Viator: Powering 400,000+ Experiences Around the Globe

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
When you're leading a large team and you're leading a
large revenue stream, you can'tonly be looking inward.
You need to understand theenvironment that you exist in.
It's really important to belooking.
My job as a VP is to be lookingtwo years down the road, not
two weeks down the road.
So I wake up every morning andI listen to five or six podcasts
and I make sure that I'mgetting a really broad view of

(00:26):
international and American news.
So probably the most importantthing I listen to is the FT,
which makes sure that I amgetting outside of American news
and really understanding what'shappening in the world.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Travel Trends
Season 6.
This is your host, danChristian.
Everyone, and welcome back toTravel Trends Season 6.
This is your host, danChristian, and today we're going
to continue our deep dive intoIn-Destination Experiences, part
2, which is kindly sponsored byour friends over at Pernod
Ricard, who share our passionfor authentic experiences and
shaping the future of immersivetravel.
You can find out moreinformation about all their

(01:00):
brand homes at pernodricardcom.
Now, on's episode.
We are moving from one of themost revolutionary
in-destination experiencecompanies in Meow Wolf that you
heard from last week to thelargest global marketplace for
in-destination experiences, withthe VP of marketing for Viator,
laurel Greatrix.
Now, next week, we're going tohave the founder of GeoTourist,

(01:24):
which is an app that augmentsthe in-destination experience,
to round out this series, and wealso have several tours and
activities providers lined upfor our AI Summit October 28th
and 29th.
So make sure that you registerto join us.
You can find out moreinformation at
TravelTrendsPodcastcom, andthat's where you can also find a

(01:44):
special promo code to join usand the team from Viator and
TripAdvisor at Focusrite in SanDiego in November.
The promo code will give you$250 off your ticket and it
guarantees you a feature in ourevent spotlight.
Now let's welcome anothercaptain of industry to Travel
Trends, laurel Greatrix, the VPof Marketing from Viator.

(02:06):
Welcome, laurel, it's so greatto have you on the show.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
Absolutely.
I really wanted to have you aspart of this opening series of
Season 6, as part of ourCaptains of Industry.
You and I have met a number oftimes and gotten to know each
other.
I've been so impressed withwhat you've accomplished in your
career and, obviously, thesuccess trajectory of Viator,
and I think most of ourlisteners certainly are familiar
with Viator.
So today's conversation isreally going to be about your
career and Viator, because I seethe two very intertwined and

(02:34):
you always stood out to me assomeone that, despite various
changes in the organization,just continue to deliver, and I
think our audience has seen thatfrom the results of Viator.
So in many ways, I see you asthe unsung hero of Viator and I
think that you've got so much tooffer our listeners and people
in the industry, also as astrong female executive and the

(02:54):
first female executive.
That's a part of season six, andwhen we talked about the
captains of industry theme as ateam, that was something that
was so important for us is thatwe didn't want captains of
industry to be like look likemale pilots, like that's what
people picture of captains ofindustry.
That's not my view of theindustry and obviously I'm
really keen to have thisconversation with you.
So let's, let's give all of ourlisteners a bit of background.

(03:15):
Tell everyone I know you're inLondon today and kindly joining
us for this recording, butyou're based in Boston.
But you're actually alsoCanadian.
You're an undercover Canadianliving in the US.
So tell us a little bit aboutyour background, how you got
into travel and how you ended upin Boston.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
Well, first of all, thank you very much for that
introduction.
I think you're probably, maybeother than my dad, the first,
last and only person to describeme as a captain of industry,
but I will take it.
Thank you very much for such awarm intro.
Yes, so, as you said, I amCanadian and I now live in the
US.
But I got into travel very,very intentionally.

(03:51):
As a kid I didn't travel much.
You grew up in Ontario, soyou'll know how it goes, but I
spent most of my childhoodvacations being piled into a
minivan and driving from AverageBeach to Average Beach.
So by the time I was graduatinguniversity, I was just like
bursting with desire foradventure.
So I ended up leaving thecountry, canada, for Taiwan two

(04:13):
days after my last final examand I never really came back.
I mean, I came back for periodsof a couple of months, but I've
really lived abroad since I wasabout 22 or 23.
So, as I said, I went to Taiwanfor a couple of years, I did
some backpacking and over thattime I worked out that I really,
really wanted to work andtravel.
So I got what was a truly,truly dreadfully paid job

(04:36):
working at a PR agency in Londonon hotels and DMOs and airlines
and travel tech, and I was ableto afford lunch maybe twice a
week then, but I loved it and Inever really looked back.
So I was in the agency world fora couple of years and then I
ended up in TripAdvisor in the2010s and that was really where

(04:56):
my career changed quite a bit.
I was never really on the corebusiness.
I got sort of immediately putinto the growth categories.
So I was in vacation rentals atthe time that Airbnb was making
a name for itself or was likereally kind of completely
reinventing the category, andthen I got into Viator.
The moment that experiencesreally exploded, and so our

(05:17):
teams back then were prettysmall.
It meant all hands on deck, foreverything that we were doing
took way outside of my roots incomms and marketing and it
really was a combination of yes,hard work, but there was a lot
of right place, right time,amazing people, amazing product,
and I look back on it now.
I'm still in it and this is aprofessional experience I never

(05:41):
would have imagined back when Iwas writing listicles in a PR
agency that I would just be sodeeply ashamed to review again
today.
But it's yeah, it's been justan unbelievable trip at
TripAdvisor and Viator.
I've worked with unbelievablyintelligent people on really,
really cool problems and I amjust really grateful I've gotten
to do what I've gotten to doand, as I said, never would have

(06:03):
expected that this is how itwould have all panned out, but
it did and I love it.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
Well, that's fantastic and I certainly one of
the things we hear as Canadiansis like the world needs more
Canada and I think you're agreat example of that, because
you left and never came back,and I think the travel industry
is certainly better for it.
And, yes, the listicle era thatyou lived in London, like this,
is why you know I find itreally interesting your career
trajectory because you haveworked your way up and I think

(06:28):
that is something thatespecially our younger listeners
that instantly look at someonelike yourself and are like I
want that job.
That looks incredible.
It's like well, actuallythere's about 15 years of really
hard yards that you have to getto that position that give you
the credibility, the experienceand everything else to be able
to drive a team of like 80people that you're now running
and I do feel like it's you'relike and you're like sometimes

(06:50):
not allowed to say that that alot of it really does come down
to hard work, but a lot of itreally did just come down to
extremely long working days andworking weeks.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
And, you know, not everyone needs to be putting in
60, 70 hour weeks, but the thingI found that really worked for
me was that I was always doingthings I really loved, and so,
yes, the working weeks were long, the hours were long, the days
were long, the travel wasextensive, but you know not to
sound too cheesy I always really, really enjoyed it and that
made the hard work feel a littlebit less like hard work.
But yeah, it's a kind of anunpopular take, but putting in

(07:20):
the hours really was pretty,pretty important to moving on up
.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree with you more and that's
why I wanted to emphasize that,because I was at Lonely Planet
when you were at TripAdvisor andwe saw the world at that time
as sort of those were the twoarch rivals.
You had editorial contentagainst user-generated content
and there was sort of the battlebetween the CEOs at the time.
We kind of know how that playedout, with Lonely Planet being
acquired TripAdvisor and thenTripAdvisor ultimately buying

(07:47):
Viator.
And this was another part thatI think is really interesting
about your story and backgroundis that you were at TripAdvisor
for nearly 10 years before youthen moved over to Viator.
So tell us a little bit, I guess, for our listeners if anyone's
not familiar with TripAdvisorand Viator, just give everyone a
little bit of like an overviewof those two organizations and
how that transition came to befor you.

(08:07):
Because I'll just highlight onething is that from the
TripAdvisor Viator acquisitionand it really became the jewel
in the crown and it's beendriving a lot of the success,
growth and profitability.
And now that's been kind ofrevealed and now everyone knows
that.
And there was you four, fouryears ago transitioning into
that role and then seeing thecomeback from the pandemic.
But yeah, give everyone alittle bit of an overview, if

(08:28):
you would mind, of those twoorganizations and then what,
what your role is yeah, so um,trip advisor and viator I mean,
trip advisor has been aroundsince 2020 or, sorry, since 2000
.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
Viator since I think it was 1995, but I think it was
2012 or 2013, might haveactually been 2014, when we
acquired Viator and the thinkingat that time was that
TripAdvisor had thisunbelievable traffic asset half
a billion people a year usingTripAdvisor to plan their trips
and we had all of these thingsto do pages but there was no or
I shouldn't say there was nothere was very little commercial

(09:01):
oomph or commercial power tothem.
So we looked at Viator and atthe time experience was growing.
It wasn't growing like it isnow, but Viator had this amazing
supply asset.
I say that now.
I think it had 10,000 or 20,000products when we acquired it
and now it's 400,000.
So that tells you where thishas gone.
But back then we looked at thisand thought that's amazing.
Let's acquire Viator.
We will take this growth asset,or rather this traffic asset

(09:23):
and the supply asset, we willsmash them together and magic
will be made.
And that is kind of not exactlywhat happened right away.
So we acquired Viator, we didsort of quite immediately
integrate it, but the magicdidn't happen as quickly as we
thought, and sort of what werealized is that there was a lot

(09:43):
of power in the Viator brandname and in the Viator traffic
asset and so, as much as wethought supply was the magic of
Viator, it was actually thewhole product.
So in those initial years, whatwe did was we really focused on
selling experiences through theTripAdvisor point of sale, and
this was around the time thatAirbnb entered.
The category Get your Guide wasgrowing really quickly.

