US from New York to Boston,
and this kind of education weneed to bring into our services,
but specifically need toeducate still the entire travel
community to get the rightmessages transferred.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
Very interesting.
All right, that's reallyfascinating and I think a good
call out that you're not theoperator and so if the train's
delayed, you know there's onlyso much we can help, but we
cannot solve Right, exactly yeah.
No important clarification.
Well, there's a couple lastquestions I had for you.
One I wanted to ask you aboutyour vision for the future and

(54:35):
where you see rail Europe and ifanything like rail travel as a
whole, in 2030.
I know there keeps being talkin the US about these high speed
trains.
I lived in LA for the last fewyears, so there was the big talk
about LA to San Francisco.
A lot of these initiatives justhaven't got off the ground.
But obviously you have aclearer view in Europe and
there's a lot more opportunityto embrace the infrastructure

(55:00):
and the build-out.
So, yeah, tell us how you seewhat the travel by rail looks
like five years from now inEurope.
Is it more high speed?
Is it more seamless technology?
What's the experience andwhat's your vision?

Speaker 1 (55:13):
I mean we can really make it very, very simple,
because the vision drives me isthat trains will lead short,
maybe even mid-haul travel.
It's quite easy and what we seenow in changing the model split
, for instance, and how Europewe discussed that before is

(55:35):
investing into this.
There's a big, big chance and,yes, we see more high speed we
see more sustainable ways totravel, and it's on seamless
systems.
Because what I do not believe in, then and maybe this is the
downside of this is that we willhave one completely

(55:55):
standardized rail system by 2030.
Let's take this example.
So it needs this kind ofintermediary to make it simple,
and this is on us, but thechance was never that big as it
is today.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
Interesting.
Well, and the other thing I'dlove to ask you as well, because
I'm sure you have many greattrain stories, but I would
really like to hear one of yourfavorite train travel stories,
if you wouldn't mind sharing onewith us, Bjorn.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
I mean, I have different ones, but usually, you
know, as you said before, Icommute between Switzerland and
Paris on a weekly basis, so I'ma heavy user.
I traveled more than 100,000kilometers on trains last year,
more than 100,000 kilometers andwhat I usually do is, when I
sit next to customers or next topassengers, actually I ask them

(56:45):
and I try to get into aconversation, of course, where
do they book their train tickets?
And last year it was a Koreanfamily actually traveling to
Paris and I asked them okay,where did you book your tickets?
And they answered they bookedit with Rail Europe.
And then, of course, we gotinto the conversation and we
ended up and they had a coupleof good advices and hints and so

(57:09):
on, and they said to me okay,when you know someone, please
pass this feedback to the team.
And of course, at the very end,I said who I am.
When you know someone, pleasepass this feedback to the team.
And, of course, at the very end, I said who I am.
But you know, having this kindof conversation, bringing people

(57:30):
together talking about thistime rail tickets, but you could
also talk about football oryour next holidays this is what
I love by sitting in trains,sitting in trains and more from
a from a train journeyperspective.
Um, actually I love to commuteto Paris because it's my, it's
my rolling office and if you, ifyou, if, if you, if you know
how to organize yourself, youcan really, really make the most
out of this time.
And, uh, I would not like tomiss those I don't know 10 hours

(57:52):
every weekend.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
No, that's great.
I appreciate you sharing thatand did you reveal to that
Korean family?
You are the CEO of Rail.

Speaker 1 (57:59):
Europe At the end?
Yes, at the end, yes, but it'smuch better to get feedback
before you mention this.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
Yeah, exactly, otherwise you're just going to
become the complaint department,right away.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
Yeah, exactly, no, that's great.
No-transcript.

(58:45):
Um.
Very, very happy to have thisdiscussion with you, dan.
Very, very interesting uhtopics we covered.
If someone wants to reach outto me, linkedin is the best
channel and let's be allambassadors for rail travel in
Europe.
But first of all, getting toEurope.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
Absolutely no.
I totally agree.
I'm a big fan of rail andthat's why I was thrilled to
have this conversation with you.
So, yeah, great to meet you andI definitely will be following
up with some suggestions forthat trip because I'm sure
you'll have.
I need to find a hidden gem onthe way to present about hidden
gems.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
So that would be, that would be perfect.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
But no, thank you, bjorn.
I would wanted to wish you well, the team well and every
success for 2025 and beyond.
Thanks so much for joining us.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
Thanks, I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
Thanks so much for joining us on the latest episode
of Travel Trends.
I hope you enjoyed this partone of rail travel focused on
rail Europe with Bjorn Bender.
Next week, we're going to bringyou the conversation with Frank
Marini, the CEO of Railbookers,so stay tuned for that and make
sure that you're subscribed onthe streaming platform of your
choice.
And remember we post clips andhighlights on all of our social

(59:50):
channels, which is YouTube,linkedin and Instagram, and then
we send out a monthly update ofall of our episodes so you can
register atTravelTrendsPodcastcom for not
only the latest summary of shows, but also our upcoming travels
as well.
And, as I mentioned at thebeginning, we've got a lot more
events coming up.
We're at the Aviation Festivalin May.
We in Miami, we're going to beat the ATTA conference in Denver

(01:00:14):
at the end of May and then theFocusrite conference in June,
and all those details are on ourwebsite and you can also get
100 euros off for FocusriteEurope by using the link, and
one of the commitments I've madeto them and to you is that
anyone who uses that will befeatured on our Travel Trends
podcast when I'm recording therelive in Barcelona in June.

(01:00:34):
So make sure that you check usout on the website, the social
channels, and look forward tohaving you join us on our
episode next week with FrankMarini from Railbookers.
Until then, safe travels.

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