Season 5 Finale: The Visionary Behind Viator

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
People saw sightseeing tours as being it
just wasn't a desirable category.
It was old-fashioned the way itoperated.
So a couple of things happened,though, that were really good
for us.
One was that, beginning inaround 2000, there was this
societal shift, a sort of ashift in the zeitgeist, away

(00:26):
from material possessions, andpeople began to realize that
experiences are actually moreimportant than possessions.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hello everyone and welcome to the season five
finale of Travel Trends.
This is your host, DanChristian, and on this final
episode we're going to bespeaking to Rod Cuthbert, the
founder of Viator.
I'm so excited to bring thisconversation to you, especially
as we just finished the InDestination series.
But also, rod lives inMelbourne, australia, where I
had the privilege to live for afew years when I was working

(00:55):
with Lonely Planet.
Certainly some of the happiesttimes of my life were spent in
Australia working at LonelyPlanet and getting to know the
team there.
Interestingly, at the end ofthe conversation I had with Rod,
it turns out he literally hangsout with the same crew that I
absolutely adore John Ryan,katie, faulkner and Gavin and
the team there.
They still go to pub quiznights together and I look

(01:16):
forward to hopefully joining youguys at some point again in the
near future.
But I really wanted to finishoff with Rod because he is such
a visionary founder in thisindustry.
He's also, as I tease him inour conversation, the Simon
Cowell of judges when it comesto the startup.
So I'm sure a lot of startupslisten to this.
As soon as they hear RodCuthbert's voice, they shiver in
fear because he speaks thehonest, open truth, which

(01:39):
sometimes is hard to hear butoftentimes makes these startups
better.
And I've actually had peoplethat have commented that I
really didn't like Rod becauseof what he said, but I actually
implemented it and it actuallyworked out for my business.
So this is where I wanted tobring Rod into the conversation,
and I do get into that with him, but you'll also see someone
that really set the stage forthe industry as we know it today

(02:02):
.
He's gone on to success with anumber of other ventures and
we'll talk a bit about that aswell.
But before we bring Rod on tothe final show of season five, I
just wanted to say a few quickthank yous.
First, all of our listeners,for your enthusiasm, engagement,
reviews and feedback over thecourse of this season.
I love when I get emails, danat traveltrendspodcastcom, about

(02:23):
episodes or plans that we havefor future guests or topics you
want to see us cover, especiallyas we are currently in
production for season six.
So feel free to keep thosecoming.
And I also just wanted toacknowledge our amazing sponsors
and partners that have madethis team and entire podcast
possible.
We certainly have been veryfortunate in the past two

(02:45):
seasons to have a growing listof sponsors, and this season we
had Propellec, of course, comingback, who's been with us since
season three.
We had Travel AI come back thisseason as well, and State 22
was three of our returningsponsors, but we also had Travel
Tech Flywire, colette FlightCenter and Protect Group, and we

(03:06):
also had our theme sponsors aswell.
So I just wanted to say aspecial thank you to all of
those sponsors.
I, of course, want to thank allof the amazing guests.
We've had 27 episodes.
We did nearly 31 when welaunched season four.
We are always planning to do 20episodes per season, but we end
up over-indexing because wehave so many amazing
conversations to bring you eachweek and sometimes we end up

(03:28):
putting out two or threeepisodes, and we've actually
came up with the idea of thespotlight episodes as the best
way to handle the fact thatwe've been over indexing on our
production.
And so, over the course of thenext couple of months until we
launch season six in September,we're actually going to be
launching several spotlightepisodes.
There's going to be adestination spotlight on

(03:48):
Columbia, there's going to bethe focus right event spotlight
from Europe, and there's goingto be a number of executive and
company spotlights as well, sobe sure to stay tuned for those
over the next couple of months.
And lastly, I just want toacknowledge the amazing team I
have the privilege to work withto produce travel trends.
You've got Zach, our producer.
Catherine, who does all of ourguesting.
Eugene, our new marketingassistant that recently joined

(04:09):
us.
Melanie, who's been with us nowfor over a year, that does all
of our sponsorships andpartnerships.
Melissa, who happens to alsodouble as my sister.
She does all of our socialmedia activity.
We're actually having a teamoffsite coming up to celebrate
season five and prepare forseason six.
If you have any othersuggestions for us as we go into
next season and, of course, ourAI summit in October, which

(04:30):
hopefully you've registered foras well, We'd love to hear from
you.
We'll be right back.
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That's protectgroup.
And now back to the show.
Now I want to bring you theconversation you've been waiting
for the season five finale withRod Cuthbert, the founder of
Viator.
Rod, welcome to Travel Trends.
Thank you so much for beinghere.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
Hey Dan, thank you so much for being here.
Hey Dan, thank you so much forinviting me.
It turns out that I'm in Tokyo,but Tokyo is a couple of hours,
you know, sort of, is it aheador behind of Melbourne?
It's behind Melbourne.
So I'm waking up here at 6.30in the morning and it's kind of
perfect, I've got time to talkto you.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
I appreciate making it workwhile you're traveling.
Of course, the last time we saweach other was at Focusrite in
Phoenix and you were awarded theLifetime Achievement Award, and
I've seen you there over theyears.
I'm incredibly impressed withwhat you've built in this
industry.
Obviously, you're known forViator, where everyone got a
good sense of your introduction.
For the few people out therethat may not know who you are,

(07:20):
they certainly do now.
But I would love to start withthe whole Rod Cuthbert backstory
, because that's what I don'tknow.
I mean, we don't know eachother that well, certainly on a
personal level.
I know everything you'veaccomplished professionally, but
tell us how you got into traveland tourism in the first place,
and then we'll get into Viator.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
Okay, well, I didn't take what many people would
consider to be a traditionalpath into business.
I dropped out of high school.
I'm a native of Tasmania, theisland state in Australia.
I moved to what islandersalways have a mainland I guess

(07:58):
in Hawaii it's California, etcetera, in Tasmania it's
Melbourne, sydney, et cetera.
So I moved to the mainland.
I was a table tennis coach for awhile, for the better part of a
year, made some money doingthat and then, just by virtue of
some connections that I had andthis is back in the age of

(08:21):
mainframe computers I got a jobas a computer operator.
And this is back in the age ofmainframe computers.
I got a job as a computeroperator, so you know big
air-conditioned room with araised floor and huge sort of
mainframe machines changingdisks and paper and line printer
and all that sort of stuff.
That was a lot of fun, paidreally well, worked night shifts
.
Eventually ended up at acompany that I guess went out of

(08:46):
business because they didn'tpick the PC trend and that was
Digital Equipment Corporation orDEC, who were just a major
player in the sale of minicomputers.
People probably heard of thePDP-11 or the VAX.
So I sort of got into a big UScorporation, got some training

(09:10):
here in the US, got into salesand was really having a great
career.
And then the PC came along inthe mid-'80s the IBM PC and the
Macintosh in the mid 80s the ibmpc and the macintosh.

