May 19, 2025 • 49 mins
Your team is constantly reading you—analyzing every movement, stance, and gesture you make as a leader. Even when you're silent, your body is having a conversation with everyone around you. What exactly is it saying?
Nine-time Emmy Award-winning journalist Jane Hanson pulls back the curtain on leadership's most under-appreciated tool: body language. With insights developed through decades of television broadcasting and leadership coaching, Hanson reveals the powerful truth that humans communicated through body language for millions of years before spoken words existed—and this primal language remains our most trusted form of communication today.
Throughout the conversation, Hanson shares practical wisdom for emerging leaders navigating the complex world of nonverbal communication. She explains why crossing your arms might undermine your credibility regardless of your intentions, how claiming your physical space earns respect in new environments, and why the pause may be your most powerful (and underutilized) leadership tool. When your words and body language don't align, people instinctively trust what they see over what they hear.
Perhaps most compelling is Hanson's perspective on vulnerability and compassion in leadership. Rather than viewing these qualities as weaknesses, she demonstrates how authentic physical presence—leading with an open posture and genuine engagement—signals both kindness and strength. "I don't think you can be compassionate and not be strong," Hanson notes, challenging traditional notions of authoritative leadership.
What is your body language revealing about your leadership style right now? Listen, reflect, and transform your silent communication to lead with greater authenticity and impact.
Jane’s Episode Links:
1. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/janehansonofficial/
2. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/janehansontv/
3. Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JaneHansonTV
4. Website: https://www.janehanson.com/
Jane’s Recommended Book/Movie/Podcast List:
Books: I love to read thrillers simply because they pique my interest. Books that help me escape are my favorite. Tom Clancy and Daniel Silva are two of
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
I would like to begin this episode by acknowledging
that I am located in Ottawa,Ontario, Canada, and I am
privileged and honoured to liveand learn on the unceded,
unsurrendered territory of theAnishinaabe Algonquin Nation.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, you're listening to Trench Leadership,
a podcast from the frontproduced by iGlenn Studios, a
show for emerging leaders fromall professions To hear from
other leaders who have led fromthe front, made the mistakes,
had the triumphs and are stilllearning along the way.
And now here's your host, simonCardinal.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Hello and welcome to another episode of French
Leadership, a podcast from thefront, a show for emerging
leaders.
Folks, as leaders, we arealways being examined, judged,
scanned for any sign of anythingthat we are thinking or feeling
, and often the judgments arenot coming from what we say.
They come from what's not beingsaid, from the way we are
(01:11):
standing, sitting holding ourarms, not holding our arms.
All of it, none of it.
It all matters.
So the question then becomeshow can we use our body language
in the most positive mannerspossible?
Well, in this episode you'llhear from Jane Hansen, a
nine-time Emmy, award-winningtelevision journalist and anchor
, who will talk about the powerof body language.
(01:32):
Jane will offer advice andinsight into helping emerging
leaders use their body languageto lead their teams.
But before we get into it, Iwant to say hi to Jane.
Jane, how's it going out there?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
It's going great, thank you, and it's fun to be
with the Canadian because I feela little partially Canadian
myself.
I grew up in rural Minnesotaand we would go up to
Saskatchewan all the time andWinnipeg on vacations and for
our little band trips and allthat kind of stuff and I also am
in Toronto and Montreal quite abit for work trips and all that
(02:06):
kind of stuff and I also am inToronto and Montreal quite a bit
for work.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
But I noticed that you say the word A-B-O-U-T, just
like I do.
So I speak Canadian, just forthe record.
You totally get that.
All I need to know is that youlove maple syrup and poutine,
and we are on our way.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
You get your honorary Canadian certificate Excellent.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So you're in, you totally get it, co it.
Coincidentally, I like to saythat I'm from Winnipeg, because
that's where all my family lives, so we maybe we were around
there at the same time, whoknows, that might be interesting
.
Maybe we're cousins, who knows?
Who knows, you know in theprairies, who knows?
It's a beautiful region, though, and not so much in the winter
it's, it's a tough, but it'sbeautiful in the summer.
(02:41):
That that is so true, oh,exactly.
Well, before we get into it, Iwould like to do the visual
introduction, and for myself,that means that I am wearing a
green t-shirt, I still have myblack rimmed glasses, my headset
is still black, my gray hair onthe side has not changed, the
background is still the image ofa stone wall with the Trench
(03:03):
Leadership logo hanging.
The logo itself is white andit's surrounded in a purple
highlight, and once again,that's kind of ironic, because
the actual logo is meant to bered.
But, as always, that's whathappens when you buy something
on amazon amazon and don't payattention to the order.
But it still looks fantastic.
I love the purple.
Oh, so do I.
(03:24):
I think I I really enjoyed.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
That's why I didn't even bother sending it back,
because it looks fantastic itdoes, even though I don't know
that I've ever seen a canadianmaple leaf in that color before
yeah, yeah, I get that with mycanadian guests a lot and fair
enough, but I I like it, so I'mgonna leave it.
Hey, it's your podcast, you cando what you want exactly,
exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
You totally understand it, jane.
Do you mind taking a moment andoffering your visual
introduction?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Well, I am sitting in front of a blurred screen, and
why do I have it blurred?
Because behind me you know what.
This is really weird, but Ihave a whole bunch of articles
that have all been written aboutme, and including some from
because I worked for NBC in NewYork for close to 30 years.
(04:09):
There are articles up here thatone of them's from 1985.
This one's from 1995.
This was in the New York Times,the one way up in the top.
I actually won an award as aMother of the Year, and that's
from back then.
My daughter was only five atthe time and I thought they were
being a bit premature with theaward Because we had a long ways
(04:33):
to go before I was going to bea mother of the year, I think.
So that's where I'm sitting,but I'm also in Florida right
now, and it's you know we'reheading towards summer, which
means I'm heading up northbecause it's going to get hot.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Oh darn tootin' it is .
That's, that's wild.
And so do you, do you spend?
As we were talking earlier?
You were saying that you were.
You spend quite a bit of timein New York.
So do you spend a lot of timein New York up during the summer
months, or do you kind of doyeah, I do.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I do, um, you know, having lived and worked in New
York, really from almost all ofmy adult life, because I moved
there when I was 23 years old,which to my father's chagrin,
because you know, we lived in atown of 2,500 people in rural
Minnesota named Canby.
That had no stoplights.
That's how small the town is,and so for.
(05:24):
And the town slogan was be allyou can be in can be.
So for him to move to the BigApple, the big city, was quite a
shocker and it took him a whileto accept it.
But then he started showing upall the time visiting me, my mom
and dad I'm going wait a minute, I thought you didn't like this
place.
And he goes.
Oh, the food's so good.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
It's one of those things.
Thought you didn't like thisplace and he goes oh, the food's
so good.
It's one of those things.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
You cannot love aspects of it, I guess.
That must be the case Exactly.
So that was a big move for metoo, because I was working at
the time at a television stationin Cedar Rapids, iowa, and so
to make that kind of a move wasa pretty big step, but it was
wonderful, and there's nothinglike being a journalist a
(06:12):
broadcast journalist in New YorkCity, because you just watch
history being made before youreyes Never knew what was going
to happen next.
Every single world leader youcould possibly imagine you talk
about leadership all the timeand emerging leaders.
These were leaders who hadalready emerged.
They were full scale and on topof their game, and I had an
opportunity to meet so many ofthose people and interview them
(06:33):
and spend time with them, and soit was just.
It was amazing.
It was always an amazingexperience, and I am truly
grateful for to have had thatopportunity, and they taught me
how to do what I do now, whichis teach people to about
leadership.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
I teach them about how to be a great presenters,
about how to do interviews,about how to hold their body and
what their body says, which iswhat we're talking about today
well, you know, I can alwaystell when I'm talking to someone
who does a lot of interviewseither presenting, presenting,
giving or taking thoseinterviews because you just
perfectly segued into the wholepoint of this episode, which is
(07:11):
to talk about body language.
So I'm just going to kick itoff and I'm just going to ask
you right up front why is bodylanguage so powerful?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
First of all, I want you to, I want you to think
about it.
Historically, we have beenwalking on earth for anywhere,
depending on what you believefor 2 million to 14 million
years.
We've only had a spokenlanguage for 160,000 years,
which means we communicatedthrough our body, and that was
(07:41):
the way we showed fear, weshowed love, we showed every
single human emotion.
That's what we did.
In fact, one could argue thatmuch of history we don't even
really know, because so much ofit was written before we had a
written, so much of it happenedbefore we had a written word or
before we had a spoken word.
(08:03):
And so, therefore, we, you know, how do we, how do we even know
?
It's true, but body language istotally innate and in today's
world, we don't recognize itspower as we should.
We need to think about everylittle gesture, every bit of eye
contact, every, every posturethat you have.
(08:26):
It's all sending signs, whetherit's your personal life, your
professional life, whetheryou're on television doing a
podcast because my voice is partof that, by the way, as is
yours.
We imagine what somebody lookslike and is based upon their
voice.
And you know, smiles go througha microphone.
(08:48):
You know that right.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Oh yeah, most definitely.
Yeah, I can.
I've learned to hear that, yeah, so that's that.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
That's why it's so important and your words have to
be in sync with what your bodyis saying, because if it's not,
then you're off balance and youthen become untrustworthy.
We trust each other through ourbody language and we equally
distrust each other through ourbody language.
(09:17):
It's really important thatpeople focus on this, that
people focus on this.
I challenge the listeners todayto turn on their television set
and put on a movie.
Turn the sound off.
You will know what the story isby just watching how the actors
are moving, how they'rerelating to each other, etc.
(09:41):
You know what's going on.
Do you remember?
There were silent movies for awhile I mean, obviously that was
long before our time but therewere silent movies before they
figured out how to put sound onthem.
It was silent and yet everybodygot the story.
So that's why body languagematters.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
No, absolutely, and you really hit.
I feel you really hit the nailon the head when you were
talking about how our words haveto match our bodies and what
we're saying and doing Before westarted recording.
I was talking about how, when Iwas in the military, I just
happened to like to put my handson my hips or the other thing.