(10:04):
Clute came to be and what westarted to learn was that these
single vertical OTAs really didspeak very, very well to
travelers.
So around this time we thought,okay, certainly TripAdvisor has

(10:26):
this amazing traffic asset, butprobably there is an unsung
hero in the Viator traffic assetas well.
So we started reinvesting intothe Viator brand, building our
supply and using both points ofsale, both TripAdvisor and
Viator, as well as ourpartnerships, to really grow the
business, and I think that wasthe point that things really
really took off.
It was 2020 or 2021.
Post-pandemic, we came out, wehad these two assets and we were
just able to absorb so much ofthe post-pandemic bounce.

(10:47):
I think we grew something like200% the first year of the
pandemic.
It was like 200, then 150, then50.
And it was just year after yearafter year.
As a result of this, god, Ireally hesitate to use the word
synergy because it sounds so UScorporate, but that's kind of
what it was.
It was just the power of Viator,this single vertical
experiences of OTA combined withTripAdvisor and this, you know,

(11:10):
massive traffic asset, thisexclusive partnership, that gave
us and our operators access tohundreds of millions of
travelers that the competitionwould, you know, love to have
access to.
And it was a combination ofthese things, combined with the
partnerships, that really andamazing execution by the teams,
but that really that really sawus come out of the pandemic with
, with, with so much power.

(11:31):
So that's, that's been the storyover the last few years, and
then, I think, as time goes on,we see more and more the
advantage and the, the, thepower and the partnership of
TripAdvisor and Viator.
I think it's got to be one oftravel's most successful
partnerships.
And the thing we're looking atnext is how we take that even

(11:52):
further, how we can combine ourmarketing functions and our
product functions to really makesure these two products are
learning from each other as muchas they can.
And then the data part's reallyinteresting, where we just have
so much access to whattravelers are doing because of
what they're doing onTripAdvisor and really
leveraging that to serve them asbest, as best we can and and
you know make the most of thatcompetitive advantage for sure,

(12:13):
and I definitely want to getinto that because, as you
mentioned, with the competitivelandscape has increased with
companies like Get your Guideand Kluk, as you called out, and
Get your Guide for ourlisteners.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
I just heard from TauTau last week and now they're
having a chance to hear fromyou and most of our listeners
would have also heard from afriend of yours, rod Cuthbert,
the founder of Viator.
And one of the things I wantedjust to call out too is that
when I had spoken to SteveCoffer after they acquired
Viator, I was speaking to him atthe SCIF conference in New York
and one of the comments he madeis that we are still digesting

(12:43):
the acquisition of Viator at thetime because there had been
some challenges initially.
Just after the acquisitionhappened, there was a bit of a
data breach and there were someissues and all of a sudden, like
things went a little bit quietand then Viator has been this
building, building, building,not producing some of the
earnings reports and all of asudden, once they do, everyone's
kind of oh my god, this is thebest kept secret, secret within

(13:06):
Trip trip advisor, to the pointwhere there's been people
calling to spin off viator andgo public on its own and like so
unlock this value.
So it's, and and the reason Iwanted to highlight that to all
of our listeners as well isbecause the opening conversation
of season six with was withchris hemeter uh, one of the
biggest VCs in the industry, ofcourse and he highlighted in our

(13:27):
conversation that there's neverbeen a better time to be
investing in travel, and so whatI find really fascinating about
Viator being acquired for 200million now you guys are doing
over a billion in sales is that,and what the next five years?

Speaker 1 (13:38):
look like Quite a bit more than that.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
Yeah, it's amazing the growth and the potential.
But I want to keep on yourexperience, because one of the
things I discovered getting toknow you over the last year was
that we both went to the sameuniversity.
We were like I actually went toWestern, so you finished
Western and left.
We never met while you werethere.
But I think it's really coolthat you have that background
and experience.
So, as a Canadian that has thatbackground and experience, one

(14:05):
of the things I've often heardfrom other fellow Canadians that
go on to international successis that they actually have a
global view, and so the factthat you actually wanted to go
to Asia and then to London, likethere's a strong desire for
international travel and toreally know the world and to
have a global perspective I'mvery curious to know is that

(14:26):
part of your background,upbringing?
Is it just a natural instinctfor you?
But what?
Why did you gravitate to?
You know being in such a globalrole?
Because clearly you thrive onit.
So what do you think is behindsome of your success besides
hard work?

Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah, you know, I honestly I don't really know
where the travel bug came from.
I certainly didn't grow up withit.
I mean, the first flight I goton, I think I was maybe 12 or 13
.
And it was Thunder Bay, ontario.
So it's not like I was.
I was jet setting doing allthese amazing things.
I was, I don't know, maybe 16or 17 when I first left the
country and maybe it was thelack of that that got me so
interested in it.

(15:00):
But from from the moment I left,I it's not that I love Canada
and I'd be honored and delightedto live there again, but I just
sort of knew that I wouldprobably spend my life going
from place to place.
So it's really hard to say whatgot me there.
But once I was there I knew Ireally really wanted to do it.

(15:21):
So when I was living in Taiwan,I knew I was going back to
Toronto to do my postgraduate.
I didn living in Taiwan.
I knew I was going back toToronto to do my postgraduate.
I didn't even consider lookingfor an internship in Toronto.
I found one in London and then,once I was in London, there was
a lot going on in the Singaporeoffice, so I asked for the move
to Singapore and I got that,and then the business is moving
back to Boston.
At that time it was vacationrentals and that seemed like

(15:43):
another really interestingopportunity.
So, more than anything, I wouldsay it was almost that I didn't
have a plan.
I just sort of said yes, and Inever really had a destination
in mind.
I never thought I want to bethe VP of marketing, I want to
be the VP of comms, I want to behead of strategy.
I just thought I want to keepdoing interesting things and
that was such an easy thing tocome by at TripAdvisor in the

(16:03):
mid 2010s.
There was so much growth, we hadall these global offices and I
just I said yes to kind ofeverything that came my way.
That looked interesting, and Ididn't think too much about
where it was taking me, as longas I knew it was advancing my
thinking and my career and I wasgetting access to really
interesting people.
So I would say, probably morethan anything, it was just like

(16:26):
a strong sense of adventure andat the time I didn't have a
child, so it was.
It was quite easy, quite a biteasier to do then than it would
be now with a very particularsix year old until wherever I go
, yeah absolutely.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
It's interesting you mentioned that say yes to
everything, because it wasactually one of the themes of
our Vanessa, who I worked within Australia.
She's gone on to incrediblesuccess living in Dubai and last
time I saw her post on theweekend she was flying in a
private jet and commenting abouther vision board and if anyone
wanted to know like but sheliterally was her approach

(17:02):
post-pandemic was say yes toeverything.
Her approach post pandemic wassay yes to everything, and her
so.
I even think that thatmentality, which is very much a
growth mindset, is obviously keyto success, like finding
interesting things that you wantto do, you know, working hard
at them and showing results, andthen you keep getting better at
your craft.
So but but tell us a little bitso your role at Viator, tell us
a little bit about your functionin the business, because the
reason I want to highlight thatis because you know I've known

(17:23):
some of the CEOs at TripAdvisor,who've all been terrific, and I
know some of your quite a fewof your colleagues, of course
and everyone greatly respectsand admires you.
And the reason I say that isbecause you know Papine is now
the head of Viator, who's goingto be a great new leader for the
business as well, but he's, youknow, he's coming in from his
experience with bookingcom.
You're one of the people thathas come up in TripAdvisor

(17:43):
running Viator, and so we seeall this success and we see some
of the other executives onstage, but you're the one
driving the marketing campaignsand a lot of the initiatives.
That keeps the engine reallyrunning.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
Oh, I mean as much as I'd love to take credit for
everything you just said, Ireally really cannot.
There's a whole group of usprobably five or six of us,
who've grown up together andhave worked together for years,
and as much as I am runningmarketing now, we're all very
much in each other's businessand it really is like a true
partnership with a core group ofus who've been together for

(18:13):
quite some time.
So, thank you, it's a lovelything to say, but I cannot
single-handedly take credit forthat.
In terms of what the role is,it is, yeah, my team and I lead
marketing for Viator, so it'severything from what is the
value proposition to how do wesay that in words and images.
So what do we look like andwhat do we sound like, to the

