June 25, 2025 • 44 mins
Trench Leadership: A Podcast From the Front is humbled to have been named #5 in the Top 20 for Best Canadian Leadership-themed podcasts for 2025.
How do some leaders effortlessly build connection while others struggle to gain trust? The answer might be simpler than you think—they're master storytellers.
Shaun Bernstein, a journalist-turned-lawyer-turned-Chief Storyteller at The Write Stuff Agency, unpacks the transformative power of narrative in this compelling conversation. With disarming candor, he shares his own journey of career pivots, burnout, and reinvention, demonstrating in real-time how authentic storytelling creates the "know, like, trust" foundation essential for leadership.
Even in today's technology-saturated environment, our fundamental human need for connection remains unchanged—and stories are the most powerful tool we have to satisfy that need. What makes this conversation particularly valuable for emerging leaders is its practicality. Shaun offers guidance on which stories to share, when vulnerability is appropriate, and how storytelling can bridge divides between team members who might not naturally connect.
Whether you're leading a team for the first time or looking to deepen trust with your existing colleagues, this episode offers both inspiration and actionable advice for harnessing the hidden power of your own stories.
Listen in and discover how transforming your leadership is just one story away.
Trench Leadership: A Podcast From the Front is humbled to have been named #5 in the Top 20 for Best Canadian Leadership-themed podcasts for 2025.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
I would like to begin this episode by acknowledging
that I am located in Ottawa,Ontario, Canada, and I am
privileged and honoured to liveand learn on the unceded,
unsurrendered territory of theAnishinaabe Algonquin Nation.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, you're listening to Trench Leadership,
a podcast from the front, a showfor emerging leaders from all
professions to hear from otherleaders who have led from the
front, made the mistakes, hadthe triumphs and are still
learning along the way.
Produced by Jennifer Lee atit's a Legit Business, a podcast
(00:44):
launch and management company.
And now here's your host, simonCardinal.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of
Trench Leadership, a podcastfrom the front, and in this
episode I am super excited.
I have been trying to get backto podcasting for a while, as
everyone is aware that a fewmonths back I had to stop for
quite a while, but I'm back toit.
And this episode, this guest,this is the reason I get into
(01:16):
podcasting.
This is the reason I starteddoing this and the reason it is
so powerful for me, becausestories matter.
Everything we talk about,everything we do, everything we
say ultimately leads to a story,and most often, the feelings we
hold dear and close to ourheart they're attached to a
story that we have builtourselves and experience we've
had and turned into a story.
(01:38):
Stories are powerful.
They're how we communicate and,without realizing it, we relay
these stories to get our pointsacross.
And we do this because storiesengage us, they pull us in, they
make us part of theconversation.
In fact, stories are sopowerful that the statistics
show the human mind is 22% morelikely to retain the facts of a
(02:00):
story versus just some randomfacts.
And so, as emerging leaders,how can we use the power of
stories to our advantage?
That's easy.
We're going to talk to Sean.
Sean is a journalist turnedstory or, sorry, journalist
turned lawyer turned storytellerwho's going to offer his story
explaining how the story of hisjourney has brought him to power
(02:20):
storytelling as a career path.
How cool is that?
Sean will offer his thoughts onthe importance of stories and
also offer some emerging leadersabout some tips and information
about how they can create thebest stories possible.
I'm assuming we'll hear somestories while we're doing that,
but, as always, no one wants tohear from me.
They want to hear from theguests.
So let's bring in Sean andlet's chat.
(02:40):
Hey, sean, how's it going today?
Pretty great.
Simon.
How about yourself?
Fantastic.
I am so excited to be doingthis episode with you.
We have been talking about thisfor a couple of years and we
finally made it.
I can't thank you enough foryour patience.
That's a whole story in itselfabout how we finally got to this
point, but we'll get there.
Before we get into it, whydon't we just take a couple of
(03:01):
moments and tell us about you?
Let's hear from about Sean.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Yeah, no, my pleasure , and I'd love to tell you sort
of a bit of my story as we gothrough this, because really in
the end we're talking about thepower of storytelling, as you
did in the intro, and it's allabout that know, like and trust.
And you know, your listenersright now don't really know me,
but if I tell you my story alittle bit you're gonna get to
know me, you might get to likeme because I try to be a little
funny, a little charming, andthen if you know and like me,
(03:26):
you're gonna trust what I haveto say next.
So that's where it all comesfrom, my story, that whole multi
hyphenate nonsense that I kindof had to read out in the
beginning.
That kind of walks through thejourney.
My most my educational careerwas debated between journalism
and law and so I'm doing both.
I did go to journalism schoolactually started out in Ottawa,
(03:46):
where you are once upon a timeat Carleton, and their
journalism program Didn't finish, wound up doing a grad program
back in Toronto.
Loved every second of it.
I was producing at CBC for CBCRadio, just you know, living the
dream as I thought.
Only problem was job market wasnot exactly as into media at
(04:06):
the time as I was, so not awhole lot of opportunities to go
off of.
Really wasn't sure what to dowith my life, wound up selling
my soul and went to law school.
So I went to law school down inbeautiful Windsor where it's
always a couple degrees warmerthan Toronto.
It's very pretty.
Got the nicest waterfront inthe country, as far as I'm
(04:27):
concerned, okay maybe Vancouver.
fine, Vancouver is prettyamazing, it's true, but nicest
waterfront in Ontario I willgive to Windsor any day.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I'll give you that one that's fair.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
The canal is nice it's one of the nicer
waterfronts in Ontario but Idigress Spent a couple years
down there.
Waterfronts in Ontario, but Idigress.
I spent a couple years downthere, finished with a law
degree.
You don't specialize inCanadian law schools.
You learn a bit of everything,but I really fell in with labor
and employment and human rights.
I liked helping people.
(04:57):
I like being able to kind ofwork one-on-one and helping
someone through a problem Nextto you know family and criminal
law.
Our jobs are one of the mostimportant things in our lives
and the things that we holdreally dear.
So it's a huge part of youridentity and when that job is
lost or when you have to takesomeone's job away, it's a
traumatic move.
So I really got to help, youknow, through those scenarios,
especially with the human rightswork, and really help people
(05:18):
out of jams, which I love doing.
What I hated was the business oflaw.
The business of law isabsolutely brutal.
It really is a tough industry.
There's a reason why there issuch a mental health crisis in
the profession and I became partof that mental health crisis
and that was really why I left.
(05:38):
I actually wound up leavingtwice and the second time I said
I'm never going to do thisagain as long as I live.
And I have held true to thatpromise so fast forward.
I was, you know, doing somecontract legal review work just
to pay the bills, but I reallywasn't sure what was going to
come next.
And my wife, who's much smarterthan me, on my worst day,
(06:02):
elbowed me in the ribs and saidme on my worst day, elbowed me
in the ribs and said you're awriter, go and write Harder than
me.
On my best day, said to me youknow you are a writer, go and
write, go out there and do yourthing.
I had won I've always been awriter and I'd won a couple
National Writing Awards and Iknew that I could write.
I knew I could tell a story.
(06:22):
What I really didn't know is ifit was a business.
My impression, however misguided, was always that you know
writers don't like the livingWriters.
Are, you know these starvingartists on the left bank of the
Seine in Paris?
You know chain smoking and youknow chomping on baguettes and
sitting there with a notebooklike this lost, you know 50s
(06:44):
image.
That was my view of a writer.
And for all of those, there arethe tom clancy's and the james
patterson's and john grisham'sand you know whoever else, um,
is, you know, huge today?
Uh, george rr martin or beccayaros or whoever else who's
making crazy money.
(07:04):
It's all the same toolkit.
It's all the same 26 letters,it's the same vocabulary.
They're just doing somethingdifferent in a different way.
And I said maybe there'ssomething here.
So I, you know, with nobackground in marketing or
business, started a marketingbusiness and Hannah Shingle said
, hey, I'm available.
And the work started coming in.
(07:25):
And this is about six monthspre COVID.
So you know, interesting time.
To be self-employed as anentrepreneur actually was not
such a bad move at the time.
I mean, as hard as lockdownswere, it was the big kick in the
butt for businesses realizingthey had to get their online
presence into shape.
A lot of businesses that tookit for granted realized, oh hey,
(07:47):
wait a second, we need toactually get some fresh content
out because our stuff from the90s isn't going to cut it today.
And we you know kind of thingskind of went from there.
So I'm now in my sixth year ofthis business and, having the
time of my life, it's grown andevolved, and so have I.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
That's amazing.
I love that story.
I mean it's incredible howpeople are, you're, you're
driving down a certain path andyou're like this is going to be
it, this is what I'm going to do, this is my calling.
And then you realize, you knowwhat?
Maybe maybe there's anothercalling, and I think most people
they experienced that Like formyself as a young kid.
My dad was in the military and Iknew I just always knew I
(08:30):
wanted to be in the military.
I looked at him when he worehis uniform and I remember
thinking, wow, he's doingsomething important and he knows
that.
I remember thinking that as akid it was a little
disappointing when I was sayingthat to him one day, expecting
this amazing response of the gas.
I'm and it's the greatestthrill of my life to be able to
serve my country.
And he said well, I joinedbecause it was it was the mid
(08:51):
70s and I needed a job and itwas good.
It was a good pension.
At the end of it I'm like, well, that is, that is not what I
was expecting to hear, but goodto know.
And he's not wrong.
It doesn't make what he did anyless valid, but his path took
him down that way for thatreason.
And then I joined I stilljoined the military and I went
and I did all of that and I didit because I believed in the
higher calling, the purpose ofthat.
(09:13):
And then many, many years laterI realized, okay, this has
become my entire identity, howdo I not do that?
And I, I shifted my career pathand I shifted in a different
direction, to something that wasmore in line with who I was at
that time.
Because those evolutions happenand and I do believe that when
we're going through those typesof things, if we pay attention
to what's happening, that is, usshaping our own story and how
(09:36):
we're able to go ahead and dowhat we're going to do Does that
make any sense?
Does that resonate at all?
I think you've cut out of.
If you can still hear me, I canhear you, but, uh, you're, but
I've, I've, I've lost you okay,here one sec, all right okay,
(09:58):
that, that's fun, can you canhear me?
okay, though?
Oh, what is going on here?
One sec.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Oh, you got me there.
There we go.
Yep, Now you're.
Now you're back.
