April 14, 2025 • 47 mins
Wayne Turmel, a fellow Canadian and podcast host, an author, and consultant for the Kevin Eikenberry Group, joins Trench Leadership to share hard-earned wisdom about creating high-performing teams across distances in our transformed work landscape. As a remote work pioneer, Wayne offers a refreshingly pragmatic perspective that cuts through the noise surrounding return-to-office debates.
The conversation explores Wayne's 3-O Model of Leadership, which balances Outcomes, Others, and Ourselves. This framework helps leaders navigate the complexities of managing remote teams while avoiding burnout.
For leaders navigating hybrid work arrangements, Wayne's advice is refreshingly straightforward: focus on the work that needs doing rather than where it happens. By approaching team design with intentionality and listening to employee needs, leaders can create more effective, engaged teams regardless of physical location. The key is pausing to think strategically rather than rushing back to familiar patterns.
Wayne’s Links:
2. www.longdistanceteambook.com
3. https://www.linkedin.com/in/wayneturmel/
5. The long-distance work life podcast: www.longdistanceworklife.com
Wayne’s Recommended Book/Movie/Podcast List:
Books:
1. Purpose, the Starting Point for All Great companies https://www.amazon.com/Purpose-Starting-Companies-Mourkogiannis-2006-10-03/dp/B01FEKANJ8/
2. Babel
3. The Necessity of Violence. An Arcane History of the Oxford Translator’s Revolution: https://www.amazon.com/Babel-Necessity-Violence-Translators-Revolution/dp/B09MV827NK
Movies:
1. The Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent - because nothing is funnier than someone poking fun at themselves successfully.
2. All Quiet on the western Front (2022) - because we haven’t learned a darned thing in 100 years.
3. Writing Excuses
4. The Skeptics Guide to the Univers
Trench Leadership: A Podcast From the Front is humbled to have been named #5 in the Top 20 for Best Canadian Leadership-themed podcasts for 2025.
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YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYnaqOp1UvqTJhATzcizowA
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
I would like to begin this episode by acknowledging
that I am located in Ottawa,Ontario, Canada, and I am
privileged and honoured to liveand learn on the unceded,
unsurrendered territory of theAnishinaabe Algonquin Nation.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, you're listening to Trench Leadership,
a podcast from the frontproduced by iGlenn Studios, a
show for emerging leaders fromall professions To hear from
other leaders who have led fromthe front, made the mistakes,
had the triumphs and are stilllearning along the way.
And now here's your host, simonCardinal.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Trench
Leadership, a podcast from thefront, a show for emerging
leaders.
Leaders are often required todesign their teams to achieve
maximum success, and the fact ofthe matter is there's an
expectation for leaders thatwe're going to make the best
teams possible, or often workwith the teams that are given to
(01:10):
us.
But that doesn't change thefact that in this quasi
post-COVID world, designingteams from a distance can and
has become a reality of today'sleaders.
But how do we do it?
In this episode you'll hearfrom Wayne Turmel, fellow
Canadian eh and podcast host,author and consultant for the
Kevin Eikenberry Group.
Wayne's going to talk about thechallenges of creating teams
(01:34):
from long distances, and thenWayne is going to offer his
insight into how leaders cancreate robust, diverse and
impactful teams.
But before we get into that, asalways, we're going to do the
visual representation.
So for myself, I'm wearing theblack golf shirt with the red
Trench Leadership logo over myleft side.
I've still got my black rimmedglasses.
(01:55):
There's still too much grayhere on the sides of my head and
my back wall is a photo of astone wall with the Trench
Leadership logo hanging.
It's still white and it isstill highlighted in purple,
although the actual TrenchLeadership logo is red.
Wayne, did you want to take amoment and tell us about your
physical location?
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Yeah, hi, I am actually in my home in Las Vegas
, so I am wearing a black golfshirt as well shirt as well.
I am gray on top, gray on myvery fuzzy face, and you cannot
see the plain, boring gray wallbehind me because I'm using a
backdrop of the Welcome to LasVegas sign and, for those of you
(02:38):
who are wondering, I'm notactually sitting in front of the
Welcome to Las Vegas sign.
It's far too windy today.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah, I would be impressed and that's some
impressive AV work to make thatwind and not be kicking in for
that.
So thanks so much for takingthe time today.
I know earlier we were talkingabout how you'd had a busy day,
but fortunately it sounds likewe're at the end of it for you.
So once we get through thisepisode you'll be able to take a
moment and go hit the slotmachines or whatever, whatever
your preference in being whatthey are.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
You are the only thing between me and lunch.
So don't you know I'm not toohangry at the moment, so you got
me at a good moment.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
That sounds great.
Well, listen, before we getinto this, I'm just wondering do
you mind taking a moment andtelling us a little bit about
yourself and the journey thatyou've been on, and, ultimately,
how you got to this point?
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Well, the journey is far too long and it's far too
early in the day to drink thebeverages that usually make this
story more palatable, but theway it works is this I'm from
Canada.
I was in the entertainmentbusiness in Canada, moved to LA
30 good heavens two years ago tobe a big star, and you can see
(03:50):
how well that worked.
At some point, the wife andchild insisted on eating, and so
I was looking for a big boy job, and since the only thing I
knew how to do was stand andtalk, I started teaching
presentation skills and got intothe training and development
area.
Very early on, like 18 yearsago or so, I started
(04:13):
specializing in virtualcommunication tools like WebEx,
and those types of things werebrand new and nobody was
teaching people how to use themeffectively, and so that became
my area of expertise, did thatfor many years, started my own
consultancy, and then KevinEikenberry, who I'd known for
(04:34):
years and is a fabulous thinkerin the leadership space.
He was getting questions aboutleading remote teams and
presenting.
Virtually.
I was in that space, but I wasgetting questions about
leadership and leading teams,and it just kind of made sense,
(04:54):
rather than invent two separatewheels, that we came together,
and so we formed what was then.
The Remote Leadership Instituteis now part of the Kevin
Eikenberry group and I lead thepractice around remote work, and
he and I have co-written threebooks the Long Distance Leader,
the Long Distance Team and theLong Distance Teammate.
(05:18):
And so here we are.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Well, thanks so much for that.
I'm seeing a little bit of atheme when it comes to your
books, something about longdistance in there.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
I don't know, maybe I miss reading that well, I've
written 15 books, but thesethree, uh, are specifically and
in long distance.
We chose long distancespecifically because, yes, more
and more people are workingremote and this was pre-COVID we
(05:48):
had started this series.
I like to say we were ahead ofour time by about 30 minutes,
but it's you know.
Now, with hybrid work andflexible work and fully remote
work and working across timezones and national boundaries,
the odds of leading a team whereyou are always in the same
(06:08):
location as the team are, not tomake a pun, fairly remote, and
so that's why we settled on thelong distance kind of theme for
the books.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Well, you know it's interesting you're talking about
that and how you're able to getahead of it.
I think a lot of people, mostpeople, had at least heard of
Zoom.
I know I had heard of Zoom, butI had never used it.
I had never even heard ofthings like Microsoft Teams, and
WebEx was just something that Ihad on my computer because of
course, I took with the militarybut it didn't work very well
and then everything overnightwas thrust into having to be
(06:45):
able to work remotely and thatwas a huge, a huge adjustment
for people.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Well, it had been building up for a long time.
I mean, I got my first big boyjob in 1996.
And even then I had a lot of myteam about half my team was
remote and we were working byphone and fax machine and you
know we still had emailaddresses.
(07:10):
When I got into the virtualpresentation space, there were
125 web presentation platformsout there, starting with WebEx
was the best known, but therewere tons of them and things
have just changing and evolving.
And as far as remote work,starting in about 2000,.
(07:31):
Remote work was growing at 25%a year before COVID.
So what happened was a lot ofpeople were thinking about
remote work.
It was kind of on the horizon.
We were starting to play withthe tools.
Frankly, a lot of people weredoing stealth telework which was
(07:53):
oh, I need to get this projectdone, I'm going to work from
home today.
That was already going on.
But what happened, of course,three years ago is we got pushed
across the Rubicon and it wasno longer theoretical and we
could no longer pretend like itwasn't happening and it was far
(08:15):
more.
It was far more chaotic than wewanted it to be and way less.
You know, people anticipatedespecially senior leaders that
it was going to be the end ofthe world as we know it.
In fact, productivity did notdrop.
Particularly Employeeengagement actually went up in
(08:38):
the early days of COVID and wehave found that we can make it
work.
So now we're in this space forleaders where some companies go
all right, everybody back to theoffice now, and we're gonna
pretend like the last threeyears didn't happen and that's
not gonna work.
(08:59):
I am not one of those peoplewho is a zealot for remote work.
I think where it's appropriateand where you can do it, great.
But I think the answer is findwhat's right for the company,
for the organization and for theteam and for you as a worker,
(09:19):
and then make it work.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, and that's the trick with it is understanding
how and when to make these teamsbe remote, why they need to be
remote, all the different things.
I know for myself I've spokenabout it on previous episodes
how the civilian company workedfor Callion.
