April 28, 2025 • 44 mins
The moment you step into leadership, everything changes.
That friendly dynamic you once shared with teammates transforms overnight into something more complex and challenging. Suddenly, the person you shared drinks with last Friday is now the one whose performance you must evaluate on Monday.
In this compelling episode, Kevin Eikenberry, Chief Potential Officer of the Kevin Eikenberry Group and host of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, breaks down the delicate transition from team member to team leader. With nearly 30 years of leadership experience, including over a decade managing remote teams before it became commonplace, Kevin offers rare insight into navigating what he calls the "bud to boss" transition—that crucial career moment when friendship and authority must find a new equilibrium.
Kevin’s Episode Links:
1. Website: http://KevinEikenberry.com
2. About Me: http://KevinEikenberry.me
3. YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@KevinEikenberry
4. Bud To Boss YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BudtoBossOfficial
5. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevineikenberry/
Kevin’s Recommended Book/Movie/Podcast List:
Books:
1. The Bible
2. Any book by Tom Peters or Peter Drucker
Movies:
1. Lincoln
2. Hoosiers
Podcasts:
1. Long-Distance Work life – Produced by our team (hosted by Wayne Turmel and Marisa Eikenberry)
2. Read to Lead with Jeff Brown
Trench Leadership: A Podcast From the Front is humbled to have been named #5 in the Top 20 for Best Canadian Leadership-themed podcasts for 2025.
Connect to Trench Leadership:
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYnaqOp1UvqTJhATzcizowA
Trench Leadership Website: www.trenchleadership.ca
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/trench-leadership-a-podcast-from-the-front/?viewAsMember=true
Are you looking for a podcast editor/producer? Do you enjoy the quality of the show? The editor of Trench Leadership, Jennifer Lee, is taking new clients. Reach out at https://www.itsalegitbusiness.com.
Reviews are the best way for the show to know what is working, what needs improvement, and what to talk about in the future.
If you have a topic that you're passionate to hear more about, feel free to reach out at simonk@trenchleadership.ca to connect and share your ideas.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Simon Kardynal (00:07):
I would like to begin this episode by
acknowledging that I am locatedin Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, and
I am privileged and honoured tolive and learn on the unceded,
unsurrendered territory of theAnishinaabe Algonquin Nation.
Glen (00:24):
Hello, you're listening to Trench Leadership
From the Front produced by iglenstudios, a show for emerging
leaders from all professions tohear from other leaders who have
led from the front, made themistakes, had the triumphs and
are still learning along the way.
And now here's your host, SimonKardynal.
Simon Kardynal (00:52):
Hello and welcome to Trench Leadership
Podcast From the Front, a showfor emerging leaders.
The transition from a teammember to being the leader is
never, ever easy.
One day we're hanging out,being buddies with everyone, and
the next day we're in charge,having to make decisions,
pushing to meet organizationaldeadlines, having to make the
(01:13):
tough calls, doing all of it,and none of it is easy.
So how can we make that leapfrom bud to boss, creating
strong and impactful teams?
In this episode, you'll hearfrom Kevin Eikenberry, Chief
Potential Officer of the KevinEikenberry Group and host of the
Remarkable Leadership Podcast.
Kevin will offer advice andinspiration for frontline
(01:34):
leaders to be their mostremarkable selves during the
transition from bud to boss.
But, as always, it's neverabout me, it's about the guests.
So I'm going to go ahead andwelcome in Kevin.
Hey Kevin, how are you doingtoday?
Kevin Eikenberry (01:48):
Simon, I'm fantastic Glad to be with you.
We finally got this puttogether.
Simon Kardynal (01:50):
I'm glad to be here.
We finally figured this out.
There was some confusion, alittle bit of internetery going
on, but it worked out well.
We're finally here and this isfantastic.
I'm super excited to have aconversation about this
particular topic because it'snear and dear to my heart and
it's something that comes up inso many of our episodes, but I'm
not going to tell people whatthe topic is just yet.
Before we do that, how aboutyou take a moment and just tell
(02:13):
us a little bit about yourself,your journey and, ultimately,
how we got to this point?
Kevin Eikenberry (02:18):
I was born on the day.
I grew up on a farm.
I grew up in a farm family andwe had a variety of farm and
agriculture related businesses.
The reason that matters here isthat I found myself working
with my father and learning andspending a lot of time with
adults long before I was anadult and had the chance to lead
(02:39):
long before I was an adult,long before I was an adult, and
so that plays a role in the factthat you know I now lead and
run a company.
That plays a role into myinitial thinking about what
leadership is, can and should be, and hopefully helps me make my
leadership thinking verypractical.
And so now, simon, after a fewother things along the way, for
(03:03):
nearly 30 years I've led acompany called the Kevin
Eikenberry Group, and for thelast 20 plus of that, it's not
just been Kevin but it hasactually been a group, and there
are currently 14 of us spreadout across the United States.
So I'm leading a team every day.
That is virtual.
One person comes to the officea couple days a week.
Fundamentally, for well over adecade, I've led a fully remote
(03:25):
or hybrid team, and we're out inthe world helping leaders make
a bigger positive difference inthe world, and the most
challenging part of that is thefirst time we do it.
Simon Kardynal (03:37):
Yeah, absolutely .
The good news is for thelisteners out there.
If you're thinking, wow, thisteam has been working virtually
for long, before COVID was evena word people had heard of, and
you're thinking, wow, I surehope they have a conversation
about that, not to worry, thatwill be coming down the road,
that's on its way.
But for today we're going totalk about that crazy transition
(03:58):
that happens when we go frombeing someone's friend, their
buddy in the team, their bud, tobeing that boss and the
challenges and everything thatcomes with being inside that
transition.
So, Kevin, I'm going to try andbe quiet and let you take it
away.
Tell us about that transitionand what your thoughts are.
Kevin Eikenberry (04:14):
Well, my colleague and friend and I got
here and wrote a book about thatcalled From Bud to Boss.
That came out in 2011.
We had been working withleaders in that situation, built
a workshop around that prior tothat.
So a lot of times people willwrite a book.
Simon, this was the other wayaround, at least the first round
of it.
So when we got ready to writethe book from Bud to Boss, we
(04:35):
knew from the training we'd donewhat the most important
questions people had were.
So we made that list and wesaid the book's not done until
we've answered all thosequestions.
So the book isn't writtenaround those.
I think it was about 20questions exactly, but we made
sure that the answers to all ofthose were in there because, as
I said, hinted at earlier, thattransition to being a leader for
(04:56):
the first time is the mostchallenging in our career, and
especially if we happen to nowbe leading people that we used
to work side by side.
Like last week we went for abeer and next week, simon, I'm
doing your performance review.
Like that's hard.
Simon Kardynal (05:13):
Right, that's hard oh, very, very much so, and
I know, like my experience withthat, were in the canadian
military, in the air force, andit was very difficult because,
especially in the canadian airforce, I was very difficult
because, especially in theCanadian Air Force I can't speak
to the American Air Force, butfor us the strength of the Air
Force is that it creates andfosters an environment whereby
(05:35):
everyone on the team, regardlessof their rank, feels as though
they have an opportunity to havea voice, to speak up, and that
culture predominantly exists tohelp with airworthiness and
ensure aircraft and personnelsafety.
So it's fantastic.
It's a very strong, robustprogram.
The challenge with that is italso helps people forget
sometimes that they're in themilitary and that there's a very
(05:55):
clearly defined chain ofcommand.
So what happens a lot of timesis someone will be on a
particular wing because inCanada we call our air bases
wings and one day you're indoing your thing, you're a
corporal on the team and you'reso corporals are workers,
strictly workers and then all ofa sudden you're promoted.
The next day you're the mastercorporal and you're in charge
and, like you just said, all ofa sudden, literally that next
(06:17):
day, you're writing annualevaluations on the person you're
out having beers with and a lotof times the expectation is
we're going to talk about yourevaluations during the next
round of beers.
It causes a lot of confusionand challenges inside that.
Do you have any thoughts onthat at all?
Kevin Eikenberry (06:33):
Oh.
So let's start here.
A lot of times, people say,well, man, it would just be so
much easier if I were leadingpeople that didn't know me, and
I would say, maybe, but let'sthink about this.
Are there pitfalls, stumblesand challenges that we can come
across, based on what Simon hasjust described?
Of course, think about it.
Would you rather have thechance to lead people that
(06:53):
already know you, that you havea relationship with, that you
have some trust in, that youhave some experience with, or
people with whom there is noneof that?
And I think that, yes, thereare challenges and such, but I'd
pick the first, every day, allday long, and twice on Sunday,
because, at the end of the day,what people want from a leader
(07:14):
is someone that they know, likeand trust, and you've got a leg
up on that.
Hopefully, if you've gottenpromoted and you know, hopefully
the team does know you but alsolikes you and trusts you.
Now we just have to refocus,change the boundaries a bit,
perhaps, and really get some newclarity about expectations and
(07:35):
roles.
And, as I said, regardless ofwhen you make this move into a
leadership role, there's a lotof new skills and stuff that you
need to build, but if you'redoing that with people who
literally are your friends.
There's this other set oftransition conversations that we
probably need to have, and wecan talk about those if you want
, but we have to get clear abouthow we want our relationships
(07:59):
to be now.
Leaders make a couple ofmistakes.
When they're in this case, theyeither decide to move away and
become aloof or to removethemselves because they're
afraid of the friendship.
Right, or they lean into thefriendship and say it'll all be
fine because we already knoweach other and all will be well,
(08:20):
and neither of those is theright answer.
You need a strong workingrelationship.
If you are friends, great.
If you become friends, I thinkthat's fine.
The challenge for us as leadersis to be friendly but not to try
to make a friend.
Right To be likable, but nottry to be liked.
And the mistake on the one endis I want to be liked.
(08:42):
I want them to still like me.
I want to still be a yes, I'mthe boss, but I'm still a member
of the team.
Like, be aware that you mightget invited if you were
barbecues now, and you have tobe okay with that, but you need
to have a conversation withpeople about, like, how are we
going to work together now?
What is okay for us to talkabout or not?
And I think, ultimately, whatare the thing you have to
(09:03):
recognize.
I'll just say, if it's you,simon, we're buddies, but now
I'm the boss, Simon, some of thestuff that we used to talk
about.
If we talk about it now, Ican't take off my boss hat, I
just can't.
It's part of my role.
Now.
Maybe there's some things thatyou will choose not to tell me
(09:23):
about what's going on on theteam, not because you don't
trust me, but because you knowthat I don't want you to put me
in a situation where I have totake action that you might have
assumed I wouldn't, just becausewe always used to talk about it
, but now I have a differentrole and I have to take that
seriously.