Your connection dropped.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Okay, that's strange, that figures, of course.
Yeah, sorry about that.
Uh what?
Uh what was I saying?
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Uh, talking about sort of shaping your own story.
And you know you talked aboutyour dad.
That all picked up, okay, andthen you were kind of going into
sheesh where were you?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Okay, well, I'll pick it up from what my dad from
shaping our stories.
We'll go from there, Sure, soso, yeah, so, so, as we're
shaping those stories, if we'rereally paying attention, that's,
that's the story of our lives,and we need to know where we're
going and where we've been, tomake sure we know where we're
going and make sure we're onthat path that we want to go at.
And so the question I have foryou does that resonate?
(10:57):
Do you think that makes sense?
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Yeah, I think very much.
So, you know, my whole view isthat I've hit several walls in
my life and when I hit the wall,I don't stop, I go left or I go
right and I make a decision andI pivot and I turn.
I've given keynotes about thisand it's really all just about
pivoting and learning how topivot and staying agile in
(11:21):
whatever you do, because youdon't know what's coming next.
I started a sales job.
I was working for a recruiter,doing sales for a tech recruiter
, and I started in 2008, the daythat Bear Stearns crashed, and
basically was there with him fora couple of months through
literally the start of the worsteconomic crisis that we had
seen in decades.
(11:42):
Terrible time to be doing highlevel sales, just awful.
And so, you know, I thoughtthat that might have been part
of where my career was.
And no, it's okay.
This is a good cue that I haveto do a pivot.
I was not headed to law school.
My LSATs were not cutting it.
I had, you know, written a testa couple times.
(12:03):
You have a max of how manytimes you can do it, but I've
written a few times over theyears.
It wasn't getting there.
I was preparing for a life ofHR.
I had a job working inrecruiting that I was, you know,
enjoying.
It was a bit of a crazy job.
They wanted me to stay, theydid not want me to leave for
school.
They were thrilled with me and,you know, those test scores
weren't great and I said youknow what, okay, like I'll, I
(12:26):
took the weekend to think itthrough I'll make a career out
of this.
That's wonderful.
And some things came up thatyou know made me change my mind
and I realized very quickly okay, let's, let's do this, let's
find a way to make this happen.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
And I did, and I'm pardon me, I did and I'm
grateful that I I made that moveBecause, again, just that pivot
and you know you hit the wallgo left, you go right, you keep
going, and it's that it's aboutthat pivoting that is so
important because, as like,especially as a new leader,
quite often you're going to hitthat wall.
Actually, it doesn't reallymatter at what leadership level
(13:00):
you're at.
You're gonna, you're gonna bedriving along, you'll be doing
whatever it is you're doing andyou're gonna get hit.
And, more often than not, whenyou hit that point, it's gonna
okay to be.
Okay, what do I do?
How do I fix this?
How do I keep going forward?
And we're going to rely on ourexperiences to be able to guide
us a little bit.
And it's those stories of thethings that we were thinking
(13:20):
about when we had an impactfulmoment, saying, oh, I remember
this time when this happened andthis is what we did.
That's a story.
Those things matter.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
And taking those and taking them forward really,
really matter.
What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, I think being able totalk about that pivot and just
staying agile instead ofrecognizing where opportunities
exist and that it might not bewhere you thought it was and it
might not take the shape thatyou thought it did, but if you
are able to think quickly and onyour feet, you're going to see
those windows of opportunity andyou'll be able to seize them.
There's such a beauty in thislife of saying yes.
You know that one of thefreedoms that we have is the
(13:57):
freedom to say yes and to beable to seize opportunities.
And we are so much morefortunate in every way in our
lives than we do.
And we're really at a loss whenwe don't so recognizing when
those come, taking chances,taking risks.
The worst can happen ifsomething doesn't work out and
you try something else.
We rephrase that the worst canhappen if something doesn't work
(14:19):
out and you try something else.
You move on, you try a new wayof doing something.
But there is so much out thereif you're really willing to kind
of open your eyes and see wherethe opportunity lies, and
you're absolutely willing tokind of open your eyes and see
where the opportunity lies andyou're absolutely right and take
the chance.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
That's okay.
And if you, if you land, if youstumble me, it it's fine, it's.
It might be a kind of a funstory for you down the road.
One of the the most pivotalstories I have for myself, when,
uh, that I can remember.
That was very, very impactfulfor me and it still, to this day
, has affected how I will reactin different situations or less
(14:57):
so now, because I like to thinkI'm a little more mature but it
really affected how I wouldinteract and how I would act as
a leader was I was very, verytiny, very scrawny little Simon
Cardinal in 1983, probably, andin my school.
So I was nine years old andwe're doing our thing and our
(15:17):
class was doing a I don't knowwhat you would call it a
fundraiser, and we were runningaround the gym and you know I'm
nine years old and the idea wasthat we were, with finger
quotations, running to DisneyWorld and in my brain all I
heard was we're going to DisneyWorld and I actually thought we
were going to Disney World.
So here I am in this class.
It's grade three.
(15:38):
We're all in the big circle inthe middle of the gym and the
gym teacher says, hey, listen,does anyone have any questions?
So I put my hand up and I'mlike, yeah, I have a question.
Am I going to need a sleepingbag?
And everyone started laughingand they're freaking out.
I was, and I still I did.
That day I remember not evenunderstanding why people were so
upset so or not, that they wereupset, why they were laughing.
(15:59):
And so I went home and I saidthis to my parents.
I'm like I don't get it.
We're going in my.
My parents were laughing at me.
I'm like, okay, well, this isnot good and that that
embarrassment that stuck with mefor a very, very long time and,
depending on how confident I amin a particular situation, the
feelings of that will come backand get to me.
(16:20):
So how do I deal with that?
I've learned that that is athing that I have to deal with
and I work my way through and Ipush through and I will take the
chances and I'll ask thequestions.
If even if I think it's anobvious question that everyone
else probably knows the answerI'll at least ask it and then I
know and I'm able to go goingforward.
It's not easy, but I do, andI'm able to force myself to do
(16:42):
that.
So I'm using the story of whenI was a kid to help me
understand when I'm strugglingas a leader.
Do you have any any thoughts onthat at all, any examples or
what are your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Oh for sure.
And I find, look, you know, yougot a couple of years on me but
I'm getting older myself andwith age I'm learning a lot from
experience.
I'm learning to forgive myselffor a lot of those things.
You know, I've got a prettysolid memory and I can remember,
you know, stupid things that Ihave said over the years or
(17:13):
times that I haveunintentionally hurt people or
embarrassed myself or what haveyou.
And I think as I get older Irealize, look, I'm a human being
just doing my best, I try to domore right than wrong and I
really have tried hard to domore good than bad, really have
tried hard to do more good thanbad.
And so, forgiving myself, youknow, those mistakes, those
transgressions, those you knowdumb remarks, etc.
(17:36):
Learning to kind of let it go,and it is very freeing, it gives
me a new sense of confidence inmyself.
I find, even in my business, youknow, in the last couple years
I just dealt with a difficultsituation not long ago and I was
actually very proud of myselfbecause I had a lot more
confidence in how I dealt withthings than I would have even
(17:56):
three, four years ago.
I would have been quaking in myboots to have a difficult
conversation with somebody orhave any awkwardness, and I kind
of said no and I was able tostand up for myself and it was a
very, very freeing moment ofhey, I am in the right, I know
I'm in the right and I know thatI'm making the right decision
for me and I have to go withthat.
(18:18):
So that comes with learning,that comes with age.
I don't know that there's a waythat you can learn it early on.
I think experience really is agreat teacher.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Oh yeah, that experience of getting through it
and realizing that you'll getthrough it.
Even if you stumble, you'll getup.
You'll get through it, it'sfine, it really is okay.
It's not the end of the world.
I just recently, our Lady Peacemade their way through Ottawa
recently and they're my favoriteband when I was a kid and still
my favorite band now, andthere's a song called Clumsy and
in it they talk about stumblingand scraping your knee because
(18:56):
the shoelace tripped you againand that that hit me as well,
because I'm like that's, that'swhat life is Like.
It's not an easy thing to go andlearn these things and not
everything needs to be this,this giant life altering
experience.
Uh, when I was learning to ridemotorcycles, uh, it was, it was
the fall, it was the end of thefirst riding season and I just
wanted to go around the blockreally quickly and I knew that I
(19:17):
was rushing.
So I, because of that, I hadthe wherewithal to put my, my
safety boots on, but I and my,my, my helmet, but I did not
have the proper jacket with thearmor on.
I didn't let the engine heat upand I was not paying attention.
I just was just very quicklygoing to go around the block, I
came into this one little weirdS turn on my street.
I was doing 10 kilometers anhour.
I shifted gears.
(19:37):
Next thing I know I'm lookingup at the sky and the lady who
was walking her dog was laughingand stunned at the same time
because the bike had fallen away.
Four stitches on my elbow andmy pride got hurt.
Hurt, but I learned from it.
I don't rush.
Sometimes you just need to makethe mistakes and and that's
okay.
There's nothing wrong with that.
(19:59):
And, as a leader, making thosemistakes is okay.
It sucks.
It sucks when people arelooking at you to not make
mistakes.
But, like we were talking aboutbefore we started recording,
people are people, are peopleand everyone is going to make
mistakes.
You can be the head of state,you can be me, you can be anyone
else.
It doesn't matter.
(20:19):
Those mistakes will happen.
It's what we do with them andhow we remember them as we go
forward.
Does that make sense?
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Oh, hello there.
It's Glenn, the voiceoverartist, and if you're hearing me
, that means we're at themidpoint of this episode.
Are you considering startingyour own podcast?
Are you confused or overwhelmedand don't know where to start?
Well, jennifer at it's a LegitBusiness is a podcast wizard who
(20:46):
can help you get started,provide advice, consultation and
help you along the way.
Trench Leadership has beenusing it's a Legit Business for
over a year, and Jennifer offerspersonalized service, catering
to the podcast's unique needsand desires, truly hearing
Simon's requests and beinginstrumental in realizing Trench
(21:06):
Leadership's vision for eachepisode.
If you want to get started,contact Jennifer at jennifer at
itsalegitbusinesscom and she'llhelp you realize your dreams.
Trench Leadership is alwaysstriving to improve our content
and provide valuable insightsfor leaders across all
professions, and to do this,your feedback is crucial.
