May 7, 2021 • 38 mins
May is National Preservation Month, and we wanted to celebrate the importance of historic places and the heritage of these places and spaces that define our history and shape our future. TreanorHL provides planning and architectural design services for historic preservation projects—including restoration, rehabilitation and adaptive reuse. Our preservation specialists love what they do and go above and beyond to make sure historically significant buildings serve well into the future.
To talk more about why we love historic preservation and what it means to us, we caught up with Vance Kelley, Nancy Goldenberg, Kim Butt, Joy Coleman, and Julia Manglitz from TreanorHL’s Historic Preservation studio.
Learn more about projects referenced in this episode:
TreanorHL is a national architecture, planning, and design firm located in the United States. The company holds a firm belief in sharing resources and insights with professionals, clients, and building users to shape the space we use to live and grow as people. For more information, visit treanorhl.com.
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Episode Transcript
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Megan Brock (00:01):
Welcome to TreanorHL talks, a podcast about
architecture, planning anddesign trends as well as current
events and noteworthy topics inthe field. I'm your host, Megan
Brock, introducing today'stopic, why we love historic
preservation. May is NationalPreservation month and we wanted
to celebrate the importance ofhistoric places and the heritage
of these places and spaces thatdefine our history and shape our
(00:25):
future. TreanorHL providesplanning and architectural
design services for historicpreservation projects, including
restoration, rehabilitation andadaptive reuse. Our preservation
specialists love what they do,and they go above and beyond to
make sure of historicallysignificant buildings serve well
into the future. To talk moreabout why we love historic
(00:46):
preservation and what it meansto us. I am joined today by Joy
Coleman, Kim Butt, JuliaManglitz, Vance Kelley, and
Nancy Goldenberg. Pleaseintroduce yourselves and your
role at TreanorHL.
Joy Coleman (00:59):
I'm Joy Coleman, and I'm a principal at
TreanorHL. I'm a preservationarchitect as well, and work in
our historic preservation group.
Kim Butt (01:08):
I'm Kim Butt, I'm a preservation architect and
architectural historian andprincipal in our preservation
studio.
Julia Manglitz (01:17):
And I'm Julia Manglitz. I'm a preservation
architect, and I am an associateprincipal in our preservation
studio.
Vance Kelley (01:24):
I'm Vance Kelley, I lead our historic preservation
studio at TreanorHL. In additionto this, I serve as a principal
in charge and architect ofrecord for many of the projects
that our studio works on withour different clients.
Nancy Goldenberg (01:38):
And I am Nancy Goldenberg. I am also a
principal in TreanorHL'spreservation studio. In addition
to being an architect, I am alsoan architectural historian.
Megan Brock (01:52):
Great. Thank you, everyone for joining me today.
Let's go ahead and get started.
So take us back to the beginningof your careers. Did you know
Historic Preservation was whereyou wanted to focus? If not tell
me how you landed in this field?
Kim Butt (02:08):
Well, I wish when I went to architecture school, I
did not know if I wanted to bean architect, or if I went and I
definitely didn't know what Iwanted to specialize in. I just
thought I'd give it a try. Andthen it stuck. I definitely
always was one of the few peoplethat loved the architectural
history classes. Myarchitectural history professor
(02:31):
used to bring a riding crop toher lectures so she could hit
the lectern to keep people fromfalling asleep. I was never one
of those people that fellasleep, but it was pretty good
tactic. One of my firstarchitectural internship was in
the out here in the Bay Area.
One summer working for my nowfather in law's architecture
firm. And they had a projectthat we were doing an
(02:53):
accessibility survey of theStanford campus. And which meant
basically I spent my summermeasuring toilets, but I had a
choice of which buildings, I gotto measure the toilets in. And I
that was the summer that Idecided I really wanted to be in
the pretty historic buildings.
(03:13):
And so from there, really, fromthat summer, my trajectory went
toward historic buildings.
Joy Coleman (03:21):
I did not know that I wanted to be a preservation
architect. I knew I wanted to bean architect in high school. And
I didn't really know much abouthistoric preservation.
Throughout college, I had a fewclasses that we had projects
that did additions to historicbuildings, and I always love
those. And my first job out ofcollege was at a university
(03:45):
campus. And like Kim just said,I always chose to work on the
older buildings. And I lovedgoing through the original
drawings and looking in all thelittle nooks and crannies for
the evidence of the past.
Julia Manglitz (03:57):
I knew that I wanted to be in historic
preservation when I went intoarchitecture schools. So while I
was there, I participated in thehistoric american buildings
survey, which was a class and ajob. And it was a great first
exposure to being out in thefield and getting to know a
historic building.
Vance Kelley (04:20):
Well, like many young architects, I really
didn't know that I wanted tofocus on one aspect of the
architectural profession. It wasshortly after graduation when I
was working with my secondemployer that I had my "aha"
moment. I was at work workinglate at night working on a
(04:41):
project where the client reallydidn't care about architectural
design. They basically wantedthe largest building for the
least amount of money that itwould cost them. So here I was,
and I had to ask myself, whatwas it about architecture that
made me decide to go into thisprofession, what type of
(05:02):
architecture do I want to beinvolved with for the rest of my
career. And so I'm sitting therelate at night, and I'm thinking
back and truthfully, my firstexposure to architecture was on
our family vacations, we wouldjump in our stationwagon, and we
would visit historic sights. Andit was the tie between those
historic buildings and thestories of the people who
(05:25):
designed them, built them orlived there. And then the effect
they had on American history.
And it was at that point that Iknew I would have a career in
working with clients, to helpthem preserve their historic
buildings so that others couldappreciate what past generations
had created for us left for usin order to appreciate. So with
(05:45):
that decision, I really startedto focus my career on learning
anything and everything I couldabout historic buildings about
historic preservation.
Nancy Goldenberg (05:56):
Well, I went to college in the early 1970s,
when historic preservation as adiscipline was really in its
infancy. And I'm looking around,I found that I didn't like the
new buildings that were beingconstructed at the time. And I
was especially discouraged tosee that the buildings that I
(06:17):
liked, which were the olderbuildings were being demolished,
I actually almost changed mymajor to music, much to my
parents chagrin, however, Istuck with architecture. And I
was enamored of my architecturalhistory classes. That was the
bright spot. And then during agap year, I traveled to Europe
(06:41):
and the east coast, and becameconvinced that I really did want
to work with old buildings. ButI eventually got my master's
degree in architectural history.
And my first job was with NewYork state. So like dance, I
spent a few years working for agovernment agency. In my case,
it was the bureau of historicsites. So we specifically worked
(07:03):
with state historic sites, and Igot a lot of experience with
house museums, and also got alot of experience with
conservation.
Megan Brock (07:14):
It sounds like you were all drawn in in different
scenarios, and found variousways to connect with these
buildings you came in contactwith. Very cool. So let's talk
more about your passion forthese buildings and this
profession. What would you sayyou love the most about it?
Kim Butt (07:31):
I think my favorite thing, what I've enjoyed most,
it's kind of silly, but I justlove being able to explore and
go into the historic buildings,I enjoyed going down to see the
mechanical room or to go up inthe attic and see where they're
storing all the extra pieces.
And I love getting to go on thatbehind the scenes space.
Joy Coleman (07:53):
I think the variety of different types of buildings
that I get to work on and theknowledge of those before the
project starts often there areprojects that start on buildings
that we have been kind oftracking for years. And so we
know a little bit about thembefore the project even comes
up.
