May 1, 2025 • 46 mins
What separates good leaders from exceptional ones?
The answer might be simpler—and harder—than we think. In this illuminating conversation with leadership expert Kevin Eikenberry, Chief Potential Officer of the Kevin Eikenberry Group and host of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, we dig into the critical skill of flexibility that so many leaders understand conceptually but struggle to practice.
Kevin reveals why most new leaders get trapped in rigid thinking patterns from the start. Promoted for technical expertise rather than leadership ability, they feel compelled to have immediate answers—creating a pattern of quick decisions based on limited perspective. This pattern becomes particularly problematic in today's complex world where old solutions rarely fit new problems.
Using the powerful metaphor of a mature tree, Kevin reframes the relationship between consistency and flexibility. Much like a tree with strong roots yet flexible branches, effective leaders remain consistent in their values and purpose while adapting their methods to changing circumstances. "We should be consistent in our what and why and flexible in our how," he explains, cutting through the false choice between being principled or adaptable.
Kevin’s Episode Links:
1. The Kevin Eikenberry Group: https://kevineikenberry.com
2. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevineikenberry/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Simon Kardynal (00:07):
I would like to begin this episode by
acknowledging that I am locatedin Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, and
I am privileged and honoured tolive and learn on the unceded,
unsurrendered territory of theAnishinaabe Algonquin Nation.
Glen (00:24):
Hello, you're listening to Trench Leadership
From the Front, produced byiglen studios, a show for
emerging leaders from allprofessions to hear from other
leaders who have led from thefront, made the mistakes, had
the triumphs and are stilllearning along the way.
And now here's your host, SimonKardynal.
Simon Kardynal (00:52):
Hello and welcome to another episode of
Trench Leadership (00:54):
A Podcast From the Front, a show for
emerging leaders, and this isn'tjust another episode that we
have in our episodic line.
This is a B onus Episode withKevin Eikenberry, and I'm so
excited to be able to do thisbecause, Kevin, we and I you and
I, we chatted a little bitearlier.
Well, and I say a little bitearlier, I mean over a year ago,
we recorded an episode and, forall kinds of reasons, we
(01:16):
weren't able to get that outthere to the public.
But I'm ecstatic to be able tosay to people that not only are
you out there for the bonusepisode to talk about flexible
leadership, we're also going tohave the other topic that we
talked about that we recorded ayear ago.
But that's for people to go tospotify and apple to pull those
episodes up.
But right now, as leaders, weoften hear about how vital it is
(01:39):
for leaders to be flexible, andit's true.
We all need to be fluid indoing all the things we do in
life and as a leader, thatfluidity is, in my opinion, the
secret sauce to being asuccessful leader.
That sounds great, but thereality is that being a flexible
leader is much more difficultto do in practice than to just
say it.
(02:00):
And so in this episode we'regoing to talk to Kevin and we're
going to have a great episode.
We're going to chat about allthe different ways how we can
avoid being inflexible, how wecan increase our flexibility,
and maybe we'll have some funalong the way.
But, as always, no one wants tohear from me.
They want to hear from theguests.
So with that, I'd like to goahead and welcome in Kevin.
(02:20):
Hey, kevin, how's it going outthere?
Kevin Eikenberry (02:23):
Simon, thanks for having me.
I'm glad to be back with you tohave this conversation.
This has been.
I was nodding my head, agreeingwith what you were saying in
the intro, so I'm excited forour conversation.
Simon Kardynal (02:32):
I completely agree with you.
And then, when you were noddingyour head, I was thinking to
myself wow, this is it, I'msaying the right things, and
that's a great boost ofconfidence for me.
So fantastic, Kevin.
Listen, before we get into it,why don't we just take a moment
and tell people about yourself?
Who is Kevin?
What is Kevin?
Kevin Eikenberry (02:49):
Well, like all of us, we have a lot of labels
that we might put on ourselves,and some of them might be
helpful.
I'm a husband, I'm a father,I'm a business owner, I'm an
author, a speaker, a trainer, acoach, a farm kid For those in
the United States.
I'm a boilermaker I went toPurdue.
(03:09):
So there's lots of labels thatyou could put on me, I suppose,
and those I would put on myself,I suppose, as well.
But I am in the business, andour team is in the business of
helping leaders make a biggerpositive difference in the world
, because leadership is thebiggest lever that organizations
can to create better results,and when leaders are leading
(03:31):
closer to their capacity and totheir potential, they can make a
real difference for theirorganizations and for the folks
that they lead.
Simon Kardynal (03:42):
Absolutely, and I would hope, and I really do
believe, that most leaders theywant to make a difference.
More often than not, the goalis to not self-aggrandize, not
get all the accolades.
It's about trying to make areal, tangible difference in the
lives of ourselves and the teamthat we're fortunate enough to
work with and the organizationthat we're connected to.
Would you agree with that?
Kevin Eikenberry (04:10):
I have long said, and I say this about
people in general.
I say this to leaders abouttheir folks.
I say here's Kevin's belief 95%of people want to do great work
95% of the time Not everybody,not every day and I would say
the same thing about leaders.
Like, nearly all of us havegood intention.
Nearly all of us really want todo really well.
One of the challenges is wedon't always know what really
well or really good or successlooks like, and perhaps this
(04:31):
conversation will help to unpackthat for people a little bit,
because, as you hinted, thereare some leaders that might have
a little bit of an ego thinggoing, and yet I would actually
say all of us as leaders have alittle of that that we might
need to be aware of.
Having an ego isn't all bad,but it can get out of hand and
become a problem rather than anaid.
My belief is that nearly all ofus as leaders and certainly
(04:54):
everyone who's listening to thisright, like no one's listening
to this podcast because theywant to suck as a leader.
Let's just be honest, right?
So all of us here certainlywant that to be the case, but
here's the other side of that.
The other side of that issociety, and I'll talk about
that in terms of Western society.
Which is what I know the mostabout is that you know, people
(05:15):
have grown up in their life andin the movies, the business
people and the leaders are oftenthe bad guys.
And people have all thesethings in their head like, well,
we're working nine to five andI'm going to get off and take
this job and shove it.
And you know, they made a movie, Simon, called Horrible Bosses,
and it was so successful theymade a sequel.
Simon Kardynal (05:39):
I watched them both all the time they never
made a movie called Awesome BossTotally true.
Kevin Eikenberry (05:45):
So while I believe that most leaders do
want to do right by theirorganizations and their teams,
that their intentions are good,it's far from a myth that not
every leader is really, at theend of the day, awesome,
regardless of their intentions.
Simon Kardynal (06:02):
And that's the kick awesome, regardless of
their intentions.
And that's the kick when we'rein these leadership roles,
especially as emerging leaders.
We're into these new roles.
I say it all the time the vastmajority of the time we are put
into those first leadershiproles, it's not because we've
proven ourselves, because of ourvast leadership experience,
it's because we've provenourselves and our technical
skillset.
And the example I love to useis when I was a really great
(06:22):
welder that he came to me andsaid hey, Simon, you should
totally lead a group of welders.
That in no way means that I amgood at leading a group of
welders.
That's a fact Like what areyour thoughts on that?
Kevin Eikenberry (06:34):
Well, it happens everywhere.
It happens with welders.
The best accountant becomes theaccounting manager, right, the
best salesperson becomes thesales leader.
We could go right on down theline.
And it causes the problem thatyou just described.
It causes the problem thatwe've tried to help people with
my book From Bud to Boss, andthat transition from being a
peer to being the leader, movingfrom last week we had a beer
(06:57):
together, next week I'm doingyour performance review.
That's hard.
I would say it's the hardesttransition of our careers.
But there's another challengeinside of that that maybe we can
unpack a little bit.
And here it is that we werepromoted because we were really
good at the other job, we were areally good welder, but also
because we had a lot of theanswers, like we were a subject
(07:20):
matter expert.
And so we, whether it'sconscious or not, we feel like
once we're the boss, we'resupposed to have all the answers
, we're supposed to know all thestuff.
When people have a question, weshould have an immediate answer
and that, by the way, there isa right answer, like two plus
two, we know the answer too.
(07:49):
We know the answer.
So that whole thing right.
There is one of the things thatkeeps us from being flexible as
a leader, because we feel likewe're supposed to have an answer
, so we have an answer, and sowe don't get curious enough
because, listen, we got promotedbecause we had answers and so
now we're expected to be thesuper answer person.
And all of that has unintendedconsequences in our heads, in
our internal expectations andoften what we think we're
(08:13):
supposed to do as a leader.
We lean into that stuff atfirst in the transition, because
that is what we know, that'sthe solid footing we've got.
We have to figure out the rest.
But even as we start to figureout the people stuff and the
other leadership stuff, thatother thing lingers and that
other thing is sitting there formany of us as a big impediment
to us actually becoming moreflexible as a leader.
Simon Kardynal (08:37):
Yeah, and that inflexibility is paralyzing,
especially once it starts totake over.
And especially in myexperiences and what I've seen
with other newer leaders, is,once we start to stumble and
don't know those answers, mostoften we start to fall on what
we know, and that might not beanything when it comes to
leadership, because we have beenplaced into those roles and
(08:57):
that becomes a problem.
What are you thinking?
Kevin Eikenberry (09:00):
So we feel like we're supposed to be
infallible and so if we don'thave answers, we will often sort
of act bolder Right.
What we will definitely do isgo to our natural habit and,
(09:20):
being intentional andconsidering that there may be
other things for us to thinkabout or try as opposed to just
sort of diving in to what we'vealways done, our natural
experience, our learnedexperience and, oh, by the way,
what we've seen from otherleaders which unfortunately
sometimes aren't great rolemodels.
Simon Kardynal (09:42):
Yeah, absolutely .
And, as I'll be honest, earlier, earlier today I was listening
to your latest episode from yourpodcast called the remarkable
leadership podcast, and one ofthe hosts you had was a Dr.
Christy Smith.
In the episode, the two of youwere chatting about contextual
competence and that reallystruck a chord with me, because
I think there's something to besaid about having a competence
(10:03):
and understanding the context ofwhy we're doing things, and I'd
like to know your thoughts onthis that it's the leader's role
to take the time to get thecontext of something, not just
blindly follow.
I'm in the military so, as onecould imagine, there's an
expectation to certain degreesto just blindly follow the legal
orders that I've been given.