(21:29):
So drop us a note at simonk attrenchleadershipca and let us
know what's working and what canbe improved.
And now back to the show.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
It makes great sense.
Look, you know, you act withthe best information you have
available and you really takethe time to be thoughtful and
weigh it out.
You make what you think is theright decision at the time.
And part of leadership isacknowledging you've made a bad
call and acknowledging when youknow what you've done is maybe
not the right decision foreverybody, or what the
consequences are, and having theself-confidence to know that,
(22:08):
okay, maybe I made a wrongdecision.
That does not mean I'm a badperson or a bad leader.
Acknowledging it, acknowledgingthe ramifications, apologizing
when necessary, moving on makinganother decision.
The hard-headedness of beingmarried to that kind of thing is
the hubris that really bringsleaders down.
And if you can avoid that witha little bit, a little bit of
(22:28):
humility, uh, I think you are ingood shape.
I just use the wordshardheadedness, hubris and
humility all in one sentence,which is, you know, alliteration
for the win.
I'll take it.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
You must be a writer because you're getting all the
big words in there.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
It's fantastic All the all the lawyers and a bit of
an asshole.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
So that's that's really what you're hearing.
That's fantastic.
Get it all out there.
I'll keep it all.
I'll suck it all in.
It's perfect.
What, what?
What advice might you have forleaders out there who who are
worried about their storiesmaybe not being the most
powerful or the most helpful forthem?
Like, do you think that evenexists?
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Look, we've seen a real shift, I think, in
leadership, in the openness ofvulnerability, and you know the
power of storytelling.
There was a time when leaderswere, you know, big faceless
beings.
You know someone so and so wasin charge and they went
unquestioned because, you know,you just defer to their
authority and so they wereautomatically supremely right in
(23:32):
everything they did.
And those days are gone, youknow so.
Whether you see it in thecorporate space, whether you see
it in, you know, in your case,in the services or anywhere else
, you see that more now, maybeless so in your world, but
generally speaking, especiallyin business, you see more of
that vulnerability, more of thathumility, more of sort of the
peeling back the curtain andseeing the wizard behind the
curtain.
(23:53):
I don't think we have thepatience anymore as a society
for that faceless curtain.
We really want to see who'sinvolved.
It makes us connect with peoplemuch better.
We recognize now, andespecially in a world that
robots seem to be taking overquite quickly, that we are only
human and we make mistakes andwe have vulnerabilities and
things that make us unique.
And it's that human touch,which is where storytelling
(24:16):
comes in, that really does helpus connect and relate to each
other.
Today, when you buy into abrand, you're buying into their
story.
You know we are all in acrowded, no matter what we do,
we're all in a crowdedmarketplace and what sets us
apart is our stories.
They're what make us unique.
So being able to have thatlevel of openness that can
(24:36):
actually put you and your storyface forward to an audience is
going to be what sets you apart.
It's that know, like and trustwe talked about at the beginning
.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Absolutely and really .
I mean there was a lot of talkabout COVID and pros and cons
and all the different things,but one of the things it did was
force us as a society to remindourselves that we need each
other's company, that we cantext each other all we want, but
at the end of the day, we want,we crave that connection, and
the stories are one of the waysthat we we make those
(25:07):
connections and, as a leader,that's our opportunity to build
those stories, to show somevulnerability, maybe share a
funny story, maybe talk about atime that was a little more
difficult.
It's all relative to the memberand what they might want to
share and when, and of course,the situation would depend on
that.
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 3 (25:27):
100%.
We remember stories.
You talked about this at thebeginning.
They stick with us.
The stories that you and I wereswapping before we started
recording are ones that I willremember.
I'm not going to remembereverything that either of us
said on this podcast.
I'll remember a lot of it.
But I will remember thosestories because they're great
stories and you told them welland you were there and you could
engage.
Anytime you hear somebody tell agreat story, you really do
(25:48):
remember it.
There used to be back whenGeorge Trombolopoulos had his
CBC show and I liked his talkshow but he had a segment called
Best Story Ever and he hadthese guests like he had some
pretty big names on the show andthere would be an independent
segment where they'd be filmedsitting in a big easy chair for
like two, three minutes tellinga great story.
(26:09):
And when you get somebody youknow who's a notable name, who's
been around the block, who'slived, who's had a really
interesting career, they've gota wealth of great stories.
Half people put up memoirs.
It's really just a collectionof all the stories they've
amassed over the years and sohaving someone tell their best
story ever, there are reallygreat, memorable pieces of oh
yeah, okay, that's a crazy story.
(26:30):
You know, you get stories thatyou wouldn't believe unless
somebody was actually there inthe room and witnessed something
.
It doesn't always have to be themost interesting story in the
world, but there's something,especially even when it's not,
when it is something more, youknow, mundane, we connect with
it because it is so relatable.
You know, I'm not going to tellyou a story of the other day I
(26:50):
was driving in my Bentley and aRolls Royce was trying to race.
That's not, hey, I don't haveyou throw those cars.
That's not relatable.
That's not a way that we'regoing to have that conversation.
But if I can tell you aboutsomething very ordinary that
happened to me, you're going tokind of have to.
If you watch a lot of Seinfeld,it's literally a show about
nothing, because it's a showthat is so relatable and those
(27:13):
experiences are so relatable.
That's why that still resonates30 years later.
We resonate with those everydayexperiences because we can, no
matter how big someone is.
So if it's a great story, it'stotally outlandish, or it's
about a famous figure or a worldleader or something huge, very
cool, and we read, it's funnyand we engage with it.
But if it's something totallyordinary, within our own scope
(27:35):
of experience.
We go oh hey, that sounds likeme, I can connect with this
person.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
We have something in common and it's that connection,
that that's something in commonthat will bring everyone
together as leaders.
The challenge is how do webring people together?
How are we going to do that?
For myself, in a few weeks, Iwill actually be deploying all
the way up to alert for a fewweeks and I'm going to be
plunked in with a group ofpeople that all know each other
(27:59):
and I'm the outsider, and goingto be plunked in with a group of
people that all know each otherand I'm the outsider and, at
the same token, I'm expected tolead this group.
So how am I going to do that?
How am I going to bring peopletogether?
I'm already doing that bycontacting individuals and say,
hey, I'm so-and-so, this is whoI am, this is what I do, this is
what I know, this is what Idon't know.
You'll note, the don't knowlist is significantly longer,
but that's okay.
We're going to figure this outtogether and we'll go from there
(28:21):
.
And then, when we're allactually in the same, the same
area, we'll, we'll share somestories, we'll, we'll, we'll get
together and we'll talk andwe'll figure it out and we'll
find a way.
We'll find those connectionsand that that's how we build
that trust.
At the end of the day, peoplewant to be heard and they want
to know that they're.
They bring value to the table,and the stories that we use are
(28:41):
our way for us to relay thatinformation.
What are your thoughts on that?
That's my perception, would you?
Speaker 3 (28:46):
agree with that?
No, and it's an interesting onebecause, you know, think about
it.
If you come in closed, off andguarded, you know, as a leader,
that's going to be a realchallenge, right, that's going
to be a really interesting.
So, you know, think about theposition that you take as you're
going up there, you're leadingthis whole group of people that
you don't know.
If you go in there closed andyou know, off limits and, yes,
(29:09):
you're in the military, sothere's a certain level of
professionalism and such buteven still, if you go in there
closed and guarded and very shutdown and not willing to talk to
anybody, that's gonna make itvery difficult to connect with
anyone.
If you go in there really openand as yourself, with your
personality, and even thoughyou're, you know, many years in
service and very official andvery professional, you can still
(29:29):
be a human being while you do.
That, it's going to leave thatopportunity to say, hey, maybe
this is something that I want toget to know and you'll be able
to connect with people just asthey get to connect with you.
Look, what do two Canadians talkabout when they get together
and don't know each other?
Two Canadians start to have aconversation.
What's the first thing thatcomes up?
The weather.
It's the one thing we can allrelate to and all connect to.
(29:50):
It's banal and it's very simple, but it's a thing that we have
and we can start telling stories.
You're from Ottawa, but ifyou've ever been out in a
snowstorm and you're shovelingnext to neighbors that you
haven't met, you start up aconversation because you're both
.
You know under, you know howmany centimeters of snow and you
start a conversation from thereand then you start talking
(30:11):
about family and everything elseand you really get to know
somebody.
We are meant to connect witheach other.
You talked about, you know,covid and the the harshness of
lockdowns.
We are meant to have thosebonds in those relationships.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
And the challenge with that isis, you know, the technology
exists in such a way that it'seasy for us to be connected but
not be connected.
But some, some people like itand some people don't like it,
and it's tough not to judgeothers for what they want to do
with that.
As the leader, the trick is tofigure out what your team
members want and it's not justlike, okay, I know john wants
(30:46):
this, uh, this person wants that, and then you're done.
It's about always doing thosecheck-ins and saying maybe they
want some alone time right nowand that's okay, but maybe
tomorrow they don't.
It really depends.
It's the leader'sresponsibility to find a way to
build that community, build,build that sense of connection
and then maintain it and keep itgoing forward.
And that's really how you buildthe sense of community and,
(31:07):
ultimately, a longstanding trust, because that's what these
things are all going to do.
Everything in team building isabout building a sense and a
level of trust.
Would you agree with?
Speaker 3 (31:16):
that 100%.
No, you are the expert in thatand I agree with you completely.
It is, you are.
You are the expert in that andI agree with you completely.
It is very much that no likeand trust.
So how do you get to that trust?
They've got to know you,they've got to ideally like you
and how?
Speaker 1 (31:31):
how would you think they would do that?
I know we've talked a lot aboutstories, but are there any
specific types of stories youwould not recommend, or does it
kind of?
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (31:38):
thoughts.
Yeah, I think you have toreally know your audience and be
able to sort of read theaudience.
So you know there's what.
Do you talk about?
A dinner party?
Well, do you avoidcontroversial topics?
You know when you can.
I mean, do you talk about youknow personal politics or
religion, or you know personallife or you know family issues,
that you know a firstconversation Usually no, usually
(32:00):
you sort of keep things banaland easygoing and you start to
really share.
If you've ever met somebody whoshares too much too quickly,
you'll know what an awkward anduncomfortable move it can be.