Julia Manglitz (08:13):
I would agree with the points joy and Kim have
made. And I'll just add that Ithink the thing about historic
preservation that I like is thatI am always learning something.
I'm always learning about thebuilding, the history associated
with the building, but everyproject brings a different set
of technical challenges. And soI'm also always learning from
(08:34):
our consultants and from thecontractors that we work with.
It's just this sort ofconstantly expanding knowledge
base, about how we interact withmaterials and spaces and how
best to care for them. It's justit never gets old, it's never
the same day.
Vance Kelley (08:54):
To me, it goes back to the connection of the
stories to the buildings, youknow, a building is a building
until you really start tounderstand, you know, why it was
built? Or who designed it? Orwhat was the purpose or what the
impact that building had on onthe community that it's located,
(09:18):
that it is more than just a pileof bricks or stone. It has more
to do with the people that hadthe vision for creating and
using the buildings and I don'tthink you can separate the two I
think they go hand in hand. Aswe work on a project. We try to
(09:39):
help the clients understand theimportance of that that allows
them as they look at the designprocess of trying to capture
that to build upon that story tomake sure it's being told make
sure make sure it's still beingseen, as they then want to tell
their own story of who they areand how they're using the
(09:59):
building as well.
Nancy Goldenberg (10:02):
Well I agree with everything that Vance just
said, as an architecturalhistorian, I'm also very
intrigued by the stories. And infact, I tend to anthropomorphize
buildings a lot. So they're,they become like people to me. I
think the thing that I most loveabout this work is exploring
(10:24):
these buildings, particularlydecrepid, ones that have been
sitting unused for a long time,and particularly if they still
have stuff in them. Plus, youhave to use all your senses when
you're there. You can hearthings, you can you can smell
things. It's not just looking.
Vance Kelley (10:45):
I think Nancy hit on something that buildings do
speak to us when Nancy and I goout to do a building site of a
building that maybe it's beenvacant for a long time. And like
she said, we're we're trying tounderstand how it's changed over
time. But there are all theseclues around the building that
she and I can can figure out aspart of our role as a detective
(11:09):
and, and so whether it's, it'sthe the physical remnants of
material, or as you're lookingfor decorative paint, you can
take your high poweredflashlights and rake it along
the wall. And you can actuallytell if there's decorative paint
that's been covered over time.
So there's all these littletricks and tools that we know,
(11:30):
to help capture what has changedon those buildings.
Megan Brock (11:38):
Something I like about what I'm hearing from all
of you is that you're focused onbuildings holistically, meaning
Kim is going behind the scenesand looking at the guts of the
building and how it operates.
And Vance is considering how thepeople that inhabit the space
have added to or defined itshistory. It's interesting to get
such a rounded perspective outof what you do as building
detectives in a word. Tell meabout a specific project that
(12:02):
really had an impact on you.
Joy Coleman (12:07):
One of my most recent projects in Cape
Girardeau, Missouri, at the CapeGirardeau Court of Common Pleas.
So Cape Girardeau is one ofthose counties with two
courthouses. There's one inJackson and one in Cape
Girardeau. And the Common Pleascourthouse is in Cape Girardeau.
(12:28):
And on its property, there isalso a Carnegie Library. That
was one of the last Carnegielibraries to be built in the
nation. The interesting historyof the property is that the city
and the county have owned thebuilding, each has owned the
(12:48):
building and passed it back andforth from one to the other. And
each have occupied the building.
So it started out, of course, asa county courthouse, and then
the city moved in, and it wasCity Hall. And then they thought
about selling it to the feds,but the Feds didn't want to buy
it, they built a new building.
And so the county moved back in.
And now the county has moved outand the city is moving back in.
(13:12):
And we're building an additionto connect the Courthouse with
the City Hall. So it's just ainteresting kind of back and
forth of uses and ownership. Andit doesn't always match. But
now, after our project is done,the owner will match the use.
Kim Butt (13:33):
In particular, when I'm thinking of that was one of
the most fascinating projects Iworked on, was at San Quentin
Prison here in the Bay Area, andthat we had to do a historic
structures report on the oldestbuilding there. And it was
actually five buildings and onethat were all stuck together
(13:53):
they just added on. And theoldest part of the building was
kind of a dungeon like structuremade with these really thick
stones. And the history of thatwas that the prisoners
originally, they stuck them outon a ship in the bay. And then
during the day, they had to comeon land and quarry the stone and
(14:17):
build the first jail. But thenthey got to go sit in after
that, which seemed prettyintense. That was a fascinating
history and a fascinatingproject. Because I mean, just
being that I had to go on siteat San Quentin sounded, you
know, pretty tough and exciting.
It was, you know, we were withthe guard the whole time. And we
(14:40):
were in areas where there wereno people that at least I could
say, you know, I've worked atSan Quentin now.
Nancy Goldenberg (14:49):
And I'm going to tell you about Apple two at
the Nevada Test Site. That'sprobably the strangest thing
that I've worked on and alsopretty interesting an apple two
was a project in the mid 50s. Itwas a series of residential type
structures that were constructedin the desert. They were
(15:10):
populated with mannequins andcheap furniture it was they were
made to mimic the averageAmerican house. And then they
were blown up. And you know,they had a lot of cameras in
place, and so that, soafterwards, the scientists could
determine how much damage eachbuilding received, the ones that
(15:32):
were further away from groundzero survived. And so the two
that we that we worked on were,were the furthest away, and they
were still standing, althoughdamaged by the blast. And I
think they were also looking atdifferent construction pipes to
see what could resist a nuclearexplosion better. So part of it
was was meant to inform futurebuilding codes, and part of it
(15:56):
was to see what happened to thecommon contents of a building in
a nuclear explosion. And I thinkthe main point of the project
was chiar. This was heavilypublicized and they wanted, I
think they wanted to show thepublic that nuclear blast could
be survivable, even thoughreally, it wouldn't but, but
(16:17):
there was a big PR component ofthe project.
Julia Manglitz (16:22):
The catalog of interesting site visits is long.
I don't know being in 40 mile anhour wind on the south face of
the Oklahoma state Capitol, and150 foot lift, also being on
wind, and 180 foot lift at anold psychiatric hospital in
Topeka. A lot of my interestingfield stories have to do with
(16:42):
being up somewhere really high.
And I'm actually afraid ofheights. So it's always a
challenge. You know, there wasthe field investigation for the
tower at Fort Leavenworth, whichwas really scary. That was a
crane basket. And then we woundup having to do that for the
statehouse in Topeka, and did itagain, for another building in
(17:03):
Topeka. I think maybe, for me,the most fascinating history or
project that I worked onprobably was the State Capitol
in Topeka, Kansas State House,that building is really huge and
amazing and ornate. And italways blows me away. When I
think about that building. Andthink about what Kansas looked
(17:24):
like when they set out to buildthat building. You know, a lot
of people were living in soddiesand log cabins and dugouts, for
them to have the audacity andvision to say we want a capital
that is this large in thisgrand, I think, is really
something and I think it reallyspeaks to a spirit of the times
(17:46):
and a spirit of the people ofthe state. To see that play out.
