#49 - Nakoa HeavyRunner Unplugged: The Life and Times of a Round Dance Alchemist - Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Shandin Pete (00:00):
Hello, hello.
Hello, this is Chandi and Petetribal research specialist.

Nakoa HeavyRunner (00:04):
Gotcha. All

right. As I was saying, yeah, the Indian man's a
complicated creature. You know,we can endure a lot of pain and
suffering a lot of adversity.
When it comes down to it, man,we're just we're crying inside

(00:25):
right?

Yeah, cry baby.

I like how you agreed that agreed with that
really? solemnly. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, like it almost madeyou cry.

Yeah, it's serious, serious business

I'm not here to make you cry. So let's pick the
mood up a bit. I know I had anerve. I hit a nerve. Cohen
nerve. You probably just gotdone fighting with your old
lady.
Record and she's like, What doyou mean? Then?
She got on your case. Yeah. Now?
Yes. You just you're justgetting it over with? Yeah,
based on music later, right.

(01:07):
Yeah, that's a nervous laugh.

Yeah, will will apologize later.

But But passive aggressively.

Aggressively keep the shoes on in the house.
You know that kind of stuff? Youknow?

No serious apology. Yeah.

(01:46):
We're gonna get deep. This isour 49th episode. You know that
49th 49th episode. Oh, man. I

like that number, you know, brings back
memories the full 49 It'sfitting. Yeah. It's fitting that
like, I mean, if I'd have knownthat I could have set up a green
screen. I could have had like anold car hood. You know, car
hoods behind.

You could you could have brought a car hood.
Aaron, can you hear me? Yeah. Ican. Clear is it loud and clear?
Yeah.

Aaron Brien (02:22):
Can you hear this?

What? No, I heard nothing. Silence silence. I hear
you though. Breathe in.

You might hear me later. Yeah, really? Good.
Really?

Yeah, that's rare.

Well, I didn't charge my computer got to be
kidding me. I wish I was in it.
Go. How's it going?

Hey, Aaron.
How are you?

I'm good. My cool sounds legit. I sound wack.

I know he sounds like I can hear I can hear you
loud and clear. Why is it yourvoice? Well, it's his voice he's
got that. He's got that I justhe's got that solemn I just got
in a fight with my lady becauseI have to record that night.
Yeah. Voice is they've beenyelling

kind of harsh doubt. You know?

You did you just get done saying hurtful things.

Yeah, hurtful things. That's we're just
talking about this is our 49thepisode. And the significance of
that is somewhat ironic. Yeah.
Because I kind of thought so.
Because that the song I wantedto share with you guys is

(03:52):
actually a little 40 Niner

Nice. Yeah. Aaron, are you with us? What's up?
Okay, not an old 49 Song How'sthat look, guys?

Oh, yeah, they're

like, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I like the sweater to thesweaters look nice

Old Navy Old Navy Playboy that's how you know your
agent is when you go to Old Navyand everything makes sense.
Yeah.

You look at the mannequin you say I want that. I
want that.

How the mannequin is that's what I want. Yeah.

Show me where that's at. Yeah, get it for me
get it down. Yeah, I thinkthat's my size.

I think the other I think the other sign of
aging is a little bit is oneyear. You wake up in the morning
and your, your your bro was textyou or you text them and you
realize it's like 530 That'sanother sign 530 in the morning
and texting with the bro was?

Yeah, two decades ago. Oh, that would have been
scenario.

One a bit.
Just

you send them a picture of your coffee. It's

classic classic. Oh

yeah, that's it, man. Yeah, man. I want you guys
listen to this. Once you guyslisten to this 40 Niner man,
this comes straight at you fromthe year 1976

I'm not gonna know it.

Yeah, I don't I don't know if I've heard it
either. But this is this is athis is the epitome of live
because this is recorded live ata 49 Aaron probably knows the
place because this was hisAboriginal territory.

There in the Crow Fair. I'm ready to work. I'm
ready. Yeah, yeah.

Here we go. Tell me if you can hear that

singing on the beat these these guys ain't sober

if you listen carefully, here's some Weezy in
there I can hear my dad andthey're wailing away

you're probably conceived.

I was ditched in the DB man I was due. But my
brother might have been Szantowas conceived

I never heard

Yeah, what think about that, man.