I just happened to be one ofthose people who likes to cross
their arms, before I reallystarted paying attention to that
(10:26):
.
When I started getting intopositions of leadership formal
leadership authority I'mstanding there with my arms
crossed.
In my mind I'm just thinkingI'm comfortable.
But what I didn't realize wasthat my team members were a lot
of people were taking that in aswell.
He's closed off.
He's not really listening to myopinion or what I have to say
in the matter.
Regardless of what I saidafterwards, a decision had been
(10:46):
made.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
That's absolutely correct.
The crossing of the arms meansyou're either being intimidating
, it means, as you shut down,you've put up a barrier of some
sort.
Unfortunately, especially forwomen, it can also just plain
mean you're cold.
It Unfortunately, especiallyfor women, it can also just
(11:09):
plain mean you're cold.
But in its purest form,crossing your arms means you're
not interested and that,whatever somebody's going to say
yeah, whatever somebody's goingto say, you don't care.
To your point, you've made upyour mind, and gestures are
really interesting because youcan.
There are so many differentgestures one can make, but what
(11:31):
I really preach is, of course,they have to match your words.
We also use them asillustrations to make what we're
saying be heard better, but Ialso believe that they're like a
second language.
Think about it.
I mean, think about how, whenmaybe you're like if you're
(11:53):
traveling to Europe, you don'tspeak the language and you're
asking for directions and all ofa sudden, people are pointing
and you're using some sort ofalmost sign language to get
around, what is that?
That's using our body languageand communicating.
(12:14):
So gestures become veryimportant.
There are gestures that areoffensive, there are gestures
that send really bad signals andthere are gestures that are
very loving and exclusive.
I mean inclusive.
So we want to be careful abouthow we use our hands.
We also want it to be natural,because in a conversation, all
of life is a conversation, nomatter what you're doing, no
(12:35):
matter if you're giving a speech, no matter if you're sitting in
your living room talking toyour best friend, all of life is
just a conversation.
And the more you can make it aconversation, the better it's
going to be.
We use our hands in aconversation, so we don't want
to not use them.
If you don't use your hands,guess what happens?
(12:56):
People go.
You know they're not usingtheir hands.
Simon isn't using his hands.
He's rigid.
They're not using their hands.
Simon isn't using his hands.
That he's rigid.
Oh, I don't know if I like thisguy.
He's not.
He's not willing to bevulnerable enough to use his
hands.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I know for myself.
I'm a spilly beer talker, sowhen I get all excited my hands
start flying all over the place.
You can usually tell when I'mdriving if someone has cut me
off or if I think someone hascut me off it's probably a
better way to put that.
My hands are all over the placeand you know I'm like I'm loud
and whatnot.
And people have just gotten usedto that.
So when I stop doing thosethings, there's also people are
(13:36):
going.
That is that's also not likeSimon.
That must mean he's upset, orwhatever the decision might be,
and it's it's about knowing.
In my experiences has been.
It's about knowing knowing youraudience for sure, but also
being aware of being in themoment.
Does that make any sense at all?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Or of course it does.
It means that you, you have torecognize yes, well, it's a
signal, you're sending a signaland the signal you're sending is
that something is different.
So it's up to me, as youraudience, to say, hmm, what just
happened?
Because his behavior iscompletely different, and I'm
(14:14):
only taking that from the factthat he stopped using his hands.
So he's irritated, he's upset.
(14:40):
Maybe some thought went intohis head that now you've got to
figure out how to reengage him,which is a huge in today's world
.
It's especially crucial, why?
Because we're overstimulatedhere in the United States.
Do you know what the averageattention span is?
What?
Speaker 1 (15:00):
I'm not sure.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Eight seconds.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Now that doesn't mean you've totally lost them, but
it means they're not giving youtheir full concentration.
So we have to then always keeppeople engaged.
How do we do that?
We do that by using our voice.
We do it by using our body andour words, but the voice and the
(15:27):
body are much more um are muchbetter instruments to re-engage
than our words and I wouldimagine and I'm just curious
here, hear up the whole thought.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I would imagine that, as a famous television
personality such as yourself,the question I have is how, in
the medium of television, wereyou able to know if you were
keeping someone's attention andkeeping them focused on what was
going on?
Because it seems to me, inknowing nothing about the
industry, it's a one-sidedconversation.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Well, it is a one-sided conversation.
Well, it is a one-sidedconversation, but you also have
to learn how to re-engage, andif you watch television
newscasts, for example I was ananchor, I had shows of my own, I
was a host you learn a fewthings very quickly, one of
which is a television camera,and much like a camera that's on
(16:29):
a Zoom meeting, by the waypeople.
So I want you to pay attentionto this drains you of about 30%
of your energy, so it'simportant to amplify your energy
.
What is energy?
What is energy display?
Energy usually ends updisplaying itself in body
language and in the tone of yourvoice, so you have to
continually re-engage.
If you watch a newscast, youwill see that there's interplay
(16:54):
between people.
There's a lot of movement.
There's the way that we useyour eye contact, the way you
use your body.
That that's always trying tomake sure you're reengaging.
Of course, the way we knew if weengage them or not was the fact
that we got the ratings everysingle day.
The ratings were good, wefigured it worked.
(17:14):
If they were bad, it was uh-oh.
What did we do wrong?
Let's take and we got them.
They're minute by minute, soyou could literally know which
stories worked.
They're a minute by minute, soyou could literally know which
stories worked and you knowsometimes you, you know you'd be
worried about being off yourgame.
I always did a little trick,which was, I would imagine,
(17:34):
somebody else on the other sideof the camera that I was
speaking directly to.
I think it made it moreauthentic.
I also think it made it becomemore, so much more, of a
conversation.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Oh, and the conversations are massive.
I've held many episodes wherewe talk about the power of
conversations and power of wordsand active listening and all
the things that come in withthat, and it's not even just
actively listening or watchingwhat's what's being said.
Like you know, we're talkingabout body language.
It's about what people aresaying and doing, how they're
(18:07):
saying and doing it.
One of the running jokes inwith my daughter and I is that I
have Garfield eyes.
So when I'm really reallyconcentrating on something I'm,
I tend to squint my eyes and Ididn't even know I was doing
this and I just assume peopleknew that that meant I was
considering or thinking aboutwhat's going on.
But actually the message I wassending was and my daughter says
(18:28):
it looks like Garfield.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
So are you trying to?
Is that something that you'retrying to change?
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Oh, yeah.
So I heard about this years agomy daughter's 21 now and she
told me this back when she wasin her early teens and when,
especially, I learned about itwhen I was teaching basic
training in the military.
And I'm trying to explainsomething to a student and if
they were struggling, I rememberone time one of the students
was really struggling withsomething it was some type of a
(18:56):
drill maneuver, so a movement.
And I'm sitting there, I'mlooking at them, I'm trying to
understand I've explained theparticular thing a few different
ways that I know how to and I'mstanding there and I'm looking
at this person with my eyesdeeply furrowed because what I
was thinking was trying to findways to re-explain or re-attack
this issue to help the personsucceed.
(19:17):
And I was really really deep inthought and the member actually
said to me Sergeant Cardinal,I'm trying my hardest.
And I knew that I could tellthe person was trying and I'm
like, yeah, I get that, I'm justtrying to understand what's
going on and and how we canfigure this out.
And, like the person, oh, Ithought.
I thought that you were upsetwith me and that you didn't
(19:38):
think I was putting the effortin, and that's why I'm so
nervous.
I'm like, okay, whoa, so whenwe had a very quick conversation
, it's okay.
Well, no, I know you're puttingyour all, all your all into
this.
I we're just trying to, I'mtrying to help you be as
successful as possible.
I'm not kidding.
The next time we did the drillmaneuver, it was perfect because
I would we were able to releasethat member of that stress and
(19:58):
I also learned a lot andunderstanding.
Okay, well, this, this isaffecting people, even though I
don't understand that, and thatwas a jewel, a leadership jewel
for me that I've carried forward.
It's, it's, it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
It's interesting how, how, when you have those honest
discussions that it could, itteaches you so much and that way
and the other lesson I justlearned from you is you really
can learn something from yourchildren, even when they're just
a tween.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Oh yes, oh yes.
She's done that to me twice.
There was that time and she gotme on the ever-popular well,
how do you know?
So when she was growing up, wewould always make sure if she
decided she didn't want to eatsomething and like I don't like
that.
Well, have you tried it?
Well, no, then how do you know?
And so it came, we were gettingwe were moving and some friends
(20:50):
of ours were had made freshsushi.
I had never tried it because Idon't really like seafood too
much, and so my, my 12 year olddaughter tried I was had tried
it and she's like I love thisand it's like, dad, you should
try it.
It's like no, no, it's, it'snot for me as well.
Have you ever had it before?
No, well, how do you know?
Then, oh damn, you got me, so Itried it and now I love sushi,
(21:15):
but uh, there you go kids havethe nuggets too they have great
nuggets.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Oh, they really do um , and so I'm curious.
When we're talking about thebody language and the perception
of body language, that seems tome I love your thought matter,
but for me it seems like it's atwo-way conversation.
As long as both sides arecognizant of it and paying
attention to it, there's a wholeside conversation that's
happening you had mentionedearlier.
(21:43):
It's a.
It's like a second conversationthat happens.
Do you have any any furtherthoughts on that at all?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Oh, hello there.
It's Glenn, the voiceoverartist, and if you're hearing me
, that means we're at themidpoint of this episode.
Do you have an idea for anepisode that you feel is vital
for emerging leaders?
Leave the idea in the commentsection and, if your topic is
chosen, you will have theopportunity to join us as a
co-host during the recordingsession.
(22:11):
So drop us a note and let'stalk.
This podcast is made possibleby listeners like you, and if
you feel we've earned it, pleasetell your friends and leave a
review to help us grow ourfollowing.
And now back to the show.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
I'll give you a little example of how it can be
a whole second language.
Have you ever been at either anevent or a cocktail party or
someplace where there's a lot ofpeople that are kind of
networking and they're all?
They're all in a room andyou're all moving from.