It took 37 years to build itoriginally. So it was a it was a
long haul. And because it wassuch a long haul. And there were
so many architects and so manybuilders involved, it all looks
like one big building now. Butwhen you really focus in on the
details, you can start todiscern the different eras of
(18:08):
construction and the differenthands that made it and how
technology changed over those 37years about how we build
buildings. So to me that that'sone that's just fascinating on
so many levels, and then there'sjust so much history.
Vance Kelley (18:26):
You know, every project that we worked on,
certainly has a story behind it.
And usually the history is, iswhat adds to the interest in the
project. But I think one of theprojects that really did
influence me influenced me morethan others was probably the
opportunity to work on thepreservation and restoration of
(18:46):
the Kansas State House. And, youknow, while the buildings is
extremely important to thestate, you also have to remember
what our country had just gonethrough Kansas was brought on as
the 34th state in the union, itwas brought on as a free state,
not as a slave state and thecivil war was going on in
started in 1861. And after thewar is when Kansas decided that
(19:10):
they were going to build theirnew capitol. I'd like many
states who who built their statehouses or capitol buildings
after the Civil War. Many ofthem really looked to the US
Capitol as a design inspiration.
(19:33):
And I think they did this. Yes,partially because of the
architectural design of it. Butyou also have to remember back
during the Civil War is whenthey were building the dome on
the US Capitol. So here we arein the middle of the Civil War.
Construction is going on. Youhave members of Congress just
(19:56):
wanting to stop construction,saying you know look, we have a
war to fight, we have dollarsthat shouldn't be spent on this.
And and if it wasn't for AbrahamLincoln who said, No, you have
to understand that capital is ais a temple of democracy, it's a
symbol of democracy and allthese young men that are coming
from surrounding states that aretraveling through Washington, DC
(20:21):
in order to go fight the war,they need to have a symbol, they
need to understand that theunion is strong. And that's it's
continuing. And when youremember that story about a
temple of democracy, and thenyou think about the states that
built their capitol buildingsafter the Civil War, it is
because it is such an importantsymbol. It's not just a
(20:44):
building. And, and it's not abuilding that we should look to
just because of itsarchitecture, but it is the idea
that was created, it's at Templeof democracy. And to think in
Kansas, they built that in thein the middle of a prairie, you
know, it's pretty incredible.
Megan Brock (21:02):
So these places are historical and important to us
because of what they symbolizeand how they provide evidence of
the past in this country.
Currently, there's a lot ofdialogue about national symbols
and what they represent, drawingsome concern about memorializing
the dark parts of our past. I'dlike to get your input on what
you've been hearing within thepreservation community and how
(21:23):
you see this changing in thefuture.
Vance Kelley (21:27):
I do think that that historic architecture as
symbols are a reality of thesituation, I'm heavily involved
with the National Trust forHistoric Preservation. And, and
back when there was the initialdiscussion of should we be
eliminating or removing thestatues that are on the grounds
(21:51):
of courthouses or restatehouses. And it's a difficult
discussion, but it's adiscussion that needs to occur.
And I think that's what theNational Trust was trying to
say, is we cannot hide whathappened has happened in the
past and, and maybe it's bestnot for us necessarily to remove
(22:12):
what's there. But to make surethat we are telling the full
story, making sure that we aretelling the other side of the
story. And that doesn'tcertainly does not happen.
Historically. The story is toldby the Victor and not those that
are oppressed. And my example ofbeing able to work on on a state
(22:34):
house or a capitol buildingcertainly resonated with me when
I saw the events that happenedin Washington DC and the
storming of the US Capitol, thathere is this sacred temple of
democracy or I and many otherssee is sacred and, and to see it
(22:55):
being attacked in that way,certainly brought back concerns
that we have and concerns of howthings are divisive right now.
And we in architecture, probablyare more aware of it in historic
architecture, because of thestories that many of these sites
have. And some are difficulthistories and others are, are
(23:20):
really good histories. Werehelping the congregation of St.
Mark's AME Church in Topeka,Kansas, a small black
congregation that has receivedsome federal dollars and and why
is this church significant?
Well, it's because ReverendOliver Brown was the pastor of
this church. And Reverend OliverBrown was one of the plaintiffs
(23:41):
in Brown versus speak of Boardof Education, the historic Civil
Rights legislation that changednot only education in the US,
but also across the world. Andas another symbol of what can
happen, and the need for thesestories to be told, and the need
for people to be able toexperience the sights to me, is
(24:02):
extremely important. Because ifwe're not careful, history can
often repeat itself and repeatitself in a in a negative way.
Nancy Goldenberg (24:15):
Yeah, and I think one of the reasons for
preserving the more embarrassingor the negative aspects of our
history, as Van said, it's sothat we don't repeat them but
but there's a lot of denialthese days, about events even
having happened and I'm thinkingof people that deny the
Holocaust, for example, if youkeep the physical relics of
(24:37):
those stories, then there's aphysical monument. There's
something that says yes, thisreally did happen. It's not
something that we like it's nota good thing, but you can't deny
it because here's here's thephysical manifestation of what
happened. That's one of the oneof the reasons that I think
preservation at the Nevada TestSite is important because it
(24:59):
shows us that, yeah, we had acold war, we did a lot of
nuclear testing. These are therelics. It's one of the reasons
why remnants of the Berlin Wallwere maintained, so that you can
preserve that history. Andhopefully, you know, we don't go
down that way anymore.
Julia Manglitz (25:16):
As someone who kind of got started in
preservation or got her first,you know, her first project,
basically in preservationworking on buildings that really
represent I thinkunderrepresented groups and
populations. I'm personallyexcited about some of the social
(25:37):
changes, because I think it'stelling a fuller story about who
we are, and making a fullerstory about the parts and pieces
that make up a place. And Ithink that that's important,
because I think it's importantfor people to see their
realities and their historiesreflected in their world, and
(26:00):
recognized, I also see thatthere's a lot we could and
should be learning. You know,the other big issue I think
we're facing is, is climatechange, and looking at buildings
that have dealt with climate inways that use less energy. I
think there are a lot of lessonsin durability, and impact on our
(26:23):
environment that we can learnfrom historic buildings of all
ages, especially as we start tolook at the impact that carbon
has on our environment, and theimpact that we have on water and
air quality. I think there are alot of strategies that we've
kind of forgotten about, thatare embodied in some historic
buildings that might proveuseful in thinking about new
(26:45):
ways to interact with ournatural environment, and reusing
a lot of our existing buildings,I think is going to continue to
be an important aspect ofmitigating our impact on the
environment.
Megan Brock (26:58):
Julia brings up a great point about the connection
between historic preservationand sustainability. What role
does sustainability have in yourwork? And what are some of the
challenges and opportunitiesyou've encountered?
Vance Kelley (27:11):
Historic preservation isn't stagnant.
It's not about living in the inthe past, it's not about
stopping progress. What we'redealing with, of course, is
trying to make sure that theexisting building stock has a
future. And we understand thatbuildings have to change over
time, you have to of course,look at what you have,
(27:34):
understand what you have what'ssignificant about what you have,
and then make sure that thebuilding can function for
today's purposes. And that doesmean also then making sure that
what we do within that historicbuilding takes into account the
things that are so significant.