I'd like to know where you got that are you
know, how did you? Yeah. Did yourecover that from 76? That's
before we were born for our bornin a way for us

born before I was born for Aaron was born. I was
20. Yeah. So yeah, this wasrecorded by by my dad and my
mom. They were they inherited abunch of tapes from my dad
passed. And so I've been slowlydigitizing them and throwing
them up on YouTube. This is oneof them. Live Recording. Actual

(08:12):
409 Crow Fair. Where do theseWhere do these 49 is happened at
their Aaron?

back then? I mean, probably right in the camps.
Yeah, yeah. Right. Don'tremember to leggins
kind of became the spot, youknow, to leggins. Yes. Which is
actually a state park state parknow. What it was then what was
then I always thought it wasweird that it's on the roads,
but it's a little piece of statepark next to the river. So we go

(08:42):
there and give the countyjurisdiction over us, which is
weird. Wow. It was like, whynow? Not only now you go into
the state park, now the sheriffhas jurisdiction over you. Then
the BIA just waits for you outhere. So you're like what are we

better to do time and county than tribal?

I only went out there one time. Yes. Like me
probably the last year they had49 out there you know?

Well, yeah. That they don't do it. No more out
there than get banned.

No, dude. It's the wild west right in that camp,
man.

Yeah, not right now. Today. Really? Yeah.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with that
statement there.

I haven't seen Yeah, yeah. Okay. I suppose
that's that's sovereignty,right. Remember,

sovereign sovereignty
is the right to make decisionsthat are both good and bad,
right? That's

right. That's right. We've said that
sovereignty right to do good andbad. And for you to choose
whether that is good or bad.
Yeah. Well, cool, man. We gotNicola here on on on the line
and we've been trying to connectwith him for a while last time I
reached out and asked co if youwant to come on he said I'm

(10:12):
going to Canada. Not that whythey got Wi Fi up there with
what's all maybe he's going upthere illegally so you don't
want to be you know?

I wouldn't want to give the IP so

yeah, we got to kind of stay on the down traced
Yeah. But man, I wanted to ask aboth the actually one question
and what you think about this.
What's changed now you guys alittle bit younger than I am.
What's changed since your timesinging and seeing the Power

(10:51):
Hour slash round ends anythinganything associated what you're
familiar with, in things thatyou participate in? What's
changed from then. Until now?
Because I've been noting somethings and and I think it's a I
like to know what what you whatyou've noticed. But Aaron, let

(11:13):
me know. Then we'll let theworld give Nicole chest.
Think it over?

That's a lot, man.

Well, how about just one or two things?

Remote drums?
The Remos? Well, yeah, when Ifirst started singing
and even kind of startedroundabouts and I haven't been
singing as long as you guys butRemos Remos Amarna thing. That's
something simple. Yeah. And thenI remember the first time I seen
remote drums and it was a guynamed Gabby corral. Yeah, I
think we talked about that

we talked about last episode. Yeah. But yeah,
but

it was remote drums. Well,

besides that one.
Because we talked about it.

Maybe the influx of like solo rounds and singing.

That's gone and went. Yeah. Well, yeah, cuz

when I first started singing, I guess Edmund
ball was probably like the onlyguy. There was a little bit like
McGilvery in green. They werekind of doing some stuff similar
with you. For the most part. Itwas like I'm still groups, man.
Oh, man. We all live through thebig river Cree fad, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And

how everyone pretends they weren't fans now.
That's that's the part.

I wasn't even into nihilism. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

I mean, there's that I could say but go ahead.
Yeah.

No, man, I gotta add to that. You notice a
bigger decreased song came on?
Yeah. Tonight. Ah, I think itwas my wife was playing some
Pandora or something our ourSpotify or something. Anyway,
one of the songs Good morning.
pure nostalgia, man. I mean,talk about taking you back a
little bit. Yeah, it's been awhile. I'm telling you one man.

(13:07):
Over and over. I was a I was abig I was a big fan a large you
know, I actually got him to do atrack on one of my albums, you
know, really living up there fora bit. Yeah. So I went and he
happened to be shacked up on onthe rez that I was at. So I
yeah, I went and seen him andasked him if he'd lay track
down. So yeah, man, is thatrecently larger? No, this was

(13:31):
not about 15 years ago. 16 yearsago. Which

album is that on?
Now? It's called Indian Summer.
Oh, Indian Summer. Okay. Yeah,he,

he come when did he come and did a track
there. And we just did it in thehouse. You know, we didn't have
access to anywhere where we wereall just kind of hanging out on
a resume there. Yeah. But yeah,he came over and in, he laid a
song right there. And, you know,it was pretty cool. I mean,
because, you know, we wetraveled for so many miles and
yeah, that was definitely on thetop playlist there. But it was

(14:04):
there. Yeah.