Simon Kardynal (09:41):
That's a big challenge for leaders to
remember that there is going tobe some changes there.
It's not just about a littlebit of a pay bump or the added
responsibility someone may ormay not have been looking for.
There are going to befundamental changes and to be
okay with that and I think formyself when I was going through
these things a lot of times itcame down to having an honest
conversation with myself.
Starting with that and beinghonest what am I looking for?
(10:02):
Am I okay with this?
Where?
Kevin Eikenberry (10:10):
I want to go Ask myself those questions, to
be honest with myself and gofrom that.
Do you have any thoughts Ahundred percent Like we've got
to be clear about so?
So whether we aspired to thisor whether it was offered to us
or whatever.
But you know, we've put on ourpants every morning right In the
past, or our clothes, I guess,I should say.
And tomorrow, after thepromotion, we're going to put on
our clothes again and we'regoing to think things haven't
changed because we're still us.
(10:30):
But a lot of things have changed.
We have to start working on andbuilding some new skills.
We're going to be seendifferently by the team, even if
they already know us, and wecan say it's not fair.
Maybe it is and maybe it isn't,but it is reality.
Because here's the thing If yougrew up and I will speak only
to Western culture, although I'mnot sure it's all that
different anywhere else If yougrew up in Western culture,
(10:52):
there's all sorts of stuff inthe back of our heads about the
boss right, we heard it aroundthe dinner table, we saw it on
the TV.
Heck, there was a movie calledHorrible Bosses, and then they
made a sequel, like they nevermade a movie called Awesome Boss
, but it was not hard for peopleto say, oh yeah, horrible Boss.
I had one of those ones and infact, depending on the kind of
(11:14):
work that you're doing, you mayhave gotten promoted from the
shop floor.
And now people are saying youwent to the dark side, you
changed teams, you aren't in theunion anymore.
I'm just saying all stuff thatI've heard a million times, and
so the reality is, yes, you'restill you the next day, but the
way people see you is now notjust you, but it's boss you.
(11:40):
And we have to recognize thatthe standard has changed.
The expectations have changed,the way people look at us has
changed.
We have to be self-aware toyour point enough to do what
we're going to need to do to besuccessful in the new role.
Simon Kardynal (11:57):
Absolutely.
A lot of times we're talking.
You had mentioned about Westernsociety and the way we view a
little bit.
You touched on the way we viewleaders and I think a big part
of why people tend to get caughtup how we're going to move
forward from going from thatbuddy to the boss ideology is
because the metrics that areused for valuing success are
(12:17):
moving up a chain of command ormoving up that corporate ladder
or whatever that is, and thatinevitably means more
responsibility, more leadership,responsibility, whatever that
might be.
But is that what a person wants?
Kevin Eikenberry (12:29):
We don't know yet exactly.
I mean, there are lots of folkswho, well, if I want to be
successful, I want to be seen assuccessful, if I want to make
mom proud, I need to be promoted, and success looks like making
more money, et cetera, likethere's a whole bunch of that
stuff and I'm not saying it'sall through, but it's all in
many of our heads.
It's certainly in thecollective society's head, and
(12:52):
so sometimes we put pressure onourselves to do that because
that's what we think we shoulddo, what we're expected to do,
what someone else wants us to do.
And more and more organizations, especially organizations of
any size, are building ways forpeople to be promoted and to be
differently rewarded, sort of ona technical track versus a
leadership track.
But if that's not true in yoursituation I think back to your
(13:14):
point about having theconversation with yourself is
really important, becausethere's a lot of responsibility
that comes with leading a teamas as well as opportunities in
terms of the impact that we canhave on others as well as the
business.
But it's a big set ofresponsibilities and if you're
feeling like you've started,you're feeling like I'm not sure
(13:35):
that's what I want, then Ithink you need to really think
about it and it's too importantto try to do it halfway and
chances are you got promotedbecause you didn't do it halfway
before.
Simon Kardynal (13:48):
Exactly.
Kevin Eikenberry (13:49):
And that will get in your way too.
It's like, well, you know, I'mkind of skating by, but you
didn't skate by before, mostlikely, or you would never
gotten the promotion.
So I think it's reallyimportant to spend that time
thinking about what is it that Ireally want here?
And if this is what I want,great, because it's all skills
that you can learn and you canwork on getting better at.
And listening to Simon'spodcast and maybe listening to
(14:11):
mine or reading our book fromBud to Boss may help.
There's a lot of things, a lotof resources, to help you on
that growth path.
Don't get discouraged if it'shard, but just make sure that
you really want to be committedto doing that.
Simon Kardynal (14:23):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I mean one of the things thatI've seen over my career,
especially in the Air Force.
Not so much when I was in theinfantry because I was a young
kid I was 19 to 24.
So I'm okay with admitting Iwas still pretty immature when I
got into the Air Force and Istarted getting close to
promotions for myself some ofthe teams I came across people
that were turning down theirpromotions and I couldn't wrap
(14:44):
my mind around them, like whywouldn't you want to do this?
And I'd ask them like what areyou thinking?
Like you can't do anything inthis.
And what I respected was the guyit happened in this case it was
a guy and he said to me he'slike well, I don't, I don't want
the responsibility, why would Ido that?
And and that really struck achord with me and that's kind of
(15:07):
the first time it sparked athought in my mind do I want to
do more work?
Do I want to that addedresponsibility?
In my case that happened to beyes.
But around that time I alsostarted looking at other leaders
that were getting promoted,especially in those first roles,
those emerging leaders, amaster corporal in the Air Force
and I saw.
(15:28):
I was able to watch people justbe absolutely miserable.
Some people were it was becausethey were figuring out how to
be, how to find their own flavorof leadership, but a lot of
people, I'll tell you they didnot want to be in that role and
they regretted it, but they were.
There was a lot of concern andI asked a couple of people and
it was like, well, I get paid abit more, so that helps my
(15:48):
family and I want people torespect me and I'm thinking well
, I'll respect the personregardless.
Kevin Eikenberry (15:55):
They already respected you, you wouldn't have
been promoted.
That's exactly.
You bring up that word respect.
I think what we really want isto be respected for who we are
and what we do, not the rolethat we have.
So I feel like if that's areason I want to be promoted,
it's probably not a very goodone, because what you're
actually hoping to gain you'renot going to gain for the
(16:18):
reasons you want to gain it, ifthat makes sense.
I've had the chance to helpliterally hundreds of leaders
that are in this transition orhave been through this
transition.
The issues are similar for allof us.
Being a leader is a complex setof things.
There's a lot of things that wehave to do to keep a plane
airborne or to make it airworthy, and I don't know them and you
(16:39):
do, but what I know is it's along list and it's a lot of
stuff.
I also know that it's kind of adiscrete list.
When we do these things, theplane's going to be good to go.
When we're leading, it's not asblack and white as that and
there's not only one single wayto do it.
There's a number of things thatprobably got us successful as an
individual contributor that wereally have to shift our
(17:01):
approach.
We really have to shift ourmindset.
We have to shift our approach.
We really have to shift ourmindset.
We have to shift our mindsetaround relationships, which
we've talked a little bit about,but we also have to shift our
mindset around the perspectivethat we need to have.
You have to start to become astudent of different things if
you want to be an effectiveleader than being the student
that you were, to become ahighly effective and valued
individual contributor.
So there's just things we haveto think about and look at and
(17:23):
learn differently than when wewere in an individual
contributor.
So there's just things we haveto think about and look at and
learn differently than when wewere in an individual
contributor role.
And if that's not what you wantto sign up for, then don't sign
up for it no-transcript.
Simon Kardynal (18:07):
This is going to take time.
Kevin Eikenberry (18:08):
Well, it's this one now Come on.
Simon Kardynal (18:09):
That's different .
That's totally different.
I'm teasing.
Go ahead.
And the trick with all of thisis to be patient.
Understand that it's going totake a while to figure out
ourselves.
Very few people are naturalleaders with quotations, and
even if they are perceived to bethat way, it's because they
spent a lot of time onintrospective thoughts and
considerations to figure outexactly where they wanted to go.
(18:30):
No one will convince me thatJFK, magically, was a superb
leader.
He took time to figure it outGreat speech writer but he took
time to figure out the type ofleader he wanted to be.
Kevin Eikenberry (18:42):
Here's the thing, people ask me all the
time, "evin are leaders made orare they born?
And my answer is yes.
I mean there are things aboutwho you are, as you're listening
or watching us right now, thatare the seeds of you being a
highly effective leader.
They're not the same thingsthat are the seeds, necessarily,
for me or for Simon or for acolleague of yours, and yet it's
(19:04):
not just genetics.
It's like you learn how to ridea bicycle right, and if you
learn how to ride a bicycle in aneighborhood, not everyone
learns to ride at the same speed, the same rate.
Some of us seem to be better atit faster.
Simon Kardynal (19:18):
Yeah.
Kevin Eikenberry (19:19):
Right.
And even if you didn't, even ifyou grew up on a farm like I
did, you sort of know thatthat's true.
Like, some people learn itfaster than others, and there's
reasons why, and some of themare genetic.
Like you have better hand-eyecoordination, you have better
balance.
Like you got there faster.
Question is so there are somepeople that had better bike
riding genes.
Okay, who's the best bike ridertoday?
(19:41):
The people that put their button a seat and ride.
Not the people that might'vebeen fastest to learn it, for
whom it came easiest to at thestart.
But those who keep learning,keep doing, keep trying, keep
practicing.
(20:01):
And, of course, riding abicycle is far simpler than is
leadership.
But I think the metaphor is apt.
If you're new and you'restruggling a little bit, it's
common for people to say man, Ijust wish I was as good at this
as Simon.
Simon's got this figured out.
I'll never be as good at thisas Simon.
(20:23):
Said no one ever but sure, Towhich I would say stop putting
the comparison in the wrongplace.
What we tend to do is we tendto compare ourselves to people
who are truly expert and thatseems like such a big gap right
(20:43):
and that's rarely serving us.
Can you learn from Simon?
Yes, keep listening to thepodcast.
Can you learn from the leaderthat is around you?
Yes, keep observing them andget mentoring from them.
But trying to become them orcomparing yourself to them is a
losing battle.
It's not the right thing to do.
Glen (21:04):
Oh, hello there.
It's glen, the voiceover artist, and if you're hearing me, that
means we're at the midpoint ofthis episode.
Do you have an idea for anepisode that you feel is vital
for emerging leaders?
Leave the idea in the commentsection and, if your topic is
chosen, you will have theopportunity to join us as a
co-host during the recordingsession.
(21:25):
So drop us a note and let'stalk.