You know, talking from personto person, and the person you're
talking to is lookingconsistently, looking over your
(22:54):
shoulder, and you begin torecognize that what they're
doing is they're looking to seewho else is there and not paying
any attention to you, and thesignal that sends is well, I'm
looking for somebody moreimportant or somebody that I'd
rather talk to, and it's a totalwrong move.
(23:18):
If you really want to go, lookfor somebody else to talk to.
What you say is it's been sogreat meeting you and thank you
for this conversation.
I'm supposed to meet somebody.
I'm going to go walk and see ifthey're here yet, or it's my
job tonight to go mingle, butthank you and maybe I'll see you
(23:40):
a little later.
Maybe I'll see you a littlelater Instead of what you're
doing, which has now made thatperson, that the person who's
observing you looking over theirshoulder.
It's made them trulyuncomfortable and they're going
well, I guess, and it'sdemeaning and it's like a put
down, it's very subtle.
So I there's, there's a lot, sothat's a conversation that's
(24:02):
occurring that you don't reallyyou know, you need to be aware
of.
That's a conversation there.
It's just the way your postureis, the way you might be sitting
.
If you lean forward, forexample, it means you're telling
.
It can mean you're tellingsomebody something very special,
or you've got a reallyimportant message to give.
If you're, and it's almost likethat's something you can use,
(24:28):
it's like you're telling them asecret in a certain way.
So leaning forward is somethingvery special.
The way you're standing, areyou slouched over?
I have an old poster that hastwo people standing side by side
.
One of them is standing up,straight and tall and the second
(24:48):
is slouched over and the postersays underneath one it says
good person and underneath theother it says evil person
because they're slouching.
It's the same way if you'reslouching in your chair when you
do not have a definitive goodposture, it sends the message
(25:09):
that maybe you're undisciplined,maybe you don't care that you
are not somebody of interest.
Think about people when theywalk into a room.
Somebody who walks into theroom, tall, upright, firm might
put their hand out to shakeyours.
You want to see that person.
If they walk in the room andthey're slouched over and they,
(25:32):
you know, maybe they'reshuffling a little bit with
their feet you're going.
Oh, do I have to talk to them?
Another little trick sit in astreet corner and watch people
passing by.
You're going to make up a storyabout every single one of those
people, none of which mightwhat might be true, but it's the
signals they're sending, by theway they're walking, by the
expression on their face, by theway they're moving their arms,
(25:52):
by the way they're dressed.
You're going to make you'regoing to.
You know, the pace at whichthey're moving.
You're going to make a decisionabout them has nothing to do
with who they are make adecision about them has nothing
to do with who they are?
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Oh, very much so.
And and when we're talkingabout leaders, specifically
brand new leaders, either totheir first leadership
experiences or brand new to ateam how we present ourselves is
how we're being judged, andit's very important that we
remain aware of that throughoutthe whole process of everything
that's going to be happening.
And do you have any thoughts ortips or tricks that people
might be able to use to enhancethat first experience?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Well, this is if somebody has been hired and now
let's say they're going intotheir first meeting, a lot of
people decide that they're goingto just listen and learn.
People decide that they'regoing to just listen and learn,
but I believe and sometimesthey'll take the last seat
(26:54):
available in a conference room.
Maybe they're sitting in a rowof chairs that's behind the
table or they'll do somethinglike that.
I say don't do that.
Claim your space.
You've earned this job, you'vebeen hired for it and now you
need to prove your value.
And in today's world, where wemove very quickly and we all
know that people are, they don'tstay in a job for a lifetime
(27:15):
and you don't have months andmonths and months to prove
yourself.
Take your seat at the table,claim your space, ask a question
, come up with an idea.
Don't be afraid to do it.
And when you do, don't do ittentatively.
You may be pre-qualified bysaying, or you might even want
(27:36):
to introduce yourself.
Why not take a moment and sayhello, I'm Jane.
I'm brand new to the team.
I'm so happy to meet you.
What's your role here?
And you can.
And, by the way, I'd get to themeeting early.
I get to Zoom meetings early,because I then have, because
(27:56):
virtually sometimes this is youknow we've got to.
We can't leave without talkingabout what happens in Zoom.
Well, you can still use yourbody language.
We can't leave without talkingabout what happens in Zoom.
Well, you can still use yourbody language.
I go on to Zoom meetings earlyso that I can talk to the people
who were there early and get alittle feel for them and
understand what they're talkingabout, understand what they're
saying, so that I now know how Ican get them to contribute to
(28:18):
the meeting.
And I just it's like I'm takinga weather report what's the
attitude, what's the feelingthere?
So I just suggest that if youreally want to become a good
leader, make yourself known andmake yourself known early on.
And I don't mean by being rashor by being loud or being
(28:45):
offensive, I just mean valuingyourself, being respectful, but
introducing yourself and makinga great first impression.
You know that old saying younever get the second chance to
make a first impression.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yeah, and that's absolutely true, and that's
actually a really great point tobring up, as, as I was thinking
about that, it reminded me ofsomething I heard, two things I
heard from a leader.
I had, many years ago, a verystrong leader, and one of them
was when, as a very practicalexample of things, when I was
about to have, or when he wasabout to have, any type of
(29:21):
formal conversation with someone, whatever it was about good,
bad, didn't matter he made surenot to be sitting behind a desk
and leaning back in his chair.
He's like OK, I'm going to makeeye contact with this person,
I'll slide my chair around tothe side to try and create an
environment.
That was not necessarilyperfectly equal, because in the
military we have a very clearlydefined hierarchy, for for good
(29:44):
reasons, uh, but understandingthat we're both people and we're
going to sit there and we'llwe'll have a conversation
together and and that was thatwas a great tidbit.
I remember that I still try anddo that to this day.
But then I also think of when Ifirst got up and I was first
began doing public speakingevents.
If you remember, earlier I spoketo how I have spilly beer hands
(30:04):
and when I would be doing that,when I get all animated because
I'm excited, because I'm in themoment, I'm all happy my hands
would be all over the place, andI quickly realized in the
beginning that that was takingaway from the message that I had
.
So then what I did was I justtried to stand there like a
statue to make sure I wasn'tmoving my hands.
I'd put them, them in my pocketor whatever Exactly, and the
(30:25):
sound.
You can see where I'm goingwith that.
That was even worse than notbeing myself.
So now what I've done for myselfis I found a way to find the
middle ground.
I usually have a pen in my handor something to hold and I can
fiddle with a little bit, and Ialso, in the beginning of every
single speech, I tell whoeverI'm talking to, so we're all on
(30:46):
the same page.
I'm a spilly beer talker, myhands are going to be around a
little bit, so, but here we areand I think that knowledge helps
people, and when that's outthere, that also emphasizes
stronger points.
Do you have any thoughts onthat?
Very long-winded, simon.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Well, I do.
I want you to.
I want you to to.
I would like you to learn howto to better use your spilly
beer hands, and I don't want youto have a pen in your hand,
because when you have a pen inyour hand, then that's
distracting, because you tend tostart using it in ways that you
don't.
That don't look professional,um, so I want to back this up to
(31:25):
how you started this, when youtalked about in the military how
somebody would walk around thedesk and and sit so they could
have a real conversation.
Uh, desks are barriers and asare podiums.
I do not believe that thereshould be conversations that
take place behind desks orbehind podiums.
(31:49):
Even when you're giving aspeech, I think that you should
be on the stage and you shouldbe talking to the people that
are there, and you talk to themby getting closer to them.
You never want to have abarrier, because it instantly
sends the wrong message.
So I believe that in youroffice you should have a place
where you can have peoplesitting, and I mean, you made
(32:16):
the point about the equaldistance, of how high the chairs
were and that sort of thing.
Have them equal, but thinkabout what that message is
sending.
Whether it's a good, whetheryou're giving a, it's a good
conversation or a badconversation you still want it
to be a respectful conversation.
Yeah then, um, when you get ona on a stage and you've got I
(32:40):
mean there's you can sometimesmake fun of yourself by by
talking the hands.
But I would prefer that youthink about practicing and
rehearsing ahead of time of howyou're going to use your hands.
I advise people to make notesIf they're giving a speech and
they know what messages they'vegot.
(33:01):
Find places in that messagewhere you know you're going to
gesture in a certain way.
That's going to be illustrativeof the point.
So you know.
Just a quick little example frommy television experience.
I would literally write intothe script on the teleprompter I
put a little smiley face if itwas a place where I should smile
(33:24):
.
Or I put a little.
I put a little smiley face ifit was a place where I should
smile.
Or I put a word like pausewhere I knew I should take a
pause because I was making animportant point that I wanted
people to be sure they got.
And, by the way, a pause is thetime it takes to tap your foot,
(33:45):
so it ain't forever.
So all of this stuff becomes.
It becomes for leaders.
If you can learn how to dothese things, they become second
nature with practice.
The other thing that happens andnow I'm going to talk about the
pause for just a minute morethe other thing that happens
when you pause, which is themost underutilized tool we have
(34:06):
in our arsenal is it showscourage and it shows bravery,
because most people don't likedead air.
Oldest reporter's tricks in theworld is you finish answering a
(34:26):
question and I don't sayanything.
You rush to fill that space andthat's where you get into
trouble, because you saysomething you didn't want to say
.
It's interesting.
A pause indicates confidence.
There's a lot of statesmanquality to it.
Watch great speakers.
(34:46):
They pause, they have the.
And, by the way, one other thingabout the pause is if you pause
, you won't be doing things likeum, uh, you know, like right,
those crutch words.
The crutch words go away if youhave a simple pause and if
you're well prepared.
So my suggestion is that ifyou're going to be making a
(35:12):
speech or a presentation,rehearse it.
We've all got iPhones thesedays or whatever kind of you
know.
Whatever system you're using,we can all record ourselves,
record yourself.
Look at it.
Say I loved how I said that Ihated how I said that those
gestures were out of sync.
Wow, that was really cool.
(35:32):
Nobody else ever has to see it,but it will help you learn how
to be better at this whole bodylanguage thing.
And the better you get, themore you focus on it and think
about it, better of animpression you're going to make
on people.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Absolutely.