So you guys didn't go into the bathroom into the
shower and recorded

the stairwell thing came after? Yeah.

Yeah. That was before the stairwells. Yeah,
no, but, you know, I mean, youknow, a lot is a, you know, a
lot has changed. It's kind oflike what Aaron was talking
about. But one of the thingsthat I guess stands out to me as
though it really did seem like adifferent vibe back in. Like, I
want to say the 90s was adifferent era, you know, from

(14:40):
music, and even, I mean, justthe vibe of being at a powwow
was different. And I just think,and I'm not knocking this or
saying it's a bad thing, but Ithink the level of competition
has risen so high. I mean, youknow, I mean, the people honing
in that not talent is neverthere. Only next level, you

(15:01):
know, and, you know, it didn'tseem like, you know, 90s it was
kind of, we weren't reallytrying to perfect the sound like
that we were just, it was kindof kind of freestyle, you know,
everyone just just cut just cuthard and you know, and but now

(15:21):
it seems like, you know, the,you know, some of these groups,
these top notch groups, it'salmost like, like perfection
almost, you know, I mean, it'salmost robotic Man, these guys
are next level for sure. Andyeah, being, which is a good
thing. I mean, I'm not sayingthat's a bad thing, but it's
just the, but you know, ofcourse, you know, back in the
90s, you know, it was rare toeven see a $5,000 Singing

(15:42):
Contest for first place. I mean,I remember that was one of the
first times that ever came outwas in, in the mid 90s. And
everyone was like, kind offreaking out like, oh, yeah,
5000 bucks, you know, and, youknow, now it's, it's like, kind
of like 15 to 20 is kind ofpretty standard. You know,
that's what, so that's one ofthe main things that I've seen,
that's really kind of changed,but it also changed the vibe a

(16:04):
little bit. Right. You know,it's a little different vibe.

Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, seeing that evolution, manis, is has been quite a thing.
And, you know, like you said,it's not it's not bad. I don't
think that for some people, youknow, you have those one people
who say, I don't like power nomore. And you know, because they
said, change, but I think thatnatural evolution, like I said,
it's natural. I think there it'sgood. Not just that just

(16:29):
happens. I just,I Oh, yeah, go ahead.
No, I was just gonna say I gotthis one memory of Nicole, I
wanted to mention, because I sayit often, in certain
circumstances, and it's kind ofreflective of what you're
talking about, like this, thevibe from the 90s knows that.
Fort Hall one time. This was,uh, this must have been not it

(16:51):
wasn't the 90s but as earlyearly 2000s, you know, and we
just chat and you know, and andthen something about you, Mr.
Gay pay, and you're really upsetby it. And he said, Man, that
this committee has got it. Oh,man, I've got I've got mouths to
feed. You know, that's, that'ssort of the definition of that

(17:17):
what you're talking about, youshow up to Power us, you get
some day pays enough to feedeverybody. And you know, maybe a
little gas to go home. But youweren't looking to you know, win
1000s or 1000. Even you're thereto enjoy singing your songs here
and new songs. I mean, there wascompetition then too, but like
for the for the everyday singer.
It was this man. We're gonnashow up and we're gonna jam and

(17:39):
yeah, we know we're gonna get alittle money. Yeah, that's
pretty awesome, man. Prettyawesome. Yeah, I was gonna say
Aaron for sure. When?

Now you got me thinking of like, the vibe, the
vibe of singing, you know? Yeah.
So I hate to say this, but likemy, the first time I listened to
any of the cause music. Yeah, Iwas. I got I was drinking. So I
remember it

was just a time.
Go ahead.

Say your name. And I remember.
I remember buying those. Theyweren't even like, high class
kind of CDs. They were like theregular burden CDs with like,
the paper labels on them. Yeah,like,
one of them was yours. Can't geta weapon.
I bought it. And I was like, Iwas like, I'm gonna check this

(18:41):
out, man. And I remember becauseit was the same day I bought a
blackbull Jr. CD. Yeah. And itwas kind of like the same. And
he was jamming with them then Ithink I'm not exactly. I can't
remember. But

we started them.
Right.