This podcast is made possibleby listeners like you, and if
you feel we've earned it, pleasetell your friends and leave a
review to help us grow ourfollowing.
And now back to the show.
Simon Kardynal (21:45):
Oh, absolutely, you know, I think of you, know
we've talked about hero worshipand we most leaders, have
someone like you had just spokenabout, have someone we look to
and say, gee, I sure wish I'dlike to be that person.
Kevin Eikenberry (21:55):
Like Simon everybody.
Like Simon exactly, I'll go withthat.
Sure, you know there's like, hey, I really liked the way that
person talks about that, or theway Simon speaks this way or
whatever.
I want to be that person andoften when I've had those types
of conversations I say to peoplewell, figure out what works
best for you, keeping in mindthat the way I do it works is
it's a bit for me.
(22:15):
That doesn't mean that I my wayof doing things is perfect for
every, every individual, andit's about finding the flavor
that works for ourselves.
And and I'd also like tocaution people about hero
worship it it can often give usrose-colored glasses on what we
think about a person'sleadership perspective or
everything in general, and thatcan be dangerous when we're
(22:38):
trying to maybe emulate aspectsof what that leadership is going
to go towards.
So my advice might be to peopleto remember that everyone poops
, that at the end of the day, nomatter what, we are all people
and we're all going to go to thebathroom and not one of us is
any more special or importantthan the other.
We all poop and it's theuniversal equalizer.
(23:01):
I think this is an importantconversation because here's the
reality.
I've done this exercisehundreds of times.
You got a group of people inthe room.
Say think of a leader that youthink of as highly effective.
Don't tell me who.
Just think of a person, now,write down five reasons why
they're good.
Everyone makes their list.
Five reasons, 10 reasons, threereasons, whatever.
Everyone writes their list downand then I say tell me stuff on
(23:22):
your list.
And we put the list on a flipchart or on a virtual whiteboard
or whatever.
We make the list from thegroup's list.
The group is saying thesepeople are great leaders, here's
what they do.
And then we put the list up onthe wall and then I say well,
who's that?
And nobody is that, and evenyour person isn't all of that.
Because what we've now done iswe've said a great leader is all
(23:45):
of these things and we couldsay that's all true, but there's
no one that is at the top ofall of those things.
Simon Kardynal (23:51):
Yeah, exactly.
Kevin Eikenberry (23:53):
Wayne Gretzky might be the greatest hockey
player ever, but he wasn't thegreatest every part of being a
hockey player ever.
He can't have a fatal flaw.
If Gretzky couldn't have skated, the rest wouldn't have
mattered, and if you watch hiscareer, he got better at some
things as his career went on.
He's never going to be the bestdefenseman ever Doesn't mean
(24:15):
he's not a great hockey player.
You can be a great leaderwithout being great at every
leadership.
Behavior Can't have a fatalflaw.
If you're playing basketball,you got to be able to dribble.
If you're playing hockey, yougot to be able to skate.
If you're driving NASCAR, yougot to be able to turn left.
But like the point is that youcan't have a fatal flaw.
(24:36):
But then what you got to do ishave a really healthy
understanding of strengths andweaknesses, and I work on my
weaknesses and work on mystrengths.
You thought of a great leaderbased on their best strengths,
not because of absence ofweakness.
Simon Kardynal (24:53):
Yeah, I absolutely agree with that, and
it's what we're looking at andhow we want to interpret that
information is what we're basingour decisions and our judgment
on, and that's a big part ofthat, and recognizing that it's
challenging though, especiallywhen we're feeling the pressure
to get, when we're inside theseroles and all of a sudden we're
thrust into the positions.
Hopefully the organization hasset the individual up, helped
(25:15):
the member receive some trainingor some type of leadership
education.
More often than not, that's notthe case and that's challenging
.
So maybe someone should go reada book called From Bud to Boss
to help them get through theirthings.
I'll just throw that out there.
Kevin Eikenberry (25:29):
Well, that would be helpful.
From Bud to Boss is a greatplace to start.
But let me go back to somethingelse you just said, and that is
sometimes maybe theorganization hasn't set us up to
succeed by giving us trainingor whatever.
But there's other waysorganizations may not have set
us up to succeed, like notgiving us clear expectations of
what we're supposed to do.
And so when you said we putpressure on ourselves yes, often
we do, and we often putpressure on ourselves in ways
(25:50):
that isn't helpful, likesometimes we'll say to ourselves
well, as I'm the leader, so Imust have all the answers.
No, and in fact, have you everhad a boss that was a
know-it-all?
And if you have, you'reprobably saying, well, that's
not the one I want, so why wouldwe even put that expectation on
ourselves?
It's just, it's not healthy,it's not helpful and it's not
(26:10):
even the right answer ultimately.
But what I want to go back to isdon't lament if the
organization hasn't done thethings to set you up to succeed.
If you don't know clearlywhat's expected of you ask, keep
going back and say listen, Iwant to do the best I can
possibly do as a leader.
I need to know what the bar is.
Help me understand what are themost important things you need
me to be doing in my role tohelp us reach our goals.
(26:31):
If you don't know those things,you need to ask until you get
them, and I can tell you thatyou might not get them right
away, because sometimes peoplearen't used to being asked that
question, but they really wantyou to be successful.
Don't lament that they haven'tgiven you training.
Go get it, or listen to more ofthis podcast, or go read from
Bud DeBoss or whatever.
Don't just wait.
(26:52):
Act.
Simon Kardynal (26:54):
And that's a big part of that is that that
action to actually go and dosomething, quite often in the
absence of any real information.
We'll just fill those gaps,we'll fill the blind spots with
whatever we choose to go with.
Kevin Eikenberry (27:06):
More often than not it tends to go to the
far right extreme of some typeof worst case scenario yeah, and
the other thing we do when wedon't know what we're supposed
to do as a leader, we startdoing what we've seen other
people do, even if they weren'tgood.
Simon Kardynal (27:22):
I'm vigorously nodding my head right now.
Kevin Eikenberry (27:25):
Right.
So and then, if you ask themwell, did you like it when they
did that?
No, so don't do it.
Simon Kardynal (27:39):
Right, absolutely.
I remember one time when I wasa new sergeant and I was in
teaching basic training and I'mdoing all my different stuff and
we're training the candidatesand everything's going great, or
so I thought.
And then come to find outafterwards I thought I was doing
a fantastic job.
So one of the days I was, asI'm going through this course,
I'm talking to students, so howare things going?
And all the candidates are like, oh, it's going great, sarge
thanks, big thumbs up and smilesand whatnot.
So one time I was coming aroundand I just asked this question
(28:00):
and then I said, yeah, right on,great.
And I, I.
This was also my, my realizationfor me, where I realized that I
was doing drive by questions.
So I would, I would be cruisingby and I'd ask them a question
and I wouldn't even stop walkingRight, so I'm not.
The message I was sending themwas I'm going to ask the
question Cause I feel like Iknow I should, but not even take
the time to stop and listen tothe response.
(28:21):
So I got around the corner inthis drive-by question and I
realized I forgot my pen orsomething.
So I turned the corner, made myway back around and, as I'm
coming back, I can now hear themsaying why is he even asking us
this?
He doesn't give a shit about us.
(28:45):
I hope that's okay that I swore,but that's what they said, and
I'm like ooh, ooh.
That stings Because, withoutgoing into the long-winded
details about why I wanted toteach basic training, this was a
career goal that I wanted to dobecause I experienced very
strong leadership during basicand I wanted to be that person
and I've realized that maybethat wasn't the case and it
helped me drastically change thetype of leader and the methods
that I want to use as a leadergoing forward.
So it's interesting that for me, it was.
(29:05):
Do you have any thoughts onthat at all?
Kevin Eikenberry (29:07):
Well, what I would say is that if we want to
be a highly effective leadereven from the start, we need to
be a learner, and we've beentalking about that certainly.
And one of the ways that weneed to learn is by getting
feedback, and we've been talkingabout that certainly.
And one of the ways that weneed to learn is by getting
feedback, and one of the thingsthat changes once you got
promoted is that people, likethey, don't want to give you
feedback because you're the boss.
So if we really want feedbackfrom our team, we have to ask.
(29:28):
We have to ask often, we haveto ask earnestly, we have to
shut up and listen.
We have to.
When they give it to us, weneed to thank them, even if it
was hard to hear, because theonly way we'll get it is if we
keep asking for it and if theysee us taking some action on it,
if they feel like why is heasking?
Because he's never going to doanything, they're not going to
(29:49):
say it.
Simon Kardynal (29:50):
Yeah, exactly.
Kevin Eikenberry (29:52):
Like what's the point?
None of us would right.
So I think it's a really,really important point.
Simon Kardynal (29:58):
Those, those guys, gave you a gift they, they
really did, they really did andit's.
It's interesting because thatthat actual, that same course,
the, the candidates, they rangedanywhere from between 18.
I had one member, he was 52when he joined, going into the
combat engineers.
I was pretty impressed withthat and so same idea I would
was going through askingquestions how's it going, how's
(30:20):
the training, what's good,what's bad?
And a lot of the 18, 19 yearolds like, oh, it's fine, sarge,
you know it's tough.
This gentleman who was 52, he'slike you know what.
I don't agree with this.
I don't agree with that.
This doesn't make any sense and, more of the point, I don't
know why I'm doing anything thatthat I'm doing and that sticks
with me a bit because I remember.
Okay, it's important for me togive the why to things.
(30:42):
Now, the precursor to that orthe, the thing I will say for
this particular example is thisis basic training.
The whole point of basictraining for non-commissioned
members is to do what you'retold to do, without question
you've got to be able to do that.
Kevin Eikenberry (30:58):
But the point of the why I mean.
Simon Kardynal (30:59):
But even if he knew that and that's exactly the
thing.
I sat him down and said hey,man, this is, this is why you're
here to do what you're told,without asking questions.
And I explained that andactually I pulled out the
training syllabus and I showedhim the write-up for that.
Your role is to learn how toperform in a team of five to 10
people without dot, dot, dot,without questions.
(31:21):
He's like oh okay, that makessense.
Kevin Eikenberry (31:25):
And now he's got it.
Simon Kardynal (31:26):
He's got it and it was important to understand
that.
And the lesson I took out ofthat was to remember that when
I'm talking to people is thatit's important to.
Even though it's so obvious tome, it might not necessarily be
the case for others.
And when we're talking aboutpeople going from that position
of being one of the team, one ofthe buds, to all of a sudden
(31:48):
being the boss, this is wherethose conversations are so
important.
The new leader might bethinking, well, obviously I'm
not going to go have beers withyou because I'm the boss.
