The Future of Immersive Art & Experience with Vince Kadlubek, Meow Wolf

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Step into the wonderfully weird world of Meow Wolf as founder Vince Kadlubek takes us behind the refrigerator door to reveal the journey from a dumpster-diving art collective to a multimillion-dollar immersive empire.

In this episode, Vince shares how a scrappy group of twenty-something artists in Santa Fe - working restaurant jobs and transforming recycled materials into fantastical realms - grew into one of the most talked-about immersive experiences in the world. A chance connection with Game of Thrones author George R.R. Martin secured their first permanent home in an abandoned bowling alley, setting the stage for Meow Wolf’s meteoric rise.

We explore how Meow Wolf taps into what modern travelers crave: physical spaces as surprising and addictive as the digital worlds we scroll through. From Omega Mart’s surreal grocery aisles in Las Vegas to exhibitions that captivate kids and grandparents alike, Vince explains how they create discovery, agency, and adventure for every visitor.

For anyone fascinated by the business of creativity, Vince also shares hard-won wisdom on prioritizing vision over logistics - a mindset that’s helped Meow Wolf evolve from a DIY art collective into an entertainment powerhouse with global ambitions.

Ready to find out why millions are stepping through refrigerators and into parallel worlds? This episode offers an inside look at the future of immersive experiences - and what they reveal about our deepest desire for wonder. For more information on Meow Wolf, please visit meowwolf.com.

👉 Listen to The Future of Immersive Art & Experience Now

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
You know, ultimately it comes down to exploration and
discovery, like that's whatit's all about, and people want
to explore and they want todiscover, and they want to do so
in a safe enough container, andso can you create an
environment, and the environmenthas to be an environment of the

(00:25):
unknown in order forexploration and discovery to be
possible.
So can you create an unknownenvironment where people can
safely be adventurous in thatway?

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Hello everyone and welcome back to Travel Trends.
This is your host, danChristian, and we are now in
episode two of season six, and Ijust wanted to start by saying
a huge thank you to everyonethat shared their feedback about
our opening episode with ChrisHemeter from Thayer Ventures.
It was a real honor and aprivilege to have him kick off
our Captains of Industry seriesand was really exciting to see

(00:57):
how much that resonated with somany of our listeners.
Now we're going to continue ourCaptains of Industry theme as
we launch into our InDestination series part two,
which is proudly sponsored byour friends at Pernod Ricard,
who share our passion forauthentic experiences and
helping shape the future ofimmersive travel.
For more about their incrediblework, I encourage you to check

(01:18):
out their brand homes atperno-ricardcom pernod-ricardcom
.
Now, some of you may rememberthat we had our In Destination
Experiences series that wrappedup season five, which was one of
our most popular series ever,so we decided to bring it back
and again partner with PernodRicard.
We had a number ofconversations that we were still
keen to have, and Vince was oneof those, but each of those

(01:41):
conversations were clearly veryimpactful and very beneficial
for many of our listeners andespecially as we go into
shoulder season for travel, wewanted to keep up the profile on
in-destination experiences.
Now, I actually saw Vincepresent for the very first time
at the Arrival Conference in LasVegas, so it was a real
privilege to be able to bringhim into this conversation.

(02:02):
But speaking of Arrival, their360 conference is coming up in
Washington September 30th toOctober 3rd.
I will be there hosting thebrand new multi-day track.
We've secured a special listenerdiscount, which you can find on
the homepage of our website, sobe sure to join us and if you
choose to book a ticket, makesure to let me know and I will
include you in our special eventspotlight from the Arrival

(02:25):
Conference in Washington.
You can also check out all theevents that we have coming up
this fall, and I'll be travelingextensively, so I look forward
to seeing many of you in personover the next couple of months.
Now let's bring in our firstguest for our In Destination
series, part two, vinceKatalubic, one of the founders
of Meow Wolf.
Vince, it's so great to haveyou on Travel Trends.
Thanks so much for joining us.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah, man, thanks for having me.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
I really appreciate it For sure, I'm so excited
because we did our InDestination series in Season 5.
We obviously are kicking offSeason 6 with the exact same
theme.
Because it was so popular, theteam of Pranav Rekhar kindly
sponsored the series again andyou were one of the key people
that we wanted to have part ofthe conversation.
So, as we kick off season sixand do this first theme on
in-destination experiences, Icouldn't think of anyone better

(03:09):
to have this conversation with.
Because I was telling Vincethis at the beginning of our
conversation is that I saw himgive the most amazing keynote at
the Arrival Conference a coupleof years ago.
I was so inspired.
We haven't actually met untiltoday, but I was so inspired I
went to the Omega Mart the nextday.
My we haven't actually metuntil today, but I was so
inspired I went to the OmegaMart the next day.
My wife went when she came inVegas.
I absolutely.
I've shared his TED Talk withmany other people.
Don't stop this and go listento it now, but definitely check

(03:31):
it out after this recording.
But, vince, tell us a littlebit about Meowl, because it is
such an amazing story, and thoseof you out there that don't
know Meowl, tell us about thisincredible origin story?
Yeah, so Tell us about thisincredible origin story.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Yeah, so I mean trying to describe Meow Wolf
first off is like, it's dynamic,it's layered.
You know, right now I'd saywhat we are, what we are most
defined by, is that we're anarts and entertainment
production company in Santa Fe,new Mexico, based in Santa Fe,
that produces these large scale,monumental, immersive

(04:07):
storytelling experience,experiences that are, that are
built by the hands of artists,and so we have five of them open
right now.
We have our our original one isSanta Fe, and then we went to
Vegas with Omega Mart, the onethat you saw, and then we went
to Denver, and then we have onein Dallas and Houston, and then

(04:31):
we're working right now on ourLos Angeles exhibition and then
our New York exhibition.
So, but where we started wascompletely different than where
we are today, in a bowling alley.

Speaker 3 (04:46):
Tell us about this community that came together of
creatives.
I think that's like 2006.
So this was well before thepandemic.
Yeah, because a lot of theseimmersive experiences were
almost kind of like fever insome of these companies like
Stranger Things, and we'll havethem on this series as well.
But I think what you guys didwas so ahead of its time and I
still am convinced that everycity needs a meow wolf and I
think disney will acquire youguys at some point.

(05:08):
I mean, you're the founder andchief business officer and I
think that.
But what you've done is sounique and it times so well with
social media.
But, yeah, tell us about thisreally cool community that
formed together, because I thinkthat was the part that I
couldn't.
I was like this is such a coolstory about living in the
suburbs and working these jobsand then like finding a way to
express yourself through art,and then it led to an, a
permanent installation in abowling alley.