I think that when we startedgetting back to the opportunity
to have to go back to the officeor not have to go back to the
office, but the opportunity todo that the company did it right
(09:44):
in that they sent out a surveyand said what do we want to do?
And ultimately, what they didwas they listened to the survey
and they said okay, what we'rehearing is each team needs to be
able to make their owndecisions, because that just
makes the most sense for thiscompany.
And that's what happened.
And it happens to be that myteam, we are all working from
home 100% of the time, and thenwe try and make it so that we
all go to the office one Tuesdaya month for our that happens to
(10:06):
be the day we do our weeklymeeting.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
And that works for us .
There's a bunch of stuff thatyou just said there which proves
that it's a good, smart companyfull of good, smart people,
right?
Number one thing is you realizereally early on that, depending
on the business you're in,depending on who your customers
are and depending on thebusiness you're in, depending on
(10:29):
who your customers are anddepending on the function that
you serve, right, one size doesnot fit all.
The second thing is theyinvolved the staff really early
on One of the phrases that.
Kevin came up with and I wish wehad thought of this in time to
get it in the book around.
Return to office is the idea ofpilot before policy Companies
(10:52):
that spend a lot of timethinking about this.
Okay, we're going to do thisand everybody's coming back
three days a week and we'regoing to do this.
We're going to do that.
And then they found out thattheir well laid plans didn't go
so swell, yeah, and so you knowpeople that took your approach.
Let's talk to the people, let'ssee what it is, let's give them
(11:14):
some autonomy, and right noweverybody's remote, but it's one
Tuesday a month.
Maybe we find out that's notenough, right?
Maybe we need to do that moreoften.
Maybe certain groups need to doit, Okay, but you've got room
now to maneuver and experimentand try things out.
You're not locked in.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yeah, I love that you talked about not being locked
in, and I think a lot of thethings with most leadership
principles or most leadershippolicies or practices whatever
the word we want to use, itdoesn't matter is about being
flexible and being open todifferent things.
It's certainly more comfortableto have a plan and stick to
that plan all the time, butthings change and if we don't
change then you end up goingaway.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Well, and I mean, let's face it, as much as people
were thinking about the futureof remote work, last three years
we've been living theexperiment, and the genie isn't
going back in the bottle.
A lot of people's assumptionsgot blown up.
There are certain jobs thatcan't be done remotely Well,
that's true, and there are a lotof jobs that we didn't think
(12:19):
could that are.
You know people will slack offand you know, watch TV all day
and not really get any work done.
Well, guess what Didn't happen.
And you know as well as I do,being in the office is no
guarantee you're getting anywork done.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
You know you can't build relationships over
distance.
You know a third't buildrelationships over distance.
You know a third of longdistance relationships now begin
online.
It's the world that we live in.
The times have changed Now.
Are there reasons to get backtogether?
Absolutely.
Are there reasons why you don'twant people to be remote 100%
(13:03):
of the time?
I get that, but are we makingthe right decisions for the
right reasons?
And what we do in the Long Deskas a team, it's really designed
to just help frame yourthinking so that you can be
intentional.
Whatever answer you come upwith, you're doing it for the
(13:23):
right reasons and in the rightway.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's interesting how, if wedon't come into this with
intentionality and listening tothe team members, how quickly
things can implode.
And the example I'd love to useis that at the time of this
recording, in Canada anyways,and we're in late April the
Federal public service, thelargest union they're striking
right now because one of themain sticking points is that
(13:48):
they want more opportunities andmore options for working from
home.
Of course, there's otherfactors being taken into account
, but this is one of the mainthings, because originally, when
the federal government came outand said that this, okay, we're
on the other side of COVID, sowhat we're mandating is everyone
will be at the office a minimumof two days a week, and when I
say everyone, I'm talking about155,000 people across the
(14:11):
country.
A blanket policy doesn't workfor one person, much less toss
it out there for 155,000 peopleacross a very large country.
It's wild.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Well, funny that you mentioned, because we do a lot
of work with the Americanfederal government and they
announced yesterday yesterdaybeing Wednesday, as we record
this that by Monday, everyfederal agency has to have a
plan to have people back in theoffice.
Well, it's madness.
(14:46):
I mean, first of all, the good,smart ones and there are good,
smart federal agencies werealready kind of working towards
that.
Yeah, and they were, and somepeople have already adjusted to
that.
The challenge is that there werethree things about returning to
(15:08):
the office that are creatinghavoc, and any leader needs to
know this anytime you want toinstitute a change, right?
The first thing is hey, youdidn't ask us about going home
in the first place.
You asked us to go home.
We sacrificed, we upheaved.
You know, our life was inupheaval.
We've proven we can get thework done, and now you're going
(15:28):
to pretend like this neverhappened, right?
So that's the first thing.
The second thing is there'ssomething called the endowment
effect, which basically is apsychological term that says
people fear losing somethingmore than they think about
(15:48):
gaining from it, right?
So all of a sudden, I've hadthree years I haven't had to
fight traffic on the Dawn Valley.
You know, I don't spend as muchon gas.
I don't even spend as much onchildcare, because my wife and I
can make you know, the schedulework.
And now we have to go back towhat we were before and I don't
(16:12):
like it, and some of it is justI don't like it.
I mean, human beings are goingto human.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
And the third thing is, if I have to do all that, if
I have to fight traffic and payCanadian gas prices and do all
the stuff I have to do, and Iwalk into the office, hang my
coat over my chair, sit at mykeyboard for eight hours, pick
up my coat and go home, why didI come in?
So the big thing about hybridwork and returning to the office
(16:47):
is really getting smart aboutwhat.
Not just where does work happenand what work happens, but what
work happens where and whenright.
One of the reasons I used towork from home was because I
couldn't get anything done inthe office.
I'm trying to work.
(17:08):
People are stopping by my desk,the boss can see me and
immediately, you know, calls me,and every time they have a
question, there's cake in thebreak room for somebody's
birthday.
So I got to deal with that, andsometimes I just need to put my
head down and get some workdone.
Well, maybe the office isn'tthe right place for that.
Meanwhile, if we're in theoffice a couple of days a week,
(17:34):
maybe that's when we have ourmeetings and I'm not on Zoom
from eight till five every day.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah, and that's the thing.
It's striking that balance.
That's what I'm hearing in thisis knowing, listening to the
people, but also listening toourselves, and knowing what
works best and when, and havingan honest look at ourselves, not
thinking well for like.
For myself, I like wearingshorts, so that was great.
I wore shorts pretty much everyday for three years.
It was wild, but some days Ihad better days where I got more
work done at home, and otherdays I wasn't as productive, and
(18:02):
that's all part of it.
That's okay, cause it's theexact same thing in the office.
My experience that people wouldget hung up in the fact you're
in the office versus not, andjust that mindset it was hard to
get past that.
Does that make any sense at all?
Speaker 3 (18:13):
It makes perfect sense.
And what you said is reallyimportant, which is you need to
be honest about what's going on.
Some companies are feeling veryhard done by.
They're like we've let peoplework from home, we've kind of
(18:35):
let them do their own thing, andnow we're calling them back in
and the ungrateful weaselsaren't, you know, aren't doing
this.
Well, why are you calling peopleinto the office?
And there are good, legitimatereasons and there are some tasks
that if I need to brainstormwith my fellow engineers and sit
at a whiteboard and do all thisstuff, yeah, being in the
office might be the right thingto do.
If I'm one of 15 people fillingout T-17 forms all day long
(19:00):
right, and my forms are gettingfilled out why do I have to show
up to the office?
So, what is the work that needsto be done?
What's the best way to get thatwork done right?
And and so the company, youknow, does the company have a
right to say what they want?
Yeah, they have a right to dothat.
(19:21):
They're paying the bills is agood business to dictate what
you want them to do and if theydon't want it, they can jolly
well quit.
That's one way to look at itright, not the one I'd pick, and
organizations that do that aregoing to find themselves with
(19:46):
turnover, and you know all ofthe problems with it.
Here's the thing I thinkleaders listening to this should
think about.
There's a bell curve, as therealways is when it comes to
return to what we found out.
There's about 10% of people whocould not get back to the
(20:07):
office fast enough.
My kids are driving me crazy.
I'm alone here.
I need human contact.
Get me back to the office.
Let's go.
On the other end of that bellcurve, there's about 12% of
people who said, nope, I've hadmy freedom, I'm not going back.
(20:28):
I am never again going back toa nine to five in the office job
.
And then there's the big gianthump in the middle of the bell
curve, which is everybody elsewho is okay, you know, let's
figure out what this looks likeand doesn't make sense, and you
know we'll do what we need to do.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Well, as I was reading the book the book that
I'm just going to show it hereto everyone the Long Distance
Team by Wayne and Kevin inchapter four you talk about how
we view work and you actuallytalk about that pattern and how
that is just the way it's beeningrained for so many years,
decades.
And all of a sudden we wereforced to have to look outside
that.
And sometimes force takes apush, a not so gentle nudge down
(21:12):
the stairs and and in this caseit's all about we're so used to
having to work together and nowwe're not.
And then all of a sudden, hey,this feels great, but eventually
there's kind of you know, thependulum is going to swing hard
one way, it's going to swinghard the other direction and
eventually it'll find its way inthe middle, and my perception
is that a pattern will becreated that works for
individuals and for the teams.