So you can start a little bitslow and really gauge your
audience and gauge how receptivethey are to learning more about
you.
I just wrote something thisevening that I'm going to be
(32:21):
posting tomorrow about how, withme, I work with clients from
all walks of life, all shapesand sizes, from solopreneurs to
multinational corporations.
When I work with a client, Itreat everyone the same.
I am me, I don't change To me.
People are people and if youhave made the choice to work
with me, that's an honor that Idon't take lightly.
(32:41):
but I'm going to give you asmuch respect and as much
consideration, no matter howlarge you are or what you're
paying me, and I'm going to giveyou my all and you're going to
get, you know, the best of thebest of me that I can offer you,
because I value therelationship, because we are
getting to know each other, likeeach other and trust each other
.
You know, and you've made thatchoice to go with me.
(33:02):
So for me it's about you know,being able to sort of know that
audience, being able to reallyassess where to go and if people
don't click and if they're notthe right fit to be, you know,
you try to find some commonground.
If you have to work togetherand maybe you know you're not
meant to be working together,but you really sort of try to
find some way that you canconnect with somebody else,
(33:24):
there's usually a road in foreverybody.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
You know, you bring up a really strong point in that
sometimes people just aren'tgoing to get along and and
that's okay.
Now it's our responsibility toat least put an honest effort in
to try and get that to happen.
But sometimes it's just notgoing to.
It's just not going to work,it's just the way it goes.
It sucks.
(33:47):
It's rare, I believe it's veryrare, but it does happen.
How do we do that?
How do we, how do we fix thatproblem?
Speaker 3 (33:52):
When you have someone who you just don't get along
with.
You know it depends on sort ofwhat position you're in If you
have no choice but to beconnected with them.
Look, the reality is youprobably have a common goal.
You know you're probably bothworking towards the same
ambition.
We spoke, you know, earlierabout how Canada's in a tough
spot right now, and so you knowthere's so many partisan
politicians.
(34:13):
Putting partisan politics aside, they might disagree
passionately on many levels ofpolicy, but they realize they've
got a greater common goal thanthe petty squabbles that can
come between them, and I thinkthat's a huge part of it.
So, yeah, you might have apersonality clash, or someone
might not be.
You know your cup of tea oryou're not theirs, and you know
(34:34):
if you can get away from aconversation and social
situation, that's a differentstory.
But if you are in a positionwhere you have to work with them
, okay, what are you bothworking towards?
What is your common goal here?
And sometimes people who are,you know, opposites in
personality or what have you canactually get on better when
they recognize that and play totheir strengths to get the job
done.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Well, thanks so much for that, and I completely agree
that it's just kind of got tofigure it out.
Sometimes just the way it is.
I know when I was in theinfantry way back when I started
my career there, a section is10 people and every single
section there was someone thatwe just didn't like each other.
It's just the way it goes is 10, 10 young guys, usually the
sergeant's a bit older, but 10young guys at my time it was all
(35:19):
men and uh, someone's just notgetting along and for whatever
reason it happened to be.
More most often than not it wasabout smoking.
I've always been a non-smokerand, uh, more often than not the
section was the majority peoplewere smokers and we just turned
into a thing and but we'dfigure it out eventually.
There were some people I justdidn't like because they were
just like, just whatever reason.
(35:41):
We found a way to still, youknow, go through and do our
assaults and all the differentstuff we have to do to do our
thing.
Sometimes it's just the way itis.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
You're not going to be friends with everyone and
that's okay, Exactly, and I youknow it's funny in my business
I've really come to realize that, look, I joke that I'm too old
to be all things to all peopleand maybe we're not the right
fit to work together, and thatis completely okay.
I will try to help you findsomeone else.
I recognize now, you know,there's a real point of maturity
, especially as an entrepreneur,when you're no longer chasing
(36:11):
every client and every dollar.
And it's tough sometimes ifyou're starting out or if you
know business is slow and youfeel like you need to do certain
things that aren't comfortable,and sometimes things are
uncomfortable, but there arecertainly times where you
realize, okay, wait a second,this is not where I should be,
what I should be doing, andthere's a real maturity to that.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
I completely agree with you.
It's the ability to recognizethat and know that's coming.
And again, if we're going totie this back to stories, if
we're, often we'll be like, isthis really where I want to be?
And we'll look back at asituation or multiple situations
and retell that story toourselves and be like, okay,
this is, this is not what I wantto do, this is not the path I
want to be on, this is not thething I want to have happen.
(36:56):
And we figured out, we make adecision and that's okay.
No judgment on how what thatdecision might be.
You know, I do feel that it'simportant and the spirit of
talking about storytelling andhow connections are made and how
we are able to do that together.
It's important for people tounderstand how you and I got
together.
Somewhere along the way, I wason social media and I was
(37:16):
looking at, scrolling around,looking for guests, guests, and
I happened to come across avideo that you had made and it
was telling your story about howyou got there and it was Sean
it.
For me, it was perfect.
It was just perfect in in whatthe story was, the message that
you were coming across, how youdid the video.
(37:37):
There was a little bit oflightheartedness in it, a little
bit of seriousness I had.
There was a, it seemed.
My impression was and I'm happyto say that I feel I was right
it was the true Sean coming outin this video and that that drew
me in.
I was like I must talk to thisman, I must record them.
I'm sorry it took two years forus to get to this point, but we
(37:57):
we're here and those thingsmatter.
Our stories draws each other into really build a foundation, a
true solid foundation.
Do you have any thoughts onthat at all.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
Oh, first of all, you're very kind.
I was talking about the videoactually earlier today, so I had
done that.
I believe in I want to say 2022with a local video production
company that I do a lot of workwith and I'm very proud of it.
It went very smoothly to me.
It really was a great intropiece to my business because
it's about 90 seconds long.
(38:30):
It's sort of an infomercial, awalk and talk.
It was shot very well.
I take no credit for that.
I give them full credit.
I wrote the script, but I givethem full credit.
Give them full credit.
I wrote the script, but I givethem full credit.
And it really kind of shows offwho I am, both by telling my
story and by showing mypersonality, as you said, in 90
seconds.
So in 90 seconds you really geta sense of, hey, I want to talk
(38:52):
to this guy, I want to workwith this guy, or this is not my
kind of guy, and both are okay,both are completely okay
responses I'm not offended bythe latter and maybe you realize
oh, that's not someone who I'dwant to do business with.
That's fine, that's fine.
I wish you good luck in findingthe right person for you, but I
like that.
I am very much.
I really came into my businesswith a shred of ego.
(39:15):
I checked my ego at the door.
I never had the lawyer's egoego at the door.
I never had the lawyer's ego.
Thank goodness I had thewriter's ego, which is I don't
care what you pay me, but myname stays on everything.
And I realized that that's alousy way to make a living.
And so I'm a ghost.
I'm a ghost writer.
I stay in the shadows.
I am there, look, I know whatI'm doing.
(39:35):
I'm good at what I do.
I'm there to offer the bestadvice that I can and give a
different perspective, et cetera, et cetera.
But ultimately I'm there tohelp you achieve your goals and
you know your goals.
At the end of the day, myclients own the material.
The material is theirs.
So I'm there to be me and I'mthere to sort of help as much as
(39:56):
I possibly can, and I'm gladthat you know was something that
you saw and thankfully I'vebeen able to help a whole lot of
people over the last five and ahalf years and I'm grateful for
every single one.
I don't take a single clientfor granted.
It's really a blessedopportunity that I have to be
able to do what I do.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
I believe that I would love to, some way down the
road, find a way to work withyou on something I don't know.
I'd love to experience thatwith you.
That would be fantastic, andalthough I won't have the
opportunity right now, I wouldlike to shift a little bit.
I think we've talked a lotabout the power of stories.
If people want to reach out toyou, if they want to know more,
they want to work with you, howmight they do that?
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Yeah, so I'm all over the internet.
It's kind of where I make myliving, so the business is
called the Right Stuff AgencyW-R-I-T-E.
It's a little pun, so thewebsite is therightstuffagency,
not com agency.
It could be anything.
Today I am at Sean S-H-A-U-N attherightstuffagency Instagram.
(40:57):
The Right Stuff Agency.
Linkedin.
Facebook.
I'm all over.
The Right Stuff Agency.
Linkedin.
Facebook.
I'm all over.
The Right Stuff Agency.
My LinkedIn my personal alsopublishes a fair bit if you want
to find me as Sean Bernstein.
And lastly, the last pitch I'llmake is that I have my own
podcast.
So when you're tired oflistening to Trench Leadership,
you need a break from Simon.
Check out Branding and theBeast.
Four words Branding and theBeast.
(41:20):
I say I play branding and mycolleague Alicia plays the beast
.
She is a phenomenal brandstrategist and graphic designer
out of currently West Virginia.
Which state is she in?
Yeah, I believe so.
No, she's in Virginia, forgiveme.
She's a very dear friend and wehave two guests per episode
(41:42):
talking about different aspectsof branding and marketing and
storytelling visually and words,and it's a really fun show.
I'm quite proud of it.
So, by all means, check us out.
We're on your podcast platformsand YouTube.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Oh, that's fantastic.
Well, of course, there will belinks to all the ways to connect
to you on inside our show notes.
I promise I'll have a link tothe video as well and to your
podcast.
I'm so happy to hear thatyou're doing that.
I will be going to listen tothat when I'm driving home later
tonight.
Well listen, sean.
This has been fantastic andunfortunately, like all good
things, this must come to an end.
I would like to say thank youvery much for your patience and
(42:21):
waiting me out until I was readyto get back to doing this wild
thing that we do calledpodcasting.
Thank you so, so much, and I'mlooking forward to having you
back as a guest very soon.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
Fantastic.
Thanks, Simon.
I appreciate it.
It was worth the wait.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
It sure was.
Thanks, all right.
Well, that's a wrap from thefront, and in this episode we
got to talk to Sean Bernstein,another fellow Canadian, also in
Ontario, canada, and what apleasure it was.
We shared stories, which is thewhole point of this episode to
talk about the power of storiesand how leaders can use those
(42:56):
stories to build teamwork andtrust and all the different
community stuff that I love totalk about, and it's all about
being people I'll try that againand it's all about people being
heard and understanding theneed and the value of telling
stories to bring people in, tocreate those connections that
matter so much for all of us asleaders.