(05:29):
But anyway, you please tell usyeah, happy to uh.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
2008 is when we started, um, we were all 20
somethings in santa fe, newmexico, um, you know, working
our restaurant jobs and fooddelivery jobs and hotel jobs,
like just trying to get by, andwe were all artists in some way,
like some of us were visualartists, some of us were, you

(05:56):
know, through parties, some ofus were performing, you know
kind of performance, theatricalartists.
And we, you know, we've decidedthat we wanted to kind of come
together as a collective and,you know, find a cultural voice
for ourself, maybe subculturalvoice for ourself, in the city

(06:19):
that we lived in.
And you know, we had gonearound, like to different
museums and galleries and othergroups to try to like engage,
but we didn't really fit thequality, like the
characteristics or qualitiesthat Santa Fe really held, as

(06:39):
you know, as its definable self.
So we had a hard time kind offinding our way and we finally
just said, like you know, youknow, screw this, we're just
going to open our own space.
We're going to open our own, um, uh, space where we could like
throw music shows, we couldthrow parties, we could host
lectures, we could just hang outand have sleepovers, um, and we

(07:00):
could make art, um, and sothat's that's what we did.
And you know, we all kind ofbound together, had about 13 of
us on that first, that firstmeeting back in 2008.
And, uh, we all agreed to pitcha hundred bucks a month to rent
a space, and, um, and then we,we needed a name.
So we needed a name.

(07:21):
That night, uh, cause we wantedto write a press press release
and like let people know that wewere starting something.
We wanted to be like, you know,big kids in that way, and so we
had a bunch of words in one hatand a bunch of words in another
hat and we started pulling outwords from both, from both the
hats, and Meow Wolf was the onethat we ended up voting on and
agreeing to, to, to callourselves and to call the space

(07:44):
that we were renting.
And, yeah, that was that waskind of how it started.
And we didn't have money, so wedidn't have money for materials,
we didn't have money for paint,we didn't have money for, like
you know, to buy wood oranything like that or, like you
know, sculpting medium, so weliterally just pulled materials
out of dumpsters.
The Salvation Army dumpster waslike one of our favorite

(08:06):
dumpsters, um, and they,salvation Army, would just let
us go and like, just you know,go, you know, go through their,
their, their materials, and wewould load up a truck and we
would take it back to our spaceand we'd start staple gunning
and nail gunning stuff to thewalls and then spray painting it
and like whatever Christmaslights and fabric and whatever
we could kind of get our handson, um to create what we now

(08:30):
call immersive art.
Um, you know and we weren't thefirst to do immersive art we
were inspired by folks like teamlab and Kasama and Terrell Um,
you know there's plenty of folkswho had come before us, but you
know we started doing it, um,from these recycled materials

(08:54):
and that evolved.
You know, we worked together asa group um revolving door of
people, hundreds of peoplecoming through to volunteer to
make stuff.
Like there was no rules orregulations as to who could be
part of meow wolf.
Like as long as you, as long asyou showed up and wanted to do
something, then you were part ofmeow wolf.
Basically, like that's how itworked.
And so we had hundreds ofpeople come through over the

(09:17):
years, um, and that happened forlike six or seven years where
we were making these immersiveexhibitions at larger and larger
scale and, you know, moreintegrity to them and more
storytelling to them and moretechnology to them, but still
from like an unofficial place,like we weren't a business, we

(09:38):
were just like a group of people.
And that all changed in 2014.
I was walking through thisbowling alley and I had no money
.
And I'm walking around with areal estate agent and it's
30,000 square foot bowling alleyit's much bigger than anything
we had like tried to buildinside of before, like this
would.
This is massive to us at thetime.
And, uh, the real estate agent,you know, was like what do you

(10:01):
think?
And I was like, dude, this isit Like we need to.
We need to get this space.
How do we, how do we go aboutgetting the space?
And he was like well, how muchmoney does Meow Wolf have to put
down as a down payment?
And I just I just laughed.
I was like, dude, we don't haveany money.
We're not like a business, youknow.
He's like well, how much moneyI have?
I'm sleeping on their couchright now, like I have no money.

(10:26):
And so then you know he was agood real estate agent.
He wouldn't take no for ananswer.
So he was like, well, who doyou know who has money?
And I, the first name that cameto mind for me was George R R
Martin, who, who I knew becausehe lives in Santa Fe and he
owned a movie theater that Iworked at, that I like had a $15

(10:46):
an hour job at.
And uh, I was like, well, Icould send an email to George
and see if George is interestedin this project.
And so I did.
And uh, yeah, george was like,let's talk.
And so I I pitched him on theidea and pitched him on the, the
project which is called theHouse of Eternal Return and it's

(11:08):
our first permanent exhibitionand still up today here in Santa
Fe.
And George just fell in lovewith the idea.
He was just, like you know, Iwas pressing all the right for
him, like game of Thrones hadjust reached sort of like you
know, peak velocity, season four.
And uh, yeah, he bought thebowling alley and he became our

(11:35):
landlord and that was sort ofthe first domino, like from
there I could, we could raisemoney.
People were like, oh, wow, thisis legit and raise money.
And we hired people and westarted working for 18 months to
get the first project open.
And um, the project opened in2016 and um, we had no idea how

(11:58):
it was gonna hit, but it was aviral success.
Um, it was just right place,right time.
Like, instagram had just sortof you know lot kind of taken
off, and social media was really.
It was all about sharing imageson social media and experiences

(12:18):
.
And um, and meow wolf juststruck a nerve.
And so, within the first 12months, we saw 500,000 people
through the door and our bankaccount had millions of dollars
in it.

Speaker 3 (12:37):
And, as I understand Vince, it was literally like $7
million in the first year.
Is that about right?
$500,000 and about $7 millionin revenue in year one?
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, it's staggering and so anincredible story with so much
serendipity, not to the branding, to the fact that you happen to
work at a theater, to be writerof Game of Thrones, to happen

(12:57):
to own and happen to live in thesame town One of the things
that really stood out to me fromyour presentation.
I learned many valuable insights, but one of the ones that
really stayed with me was doorto the refrigerator.
You just talked about how itwent viral with images that
people could share on socialchannels.
That would just have otherpeople going.