It will naturally work itselfout.
(21:33):
We just I think it's importantto give it the time to do that.
Do you have any thoughts onthat at all?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, there are a couple ofthings going on, right.
There is what does it mean togo to work for 150 years or so?
That meant you leave the housein the morning and you go to a
specific location and you dosomething for a prescribed
amount of time and then you gohome.
(21:57):
And that's what it meant to goto work, right, and that's
because that's where work gotdone, that's where widgets got
put together's, where people metto talk about stuff, it's where
your customers found you.
That's what work was dependent,and we have the technology to
(22:34):
allow us to do what we need todo.
So then it becomes why do what?
Is the right way to get thiswork done?
And we have more options thanwe've ever had.
And it's difficult when you'rejust running, running, running,
doing, doing, doing, we don'treally stop and think about it.
But we had three years where wewere forced to stop and, as
we're being intentional aboutgoing back to the office, now
(22:57):
it's, we have this brief windowwhere we can actually stop and
think about is this what we wantto do?
Because for everybody who says,yeah, I can't wait to get back
to the before times, yeah,exactly.
What's happened is there's beentwo waves of resistance to going
(23:18):
back to the office.
There was the great resignation, where you're 10 to 12% of
people who said, no, I'm justnot going back to heck with it.
But there was a second wavethat we're in the middle of now,
where people went back to theoffice and then they went oh
yeah, this kind of sucked RightLike they were excited to get
(23:38):
back to something like normaland they liked working with
their peers, but they alsoremembered all the stuff they
didn't like about it.
Also remembered all the stuffthey didn't like about it.
And we're in this space.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
we can actually make some choices now.
Oh, hello, there, it's Glenn,the voiceover artist, and if
you're hearing me, that meanswe're at the midpoint of this
episode.
Do you have an idea for anepisode that you feel is vital
for emerging leaders?
Leave the idea in the commentsection and, if your topic is
chosen, you will have theopportunity to join us as a
(24:15):
co-host during the recordingsession.
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
And the challenge, in my perception, is that and what
I'm hearing is that there's anopportunity to create these
teams in a way that makes themost sense, and if you feel
we've earned it please tellyour are, and even a little bit,
looking towards the future andin the book you talk about the
3-0 model of leadership, andthis is a way that leaders may
be able to kind of go towardscreating, maintaining whatever
(24:42):
their particular team theoutcomes, others and ourselves.
I'm wondering if you wanted tochat about that a little bit or
other ways that leaders may beable to build those teams.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
We're big on models and all the books leader,
teammate and team have models inthem.
They're all three somethingsright?
Three R's, three L's, whatever.
But in this case, the three Omodel model really is just.
If we stop and think about ourwork and particularly our job as
leaders, there are threecomponents.
(25:14):
There's the outcome that weneed right why does the company
hire us?
What do they need to do, whatare the goals we have to have?
And we focus on that really,really hard, really hard.
But as managers, as leaders, aspeople above entry-level
employees, we have to get thatwork done through other people
(25:42):
right.
So there's the job that needsto be done and we have to get
other people to do that job inthe right way.
And there's ourselves.
If we don't have it together, ifwe aren't taking care of what
we need to take care of, wecan't get those others to work
as we need them to work andwe're not going to get the
(26:02):
outcomes that we need.
And especially in the earlydays of COVID, a lot of managers
were burning out because theywere super focused on keeping
the plane in the air.
We have to make sure that we'regetting the work done and they
were being very aware of helpingtheir people, but they were
(26:27):
working too many hours, theyweren't disconnecting from their
devices, they weren't takingtime off.
You know, managers were burningout at an alarming rate in the
early days of COVID because theywere so focused on outcomes and
others that they forgot aboutthemselves.
Ideal team situation if you'reputting a team together,
(26:53):
obviously has to be focused onthe outcomes, right.
The company needs to do whatthe company needs to do to stay
in business and we have goalsand things that we have to
achieve, and we do that throughother people.
Well, if we mandate or setunreasonable expectations or
something for those other people, the work's not going to get
(27:15):
done.
And if we're not in the rightheadspace to help those people
get the work done, it's just notgoing to work.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah.
So what I'm hearing in this isthat it's on the leader to
create the culture, to be ableto set the standard or the pace
for the team.
Does that make sense at all?
Am I hearing it correctly?
Speaker 3 (27:35):
is dangerous because it sounds like the leader, and
we make this very clear in thebook.
You know there are a lot ofquestions and a lot of ways to
(27:55):
guide your thinking and you canthink about.
You know this is what I wantthe culture to be and this is
what the company should be.
But if it just comes from youand you alone, what you're going
to get is, at best, you'regoing to get compliance instead
of buy-in.
You know the process that yougo through to think about this
stuff is the same process thatshould be done with your team,
(28:19):
right?
I mean your employers said topeople hey, talk to us, what
does this look like?
What should we do?
Now you can actually come upwith something.
What is the manager'sresponsibility is to then guide,
coach and execute to whateverthat plan is.
And of course, we know, asmanagers we are in this lovely
(28:44):
vice between you know whatsenior leadership says they want
and what our people say theywant.
And oh, look, here's us tryingto orchestrate all of that.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah, and that's the big trick in that is I'll just a
little bit by saying thank youfor clarifying that In my mind.
I definitely was thinking, youknow, after having spoken with
the team and figured out exactlyhow we want to go forward, who
takes the reins to go forward,and a little bit of that, I
think.
The way some of the terminologyand I'm not making excuses is I
was in the military for a lotof years, so you know, it's just
(29:20):
the terminology I get used to.
That doesn't change the factthat I didn't explain myself and
that's dangerous too when we'rein those roles.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
well, and we are seeing companies who this is
where I said before pilot,before policy we have seen
people where senior leaders andhr and everybody got all
together and said, okay, here'sgoing to be the plan and they
didn't include the people, andso people didn't feel
appreciated for the sacrificesthey've made.
(29:51):
They've changed their lifestyleand now they have to change
back.
Does anybody care about that?
You know, we found out that wecan get work done and I don't
want to commute five days a week, but there's this policy now,
right that somebody put in placeand remember senior leadership
(30:12):
making that policy.
Those are the same people whodidn't think remote work was
going to work in the first place.
Because they didn't.
I'm going to spill the tea onsenior leaders.
They put a good face on it, butnobody in the C-suite expected
remote work to be as successfulover the last three years as it
(30:33):
was.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Oh, and there's no question of that, and I think
also I don't think anyoneexpected the intensity that a
lot of people want thatopportunity to decide what they
want to do.
I think there's so much more inthe federal public service
right now in Canada.
Like I said, one of the biggestthings is they want more
clarity on what a hybrid modelwill look like, even though the
(30:57):
government's current model isyou will be at the office two
days a week.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Government is in a really rough situation
(31:29):
no-transcript.
Then there's the employees thatsaying, does this need to be
the soul crushing job that it'sbeen for a million years?
And then you've got thepolitical pressure of people
saying, hey, this is thepublic's money and, by the way,
all government employees arelazy money and, by the way, all
(31:51):
government employees are lazy,good for nothings, and they need
to be chained to the oar andwhipped until they grow faster,
because they're just governmentemployees and you know how they
are.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
So the beauty of Zoom calls and that's a part of the
whole aspect of the working fromhome, the remote sections of
these things is people werehaving to adjust to these
different worlds and now thatthey've gotten used to that, it
makes it challenging.
I am curious how might a leaderwho's in charge of one of these
teams, or in charge of aprevious existing team whatever
(32:19):
do you have some advice on howthey could help their team exist
inside a long-term?
Speaker 3 (32:32):
a long-term, long-distance team, remote
working team Boy?
I'm not quite sure what thatquestion is because it's pretty
broad.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Yeah, exactly how might a leader be able to help
their team exist in along-distance remote setup?
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Yeah, you know, in the long-distance leader we had
18 rules for making it work andthe number one rule was think
leadership first, locationsecond Don't be so freaked out
by the fact you're remote.
Focus on what is the job thatneeds to be done, what are the
(33:03):
roles, what does the workflowlook like?
And when you do that, you cansee where the choke points are.
Right, oh, we need to be, youknow, synchronous and having
meetings and being able to talkto each other for a certain
number of hours a day or acertain number of days a week
(33:28):
days a week and then that givesyou flexibility to do the rest
of it.
Does it really matter what timeof day that report gets written?
Probably not.
Does it matter that it is whereit needs to be at 10 am Tuesday
?
That matters, right.
So it all starts with firstprinciples.
If the work is getting done andpeople are engaged and things
(33:51):
are happening and customers'needs are being met and people
aren't fleeing in droves, it'sprobably going pretty well.
Is that?
If I'm walking through thebullpen and I see Simon banging
his head on his monitor, I canstop by and say, simon is
(34:19):
everything okay, right.
If I'm working remotely with youand I say, simon, how's it
going, you say fine.
My brain goes, oh, simon isfine, and I'm going to move on
right, because I can't see youbeating your head on your
monitor.
The first rule, by the way,that I have, is nothing is fine.