And today when we're dealingwith environmental issues, and,
and climate change, andrenewable energy, all of that
(27:57):
can be incorporated into thework that we do in preserving
historic buildings with veryenergy efficient systems
nowadays, but when you look atit simplistically, think of
recycling these buildings. Andif we didn't recycle them, if we
didn't reuse them, all of thatenergy and hard work that was
(28:19):
put into putting those buildingstogether, would be lost, lost to
a landfill. So when you look atthe big picture, it's a pretty
simple concept that historicpreservation really is looking
at it from an environmentalimpact, those are decisions that
we really need to make in orderto make sure that these
(28:40):
buildings can function and meetthe needs of a modern society.
And those are all the detailsthat we as design professionals
are able to help influence andmake sure that we're we're
headed and treating thebuildings in the in the right
direction.
Nancy Goldenberg (28:58):
Yeah, and I'll add to that. Preservation really
is sustainability. I remembergoing into an interview maybe 15
years ago and having having themask, could you comment on
sustainability versuspreservation? And it's like,
wait a minute, it's the samething. We're recycling
buildings, where we're savingall that embodied carbon, it is
(29:23):
inherently highly sustainable.
Plus, if you're just looking atsustainability as meeting LEED
requirements, it gets a littledicey here because
unfortunately, it doesn't reallygive you enough credit for whole
building recycling. Gives yousome but not enough on library
and quartz which is a buildingin Sacramento. We achieved LEED
(29:44):
silver, we did not replace thewindows, they remained single
glazed, we did put a low E filmon those windows to cut down on
the heat gain, which iscertainly an issue in
Sacramento, and added mechoshades, the veterans building
here in San Francisco thatachieved LEED Gold. And again,
(30:05):
we kept the windows, they werenot double glazed. But we
achieved a high level of evenwith the lead system, we
achieved a pretty high level.
Another thing is that manyhistoric buildings were
constructed before modernmechanical systems were created.
And so they have a lot ofinherent qualities that help to
(30:28):
achieve reasonable climatecontrol without the modern
mechanical system, things likeceiling fans and transom windows
in corridors that that allowedcross ventilation, things like
that, that were smart ways ofachieving user comfort without
using a lot of energy.
Unknown (30:48):
And speaking to
Joy Coleman (30:49):
that, I think that energy efficiency is important.
But also, I think that settingup expectations of physical
comfort is also effective. Sowhen we're talking about the
natural ventilation, the reasonwe've gotten away from that, in
the past, you know, 50 years isthat we want to control
(31:12):
temperature and humidity in thisvery tight range. And I don't
know that that is sustainable,or all that important. Really,
if it's 95 degrees outside doesit really have to be 68, inside,
let's maybe shift ourexpectations with the
temperature outside. If it'ssummertime, it should be warmer
(31:36):
inside, then the temperature itis on the inside in the
wintertime. Also, don't let thewindows be thrown away. That's
just like, you're never gonnaget them back. And then new
windows, you might think they'remore energy efficient. But think
of all that energy that was thatwent into making them and
(31:57):
shipping them to the buildinglocation. And then they're going
to wear out quicker than the oldgrowth wood windows at least.
And you're going to have toreplace them again. So you have
to think about all the energy,not just the energy the building
is using right now.
Megan Brock (32:15):
Nancy seems to have hit the nail on the head here.
When you're talking aboutsustainability and historic
buildings. Ask not what you cando for the building, ask what
the building can do for you.
It's an interesting way to lookat it. So looking forward in
this field, how do you all seepreservation changing?
Kim Butt (32:33):
Well, the first thought that comes to my mind is
that now we have a whole newgeneration of buildings coming
online that people are going tohave to be convinced are worth
preserving. And the 60s, itstarted with convincing people
that Victorians were special andunique and needed to be saved.
And now we have Mid CenturyModern coming of age, you know,
(32:57):
50 years is that is the ageright? That's, that's what we
were we start looking at thingswhich you get a lot of people
saying that's not historic 50years, please. But that that is
the kind of accepted timeframethat of which you can start
looking back and understandingwhether something really was
significant to architecture toits history, its people.
Vance Kelley (33:22):
The changes that occurred through architecture
and architectural design overtime, are affecting how Nancy
and I and joy and Kim look atthese historic buildings.
Because a building built in thelate 1890s was constructed of
(33:43):
maybe similar material asbuildings built in the 50s 60s
or 70s, even but how it wasbuilt, and how it was
constructed is a lot different.
And so as we go forward, asprofessionals, we need to
understand how building designand construction changed over
time, so that we can help ourclients understand what they're,
(34:05):
they're dealing with. And soHistoric Preservation isn't
stagnant. Like I said before, itis something that continues to
evolve because it's a reflectionof our past and as the building
industry change, design andarchitecture change. So is
historic preservation.
Nancy Goldenberg (34:26):
In addition to preserving buildings that were
built, after I was born, whichwe're starting to do, I think
we'll have better diagnostictools. We've I'm already seeing
that. I mean, even in the last10 years, we've got a lot more
tools we can use when we aredoing those explorations that we
(34:48):
were just talking aboutsustainability will become even
more important. And then anotherthing that that I'm beginning to
see is that there will be abroader understanding of and
focus on preservation of nonmaterial or non physical aspects
of culture, I mean, here in SanFrancisco, for example, we've
already got a landmark businessprogram. And that acknowledges
(35:13):
businesses that have been aroundfor, you know, 20 or 30 years.
They're an important part of ourcity. Also, not just the
buildings that the businessesreside in, I've been to lectures
about preserving other aspectsof culture, like song and dance.
And so I think that's going to,we're going to see more of that
in the future.
Joy Coleman (35:33):
Things are changing, politically, the
history that you have learned,and you have been told that has
been invented by whoever iswriting the history, you know,
is that more important thananother history? So I think
maybe it's going to broaden theconversation and what's
(35:53):
considered historicallysignificant and not always tied
to a physical structure or abuilding. But I think that the
whole movement started, not onlyto save historic buildings, but
to preserve the physicalremnants of the history of a
place.
Megan Brock (36:13):
Fantastic points.
As we head into what's next inhistoric preservation, what do
you want others to know? What isyour advice?
Kim Butt (36:22):
I think I have what I would say to a client or any or
a building owner is not to fearpreservation or fear
regulations. There are a lot ofpeople just think you're not
going to let me do anything withmy building. I don't want to
deal with a historic building.
This is it's scary, it's peopleare going to tell me what to do.
(36:45):
And I would just say, let's,let's look at it as an
opportunity to enhance thisgorgeous building or to move
forward. But I just Iunfortunately, see a lot of
misunderstanding and fear aboutwhat it means to work with a
historic building. There's a lotof really great opportunities
available and working withsomething that's existing, it's
(37:07):
better for our planet to use anexisting building, then put it
in the landfill and build newand you can learn from them. And
so many ways.
Julia Manglitz (37:19):
Since they talked a lot to owners, I'm
going to speak to young folkswho maybe you're interested in
getting into this, be curious,don't be afraid to go around and
touch materials and tap on them.
Read, get every take everychance you have to get your
hands dirty, and understand howthings are put together. Because
it is so important in what wedo, and trying to analyze what's
(37:41):
there, and what's possible andwhat's not possible. Just never
stop asking questions and beingcurious.
Megan Brock (37:51):
Great advice. Thank you everyone for joining me
today. TreanorHL will beparticipating in National
Preservation month allthroughout May on social media,
sharing some of our favoritebuildings and their unique
histories. See episode notes orvisit treanorhl.com to learn
more about how we've helped ourclients with historic space
solutions that fit their uniqueneeds.