(09:30):
And uh, my job was to find uhretail dealers who could sell
decks range of pcs.
And I couldn't find any.
Uh, there just wasn't.
You know, the the industry wasjust getting started at that
time.
So a colleague and I said let'sleave and start our own.
We'll become retailers, we'llopen a store on the high street,
st Kilda Road in Melbourne.
And we did that.

(09:51):
And it was Dan, I've got totell you.
All we had to do was turn up,turn the lights on and answer
the phone and we were off to theraces.
It was just so easy.
Everybody wanted a PC.
There was this thing calledLotus 1-2-3.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Yep, I remember that.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
Multi-plan Microsoft Word, the Mac with the mouse I
mean people, you know.
Just, it was exciting and itwas really easy to make money.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
So this is now coming from the guy that founded
Viator in 1995.
And so clearly you had apassion, interest in technology.
You saw this emergingopportunity.
Now, how did you make that leapfrom the world of being into
computers and hardware?
And I know Melbourne very well,I lived in Melbourne for a
number of years.
I worked at Lonely Planet, Iknow St Kilda Road and I know

(10:46):
I've got a good friend in common, ian Cumming, who's based in
Tasmania, and I love Tasmania,the place that so few people
traveling to Australia actuallyget to.
The Lonely Planet stat wasabout 3% of people get to
Tasmania and when I interviewedanother common friend of ours
who runs Tourism Tasmania, shewas telling me that it's still
the same stat, like it's likeliterally a small percentage.

(11:07):
So I think people listening tothis should go to Tasmania, they
should go to Australia, theyshould obviously experience
Melbourne and this is the worldthat you know so well.
But tell us, how did you makethis leap into the world of
essentially these day tours and,like you, created a whole new
category in this industry?
But yeah, so what was the leapinto tourism from a computer

(11:28):
shop on St Kilda Road?

Speaker 1 (11:32):
Right, there's a bit of serendipity involved there.
After the computer store wesold, we made a little bit of
money.
I started a software company,eventually sold that to a
company here in Japan and endedup starting a company with a
friend of mine in Sydney tobuild websites.
But we didn't have anyparticular idea of what sort of

(11:56):
websites we would build or whatsort of industry we would go
after.
We certainly didn't have a viewon travel and tourism.
But our first client was uhcontiki travel, uh and we.
We built a site for them andand they contacted their, their
sister company, trafalgar, whothen contacted their sister

(12:17):
company, insight, part of allpart of the travel corporation
out of bermuda, uh, really big,you know international, and they
just loved the work we weredoing for them.
And so the word spreadthroughout the industry in
Australia and eventuallyoverseas that here was a company
that was building websites forpeople and that was a very new

(12:38):
thing at that time.
But we were building websiteswith a pretty good knowledge of
how to do things for travelcompanies.
We had developed a databasethat was really good at
displaying travel product and wesort of spoke the same language
after a year or so as thepeople we were working with.

(13:01):
So we got to specialize reallyquickly.
The people we were working with.
So we got to specialize reallyquickly.
And it happened that we hadhired a woman who used to work
at Sabre, the global GDS.
At that time, travel agents werestill the core of the industry.
40,000 agency locations aroundthe world used Sabre to make

(13:24):
flight and hotel bookings andthey had a really good idea,
which is they wanted to easetheir way onto the web off of
what we call the green screen,if you remember that, dan.
They wanted to introduce theweb and they were going to do
that with a marketplace of tourand activity products, with a

(13:45):
marketplace of tour and activityproducts.
This is the first time thatwe'd sort of been exposed to the
experiences sector.
But that was fine.
You know, we had the technologysort of chops to do it.
So we got a contract with themand we built an e-commerce
solution to allow.
Essentially, you know, youwould go into a travel agency

(14:08):
and you say I'm going to be inRome, I'd like to book some
tours, and the agent would go onthe website, the Sable website,
find the tours, make a booking,e-commerce happens, et cetera,
et cetera.
So that was fine.
We built that and we had to havean official handover.
And one of my colleagues and Iwent to Dallas to do the

(14:31):
handover and it happened thatwhen we arrived there, in a sort
of surreal turn of events, thatSabre had decided to do a major
layoff.
So we get out of our car atlike 8.45 in the morning, walk
into the lobby and there aresecurity guards everywhere and
there are people with cardboardboxes and they're crying and

(14:56):
they're leaving the building forthe last time and we're in the
middle of all this.
We'd never seen this sort ofAmerican-style layoff, let alone
been in the lobby of a buildingwhile it was happening.
It was emotional and depressing, to be honest.
And we discovered that the groupthat we were working with

(15:17):
they'd been scattered to thewinds, they hadn't been fired,
they'd been moved to otherdivisions and, to cut a long
story short, sabre just didn'thave any need for the product we
had built for them.
They said to us look, great job, you keep it, do it yourselves.
And we said fine.

(15:38):
But by now we were talking toourselves, because Sabre weren't
in the conversation anymore.
We didn't believe in the travelagency model going forward.
We thought travel agents wouldbe disintermediated, which is a
word now that I think I haven'tsaid that word for a long time.
But I can tell you that in thelate 90s and early 2000s the

(16:00):
whole industry was talking aboutthe fact that go-betweens, like
travel agents, were not goingto be going between for much
longer.
They were going to getdisintermediated.
And that is in fact whathappened.
We could see that coming, so wesaid let's roll this product
out, let's sell tours andactivities, but let's do it for

(16:20):
consumers instead of travelagents.
So that's how we got started.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Well, what's really fascinating about that?
I spent nearly a decade at theTravel Corporation and I oversaw
Contiki as part of my role fora number of years, and so it's
interesting how points ofconnectivity.
The reason I actually onlyemphasize that is because
Contiki, of course, started by aNew Zealander.
It was started in London,focused on Europe, and it was a

(16:45):
a multi-day tour brand, and whatI found fascinating about that
rod is you were actually doingmulti-day even today via tour.
Uh, kluge, um, get your guy Imean get your guys just getting
into multi-day in 2025.
And, um, and this is pre launch.
So, yeah, I find that reallyfascinating that you actually
were cutting your teeth onbuilding websites and software

(17:06):
for a multi-day tour brand wayback then.
So then tell us how you decidedto create Viator.
What was the origin story?
Now, some of this I actuallyknow because I've seen you and I
know a bit of the backstory,but I want our listeners to know
it from the beginning.
So how did you actually come upwith the concept and create
this business and get thefunding and really get it off

(17:27):
the ground?