I think of when I first startedthis whole podcast journey.
I have zero experience when itcame to any type of media
background or whatnot.
I was in the infantry and anaircraft maintenance technician
and then became an aircraftmaintenance administrator.
Sure, I was used to getting upin front of people for various
(36:13):
speeches and different thingslike that, but more often than
not it was based inside anenvironment that I had been in
my entire adult life and talkingin the side of this podcast
while I had completed the degreein leadership, still very new
to me and I'm talking to peopleI don't know more often than not
.
So that brings its own set ofstress and levels with it, and
(36:34):
the big thing I found in all ofthat was when I was going
through these speeches andtalking with people was to be in
the moment, and that'schallenging a lot of times to
not move on to the next step andthink about the next thing
that's coming up.
Do you have any thoughts onthat at all?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
I think there's something in that.
Yeah, it's called being present.
And again, getting back to thatattention span thing, people
know, when you're not present,your eyes drift, you might.
You might be kind of hesitant.
When you start to respond tosomething, people know it and
and we are overstimulated andand so that's a problem, that's
(37:13):
an issue.
How do you be present?
You got to focus, you got tomake the effort.
It is one of the mostrespectful things you can do to
another human being, and I knowI keep using that word respect.
I don't think we have enough ofit in this world and it is what
a true leader does.
A true leader doesn't screamand yell and belittle people and
(37:37):
make demands.
A true leader listens, responds.
They share the wealth, so tospeak, of information and
knowledge and they listen.
Listening again, we have twoears and one mouth for a reason.
(37:59):
Listening it becomes just ascritical as what you're saying
and listening.
When you're truly listening tosomebody, that means that you
are present.
That means that you are present.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
So listening is a core, core leadership quality.
Oh, very, very much so.
And the body language thatwe're sending out there if we're
not listening people can tell.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
They can just by how we're standing.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
We can tell by that for sure.
Even in the beginning when I wasdoing this podcast one of the
things I would often try and doin the beginning when I was
doing this podcast, one of thethings I would often try and do
in the beginning I would betalking to the guest saying, hey
, just so you know when I'mlooking away, I'm not, I'm not
ignoring what's happening, I'mwriting notes to try and make
sure I don't lose my train ofthought as we're going forward.
I've since kind of abandonedthat, because what I've realized
is, more often than not, theguests that I'm speaking with
(38:50):
they understand that this is youknow, we're doing something
specific and because of that Ineed to be able to write the
notes down.
But it was very important forme to have that type of a
conversation because I didn'twant to leave the assumption in
there.
So that might be some advicethat I would offer to leaders If
you're not sure, don't leavethe space for the gaps, don't
leave the room for assumptions.
(39:10):
Just talk to people, have thoseconversations and explain.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Hey, this is how I like to do things.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Absolutely it again, it fosters understanding and we
want our communications, ourconversations, to be one of
understanding.
Sometimes this is why I hatetext messages a lot, because you
can interpret something sodifferently from the way it's
meant.
So never have text messagesthat are not clear, because it
(39:41):
makes people come up withsomething wrong.
If it's an important message,deliver it in person or deliver
it over the telephone.
There's too much room formisinterpretation in person or
deliberate over the telephone,there's too much room for
misinterpretation.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Oh yeah, and I find, like for myself, the general
rule of thumb is, if I've had tosend more than maybe three
notes, if that's a conversation,let's.
Let's have a phone call, let'sget together, let's do whatever
and we're able to figure it outfrom there.
Because, like you said, ittakes out a lot of that, takes
out a lot of that ambiguity thatwill inherently be involved in
things, because we all readpeople and messages, words,
(40:18):
differently.
We we see that we place theemotion in different spots and
that's exactly the same in bodylanguage.
For myself, I I have a bit of abad back.
That just comes from being 48years old and having done lots
of stuff in the infantry and notpaid attention when I was
bending over for parts when Iwas in the air force.
But so quite often I need tostand or I'll sit, I'll be
(40:39):
sitting talking with someone andI'll realize I'm slouching and
no, I can't do that.
So I'll make my back ramrodstraight and someone might be
thinking, if they don't know thehistory about that, let me
think at all.
Simon's bored, simon's gettingfidgety.
Well, no, simon is worried thathe's not going to be able to
get up in the morning out of bed, so I have to do that more
(40:59):
often than not.
I'll just explain that, hey,you're going to see me get a
little fidgety, or I might, evenI'm going to stand for a while,
but that only means it doesn'tmean I'm bored or I'm I'm
anxious.
It just means I'm, this isgoing on and that having those
conversations directly tied toour body language is the way to
be able to understand each other.
Do you have any thoughts onthat at all?
Speaker 3 (41:19):
well.
No, I think what you're sayingis absolutely correct.
If, if you have something thatis going to make you be appear
to be less tolerant or appear tonot be not listening or appear
to be disengaged, tell them.
You know, for example, if theyou know, I've had days in my
(41:43):
life when I've had, like a footinjury, which means I have to
sit a certain way and and I'vejust simply said I've got a
really bad foot and this is whatit's going to, this is what
it's going to be, and I justwant to tell you that so that
you'll understand that I'm notsending you a bad message.
So so it's important, I think,to being honest, you're allowing
(42:07):
yourself to be vulnerable.
That a very important wordthese days vulnerability?
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Oh yes, it's.
It's one that gets used a lot,and I think it's interesting
from a military perspective thatyou know vulnerability equaled
weakness, and now we talk abouthow vulnerability equals
strength.
It's interesting how thatdynamic has completely changed.
So I'm curious, just before wewrap this up, what would you
(42:31):
think are the three largest bodylanguage mistakes that new
leaders could make?
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Bad eye contact, I think is number one, because
eyes are the gateway to the soul, so you want to look into
people's eyes.
The second, I think be would benot listening.
I think that would be.
I think that's a crucial misstactic.
(43:00):
Um, the third one, um, I thinkit's actually, I think it's that
word vulnerability.
I think we have to allowourselves to be human, and it's
interesting because I work witha lot of women leaders and male
leaders and there's hugedifferences between the two.
(43:22):
Women are considered to be morenurturing, and yet when a woman
is aggressive, she's consideredto be you know the B word that
rhymes with which and when a manis aggressive, he's considered
to be a strong leader.
Let's go follow him into thetrenches Powerful and yes, but
so?
So I think, vulnerability,which means allowing yourself to
(43:49):
show true humanity, and youknow I have a friend that wrote
a great book that's about beingkind.
It's called the Myth of theKind Girl.
I can't remember something likethat, but anyway, it's all
about how kindness is asuperpower and this woman is a
fabulous leader, and the pointof the book is that if you are
(44:15):
kind even in the bad moments, itis another sign of leadership,
because it shows once again thatyou're brave, that you're brave
enough to allow your compassionto lead.
And if you lead with compassion, which is all about body
language, it's the way, thefacial expressions that you have
(44:38):
, the way in which you hold yourbody, the openness and openness
is leading with your heart,your heart and your chest come
first.
Heart, your heart, your heartand your chest come first.
(44:59):
All of that allows people tounderstand that you are a
compassionate, kind, strong.
Because you can't.
I don't think you can becompassionate and not be strong.
I really don't.
I don't think you can be niceand not be strong.
I really don't.
I don't think you can be niceand not be strong because it's
(45:22):
and respectful.
If you're respectful, you'restrong.
All those words means a humanbeing that has thought about
themselves, has thought abouthow they are going to present to
others and has thought abouthow they're going to have real
conversations, that they'regoing to be present in that
moment, that they are going tobe honest, forthright, and that
(45:46):
they care.
I mean, there's another.
There's another saying I'mhearing a lot these days is I
don't care how much you knowuntil I know how much you care.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
And that's really what's happening in a lot of
businesses and I'm just findingit throughout, throughout,
leadership teams, everywhere oh,I experienced that type of I
haven't heard that exact phraseused, but I hear that often when
I'm speaking to leaders invarious industries about how the
shift has changed from peoplemore interested in the strictly
(46:19):
nine to five make a paycheck gohome.
They want their organizationsto be authentically involved in
social changes and how does thatbenefit themselves and the
organization and the planet andall of that together and there's
a lot to be said for that, andI think it's important for
people to remember that andpeople can tell if the
organization is trying to becompletely honest, bullshit, a
(46:40):
bullshitter.
You know they can tell thatwhen that's happening.
Jane, this has been absolutely,oh, absolutely, absolutely, jane
.
This has been a fantasticconversation.
We've talked a lot about bodylanguage and how emerging
leaders can learn how to usethat to enhance themselves and
their teams, to help nurture andgrow both themselves and their
(47:00):
team members.
I am curious, before we headout, do you have any ways that
people might be able to reachout to you if they want to carry
on this conversation with you?
Speaker 3 (47:09):
Well, of course I do.
I have a website.
It's called janehansencom,which is H-A-N-S-O-N, so I can
always be contacted that way,and I have an email.
That is also very simplebecause it's jane at
janehansencom, so I'm easy tofind, very easy.
(47:31):
Oh, and that's the way it needsto be.
There's this thing calledGoogle.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Have you heard of it?
I've heard about it.
I don't personally don't thinkit's going to take off.
I've heard it sits on some typeof network, but I don't know.
We'll see.
I I'm skeptical.
Speaker 3 (47:49):
This has been so funny how it's become a verb.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's become a verb yeah, exactly
, I'm going to go do someGoogling.
Yeah, exactly Right, this hasbeen absolutely fantastic.
Thank you so much for your timetoday and I hope that we're
able to carry on thisconversation again in another
topic down the road.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
Love to.
I got lots I can talk about,and so do you.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
Absolutely A boot.
I got lots I can talk about,and so do you.
Absolutely A boot, a boot, aboot, a boot.
Well, thanks so much, take care.
Thank you Simon.
All right, Okay, so with that,that was fantastic.
What'd you think?
I had fun.
I loved it.
Yeah, I thought that wentreally well.
There was a lot of strongpoints in there.
I agree.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Anyway, wonderful chatting with you, I really
enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
Well, thank you so much for your time today.
I'm very appreciative.
This has been a lot of fun, andI love talking to people that
know Canada.