(13:30):
Oh my God, I need to experiencethis.
Like the stars definitelyaligned for you, but I'd love to
understand, I guess, how muchintentionality was there to that
.
I mean, clearly, you guys havebeen at this for almost 10 years
at that point.
Then you finally create thisinstallation.
Everyone already loves you, youhave a huge audience, but now
you do something that is likeyour first opus and the
travelers respond to it and it'slike a field of dreams moment

(13:52):
for you guys, like literally, uh, you built it and they came um,
but tell us a little bit aboutthat experience of designing it,
since you know you had thisvision.
So tell us a little bit moreabout the vision for the person.
Obviously, I know you can'tcan't give stuff away.
I've read a lot of articles ofpeople to go visit.
There's Easter eggs hidden inall of these places.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
But, yeah, tell us a little bit about the vision for
what you wanted to create andwhat you wanted to the artistic
meaning you wanted to share withyour visitors.
Yeah, you know, we wanted tocreate an environment of freedom
, and not just physiologicalfreedom Like I can move my body
anywhere, I can go anywhere Iwant, I can walk wherever I want
, I can sit wherever I want, Ican just like be in this space
but also psychological freedomwhere there was like no, you

(14:41):
know, your mind isn't tetheredto knowing as ferociously as
your mind is tethered to knowing.
In your everyday lives there'sa limitation to knowing and
having your environment soimmediately psychologically

(15:02):
defined and understandable.
No-transcript.

(15:30):
And we wanted to also subvertexpectations.
That was another veryintentional instinct of ours.
So you talked about the suburbanhouse and so for some of your
listeners, the context there isthat the first space you enter
into is a very realistic, likephotorealistic, like perfect
replica basically of a lived inVictorian home, and from there

(15:55):
there's then secret passagewaysthat take you into just like
totally kind of abstract,immersive spaces, various rooms
of art and sound and light andvideo and whatever, and so that
subversion, um, kind of puttingpeople in a place of of
knownness, like starting themoff in known, a known
environment, like the house I'vebeen in a house before, I know,

(16:17):
I know what a refrigerator is,I know what, uh, you know, and
then subverting that, it was areally powerful you know.
And then subverting that was areally powerful you know,
actually like kind ofpsychedelic experience where the
reality itself has just beenkind of dissolved and you've now
, you know, you now venturethrough the parameters of your
own mind into the rest of theexhibition and, um it, it became

(16:44):
a profound experience forpeople Like we.
We knew it would be fun and weknew it'd be novel and we knew
it'd be beautiful, but we didn'tknow that it would be like
transformative and so like thatwas kind of the big moment of
being like Whoa, like this islike changing people's lives,
and that's where you know, we,we realized we had hit something
and and that's where werealized we had hit something

(17:04):
and done something that wasbeyond just a fun attraction,
totally One.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
I think that's the part when you highlighted the
fact that you have agency andyou're self-directed in the
environment.
It's such a unique experienceover following a formulated path
that's been set up for you tohave a set experience at a theme
park or on a ride, and so it isa choose-your-own-ad, your own
adventure, which was definitelymy generation growing up and
some of my favorite books.
But also I grew up in thesuburbs and for me I felt a

(17:33):
kinship to your story and thecollective, because I grew up in
mississauga, which is thebiggest suburb outside of
toronto, and I had very muchthat almost like the background
of the Flintstones, like itrepeats every like 10 seconds.
Right, it's the same thing.
It's like it's bland, and it'sone of the things we didn't want
our kids to grow up in thesuburbs, because for me the
beginning was to go to the malland so I didn't love living in

(17:56):
the suburbs.
But I identify with being asuburban kid and so the fact
that you go on this journey,that is.
And so what I wanted tospecifically ask you is is
because you mentioned abouttiming, and obviously, yes, we
do know for sure timing is sucha critical, if not the most
important ingredient to asuccessful startup.
You look at companies likeViator who are on this series.
We had Rod Hufford, the founderof Viator, where he talked

(18:18):
about the fact that when helaunched out of the nineties the
site guys were shiftingshifting from he owes the most
toys wins to experiences thatpeople were realizing that
wasn't just about, and I'd loveto understand from your vantage
point.
Obviously there's things likeBurning man that are happening,
you know, where something iscreated and then taken away and
so, and clearly you're veryartistic.
So like what do you think?

(18:39):
When you saw those peoplecoming through in that first
year, what did you see in theireyes?
What did you think washappening?
That all of a sudden, you hadtapped into the zeitgeist of the
moment where you createdsomething so special that people
did.
So what do you think washappening in society or with
people at that point that youguys just really nailed it?

Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, I've thought a lot about this.
Of course, you know, forcontext, for the listeners, when
we opened the house of eternalreturn, I was the CEO at the
time, so I was leading thecharge then of like, where do we
go from here?
What's the secret sauce, like?
What's magical about this?
How do we replicate the magic?
Like?
What are the importantqualities?
You know all that, so I waslike deeply in this thought

(19:21):
process and process and it'spretty actually obvious.
So the internet happened and theinternet showed up on our
phones, and then the internetwent from showing up on our
phones to then being packagedinside of these social networks
and we were then scrolling.

(19:41):
Facebook and Instagram thosewere the big ones at the time,
and you know MySpace was aprecursor to this and you know
Snap had just shown up.
But basically, the internettrained people from 2008.
The mobile internet trainedpeople, from like 2008 until and

(20:04):
ongoing, to look for uniquecontent, to look for unique
experiences.
Like at a Pavlovian level, likea hundred plus times a day, we
will look for unique things thatwe've never seen before.
And and then when we put ourphones in our pocket and we go
out into the real world, there'snothing unique out there.

(20:27):
Like everything is copy paste,everything is predictable,
everything is known like anamusement park.
I've seen it a million timesfor decades, like it's not new.
If we were on our phones, wewould scroll right past the
amusement park Cause we've seenit before.
We would scroll right past theamusement park because we've
seen it before.

(20:47):
Right, so, like, so, meow wolfsort of became like this, this
location-based in real lifething that you can't scroll past
, like you have to go to becauseit's novel and it's triggering
the same sort of like noveltyresponse that we've trained
ourselves to look for.
Now, on on our you know, on thechoose your own adventure of

(21:08):
our digital lives, and so that's, um, you know, that's.
That's kind of like.
The base thesis is that you knowthe real world is so mundane
and predictable compared to whatwe experience in the digital
world, um, and so that's whythings like Nate, like when you
go out into nature, it's reallylike it's much more unknown,

(21:32):
it's much more novel.
Or when you travel to anothercountry with a different culture
, that's very unknown and yourmind is aware, like at a
different level of attention,because it's like having to
learn, it's having to exploreand discover and learn.
So, you know, ultimately itcomes down to exploration and

(21:52):
discovery, like that's.
That's what it's all about, andpeople want to explore and they
want to discover and they wantto do so in a safe, a safe
enough container, like mostpeople.
And so can you create anenvironment, and the environment

(22:13):
has to be an environment of theunknown in order for
exploration and discovery to bepossible.
So can you create an unknownenvironment where people can
safely be adventurous in thatway, where people can safely,
you know, be adventurous in thatway.
And you know, an art is actuallylike an amazing access point to

(22:34):
creating environments of theunknown, because art is an
original expression of thingsthat people have never seen
before, from the imagination, ina way, that then provides a
context of the unknown, wherewhere exploration and discovery
is possible.
So that's the, you know, that'skind of like the, the big aha,
I guess, from this experience islike, and then tying it back to
like what people are seekingthese days and and what what

(22:57):
really triggers their attention.
You know, we'll be right back.