Well, that was like you right.

That was that was Nikola. Right. You started.
That's your drum? Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
So I remember being

humble. He's being humble. He's, that's my drums.

Here's the route.
Virgin. kinome Bacardi razz,they're like, we've been going
knows him. He knows we're justcruising the backroads and we've
done my gig and a co like overit over and over and over.

(19:35):
I overdid it on that recordingbut I remember that was like my
first real introduction thatlater the later and you know,
met met you and stuff but thenyou asked us to record in we
recorded into your living room,but I would say for me as far as
singing, I was, I would say,would contest singing that seem

(20:00):
like them old school cats theywere. Their Foundation was non
contest, right? So really, afterabout 2005 Six was like the
first generation of people whotheir only Foundation was
contest singing. Like you reallysee like Song style change, you

(20:22):
sing, you see, like, the songsare now being composed for the
contests where before it waslike, you were just you're just
singing tunes people are makingbecause it was kind of I
remember like in the 90s, like,Mystic River and Black was so
and like, of course, blackstone, and it was more vibey it

(20:43):
was like the style was and therewasn't so much talk about
contempt and straight then Idon't remember people really
having these like discussions.
It was just singing, right?
People were singing, and you'remaking cool songs, and then you
would sing those songs in acontest. Then after a certain
time, it was like, No, you'remaking songs for the contest.
And it seems like to me the songstructure. Even the way they

(21:07):
sound change quite a bit and Idon't personally necessarily
think it was offered a good Idon't some of them songs are
like they sing a one time likeone summer Oh, yeah, they're
gone. Yeah, like, man, there'ssome classic tunes that need to
be like, people need to grow uphearing the songs. You know,
like, Yeah, but it's like thatpart of it's gone. So like if

(21:28):
somebody there's a recording onYouTube from 2018 Blackstone
singing like a song from thatfort to Shane recording. Oh,
yeah. Yeah, dude, as soon as Iheard it, I was like, oh, it's
like nostalgia. Right? Yeah,flashback. But then, and then I
thought of like, oh, and Ibought Blackstone live at Fort
the shame and like, what colormy tape look like and

(21:51):
everything. Then I startedthinking about kids aren't gonna
grow up with that. Yeah, songsare songs are like, you sing
them and then you throw themout. You sing them and then you
throw them out. You sing them,you throw them out. They're not
like, you don't think of like,the songs on bring memories
like, like that white clayrecording just some white clay

(22:12):
put us a snap of the tape. Thatwhite. First thing I thought of
was that that tune that realcontempt tune under that John
John made? And I was like, oh,man, I remember white clay and
then maybe think of white claysingers. Right? And you kind of
have this whole thing, but Idon't. I don't think young
people are getting it. It'sdifferent for them.

Oh, yeah.
Yeah, for sure. No, that'sdefinitely something that I've
noticed too. But with that isthe power. Unless everything
sped up like that. And it's kindof like loud these songs they
do. And then, you know,especially some of them are,
like you said, our shouldn't beclassics. And they should hang

(22:55):
around three, four or fiveseasons, you know, and but
that's almost like, the level ofcompetition. It's almost like,
it's, I don't know, if it's thecompetition that's doing it. But
it's almost like, someone feelmaybe that they're looked down
on at they're repeating a songalmost. And it's like, yeah,
it's like, you know, man, let itlet it hang around a little bit,

(23:16):
you know, like, they sing youonce and it's in, it's gone. You
know, and, but it is, it'sreally nice to hear some of them
old songs that come back fromthe 90s. And you know, one of
the things that we've beeninterested in really lately is
we're actually going through alot of our old round and songs
and old albums, and taking someof our favorite songs off of

(23:39):
there. Because just our levelof, of technology at the time,
it just, it's what we had. And,you know, in and technology
itself has taken leaps andbounds even in the last 10
years. And, you know, some ofthese albums that we put out
round dance wise are like 20years old. And so we're going
back and then, you know, this isthese are just within the last

(24:01):
two weeks, these are discussionsthat we've been having with some
of my little singing familyhere. Like my son, my daughter,
my cousin Raj comes in, comes inrecords as well. And and that's
what we've been talking about,we were like, Hey, let's bring
back some of these old songsthat we 20 years ago, because
there's a whole generation thathasn't heard. So it's like it's