Speaker 3 (48:44):
It's always a treat, there you go.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
All right.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
Well, that's a wrap from the front.
In this episode, we talkedabout body language.
We talked about how all of lifeis a conversation, how
everything we're saying anddoing we're not saying and not
doing is a conversation.
We have to remind ourselvesthat our words as leaders need
to be in sync with our bodies,that our body language truly is
(49:11):
a second language.
Thanks for tuning in andremember leadership without
passion limits the depth of yourvision.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Never miss an episode by following us on all of your
favorite feeds.
While you're there, pleaseconsider leaving an episode
review and let us know whattopics you would like to hear
about.
Be sure to join us next weekwith your host, Simon Cardinal,
for another episode of TrenchLeadership, a podcast from the
(49:41):
front Produced by iGland Studios.
Music provided by Ashimel ofMusic.
I would like to begin this episode by acknowledging
that I am located in Ottawa,Ontario, Canada, and I am
privileged and honoured to liveand learn on the unceded,
unsurrendered territory of theAnishinaabe Algonquin Nation.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, you're listening to Trench Leadership,
a podcast from the frontproduced by iGlenn Studios, a
show for emerging leaders fromall professions To hear from
other leaders who have led fromthe front, made the mistakes,
had the triumphs and are stilllearning along the way.
And now here's your host, simonCardinal.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Hello and welcome to another episode of French
Leadership, a podcast from thefront, a show for emerging
leaders.
Folks, as leaders, we arealways being examined, judged,
scanned for any sign of anythingthat we are thinking or feeling
, and often the judgments arenot coming from what we say.
They come from what's not beingsaid, from the way we are
(01:11):
standing, sitting holding ourarms, not holding our arms.
All of it, none of it.
It all matters.
So the question then becomeshow can we use our body language
in the most positive mannerspossible?
Well, in this episode you'llhear from Jane Hansen, a
nine-time Emmy, award-winningtelevision journalist and anchor
, who will talk about the powerof body language.
(01:32):
Jane will offer advice andinsight into helping emerging
leaders use their body languageto lead their teams.
But before we get into it, Iwant to say hi to Jane.
Jane, how's it going out there?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
It's going great, thank you, and it's fun to be
with the Canadian because I feela little partially Canadian
myself.
I grew up in rural Minnesotaand we would go up to
Saskatchewan all the time andWinnipeg on vacations and for
our little band trips and allthat kind of stuff and I also am
in Toronto and Montreal quite abit for work trips and all that
(02:06):
kind of stuff and I also am inToronto and Montreal quite a bit
for work.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
But I noticed that you say the word A-B-O-U-T, just
like I do.
So I speak Canadian, just forthe record.
You totally get that.
All I need to know is that youlove maple syrup and poutine,
and we are on our way.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
You get your honorary Canadian certificate Excellent.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So you're in, you totally get it, co it.
Coincidentally, I like to saythat I'm from Winnipeg, because
that's where all my family lives, so we maybe we were around
there at the same time, whoknows, that might be interesting
.
Maybe we're cousins, who knows?
Who knows, you know in theprairies, who knows?
It's a beautiful region, though, and not so much in the winter
it's, it's a tough, but it'sbeautiful in the summer.
(02:41):
That that is so true, oh,exactly.
Well, before we get into it, Iwould like to do the visual
introduction, and for myself,that means that I am wearing a
green t-shirt, I still have myblack rimmed glasses, my headset
is still black, my gray hair onthe side has not changed, the
background is still the image ofa stone wall with the Trench
(03:03):
Leadership logo hanging.
The logo itself is white andit's surrounded in a purple
highlight, and once again,that's kind of ironic, because
the actual logo is meant to bered.
But, as always, that's whathappens when you buy something
on amazon amazon and don't payattention to the order.
But it still looks fantastic.
I love the purple.
Oh, so do I.
(03:24):
I think I I really enjoyed.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
That's why I didn't even bother sending it back,
because it looks fantastic itdoes, even though I don't know
that I've ever seen a canadianmaple leaf in that color before
yeah, yeah, I get that with mycanadian guests a lot and fair
enough, but I I like it, so I'mgonna leave it.
Hey, it's your podcast, you cando what you want exactly,
exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
You totally understand it, jane.
Do you mind taking a moment andoffering your visual
introduction?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Well, I am sitting in front of a blurred screen, and
why do I have it blurred?
Because behind me you know what.
This is really weird, but Ihave a whole bunch of articles
that have all been written aboutme, and including some from
because I worked for NBC in NewYork for close to 30 years.
(04:09):
There are articles up here thatone of them's from 1985.
This one's from 1995.
This was in the New York Times,the one way up in the top.
I actually won an award as aMother of the Year, and that's
from back then.
My daughter was only five atthe time and I thought they were
being a bit premature with theaward Because we had a long ways
(04:33):
to go before I was going to bea mother of the year, I think.
So that's where I'm sitting,but I'm also in Florida right
now, and it's you know we'reheading towards summer, which
means I'm heading up northbecause it's going to get hot.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Oh darn tootin' it is .
That's, that's wild.
And so do you, do you spend?
As we were talking earlier?
You were saying that you were.
You spend quite a bit of timein New York.
So do you spend a lot of timein New York up during the summer
months, or do you kind of doyeah, I do.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I do, um, you know, having lived and worked in New
York, really from almost all ofmy adult life, because I moved
there when I was 23 years old,which to my father's chagrin,
because you know, we lived in atown of 2,500 people in rural
Minnesota named Canby.
That had no stoplights.
That's how small the town is,and so for.
(05:24):
And the town slogan was be allyou can be in can be.
So for him to move to the BigApple, the big city, was quite a
shocker and it took him a whileto accept it.
But then he started showing upall the time visiting me, my mom
and dad I'm going wait a minute, I thought you didn't like this
place.
And he goes.
Oh, the food's so good.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
It's one of those things.
Thought you didn't like thisplace and he goes oh, the food's
so good.
It's one of those things.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
You cannot love aspects of it, I guess.
That must be the case Exactly.
So that was a big move for metoo, because I was working at
the time at a television stationin Cedar Rapids, iowa, and so
to make that kind of a move wasa pretty big step, but it was
wonderful, and there's nothinglike being a journalist a
(06:12):
broadcast journalist in New YorkCity, because you just watch
history being made before youreyes Never knew what was going
to happen next.
Every single world leader youcould possibly imagine you talk
about leadership all the timeand emerging leaders.
These were leaders who hadalready emerged.
They were full scale and on topof their game, and I had an
opportunity to meet so many ofthose people and interview them
(06:33):
and spend time with them, and soit was just.
It was amazing.
It was always an amazingexperience, and I am truly
grateful for to have had thatopportunity, and they taught me
how to do what I do now, whichis teach people to about
leadership.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
I teach them about how to be a great presenters,
about how to do interviews,about how to hold their body and
what their body says, which iswhat we're talking about today
well, you know, I can alwaystell when I'm talking to someone
who does a lot of interviewseither presenting, presenting,
giving or taking thoseinterviews because you just
perfectly segued into the wholepoint of this episode, which is
(07:11):
to talk about body language.
So I'm just going to kick itoff and I'm just going to ask
you right up front why is bodylanguage so powerful?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
First of all, I want you to, I want you to think
about it.
Historically, we have beenwalking on earth for anywhere,
depending on what you believefor 2 million to 14 million
years.
We've only had a spokenlanguage for 160,000 years,
which means we communicatedthrough our body, and that was
(07:41):
the way we showed fear, weshowed love, we showed every
single human emotion.
That's what we did.
In fact, one could argue thatmuch of history we don't even
really know, because so much ofit was written before we had a
written, so much of it happenedbefore we had a written word or
before we had a spoken word.
(08:03):
And so, therefore, we, you know, how do we, how do we even know
?
It's true, but body language istotally innate and in today's
world, we don't recognize itspower as we should.
We need to think about everylittle gesture, every bit of eye
contact, every, every posturethat you have.
(08:26):
It's all sending signs, whetherit's your personal life, your
professional life, whetheryou're on television doing a
podcast because my voice is partof that, by the way, as is
yours.
We imagine what somebody lookslike and is based upon their
voice.
And you know, smiles go througha microphone.
(08:48):
You know that right.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Oh yeah, most definitely.
Yeah, I can.
I've learned to hear that, yeah, so that's that.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
That's why it's so important and your words have to
be in sync with what your bodyis saying, because if it's not,
then you're off balance and youthen become untrustworthy.
We trust each other through ourbody language and we equally
distrust each other through ourbody language.
(09:17):
It's really important thatpeople focus on this, that
people focus on this.
I challenge the listeners todayto turn on their television set
and put on a movie.
Turn the sound off.
You will know what the story isby just watching how the actors
are moving, how they'rerelating to each other, etc.
(09:41):
You know what's going on.
Do you remember?
There were silent movies for awhile I mean, obviously that was
long before our time but therewere silent movies before they
figured out how to put sound onthem.
It was silent and yet everybodygot the story.
So that's why body languagematters.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
No, absolutely, and you really hit.
I feel you really hit the nailon the head when you were
talking about how our words haveto match our bodies and what
we're saying and doing Before westarted recording.
I was talking about how, when Iwas in the military, I just
happened to like to put my handson my hips or the other thing.
I just happened to be one ofthose people who likes to cross
their arms, before I reallystarted paying attention to that
(10:26):
.
When I started getting intopositions of leadership formal
leadership authority I'mstanding there with my arms
crossed.
In my mind I'm just thinkingI'm comfortable.
But what I didn't realize wasthat my team members were a lot
of people were taking that in aswell.
He's closed off.
He's not really listening to myopinion or what I have to say
in the matter.
Regardless of what I saidafterwards, a decision had been
(10:46):
made.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
That's absolutely correct.
The crossing of the arms meansyou're either being intimidating
, it means, as you shut down,you've put up a barrier of some
sort.
Unfortunately, especially forwomen, it can also just plain
mean you're cold.
It Unfortunately, especiallyfor women, it can also just
(11:09):
plain mean you're cold.