But in my role at my rank levelnow, because I'm a little bit
(10:25):
on an age, there's anexpectation for me to know that
context so that before I make adecision, I know why I'm making
a decision.
Does that make sense?
Am I rambling a little bit?
Kevin Eikenberry (10:36):
No, a hundred percent.
So in the book FlexibleLeadership there's three
components to being a flexibleleader from our perspective, and
the middle one of those iscontext.
What is the context?
So let me give you everybodythe simplest way to think about
this, and that is that someonecomes into your office with a
question and they need you torespond or decide or do
(10:59):
something as the leader.
They're wanting your advice,perhaps, and they're looking at
you across the table or acrossthe desk and your first thought
is well, my answer depends.
So if you say, or when you say,it depends, which we've all
done, what does it depend?
It depends on the context.
(11:20):
So that's a moment when ourbrain is open enough to say,
well, the answer, or the bestanswer, or the answer that would
give us the best results orgives us the best odds, well, it
depends.
So what does it depend on?
See this situation fromdifferent perspectives and say,
(11:43):
well, given that this is thedirection we should take, which
might be the same direction youwould have taken, naturally,
habitually, but not always.
And so when we have that momentof well, it depends, we're
fundamentally saying it dependson what the context.
And so recognizing that contextmatters a lot is step one, and
(12:10):
then step two, having a way tosort of read that map so we can
then make different choices orat least give different choices
to be for consideration.
And I've come to believe thatcontext makes us a lot smarter.
To believe that context makesus a lot smarter, right, and
that when we're, number one,willing to look at context and
then make decisions based onthat context rather than based
(12:33):
on our comfort, past experienceor auto-response habits, we'll
get better results.
Simon Kardynal (12:41):
I completely agree with you.
Often I can be heard sayingespecially when I'm talking
about getting a bit of a storyto get to a point, I will say
the context matters, so thelittle details, and one of the
things that I think I've gottenbetter at throughout my career
is relaying what information isimportant for the context of
whatever is happening and whatisn't.
Do you have any advice forfolks who are now thinking, hey,
(13:03):
maybe I need to provide moreinformation to give that full
contextual experience, or theconcept rather, how might a
leader look at that?
How do they do that?
Kevin Eikenberry (13:14):
So two things.
Let's talk first about how do Ihelp give better context to
others and then, second, talk alittle bit more about how can we
make sure we have that context.
So what I would say is andagain back to if we're a new
leader or we've been in theleadership role for a while,
oftentimes we know stuff and sowe assume everyone else knows
(13:37):
the same stuff, like it'sobvious.
To us, it's like profoundknowledge and we need to step
back.
So here's the situation andhere's why I'm suggesting we go
this way.
Or here's the situation thatleads to the decision that we're
making figure that everyoneelse knows it.
(14:07):
That is when, unintentionally,we end up being a leader that
people may see as being overlydominant or overly directive,
because you haven't given themthe context to understand how
you got where you got.
So that's the first thing, andthe other thing I would say is
that in the world that's moreuncertain and changing and is
more uncertain and more complexthan ever, the context that we
used to live and work in waspretty clear and straightforward
.
We had a best practice, we hada process, we sort of knew the
(14:29):
cause and effect and, as aleader, oftentimes we knew those
things.
That's not the way the world isanymore most of the time, and
so the world is more complex.
So there are things that weknow, we don't know, or there
are things we don't even knowthat we don't know.
That's what I would call complex.
Or there are things we don'teven know.
That we don't know.
That's what I would callcomplex.
And so we have to then start toferret those things out.
And if we try to treat it as ifit's clear, we end up with
(14:54):
things like all of the mistakesorganizations have made in a
return to office, when all theywere trying to do is take it
back to the way it used to be.
But it's never going to be theway it used to be again.
The context will never be clearlike it once was, because in a
weekend we changed the societalview of work.
Simon Kardynal (15:11):
Yeah, exactly.
Kevin Eikenberry (15:12):
And we can't unravel that.
And so for leaders to assumethat we're just going to go back
to where we were and I'm notpicking on any individual leader
there's lots of reasons whyleaders, maybe of my age, for
example might say, well, like,let's go back to what I know
that worked for me, but whatwill work for my people too?
They're not just being oldschool and they're not just
(15:34):
being stubborn.
They're trying to get successfor others in the way they got
success for themselves, Exceptthat the context isn't the same,
which means the way we did itbefore won't work or might have
unintended consequences.
Dominance might fall indirections we didn't think about
(15:57):
.
If you want to know inretrospect if something was a
complex context, think aboutsomething that you did a few
months ago and look back at itand say, well, man, if I had
known those things, I'd havedone something different.
Well, now you understand thepicture better than you did then
.
Right, but maybe then, if wehad stopped and asked a few more
questions, engaged people alittle bit more, looked around
(16:18):
the corner a little bit more,we'd have had a better picture
of the context we might have hadbetter success.
Simon Kardynal (16:25):
I totally agree with you.
I have two stories which will,coincidentally, help with the
context of where I want to gonext.
So I remember when I was ayoung private in the infantry
because I started in theCanadian Army and my sergeant
who was the section commander sothe person in charge of the 10
of us was a hard ass For allintents and purposes he was
gung-ho.
He had 10 of us was a hard assfor all intents and purposes.
(16:51):
He was gung-ho.
He had been in the military along time and the training that
he had received was just go hardand if you're treating them
rough, go a little bit rougherand that will make them tougher
and rougher and thereforeeventually turn them into me a
good hard soldier.
Well, flash forward a bunch ofyears.
I mean that thought.
That process is not completelygone, because there are some now
.
I can't believe I'm about tosay this.
I am the old guard of that oldattitude and there are still
(17:12):
people from my time in themilitary and they're still
carrying that thought processforward.
It's hard to let that go andsome people they just can't, for
whatever reason, and that'sfine, uh, but some it's just
that is their contextual beliefof what success?
How to make someone be asuccessful soldier and a
successful leader eventually.
It's interesting how that worksitself out.
(17:33):
What are your thoughts on that?
Kevin Eikenberry (17:37):
I call that the hazing syndrome, right?
Well, it worked for me, so itworked for everybody else
Besides, I had to go throughthat pain, so everyone else had
to go through that pain too.
I think there's a little ofthat.
But I think the other thing isthat we can't be flexible if we
don't know what our options are.
And so if that's all I've everseen and, by the way, and you
know this as well as I do, thatexample doesn't only happen in
the military and I'll take it astep further that I was never in
(18:04):
the military.
Right, you're in Canada, I'm inthe US.
I can still say thank you foryour service.
And what I would say is that,from people that I've talked to
who were in or are in theservice, the world in which they
serve in the military is quitedifferent than it was 15, 20
years ago.
When you started.
It was very different, it wasclearer, there were less shades
of gray.
(18:31):
And so, quite honestly, when wego back to context, if the
situation is really clear andbest practices we know are going
to work and there's no, itdepends moments then leading in
that command and control way notnecessarily the roughness of it
, but leading in a command andcontrol way works just fine.
There's a reason why.
That's how much of leadershiphappened and worked 50, 60, 70
(18:53):
years ago, because the world wasclearer, the world wasn't as
complex.
But as we move into a worldwith more unknowns and more of
it being unordered rather thansimply ordered, then those
approaches don't work in thosecontexts.
(19:13):
And so why are people stillthere?
Well, that's the model they had, that's the habit they have,
and they're saying well, itworks for me, it'll work for
them.
Well, except that the world'snot the same anymore.
Again, no disrespect.
And to your point earlier, it'snot like people are trying to
(19:35):
be poor, it's not like theydon't want to be effective
leaders.
Their belief, their mindsetsays this is what I know, so
this is what I'm going to do.
Simon Kardynal (19:47):
Exactly and I completely agree with you and
everything you're saying there.
As I was flashing forward theexample I gave, I was a young
private, it's 1994.
I'm okay with admitting thatand then flash forward a number
of years.
I joined the Air Force and Iget promoted to Master Corporal
In the Canadian military.
That's our first formal levelof leadership.
We're generally put in chargeof a group of five to seven
(20:08):
people.
There's some exceptions to that, of course, for the Canadian
military all thenon-commissioned members.
Every time we get promoted it'smandatory we have to take a
leadership course on how to, intheory, get ready to, not to
lead in the level we're at, butlead at the next level.
So should someone go away, thenwe're able to take one step up,
and so the leadership course iscalled the junior.
(20:30):
At the time it was called thejunior leadership course and it
was to teach us how to lead agroup of seven to 10 people the
next size up.
When I was going through in2007, I remember very clearly
that they were talking when thelesson was don't be a
transactional leader.
That was the name of the lessonand that was because at the
time the Canadian military was.
(20:51):
Their minds were blown away totalk about transformational
leadership, that a leader,excuse me could be talking with
a subordinate and that's theterm we used, not at a
subordinate right and have anactual conversation and still
relay an order in an effective,efficient manner.
And so transformationalleadership, that was the talk of
(21:11):
the town.
And then, as we flash forward,quite a number of years later,
we've heard, of course, we'vetalked about servant leadership
and humble leadership and allthe different styles of
leadership that are out there,and I'm not knocking any one of
them.
The problem we've run into ispeople will tend to, especially
when we give training, noteducation, training, specific
training to how to do a job.
(21:32):
The challenge my experience hasbeen specific training to how
to do a job.
The challenge my experience hasbeen the challenge has been
that we get stuck in that Okay,I've been trained to be a
transformational leader, I don'tknow how to do anything else
because I haven't been shownanything else.
That limits our ability to beflexible.
That's my perception.
What do you think on that?
Kevin Eikenberry (21:48):
Well, what?
Simon Kardynal (21:49):
it does all that .
Kevin Eikenberry (21:50):
But there's something else that it does,
because now I am saying tomyself not anything other than I
am a transformational leader.
Like I bought in, I get it.
So now, that is my identity.
And so even now, if I seesomething else like no, no, no,
no, I'm a transformationalleader.
That's who I am as a leader.
(22:12):
And if, once I have an identity, it's even harder, for it's now
, it's not just me tryingsomething else Like no, that's
counter to who I am, right.
So that could be about thingslike humble leadership, servant
leader, transformational leader,facilitative leader, all those
things.
And so there was probably anassessment that you took to tell
you how transformational youwere.
Simon Kardynal (22:35):
And so it was yeah.