Speaker 1 (17:28):
Well, we already had a business and staff, software
developers on our team, and wethen had this product, this
e-commerce product, to selltours and activities that we
built for Sabre, and they saidwe don't need it.
So we decided to pivot frombeing a software development

(17:50):
company specializing in webdevelopment to an e-commerce
company, because there's noleverage in software development
.
You can only do as much as thenumber of software developers
you have on the team.
You can only do as much as thenumber of software developers
you have on the team.
You're not going to get richdoing that.
Whereas, you know, we had begunto see Expedia, travelocity, et

(18:11):
cetera, et cetera.
There was, you know you couldgrow a vast business in the
e-commerce space and we expectedthere would be strong demand
for that product if we could getit out there.
So we decided you know mycolleague's name was Peter Fox,
my co-founder, and the companywas called Fox Interactive Media

(18:35):
.
We thought that's not a goodname for an e-commerce brand, so
we landed on the name Viator,which is the Latin name for
traveler.
We're all familiar with theword aviator.
Take the A off and there youare.
That's what that means.
So that seemed like a good name.

(18:55):
It was available for, I think,$20 from whoever it was that
sold domains in those days.
It was really an easy pivot.
It was serendipity that Sabrepaid for this development and
then didn't need it, and it wasan easy decision for us.

(19:16):
We were able to quickly raise acouple of million dollars from
venture capitalists in Australiawho believed in the idea and
liked the idea of launching aglobal e-commerce business.
So it wasn't our idea, but wepicked it up really quickly and
ran with it.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
I still remember reading some of the articles as
you were growing this businessthe Carlyle group, who obviously
invested early and continuedthrough a few rounds and I was
reading those stories as yourbusiness was growing and
developing because clearly anumber of investors had
conviction on the category andquite quickly, as they realized
what you were onto, we'll beright back.

(19:55):
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(22:35):
So tell us a little bit abouthow it then it grew.
That's flywirecom slash traveltrends.
Your take on how you see theworld in 2025, because I value
your viewpoint, and I said thisto Rod just before we started
recording One of my favoritetimes seeing Rod speak is when
he does the judging for theFocusrite startups, because it
was so refreshing his take.

(22:56):
I know it was sometimescontroversial, but I certainly
found it really enjoyable in thecrowd because, as I said to Rod
, he was like the Simon Cowellof the judges.
And that's where I want to getinto some of your take on the
industry today, because I thinkyou've got a great sense of
where the industry is and whereit's headed.
But let's finish off on theViator story that clearly is
such a big part of your career,your business journey.

(23:18):
So tell us a little bit abouthow the business grew.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
And then, ultimately, you sold the business and trip
advisor acquired it and but yeah, tell us how it grew and you
got it to the point of uh, ofacquisition so we, uh, we were
able to attract uh investmentfrom, uh, the, the carlisle
group, which was a us venturefirm, that or private equity
firm with a venture arm, thatreally they did sort of big

(23:45):
petrochemical deals and stufflike that.
We didn't think that they werea logical investor.
But they had a new uh, a new umpartner in the san francisco
office and he was interested indoing some e-commerce deals and,
uh, he liked us and decided toback us.
I think the most interestingthing about the Viator story is

(24:08):
that and I'll be interested inyour view on this as well
multi-day tours were seen as youknow, a really you know a
valuable part of the industry.
But tours and activities to befrank, you know the two-hour
sightseeing tour you know in thelate 90s, the early 2000s, was
sort of viewed as déclassé, youknow sort of bogan to use the

(24:32):
Australian word a bit redneck.
You know you're walking aroundRome in a group of 15 people
following a lady who's holding aflag on top of an umbrella.
You sort of looked dumb andthere was a whole.
You know the majority of themarketplace didn't want to do

(24:52):
that.
People saw sightseeing tours asbeing kind of I don't know, it
just wasn't a desirable category.
It was old-fashioned the way itoperated.
So a couple of things happened,though, that were really good
for us.
One was that, beginning inaround 2000, there was this

(25:16):
societal shift, a sort of ashift in the zeitgeist away from
material possessions, the sortof he who dies with the most
toys wins sort of vibe thatexisted around Gordon, gekko and
Wall Street and that whole typeof thing.
The shine started to go offthat, and people began to

(25:41):
realize that experiences areactually more important than
possessions.
Seeing things and experiencingthem is more important than the
t-shirt that says I went to x orwhatever.
Um, and that was really in ourfavor.
The second thing was that wewere the first online group that

(26:08):
we gave a platform to touroperators, so somebody in Rome
could say I want to start up,and this actually did happen in
all the major European capitals.
That's where it really gotgoing going.
Young historians andarchaeologists and young
business people would gettogether and say let's do a

(26:34):
historical tour of Rome where wereally focus in on certain
aspects Maybe it's the art orthe architecture or the role of
the Catholic Church, or whateverit is and it'll be really
highly valuable and we'll have agreat guide and we'll price it
in a certain way, so we're notgoing after the low end of the
market.
We would get those tours outthere onto the market really
quickly, like we'd sign them upat a conference and two weeks

(26:55):
later they'd be on our site andwe'd be taking bookings.
That really it began this sortof snowball effect where
sightseeing tours became moreacceptable.
All of a sudden people in thetravel industry were doing
sightseeing tours.
They were saying you know, oh,I went to Rome and I did the Via

(27:18):
Tours, skipped the line tour ofthe Vatican, I didn't have to
wait in line for four hoursoutside, I paid extra and, wow,
the Sistine Chapel is amazing.
That's something that theywouldn't have done beforehand
because they would have had tofollow a lady with a flag on an
umbrella or wait outside forfour hours.
We turned unwittingly we didn'tknow we were doing this at the

(27:41):
time, but it was definitely thecase looking back that we turned
what was a category that waslooked down on by the rest of
the industry into actually thereason people were traveling.
They weren't going to Romebecause they wanted a cool hotel
room.
There are not a lot of coolhotel rooms in Rome.
They're all really small.