(43:17):
And Sean also talked about thethree main points of a story to
get to know someone, to get tolike someone and get to trust
someone.
That's it.
That's what we need to do, andyou don't even need to like that
person, but what you do need todo is you need to be able to
build that trust, and that'swhat stories do.
Thanks for tuning in andremember leadership without
passion limits the depth of yourvision.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Be sure to join us next week with your host, simon
Cardinal, for another episode ofTrench Leadership, a podcast
from the front Produced by.
It's a Legit Business Musicprovided by Ashimal of Music.
Never miss an episode byfollowing us wherever you get
your podcasts.
While you're there, pleaseconsider leaving us a review and
(44:03):
rating Hint we love five starsand let us know what topics you
would like to hear about.
I would like to begin this episode by acknowledging
that I am located in Ottawa,Ontario, Canada, and I am
privileged and honoured to liveand learn on the unceded,
unsurrendered territory of theAnishinaabe Algonquin Nation.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, you're listening to Trench Leadership,
a podcast from the front, a showfor emerging leaders from all
professions to hear from otherleaders who have led from the
front, made the mistakes, hadthe triumphs and are still
learning along the way.
Produced by Jennifer Lee atit's a Legit Business, a podcast
(00:44):
launch and management company.
And now here's your host, simonCardinal.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of
Trench Leadership, a podcastfrom the front, and in this
episode I am super excited.
I have been trying to get backto podcasting for a while, as
everyone is aware that a fewmonths back I had to stop for
quite a while, but I'm back toit.
And this episode, this guest,this is the reason I get into
(01:16):
podcasting.
This is the reason I starteddoing this and the reason it is
so powerful for me, becausestories matter.
Everything we talk about,everything we do, everything we
say ultimately leads to a story,and most often, the feelings we
hold dear and close to ourheart they're attached to a
story that we have builtourselves and experience we've
had and turned into a story.
(01:38):
Stories are powerful.
They're how we communicate and,without realizing it, we relay
these stories to get our pointsacross.
And we do this because storiesengage us, they pull us in, they
make us part of theconversation.
In fact, stories are sopowerful that the statistics
show the human mind is 22% morelikely to retain the facts of a
(02:00):
story versus just some randomfacts.
And so, as emerging leaders,how can we use the power of
stories to our advantage?
That's easy.
We're going to talk to Sean.
Sean is a journalist turnedstory or, sorry, journalist
turned lawyer turned storytellerwho's going to offer his story
explaining how the story of hisjourney has brought him to power
(02:20):
storytelling as a career path.
How cool is that?
Sean will offer his thoughts onthe importance of stories and
also offer some emerging leadersabout some tips and information
about how they can create thebest stories possible.
I'm assuming we'll hear somestories while we're doing that,
but, as always, no one wants tohear from me.
They want to hear from theguests.
So let's bring in Sean andlet's chat.
(02:40):
Hey, sean, how's it going today?
Pretty great.
Simon.
How about yourself?
Fantastic.
I am so excited to be doingthis episode with you.
We have been talking about thisfor a couple of years and we
finally made it.
I can't thank you enough foryour patience.
That's a whole story in itselfabout how we finally got to this
point, but we'll get there.
Before we get into it, whydon't we just take a couple of
(03:01):
moments and tell us about you?
Let's hear from about Sean.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Yeah, no, my pleasure , and I'd love to tell you sort
of a bit of my story as we gothrough this, because really in
the end we're talking about thepower of storytelling, as you
did in the intro, and it's allabout that know, like and trust.
And you know, your listenersright now don't really know me,
but if I tell you my story alittle bit you're gonna get to
know me, you might get to likeme because I try to be a little
funny, a little charming, andthen if you know and like me,
(03:26):
you're gonna trust what I haveto say next.
So that's where it all comesfrom, my story, that whole multi
hyphenate nonsense that I kindof had to read out in the
beginning.
That kind of walks through thejourney.
My most my educational careerwas debated between journalism
and law and so I'm doing both.
I did go to journalism schoolactually started out in Ottawa,
(03:46):
where you are once upon a timeat Carleton, and their
journalism program Didn't finish, wound up doing a grad program
back in Toronto.
Loved every second of it.
I was producing at CBC for CBCRadio, just you know, living the
dream as I thought.
Only problem was job market wasnot exactly as into media at
(04:06):
the time as I was, so not awhole lot of opportunities to go
off of.
Really wasn't sure what to dowith my life, wound up selling
my soul and went to law school.
So I went to law school down inbeautiful Windsor where it's
always a couple degrees warmerthan Toronto.
It's very pretty.
Got the nicest waterfront inthe country, as far as I'm
(04:27):
concerned, okay maybe Vancouver.
fine, Vancouver is prettyamazing, it's true, but nicest
waterfront in Ontario I willgive to Windsor any day.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I'll give you that one that's fair.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
The canal is nice it's one of the nicer
waterfronts in Ontario but Idigress Spent a couple years
down there.
Waterfronts in Ontario, but Idigress.
I spent a couple years downthere, finished with a law
degree.
You don't specialize inCanadian law schools.
You learn a bit of everything,but I really fell in with labor
and employment and human rights.
I liked helping people.
(04:57):
I like being able to kind ofwork one-on-one and helping
someone through a problem Nextto you know family and criminal
law.
Our jobs are one of the mostimportant things in our lives
and the things that we holdreally dear.
So it's a huge part of youridentity and when that job is
lost or when you have to takesomeone's job away, it's a
traumatic move.
So I really got to help, youknow, through those scenarios,
especially with the human rightswork, and really help people
(05:18):
out of jams, which I love doing.
What I hated was the business oflaw.
The business of law isabsolutely brutal.
It really is a tough industry.
There's a reason why there issuch a mental health crisis in
the profession and I became partof that mental health crisis
and that was really why I left.
(05:38):
I actually wound up leavingtwice and the second time I said
I'm never going to do thisagain as long as I live.
And I have held true to thatpromise so fast forward.
I was, you know, doing somecontract legal review work just
to pay the bills, but I reallywasn't sure what was going to
come next.
And my wife, who's much smarterthan me, on my worst day,
(06:02):
elbowed me in the ribs and saidme on my worst day, elbowed me
in the ribs and said you're awriter, go and write Harder than
me.
On my best day, said to me youknow you are a writer, go and
write, go out there and do yourthing.
I had won I've always been awriter and I'd won a couple
National Writing Awards and Iknew that I could write.
I knew I could tell a story.
(06:22):
What I really didn't know is ifit was a business.
My impression, however misguided, was always that you know
writers don't like the livingWriters.
Are, you know these starvingartists on the left bank of the
Seine in Paris?
You know chain smoking and youknow chomping on baguettes and
sitting there with a notebooklike this lost, you know 50s
(06:44):
image.
That was my view of a writer.
And for all of those, there arethe tom clancy's and the james
patterson's and john grisham'sand you know whoever else, um,
is, you know, huge today?
Uh, george rr martin or beccayaros or whoever else who's
making crazy money.
(07:04):
It's all the same toolkit.
It's all the same 26 letters,it's the same vocabulary.
They're just doing somethingdifferent in a different way.
And I said maybe there'ssomething here.
So I, you know, with nobackground in marketing or
business, started a marketingbusiness and Hannah Shingle said
, hey, I'm available.
And the work started coming in.
(07:25):
And this is about six monthspre COVID.
So you know, interesting time.
To be self-employed as anentrepreneur actually was not
such a bad move at the time.
I mean, as hard as lockdownswere, it was the big kick in the
butt for businesses realizingthey had to get their online
presence into shape.
A lot of businesses that tookit for granted realized, oh hey,
(07:47):
wait a second, we need toactually get some fresh content
out because our stuff from the90s isn't going to cut it today.
And we you know kind of thingskind of went from there.
So I'm now in my sixth year ofthis business and, having the
time of my life, it's grown andevolved, and so have I.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
That's amazing.
I love that story.
I mean it's incredible howpeople are, you're, you're
driving down a certain path andyou're like this is going to be
it, this is what I'm going to do, this is my calling.
And then you realize, you knowwhat?
Maybe maybe there's anothercalling, and I think most people
they experienced that Like formyself as a young kid.
My dad was in the military and Iknew I just always knew I
(08:30):
wanted to be in the military.
I looked at him when he worehis uniform and I remember
thinking, wow, he's doingsomething important and he knows
that.
I remember thinking that as akid it was a little
disappointing when I was sayingthat to him one day, expecting
this amazing response of the gas.
I'm and it's the greatestthrill of my life to be able to
serve my country.
And he said well, I joinedbecause it was it was the mid
(08:51):
70s and I needed a job and itwas good.
It was a good pension.
At the end of it I'm like, well, that is, that is not what I
was expecting to hear, but goodto know.
And he's not wrong.
It doesn't make what he did anyless valid, but his path took
him down that way for thatreason.
And then I joined I stilljoined the military and I went
and I did all of that and I didit because I believed in the
higher calling, the purpose ofthat.
(09:13):
And then many, many years laterI realized, okay, this has
become my entire identity, howdo I not do that?
And I, I shifted my career pathand I shifted in a different
direction, to something that wasmore in line with who I was at
that time.
Because those evolutions happenand and I do believe that when
we're going through those typesof things, if we pay attention
to what's happening, that is, usshaping our own story and how
(09:36):
we're able to go ahead and dowhat we're going to do Does that
make any sense?
Does that resonate at all?
I think you've cut out of.
If you can still hear me, I canhear you, but, uh, you're, but
I've, I've, I've lost you okay,here one sec, all right okay,
(09:58):
that, that's fun, can you canhear me?
okay, though?
Oh, what is going on here?
One sec.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Oh, you got me there.
There we go.
Yep, Now you're.
Now you're back.
Your connection dropped.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Okay, that's strange, that figures, of course.
Yeah, sorry about that.
Uh what?
Uh what was I saying?
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Uh, talking about sort of shaping your own story.
And you know you talked aboutyour dad.
That all picked up, okay, andthen you were kind of going into
sheesh where were you?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Okay, well, I'll pick it up from what my dad from
shaping our stories.
We'll go from there, Sure, soso, yeah, so, so, as we're
shaping those stories, if we'rereally paying attention, that's,
that's the story of our lives,and we need to know where we're
going and where we've been, tomake sure we know where we're
going and make sure we're onthat path that we want to go at.
And so the question I have foryou does that resonate?