Kevin Eikenberry (22:37):
And again there's no disrespect or or all
of what those models are tryingto do are helpful until they
work so well that it becomessomeone's identity, right.
So the same thing could be trueIf you've taken a disc
assessment, if you've taken aDISC assessment.
You've taken a strengths finder.
You've taken and, by the way,we have a DISC assessment we
(22:58):
sell DISCpersonalityTestingcom.
Like you can go there and getDISC stuff from us, but we work
really hard to say this isn'tyour style, but you have a lot
of these traits.
Like there's a differencebetween saying I'm a person with
a lot of D traits and saying Iam Because the second is now my
(23:19):
identity, which means here'swhat that means from a
leadership perspective.
This is how I lead everybody.
You might as well get used toit.
Like this is how it's going togo, Like that's just my nature,
that's how I lead, that's how Iwas taught to lead, that's what
leadership looks like to me, Allof those things, and if that's
where my head is and the far endof that spectrum is that's my
(23:41):
identity, it becomesextraordinarily hard to shift.
So you could say a cynic wouldsay well, Kevin, aren't you
selling a book to say to be aflexible leader?
Yes, except there's not a modelfor it.
It's simply a framework to saythat, oh, I have a plethora of
approaches.
What's the best one for me touse in this context?
(24:05):
That's the difference.
It's not prescriptive, it'sproviding you with options to
(24:25):
help you move past that identityor automatic response for an
episode that you feel is vitalfor emerging leaders.
Leave the idea in the commentsection and, if your topic is
chosen, you will have theopportunity to join us as a
co-host during the recordingsession.
So drop us a note and let'stalk.
This podcast is made possibleby listeners like you, and if
(24:49):
you feel we've earned it, pleasetell your friends and leave a
review to help us grow ourfollowing.
And now back to the show.
Simon Kardynal (24:59):
You know, as you're saying that, I'm thinking
back to when I was doing mymaster of arts degree and in
that the program happened to usethe Myers Briggs program.
When I did the program I hadnever heard of any of these
different types of programs.
I was very new and actually inhindsight I was really happy
about that because it let mecome into it really clearly
minded and open to the wholething.
(25:20):
So I did it and I'm an ESTJ andso that's all fine and dandy.
I remember we all did thequestions, we show up at the
course, we're doing our thing,and then they gave everyone our
results as one of our classes.
Immediately there were two campsthe I's, the introverts, and
the E's, the extroverts.
We spent the next two weekskind of chucking crap at each
(25:41):
other because you're anintrovert versus I'm an
extrovert, all kinds of jokesand stuff, and at the time it
was all meant to get humor.
There were probably some folksthat took that a little bit more
to heart.
That's okay, we figured it out.
But what it took me a while torealize was that, myers-briggs,
those four letters were notdefining who I was, not as a
leader, not as a person.
(26:01):
It was an assessment to help meunderstand portions of my
personality, but not definingwho I was.
And that was a big deal.
Kevin Eikenberry (26:10):
We are far more than four letters, a color,
an animal or whatever theassessment is that you've taken.
That doesn't mean they're nothelpful, but they're only
helpful to a point.
To use Myers-Briggs or DISC astwo of the most common in that
area, how they most help us isto help us understand our first
(26:31):
response or natural tendency,which doesn't have to be who we
are.
It doesn't mean just becauseyou are more extroverted doesn't
mean there's never a time thatyou want to have some quiet, and
it doesn't mean that you can'tenjoy a vacation on the beach by
(26:52):
yourself.
Your first tendency might wantto be with a group and to take a
class rather than read a book,and even those things are like
it's silly to say that, and yetthose are the kinds of examples
that we sometimes use todescribe those differences.
Those don't describe us.
They talk about our firstnatural tendencies, and knowing
(27:13):
that is super helpful.
And if we want to be a moreflexible leader, it's important
to know our natural tendenciesso that we can say wait a minute
, is that serving us right nowor not?
Simon Kardynal (27:25):
Yeah, absolutely so.
A number of episodes back.
I went and I did a series on alot of the different personality
tests.
I ended up doing eight of thesedifferent ones.
I had episodes for each one ofthem.
I did disc, I did all thecolors and all the different
things and it was fantastic andwell, ultimately there were a
lot of similarities.
I what I noticed was, dependingon the mood I was in, depending
(27:47):
on if I felt rushed, dependingon what was going on around me,
it ske skewed some of theanswers.
Kevin Eikenberry (27:53):
I will say the assessment is based on X number
of questions and how youanswered those or thought about
those in the moment.
Right?
So when people do a discassessment, like with ours,
sometimes people will say, well,I, but I was doing it thinking
about work.
Well, our instruction is justto just answer them naturally,
without much thought.
Instruction is just to justanswer them naturally, without
(28:15):
much thought.
And yet the minute that we say,well, at work, I or any of those
things, or I was tired or I wasfrustrated, or I was a little
angry about something else, likeall that's going to impact
those responses.
So to think that then we'regoing to take an algorithm or
turn that out and say, voila,simon, this is who you are, it's
kind of silly.
The whole thing with a model isthis, and that is that a model
(28:39):
is designed to simplifysomething more complex so that
we can put our arms around itand understand it.
The problem that we take isthen we take, and so there's
already nuance missing when wedo that.
Again, no disrespect to thesemodels.
Like they have great value aslong as we use them for what
they are as opposed to whatthey're not 100%.
(29:01):
So they nuance is lost for us tobe able to put our arms around
it.
But then when we turn that intoour identity and say I am a E
whatever you said, I am an ESTJwe took even more of the nuance
out.
And now we threw the model outand said, well, this is me, and
so that's the slippery slope.
(29:23):
So, for example, there areorganizations that and again,
regardless of these tools, andyou may be in an organization
that's done this, where we'veall taken the same assessment,
so we have some common language.
That's cool.
But now in our email subjectlines we have those, or we have
the people used to put them onthe on the doorways and they
walked into your, into theiroffice.
Well, now the slippery slopewe're going down to is now we're
(29:45):
just typecasting everybody andwe're we're.
We're sort of saying to eachother I am four letters, or I am
blue, or I'm yellow or whatever, and that slippery slope is a
challenge, and the further downthat slope we go, the less
likely or the harder it will befor us to flex.
Simon Kardynal (30:06):
Yeah, absolutely .
You know, when I was doing allthose different assessments, the
one commonality thing that Icame across and I don't even
know if I totally believe it Isaid Simon is a pragmatic leader
, okay, and that popped up quitea few times and I mean, all
right, I'll take that.
What I choose to get out ofthat is I get results.
It was an interesting thingthat that popped up all the time
(30:30):
.
However, when I had completedall of the different assessments
, the challenge I ran into waswhat I was doing when I was
going to make decisions.
I remember thinking am I makinga pragmatic decision?
Okay, how about I just make thedecision?
This hasn't changed who I am.
It was drastically affecting myability to be flexible and the
job I'm in now.
My role is to advise thecommanding officer of our
(30:52):
squadron how to do his job.
In this case, it happens to bea guy.
So if I'm questioning, if I'mmore thinking about, am I making
the decisions based off fourletters?
It's affecting my flexibility,which, ultimately, is not what
any of us need to be at theselevels of leadership, and
especially at a new leadershiplevel.
We need to be extra flexible tobe able to go forward.
(31:13):
Would you agree with that?
Do you have any thoughts onthat at all?
For sure, for sure.
Kevin Eikenberry (31:17):
And so.
So here's so if I can step backand answer that question kind
of through a different direction.
So in order for us to beflexible as a leader, we have to
recognize the value in doing it, and you said at the top of the
show that you know, we alsowant to be flexible and yet we
(31:40):
aren't always, for all thereasons that we've been
unpacking throughout thisconversation.
So, if we think it's a good ideabut we're not really doing it,
we got to get clearer about whatis the mindset of doing it to
start with.
Yeah, but we're not reallydoing it.
We got to get clearer aboutwhat is the mindset of doing it
to start with.
And so here's what I wouldsuggest to you that the tension
in your head and anyone's headright now, not necessarily in
(32:00):
your assignment, but in people'shead right now, might be this
well, flexible sounds good, butaren't I supposed to be
consistent?
to which I would say, when youframe it as I'm either
consistent or I'm flexible,you're asking the wrong question
.
I want you to imagine and,depending on where you are, if
(32:23):
you're driving you can't do this.
But if you can see a tree, lookat a tree like a mature tree.
If you can't, see it in yourmind's eye, if you're driving,
don't close your eyes to see itin your mind's eye, just keep
driving.
And here's the thing Imagine orthink about a mature tree.
We would say in lots of waysthat a mature tree is consistent
, like it's not moving, it's inthe same spot, it's stable, it's
(32:44):
consistent, it's strong.
And we would say man, those aregood things for leaders, but
look at that tree just a littlebit longer.
If there's a bit of a breeze,that tree is also flexible.
It's not consistent, stable orflexible, it's both.
So the tree is stable becauseit's rooted.
(33:04):
A leader is consistent orstable because of its roots.
What are our roots?
Our roots are our values, ourprinciples.
Our roots are our values, ourprinciples, our why, our mission
, our purpose.
So we should be consistent inour what and why and flexible in
our how and so it's a falsequestion to say should I be
(33:30):
consistent or should I?
because, see, once we have thatidentity thing, then we're doing
exactly what you were saying,simon.
Well, but is that what apragmatic leader would do?
I'm supposed to be pragmaticand so flexible on approach,
flexible on how, and so thefirst piece of that is
recognizing that the world, inmost cases for our work, is not
(33:56):
an either or it's not consistentor flexible.
It's consistent and flexible.
It's be willing to speak and bewilling to listen.
It's be focused on the customerand be focused on the team
member.
It's truth and grace, and allof those are just what I
(34:20):
described, our examples of whatwe call our flexors.
And so the ends of thoseflexors, the far ends of those
often defined by a style, arealmost always less than optimal,
like the far ends of thespectrum.
Here's an example for any and Iknow a lot of people listening
here are new leaders or, youknow, first-time leaders,
(34:43):
frontline leaders.
If that's you, this applies toall of us, but especially
applies to you I often will asknew leaders like what are the
mistakes that you've seen newleaders make?
And one of the things peoplesay is is we make too much
change too fast.
So either end of that, bothends of that, are less than
optimum.