(18:34):
channels we executed in.
So all of our distributionRetention is the part where
there's crossover between us andR&D, so that's probably the
handoff point.
We lead CRM and customer valuemanagement, but at that point,
that's where the partnershipreally sees us hand the customer
off to the team that runs thestorefront and then, in addition
to that, we have the functionsthat enable you to run a

(18:57):
marketing organization at globalscale and produce everything
you need for it, socommunications, analytics and
content.
So it's a large, global,incredibly talented team that I
feel very lucky to work with andsometimes I actually can't
believe anyone trusts me with it, but it's going very well so
far.
Great bunch of people and, as Isaid when we started, I just

(19:18):
kind of sometimes can't reallybelieve I'm here and I feel so
lucky to get to do what we doand to work with the people that
I do.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
Well, one thing you obviously highlighted and again
like this is you're absolutelyright about the team and the
people you bring together.
That and so rightly, obviously,to acknowledge everyone that
you've worked with for manyyears that have established this
strong team that keepsproducing these exceptional
results.
And I think one of the thingsyou know as a marketer, and
certainly from my experience, isthat if you have a great
product and especially a greatuser experience like the stars
have to align as well you can'tbe successful in marketing, or

(19:47):
at least for very long, if theproduct doesn't stand up.
People are having lousyexperiences and like it's never,
it's not sustainable, it's notgoing to work.
So you're absolutely right thatyou know the entire
organization needs to be.
You know you need to be firingon all cylinders for marketing
to be as uh, as powerful as itis.
So tell us a little bit aboutViator.
One of the things I always liketo ask travel companies is like

(20:09):
competitive advantages, whatare some of the things that are?
You know, your USPs, uniqueselling propositions.
That's truly unique aboutViator, and the reason I also
wanted to ask you that questionis because I've often over the
years used Viator as a site tocompare to with other companies
in terms of, you know, 24 hourcancellation or the customer

(20:30):
service commitment that you'reoffering the selection, like the
things that you call out askind of the core USPs for people
who are just trying tounderstand.
For example, my father in lawrecently was trying to book a
sumo experience in Japan on histrip.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
That is a wildly popular experience, by the way.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
Well, and in this instance he booked it.
And then he was like he wasnervous that he was it wasn't.
And he was like have you everheard this company called get
your guide?
And I was like, yeah, so I'mlike you should ask me, like
just ask me.
There's like, yes, you knowabout Viator, do you know?
Like so it's amazing how manytravelers are just not familiar
with OTAs and where they shouldbe buying these experiences.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat differentiates Viator

(21:10):
against a much more fiercecompetitive set.
I know you guys have beenaround longer, you have many
experiences globally, but whatare some of the attributes that
you, as a marketer for thatbrand, tend to focus on and how
you approach your marketing andmessaging?

Speaker 1 (21:24):
tend to kind of focus on and how you approach your
marketing and messaging.
I think it's really easy tolook at OTAs in any category and
say they're all a little bitsimilar and they're not that
differentiated.
But there actually are somepretty big differences.
Probably the biggest one or notprobably definitely the biggest
one is our catalog.
We have 400,000 experiences allover the world.
So you know, it's everythingfrom the kind of mass market
walking tours, hop on, hop off,to really niche stuff like

(21:48):
perfume making in Paris, to highadventure stuff like canyoning
and caving.
So it's, it really runs thegamut.
So we have everything that'sthe really kind of new niche
experiential stuff, all the waythrough to the stuff that
there's no way you would go know.
Go to paris and not go in theeiffel, go up the eiffel tower
or or take a sun river cruise.
So I'd say it's the breadth ofinventory is one like by quite a

(22:11):
margin we have more inventorythan anyone else in the market.
So vitor's catalog is reallyquite compelling, quite unique,
quite different, um, and it isprobably our biggest competitive
advantage.
The second thing I would say isthe TripAdvisor partnership.
So from a supply perspective, Imean what I talked about is
what I just talked about oncatalog is what's great for

(22:32):
travelers In terms of what'sgood for suppliers?
It's the partnership withTripAdvisor.
We're the exclusive partner toTripAdvisor.
We are able to distribute ourpartners on this absolutely vast
and beloved travel website.
That really expands theaudience that they can access
alongside our partnershipsprogram, which is also very
broad.
So the TripAdvisor partnershipfor our operators huge

(22:55):
competitive advantage, enormousbenefit of distributing through
Viator.
And then, in addition to that,on the TripAdvisor partnership,
there is the sort of like 360degree view of a traveler that
we have that others may not.
So we, you know, we probablyknow before others in the market
where a traveler is going, whattheir dates are, how long
they're going for, and thatallows us, or should allow us,

(23:16):
to really personalize and makehighly specific recommendations
in a truly competitivelyadvantaged way.
And then the third thing I'd sayis just market experience.
We've been in the US, We'vebeen leading in the US for such
a long time.
We have a really, really deepunderstanding built on a
foundation of, you know, 20years of experience in the US,

(23:37):
and that allows us to serve theAmerican consumer very, very
well.
And of course it's.
You know, diversification is athing.
It's not necessarily thatdifficult to launch in a
different market, but it is easyto underestimate the experience
and the muscle a company buildsafter that long leading in a
market, and that is somethingthat truly differentiates us.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
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Speaker 2 (25:47):
And now back to the show, one of the things I wanted
to understand with product.
So you are so critical to somany suppliers around the world.
So many companies rely onViator as their main source of
business, and so thoserelationships I know is so
important.
David King, who's a good friendof mine and a great colleague
of yours and friend of yours,I'm sure also, but who's based

(26:08):
in Chicago, he's obviously socritical to the supply chain and
bringing on new partners andgetting them on boarded onto the
platform, and so that's so tellus a little bit about.
As you mentioned, people arealways going to want to go to
the Eiffel tower, but there isalso this strong desire, with
concerns, but over tourism,about going to off the beaten
path destinations, and literallythat was lonely planets, usp

(26:29):
for all that time.
But the reality and I stilllaugh at this because you and I,
both being marketers, likepeople, love the idea of off a
beaten path destinations butonce it's in a Lonely Planet
guidebook, it's no longer offthe beaten path, it's literally
on the path and all of a suddenit's going to get overwhelmed,
and that's what often happens intourism.
So how do you, how do you, lookat bringing on new destinations

(26:49):
, especially as a marketer.
When your team is looking atnew destinations to expand to
around the world, how do youmake sure that you have a really
not only just comprehensive butreally compelling offerings,
and especially things that areunique.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
I think that's a really tough question.
I think the answer is probablywe let the traveler tell us what
they want, so we always ensurethat we're offering what
travelers want, and for us, thatis almost always a combination
of yes, the really uniqueproducts that get all the
attention, like the perfumemaking in paris, but it's also
the core stuff, like getting upthe eiffel tower and getting on
the sun river cruise.
So there's two ways really inhow we do this, and the biggest
one is that a lot of this stuffhappens organically at a scale

(27:32):
like ours.
It it, it comes togetherorganically because we built
ourselves that way.
We are an open marketplace, andif you are a guide or an
operator and you've got aproduct that meets our quality
and listing standards, we willlist you, we will put you on
Viator, we will put you on TripAdvisor, we will distribute you
through our partners and fromthere we let basic economic

(27:53):
principles of supply and demand,or capitalism or however you
want to look at it, we let it doits thing.
If you are a great product thatpeople want, it will move up,
sort, it will get more exposure,it will get more bookings and
it will attract competition andyou will start to see that
category pick up steam.
I think a really good example ofthat is food tours.
Food tours were growing andeveryone loved a food tour, but

(28:15):
around the mid 2010s they becamesuch a big thing it was, you
know.
There was interest in it andnearly all of our top
destinations.
We went from maybe two or threeproducts in a destination to 10
or 20 almost overnight, andthat you know that is that is
what you see happen.
The market tells you hey, thesefood tours are awesome.

(28:36):
People start listing their foodtours.
They start doing very well.
The market starts seeing thatthese things are doing well and
more and more products start tocrop up.
And now we're 10 years on fromthat and food tours for our last
10 years have been amongst ourfastest growing category.
So maybe that's a slightlyunsatisfying answer, but
honestly, capitalism solves fora lot of this and we have built

(29:04):
a marketplace that can respondto that.
However, we don't always justleave it to market forces.
We do do some thingsproactively.
So we look at our own data,which we have a lot of between
TripAdvisor and Viator, and wealso work, as most OTAs do, very
closely with Google.
So we look at what destinationsand categories are popping and
if we think there's somethinghappening in the market that we
don't have an answer for, wewill go out and proactively
build that supply.
And that is part of what Dave'steam does they go out and make

(29:27):
sure that if there's trendspopping up that aren't sort of
like market forces are notforcing them into the ecosystem,
we will go and find that demandand, yeah, from there again.
Even when it's proactive, wewill go and find that demand and
, yeah, from there again.
Even when it's proactive, we goout and we let the market do
its thing.
As reviews and greatexperiences pile in.
A product will earn moreexposure through great

(29:47):
performance, and the moretravelers it pleases, the more
attention it gets, and it's abit of a flywheel.

Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, no, it's fascinating, and this is where
someone like yourself, who hasaccess to that data, not only
you know you're obviouslylooking at Google search data,
but the data that you have onyour platform is just so
powerful to be able tounderstand what people are
searching for right.
It is a huge incumbentadvantage, especially in the age
of AI.
You've got a great brand andyou've got access to lots of
data and those things canobviously really propel you

(30:16):
forward to be able to customize,personalize.
And so the one thing I wantedjust to talk about as well,
given we were highlighting someof the emerging trends, as you
have called them out I wasactually going through your
travel trends report for 2025before our call and to
underscore your point about foodtourism, because that certainly

(30:37):
has been on the rise,especially post pandemic.
There's a question I definitelyhave for you there, but when we
think about food tourism, what Ifound really interesting is
that, on your top five bestrated experiences, chocolate
tours and cooking classes areright up there within the first
five.
And then things like crafts,like things that people like,

(30:59):
and then dance lessons, and likeone of the big trends that I've
certainly, um, post pandemic isthis idea of passion travel,
that people are traveling basedon their interests.
So people had that time tofigure out what they're going to
do if they're home alone, andand then yoga, various things,
and then they've gone back outto the world and they've sought
out these experiences.
So tell us, because what aresome of the biggest trends

(31:19):
you've been seeing and whatstood out to you from that
report?
Because there are certainthings where I'm like, of course
, japan and then, of course,scandinavia, like there's
certain destinations, butthere's specific things in there
that I'm just like, oh, that'sreally interesting, that Like
the concerts, the fact that youguys sell all these Christmas
concerts, and so tell us alittle bit of some of the trends

(31:39):
that you are paying attentionto, given what information you
have access to.

Speaker 1 (31:44):
There are a couple of trends that just dominate over
the years.
There's two, exactly two, twotrends that have dominated over
the years.
The first is that the bread andbutter of this category, as
much as we say all thisexperiential stuff, is growing
so so, so quickly.
It is, but the bread and butterof this category is the quite
traditional tours and activities.

(32:05):
Tourism so famous things to doin famous places will always
maybe I shouldn't say always,but at least for now dominates
as absolutely the biggest partof the category and the thing
that people want most.
The things that are growingfastest are really quite
different and that's what you'rereferring to.
So passion tourism, I think, isa great way to put it, but the

(32:25):
very, very sort of like personalexperiential things cooking
classes, dance classes, lessons,crafts, art all of these things
are the categories that aregrowing the fastest and have
been growing the fastest forprobably the last four or five
years.
And I think the clearest onecoming out of the pandemic is
outdoor experiences.
So in 20, I can't remember whatyear it was now 2020 and 2021,

(32:47):
we couldn't Viator's oldbusiness, our old business, our,
you know, pre-pandemic we weresending Americans to Europe.
Americans could not go toEurope in the year 2021.
So they started doing differentthings and they could stay in
America, but they couldn't goinside.
Everyone was doing thingsoutside, and so what we found
that has really hung on isAmericans are traveling more

(33:09):
around America now than they didpre-pandemic.
And some of our fastest growingtop rated categories and
destinations are things thatallow you to get outside.
So we see a lot of growth indestinations like Alaska and
Utah, but beyond that, we alsosee growth in the categories
that those destinations servereally well.
So hiking, biking, walking,anything that gets you into the

(33:31):
great outdoors and then, on topof that, they are also our top
rated category.
So, in general, experiences arealready very highly rated.
Average score is about 4.6 outof 5.
But when we look at thesecategories, they're all getting
like 4.85, 4.9 out of 5.
So people are choosing theseexperiences.
They're going to destinationswhere they can do it and they

(33:51):
are having a really, reallygreat time and delivering
absolutely rave reviews.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
One of the things that you highlight there is that
during the pandemic, people'sbehavior shifted.
They were stuck at home andthey started exploring their own
backyard.
But the part that I findfascinating is that people
continue to travel.
They find new destinations andthey find interesting new things
to do.
One of the things I'm keen toknow from your perspective is
what sources you pay attentionto outside of travel, because I
often find that some of the mostvaluable information is not
looking at what our competitorsare doing, but it's looking at

(34:23):
geopolitics and understandinginterest rates and pressures on
consumers.
So what are some of the otherthings that you gravitate to?
Leading a successful company toensure that it is a durable
space and that people will stillcontinue to travel or choose
Viator despite other concernsthey might have?

Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah, I think it's really important.
When you're leading a largeteam and you're leading a large
revenue stream, you can't onlybe looking inward.
You need to understand theenvironment that you exist in
Like really important to belooking.
My job as a VP is to be lookingtwo years down the road, not
two weeks down the road.
So I wake up every morning andI listen to five or six podcasts

(35:01):
and I make sure that I'mgetting a really broad view of
international and American newsand really understanding what's
happening in the world with youknow, like, how might this
impact the source markets thatwe look at expanding into?

(35:22):
How might we look at thesethings as we consider
diversification?
Is there like an FX issuecoming up?
All kinds of things anyway.
So I really really reallyprioritize understanding what's
going on in the world, becausetravel is just so highly exposed
to the macro.
You need to know howcomfortable consumers are.

(35:42):
You need to know whatdestinations they may not be
going to.
You need to understand what'shappening in search and is
Google catching up to open AI interms of LLM experiences?
So incredibly important to payattention to the world around
you and I think the more senioryou get, the more important that
gets and, as I said, it is myjob to look two years out, it's
probably the director's job tolook one year out and it's the

(36:04):
team's to be looking two weeks,three weeks, four weeks out.
So everyone are doingeverything you can to understand
the environment you'reoperating in so you can build a
business that can withstandwhichever headwinds might be
coming your way.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
For sure, and to make that point obviously, just to
add to that, rather is that oneof the big developments is
Airbnb, reintroducingexperiences.
And so you have to think andI'm sure you guys have had these
same conversations or're in asimilar viewpoint is the fact
that you know, when you look atthe pressures of a company like
Airbnb, they are constantlylooking for growth and they're

(36:45):
under pressure in theaccommodation sector, given some
of the concerns aboutover-tourism and some of the
pushback they're getting, andthey can see the results of
other companies like Viator inthis space and how experiences,
and obviously they struggledwith their first iteration.
And so and I have some views onthat and I'm keen to get your
take as much as you can say,because obviously I know they're
a competitor.
But at the same time, I askedTao Tao this question because I

(37:07):
know our listeners.
I'm always being mindful of whatour listeners, because they'll
text me afterwards to say youdidn't ask Laura about Airbnb
and so I definitely need to askyou about it for our listeners.
But I'm also genuinely curiousto get your take on it, because
what I said to Tao Tao, as ourlisteners heard, is that when
another my background in, liketouring and river cruise and
like if another player entersthe market and start saturating

(37:29):
the airwaves with advertising,it lifts the category, like it
expands the category and I'veseen some of the great new
Airbnb commercials and some ofthe branding they're doing and
although they struggled thefirst time, they're also very
committed to making thissuccessful in their second pass
at interesting experiences.
What is your take on themreentering this space?

Speaker 1 (37:47):
I think you can look at Airbnb and Google in similar
ways.
So both have made big plays atexperiences beginning about a
decade ago and both, just likethe OTAs, have really struggled
to find their perfect footing.
So I think what we take fromthis is yes, there is so much
opportunity in this category,but it is not a foregone
conclusion that just because youare big and successful and you

(38:09):
have funding, you will succeed.
Airbnb has changed their valueproposition a couple of times,
google has changed their valueproposition a couple of times,
and what you conclude from thatis there is a lot of opportunity
.
It is so worthwhile going after, but it's also just not that
easy.

