#48 - Drums, Dreams and Cultural Schemes: A Beatdown on Indigenous Conferences. - Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Aaron Brien (00:04):
loves you remember me remember me
yeah loves you oh yeahremember me

(00:52):
you actually know who showed whoknows who showed me that song?

Shandin Pete (00:56):
Who was it?

You'd never guessed so that round and some. You
would never guess who showed itto me

okay yeah, I can guess

John's the farm

Okay how did I haven't guessed I
wouldn't have guessed that yeah

see? Tonka

I first thought

No Yeah. Now for 49 and yeah I would say Tonko
probably

Yeah Man Can you hear this hold on a
second though all right, can youhear this no I forgot to share
the sound yeah rookie. Whata loser shares great good man

(01:58):
shares it's pretty easy he'sgonna do Oh I didn't know you
could click on mono or highfidelity I'm gonna do the high
fidelity now you can hear thatyeah let's see not this one not
this one is around denseAlex being recorded underwater

(03:19):
you round dance to Nair

that's a bad two man is playing again. Okay, it's
playing again.

Okay. We located beginning here comes right Are

(05:06):
you feeling it man feeling itlast got the eyes closed not
tight though. They're kind offlickering a bit you know that
lookWe ready Yeah, I think so I mean

(06:01):
yeah

we do we have not that's a cool tune do it is
that's a cool sound man thatsong. Yeah that actually like I
don't know what you got it butthat sounds like round and songs
that I want to sing. Yeah, likeyeah, I've always wanted to make
tunes like that you know yeah

yeah never could

come through it's repetitive yeah yeah and it's
but it's smooth you know andit's like yeah you got your your
hand drums are sound and bouncyhere should drop down and crack
it's got a crack to it.

Oh yeah that'll crack that sounds good and then

you got like you got six seven guys you know
maybe eight dudes that yeah cansing and blend good oh yeah I
know you started humming thattune it's cold outside and then
the guy next season oh yeah hekind of started somewhere pretty
soon for of your hot minute andthen the impatient singer which

(07:24):
is me usually goes sting startit doesn't learn it doesn't
bother to like learn it. It'slike just started but yeah, that
song that song was playing Icould picture a fairly cold
building not around dance butlike singing guys like your the

(07:48):
boys got together? Yeah. It's soit's there's snow on the ground,
but it's like that muddy kind ofsnow. It's not Oh, yeah.

Yeah,

it's yeah, it's

keep going. This quite poetic. You know?

Well, it conjured up quite a

bit phone conjured you read this long in my book of
poems by Aaron. So kind ofbuilding Well, they say it in
poetry voice. Let me get likelet's get mood. Okay, good.
Poetry voice

the sound the round dance. The sounds of a smooth
round and song feels the air ina cold wintry building on any
given native community in theNorth. The Rocky Mountain region

sounds like a pamphlet Come on, man. It turned
into a pamphlet.

I'm just saying okay, this is what I would say.
Okay, right. Around round dancetunes like that these those kind
of? Yeah. I wouldn't even saythey're like traditional random
songs. But they're almost theyremind me of nighttime. Yeah,
yeah, night. A song like thatreminds me of nighttime. It
reminds me of quasi traditionalpeople. Wow, you know what I

(09:40):
mean? Like, people on thefringes who just like to sing
tunes, and yeah, it doesn't rollwith that man. You got the guy
who shows up with one guy showsup with a hand drum and a
pillowcase. One guy shows upwith the hand drum in the rope
bag. Oh yeah. And then one guyshows up with forehand drums in

(10:03):
a in a made Pendleton. Ooh, bangpro level. Yeah. And then you
got you have seven hand drumsbut you only have four or five
sticks. So you always got thatone guy that can I make thick
real quick? Yeah.

Yeah, take a sock off. And

I kind of liked that sound of hand drums that is
a little more pinky and lesscardboard, you know? Yeah. I
kind of I've always kind ofliked that that tune in. So

you're talking about the remote remote drum
sound well,

but more natural.
To me is like to like, oh mygod, it's too much. You know?
You get five remotes. You can'teven hear the song. You know.

Celtic?

I remember the first time I seen remote drums.
When was the first time you sawremote drums?

Oh, man, I can't I don't remember the specific
date. But it must have been in.
Had to been in. Maybe early 90s.
Maybe mid 90s. Really?

You saw that long ago? Huh?

I think so. Remote control. Maybe I'm confusing the
era. So I No, no, no. Yeah, I'mon my era. I mean, 2000. The
2000s.

The early 2000s.
Yeah. So that's about when I seethem. And I remember that it was
Gabby Carell. You rememberGabby? Yeah. I

think that's who I started seeing.

That's the first person. The Remo and it was. He
had like a bag of them. Yeah.
Yeah. And, and at the time, Iwas like, Oh, that's pretty
cool. They sound good. But as Iget older, I don't know if I
like their sound, you know?

Yeah, the remote was there. I don't know. It's
it's you. You make a

pretty mean hand drum.

Well, yeah, I've been out of the game for the
decade, but it was the era ofmine, you know,

but But I liked the way you tied to drum though. Oh,

yeah. You pump out a few and then call it good.
Yeah, I

had that. horsehide one. Oh, yeah. You made man. I
was a dope sounding drum.

Yeah. Yeah, I still have that. I still have
that high. Enough to makeprobably one one more drum. I've
been holding on to it. So I hadto do that.

You know, and I used to hear these old guys say
the best sounding hand drums orhorsehide. And I would have to
agree, man, I have to agree.
Well, yeah. I gave that drumaway. You did? Yeah. A relative
of mine was celebrating his fiveyears of sobriety. Oh, yeah. And
during his sobriety, he taughthimself how to sing. Really,

(12:49):
Benny actually is a pretty goodsinger. And we were singing
together one day and and hesaid, Hey, man, today's five
years, he just happened to sayit. So when we got done singing,
I had that drum. And as I said,well here, man, I'll give you my
favorite Dre does the best job Iever had. Yeah, but

I swear you got to do DOMA got to

do it. Man. Got to do it. The moment called for and
who am I to deny the

moment you know?
That's right. That's right. Yougot to get a just,

I don't think I ever told anybody that now. I
never heard it. Now. 42 peopleknow it.

And I even forgot that. I made that horsehide
drum. I made that for you. Youbought it? Yeah, for 60 bucks.
Yeah, I think. I think I thinkyou may have Did you requested
or did I tell you I have ahorsehide? No,

you You told oh, you told me you had a horse
side. And I and I think I evensaid, Oh, the old guys used to
tell me. And I said I'll get onefrom you. And then you kind of
like we're like, Oh yeah, youknow, and I didn't, you know,
probably deep down. I probablydidn't think you were actually
going to make it

up 60 bucks.
That's 60 bucks. So you don'towe me

one. I bought two drums from you for that price.
Yeah. Yeah. So I bought thatfirst one, which I gave to my
son. Yeah. And then I still haveit. No, it's here. Yeah. So I
had a problem too, with peoplestealing my jobs. I had a hand

(14:31):
job stolen from me. And so Istarted painting the rim of my
drums blue.

Oh, that's why I did that as wondering that it
was some spiritual reason. Well,

I actually kind of so there's kind of a thing this
guy had a dream about me. Rightthat I took my hand drum. Yeah.
And I put it in ice. And then hein his dream, he said, Why are

(15:08):
you so why are you doing that?
And I told him something aboutto protect my singing or my
songs or something. Yeah, yeah.
But he said that drum was blue.
And I think if I remembercorrectly, he told me the whole
drum was blue. But um, so thenthis is all happening around the
same time as going to theselittle round dances and put all

(15:31):
your drums on the table and theyget some some walk away. So I
said, Wow, I'm gonna do that. Imean, I don't it was never
confirmed as like a thing to door, yeah. Authorize, but I did
it. You know, maybe I shouldn'thave I don't know.