(24:22):
like new to them, but but alsoin that it's allowing us to to
take that old you know, song inthat old recording, which wasn't
very good, but I mean, it wasokay for its time, you know,
that it came out but like if youcompare that to our work
nowadays, it's night and day,right? And so we just kind of

(24:43):
lead like, let's modernize it,let's let's bring it into to
modern times with the with thesoftware's that we had there.
Just the capabilities that wehave now, you know, and so
that's really interesting. Andthat's because in I'm kind of on
that thing is it's a matter ofbringing it does it bring back a
lot of those old feelings andtimes and stuff. Yeah, we're
even doing that with some of theold powwow songs. So, it's funny

(25:07):
Aaron brought up, you know,Blackstone because, you know, I
reached out to, like Randy andelmen There's some old 90 songs
that that, man, I was just, I, Iloved them. And yeah, I was
like, you know, Can I Can I do aversion of this? Or can we put
out a version of this kind ofsame thing to record it kind of

(25:28):
keep it alive, you know? Andthose songs are like, you know,
Geez, 30 years old. You know, Imean, talking early 90s and
stuff. So I was like, in therejust classics, right?

Yeah. That's the sound of That's the sound of
bacon cooking. That sound ofbacon cooking reminds me of one
of your songs. Oh, yes. You knowwhat I'm talking about? Yeah,

that's exactly. So yeah, man. We gotta
we had to do it. We werecreative. We didn't have the we
didn't have the technology wehave now. In the sound bites we
have access to make our own. Youknow, we wanted rain, so why
not? Bacon was frying and we putthat mic right over it and

it didn't work. I think most people probably think
it's rain.

You know, I thought it was rain. I thought
it was like a soundbite or aclip. You guys got it? It was
one of my daughters who wasmentioned it we're talking about
songs or salt mixes. Oh, yeah.
That song with the bacon fryingus. What are you talking about?
You know, Nikolas core song whenthey start out talking and then
there's bacon frying thatthere's that the fight was was

(26:45):
you know, over? You know, theywere fighting while they were
cooking breakfast.

It was it was fighting over who got that last
week? And yeah.

I think that's the I think that's even the
recording. I was talking about,like that same album. Yeah. 20
years old now. Right.

Yeah, that was even over. You know, it's,
it's, it'll be 20. Because if wereleased it in Oh, four. So it's
going to be 24? Hopefully,

yeah. What's the title of that album? So

those are major listening. It's called
winds of change. Oh, that'sright. winds of change called
winds change. Yeah. Yeah. And

that's awesome code to go over the round dance world
for a while, man.

He's still he's still got it. Right. What? Okay,
so here doing new stuff. Yeah.
Okay, go ahead.

I'll say this. All right. All right. This is my
give kudos to the guests speech.

Oh, yeah. Well build them up. We're gonna buff
him up. He's kind of slouching.
Now he's slouching, right? Yeah.
At Mike's gonna go up a bit. Getto it. So 2025

years ago? Yeah.
Like, every single was Canada,right? When it came to round
dancing. For me, it was likelittle island crease, like go
right? Like I just yeah, that'sthe pinnacle of round dead
singing. moves some and ofcourse is right there. But for
me, what got me into singing wasthe violin Cree bunch. So we
started singing, hanging out inthe bedroom singing China's

(28:09):
sound and horrible and then nowsound horrible again, like back
to Sony horrible again. But um,we didn't have Montana didn't
have their guy. So like, youlook at certain provinces, and
it was like, Oh, they have theyhave the northern Cree dudes or
Kenpo Yak. Or like even marklong, John, right. Like,

(28:33):
everyone's kind of looking atthis round dance in chief. And
even like Washington had like,the scarier boys.

Yeah, so why do you go? No. Why do you go? Why
do you go around dances rememberthat was one

of the songs of the bear Hills was probably one of
the My favorite class. But um,when koa came out, it was like,
Oh, here's this Montana guy. Andthen then we had our Montana
round dance singer. So likeyeah, like, for sure, man. I
think that there's a wholegeneration of rounded singers

(29:08):
out there for one either areinfluenced by Nikola or they
have no idea like he was doingit before. People like making
round dancer thing. I thinkthere was a lot of guys who
could sing round dance. And theywere pretty good at it. Like man
like Paulo Standing Rock, likeHoly smokes,

man. Yeah, yeah.

