S01E07 - Leading Small Teams featuring Brandon Maloney (Part 1 of 3) - Trench Leadership: A Podcast From the Front

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Simon Kardynal (00:05):
I would like to begin this episode by
acknowledging that I am locatedin Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, and
I am privileged and honored tolive in learn on the unceded
unsurrendered territory of theAnishaabeg Algonquin Nation.

The Narrator (00:19):
Hello, you're listening to Trench Leadership:
A Podcast From the Front,produced by iglen studios, a
show for emerging leaders fromall professions, to hear from
other leaders who have led fromthe front, made the mistakes,
had the triumphs and are stilllearning along the way. And now,

(00:40):
here's your host, SimonKardynal.

Hi, everyone, and welcome to part one of a
special three part mini series.
In this episode, we'll betalking with Brandon Maloney,
the founder and operator ofSketchs Ink Custom Paint and
Hydrographics, a local companyhere in Canada's National
Capital, Ottawa, Ontario. Inthis episode, we'll be
discussing his take on how to bea successful emerging leader
within small teams by talkingabout his successes, his

(01:06):
failures, and borrowing hisleadership tools that allows all
of us to be the best leadersthat we want to be. And then,
and here's the really cool part.
In the very next episode, I'llbe talking to Brandon's
employees, where we'll have afrank and honest talk about
Brandon's leadership styles, hiswins and his losses, and how

(01:29):
effective his leadership is fromthe eyes of those who receive
it. In the third and finalepisode in this miniseries,
we'll be back with the entiresketches gang to dive in even
deeper hearing from everyoneafter they've had some time to
really think about what we'vetalked about what they've
learned and what we can use tokeep moving forward to help
other leaders. Okay, enough ofmy voice. Let's get going.

(01:54):
Okay, all right. Well, listen,Brandon, I just want to say
thanks for entertaining me andbe putting up with me and
talking about getting ready todo a podcast. And I especially
love the fact that we're goingto be doing this two part
series. That's incredible. Youknow, I just, it was
interesting. When you and I werechatting, we were talking about,
you know, what do we what do weeven want to do a podcast and
what do we want to talk aboutfor leadership and in my head,

(02:17):
I'd come here to use SketchsInc. to you know, pitch the idea
of maybe doing a two partseries, one where you and I
talk. And then another one whereI get to sit down and we
basically slam you with the withall of your employees. And then,
but you beat me to the punch,and I think that says something
about who you are, and it sayssomething about the environment

(02:39):
that you've created here andthat just made me want to make
this episode with you even moreand learn about your leadership
styles, your hear about yoursuccesses, hear about your
failures, and how all of thathas really influenced you to
make the team that you'vecreated here with everyone. So
but before we get into that,what I was kinda hoping we could

(02:59):
do is I'd like to hear a littlebit about yourself, you know,
tell me about you and how yougot to this point of this.

Brandon Maloney (03:07):
Well, I'm 35 years old as of today. Happy
birthday. Yeah, so I guess myentrepreneurial, my path down,
entrepreneurship really startedwhen I was in high school. You
know, as, as high school is,it's, it's a time of your life

(03:32):
where you're supposed to searchfor what you're going to be
doing for the rest of your life.
I had no idea what I wanted todo. At that point, I was always,
I was always drawing, I wasalways doing artistic stuff, and
right around 2000, 2003 which iswhen I was in high school,

(03:52):
Orange County Choppers, allthese kind of customizing shows
came on to Discovery Channel andother channels like that, and
for the first time in my life, Isaw people who were unapologetic
of who they are, they you know,it's kind of very forward very

(04:14):
brash, this is who I am acceptedor get out, and they were making
money, they were making a livingat doing what they wanted to do,
not what their parents told themto do, or society told them to
do. Up until that point, youknow, getting advice from a lot

(04:34):
of different people in my life,you know, whether it be family
or friends or whatnot. Becausewe live in Ottawa, it's a
government town. So obviously,their first instinct to instinct
to tell you is to get a securejob, go to the government, get a
pension, work your for 35 years,retire, picket fence, family,
all that kind of stuff. That tome at that point in my life and

(04:59):
even up until now, that justseemed like it just wasn't me.
It wasn't who I am. And, I knewthat I could always get a job
later. I'm a skilled person, I'msmart, I'm intelligent, finding
a job finding employment wouldnot be difficult for me. But not
taking a chance at doingsomething for myself, was almost

(05:23):
worse than that. So that'sreally where I, you know, seeing
these people who were succeedingat what I wanted to do, really
kind of got me down the path ofwhy want to be an entrepreneur
for that reason, so I can makemy own money, I can make my own
hours I can... my livelihood isnot determined by somebody else.

(05:43):
It's not, oh, you can't have twoweeks off because you have to
work so well, you know, I workreally hard, why shouldn't I?
Right? So being kind of thepilot of your own ship, and
having that direction to do whatyou want with your life really
was what got me down this path.

(06:07):
I knew at that time, I didn'treally know what I wanted to do.
I just knew thatentrepreneurship was what I
wanted to get into. So, at thattime, I was working at a
sporting goods store. I was 1314, 15. Again, going to high
school. And instead of going toschool, which I hated school, as

(06:30):
most entrepreneurs do. You know,I thought why not get on the job
experience, why not get paid tolearn at the same time. I knew
the direction I wanted to do Ijust needed the the background
knowledge, the how to orderinventory, how to work with
employees, hiring, firing, so Iworked my way all the way up
through to store manager andthat was kind of my graduation

(06:52):
as you will. I moved back toOttawa, a friend of mine who
knew I was doing you know,artwork and airbrush work and
stuff like that kind of on theside, my dad's shed. She asked
me, she said, you know, are youstill looking to get into
customization? I said,Absolutely. I just don't have
anywhere to do it that's set upfor me. So, she brought me in

(07:14):
to, to see, ummm, one of the, mylast basically employer that I
ever had and said, "You know,this guy's really talented. He
wants to get into airbrushwork." At the time, he was just
doing regular bodywork. He'slike I want to get into
customization. I ended upspending, I was like, great,