The better answer is somewherein between that.
(35:04):
And so a flexible leaderrecognizes the tension between
those ends of that flexor andsays, given this context, where
do I need to be?
So I might move into leading abrand new team or a new team to
me and my nature might be tomake more change more quickly.
But what if I looked at thiscontext and say, well, maybe
with this team, maybe I don'tneed to.
(35:24):
Maybe I need to flex a littlebit more toward the status quo,
not never change anything, butmaybe I don't need to change
much right now, maybe I need towait a little longer.
The status quo, not neverchange anything.
Maybe I don't need to changemuch right now, maybe I need to
wait a little longer.
Maybe this organization isalready going through a major
(35:45):
change and adding more, eventhough it's important and useful
, isn't going to serve us rightnow.
Or maybe you've got anorganization that's kind of
stayed and a team that's kind ofstayed, kind of living in their
status quo, and you might likethat, that might be kind of good
for you, like that, but youneed to push them and move a
little more, change a littlemore rapidly, maybe even than
your personal preference orcomfort level, but that's what
(36:05):
the context tells us.
That's being a flexible leader.
Simon Kardynal (36:11):
You know, as you're talking about that, and
it reminds me of a couple ofdifferent things, and one of the
things I've learned as I'vegone through my leadership
journey and figuring out how tobe flexible, to realize that I
need to be a flexible leader inall the ways was learn how to
ask questions, and you knowthere are many documents and
many tools out there to talkabout how to ask the right
questions.
That's not where I'm going withthis.
(36:32):
I promise that's a whole otherpodcast series, I'm sure, but
I'd like to come back to when Iwas listening to your latest
episode and you were talkingabout contextual competency.
What I got thinking about wastalking about assumptive
competencies in that learning,when we're making assumptions
about things, what do I reallyknow and what am I making an
(36:53):
assumption about?
And if we go all the way backto the episode with the
expectation that we put onourselves to have all the
answers, often my experience hasbeen that assumptions will be
made and then we start makingdecisions based off of that.
What are your thoughts?
Kevin Eikenberry (37:07):
A hundred percent, and so one of the
things is that we, as humanbeings, we are really good at
pattern recognition.
So when we see the pattern, oh,that's what we need to do, like
once we see enough that thatreminds us of 17 other times,
then it must be like those 17other times.
Simon Kardynal (37:29):
Maybe A hundred percent.
Kevin Eikenberry (37:31):
Maybe right, and so that, by the way, that's
human nature, and patternrecognition is very powerful for
us.
We need it, but we've got to becareful with it, right?
So OK, so here's the thing.
I've seen this 17 times, but Ihaven't seen it in a couple of
years.
Has the world changed in thelast couple of years?
Yeah, are there differentpeople in the organization that
(37:52):
are involved in this?
Do you think they'reautomatically responding and
reacting and making exactly thesame decisions that the last 16
groups of people did?
The trend from the other 16 isuseful for us to take into
account.
I'm not saying to forget allthat, ignore your past
experience.
I'm saying well, we all know,you've probably all seen.
If you take the word assume andyou slice it up, it makes you
(38:18):
know there's a thing that itdoes to us.
Let's just put it this wayassuming doesn't serve us.
Agree and as leaders going backto the stuff we talked about
earlier oftentimes we will makethat assumption because we think
people want us to makedecisions now, be decisive, make
, help us moving forward.
We don't want to slow down.
Sometimes we need a speed bump,sometimes we need to stop just
for a second, take a pause.
And if we'll stop and take apause and look at that situation
(38:40):
a little bit longer, we mightvery quickly see that some of
the assumptions that we'remaking will melt.
Simon Kardynal (38:46):
Oh yeah.
And when that happens, Ibelieve that's the nexus point
where we can to be flexible, tosay, ok, maybe we need to take a
knee, maybe we need to stop,maybe we need to keep going, who
knows.
But that's about recognizingthose moments, that I believe,
where that flexibility comesinto play.
What are your thoughts?
Kevin Eikenberry (39:01):
A hundred percent, which goes back to what
I said about when you saveyourself.
Well, it depends.
If you assume this to look justlike the last 16, there's no,
it depends Like you're alreadypassed.
It depends, know, it depends,like you're already past it
depends.
You've jumped past it, right?
So come back and say well, whatcould it be?
So let me give you I like tothink of what I call and I don't
(39:24):
believe from a Google search, Idon't think anyone else has
ever coined this phrase, so I'mgoing to claim it what I call
plausible cause analysis.
The goal of plausible causeanalysis is not like root cause
analysis.
Root cause analysis, there's aroot cause and we're going to
find that thing.
With plausible cause analysis,all we're trying to do is say
what are plausible reasons whythis is happening.
(39:45):
So here's the simplest one thatcomes to my mind.
You're driving down the roadminding your own business and
all of a sudden, someone comeszooming past you.
You see them in the rear ofyour mirror and they're zooming
up behind.
You're on a four lane and yousee them swerving in and out.
They're going 20 miles an hourfaster than you.
They go flying by you andwhat's the first thing?
What's this crazy person?
This is not the Indianapolis 500.
(40:06):
That person is crazy.
Someone needs to pull them over.
That's possible.
I'm not questioning that.
That's not possible.
But what if you knew that thatyoung man who may have been the
picture who you had as I paintedthat word picture for you, that
(40:30):
that young man had his wifenext to him about to give birth
to their baby, would that changehow you thought about the way
he was driving?
It would absolutely change theway you thought about how he was
driving.
Does that mean that that cargoing by you has a pregnant
woman there?
No, does that mean that thatperson driving past you is a
crazy driver?
Maybe?
(40:50):
The thing is, there's all sortsof things it could be plausible
causes for this, and the minutewe lock into one and we take
action, we're not evenconsidering the possibility of
something different, which takesus back to your, to your
military peers and saying I'vegot to lead this way because
(41:11):
this is the way to do it.
It's's the only thing I've got,the only thing I've seen.
Simon Kardynal (41:15):
This is the way.
Kevin Eikenberry (41:16):
Well, it is the way right and so plausible
cause analysis says what are thepossible or plausible things
that could have led us to thispoint, and I'm not going to be
able to tell which one it is,but if I listed seven things it
could be, then let me make adecision based on what might
impact many of those rather thanthe one that I initially
(41:38):
thought.
Simon Kardynal (41:40):
I really love that, other than the fact that
when I was a younger driver, Iwas the guy that if someone cut
me off, I'm going to chase himdown and I'm going to teach him
a lesson.
And it took me, I'm going tosay, maturity and a little more
gray in my beard than I want toadmit about the realization that
I don't know what's going onwith that person.
Was it possible?
They're just a jerk?
Possible.
But, like you said, there couldbe any number of reasons.
(42:01):
But it also took me a long timeto realize that if I go and I
cut that person off because theycut me off, did they all of a
sudden learn a lesson and say oh, thank you, simon, I get it.
I now understand.
We don't know why they weredoing those things, so I don't
think that was the lesson theywere going to get.
Kevin Eikenberry (42:18):
Just saying the odds of that being the
lesson not high.
Simon Kardynal (42:22):
Yeah, I love to say I was doing it for the right
reason, but that's what I wastelling myself.
If I'm being completely honestwith myself, I knew I was also
now perpetuating the samejerkdom that was happening to me
potentially.
Yeah, listen, you know, kevin,we have had a great conversation
.
We've been chatting for I can'tbelieve it 45 minutes now about
flexible leadership, about notgetting stuck inside one
(42:44):
particular style of leader,being flexible in how we lead.
Before we wrap this up, ifpeople want to reach out to you,
how might they do that?
Kevin Eikenberry (42:54):
Well, you know , we have this thing called the
World Wide Web.
So let me give you a couple oflinks that if you wanted to
learn more about our company,you can just go to
KevinEikenberrycom.
I'll spell it Kevin E-I-K-E-N.
B, as in boy E-R-R-Ycom.
You go there.
You can learn all about whatwe're about as an organization
and the variety of things thatwe offer.
Simon Kardynal (43:14):
If you want to learn more?
Kevin Eikenberry (43:15):
Very specifically about the book
Kevin Eikenberry.
com/flexible, and from there youcan see how you can get a copy.
You can see what benefits andbonuses you get if you buy more
than one copy.
You can even get a samplechapter at KevinEikenberrycom
slash flexible.
One more place.
(43:41):
If you go to, KevinEikenberrycomslash gift.
I have something as a gift foryou.
It's free.
It's the best kind of gift.
It's a free gift.
I created a masterclass acouple of years ago on building
our confidence in the confidenceof others.
So it's for us, as leaders, tobe more confident and in the
subtitle of this book, flexibleLeadership Navigate Uncertainty
and Lead with Confidence.
So we're giving you that accessto that masterclass that we
(44:02):
sell every day for $79 for free,if you just go to
kevineckenbergcom slash gift.
Simon Kardynal (44:09):
Thank you so much for that gift and for your
time today.
This has been a true pleasure,Kevin.
I know this is the second timeyou a true pleasure, Kevin.
I know this is the second timeyou've been on the show.
I hope this won't be the lasttime.
Do you have any final thoughtsbefore we sign off?
Kevin Eikenberry (44:22):
Well, first of all, thank you, and what I
would say to all of youlistening is the same thing I
say at the end of my show, whichis to ask yourself this
question Now, what action willyou take?
Now, obviously, I'd love foryou to take the action of buying
a book, but that's not what I'msaying.
What I'm really saying is whatdid you get from this episode
that you will go try?
That you will go do, because ifyou don't go try it, you might
(44:44):
have found this interesting.
You might be a big fan of Simonand say Kevin wasn't awful.
You may use this asentertainment, all that's fine,
but where this becomes reallyvaluable is when you take action
on what you want.
That's what I hope that you dowell.
Simon Kardynal (44:56):
Thank you so much for that, and I cannot wait
to hear from the listenersabout what action they've been
able to take away from thisepisode.
Thank you so much, Kevin, forall of your time, and until the
next time, my friend take care.
Thanks, so much well, that's awrap from the front.
In this episode, we talkedabout being flexible.
We talked about how, as aleader, it's important to manage
(45:19):
our ability to go with the flow, to be fluid, to do what we
need to do to be successful andachieve the success that we're
expected to be able to achieve,while at the same time not
having all of the answers.
But how do we be successful?