Anybody who has been marriedany length of time knows that
(34:39):
fine is not an answer, right, itcan mean yes, everything is
going exactly according to plan.
Thank you, no-transcript Right,but just hearing fine doesn't
(35:07):
help.
So the big thing is that weneed check ins not check ups,
but check ins that are frequentenough and rich enough that we
really know what's going on.
And that stems from peopletrusting and communicating on an
effective basis, where, ifsomebody has a problem, they
(35:27):
will be proactive about saying Ihave a problem, I have a
question, I need some help here,and so it requires a different
level of intentionality.
You know, there's a lot offollow-up questions that need to
be asked when we work remotely.
That no need to be asked whenyou're eyeball to eyeball with
(35:48):
somebody over a cup of coffeeDoesn't mean that it can't work,
doesn't mean that there aren'tincredibly high, productive,
engaged, fabulous teams andpeople out there.
They just require a differentsort of coaching and
encouragement than when we arein the same physical space.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, I completely agree in that it's understanding
the team and getting to knowthem, and not just beyond the
cursory hey, how's it goingtoday?
Okay, let's move on taking thattime.
In the book you talk about howteam leaders they own a lot of
the culture and you talkspecifically to three points,
and the first one is being themain connection and conduit
between the team and theorganization's macro culture.
(36:34):
You also talk about beingresponsible for helping new
people adapt and fit it into theway the team works.
And third, you speak aboutmodeling the behaviors and
attitudes that create thatdesired culture.
So basically, what I'm hearingis in all in all of that is very
similar to lead how you expectto be led.
That's how I kind of look atthat.
Does that make sense at all?
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Yeah, it does.
And again it goes back to thefact that being a manager leader
is a really hard job.
The way I've explained it foryears and stick with me because
this sounds weird at thebeginning with me, because this
sounds weird at the beginningManagers are literally the heart
of the organization.
I don't mean that in an Oprah,soft and mushy kind of way.
(37:15):
Think about the function of theheart.
Stuff comes down, it goes intothe heart, it gets oxygenated
and sent back out.
Well, as leaders, we have stuffcoming down from on high.
Right, we have the macroculture of the organization, we
have the goals, we have thedirection, and that comes from
(37:36):
on high and it comes to us.
We process it, we figure outhow are we going to communicate
this to our people and send itout.
Meanwhile, information iscoming from our teams up to us.
We have to process, oxygenateit and pass it up the food chain
.
So we are in a really uniqueplace.
(38:00):
We have to pass on the goal, thevision, the things that the
organization expects, thingsthat the organization expects.
We have to process it and turnit into a way that motivates and
inspires and helps our peopleachieve, and we need to take the
feedback from the team andoffer that up, and sometimes
(38:22):
that's a great place to be, andsometimes it's really
uncomfortable and weird,uncomfortable and weird.
Now to the third thing that yousaid, which is all of that is
great on paper and as we talkabout it, you could put vision
and mission statements up on thewall, but at the end of the day
, we need to model the skills wewant people to see, and that
(38:47):
includes things liketransparency and authenticity
and, you know, owning mistakesand all of that, because if
that's the culture that we want,we need to model that, because
every single person on the teamis looking to you first.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Yeah, absolutely, and it's, it's.
Those eyeballs are on us,regardless of whether it's
through a camera or together.
That's just a fact of thematter and some of the lessons I
know for myself.
When I was a newer leader, Iwasn't aware of the influence
that I had, and I mean even backwhen I was a teenager and I was
in air cadets and stuff likethat, I had no concept of the
fact that I'm in charge and thatmeans people are going to be
looking at me, for whateverreason, and in the military and
(39:35):
it clearly defined hierarchy.
It still took me a while toclue into that.
There's just someself-reflection that had to
happen and mistakes, many, many,many mistakes many mistakes.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
The thing that was the hardest lesson for me as a
leader is I feel powerless andfrustrated and whatever, but I
forget that there is always,always, always a power imbalance
between me and my directreports.
No matter how open I am, nomatter how friendly, no matter
how non-threatening I try to be,you are still the boss, and
(40:18):
this is why, on remote teams, wehave to be very careful about
that.
You know the scariest words inthe English language.
Words in the English languagehey, have you got a minute?
Oh, yeah, yeah, right, I'm busy.
I'm working away.
Suddenly up pops Kevin on myteam's chat, says hey, have you
got a minute?
(40:38):
Right?
Immediately my brain goes whatdid I do now?
Oh, I'm in the middle ofsomething.
Now I have to stop what I'mdoing.
What fresh hell is this?
What is he bringing my way?
On Kevin's part, it's alegitimate request for
information.
Hey, I need to talk to you fora minute.
Is this a good time?
Right, it's a perfectly validquestion.
(41:03):
But if all you get is, hey,have you got a minute, you're
causing way more drama andtension than you need to, right?
If you say, hey, can you dothis for me?
Again, perfectly valid request.
(41:25):
They hear drop everything dothis right now or you're fired
and we forget, no matter howbenevolent we try to be, that
power imbalance is always there,and so you know little things
like uh, have you got a minute Iwant to talk to you about x, or
have you got a minute?
No rush, but you know, beforetomorrow would be great.
(41:46):
Yes, it's an extra five secondson the keyboard, but it makes a
huge difference oh, absolutely,you know.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
So that's a lesson I learned very early on in my uh,
my military time.
When I got newly promoted, Iwould send nets out, say, hey, I
need to talk to you for asecond, and in my mind, for a
second was my way of saying thisis informal, but I never
verbalized that and a couple ofthe team players like a couple
of people on the team ratherthey they knew me well enough to
know that that's exactly what Imeant.
(42:16):
But a couple of the folks werea little more high strung in
their nature or just had adifferent way of interpreting
that information than I did, andI didn't realize I was causing
them a lot of stress.
Uh, and that's the big thing.
So one person during briefingwe were talking and they
mentioned this to me, say, hey,this is what I'm thinking about,
this, and that really made methink okay, this level of
(42:37):
influence, even though in mymind I'm like I'm a new, I'm the
first level leader in this, Idon't carry any authority.
Yes, I do, and whether or not Iwant to admit it, like you said
, there is that difference there.
And then.
So when I'm with Kelly and now,and I will often say, hey,
listen, do you have a second?
And I'll do the same thing.
Nothing urgent and nothing dire, I just have a question about
(42:59):
this and then we go forward fromthat.
The other day I was really,really busy I was having an
email heavy day and I sent thatnote, said I need this by this
by this time, and I got aresponse back that are you okay?
Am I in trouble?
Because people were used togetting that extra second to
understand that.
So it creates a bit of a bondas well that people say, hey,
simon's actually taking the timeto think about that.
Does that make any sense at all?
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Makes sense to me.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Fantastic.
Well, listen, wayne.
We've had a great chat so far.
I'm wondering, before we moveinto the lightning round, do you
have any final thoughts?
To sum this up?
Speaker 3 (43:37):
the big thing I'm a big believer in you are capable
of solving almost anything ifyou stop and think about it and
ask the right questions, andthat's what we're trying to do
with the long distance team isgive you the questions right,
the things that you need tothink about.
So if you can stop, think aboutwhat needs to happen, then odds
(44:04):
are you will make the rightdecisions right.
What happens is we don't stopand think and be intentional
about what we're trying toachieve.
We're just running and doing.
Take the time to ask thequestions, to think.
We're in a unique inflectionpoint in business right now
(44:25):
where there's a moment for us tocatch our breath and think
about this before we just startrunning again, and so take
advantage of that.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Take a breath.
There's always time to take abreath.
So, listen, we have had afantastic conversation, Wayne.
Now, if people want to reachout to you, they want to learn
more from you.
Just have a conversation.
How might they do that I?
Speaker 3 (44:49):
am not hard to find.
Obviously, the Kevin EikenberryGroup is our organization.
We actually have a websitespecifically for the book
longdistanceteambookcom.
People can find out about thebook.
There are downloadableresources, special offers, all
that stuff.
Linkedin Wayne Turmel.
(45:12):
I'm very open and happy tonetwork and talk to folks.
On Twitter.
It's W Turmel, although I warnyou that that is my personal
account and you may learn morethan you want to.
So yeah, we're very, very easyto find.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Fantastic, and did you want to take a moment and
talk about your podcast?
Speaker 3 (45:37):
We have a podcast called the Long Distance Work
Life.
Myself and a young woman whoworks in our office, very, very
talented person who's figuringout now how talented she is uh,
marissa.
And it's actually it's a weeklypodcast, but every other week,
one week is marissa and Italking, doing kind of a
(46:00):
discussion across generationsabout remote and hybrid work,
and then the following week willbe an interview with somebody
way smarter than me where wehave these conversations and
it's, it's wonderful.
It's a short listen, it's like20 minutes or so, and we're
(46:20):
really enjoying it and having ablast.
Just long distance work life inyour podcast aggregator, or
long distance work lifecom, isthe website with all the
episodes and transcripts andgood stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Perfect.
Thanks so much for that andthanks for taking the time today
.
This has been a lot of fun.
We've learned a lot and wespent a lot of valuable time
understanding how we canunderstand our long distance
teams and how to make themstronger.