(07:35):
this is this is what I want todo. This is my kind of foot in
the door. So for four years, Ilearned the trade of
customizing, prepping tanks,prepping fenders. Unfortunately,
I never got to pick up anairbrush. I never got to do any
customization, it was alwaysfixing a fender, fixing a
bumper, and you know, it was inthe industry, but it wasn't what
I wanted to do. So, kind of ahappy accident, he sent me to

(08:04):
Toronto to... on an errand, andon my way back, I actually
stopped to a car show, and inthis car show, there was a
gentleman who had a booth and hehad to stand and he was
displaying hydrographics andI've never seen 100 graphics
before I knew it wasn'tairbrushing, I knew it wasn't
vinyl, I knew it wasn't paint.
So, we got to talking and hekind of showed me everything

(08:27):
that was involved in it and as Ido, I always think big. So, he
was showing me car parts but Iwas thinking of industrial, I
was thinking production, I wasthinking big. So, after meeting
him in the four-hour drive homeoriginally I was going to
present that to my current bossand say this is something we
really should do, this isrevolutionary. nobody's doing

(08:47):
this on auto right now.... andin that four-hour drive, I
basically convinced myself to doit for myself. I said, "Well,
serendipitous moment." You know,what are the chances kind of
thing and I just kind of ranwith it from there it took me
six months to write my businessplan and of February 13, 2014 is
when we got the keys to SevenCleopatra, so.

There's so much in there. I've got so many
different things rolling aroundin my mind.

I rambled a little bit.

No, no, it wasn't it was, just it was a
lot. It was important. I'mcurious, like, Did you just was
it just Brandon and Sketchs Ink?
Did you come in on board with ateam right away?

No, So..., I'm a big believer of say yes,
figure it out later, so for me,this was my opportunity, this
was my way of doing what I sawon television in 2003. This was
my way of doing that, or beingable to do that. Originally, you

(09:49):
know, obviously as you writeyour business plan, you're at 30
to 40 to 82 pages. And you startgoing to the banks and said this
is what I want to do. Obviouslybanks are very well, "How do you
know this is gonna work and howdo you know this is", etc, etc.
So, I basically got shut downfrom from all the banks. I

(10:09):
presented it to my parents and Isaid, "This is what I want to
do, I don't know how I'm goingto do it, this is what I want to
do. This is my career choice."And very reluctantly, because
they're very conservative inagain, "Get a good job, play it
safe",, etc, etc. So, long storyshort, they, they remortgaged

(10:30):
their house, gave me a loan, tostart the business and I
basically hit the groundrunning, I had to learn how to
do accounting, I had to learnhow to, you know, all the ins

The stumbles are a big part of it, I think, I
and outs of running a business,taxes, income taxes,
advertising, literally wearingall the hats all at once, I had
a gentleman who was working withme there who I essentially told
them what I want to do, hewanted to come on board. So for
the first, I'd say at least ayear and a half, two years, it

(11:04):
was just the two of us in here.
And then slowly, more and morepeople wanted to come on board.
I only, I haven't hired anybdy through any type
of advertisement, I think excpt for Jeremy. But yeah, for
he longest time, it was justme bootstrapping and trying
to figure stuff out, stumblng obviously on the way but as
ny reahope I believe that maybe the

(11:27):
better way to word that thatthose stumbles in a lot of cases
are more powerful and more, morelife changing in how you're
going to view just whatever itis you want to do. You said it
was a happy accident, you justwent to a car show not expecting
that and really, that was apivotal moment. So I'm curious,
though, as as you were movingalong, and you said you knew

(11:48):
this was not you what you wantedto do? Was there any any? Did
you have any one who was aninfluence for you that feel like
this is the person I want to gotowards. You referenced OCC and
you know, the the Teutles,right? I watched that show I get
it right? Were you have any ofthose types of influences said
okay, this is the type of thingI want to do. And but I would
ask that you look at that, froma leadership perspective.

I wouldn't say there was any one particular
person who I wanted to emulateor wanted to model my leadership
skills after. I think it was allessentially based my framework,
if you will, would be myexperiences as an employee that
really got me thinking of theperson and the manager and the

(12:34):
business owner that I want it tobe it was it was less, less
influential of this is what youshould do versus this is what
you should not do.

Okay.

I knew what type of leader I didn't want to
be because I had all thosebosses. "Do this, or else!" kind
of thing that never floated withme. I always, I have a heavy
heart towards people who gettreated like that and because I
was treated like that throughhigh school, bullying, all that
kind of stuff. And that I thinkhad a bigger impact on my

(13:11):
leadership skills now, versusany one individual saying, Okay,
"he's who I want to follow. He'swho I want to emulate?"

Are you the leader you want to be?

It's a moving target. Everybody has their good
days and their bad days. I thinkI'm pretty good at moderating my
mood to not take it out oninnocent bystanders being my my
employees. Yeah, I guess I whatI would say is that everybody,

(13:45):
you have to be always consciousof how you you act and how you
react. So, you know, lookingback on past decisions that I've
made, and said, I'm definitelynot going to do that, again,
because this is what this wasthe outcome of me reacting in
such a manner. I'm going to tryit this way. And then you try it
this way. And okay, that workedreally well. And then you try it

(14:07):
again, like, okay, that alsoworked really well and you just
keep going and you you find,okay, well, this doesn't work,
this does work. This type ofperson reacts this way, this
type of person reacts this wayand it's, you have to be
consciously in tune with youremployees and what their needs
are and what they're respondingto how you're, you know, guiding

(14:28):
them I guess.

Oh, absolutely.
A big part of any, anyleadership, leaders role is to
understand the people that theywork with and understand how
what they're going on. Remember,when I was teaching basic
training, that was probably oneof the largest leadership
moments that I had on a dailybasis, because every day I would
go into work, and the recruitswould, I would have to adjust my
leadership style to their crewbased on the time of day, what

(14:51):
they were doing, how they werefeeling, you know, what was
happening, had they had lunch,all, everything had to be taken
into account and all of thosedecisions are happening in
seconds. It's not a consciousthought. And that's a challenge.
So, when I was asking, you know,do you have something that you
look towards? It sounds morelike that you took the best of
what you saw.