But in its purest form,crossing your arms means you're
not interested and that,whatever somebody's going to say
yeah, whatever somebody's goingto say, you don't care.
To your point, you've made upyour mind, and gestures are
really interesting because youcan.
There are so many differentgestures one can make, but what
(11:31):
I really preach is, of course,they have to match your words.
We also use them asillustrations to make what we're
saying be heard better, but Ialso believe that they're like a
second language.
Think about it.
I mean, think about how, whenmaybe you're like if you're
(11:53):
traveling to Europe, you don'tspeak the language and you're
asking for directions and all ofa sudden, people are pointing
and you're using some sort ofalmost sign language to get
around, what is that?
That's using our body languageand communicating.
(12:14):
So gestures become veryimportant.
There are gestures that areoffensive, there are gestures
that send really bad signals andthere are gestures that are
very loving and exclusive.
I mean inclusive.
So we want to be careful abouthow we use our hands.
We also want it to be natural,because in a conversation, all
of life is a conversation, nomatter what you're doing, no
(12:35):
matter if you're giving a speech, no matter if you're sitting in
your living room talking toyour best friend, all of life is
just a conversation.
And the more you can make it aconversation, the better it's
going to be.
We use our hands in aconversation, so we don't want
to not use them.
If you don't use your hands,guess what happens?
(12:56):
People go.
You know they're not usingtheir hands.
Simon isn't using his hands.
He's rigid.
They're not using their hands.
Simon isn't using his hands.
That he's rigid.
Oh, I don't know if I like thisguy.
He's not.
He's not willing to bevulnerable enough to use his
hands.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I know for myself.
I'm a spilly beer talker, sowhen I get all excited my hands
start flying all over the place.
You can usually tell when I'mdriving if someone has cut me
off or if I think someone hascut me off it's probably a
better way to put that.
My hands are all over the placeand you know I'm like I'm loud
and whatnot.
And people have just gotten usedto that.
So when I stop doing thosethings, there's also people are
(13:36):
going.
That is that's also not likeSimon.
That must mean he's upset, orwhatever the decision might be,
and it's it's about knowing.
In my experiences has been.
It's about knowing knowing youraudience for sure, but also
being aware of being in themoment.
Does that make any sense at all?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Or of course it does.
It means that you, you have torecognize yes, well, it's a
signal, you're sending a signaland the signal you're sending is
that something is different.
So it's up to me, as youraudience, to say, hmm, what just
happened?
Because his behavior iscompletely different, and I'm
(14:14):
only taking that from the factthat he stopped using his hands.
So he's irritated, he's upset.
(14:40):
Maybe some thought went intohis head that now you've got to
figure out how to reengage him,which is a huge in today's world
.
It's especially crucial, why?
Because we're overstimulatedhere in the United States.
Do you know what the averageattention span is?
What?
Speaker 1 (15:00):
I'm not sure.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Eight seconds.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Now that doesn't mean you've totally lost them, but
it means they're not giving youtheir full concentration.
So we have to then always keeppeople engaged.
How do we do that?
We do that by using our voice.
We do it by using our body andour words, but the voice and the
(15:27):
body are much more um are muchbetter instruments to re-engage
than our words and I wouldimagine and I'm just curious
here, hear up the whole thought.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I would imagine that, as a famous television
personality such as yourself,the question I have is how, in
the medium of television, wereyou able to know if you were
keeping someone's attention andkeeping them focused on what was
going on?
Because it seems to me, inknowing nothing about the
industry, it's a one-sidedconversation.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Well, it is a one-sided conversation.
Well, it is a one-sidedconversation, but you also have
to learn how to re-engage, andif you watch television
newscasts, for example I was ananchor, I had shows of my own, I
was a host you learn a fewthings very quickly, one of
which is a television camera,and much like a camera that's on
(16:29):
a Zoom meeting, by the waypeople.
So I want you to pay attentionto this drains you of about 30%
of your energy, so it'simportant to amplify your energy
.
What is energy?
What is energy display?
Energy usually ends updisplaying itself in body
language and in the tone of yourvoice, so you have to
continually re-engage.
If you watch a newscast, youwill see that there's interplay
(16:54):
between people.
There's a lot of movement.
There's the way that we useyour eye contact, the way you
use your body.
That that's always trying tomake sure you're reengaging.
Of course, the way we knew if weengage them or not was the fact
that we got the ratings everysingle day.
The ratings were good, wefigured it worked.
(17:14):
If they were bad, it was uh-oh.
What did we do wrong?
Let's take and we got them.
They're minute by minute, soyou could literally know which
stories worked.
They're a minute by minute, soyou could literally know which
stories worked and you knowsometimes you, you know you'd be
worried about being off yourgame.
I always did a little trick,which was, I would imagine,
(17:34):
somebody else on the other sideof the camera that I was
speaking directly to.
I think it made it moreauthentic.
I also think it made it becomemore, so much more, of a
conversation.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Oh, and the conversations are massive.
I've held many episodes wherewe talk about the power of
conversations and power of wordsand active listening and all
the things that come in withthat, and it's not even just
actively listening or watchingwhat's what's being said.
Like you know, we're talkingabout body language.
It's about what people aresaying and doing, how they're
(18:07):
saying and doing it.
One of the running jokes inwith my daughter and I is that I
have Garfield eyes.
So when I'm really reallyconcentrating on something I'm,
I tend to squint my eyes and Ididn't even know I was doing
this and I just assume peopleknew that that meant I was
considering or thinking aboutwhat's going on.
But actually the message I wassending was and my daughter says
(18:28):
it looks like Garfield.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
So are you trying to?
Is that something that you'retrying to change?
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Oh, yeah.
So I heard about this years agomy daughter's 21 now and she
told me this back when she wasin her early teens and when,
especially, I learned about itwhen I was teaching basic
training in the military.
And I'm trying to explainsomething to a student and if
they were struggling, I rememberone time one of the students
was really struggling withsomething it was some type of a
(18:56):
drill maneuver, so a movement.
And I'm sitting there, I'mlooking at them, I'm trying to
understand I've explained theparticular thing a few different
ways that I know how to and I'mstanding there and I'm looking
at this person with my eyesdeeply furrowed because what I
was thinking was trying to findways to re-explain or re-attack
this issue to help the personsucceed.
(19:17):
And I was really really deep inthought and the member actually
said to me Sergeant Cardinal,I'm trying my hardest.
And I knew that I could tellthe person was trying and I'm
like, yeah, I get that, I'm justtrying to understand what's
going on and and how we canfigure this out.
And, like the person, oh, Ithought.
I thought that you were upsetwith me and that you didn't
(19:38):
think I was putting the effortin, and that's why I'm so
nervous.
I'm like, okay, whoa, so whenwe had a very quick conversation
, it's okay.
Well, no, I know you're puttingyour all, all your all into
this.
I we're just trying to, I'mtrying to help you be as
successful as possible.
I'm not kidding.
The next time we did the drillmaneuver, it was perfect because
I would we were able to releasethat member of that stress and
(19:58):
I also learned a lot andunderstanding.
Okay, well, this, this isaffecting people, even though I
don't understand that, and thatwas a jewel, a leadership jewel
for me that I've carried forward.
It's, it's, it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
It's interesting how, how, when you have those honest
discussions that it could, itteaches you so much and that way
and the other lesson I justlearned from you is you really
can learn something from yourchildren, even when they're just
a tween.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Oh yes, oh yes.
She's done that to me twice.
There was that time and she gotme on the ever-popular well,
how do you know?
So when she was growing up, wewould always make sure if she
decided she didn't want to eatsomething and like I don't like
that.
Well, have you tried it?
Well, no, then how do you know?
And so it came, we were gettingwe were moving and some friends
(20:50):
of ours were had made freshsushi.
I had never tried it because Idon't really like seafood too
much, and so my, my 12 year olddaughter tried I was had tried
it and she's like I love thisand it's like, dad, you should
try it.
It's like no, no, it's, it'snot for me as well.
Have you ever had it before?
No, well, how do you know?
Then, oh damn, you got me, so Itried it and now I love sushi,
(21:15):
but uh, there you go kids havethe nuggets too they have great
nuggets.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Oh, they really do um , and so I'm curious.
When we're talking about thebody language and the perception
of body language, that seems tome I love your thought matter,
but for me it seems like it's atwo-way conversation.
As long as both sides arecognizant of it and paying
attention to it, there's a wholeside conversation that's
happening you had mentionedearlier.
(21:43):
It's a.
It's like a second conversationthat happens.
Do you have any any furtherthoughts on that at all?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Oh, hello there.
It's Glenn, the voiceoverartist, and if you're hearing me
, that means we're at themidpoint of this episode.
Do you have an idea for anepisode that you feel is vital
for emerging leaders?
Leave the idea in the commentsection and, if your topic is
chosen, you will have theopportunity to join us as a
co-host during the recordingsession.
(22:11):
So drop us a note and let'stalk.
This podcast is made possibleby listeners like you, and if
you feel we've earned it, pleasetell your friends and leave a
review to help us grow ourfollowing.
And now back to the show.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
I'll give you a little example of how it can be
a whole second language.
Have you ever been at either anevent or a cocktail party or
someplace where there's a lot ofpeople that are kind of
networking and they're all?
They're all in a room andyou're all moving from.
You know, talking from personto person, and the person you're
talking to is lookingconsistently, looking over your
(22:54):
shoulder, and you begin torecognize that what they're
doing is they're looking to seewho else is there and not paying
any attention to you, and thesignal that sends is well, I'm
looking for somebody moreimportant or somebody that I'd
rather talk to, and it's a totalwrong move.
(23:18):
If you really want to go, lookfor somebody else to talk to.
What you say is it's been sogreat meeting you and thank you
for this conversation.
I'm supposed to meet somebody.
I'm going to go walk and see ifthey're here yet, or it's my
job tonight to go mingle, butthank you and maybe I'll see you
(23:40):
a little later.
Maybe I'll see you a littlelater Instead of what you're
doing, which has now made thatperson, that the person who's
observing you looking over theirshoulder.
It's made them trulyuncomfortable and they're going
well, I guess, and it'sdemeaning and it's like a put
down, it's very subtle.
