Uncharted Worlds: Perspective-Shifting Journeys with Crooked Compass

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Curiosity changes everything. That’s the thread running through our conversation with Crooked Compass founder and CEO Lisa Pagotto, whose frontier-travel philosophy favors depth over dazzle and local impact over checklists. In this second episode of our Emerging Multi-Day Tour Operators series, we explore how she designs perspective-shifting journeys in safe yet overlooked destinations — from Papua New Guinea’s highland festivals and WWII relics to Mongolia’s sweeping steppe — and why honesty about difficulty, logistics, and culture leads to more meaningful travel.

Lisa reveals the craft behind the brand: small-group tours capped at 12, a post-pandemic rise in private touring, and a rigorous duty of care that comes before any itinerary is built. For her, sustainability isn’t about box-ticking — it’s about keeping money in local communities and creating genuine cultural exchange. We also look at who’s booking these trips: often 55-plus, well-traveled, with a growing solo-female segment seeking connection, storytelling, and transformation.

We chart what’s next in frontier travel — from the Balkans and the Silk Road’s five Stans to North Africa’s unsung gems like Tunisia and Algeria. Lisa also shares how she evaluates post-conflict destinations such as Iraq or Syria through careful risk frameworks, and why transparent pre-trip education turns hesitation into confidence. Along the way, a remarkable field story from North Korea challenges perceptions and captures the true spirit of perspective-shifting travel.

Come for the inspiration, stay for the playbook — how to spot emerging destinations, build local partnerships, and choose journeys that make a difference. Learn more at crooked-compass.com.

👉 Listen to Uncharted Worlds: Perspective-Shifting Journeys with Crooked Compass Now

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:03):
You don't join the travel and tourism industry to
become a millionaire.
You join it for passion.
And for anybody who has beensuccessful in their own
business, you will know thatpassion is what makes you
succeed.
It's what drives you and it whatit's what makes things happen,
and um that is what makes yousuccessful.

SPEAKER_02 (00:24):
Hello everyone and welcome back to Travel Trends.
This is your host, DanChristian.
And today we're going tocontinue our deep dive into the
world of emerging tour operatorsby speaking to Lisa Pagad, who
is the founder and CEO ofCrooked Compass.
She's based in Sydney, and she'shad this company for over 10
years and has built a reallyunique business that I'm very
keen for our global listeners tolearn more about.

(00:47):
Last week you heard from Nabila,who started A Dose of Travel.
More recently, a youngentrepreneur.
And next week you're going tohear from Will Cannes, who runs
active England tours to roundout our global perspective.
And this series is brought to usin partnership with our friends
over at Tor Seta, who arefocused on building out the
all-in-one platform for groupand multi-day tour operators and

(01:10):
giving travelers a great bookingexperience and enabling tour
operators to automate theiroperations.
They are all about powering themodern multi-day tour companies.
You can learn more about them atTorSeta.com.
Thanks again to Alex and theteam for sponsoring this series
and enabling us to have thetypes of conversations that I
personally are very interestedin, but also I'm very bullish on

(01:32):
with the growth potential forthese multiday tour brands.
So today you're going to hearfrom Lisa Pagat.
And don't forget, we do postclips and highlights on our
social channels.
So you can hear more from Lisaif you check out LinkedIn,
Instagram, and YouTube at TravelTrends Podcast.
And we do put out a monthlynewsletter that you can sign up
for at Traveltrendspodcast.com.

(01:53):
Now let's continue our emergingday tour series and bring in
Lisa Pagat, the founder and CEOof Crooked Compass.
Thank you for joining us, Lisa.

SPEAKER_00 (02:02):
Yes, thank you so much, Dan.
An absolute pleasure to be hereas well.

SPEAKER_02 (02:04):
Well, I'm so keen to learn more about Crooked
Compass, and I'm excited forthis conversation because we've
not met, we don't know eachother, we've got probably got
lots of people in common.
And of course, you're in one ofthe most beautiful parts of the
world where I would love I wouldrather spend half of my time,
which is Australia.
So tell everyone, if youwouldn't mind, where you're uh
where you're based.

SPEAKER_00 (02:21):
Yes, so I'm on the Central Coast, which is an hour
north of Sydney in New SouthWales, and I have to say we are
in the middle of summer, and itis just beautiful over here.
It is the perfect time that youshould be here.

SPEAKER_02 (02:32):
Yes, it's uh my ideal.
I spent a few years living inAustralia and I was working with
Lonely Planet, and I've spent alot of time there in the last
several years, and I loveAustralia, and I definitely
could divide my time betweenCanada and Australia, and I
think that is the future plan.
But let's let's talk about youand let's talk about Crooked
Compass.
So tell everyone, just to start,what Crooked Compass is.
And of course, as we're havingthis conversation, people can
check out crooked-compass.com tolearn more information.

(02:55):
But uh tell us a little bitabout the brand from your point
of view.

SPEAKER_00 (02:59):
Sure.
So we are a tour operator and wereally focus on those
lesser-known destinations.
For us, we love, I guess, whatyou could technically classify
as frontier travel.
So places that haven't reallybeen too touched by tourism,
places that are still verytraditional, very untouched, and
they're just so ripe for thatperson who has been everywhere

(03:21):
looking for that what's new andwhat's next.
So that's really what we focuson.
We do it in two ways.
We have our small group tours,which are a maximum of 12 people
with scheduled departures.
And then we also do privatetouring in any of our
destinations that we do thesmall group tours for those
people who, you know, don'ttravel in a small group, it's
not quite their thing.
Um, but they're they're lookingfor that flexibility and that

(03:42):
exclusivity and and that uniqueelement of private touring.

SPEAKER_02 (03:45):
Yeah, it makes sense with your magazine called
Uncharted as well.
So that certainly fits with thebrand.
Um but tell us a little bitabout how you created this
brand, how long ago you actuallyestablished a brand, and what
inspired you to create andlaunch Crooked Compass.

SPEAKER_00 (03:57):
Sure.
So we turned 10 this year.
So we're we're 10 years old,which is incredible and uh a
very, a very proud moment forme.
Um but I do have to say itwasn't something that was
actually on the radar to go outand start my own business.
Uh, I've been in the travelindustry for 23 years now, and
uh at the beginning of mycareer, I, you know, I knew that
this was the industry for me,but I just couldn't quite find

(04:19):
my fit.
And I worked through differentroles.
I started off as a traveladvisor and then moved behind
the scenes into the wholesaleand tour operator space, and I
was like, oh yeah, this this isa bit more me.
And then combined with, youknow, when you're in your early
20s, you go and you take a yearoff, and whilst most people go
and backpack through Europe, uh,I did mine a little bit
differently.