Get a certificate.
You didn't get approval? Ididn't get approval, but get IRB
approval to but

I never lost the drum again.

Well, there you go. There you go. Well, you know
the song a while Okay. I've beenuploading these these audio
tapes.

To you YouTube. Go to YouTube guys. Yeah, some gold
on there. There is.

I got it. I got a whole stack here. So I'm still
going through but this one was,it was sort of a mystery. Some
of them are labeled, you know.
So you know exactly. You know,it's ki IO or Crowfeather
whatever. This one was justlabeled the bear child in it
said round dance. And that wasit. So I didn't. I didn't quite
know I did. Some little bit ofsearching around to figure out

(16:39):
maybe who this bear child mighthave been. Come to find out I
get a response back from guynamed by the name of crit, you
know, crit. Do you know thatname?

I don't know. But that sound the sound of the song
I kind of was thinking likeSaskatchewan, man. Well,

that's kind of what I thought too. But here, it
turns out, crit. I know himbecause he was friends grid. He
was a friend with my dad. Andwhen he was singing around with
us a bit when Stan was living inMissoula, we've kind of got
little practice sessions goingon. But yeah, anyway, he he he

(17:21):
messaged and said, Oh, yeah. Inshort, he said bear child was
the this group that they puttogether for the key IO Indian
club. They called themselvesbear child. I didn't ask them
why bear child or nothing likethat. But yeah, Pio Indian club.
So he said he has this picture.
He sends me this picture of thebear child singers. And it was
in 1979. And it included Troybull bear. Ron Ledoux. Mike

(17:48):
madman, Sean Chippewa crit heldas the guy that I know and Rod
broad. I know I know that thelast two just from from my dad
hanging out with those grid.

Man. I swear I know crit. You probably seen why I
would sit around with you guys alittle bit with when Stanley
Yeah, we're talking aboutStanley pretty paint. Yeah,

yeah. Yeah.
Anyway, I thought that was kindof neat to finally connect the
dots on one of these. Thesetapes, you know, and well, man.
They

sounded good. Yeah, that's the best student group
I've ever heard, man.

Yeah, and the rest of the tape. You got some good
tunes. They're singing some goodsongs on it. Yeah, so if you go
to YouTube, check it out. Ididn't It's in the list.
Fairchild singers. You'll seeexactly what I read you Yeah,
it's good one Taylor one that's

another good smooth song. I wish more songs are made
that way. Yeah, and I'm surethey are I'm sure you gotta go
up north to here round thatsongs like that are all dance
tunes.

Good ones the good one.

Young Scout are young. Yeah, young scouts young
scouts make Mark Long John andyou guys and I never really knew
them. I met Mark Long John oncebut man that sound like that
song. That song composing sound.
Oh, yeah.

Also figured out and other all these other songs
in our previous episodes, thosesongs I've been playing, you
know, and we've been trying tofigure out I finally made a
connection where those are fromand got the full details but I
reached out or reached out tosome folks and sent them you
know, to listen to it. So I gotI got the details on that. Which

(19:48):
is pretty good.

But also, ma'am,

but we're not here to talk about that, are we?
We're not

here to talk about songs. Now we you know what's
funny is For the people thathave talked to me about our
podcasts, that's yeah, that'sone of the things is they say
like, you guys should talk aboutmusic more. And they actually
have said, play the songslonger. Oh, really? Yeah,

I thought I was playing them too long at certain
points. I thought, wow, peoplemight get bored of this. I don't
know. I can extend it out, letthem

get bored and never get bored.

I mean, I'll put I can put a longer clip. It will

like, what's the difference? What's the
difference between 30 secondsand 45 seconds? You know,

now much and not much. Like if

it's a song that has starts in it play to starts.

I can do that.
Because I feel like that's

enough for people to learn the song. Yeah, yeah.
They want to learn a song. Ifit's an if it obviously if it's
appropriate. Well, we don't feellike we're playing songs that
are inappropriate. We're notdoing that. So I

don't think so.
Yeah.

So music to me is always a fun
topic. Because for one I don'tever claim to be an expert at
Yeah, Indian music, but I'm afan of it, man. Oh, yeah. Oh,
yeah. I feel like a lot ofpeople who do research on Native
people is often overlooked.

It is. It is. It is. I was, um, I was reading
this, and I just come across itjust maybe hours ago. I don't, I
don't know how or why. But it'sthis. It's an article written by
some dude, but an AMA Todd, ToddSwanson. But it's in this odd

(21:44):
sort of this off journal calledthe Journal of religious ethics
rule. It's sort of caught my eyebecause it says the weathered
character. And it says envy inresponse to the seasons in
Native American traditions. Idon't know it's kind of catches,

(22:06):
caught my eye, but I startedreading it. And it said
something here, I thought thatwas pretty cool about spoke
specifically about singing. Andif I could find it here, I'll
read it to you. So it's a goodone, man. I mean, it, I don't
know if it's good. It's itseemed the seem to be telling.

(22:28):
But anyway, he. So what this guydoes is he, he's trying to
figure out something about the,I don't know how, how Indians
think, you know, in relation tonon Indians, you know, I don't
think like, so it takes thesewritings by these indigenous

(22:49):
people. In particular, one fromColombia, from the highlands of
Colombia, you know, those peoplecan't remember how to pronounce
their, their, the name of theirpeople, but you know, they live
up in high in the mountains. Butthis guy was saying that the
goal of the moral life,according to this guy, is to

(23:13):
develop a character whose senseof timing responds perfectly to
the temporal movements of theforest. This gets the singing
here, but that's, that's hisfirst thing. So this guy was,
you know, he's not, he's not aneducated dude. You know, nobody
in that time was, you know, theygo to school, he just lives like

(23:36):
a traditional person. And sowhen he's talking about these
things, that's what he says.
Said, Okay, moral life, todevelop a great character. The
character responds to perfectlyto the, the, the environment,
essentially, is what he'ssaying. So then he relates bad
timing, like, like, bad timing,so like out of sync out of sync

(24:03):
with the environment, as that isrelated to envy and gluttony. So
essentially, he's saying you'reyou do, you're doing something
in a space, and in a time thatbelongs to someone else. That's
what Gluttony is. And that'swhat he thought envy was that

(24:24):
that kind of thing? And then thesinging part. Let me see here.
Where's the set? Yeah, he says,singing I can't find it fast
enough, but I'll find here.
Let's see. Where did he say it?

(24:44):
Where's that? Oh, yeah. Okay, sohe's talking about some other
person. Someone from what dothey call them nowadays to be
called? Or they used to callthemselves or somebody who's
come Papago. You know thatPapago? probably weren't like

(25:07):
were out in the southwest. Oh,Tona don't know Odom's. Yeah. So
lady from there is also talksabout you butchered that. I did
i I'm sorry. I'm just notregional. Right? My non regional
diction is not very good.
Anyway, I see what it is. And Ican't find this man. I don't

(25:30):
know where it's at. Well, whatwas he going to say? Anyway? I
just totally cut you off. Yeah,you did. Okay, keep going. But
it's too late now. Okay. Here itis. Yes. So this is related to
what I said. So on the surface,he says, The singing and dancing

(25:51):
in the face of this wordfinitude, which is like a
boundary and on the face of someboundary seems to have something
in common with the existentialethics of courage.
I don't know.
Even define one, this isn't theone I was looking for.

You're in the weeds now.

It's a way in the weeds. Bring me back. Bring me
back. I'm weighing the weeds.

I don't know what to tell you know how to get out
of this. Because, you know,here's the problem is I'm
interested in what Yeah, and soyou just added this whole part
out.