(38:29):
So I think what I would sayabout Airbnb is, yes, it points
to the challenges of thecategory.
It also points to theopportunity of the category.
This is, you know, like a $350billion category.
There is room for a lot ofdifferent value propositions in
here, and that value propositionis different.
It's very unique.
It's very niche.
Where we sit is we are a productor we are a storefront that, if
you are going anywhere in theworld, you can do the things

(38:51):
that you absolutely would haveon your list.
So if you are, I suppose theexample I keep pointing to is
Paris.
If you are going to Paris forthe first time, there is no way
you are not going up the EiffelTower, there is no way you're
not taking a Sun River cruise.
We will offer you that and wewill also offer you the niche
experiences that are similar to,I'm sure, the conversations
you've had recently, but we willoffer the dessert-making
classes and the perfume-makingclasses, making classes and the

(39:13):
perfume making classes.
So it's kind of the fullexperience that we offer, which
goes back to our truecompetitive advantage of catalog
.
No matter who you are or whereyou're going, we have the
greatest breadth of selectionand we can really serve any trip
.
So that's, I think, what setsus apart.
But what I would say aboutplayers like Google and Airbnb

(39:35):
entering the category is yeah,it is.
It points to what is such avast opportunity and it also
points to what is such a vastchallenge and you also make a
very good point about thiscategory is still like four out
of every $5 on experiencesdoesn't touch the internet yet
and having entrants like thiswho are advertising, reminding
people that you can come onlineto book these things and there's

(39:57):
a single place to search andsort and book.
Competition is not all bad.
Bringing attention to thecategory is a very, very good
thing, especially when you havethe confidence that Vitor has,
which is that we know we offer agreat solution and as more
travelers come online, we feelpretty good about our ability to
serve them.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Yeah, what's really interesting about what you say
there is like operations andproduct, which are obviously two
critical aspects to Viator interms of the platform, but also
the operators you work with, therelationships and one of the
things I just call out to ourlisteners, one of the things
that I have spoken about andwhen I've talked on stage about
Airbnb experiences or been askedabout it you know one of the
big challenges when you look ata company like them entering

(40:39):
this space with the success theyhad with hosts as a concept
within accommodation that workedperfectly.
You had a host or super hostthat would, you know, manage one
or multiple properties and itdoesn't apply.
That model is not easilyreplicated in travel because
it's difficult to scale.
So it's one thing to havepeople stay on your couch or,
you know, in your spare room,but it's a very different thing

(41:00):
to take someone to do swordmaking in Tokyo, because that
sword maker may only beavailable twice a week and can
only take eight people and it'slike that.
So there's also the frustrationand disappointment you and I
both know from working in travelfor many years.
It's about your ability toscale and be profitable and be
able to have consistency thatthere's 12 tours running every

(41:21):
day and you can pick the timethat works for you and there's a
consistent experience with thedelivery of each of those, and
that's what consumers arelooking for.
So that's one thing Idefinitely see as a big
challenge for any of thosetechnology companies entering
the space that are likeliterally saying we're a
technology company, not a travelcompany.
It's like, well, you kind ofneed to understand hospitality
and all the different aspects ofyeah, so one one other thing I

(41:43):
want to ask you on the sametopic is AI, and I'm not I'm not
just throwing out AI, because,of course, yes, we need to talk
about it, but the reason Iwanted to bring it up, as it
relates to what we're discussingnow, is because one of the
biggest disruptions that Icertainly see and I'm sure you
have some strong views on thisas well is that the consumer
journey is changing by virtue ofAI.
So that whole concept of peopledoing search, like Google

(42:05):
results, going to websites andthen doing their research and
then booking, even though, asyou said, only $4 to $5 are
spent online, which is a wholeother thing for connectivity but
at the same time, consumers arenow using open AI or chat, gpt
or any number of thesegenerative AI platforms to do
research.
The numbers are astounding,which is why we're doing our AI
summit to really understand howconsumer behavior is now

(42:28):
changing in the face of AI.
And I see that theintermediaries are more likely
to be disrupted than theoperators Because, at the end of
the day, you still need to findthat operator or go up the
Eiffel Tower.
That experience at the end ofthe line is still the same how
you found out about it, how youlearned more about it, how you
booked it.
That whole consumer journey isdefinitely going to change.

(42:49):
So, viator being a pipe, if youwill, for all of this amazing
400,000 tours, that's a hugecompetitive advantage that you
have and it's part of what I'dsay is the moat around Viator,
that you have all that productso you can make it available
through any means for consumersto find it, discover and book.
But one of the things I do seeis like with TripAdvisor people
used to do their research, butpeople are still gonna validate

(43:11):
the hotels.
They're still gonna validate.
They want reviews from otherpeople to give them the
confidence that this is going tobe a great experience.
But very keen to know what yourview is.
With AI coming in so strongly,how do you think that's changing
the user journey?
And, I guess, how are youfactoring that into how you and
your team are approaching thisnew technology?

Speaker 1 (43:31):
We think about it all day, every day.
I mean it's no surprise thatthe travel industry is like very
much in bed with GoogleTravelers, by and large, no
matter what, the trip willalmost always touch Google at
some point.
So almost all of us marketheavily on Google and we've all
been talking about the shift toAI surfaces on Google.
So AI is an AI mode, as well aschat, GPT, perplexity et al.

(43:54):
Over the last year or so.
What is actually reallysurprising is it is not changing
as quickly as you think itwould.
And when I think about this, Ithink about two parts of the
travel journey.
So I think about upper funneland research, and then I think
about lower funnel andconversion.
Upper funnel and researchabsolutely.
Aios are showing up.
They're looking on AI surfaces,they're having long

(44:15):
conversations, they're gettingtheir research done.
Up.
They're looking on AI surfaces,they're having long
conversations, they're gettingtheir research done and their
needs met in ways that are justso much better than the old 10
blue links.
I actually you know you lookback on that now is only a year
ago, but I actually can'tbelieve that as consumers, we
all accepted that experience foras long as we did.
It's just really not good, sothat that stuff is very much
shifting to AIOs, to AI servicesnow, and what we find, though,

(44:39):
is that as much as some of thatdemand is being absorbed into
AIOs and in every industry,probably there's going to be
pressure on traffic there.
When that traffic lands on yoursite, they convert hard and
fast, they are ready to bookbecause their questions have
been answered so much betterthan they would have been
answered by surfing aroundthrough 110 different links as

(44:59):
they would have done a year ago.
So, yeah, there's probablygoing to be pressure on traffic
there, but there's a trade-offin that your consumer now, when
they're reading that they get toyou, they are so highly
educated and they are ready tobook.
So that's one part of it.
The second part is where we seedemand with really clear and
commercial intent.
That demand is still flowingunobstructed into SEM, and it's

(45:21):
SEM being paid links.
It's not really hard to imaginewhy.
I mean this is like Google'sbread and butter Hundreds of
billions of dollars.
It's like the GDP of ourmedium-sized country goes
through these ads, and they areprobably going to protect that
with their life.
And so, where demand is clearand commercial and it's very low

(45:43):
funnel and people are ready toconvert.
We see that coming straightthrough on SEM, kind of just as
it always did, and that comesthrough in our earnings.
So where the rest of the worldis actually quite pressured on
consumer sentiment and consumerspend, you see that in earnings
on Target, Starbucks, McDonald's, whatever it is Growth year
over year it's quite pressuredfor those categories.

(46:06):
For experiences, it's stillgrowing quite quickly.
We were double digits on itemslast quarter.
We are still seeing that demand.
So I think we see two things.
One is that demand for thiscategory is extremely durable
and resilient and even in timesof economic headwinds people
will still choose to spend hereand Google is not getting in the
way of that right now.
All of that demand is stillcoming through on SEM, which is

(46:29):
how travelers are quitecomfortable shopping for
experiences.
Will it always be that way?
I mean, it's hard to say.
I'm guessing absolutely not,but probably what will happen is
that there is a lot ofcommercial demand that comes
through search and while itmight not look the a little and

(46:54):
things might look quitedifferent, but it's easy to
assume that search will continueto be an important part of the
travel experience going forwardand we really do obsess over
this and we are scenarioplanning and have 10 or 12
different outcomes in mind andwe monitor the signal to see
which way it's going.
So far it's still looking quitestrong, but we will be as ready
as we can be for whatever comesnext.

(47:15):
And it's an incredibly quitestrong, but we will be as ready
as we can be for whatever comesnext and it's an incredibly
interesting time to be inmarketing.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2 (49:42):
And now back to the show.
When it comes to Viator andsome of the other technology and
some of the advancements you'remaking, I'd love if you
wouldn't mind sharing us kind ofwhat's on your roadmap in the
next six to 12 months.
And I know you're a publiclytraded company, so I know you
need to be mindful of and I'mnot asking for any forward
projections in terms of what youcan share about what's coming
up with some of the leveraging,some of the technology, because,

(50:05):
as you highlighted, it's neverbeen more exciting to be a
marketer giving the tools andtechnology we have.
You and I obviously have agreat friend in common named
Brendan Bliss, who runsPropellic.
He's a great supporter of ourpodcast and has been really
since the beginning, and he's agreat friend as well, and him
and I have terrificconversations, as you do with
him, about what's the state.
He's literally transformed hisbusiness from an SEO agency into

(50:28):
an AI optimization agency inquick succession.
He's having great success andfull credit to him because he's
helping companies navigate.
This exact challenge is thatyour SEO traffic has fallen off.
And how do you optimize yourdiscovery and exposure for Gen I
, gen ai platforms?
And this is this is a businessunto itself now and it's really
I couldn't agree with you more.
It's so exciting.

(50:48):
So, given all of these shifts,what are some of the things you
guys are looking to build out onthe platform?
What are some of the things wecan look forward to via tour
rolling out over the next six to12 months?