(04:39):
I didn't want to do whateverybody else did.
And so my first country that Iwent to was Tunisia.
Uh and I just loved it.
It was the first time that I hadbeen somewhere that was not
Western.
It was the first time I'd heardcall to prayer, and I was just
so fascinated and I thought thisis what I'm gonna do for my for
my year off.
And so instead of drinking myway through Germany and France

(05:02):
with everybody else that was 21,I went through Tunisia and India
and Morocco and places thatweren't normal for a
21-year-old.
And when I came back into thetravel industry, I I knew I had
to find something that connectedwith that passion, and I moved
into the space of adventuretravel.
Uh, I had a couple of yearsworking in that space in various
roles through sales marketingand product development, and uh

(05:26):
was then recruited to start anew touring brand for another
company.
And after doing that for about18 months, I had a bit of a
light bulb moment of I have justspent almost two years building
an entire brand and product forsomebody else.
Why aren't I doing this myselfin my style?
There wasn't anybody in theAustralian market who was doing

(05:48):
travel the way that I personallytraveled.
And I figured if this is how Itravel, surely, surely there's
other people out there who wantto travel like this as well.

SPEAKER_02 (05:57):
That's fascinating.
And tell us the name itself, thebranding, because I uh, you
know, clearly you're a maverickin the travel industry, and I
obviously am intrigued for thisconversation for many reasons.
Obviously, having a strongfemale founder leading a
successful global business likethis, but also you have traveled
extensively uh globally, as youwere just highlighting, to
places like Yemen and to NorthKorea or even Palestine, and I

(06:18):
guess recently Algeria.
So, like some of the placesyou've been to.
So tell us about the crookedcumbers branding.
Uh, how did you come up withthat name?
And I guess what does it mean toyou?

SPEAKER_00 (06:26):
Yeah, so I was I was looking for words that said off
the beaten track without beingcliche.
And I had a list, I still havethe original list, it's still
saved in my phone of all thedifferent variations that I came
up with.
And I uh sent them all to myfamily and closest friends and
said, which one do you guysthink?
Let's do a vote.
Choose the one that you feelsays crooked uh that says off
the beaten track without itbeing cliched.

(06:48):
And crooked compass was by farthe winner.
So that was the basis of it.
And um yeah, it's still very,very true to the core of what we
do today.

SPEAKER_02 (06:57):
That's great.
And then is your primary sourcemarket Australia?
I know you're based there.
How much of your existingcustomer base are in Australia
and how many do you pick up fromother countries as well?

SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Yeah, so being an Australian-based business, this
is where our main marketingactivities are focused.
So we are veryAustralian-centric in terms of
passenger nationalities.
We do get uh, I would say 5% ofour business comes from
international markets, andthat's a combination of the US
and UK predominantly, with alittle bit of, you know,
Singapore expats and those sortsof people as well.

SPEAKER_02 (07:27):
And then you mentioned obviously the two
different kind of trip stylesand the small groups being one
of them.
And when I was preparing for acall, I was looking through all
the destinations that you haveon your website, which is quite
impressive.
And I guess what I'd love toknow is which are kind of your
kind of your big threedestinations that you tend to
send most of those Australiantravelers to.

SPEAKER_00 (07:44):
Yeah, sure.
So position one and two seem tojump between each other, um, and
that is Mongolia and Papua NewGuinea.
They're our two largest by far.
Uh, and third, we it hasn'tbounced back yet because the
border is still not opened withNorth Korea.
So at the moment, Turkey andIndia are sort of sitting in
those, in that, you know, third,jostling for third.

(08:05):
Uh, but yeah, that the secondthat that North Korean border
reopens, the wait list that wehave, I'm it it could even shoot
up to number one.
Uh, it's yeah, it's veryexciting for when that
eventually comes back into ourportfolio.

SPEAKER_02 (08:18):
Well, I mean I'm keen to ask you about Papua New
Guinea.
I know you've just come back uhfrom there, but also when I
lived in Australia, clearly it'suh the proximity is very close,
and it's a very intriguingdestination.
I read the book uh Guns, Germs,and Steel, um, which is one of
my favorite uh long before Idiscovered Sapiens by Yuval Noah
Harari, of course, he wasactually inspired um uh to write

(08:39):
that based on Guns, Germs, andSteel.
And the whole basis of that bookstarts off with Jared Diamond uh
traveling to Papua New Guineaand the locals trying to
understand why white people haveall this cargo as he referred to
it.
Like, why do you come with allthis stuff?
And so I've always beenintrigued to travel to Papua New
Guinea.
And uh so tell us a little bit.
When again, when I was lookingat your website, I could see
that you had, you know, four orfive-day itineraries, uh

(09:01):
week-long itineraries as well.
But uh take our listenersthrough like what a crooked
compass experience is like inPapua New Guinea.

SPEAKER_00 (09:09):
Yes, it is definitely not for everybody.
I will frame that right at thebeginning.
Um, however, for those peoplewho are that curious, very
open-minded, very flexible typeof traveler, it is unlike
anything, anything else on theplanet.
And as you say, yes, it isliterally in our backyard, you
know, off the coast ofAustralia.
If you fly from Cairns, it'sless than an hour to get to Port

(09:32):
Moresby.
Uh, in terms of the experience,it really depends on which part
of the country you go to.
And whilst the country is quitesmall, it's got 23 22 different
provinces, and every singleprovince is so completely
contrasting.
So you can have, you know, areally gentle entry level into
Papua New Guinea for thosepeople who are fascinated in
World War II history, um, loveseeing that sort of you know,

(09:53):
Japanese relics doing coolthings like going through
underground tunnels and um thatwere also underground hospitals,
which are amazing, through tomoving more into your Highlands
area, which is where you get theimpressive hairdressers and the
festivals with the paint and thecolours and the sing sings,
which is their, you know,traditional dancing and beating
their kundu drums, and that'sgenerally what most people think

(10:15):
of when they think of, you know,visually Papua New Guinea and
tourism.
And then if you want your realhardcore um, you know, skin
scarring initiation ceremonies,you go to the C peak.
Um, and every every province isfor a different style of
traveler, but it's certainly nota first-timer's destination, and
just the the rawness of it andjust how untouched and

(10:37):
technically still primitive itis, is what the real draw card
is.

SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
Fascinating.
And I like this concept of umtruly off the beaten path.
I mean, I when I was living inAustralia, I worked at Lonely
Planet.
Of course, that's part of thebrand identity.
And it is very difficult,especially in today's modern
world, to be able to truly getoff the beaten path, and so many
paths are well worn.
And I guess that's one of thethings I'm keen to understand
because as you've built outCrooked Compass, you know, you

(11:02):
clearly have been able to createa competitive advantage and
you've gotten traction in themarketplace, certainly in
Australia and likely you're uhhave international plans, which
we'll get into.
But how did you go aboutcreating these kind of truly
immersive itineraries?
Everyone used immersive now, butI mean your those experiences uh
uh would be life-changing, wouldbe transformative to be able to

(11:23):
go to a place like that and umexperience these local tribes.
And so how did you decide thatto create these types of
itineraries?
And how do you actually go aboutuh is is it actually part of
your uh expertise that youactually craft these itineraries
yourself?