But they might be thinking, oh,he thinks he's too cool for
school, he's not going to havedrinks with us.
Have the conversations.
Kevin Eikenberry (32:02):
So have the conversation and say, hey, I'm
not going to do that and and you, as the buds, might not love it
, but at least you'll understandit and we're not creating some
story that's not really thetruth.
We have to have thosetransition conversations about
how we're going to operate, whatwe're going to expect, what we
can talk about, what we can'ttalk about, what you can expect
of me as your boss.
(32:22):
No, I'm going to do my verybest not to in any way help
people think that I'm giving youfavoritism.
And if you get promoted andpeople know that you're close
friends with this person overthere, then hopefully you can
say this Don't do it if it's nothonest.
But you need to say to thewhole team too listen, I know
that.
You know that Simon and I havebeen buddies since high school
(32:44):
and I'm going to do my very bestto not do anything that looks
like favoritism, because I wantto help all of you succeed.
Yes, simon and I have beenfriends for a long time.
Yes, I want him to succeed, butno more than I want the rest of
you to succeed too long time.
Yes, I want him to succeed, butno more than I want the rest of
you to succeed too.
Now, that's all gotta be true.
But if it's true and you lay itout, in fact, what will
actually happen is, if youreally do, that is, you'll
(33:04):
probably overcompensate in thewrong way to Simon.
But that's okay too, really,because if you but if you guys
have never talked about it youand your bud it may, you may
have been in this role for sevenmonths and you're saying, kevin
and Simon, that's silly, it'sall working just fine.
(33:25):
Someday it won't, and when itcomes, the longer it's been
without having that conversation, the worst it will be when it
does happen.
And so, even if you've been inthis role five, six, seven,
eight, nine months and you'venever had these kinds of
conversations, you need to do itnow, and they may not have to
be a big deal, but you need tohave them and you can't wait for
them.
You need to have them.
Simon Kardynal (33:42):
Oh, 100%.
So I absolutely agree thoseconversations.
They are invaluable.
I'm going to shift gears just alittle tiny bit.
We've talked about a lot of thethings that new leaders, that
they can do to be successful.
What would you suggest thatthey should not do?
Like what are some of the majorfaux pas that you think are out
there?
Kevin Eikenberry (34:04):
Don't get above your raisin.
Avoid the power grab.
There's a new sheriff in town.
I'm in charge now.
I've been waiting for this day.
Everybody.
Here we go.
Don't do that.
Don't do that because you'rescared of the challenges of the
(34:24):
relationships.
Don't go too far the otherdirection.
Don't try to change everythingimmediately and don't try to let
everything go and not changeanything.
The right answer in all thesethings is somewhere in between.
Right and exactly where inbetween depends on the situation
.
Depends a little bit on yourstyle, but there's a lot more on
.
What does that team need rightnow?
(34:47):
And the number one thing Iwould not do right away and it
relates to a couple of things Ijust said is don't start
changing stuff the day youarrive.
The very best thing you can dowhen you first get the role is
to do what I call a listeningtour.
Talk to everybody your new boss, your new peer group, your
leader, your team and you go inasking questions what do you
(35:11):
think we should do?
What are the challenges fromyour perspective?
What do you think I need toknow?
What would you do if you wereme?
What do you think is goinggreat and we shouldn't change?
What else do I need to hear andyou don't say anything.
And even if you agree with stuffthey say, you say, man, I get
it, ask follow-up questions,because what you want them to do
is own that stuff is theirs.
And even if you agree, this isnot the time for you to be
(35:36):
showing that you got that.
This is not the day for you tolook like you're smart.
This is the day for you to bein total humility listening mode
, so that you because now, evenif those, even if three of the
things that you heard from thegroup, or exactly the things you
had in mind, you don't comeback into me and say I had
thought of these things and youguys confirmed them.
So here we go.
No, here's what I heard fromyou all.
Simon Kardynal (35:59):
Yeah.
Kevin Eikenberry (35:59):
I'm not saying to lie, but if the ideas are
theirs, there is far more powerthan if they're yours.
Well, 150,000%.
Simon Kardynal (36:09):
I couldn't agree with you any more about the
listening tour and coming in andnot changing the universe.
I do know in the military, quiteoften what'll happen is there's
generally a large turnover ofthe leadership inside units
every year due to promotions,postings, whatever.
It doesn't really matter.
And then you can always see thepeople that are taking the
(36:30):
positions they're very, veryobvious that are getting into
these roles and promotions sothat they can get to become the
next leader of everything,versus the people that are
getting promoted for otherreasons.
And I'm not judging one way orthe other, I'm just saying you
can always tell, because thepeople that come in with their
pants on fire and want to like,basically burn the building down
and make a new one in theirimage, versus the people that
(36:51):
will take that moment and have aconversation and listen and
take it in and my experience hasbeen the people that are
speaking less taking it in arethe ones that are going to take
the time and gain a deeper levelof trust, versus the trust that
has to come with the positionsomeone's in 100% Leadership
(37:12):
isn't about the job title.
Kevin Eikenberry (37:14):
Leadership are about the actions that you take
.
You're only leading if peopleare following.
Otherwise, you're just taking awalk.
Simon Kardynal (37:21):
Absolutely Colin Powell.
The second your people stoptalking to you, you're no longer
leading them, and thatresonates deeply with me.
If you're not havingconversations with folks and
they're not coming to you saying, hey, listen, this is a piece
of crap, then there's somethinggoing on.
There's always a quirk thatgets in the way of making things
interesting.
It's like the way I like to putthat.
For sure, yeah, sure.
(37:41):
I also think and I'd like toknow what your thoughts on this
when it comes to things not todo we talked a little bit about
not coming in and and justchanging everything right away I
think it's important toremember, to take the time to
remember, to not just assumethat everyone knows what you
want to do.
Uh, especially if you stayed inthat team and you've been
talking around those beers orthose drinks or or whatever for
(38:04):
years.
But well, when I'm in charge,I'm gonna going to do this, I'm
going to do that, I'm going todo that.
Kevin Eikenberry (38:09):
More often than not, we're highly unaware
of the corporate strategies andthe fact that those are pipe
dreams, if you will right, andthat doesn't mean that we can't
have a vision and that doesn'tmean that we can't set some
direction, but what it does meanis that we should do that with
the perspective of everyone elseand not just come in and take
off and go Pants on fire, as yousaid.
(38:30):
So it's finding the balance,the balance of action and
thought, the balance of beingwilling to roll up our sleeves
and do work and delegating.
There's a whole bunch ofbalances and in fact, in many
ways I could argue thatleadership is about balance and
often what happens when we getfirst promoted we've been on one
(38:54):
side of that and we swing wayover for all sorts of reasons,
and they're not all bad, butthey create unintended
consequences that we don't want.
Simon Kardynal (39:02):
Absolutely.
I've used this analogy a littlebit.
I like to imagine that, as theleader, it's our role to make
sure that we're actually movingthe pendulum and not moving the
clock, keeping the pendulumsteady.
It's our job to make surethings are going the way it's
meant to go.
We're not trying to shift theentire wall to do what we wanna
do.
And it's challenging, it'stough, it's supposed to be tough
, but that's the part of it.
(39:22):
That's excitement in leadership.
It's supposed to be tough sothat we can make things better
and make our team's lives betterand achieve corporate success
or whatever we want to do, itdoesn't matter.
Leadership is about makingthings better and that's what
I've always held to.
Do you have any thoughts onthat at all?
Kevin Eikenberry (39:38):
I think of leadership as being three things
.
Leadership is we call it thethree O's.
Leadership is about outcomes,others and ourselves.
If you asked me to give a shortdefinition of leadership, I
would say leadership is aboutreaching valuable outcomes with
and through others.
I love that.
But the third O is ourselves,and that's what we've been
talking about today.
Who we are, what we bring, ourapproach, our attitude, our
(40:02):
beliefs, our values, ourbehaviors make a difference.
There's not a single right wayto do it.
Hero worship won't get youthere by itself.
You've got to be who you are,but that's not an excuse either,
right?
Well, I've never been very goodat X.
That's maybe an excuse, butit's not a reason.
And so the fact is, who we arematters, but it's not about us.
(40:25):
It's about outcomes and othersmatters, but it's not about us.
It's about outcomes and others.
And yet we can't take ourselvesout of it, because we're the one
that is, in many cases, eitherdefining or further clarifying
those outputs, those directions,those goals, those objectives,
that mission, et cetera.
But we can't do it alone.
And we have promoted because wewere really good at doing the
(40:46):
thing.
Being the bookkeeper, being thewelder, being the mechanic,
being the forklift operator, itdoesn't matter what you were
good at.
You were good at doing thething, and now you have to get
better at a whole lot morethings than just the thing.
Simon Kardynal (41:05):
Yeah, and that's the big challenge with all of
that is is knowing that that'sjust the way it is.
You're going to have to getbetter at these things.
It's humbling.
I remember when I was doing myyear long French course full
time.
So I went from being an expertin my field my aircraft
maintenance trade to all of asudden, after 22 or so years in
the military, being unable toput together a five word
(41:27):
sentence.
That's a humbling experience.
Now, fortunately, in the entireclass we were all in the same
boat, so we're all humbledtogether but it sucks.
But after a while you getbetter with practice and you
figure it out and I found a waythat worked for me Now.
Kevin Eikenberry (41:41):
I know that we've done this interview in
English.
Simon Kardynal (41:43):
Listen, Kevin it would have been and I'd be gone
, and that'd be it.
Kevin, we have had a fantasticchat.
We talked about a lot ofdifferent things, and I'm just
curious if people want to reachout to you, if they want to hear
more or maybe take advantage ofthe different programs that you
offer, how might they do that?
Kevin Eikenberry (41:58):
Well, we've talked about the book from Bud
to Boss budtobossbookcom.
You can go there.
You can certainly go to ourwebsite, kevinikenberry
K-E-V-I-N-E-I-K-E-N-B-E-R-R-Y.
com, and you can learn moreabout all of our.
Basically, if there's a way tolearn a new skill, like being a
new or frontline leader, we'vegot it, whether it's e-learning
or virtual or face-to-face andall sorts of stuff there.
(42:19):
If you want to just beconnected with me, you can also
go to LinkedIn and connect withme there.
I'd be happy to love to knowwhy you reached out, and I post
new content and ideas thereevery day on LinkedIn and hope
that you would join us there aswell.
So if you can spell my name, asyou found out, simon, if you can
spell Kevin Eikenberry, you canfind us online.
(42:42):
There's also a great YouTubechannel all stuff about this Bud
DeBoss transition as well.
Simon Kardynal (42:47):
Great.
Well, thank you so much forthat.