I didn't come prepared. Okay, okay. Wait, I
think I found it. See the quietmoral? I don't know. But this is
what I do know, kind of what hesaid what he summarizes and what
you're saying is that notexactly what you just said non
he's saying essentially nonnatives, especially researchers,

(27:02):
anthropologists underestimatewhat's expressed in song. That's
essentially what he's saying.
Isn't it just seems like apractice or fulfillment of a
custom. It's actually theexpression of morality whenever
somebody is singing that's kindof what he's saying. And I think

(27:22):
that's somewhat true, but Ithink like what just what you
were saying there's certainlevels of of that like, like you
talked about this, just a bunchof bunch of dudes getting
together and you know, haha,around seeing some tunes.
There's a there's sort of ademeanor or sort of essence that

(27:44):
comes out of that. Versus abunch of dudes getting ready to
sing for a contest to win a lotof money. There's two different
sorts of demeanors there rightand then there's a whole nother
demeanor if you're singing andit's not just a male thing but
there's like women involved thenyou got a whole nother demeanor

(28:05):
like way a way of acting. Thenthere's a whole nother demeanor
when you're the one maybe you'resinging solo like it's just you
for some reason that anotherdemeanor. I think each of those
like this guy saying, sort of isa representative of some sort of
morality of what of thatsituation. What's just not I

(28:30):
don't know, it's not nothinggroundbreaking, like, native
folks know that I guess, in away but but do we? I don't know.
Because we just do it. We don'tthink about it. We do it. Yeah.
Do we do something compels us todo those things? Go do it.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know, whatever. Whether
it's as far as song I do agree.
There's levels to singing. Iagree. There's levels to
demeanor and reverence. Yeah. Ialso feel like there's another

(29:17):
caveat to that which is, in somecases, Song accompanies
something. Yes. And in somecases song is something
Yeah. So for example,jingle just sidestep song

(29:40):
accompanies a dance. Right?
Agreed. But amongst the Ojibwe,and their, their ceremony of the
medicine dress, yes, the songshold a higher purpose. Outside
just accompanying the dance.
They themselves are part of thepower, I guess you could say.

Right? And

so like, my, here's here's a thought. For those that
listen to us who has ever beenin this situation? This is
relatable for those who don'tknow, I mean, it'd be tough. But
here we got most singers havebeen asked to render render and

(30:34):
an honest honor song. Yeah. Adda non power or non dance, right?
Yeah, yeah. Graduation andinauguration. Yeah a retirement
or retirement or whatever. Socan you guys sing us an honor
song?

The printing of it?

Yeah. So then you go on there you go up there.
Yeah. Then you start singing andthen everyone stares at you.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. So then it

begs the question of when an honor song is
accompanying something of honor.
Yeah. Who the hell are theysupposed to stare at? So, so one
time I got asked to sing for agraduation. Yeah. I told the
story before solo and I stoodbehind them. Yeah. Yeah. Because

(31:33):
then I thought my job isn't. I'mnot the thing.

Yeah, so don't look at me. Yeah. So

then the song at that point, the songs not even a
company in anything, or it's noteven the thing. And in that
case, it shouldn't be the thing.
Yeah. Have you ever? Have youever been in that situation
where you're like, can you singYour Honor song? And then have
you ever questioned it and beenlike, what are we honoring? What
is it? What is it? We'rehonoring?

Yeah, if it's

me, then I'm not gonna sing my own honor song.

It's show offy it becomes

seems like so like when they do graduations also,
okay, they should sing a songwhile they walk in. Or they
shouldn't sing a song while theywhile they give out the roses or
whatever. Yeah, they should. Youknow, it's it's just weird to be
when you just standing theresinging a song and everyone's
like, staring at you and theydon't know what they're supposed
to do. And

yeah, yeah, I wonder. I wonder when? When did
that. When did that sort ofchange? Well, you know, it's
performance. Right? It'sperformance. The honor song.
Today, at least in thosecircumstances is his performance

(33:05):
because the song is not I mean,I would question whether the
song is even legit, likelegitimate. I mean, what is the
honor song anyway? What whatwhat I don't know.

It's usually just slow, powerful song, right?

You just pick your the song who you're singing with
everybody knows and, andsolemnly

just sing solemn.
Just so we're actually flippingthe lid on a lot of things right
now. Yeah.
When you go to theseconferences, and then they're
like, they're like, Can everyoneplease rise?

(33:51):
We've caught we've asked. We'veasked medicine will singers.
And the inner tribal Coalitionfor the spirit of the white
buffalo. There we've asked themto sing the honor song. Oh,

(34:19):
yeah. Oh, how about that one?
The honors? Yeah,

the honor song.

And, and this conclusion of the honor song.
We've asked. Community Leadershot Shandon Pete start us off
in a good way.

Yeah. Always.
Yeah. Always in a good way withan invocation.

I've never heard Native people, never an Indian
say invocation I don't. And thenall of a sudden, when we go to
these things, it's like it's aninvocation. I'm

going to invocate before we eat Yeah, can

we invocate like, I don't know why we do this. Why
don't we do this? Why do welike, adopt? Like, weird, man,
dude, we're like calling somestuff out right here.

It is a call out.
And I mean, it has to be right.
We're in the age. Where's thisthe era of the call out? It has
to be like, it's like, a time ofchange.

Now, so we grew up in the honor song era. We did.
Yeah. And our childhood wasreally the invocation era. That
sort of childhood. Yeah,

do we hit Save Jeep in the ribbon? Ribbon shirt
ribbon shirt, not skirt? Thatwasn't a thing yet? No, no.

So even lady said ribbon shirts. How about the
ribbon vest? Yeah,

that was quickly replaced with the Pendleton
vest. I don't know when butyeah, and

thank God so like they're always weird colors like
yellow and red and black. Likeorange. Teal. Like they're like
in the same colors. But so thennow now what young people what

(36:23):
what we saw the endo are what itare. The early midlife I guess
what we're what we're seeing isnow the land acknowledgement.

This is the era of Yeah. So then

we went. So now when we go to meetings, we got
to deal with all three meetingsconferences. We got to deal with
the invocation to

honor song when we write these down. So invocation
Oh, wait long landacknowledgement comes first. I

would say the land acknowledgement first, then you
hit them with the honor. Andthen and then you hit it in by
now you're an hour and a half inthe opening

ceremony? Yes, man. And what's the difference
between the remark becausethere's remarks after the
invocation, opening remarks.
Which

you're right, you're right. There's opening
and opening remark. Okay. Sookay, we're planning we're
planning a conference right now.
We're planning the medicine. No,we're planning the sacred we'll
circle of research conference.

Let's put hoop in there somewhere.

Oh, no. That's a sacred the Sacred Hoop of
holistic research. InternationalConference of First Nations. Oh,
no, no, no, I've ki K. Yeah, sothat's that's our conference.

Not not first nations. So we gotta go broader.
Indigenous,

indigenous. You're right. Indigenous. That's your
right. Good call. So okay, sowhat is it called?

Do we get the whole day plan that actually
with the land acknowledgement,honor song and application
opening remarks? festival day?

Oh, the now the right. frame for the food.

Oh, yeah. That's up to lunch. We're up to lunch.
Lunch.

And we, for lunch, you got to find a Lakota like
that's the rules. You got tofind Lakota Sundance leader.

No matter where no matter where you're in, no
matter,

dude. Remember, we went to Phoenix for that?
Geoscience conference. Oh, yeah,you pick stuff. Oh, yeah. They
were doing you pick stuff? Yeah.
Phoenix Arizona. Yeah. And Isaid I wonder how the local
people feel about it. So then.
Okay, so then in which our foodbeing served a sandwiches with

(39:02):
Lacroix with Lacroix drinks sono need no Indians even one so
in those weird funky chips likethose

thick Yes, yeah.
No chips or somebody's

kettle chips, whatever they're called. So then
that's what that's what lunchesand of course at assigned
seating, the tables areassigned. So

all right. We got half the day planned.