SPEAKER_00 (11:37):
Yeah, it is, and that that's my favorite part of
my role.
So when we started, we onlystarted with six small group
tours, and they were all basedoff things that I had personally
done.
Uh, one of the biggest thingswith what we do and why I
believe it's been so successfulis because we walk the walk.
Um you can't you cannot sellthis style of travel without
having done it and having thatfirst hand experience.

(11:58):
You know, that the questions,the managing expectations ahead
of a trip or ahead of anyoneeven committing to wanting to do
a trip, it's it's not somethingthat you can learn through a
textbook.
So it is very much first handexperience.
And as you mentioned earlier, Ihave had the privilege of
traveling to some incredibledestinations and doing things
that are very, very much outsidethe box, which are not
necessarily always appropriateto bring into Crooked Compass.

(12:21):
Um, but you know, the the basisof it is that there's always an
angle looking for somethingthat's an opportunity, and not
everything is successful thatthat I uh attempt to build.
But yes, it is it is me workingwith a combination of our local
partners, working with tourismboards, uh, and also just my own
self-exploration to come up withthese concepts, have a look what

(12:42):
other tour operators are doing,and try and find that gap that's
being missed.
That that's really the the basisof the of it from a starting
point perspective.

SPEAKER_02 (12:50):
Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
And certainly what stands out tome is like the cultural
integration with any of thedestinations you're taking
people to to.
It's obviously it's part of theexperience.
And knowing uh adventure travellike I do, having worked at G
Adventures and the TravelCorporation for many years and
being at like the AdventureTravel and Trade Association
conference, and you know, one ofthe big things that drives
people to this style of travel,um, you know, within Maslow's

(13:12):
hierarchy of needs, not to getuh um too much into psychology,
but clearly that you know thethe way it's framed at the top
of the pyramid wasself-actualization, which as I
was actually preparing for adiscussion, I was just
refreshing my uh um myrecollection of that and
actually found out interestinglythat Maslow's hierarchy of needs
was never intended to be apyramid, but actually was later
shaped like that.
It was so but we obviously takefrom that um what is sort of at

(13:34):
the the apex and the apex beingself-actualization, which one of
the things that really appealsto people who take adventure
travel, people like yourself andand myself and these types of
trips, they're looking forlife-changing experiences.
They're looking to truly beimpacted and come back
different.
And I guess um I would love toknow if that is what you're
seeing from guests that takeyour trips and and and also the

(13:56):
type of people that you'reseeing take your trips.
Are they couples?
Are they are they solo femaletravelers?
Are they young people?
Is it a mixture?
I mean, what is the experiencelike on tour?
And what is, I guess, thatresult that you're looking for
once they actually get homeafter a crooked compass
experience?

SPEAKER_00 (14:11):
The the result is exactly what you just said
life shifting, we we use thewords that literally on our
homepage, perspective shifting.
Uh that is that is the I guessthe key branding for us.
What we do is perspectiveshifting.
We what we aim to deliver and uhwhat we want people to say when
they're talking about who theytraveled with and why, is that

(14:33):
it was so much more than what Iwanted, and not in terms of you
know, bells and whistles andluxury or anything like that,
but in terms of experience,deeper meaning, deeper
connection, and in a big waystorytelling.
Uh the the types of people whodo come on our tours, there's a
there's a real combination.
We do get a very heavy number ofuh solo female travelers,
especially post-pandemic, moreso than before.

(14:55):
Uh pre-2020, you could see atrend of solo female travelers
increasing, but now it's justkind of like jumped into a whole
nother league.
We do also get a lot of couples.
A lot of couples predominantlydo private touring with us, um,
or they get a group of couplesand you know, book onto one of
our small group tours together.
The type of traveler, in termsof what do they look like, is

(15:18):
generally 55 plus people who arereally well traveled and they're
looking for that stimulation,they have that curiosity,
they're young at heart, notnecessarily in age, but they
understand the value of traveland they're prepared to pay for
these exclusive, unique,unadulterated experiences versus
jumping on a coach with 50 otherpeople, you snap a photo and say

(15:38):
that you've been somewhere.
That they want that connection,and that to them, that is what
the luxury is.

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SPEAKER_02 (18:01):
Yeah, and the other thing I wanted to ask you too,
just in terms of uh appealing tothat clientele, I totally get
and um and fully appreciate thatthese are well-traveled
individuals and they're lookingto go further afield or
destinations that are not uhoffered by their tour operators
and experiences for that matterthat are they're not going to
get elsewhere.
Um when it comes to uhsustainability and this whole

(18:22):
concept of responsible travel,how do you incorporate that into
those experiences and howimportant is that to your guest?
Um and I'll just I'll just addjust uh you know I had James
Thornton, the CEO of Intrepid,on our show, and I asked him a
similar question because I'malways so keen to understand
what are the motivations fortravelers today and is
sustainability becoming you knowreal and meaningful?

(18:43):
And he kindly highlighted to methat he doesn't necessarily see
sustainability as being thereason that someone travels with
Intrepid the first time, but hedefinitely sees it having an
impact on repeat guests, and Ithought that was quite
interesting.
So yeah, how how are youapproaching this and how do you
factor it into the experiences?

SPEAKER_00 (18:57):
I would have to agree with James's comment
there.
I I don't believe that it is areason that people would choose
a travel, or it's not a reasonthat people would choose our
travel brand.
Uh I know, for example, withIntrepid, they are very vocal
and very um, you know, focusedon ensuring people know that
they're B Corp certified andthey do have a very strong um
sustainability, they havesustainability teams within

(19:19):
their company.
For us, we look atsustainability a very different
way.
For us, it's not about thingslike carbon offsets and that
sort of thing.
It is about the localcommunities that we interact
with and that we support.
Sustainability to us is aboutensuring that our money stays in
those communities and providesopportunity.
It is about ensuring that uhwhen we do bring guests, our
impact and our footprint islight.

(19:41):
And very much so that it is notjust about our guests, it has to
be a two-way street.
We call it a cultural exchangewhere it's as much of a benefit
for our guests but it is for thelocal communities as well, from
an education and learning andyou know, expanding the mind
type experience.
So we we look at sustainabilityvery different, much more on a
community level, as opposed to abigger um broad scope trying to

(20:04):
tick every box and plant treesand that sort of thing.
Um, and the same thing based onthe experience and how that is
executed and how that isexperienced by our guests, then
it does become a determiningfactor when they do become a
repeat client because they lovethat, they love that, you know,
that feel-good that you get outof making a difference, and uh,
and that's how we approach it.

SPEAKER_02 (20:26):
That's interesting.
And then one of the things alsothat stood out to me, and you
kind of highlighted you have thesmall group and scheduled
departures, and then of courseyou have the uh custom
itineraries that you can uh thetours by design.
How significant is that as ayour business?
I know one of the things thatcertainly, you know, you have
private tours listed, and Iguess that was certainly one of
the things we saw during thepandemic and after the pandemic
was people taking up privatetours.

(20:47):
How have you seen kind of guessboth sides of your business
grow?

SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
Yeah, so to I guess to compare is probably the the
easiest way.
So pre-pandemic, we were a veryeven split of small group tours
and private touring.
Post-pandemic, this the smallgroup touring is still quite
slow to recover.
It's operating, but with muchlower numbers.
And the the way that peoplespend and the way that people
have decided to travelpost-pandemic has shifted, which

(21:12):
also reflects itself in whatwe're seeing with our private
tours.
People are spending more,they're traveling longer,
they're traveling slower.
And um, because they arespending more, they have that
budget to be able to invest in aprivate experience versus
sharing the cost with a grouptour.

SPEAKER_02 (21:27):
Very interesting.
And let's keep on that theme oftrends then, as we're in 2025,
and clearly your business is uhgrowing.
So I'm keen to know uh beyondjust the types of products, but
also the different markets.
Um but tell us a little bit ofsome of the trends that you're
paying attention to in 2025 asyou grow crooked compass.

SPEAKER_00 (21:45):
Sure.
So the number one trend for usis looking at what's next.
What is that next destination,but trying to be there before
everybody else does.
But that's really where we havesucceeded and what my focus is.
So we we look at um what inquiryis out there, we do keep a very
close eye on competitors.
And you know, in the Australianmarket, we don't we don't have a

(22:07):
lot of direct competitors.
A lot of companies that are verysimilar to us are either
UK-based or US-based.
So watching those markets aswell, because they generally
move quicker than the Australianmarket.
The international markets areusually at least six months
ahead of where our market is.
So it provides a good insight,and it's always been like that.
So, in terms of trends, we'rewe're looking at, you know, last

(22:29):
year, for example, we foresawthat the Balkan area, yeah,
Albania, North Macedonia, um,Bosnia, those sorts of countries
were going to be the next up andcoming.
So we got in early beforeanybody else had launched
product in that region, andwe're already seeing the results
of that come through for 2025.
Same for um, you know, we'relooking more at North Africa.
Morocco has been so strongpost-pandemic that the

(22:50):
Australian market has neverreally been interested.
Most people haven't even heardof Tunisia.
Um, and Algeria, which is, youknow, right next door, one of
the most incredible sites orcountries that has sites of some
of the best preserved Romanruins in the world.
And I was just there inNovember, and 230 Australians

(23:11):
went there last year.
And I was standing in this Romanruin site with my group, and I
just happened to quickly look atmy emails because my phone
vibrated.
And whilst we're standing inthis incredibly well-preserved
Roman city, there was an emailthat came through from Pompeii
saying that they're doing theirbit for sustainable travel and
capping their visitors at 20,000per day.

(23:32):
And here we are standing in asite that could rival that, and
there's 230 Australians a year,and we are the only people
there.
So that is what we look for.
We look for those opportunitieswhere there is a draw card.
It's not always culture andtribal, but things like history,
archaeology, where it is soincredible, but it has just been
so overlooked.

(23:53):
Where can we go that is safe?
We watch places that areemerging as in coming out of a
conflict because we do know, andagain, this comes back to how we
play with the sustainabilitypiece to help rebuild a
destination when it's coming outof a crisis is a big part of
sustainability.
It is a big part about helping adestination get back on its
feet, and it's a big part inbeing in a position where you

(24:16):
can make a difference, you know,because of who our travels are
travelers are and why theychoose to travel.
When we go to our database andwe say, hey guys, this is what's
coming up for next year,register your interest.
We're not quite there yet.
When it's something new anddifferent, like using our jury
again as an example, uh, peoplewant to be the first.

(24:37):
You know, there is a little bitof ego attached to these types
of travelers.
They they want the dinner partystories.
Oh, I guess where I've justbeen.
Oh, what do you mean you'venever heard of it?
Um, that there's that sort ofelement of it too.
And we also take that into playwith how can we deliver that
when we're looking for newopportunities?
What is going to tick thoseboxes?
Because that's what our guestswant.

SPEAKER_02 (24:56):
Yeah, I really find this fascinating.
And I want to dive a littledeeper into this because a good
friend of mine just got backfrom a trip in uh it was he was
in Albania and was raving aboutit and showing me the pictures.
He but he was in Croatia and hewas exploring the region and he
was saying all the Americans arein Croatia and it's so
expensive, all the Europeans arein Albania and it's so
reasonable because they'rehiking and these like you can
stay at hotels for$40 a night.
And he was showing me thesepictures, and it was truly

(25:17):
extraordinary.
And now I've added Albania to mylist.
And um it wasn't before that.
And obviously, this is wheresomeone like yourself that is
visiting these destinations andmaking these decisions,
realizing I'm I sit on the boardof a tour operator in Colombia,
for example, and I've onlyrecent travel to Colombia, and
I'm a huge advocate for this isyou know, there's certain stages
in a country's development whereit's safe, where there's enough

(25:37):
um uh of an infrastructure inplace to be able to uh start
really opening up to tourism.
And I see it playing a big role.
They refer to themselves, theImpulse Travel Team, as change
makers because their whole focusis actually trying to get money
in the hands of local people andreally changing people's
reality, especially away from uhthe narcotics that Columbia's
been known for, um, to likeproducing rum and and uh um and

(26:01):
chocolate and like and movinginto tourism uh focused
industries and having former GAMmembers become guides.
And it's like I I find thataspect of travel really
meaningful.
So I guess what I wanted to askyou is that when you're looking
at these destinations,especially ones that may have
been previously defined byconflict or some sort of
hardship in the media, um, whenyou mention places like Bosnia,

(26:21):
for example, these are uhsometimes places that are not on
people's radar.
Um how do you decide that adestination is kind of ready for
uh tourism?
And how important do you thinktourism is in shifting people's
perceptions of a of a particularregion?
Because I'm uh the places you'vetraveled to, I'm sure you've had
those moments where you're justlike, the people are lovely.

(26:43):
Like, you know, you've met thepeople and you've like you see
the headlines on the news andthen you see the experience
actually on the ground, and it'scompletely different.
So how I guess how do you uhapproach that?
I'm sure that's part of whatinspires you to do what you do.

SPEAKER_00 (26:55):
Yeah, it absolutely is, and and that's a big part of
me going before we startbuilding that product and before
we release it to anybody.
You know, as I mentioned before,there's destinations that I that
I travel to with the intent thatwe're going to look for
opportunity here, and it justdoesn't work for various
reasons.
But uh there is, from ourperspective, we do quite an
extreme and and thorough riskand crisis management.

(27:18):
That that is kind of the basisbefore we start building a tour,
especially if it's somethingthat's coming out of the
conflict, it needs to have had adecent amount of time for things
to settle.
Um, and there's a lot of boxesthat we have to tick, especially
from an insurance perspective,before we can just decide um to
go in there.
And I guess as well, beingAustralian, our government is
incredibly conservative comparedto some others.

(27:41):
And whilst you see otherinternational operators
operating small group tours onplaces like mainland Yemen,
South Sudan, I would love tooffer that.
We can't touch it, we don't getthe insurance and it doesn't
quite tick the boxes for ourrisk assessment.
Yes, I've been and done theexercise, but we would not carry
guests at this stage.
So that there's a lot ofbackground work to ensure the
duty of care.