Of course, I will have links toall the different ways people
can connect with you inside theshow notes, and this has been
fantastic.
Thank you so much for your time.
I'm looking forward to the nextchat that we're going to have
and talking about working awayfrom home and working away from
the office, rather.
Thanks so much.
Kevin Eikenberry (43:04):
Thanks for having me.
Simon Kardynal (43:05):
Well, that's a wrap from the front.
Thanks for having me.
If we're honest with ourselvesand we respect the person and
(43:27):
not the position, and we don'tget above our reasons, that we
will be able to go and make thetransition from bud to boss.
Thanks for tuning in andremember leadership without
passion limits the depth of yourvision.
Glen (43:40):
Never miss an episode by following us on all of your
favorite feeds.
While you're there, pleaseconsider leaving an episode
review and let us know whattopics you would like to hear
about.
Be sure to join us next weekwith your host, Simon Kardynal,
for another episode of TrenchLeadership: A Podcast From the
(44:01):
Front Produced by iglen studios.
Music provided by AshamaluevMusic.
I would like to begin this episode by
acknowledging that I am locatedin Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, and
I am privileged and honoured tolive and learn on the unceded,
unsurrendered territory of theAnishinaabe Algonquin Nation.
Glen (00:24):
Hello, you're listening to Trench Leadership
From the Front produced by iglenstudios, a show for emerging
leaders from all professions tohear from other leaders who have
led from the front, made themistakes, had the triumphs and
are still learning along the way.
And now here's your host, SimonKardynal.
Simon Kardynal (00:52):
Hello and welcome to Trench Leadership
Podcast From the Front, a showfor emerging leaders.
The transition from a teammember to being the leader is
never, ever easy.
One day we're hanging out,being buddies with everyone, and
the next day we're in charge,having to make decisions,
pushing to meet organizationaldeadlines, having to make the
(01:13):
tough calls, doing all of it,and none of it is easy.
So how can we make that leapfrom bud to boss, creating
strong and impactful teams?
In this episode, you'll hearfrom Kevin Eikenberry, Chief
Potential Officer of the KevinEikenberry Group and host of the
Remarkable Leadership Podcast.
Kevin will offer advice andinspiration for frontline
(01:34):
leaders to be their mostremarkable selves during the
transition from bud to boss.
But, as always, it's neverabout me, it's about the guests.
So I'm going to go ahead andwelcome in Kevin.
Hey Kevin, how are you doingtoday?
Kevin Eikenberry (01:48):
Simon, I'm fantastic Glad to be with you.
We finally got this puttogether.
Simon Kardynal (01:50):
I'm glad to be here.
We finally figured this out.
There was some confusion, alittle bit of internetery going
on, but it worked out well.
We're finally here and this isfantastic.
I'm super excited to have aconversation about this
particular topic because it'snear and dear to my heart and
it's something that comes up inso many of our episodes, but I'm
not going to tell people whatthe topic is just yet.
Before we do that, how aboutyou take a moment and just tell
(02:13):
us a little bit about yourself,your journey and, ultimately,
how we got to this point?
Kevin Eikenberry (02:18):
I was born on the day.
I grew up on a farm.
I grew up in a farm family andwe had a variety of farm and
agriculture related businesses.
The reason that matters here isthat I found myself working
with my father and learning andspending a lot of time with
adults long before I was anadult and had the chance to lead
(02:39):
long before I was an adult,long before I was an adult, and
so that plays a role in the factthat you know I now lead and
run a company.
That plays a role into myinitial thinking about what
leadership is, can and should be, and hopefully helps me make my
leadership thinking verypractical.
And so now, simon, after a fewother things along the way, for
(03:03):
nearly 30 years I've led acompany called the Kevin
Eikenberry Group, and for thelast 20 plus of that, it's not
just been Kevin but it hasactually been a group, and there
are currently 14 of us spreadout across the United States.
So I'm leading a team every day.
That is virtual.
One person comes to the officea couple days a week.
Fundamentally, for well over adecade, I've led a fully remote
(03:25):
or hybrid team, and we're out inthe world helping leaders make
a bigger positive difference inthe world, and the most
challenging part of that is thefirst time we do it.
Simon Kardynal (03:37):
Yeah, absolutely .
The good news is for thelisteners out there.
If you're thinking, wow, thisteam has been working virtually
for long, before COVID was evena word people had heard of, and
you're thinking, wow, I surehope they have a conversation
about that, not to worry, thatwill be coming down the road,
that's on its way.
But for today we're going totalk about that crazy transition
(03:58):
that happens when we go frombeing someone's friend, their
buddy in the team, their bud, tobeing that boss and the
challenges and everything thatcomes with being inside that
transition.
So, Kevin, I'm going to try andbe quiet and let you take it
away.
Tell us about that transitionand what your thoughts are.
Kevin Eikenberry (04:14):
Well, my colleague and friend and I got
here and wrote a book about thatcalled From Bud to Boss.
That came out in 2011.
We had been working withleaders in that situation, built
a workshop around that prior tothat.
So a lot of times people willwrite a book.
Simon, this was the other wayaround, at least the first round
of it.
So when we got ready to writethe book from Bud to Boss, we
(04:35):
knew from the training we'd donewhat the most important
questions people had were.
So we made that list and wesaid the book's not done until
we've answered all thosequestions.
So the book isn't writtenaround those.
I think it was about 20questions exactly, but we made
sure that the answers to all ofthose were in there because, as
I said, hinted at earlier, thattransition to being a leader for
(04:56):
the first time is the mostchallenging in our career, and
especially if we happen to nowbe leading people that we used
to work side by side.
Like last week we went for abeer and next week, simon, I'm
doing your performance review.
Like that's hard.
Simon Kardynal (05:13):
Right, that's hard oh, very, very much so, and
I know, like my experience withthat, were in the canadian
military, in the air force, andit was very difficult because,
especially in the canadian airforce, I was very difficult
because, especially in theCanadian Air Force I can't speak
to the American Air Force, butfor us the strength of the Air
Force is that it creates andfosters an environment whereby
(05:35):
everyone on the team, regardlessof their rank, feels as though
they have an opportunity to havea voice, to speak up, and that
culture predominantly exists tohelp with airworthiness and
ensure aircraft and personnelsafety.
So it's fantastic.
It's a very strong, robustprogram.
The challenge with that is italso helps people forget
sometimes that they're in themilitary and that there's a very
(05:55):
clearly defined chain ofcommand.
So what happens a lot of timesis someone will be on a
particular wing because inCanada we call our air bases
wings and one day you're indoing your thing, you're a
corporal on the team and you'reso corporals are workers,
strictly workers and then all ofa sudden you're promoted.
The next day you're the mastercorporal and you're in charge
and, like you just said, all ofa sudden, literally that next
(06:17):
day, you're writing annualevaluations on the person you're
out having beers with and a lotof times the expectation is
we're going to talk about yourevaluations during the next
round of beers.
It causes a lot of confusionand challenges inside that.
Do you have any thoughts onthat at all?
Kevin Eikenberry (06:33):
Oh.
So let's start here.
A lot of times, people say,well, man, it would just be so
much easier if I were leadingpeople that didn't know me, and
I would say, maybe, but let'sthink about this.
Are there pitfalls, stumblesand challenges that we can come
across, based on what Simon hasjust described?
Of course, think about it.
Would you rather have thechance to lead people that
(06:53):
already know you, that you havea relationship with, that you
have some trust in, that youhave some experience with, or
people with whom there is noneof that?
And I think that, yes, thereare challenges and such, but I'd
pick the first, every day, allday long, and twice on Sunday,
because, at the end of the day,what people want from a leader
(07:14):
is someone that they know, likeand trust, and you've got a leg
up on that.
Hopefully, if you've gottenpromoted and you know, hopefully
the team does know you but alsolikes you and trusts you.
Now we just have to refocus,change the boundaries a bit,
perhaps, and really get some newclarity about expectations and
(07:35):
roles.
And, as I said, regardless ofwhen you make this move into a
leadership role, there's a lotof new skills and stuff that you
need to build, but if you'redoing that with people who
literally are your friends.
There's this other set oftransition conversations that we
probably need to have, and wecan talk about those if you want
, but we have to get clear abouthow we want our relationships
(07:59):
to be now.
Leaders make a couple ofmistakes.
When they're in this case, theyeither decide to move away and
become aloof or to removethemselves because they're
afraid of the friendship.
Right, or they lean into thefriendship and say it'll all be
fine because we already knoweach other and all will be well,
(08:20):
and neither of those is theright answer.
You need a strong workingrelationship.
If you are friends, great.
If you become friends, I thinkthat's fine.
The challenge for us as leadersis to be friendly but not to try
to make a friend.
Right To be likable, but nottry to be liked.
And the mistake on the one endis I want to be liked.
(08:42):
I want them to still like me.
I want to still be a yes, I'mthe boss, but I'm still a member
of the team.
Like, be aware that you mightget invited if you were
barbecues now, and you have tobe okay with that, but you need
to have a conversation withpeople about, like, how are we
going to work together now?
What is okay for us to talkabout or not?
And I think, ultimately, whatare the thing you have to
(09:03):
recognize.
I'll just say, if it's you,simon, we're buddies, but now
I'm the boss, Simon, some of thestuff that we used to talk
about.
If we talk about it now, Ican't take off my boss hat, I
just can't.
It's part of my role.
Now.
Maybe there's some things thatyou will choose not to tell me
(09:23):
about what's going on on theteam, not because you don't
trust me, but because you knowthat I don't want you to put me
in a situation where I have totake action that you might have
assumed I wouldn't, just becausewe always used to talk about it
, but now I have a differentrole and I have to take that
seriously.
Simon Kardynal (09:41):
That's a big challenge for leaders to
remember that there is going tobe some changes there.
It's not just about a littlebit of a pay bump or the added
responsibility someone may ormay not have been looking for.
There are going to befundamental changes and to be
okay with that and I think formyself when I was going through
these things a lot of times itcame down to having an honest
conversation with myself.
Starting with that and beinghonest what am I looking for?
(10:02):
Am I okay with this?
Where?
Kevin Eikenberry (10:10):
I want to go Ask myself those questions, to
be honest with myself and gofrom that.
Do you have any thoughts Ahundred percent Like we've got
to be clear about so?
So whether we aspired to thisor whether it was offered to us
or whatever.
But you know, we've put on ourpants every morning right In the
past, or our clothes, I guess,I should say.
And tomorrow, after thepromotion, we're going to put on
our clothes again and we'regoing to think things haven't
changed because we're still us.
(10:30):
But a lot of things have changed.
We have to start working on andbuilding some new skills.