Thanks so much.
I'm looking forward to havingyou and Kevin back for the part
three of this whole series.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
Thank you for the invitation, man, this has been a
blast, and thank you to yourlisteners.
I hope you found this valuable.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Thanks so much.
Take care.
That's a wrap from the front.
In this episode we talked aboutlong distance teams and the
role of the leader inside thoseteams.
We talked about that.
It's important to listen toyour team members, be
intentional, be honest andremember to think leadership
first location second.
Thanks for tuning in andremember leadership without
(47:20):
passion limits the depth of yourvision.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Never miss an episode by following us on all of your
favorite feeds.
Never miss an episode byfollowing us on all of your
favorite feeds.
While you're there, pleaseconsider leaving an episode
review and let us know whattopics you would like to hear
about.
Be sure to join us next weekwith your host, simon Cardinal,
for another episode of TrenchLeadership, a podcast from the
(47:45):
front Produced by iGlenn Studios.
Music provided by Ashamal ofMusic.
I would like to begin this episode by acknowledging
that I am located in Ottawa,Ontario, Canada, and I am
privileged and honoured to liveand learn on the unceded,
unsurrendered territory of theAnishinaabe Algonquin Nation.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, you're listening to Trench Leadership,
a podcast from the frontproduced by iGlenn Studios, a
show for emerging leaders fromall professions To hear from
other leaders who have led fromthe front, made the mistakes,
had the triumphs and are stilllearning along the way.
And now here's your host, simonCardinal.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Trench
Leadership, a podcast from thefront, a show for emerging
leaders.
Leaders are often required todesign their teams to achieve
maximum success, and the fact ofthe matter is there's an
expectation for leaders thatwe're going to make the best
teams possible, or often workwith the teams that are given to
(01:10):
us.
But that doesn't change thefact that in this quasi
post-COVID world, designingteams from a distance can and
has become a reality of today'sleaders.
But how do we do it?
In this episode you'll hearfrom Wayne Turmel, fellow
Canadian eh and podcast host,author and consultant for the
Kevin Eikenberry Group.
Wayne's going to talk about thechallenges of creating teams
(01:34):
from long distances, and thenWayne is going to offer his
insight into how leaders cancreate robust, diverse and
impactful teams.
But before we get into that, asalways, we're going to do the
visual representation.
So for myself, I'm wearing theblack golf shirt with the red
Trench Leadership logo over myleft side.
I've still got my black rimmedglasses.
(01:55):
There's still too much grayhere on the sides of my head and
my back wall is a photo of astone wall with the Trench
Leadership logo hanging.
It's still white and it isstill highlighted in purple,
although the actual TrenchLeadership logo is red.
Wayne, did you want to take amoment and tell us about your
physical location?
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Yeah, hi, I am actually in my home in Las Vegas
, so I am wearing a black golfshirt as well shirt as well.
I am gray on top, gray on myvery fuzzy face, and you cannot
see the plain, boring gray wallbehind me because I'm using a
backdrop of the Welcome to LasVegas sign and, for those of you
(02:38):
who are wondering, I'm notactually sitting in front of the
Welcome to Las Vegas sign.
It's far too windy today.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah, I would be impressed and that's some
impressive AV work to make thatwind and not be kicking in for
that.
So thanks so much for takingthe time today.
I know earlier we were talkingabout how you'd had a busy day,
but fortunately it sounds likewe're at the end of it for you.
So once we get through thisepisode you'll be able to take a
moment and go hit the slotmachines or whatever, whatever
your preference in being whatthey are.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
You are the only thing between me and lunch.
So don't you know I'm not toohangry at the moment, so you got
me at a good moment.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
That sounds great.
Well, listen, before we getinto this, I'm just wondering do
you mind taking a moment andtelling us a little bit about
yourself and the journey thatyou've been on, and, ultimately,
how you got to this point?
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Well, the journey is far too long and it's far too
early in the day to drink thebeverages that usually make this
story more palatable, but theway it works is this I'm from
Canada.
I was in the entertainmentbusiness in Canada, moved to LA
30 good heavens two years ago tobe a big star, and you can see
(03:50):
how well that worked.
At some point, the wife andchild insisted on eating, and so
I was looking for a big boy job, and since the only thing I
knew how to do was stand andtalk, I started teaching
presentation skills and got intothe training and development
area.
Very early on, like 18 yearsago or so, I started
(04:13):
specializing in virtualcommunication tools like WebEx,
and those types of things werebrand new and nobody was
teaching people how to use themeffectively, and so that became
my area of expertise, did thatfor many years, started my own
consultancy, and then KevinEikenberry, who I'd known for
(04:34):
years and is a fabulous thinkerin the leadership space.
He was getting questions aboutleading remote teams and
presenting.
Virtually.
I was in that space, but I wasgetting questions about
leadership and leading teams,and it just kind of made sense,
(04:54):
rather than invent two separatewheels, that we came together,
and so we formed what was then.
The Remote Leadership Instituteis now part of the Kevin
Eikenberry group and I lead thepractice around remote work, and
he and I have co-written threebooks the Long Distance Leader,
the Long Distance Team and theLong Distance Teammate.
(05:18):
And so here we are.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Well, thanks so much for that.
I'm seeing a little bit of atheme when it comes to your
books, something about longdistance in there.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
I don't know, maybe I miss reading that well, I've
written 15 books, but thesethree, uh, are specifically and
in long distance.
We chose long distancespecifically because, yes, more
and more people are workingremote and this was pre-COVID we
(05:48):
had started this series.
I like to say we were ahead ofour time by about 30 minutes,
but it's you know.
Now, with hybrid work andflexible work and fully remote
work and working across timezones and national boundaries,
the odds of leading a team whereyou are always in the same
(06:08):
location as the team are, not tomake a pun, fairly remote, and
so that's why we settled on thelong distance kind of theme for
the books.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Well, you know it's interesting you're talking about
that and how you're able to getahead of it.
I think a lot of people, mostpeople, had at least heard of
Zoom.
I know I had heard of Zoom, butI had never used it.
I had never even heard ofthings like Microsoft Teams, and
WebEx was just something that Ihad on my computer because of
course, I took with the militarybut it didn't work very well
and then everything overnightwas thrust into having to be
(06:45):
able to work remotely and thatwas a huge, a huge adjustment
for people.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Well, it had been building up for a long time.
I mean, I got my first big boyjob in 1996.
And even then I had a lot of myteam about half my team was
remote and we were working byphone and fax machine and you
know we still had emailaddresses.
(07:10):
When I got into the virtualpresentation space, there were
125 web presentation platformsout there, starting with WebEx
was the best known, but therewere tons of them and things
have just changing and evolving.
And as far as remote work,starting in about 2000,.
(07:31):
Remote work was growing at 25%a year before COVID.
So what happened was a lot ofpeople were thinking about
remote work.
It was kind of on the horizon.
We were starting to play withthe tools.
Frankly, a lot of people weredoing stealth telework which was
(07:53):
oh, I need to get this projectdone, I'm going to work from
home today.
That was already going on.
But what happened, of course,three years ago is we got pushed
across the Rubicon and it wasno longer theoretical and we
could no longer pretend like itwasn't happening and it was far
(08:15):
more.
It was far more chaotic than wewanted it to be and way less.
You know, people anticipatedespecially senior leaders that
it was going to be the end ofthe world as we know it.
In fact, productivity did notdrop.
Particularly Employeeengagement actually went up in
(08:38):
the early days of COVID and wehave found that we can make it
work.
So now we're in this space forleaders where some companies go
all right, everybody back to theoffice now, and we're gonna
pretend like the last threeyears didn't happen and that's
not gonna work.
(08:59):
I am not one of those peoplewho is a zealot for remote work.
I think where it's appropriateand where you can do it, great.
But I think the answer is findwhat's right for the company,
for the organization and for theteam and for you as a worker,
(09:19):
and then make it work.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, and that's the trick with it is understanding
how and when to make these teamsbe remote, why they need to be
remote, all the different things.
I know for myself I've spokenabout it on previous episodes
how the civilian company workedfor Callion.
I think that when we startedgetting back to the opportunity
to have to go back to the officeor not have to go back to the
office, but the opportunity todo that the company did it right
(09:44):
in that they sent out a surveyand said what do we want to do?
And ultimately, what they didwas they listened to the survey
and they said okay, what we'rehearing is each team needs to be
able to make their owndecisions, because that just
makes the most sense for thiscompany.
And that's what happened.
And it happens to be that myteam, we are all working from
home 100% of the time, and thenwe try and make it so that we
all go to the office one Tuesdaya month for our that happens to
(10:06):
be the day we do our weeklymeeting.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
And that works for us .
There's a bunch of stuff thatyou just said there which proves
that it's a good, smart companyfull of good, smart people,
right?
Number one thing is you realizereally early on that, depending
on the business you're in,depending on who your customers
are and depending on thebusiness you're in, depending on
(10:29):
who your customers are anddepending on the function that
you serve, right, one size doesnot fit all.
The second thing is theyinvolved the staff really early
on One of the phrases that.
Kevin came up with and I wish wehad thought of this in time to
get it in the book around.