I think Kevin said it best whenhe said we need to be
consistent in the what and thewhy, but we need to be flexible
(45:40):
in the how.
As always, thanks for tuning inand remember leadership without
passion limits the depth ofyour vision.
Glen (45:50):
Never miss an episode by following us on all of your
favorite feeds.
While you're there, pleaseconsider leaving an episode
review and let us know whattopics you would like to hear
about.
Be sure to join us next weekwith your host, Simon Kardynal,
(46:13):
for another episode of TrenchLeadership: A Podcast From the
Front Produced by iglen Studios.
Music provided by AshamaluevMusic.
I would like to begin this episode by
acknowledging that I am locatedin Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, and
I am privileged and honoured tolive and learn on the unceded,
unsurrendered territory of theAnishinaabe Algonquin Nation.
Glen (00:24):
Hello, you're listening to Trench Leadership
From the Front, produced byiglen studios, a show for
emerging leaders from allprofessions to hear from other
leaders who have led from thefront, made the mistakes, had
the triumphs and are stilllearning along the way.
And now here's your host, SimonKardynal.
Simon Kardynal (00:52):
Hello and welcome to another episode of
Trench Leadership (00:54):
A Podcast From the Front, a show for
emerging leaders, and this isn'tjust another episode that we
have in our episodic line.
This is a B onus Episode withKevin Eikenberry, and I'm so
excited to be able to do thisbecause, Kevin, we and I you and
I, we chatted a little bitearlier.
Well, and I say a little bitearlier, I mean over a year ago,
we recorded an episode and, forall kinds of reasons, we
(01:16):
weren't able to get that outthere to the public.
But I'm ecstatic to be able tosay to people that not only are
you out there for the bonusepisode to talk about flexible
leadership, we're also going tohave the other topic that we
talked about that we recorded ayear ago.
But that's for people to go tospotify and apple to pull those
episodes up.
But right now, as leaders, weoften hear about how vital it is
(01:39):
for leaders to be flexible, andit's true.
We all need to be fluid indoing all the things we do in
life and as a leader, thatfluidity is, in my opinion, the
secret sauce to being asuccessful leader.
That sounds great, but thereality is that being a flexible
leader is much more difficultto do in practice than to just
say it.
(02:00):
And so in this episode we'regoing to talk to Kevin and we're
going to have a great episode.
We're going to chat about allthe different ways how we can
avoid being inflexible, how wecan increase our flexibility,
and maybe we'll have some funalong the way.
But, as always, no one wants tohear from me.
They want to hear from theguests.
So with that, I'd like to goahead and welcome in Kevin.
(02:20):
Hey, kevin, how's it going outthere?
Kevin Eikenberry (02:23):
Simon, thanks for having me.
I'm glad to be back with you tohave this conversation.
This has been.
I was nodding my head, agreeingwith what you were saying in
the intro, so I'm excited forour conversation.
Simon Kardynal (02:32):
I completely agree with you.
And then, when you were noddingyour head, I was thinking to
myself wow, this is it, I'msaying the right things, and
that's a great boost ofconfidence for me.
So fantastic, Kevin.
Listen, before we get into it,why don't we just take a moment
and tell people about yourself?
Who is Kevin?
What is Kevin?
Kevin Eikenberry (02:49):
Well, like all of us, we have a lot of labels
that we might put on ourselves,and some of them might be
helpful.
I'm a husband, I'm a father,I'm a business owner, I'm an
author, a speaker, a trainer, acoach, a farm kid For those in
the United States.
I'm a boilermaker I went toPurdue.
(03:09):
So there's lots of labels thatyou could put on me, I suppose,
and those I would put on myself,I suppose, as well.
But I am in the business, andour team is in the business of
helping leaders make a biggerpositive difference in the world
, because leadership is thebiggest lever that organizations
can to create better results,and when leaders are leading
(03:31):
closer to their capacity and totheir potential, they can make a
real difference for theirorganizations and for the folks
that they lead.
Simon Kardynal (03:42):
Absolutely, and I would hope, and I really do
believe, that most leaders theywant to make a difference.
More often than not, the goalis to not self-aggrandize, not
get all the accolades.
It's about trying to make areal, tangible difference in the
lives of ourselves and the teamthat we're fortunate enough to
work with and the organizationthat we're connected to.
Would you agree with that?
Kevin Eikenberry (04:10):
I have long said, and I say this about
people in general.
I say this to leaders abouttheir folks.
I say here's Kevin's belief 95%of people want to do great work
95% of the time Not everybody,not every day and I would say
the same thing about leaders.
Like, nearly all of us havegood intention.
Nearly all of us really want todo really well.
One of the challenges is wedon't always know what really
well or really good or successlooks like, and perhaps this
(04:31):
conversation will help to unpackthat for people a little bit,
because, as you hinted, thereare some leaders that might have
a little bit of an ego thinggoing, and yet I would actually
say all of us as leaders have alittle of that that we might
need to be aware of.
Having an ego isn't all bad,but it can get out of hand and
become a problem rather than anaid.
My belief is that nearly all ofus as leaders and certainly
(04:54):
everyone who's listening to thisright, like no one's listening
to this podcast because theywant to suck as a leader.
Let's just be honest, right?
So all of us here certainlywant that to be the case, but
here's the other side of that.
The other side of that issociety, and I'll talk about
that in terms of Western society.
Which is what I know the mostabout is that you know, people
(05:15):
have grown up in their life andin the movies, the business
people and the leaders are oftenthe bad guys.
And people have all thesethings in their head like, well,
we're working nine to five andI'm going to get off and take
this job and shove it.
And you know, they made a movie, Simon, called Horrible Bosses,
and it was so successful theymade a sequel.
Simon Kardynal (05:39):
I watched them both all the time they never
made a movie called Awesome BossTotally true.
Kevin Eikenberry (05:45):
So while I believe that most leaders do
want to do right by theirorganizations and their teams,
that their intentions are good,it's far from a myth that not
every leader is really, at theend of the day, awesome,
regardless of their intentions.
Simon Kardynal (06:02):
And that's the kick awesome, regardless of
their intentions.
And that's the kick when we'rein these leadership roles,
especially as emerging leaders.
We're into these new roles.
I say it all the time the vastmajority of the time we are put
into those first leadershiproles, it's not because we've
proven ourselves, because of ourvast leadership experience,
it's because we've provenourselves and our technical
skillset.
And the example I love to useis when I was a really great
(06:22):
welder that he came to me andsaid hey, Simon, you should
totally lead a group of welders.
That in no way means that I amgood at leading a group of
welders.
That's a fact Like what areyour thoughts on that?
Kevin Eikenberry (06:34):
Well, it happens everywhere.
It happens with welders.
The best accountant becomes theaccounting manager, right, the
best salesperson becomes thesales leader.
We could go right on down theline.
And it causes the problem thatyou just described.
It causes the problem thatwe've tried to help people with
my book From Bud to Boss, andthat transition from being a
peer to being the leader, movingfrom last week we had a beer
(06:57):
together, next week I'm doingyour performance review.
That's hard.
I would say it's the hardesttransition of our careers.
But there's another challengeinside of that that maybe we can
unpack a little bit.
And here it is that we werepromoted because we were really
good at the other job, we were areally good welder, but also
because we had a lot of theanswers, like we were a subject
(07:20):
matter expert.
And so we, whether it'sconscious or not, we feel like
once we're the boss, we'resupposed to have all the answers
, we're supposed to know all thestuff.
When people have a question, weshould have an immediate answer
and that, by the way, there isa right answer, like two plus
two, we know the answer too.
(07:49):
We know the answer.
So that whole thing right.
There is one of the things thatkeeps us from being flexible as
a leader, because we feel likewe're supposed to have an answer
, so we have an answer, and sowe don't get curious enough
because, listen, we got promotedbecause we had answers and so
now we're expected to be thesuper answer person.
And all of that has unintendedconsequences in our heads, in
our internal expectations andoften what we think we're
(08:13):
supposed to do as a leader.
We lean into that stuff atfirst in the transition, because
that is what we know, that'sthe solid footing we've got.
We have to figure out the rest.
But even as we start to figureout the people stuff and the
other leadership stuff, thatother thing lingers and that
other thing is sitting there formany of us as a big impediment
to us actually becoming moreflexible as a leader.
Simon Kardynal (08:37):
Yeah, and that inflexibility is paralyzing,
especially once it starts totake over.
And especially in myexperiences and what I've seen
with other newer leaders, is,once we start to stumble and
don't know those answers, mostoften we start to fall on what
we know, and that might not beanything when it comes to
leadership, because we have beenplaced into those roles and
(08:57):
that becomes a problem.
What are you thinking?
Kevin Eikenberry (09:00):
So we feel like we're supposed to be
infallible and so if we don'thave answers, we will often sort
of act bolder Right.
What we will definitely do isgo to our natural habit and,
(09:20):
being intentional andconsidering that there may be
other things for us to thinkabout or try as opposed to just
sort of diving in to what we'vealways done, our natural
experience, our learnedexperience and, oh, by the way,
what we've seen from otherleaders which unfortunately
sometimes aren't great rolemodels.
Simon Kardynal (09:42):
Yeah, absolutely .
And, as I'll be honest, earlier, earlier today I was listening
to your latest episode from yourpodcast called the remarkable
leadership podcast, and one ofthe hosts you had was a Dr.
Christy Smith.
In the episode, the two of youwere chatting about contextual
competence and that reallystruck a chord with me, because
I think there's something to besaid about having a competence
(10:03):
and understanding the context ofwhy we're doing things, and I'd
like to know your thoughts onthis that it's the leader's role
to take the time to get thecontext of something, not just
blindly follow.
I'm in the military so, as onecould imagine, there's an
expectation to certain degreesto just blindly follow the legal
orders that I've been given.
But in my role at my rank levelnow, because I'm a little bit
(10:25):
on an age, there's anexpectation for me to know that
context so that before I make adecision, I know why I'm making
a decision.
Does that make sense?
Am I rambling a little bit?
Kevin Eikenberry (10:36):
No, a hundred percent.
So in the book FlexibleLeadership there's three
components to being a flexibleleader from our perspective, and
the middle one of those iscontext.
What is the context?
So let me give you everybodythe simplest way to think about
this, and that is that someonecomes into your office with a
question and they need you torespond or decide or do
(10:59):
something as the leader.