Yeah.

..paid attention to what you didn't like and
said, I'm not going to be that.
And then that turned that intothe Brandon style of leadership.

Yeah, I think, I think there needs to be more
of that going around. So,obviously, today's day and age
we're in very, everybody hasvery polarizing opinions. And I
think everybody needs to kind oftake a step back and pick and
choose what parts of certainpeople they want to emulate. So,

(15:39):
hot topic nowadays, or maybe notso now, but it was Donald Trump.
It, you're either for him oryou're against them, there's no
in between and I find I get intoa lot of arguments with people
because I can, I can objectivelysee both sides. There's certain
things that I dislike about theman, there's certain things that
I'm like, Okay, well, I don'tlike him as a person. But he did

(16:03):
make a good point. So... havingthat and being tactile like
that, and how you're going totreat people and how you want to
be treated as a person is veryimportant. I think there needs
to be more of that going on.

You brought to the point of how you want to be
treated as a person and one ofthe main reasons that one of the
driving factors, maybe a betterway to word it, was about how we
ended up sitting here was I waslooking at your Instagram
accounts, and I saw that youguys had organized Friday
afternoon lunches. And it's,that struck me that was a big
thing for me, because I reallybelieve quite often, leadership,

(16:39):
being a good solid leader,understanding your people is
recognizing that doesn't alwaysneed to be a big giant, over the
top, display or show of lookingme in the leader, right? And the
fact that, you know, you guysorganize Friday lunches, and
sometimes you pay for them forthe guys, that's huge. That says
something about your leadershipstyle to understand that it,
that little gesture is the thingthat's going to keep that bond

(17:01):
together.

Yeah, absolutely.

I'm just curious, you know, cuz you would
say he didn't do any real formaltype of job searches or whatnot.
With the exception of Jeremy,he's doing a great job, by the
way. You know, like, what's theturnover rate? Do, do you find?
have you kept most of the peopleas a standard type of thing?

I've I've only had to let go two people in six
years. And they were both forgood. I don't think good
reasons. But reasons that werejustified.

Another episode reason?

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, for me, I think, my, I
mean, my employees might tellyou differently, but in my
opinion, I think my biggestvulnerability and my biggest
asset is being transparent.
Being transparent with my guysabout my own feelings about

(17:55):
"Hey, man, you know, we're,we're in a really tight spot, we
need to make some money,everybody needs to step up." And
just being open being, I don'tthink going through, going
through your employment record.

(18:15):
A lot of people can say like,yeah, my boss opened up to me
and yeah, he cried on myshoulder because of this
happened and, you know, he wasopen to me when, you know, my
father passed away and he gaveme a couple days off without
even me asking, or whatever itis. That humanizing, humanizing
the leadership, I find, goes alot further when you do have to

(18:38):
ask for them to do somethingthat's difficult for when you do
have to... "Hey, man, I need youto stay. I know, I told you that
I can't pay this week. Or canyou stay? We really need this
now? Yep, no problem". But, youwouldn't, I wouldn't have
gotten, I feel at least Iwouldn't have gotten that
positive response, had I notbeen open with them and let them
be open with me. I think, I wasactually thinking before we

(19:01):
started this, I think everybodyin here has cried in front of
everybody at least once, andwe're all dudes and we're all in
our 20s. So, it's like, that'srare. You know what I mean?
Like, good, bad, or indifferent?
I personally think that's anasset, because... at the end of
the day, you spend, how manyhours? How many, the highest
percentage of your life working?

(19:23):
So, if you can't, if you can'tenjoy your, your job, and if
you're dreading it every day,well, that's a large part of
your life that you'reeffectively wasting and not
enjoying.

Well, absolutely you know, and you talked about
communication, the need tocommunicate, and that's, I mean,
everyone, every leadershippodcast will talk about at some
point in time, the need tocommunicate and you definitely
as the person in charge, youhave to talk to your people and
you have to talk down but not ina derogatory sense and I'm
talking about the flow ofinformation about making sure it

(19:52):
gets around. You know, that'svaluable and when you're honest
with them, and you're genuinethat's going to build that
loyalty, that loyalty, thattactical loyalty that you can't
consciously try and makebecause.... people can smell
bullshit from 10 miles away.
They know when you're trying toblow smoke up their ass, right.
And it's frustrating, you know,if you're just trying to do your

(20:13):
job, and the guy's like, "Hey,good job, buds" Excellent. You
don't need, you don't need to berapping on the window with the
paint shops and two thumbs up,they know they're doing a good
job, everyone here is an expert.
So, but to take that time to getto talk to them and really get
to know them. That's huge. So,you know, when we're talking to
emerging leaders, in thetoolbox, be genuine with people,

(20:35):
you can have a shitty day youcan have an important day you
can have, you know, maybebusiness isn't going so well.
But, but just be genuine, andthat is what will keep that
loyalty so when you need to havethe difficult talks, it's not as

And it's a two way street. I mean, for me, I
difficult.
feel like, yes, there isobviously a higher hierarchy of
seniority.... to an extent. Buthere at Sketchs Inc. everybody's
opinion matters, regardless ofwhether you're a CEO, CFO, COO,
or you're the grunt who'ssanding something. I'm always,

(21:13):
first and foremost, when we needto change something or we need
to pivot or we need to dosomething. I sit everybody down
and be like, hey, it's not dothis, this is the way that it's
going to be suffer through it orget it. It's okay, guys, this is
the problem. This is what we'rehaving to deal with. here's,
here's a scenario. Here's wherewe are financially, here's where

(21:33):
we are, you know, in terms ofquarters, or whatever. What do
you guys think? What do youthink we should do? What do you
what are your thoughts and youryour inputs? A lot of the times,
I'm not the one who's coming upwith the good ideas. And I'm not
ashamed to say that at all, Ihire very intelligent people. I

(21:54):
hire on attitude, not ability. Ican teach somebody to sand a
fender, I can teach somebody topaint a car, I can teach
somebody to pinstripe. I can'tteach someone to care, I can't
teach somebody to want to do aperfect job every time. I can't
teach somebody to want to comein 15 minutes early, because
they know that something's gotto go in the booth and get it

(22:15):
set up and get it ready. Youcan't teach that, it's, it's who
that person is, so you may bethe best painter in the world
but if you're an asshole, you'renot going to work here, I don't
care. I'll teach somebody to bethe best painter in the world,
because of their character,because of who they are as a
person as a human being, notwhat they're doing.