Return to office is the idea ofpilot before policy Companies
(10:52):
that spend a lot of timethinking about this.
Okay, we're going to do thisand everybody's coming back
three days a week and we'regoing to do this.
We're going to do that.
And then they found out thattheir well laid plans didn't go
so swell, yeah, and so you knowpeople that took your approach.
Let's talk to the people, let'ssee what it is, let's give them
(11:14):
some autonomy, and right noweverybody's remote, but it's one
Tuesday a month.
Maybe we find out that's notenough, right?
Maybe we need to do that moreoften.
Maybe certain groups need to doit, Okay, but you've got room
now to maneuver and experimentand try things out.
You're not locked in.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yeah, I love that you talked about not being locked
in, and I think a lot of thethings with most leadership
principles or most leadershippolicies or practices whatever
the word we want to use, itdoesn't matter is about being
flexible and being open todifferent things.
It's certainly more comfortableto have a plan and stick to
that plan all the time, butthings change and if we don't
change then you end up goingaway.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Well, and I mean, let's face it, as much as people
were thinking about the futureof remote work, last three years
we've been living theexperiment, and the genie isn't
going back in the bottle.
A lot of people's assumptionsgot blown up.
There are certain jobs thatcan't be done remotely Well,
that's true, and there are a lotof jobs that we didn't think
(12:19):
could that are.
You know people will slack offand you know, watch TV all day
and not really get any work done.
Well, guess what Didn't happen.
And you know as well as I do,being in the office is no
guarantee you're getting anywork done.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
You know you can't build relationships over
distance.
You know a third't buildrelationships over distance.
You know a third of longdistance relationships now begin
online.
It's the world that we live in.
The times have changed Now.
Are there reasons to get backtogether?
Absolutely.
Are there reasons why you don'twant people to be remote 100%
(13:03):
of the time?
I get that, but are we makingthe right decisions for the
right reasons?
And what we do in the Long Deskas a team, it's really designed
to just help frame yourthinking so that you can be
intentional.
Whatever answer you come upwith, you're doing it for the
(13:23):
right reasons and in the rightway.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's interesting how, if wedon't come into this with
intentionality and listening tothe team members, how quickly
things can implode.
And the example I'd love to useis that at the time of this
recording, in Canada anyways,and we're in late April the
Federal public service, thelargest union they're striking
right now because one of themain sticking points is that
(13:48):
they want more opportunities andmore options for working from
home.
Of course, there's otherfactors being taken into account
, but this is one of the mainthings, because originally, when
the federal government came outand said that this, okay, we're
on the other side of COVID, sowhat we're mandating is everyone
will be at the office a minimumof two days a week, and when I
say everyone, I'm talking about155,000 people across the
(14:11):
country.
A blanket policy doesn't workfor one person, much less toss
it out there for 155,000 peopleacross a very large country.
It's wild.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Well, funny that you mentioned, because we do a lot
of work with the Americanfederal government and they
announced yesterday yesterdaybeing Wednesday, as we record
this that by Monday, everyfederal agency has to have a
plan to have people back in theoffice.
Well, it's madness.
(14:46):
I mean, first of all, the good,smart ones and there are good,
smart federal agencies werealready kind of working towards
that.
Yeah, and they were, and somepeople have already adjusted to
that.
The challenge is that there werethree things about returning to
(15:08):
the office that are creatinghavoc, and any leader needs to
know this anytime you want toinstitute a change, right?
The first thing is hey, youdidn't ask us about going home
in the first place.
You asked us to go home.
We sacrificed, we upheaved.
You know, our life was inupheaval.
We've proven we can get thework done, and now you're going
(15:28):
to pretend like this neverhappened, right?
So that's the first thing.
The second thing is there'ssomething called the endowment
effect, which basically is apsychological term that says
people fear losing somethingmore than they think about
(15:48):
gaining from it, right?
So all of a sudden, I've hadthree years I haven't had to
fight traffic on the Dawn Valley.
You know, I don't spend as muchon gas.
I don't even spend as much onchildcare, because my wife and I
can make you know, the schedulework.
And now we have to go back towhat we were before and I don't
(16:12):
like it, and some of it is justI don't like it.
I mean, human beings are goingto human.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
And the third thing is, if I have to do all that, if
I have to fight traffic and payCanadian gas prices and do all
the stuff I have to do, and Iwalk into the office, hang my
coat over my chair, sit at mykeyboard for eight hours, pick
up my coat and go home, why didI come in?
So the big thing about hybridwork and returning to the office
(16:47):
is really getting smart aboutwhat.
Not just where does work happenand what work happens, but what
work happens where and whenright.
One of the reasons I used towork from home was because I
couldn't get anything done inthe office.
I'm trying to work.
(17:08):
People are stopping by my desk,the boss can see me and
immediately, you know, calls me,and every time they have a
question, there's cake in thebreak room for somebody's
birthday.
So I got to deal with that, andsometimes I just need to put my
head down and get some workdone.
Well, maybe the office isn'tthe right place for that.
Meanwhile, if we're in theoffice a couple of days a week,
(17:34):
maybe that's when we have ourmeetings and I'm not on Zoom
from eight till five every day.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah, and that's the thing.
It's striking that balance.
That's what I'm hearing in thisis knowing, listening to the
people, but also listening toourselves, and knowing what
works best and when, and havingan honest look at ourselves, not
thinking well for like.
For myself, I like wearingshorts, so that was great.
I wore shorts pretty much everyday for three years.
It was wild, but some days Ihad better days where I got more
work done at home, and otherdays I wasn't as productive, and
(18:02):
that's all part of it.
That's okay, cause it's theexact same thing in the office.
My experience that people wouldget hung up in the fact you're
in the office versus not, andjust that mindset it was hard to
get past that.
Does that make any sense at all?
Speaker 3 (18:13):
It makes perfect sense.
And what you said is reallyimportant, which is you need to
be honest about what's going on.
Some companies are feeling veryhard done by.
They're like we've let peoplework from home, we've kind of
(18:35):
let them do their own thing, andnow we're calling them back in
and the ungrateful weaselsaren't, you know, aren't doing
this.
Well, why are you calling peopleinto the office?
And there are good, legitimatereasons and there are some tasks
that if I need to brainstormwith my fellow engineers and sit
at a whiteboard and do all thisstuff, yeah, being in the
office might be the right thingto do.
If I'm one of 15 people fillingout T-17 forms all day long
(19:00):
right, and my forms are gettingfilled out why do I have to show
up to the office?
So, what is the work that needsto be done?
What's the best way to get thatwork done right?
And and so the company, youknow, does the company have a
right to say what they want?
Yeah, they have a right to dothat.
(19:21):
They're paying the bills is agood business to dictate what
you want them to do and if theydon't want it, they can jolly
well quit.
That's one way to look at itright, not the one I'd pick, and
organizations that do that aregoing to find themselves with
(19:46):
turnover, and you know all ofthe problems with it.
Here's the thing I thinkleaders listening to this should
think about.
There's a bell curve, as therealways is when it comes to
return to what we found out.
There's about 10% of people whocould not get back to the
(20:07):
office fast enough.
My kids are driving me crazy.
I'm alone here.
I need human contact.
Get me back to the office.
Let's go.
On the other end of that bellcurve, there's about 12% of
people who said, nope, I've hadmy freedom, I'm not going back.
(20:28):
I am never again going back toa nine to five in the office job
.
And then there's the big gianthump in the middle of the bell
curve, which is everybody elsewho is okay, you know, let's
figure out what this looks likeand doesn't make sense, and you
know we'll do what we need to do.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Well, as I was reading the book the book that
I'm just going to show it hereto everyone the Long Distance
Team by Wayne and Kevin inchapter four you talk about how
we view work and you actuallytalk about that pattern and how
that is just the way it's beeningrained for so many years,
decades.
And all of a sudden we wereforced to have to look outside
that.
And sometimes force takes apush, a not so gentle nudge down
(21:12):
the stairs and and in this caseit's all about we're so used to
having to work together and nowwe're not.
And then all of a sudden, hey,this feels great, but eventually
there's kind of you know, thependulum is going to swing hard
one way, it's going to swinghard the other direction and
eventually it'll find its way inthe middle, and my perception
is that a pattern will becreated that works for
individuals and for the teams.
It will naturally work itselfout.
(21:33):
We just I think it's importantto give it the time to do that.
Do you have any thoughts onthat at all?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, there are a couple ofthings going on, right.
There is what does it mean togo to work for 150 years or so?
That meant you leave the housein the morning and you go to a
specific location and you dosomething for a prescribed
amount of time and then you gohome.
(21:57):
And that's what it meant to goto work, right, and that's
because that's where work gotdone, that's where widgets got
put together's, where people metto talk about stuff, it's where
your customers found you.
That's what work was dependent,and we have the technology to
(22:34):
allow us to do what we need todo.
So then it becomes why do what?
Is the right way to get thiswork done?
And we have more options thanwe've ever had.
And it's difficult when you'rejust running, running, running,
doing, doing, doing, we don'treally stop and think about it.