Speaker 4 (23:16):
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Speaker 3 (25:19):
I want to understand the next phase of that journey,
of all of a sudden, you as ateam are looking at each other
and saying can we do this again?
Can we recreate this magic?
I'd love to hear that storyabout how you guys decided to
move on to the next projectbecause you haven't fallen on
your face yet.
I love that about you and theteam and that's why I think

(25:39):
you've probably been carefulwith the number you've rolled
out, but I think that's why I'mconvinced that every city needs
a Meow Wolf.
So tell us a little bit how youdecided to expand the concept
where you decided to move tonext and, yeah, how have you
guys expanded this?

Speaker 1 (25:53):
journey.
Sure, yeah, I mean.
So it's important to note thatMeow Wolf is a business, clearly
, and it's important to notethat Meow Wolf is a business,
clearly, and it's also anartistic entity.
It's a collective artisticentity made up of a lot of
different artists and creativesand they're both of these things

(26:14):
simultaneously.
So Meow Wolf is as much abusiness venture as it is an
ongoing art project or an artongoing kind of creative
expression.
And so that's an interestingthing about about, about us, is
that, like our trajectory isalso us moving through different

(26:35):
sort of eras, like an, like anartist would move through eras
of their own lives, of their ownexpression.
It's us moving through that tooand kind of learning what
interests us and how do we wantto express ourselves differently
.
And so every one of theexhibitions that we've opened
the five that we've opened sofar, each of them is completely

(26:55):
different.
They have similarcharacteristics but they're
different art, they're differentstories and they're different
environments and they're alsodifferent.
We've played with differenttypes of how one might engage
with the journey of a Meow Wolfexperience, wolf experience.

(27:24):
So for Vegas, for instance,there's a whole like story track
that you use your phone andpeople love it and it's like you
deep dive into figuring out thestory in a kind of more
gamified way.
Um, and we saw people respondto this incredibly well, like
people are, there's a certaingroup of people, uh, who love
this kind of component of it andyou don't have to do it that

(27:44):
way, like that's reallyimportant.
Going back to agency, like wewant to create layers so that
you can experience Meow Wolf,really, however you choose to
experience Meow Wolf, you canjust walk around, you can chill
out, you can, you can takepictures, you can.
You know, you can also go onthese like gamified, on these
gamified sort of quests of sorts.
So there's a whole evolution forMeow Wolf and our experiences,

(28:10):
and you'll see it a lot in ourLos Angeles exhibition and our
New York exhibition, whereyou're not just in an immersive
world that is sort of a staticworld.
You're in an immersive worldthat's active, that is aware of
you, that is responding to you,that has, you know, interactions

(28:35):
that are meant for you as theyou are the main character and
for you to be, you know, tointeract with the exhibition in
a deeper way.
Um, that also delivers onreward.
Like also basically says like,if you do X, y, z, you're going
to get this reward for doingthat Um, and so that's that's

(28:56):
where a lot of our our, ourevolution is, is moving towards.
And that takes technology.
That takes, um, you know, soundlight and video.
Uh, that takes like a show thatthe entire world to be aware of
who you are and where you areand what you've done, and be
able to respond accordingly.

(29:17):
So there's a lot of technologybehind it.
That is, um, you know, prettyprofound actually that that
we're leaning into more Um andand then hopefully, like even
for those people who show up whojust want to like they don't
want to do anything, they justwant to be in the world, the
world will be even more animatedand more active and more

(29:39):
dynamic for even those people,people, for even the watchers
and observers and, you know,chillaxers of the world, you
know so, um, so yeah, that'skind of like where our interests
are kind of moving towards.

Speaker 3 (29:52):
So fascinating, and the one thing I'm also keen to
understand too, as you talkabout omega mark in las vegas,
and I think that you know isprobably the venue that most of
our listeners probably wouldhave experienced, given what a
popular destination that Vegasis.
But the one thing I'm keen tounderstand with how it worked,
with that and then also thenewer projects, is that do you
have the vision for Omega Martfirst and then decide on Vegas,

(30:15):
or is the art installation alsoconnected to the community in
which it's going to be launched?
So that's my first question, asit relates to Omega Mart, and
then, just following on fromthat, how does that apply then
when you're thinking about LosAngeles and New York working
with partners?
So yes, is it the concept firstand then the location, or is it
a combination of the twotogether?

Speaker 1 (30:35):
It's very chicken and egg Like Omega Mart.
We actually did so.
Omega Mart's a fake grocerystore.
It's a fake grocery store.
It's a real grocery store.
I don't know if it's a fakegrocery store or a real grocery
store.
It's both at the same time.
It's both a fake and realgrocery store at the same time.
We built a grocery store andoperate a grocery store, but the
grocery store is an alternatereality grocery store filled
with products on the shelvesthat you can actually buy.

(30:55):
They're all really funny andlike the level of depth that was
created is pretty profound.
Um, and honestly, like I'm notjust blowing smoke like omega
mart is one of the best thingsto do in vegas, like hands down.

Speaker 3 (31:10):
uh, it should be on everybody's agree 100 agree yeah
, it's so unique and it's likeit's you know, it's so impactful
and I was going to say onething I'm just going to quickly
add there, because I didn'trealize this with my wife, like
so this is when I went, and thenmy wife went and I talked to
people that went and you kind ofpick up different things
because everyone's journey isunique, and then you're also did
you discover this secretpackage?
No way, I didn't know that thatwas there.
It's just like I didn't gobehind the t-shirts and then

(31:32):
realize there's a staircase, orI didn't realize that.
You know, I was like you couldspeaking to people.
It's like your first day on thejob and you need to go up for
the training first and then likeand then it's just so.
Anyway, there's all these thingsthat again, I don't want to get
too much away because I thinkit is best for people just to
walk in the less you know thebetter and just start shopping,
like it's a grocery store, asyou said, and enjoy that and

(31:52):
then start yeah, but anyway.
So, yeah, tell us a bit about.
Yeah, how did omega mart was?
Was the intention then forvegas, with that particular
inflation?