They're wanting your advice,perhaps, and they're looking at
you across the table or acrossthe desk and your first thought
is well, my answer depends.
So if you say, or when you say,it depends, which we've all
done, what does it depend?
It depends on the context.
(11:20):
So that's a moment when ourbrain is open enough to say,
well, the answer, or the bestanswer, or the answer that would
give us the best results orgives us the best odds, well, it
depends.
So what does it depend on?
See this situation fromdifferent perspectives and say,
(11:43):
well, given that this is thedirection we should take, which
might be the same direction youwould have taken, naturally,
habitually, but not always.
And so when we have that momentof well, it depends, we're
fundamentally saying it dependson what the context.
And so recognizing that contextmatters a lot is step one, and
(12:10):
then step two, having a way tosort of read that map so we can
then make different choices orat least give different choices
to be for consideration.
And I've come to believe thatcontext makes us a lot smarter.
To believe that context makesus a lot smarter, right, and
that when we're, number one,willing to look at context and
then make decisions based onthat context rather than based
(12:33):
on our comfort, past experienceor auto-response habits, we'll
get better results.
Simon Kardynal (12:41):
I completely agree with you.
Often I can be heard sayingespecially when I'm talking
about getting a bit of a storyto get to a point, I will say
the context matters, so thelittle details, and one of the
things that I think I've gottenbetter at throughout my career
is relaying what information isimportant for the context of
whatever is happening and whatisn't.
Do you have any advice forfolks who are now thinking, hey,
(13:03):
maybe I need to provide moreinformation to give that full
contextual experience, or theconcept rather, how might a
leader look at that?
How do they do that?
Kevin Eikenberry (13:14):
So two things.
Let's talk first about how do Ihelp give better context to
others and then, second, talk alittle bit more about how can we
make sure we have that context.
So what I would say is andagain back to if we're a new
leader or we've been in theleadership role for a while,
oftentimes we know stuff and sowe assume everyone else knows
(13:37):
the same stuff, like it'sobvious.
To us, it's like profoundknowledge and we need to step
back.
So here's the situation andhere's why I'm suggesting we go
this way.
Or here's the situation thatleads to the decision that we're
making figure that everyoneelse knows it.
(14:07):
That is when, unintentionally,we end up being a leader that
people may see as being overlydominant or overly directive,
because you haven't given themthe context to understand how
you got where you got.
So that's the first thing, andthe other thing I would say is
that in the world that's moreuncertain and changing and is
more uncertain and more complexthan ever, the context that we
used to live and work in waspretty clear and straightforward
.
We had a best practice, we hada process, we sort of knew the
(14:29):
cause and effect and, as aleader, oftentimes we knew those
things.
That's not the way the world isanymore most of the time, and
so the world is more complex.
So there are things that weknow, we don't know, or there
are things we don't even knowthat we don't know.
That's what I would call complex.
Or there are things we don'teven know.
That we don't know.
That's what I would callcomplex.
And so we have to then start toferret those things out.
And if we try to treat it as ifit's clear, we end up with
(14:54):
things like all of the mistakesorganizations have made in a
return to office, when all theywere trying to do is take it
back to the way it used to be.
But it's never going to be theway it used to be again.
The context will never be clearlike it once was, because in a
weekend we changed the societalview of work.
Simon Kardynal (15:11):
Yeah, exactly.
Kevin Eikenberry (15:12):
And we can't unravel that.
And so for leaders to assumethat we're just going to go back
to where we were and I'm notpicking on any individual leader
there's lots of reasons whyleaders, maybe of my age, for
example might say, well, like,let's go back to what I know
that worked for me, but whatwill work for my people too?
They're not just being oldschool and they're not just
(15:34):
being stubborn.
They're trying to get successfor others in the way they got
success for themselves, Exceptthat the context isn't the same,
which means the way we did itbefore won't work or might have
unintended consequences.
Dominance might fall indirections we didn't think about
(15:57):
.
If you want to know inretrospect if something was a
complex context, think aboutsomething that you did a few
months ago and look back at itand say, well, man, if I had
known those things, I'd havedone something different.
Well, now you understand thepicture better than you did then
.
Right, but maybe then, if wehad stopped and asked a few more
questions, engaged people alittle bit more, looked around
(16:18):
the corner a little bit more,we'd have had a better picture
of the context we might have hadbetter success.
Simon Kardynal (16:25):
I totally agree with you.
I have two stories which will,coincidentally, help with the
context of where I want to gonext.
So I remember when I was ayoung private in the infantry
because I started in theCanadian Army and my sergeant
who was the section commander sothe person in charge of the 10
of us was a hard ass For allintents and purposes he was
gung-ho.
He had 10 of us was a hard assfor all intents and purposes.
(16:51):
He was gung-ho.
He had been in the military along time and the training that
he had received was just go hardand if you're treating them
rough, go a little bit rougherand that will make them tougher
and rougher and thereforeeventually turn them into me a
good hard soldier.
Well, flash forward a bunch ofyears.
I mean that thought.
That process is not completelygone, because there are some now
.
I can't believe I'm about tosay this.
I am the old guard of that oldattitude and there are still
(17:12):
people from my time in themilitary and they're still
carrying that thought processforward.
It's hard to let that go andsome people they just can't, for
whatever reason, and that'sfine, uh, but some it's just
that is their contextual beliefof what success?
How to make someone be asuccessful soldier and a
successful leader eventually.
It's interesting how that worksitself out.
(17:33):
What are your thoughts on that?
Kevin Eikenberry (17:37):
I call that the hazing syndrome, right?
Well, it worked for me, so itworked for everybody else
Besides, I had to go throughthat pain, so everyone else had
to go through that pain too.
I think there's a little ofthat.
But I think the other thing isthat we can't be flexible if we
don't know what our options are.
And so if that's all I've everseen and, by the way, and you
know this as well as I do, thatexample doesn't only happen in
the military and I'll take it astep further that I was never in
(18:04):
the military.
Right, you're in Canada, I'm inthe US.
I can still say thank you foryour service.
And what I would say is that,from people that I've talked to
who were in or are in theservice, the world in which they
serve in the military is quitedifferent than it was 15, 20
years ago.
When you started.
It was very different, it wasclearer, there were less shades
of gray.
(18:31):
And so, quite honestly, when wego back to context, if the
situation is really clear andbest practices we know are going
to work and there's no, itdepends moments then leading in
that command and control way notnecessarily the roughness of it
, but leading in a command andcontrol way works just fine.
There's a reason why.
That's how much of leadershiphappened and worked 50, 60, 70
(18:53):
years ago, because the world wasclearer, the world wasn't as
complex.
But as we move into a worldwith more unknowns and more of
it being unordered rather thansimply ordered, then those
approaches don't work in thosecontexts.
(19:13):
And so why are people stillthere?
Well, that's the model they had, that's the habit they have,
and they're saying well, itworks for me, it'll work for
them.
Well, except that the world'snot the same anymore.
Again, no disrespect.
And to your point earlier, it'snot like people are trying to
(19:35):
be poor, it's not like theydon't want to be effective
leaders.
Their belief, their mindsetsays this is what I know, so
this is what I'm going to do.
Simon Kardynal (19:47):
Exactly and I completely agree with you and
everything you're saying there.
As I was flashing forward theexample I gave, I was a young
private, it's 1994.
I'm okay with admitting thatand then flash forward a number
of years.
I joined the Air Force and Iget promoted to Master Corporal
In the Canadian military.
That's our first formal levelof leadership.
We're generally put in chargeof a group of five to seven
(20:08):
people.
There's some exceptions to that, of course, for the Canadian
military all thenon-commissioned members.
Every time we get promoted it'smandatory we have to take a
leadership course on how to, intheory, get ready to, not to
lead in the level we're at, butlead at the next level.
So should someone go away, thenwe're able to take one step up,
and so the leadership course iscalled the junior.
(20:30):
At the time it was called thejunior leadership course and it
was to teach us how to lead agroup of seven to 10 people the
next size up.
When I was going through in2007, I remember very clearly
that they were talking when thelesson was don't be a
transactional leader.
That was the name of the lessonand that was because at the
time the Canadian military was.
(20:51):
Their minds were blown away totalk about transformational
leadership, that a leader,excuse me could be talking with
a subordinate and that's theterm we used, not at a
subordinate right and have anactual conversation and still
relay an order in an effective,efficient manner.
And so transformationalleadership, that was the talk of
(21:11):
the town.
And then, as we flash forward,quite a number of years later,
we've heard, of course, we'vetalked about servant leadership
and humble leadership and allthe different styles of
leadership that are out there,and I'm not knocking any one of
them.
The problem we've run into ispeople will tend to, especially
when we give training, noteducation, training, specific
training to how to do a job.
(21:32):
The challenge my experience hasbeen specific training to how
to do a job.
The challenge my experience hasbeen the challenge has been
that we get stuck in that Okay,I've been trained to be a
transformational leader, I don'tknow how to do anything else
because I haven't been shownanything else.
That limits our ability to beflexible.
That's my perception.
What do you think on that?
Kevin Eikenberry (21:48):
Well, what?
Simon Kardynal (21:49):
it does all that .
Kevin Eikenberry (21:50):
But there's something else that it does,
because now I am saying tomyself not anything other than I
am a transformational leader.
Like I bought in, I get it.
So now, that is my identity.
And so even now, if I seesomething else like no, no, no,
no, I'm a transformationalleader.
That's who I am as a leader.
(22:12):
And if, once I have an identity, it's even harder, for it's now
, it's not just me tryingsomething else Like no, that's
counter to who I am, right.
So that could be about thingslike humble leadership, servant
leader, transformational leader,facilitative leader, all those
things.
And so there was probably anassessment that you took to tell
you how transformational youwere.
Simon Kardynal (22:35):
And so it was yeah.
Kevin Eikenberry (22:37):
And again there's no disrespect or or all
of what those models are tryingto do are helpful until they
work so well that it becomessomeone's identity, right.
So the same thing could be trueIf you've taken a disc
assessment, if you've taken aDISC assessment.
You've taken a strengths finder.
You've taken and, by the way,we have a DISC assessment we
(22:58):
sell DISCpersonalityTestingcom.
Like you can go there and getDISC stuff from us, but we work
really hard to say this isn'tyour style, but you have a lot
of these traits.