(38:13):
Until next time, thank you forjoining us on this episode of
TreanorHL talks. TreanorHL is anational architecture planning
and design firm located in theUnited States. The company holds
a firm belief in sharingresources and insights with
professionals clients andbuilding users to shape the
space we use to live and grow aspeople. For more information
(38:35):
visit treanorhl.com That'streanorhl.com.
reanrhl.com.
Welcome to TreanorHL talks, a podcast about
architecture, planning anddesign trends as well as current
events and noteworthy topics inthe field. I'm your host, Megan
Brock, introducing today'stopic, why we love historic
preservation. May is NationalPreservation month and we wanted
to celebrate the importance ofhistoric places and the heritage
of these places and spaces thatdefine our history and shape our
(00:25):
future. TreanorHL providesplanning and architectural
design services for historicpreservation projects, including
restoration, rehabilitation andadaptive reuse. Our preservation
specialists love what they do,and they go above and beyond to
make sure of historicallysignificant buildings serve well
into the future. To talk moreabout why we love historic
(00:46):
preservation and what it meansto us. I am joined today by Joy
Coleman, Kim Butt, JuliaManglitz, Vance Kelley, and
Nancy Goldenberg. Pleaseintroduce yourselves and your
role at TreanorHL.
Joy Coleman (00:59):
I'm Joy Coleman, and I'm a principal at
TreanorHL. I'm a preservationarchitect as well, and work in
our historic preservation group.
Kim Butt (01:08):
I'm Kim Butt, I'm a preservation architect and
architectural historian andprincipal in our preservation
studio.
Julia Manglitz (01:17):
And I'm Julia Manglitz. I'm a preservation
architect, and I am an associateprincipal in our preservation
studio.
Vance Kelley (01:24):
I'm Vance Kelley, I lead our historic preservation
studio at TreanorHL. In additionto this, I serve as a principal
in charge and architect ofrecord for many of the projects
that our studio works on withour different clients.
Nancy Goldenberg (01:38):
And I am Nancy Goldenberg. I am also a
principal in TreanorHL'spreservation studio. In addition
to being an architect, I am alsoan architectural historian.
Megan Brock (01:52):
Great. Thank you, everyone for joining me today.
Let's go ahead and get started.
So take us back to the beginningof your careers. Did you know
Historic Preservation was whereyou wanted to focus? If not tell
me how you landed in this field?
Kim Butt (02:08):
Well, I wish when I went to architecture school, I
did not know if I wanted to bean architect, or if I went and I
definitely didn't know what Iwanted to specialize in. I just
thought I'd give it a try. Andthen it stuck. I definitely
always was one of the few peoplethat loved the architectural
history classes. Myarchitectural history professor
(02:31):
used to bring a riding crop toher lectures so she could hit
the lectern to keep people fromfalling asleep. I was never one
of those people that fellasleep, but it was pretty good
tactic. One of my firstarchitectural internship was in
the out here in the Bay Area.
One summer working for my nowfather in law's architecture
firm. And they had a projectthat we were doing an
(02:53):
accessibility survey of theStanford campus. And which meant
basically I spent my summermeasuring toilets, but I had a
choice of which buildings, I gotto measure the toilets in. And I
that was the summer that Idecided I really wanted to be in
the pretty historic buildings.
(03:13):
And so from there, really, fromthat summer, my trajectory went
toward historic buildings.
Joy Coleman (03:21):
I did not know that I wanted to be a preservation
architect. I knew I wanted to bean architect in high school. And
I didn't really know much abouthistoric preservation.
Throughout college, I had a fewclasses that we had projects
that did additions to historicbuildings, and I always love
those. And my first job out ofcollege was at a university
(03:45):
campus. And like Kim just said,I always chose to work on the
older buildings. And I lovedgoing through the original
drawings and looking in all thelittle nooks and crannies for
the evidence of the past.
Julia Manglitz (03:57):
I knew that I wanted to be in historic
preservation when I went intoarchitecture schools. So while I
was there, I participated in thehistoric american buildings
survey, which was a class and ajob. And it was a great first
exposure to being out in thefield and getting to know a
historic building.
Vance Kelley (04:20):
Well, like many young architects, I really
didn't know that I wanted tofocus on one aspect of the
architectural profession. It wasshortly after graduation when I
was working with my secondemployer that I had my "aha"
moment. I was at work workinglate at night working on a
(04:41):
project where the client reallydidn't care about architectural
design. They basically wantedthe largest building for the
least amount of money that itwould cost them. So here I was,
and I had to ask myself, whatwas it about architecture that
made me decide to go into thisprofession, what type of
(05:02):
architecture do I want to beinvolved with for the rest of my
career. And so I'm sitting therelate at night, and I'm thinking
back and truthfully, my firstexposure to architecture was on
our family vacations, we wouldjump in our stationwagon, and we
would visit historic sights. Andit was the tie between those
historic buildings and thestories of the people who
(05:25):
designed them, built them orlived there. And then the effect
they had on American history.
And it was at that point that Iknew I would have a career in
working with clients, to helpthem preserve their historic
buildings so that others couldappreciate what past generations
had created for us left for usin order to appreciate. So with
(05:45):
that decision, I really startedto focus my career on learning
anything and everything I couldabout historic buildings about
historic preservation.
Nancy Goldenberg (05:56):
Well, I went to college in the early 1970s,
when historic preservation as adiscipline was really in its
infancy. And I'm looking around,I found that I didn't like the
new buildings that were beingconstructed at the time. And I
was especially discouraged tosee that the buildings that I
(06:17):
liked, which were the olderbuildings were being demolished,
I actually almost changed mymajor to music, much to my
parents chagrin, however, Istuck with architecture. And I
was enamored of my architecturalhistory classes. That was the
bright spot. And then during agap year, I traveled to Europe
(06:41):
and the east coast, and becameconvinced that I really did want
to work with old buildings. ButI eventually got my master's
degree in architectural history.
And my first job was with NewYork state. So like dance, I
spent a few years working for agovernment agency. In my case,
it was the bureau of historicsites. So we specifically worked
(07:03):
with state historic sites, and Igot a lot of experience with
house museums, and also got alot of experience with
conservation.
Megan Brock (07:14):
It sounds like you were all drawn in in different
scenarios, and found variousways to connect with these
buildings you came in contactwith. Very cool. So let's talk
more about your passion forthese buildings and this
profession. What would you sayyou love the most about it?
Kim Butt (07:31):
I think my favorite thing, what I've enjoyed most,
it's kind of silly, but I justlove being able to explore and
go into the historic buildings,I enjoyed going down to see the
mechanical room or to go up inthe attic and see where they're
storing all the extra pieces.
And I love getting to go on thatbehind the scenes space.
Joy Coleman (07:53):
I think the variety of different types of buildings
that I get to work on and theknowledge of those before the
project starts often there areprojects that start on buildings
that we have been kind oftracking for years. And so we
know a little bit about thembefore the project even comes
up.
Julia Manglitz (08:13):
I would agree with the points joy and Kim have
made. And I'll just add that Ithink the thing about historic
preservation that I like is thatI am always learning something.
I'm always learning about thebuilding, the history associated
with the building, but everyproject brings a different set
of technical challenges. And soI'm also always learning from
(08:34):
our consultants and from thecontractors that we work with.