But we had three years where wewere forced to stop and, as
we're being intentional aboutgoing back to the office, now
(22:57):
it's, we have this brief windowwhere we can actually stop and
think about is this what we wantto do?
Because for everybody who says,yeah, I can't wait to get back
to the before times, yeah,exactly.
What's happened is there's beentwo waves of resistance to going
(23:18):
back to the office.
There was the great resignation, where you're 10 to 12% of
people who said, no, I'm justnot going back to heck with it.
But there was a second wavethat we're in the middle of now,
where people went back to theoffice and then they went oh
yeah, this kind of sucked RightLike they were excited to get
(23:38):
back to something like normaland they liked working with
their peers, but they alsoremembered all the stuff they
didn't like about it.
Also remembered all the stuffthey didn't like about it.
And we're in this space.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
we can actually make some choices now.
Oh, hello, there, it's Glenn,the voiceover artist, and if
you're hearing me, that meanswe're at the midpoint of this
episode.
Do you have an idea for anepisode that you feel is vital
for emerging leaders?
Leave the idea in the commentsection and, if your topic is
chosen, you will have theopportunity to join us as a
(24:15):
co-host during the recordingsession.
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
And the challenge, in my perception, is that and what
I'm hearing is that there's anopportunity to create these
teams in a way that makes themost sense, and if you feel
we've earned it please tellyour are, and even a little bit,
looking towards the future andin the book you talk about the
3-0 model of leadership, andthis is a way that leaders may
be able to kind of go towardscreating, maintaining whatever
(24:42):
their particular team theoutcomes, others and ourselves.
I'm wondering if you wanted tochat about that a little bit or
other ways that leaders may beable to build those teams.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
We're big on models and all the books leader,
teammate and team have models inthem.
They're all three somethingsright?
Three R's, three L's, whatever.
But in this case, the three Omodel model really is just.
If we stop and think about ourwork and particularly our job as
leaders, there are threecomponents.
(25:14):
There's the outcome that weneed right why does the company
hire us?
What do they need to do, whatare the goals we have to have?
And we focus on that really,really hard, really hard.
But as managers, as leaders, aspeople above entry-level
employees, we have to get thatwork done through other people
(25:42):
right.
So there's the job that needsto be done and we have to get
other people to do that job inthe right way.
And there's ourselves.
If we don't have it together, ifwe aren't taking care of what
we need to take care of, wecan't get those others to work
as we need them to work andwe're not going to get the
(26:02):
outcomes that we need.
And especially in the earlydays of COVID, a lot of managers
were burning out because theywere super focused on keeping
the plane in the air.
We have to make sure that we'regetting the work done and they
were being very aware of helpingtheir people, but they were
(26:27):
working too many hours, theyweren't disconnecting from their
devices, they weren't takingtime off.
You know, managers were burningout at an alarming rate in the
early days of COVID because theywere so focused on outcomes and
others that they forgot aboutthemselves.
Ideal team situation if you'reputting a team together,
(26:53):
obviously has to be focused onthe outcomes, right.
The company needs to do whatthe company needs to do to stay
in business and we have goalsand things that we have to
achieve, and we do that throughother people.
Well, if we mandate or setunreasonable expectations or
something for those other people, the work's not going to get
(27:15):
done.
And if we're not in the rightheadspace to help those people
get the work done, it's just notgoing to work.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah.
So what I'm hearing in this isthat it's on the leader to
create the culture, to be ableto set the standard or the pace
for the team.
Does that make sense at all?
Am I hearing it correctly?
Speaker 3 (27:35):
is dangerous because it sounds like the leader, and
we make this very clear in thebook.
You know there are a lot ofquestions and a lot of ways to
(27:55):
guide your thinking and you canthink about.
You know this is what I wantthe culture to be and this is
what the company should be.
But if it just comes from youand you alone, what you're going
to get is, at best, you'regoing to get compliance instead
of buy-in.
You know the process that yougo through to think about this
stuff is the same process thatshould be done with your team,
(28:19):
right?
I mean your employers said topeople hey, talk to us, what
does this look like?
What should we do?
Now you can actually come upwith something.
What is the manager'sresponsibility is to then guide,
coach and execute to whateverthat plan is.
And of course, we know, asmanagers we are in this lovely
(28:44):
vice between you know whatsenior leadership says they want
and what our people say theywant.
And oh, look, here's us tryingto orchestrate all of that.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah, and that's the big trick in that is I'll just a
little bit by saying thank youfor clarifying that In my mind.
I definitely was thinking, youknow, after having spoken with
the team and figured out exactlyhow we want to go forward, who
takes the reins to go forward,and a little bit of that, I
think.
The way some of the terminologyand I'm not making excuses is I
was in the military for a lotof years, so you know, it's just
(29:20):
the terminology I get used to.
That doesn't change the factthat I didn't explain myself and
that's dangerous too when we'rein those roles.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
well, and we are seeing companies who this is
where I said before pilot,before policy we have seen
people where senior leaders andhr and everybody got all
together and said, okay, here'sgoing to be the plan and they
didn't include the people, andso people didn't feel
appreciated for the sacrificesthey've made.
(29:51):
They've changed their lifestyleand now they have to change
back.
Does anybody care about that?
You know, we found out that wecan get work done and I don't
want to commute five days a week, but there's this policy now,
right that somebody put in placeand remember senior leadership
(30:12):
making that policy.
Those are the same people whodidn't think remote work was
going to work in the first place.
Because they didn't.
I'm going to spill the tea onsenior leaders.
They put a good face on it, butnobody in the C-suite expected
remote work to be as successfulover the last three years as it
(30:33):
was.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Oh, and there's no question of that, and I think
also I don't think anyoneexpected the intensity that a
lot of people want thatopportunity to decide what they
want to do.
I think there's so much more inthe federal public service
right now in Canada.
Like I said, one of the biggestthings is they want more
clarity on what a hybrid modelwill look like, even though the
(30:57):
government's current model isyou will be at the office two
days a week.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Government is in a really rough situation
(31:29):
no-transcript.
Then there's the employees thatsaying, does this need to be
the soul crushing job that it'sbeen for a million years?
And then you've got thepolitical pressure of people
saying, hey, this is thepublic's money and, by the way,
all government employees arelazy money and, by the way, all
(31:51):
government employees are lazy,good for nothings, and they need
to be chained to the oar andwhipped until they grow faster,
because they're just governmentemployees and you know how they
are.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
So the beauty of Zoom calls and that's a part of the
whole aspect of the working fromhome, the remote sections of
these things is people werehaving to adjust to these
different worlds and now thatthey've gotten used to that, it
makes it challenging.
I am curious how might a leaderwho's in charge of one of these
teams, or in charge of aprevious existing team whatever
(32:19):
do you have some advice on howthey could help their team exist
inside a long-term?
Speaker 3 (32:32):
a long-term, long-distance team, remote
working team Boy?
I'm not quite sure what thatquestion is because it's pretty
broad.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Yeah, exactly how might a leader be able to help
their team exist in along-distance remote setup?
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Yeah, you know, in the long-distance leader we had
18 rules for making it work andthe number one rule was think
leadership first, locationsecond Don't be so freaked out
by the fact you're remote.
Focus on what is the job thatneeds to be done, what are the
(33:03):
roles, what does the workflowlook like?
And when you do that, you cansee where the choke points are.
Right, oh, we need to be, youknow, synchronous and having
meetings and being able to talkto each other for a certain
number of hours a day or acertain number of days a week
(33:28):
days a week and then that givesyou flexibility to do the rest
of it.
Does it really matter what timeof day that report gets written?
Probably not.
Does it matter that it is whereit needs to be at 10 am Tuesday
?
That matters, right.
So it all starts with firstprinciples.
If the work is getting done andpeople are engaged and things
(33:51):
are happening and customers'needs are being met and people
aren't fleeing in droves, it'sprobably going pretty well.
Is that?
If I'm walking through thebullpen and I see Simon banging
his head on his monitor, I canstop by and say, simon is
(34:19):
everything okay, right.
If I'm working remotely with youand I say, simon, how's it
going, you say fine.
My brain goes, oh, simon isfine, and I'm going to move on
right, because I can't see youbeating your head on your
monitor.
The first rule, by the way,that I have, is nothing is fine.
Anybody who has been marriedany length of time knows that
(34:39):
fine is not an answer, right, itcan mean yes, everything is
going exactly according to plan.
Thank you, no-transcript Right,but just hearing fine doesn't
(35:07):
help.
So the big thing is that weneed check ins not check ups,
but check ins that are frequentenough and rich enough that we
really know what's going on.
And that stems from peopletrusting and communicating on an
effective basis, where, ifsomebody has a problem, they
(35:27):
will be proactive about saying Ihave a problem, I have a
question, I need some help here,and so it requires a different
level of intentionality.
You know, there's a lot offollow-up questions that need to
be asked when we work remotely.
That no need to be asked whenyou're eyeball to eyeball with
(35:48):
somebody over a cup of coffeeDoesn't mean that it can't work,
doesn't mean that there aren'tincredibly high, productive,
engaged, fabulous teams andpeople out there.
They just require a differentsort of coaching and
encouragement than when we arein the same physical space.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, I completely agree in that it's understanding
the team and getting to knowthem, and not just beyond the
cursory hey, how's it goingtoday?