(28:01):
They're not going becausethey're looking forward to that
flight on United.
They were going to do thingsand that became clearer to the
industry as more and more reallyinteresting tours became
available online through Viator.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
Well, what I find fascinating just in this whole
journey and this is where youwere so far ahead of the curve,
rod I mean you sold the businessin 2014 for $200 million to
TripAdvisor and if we look atthe numbers today and this is
where something I actually didwant to call out as well,
because you've always been veryvocal and opinionated and that's
something I actually I reallyhave respected about you,
because there was quite a fewyears where, after TripAdvisor

(28:40):
had acquired Viator, andopinionated and that's something
I actually I really haverespected about you, because
there was quite a few yearswhere, after TripAdvisor had
acquired Viator, that theydidn't report the revenue
figures and it was sort of kindof hidden in the background and
you had actually called out thatthere's so much more they could
be doing with this brand.
They bought this business andthey could be growing it more
aggressively globally, and Ithink and I want to hear your

(29:02):
words on this but I certainly mysense there, rod, was that you
were realizing that there was abig opportunity being missed for
how aggressively they couldhave grown that business and
that brand at the time.
I do know, of course, there wasthat data breach issue that
happened afterwards, and Iremember speaking to Steve
Koffer shortly after and hementioned that.
You mentioned that they werestill digesting the acquisition,
and so it almost seemed like asif things kind of slowed down.

(29:25):
And then, all of a sudden, youhad these competitors that crept
up that get your guide andklook and Viator was started in
Australia, as you mentioned, theSydney and San Francisco office
.
The San Francisco office, ofcourse, was where a lot of your
executive team was, like Barry,and many of the colleagues that
we have in common were based outof that San Francisco office,
and so it really dominated theUS market but had a great

(29:45):
opportunity to dominate globally.
And I just wanted to share oneother stat with our listeners,
and then I want to give you afull opportunity to weigh in on
this.
Is that you know, having soldthe business at that time for
200 million, now here we are in2025.
And TripAdvisor is disclosingthe numbers very intentionally
about how much revenue Viatoractually drives and because it's

(30:09):
such a sizable portion of theirrevenue.
So we're now talking about $840million a year for Viator on
its own, with TripAdvisor beingabout $1.8 billion.
So literally all of a sudden,it's half of their business is
coming from Viator, and so thathas to be, to some extent, a
great kind of comeuppance foryou and now, but anyway.

(30:32):
So, rod, I'd love to hear yourview on everything I just shared
in terms of selling thebusiness, how things evolved
after that point, and then we'llget into some of the other
things you're working on,because, again, you've started,
you've you've continued toinnovate and work with really
fascinating, uh, startups, uh,but, yeah, I'd love to hear your
view on that, with whateveryou'd like to share about, you

(30:53):
know, selling the business,looking back, reflecting on it
and where things stand today.

Speaker 1 (30:58):
Well, uh, well, to start at the very end, I'm
incredibly proud of the factthat top-line revenue at Viator,
I think in 2024, was around $4billion.
That's a lot of tours andactivities.
I guess I'm really proud ofthat.
I think I've always been abeliever that all the boats rise

(31:20):
on the same tide.
I love Get your Guide and Kluk.
I just think they're both greatcompanies and there is
absolutely enough space in thismarketplace for all three of
those companies to prosper andcontinue to grow.
Just as an aside, I think it'sgoing to be really difficult for

(31:43):
those two companies to find anexit, given how much money
they've raised.
But that's a challenge foranother podcast, I guess.
The sale to TripAdvisor I hadleft the company by then, so
Barry Seidenberg was running thebusiness, but I was happy with
the sale.

(32:03):
Our investors had been in for along time and you know venture
capital funds they have.
You know the fund ends andtheir investors want to return,
so it made complete sense thatwe would sell.
It was, you know, life-changingfor me and certainly Carlisle
and our original investors inAustralia all did really well.

(32:24):
So everybody was happy and youknow I guess we, you know,
looking at the numbers now.
It would have been nice to tossanother $50 million in and keep
all that for ourselves, but thefact is that Trip have such
tremendous traffic that theycould divert.

(32:45):
They did get lost early on.
I believe and I suspect most ofthe Viator insiders who were
there at the time would sharethis view that Trip have this
sort of view of the world, thatthey're pretty good at travel
and we've bought your businessand now we'll take over.

(33:05):
We know what we're doing here.
I'm not sure that experienceand success in what is
essentially a media business,which is what Trip is,
translates into knowing how togrow an e-commerce business
focused on selling tours andactivities, and I think it did
lose its way for a while and atone point they were seriously

(33:28):
contemplating shuttering theViator brand and moving all of
the sales to TripAdvisorexperiences, and that would have
been really dumb.
But they managed to think theirway out of that situation and
they began to invest again.
Ben Drew took over as presidentand that was really a good time

(33:50):
for the company.
Ben realized that the Viatorbrand was really well-loved by
suppliers worldwide and therewas just so many consumers who
had had great experiences andwanted to continue to buy from
Viator.
So the company began to reallygrow under Ben's leadership, and

(34:15):
I think you know the writing'son the wall now.
It's just a tremendous,tremendous business that we're
all really proud of.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
Yeah, and you absolutely should be.
And it's interesting because,as you mentioned, a number of
those colleagues that workedclosely with you closely with
Barry left at that time andthere was an exodus of really
outstanding talent after theacquisition.
And then, as you rightly pointout, when Ben came into the
business, there was thisrenaissance and there was this
incredible runway for Viator.
That's led to the success thatthe business is in today and I

(34:45):
know they have new leadershipnow and things are continuing to
evolve.
But if there was one thing youcould go back and do differently
, or one thing that you lookback on, is there anything that
stands out to you?
I mean, you mentioned somethinginteresting there about chuck
another 50 million in and run itfor another 10 or 15 years.
Obviously, that's one scenario,but is there anything else that

(35:07):
you would have, I guess, donedifferently, rod, when you look
back now?
Or is it pretty clear inhindsight that all the right
decisions were made at the righttime, based on the information
available?