Like there's a differencebetween saying I'm a person with
a lot of D traits and saying Iam Because the second is now my
(23:19):
identity, which means here'swhat that means from a
leadership perspective.
This is how I lead everybody.
You might as well get used toit.
Like this is how it's going togo, Like that's just my nature,
that's how I lead, that's how Iwas taught to lead, that's what
leadership looks like to me, Allof those things, and if that's
where my head is and the far endof that spectrum is that's my
(23:41):
identity, it becomesextraordinarily hard to shift.
So you could say a cynic wouldsay well, Kevin, aren't you
selling a book to say to be aflexible leader?
Yes, except there's not a modelfor it.
It's simply a framework to saythat, oh, I have a plethora of
approaches.
What's the best one for me touse in this context?
(24:05):
That's the difference.
It's not prescriptive, it'sproviding you with options to
(24:25):
help you move past that identityor automatic response for an
episode that you feel is vitalfor emerging leaders.
Leave the idea in the commentsection and, if your topic is
chosen, you will have theopportunity to join us as a
co-host during the recordingsession.
So drop us a note and let'stalk.
This podcast is made possibleby listeners like you, and if
(24:49):
you feel we've earned it, pleasetell your friends and leave a
review to help us grow ourfollowing.
And now back to the show.
Simon Kardynal (24:59):
You know, as you're saying that, I'm thinking
back to when I was doing mymaster of arts degree and in
that the program happened to usethe Myers Briggs program.
When I did the program I hadnever heard of any of these
different types of programs.
I was very new and actually inhindsight I was really happy
about that because it let mecome into it really clearly
minded and open to the wholething.
(25:20):
So I did it and I'm an ESTJ andso that's all fine and dandy.
I remember we all did thequestions, we show up at the
course, we're doing our thing,and then they gave everyone our
results as one of our classes.
Immediately there were two campsthe I's, the introverts, and
the E's, the extroverts.
We spent the next two weekskind of chucking crap at each
(25:41):
other because you're anintrovert versus I'm an
extrovert, all kinds of jokesand stuff, and at the time it
was all meant to get humor.
There were probably some folksthat took that a little bit more
to heart.
That's okay, we figured it out.
But what it took me a while torealize was that, myers-briggs,
those four letters were notdefining who I was, not as a
leader, not as a person.
(26:01):
It was an assessment to help meunderstand portions of my
personality, but not definingwho I was.
And that was a big deal.
Kevin Eikenberry (26:10):
We are far more than four letters, a color,
an animal or whatever theassessment is that you've taken.
That doesn't mean they're nothelpful, but they're only
helpful to a point.
To use Myers-Briggs or DISC astwo of the most common in that
area, how they most help us isto help us understand our first
(26:31):
response or natural tendency,which doesn't have to be who we
are.
It doesn't mean just becauseyou are more extroverted doesn't
mean there's never a time thatyou want to have some quiet, and
it doesn't mean that you can'tenjoy a vacation on the beach by
(26:52):
yourself.
Your first tendency might wantto be with a group and to take a
class rather than read a book,and even those things are like
it's silly to say that, and yetthose are the kinds of examples
that we sometimes use todescribe those differences.
Those don't describe us.
They talk about our firstnatural tendencies, and knowing
(27:13):
that is super helpful.
And if we want to be a moreflexible leader, it's important
to know our natural tendenciesso that we can say wait a minute
, is that serving us right nowor not?
Simon Kardynal (27:25):
Yeah, absolutely so.
A number of episodes back.
I went and I did a series on alot of the different personality
tests.
I ended up doing eight of thesedifferent ones.
I had episodes for each one ofthem.
I did disc, I did all thecolors and all the different
things and it was fantastic andwell, ultimately there were a
lot of similarities.
I what I noticed was, dependingon the mood I was in, depending
(27:47):
on if I felt rushed, dependingon what was going on around me,
it ske skewed some of theanswers.
Kevin Eikenberry (27:53):
I will say the assessment is based on X number
of questions and how youanswered those or thought about
those in the moment.
Right?
So when people do a discassessment, like with ours,
sometimes people will say, well,I, but I was doing it thinking
about work.
Well, our instruction is justto just answer them naturally,
without much thought.
Instruction is just to justanswer them naturally, without
(28:15):
much thought.
And yet the minute that we say,well, at work, I or any of those
things, or I was tired or I wasfrustrated, or I was a little
angry about something else, likeall that's going to impact
those responses.
So to think that then we'regoing to take an algorithm or
turn that out and say, voila,simon, this is who you are, it's
kind of silly.
The whole thing with a model isthis, and that is that a model
(28:39):
is designed to simplifysomething more complex so that
we can put our arms around itand understand it.
The problem that we take isthen we take, and so there's
already nuance missing when wedo that.
Again, no disrespect to thesemodels.
Like they have great value aslong as we use them for what
they are as opposed to whatthey're not 100%.
(29:01):
So they nuance is lost for us tobe able to put our arms around
it.
But then when we turn that intoour identity and say I am a E
whatever you said, I am an ESTJwe took even more of the nuance
out.
And now we threw the model outand said, well, this is me, and
so that's the slippery slope.
(29:23):
So, for example, there areorganizations that and again,
regardless of these tools, andyou may be in an organization
that's done this, where we'veall taken the same assessment,
so we have some common language.
That's cool.
But now in our email subjectlines we have those, or we have
the people used to put them onthe on the doorways and they
walked into your, into theiroffice.
Well, now the slippery slopewe're going down to is now we're
(29:45):
just typecasting everybody andwe're we're.
We're sort of saying to eachother I am four letters, or I am
blue, or I'm yellow or whatever, and that slippery slope is a
challenge, and the further downthat slope we go, the less
likely or the harder it will befor us to flex.
Simon Kardynal (30:06):
Yeah, absolutely .
You know, when I was doing allthose different assessments, the
one commonality thing that Icame across and I don't even
know if I totally believe it Isaid Simon is a pragmatic leader
, okay, and that popped up quitea few times and I mean, all
right, I'll take that.
What I choose to get out ofthat is I get results.
It was an interesting thingthat that popped up all the time
(30:30):
.
However, when I had completedall of the different assessments
, the challenge I ran into waswhat I was doing when I was
going to make decisions.
I remember thinking am I makinga pragmatic decision?
Okay, how about I just make thedecision?
This hasn't changed who I am.
It was drastically affecting myability to be flexible and the
job I'm in now.
My role is to advise thecommanding officer of our
(30:52):
squadron how to do his job.
In this case, it happens to bea guy.
So if I'm questioning, if I'mmore thinking about, am I making
the decisions based off fourletters?
It's affecting my flexibility,which, ultimately, is not what
any of us need to be at theselevels of leadership, and
especially at a new leadershiplevel.
We need to be extra flexible tobe able to go forward.
(31:13):
Would you agree with that?
Do you have any thoughts onthat at all?
For sure, for sure.
Kevin Eikenberry (31:17):
And so.
So here's so if I can step backand answer that question kind
of through a different direction.
So in order for us to beflexible as a leader, we have to
recognize the value in doing it, and you said at the top of the
show that you know, we alsowant to be flexible and yet we
(31:40):
aren't always, for all thereasons that we've been
unpacking throughout thisconversation.
So, if we think it's a good ideabut we're not really doing it,
we got to get clearer about whatis the mindset of doing it to
start with.
Yeah, but we're not reallydoing it.
We got to get clearer aboutwhat is the mindset of doing it
to start with.
And so here's what I wouldsuggest to you that the tension
in your head and anyone's headright now, not necessarily in
(32:00):
your assignment, but in people'shead right now, might be this
well, flexible sounds good, butaren't I supposed to be
consistent?
to which I would say, when youframe it as I'm either
consistent or I'm flexible,you're asking the wrong question
.
I want you to imagine and,depending on where you are, if
(32:23):
you're driving you can't do this.
But if you can see a tree, lookat a tree like a mature tree.
If you can't, see it in yourmind's eye, if you're driving,
don't close your eyes to see itin your mind's eye, just keep
driving.
And here's the thing Imagine orthink about a mature tree.
We would say in lots of waysthat a mature tree is consistent
, like it's not moving, it's inthe same spot, it's stable, it's
(32:44):
consistent, it's strong.
And we would say man, those aregood things for leaders, but
look at that tree just a littlebit longer.
If there's a bit of a breeze,that tree is also flexible.
It's not consistent, stable orflexible, it's both.
So the tree is stable becauseit's rooted.
(33:04):
A leader is consistent orstable because of its roots.
What are our roots?
Our roots are our values, ourprinciples.
Our roots are our values, ourprinciples, our why, our mission
, our purpose.
So we should be consistent inour what and why and flexible in
our how and so it's a falsequestion to say should I be
(33:30):
consistent or should I?
because, see, once we have thatidentity thing, then we're doing
exactly what you were saying,simon.
Well, but is that what apragmatic leader would do?
I'm supposed to be pragmaticand so flexible on approach,
flexible on how, and so thefirst piece of that is
recognizing that the world, inmost cases for our work, is not
(33:56):
an either or it's not consistentor flexible.
It's consistent and flexible.
It's be willing to speak and bewilling to listen.
It's be focused on the customerand be focused on the team
member.
It's truth and grace, and allof those are just what I
(34:20):
described, our examples of whatwe call our flexors.
And so the ends of thoseflexors, the far ends of those
often defined by a style, arealmost always less than optimal,
like the far ends of thespectrum.
Here's an example for any and Iknow a lot of people listening
here are new leaders or, youknow, first-time leaders,
(34:43):
frontline leaders.
If that's you, this applies toall of us, but especially
applies to you I often will asknew leaders like what are the
mistakes that you've seen newleaders make?
And one of the things peoplesay is is we make too much
change too fast.
So either end of that, bothends of that, are less than
optimum.
The better answer is somewherein between that.
(35:04):
And so a flexible leaderrecognizes the tension between
those ends of that flexor andsays, given this context, where
do I need to be?
So I might move into leading abrand new team or a new team to
me and my nature might be tomake more change more quickly.
But what if I looked at thiscontext and say, well, maybe
with this team, maybe I don'tneed to.
(35:24):
Maybe I need to flex a littlebit more toward the status quo,
not never change anything, butmaybe I don't need to change
much right now, maybe I need towait a little longer.
The status quo, not neverchange anything.
Maybe I don't need to changemuch right now, maybe I need to
wait a little longer.