(10:57):
Do you think that makes sense?
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Yeah, I think very much.
So, you know, my whole view isthat I've hit several walls in
my life and when I hit the wall,I don't stop, I go left or I go
right and I make a decision andI pivot and I turn.
I've given keynotes about thisand it's really all just about
pivoting and learning how topivot and staying agile in
(11:21):
whatever you do, because youdon't know what's coming next.
I started a sales job.
I was working for a recruiter,doing sales for a tech recruiter
, and I started in 2008, the daythat Bear Stearns crashed, and
basically was there with him fora couple of months through
literally the start of the worsteconomic crisis that we had
seen in decades.
(11:42):
Terrible time to be doing highlevel sales, just awful.
And so, you know, I thoughtthat that might have been part
of where my career was.
And no, it's okay.
This is a good cue that I haveto do a pivot.
I was not headed to law school.
My LSATs were not cutting it.
I had, you know, written a testa couple times.
(12:03):
You have a max of how manytimes you can do it, but I've
written a few times over theyears.
It wasn't getting there.
I was preparing for a life ofHR.
I had a job working inrecruiting that I was, you know,
enjoying.
It was a bit of a crazy job.
They wanted me to stay, theydid not want me to leave for
school.
They were thrilled with me and,you know, those test scores
weren't great and I said youknow what, okay, like I'll, I
(12:26):
took the weekend to think itthrough I'll make a career out
of this.
That's wonderful.
And some things came up thatyou know made me change my mind
and I realized very quickly okay, let's, let's do this, let's
find a way to make this happen.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
And I did, and I'm pardon me, I did and I'm
grateful that I I made that moveBecause, again, just that pivot
and you know you hit the wallgo left, you go right, you keep
going, and it's that it's aboutthat pivoting that is so
important because, as like,especially as a new leader,
quite often you're going to hitthat wall.
Actually, it doesn't reallymatter at what leadership level
(13:00):
you're at.
You're gonna, you're gonna bedriving along, you'll be doing
whatever it is you're doing andyou're gonna get hit.
And, more often than not, whenyou hit that point, it's gonna
okay to be.
Okay, what do I do?
How do I fix this?
How do I keep going forward?
And we're going to rely on ourexperiences to be able to guide
us a little bit.
And it's those stories of thethings that we were thinking
(13:20):
about when we had an impactfulmoment, saying, oh, I remember
this time when this happened andthis is what we did.
That's a story.
Those things matter.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
And taking those and taking them forward really,
really matter.
What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, I think being able totalk about that pivot and just
staying agile instead ofrecognizing where opportunities
exist and that it might not bewhere you thought it was and it
might not take the shape thatyou thought it did, but if you
are able to think quickly and onyour feet, you're going to see
those windows of opportunity andyou'll be able to seize them.
There's such a beauty in thislife of saying yes.
You know that one of thefreedoms that we have is the
(13:57):
freedom to say yes and to beable to seize opportunities.
And we are so much morefortunate in every way in our
lives than we do.
And we're really at a loss whenwe don't so recognizing when
those come, taking chances,taking risks.
The worst can happen ifsomething doesn't work out and
you try something else.
We rephrase that the worst canhappen if something doesn't work
(14:19):
out and you try something else.
You move on, you try a new wayof doing something.
But there is so much out thereif you're really willing to kind
of open your eyes and see wherethe opportunity lies, and
you're absolutely willing tokind of open your eyes and see
where the opportunity lies andyou're absolutely right and take
the chance.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
That's okay.
And if you, if you land, if youstumble me, it it's fine, it's.
It might be a kind of a funstory for you down the road.
One of the the most pivotalstories I have for myself, when,
uh, that I can remember.
That was very, very impactfulfor me and it still, to this day
, has affected how I will reactin different situations or less
(14:57):
so now, because I like to thinkI'm a little more mature but it
really affected how I wouldinteract and how I would act as
a leader was I was very, verytiny, very scrawny little Simon
Cardinal in 1983, probably, andin my school.
So I was nine years old andwe're doing our thing and our
(15:17):
class was doing a I don't knowwhat you would call it a
fundraiser, and we were runningaround the gym and you know I'm
nine years old and the idea wasthat we were, with finger
quotations, running to DisneyWorld and in my brain all I
heard was we're going to DisneyWorld and I actually thought we
were going to Disney World.
So here I am in this class.
It's grade three.
(15:38):
We're all in the big circle inthe middle of the gym and the
gym teacher says, hey, listen,does anyone have any questions?
So I put my hand up and I'mlike, yeah, I have a question.
Am I going to need a sleepingbag?
And everyone started laughingand they're freaking out.
I was, and I still I did.
That day I remember not evenunderstanding why people were so
upset so or not, that they wereupset, why they were laughing.
(15:59):
And so I went home and I saidthis to my parents.
I'm like I don't get it.
We're going in my.
My parents were laughing at me.
I'm like, okay, well, this isnot good and that that
embarrassment that stuck with mefor a very, very long time and,
depending on how confident I amin a particular situation, the
feelings of that will come backand get to me.
(16:20):
So how do I deal with that?
I've learned that that is athing that I have to deal with
and I work my way through and Ipush through and I will take the
chances and I'll ask thequestions.
If even if I think it's anobvious question that everyone
else probably knows the answerI'll at least ask it and then I
know and I'm able to go goingforward.
It's not easy, but I do, andI'm able to force myself to do
(16:42):
that.
So I'm using the story of whenI was a kid to help me
understand when I'm strugglingas a leader.
Do you have any any thoughts onthat at all, any examples or
what are your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Oh for sure.
And I find, look, you know, yougot a couple of years on me but
I'm getting older myself andwith age I'm learning a lot from
experience.
I'm learning to forgive myselffor a lot of those things.
You know, I've got a prettysolid memory and I can remember,
you know, stupid things that Ihave said over the years or
(17:13):
times that I haveunintentionally hurt people or
embarrassed myself or what haveyou.
And I think as I get older Irealize, look, I'm a human being
just doing my best, I try to domore right than wrong and I
really have tried hard to domore good than bad, really have
tried hard to do more good thanbad.
And so, forgiving myself, youknow, those mistakes, those
transgressions, those you knowdumb remarks, etc.
(17:36):
Learning to kind of let it go,and it is very freeing, it gives
me a new sense of confidence inmyself.
I find, even in my business, youknow, in the last couple years
I just dealt with a difficultsituation not long ago and I was
actually very proud of myselfbecause I had a lot more
confidence in how I dealt withthings than I would have even
(17:56):
three, four years ago.
I would have been quaking in myboots to have a difficult
conversation with somebody orhave any awkwardness, and I kind
of said no and I was able tostand up for myself and it was a
very, very freeing moment ofhey, I am in the right, I know
I'm in the right and I know thatI'm making the right decision
for me and I have to go withthat.
(18:18):
So that comes with learning,that comes with age.
I don't know that there's a waythat you can learn it early on.
I think experience really is agreat teacher.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Oh yeah, that experience of getting through it
and realizing that you'll getthrough it.
Even if you stumble, you'll getup.
You'll get through it, it'sfine, it really is okay.
It's not the end of the world.
I just recently, our Lady Peacemade their way through Ottawa
recently and they're my favoriteband when I was a kid and still
my favorite band now, andthere's a song called Clumsy and
in it they talk about stumblingand scraping your knee because
(18:56):
the shoelace tripped you againand that that hit me as well,
because I'm like that's, that'swhat life is Like.
It's not an easy thing to go andlearn these things and not
everything needs to be this,this giant life altering
experience.
Uh, when I was learning to ridemotorcycles, uh, it was, it was
the fall, it was the end of thefirst riding season and I just
wanted to go around the blockreally quickly and I knew that I
(19:17):
was rushing.
So I, because of that, I hadthe wherewithal to put my, my
safety boots on, but I and my,my, my helmet, but I did not
have the proper jacket with thearmor on.
I didn't let the engine heat upand I was not paying attention.
I just was just very quicklygoing to go around the block, I
came into this one little weirdS turn on my street.
I was doing 10 kilometers anhour.
I shifted gears.
(19:37):
Next thing I know I'm lookingup at the sky and the lady who
was walking her dog was laughingand stunned at the same time
because the bike had fallen away.
Four stitches on my elbow andmy pride got hurt.
Hurt, but I learned from it.
I don't rush.
Sometimes you just need to makethe mistakes and and that's
okay.
There's nothing wrong with that.
(19:59):
And, as a leader, making thosemistakes is okay.
It sucks.
It sucks when people arelooking at you to not make
mistakes.
But, like we were talking aboutbefore we started recording,
people are people, are peopleand everyone is going to make
mistakes.
You can be the head of state,you can be me, you can be anyone
else.
It doesn't matter.
(20:19):
Those mistakes will happen.
It's what we do with them andhow we remember them as we go
forward.
Does that make sense?
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Oh, hello there.
It's Glenn, the voiceoverartist, and if you're hearing me
, that means we're at themidpoint of this episode.
Are you considering startingyour own podcast?
Are you confused or overwhelmedand don't know where to start?
Well, jennifer at it's a LegitBusiness is a podcast wizard who
(20:46):
can help you get started,provide advice, consultation and
help you along the way.
Trench Leadership has beenusing it's a Legit Business for
over a year, and Jennifer offerspersonalized service, catering
to the podcast's unique needsand desires, truly hearing
Simon's requests and beinginstrumental in realizing Trench
(21:06):
Leadership's vision for eachepisode.
If you want to get started,contact Jennifer at jennifer at
itsalegitbusinesscom and she'llhelp you realize your dreams.
Trench Leadership is alwaysstriving to improve our content
and provide valuable insightsfor leaders across all
professions, and to do this,your feedback is crucial.
(21:29):
So drop us a note at simonk attrenchleadershipca and let us
know what's working and what canbe improved.
And now back to the show.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
It makes great sense.
Look, you know, you act withthe best information you have
available and you really takethe time to be thoughtful and
weigh it out.
You make what you think is theright decision at the time.
And part of leadership isacknowledging you've made a bad
call and acknowledging when youknow what you've done is maybe
not the right decision foreverybody, or what the
consequences are, and having theself-confidence to know that,
(22:08):
okay, maybe I made a wrongdecision.
That does not mean I'm a badperson or a bad leader.
Acknowledging it, acknowledgingthe ramifications, apologizing
when necessary, moving on makinganother decision.