That's the difference between the technical
skill set and the personal skillset are two entirely different
things and sometimes you justcan't blend them together in
that that's just the way it issometimes being the boss means
people need to go away. Yeah. Soyou know, you talked about....
you not coming up with all thegreat ideas all the time and
stuff like that. And I thinkthat's a really important thing

(22:57):
to talk to people about. Justbecause we're in charge, some
people are in charge, there'ssometimes there's an
expectation, especially with newleaders, emerging leaders,
sometimes they put it onthemselves, they have this
impression that they need to bethe people that are always going
to have the ideas always beupfront, be the first one to
talk have the best, most commonsense idea. Well, that's
obviously not the case, that'sjust not realistic. So I think

(23:17):
the fact that you're willing toshow your team that, you know,
some humility in that, okay,right, now, let's all discuss
this, let's have the good ideas,let's get them out there, for
the betterment of the team.
That's huge in that buildsbuy-in, that builds loyalty that
builds, you know, the type ofteam cohesion that you can
build.
They're a part, they're a partof the structure, they're not

(23:39):
just upon that you they getmoved in certain places, and do
this and do this and do this.
There's no.... you know, you'regonna, you're gonna go farther
for somebody who you've spentthree years, two years with,
then you will for some newperson, say, "Hey, go do this,
you're like, well, Who the hellare you? Why are you telling me
to do this? Like, you're notgiving me any input? You're

(24:01):
just..." and half the time, thatperson is wrong anyways. So, if
you don't, you know, if you ifit's not a two way street, and
you're not allowing them to, tohave input to have their say,
yes, at the end of the day,somebody has to make a decision.
But that doesn't mean that youcan't be you can't have the
humility to say, "Well, what doyou think, Hey, you know, I do

(24:23):
sanding every day. And this iswhat I noticed. And if if
instead of putting the bondoover here, we put it over here,
I wouldn't have to walk as far."Okay, I can't see everything all
the time. Until unless somebodytells me but unless you have
that open dialogue in that openthat two way door, where they
can come to you with problemsand you can come to them with
problems. You would never knowthat because they would be like,

(24:45):
Well, I'm not gonna sayanything, because I'm always
going to be wrong and that's notwhat it's like here.
Well, and that's fantastic,because like I said earlier,
that's what builds that teamcohesion. Sometimes there has to
be some finger pointing saying,"go paint, go sand, go do that."
But, but that's also temperedwith an understanding that if
you're coming out and you'rebeing a directive boss, a

(25:05):
transactional leader versus atransformational one, there's a
reason behind that you because,and especially if you're not
giving the reason why becauseone of the things one of the
things that the common themesthat comes up in all of the
podcasts that I've beenrecording, is that in the
importance around why somethingis important, especially in this
information rich world and thegenerations we're in today, and

(25:27):
I'm not slamming oldergeneration versus new one,
that's not a debate. It's justthe reality of it is in the
world we're at now, informationis so easy to get at so if we
don't provide the why tosomething, people get upset
because they're just so used tohaving it whether or not they
even see it. So you're alreadydoing that, and that is
invaluable. So when we'retalking to the Emerging Leaders

(25:47):
out there, understand that thatwhy matters. And if you're not
the first person listening,sorry, not the first time
listening to this podcast, thewhy matters. And you'll hear it
all the time. And you're alreadydoing it. And that's that's
invaluable.

Yeah, I think, everybody, regardless of whether
you're the head painter, theCEO, whether you're social media
content creator, everybodylearns every single job or it,
maybe not learn by doing it, butthey need to know why we do
everything so that everybodytalks to the customer. It's not,

(26:23):
there's a figurehead at thefront end, this is all you do.
You talk to customers, nobodyelse talks to customers. People
come in all the time, they stillsee cool stuff outside all the
time, somebody is out for asmoke, "Hey, you work here, what
do you do all we do this, this,this and this." So, everybody
having being able to explain whywe do things to the customer is

(26:45):
also really important. And likeyou said, before, having that
buy-in and having having the whyit's not? Oh, you're just you're
just following orders, you'rejust No, I have to do it this
way. Because if I don't, thisand this and this will happen or
might not happen. And this isinevitably what will affect the
finished product, which is whatwe give to the customer. So

(27:07):
again, you know, saying sandthis tank was 600. whoever
you're telling is going to dothat with 600 but if he knows
why suddenly, that's this is avery important step, instead of
just this is the next direction.
Okay, I have to do this. Becauseif I don't do this, this way,
this will happen. And theninevitably, okay, well, why did

(27:27):
this happen? Oh, so and sodidn't do this. Now they know
why.

And that is invaluable. And it gets that buy
in that we just can't not haveit to have an effective
leadership team that you justneed that buy in. It's
incredible. I'm going to shiftgears a little bit. And I'm just
curious...... In what way....
how do I word this? With allyour leadership fails, and wins

(27:57):
we've all any one of us that hasbeen in positions of any type of
authority, we all look back andwe go, Okay, that was a win,
that was a fail. I'd like toknow what your one of your
biggest wins was, and what youlearned from it, and then, we'll
discuss the biggest, biggestfailure and what you learned
from that. Let's do the winfirst.