Speaker 1 (35:13):
I think the best answer to that is I probably
hung around for even a littlebit too long.
When we hired Barry Seidenberg,it was just so clear to me that
, you know, she had a StanfordMBA and I'm a high school
dropout, right.
And she said to me, you know, Isaid, god, you've got so many

(35:33):
more skills to be running thisbusiness.
And she said, yeah, but I neverwould have started it.
And that's a really interesting, interesting.
That was a really interestingcomment.
You know, there are a lot ofpeople who, uh, they, they're
just fantastic at running andscaling and understanding all
the levers that you've got topull and the dials you've got to

(35:55):
turn in an e-commerce business.
These businesses are really,really complex and it was beyond
me how to scale it by the timewe got to about 2006, 2007,.
I was out of my depth, to behonest, in terms of running the
whole business.
So Barry was there and that wasgreat, but, generally speaking,

(36:17):
only a small percentage ofthose people are also willing to
be a founder and take risk atan early level, at an early
stage.

Speaker 2 (36:27):
Yeah, that's a very insightful point and I think
just uh uh to dive into that abit more.
With regards to theentrepreneurial initiatives
you've taken on since then,which, uh uh, have been many, so
I've I've seen you wearing anumber of different hats, both
as a chairman, but also workingclosely with a lot of founders.
So, from your experience there,take us through what you

(36:51):
decided to focus on next.
Obviously, you had a bit oftime off.
You did well.
The Rome to Rio was more like2012.
I know Veltra came a little bitlater.
You have J-Ride as well, buttell us what you decided to
pursue after Viator.
What was your thinking and yourmentality then?
That sort of led you to thenumber of initiatives you've
taken on in the last 10 or 15years.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
Well, I actually had a dramatic failure Not so
dramatic, but I said to myself Ishould do something besides
travel.
This was a really dumb idea.
It's like you know.
I've since come to terms withthe fact that I have a very
narrow field of expertise andexperience and I really should

(37:31):
stick to that.
But I was always reallyinterested in media.
I was a news junkie and Iteamed up with a computer
scientist who had developed somesemantic analysis software and
the idea was that we were goingto ingest all the current news
stories and sort of divide themup into what sort of political

(37:54):
sentiment they were written fromand then present them so that
you could read about a storyfrom sort of a left-leaning
perspective, from aright-leaning perspective, and
sort of see it all on the onepage.
And so many people told us thisis just such a great idea.
And at the time Obama waspresident and he actually said

(38:16):
in a speech one day we shouldall take the opportunity to read
what the other guys are sayingabout this topic.
If you're a Wall Street Journalreader, read the New York Times
on it.
And if you're a Fox televisionwatcher, you know.
Et cetera, et cetera.
Well, it turns out that peoplejust want to read their own

(38:36):
thing right.
They just want to hear what'salready in their mind.
They want somebody else to echothat sentiment.
Generally speaking, peopledon't want to hear what's
already in their mind.
They want somebody else to echothat sentiment.
Generally speaking, peopledon't want to be challenged.
And that business lasted forabout six months and we did all
of our dough, unfortunately, andafter that I decided I should

(39:00):
just do travel in future.

Speaker 2 (39:04):
That was a nice humbling experience after an
epic success, right.
So you get back into travel.
You decide that that is goingto be where you're going to
continue to focus your time andyour energy.
How did Rome to Rio come about?
Take us a little bit throughthat business, because I was so
intrigued with this businesswhen it launched because all of
a sudden there was trip planning.

(39:26):
We were joking just before westarted to record about the
cemetery of trip planning tools,and Rome to Rio, even in the
face of a platform like GoogleMaps, really stood out in terms
of the technology, the userinterface, the functionality
interface, the functionality.
I still use Rome to Rio whenI'm trying to figure out.
I was just using it in Europerecently to try and figure out
the different options of gettingfrom.

(39:47):
I was in Nice and I had to goto Berlin and I was just looking
at the different options onRome to Rio.
But yeah, tell us a little bitabout that business, if you
wouldn't mind, Rod, and wherethat stands now.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
So I was living in California but I needed to go
back to Australia and through amutual friend I was introduced
to two former Microsoftengineers who had been working
in Redmond and had decided tolaunch a business and they were

(40:21):
natives of Melbourne and theyhad just moved back to Melbourne
.
So I was introduced to them.
We got on really well.
Immediately I moved back there,I met with them in person.
They had been trying to.
They were literally still inthe garage writing the code.
They just got a beta out, Ithink the week before I arrived

(40:43):
back.
I loved what they were doing.
It's very hard technology, thesort of journey planning
technology.
You know.
It's complex computer scienceand they had nailed it.
They were trying to raise moneyand not having any luck, and I

(41:06):
was able to do that in, I think,six weeks or something like
that.
It's a different set of skillsto sitting in front of a screen
and writing code and they werefailing at that, but they were
wildly successful at their corecompetency.
So it was a nice combination itwas.

(41:27):
You know, the Rome de Rio storyhas just been a terrific example
of how very, very goodtechnology plus a little bit of
luck and I think the luck withRome de Rio came in.
They chose a really great brandname.
They did a really good job ofthe UX design and people just

(41:53):
loved it.
And, interestingly, peopleinside the travel industry
really loved it because theyrealized how difficult it is to
do the sort of you know, todeliver the sort of results that
ron de rio delivers in lessthan a second.
Um, it's super fast and ittells you all of the different

(42:14):
ways to get from literally anyplace on the planet to any other
place.
And it was just a nicerinterface and not everybody
wants to use Google all the time.
It turns out People want theiralternatives.
The occurrence of sort ofword-of-mouth marketing that

(42:34):
Rome de Rio got was just out ofthis world.
I saw a list the other day ofthe top traffic websites in the
world.
I'm not sure who puts it out.
It's every month that comes out.
Bookingcom is right up therewith 550 million visits per
month, but in number 19 spotwith 50 million visits per month

(42:56):
is rome to rio.
It is.
It is a wildly popular.
It is a wildly popular website,which the really amazing thing
on that journey with Rome de Rioit's a site that tells you how
to get from A to B, how to getfrom Nice to Ancona, or from
Milan to Berlin or whatever,which can be complex.