Dude, that's that's lunch and then plant plenaries
disciplinary. Yeah. The patentOh, are the panel should go
panel to do

panel first. Oh, let's go. And let's make sure
that the panel is just everybodyintroducing themselves. And then
we're gonna run out of time.
Well, that's a given. That's agood that's the way a panel is
isn't that format. Yeah. So so

the panel will be five people from very, very
Different parts of IndianCountry. Oh yeah. Speaking on
like Yeah. Pressing issues inIndian country from a Native
perspective. Yeah.

So more specific like native grassland, grass
seed,

no disciplinary session. Well, that's

Oh, that's the plenary. Okay. Got it backwards.
Okay. Yeah. Okay. So the

panel is just Yeah.
Okay. And if I shoes pressingissues in Indian country from an
Native perspective, okay.

Yeah.

In land management.
So and you got to make surelike, it's like to two people
are involved in land management,the other person is an educator.
And then yeah, Indian lawyer,you gotta have that, you know?
Yeah. Then you have a randomcouncilman, which they don't
know what's going on. So.

So you've been hitting some meetings? I can
tell. So So yeah, someconferences, you know, these two
dudes don't

know, then then.
Then we have a 15 minute break,which then would lead to the
plenary session.

So which of these I thought Yeah, the plenary
these are these are sessions,right? These are sessions. No,
that's the two sessions

are doing and we're gonna start our sessions at 730
in the morning.

That's after the morning blessing, which started
at four

No, the sunrise ceremony Yeah.

Yeah.

Why did they start the song early? Who wants to go
to a session at eight in themorning? Dude golden nine.
There's a huge differencebetween a man

Yeah, a world of difference.

A world Oh, different Aaron. There's a whole
different

let's get back to the song now. Let's get back to
the honor song. Because we gotto figure out who's gonna sing
the honor song. Oh,

yeah. Right. So let's go back. Oh, I thought it
was Medicine Wheel singers.

Oh, yeah. Where did that Yeah, really

good. Medicine will singers. Yeah. Okay,

got that jotted down Where's oh yeah good.

The invocation is a is a elder not from the area no
can be no it's got to be someonethat you actually that you flew
in you you flew them and theydon't even know what the
conference is about. They justcame and they you know they

(42:55):
brought their wife they're gonnahit the outlets right after the
outlets right

they give me keep going. As

part of the honorary Emil was still the
sacred Prince Albert tobacco orNo, no, that tops tops. Yeah,
it's always tops. That's theblue one, which will quickly get
discarded.

Well, you can't bring it on a plane, right? No,
no, you can. Can you? Yeah,

you can bring your plane. No, the light blue one is
beautiful. As beautiful. Yeah,that's the second choice.
Second, second, Chris Thomascomes with rolling papers.

They get the bugles to the singers. Yeah,
that's the Yeah.

You'll pay the guy to come and pray. You'll pay him
$500 You bought his planeticket, got him a hotel room and
gave him three days per diem.
The drum group, which there'sseven of them, you gave him some
tobacco and you fed them lunch.

gave him one day registration.

You gave him watch the plenary session of your
choice.
I've been on all facets of thesethings. I've been on the prayer
side I've been on I've been thekeynote I've been the plenary
I've been both a spectator. Notall of it, man. I've never done

(44:23):
the registration table though.

You had to pitch in you want to make some changes
men get on the committee. Whichwhat's

so what's the registration table for at these
things?

Register. Like what are you registered prints
your bag print your badge, printyour badge and give you the bag
with the notebook and waterbottle.

I think that's it in the pen that's in the water
bottle.

Oh yeah. rattling around in there.

They put the pen and paper like the stationary
and the water bottle. And thenwhat else? All the four sided
highlighter thing? The squaretriangle? Excited one? It's
pink, yellow and orange. Youknow what I'm talking about?

I have one probably sitting out here
somewhere. Yeah. Okay, back tothe song. No. That's good. I
mean, we're we're trying toplan. You have to Okay. The
conference on his

tribal tribal research specialist. Yeah, we'll
call it the nonconferenceconference. Yeah,

it's got to be so how would we change that? So
first of all, go back. We'regonna get to let's let's go down
the list.

What can you land acknowledgement? Who's doing the
landing? No. Well, no. I

mean, I mean, if you would change it, how would
you change it?

Just opening remarks.

Okay, no, no honor song. Are you going to do a
landing? No, I'm, I'm honestlyasking you. And I agree. So I
agree.

I always feel like it can. I'm not against land
acknowledgments. What I'magainst is reasoning for them,
and then how they're scripted.
Yeah. So like opening remarksshould be somebody come up to
say, Hey, thanks for coming.
Everybody. Remember, this is whywe're here. Yeah. And yeah,
before we get started, man,let's think such and such tribe

(46:23):
for doing their thing andhelping us out. Yeah. And, of
course, we acknowledge that thisis where we are. And yeah, and
we're doing our best to respecteveryone's beliefs. But because
of where we're are, if there'sany protocols needed, we're
going to default to thesepeople, because it's this is
their Aboriginal land. Asidefrom that, it's going to be

(46:44):
pretty basic. It's the singlefollow the agenda, whatever, get

down to business,

if anyone drops a feather, we know. Instead, it's
let's pray, dude, let's plan aconference.

That's what we're doing right now. We're doing it.

We're doing it.
We're doing it.
Should we plan a conference?

Yeah. We said we would back in episode. Let's
see. Are you serious? I'mserious, man. We saw this is the
deal. We got a lot of we got alot of criticisms and grapes,
you know? Uh huh.

So we ain't stepping up.

We're sitting at the registration table, genomic
changes. Now we talked aboutthis episode 41 hanging around
the conference Indians,reimagining the modern structure
for discussing tribal research.
So at the start, and I thinkthat's right, you so you all
come together because you wantto do business. And maybe that's
just like a, like a, like a manway of thinking. We need a

(47:55):
female to balance it out. But Idon't know what they say the
same thing. If you want to getdown to business. Yeah. Just
tell everybody that that detail.
We're here to do this. This is,yeah, we're here in this land to
do it. It just like you said,right. We follow

those or anything.
If if there's protocols needed.
This is who we're going to useas our advisors is the tribe
that we're closest to? Yes,that's where we're staying.
Well, whatever, you know, okay.

Let me take a step back. Okay. So before you before
you before you say that, becausesome people I'm trying to think
of the argument, some peoplewill say, well, well, don't you
always got to start the meetingout in a good way. What about
the non Indians pray? How areyou gonna? I gotta collusion.
Let's hear it.

This is actually got brought up at meetings,
consultations I've been in.
Yeah. Where I said, you know,what's probably more important?
Yeah. More appropriate forconsultation sake, because
consultation can actually belike, confrontational. Yeah.
I've always said, let's startlike a ceremony would where the
announcer Yeah, would remindeverybody why we're here. Yeah,

(49:10):
yeah, the announcer would say,this has been put on by this
group. And this is why theywanted us to come here. Yeah.
That's what an announcer wouldsay, at a ceremony, right. And
then we would do our business.
And at the end, we would say,all right, as they announced,

(49:33):
they would say, before we sendyou home today, we're going to
ask for good things for for you.
And we're going to ask that whatyou had learned here today, you
know, take with you and share itwith your people. Yeah. And then
you would go about your businessand then at the end of the day,
you would have somebody come inand make a wish, which we could
call a prayer but they wouldmake a wish list for all have us

(49:57):
in attendance. So this is why wecame here today. And we're gonna
send everybody home. Yeah. In agood way. I feel like that's
that that's a little moreappropriate.

Yeah, it seems like and I don't know, because
because I can reflect on thatand see how that sort of mimics
real life, you know, forceremonially speaking, I
suppose. But we don't see thatat things that are more. I don't
know if you could say they'recontemporary, but So at, like

(50:37):
power. There's prayer before thepower starts.

Is Yeah, and I don't know why. Yeah. I don't
know why I've never known why.

Yeah, the ad that what you said, seems more
natural. So at the end, youknow, to send everybody off.
That seems more natural.