Speaker 1 (31:59):
yeah.
So we had done omega mart in2012 as an, as an art collective
, in a small little space insanta fe, like a small little,
like fake grocery store in santafe.
We'd done it once before andwhen you know, when we opened
the house of eternal return, itwas successful we knew we wanted
to go to other cities.
Vegas was not on the list to goto, at least right away,
because vegas, you know, we,we're, we're a group of people

(32:21):
in Santa Fe, new Mexico.
Like Vegas kind of scared usand also like, yeah, it was hard
for us to reconcile, like howwould we show up in Vegas?
Um, but we found a really greatpartner with area 15 and
Winston Fisher and um, and wejust, you know, kind of had to
say yes to the opportunitybecause it was so aligned.

(32:45):
And when we did, we kind of wentthrough and we're like, okay,
well, how do we show up in Vegasauthentically and in a way that
is responsive to the city, tothe culture?
And so, you know, it's soconsumerist, heavy, it's so like

(33:07):
buy, buy, buy, kind of like youknow, spend money, spend money,
spend money.
That the Omega Mart concept fitreally well.
It was like, all right, let'slet's do a kind of commentary on
consumerism and kind of thenmove people through this a
deeper, spiritual, burner, veryburner, influenced visionary

(33:46):
artwork, influenced space spaces, beyond that actually like
slows is meant to slow you down,is meant to like get you deeper
into the vibe of experience andmove you past the kind of like
dopamine hit of buying product.
And so we definitely designedthe project in response to Vegas

(34:07):
in a lot of ways, and we dothat in all of our cities.
So Los Angeles is very much aLos Angeles project and New York
is very much a New York project.
And part of how we do that toois we work with local artists.
So we make sure that we bringin a good percentage of local
artists to work on the shows,because that's how it becomes
authentic to the location.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
Totally.
Tell us a little about thejourney you go on, the timing it
takes, the involvement ofmultiple stakeholders and the
process of coming up with thiscreative concept that then
becomes something that you aregoing to build or pitch or bring
to life.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yeah, from beginning to end it's about a three and a
half year process to get one ofthese exhibitions developed and
opened.
It moves through a developmentprocess left to right that
starts off very creative andvery sort of free of parameter

(35:06):
and you know we all have to kindof step into a place of
anything's possible and, youknow, start to there's.
There's a lot of collaboration,obviously across different
expertise and we have to have alanguage of collaboration with
each other, like there has to beyes and and there has to be
trust first and there has to belike a sensibility to the energy

(35:31):
and momentum in the room.
You know Rick Rubin talks a lotabout this in his book.
It's like there's this sort ofmysterious creative energy that
you have to be aware of in acollaborative room and you can
feel it and you run with it andyou work with it, and so it

(35:52):
starts off at a very blue skylevel level and then, as it
works across the timeline ofdevelopment, it starts to get
into project delivery and detailoriented and logistics and
spreadsheets and punch lists andyou know it starts to get more
and more like that.

(36:12):
Luckily we've done five ofthese now, so we have a lot of
like learnings from the fivethat we've done, and we've had a
lot of people in the themedentertainment space you know,
disney and universal like folkswho are, you know, have lived
and breathed this type of likework, you know, come in and help
, you know, bring what they knowinto the process.

(36:35):
But meow is unique, so we alsohave like been bringing to them
the processes that we'vedeveloped over time and so, you
know, we're in a really goodplace right now where we can
move as a team through these,through these phases.
Um, and yeah, you know, like wehave to both consider.

(36:57):
We have to consider both likewhat makes us excited, what what
creates like a just, organic,passionate energy, because you
don't want to do anything thatdoesn't do that.
But then you have to kind oflike find the venn diagram of
where what makes what makes youfeel passionate also is going to
resonate with your audience,and so there is a considering of

(37:21):
the audience, you know, in avery authentic way, like we, we
love you, thank you for lovingus.
We want to, we want toentertain you, we want to give
you something that's going to beawesome and we also want to do
what's awesome for us.
So like we're always kind ofbalancing that too, you know, um
, staying true to ourselves andstaying original while also

(37:42):
providing something to a generalaudience that is kind of like
immediately fun and entertainingand enjoyable and worth their
time and money, you know.
So like it's a, it's aninteresting process and the
immersive industry is a reallyinteresting one, cause, like
there's a lot of high priced,lower quality things out there

(38:04):
now Like people, it's kind oflike a cash grab in a lot of
ways, and so the generalaudience has sort of grown a
little bit skeptical or maybetired of immersive, and so what
Meow Wolf is trying to do rightnow is, like we believe in
immersive, of course.
We believe in immersivestorytelling, immersive art, we
believe in, like, the future ofexperiences and we want to just

(38:28):
do it the right way and we wantto be premium and we want people
to say meow, we'll set adifferent level, like forget
what you know about immersive.
Like meow, we'll sell a wholedifferent level of of of what
you know about immersive.
Like a meow will sell a wholedifferent level of of of what
you know.
And I think we're achievingthat.
I think we're, I think we'regetting there with that.

Speaker 3 (38:48):
So I think you're there.
I mean, it's still out of thebox to your point about some of
these cookie cutter examples.
I mean, living in Toronto, nearNiagara Falls, like a mini
Vegas, and you have all of yourRipley's believe it or not type
exhibits and these very standardwhat you expect in a definitely
points of interest, upside downhouses and some of these things
that are just like, as youdescribed, in many ways a cash
grab.
What do you see overall therole of technology in the

(39:11):
immersive experience and haveyou, out of interest, considered
a truly just virtualexperiences?
I say that because I'm seeingGen AI startups now that are
doing clever things working withbig production firms that give
you the ability to create yourown South Park show.
It's like you love the show,you love the characters, create
your own.
I don't know that that's thepath for me at all, but I just
was very curious to know ifyou're committed to offline

(39:34):
interactive entertainment with atechnological component or if
you've considered going down thepath of virtual experiences.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
Yeah, it's a good question.
I would fundamentally say thatIRL, in real life physical
experiences, are the bedrock ofMeow Wolf and they're the
bedrock of our thesis, and Ithink that the thesis is even
more profound today with AI thanever before, because, with AI,

(40:02):
like you just said, these toolsare going to make it so that
anyone can create any digitalexperience that they want at any
time, and so what's going toend up happening is a total
flood of content.
It's just basic supply anddemand.
There's going to be a muchhigher supply than there is
demand in the digital space.
So, you know, the physicalspace will become even more