Speaker 1 (50:59):
yeah, I think I mean the most exciting innovation is
the value proposition in and ofitself.
As we talked about earlier, $4to $5 in this category is still
spent offline, which is crazy inthe year 2025.
So the real innovation istaking a highly fragmented
shopping experience, in which aconsumer couldn't or can't

(51:20):
really get a handle on what's onoffer in their destination, and
giving them a clear read viaTor, being that clear read with
a really simple path to bookingthat experience.
So that probably is the mostexciting thing that we're doing,
which is, you know, I'mbasically saying the whole
business, but it's like it'sgetting the catalog right and
making it as accessible andbookable as possible.

(51:41):
Whether you're like goingkayaking down the Colorado River
, taking a Harry Potter walkingtour in London, whatever it may
be, making sure that you canfind what you want.
You know that it's right foryou, it's right for your
destination, we can book itreally quickly.
The R&D work, or the marketingwork that is underneath all of
that is, dare I say, incrediblyunsexy, because it's about
taking that very uh likeinnovative value proposition and

(52:07):
making it simple, and simple ispretty unsexy.
So this is work that's likeabout smoothing out the shopping
process.
It's about having flexibletraveler policies without
removing friction from thebooking flow, getting clear on
logistics, getting clear oncancellation policies.
It's not like one big swing.
The big swing is taking thishighly fragmented shopping
experience and making itaccessible.

(52:28):
And then it's all these littlethings that are underneath it
that really are as I say.
I mean, they are kind of unsexy, and I think the lesson there
is that piling up you know we'rereaching a point of maturity
here with this business butpiling up these small
incremental wins and having areal focus on solving consumer
problems that range in size fromsmall to medium, it can be

(52:50):
extremely powerful.
And if you listen to ourearnings polls recently, you'll
hear Matt and Mike talk aboutthe conversion wins that we've
had, and there's nothing morepowerful than that.
Conversion is your consumertelling you you've met my needs.
Thank you very much.
And all of these small thingsare contributing to that.
So the big swing is the valueproposition.
And then there's a hundredsmall projects between our

(53:11):
marketing team and our R&D teamthat are all aiming at one thing
, which is take problems out ofthe flow, and they're doing that
very well.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
Well, one thing I think you guys would have a
clear incumbent strength in ismatchmaking, given not only the
trip advisor but just Viator onits own, even the fact that you
know what people have bookedbefore and you can serve up
recommendations to him, and thistrue idea of personalized one
to one messaging that you and Ihave kind of grown up in the
industry, attempting to reachthat holy grail where you can
actually speak to someonedirectly, rather than sending
out a generic newsletter to sayhere's a bunch of stuff that we

(53:38):
think a few 100,000 people mightbe interested in learning about
, as opposed to having somethingthat's truly personalized.
Something else you said that'salso really insightful and I
just wanted to make sure all ofour listeners took that away was
the fact that when a gen AItraffic gets to your site or
gets to reach your business,they're going to, they're ready
to convert, they've done theirresearch and travel AI One of
our partners as well, travelAIcom John.

(54:05):
John Leotia has been on ourpodcast.
He continually posts onLinkedIn and he's willing to
share this information despitethe fact in many ways he'd
rather just keep it to himselfand benefit from this knowledge,
but he's been open aboutsharing it because he wants to
see if this is other people'sexperience as well that we're
seeing a dramatically higherconversion rate.
So you've kind of got this thingwhere new customers are coming
to you knowing exactly what theywant to buy and you also have
existing customers that you knowa lot about and can make
recommendations.

(54:25):
So I'm genuinely curious whenyou look at that matching
problem, because this is one ofthe things to bring up Airbnb
again with Brian Chesky.
One of the things for sure Itotally agree with him on is
that we don't have a searchproblem, we have a matching
problem, and so the idea oftrying to match people's
interest to specific travelopportunities.
So just generally curious,given you're such a smart,

(54:47):
clever and experienced marketer,I'd love to hear your thoughts
on this challenge that we havetoday and how companies can
start to realize it and whatmaybe you guys are doing there
to better match offers toconsumer interest.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
It's an absolutely massive challenge and it exists
both offsite and onsite.
So offsite, I think we'reactually getting quite strong at
that and a lot of that is downto how quickly ad tech has
progressed in the last few years.
So advertising on Meta a fewyears ago I mean it wasn't great
.
The returns were pretty toughto swallow, but the targeting is
getting much better, thetooling you can put against that

(55:21):
to speak to consumers on aone-to-one basis rather than a
one-to-one million, and you cando it in real time.
I mean you can change, you canrespond to a traveler behavior
and serve them up a differentimage, a different value
proposition and a different callto action.
It's really come a long way andwe see that in our numbers.
So off-site, between ourcapabilities and just how good

(55:44):
ad tech is getting, we're makinga lot of progress there.
On-site, we're also making alot of progress.
That is where it gets prettytricky.
400, competitive advantage,which is combining TripAdvisor
and Viator data to have thisreal 360 view of the traveler.
We are actively building thatout now and trying to figure out

(56:14):
how we can better predict andserve what they're going to do
next in a way that others in thecategory might not be able to
because they don't have thebenefit of being a part of a
multivertical OTA with moreinformation on the traveler.
So that's the kind of way thatwe're looking at matching there
is, obviously, once you'reinside the Viator environment,

(56:36):
we can take stuff to serve youreally well.
But we have this hugecompetitive advantage in
TripAdvisor data, which tells usmore about a traveler than
others might know, and we shouldbe able to personalize and
serve and convert quicker andfaster than others.
And we are only just scratchingthe surface of that and that's
something we're pretty excitedabout.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
That is really exciting and this certainly
highlights just how muchdisruption and that's why it's
definitely an exciting time forus to be in a space and for our
listeners to be solving some ofthe latest challenges with
technology and marketing andmessaging and coming up with
really innovative solutions.
And I think most organizationsnow Bookingcom being a great

(57:16):
example with Glenn Fogle veryfocused on AI because they're a
technology business and they canbe disrupted by any number of
startups, especially ones thatcan compete in the user journey,
and that's very much opencompetition now.
So, one of the things, if welook forward, I know some
companies have their 2030 view,like Intrepid and others and
some of our partners, and youguys have, as you mentioned,

(57:37):
you're always very forwardlooking at least kind of two
years out.
Give us some guidance of whereyou think what the industry will
look like in the next few years, and what I mean by that is
obviously it's one of thosethings.
I know the old cliche sayingthat you're very familiar as
well.
Like people underestimatewhat's going to happen, they
overestimate in the short termand underestimate the long term
and and certainly there's alwaysthese things that like as much

(57:58):
as we have these innovations,human behavior.
Will you know, people willstill want to go to r and New
York and Paris, right, that'sjust like yeah.
But again, here's a fascinatingstat that, like, in 10 years,
80% of homes may have humanoidrobots in them.
Like, so it's like what?
What does that?
What does that mean for ourlivelihood?
So, like, things are going tochange as companies like Tesla

(58:18):
rolled them out and you know youcan.
They're now available in Chinafor 8,000 versus 30,000.
And so I, you know there's somany things that are very
difficult to predict thatcertainly could play a role.
But what are some of the thingsthat you're paying attention to
or thinking about about how theindustry will evolve in the
next few years?

Speaker 1 (58:35):
let's say, yeah, I think in the nearer term,
something we're probably allcoming to terms with is that the
industry and the experiencescategory is not moving online
organically as quickly as wethought.
So we're probably going to needto take some steps to move that
along.
And maybe part of this is thatwe've all been looking at the
SAM the serviceable, addressablemarket as the whole thing as

(58:55):
saying, like this 300 and someodd billion dollar category, we
should be able to access all ofthat process, all of that.
But I think we took a reallysort of tech company heavy view
to that, assuming that if wemade the booking process simple,
travelers would come online.
And I think kind of somethingwe all forgot about is that and
there's hubris here from thetech companies we all sort of

(59:16):
forgot that travelers orconsumers are not always solving
for simplicity.
Sometimes other things are moreimportant.
Like we don't all use Instacartbecause sometimes we want to
make sure the avocado is not ashard as a brick before we buy it
and even though it would be somuch easier to get it delivered.
There is something else you'reoptimizing for, and so I think
part of it is that we assumedevery dollar could be brought

(59:36):
online.
I would suggest, now thatthere's some spontaneity that
travelers really want to retain,or some flexibility.
You want to work around yourcranky toddler, you need to
account for a hangover.
You don't want to be scheduledup to your eyeballs when you go
on vacation.
You want to leave some room forflexibility.
So I think we probably need toaccept that the whole thing's
not going to come online andit's not coming online as

(59:56):
quickly as we thought it would.
There's a lot of growth it'smoving pretty quickly, but we
probably need to betterunderstand what happens in a
destination and to startdisintermediating some of those
behaviors and doing what we canto bring them online.
Otas are fighting OTAs rightnow and there's a whole huge
world of offline bookings thatwe need to better understand and

(01:00:18):
figure out how to better serve.
I do truly believe there's achunk of them we'll never access
, but $4 to $5 are still spentoffline and I think we've got to
look outside the growing poolof OTAs and start to figure out
how to make that organic processwell, I guess, make it
non-organic, how to make thatprocess move a little bit faster
.
So I think there's got to bemore done on the in-destination

(01:00:40):
traveler and figuring out whatis going to drive people from
offline to online and probablystop assuming that it's all
going to happen organically.
I think that that's the nearterm, one Medium term, I guess,
probably not specific toexperiences, but like you see at
the conferences now, people aretalking a lot more about India
as the next big market than theyare talking about China.