But that announcement at the beginning,
is paramount, because that'stelling the camp, telling the
group. This is why we're here.
Yeah, these people brought ustogether for this reason. So
that's this reason, is whatwe're going to do today. Yeah.
You know, I learned that whenthey have them tobacco
ceremonies, they'll start thoseand they get right to business.

(51:17):
They say Mamak Kumar Mook. We'regoing to begin, everybody, we're
going to begin. Yeah, thatperson will get their items
ready. Really announcer willthen say, well, actually, at
those ceremonies, they startright away with the singing and
stuff. Yeah, after so manysongs, they stop. That's when

(51:38):
the announcer gets up, bringsthe sponsor over and says, This
is why we're here today. This iswhy we're doing this. Yeah, this
person asked us to come togetherfor this reason. So that's the
reason for us to be here. Solike, let's just say we we put
on a conference, and let'sgenerically Hi native hydrology.

(52:00):
Right? Okay. Sure. That meanswhen that announcer gets up on
behalf of who's putting it on,and in this case, it would be
us. Yeah, we would have ourannouncers say, this is what we
want you to say. That person isgoing to say it and he would, he
would say, This is why theybrought us together. Everyone

(52:22):
who's going to speak today isgoing to speak on issues related
to native water. There's timesfor other topics elsewhere. But
today, this is why they broughtus here. They asked us to be
here. So in that moment thatmimics to me, yeah, ceremonial
realism. Yeah. When somebodyasked you to conduct a sweat,

(52:46):
this is a sweat we're going tohave today for this reason. And
it's okay. To be specific aboutthat reason. Sometimes I feel
like we're told like, it's toobroad. Like we tell people like
this really broad. No, there'stimes they say, this young man
wants a child. Yeah. You know,and people think that's weird.

(53:10):
No, that's the way it is thisyoung man. He's married. They're
trying to have a child. He wantsa child. This is why he asked
for this. So yeah, all of us inhere collectively, are going to
ask for that for him. Yeah.

It's very specific. Yeah. It's, it's real
specific, or has no reason atall. You're just there. Yep.

It's what it's what yeah. Yep. Yep. And then
sometimes, there's just as muchpower in this in the ritual of
it. Right. I came here today.
And I built my fire. I put inthe rocks. We got the sweat
ready. The act of it itself.
Ritual, and there's something toit, right. Yeah. And in those

(53:53):
times, it's just like, hey, wehad a good week. Yeah, we're
gonna have a sweat.

Yeah.

Let's just hope that it continues. Yeah. So so
our conference should mimicsomething of that nature that
yeah, there's a domain. This isthe domain we're talking about.
And this is what we're going toeveryone in that meeting. So to
me, it can still follow theformat that everyone's used to
sessions, speakers in the front.
Everything that that initial,like,

kickoff, the framing of it the framing, yes.
That's

badass man.

Well, it's like that. It's like what you know,
what you hear often is, this hasalready been prepared for us.
Yeah, you hear that? That's kindof like what you're saying. Like
when when you go to take asweat, it's not just you show up
and there's wood that splitthere already and you have nice
rocks and and the thing isalready built in everything's

(54:51):
but there's a lot of work thatwent into that maybe years and
years of preparing, building up,getting things ready making
things work. Just really hasalready been prepared. So

and that's why it's important for those people
coming. So when those peoplecome to sit in that Lodge, yeah.
And participate. It's also outof respect for what just
happened. That person came twohours before in the sweater. Got
the blankets ready, lit thefire, you know, got the fire.
Ready? Good. Got it ready? Yeah,brought the rocks and prepared

(55:30):
the water. You know, all ofthat. Yeah, that when those
people came, it's also out ofrespect for that act. Yeah, he
did this legwork. So now we'regonna come so we can use the
blessings of this lodge. Hadthey not do that? I would have
been home sitting there. Youknow? So same thing, if we hold

(55:53):
these topics, dear. Yes, topicsof research, these topics of
regulation, land management,what are sciences? Whatever it
is, if we hold these topics,dear, and we want to give them
the proper attention. Yeah,maybe we should start conducting
ourselves in an authentic way,where instead of doing this,

(56:13):
like fake, it had the flag songnow, you know, like, you've
asked some people to come in.
And it's like, yeah, that'scool. And I get it. That's
that's a sign of respect, butalso, for those who are
participants. And believe, ifyou made that announcement, if
you said, this is why we'rehere. This is what we're here to

(56:35):
do. They would relate to that.
Yeah, they would relate to that.
You go to Fort Hall, you go tothe Sundance, the same thing
happens that announcer remindsthem and in some cases, it's the
same person running it remindsThis is why the largest builds,
these are the sponsors. This iswhy we're doing this this year.
Blah, blah, blah, you go to themedicine dance, you go to jump

(56:56):
dance, you go to the the sevenor the bells, you know that
religious that religion, you goto pod you go to anywhere. And
they announce, yeah.

Sets the sets the tone, sets the tone. And like
you said, oftentimes that's thatis accompanied by singing,
generally speaking, it is. Butnot just anything. Not just any
old, any old song. It's some inparticular, some very specific,

(57:33):
specific for the moment, togather to call attention to or
to begin something in a waythat's accustomed. So how do you
bring that in? No, that doesthat seem to cross the boundary?
Like to bring somethingceremonial into something that's
non

about this. How about this? Okay, how about
this? We are. This might onlywork if everybody involved is
menfolk, but maybe not. Maybeyou could kinda, maybe the day
before the conference starts.
The people putting theconference on in this case us?
Yeah, maybe the people we'veinvited to guide us or whatever.

(58:15):
Yeah, we go to that place wherewe're gonna have the conference.
Yeah. And we smoke.

The menfolk? Yeah,

I mean, I think there's a role for the women and
all that. I don't know how wewould work that out. But there's
a way but we would spoke wewould say tomorrow. Are things
gonna start? Yeah, yeah. We wantto make sure everything's right.
We want people to travel heresafe. We want people to, to
leave here safe. We want peoplewhen they speak that they're

(58:49):
heard. Yeah, when they speak.
It's, it's done in a way that'sappropriate. Yeah. So we're
gonna smoke about it. And we'regonna smoke right here where
it's gonna happen. See at someof these ceremonies that I know
about the day before they'llsmoke there.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

So maybe it can kind of mirror and it's still
it's not for the public. It'snot a showmanship thing. It's
just those people planning thisevent. That's what they're going
to do. And so maybe it'll setpeople in the right space. Like
we say, this is why we're here.
We're not here. Now. Once westart this conference, it's not
about putting ourselves in afront. Our job now is to provide
a venue in which these topicscan grow.

So we're doing so you're saying we couldn't charge
for the pre conference event.
The pre conference smoke, thepre conference smoke.

I mean, we could just

be a premium Yeah.
For the silver medallion, for

the for the White Buffalo members there are four
colors. So the sacred

Shandin Pete (01:00:08):
if you're just in the Sacred Hoop category, yeah,
you gotta get up into that whitebuffalo category to get the pre
conference discount. Discount.

Aaron Brien (01:00:18):
I'm sorry, ma'am.
You purchased the Turtle Islandpackage

now, I think you're onto some, but this but
this is the thing that I'msomewhat concerned about is that
idea of crossing a well, I don'tknow crossing over ceremonial
ism into this thing. What ifit's not that thing that I think
of as like a conference, youknow? Yeah, but then it don't
matter, then it doesn't matter.

But but but think of this in the old days. Yeah.
Not even the old days. The 50sis still going on. Even on your
reservation. Yeah. 70 years ago,somebody would come to your
home. They were family wouldcome to your home and visit,
right. Yeah. A meal wasprepared. Yeah, coffee was made.
And it was common for men to sitand smoke together.

Yeah, let's smoke water.