(43:19):
You would think that we wouldmake money out of selling
transportation, selling tickets.
It turns out that Rondoriomakes most of its money out of
selling hotels, like everybodyelse in the industry.
That's where the money is.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
Oh, that's so interesting.
I guess that obviously was oneof the startups you got involved
in.
And where is Rondorio today?
Just so we can finish that one.
And I want to talk about Veltra, because that's obviously why
you're in in japan, because it'sinteresting, like when, when I
look at your, you know, I guessyour portfolio you have you know
the journey planning, uh j ride, of course, is a marketplace

(43:55):
for airport transfers.
Veltra, which I'm sure many ofour listeners know, but of
course it's Japan's leadingonline seller of tours and
activities and so you knowyou're very active in all of
these kind of similar adjacentspaces, which clearly you know
well and you understand it.
You know the investors, youknow the marketing.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
So, yeah, tell us a little bit of, I guess, how the
Rome to Rio story wraps up, ifyou will, as you're trying to do
all these other things, um, aswell well, um, you know it wraps
up from my point of view uh, wesold the business to the german
company omeo in 2019, 20, late2018, early 2019, uh, and it's

(44:42):
now, you know, a very importantpart of their portfolio of
businesses.
I mean, selling train ticketsin Europe is sort of a red ocean
.
There are some big playersdoing that, and what Rome de Rio
brings to the table there ishigh-volume traffic, so it's a

(45:02):
really valuable part of the Omeomix.
Veltra is interesting becauseI've known the company since its
earliest days.
They had approached Viatoraround, I think, 2000 and said
can we license your e-commercetech so that we don't have to

(45:22):
build it?
I wasn't so keen on that, but Isaid let's stay friends, let's
meet up at conferences andwhatever.
And we did.
And then when I becameindependent of Viator and they
didn't have any concerns aboutconfidentiality and that type of
thing, they invited me to jointheir board and I think that was

(45:47):
quite courageous.
I'm not sure how much you knowabout doing business in Japan,
but you know, because of sort ofculture and hierarchy, people
don't say no a lot here.
So if the CEO or somebodysenior in a company says we
should do this, probablyeverybody's going to go along

(46:09):
with that, whereas I sit inboard meetings at Veltra and
somebody says we should do thisand I say that's crazy, why
would we do that?
I laugh and they look at me andbut if I say no, it gives them
the license to say yes, I agreewith rod, so they're still

(46:29):
saying yes, which is what theywant to do, but they're saying
no really, uh, and it's workedout well, it's.
You know, I'm sort of just bybeing here they're, they're sort
of of in a better position tocompete with the Klux and KK
Days and other Asian companieswho actually they are Asian

(46:51):
companies but they operate likeWestern companies.
You know, they're very startupmethodology, they're very fast
moving, they're prepared to do,you know, a-b testing all over
the place experiment, you know,whereas Veltra has a very
Japanese culture and mindset andwe're slowly breaking that
apart and that's been kind offun.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
I can only imagine how those first few board
meetings went, and given that,I've seen you in action at
conferences.
So, yes, entering thatenvironment is probably a new
experience for everyone in theroom.
But so when we think about RodCuthbert today, in 2025,
obviously you're in Japan,you're working still with Veltro
, you're on their board, you'rethe chairperson of J-Ride.

(47:35):
Are those kind of your twoprimary focuses?
What is Rod Cuthbert working ontoday?
Is there anything else that I'mmissing from your portfolio?

Speaker 1 (47:46):
Well, I've invested in a number of online travel
companies.
I'm an investor in Magpiebecause I really do know a bit
about content management in theonline travel space, and Viator
created an extranet very earlyon so we didn't have to load all
the all of the uh, all thecontent into our system.

(48:10):
It was sort of a game changerfor us.
Uh, expedia saw that we'd donethat and they created an
extranet as well, and all of asudden there was all these
different extranets and thesuppliers were actually really
in a in a difficult situationthat they had to.
They have to load their contentall over the place, all around
the industry.
Uh and uh.

(48:32):
You know my friend christianwatts.
He said this makes no sense.
There should be a single sourceof truth, and I really believed
in that.
Um, so I'm an investor overthere and I think that's a you
know it's.
It's been tough through throughCOVID, but now people are
really coalescing around theidea that you know a smart,

(48:53):
single source of truth that'sgot a lot of AI functionality
for the languages and rewritingand review management etc.
It really makes sense.
So I think that, think that'sgoing to do really well.
I'm on the board of TourismTasmania with our friend Sarah.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
Yep indeed.

Speaker 1 (49:11):
And I guess, coming back to something that you
mentioned before not something Iget paid for, but you know I
did get a bit of a reputation.
You know you mentioned SimonCowell.
I guess that's probably a goodanalogy.
Um, I, I was a judge for anumber of years at the
innovation summit, at Focusrite,and I would get very frustrated

(49:34):
, with my colleagues sittingnext to me, that my fellow
judges, you know somebody wouldget up and pitch a business, a
travel planning business, forexample, that we'd seen 20 times
before and they've all gone outof business, and my fellow
judges would ask a questionabout the business model or
something else and say, yeah,that sounds really great.

(49:58):
And I knew that this guy wasgoing to be out of business.
And so I would say, look,you're a smart guy, but this
isn't going to work.
You should do something else.
You definitely shouldn't takeany money from your friends and
family because they're not goingto be your friends afterwards.
This is not going to work.
And, surprisingly, people likethat even the people that I said

(50:22):
it to afterwards would come upto me and say you know, thank
goodness, somebody you know gotme to go back and do some more
research.
So, by being a bit of anasshole, to be frank, because
it's not nice to be told that inpublic.
But you know, I felt somebody'sgot to do it to be told that in
public, but I felt somebody'sgot to do it.

(50:44):
So now, once or twice a month,every month for the last 10
years, I get somebody like TimHughes or Sue Hoon or somebody
will call up and say, look, Imet with this guy last week and
he's doing this startup and Ithink you should talk to him.

(51:04):
Which really means what they'resaying is I know this isn't
going to work, but I don't wantto tell him but you can tell him
so um once or twice, uh, where?
uh, I've said, you know, this isactually really a great idea.
Usually, the great ideas don'tmake it to me.