(28:01):
The duty of care is number one.
Uh, once we know that that canbe managed, once we know if
something clears up that we canget people out, um, once we have
the right partners in place,then we move on to the fun part
of developing the product.
Um and and it sort of goesthrough this process that starts
off with this very dryframework, and then it moves
into the beautiful fun.

(28:22):
Okay, who can we work with?
Who's who gets our vision, whoaligns with what it is that we
want to deliver, and and weshift that way.
But absolutely, as you say, youknow, the the media do play a
big part in um putting outbarriers for a lot of people.
Uh scare tactics, I'm not sureif that's the the right word,
but this is the beauty of ourstyle of travelers they see

(28:42):
what's in the mainstream media,but they want to experience it
themselves and make up their ownmind.
So, you know, when I when Imentioned earlier talking about
Papua New Guinea, that it's notfor everybody.
A lot of our product is not foreverybody, it's for a certain
mindset style of traveler.

SPEAKER_02 (28:57):
Well, one of the things I'd be interested to know
too is that, you know, I know Iunderstand that people are
putting their hands up and whenthey're coming to you to travel
outside their comfort zone andexplore places that are often
overlooked by mainstreamtourism.
So when they are curious butstill not convinced and they
still are um feeling hesitantabout traveling to an
unconventional destination, uh,how do you manage that?

(29:19):
And I guess I'm just I'm j I'mgenuinely curious because I have
found it myself what whensomeone would say to us, you
really need to experience this,and you go, oh no, I've I and
then you go and you're like allof a sudden, but sometimes it
takes a bit of hand holding.
You don't um and that sometimescomes from a a trusted friend,
but in your case, obviouslyyou're the trusted tour
operator.
So um what would you say tosomeone who is considering a

(29:39):
trip with Crooked Compass now toPapua New Guinea?
You you very clearly said it'snot for everyone, and I think
that's important to clarify.
But yeah, how how do you umencourage in a positive way for
people to kind of uh take thatleap of faith and travel
somewhere that they you knowthat is beyond their comfort
zone?

SPEAKER_00 (29:56):
Aaron Powell There's really two two ways that we do
it, and one is Managingexpectations and being
absolutely transparent.
I would rather lose a sale thanhave the wrong person in a
destination because that is justa complete disaster in itself.
And uh the other way isencourage people to ask
questions and get it out ofthem.
What what is their concern?

(30:17):
Is it something that they saw onsocial media or on the news?
Is it something that, you know,we still get people talking
about wars that were 30 yearsago as if they were just
finished yesterday?
You know, that there's a lot ofmisconception or data that's
kind of jumbled in people'sminds with when it actually
happened and what has happenedsince then.
You know, you just mentionedAlbania for yourself.
You speak to so many peopleabout Albania, and the reaction

(30:39):
is, why would you go there?
That is just a complete dump.
It's all ruined.
You go there now, and it is thenext upcoming destination in
Eastern Europe.
And it is incredible.
And at the moment, it'sincredibly good value for money.
And I literally had thisconversation two days ago with a
client who was who had concernsabout Albania, and she's doing

(30:59):
going hiking up in there in themountains.
And I said, those mountainshaven't changed, they have been
untouched.
It's the city that you've gotyour little um, you know, your
preconception about.
Nothing's happened in thosemountains.
And so it's it's about beinghonest, it's about being very
transparent.
And for us, we will point outthose worst-case scenario

(31:19):
situations, and we will say, youknow, if you want to go to Papua
New Guinea, we had, you know,this many people this year, and
literally 100% of them had aflight cancellation because of
fuel shortages.
So if you're gonna go, this iswhat will probably happen, and
this is how you manage it.
You choose, yes or no, we'llgive you the information.
So our role is to educate and tobe transparent and provide the

(31:41):
information for the person tothen make their decision.
We would never ever pushsomebody onto something who is
hesitant because that's gonnalead to disaster.
They have to want it.

SPEAKER_02 (31:50):
For sure.
No, that's that's very clear,and I wanted to cover that
because I find that the uh thatthere's so many people,
especially older travelers thatlisten to our podcast that are
sometimes hesitant to go to aparticular destination for
exactly what described, theirperception or some of the
history.
But one of the things I'd loveto know, given how much
traveling you've done, um, iswhat else is on your list?

(32:11):
And and what where else wouldyou uh are you planning to go?
And where else would you like tosee uh open up to the world?

SPEAKER_00 (32:17):
Oh, there's so many places that I would love to see
open up to the world.
One of the ones that I've beenwatching for quite some time is
Iraq.
Uh, it's controversial.
It is said to be incrediblybeautiful.
I've done all the surroundingcountries.
I haven't done that one.
We've been waiting for, youknow, a certain level to settle.
We are almost there for me to beable to start doing the you know

(32:38):
very early stages of our riskand crisis management process.
And that is somewhere, you know,when I speak to the people who
are in this sort of adventurespace in the tourism um section,
who do operate there or who havebeen there, it just it just
seems so right for our portfolioand for our clientele with those
sorts of areas that have sort ofcome in and out of conflict.

(33:00):
There's a lot of our travelers,because of the demographic that
we play in, who have been tothese countries as backpackers
and now they want to go back andsee this transformation.
Syria is another one, you know.
We've just had the change ofgovernment last week.
And from a tourism perspective,that's potentially quite
positive, but there's still alot of unknowns, and you know,
it's it's gonna be a long time.

(33:21):
We have product ready to gothere, that is sitting in the
wings, we just can't promote ityet.
So there's a lot of things likethat, more in that sort of
Central Asia, Middle Easternspace.
Um, and then it's the same withWest Africa, Western Central
Africa.
Again, we've got product sittingin the wings that we've been
tinkering with, but timing'sjust not right, or there's
certain things going on in theground that just need to subside

(33:44):
before we can get ready tostart.
You know, usually when we bringin a destination like that, it
does take two years for it toget into people's okay, yeah, we
can go there now.
These guys have been promotingit for a while.
I can see that the founder'sbeen there.
I've seen their YouTube videos,I've seen this, I can ask my
questions, and that there's aprocess.
It's not, all right, guys, we'rejust gonna go and start selling
Mali again in West Africa.

(34:04):
Who's coming next week?
It it doesn't work like that,unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 (34:08):
And the other area, I know you offer Saudi Arabia,
and um, so I was actuallycurious just to ask you about
that, since Saudi Arabia iseverywhere with their marketing
and messaging at all theconferences, and and so um, I
guess my question to you is youknow, do you think uh having
traveled there and operatingtrips there, that that is one of
the big uh travel destinationsthat we're gonna see more and

(34:28):
more travelers go to?
Where do where do you see SaudiArabia's role in Middle Eastern
travel?