Maybe this organization isalready going through a major
(35:45):
change and adding more, eventhough it's important and useful
, isn't going to serve us rightnow.
Or maybe you've got anorganization that's kind of
stayed and a team that's kind ofstayed, kind of living in their
status quo, and you might likethat, that might be kind of good
for you, like that, but youneed to push them and move a
little more, change a littlemore rapidly, maybe even than
your personal preference orcomfort level, but that's what
(36:05):
the context tells us.
That's being a flexible leader.
Simon Kardynal (36:11):
You know, as you're talking about that, and
it reminds me of a couple ofdifferent things, and one of the
things I've learned as I'vegone through my leadership
journey and figuring out how tobe flexible, to realize that I
need to be a flexible leader inall the ways was learn how to
ask questions, and you knowthere are many documents and
many tools out there to talkabout how to ask the right
questions.
That's not where I'm going withthis.
(36:32):
I promise that's a whole otherpodcast series, I'm sure, but
I'd like to come back to when Iwas listening to your latest
episode and you were talkingabout contextual competency.
What I got thinking about wastalking about assumptive
competencies in that learning,when we're making assumptions
about things, what do I reallyknow and what am I making an
(36:53):
assumption about?
And if we go all the way backto the episode with the
expectation that we put onourselves to have all the
answers, often my experience hasbeen that assumptions will be
made and then we start makingdecisions based off of that.
What are your thoughts?
Kevin Eikenberry (37:07):
A hundred percent, and so one of the
things is that we, as humanbeings, we are really good at
pattern recognition.
So when we see the pattern, oh,that's what we need to do, like
once we see enough that thatreminds us of 17 other times,
then it must be like those 17other times.
Simon Kardynal (37:29):
Maybe A hundred percent.
Kevin Eikenberry (37:31):
Maybe right, and so that, by the way, that's
human nature, and patternrecognition is very powerful for
us.
We need it, but we've got to becareful with it, right?
So OK, so here's the thing.
I've seen this 17 times, but Ihaven't seen it in a couple of
years.
Has the world changed in thelast couple of years?
Yeah, are there differentpeople in the organization that
(37:52):
are involved in this?
Do you think they'reautomatically responding and
reacting and making exactly thesame decisions that the last 16
groups of people did?
The trend from the other 16 isuseful for us to take into
account.
I'm not saying to forget allthat, ignore your past
experience.
I'm saying well, we all know,you've probably all seen.
If you take the word assume andyou slice it up, it makes you
(38:18):
know there's a thing that itdoes to us.
Let's just put it this wayassuming doesn't serve us.
Agree and as leaders going backto the stuff we talked about
earlier oftentimes we will makethat assumption because we think
people want us to makedecisions now, be decisive, make
, help us moving forward.
We don't want to slow down.
Sometimes we need a speed bump,sometimes we need to stop just
for a second, take a pause.
And if we'll stop and take apause and look at that situation
(38:40):
a little bit longer, we mightvery quickly see that some of
the assumptions that we'remaking will melt.
Simon Kardynal (38:46):
Oh yeah.
And when that happens, Ibelieve that's the nexus point
where we can to be flexible, tosay, ok, maybe we need to take a
knee, maybe we need to stop,maybe we need to keep going, who
knows.
But that's about recognizingthose moments, that I believe,
where that flexibility comesinto play.
What are your thoughts?
Kevin Eikenberry (39:01):
A hundred percent, which goes back to what
I said about when you saveyourself.
Well, it depends.
If you assume this to look justlike the last 16, there's no,
it depends Like you're alreadypassed.
It depends, know, it depends,like you're already past it
depends.
You've jumped past it, right?
So come back and say well, whatcould it be?
So let me give you I like tothink of what I call and I don't
(39:24):
believe from a Google search, Idon't think anyone else has
ever coined this phrase, so I'mgoing to claim it what I call
plausible cause analysis.
The goal of plausible causeanalysis is not like root cause
analysis.
Root cause analysis, there's aroot cause and we're going to
find that thing.
With plausible cause analysis,all we're trying to do is say
what are plausible reasons whythis is happening.
(39:45):
So here's the simplest one thatcomes to my mind.
You're driving down the roadminding your own business and
all of a sudden, someone comeszooming past you.
You see them in the rear ofyour mirror and they're zooming
up behind.
You're on a four lane and yousee them swerving in and out.
They're going 20 miles an hourfaster than you.
They go flying by you andwhat's the first thing?
What's this crazy person?
This is not the Indianapolis 500.
(40:06):
That person is crazy.
Someone needs to pull them over.
That's possible.
I'm not questioning that.
That's not possible.
But what if you knew that thatyoung man who may have been the
picture who you had as I paintedthat word picture for you, that
(40:30):
that young man had his wifenext to him about to give birth
to their baby, would that changehow you thought about the way
he was driving?
It would absolutely change theway you thought about how he was
driving.
Does that mean that that cargoing by you has a pregnant
woman there?
No, does that mean that thatperson driving past you is a
crazy driver?
Maybe?
(40:50):
The thing is, there's all sortsof things it could be plausible
causes for this, and the minutewe lock into one and we take
action, we're not evenconsidering the possibility of
something different, which takesus back to your, to your
military peers and saying I'vegot to lead this way because
(41:11):
this is the way to do it.
It's's the only thing I've got,the only thing I've seen.
Simon Kardynal (41:15):
This is the way.
Kevin Eikenberry (41:16):
Well, it is the way right and so plausible
cause analysis says what are thepossible or plausible things
that could have led us to thispoint, and I'm not going to be
able to tell which one it is,but if I listed seven things it
could be, then let me make adecision based on what might
impact many of those rather thanthe one that I initially
(41:38):
thought.
Simon Kardynal (41:40):
I really love that, other than the fact that
when I was a younger driver, Iwas the guy that if someone cut
me off, I'm going to chase himdown and I'm going to teach him
a lesson.
And it took me, I'm going tosay, maturity and a little more
gray in my beard than I want toadmit about the realization that
I don't know what's going onwith that person.
Was it possible?
They're just a jerk?
Possible.
But, like you said, there couldbe any number of reasons.
(42:01):
But it also took me a long timeto realize that if I go and I
cut that person off because theycut me off, did they all of a
sudden learn a lesson and say oh, thank you, simon, I get it.
I now understand.
We don't know why they weredoing those things, so I don't
think that was the lesson theywere going to get.
Kevin Eikenberry (42:18):
Just saying the odds of that being the
lesson not high.
Simon Kardynal (42:22):
Yeah, I love to say I was doing it for the right
reason, but that's what I wastelling myself.
If I'm being completely honestwith myself, I knew I was also
now perpetuating the samejerkdom that was happening to me
potentially.
Yeah, listen, you know, kevin,we have had a great conversation
.
We've been chatting for I can'tbelieve it 45 minutes now about
flexible leadership, about notgetting stuck inside one
(42:44):
particular style of leader,being flexible in how we lead.
Before we wrap this up, ifpeople want to reach out to you,
how might they do that?
Kevin Eikenberry (42:54):
Well, you know , we have this thing called the
World Wide Web.
So let me give you a couple oflinks that if you wanted to
learn more about our company,you can just go to
KevinEikenberrycom.
I'll spell it Kevin E-I-K-E-N.
B, as in boy E-R-R-Ycom.
You go there.
You can learn all about whatwe're about as an organization
and the variety of things thatwe offer.
Simon Kardynal (43:14):
If you want to learn more?
Kevin Eikenberry (43:15):
Very specifically about the book
Kevin Eikenberry.
com/flexible, and from there youcan see how you can get a copy.
You can see what benefits andbonuses you get if you buy more
than one copy.
You can even get a samplechapter at KevinEikenberrycom
slash flexible.
One more place.
(43:41):
If you go to, KevinEikenberrycomslash gift.
I have something as a gift foryou.
It's free.
It's the best kind of gift.
It's a free gift.
I created a masterclass acouple of years ago on building
our confidence in the confidenceof others.
So it's for us, as leaders, tobe more confident and in the
subtitle of this book, flexibleLeadership Navigate Uncertainty
and Lead with Confidence.
So we're giving you that accessto that masterclass that we
(44:02):
sell every day for $79 for free,if you just go to
kevineckenbergcom slash gift.
Simon Kardynal (44:09):
Thank you so much for that gift and for your
time today.
This has been a true pleasure,Kevin.
I know this is the second timeyou a true pleasure, Kevin.
I know this is the second timeyou've been on the show.
I hope this won't be the lasttime.
Do you have any final thoughtsbefore we sign off?
Kevin Eikenberry (44:22):
Well, first of all, thank you, and what I
would say to all of youlistening is the same thing I
say at the end of my show, whichis to ask yourself this
question Now, what action willyou take?
Now, obviously, I'd love foryou to take the action of buying
a book, but that's not what I'msaying.
What I'm really saying is whatdid you get from this episode
that you will go try?
That you will go do, because ifyou don't go try it, you might
(44:44):
have found this interesting.
You might be a big fan of Simonand say Kevin wasn't awful.
You may use this asentertainment, all that's fine,
but where this becomes reallyvaluable is when you take action
on what you want.
That's what I hope that you dowell.
Simon Kardynal (44:56):
Thank you so much for that, and I cannot wait
to hear from the listenersabout what action they've been
able to take away from thisepisode.
Thank you so much, Kevin, forall of your time, and until the
next time, my friend take care.
Thanks, so much well, that's awrap from the front.
In this episode, we talkedabout being flexible.
We talked about how, as aleader, it's important to manage
(45:19):
our ability to go with the flow, to be fluid, to do what we
need to do to be successful andachieve the success that we're
expected to be able to achieve,while at the same time not
having all of the answers.
But how do we be successful?
I think Kevin said it best whenhe said we need to be
consistent in the what and thewhy, but we need to be flexible
(45:40):
in the how.
As always, thanks for tuning inand remember leadership without
passion limits the depth ofyour vision.
Glen (45:50):
Never miss an episode by following us on all of your
favorite feeds.
While you're there, pleaseconsider leaving an episode
review and let us know whattopics you would like to hear
about.
Be sure to join us next weekwith your host, Simon Kardynal,
(46:13):
for another episode of TrenchLeadership: A Podcast From the
Front Produced by iglen Studios.
Music provided by AshamaluevMusic.
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