I came here to talk to you about something. Let's
smoke about it. And they woulddo it they would visit it would
tell sometimes it was a seriousthing. Sometimes it was. I know
a story. I'm going to tell it toyou. I want to hear your version
of it. Simply that right? Or myson here. He's gonna he wants to
start being a jockey. You usedto be a good jockey. So we're

(01:01:44):
gonna smoke and I want you totalk to him. Yeah, you know,
simple things. And it happenedpretty natural to the point
where like, if you brought thatup to most people, they probably
wouldn't even recognize it assomething ceremonial. Right?
Remember, like, oh, yeah, Iremember when my uncle used to
come over or whatever. It reallythat's an act. So when people

(01:02:04):
get together to speak aboutthings, some that's an act like
pretty shield, my grandma'sgrandma's said, words are
wholly, you know, careful withthem. You know, so like, we
joke, but those conferencethings have the potential to be

(01:02:26):
places where people really canbe affected by what's being
talked about, but instead whatit turns into. It's like,
where's my swag bag, and whenyou're gonna let me out, so I
can go check out the mall, youknow. And that's cool, too.
Like, I kind of feel like that'spart of it, too. That's still a
part of you gotta allow forpeople to do that. Some people

(01:02:47):
don't get vacations. Some peopledon't get days off of work like,
like, in the traditional senseof getting time off. Like, I
know, my job. Typical. It'slike, it never really ends.
Yeah. So sometimes when I go ona trip, I might have an
afternoon to go do something funthat I normally won't get to do.

(01:03:09):
Yeah. And so experience.

So let's bring into the area. That's part of
it, even if it's a mom.

I think I think we could call it a conference. But
really, it might, it might besomething else. It might not be
maybe it might be identifying.
So like, let's go back to ourwater idea. Yeah. Maybe now
collectively, you and I willidentify people that we want to
hear what they have to say aboutwater in one bite them. And then
maybe this get togethers justfor a select few. I don't know.

(01:03:43):
I don't know how it would look,you know. But it's possible to
say that you could do somethinglike that you can I think
they're they're in you might,you might just call it. You
don't want to call it a talkingcircle.

But that's familiar, but he knows it. Yeah.
We don't want to do that. I knowthat. I mean, that's, that's not
to that's not too out of theordinary to invite people.
That's essentially what theseconferences do. Right. The
people put proposals in to say,this is what I want to talk
about. And a committee looks atthose and say, Yeah, this fits

(01:04:26):
this doesn't fit.

But I think we would, but we wouldn't do like a
call for papers. No, no, no. I'mall for post. Nobody would say
is like, I think for us becausewe do have a bias in research
you and I like we have a certainway we want to do Yeah, talk
about Native people. So we wouldhave to identify those people
that reflect our mission. Yeah,and I know people are gonna say

(01:04:51):
well, that's bias and all thatwhat don't come this isn't
mandatory for you, you know?
Yeah, if you like our brand oftopic and you like our brand and
our approach to how we dothings, yeah, then this might be
the thing for you. And that'snot in a confrontational way.
That's just an A not everybodythinks the way we do and that's

(01:05:13):
all right. Right. Right. I justlike to make fun of them

I think we got something here, man.
I mean, maybe. Okay,

here's a topic that I want to I want to, I don't
know about. Yeah. And it'spopular, but I want to flesh it
out. I want to flesh it out.
Yeah, I wanna, I wanna, I wantto beat it to death in a
weekend. And honestly, it'slike, it's got its level of
cheese. But is there somevalidity to it? Who are the
experts at it? Yeah. And that'scultural burning. You hear

(01:05:54):
people talk about it. I hear itkind of being a thing. You and I
even kind of got roped intodoing like this training thing,
which I got double booked andcouldn't go to

he has all abandoned me. Yeah. burned by
that. But yeah.

I was good. It was good. So let's just say 10
conferences that purely for forfor that? Like, I don't know,
about it. I don't know about it.
I know. I can kind of figuresome things out, navigate
through but who are the experts?
And then really figure it outfor myself. Like really say,

(01:06:37):
hey, yeah, and then maybe at theend of the conference, I say
this theory don't hold water.
Yeah. Maybe I come back and say,you know, I was wrong. I was
thinking of this thing wrong.
Yeah. There's, there's butthere's several topics like that
where just because they'retrendy. Yeah, doesn't mean
they're wrong. And that's my,I've noticed that's my approach

(01:06:58):
lately. Like I'm kinda likecynical. Which that's nice.
Dude, that's never gonna goaway. Right? That's not Oh, no,
no, no. What I'm also openingthe hearing people out and
saying, okay, yeah, yeah, themedicine or the what is it? The
medicine who thing,

the medicine hoop I made, it's on the wheel. Well,

I make fun of it all the time. But I'm also I
admit, I haven't made a wholelot of time to understand it
either. Even even though itcomes from a non native person,
but maybe their intentionsreally were to try to create
something for Native people. AndI mean, maybe yeah, maybe I

(01:07:41):
don't know. But like Maslow,right Maslow kind of got his his
pyramid of whatever he calls it.
Yeah.

Hierarchy of Needs. Hierarchy of Needs.

He kind of he kind of stole the idea from the
Blackfoot. Paying a teepee.
Right. And so I'm trying tounderstand things like that, you
know? Yeah. Go deeper, go deeperinto into things like China,
like, Yeah, I'm gonna make funof them. Yeah. And I hope people
who listen to us know like, I'mgoing to continue to make fun of

(01:08:13):
things. But that doesn't meanI'm not open to understanding
them. Yeah, I make fun of myselfall the time. So

well, you know, what I'd like to see in these,
in this hypothetical conferencethat we're, or whatever it is
that we're thinking of, is, isargument, disagreement. It has
to happen. We're so afraid, eveneven if I go to a conference,
and I disagree with whatever'sbeing said in this conference. I

(01:08:43):
don't want to say nothingbecause I feel like I'll hurt
somebody's feelings or destroytheir ego to where they give up.
Even Even if I said it in atactful persuasive way, there
might be some sort ofrepercussion. So we get timid
and we're afraid because of theresponse, and maybe even the

(01:09:04):
manner in which we challengeideas is not we don't quite have
have that yet. But I don't knowhow to bring that in that
debate, you know, the truenative debate of things.

So I brought this up at a consultation this
summer. Yeah, in Wheatland,Wyoming. We're at the energy
company where I said I saidright in there and actually
caused kind of a firestorm ofissues for me. And I won't get
into details there. But I saidright away, I said, if you are
uncomfortable with being inawkward situations and saying

(01:09:40):
things that people need to hearthat this isn't the job for you.
Yeah. And my statement was takenas divisive. I was in trying to
be unified. And so here's my my,my counter to that when I was
told and I'm sure if you broughttopics up like this, it would be
be the same thing. Well, we wantto unify. We're trying to unify

(01:10:03):
people. We want to bridge thedivide. All that. Here's my
thing. I don't.

What is the thing we always hear? We're 500
unique. Tribal nations. Yeah,we're unique. Yeah.
relentlessness and ideas. Yeah,

let us be unique.
And so I'm not again, I'm not.
I'm not against anybody. I'mjust for who I am. Yeah, Crow
Indian. And why do we got totake second place? And so when
you say that, people take thatas like, well, you're not for
me. Of course, I'm for you. I'mnever going to be a roadblock to

(01:10:41):
you. I'm never going to be aroundabout for you. I'm going to
get out of your way. And let youdo what you got to do. And I'm
going to support you. But at thesame time, I got to worry about
my stuff, right? Yeah. And so tome, research is the same thing.
So when you take a topic whereyou take, you take a method of
research, yeah. It can't growunless you criticize it. And

(01:11:06):
people take that as you saying,it's worthless. I'm not saying
it's worthless. I'm saying ithad to be there. Yeah. Yeah, it
has to be there. And to assumethat traditional ecological
knowledge is a polished thing,or to say that indigenous
research method is a polishedthing. Right? Now, that's just

(01:11:27):
naive, isn't it? And so until wecan get to a place where people
can criticize not only their ownforms of research, but question
others and say, Hey, like, I'mnot doing this, because I hate
you. I'm not doing this becauseyou fell. But I really am
questioning your method becauseof a, b, and c. Yeah. Now it's

(01:11:50):
your turn to talk. You know whatI mean? Yeah. But people don't
want to do that, because they'reso afraid. They're so afraid to
make people uncomfortable, butthey're also afraid of biting
the hand that feeds them. Oh,yeah. And that's real man. I've
seen it with with, with Nativepeople, where it's like, we got
a thing going, we're not goingto mess with it. I'm not saying

(01:12:12):
that's a bad thing. I'm sayingwe can tweak the thing. We can
make the thing work for us.