(01:01:00):
We all spent the last 20 yearstalking about China, but India
is just such a fascinatingmarket Inbound, they have really
supportive travel policies.
It's an incredible country andit's getting progressively
easier to move around, so Ithink we'll start to see that as
a much more popular destination.
But more interesting isoutbound.
You've got a really fastgrowing middle class with money

(01:01:21):
to spend again, reallysupportive policies on travel
and outbound, on moving peoplearound.
And I think it's going to be amarket we all obsess over and
try to figure out, and probablya lot of us will not do it very
well because we all knowAmerican companies are not great
at internationalization.
But I think that'll be.
It already is.
I think that's going to be thebig thing that we're all talking

(01:01:41):
about at conferences from nowuntil I don't know, let's say,
2035.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
And it'll be interesting to see who does
really well at it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
For sure.
No-transcript, because I gotanother question I want to ask
you, but I want to understandthat first.

(01:02:09):
So what percentage of travelersare booking in destination
versus booking in advance oftheir trip?

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
It's growing.
So I mean we've got selectionbias because we've got like, by
nature, people who use Viatorare planners.
The in-destination group isgrowing very, very quickly.
I don't know the numbersoffhand, but it's a large and
growing number.
The majority are planning quitefar in advance and the degree
to which they plan in advancereally is very closely
correlated to how far they'regoing and how much they're

(01:02:36):
spending.
So Americans traveling withinthe US typically book two or
three weeks in advance.
Americans traveling to Europetypically book 30 to 40 days in
advance and beyond that they'rebooking like two, three months
in advance.
So very closely correlated towhat they're spending and how
far they're going.
And the in-destination group islarge and growing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
Interesting and obviously I'll have a look to,
because one of the things I'veseen you guys do quite effective
marketing in destination, likewhen I was in London.
You guys have people on thestreet promoting selling Viator
tickets and like it's.
So it's a real clever waybecause so many people are in
London and they're trying todecide what they're going to do.
They ask their concierge orthey happen to see the hop on,
hop off buses and so obviouslyyou want to know people in
destination can also book withViator.

(01:03:16):
You don't have to have bookedbefore you traveled.
But the reason I wanted to askthis specific question because
we can make this kind of thelast big point we discuss and
then I've got a few rapid firequestions for you that I'm also
keen to ask and finish off onbut I think this is a really
interesting topic for all of ourlisteners.
Thinking about where they cangrow their businesses in 2025

(01:03:37):
and beyond, or 2026 and beyondnow really is that when you look
at destinations you mentionedIndia One of the other ones that
stands out to me is Africa.
We had a gentleman on our show,charles Shima, who runs a
company called Torafik reallyfascinating guy.
He's Rwandan, canadian and hiswhole business model is based on
the idea that people are goingto start to feel more

(01:03:58):
comfortable traveling to Africaas independent travelers and
booking experiences.
Rwanda is one of thosedestinations you would not today
, as a with someone with alittle experience or knowledge,
fly into with the hopes oftrying to figure it out as you
go.
You'll do that to Europebecause you know you're going to
find a place to roam, like it'sset up, the infrastructure's in
place, so I'd love to hear yourtake on that.
So you mentioned India, asopposed to cause.

(01:04:19):
China obviously is a hugeoutbound market that still
hasn't fully come back.
This is where, like, oh, itexcites me so much when you
think about all these differentmoving factors.
So, yeah, so in terms of indestination booking experiences,
where do you see?
So India and potentially Africa, at least for Africa is a
really interesting one.

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
I'll send it to you after this.
I just listened to a podcast onthis the other day from
Bloomberg on the luxury marketand how quickly it's growing in
Africa, and the argument they'remaking is that it's growing
incredibly rapidly, but this isa segment that's paying like
$20,000, $30,000 a night, and Ithink it's making the point that
you just made, which is thatthe reason this is happening is
because the infrastructure isn'tthere yet.
So it's these huge brands thatare going in and effectively

(01:05:02):
building the tourism industrythere and once that's set up and
these are companies that havethe money to build the
infrastructure that's not inexistence yet once that's set up
, we'll then start to seemid-range, budget-range
travelers going.
But I'll send it to you.
It's really interesting and itdoes seem like that's the way
it's going.
There's a huge spike ininterest for luxury travel in
Africa and that will then giverise to mid-range budget range

(01:05:26):
and probably in the next five or10 years we'll start to see
more happening there andprobably people coming down from
$10,000, $20,000 a night tojust the average traveler and
Africa becomes one of the nextbig destinations.

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
For sure, and there's one company called Cloud
Safaris that we've had on ourpodcast as well, and this is
where I find it so fascinating.
We have large organizations andstartups and learning from each
other and shaping the future ofour industry, where they're
kind of betting on the fact thatmore people also will be
comfortable just booking directwith suppliers in Africa, as
opposed to it just being adestination for ultra high net

(01:06:02):
worth individuals that go andstay at these incredible game
lodges like and so there is amarket there, but I'm excited to
see the independent travelerbreak out in places like india
and in africa.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
So, anyway, it'll happen like I think.
I remember going to vietnamwhen I was in my early 20s, my
parents being amazed like tothem, yeah, because of when they
grew up they could not haveever imagined ever going to
Vietnam.
And there I was going, bookingit on my own, with my
22-year-old best friend, havingthe time of our lives.
It just takes a bit of time forthese economies to become

(01:06:35):
accessible to the averagetraveler, and maybe we're 10 or
15 years off from that in Africa.
But the same way, my parentswere totally blown away when I
was going to Vietnam.
Maybe my daughter, nina, willbe heading off to Namibia when
she's 25.
And I'll be completely amazedby it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
Or Iraq or Iran for example like those are like you
know that because I was recentlygoing to do a trip to Iraq and
the operator, like, was assuringme of like the safety and other
guests that have gone, and Icouldn't believe how much travel
there actually is to Iraqalready, that you don't even
hear about that, like you know.
But so some of those intrepidtravelers, you're absolutely
spot on.
I couldn't agree more withThailand, vietnam, the whole

(01:07:12):
Southeast Asia.
20 years ago was a completelydifferent experience and having
gone back more recently, you cansee it's just, you know, it's,
it's.
The prices are comparable tomost, um, you know typical
popular destinations and youknow, for me, then, I gravitate
to places like Colombia, whichare, I see, as a destination
that you know, look, likeThailand did 20 years ago, where
, like it's, the infrastructureis more or less in place, the

(01:07:33):
people are lovely, the costs areso reasonable, like, so, so.
On this, this is actually likeliterally the very first rapid
fire question I had for you,which is, laurel, based on all
your experience and exposure,personal travel, and, you know,
seeing all the data, what do youthink is actually the most
underrated travel destination?

Speaker 1 (01:07:53):
Can I give you overrated instead?

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
Perfect, give me both .

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
Yeah, exactly, I'll give you overrated and I feel
like this is super controversialand I'm going to offend a lot
of people.
I hate going to New York.
I think I could love livingthere, but I find the intensity
of it so exhausting and I amalways so happy to leave when I
go, so that would be myoverrated Again.
Could live there, but as atraveler to New York I find it
tough.

Speaker 2 (01:08:20):
So I genuinely do love New York and so I'll
balance it out for, uh, ourlisteners, because I do love new
york.
But the interesting thing isnew york holding up as one of
like.
Despite tourism to the us beingdown from international
destinations, given some ofthese geopolitical factors, new
york has been holding up.
It was literally looking atsome of the data.
It was the only us city thatwas still had growth figures.
So the fact, as far as beingoverrated, like like, people

(01:08:42):
still want to go.

Speaker 1 (01:08:43):
They want to go to New York.
You can't, you can't help butmarvel at it.
It's amazing, but my God, Ijust want to nap for four days
and I get back from New York.

Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
Fair enough.

Speaker 1 (01:08:54):
All right.

Speaker 2 (01:08:54):
So underrated.
What's, what's, what's belowthe radar that you're going to
say right now and all of asudden, um, easy jets going to
open up a direct flight and uh,and totally.

Speaker 1 (01:09:07):
Oh, do you know what?
I don't think I have a goodanswer to underrated.
Can I go back to you Of?