(40:26):
novel, because AI is going to behave a really hard time for a
while trying to build a physicalspace, and so it,
foundationally, the physicalspaces are like the.
They are the pillars of, of theMeow Wolf experience.
That's not to say, though, thatlike extensions of that and you

(40:48):
know, meaningful extensions notjust like satellites, not just
like these, like derivativeprojects that float out here, as
you know, but things that areactually meaningfully connected
to the exhibitions, to thephysical spaces.
You know, we're totally intothat.
We did a, we did a virtualreality mini golf game last year

(41:10):
that you know that was reallysuccessful.
That took one of our Meow Wolfworlds and converted it into a
virtual world where people couldplay mini golf inside of it and
like it's it's on a game calledwalkabout mini golf and it's a
really great game and so peoplelove that and that started to
tell us like, yeah, like MeowWolf's creative perspective and

(41:32):
experience, design perspectiveactually translates in um, in
virtual.
So right now we're exploringlike what?
What a television series looklike?
What would an animated serieslook like?
What's the graphic novel forthe?
We're exploring what a MeowWolf AR experience would look

(42:02):
like.
And so, yeah, I think all ofthese things are interesting
because they're all creativeexpressions and Meow Wolf is a
creative, is an artist, is acollective artist, and so
they're all different ways ofexpressing ourselves.
I think where there's going tobe an evolution for the consumer

(42:23):
or the audience is thatconnectivity is going to matter
and honoring an audiencemember's time in your universe
is going to matter.
People are going to want to berecognized for their

(42:45):
participation in the immersiveuniverse that you've created,
because otherwise you're just aghost in that universe, you're
just a passive observer of theuniverse.
People want to be recognizedfor their time in the universe,
and so that's the big thing thatwe're working on.

(43:05):
For example, when you go andride the Guardians of the Galaxy
ride Cosmic Rewind at Epcot,that ride has no idea how many
of the Guardians movies you'vewatched.
I could have spent hours andhours and hours and hours

(43:27):
watching Guardians movies overand over again and like reading
all the books and like being so,so immersed.
But then when I show up to thisride, it doesn't know, like,
how much time I've spent in theGuardians universe.
It doesn't honor me orrecognize me for that.
And that's the big piece thatwe're trying to like, trying to
evolve.

Speaker 4 (43:48):
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Speaker 3 (45:46):
What do you see, especially with media?
This is do you seeinternational travelers coming
to the us to experience meowable?
How much of your audience nowis international travelers.
They're so intrigued by thisbut all ultimately then choose
to come to la or new york, likeit's the reason that they're
coming, because I'm sure peoplechoose to go to megamart and
they go to vegas because, oh,megamart's there now, like, and

(46:09):
I can do other cool things, butit's um, yeah, tell us if you
wouldn't mind a bit of like aprofile of the customers how
much is american and how much isinternational, and do you have
plans for internationalexpansion?

Speaker 1 (46:19):
yeah.
So you know, right now it'swhat's interesting is like
visitorship to omega mart invegas, from a demographic
perspective, is very similar toto to visitorship to Vegas at
large.
So you know, probably like 10%of our visitors are are
international, um, and then alarge, a large percentage is

(46:41):
California, you know, and then asmaller percentage is the rest
of the country and a smallerpercentage is Las Vegas locals,
um, and so it's, and so it's abroad mix.
I would say.
Even more interesting, though,for Meow Wolf is that we appeal
to a very broad range of folks.
Like you can be 80 years oldand go inside of any of our Meow

(47:04):
Wolves and you can just enjoythe kind of spectacle and the
art and the detail and theunique experience of it all.
Or you can just enjoy the like,the kind of spectacle and the
art and the detail and theunique experience of it all.
And or you can be five yearsold and you can go in and just
be like immersed in theimagination and like see it as a
playground.
That agency that we talkedabout earlier really allows for

(47:25):
anyone to experience meow wolfat the level that they want to
experience it at and have anawesome time.
And so you know, of course,like you know, the kind of
millennial Gen Z family or maybeGen X millennial family is like

(47:50):
a really core demographic, like30 to 40 year olds who have
kids where, like you know, likeGen X hasn't really grown up,
you know, and millennialsdefinitely haven't grown up,
like we still want to go and dolike very youthful things and
very fun, exciting, adventurousthings and we want to do them

(48:11):
with our kids, and so that's areally amazing demographic
because you have multiplegenerations who are able to go
and experience somethingtogether and everybody has a
great time, no one'scompromising, like everyone's
having a great time and they canleave that space, they can
leave a Meow Wolf and they canall talk about it afterwards and

(48:34):
talk about their favorite partand talk about what was cool for
them.
And that's the neatest thing Ithink about what we've created.
It's this multi-generational,you know, kind of opportunity.
And yeah to your question about,like, are we planning on going
international?
I mean, I think so.
I think like it makes sense forus to start to explore, like,

(48:54):
how a Meow Wolf might show up inother other continents.
Um, you know, we don't haveanything concrete right now,
we're focused on Los Angeles andNew York, um, but yeah,
absolutely, I mean, I think, uh,we we have a lot of friends in
other countries that are likeyou guys should come here.
You know you would slay it and,of course, you know we would

(49:17):
love to do that.
Asia obviously has like a longhistory of Team Lab doing
phenomenal work.
London is a hotbed like isprobably like one of the
capitals in the world ofimmersive theater.
Of course, what's happening in,you know, saudi Arabia and the
Middle East with regards to likehow much they're investing in

(49:39):
immersive.
I personally love Australia andlike the art community in
Melbourne Like there's so much.
You know Singapore is like anamazing place for these crazy
immersive experiences Some of myfavorite that I've ever been to
.
You know.
Singapore is like an amazingplace for these crazy immersive
experiences some of my favoritethat I've ever been to, you know
.
So, yeah, yeah, they're, youknow, international would be an
interesting thing for us tostart to.

Speaker 3 (49:58):
You know, move towards totally the world needs
more meow wolf.
I'll just say that here and now, toronto would be a great
location for you, certainlyeurope.
I love australia as well, andthey need something more
interesting, like the big bananaor these giant fruit, because
they sort of got the wrongmessage for american tourism
that you sort of build somethingthat is somewhat abstract in

(50:19):
the middle of nowhere and peopledrive to it.
So I would way rather seepeople be immersed in a meow
wolf experience and so well just, I'm excited.