Yeah. Yeah.
We need it and I need it. I needit. And I don't know how. And
maybe it's this, maybe it'sthis, this, this sort of intro
to this idea we're forming thatsort of sets the sets the

(01:12:40):
guidelines for that, you know,that you have to go in knowing
that some ideas might getchallenged, or I don't know,
even like all this pre work thatought to happen to say, you know
that. Yeah. Like you said, Yougot to get uncomfortable. But I

(01:13:01):
don't want to get uncomfortable,

man. I just don't like for the first like, save
for the first get together wehave and maybe it just needs to
be like, indigenous researchmethod. This is what they say it

is right now.
Yeah. Yeah. Methodology. Yes.
This

ingredient, this methodology. This is what it is
right now. Yeah, but let's takeit apart, like a carburetor and
put it back together and see ifit holds up. And I'm telling you
right now, it's not gonna. Yeah,and I know for these reasons,
but we can't get to the goodthing. until this happens.

(01:13:40):
Because this had to happen. Thecheese had to happen.
Comfortable stuff had to happen.
Yeah, the I think indigenousresearch method is like the seat
at the table. We fought for theseat of a while the seat at the
tables now. We've had it for alittle while now. So now now
it's let's get in the driver'sseat. You know what I mean?
Yeah, so we think we made itpalatable. We made it, whatever.

(01:14:03):
Let's get after it, man. Yeah,I'm talking a lot. I'm sorry.
Well, no,

you got a lot to say. Yeah, this is this is what
makes me sort of a well, okay,so the issue is this. It depends
on the audience, right, theaudience that's, that would
engage in this sort of content.
Conference idea is going to be awide range of people. And today,

(01:14:31):
this era that we're in, youknow, this idea of identity is,
I don't know, people are sosensitive about it. But it, it
seems pretty straightforward tome when I

look at it. That's how I look at it too. But

one of the issues is, it seems, and I might be off
on this, and this is where Ithink this sort of conference
would, or idea of meeting wouldbe would be helpful. This is
what I see is that the narrativeof what indigenous research
methodologies is, is largelydriven by and we've talked about
this before the nonpractitioner. So there's a lot

(01:15:12):
of stereotype, romanticism,things that not aren't quite
practical and maybe notreflective of modern tribal
process. And I think that's ifthat's challenged, people get
bit sensitive, especially thosewho are maybe reconnecting with
their identity. And this is thepathway they've chose to

(01:15:35):
reconnect is through research,through employing research
methodology that appears to beguided by an indigenous
approach. That's going to behurtful man. To them. And, but
why should I care here? Whyshould I care? It hasn't.

But it also be hurtful to me. Am I being mean?
What if I do this whole thing?
And then it's like, you knowwhat, I'm the one that's wrong.
What if you what if it comesout? Like no, Chandi? Like, no,
you started out maybe they'reright, on this, but you're wrong
on this? And I think that's whatpeople need to do. We need it.
Yeah, it's, we can use it we, wecan get researchers to say our

(01:16:15):
land managers are people whoimplore a method of working with
Native people, we can say usethis as a springboard to
challenge your way of thinkingto make it better. Yeah. So we
can say whatever your topic is,whether it's cultural burning,
whether it's native hydrology,or, you know, like indigenous

(01:16:38):
approaches to blank, fill in theblank. And then when you come to
find out, it's like, well, whatam I doing? And is there a time
for it not to be indigenous?
Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know whatI mean? Like, that's one,
chemistry is chemistry dude.
Like, and maybe, maybe it'sokay, not to put a feather on it
this time. Indigenous

approaches to shoe tying like, Oh, come on a

shoe. Like, once you your perspective, and it's
like, we all I do, I do know, Ido know if we do something like
this. I don't know living in twoworlds

shit, ya know, one world, one world.

It's one world man.
This is the world we got to doone world order. Yeah. And, and
also man, here's, here's athing. That's what this is a
hard nosed episode, man.

We're getting it all out. Stat. I

feel I feel it is bad. So like, I feel us as
Native people need to write theship again, we need to like go
back to ground zero in anyresearch or in field sciences.
You have a datum? Yeah. And thateverything drawn from that
datum? Yeah. And maybe for us.
In the world of research, orpeople who are on the fringes,

(01:17:55):
the satellite people, we have tobe reminded every once in a
while, what that datum is, yeah,the differences is now we're
going on three to fourgenerations. Now, native
researchers. At this point, wegot to say, it's us who has to
self govern. Yeah, theresearchers, because now when we

(01:18:17):
reach back to the data, which isour culture, or languages, or
ceremonial life, for somepeople, it's not there, and it's
not as accessible anymore. Sonow it's up to the researchers
to self govern. That also meanspeople got to hear stuff that
they don't want to hear. Becauseif we're really trying to affect

(01:18:38):
and in fact, Indian country in away where this research benefits
tribal people, because rightnow, it doesn't seem like it
benefits tribal people. We haveto remind them that and I'm not
that seemed that sounded reallyself righteous just now, but
it's not up to me to remindthem, but I think we have the we

(01:19:02):
have the machismo, okay, okay,okay. I'm going to go forward
with it. I think people I don'there's his controversial
thought. I don't think thatwe're the first people to think
of something like this. No, no,I don't like we might be the

(01:19:22):
first people that are willing todo it.

Maybe we'll see what happens.

Me, maybe I'm gonna talk myself out of this whole
thing. It sounds like a lotsounds like a lot of work.

Well, I you know, there's like minded people out
there. There is there is thatthere is and that are and
there's also people that are notlike minded but are willing to
listen and willing to try andgive things a chance. I don't
give people enough credit. Inthat regard. It's kind of
presumptive of me to thinkpeople get their feelings hurt.

(01:20:02):
Who might say that? They will?
Maybe they won't. Maybe theywill, you know?

In fact, maybe we won't even tell them anything
they don't already know. Right.
Right. Right. Right. And we'relike, but there's still a
benefit to that. Right? Thebenefit is that we got to hang
out with like minded people,which is always bad. Yeah. and
validate

validate some things. So

do you remember what we used to do those? Those
Visiting Scholar things whereYeah, where an individual would
come and present? Yeah, to us asindigenous research center, but
we'd have the students, thestudents would get to watch
right, yeah. And then thatperson would sit down at this
table, and we would talk abouttheir research. Yeah. Maybe

(01:20:41):
that's what it is. Maybe that'sall it is. This conference is
just saying. People willvolunteer their topics. Yeah.

I liked that. I liked that setup that we did
like that. It was cool. seemedto make sense. Yeah. Shares
learning. Yeah, it was fun.
Yeah. And we were able to sortof challenge lightly the things
that we were thinking, Ithought, yeah, man. So

maybe, maybe that's, that's all it is. It's
like, hey, because we don't wantto obviously, I don't know
anything about chemistry. Idon't know anything about string
theory. So we would have toinvite certain topics, right?
Yeah. That, that we we feelcomfortable talking about, but
it would be nice with along withother people. And yeah. And

(01:21:31):
that, and we were just peoplewould volunteer their topic,
their research topic, to presentin front of us with an audience.
And by them volunteering there,that there's, they're telling us
they're open to hear suggestionsand our criticisms, if they if
they don't want that they don'thave to volunteer and there, but

(01:21:55):
we invite people to come andparticipate as audience members.
And as witness, you even saidthat you said that at one of
those things. Your job is to actas a witness. Yeah. And so which
is a vital that's also that'salso a native, very vital,

vital role.