Speaker 2 (01:09:10):
course you can.
Yeah, so my underrated isdefinitely Columbia.
Like it was.
Like you know, I still hearpeople like because of the
perception of a destination.
To your point about Vietnam,people still identify like FARC
guerrillas and narcos and it'slike I see it hanging over the
heads of the people that promoteColumbia as a destination that
people are like the first thingis it safe?
Isn't it like where all thecocaine comes from?

(01:09:30):
Like it's just like.
And literally I had been toevery country in South America
almost with exception ofColumbia, and I finally got to
Columbia I was like, oh my God,I've been missing out, so that
for me, is underrated.

Speaker 1 (01:09:41):
Well, I'm very glad to hear that because I'm
thinking about going next year.

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
Perfect.
I've got some suggestions foryou, so we'll not only will we
share some things with eachother, we'll also make sure all
of our listeners, the articlesyou share with me and some of
the places that you can find outmore about Viator's research.
I'll be sharing that at the endof the episode, but I've got a
couple more rapid fire questionsand then we'll close off for
our listeners.
But I've been so enjoying thisconversation.
So the next rapid fire questionwhat's the one item you would

(01:10:05):
never travel without and this isnot I've obviously your
daughter whenever you can, butlike, let's go business travel.
So you're in London right now.
What's the one item when youwere going out the door that you
would not leave without?

Speaker 1 (01:10:17):
The sound of snoring makes me incandescent with rage.
So if I'm taking taking anovernight flight, I have a sleep
mask that has little speakersin it, that like lie over my
ears because no one wants tosleep with airpods in, that lie
over my ears and I put onbackground noise, like a river
or a stream or a babbling,whatever it is, so that I cannot
hear 20 people around mesnoring.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
That's a good tip can't live without it.
Cannot live without it yep,okay, good live without it?
Yep, okay, good, good tip andtotally unique favorite travel
app, like, besides Viator oranything that's within your you
know current remit.
What else do you use whenyou're traveling?
What's a handy tool or an appthat you love?

Speaker 1 (01:10:55):
I won't be super cringe and say TripAdvisor.
I will say I'll say Airbnb,mostly because nothing.
There are a few things in lifethat give me more joy than being
able to do laundry on holiday.

Speaker 2 (01:11:07):
Exactly that's.
I'm sure Airbnb will bethrilled to hear that and that's
where, like, I feel like in ourindustry, there's certain
people that just that, likethey're not.
I mean you're, you work atViator, you've got this great
role there, but, like, thereality is, we use all sorts of
different platforms and we we'llcontinue to so.
Like I'm glad, I'm glad thatyou mentioned that, because it's
not like a hard.
You know Airbnb.

(01:11:28):
I love traveling with Airbnb aswell, but I also love luxury
boutique hotels when I can.
Like I'm like I saw, I'm a hugefan of boutique hotels.
All right, now, if you weren'tworking at Viator, if your life
trajectory did not go the waythat you, you know you weren't
in Boston at Viator where do youthink you'd be and what might
you be?

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
doing.
I'd be a journalist, I think,if they would have had me, but I
I love reading and writing,Very interested in the world.
Listening to the news is one ofmy greatest passions.
I would, I would be delightedto be a journalist, or would
have been delighted to be ajournalist.

Speaker 2 (01:12:03):
And then last question I know you've got a
young daughter and you're basedyour husband's English, and so
you've got this internationalperspective based in Boston.
But when it comes to your nextpersonal trip or your next, the
next place you desire going Iknow we just talked about
Columbia, but what's at the topof your, your short list of
destinations you're very keen toget to?

Speaker 1 (01:12:27):
Well, my daughter is quite obsessive about volcanoes
and American Thanksgiving iscoming up, as discussed.
I'm Canadian, so we don't wedon't do a ton in the US.
She'll be out of school.
I am taking her on a motherdaughter holiday and I think
we're going to do a self drivefor six days around Iceland, and
I am just really, really hopingthat I don't find myself
changing a tire in Arcticfreezing temperatures at two

(01:12:49):
o'clock in the morning withnothing around for miles.
I'm a little nervous, but it'llbe great.
So, iceland, iceland is thenext place that I'm going.
Very cool.

Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
You're absolutely gonna love it.
Iceland's an amazingdestination.
I definitely have somesuggestions for you there.
I've been there a few times andI've got some great friends and
colleagues there at the companyat Capdeo that I work with
closely with a K.
They are based in Iceland,ragnar, and yeah, I've got a
huge fascination with Icelandand if you want volcanoes,
that's definitely the place togo, so your daughter's going to
love it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:13):
Oh yeah, we want volcanoes.
We talk about volcanoes all thetime.
We'll see YouTube videos onvolcanoes.

Speaker 2 (01:13:19):
That's fantastic.
One last question and thenwe'll wrap up is that you know,
given our conversation startedwith your career and again
calling you out, which I firmlybelieve, as a captain of
industry I know you're notcomfortable with that term, but
there are certain people thatand this is when I created this
podcast to speak to people whoare myself from like 1520 years

(01:13:39):
ago, when I was working atLonely Planet and coming up in
the industry the people I wantedto listen to, learn from and
then apply in my role.
So if you could say to youryounger self when you were just
working at that PR agency inLondon doing listicles and not
knowing what the future hold,what advice would you give to
yourself now in your career thatmight be valuable to other

(01:14:01):
listeners?

Speaker 1 (01:14:02):
I wish I'd learned much earlier on to care so much
less about what people think ofyou.
I was afraid of my own shadowfor the first 10 or 12 years of
my career, and when you're ajunior those instincts are
probably quite helpful becauseyou know the thing.
Telling you maybe don't speak upsometimes is probably right,
but I was just I was so I was sonervous, I was so afraid to

(01:14:23):
speak my mind, and sort of whatI've realized over the last 10
or so years is like they're notpaying attention to you.
Really, we could all justreally benefit from caring a
little bit less about whatpeople think.
No one has sat there watchingyou, monitoring you, and even if
they are, you are in a job, youhave a point of view, you are
probably an expert on whatyou're about to speak about, and
bad if they are.
You are in a job, you have apoint of view.

(01:14:43):
You are probably an expert onwhat you're about to speak about
, and bad things are not goingto happen if you just speak your
mind.
So I think I would have told myyounger self to be less fearful
of having a point of view andstart sharing it earlier on.

Speaker 2 (01:14:54):
Yeah, that's really valuable.
I couldn't agree with you more,and a number of people have
commented to me on the podcast.
They're like I love this newDan Christian 2.0.
Like I remember you and you'rein the corporate world, but you
now seem to have a real,authentic voice and I was just
like.
This has always been me, butI've never been as comfortable
and natural and I think one ofthe things that you're clearly
able to do that in a corporaterole but I never quite was able

(01:15:15):
to speak in my own voice.
I always felt like I needed tospeak in my corporate voice or
in my role.
So this conversation to me hasbeen so refreshing and I'm sure
it's been delightful for all ofour listeners as well.
I obviously I'm thrilled thatwe know each other and I'm
looking forward to seeing you inOrlando in a few weeks
depending on people arelistening to this and arrival
likely after that.
So I look forward to seeing youin person, laurel.

(01:15:35):
I value our friendship and Ilook forward to seeing your
continued success.
So thanks so much for joiningus on the podcast and I can't
wait to see you in person soon.
So thanks so much for joiningus on the podcast and I can't
wait to see you in person soon.

Speaker 1 (01:15:44):
Oh, thank you so much for having me and thank you for
all of the very, very kindwords.
I feel very undeserving, butI'm very grateful.

Speaker 2 (01:15:50):
Thanks so much for joining us on our latest episode
of Travel Trends.
I hope you enjoyed today'sconversation with Laurel
Graytricks, the VP of Marketingat Viator.
You can find clips andhighlights from our conversation
on our social channelsInstagram, youtube and LinkedIn
at Travel Trends Podcast.
And we have one final episodein our In Destination series,
part two, which is brought to usin partnership with our friends

(01:16:13):
at Pernod Ricard.
You can learn more about theirbrand homes at pernod-ricardcom.
Our final episode is going tofeature the founder of the app,
geotourist, to talk about howtechnology is changing the
in-destination experience.
And, speaking of technology, wehave our AI Summit coming up at
the end of October, the 28thand 29th.

(01:16:34):
You can find out more detailsat TravelTrendsPodcastcom and
register to join us and sign upfor our monthly newsletter,
where we send a roundup of allthe latest episodes from the
month and our travel plans forthe next month.
And you can find out wherewe're going to be on our events
page, which includes theFocusrite conference in San
Diego in November, where, if youpurchase one of our tickets

(01:16:56):
through our promo code, whichwill not only save you $250 off
a ticket, it will also guaranteeyou a place in our event
spotlight episode, so we hopethat you will join us there.
Until next time, safe travels.

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