We're going to be seendifferently by the team, even if
they already know us, and wecan say it's not fair.
Maybe it is and maybe it isn't,but it is reality.
Because here's the thing If yougrew up and I will speak only
to Western culture, although I'mnot sure it's all that
different anywhere else If yougrew up in Western culture,
(10:52):
there's all sorts of stuff inthe back of our heads about the
boss right, we heard it aroundthe dinner table, we saw it on
the TV.
Heck, there was a movie calledHorrible Bosses, and then they
made a sequel, like they nevermade a movie called Awesome Boss
, but it was not hard for peopleto say, oh yeah, horrible Boss.
I had one of those ones and infact, depending on the kind of
(11:14):
work that you're doing, you mayhave gotten promoted from the
shop floor.
And now people are saying youwent to the dark side, you
changed teams, you aren't in theunion anymore.
I'm just saying all stuff thatI've heard a million times, and
so the reality is, yes, you'restill you the next day, but the
way people see you is now notjust you, but it's boss you.
(11:40):
And we have to recognize thatthe standard has changed.
The expectations have changed,the way people look at us has
changed.
We have to be self-aware toyour point enough to do what
we're going to need to do to besuccessful in the new role.
Simon Kardynal (11:57):
Absolutely.
A lot of times we're talking.
You had mentioned about Westernsociety and the way we view a
little bit.
You touched on the way we viewleaders and I think a big part
of why people tend to get caughtup how we're going to move
forward from going from thatbuddy to the boss ideology is
because the metrics that areused for valuing success are
(12:17):
moving up a chain of command ormoving up that corporate ladder
or whatever that is, and thatinevitably means more
responsibility, more leadership,responsibility, whatever that
might be.
But is that what a person wants?
Kevin Eikenberry (12:29):
We don't know yet exactly.
I mean, there are lots of folkswho, well, if I want to be
successful, I want to be seen assuccessful, if I want to make
mom proud, I need to be promoted, and success looks like making
more money, et cetera, likethere's a whole bunch of that
stuff and I'm not saying it'sall through, but it's all in
many of our heads.
It's certainly in thecollective society's head, and
(12:52):
so sometimes we put pressure onourselves to do that because
that's what we think we shoulddo, what we're expected to do,
what someone else wants us to do.
And more and more organizations, especially organizations of
any size, are building ways forpeople to be promoted and to be
differently rewarded, sort of ona technical track versus a
leadership track.
But if that's not true in yoursituation I think back to your
(13:14):
point about having theconversation with yourself is
really important, becausethere's a lot of responsibility
that comes with leading a teamas as well as opportunities in
terms of the impact that we canhave on others as well as the
business.
But it's a big set ofresponsibilities and if you're
feeling like you've started,you're feeling like I'm not sure
(13:35):
that's what I want, then Ithink you need to really think
about it and it's too importantto try to do it halfway and
chances are you got promotedbecause you didn't do it halfway
before.
Simon Kardynal (13:48):
Exactly.
Kevin Eikenberry (13:49):
And that will get in your way too.
It's like, well, you know, I'mkind of skating by, but you
didn't skate by before, mostlikely, or you would never
gotten the promotion.
So I think it's reallyimportant to spend that time
thinking about what is it that Ireally want here?
And if this is what I want,great, because it's all skills
that you can learn and you canwork on getting better at.
And listening to Simon'spodcast and maybe listening to
(14:11):
mine or reading our book fromBud to Boss may help.
There's a lot of things, a lotof resources, to help you on
that growth path.
Don't get discouraged if it'shard, but just make sure that
you really want to be committedto doing that.
Simon Kardynal (14:23):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I mean one of the things thatI've seen over my career,
especially in the Air Force.
Not so much when I was in theinfantry because I was a young
kid I was 19 to 24.
So I'm okay with admitting Iwas still pretty immature when I
got into the Air Force and Istarted getting close to
promotions for myself some ofthe teams I came across people
that were turning down theirpromotions and I couldn't wrap
(14:44):
my mind around them, like whywouldn't you want to do this?
And I'd ask them like what areyou thinking?
Like you can't do anything inthis.
And what I respected was the guyit happened in this case it was
a guy and he said to me he'slike well, I don't, I don't want
the responsibility, why would Ido that?
And and that really struck achord with me and that's kind of
(15:07):
the first time it sparked athought in my mind do I want to
do more work?
Do I want to that addedresponsibility?
In my case that happened to beyes.
But around that time I alsostarted looking at other leaders
that were getting promoted,especially in those first roles,
those emerging leaders, amaster corporal in the Air Force
and I saw.
(15:28):
I was able to watch people justbe absolutely miserable.
Some people were it was becausethey were figuring out how to
be, how to find their own flavorof leadership, but a lot of
people, I'll tell you they didnot want to be in that role and
they regretted it, but they were.
There was a lot of concern andI asked a couple of people and
it was like, well, I get paid abit more, so that helps my
(15:48):
family and I want people torespect me and I'm thinking well
, I'll respect the personregardless.
Kevin Eikenberry (15:55):
They already respected you, you wouldn't have
been promoted.
That's exactly.
You bring up that word respect.
I think what we really want isto be respected for who we are
and what we do, not the rolethat we have.
So I feel like if that's areason I want to be promoted,
it's probably not a very goodone, because what you're
actually hoping to gain you'renot going to gain for the
(16:18):
reasons you want to gain it, ifthat makes sense.
I've had the chance to helpliterally hundreds of leaders
that are in this transition orhave been through this
transition.
The issues are similar for allof us.
Being a leader is a complex setof things.
There's a lot of things that wehave to do to keep a plane
airborne or to make it airworthy, and I don't know them and you
(16:39):
do, but what I know is it's along list and it's a lot of
stuff.
I also know that it's kind of adiscrete list.
When we do these things, theplane's going to be good to go.
When we're leading, it's not asblack and white as that and
there's not only one single wayto do it.
There's a number of things thatprobably got us successful as an
individual contributor that wereally have to shift our
(17:01):
approach.
We really have to shift ourmindset.
We have to shift our approach.
We really have to shift ourmindset.
We have to shift our mindsetaround relationships, which
we've talked a little bit about,but we also have to shift our
mindset around the perspectivethat we need to have.
You have to start to become astudent of different things if
you want to be an effectiveleader than being the student
that you were, to become ahighly effective and valued
individual contributor.
So there's just things we haveto think about and look at and
(17:23):
learn differently than when wewere in an individual
contributor.
So there's just things we haveto think about and look at and
learn differently than when wewere in an individual
contributor role.
And if that's not what you wantto sign up for, then don't sign
up for it no-transcript.
Simon Kardynal (18:07):
This is going to take time.
Kevin Eikenberry (18:08):
Well, it's this one now Come on.
Simon Kardynal (18:09):
That's different .
That's totally different.
I'm teasing.
Go ahead.
And the trick with all of thisis to be patient.
Understand that it's going totake a while to figure out
ourselves.
Very few people are naturalleaders with quotations, and
even if they are perceived to bethat way, it's because they
spent a lot of time onintrospective thoughts and
considerations to figure outexactly where they wanted to go.
(18:30):
No one will convince me thatJFK, magically, was a superb
leader.
He took time to figure it outGreat speech writer but he took
time to figure out the type ofleader he wanted to be.
Kevin Eikenberry (18:42):
Here's the thing, people ask me all the
time, "evin are leaders made orare they born?
And my answer is yes.
I mean there are things aboutwho you are, as you're listening
or watching us right now, thatare the seeds of you being a
highly effective leader.
They're not the same thingsthat are the seeds, necessarily,
for me or for Simon or for acolleague of yours, and yet it's
(19:04):
not just genetics.
It's like you learn how to ridea bicycle right, and if you
learn how to ride a bicycle in aneighborhood, not everyone
learns to ride at the same speed, the same rate.
Some of us seem to be better atit faster.
Simon Kardynal (19:18):
Yeah.
Kevin Eikenberry (19:19):
Right.
And even if you didn't, even ifyou grew up on a farm like I
did, you sort of know thatthat's true.
Like, some people learn itfaster than others, and there's
reasons why, and some of themare genetic.
Like you have better hand-eyecoordination, you have better
balance.
Like you got there faster.
Question is so there are somepeople that had better bike
riding genes.
Okay, who's the best bike ridertoday?
(19:41):
The people that put their button a seat and ride.
Not the people that might'vebeen fastest to learn it, for
whom it came easiest to at thestart.
But those who keep learning,keep doing, keep trying, keep
practicing.
(20:01):
And, of course, riding abicycle is far simpler than is
leadership.
But I think the metaphor is apt.
If you're new and you'restruggling a little bit, it's
common for people to say man, Ijust wish I was as good at this
as Simon.
Simon's got this figured out.
I'll never be as good at thisas Simon.
(20:23):
Said no one ever but sure, Towhich I would say stop putting
the comparison in the wrongplace.
What we tend to do is we tendto compare ourselves to people
who are truly expert and thatseems like such a big gap right
(20:43):
and that's rarely serving us.
Can you learn from Simon?
Yes, keep listening to thepodcast.
Can you learn from the leaderthat is around you?
Yes, keep observing them andget mentoring from them.
But trying to become them orcomparing yourself to them is a
losing battle.
It's not the right thing to do.
Glen (21:04):
Oh, hello there.
It's glen, the voiceover artist, and if you're hearing me, that
means we're at the midpoint ofthis episode.
Do you have an idea for anepisode that you feel is vital
for emerging leaders?
Leave the idea in the commentsection and, if your topic is
chosen, you will have theopportunity to join us as a
co-host during the recordingsession.
(21:25):
So drop us a note and let'stalk.
This podcast is made possibleby listeners like you, and if
you feel we've earned it, pleasetell your friends and leave a
review to help us grow ourfollowing.
And now back to the show.
Simon Kardynal (21:45):
Oh, absolutely, you know, I think of you, know
we've talked about hero worshipand we most leaders, have
someone like you had just spokenabout, have someone we look to
and say, gee, I sure wish I'dlike to be that person.
Kevin Eikenberry (21:55):
Like Simon everybody.
Like Simon exactly, I'll go withthat.
Sure, you know there's like, hey, I really liked the way that
person talks about that, or theway Simon speaks this way or
whatever.
I want to be that person andoften when I've had those types
of conversations I say to peoplewell, figure out what works
best for you, keeping in mindthat the way I do it works is
it's a bit for me.
(22:15):
That doesn't mean that I my wayof doing things is perfect for
every, every individual, andit's about finding the flavor
that works for ourselves.