Oh, my gosh, you're going to do it. We're going to
do it now. Let's come up withit.

I see the start of it. I see the start of it. It's
like the thing we did. That'sthe start of it. Maybe a one
day, maybe one day, maybe halfday, start small. Test it out.
See if we can get people toargue and and what

do you think of what sort of resolve what and
then maybe we keep it regional?
Because like we don't want toget too out of our out of like
Spokane.

Yeah,

let's do it in Spokane, where there's, it's
close enough to the plateaufolks, you're close enough to
the coastal folks, you're closeto the plains folks are doing
like in

her Bozeman,

Bozeman spendy, man. Super spendy not boast but
I mean, but warlinThere we go overwhelmed there.

Oh, yeah. It would

piggyback off of the School of anthropology, the
American Studies program. Yeah,it could happen. But we also do
it in Pocatello, Idaho, man.

Yeah. Yeah. Here's the pitch then. Okay, some
dough. We need some cash.

Well, we started GoFundMe.

Naturally.

We would need we would need we would need How
about your institution? Wouldthey flip some money over?

Yeah, maybe it's, it's it's a it's a novel idea.
And yeah, I could see somefunding. Of course it has to be.
It has to occur across theborder. I think we'd be the only
thing.

That's fine.
Calgary, including CalgaryLethbridge. You could do it in,
in in. I don't know if I want togo to Vancouver. But that's
where you're at. Right?

That's where I'm at. Now. You're in Victoria. No,
Vancouver. Okay. It

could happen in Vancouver. I was thinking of
Victoria. But um I just I, Ifeel like if you put it in a
place where everyone's to go, italso seems like it invites
people who don't really want tobe there. Yeah, you make you put
it in Winnemucca Nevada. You'regonna get people that show up.

(01:24:40):
That means they want to bethere. You know what I mean? But
you do it in in in Vancouver andSeattle. Those are beautiful
towns that people want to go tolike, especially in late spring
or summer, early fall like Goddang

man, or Las Vegas there and I NFR Oh,

yeah, do it. Do If you're just gonna get a whole
bunch of people, which that'sfine, too, but we got to be
cognizant of the purpose, right?
The kinds of people we want toattract. Yeah. We want to
attract people who who are opento that. Yeah. Yeah, of course,
we're gonna get those who arejust chillin, but maybe it's

(01:25:21):
like Denver?

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good place think. Well, let's
keep this. Let's keep thisthought. Open. We're, we're not?
I think so. I think we're gonnaget to some comments about
ideas. I'd like to hear acritique of some listeners, just
throw us an email and say,

I can't wish our listeners with the jab was a
little bit mad like, yeah, Ididn't agree with you when you
said this. Yeah. Yeah. Like,

yeah, I

expected a little bit more backlash from the smoke
signals comment.

People, people love that episode. Man. I'm
hearing a lot of folks sayingthat was our best episode.

Oh, it's hard to beat. It's hard to beat dogs
land, man.

I know. Yeah.
That's a tough one. Yeah, sendus some comments. I did get a
few comments about someepisodes, saying that. The
caution of of mixing what methodand methodology is not Yeah, I
used. Yeah, there is adifference there.

Right. Whoever said that there is a difference in
method. And methodology. I usedto always say this, and maybe
whoever's listening who saidthat, correct me if I'm wrong,
but I used to always say how itstarts is a philosophy of
philosophy leads to a theory, atheory leads to a method and a
method leads to Oh, methodology,they go ology leads to a method.

Yeah, the methodology is what guides you
to the appropriate to method?

Yes, yes. Yeah.
Sorry. I said those backwards.
But yeah, that's what I meant tosay. But I, when we had the
research center, I used to saythat I don't know if you
remember this, I would say IRM.
To me, is still just aphilosophy. Yeah, yeah. It's a
research philosophy. Yeah.

I agree. And I've been, I've been sort of, through
my, through the past coupleyears, five years, I've been
jotting down somecharacteristics, I think that
are definitive of that. Researchphilosophy, I think. And we'll
we'll talk about that. One ofthese episodes, but but for now.

(01:27:50):
Yeah. Shoot us an email. Let usknow your thoughts and ideas
about this emerging idea. That'dbe cool. Man. And the Yeah,
correct. Us too. I want to hearthat. I want to hear that too.
And if you have any privatedonors, any wealthy What do you

(01:28:11):
call them? What do you callthem? The

sugar daddies.

Only wealthy sugar daddies? Well, by the by nature,
they're wealthy. Yeah. Let's doit. Let's do it, man. Okay.
That's it. Yeah, we started, westarted talking about songs. I
got all mixed up and what I wastrying to say.

And then I like it when we don't have a topic, man,

we don't want to talk about we don't want to talk
about nothing specific. Sosometimes,

I think sometimes there's a need for it. But I
think part of what this podcastdoes for me, it's like
therapeutic man.

Yeah. Get some ideas out. Well, and we didn't
mention that. Some of thecurrent stuff that's going on
right now. appear in Canada, andAmerica. The devastating news.
We didn't we didn't mention onebit of it. We don't want to
wait. What Wait, what?
Where are you? You don't know.
Your dad.

I don't have Facebook. And I don't watch the
news. Yeah.

You know, the whole Buffy Matthew Perry, the
Buffy Sainte Marie.
Deal? No,

I don't know what you're talking about. That's

awesome. And now Now we get to the end of it. So
no, you go Google some things.
And next episode, we'll talkabout it.

I don't want to talk about Buffy Sainte Marie I
don't either.

She she's not native. Yeah. Yeah.
Is that what it is? Yeah, shewas outed as a pretending

Oh, dude, if we're gonna start that then yeah,
whatever, dude. Yeah, whatever.
Do you want to pretend the endsthere are This is not leave new
singer alone. That's funnybecause I didn't know I just
said it. I just said it. I'mgonna say right here it doesn't

(01:30:09):
bother me one bit that BuffySainte Marie is not a native
because for one I doubt she sitsin a doubt she's making calls
with with tribal people. I doubtshe's sitting in ceremonies and
holding rights. more worriedabout these scholars, these guys
who claim to be something andthey're not they they want to
run Native studies departments.

(01:30:34):
They want to run like indigenousphilosophy departments, they
publish on behalf and it worksand it's like, I don't care if
you're non native and you donative research and you and you
do work with Native people justtell me that I'm okay with I
don't need you to be somethingyou're not I'm not going to
pretend to be something on mysmart escrow Indian kid that

(01:30:59):
hung out with the flatheads fora lot a lot of times I listen to
punk rock and reggae and I loveround dance music you know I
talk shit that's what I do

yeah, that's big issue when really addressed it
too much. Anyway, look on lookon your Yeah, Google something's
getting figured over I am wayOh, yeah
wasn't it the it was the goingback to it was a she sang that

(01:31:34):
song with Edmund bowl member.
Back to Canada.

Oh, anyway. darlin, darlin. Yeah. And she would hit
her guitar. Oh, yeah.

Anyway, let's wrap this.

Oh, you don't have to the whole Buffy part you
could take out yes

dum dum dum 60 years later find out what mostly
everybody then the

native gospel singers do. Come on. Let's do
that.
Let's get let's get the nativePentecost singer. A Cena run for
his money.

All Episodes

#48 - Drums, Dreams and Cultural Schemes: A Beatdown on Indigenous Conferences.

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#48 - Drums, Dreams and Cultural Schemes: A Beatdown on Indigenous Conferences.