(51:25):
It's only the lousy ideas thatI get to see.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
That's funny Well one , certainly a great idea.
That has made it to you, and Iknow you've gotten involved as
guest OS with Jesse Fisher,which is, I guess, one of your
most recent investments, and Ithink that is definitely a
winner.
And I thought it was reallyinteresting, though, that when
you met Jesse and just fulldisclosure to our audience too
I'm an advisor to GuestOS and astrong believer in Jesse, the

(51:52):
travel technology he's beenbuilding, and it was just
interesting that Rod had asimilar feeling.
And when Rod met with Jesse andI spoke to Jesse, it was like
that I know how tough Rod can beon startups and how your
analysis, given the numberyou've looked at obviously it's
it's I respect your opinion is,I guess, what I'm coming to, and
clearly others do as well.

(52:13):
But I think it's funny thatsome people are looking for you
to be the ax man and be the oneto come in and just tell the
honest truth, and I think that Igenuinely think that's
refreshing.
I think it's needed.
I think it's needed and I thinkthe sooner someone gets on the
right path, ultimately, thebetter for them.
But I know you're probably veryselective about startups you
invest in, so I'm not trying toput it out there that you are

(52:35):
actively investing, becauseotherwise you're going to get
hit up after this with manyother startups trying to pitch
you.
But I just did want tohighlight that.
I actually do think that's oneof the great qualities you have
is being able to analyze, givefeedback, and I look forward to
seeing you continuing in thatcapacity, because I always
gravitated to watch you in thosesituations.

(52:55):
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So the thing I also want to talkto you about, rod, given that
you are in Japan at the momentand you've got this worldview

(56:09):
and you've got this incrediblebackground, a portfolio of
companies you've been workingwith is that I want to get your
view on where we are here in.
What are some of the thingsthat you are paying attention to
, and obviously AI is one ofthem.
I just say one last thing, too,because Christian is a common

(56:34):
friend of ours, so obviously I'ma huge fan of Christian as well
.
We just had dinner in Berlinand, beyond just being the
founder of Magpie, he is a majoradvocate for AI and a real
thought leader, and he's veryout there with his opinions on
LinkedIn.
I think a lot of people dofollow Christian.
He's been on our show.

(56:54):
So for those of you who arelistening to this that haven't
listened to Christian Watts onthe Travel Trends podcast, make
sure that you do, because it wasa fantastic conversation, one
of the best guests we'vedefinitely had on the show.
So let's finish our discussionon looking forward and AI being
one of those topics, rod.
So what are the big trends thatyou're paying attention to and

(57:15):
that would be of interest to ouraudience?

Speaker 1 (57:18):
Look, ai is just so important and is going to break
our industry apart, or at leastthe distribution part of the
industry.
I mean, hotels are still goingto be hotels and airlines are
still going to do their thing.
They're all going to becomemore efficient.
They'll be able to do thethings they do with less people

(57:38):
and hopefully become moreprofitable.
So I think there's that wholeimpact of AI.
But for the distribution sector, the retailers, the wholesalers
, the tech companies involved,it's just every day there's
something else that's coming upthat can be driven disrupted.

(58:00):
I mean search, for example.
We can already see the impactthat search is having and how
there are going to be reallyquickly.
There's going to be winners andlosers.
Um, at tourism tasmania, forexample, and and all dmos would
be thinking the same thing, theway, the way search is beginning
to operate.

(58:20):
We better really quickly makesure that all of our official,
the real content about ourdestination is ready for those
ai bots, because if we don't, uh, if we don't make our content
ready, somebody's going to stepin there with something else
that's going to divert people,lead them down the wrong path,

(58:43):
give them the wrong information,etc.
Etc.
You know all of the work thatwe've done in the past to make
sure that when people do asearch on Google about things to
do in Tasmania whatever that'snot going to be at the top of
the tree anymore.
Something else is going to bethere.
If we don't move quickly toensure that we're there, I don't

(59:07):
think we can have thisconversation today about
anything.
But ai uh, you know we've had inthe past things like blockchain
and dynamic packaging and justyou know, the whole
personalization thing's gone onfor so many years, you know, and
there were, there wereadvocates, for these
technologies were going tochange things, and none of them

(59:28):
did.
Vr, ar none of that's had anyimpact whatsoever.
That's been noticeable.
Ai is just so totally different.
If you are not trying to figureout how it's going to impact
your business, disrupt it, it'sgoing to allow your competitors

(59:49):
to leapfrog over your positionif they figure it out before you
do.
So, get your best people ontoit right away.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
So I'd like to ask you a very specific question on
this topic, because when wethink about AI and all the
applications for it, it's goingto change society, it's going to
change many industries andobviously it's going to
completely disrupt travel.
I completely agree with you.
We did our AI summit last year,we have our next one coming up
in September in Toronto, andobviously I would love you to be
there for it.
Rod and we can try and figurethat out another time, but I

(01:00:22):
know Christian will be there,and really what we're going to
be talking about is how AI isgoing to transform the travel
industry.
But the question I would like toask you on this topic is what
areas of the travel industry doyou think it's going to have the
most impact on first?
So in 2025, so if we rewind to2024, we saw chatbots and we saw

(01:00:42):
the rise of customer servicealternatives and efficiency
gains, and so there's so manydifferent ways this technology
can be applied.
Our conference was broken intomarketing, customer service
technology and leadership, andso what are the specific areas
that you're paying attention to?
Obviously, guestos ishospitality, AI, so what are the
areas that you think are goingto be the most likely to be

(01:01:04):
disrupted first, like in 25 and26, by this technology.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
I think that the potential we talked about
disintermediation right at thestart there Smart principles,
and by principles I mean, likethe hotel that I'm staying in,
which I booked throughbookingcom right, because I
didn't know about this hotel oran airline or a tour or whatever
you know most of thoseprinciples rely on third-party

(01:01:36):
distribution.
They rely on the channel.
Ai is going to disrupt that tothe point and one of the reasons
you rely on the channel is youjust don't have the
infrastructure to do thecustomer service associated with
a high volume of incominginquiries and traffic, whereas
the expediers and viators of theworld are really good at that.