So I there's, there's a lot, sothat's a conversation that's
(24:02):
occurring that you don't reallyyou know, you need to be aware
of.
That's a conversation there.
It's just the way your postureis, the way you might be sitting
.
If you lean forward, forexample, it means you're telling
.
It can mean you're tellingsomebody something very special,
or you've got a reallyimportant message to give.
If you're, and it's almost likethat's something you can use,
(24:28):
it's like you're telling them asecret in a certain way.
So leaning forward is somethingvery special.
The way you're standing, areyou slouched over?
I have an old poster that hastwo people standing side by side
.
One of them is standing up,straight and tall and the second
(24:48):
is slouched over and the postersays underneath one it says
good person and underneath theother it says evil person
because they're slouching.
It's the same way if you'reslouching in your chair when you
do not have a definitive goodposture, it sends the message
(25:09):
that maybe you're undisciplined,maybe you don't care that you
are not somebody of interest.
Think about people when theywalk into a room.
Somebody who walks into theroom, tall, upright, firm might
put their hand out to shakeyours.
You want to see that person.
If they walk in the room andthey're slouched over and they,
(25:32):
you know, maybe they'reshuffling a little bit with
their feet you're going.
Oh, do I have to talk to them?
Another little trick sit in astreet corner and watch people
passing by.
You're going to make up a storyabout every single one of those
people, none of which mightwhat might be true, but it's the
signals they're sending, by theway they're walking, by the
expression on their face, by theway they're moving their arms,
(25:52):
by the way they're dressed.
You're going to make you'regoing to.
You know, the pace at whichthey're moving.
You're going to make a decisionabout them has nothing to do
with who they are make adecision about them has nothing
to do with who they are?
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Oh, very much so.
And and when we're talkingabout leaders, specifically
brand new leaders, either totheir first leadership
experiences or brand new to ateam how we present ourselves is
how we're being judged, andit's very important that we
remain aware of that throughoutthe whole process of everything
that's going to be happening.
And do you have any thoughts ortips or tricks that people
might be able to use to enhancethat first experience?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Well, this is if somebody has been hired and now
let's say they're going intotheir first meeting, a lot of
people decide that they're goingto just listen and learn.
People decide that they'regoing to just listen and learn,
but I believe and sometimesthey'll take the last seat
(26:54):
available in a conference room.
Maybe they're sitting in a rowof chairs that's behind the
table or they'll do somethinglike that.
I say don't do that.
Claim your space.
You've earned this job, you'vebeen hired for it and now you
need to prove your value.
And in today's world, where wemove very quickly and we all
know that people are, they don'tstay in a job for a lifetime
(27:15):
and you don't have months andmonths and months to prove
yourself.
Take your seat at the table,claim your space, ask a question
, come up with an idea.
Don't be afraid to do it.
And when you do, don't do ittentatively.
You may be pre-qualified bysaying, or you might even want
(27:36):
to introduce yourself.
Why not take a moment and sayhello, I'm Jane.
I'm brand new to the team.
I'm so happy to meet you.
What's your role here?
And you can.
And, by the way, I'd get to themeeting early.
I get to Zoom meetings early,because I then have, because
(27:56):
virtually sometimes this is youknow we've got to.
We can't leave without talkingabout what happens in Zoom.
Well, you can still use yourbody language.
We can't leave without talkingabout what happens in Zoom.
Well, you can still use yourbody language.
I go on to Zoom meetings earlyso that I can talk to the people
who were there early and get alittle feel for them and
understand what they're talkingabout, understand what they're
saying, so that I now know how Ican get them to contribute to
(28:18):
the meeting.
And I just it's like I'm takinga weather report what's the
attitude, what's the feelingthere?
So I just suggest that if youreally want to become a good
leader, make yourself known andmake yourself known early on.
And I don't mean by being rashor by being loud or being
(28:45):
offensive, I just mean valuingyourself, being respectful, but
introducing yourself and makinga great first impression.
You know that old saying younever get the second chance to
make a first impression.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yeah, and that's absolutely true, and that's
actually a really great point tobring up, as, as I was thinking
about that, it reminded me ofsomething I heard, two things I
heard from a leader.
I had, many years ago, a verystrong leader, and one of them
was when, as a very practicalexample of things, when I was
about to have, or when he wasabout to have, any type of
(29:21):
formal conversation with someone, whatever it was about good,
bad, didn't matter he made surenot to be sitting behind a desk
and leaning back in his chair.
He's like OK, I'm going to makeeye contact with this person,
I'll slide my chair around tothe side to try and create an
environment.
That was not necessarilyperfectly equal, because in the
military we have a very clearlydefined hierarchy, for for good
(29:44):
reasons, uh, but understandingthat we're both people and we're
going to sit there and we'llwe'll have a conversation
together and and that was thatwas a great tidbit.
I remember that I still try anddo that to this day.
But then I also think of when Ifirst got up and I was first
began doing public speakingevents.
If you remember, earlier I spoketo how I have spilly beer hands
(30:04):
and when I would be doing that,when I get all animated because
I'm excited, because I'm in themoment, I'm all happy my hands
would be all over the place, andI quickly realized in the
beginning that that was takingaway from the message that I had
.
So then what I did was I justtried to stand there like a
statue to make sure I wasn'tmoving my hands.
I'd put them, them in my pocketor whatever Exactly, and the
(30:25):
sound.
You can see where I'm goingwith that.
That was even worse than notbeing myself.
So now what I've done for myselfis I found a way to find the
middle ground.
I usually have a pen in my handor something to hold and I can
fiddle with a little bit, and Ialso, in the beginning of every
single speech, I tell whoeverI'm talking to, so we're all on
(30:46):
the same page.
I'm a spilly beer talker, myhands are going to be around a
little bit, so, but here we areand I think that knowledge helps
people, and when that's outthere, that also emphasizes
stronger points.
Do you have any thoughts onthat?
Very long-winded, simon.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Well, I do.
I want you to.
I want you to to.
I would like you to learn howto to better use your spilly
beer hands, and I don't want youto have a pen in your hand,
because when you have a pen inyour hand, then that's
distracting, because you tend tostart using it in ways that you
don't.
That don't look professional,um, so I want to back this up to
(31:25):
how you started this, when youtalked about in the military how
somebody would walk around thedesk and and sit so they could
have a real conversation.
Uh, desks are barriers and asare podiums.
I do not believe that thereshould be conversations that
take place behind desks orbehind podiums.
(31:49):
Even when you're giving aspeech, I think that you should
be on the stage and you shouldbe talking to the people that
are there, and you talk to themby getting closer to them.
You never want to have abarrier, because it instantly
sends the wrong message.
So I believe that in youroffice you should have a place
where you can have peoplesitting, and I mean, you made
(32:16):
the point about the equaldistance, of how high the chairs
were and that sort of thing.
Have them equal, but thinkabout what that message is
sending.
Whether it's a good, whetheryou're giving a, it's a good
conversation or a badconversation you still want it
to be a respectful conversation.
Yeah then, um, when you get ona on a stage and you've got I
(32:40):
mean there's you can sometimesmake fun of yourself by by
talking the hands.
But I would prefer that youthink about practicing and
rehearsing ahead of time of howyou're going to use your hands.
I advise people to make notesIf they're giving a speech and
they know what messages they'vegot.
(33:01):
Find places in that messagewhere you know you're going to
gesture in a certain way.
That's going to be illustrativeof the point.
So you know.
Just a quick little example frommy television experience.
I would literally write intothe script on the teleprompter I
put a little smiley face if itwas a place where I should smile
(33:24):
.
Or I put a little.
I put a little smiley face ifit was a place where I should
smile.
Or I put a word like pausewhere I knew I should take a
pause because I was making animportant point that I wanted
people to be sure they got.
And, by the way, a pause is thetime it takes to tap your foot,
(33:45):
so it ain't forever.
So all of this stuff becomes.
It becomes for leaders.
If you can learn how to dothese things, they become second
nature with practice.
The other thing that happens andnow I'm going to talk about the
pause for just a minute morethe other thing that happens
when you pause, which is themost underutilized tool we have
(34:06):
in our arsenal is it showscourage and it shows bravery,
because most people don't likedead air.
Oldest reporter's tricks in theworld is you finish answering a
(34:26):
question and I don't sayanything.
You rush to fill that space andthat's where you get into
trouble, because you saysomething you didn't want to say
.
It's interesting.
A pause indicates confidence.
There's a lot of statesmanquality to it.
Watch great speakers.
(34:46):
They pause, they have the.
And, by the way, one other thingabout the pause is if you pause
, you won't be doing things likeum, uh, you know, like right,
those crutch words.
The crutch words go away if youhave a simple pause and if
you're well prepared.
So my suggestion is that ifyou're going to be making a
(35:12):
speech or a presentation,rehearse it.
We've all got iPhones thesedays or whatever kind of you
know.
Whatever system you're using,we can all record ourselves,
record yourself.
Look at it.
Say I loved how I said that Ihated how I said that those
gestures were out of sync.
Wow, that was really cool.
(35:32):
Nobody else ever has to see it,but it will help you learn how
to be better at this whole bodylanguage thing.
And the better you get, themore you focus on it and think
about it, better of animpression you're going to make
on people.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Absolutely.
I think of when I first startedthis whole podcast journey.
I have zero experience when itcame to any type of media
background or whatnot.
I was in the infantry and anaircraft maintenance technician
and then became an aircraftmaintenance administrator.
Sure, I was used to getting upin front of people for various
(36:13):
speeches and different thingslike that, but more often than
not it was based inside anenvironment that I had been in
my entire adult life and talkingin the side of this podcast
while I had completed the degreein leadership, still very new
to me and I'm talking to peopleI don't know more often than not
.
So that brings its own set ofstress and levels with it, and
(36:34):
the big thing I found in all ofthat was when I was going
through these speeches andtalking with people was to be in
the moment, and that'schallenging a lot of times to
not move on to the next step andthink about the next thing
that's coming up.
Do you have any thoughts onthat at all?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
I think there's something in that.
Yeah, it's called being present.