My biggest win would definitely be my
employees. And I'd say employeesas a whole. I think following my
gut, in that I hire based on theperson, not their ability, going

(28:40):
through the process and reallysticking to that belief, and
then being proven that I wascorrect, I would say is my best
event. Obviously, we have a lotof success, or we're gaining a
lot of success with our socialmedia and with what we do and
getting recognized. And that'sall great. I think that also
comes with a lot of hard work,but where, where I see my

(29:05):
biggest success is that everyemployee, at some point during
the month will come in on theirdays off and work in the shop,
whether it be on customer stuffor their own stuff or a project
together or Hey, we need to dothis together. Let's do this at
the shop because just theenvironment and the ability to

(29:26):
do things. But I've never workedat another location where the
employees want to go to work ontheir day off. Just because they
enjoy the the environment somuch. I think that's super rare.
And I think that is emulatedthrough the public of you know,

(29:48):
when they're when they're makingposts on social media, like
yeah, it's Sunday. I'm here atsix o'clock working on my Datsun
and working on this, working onthat. A lot of people see that
they're like, well, that's rare.
That's why are you at work on aSunday. Why aren't you at home
doing nothing? And dreadinggoing to work? It's like, No,
no, we actually enjoy what wedo. We actually enjoy the
environment, we enjoy ouremployees. We enjoy each other's
company so much that we'll goout on outings, we'll go out I

(30:12):
mean, not anymore. But you know,Sunday, Friday, Friday lunches,
like, that's enjoyable.
Everybody sticks around, youknow, a lot of times a lot of
places that I've worked at, it'sokay, it's lunch, and everybody
goes away, and then everybodycomes back, and then that's five
o'clock, as soon as it's 501.
Everybody's gone. Again,everyone scatters. Here half the
time, I can get them to go home,like, Hey, guys, like I got to

(30:35):
go home, like, let's, let's go,let's get out of here. But
everybody has a key. Everybody,you know, everybody in the shop
has a key and the first thing Isaid don't eat, don't lose it
and don't abuse it. Apart fromthat they can do as they please,
as long as they give me a headsup, hey, I'm going and just in
case something happens. Hey, I'mgoing in. I couldn't do this
yet.

Okay, let's, it's interesting. So, before we
started recording this, justbefore we started recording
this, we talked a lot about, youknow, a little, well, a lot. We,
you and I talked a bit about,you know how we both have some
some concerns about, you know,are we stepping up to the plate?
Are we being the leader we wantto be and we talked a little bit
of imposter syndrome we talkedabout the book, The Achilles

(31:19):
Syndrome, those types of things.
You've had a lot of success, youknow, and whatnot. Do you feel
that over the time, now thatyou've been gained this
experience as the leader andwhatnot, that that's gone away?
Has it gotten stronger? What areyou thinking about that?

It definitely hasn't gone away. But I will say
that that imposter syndrome isan internal thing and has
nothing to do with the successof the business, absolutely
nothing. And if you think itwill go away with the success of
your business, you're foolingyourself. And that's where a lot

(31:57):
of depression comes because yousay, I will be happy when this
happens, I will be happy when Iget to such and such a dollar
amount. For me, the impostersyndrome started a long time
ago, I always felt like I had tobe doing something so perfectly.

(32:18):
And if I didn't do it, Iwouldn't, I wouldn't get the
recognition, I wouldn't get thelove, I wouldn't get this from
certain people. So that I wasalways chasing that perfection,
I was always chasing that. Well,if I do it right this time,
maybe they'll be happy I'll doif I did this, this way or
achieved this success at thispoint in time. I'll finally feel

(32:41):
like I was enough. And that'sthat's a me thing. That's not a
that has nothing to do with thebusiness. A lot of people
associate the two. This hasnothing to do with the business.
It's this happened a long timeago. And unless you deal with
that, this will never be enough.
And that's something I'm alwaysstruggling with. And I'm still
struggling with. I'm going tocounseling for that specific
thing if, you know, you treatgreat success, and everyone's

(33:05):
like, "Man, you must be sopumped and like, yeah, it's
cool." And you just you kind oflike Yeah, but you're always
going on to the nextachievement. You know, when we
first started the business, andwe put the sign up. That was
like, "Hey, this is real now."

Yeah.

And I felt guilty because I literally stood
there and I felt nothing. And Iwas like I should feel
accomplished. I should feelamazed they should feel
something. And all I can thinkof is like, "Okay, check mark,
that's done." What else do wegot to do? And I just moved on
and I didn't sit and savourlike, yeah, this is actually
happening. So now in my, mycurrent position, I tried to

(33:45):
force myself to slow down andforce myself to be like, "Yeah,
this is rare. Yeah, you didreally create something out of
nothing. Yeah. Your employeesare really good guys." And I try
and take stock of that a littlebit more than I usually would
have in the past.

Well, you know, it's a really great point, you
brought up with that, in thatwhen when we're talking, you
know, to new leaders and theemerging leaders, there's quite
often, you know, as you said,there is this belief that when I
achieve this benchmark ofsuccess, I'm gonna believe in
myself, I think and then youtouched on it, and that is
probably pretty unlikely thatwe're ever going to be okay,

(34:22):
I'm, I fully believe in myselfright now, especially if we
start having any types ofdoubts. The doubts are normal,
and they're natural, and that'sokay. But the trick is, as we're
now in the positions ofleadership and team leaders, or
whatever it is that, that leadpainter, I don't know, whatever
it doesn't matter, isunderstanding that we see it and
we learn to deal with it andaccept the successes that we've

(34:45):
got and then move forward, keepgoing, do whatever it is we need
to do, as you've done right, youknow, it's like it's hard to see
that whatever we're doing isgoing to get to the point where
we're going to be able to justmagically have total faith in
ourselves. Cuz I experienced, Ithink most people that want to
do a good job as a leader havethat, because there's that sense

(35:06):
of pride, "Okay, I, you know, Iknow I'm about to be judged,
because I'm leading, I'm incharge. So I am going to be
judged for the decisions I'vemade." And how do we move
forward with that, but the thingthat I took from what you said
was to understand it, accept it,even embrace that lack of
confidence to a certain extent,and learn how to how we each of
us is going to deal with thatand be able to move forward with

(35:28):
that that's invaluable. No, it'sa great tool that you brought
up. And then you know, to evenopen that up to other leaders
and say, you know, this is, thisis the thing it happens, it
happens to all of us.