Speaker 1 (50:29):
Just a little bit of a caveat there.
Like, I agree, like I we wantto put me, I will wherever it
makes sense, and you know.
But the world needs more art,the world needs more creativity,
the world needs more, uh,unexpected things Like it's.
It's it's way too predictable,like, and people are ready to
have things out in the world,out in the real world, that are,

(50:51):
that, are, that are novel,beautiful, thought-provoking, uh
, weird, um, and art does this,like artists know how to do this
and so like, just to kind oflike shift it a little bit,
because it's not about meow wolftaking over the world, but it
is about moving the humanexperience into one of greater

(51:16):
imagination and, you know, moredynamic qualities, and I think
that, like, the artist is coreto the evolution of the human
experience.

Speaker 3 (51:28):
Yeah, that was a much better way to put it, for sure.
I mean, obviously my passionand interest in the outlook is
like what you do.
The world needs more of that,but exactly what you just
absolutely did is, and that youknow, certainly one of the
things is like the environmentsthat especially kids in the
suburbs have grown up in, solike, and the thing you'd speak
to about multi-generational,which is obviously a big theme,

(51:49):
with the travel as well, whichis how you're tapping into those
things that so much of ourlives has become homogenous Like
the houses are all the same,the plazas are all the same, and
what you just described isexactly, I think, what is
unexpected and it's refreshingand it's incredibly stimulating
for the mind when you link upwith the journey you've been on

(52:10):
so far.
What, to you, has been the mostrewarding moment since you
started Meowsa?

Speaker 1 (52:15):
The most rewarding moments are when we're in the
completed work, the exhibitions.
The most rewarding moments forme I should say I should just
speak for myself here like isbeing inside of the exhibitions
and observing joy.
Like observing other people'sjoy of the of the spaces and

(52:38):
they could be kids, they couldbe adults, they could be people
in their you know, their laterstages of life.
Seeing that joy, seeing sort oflike the kid inside of everyone
come out, is the best.
That's like it makes all of thework worth it.

Speaker 3 (53:00):
Given.
You're in your 40s now andobviously you started this in
your 20s, so you've got all thisperspective and wisdom.
If you were to go back and havethat conversation with yourself
in 2006, what advice would yougive yourself knowing?
What you know now about howthis journey would end up I
would have.

Speaker 1 (53:15):
I would have told myself to like honor the space
that meow wolf has found itselfin and to treat, treat it with
care, because it's a veryspecial thing.
That um is is sort of like ittakes, it takes a different,

(53:36):
takes a different level of umresponsibility and care.
Maybe Um, I didn't, I didn'tfully recognize it, Like I was
sort of so as CEO.
I was so like go, go, go, go,go, and inside of my own mind
and identity and like neverstopped to really understand

(53:59):
that I was like a um, I was, Iwas shepherding something that
was beyond me and shepherdingsomething beyond me that is
incredibly special, like and anddeserves the, the care
necessary, like the integrityand the care um and so, yeah,

(54:20):
that would be my advice to myyounger self like stop for a
moment and have like a deeperappreciation for the position of
um, the position responsibility.

Speaker 3 (54:32):
That's very cool and sounds like you know you're very
humble.
That's something that stood outto me, even on stage or seeing
you just in the room andspeaking to you now, like it's
like the success that you'revery clearly conscientious of
the brand's purpose, its meaningand keeping that, maintaining
that focus when it comes to youmentioned Rick Rubin, so I want
to question that In terms ofcreative inspiration for someone

(54:53):
like yourself, where do youdraw inspiration?
Clearly from a specific artist?
So Rick Rubin, of course, forour listeners, he's a famous
producer.
He's produced some of thebiggest albums in music and he
also wrote a fantastic bookcalled the Creative Act, which
actually bought for our producerof our podcast because he was

(55:14):
very creative and he's the onethat helped me bring this show
to life.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
And so, uh, where do you draw your inspiration from?
Uh, you know there's a lot, alot of places.
I would say that, fundamentally, like the dark rides of
Disneyland um were the firstinspiration for me prior to the
Caribbean's, probably like oneof the biggest influences of me
of my life, um, I also talk alot about Terrence McKenna,
though he's not an artist.
Terrence McKenna is aphilosopher and scientist, I

(55:36):
guess you would say, and a poetvery much so.
That was hugely inspirationalto me in my late teens.
These days I am really in lovewith like music as probably the
biggest inspiration.
It's an inspiration of, ofvibration, a vibe that is

(56:01):
probably the most immersive thatI, that I experienced is like
when I sit down and listen tolike music on a, on a, on a, you
know, and listen to music on asolid sound system, I can be in
a world that that musician hascreated.
And I love Joaquin Cornejo,who's an artist from South
America, another South Americanartist named El Buho.

(56:28):
I love this band that's beenaround for a while called Cora.
Anyway, yeah, there's a lot inthe kind of electronic music
realm that is inspirational tome.
What?

(56:49):
What's happening in immersive,immersive theater still strikes
a chord.
It's a hard nut to crack, butwhen you get immersive theater
right it's kind of the mostspecial thing that you've ever
experienced.
And so there's a group calledThird Rail that has created some

(57:10):
profoundly inspiring immersivetheater experiences.
Of course, punch Drunk, you know, and yeah, you know, it's just
like it's hard to.
It's hard to really nail, butonce you nail it it's like it
has completely taken over mysoul.
Yeah, oh.
And the City Museum I got it.
I got to call out City Museum.

(57:30):
Um, yeah, oh.
And the city museum I got it.
I gotta call out city museum.
City museum in st louis,forever, always sort of the
godfather of inspiration.

Speaker 3 (57:37):
Yeah, like city music okay, cool, all right, I've
never been, but I've got friendsthat live in st louis.
I'm gonna reach out to them atthis point.
Yeah, okay, I've got two lastquestions for you, one that I
have to ask because all of ourlisteners, you know, one of the
things I do recognize that Ihave the privilege to speak to
you and get this time together,so I'm always trying to be
conscientious of what ourlisteners would really like if

(57:58):
they have this privilege to havethis conversation with you.
What they'd like to ask but Iknow so many of our listeners
they're entrepreneurs or they'remaking their way up in the
travel industry, and that's abig focus for us is trying to
democratize access toinformation that can be
beneficial.
I always think of myself 20years ago riding my bike in a
lonely planet.
I was listening to podcasts,trying to apply these learnings
to my roles, listening to peoplethat you know had great

(58:19):
accomplishments, and so one ofthe things I would really like
to ask you is that, for thoseother creatives out there who
want to turn their passionprojects into a sustainable
business, what advice would yougive them?