And again, getting back to thatattention span thing, people
know, when you're not present,your eyes drift, you might.
You might be kind of hesitant.
When you start to respond tosomething, people know it and
and we are overstimulated andand so that's a problem, that's
(37:13):
an issue.
How do you be present?
You got to focus, you got tomake the effort.
It is one of the mostrespectful things you can do to
another human being, and I knowI keep using that word respect.
I don't think we have enough ofit in this world and it is what
a true leader does.
A true leader doesn't screamand yell and belittle people and
(37:37):
make demands.
A true leader listens, responds.
They share the wealth, so tospeak, of information and
knowledge and they listen.
Listening again, we have twoears and one mouth for a reason.
(37:59):
Listening it becomes just ascritical as what you're saying
and listening.
When you're truly listening tosomebody, that means that you
are present.
That means that you are present.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
So listening is a core, core leadership quality.
Oh, very, very much so.
And the body language thatwe're sending out there if we're
not listening people can tell.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
They can just by how we're standing.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
We can tell by that for sure.
Even in the beginning when I wasdoing this podcast one of the
things I would often try and doin the beginning when I was
doing this podcast, one of thethings I would often try and do
in the beginning I would betalking to the guest saying, hey
, just so you know when I'mlooking away, I'm not, I'm not
ignoring what's happening, I'mwriting notes to try and make
sure I don't lose my train ofthought as we're going forward.
I've since kind of abandonedthat, because what I've realized
is, more often than not, theguests that I'm speaking with
(38:50):
they understand that this is youknow, we're doing something
specific and because of that Ineed to be able to write the
notes down.
But it was very important forme to have that type of a
conversation because I didn'twant to leave the assumption in
there.
So that might be some advicethat I would offer to leaders If
you're not sure, don't leavethe space for the gaps, don't
leave the room for assumptions.
(39:10):
Just talk to people, have thoseconversations and explain.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Hey, this is how I like to do things.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Absolutely it again, it fosters understanding and we
want our communications, ourconversations, to be one of
understanding.
Sometimes this is why I hatetext messages a lot, because you
can interpret something sodifferently from the way it's
meant.
So never have text messagesthat are not clear, because it
(39:41):
makes people come up withsomething wrong.
If it's an important message,deliver it in person or deliver
it over the telephone.
There's too much room formisinterpretation in person or
deliberate over the telephone,there's too much room for
misinterpretation.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Oh yeah, and I find, like for myself, the general
rule of thumb is, if I've had tosend more than maybe three
notes, if that's a conversation,let's.
Let's have a phone call, let'sget together, let's do whatever
and we're able to figure it outfrom there.
Because, like you said, ittakes out a lot of that, takes
out a lot of that ambiguity thatwill inherently be involved in
things, because we all readpeople and messages, words,
(40:18):
differently.
We we see that we place theemotion in different spots and
that's exactly the same in bodylanguage.
For myself, I I have a bit of abad back.
That just comes from being 48years old and having done lots
of stuff in the infantry and notpaid attention when I was
bending over for parts when Iwas in the air force.
But so quite often I need tostand or I'll sit, I'll be
(40:39):
sitting talking with someone andI'll realize I'm slouching and
no, I can't do that.
So I'll make my back ramrodstraight and someone might be
thinking, if they don't know thehistory about that, let me
think at all.
Simon's bored, simon's gettingfidgety.
Well, no, simon is worried thathe's not going to be able to
get up in the morning out of bed, so I have to do that more
(40:59):
often than not.
I'll just explain that, hey,you're going to see me get a
little fidgety, or I might, evenI'm going to stand for a while,
but that only means it doesn'tmean I'm bored or I'm I'm
anxious.
It just means I'm, this isgoing on and that having those
conversations directly tied toour body language is the way to
be able to understand each other.
Do you have any thoughts onthat at all?
Speaker 3 (41:19):
well.
No, I think what you're sayingis absolutely correct.
If, if you have something thatis going to make you be appear
to be less tolerant or appear tonot be not listening or appear
to be disengaged, tell them.
You know, for example, if theyou know, I've had days in my
(41:43):
life when I've had, like a footinjury, which means I have to
sit a certain way and and I'vejust simply said I've got a
really bad foot and this is whatit's going to, this is what
it's going to be, and I justwant to tell you that so that
you'll understand that I'm notsending you a bad message.
So so it's important, I think,to being honest, you're allowing
(42:07):
yourself to be vulnerable.
That a very important wordthese days vulnerability?
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Oh yes, it's.
It's one that gets used a lot,and I think it's interesting
from a military perspective thatyou know vulnerability equaled
weakness, and now we talk abouthow vulnerability equals
strength.
It's interesting how thatdynamic has completely changed.
So I'm curious, just before wewrap this up, what would you
(42:31):
think are the three largest bodylanguage mistakes that new
leaders could make?
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Bad eye contact, I think is number one, because
eyes are the gateway to the soul, so you want to look into
people's eyes.
The second, I think be would benot listening.
I think that would be.
I think that's a crucial misstactic.
(43:00):
Um, the third one, um, I thinkit's actually, I think it's that
word vulnerability.
I think we have to allowourselves to be human, and it's
interesting because I work witha lot of women leaders and male
leaders and there's hugedifferences between the two.
(43:22):
Women are considered to be morenurturing, and yet when a woman
is aggressive, she's consideredto be you know the B word that
rhymes with which and when a manis aggressive, he's considered
to be a strong leader.
Let's go follow him into thetrenches Powerful and yes, but
so?
So I think, vulnerability,which means allowing yourself to
(43:49):
show true humanity, and youknow I have a friend that wrote
a great book that's about beingkind.
It's called the Myth of theKind Girl.
I can't remember something likethat, but anyway, it's all
about how kindness is asuperpower and this woman is a
fabulous leader, and the pointof the book is that if you are
(44:15):
kind even in the bad moments, itis another sign of leadership,
because it shows once again thatyou're brave, that you're brave
enough to allow your compassionto lead.
And if you lead with compassion, which is all about body
language, it's the way, thefacial expressions that you have
(44:38):
, the way in which you hold yourbody, the openness and openness
is leading with your heart,your heart and your chest come
first.
Heart, your heart, your heartand your chest come first.
(44:59):
All of that allows people tounderstand that you are a
compassionate, kind, strong.
Because you can't.
I don't think you can becompassionate and not be strong.
I really don't.
I don't think you can be niceand not be strong.
I really don't.
I don't think you can be niceand not be strong because it's
(45:22):
and respectful.
If you're respectful, you'restrong.
All those words means a humanbeing that has thought about
themselves, has thought abouthow they are going to present to
others and has thought abouthow they're going to have real
conversations, that they'regoing to be present in that
moment, that they are going tobe honest, forthright, and that
(45:46):
they care.
I mean, there's another.
There's another saying I'mhearing a lot these days is I
don't care how much you knowuntil I know how much you care.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
And that's really what's happening in a lot of
businesses and I'm just findingit throughout, throughout,
leadership teams, everywhere oh,I experienced that type of I
haven't heard that exact phraseused, but I hear that often when
I'm speaking to leaders invarious industries about how the
shift has changed from peoplemore interested in the strictly
(46:19):
nine to five make a paycheck gohome.
They want their organizationsto be authentically involved in
social changes and how does thatbenefit themselves and the
organization and the planet andall of that together and there's
a lot to be said for that, andI think it's important for
people to remember that andpeople can tell if the
organization is trying to becompletely honest, bullshit, a
(46:40):
bullshitter.
You know they can tell thatwhen that's happening.
Jane, this has been absolutely,oh, absolutely, absolutely, jane
.
This has been a fantasticconversation.
We've talked a lot about bodylanguage and how emerging
leaders can learn how to usethat to enhance themselves and
their teams, to help nurture andgrow both themselves and their
(47:00):
team members.
I am curious, before we headout, do you have any ways that
people might be able to reachout to you if they want to carry
on this conversation with you?
Speaker 3 (47:09):
Well, of course I do.
I have a website.
It's called janehansencom,which is H-A-N-S-O-N, so I can
always be contacted that way,and I have an email.
That is also very simplebecause it's jane at
janehansencom, so I'm easy tofind, very easy.
(47:31):
Oh, and that's the way it needsto be.
There's this thing calledGoogle.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Have you heard of it?
I've heard about it.
I don't personally don't thinkit's going to take off.
I've heard it sits on some typeof network, but I don't know.
We'll see.
I I'm skeptical.
Speaker 3 (47:49):
This has been so funny how it's become a verb.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's become a verb yeah, exactly
, I'm going to go do someGoogling.
Yeah, exactly Right, this hasbeen absolutely fantastic.
Thank you so much for your timetoday and I hope that we're
able to carry on thisconversation again in another
topic down the road.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
Love to.
I got lots I can talk about,and so do you.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
Absolutely A boot.
I got lots I can talk about,and so do you.
Absolutely A boot, a boot, aboot, a boot.
Well, thanks so much, take care.
Thank you Simon.
All right, Okay, so with that,that was fantastic.
What'd you think?
I had fun.
I loved it.
Yeah, I thought that wentreally well.
There was a lot of strongpoints in there.
I agree.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Anyway, wonderful chatting with you, I really
enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
Well, thank you so much for your time today.
I'm very appreciative.
This has been a lot of fun, andI love talking to people that
know Canada.
Speaker 3 (48:44):
It's always a treat, there you go.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
All right.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
Well, that's a wrap from the front.
In this episode, we talkedabout body language.
We talked about how all of lifeis a conversation, how
everything we're saying anddoing we're not saying and not
doing is a conversation.
We have to remind ourselvesthat our words as leaders need
to be in sync with our bodies,that our body language truly is
(49:11):
a second language.
Thanks for tuning in andremember leadership without
passion limits the depth of yourvision.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Never miss an episode by following us on all of your
favorite feeds.
While you're there, pleaseconsider leaving an episode
review and let us know whattopics you would like to hear
about.
Be sure to join us next weekwith your host, Simon Cardinal,
for another episode of TrenchLeadership, a podcast from the
(49:41):
front Produced by iGland Studios.
Music provided by Ashimel ofMusic.
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