I think, I think that kind of touches on
two points, really the, it's,it's the slowing down or
recognizing, but it's also,again, the vulnerability aspect
with with your, with youremployees. In that, you know,
you can you can tell somebodythat, hey, I'm having a really

(36:00):
tough time with this. And, youknow, part of the book I'm
reading now Achilles Syndrome isthat everybody's embarrassed to
be seen learning. And it soundsso abstract, but if you think
about it, it's like, everybodywants to go from crawling to

(36:22):
being an athlete. But nobodywants to show the process,
because somehow you're lessthan. So, for example, like, you
know, it's, it's very rare tosee somebody on social media,
showing, you know, where theyare physically or whatever, and
actually showing the process, alot of times, they'll hide it,

(36:43):
and they'll hide away, and thensuddenly, yeah, here's this new
body of mine. They don't want toshow the vulnerability because
they think, Okay, well, youhaven't learned that skill yet.
So you're a newbie, like you'renot important. And I think there
needs to be a transition,especially with yourself as a
person, but also your employeesand saying, it's okay to learn.

(37:03):
It's okay to screw up. Everybodydoes it. But it's learning from
your screw ups. And taking thatlesson. And being okay with,
hey, I screwed up. But I learnedhow to do it properly this time.
That, to me is more importantthan learning the skill as
quickly as possible.

And that's one of the main topics that I would,
you know, we could probably takeout of this whole episode is
that as a leader, we're going tomake mistakes, and we're going
to learn from them, which Ithink is a great segue to ask
you, what is your biggestleadership fail? And what did
you learn from that? How did youhow did you grow from that?

Oh, Hello, there.
It's Glenn, the voiceoverartist, and if you're hearing
me, that means we're at themidpoint of this episode. Do
you have an idea for an episodethat you feel is vital for
emerging leaders, leave the ideain the comment section, and if
your topic is chosen, you willhave the opportunity to join us
as a co host during therecording session. So, drop us a

(38:02):
note, and let's talk. Thispodcast is made possible by
listeners like you, and if youfeel we've earned it, please
tell your friends and leave areview to help us grow our
following. And now, back to theshow.

..... my biggest leadership fail. I think
it was taking my owninsecurities out on my employees
in that I wasn't acknowledgingmy own failures as a leader,
entrepreneur, and I was onlyseeing the the poor results. And

(38:51):
because I can't do everythingother people are doing that. So,
they're usually the first personthat a lot of people take out
those frustrations on, it's justlike, Okay, well did this person
sand through this fender becausethey weren't paying attention?
Or is it because I didn't gothrough enough training? And a
lot of people, a lot of leadersI find they, you know, they say,

(39:17):
"Well, why did you cut throughthat fender? Don't do that
again." But they don't look backand say, "Am I the reason? Am I
the reason why he screwed up?"Yes. You know, inevitably he was
the one who did the work. Butare you really blaming him or
are you blame yourself for nottraining him properly. And I

(39:38):
think that's where a lot of badturnover rate happens is
because, you know, the theemployee is so well intentioned,
they want to do a good job theywant to perform they want to do
well for for the people who arehigher up. But if you don't give
them the tools, if you don'tgive them the training, they're
always going to fail. Sosuddenly now their self-worth is
terrible because you didn'ttrain them properly. So, I think

(40:01):
in the early days, I didn'trecognize that soon enough. And
I, you know, I wanted to doeverything myself I wanted to
do. So, I set up the backroomand I did this. And I did this.
And, you know, my employeeswould come to me and they say,
"Well, it's not really workinglike it's not working, because
you're not working hard enough."But I didn't conceptualize and

(40:21):
didn't realize that no, no, no.
They're trying to tell you howto fix it, because they want to
be there for you. They want tosee you succeed. So, not
recognizing my own faults andtaking it out on my employees. I
said, I think that's would be myworst.

No, that's, that's great. I appreciate that.
So the other side of that, howhave you grown from that? How
have you learned with that? Howhas it made you a better leader?
Now that you see it?

Yeah, I think for me, it's, it's, again, going
back to transparency. It'sadmitting as a leader that you
don't know, you don't know theanswer. You don't know how to
get us out of the situation.
Again, just being beingcompletely being an actual human
being versus just a dictator toyour employees. Say, you know,
I'm, "I'm just a human being Imake mistakes, I screw up. How

(41:11):
do you think we should fixthis?" and let them educate you?
Because a lot of time they havebetter ideas than you
do.........

......When you know, when we're talking about
from the perspective of how canwe help? How can you and I,
through this episode, help anemerging leader, it's a common
theme that we've heard so far isto be honest, and be genuine and
admit that we make mistakes, andwe have our faults. So, I'm
curious, when you'reexperiencing this type of an
issue, because I'm quiteconfident that it hasn't

(41:44):
stopped, it can't.

No.

It's unlikely.
Yeah, exactly. Is there aphysical thing that you can see
or sense that when when in Ihave I had to hazard a guess
correct me if I'm wrong isgenerally in a stressful time?
Is there a physical way that youcan tell when you're making that
error? And how can we helpemerging leaders avoid that
going forward?