The hard-headedness of beingmarried to that kind of thing is
the hubris that really bringsleaders down.
And if you can avoid that witha little bit, a little bit of
(22:28):
humility, uh, I think you are ingood shape.
I just use the wordshardheadedness, hubris and
humility all in one sentence,which is, you know, alliteration
for the win.
I'll take it.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
You must be a writer because you're getting all the
big words in there.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
It's fantastic All the all the lawyers and a bit of
an asshole.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
So that's that's really what you're hearing.
That's fantastic.
Get it all out there.
I'll keep it all.
I'll suck it all in.
It's perfect.
What, what?
What advice might you have forleaders out there who who are
worried about their storiesmaybe not being the most
powerful or the most helpful forthem?
Like, do you think that evenexists?
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Look, we've seen a real shift, I think, in
leadership, in the openness ofvulnerability, and you know the
power of storytelling.
There was a time when leaderswere, you know, big faceless
beings.
You know someone so and so wasin charge and they went
unquestioned because, you know,you just defer to their
authority and so they wereautomatically supremely right in
(23:32):
everything they did.
And those days are gone, youknow so.
Whether you see it in thecorporate space, whether you see
it in, you know, in your case,in the services or anywhere else
, you see that more now, maybeless so in your world, but
generally speaking, especiallyin business, you see more of
that vulnerability, more of thathumility, more of sort of the
peeling back the curtain andseeing the wizard behind the
curtain.
(23:53):
I don't think we have thepatience anymore as a society
for that faceless curtain.
We really want to see who'sinvolved.
It makes us connect with peoplemuch better.
We recognize now, andespecially in a world that
robots seem to be taking overquite quickly, that we are only
human and we make mistakes andwe have vulnerabilities and
things that make us unique.
And it's that human touch,which is where storytelling
(24:16):
comes in, that really does helpus connect and relate to each
other.
Today, when you buy into abrand, you're buying into their
story.
You know we are all in acrowded, no matter what we do,
we're all in a crowdedmarketplace and what sets us
apart is our stories.
They're what make us unique.
So being able to have thatlevel of openness that can
(24:36):
actually put you and your storyface forward to an audience is
going to be what sets you apart.
It's that know, like and trustwe talked about at the beginning
.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Absolutely and really .
I mean there was a lot of talkabout COVID and pros and cons
and all the different things,but one of the things it did was
force us as a society to remindourselves that we need each
other's company, that we cantext each other all we want, but
at the end of the day, we want,we crave that connection, and
the stories are one of the waysthat we we make those
(25:07):
connections and, as a leader,that's our opportunity to build
those stories, to show somevulnerability, maybe share a
funny story, maybe talk about atime that was a little more
difficult.
It's all relative to the memberand what they might want to
share and when, and of course,the situation would depend on
that.
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 3 (25:27):
100%.
We remember stories.
You talked about this at thebeginning.
They stick with us.
The stories that you and I wereswapping before we started
recording are ones that I willremember.
I'm not going to remembereverything that either of us
said on this podcast.
I'll remember a lot of it.
But I will remember thosestories because they're great
stories and you told them welland you were there and you could
engage.
Anytime you hear somebody tell agreat story, you really do
(25:48):
remember it.
There used to be back whenGeorge Trombolopoulos had his
CBC show and I liked his talkshow but he had a segment called
Best Story Ever and he hadthese guests like he had some
pretty big names on the show andthere would be an independent
segment where they'd be filmedsitting in a big easy chair for
like two, three minutes tellinga great story.
(26:09):
And when you get somebody youknow who's a notable name, who's
been around the block, who'slived, who's had a really
interesting career, they've gota wealth of great stories.
Half people put up memoirs.
It's really just a collectionof all the stories they've
amassed over the years and sohaving someone tell their best
story ever, there are reallygreat, memorable pieces of oh
yeah, okay, that's a crazy story.
(26:30):
You know, you get stories thatyou wouldn't believe unless
somebody was actually there inthe room and witnessed something
.
It doesn't always have to be themost interesting story in the
world, but there's something,especially even when it's not,
when it is something more, youknow, mundane, we connect with
it because it is so relatable.
You know, I'm not going to tellyou a story of the other day I
(26:50):
was driving in my Bentley and aRolls Royce was trying to race.
That's not, hey, I don't haveyou throw those cars.
That's not relatable.
That's not a way that we'regoing to have that conversation.
But if I can tell you aboutsomething very ordinary that
happened to me, you're going tokind of have to.
If you watch a lot of Seinfeld,it's literally a show about
nothing, because it's a showthat is so relatable and those
(27:13):
experiences are so relatable.
That's why that still resonates30 years later.
We resonate with those everydayexperiences because we can, no
matter how big someone is.
So if it's a great story, it'stotally outlandish, or it's
about a famous figure or a worldleader or something huge, very
cool, and we read, it's funnyand we engage with it.
But if it's something totallyordinary, within our own scope
(27:35):
of experience.
We go oh hey, that sounds likeme, I can connect with this
person.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
We have something in common and it's that connection,
that that's something in commonthat will bring everyone
together as leaders.
The challenge is how do webring people together?
How are we going to do that?
For myself, in a few weeks, Iwill actually be deploying all
the way up to alert for a fewweeks and I'm going to be
plunked in with a group ofpeople that all know each other
(27:59):
and I'm the outsider, and goingto be plunked in with a group of
people that all know each otherand I'm the outsider and, at
the same token, I'm expected tolead this group.
So how am I going to do that?
How am I going to bring peopletogether?
I'm already doing that bycontacting individuals and say,
hey, I'm so-and-so, this is whoI am, this is what I do, this is
what I know, this is what Idon't know.
You'll note, the don't knowlist is significantly longer,
but that's okay.
We're going to figure this outtogether and we'll go from there
(28:21):
.
And then, when we're allactually in the same, the same
area, we'll, we'll share somestories, we'll, we'll, we'll get
together and we'll talk andwe'll figure it out and we'll
find a way.
We'll find those connectionsand that that's how we build
that trust.
At the end of the day, peoplewant to be heard and they want
to know that they're.
They bring value to the table,and the stories that we use are
(28:41):
our way for us to relay thatinformation.
What are your thoughts on that?
That's my perception, would you?
Speaker 3 (28:46):
agree with that?
No, and it's an interesting onebecause, you know, think about
it.
If you come in closed, off andguarded, you know, as a leader,
that's going to be a realchallenge, right, that's going
to be a really interesting.
So, you know, think about theposition that you take as you're
going up there, you're leadingthis whole group of people that
you don't know.
If you go in there closed andyou know, off limits and, yes,
(29:09):
you're in the military, sothere's a certain level of
professionalism and such buteven still, if you go in there
closed and guarded and very shutdown and not willing to talk to
anybody, that's gonna make itvery difficult to connect with
anyone.
If you go in there really openand as yourself, with your
personality, and even thoughyou're, you know, many years in
service and very official andvery professional, you can still
(29:29):
be a human being while you do.
That, it's going to leave thatopportunity to say, hey, maybe
this is something that I want toget to know and you'll be able
to connect with people just asthey get to connect with you.
Look, what do two Canadians talkabout when they get together
and don't know each other?
Two Canadians start to have aconversation.
What's the first thing thatcomes up?
The weather.
It's the one thing we can allrelate to and all connect to.
(29:50):
It's banal and it's very simple, but it's a thing that we have
and we can start telling stories.
You're from Ottawa, but ifyou've ever been out in a
snowstorm and you're shovelingnext to neighbors that you
haven't met, you start up aconversation because you're both
.
You know under, you know howmany centimeters of snow and you
start a conversation from thereand then you start talking
(30:11):
about family and everything elseand you really get to know
somebody.
We are meant to connect witheach other.
You talked about, you know,covid and the the harshness of
lockdowns.
We are meant to have thosebonds in those relationships.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
And the challenge with that isis, you know, the technology
exists in such a way that it'seasy for us to be connected but
not be connected.
But some, some people like itand some people don't like it,
and it's tough not to judgeothers for what they want to do
with that.
As the leader, the trick is tofigure out what your team
members want and it's not justlike, okay, I know john wants
(30:46):
this, uh, this person wants that, and then you're done.
It's about always doing thosecheck-ins and saying maybe they
want some alone time right nowand that's okay, but maybe
tomorrow they don't.
It really depends.
It's the leader'sresponsibility to find a way to
build that community, build,build that sense of connection
and then maintain it and keep itgoing forward.
And that's really how you buildthe sense of community and,
(31:07):
ultimately, a longstanding trust, because that's what these
things are all going to do.
Everything in team building isabout building a sense and a
level of trust.
Would you agree with?
Speaker 3 (31:16):
that 100%.
No, you are the expert in thatand I agree with you completely.
It is, you are.
You are the expert in that andI agree with you completely.
It is very much that no likeand trust.
So how do you get to that trust?
They've got to know you,they've got to ideally like you
and how?
Speaker 1 (31:31):
how would you think they would do that?
I know we've talked a lot aboutstories, but are there any
specific types of stories youwould not recommend, or does it
kind of?
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (31:38):
thoughts.
Yeah, I think you have toreally know your audience and be
able to sort of read theaudience.
So you know there's what.
Do you talk about?
A dinner party?
Well, do you avoidcontroversial topics?
You know when you can.
I mean, do you talk about youknow personal politics or
religion, or you know personallife or you know family issues,
that you know a firstconversation Usually no, usually
(32:00):
you sort of keep things banaland easygoing and you start to
really share.
If you've ever met somebody whoshares too much too quickly,
you'll know what an awkward anduncomfortable move it can be.
So you can start a little bitslow and really gauge your
audience and gauge how receptivethey are to learning more about
you.
I just wrote something thisevening that I'm going to be
(32:21):
posting tomorrow about how, withme, I work with clients from
all walks of life, all shapesand sizes, from solopreneurs to
multinational corporations.
When I work with a client, Itreat everyone the same.
I am me, I don't change To me.
People are people and if youhave made the choice to work
with me, that's an honor that Idon't take lightly.
(32:41):
but I'm going to give you asmuch respect and as much
consideration, no matter howlarge you are or what you're
paying me, and I'm going to giveyou my all and you're going to
get, you know, the best of thebest of me that I can offer you,
because I value therelationship, because we are
getting to know each other, likeeach other and trust each other
.