And and I'd also like tocaution people about hero
worship it it can often give usrose-colored glasses on what we
think about a person'sleadership perspective or
everything in general, and thatcan be dangerous when we're
(22:38):
trying to maybe emulate aspectsof what that leadership is going
to go towards.
So my advice might be to peopleto remember that everyone poops
, that at the end of the day, nomatter what, we are all people
and we're all going to go to thebathroom and not one of us is
any more special or importantthan the other.
We all poop and it's theuniversal equalizer.
(23:01):
I think this is an importantconversation because here's the
reality.
I've done this exercisehundreds of times.
You got a group of people inthe room.
Say think of a leader that youthink of as highly effective.
Don't tell me who.
Just think of a person, now,write down five reasons why
they're good.
Everyone makes their list.
Five reasons, 10 reasons, threereasons, whatever.
Everyone writes their list downand then I say tell me stuff on
(23:22):
your list.
And we put the list on a flipchart or on a virtual whiteboard
or whatever.
We make the list from thegroup's list.
The group is saying thesepeople are great leaders, here's
what they do.
And then we put the list up onthe wall and then I say well,
who's that?
And nobody is that, and evenyour person isn't all of that.
Because what we've now done iswe've said a great leader is all
(23:45):
of these things and we couldsay that's all true, but there's
no one that is at the top ofall of those things.
Simon Kardynal (23:51):
Yeah, exactly.
Kevin Eikenberry (23:53):
Wayne Gretzky might be the greatest hockey
player ever, but he wasn't thegreatest every part of being a
hockey player ever.
He can't have a fatal flaw.
If Gretzky couldn't have skated, the rest wouldn't have
mattered, and if you watch hiscareer, he got better at some
things as his career went on.
He's never going to be the bestdefenseman ever Doesn't mean
(24:15):
he's not a great hockey player.
You can be a great leaderwithout being great at every
leadership.
Behavior Can't have a fatalflaw.
If you're playing basketball,you got to be able to dribble.
If you're playing hockey, yougot to be able to skate.
If you're driving NASCAR, yougot to be able to turn left.
But like the point is that youcan't have a fatal flaw.
(24:36):
But then what you got to do ishave a really healthy
understanding of strengths andweaknesses, and I work on my
weaknesses and work on mystrengths.
You thought of a great leaderbased on their best strengths,
not because of absence ofweakness.
Simon Kardynal (24:53):
Yeah, I absolutely agree with that, and
it's what we're looking at andhow we want to interpret that
information is what we're basingour decisions and our judgment
on, and that's a big part ofthat, and recognizing that it's
challenging though, especiallywhen we're feeling the pressure
to get, when we're inside theseroles and all of a sudden we're
thrust into the positions.
Hopefully the organization hasset the individual up, helped
(25:15):
the member receive some trainingor some type of leadership
education.
More often than not, that's notthe case and that's challenging
.
So maybe someone should go reada book called From Bud to Boss
to help them get through theirthings.
I'll just throw that out there.
Kevin Eikenberry (25:29):
Well, that would be helpful.
From Bud to Boss is a greatplace to start.
But let me go back to somethingelse you just said, and that is
sometimes maybe theorganization hasn't set us up to
succeed by giving us trainingor whatever.
But there's other waysorganizations may not have set
us up to succeed, like notgiving us clear expectations of
what we're supposed to do.
And so when you said we putpressure on ourselves yes, often
we do, and we often putpressure on ourselves in ways
(25:50):
that isn't helpful, likesometimes we'll say to ourselves
well, as I'm the leader, so Imust have all the answers.
No, and in fact, have you everhad a boss that was a
know-it-all?
And if you have, you'reprobably saying, well, that's
not the one I want, so why wouldwe even put that expectation on
ourselves?
It's just, it's not healthy,it's not helpful and it's not
(26:10):
even the right answer ultimately.
But what I want to go back to isdon't lament if the
organization hasn't done thethings to set you up to succeed.
If you don't know clearlywhat's expected of you ask, keep
going back and say listen, Iwant to do the best I can
possibly do as a leader.
I need to know what the bar is.
Help me understand what are themost important things you need
me to be doing in my role tohelp us reach our goals.
(26:31):
If you don't know those things,you need to ask until you get
them, and I can tell you thatyou might not get them right
away, because sometimes peoplearen't used to being asked that
question, but they really wantyou to be successful.
Don't lament that they haven'tgiven you training.
Go get it, or listen to more ofthis podcast, or go read from
Bud DeBoss or whatever.
Don't just wait.
(26:52):
Act.
Simon Kardynal (26:54):
And that's a big part of that is that that
action to actually go and dosomething, quite often in the
absence of any real information.
We'll just fill those gaps,we'll fill the blind spots with
whatever we choose to go with.
Kevin Eikenberry (27:06):
More often than not it tends to go to the
far right extreme of some typeof worst case scenario yeah, and
the other thing we do when wedon't know what we're supposed
to do as a leader, we startdoing what we've seen other
people do, even if they weren'tgood.
Simon Kardynal (27:22):
I'm vigorously nodding my head right now.
Kevin Eikenberry (27:25):
Right.
So and then, if you ask themwell, did you like it when they
did that?
No, so don't do it.
Simon Kardynal (27:39):
Right, absolutely.
I remember one time when I wasa new sergeant and I was in
teaching basic training and I'mdoing all my different stuff and
we're training the candidatesand everything's going great, or
so I thought.
And then come to find outafterwards I thought I was doing
a fantastic job.
So one of the days I was, asI'm going through this course,
I'm talking to students, so howare things going?
And all the candidates are like, oh, it's going great, sarge
thanks, big thumbs up and smilesand whatnot.
So one time I was coming aroundand I just asked this question
(28:00):
and then I said, yeah, right on,great.
And I, I.
This was also my, my realizationfor me, where I realized that I
was doing drive by questions.
So I would, I would be cruisingby and I'd ask them a question
and I wouldn't even stop walkingRight, so I'm not.
The message I was sending themwas I'm going to ask the
question Cause I feel like Iknow I should, but not even take
the time to stop and listen tothe response.
(28:21):
So I got around the corner inthis drive-by question and I
realized I forgot my pen orsomething.
So I turned the corner, made myway back around and, as I'm
coming back, I can now hear themsaying why is he even asking us
this?
He doesn't give a shit about us.
(28:45):
I hope that's okay that I swore,but that's what they said, and
I'm like ooh, ooh.
That stings Because, withoutgoing into the long-winded
details about why I wanted toteach basic training, this was a
career goal that I wanted to dobecause I experienced very
strong leadership during basicand I wanted to be that person
and I've realized that maybethat wasn't the case and it
helped me drastically change thetype of leader and the methods
that I want to use as a leadergoing forward.
So it's interesting that for me, it was.
(29:05):
Do you have any thoughts onthat at all?
Kevin Eikenberry (29:07):
Well, what I would say is that if we want to
be a highly effective leadereven from the start, we need to
be a learner, and we've beentalking about that certainly.
And one of the ways that weneed to learn is by getting
feedback, and we've been talkingabout that certainly.
And one of the ways that weneed to learn is by getting
feedback, and one of the thingsthat changes once you got
promoted is that people, likethey, don't want to give you
feedback because you're the boss.
So if we really want feedbackfrom our team, we have to ask.
(29:28):
We have to ask often, we haveto ask earnestly, we have to
shut up and listen.
We have to.
When they give it to us, weneed to thank them, even if it
was hard to hear, because theonly way we'll get it is if we
keep asking for it and if theysee us taking some action on it,
if they feel like why is heasking?
Because he's never going to doanything, they're not going to
(29:49):
say it.
Simon Kardynal (29:50):
Yeah, exactly.
Kevin Eikenberry (29:52):
Like what's the point?
None of us would right.
So I think it's a really,really important point.
Simon Kardynal (29:58):
Those, those guys, gave you a gift they, they
really did, they really did andit's.
It's interesting because thatthat actual, that same course,
the, the candidates, they rangedanywhere from between 18.
I had one member, he was 52when he joined, going into the
combat engineers.
I was pretty impressed withthat and so same idea I would
was going through askingquestions how's it going, how's
(30:20):
the training, what's good,what's bad?
And a lot of the 18, 19 yearolds like, oh, it's fine, sarge,
you know it's tough.
This gentleman who was 52, he'slike you know what.
I don't agree with this.
I don't agree with that.
This doesn't make any sense and, more of the point, I don't
know why I'm doing anything thatthat I'm doing and that sticks
with me a bit because I remember.
Okay, it's important for me togive the why to things.
(30:42):
Now, the precursor to that orthe, the thing I will say for
this particular example is thisis basic training.
The whole point of basictraining for non-commissioned
members is to do what you'retold to do, without question
you've got to be able to do that.
Kevin Eikenberry (30:58):
But the point of the why I mean.
Simon Kardynal (30:59):
But even if he knew that and that's exactly the
thing.
I sat him down and said hey,man, this is, this is why you're
here to do what you're told,without asking questions.
And I explained that andactually I pulled out the
training syllabus and I showedhim the write-up for that.
Your role is to learn how toperform in a team of five to 10
people without dot, dot, dot,without questions.
(31:21):
He's like oh okay, that makessense.
Kevin Eikenberry (31:25):
And now he's got it.
Simon Kardynal (31:26):
He's got it and it was important to understand
that.
And the lesson I took out ofthat was to remember that when
I'm talking to people is thatit's important to.
Even though it's so obvious tome, it might not necessarily be
the case for others.
And when we're talking aboutpeople going from that position
of being one of the team, one ofthe buds, to all of a sudden
(31:48):
being the boss, this is wherethose conversations are so
important.
The new leader might bethinking, well, obviously I'm
not going to go have beers withyou because I'm the boss.
But they might be thinking, oh,he thinks he's too cool for
school, he's not going to havedrinks with us.
Have the conversations.
Kevin Eikenberry (32:02):
So have the conversation and say, hey, I'm
not going to do that and and you, as the buds, might not love it
, but at least you'll understandit and we're not creating some
story that's not really thetruth.
We have to have thosetransition conversations about
how we're going to operate, whatwe're going to expect, what we
can talk about, what we can'ttalk about, what you can expect
of me as your boss.
(32:22):
No, I'm going to do my verybest not to in any way help
people think that I'm giving youfavoritism.
And if you get promoted andpeople know that you're close
friends with this person overthere, then hopefully you can
say this Don't do it if it's nothonest.
But you need to say to thewhole team too listen, I know
that.
You know that Simon and I havebeen buddies since high school
(32:44):
and I'm going to do my very bestto not do anything that looks
like favoritism, because I wantto help all of you succeed.
Yes, simon and I have beenfriends for a long time.
Yes, I want him to succeed, butno more than I want the rest of
you to succeed too long time.