(42:09):
Truthfully, I think..... becauseI'm so transparent all the
time... and I'm, I'm veryusually calm, cool and collected
and because I'm that way with myteam and work that way, with
each other. A lot of the timesif I say something, and I don't

(42:31):
get the reaction that I normallydo, and they're like, that was
rude, or that was off putting orwhatever, I see their reaction,
I think, okay, is this am I inthat headspace again? And a lot
of the times, they'll confrontme with it? Because they see,
"Hey boss, like, are you okay?
Like, you don't seem okay. Like,or is Everything good? Like, do
you want to talk?" My team willcome to me and ask me if I want

(42:54):
to talk.
And that's, that's perfect.
That's, that says somethingabout the dynamic that you've
built within the shop is thateveryone can come to you and
Hey, are you okay? And, and thensee, and that might be the way
to go forward. If you're new, ifyou're a new leader, and
someone's coming to you, that'sprobably the first time just sit
back and think about what'sgoing on take stock Exactly. I
know myself, I'm very driven ongetting something done, I'm very

(43:20):
focused on getting the task donevery project oriented. And
that's okay, that's just who Iam. But the interesting part
with that is I like to use theterm quite often, I'll put the
blinders on, especially when Ihave a whole bunch of things
happening at the same time. AndI need to get the tasks done. So
I can focus on another thing,I'll put the blinders on and I
can't see outside of what I'mreally focused on. And then

(43:43):
quite often, I'll get told,"Hey, are you okay? Like what's
going on here?" Because I getthis laser focus. And it's funny
when you were saying, you know,you were using the example of
what they would say to you, youreyes squinted, your head kind of
tilted, tilted to the side. Andthose are physical ticks that
people will do when they'relike, not normal. So when we're
talking to leaders, how can youtell if you're stuck in that

(44:04):
type of a zone where you're sofocused on distressed owed or
whatever the issue may be, ifyou see people stop talking to
you for a second is squint theireyes head twist to the side,
it's good chance, you need tosit back and re evaluate what's
going on. Right.

And I think I think that needs to be a two-way
street. So, it's watching yourguys closely enough, that within
the first five minutes ofeverybody being here, I can tell
who's going to have a good dayand who's gonna have a bad day.
Because I'm so attentive on,and... I mean, as with anybody I

(44:41):
mean, somebody can get a textthat suddenly flips their world
upside down, and instantlythey're changed and it's being a
leader, and recognizing that,when, you know, maybe earlier in
the day, we're like, "Go, go,go, ww, like, you know, we got
to put the pedal down. We got toput the pedal down." Somebody
gets a text halfway through theday saying, you know, their

(45:02):
girlfriend's leaving him orwhatever. If you keep pounding
that drum, he's like, we gottago, we gotta go, he's gonna have
a mental breakdown by the end ofthe day. But, if you're in tune
enough with your guys, and viceversa, you're gonna to pick up
on little nuances that, youknow, he only does this when
he's depressed, or he only, youknow, bites back a little bit

(45:23):
when something's wrong, and ifyou're constantly looking at
your team and constantly feelingthe waters and seeing what's
going on, you'll recognize rightaway, okay, he's having a bad
day, I need to see how he'sdoing. "Do you need to go home?
Are you feeling okay?" And whenyou're that concerned, and that

(45:44):
concentrated with the well-beingof your employees, they're going
to turn that around and, andcome to you, when you're having
a bad day be like, "Boss, areyou okay? Like, do you wanna
take a drive? You know, go get acoffee, like we got stuff?" It's
happened multiple times witheverybody, at least once?

Oh, absolutely.
And... we talked about itearlier that that importance of
being genuine and being who youare, you know, there is a chain
of command and every businessthere has to be, someone has to
be in charge, that's just theway it's got to be. But, there's
a time to know when to be theperson in charge. And when to
have a heart, right? One of thethings that I've learned over
time, is that you can lead withyour heart and it doesn't make

(46:23):
you weak. Great, and it's tough.
And you know, especially in thedepending on the industry, Me,
Myself 26 years in the military,you know, especially starting in
the infantry, you don'tgenerally lead with your heart a
lot. You know, there's this, Ijoined in the mid-90s. That says
a lot. Yeah. And I would imaginein this business, this type of
business, is probably prettymacho, if I had to guess. Right?

(46:44):
So leading with your heart alot,not so much, right? But, you're
doing that, and what's amazingabout that, is you're getting
that buy in from the people.

Yeah. And that is so because it's rare. I
think personally, I thinkbecause it's true,

I agree.

Here's this, I don't know how to describe
myself.... here's this guy wholoves loud cars, he rides
motorcycles, and suddenly he'stelling me that, you know, he's
having a bad day, because thisand this, and this happened.
You, people pay attention tothat. It's, you know, somebody,
you know, sees Dwayne Johnson onTV, and he's this big macho guy.

(47:25):
And you'll flip through 90% oftime. But if you flip through,
and you see him crying, you'relike, That's not right. What's
happening here, and you're gonnawatch the entire clip, or the
entire, whatever Gold Coast orwhatever it is, because it's
rare. And I think that is partof the draw of Sketchs Ink as a
whole and people who come in andsay, you guys have a really good

(47:47):
environment here. I think it'sjust because we're so genuine.
And we're not putting on afacade. It's just like, yeah, we
cry, we bicker, we yell, wethrow things at each other. But
at the end of the day, we're allfriends, we're still friends,
you know, we can have a heatedargument. And two days later,
we're going out fishingtogether. It's because you're
genuine. It's because you're,"Hey, this is me, this is

(48:10):
everything," Y ou know, I'mgonna be vulnerable in front of
you, and you can be wrong infront of me. And, you know, I
think that dynamic goes waybeyond the employee employer
leadership relationship.

Absolutely, you know, and it's something that,
you know, I would hope for mostpeople is common sense. But it's
hard when people are brand newto a team leader, whether or not
you know, the day before they'rehaving drinks with the guys or
girls, or the you know, they'removed into a new job, and all of
a sudden, they're in chargequite like we talked about
earlier. Quite often, they feelthe need to have all those have
all the answers and be adifferent person because now

(48:46):
they're the boss and they needto be bossley. But just be who
you are, you know, if once youdo that, sometimes you may need
to make the tough calls, butthat's when you need to be "the
boss", but you can be who youcan be and still Garner that
perspective gain that muchquicker. And I think deeper
level as well.