SPEAKER_00 (34:34):
Saudi Arabia is a very interesting one because
it's very controversial.
Uh yes, you're correct.
I have been over there, and itis very different to the rest of
the Middle East.
As you have seen firsthand, theyhave so much money to splash
around.
They are sponsoring everything.
And when they came into theAustralian market, which was

(34:54):
only two years ago, um, this isthe tourism board we're talking
about to promote thedestination.
It was very, oh my god, no oneshould support this.
This is a regime, and it wasvery negatively taken.
However, everybody's entitled totheir own opinion, and there are
these travelers who arefascinated.
They can see that it is acountry going through incredible

(35:14):
transformation.
And this is one thing that, youknow, when you're working with
this style of travel, one of thebig things is change.
You know, every country evolves,every country changes, and it
doesn't happen fast.
So a lot of people want to see acountry in its current state
before it transforms andprogresses.
And Saudi Arabia is sitting inthat sort of tinkering, it's

(35:36):
still got a lot of things andprocesses and policies and a
system that a lot of people donot believe, and they'll use
that as a reason not to supportgoing to the country and you
know, providing tourism dollarsto the economy.
Whereas other people can see,you know, there's a young king,
he's shifting things, he'sallowed women to work in roles
like journalism and to getdriver's licenses and things

(35:56):
that weren't possible five yearsago.
And so they can see things asshifting and they want to see it
before it shifts too much.
So it's a real um black andwhite destination.
You really don't speak to anyonethat's sort of like, oh yeah, I
kind of consider it.
It's either I want to go or Iwould never support it.
And the way that tourismoperates over there is so

(36:17):
different.
You know, the rest of the MiddleEast is very authentic and it's
very focused on culture andtradition.
Saudi is like in a way, a Dubai.
It's all man-made, it's allglitter, it's all a front, and
similar to travel in NorthKorea, you only see what you're
allowed to see.

(36:37):
There is a bit of a veil.
And uh some people love thatbecause they've got the
curiosity, oh, what do youreckon?
You know, even when I was there,I said to our guide, um, I don't
want to eat in this restaurant,I don't I don't want to eat
where the other tourists are, Iwant to eat where you go with
your friends.
And he said it's not possible.
So, you know, and then I'm like,oh, why isn't it possible?
How can I go there?

SPEAKER_02 (36:57):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (36:59):
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SPEAKER_02 (38:55):
And now, back to the show.
The other thing I wanted to askyou too, and and and then I want
to talk a little bit about uhhow your business is going to
grow, uh, but I wanted just toask one more about the
destinations that you offer.
So you you highlighted somethingthere that I find um uh so
important about travel.
I never wanted to be one ofthose people that would say, oh,
you should have experiencedThailand in this time, or like

(39:17):
but the reality is like like orlike New York in the 70s, like
we used to play a bit of a gamewhere you'd say, like, if you
could live anywhere in the worldat any time, what would that be?
And um and it is kind of a fungame to take you on a bit of a
history tour and like what theworld was like at certain
places.
Uh but part of the reason Idon't like the game, of course,
is because the idea that like weonly live in present times and
you need to make the most of thetime that we're in, like not.

(39:38):
But if but to that exactquestion, um if you uh think of
the destinations right now thatyou think are just like I say
that with col with um Columbia.
Like I think Columbia is at aperfect time to be able to go
where it's affordable andthere's enough um in place there
to make an an amazing trip.
What are those places that standout to you that you are like

(39:59):
that if if you were behindsomebody as they're navigating
your website or at a booth at auh trade show, and you're just
like, oh, you know, these aretwo or three places that you
should really be consideringgoing right now because over the
next few years, like it willchange.
There will become you know,there will uh start to become
issues with um uh over tourismor like so what would be some of

(40:20):
the places that stand out to youthat are just like, oh, this is
the time to in 2025 or 2026.
Here's a couple of defindestinations that you should
really try to get to.

SPEAKER_00 (40:28):
Central Asia, the Silk Road, the five stands,
that's absolutely one that hasbeen quite slow to recover.
They were very slow to reopenborders, which um has made
people nervous as to why.
And now that they're allreopened, you can just see this
surge of people wanting to go.
You know, from an Australianperspective, there's only one
that now needs a visa.

(40:48):
So it's never been soaccessible, and that
accessibility will naturallylead to volume.
Um, so that that's one of them.
Get in there now because 2025will be busy, and then 2026,
it's it's just you can see theexplosion coming.
The other one we've sort ofalluded to is that Balkans area,
Serbia, Montenegro, um, Albania,North Macedonia, even Bulgaria

(41:10):
and Romania.
They're destinations that wehave been watching for quite
some time, and you can juststart to see that trajectory
pick up.
And so to get in there whileit's still not young or green in
its tourism stages, but thevolume of passengers aren't
there or travelers aren't there,just to have that space, just to
have that um more, I guess,intimate experience with the

(41:32):
destination instead of you knowdodging between people following
flags off cruise ships and thosesorts of things, which haven't
quite reached those regions yet.

SPEAKER_02 (41:40):
That's really helpful, and I appreciate that
because that's actually adestination I need to get to,
and I'm gonna make that part ofmy plans for 2025.
So, on that topic, tell us someof the other plans that you have
for Crooked Compass in 2025,whether it's expanding into new
markets, adding otherdestinations.
I know we've talked uh quite abit about some of the places you
offer, and clearly that's an umyou continually evolving the

(42:01):
product.
But yeah, tell us about some ofthe other plans that you have
for Crooked Compass.

SPEAKER_00 (42:04):
Absolutely.
So product development is alwaysat the forefront.
We're always looking,researching, jumping on planes,
looking for those newopportunities.
That doesn't stop.
It just shifts depending onwhat's going on in the world.
Um but beyond that, you know,for us, we are in a perfect
position now.
We've recovered from thepandemic, we're strong, we're
recruiting, our team's growing.

(42:26):
Every couple of months we've gotsomebody new on board, and so
we're we're in that primeposition to now look beyond
Australia.
So for some time we have beenpreparing to launch into um the
North American market.
We're still not quite there yet,but we are getting close.
Um, we want to do it well.
It's a market that operates verydifferently from ours.
However, I do know that there isan incredible appetite for our

(42:46):
style of tours and that um, youknow, Americans in terms of
adventure travelers, they arelooking for something new.
They do want to be educated,they do want that stimulation.
And whilst there are, you know,competitors in the space, there
is a lot that we do differently.
And the one part that we dounderstand about that North
American market is where we sitfrom a competitor perspective.

(43:09):
So we've got that part sorted.
Now it's just how do how do wereach those people?
That's our next step.