Speaker 1 (58:31):
Well, you have to envision it first and envision
it fully.
A lot of times there's like aloose envisioning of what the
passion project, how the passionproject might be able to turn
into a business.
But you have to envision itfully, like and that includes

(58:54):
putting together profit and lossmodels and revenue models and
business plans.
And you know, like, you have tofigure out as part of the
vision, as part of the artwork,as part of the creative work,
you know, not separate from it.
As part of the creative work,you have to kind of like, start
to incorporate the vision of howthis thing is going to be
sustainable.
And, um, you, you, you can'tlet the how get in the way of

(59:22):
the what.
That's really important.
So oftentimes, pretty much allthe time, uh, the time, somebody
will have a what and they'llstart to go through the vision
process of it.
They'll be like, okay, so wecould do this and we could do
that.
But then immediately there'slike but how are we going to do

(59:43):
that?
Who's going to do it?
Like, how, I don't know how todo that, how, how am I ever
going to be able to do that?
Or like, oh god, this is goingto take millions of dollars,
like, how am I ever going to beable to do that?
Or like, oh God, this is goingto take millions of dollars.
Like, how am I ever going toget that money?
And we let the how and sort ofthe impossibility of the how or
the, the the illusion of theimpossibility of the how,

(01:00:03):
disrupt our vision process, andthen we never do it because we,
we don't allow ourselves tocontinue thinking through it.
And so you have to like trustthat you'll get to the how and
trust that the how will takecare of itself.
Like, as long as you have avision that's fully baked,
that's well understood, that canbe communicated to someone else

(01:00:23):
, that makes logical sense, thatexcites people, that excites
you.
If you have that well baked,then it, you know, you're
committed to it.
The how will happen.
Like the people will come, themoney will come in, investors
will come in.
Like you'll be on a journey andthe how will be a series of
failures and you, but you willeventually get there.

(01:00:44):
And so you know that's the.
You know people say like followyour dreams or never give up.
And that's a really basic wayof saying it.
I think, specifically, youcan't let the context of the
current moment and what you knowhow to do and what's possible

(01:01:05):
in the current context,compromise the possibilities of
the future.
You have to be open to thepossibilities of the future
being profoundly different thanthe possibilities that you might
feel in the moment.
So, um, yeah very insightful.

Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
Yeah well, thank you for sharing that.
That's uh very meaningful and Iknow that.
A number of things that stoodout to me there, I'm sure, and
the um, the what and the how.
Obviously, I think that's theum, focusing on the how over the
what.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
That's one of the like, so clearly you're still on
this journey and one otherpiece there is, like, which I
didn't talk about, but the also.
You can't, you can't let thewhat compromise the why.
So the foundation is the why,the foundation is you being so
passionately connected to doingsomething Like why am I doing

(01:02:00):
this?
I'm doing it because I lovethis and you have to be so
connected to that and you can'tlet yourself develop a what that
takes away from that why.
And so it's really.
It starts with the foundationof why, then what and then how,
almost in that sequential orderor in that stack.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
Um, so just wanted to make sure I added that piece,
because it's really important no, it's a great framework and I
love doing this podcast and I'veabsolutely loved this
conversation and this has beenso meaningful to me.
I just want to leave with onelast question, vince.
We've talked a lot about someof the future plans.
I'd just like to leave withyour vision for Meow Wolf,
whether it's 10 years from now,20 years from now, and if

(01:02:40):
there's any special projectsthat you would love to work on
in the future.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
Well, I mean I really want to do an amusement park or
a roller coaster, at least aroller coaster Like I'm a
coaster enthusiast and so youknow I definitely would love for
Meow Wolf to do like a fullscale roller coaster meets dark
ride, where we get to likereally lean into it fully as a

(01:03:08):
project.
So that's a dream of mine.

Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
I don't know if it's a dream of anyone else here at
the company, but it's a dream ofmine you might have to pull off
a solo mission just to be likerelease your platinum album on
your own and just go and do aroller coaster and then come
back to uh yeah yeah, possiblyso, I don't know like, but the
future for me album it's, youknow, 10, 15 years.

Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
We're in such, we're in such a wild time as for, like
, the entirety of humanity, like, I don't even know exactly what
experience looks like 15 yearsfrom now.
You know, all I know is,wherever the world is at with
regards to media, entertainment,storytelling, experience, I

(01:03:56):
hope that meow wolf is creatingbeautiful, lovely, magical and
and authentic works withinwhatever medium exists, you know

(01:04:18):
, or whatever convergence ofmediums exists, like.
I think that Meow Wolf willcontinue to stand similar to Dr
Seuss and similar to Jim Hensonand similar to Miyazaki and
similar to Walt himself Seussand similar to Jim Henson and
similar to Miyazaki and similarto Walt himself.
Like that, meow Wolf will standas a, as as a creative studio
that you can trust to bringlovely, beautiful experiences.

(01:04:41):
Very cool.

Speaker 3 (01:04:43):
And very well said.
So thank you so much for thosepins.
I'm obviously looking forwardto making sure that I get to all
the Meow Wolf experiences andgood luck with the projects in
New York and Los Angeles.
I certainly look forward tomaking sure that I get to all
the Meow Wolf experiences andgood luck with the projects in
New York and Los Angeles.
I certainly look forward toseeing you at some of the future
conferences and I want to makesure that all of our listeners
that have just got to meet Vincefor the first time go check out
his TED Talk it is incrediblyinspiring as well but also check

(01:05:06):
out Meow Wolf.
Learn more about what theseguys are doing and let it
inspire you in your life andhopefully you'll find some
additional purpose direction foryour business by stepping out
of your current world andstepping into one of the worlds
they've created.
So thank you for doingeverything you do and thank you
so much for making the time forthis.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
Absolutely.
Thanks for having me.
Thanks for all the kind words.
This was awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
Thanks so much for joining us on our latest episode
of Travel Trends.
I hope you enjoyed today'sconversation with Vince
Katalubic, one of the foundersof Meow Wolf.
For more information, you cancheck out meowwolfcom.
And I just wanted to say aspecial thanks again to our
in-destination sponsor, the teamover at Pernod Ricard.
For more information abouttheir brand homes, check out

(01:05:53):
perno-ricardcom.
Now our series continues nextweek with the VP of marketing
for Viator, laurel Graytricks.
She is a true captain ofindustry as well, and you'll
hear that for yourself in nextweek's conversation.
So make sure you are subscribedon the streaming platform of
your choice.
And don't forget, we do postclips and highlights on all our
social channels Instagram,linkedin and YouTube and we do
send out a monthly newsletter,which you can register for at

(01:06:15):
TravelTrendsPodcastcom.
Until next week, safe travels.