Yeah, I mean, going into, say if you're a
leader and you're going into ateam that you don't know
anybody's whether you wereoutsourced or whatever. I think
the biggest thing is advice Iguess I would have for that type
of person is instead of comingin guns blazing, I need to
assert my authority and I needto make sure that they know I'm

(49:25):
in charge is having haveconversations with the people
you're leading at the end of theday, everybody's a human being.
What are you going through? WhatHow can I help you? I wouldn't,
I would never ask them to dosomething that I haven't already
done or that I don't expectmyself to do. So being open and
honest and asking people like,"You know, I see your I see

(49:49):
you're having a hard day What'swrong? What can I do for you?
Oh, I'm late on my rent. I'mthis and this and this. Okay, do
you need a couple 100 bucks Hereyou go." Suddenly, that small
gesture, big gesture, whateverit is that that employee
suddenly sees you as less of amore of a friend, but still, you
actually earn more respectbecause you see them as a human

(50:12):
being and not just your employeenumber 4568.

No, no. You're absolutely right, there's
something to be said for that.
You know.....it's important, itmatters. And to understand that,
just because we're in charge,someone has to be in charge.
So, someone's got to make thedecisions and whatnot, but you
don't have to sell who you are,change who you are, just because
you're now in charge. That'sfantastic. Well, I'm curious,
before we move into thelightning round, what type of,

(50:39):
piece, big piece of advice wouldyou have for a leader, like a
tangible piece of advice to helpthem get going as they're the
new leader?

Always lead with the carrot and only use the
stick as a last resort.

Okay, cool. I appreciate that. That's
excellent. Well, I mean, withthat, I think we're, this is a
great segueway to move into thelightning round.
As a leader, what do youconsider to be your greatest
strength?

My vulnerability.

Okay, excellent.
Question number two, cup halffull or cup half empty?

Cup with water in it.

That is the first time I've heard it that
way. I love that (Brandonlaughing). Question number
three, if you could askleadership advice from any
leader alive or dead? Who wouldit be? And what is the question?

Shit.

Yeah, (Simon laughing) .I get that I get that
common response. And it makes melaugh.

I don't know.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna honestlysay I don't know. Because.....
there's no one, like we talkedabout earlier. There's no one
person that I agree witheverything that they stand for
believe in and I take a lot ofwhat I find invaluable. So, I'm

(52:05):
going to pass on that question,because I actually don't know
how to answer.

I think you did answer that question, actually,
in an interesting way. Iappreciate that. That's
excellent. So question numberfour, in one word, describe your
feelings The first time you werein the role as the leader?

Scared.

Question number five. Last question, in one
minute, describe what youbelieve is the most important
idea or concept for a new leaderto consider as they take on
their role as the leader.

You owe your employees more than they owe
you. And what I mean by that is,when you're given the task of
guiding people through theiremployment, you, you know, or
you should know, with a relativecertainty on what is expected of

(53:13):
them. And if you take that forgranted, and you take that
situation, and you abuse it,that is, that person is going to
carry that for a very long time.
And I think that regardless ofwhether you're, most
importantly, if you're in aposition of authority,

(53:35):
you....you owe it to that personthat you're, that they're
looking to you for guidance,that you're going to take that
situation seriously, you're notgoing to take advantage of them.
And like your parents tell youwhen you borrow or something,
you should always leave it in abetter condition than when you

(53:55):
got it. And I think that is kindof where I try to guide my guys
as I want them to be betterhuman beings, inevitably when
they leave.

Fantastic.
That's it. That wasn't so bad. Idon't think.

Good, I guess.

I think that went very well. Well, I mean,
that's basically it for us. I'dlike to again, thank you for
taking the time on your birthdayto record this episode with me.
That's fantastic. You know, thisis the first of the two part
series. Up next, I will betalking to all of the guys in
your team. And we're gonna,we're gonna, grill Brandon a
little bit without you there.

That's ok, I'm, all for it. I'm genuine, I
genuinely want to know from thehorse's mouth if what I think is
actually true.

We're gonna find out we're gonna find out and I
can't wait for that. That'sgonna be fantastic. So over
this, over the span of this houror so, you know, you and I have
talked about basically the cruxof what I got out of this was
it's important to be genuine, bewho you are, everyone can
understand that someone has tobe in charge. But if you're
genuine, you will get the buy-inand the loyalty from your team
and you can't force that youhave to just be who you are, and

(55:09):
it will come. You just need totake a breath and go from there.
The other big thing that I heardfrom us, from you rather, is
that it, it's, it's difficult,it's gonna be tough. But if you
keep moving forward, you, youaccept the failures, you accept
the wins,

Be transparent about it.

Be transparent and learn from it. You will
succeed.

Yep, I agree.

Well, thank you very much for this. I really
appreciate the time with this.
This has been fantastic. I'vehad a really great episode, this
being my first face to face liveepisode, I hope it was going
quite well.

Yeah, I think it went really well.

And yeah, I had a great time with this. Thanks a
lot.

Awesome. Thank you.

Thank you. Have a great day.

Cheers, have a great day.

Well, that's a wrap from the front. In this
episode, the first in a specialthree part mini series, we
learned that emerging leadersdon't have to come out with guns
blaring. Rather, honesty andfostering a culture of mutual
respect is really the not sosecret sauce that will get you
the respect of your people. Innext week's episode, the second

(56:09):
portion of this special threepart miniseries, we're going to
hear from Brandon's employeeswho all happen to be millennials
and we're going to find out whatthey think are the most ideal
qualities for today's emergingleaders. We'll also find out if
Brandon is truly leading intohis leadership philosophies.
What he does well, and thethings that maybe aren't so
well. I don't know about you,but I can't wait. Thanks for

(56:32):
tuning in, and we'll see younext time.

Never miss an episode by following us on all
of your favorite feeds. Whileyou're there, please consider
leaving an episode review andlet us know what topics you
would like to hear about. Besure to join us next week with
your host Simon Kardynal foranother episode of Trench

Leadership (56:53):
A Podcast From the Front, produced by iglen studios
music provided by AshalaluevMusic.

All Episodes

S01E07 - Leading Small Teams featuring Brandon Maloney (Part 1 of 3)

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S01E07 - Leading Small Teams featuring Brandon Maloney (Part 1 of 3)