It's just this sort ofconstantly expanding knowledge
base, about how we interact withmaterials and spaces and how
best to care for them. It's justit never gets old, it's never
the same day.
Vance Kelley (08:54):
To me, it goes back to the connection of the
stories to the buildings, youknow, a building is a building
until you really start tounderstand, you know, why it was
built? Or who designed it? Orwhat was the purpose or what the
impact that building had on onthe community that it's located,
(09:18):
that it is more than just a pileof bricks or stone. It has more
to do with the people that hadthe vision for creating and
using the buildings and I don'tthink you can separate the two I
think they go hand in hand. Aswe work on a project. We try to
(09:39):
help the clients understand theimportance of that that allows
them as they look at the designprocess of trying to capture
that to build upon that story tomake sure it's being told make
sure make sure it's still beingseen, as they then want to tell
their own story of who they areand how they're using the
(09:59):
building as well.
Nancy Goldenberg (10:02):
Well I agree with everything that Vance just
said, as an architecturalhistorian, I'm also very
intrigued by the stories. And infact, I tend to anthropomorphize
buildings a lot. So they're,they become like people to me. I
think the thing that I most loveabout this work is exploring
(10:24):
these buildings, particularlydecrepid, ones that have been
sitting unused for a long time,and particularly if they still
have stuff in them. Plus, youhave to use all your senses when
you're there. You can hearthings, you can you can smell
things. It's not just looking.
Vance Kelley (10:45):
I think Nancy hit on something that buildings do
speak to us when Nancy and I goout to do a building site of a
building that maybe it's beenvacant for a long time. And like
she said, we're we're trying tounderstand how it's changed over
time. But there are all theseclues around the building that
she and I can can figure out aspart of our role as a detective
(11:09):
and, and so whether it's, it'sthe the physical remnants of
material, or as you're lookingfor decorative paint, you can
take your high poweredflashlights and rake it along
the wall. And you can actuallytell if there's decorative paint
that's been covered over time.
So there's all these littletricks and tools that we know,
(11:30):
to help capture what has changedon those buildings.
Megan Brock (11:38):
Something I like about what I'm hearing from all
of you is that you're focused onbuildings holistically, meaning
Kim is going behind the scenesand looking at the guts of the
building and how it operates.
And Vance is considering how thepeople that inhabit the space
have added to or defined itshistory. It's interesting to get
such a rounded perspective outof what you do as building
detectives in a word. Tell meabout a specific project that
(12:02):
really had an impact on you.
Joy Coleman (12:07):
One of my most recent projects in Cape
Girardeau, Missouri, at the CapeGirardeau Court of Common Pleas.
So Cape Girardeau is one ofthose counties with two
courthouses. There's one inJackson and one in Cape
Girardeau. And the Common Pleascourthouse is in Cape Girardeau.
(12:28):
And on its property, there isalso a Carnegie Library. That
was one of the last Carnegielibraries to be built in the
nation. The interesting historyof the property is that the city
and the county have owned thebuilding, each has owned the
(12:48):
building and passed it back andforth from one to the other. And
each have occupied the building.
So it started out, of course, asa county courthouse, and then
the city moved in, and it wasCity Hall. And then they thought
about selling it to the feds,but the Feds didn't want to buy
it, they built a new building.
And so the county moved back in.
And now the county has moved outand the city is moving back in.
(13:12):
And we're building an additionto connect the Courthouse with
the City Hall. So it's just ainteresting kind of back and
forth of uses and ownership. Andit doesn't always match. But
now, after our project is done,the owner will match the use.
Kim Butt (13:33):
In particular, when I'm thinking of that was one of
the most fascinating projects Iworked on, was at San Quentin
Prison here in the Bay Area, andthat we had to do a historic
structures report on the oldestbuilding there. And it was
actually five buildings and onethat were all stuck together
(13:53):
they just added on. And theoldest part of the building was
kind of a dungeon like structuremade with these really thick
stones. And the history of thatwas that the prisoners
originally, they stuck them outon a ship in the bay. And then
during the day, they had to comeon land and quarry the stone and
(14:17):
build the first jail. But thenthey got to go sit in after
that, which seemed prettyintense. That was a fascinating
history and a fascinatingproject. Because I mean, just
being that I had to go on siteat San Quentin sounded, you
know, pretty tough and exciting.
It was, you know, we were withthe guard the whole time. And we
(14:40):
were in areas where there wereno people that at least I could
say, you know, I've worked atSan Quentin now.
Nancy Goldenberg (14:49):
And I'm going to tell you about Apple two at
the Nevada Test Site. That'sprobably the strangest thing
that I've worked on and alsopretty interesting an apple two
was a project in the mid 50s. Itwas a series of residential type
structures that were constructedin the desert. They were
(15:10):
populated with mannequins andcheap furniture it was they were
made to mimic the averageAmerican house. And then they
were blown up. And you know,they had a lot of cameras in
place, and so that, soafterwards, the scientists could
determine how much damage eachbuilding received, the ones that
(15:32):
were further away from groundzero survived. And so the two
that we that we worked on were,were the furthest away, and they
were still standing, althoughdamaged by the blast. And I
think they were also looking atdifferent construction pipes to
see what could resist a nuclearexplosion better. So part of it
was was meant to inform futurebuilding codes, and part of it
(15:56):
was to see what happened to thecommon contents of a building in
a nuclear explosion. And I thinkthe main point of the project
was chiar. This was heavilypublicized and they wanted, I
think they wanted to show thepublic that nuclear blast could
be survivable, even thoughreally, it wouldn't but, but
(16:17):
there was a big PR component ofthe project.
Julia Manglitz (16:22):
The catalog of interesting site visits is long.
I don't know being in 40 mile anhour wind on the south face of
the Oklahoma state Capitol, and150 foot lift, also being on
wind, and 180 foot lift at anold psychiatric hospital in
Topeka. A lot of my interestingfield stories have to do with
(16:42):
being up somewhere really high.
And I'm actually afraid ofheights. So it's always a
challenge. You know, there wasthe field investigation for the
tower at Fort Leavenworth, whichwas really scary. That was a
crane basket. And then we woundup having to do that for the
statehouse in Topeka, and did itagain, for another building in
(17:03):
Topeka. I think maybe, for me,the most fascinating history or
project that I worked onprobably was the State Capitol
in Topeka, Kansas State House,that building is really huge and
amazing and ornate. And italways blows me away. When I
think about that building. Andthink about what Kansas looked
(17:24):
like when they set out to buildthat building. You know, a lot
of people were living in soddiesand log cabins and dugouts, for
them to have the audacity andvision to say we want a capital
that is this large in thisgrand, I think, is really
something and I think it reallyspeaks to a spirit of the times
(17:46):
and a spirit of the people ofthe state. To see that play out.
It took 37 years to build itoriginally. So it was a it was a
long haul. And because it wassuch a long haul. And there were
so many architects and so manybuilders involved, it all looks
like one big building now. Butwhen you really focus in on the
details, you can start todiscern the different eras of
(18:08):
construction and the differenthands that made it and how
technology changed over those 37years about how we build
buildings. So to me that that'sone that's just fascinating on
so many levels, and then there'sjust so much history.
Vance Kelley (18:26):
You know, every project that we worked on,
certainly has a story behind it.