SPEAKER_02 (43:14):
Yeah, I'm very excited for Crooked Compass to
launch in the US.
And I had said to uh Lisa justbefore we started our
conversation, because weactually have a number of
colleagues in common, and one ofthem um is Global Journeys, and
Global Journeys based uhactually not too far from you,
they're a little further on theSunshine Coast, and uh but uh
near Brisbane and Australia, andthey're a very successful OTA,
and they do um they're already agreat partner with Crooked

(43:35):
Compass.
And I, on the acceleration teamside, because most of our
listeners know I kind of dividemy side myself between travel
trends and and running anacceleration team and work with
a number of travel companies tohelp them scale.
And one of them I've beenworking with the last year is
Global Journeys to set up theirToronto office and expand in the
North America market.
And I had said to Lisa thatactually um I had spotted that
you were actually one of theirsuppliers in Australia, and I

(43:56):
was keen to know if we couldstart selling the product in
North America, because I Ireally do think I know Canadians
would love this product.
Um Canadians are often similarto Australians in terms of being
a slightly more intrepidtravelers.
Um, but Americans wouldabsolutely benefit from this
style of travel.
So I'm very excited for you tomake that happen in 2025, and
our biggest market for thispodcast is the US.

(44:17):
So definitely uh I'd encourageeveryone.
I've I've registered for yournewsletter and I'd encourage
other people to do the same.
Or obviously they could likelyfind uh these experiences on
globaljourneys uh.com as well tobe able to uh to access them and
book them.
Um but that's really exciting.
And so yeah, tell us a littlebit more about um what are your
personal plans, because clearlyyou must travel half the time.

(44:38):
So and and how much time are youspending outside of Australia
exploring new destinations, ontrip with your guests?
What does that look like foryou?

SPEAKER_00 (44:47):
We are just growing so much at the moment, which
actually requires me to be herea little bit more to ensure that
structure and training and umall those sorts of opportunities
that I can now delegate to otherpeople to jump on planes instead
of me doing it all the time.
Um, which is which is exciting.
You know, you always want to begrowing other people.
It's not not just aboutyourself.
But uh for me, I generally mostof my travels are to do with

(45:10):
product development.
Um, but this year I am escortinga couple more tours, which I
haven't had the uh opportunityto do as much as I I did um in
my early years.
I've got a son now, so school,school constricts me a little
bit.
Um, but we I am escorting ourtour.
We've got a tour going toMongolia and Kazakhstan.
I'm escorting one of our toursto the Mount Hagen Cultural Show

(45:32):
in Papua New Guinea, and thenthere's yeah, a fair few product
development trips.
And that that's kind of myschedule.
There'll be things that crop upthat are not necessarily planned
as they always happen.
And uh ideally, I'd love, I'dlove for the business to be in
this prime position by this timenext year where I can take our
entire team to one of ourdestinations and do a little

(45:52):
mini conference.
And that that's that's the biggolf.

SPEAKER_02 (45:54):
Oh, that would be amazing.
I'm sure it will happen.
I think the future is verybright.
And so there's a couple lastquestions that I had for you,
and then uh if you wouldn'tmind, one of the things I'd like
to ask you if that's right,Lisa, given that I was raised by
a single mom and I'm I a strongadvocate for female leaders,
which uh hopefully is in goingforward will be one of those
things that's just leaders, maleor female.

(46:15):
But obviously, there is uhwomen's organizations for
mentorship, and I think this isall very important.
And so I just actually wanted toask you, you know, given that
you're uh a strong female leaderleading this global travel
brand, um, what advice you mightgive to someone else that is
either considering a career intravel or not taking on an
entrepreneurship role likeyou've done?

SPEAKER_00 (46:35):
I guess there's two things to really be mindful of
when you're looking at joiningthis industry.
One is you don't join the traveland tourism industry to become a
millionaire.
You join it for passion.
And for anybody who has beensuccessful in their own
business, you will know thatpassion is what makes you
succeed.
It's what drives you and it whatit's what makes things happen,

(46:57):
and um, that is what makes yousuccessful.
So you you don't enter thetravel industry because you
think you're gonna get freetrips.
You enter the travel industrybecause you love the industry
and you have a you don't knowthe industry at this point, but
you love the idea of theindustry, the lifestyle that it
can bring, but you're preparedto work hard for it.
It's very much a work hard, playhard industry.

(47:19):
And I think that that's lost ina lot of uh the way that our
industry is portrayed.
People just see that everybodyis traveling all the time, and
yes, that is true to an extentfor certain people in certain
roles.
It's not everybody.
So it's about being transparentabout what the different sectors
of the industry look like.
What is it that connects withyou?
Like what is your interest?
If it's just I want to travelfor free, well, sorry, that's

(47:41):
you know, we're not really gonnaend up with a successful career.
If it's, oh, I love beingcreative, or I'm fascinated by
this, or you know, I did adegree in archaeology and I'm
really fascinated indestinations that are linked to,
you know, ancient civilizationsor or whatever it might be,
there definitely is somewherefor you in this in this space.
So it's it's about being honestand having conversations about

(48:03):
what's possible and therealities of working in this
industry.
It's not a nine-to-five job, itis an around-the-clock job.
Um, and you don't get paid forworking around the clock.
That that's just the nature ofit.
For someone who wants to go downthe path of um the
entrepreneurial ship and runsomething themselves and back
themselves, the number one thingis that you have to have that

(48:25):
confidence to back yourself.
You need to believe in yourskill set, you need to know that
you know, there will be noise,there will be people that say to
you, Oh, you can't do this,you're insane, why would you do
this?
Um, you need to back yourselfmore than 100% to know that
failure is not an option.
That's that's the biggest thingthat I can say to anybody who
wants to go down that pathbecause it's tough.

(48:46):
People don't like um, you know,this is well, that's probably
the wrong words, but peopledon't like um seeing others
thrive all the time.
You know, there is a certaintype of person who is set to
just be an employee, and thereis a certain type of person who
is wired to be something morethan that.
And unfortunately, they don'talways align.
And tall poppy syndrome is ahuge thing when you move into

(49:08):
this entrepreneurial space.
You know, people who you'veworked with in the past or
people, you know, there'sthere's always something, and
you have to have a thick skin.
Thick skin, backing yourself andfollowing your heart and
passion.
They're my three three points ofadvice.

SPEAKER_02 (49:22):
Excellent advice and very inspiring.
And I just want to share withour listeners too, because I
became familiar with tall poppyum that expression when I was
living in Australia, which isum, you know, as someone rises
above, people try and cut themdown.
And um, so in differentcultures, I mean that that
exists, but it certainly is thecase um in uh a lot of English
language markets.
Certainly in Australia you'llsee it in Canada too, but it

(49:43):
goes by different uh terms.
But you're absolutely right, andI'm glad that you have
persevered and overcome any ofthat, and that um you're
continuing to play this uhimportant leadership role.
So thank you for that advice.
The other thing I wanted to askyou though is one of your best
travel stories, given you'veprobably got so many.
And but uh I would love if youwouldn't mind sharing a
particularly uh poignant part ofyour travels or an interesting

(50:06):
tale from one of your trips orexperiences uh with our
listeners.