You know, and you've made thatchoice to go with me.
(33:02):
So for me it's about you know,being able to sort of know that
audience, being able to reallyassess where to go and if people
don't click and if they're notthe right fit to be, you know,
you try to find some commonground.
If you have to work togetherand maybe you know you're not
meant to be working together,but you really sort of try to
find some way that you canconnect with somebody else,
(33:24):
there's usually a road in foreverybody.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
You know, you bring up a really strong point in that
sometimes people just aren'tgoing to get along and and
that's okay.
Now it's our responsibility toat least put an honest effort in
to try and get that to happen.
But sometimes it's just notgoing to.
It's just not going to work,it's just the way it goes.
It sucks.
(33:47):
It's rare, I believe it's veryrare, but it does happen.
How do we do that?
How do we, how do we fix thatproblem?
Speaker 3 (33:52):
When you have someone who you just don't get along
with.
You know it depends on sort ofwhat position you're in If you
have no choice but to beconnected with them.
Look, the reality is youprobably have a common goal.
You know you're probably bothworking towards the same
ambition.
We spoke, you know, earlierabout how Canada's in a tough
spot right now, and so you knowthere's so many partisan
politicians.
(34:13):
Putting partisan politics aside, they might disagree
passionately on many levels ofpolicy, but they realize they've
got a greater common goal thanthe petty squabbles that can
come between them, and I thinkthat's a huge part of it.
So, yeah, you might have apersonality clash, or someone
might not be.
You know your cup of tea oryou're not theirs, and you know
(34:34):
if you can get away from aconversation and social
situation, that's a differentstory.
But if you are in a positionwhere you have to work with them
, okay, what are you bothworking towards?
What is your common goal here?
And sometimes people who are,you know, opposites in
personality or what have you canactually get on better when
they recognize that and play totheir strengths to get the job
done.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Well, thanks so much for that, and I completely agree
that it's just kind of got tofigure it out.
Sometimes just the way it is.
I know when I was in theinfantry way back when I started
my career there, a section is10 people and every single
section there was someone thatwe just didn't like each other.
It's just the way it goes is 10, 10 young guys, usually the
sergeant's a bit older, but 10young guys at my time it was all
(35:19):
men and uh, someone's just notgetting along and for whatever
reason it happened to be.
More most often than not it wasabout smoking.
I've always been a non-smokerand, uh, more often than not the
section was the majority peoplewere smokers and we just turned
into a thing and but we'dfigure it out eventually.
There were some people I justdidn't like because they were
just like, just whatever reason.
(35:41):
We found a way to still, youknow, go through and do our
assaults and all the differentstuff we have to do to do our
thing.
Sometimes it's just the way itis.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
You're not going to be friends with everyone and
that's okay, Exactly, and I youknow it's funny in my business
I've really come to realize that, look, I joke that I'm too old
to be all things to all peopleand maybe we're not the right
fit to work together, and thatis completely okay.
I will try to help you findsomeone else.
I recognize now, you know,there's a real point of maturity
, especially as an entrepreneur,when you're no longer chasing
(36:11):
every client and every dollar.
And it's tough sometimes ifyou're starting out or if you
know business is slow and youfeel like you need to do certain
things that aren't comfortable,and sometimes things are
uncomfortable, but there arecertainly times where you
realize, okay, wait a second,this is not where I should be,
what I should be doing, andthere's a real maturity to that.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
I completely agree with you.
It's the ability to recognizethat and know that's coming.
And again, if we're going totie this back to stories, if
we're, often we'll be like, isthis really where I want to be?
And we'll look back at asituation or multiple situations
and retell that story toourselves and be like, okay,
this is, this is not what I wantto do, this is not the path I
want to be on, this is not thething I want to have happen.
(36:56):
And we figured out, we make adecision and that's okay.
No judgment on how what thatdecision might be.
You know, I do feel that it'simportant and the spirit of
talking about storytelling andhow connections are made and how
we are able to do that together.
It's important for people tounderstand how you and I got
together.
Somewhere along the way, I wason social media and I was
(37:16):
looking at, scrolling around,looking for guests, guests, and
I happened to come across avideo that you had made and it
was telling your story about howyou got there and it was Sean
it.
For me, it was perfect.
It was just perfect in in whatthe story was, the message that
you were coming across, how youdid the video.
(37:37):
There was a little bit oflightheartedness in it, a little
bit of seriousness I had.
There was a, it seemed.
My impression was and I'm happyto say that I feel I was right
it was the true Sean coming outin this video and that that drew
me in.
I was like I must talk to thisman, I must record them.
I'm sorry it took two years forus to get to this point, but we
(37:57):
we're here and those thingsmatter.
Our stories draws each other into really build a foundation, a
true solid foundation.
Do you have any thoughts onthat at all.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
Oh, first of all, you're very kind.
I was talking about the videoactually earlier today, so I had
done that.
I believe in I want to say 2022with a local video production
company that I do a lot of workwith and I'm very proud of it.
It went very smoothly to me.
It really was a great intropiece to my business because
it's about 90 seconds long.
(38:30):
It's sort of an infomercial, awalk and talk.
It was shot very well.
I take no credit for that.
I give them full credit.
I wrote the script, but I givethem full credit.
Give them full credit.
I wrote the script, but I givethem full credit.
And it really kind of shows offwho I am, both by telling my
story and by showing mypersonality, as you said, in 90
seconds.
So in 90 seconds you really geta sense of, hey, I want to talk
(38:52):
to this guy, I want to workwith this guy, or this is not my
kind of guy, and both are okay,both are completely okay
responses I'm not offended bythe latter and maybe you realize
oh, that's not someone who I'dwant to do business with.
That's fine, that's fine.
I wish you good luck in findingthe right person for you, but I
like that.
I am very much.
I really came into my businesswith a shred of ego.
(39:15):
I checked my ego at the door.
I never had the lawyer's egoego at the door.
I never had the lawyer's ego.
Thank goodness I had thewriter's ego, which is I don't
care what you pay me, but myname stays on everything.
And I realized that that's alousy way to make a living.
And so I'm a ghost.
I'm a ghost writer.
I stay in the shadows.
I am there, look, I know whatI'm doing.
(39:35):
I'm good at what I do.
I'm there to offer the bestadvice that I can and give a
different perspective, et cetera, et cetera.
But ultimately I'm there tohelp you achieve your goals and
you know your goals.
At the end of the day, myclients own the material.
The material is theirs.
So I'm there to be me and I'mthere to sort of help as much as
(39:56):
I possibly can, and I'm gladthat you know was something that
you saw and thankfully I'vebeen able to help a whole lot of
people over the last five and ahalf years and I'm grateful for
every single one.
I don't take a single clientfor granted.
It's really a blessedopportunity that I have to be
able to do what I do.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
I believe that I would love to, some way down the
road, find a way to work withyou on something I don't know.
I'd love to experience thatwith you.
That would be fantastic, andalthough I won't have the
opportunity right now, I wouldlike to shift a little bit.
I think we've talked a lotabout the power of stories.
If people want to reach out toyou, if they want to know more,
they want to work with you, howmight they do that?
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Yeah, so I'm all over the internet.
It's kind of where I make myliving, so the business is
called the Right Stuff AgencyW-R-I-T-E.
It's a little pun, so thewebsite is therightstuffagency,
not com agency.
It could be anything.
Today I am at Sean S-H-A-U-N attherightstuffagency Instagram.
(40:57):
The Right Stuff Agency.
Linkedin.
Facebook.
I'm all over.
The Right Stuff Agency.
Linkedin.
Facebook.
I'm all over.
The Right Stuff Agency.
My LinkedIn my personal alsopublishes a fair bit if you want
to find me as Sean Bernstein.
And lastly, the last pitch I'llmake is that I have my own
podcast.
So when you're tired oflistening to Trench Leadership,
you need a break from Simon.
Check out Branding and theBeast.
Four words Branding and theBeast.
(41:20):
I say I play branding and mycolleague Alicia plays the beast
.
She is a phenomenal brandstrategist and graphic designer
out of currently West Virginia.
Which state is she in?
Yeah, I believe so.
No, she's in Virginia, forgiveme.
She's a very dear friend and wehave two guests per episode
(41:42):
talking about different aspectsof branding and marketing and
storytelling visually and words,and it's a really fun show.
I'm quite proud of it.
So, by all means, check us out.
We're on your podcast platformsand YouTube.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Oh, that's fantastic.
Well, of course, there will belinks to all the ways to connect
to you on inside our show notes.
I promise I'll have a link tothe video as well and to your
podcast.
I'm so happy to hear thatyou're doing that.
I will be going to listen tothat when I'm driving home later
tonight.
Well listen, sean.
This has been fantastic andunfortunately, like all good
things, this must come to an end.
I would like to say thank youvery much for your patience and
(42:21):
waiting me out until I was readyto get back to doing this wild
thing that we do calledpodcasting.
Thank you so, so much, and I'mlooking forward to having you
back as a guest very soon.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
Fantastic.
Thanks, Simon.
I appreciate it.
It was worth the wait.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
It sure was.
Thanks, all right.
Well, that's a wrap from thefront, and in this episode we
got to talk to Sean Bernstein,another fellow Canadian, also in
Ontario, canada, and what apleasure it was.
We shared stories, which is thewhole point of this episode to
talk about the power of storiesand how leaders can use those
(42:56):
stories to build teamwork andtrust and all the different
community stuff that I love totalk about, and it's all about
being people I'll try that againand it's all about people being
heard and understanding theneed and the value of telling
stories to bring people in, tocreate those connections that
matter so much for all of us asleaders.
(43:17):
And Sean also talked about thethree main points of a story to
get to know someone, to get tolike someone and get to trust
someone.
That's it.
That's what we need to do, andyou don't even need to like that
person, but what you do need todo is you need to be able to
build that trust, and that'swhat stories do.
Thanks for tuning in andremember leadership without
passion limits the depth of yourvision.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Be sure to join us next week with your host, simon
Cardinal, for another episode ofTrench Leadership, a podcast
from the front Produced by.
It's a Legit Business Musicprovided by Ashimal of Music.
Never miss an episode byfollowing us wherever you get
your podcasts.
While you're there, pleaseconsider leaving us a review and
(44:03):
rating Hint we love five starsand let us know what topics you
would like to hear about.
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