And usually the history is, iswhat adds to the interest in the
project. But I think one of theprojects that really did
influence me influenced me morethan others was probably the
opportunity to work on thepreservation and restoration of
(18:46):
the Kansas State House. And, youknow, while the buildings is
extremely important to thestate, you also have to remember
what our country had just gonethrough Kansas was brought on as
the 34th state in the union, itwas brought on as a free state,
not as a slave state and thecivil war was going on in
started in 1861. And after thewar is when Kansas decided that
(19:10):
they were going to build theirnew capitol. I'd like many
states who who built their statehouses or capitol buildings
after the Civil War. Many ofthem really looked to the US
Capitol as a design inspiration.
(19:33):
And I think they did this. Yes,partially because of the
architectural design of it. Butyou also have to remember back
during the Civil War is whenthey were building the dome on
the US Capitol. So here we arein the middle of the Civil War.
Construction is going on. Youhave members of Congress just
(19:56):
wanting to stop construction,saying you know look, we have a
war to fight, we have dollarsthat shouldn't be spent on this.
And and if it wasn't for AbrahamLincoln who said, No, you have
to understand that capital is ais a temple of democracy, it's a
symbol of democracy and allthese young men that are coming
from surrounding states that aretraveling through Washington, DC
(20:21):
in order to go fight the war,they need to have a symbol, they
need to understand that theunion is strong. And that's it's
continuing. And when youremember that story about a
temple of democracy, and thenyou think about the states that
built their capitol buildingsafter the Civil War, it is
because it is such an importantsymbol. It's not just a
(20:44):
building. And, and it's not abuilding that we should look to
just because of itsarchitecture, but it is the idea
that was created, it's at Templeof democracy. And to think in
Kansas, they built that in thein the middle of a prairie, you
know, it's pretty incredible.
Megan Brock (21:02):
So these places are historical and important to us
because of what they symbolizeand how they provide evidence of
the past in this country.
Currently, there's a lot ofdialogue about national symbols
and what they represent, drawingsome concern about memorializing
the dark parts of our past. I'dlike to get your input on what
you've been hearing within thepreservation community and how
(21:23):
you see this changing in thefuture.
Vance Kelley (21:27):
I do think that that historic architecture as
symbols are a reality of thesituation, I'm heavily involved
with the National Trust forHistoric Preservation. And, and
back when there was the initialdiscussion of should we be
eliminating or removing thestatues that are on the grounds
(21:51):
of courthouses or restatehouses. And it's a difficult
discussion, but it's adiscussion that needs to occur.
And I think that's what theNational Trust was trying to
say, is we cannot hide whathappened has happened in the
past and, and maybe it's bestnot for us necessarily to remove
(22:12):
what's there. But to make surethat we are telling the full
story, making sure that we aretelling the other side of the
story. And that doesn'tcertainly does not happen.
Historically. The story is toldby the Victor and not those that
are oppressed. And my example ofbeing able to work on on a state
(22:34):
house or a capitol buildingcertainly resonated with me when
I saw the events that happenedin Washington DC and the
storming of the US Capitol, thathere is this sacred temple of
democracy or I and many otherssee is sacred and, and to see it
(22:55):
being attacked in that way,certainly brought back concerns
that we have and concerns of howthings are divisive right now.
And we in architecture, probablyare more aware of it in historic
architecture, because of thestories that many of these sites
have. And some are difficulthistories and others are, are
(23:20):
really good histories. Werehelping the congregation of St.
Mark's AME Church in Topeka,Kansas, a small black
congregation that has receivedsome federal dollars and and why
is this church significant?
Well, it's because ReverendOliver Brown was the pastor of
this church. And Reverend OliverBrown was one of the plaintiffs
(23:41):
in Brown versus speak of Boardof Education, the historic Civil
Rights legislation that changednot only education in the US,
but also across the world. Andas another symbol of what can
happen, and the need for thesestories to be told, and the need
for people to be able toexperience the sights to me, is
(24:02):
extremely important. Because ifwe're not careful, history can
often repeat itself and repeatitself in a in a negative way.
Nancy Goldenberg (24:15):
Yeah, and I think one of the reasons for
preserving the more embarrassingor the negative aspects of our
history, as Van said, it's sothat we don't repeat them but
but there's a lot of denialthese days, about events even
having happened and I'm thinkingof people that deny the
Holocaust, for example, if youkeep the physical relics of
(24:37):
those stories, then there's aphysical monument. There's
something that says yes, thisreally did happen. It's not
something that we like it's nota good thing, but you can't deny
it because here's here's thephysical manifestation of what
happened. That's one of the oneof the reasons that I think
preservation at the Nevada TestSite is important because it
(24:59):
shows us that, yeah, we had acold war, we did a lot of
nuclear testing. These are therelics. It's one of the reasons
why remnants of the Berlin Wallwere maintained, so that you can
preserve that history. Andhopefully, you know, we don't go
down that way anymore.
Julia Manglitz (25:16):
As someone who kind of got started in
preservation or got her first,you know, her first project,
basically in preservationworking on buildings that really
represent I thinkunderrepresented groups and
populations. I'm personallyexcited about some of the social
(25:37):
changes, because I think it'stelling a fuller story about who
we are, and making a fullerstory about the parts and pieces
that make up a place. And Ithink that that's important,
because I think it's importantfor people to see their
realities and their historiesreflected in their world, and
(26:00):
recognized, I also see thatthere's a lot we could and
should be learning. You know,the other big issue I think
we're facing is, is climatechange, and looking at buildings
that have dealt with climate inways that use less energy. I
think there are a lot of lessonsin durability, and impact on our
(26:23):
environment that we can learnfrom historic buildings of all
ages, especially as we start tolook at the impact that carbon
has on our environment, and theimpact that we have on water and
air quality. I think there are alot of strategies that we've
kind of forgotten about, thatare embodied in some historic
buildings that might proveuseful in thinking about new
(26:45):
ways to interact with ournatural environment, and reusing
a lot of our existing buildings,I think is going to continue to
be an important aspect ofmitigating our impact on the
environment.
Megan Brock (26:58):
Julia brings up a great point about the connection
between historic preservationand sustainability. What role
does sustainability have in yourwork? And what are some of the
challenges and opportunitiesyou've encountered?
Vance Kelley (27:11):
Historic preservation isn't stagnant.
It's not about living in the inthe past, it's not about
stopping progress. What we'redealing with, of course, is
trying to make sure that theexisting building stock has a
future. And we understand thatbuildings have to change over
time, you have to of course,look at what you have,
(27:34):
understand what you have what'ssignificant about what you have,
and then make sure that thebuilding can function for
today's purposes. And that doesmean also then making sure that
what we do within that historicbuilding takes into account the
things that are so significant.
And today when we're dealingwith environmental issues, and,
and climate change, andrenewable energy, all of that
(27:57):
can be incorporated into thework that we do in preserving
historic buildings with veryenergy efficient systems
nowadays, but when you look atit simplistically, think of
recycling these buildings. Andif we didn't recycle them, if we
didn't reuse them, all of thatenergy and hard work that was
(28:19):
put into putting those buildingstogether, would be lost, lost to
a landfill. So when you look atthe big picture, it's a pretty
simple concept that historicpreservation really is looking
at it from an environmentalimpact, those are decisions that
we really need to make in orderto make sure that these
(28:40):
buildings can function and meetthe needs of a modern society.