SPEAKER_00 (50:10):
Oh, this is so hard to answer.
There's so many different waysthat I could I could go with
this.
Um, but I'm going to go down thecontroversial route of North
Korea.
Uh, North Korea, I know that itis a challenging destination,
especially in the North Americanmarket.
Um, however, the reason that Iwant to share this story is
because it is just the perfectexample of the media portraying

(50:35):
something and the experiencebeing even more than an opposite
experience.
So, North Korea, we all see themarching parades on the TV, we
all see the missiles beingparaded down the main street, we
all hear about the dictatorship,and yes, that does all exist.
We're not going to pretend thatit doesn't.
However, from a travelperspective, when you are there,

(50:57):
it is incredibly controlled.
You are not allowed to have freetime on your own to walk around.
You have to be with your guideand your minder, who is your um
operational coordinator, is isthe words that they use.
But you hear that you can't talkto the locals, you can't do
this, you're just observing.

(51:17):
And that's not true.
When you are there, the oh, it'sjust so incredible.
You can't you can't even put itinto words.
You can talk to the locals, theyjust don't speak English, and
they're incredibly shy becausethey're not used to seeing
foreigners.
You know, out of the the borderis still closed there, but when
I was there building ourproduct, the the numbers, there
were five and a half thousandpeople who went to North Korea a
year, and 97% of them wereChinese from the Chinese market.

(51:43):
So for those people to seeWesterners, it is very, very
extreme.
And so there is this naturalhesitancy, but there is also
this curiosity.
And when I was there, we went toum Mount Kungang National Park
and went hiking.
It was November, it was so, sobeautiful, and it is not what
anybody would ever ever imagine.

(52:05):
It was like being in theRockies, it was all these like
granite and sandstone mountains,it had just started snowing, so
there was snow on the tops.
The water was so, so crystalclear and so pristine.
There was no rubbish, literallynothing anywhere.
And it was so incrediblybeautiful.
When I show people my photosfrom this region, they're going,

(52:28):
that is so not what I had in myhead about North Korea.
And you know, then we wentskiing.
There's ski fields in NorthKorea, and just everything that
you think you know was just socompletely flipped.
Yes, it is very controlled, butthe experience you have, we went
bar hopping.
There's a microbrewery scene inPyongyang in the capital city.
We went bar hopping.
Yeah, we're separated from thelocals in the bar, but that's

(52:50):
okay, they're still there.
But just all these things thatare just not what you thought.
And it just really stands outfor me as like this really
unique and it is life-changingand it is mind-altering and it
is perspective shifting, whichis all the things that we want
to deliver and all the thingsthat I personally want to get
out of travel.
And it just is the mostmind-boggling, confusing,

(53:12):
strange country, but it is alsoso rewarding to have the
privilege to be there.
Because, you know, whilst Istill I still don't understand
how a country like that canfunction in this day and age,
the more travelers that go inhelp shift that change.
It helps educate the localpeople, and you can see, you can
see the curiosity, you can seethat they don't quite understand

(53:35):
how you fit into all of this.
And you know, we're talkingabout change earlier,
particularly around SaudiArabia.
Um, North Korea has to change atsome point, and tourism plays a
part in that.
It's very, very slow.
Um, but maybe this is the reasonthat the border hasn't opened
again yet.
But yeah, in terms of a travelstory, I mean, this isn't me
just saying, Oh, we did this andthis is what happened.

(53:56):
Like it was an experience thathad so many different elements
that just shifts so much.
And I talk about it all the timebecause it's just there's
literally nothing else like itthat you can compare it to.

SPEAKER_02 (54:07):
Oh, that's amazing.
I'm really glad you shared that.
And I traveled to South Koreabefore I lived in Australia.
And when I was living and I wentto the demilitarized zone, of
course, it's eerie becausethey're blasting the loud music,
and there's that, you know, twomiles of um kind of pristine
forest because no one's kind ofuh for 50, 60 years has has um
has been in that space.
And there um uh when I was in uhuh working at Lonely Planet,

(54:30):
Tony Wheeler had visited thethree axes of evil countries uh
shortly after that speech wasgiven and went to North Korea.
And I've always been intriguedby it, so it's very much uh high
on my list.
And you've actually furtherinspired me that that is
definitely a place that I doneed to uh to get to.
So um, you know, thanks verymuch for sharing that story and
thanks for sharing the journeythat you've been on with Crooked
Compass.
I'm you know it's a pleasure tomeet you, Lisa.

(54:51):
I'm very excited for whereyou've gotten this business to.
I'm I'm super excited for you tolaunch in North America, and uh
you'll have our full support,that's for sure.
But um, let's make sure any ofour listeners, if they want to
find out more about you, reachout to you, or connect with
Crooked Compass, uh please leteveryone know how best to do so.

SPEAKER_00 (55:07):
Yes, so if you are interested in having a look at
what we offer, our website isabsolutely the best place to go
to, which is crooked-there's ahyphen in the middle there,
compass.com.
Otherwise, if you're justlooking for a bit of inspiration
and love to see what we're doingand where we're going, we are on
all your major social channels,Facebook, uh, Instagram,
predominantly LinkedIn as well,for those people who are more in
that that sort of businessspace.

(55:28):
And for anybody who would loveto connect directly with me.
Um I also am, of course, onLinkedIn and also do have um my
own personal LinkedIn, which ismy my name, Lisa Pagotto, with
an underscore at the end.
And uh yeah, you can certainlyfollow along my travels.
And like many people do, feelfree to throw questions while
I'm traveling about anythingthat you may like to know.
And I I'd be more than happy tohelp educate you on what we do,

(55:51):
why we do, and how we do it.

SPEAKER_02 (55:53):
Well, that's amazing, Lisa.
I'm definitely gonna have somemore questions for you as I make
my travel plans for next year,but I'll uh I'll reach out to
you after this.
But no, I'm super excited foryou and for Crooked Compass with
what's ahead.
Thanks again for joining us, andI look forward to keeping in
touch.

SPEAKER_00 (56:06):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much, Dan.
It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 (56:08):
Thanks so much for joining us on this latest
episode of Travel Trends.
I really hope you enjoyed theconversation today with Lisa
Pagat, the founder and CEO ofCrooked Compass.
I am thoroughly enjoying thisemerging Tour series, and I
would definitely want to do moreof this going into 2026.
So feel free to reach out to usif you want to be featured on
our podcast in 2026 or partnerwith us in some way.

(56:30):
And I just wanted to say aspecial thanks again to Alex and
the team at Tor Seta forsponsoring this series.
You can find out more abouttheir multi-day tour and group
tour booking platform atTorSeta.com.
That's T-O-R-S-E-T-A.com.
And then next week we have onemore episode for you.
We have Will Cannes from ActiveEngland Tours to round out not

(56:51):
only a global perspective, butalso to bring someone in that is
a real veteran in this space.
And you can hear from hisjourney about his plans for
Active England tours over thenext five years as he plans a
succession plan.
So starting with Nabila, a youngentrepreneur, then speaking to
Lisa Pagat, as you heard fromtoday.
And Will, next week, I thinkwe'll give everyone a good

(57:13):
perspective of these multi-daytour operators that fly below
the radar of some of the largeroperators, but are really
running meaningful businessesthat are growing and scaling.
So thanks again for joining thisseries.
I really appreciate everyone'sinterest in this topic.
And until next week, safetravels.