Yes, I want him to succeed, butno more than I want the rest of
you to succeed too.
Now, that's all gotta be true.
But if it's true and you lay itout, in fact, what will
actually happen is, if youreally do, that is, you'll
(33:04):
probably overcompensate in thewrong way to Simon.
But that's okay too, really,because if you but if you guys
have never talked about it youand your bud it may, you may
have been in this role for sevenmonths and you're saying, kevin
and Simon, that's silly, it'sall working just fine.
(33:25):
Someday it won't, and when itcomes, the longer it's been
without having that conversation, the worst it will be when it
does happen.
And so, even if you've been inthis role five, six, seven,
eight, nine months and you'venever had these kinds of
conversations, you need to do itnow, and they may not have to
be a big deal, but you need tohave them and you can't wait for
them.
You need to have them.
Simon Kardynal (33:42):
Oh, 100%.
So I absolutely agree thoseconversations.
They are invaluable.
I'm going to shift gears just alittle tiny bit.
We've talked about a lot of thethings that new leaders, that
they can do to be successful.
What would you suggest thatthey should not do?
Like what are some of the majorfaux pas that you think are out
there?
Kevin Eikenberry (34:04):
Don't get above your raisin.
Avoid the power grab.
There's a new sheriff in town.
I'm in charge now.
I've been waiting for this day.
Everybody.
Here we go.
Don't do that.
Don't do that because you'rescared of the challenges of the
(34:24):
relationships.
Don't go too far the otherdirection.
Don't try to change everythingimmediately and don't try to let
everything go and not changeanything.
The right answer in all thesethings is somewhere in between.
Right and exactly where inbetween depends on the situation
.
Depends a little bit on yourstyle, but there's a lot more on
.
What does that team need rightnow?
(34:47):
And the number one thing Iwould not do right away and it
relates to a couple of things Ijust said is don't start
changing stuff the day youarrive.
The very best thing you can dowhen you first get the role is
to do what I call a listeningtour.
Talk to everybody your new boss, your new peer group, your
leader, your team and you go inasking questions what do you
(35:11):
think we should do?
What are the challenges fromyour perspective?
What do you think I need toknow?
What would you do if you wereme?
What do you think is goinggreat and we shouldn't change?
What else do I need to hear andyou don't say anything.
And even if you agree with stuffthey say, you say, man, I get
it, ask follow-up questions,because what you want them to do
is own that stuff is theirs.
And even if you agree, this isnot the time for you to be
(35:36):
showing that you got that.
This is not the day for you tolook like you're smart.
This is the day for you to bein total humility listening mode
, so that you because now, evenif those, even if three of the
things that you heard from thegroup, or exactly the things you
had in mind, you don't comeback into me and say I had
thought of these things and youguys confirmed them.
So here we go.
No, here's what I heard fromyou all.
Simon Kardynal (35:59):
Yeah.
Kevin Eikenberry (35:59):
I'm not saying to lie, but if the ideas are
theirs, there is far more powerthan if they're yours.
Well, 150,000%.
Simon Kardynal (36:09):
I couldn't agree with you any more about the
listening tour and coming in andnot changing the universe.
I do know in the military, quiteoften what'll happen is there's
generally a large turnover ofthe leadership inside units
every year due to promotions,postings, whatever.
It doesn't really matter.
And then you can always see thepeople that are taking the
(36:30):
positions they're very, veryobvious that are getting into
these roles and promotions sothat they can get to become the
next leader of everything,versus the people that are
getting promoted for otherreasons.
And I'm not judging one way orthe other, I'm just saying you
can always tell, because thepeople that come in with their
pants on fire and want to like,basically burn the building down
and make a new one in theirimage, versus the people that
(36:51):
will take that moment and have aconversation and listen and
take it in and my experience hasbeen the people that are
speaking less taking it in arethe ones that are going to take
the time and gain a deeper levelof trust, versus the trust that
has to come with the positionsomeone's in 100% Leadership
(37:12):
isn't about the job title.
Kevin Eikenberry (37:14):
Leadership are about the actions that you take
.
You're only leading if peopleare following.
Otherwise, you're just taking awalk.
Simon Kardynal (37:21):
Absolutely Colin Powell.
The second your people stoptalking to you, you're no longer
leading them, and thatresonates deeply with me.
If you're not havingconversations with folks and
they're not coming to you saying, hey, listen, this is a piece
of crap, then there's somethinggoing on.
There's always a quirk thatgets in the way of making things
interesting.
It's like the way I like to putthat.
For sure, yeah, sure.
(37:41):
I also think and I'd like toknow what your thoughts on this
when it comes to things not todo we talked a little bit about
not coming in and and justchanging everything right away I
think it's important toremember, to take the time to
remember, to not just assumethat everyone knows what you
want to do.
Uh, especially if you stayed inthat team and you've been
talking around those beers orthose drinks or or whatever for
(38:04):
years.
But well, when I'm in charge,I'm gonna going to do this, I'm
going to do that, I'm going todo that.
Kevin Eikenberry (38:09):
More often than not, we're highly unaware
of the corporate strategies andthe fact that those are pipe
dreams, if you will right, andthat doesn't mean that we can't
have a vision and that doesn'tmean that we can't set some
direction, but what it does meanis that we should do that with
the perspective of everyone elseand not just come in and take
off and go Pants on fire, as yousaid.
(38:30):
So it's finding the balance,the balance of action and
thought, the balance of beingwilling to roll up our sleeves
and do work and delegating.
There's a whole bunch ofbalances and in fact, in many
ways I could argue thatleadership is about balance and
often what happens when we getfirst promoted we've been on one
(38:54):
side of that and we swing wayover for all sorts of reasons,
and they're not all bad, butthey create unintended
consequences that we don't want.
Simon Kardynal (39:02):
Absolutely.
I've used this analogy a littlebit.
I like to imagine that, as theleader, it's our role to make
sure that we're actually movingthe pendulum and not moving the
clock, keeping the pendulumsteady.
It's our job to make surethings are going the way it's
meant to go.
We're not trying to shift theentire wall to do what we wanna
do.
And it's challenging, it'stough, it's supposed to be tough
, but that's the part of it.
(39:22):
That's excitement in leadership.
It's supposed to be tough sothat we can make things better
and make our team's lives betterand achieve corporate success
or whatever we want to do, itdoesn't matter.
Leadership is about makingthings better and that's what
I've always held to.
Do you have any thoughts onthat at all?
Kevin Eikenberry (39:38):
I think of leadership as being three things
.
Leadership is we call it thethree O's.
Leadership is about outcomes,others and ourselves.
If you asked me to give a shortdefinition of leadership, I
would say leadership is aboutreaching valuable outcomes with
and through others.
I love that.
But the third O is ourselves,and that's what we've been
talking about today.
Who we are, what we bring, ourapproach, our attitude, our
(40:02):
beliefs, our values, ourbehaviors make a difference.
There's not a single right wayto do it.
Hero worship won't get youthere by itself.
You've got to be who you are,but that's not an excuse either,
right?
Well, I've never been very goodat X.
That's maybe an excuse, butit's not a reason.
And so the fact is, who we arematters, but it's not about us.
(40:25):
It's about outcomes and othersmatters, but it's not about us.
It's about outcomes and others.
And yet we can't take ourselvesout of it, because we're the one
that is, in many cases, eitherdefining or further clarifying
those outputs, those directions,those goals, those objectives,
that mission, et cetera.
But we can't do it alone.
And we have promoted because wewere really good at doing the
(40:46):
thing.
Being the bookkeeper, being thewelder, being the mechanic,
being the forklift operator, itdoesn't matter what you were
good at.
You were good at doing thething, and now you have to get
better at a whole lot morethings than just the thing.
Simon Kardynal (41:05):
Yeah, and that's the big challenge with all of
that is is knowing that that'sjust the way it is.
You're going to have to getbetter at these things.
It's humbling.
I remember when I was doing myyear long French course full
time.
So I went from being an expertin my field my aircraft
maintenance trade to all of asudden, after 22 or so years in
the military, being unable toput together a five word
(41:27):
sentence.
That's a humbling experience.
Now, fortunately, in the entireclass we were all in the same
boat, so we're all humbledtogether but it sucks.
But after a while you getbetter with practice and you
figure it out and I found a waythat worked for me Now.
Kevin Eikenberry (41:41):
I know that we've done this interview in
English.
Simon Kardynal (41:43):
Listen, Kevin it would have been and I'd be gone
, and that'd be it.
Kevin, we have had a fantasticchat.
We talked about a lot ofdifferent things, and I'm just
curious if people want to reachout to you, if they want to hear
more or maybe take advantage ofthe different programs that you
offer, how might they do that?
Kevin Eikenberry (41:58):
Well, we've talked about the book from Bud
to Boss budtobossbookcom.
You can go there.
You can certainly go to ourwebsite, kevinikenberry
K-E-V-I-N-E-I-K-E-N-B-E-R-R-Y.
com, and you can learn moreabout all of our.
Basically, if there's a way tolearn a new skill, like being a
new or frontline leader, we'vegot it, whether it's e-learning
or virtual or face-to-face andall sorts of stuff there.
(42:19):
If you want to just beconnected with me, you can also
go to LinkedIn and connect withme there.
I'd be happy to love to knowwhy you reached out, and I post
new content and ideas thereevery day on LinkedIn and hope
that you would join us there aswell.
So if you can spell my name, asyou found out, simon, if you can
spell Kevin Eikenberry, you canfind us online.
(42:42):
There's also a great YouTubechannel all stuff about this Bud
DeBoss transition as well.
Simon Kardynal (42:47):
Great.
Well, thank you so much forthat.
Of course, I will have links toall the different ways people
can connect with you inside theshow notes, and this has been
fantastic.
Thank you so much for your time.
I'm looking forward to the nextchat that we're going to have
and talking about working awayfrom home and working away from
the office, rather.
Thanks so much.
Kevin Eikenberry (43:04):
Thanks for having me.
Simon Kardynal (43:05):
Well, that's a wrap from the front.
Thanks for having me.
If we're honest with ourselvesand we respect the person and
(43:27):
not the position, and we don'tget above our reasons, that we
will be able to go and make thetransition from bud to boss.
Thanks for tuning in andremember leadership without
passion limits the depth of yourvision.
Glen (43:40):
Never miss an episode by following us on all of your
favorite feeds.
While you're there, pleaseconsider leaving an episode
review and let us know whattopics you would like to hear
about.
Be sure to join us next weekwith your host, Simon Kardynal,
for another episode of TrenchLeadership: A Podcast From the
(44:01):
Front Produced by iglen studios.
Music provided by AshamaluevMusic.
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