Okay, let's move on taking thattime.
In the book you talk about howteam leaders they own a lot of
the culture and you talkspecifically to three points,
and the first one is being themain connection and conduit
between the team and theorganization's macro culture.
(36:34):
You also talk about beingresponsible for helping new
people adapt and fit it into theway the team works.
And third, you speak aboutmodeling the behaviors and
attitudes that create thatdesired culture.
So basically, what I'm hearingis in all in all of that is very
similar to lead how you expectto be led.
That's how I kind of look atthat.
Does that make sense at all?
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Yeah, it does.
And again it goes back to thefact that being a manager leader
is a really hard job.
The way I've explained it foryears and stick with me because
this sounds weird at thebeginning with me, because this
sounds weird at the beginningManagers are literally the heart
of the organization.
I don't mean that in an Oprah,soft and mushy kind of way.
(37:15):
Think about the function of theheart.
Stuff comes down, it goes intothe heart, it gets oxygenated
and sent back out.
Well, as leaders, we have stuffcoming down from on high.
Right, we have the macroculture of the organization, we
have the goals, we have thedirection, and that comes from
(37:36):
on high and it comes to us.
We process it, we figure outhow are we going to communicate
this to our people and send itout.
Meanwhile, information iscoming from our teams up to us.
We have to process, oxygenateit and pass it up the food chain
.
So we are in a really uniqueplace.
(38:00):
We have to pass on the goal, thevision, the things that the
organization expects, thingsthat the organization expects.
We have to process it and turnit into a way that motivates and
inspires and helps our peopleachieve, and we need to take the
feedback from the team andoffer that up, and sometimes
(38:22):
that's a great place to be, andsometimes it's really
uncomfortable and weird,uncomfortable and weird.
Now to the third thing that yousaid, which is all of that is
great on paper and as we talkabout it, you could put vision
and mission statements up on thewall, but at the end of the day
, we need to model the skills wewant people to see, and that
(38:47):
includes things liketransparency and authenticity
and, you know, owning mistakesand all of that, because if
that's the culture that we want,we need to model that, because
every single person on the teamis looking to you first.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Yeah, absolutely, and it's, it's.
Those eyeballs are on us,regardless of whether it's
through a camera or together.
That's just a fact of thematter and some of the lessons I
know for myself.
When I was a newer leader, Iwasn't aware of the influence
that I had, and I mean even backwhen I was a teenager and I was
in air cadets and stuff likethat, I had no concept of the
fact that I'm in charge and thatmeans people are going to be
looking at me, for whateverreason, and in the military and
(39:35):
it clearly defined hierarchy.
It still took me a while toclue into that.
There's just someself-reflection that had to
happen and mistakes, many, many,many mistakes many mistakes.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
The thing that was the hardest lesson for me as a
leader is I feel powerless andfrustrated and whatever, but I
forget that there is always,always, always a power imbalance
between me and my directreports.
No matter how open I am, nomatter how friendly, no matter
how non-threatening I try to be,you are still the boss, and
(40:18):
this is why, on remote teams, wehave to be very careful about
that.
You know the scariest words inthe English language.
Words in the English languagehey, have you got a minute?
Oh, yeah, yeah, right, I'm busy.
I'm working away.
Suddenly up pops Kevin on myteam's chat, says hey, have you
got a minute?
(40:38):
Right?
Immediately my brain goes whatdid I do now?
Oh, I'm in the middle ofsomething.
Now I have to stop what I'mdoing.
What fresh hell is this?
What is he bringing my way?
On Kevin's part, it's alegitimate request for
information.
Hey, I need to talk to you fora minute.
Is this a good time?
Right, it's a perfectly validquestion.
(41:03):
But if all you get is, hey,have you got a minute, you're
causing way more drama andtension than you need to, right?
If you say, hey, can you dothis for me?
Again, perfectly valid request.
(41:25):
They hear drop everything dothis right now or you're fired
and we forget, no matter howbenevolent we try to be, that
power imbalance is always there,and so you know little things
like uh, have you got a minute Iwant to talk to you about x, or
have you got a minute?
No rush, but you know, beforetomorrow would be great.
(41:46):
Yes, it's an extra five secondson the keyboard, but it makes a
huge difference oh, absolutely,you know.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
So that's a lesson I learned very early on in my uh,
my military time.
When I got newly promoted, Iwould send nets out, say, hey, I
need to talk to you for asecond, and in my mind, for a
second was my way of saying thisis informal, but I never
verbalized that and a couple ofthe team players like a couple
of people on the team ratherthey they knew me well enough to
know that that's exactly what Imeant.
(42:16):
But a couple of the folks werea little more high strung in
their nature or just had adifferent way of interpreting
that information than I did, andI didn't realize I was causing
them a lot of stress.
Uh, and that's the big thing.
So one person during briefingwe were talking and they
mentioned this to me, say, hey,this is what I'm thinking about,
this, and that really made methink okay, this level of
(42:37):
influence, even though in mymind I'm like I'm a new, I'm the
first level leader in this, Idon't carry any authority.
Yes, I do, and whether or not Iwant to admit it, like you said
, there is that difference there.
And then.
So when I'm with Kelly and now,and I will often say, hey,
listen, do you have a second?
And I'll do the same thing.
Nothing urgent and nothing dire, I just have a question about
(42:59):
this and then we go forward fromthat.
The other day I was really,really busy I was having an
email heavy day and I sent thatnote, said I need this by this
by this time, and I got aresponse back that are you okay?
Am I in trouble?
Because people were used togetting that extra second to
understand that.
So it creates a bit of a bondas well that people say, hey,
simon's actually taking the timeto think about that.
Does that make any sense at all?
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Makes sense to me.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Fantastic.
Well, listen, wayne.
We've had a great chat so far.
I'm wondering, before we moveinto the lightning round, do you
have any final thoughts?
To sum this up?
Speaker 3 (43:37):
the big thing I'm a big believer in you are capable
of solving almost anything ifyou stop and think about it and
ask the right questions, andthat's what we're trying to do
with the long distance team isgive you the questions right,
the things that you need tothink about.
So if you can stop, think aboutwhat needs to happen, then odds
(44:04):
are you will make the rightdecisions right.
What happens is we don't stopand think and be intentional
about what we're trying toachieve.
We're just running and doing.
Take the time to ask thequestions, to think.
We're in a unique inflectionpoint in business right now
(44:25):
where there's a moment for us tocatch our breath and think
about this before we just startrunning again, and so take
advantage of that.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Take a breath.
There's always time to take abreath.
So, listen, we have had afantastic conversation, Wayne.
Now, if people want to reachout to you, they want to learn
more from you.
Just have a conversation.
How might they do that I?
Speaker 3 (44:49):
am not hard to find.
Obviously, the Kevin EikenberryGroup is our organization.
We actually have a websitespecifically for the book
longdistanceteambookcom.
People can find out about thebook.
There are downloadableresources, special offers, all
that stuff.
Linkedin Wayne Turmel.
(45:12):
I'm very open and happy tonetwork and talk to folks.
On Twitter.
It's W Turmel, although I warnyou that that is my personal
account and you may learn morethan you want to.
So yeah, we're very, very easyto find.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Fantastic, and did you want to take a moment and
talk about your podcast?
Speaker 3 (45:37):
We have a podcast called the Long Distance Work
Life.
Myself and a young woman whoworks in our office, very, very
talented person who's figuringout now how talented she is uh,
marissa.
And it's actually it's a weeklypodcast, but every other week,
one week is marissa and Italking, doing kind of a
(46:00):
discussion across generationsabout remote and hybrid work,
and then the following week willbe an interview with somebody
way smarter than me where wehave these conversations and
it's, it's wonderful.
It's a short listen, it's like20 minutes or so, and we're
(46:20):
really enjoying it and having ablast.
Just long distance work life inyour podcast aggregator, or
long distance work lifecom, isthe website with all the
episodes and transcripts andgood stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Perfect.
Thanks so much for that andthanks for taking the time today
.
This has been a lot of fun.
We've learned a lot and wespent a lot of valuable time
understanding how we canunderstand our long distance
teams and how to make themstronger.
Thanks so much.
I'm looking forward to havingyou and Kevin back for the part
three of this whole series.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
Thank you for the invitation, man, this has been a
blast, and thank you to yourlisteners.
I hope you found this valuable.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Thanks so much.
Take care.
That's a wrap from the front.
In this episode we talked aboutlong distance teams and the
role of the leader inside thoseteams.
We talked about that.
It's important to listen toyour team members, be
intentional, be honest andremember to think leadership
first location second.
Thanks for tuning in andremember leadership without
(47:20):
passion limits the depth of yourvision.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Never miss an episode by following us on all of your
favorite feeds.
Never miss an episode byfollowing us on all of your
favorite feeds.
While you're there, pleaseconsider leaving an episode
review and let us know whattopics you would like to hear
about.
Be sure to join us next weekwith your host, simon Cardinal,
for another episode of TrenchLeadership, a podcast from the
(47:45):
front Produced by iGlenn Studios.
Music provided by Ashamal ofMusic.
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