(01:01:56):
That's their thing.
High volume e-commerce.
So you take you know, as ahotel or an airline or a tour
company, you take a largepercentage of your business from
the channel who make it reallyeasy and you've just got one
point of contact and one bill topay or whatever one e-commerce

(01:02:17):
transaction there.
And then you take a percentageand you say you know we love
that direct business, but youknow you can only do a certain
percentage of business directbecause there's just a whole lot
more interaction with thecustomer when you're taking the
business direct.
Now you introduce a product likeJesse Fisher's GuestOS or

(01:02:41):
products like that that can dothe customer service, that can
do the e-commerce at very highvolume and all of the bits
around it.
And all of a sudden you'resaying I actually want more of
that stuff.
That's through the channel thatI'm giving away 25 of.
I want more of that over herenow because now that I'm ai
enabled and I figured out thesearch thing and I'm at the top

(01:03:03):
of the you know, somebody'ssearching for, uh, four star
midtown hotel in neon bashi areaor whatever, and if they can
find me directly rather thanthrough bookingcom and I don't
have to pay bookingcom, okay, Iwant that because now I can do
that.
So I think that's.
That's where we're headed.
Um, typically the wholesalepart of the industry theators,

(01:03:26):
the resellers have figured out away to maintain their position,
but AI is a really powerfultool for suppliers, principals,
to reassert their dominance.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
What do you think?
Because, when you mentionedabout the idea of essentially
agentic AI and the opportunitywhere you have an AI as an
assistant operating on yourbehalf, there is absolutely the
potential for the dam to totallybreak for OTAs if you can have
a assistant shopping on yourbehalf and no longer are we

(01:04:03):
relying on users to go towebsites to look at search and
results.
And I saw a great example ofthis, Rod, with being able to
book an airline ticket one ofthe startups that works with
Lufthansa using verbal, which iswhat GuestOS does with voice,
in one minute.
You can book any airline flightin one minute just using your
voice, with three or fourquestions, and so this is going

(01:04:25):
to be a complete transformationthan searching for airlines and
looking at different meta searchplatforms.
And so, yeah, I think you'respot on and I'm keen to have you
back to discuss this in moredetail, Rod, because obviously
you have so much knowledge andwisdom on the subject and I
think you're you know, and it'sprescient to to have this

(01:04:47):
conversation about AI and whereit's headed.
So I need to be mindful, ofcourse, of time.
So I want to make sure that I'mrespectful of that, because I
know you have another meetingcoming up, so I will bring our
conversation to a close for now,but I certainly hope to have
you back on travel trends in thevery near future.
There's certainly a lot of morequestions I'd love to dive into
and talk about the future withyou a lot more, but I do want to

(01:05:09):
make sure that any of ourlisteners that want to connect
with you, Rod, or want to knowmore about some of the projects
that you have underway wherewould you direct them?

Speaker 1 (01:05:17):
Oh, they can find me on LinkedIn and I'd be happy to
hear from people.
Yeah, I want to spend 30 secondsmore just exploring that,
because it's a reallyinteresting point that when
people do a startup, you knowthey ask their partner or their
mom or their best friend orwhatever none of whom are in the

(01:05:39):
travel industry, right, andnone of whom have an opinion
that's really of any value onthat particular topic of you
know, does this travel startupof mine look interesting to you?
They ask all these people who Idescribe as being sort of under
their umbrella, and naturally,the feedback they get is it's
fantastic, I love it.
You know this is going to be so, so great and it's just like

(01:06:04):
it's.
It's so not valuable thatfeedback.
It leads them to believe, um,that what they're doing is is is
great, when in fact, it may bea total waste of time.
So I just really encouragepeople to not listen to your
best friend or your partner, butgo out to a conference like
focus right or arrival orwherever, and talk to hard-nosed

(01:06:28):
people like you and me beforethey invest a couple of years of
their life on doing things.

Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
So true, Well, and so many people in that exact
situation.
They try and keep it close totheir chest because they're so
afraid of someone coming acrosstheir idea that they think is so
special that no one's had itbefore.
And they need to keep it soclose to their chest that
they're actually not testdriving it, they're not getting
it in front of the people thatwould actually help them shape
it and actually figure out tomake it work.
Because, guess what?
It starts with an idea butreally no one's going to just

(01:06:59):
take your idea.
And this is not the Facebookstory.
The social network this is mostof these neat.
So that's a really good point,Rod.
The social network.

Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
This is right.
Most of these need, so that's areally good point, rod.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
Yeah, you're so right about that, the whole stealth
thing so amusing?
Exactly, no, but thank you forthis.
I really enjoyed our timetogether.
I certainly look forward toseeing you again in person in
the near future and I'm excitedto you know, certainly to keep
in touch and and yeah, but Ijust I can't thank you enough,
rod, for making the time for tobe on Travel Trends on this
episode.
I've really, really enjoyed ourconversation.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
Me too.
I've enjoyed it and lookforward to seeing you in person
Barcelona, los Angeles, whereverit is.

Speaker 2 (01:07:40):
Thanks so much for joining us on this season five
finale episode with Rod Cuthbert.
I hope you enjoyed thisconversation as well as all the
themes that we covered in seasonfive.
Thanks again to all of ouramazing sponsors for partnering
with us this season.
I just wanted to say one morethank you also to the amazing
guests that we had over thecourse of this season.
Certainly, it just continued toelevate, and the episodes that

(01:08:04):
we've just released, includingthe one with Joe Pine and Jake
Halport, was certainly one of myfavorite episodes we've ever
done, and I'm so excited tobring you many more amazing
conversations from captains ofindustry leading the future of
travel.
That is the theme for season sixof captains of industry, since
our focus is on having theconversations with the people

(01:08:25):
that are shaping the future ofthe travel industry and we're
really going to be focused onwhat the travel industry looks
like in 2026.
So make sure that you aresubscribed to be notified when
our new episodes go live inseason six and our spotlight
episodes over the next few weeks, and also make sure that you've
registered to join us for ourAI summit at the end of October.

(01:08:46):
Thank you again to the teamthat has made this all possible,
and thanks, ultimately, to allthe amazing listeners that have
engaged with Travel Trends overthis past year and really got to
know our show and reach out tome and the team.
Thank you so much for yourongoing support.
I love doing this and I can'twait to continue scaling our

(01:09:06):
production, interviewing moreguests, being at all these
events, and so I look forward tothat happening in the fall.
And in the meantime, feel freeto reach out, dan at travel
trends podcastcom.
But for those of you in thenorthern hemisphere, enjoy the
summer, have a great break, andwe'll look forward to seeing you
and speaking to you all againin September.

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