And those are all the detailsthat we as design professionals
are able to help influence andmake sure that we're we're
headed and treating thebuildings in the in the right
direction.
Nancy Goldenberg (28:58):
Yeah, and I'll add to that. Preservation really
is sustainability. I remembergoing into an interview maybe 15
years ago and having having themask, could you comment on
sustainability versuspreservation? And it's like,
wait a minute, it's the samething. We're recycling
buildings, where we're savingall that embodied carbon, it is
(29:23):
inherently highly sustainable.
Plus, if you're just looking atsustainability as meeting LEED
requirements, it gets a littledicey here because
unfortunately, it doesn't reallygive you enough credit for whole
building recycling. Gives yousome but not enough on library
and quartz which is a buildingin Sacramento. We achieved LEED
(29:44):
silver, we did not replace thewindows, they remained single
glazed, we did put a low E filmon those windows to cut down on
the heat gain, which iscertainly an issue in
Sacramento, and added mechoshades, the veterans building
here in San Francisco thatachieved LEED Gold. And again,
(30:05):
we kept the windows, they werenot double glazed. But we
achieved a high level of evenwith the lead system, we
achieved a pretty high level.
Another thing is that manyhistoric buildings were
constructed before modernmechanical systems were created.
And so they have a lot ofinherent qualities that help to
(30:28):
achieve reasonable climatecontrol without the modern
mechanical system, things likeceiling fans and transom windows
in corridors that that allowedcross ventilation, things like
that, that were smart ways ofachieving user comfort without
using a lot of energy.
Unknown (30:48):
And speaking to
Joy Coleman (30:49):
that, I think that energy efficiency is important.
But also, I think that settingup expectations of physical
comfort is also effective. Sowhen we're talking about the
natural ventilation, the reasonwe've gotten away from that, in
the past, you know, 50 years isthat we want to control
(31:12):
temperature and humidity in thisvery tight range. And I don't
know that that is sustainable,or all that important. Really,
if it's 95 degrees outside doesit really have to be 68, inside,
let's maybe shift ourexpectations with the
temperature outside. If it'ssummertime, it should be warmer
(31:36):
inside, then the temperature itis on the inside in the
wintertime. Also, don't let thewindows be thrown away. That's
just like, you're never gonnaget them back. And then new
windows, you might think they'remore energy efficient. But think
of all that energy that was thatwent into making them and
(31:57):
shipping them to the buildinglocation. And then they're going
to wear out quicker than the oldgrowth wood windows at least.
And you're going to have toreplace them again. So you have
to think about all the energy,not just the energy the building
is using right now.
Megan Brock (32:15):
Nancy seems to have hit the nail on the head here.
When you're talking aboutsustainability and historic
buildings. Ask not what you cando for the building, ask what
the building can do for you.
It's an interesting way to lookat it. So looking forward in
this field, how do you all seepreservation changing?
Kim Butt (32:33):
Well, the first thought that comes to my mind is
that now we have a whole newgeneration of buildings coming
online that people are going tohave to be convinced are worth
preserving. And the 60s, itstarted with convincing people
that Victorians were special andunique and needed to be saved.
And now we have Mid CenturyModern coming of age, you know,
(32:57):
50 years is that is the ageright? That's, that's what we
were we start looking at thingswhich you get a lot of people
saying that's not historic 50years, please. But that that is
the kind of accepted timeframethat of which you can start
looking back and understandingwhether something really was
significant to architecture toits history, its people.
Vance Kelley (33:22):
The changes that occurred through architecture
and architectural design overtime, are affecting how Nancy
and I and joy and Kim look atthese historic buildings.
Because a building built in thelate 1890s was constructed of
(33:43):
maybe similar material asbuildings built in the 50s 60s
or 70s, even but how it wasbuilt, and how it was
constructed is a lot different.
And so as we go forward, asprofessionals, we need to
understand how building designand construction changed over
time, so that we can help ourclients understand what they're,
(34:05):
they're dealing with. And soHistoric Preservation isn't
stagnant. Like I said before, itis something that continues to
evolve because it's a reflectionof our past and as the building
industry change, design andarchitecture change. So is
historic preservation.
Nancy Goldenberg (34:26):
In addition to preserving buildings that were
built, after I was born, whichwe're starting to do, I think
we'll have better diagnostictools. We've I'm already seeing
that. I mean, even in the last10 years, we've got a lot more
tools we can use when we aredoing those explorations that we
(34:48):
were just talking aboutsustainability will become even
more important. And then anotherthing that that I'm beginning to
see is that there will be abroader understanding of and
focus on preservation of nonmaterial or non physical aspects
of culture, I mean, here in SanFrancisco, for example, we've
already got a landmark businessprogram. And that acknowledges
(35:13):
businesses that have been aroundfor, you know, 20 or 30 years.
They're an important part of ourcity. Also, not just the
buildings that the businessesreside in, I've been to lectures
about preserving other aspectsof culture, like song and dance.
And so I think that's going to,we're going to see more of that
in the future.
Joy Coleman (35:33):
Things are changing, politically, the
history that you have learned,and you have been told that has
been invented by whoever iswriting the history, you know,
is that more important thananother history? So I think
maybe it's going to broaden theconversation and what's
(35:53):
considered historicallysignificant and not always tied
to a physical structure or abuilding. But I think that the
whole movement started, not onlyto save historic buildings, but
to preserve the physicalremnants of the history of a
place.
Megan Brock (36:13):
Fantastic points.
As we head into what's next inhistoric preservation, what do
you want others to know? What isyour advice?
Kim Butt (36:22):
I think I have what I would say to a client or any or
a building owner is not to fearpreservation or fear
regulations. There are a lot ofpeople just think you're not
going to let me do anything withmy building. I don't want to
deal with a historic building.
This is it's scary, it's peopleare going to tell me what to do.
(36:45):
And I would just say, let's,let's look at it as an
opportunity to enhance thisgorgeous building or to move
forward. But I just Iunfortunately, see a lot of
misunderstanding and fear aboutwhat it means to work with a
historic building. There's a lotof really great opportunities
available and working withsomething that's existing, it's
(37:07):
better for our planet to use anexisting building, then put it
in the landfill and build newand you can learn from them. And
so many ways.
Julia Manglitz (37:19):
Since they talked a lot to owners, I'm
going to speak to young folkswho maybe you're interested in
getting into this, be curious,don't be afraid to go around and
touch materials and tap on them.
Read, get every take everychance you have to get your
hands dirty, and understand howthings are put together. Because
it is so important in what wedo, and trying to analyze what's
(37:41):
there, and what's possible andwhat's not possible. Just never
stop asking questions and beingcurious.
Megan Brock (37:51):
Great advice. Thank you everyone for joining me
today. TreanorHL will beparticipating in National
Preservation month allthroughout May on social media,
sharing some of our favoritebuildings and their unique
histories. See episode notes orvisit treanorhl.com to learn
more about how we've helped ourclients with historic space
solutions that fit their uniqueneeds.
(38:13):
Until next time, thank you forjoining us on this episode of
TreanorHL talks. TreanorHL is anational architecture planning
and design firm located in theUnited States. The company holds
a firm belief in sharingresources and insights with
professionals clients andbuilding users to shape the
space we use to live and grow aspeople. For more information
(38:35):
visit treanorhl.com That'streanorhl.com.
reanrhl.com.
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