The guy who led the guy who led a song from the
stands.

Yeah, epic.
Like yeah, so cool. It kind ofbecame the round dance and so
then that means your Eagle calfkind of became the round dance
facilitator for the Yeah,region. Yeah, it was cool, man.
Yeah,

Eagle cap is your studio to call? Yeah,

but Well, yeah, yeah, that was um, you
know, we did we did everythingunder you. know that our own
label, which was Eagle calfrecords of, you know, and, you
know, I'll be honest with youpart of that was when when we
started doing when we decidedthat I was going to do my first
solo album. Yeah, we were wewere seriously though, I mean,

(30:20):
I'm not trying to be funny, wewere so broke, you know, we
couldn't pay attention. So Icouldn't, I couldn't pay anybody
to, to to help me in any way, Ijust didn't have the funds, it
just wasn't there. So, in that Imean, in, in now, you know, in
the present day, I'm verygrateful for it. But you know,
at the time, I had to learn tonot only be the audio guy that

(30:43):
has to, you know, hey, where doyou put this mic? How do you,
you know, what's the best sound?
How do you. So I had to learnall of that, but then it goes
into the next phase. And that'sjust that's just the recording
part. And then it goes into themastering phase. And that's
like, learning all the, youknow, the software's and in the
mastering, you know, part of itand even to this day, I mean, I

(31:03):
don't care how good of a mixermaster somebody is, with the
software. It can do more thanthen. I mean, it's, it's really
amazing. The technology hasgrown so so much, but But
anyway, I'm, I was getting outis, you know, we had to learn
every step of this way. So notonly do we have to be, did I

(31:24):
have to learn how to be audioguy, but I had to learn how to
do the mastering, then I had tolearn how to design it, you
know, so I had to dive intographics and all this stuff. And
then from there, then I had tolearn how to be a manufacturer,
meaning I had to learn how tomake it. Yeah, make the actual
product that we could, you know,put out that's like, how do you
print on the CDs? How do youwrap it? How do you and we had,

(31:45):
I'm telling you, we got somehumble beginnings. I mean, we
used to use the doors. You eversee those commercials for those
vacuum foods. That's what thatwas our first sealer that we
made our bags with, we would buyour shrink wrap and rolls like
big, big rolls. And, and then wewould just, you know, cut it cut

(32:05):
a square out. And we'd have tomake all four sides. So it's not
like we ordered bags, it's likewe had to make all four sides.
And then, but anyway, so yeah,so we ended up you know, having
to learn how to be amanufacturer, but then we had to
turn around. And the final stepwas how do we get it to market?
You know, and that was just,that was just straight guerrilla

(32:26):
marketing. I mean, just boots onthe ground. Yeah, door to office
to office store to store fees.
You

had that? You always had a bag every always
had a bag.

Yeah, yeah.
So like, the whole process frombeginning to end is is, is it's
a huge process to do all that.
But I had to learn how to do allthat. And then slowly, over the
years with each album with eachartists that I ever worked with,
I learned more and more and itjust, you know, started to

(32:58):
improve. Now, not only was theskills improving, but the also
the technology and the stuff isalso improving. You know,
there's, there's better bettersoftware's coming out. There's
more control that you have overthe over the course of better
recorder. I mean, that was, youknow, the biggest leap for me as
far as in fact, Shawn, do youhave a multitrack recorder

(33:23):
before I did? And I rememberactually driving? Yeah, we were
driving to your house in themiddle of a winter storm one
night to borrow it because yeah,we were going to record society.
But anyway, our gas tank frozeup that night, believe it or
not, yeah. It was a farmer whopulled over save. I mean, who
knows what would happen butyeah, he pulled over says to
gold to be out here. He gave usa ride. And we got the car

(33:46):
running. Eventually. And we justturned around and went back
home. But yeah, but yeah, sothat was a huge leap when I got
my first multitrack recorder.
That was huge. Yeah.

Yeah. Remember the the mini disc. That's what he
was recording on? Was? Yeah, themini disc. You still got the
mini disc masters laying around.

I do I have some I have some of them. Yes.
Yeah. The old Mini. The MiniDiscwas a was was a huge. I mean for
for that time period. You know,20 years ago, that was 16 bit
sound, you know, yeah. And so itwas CD quality recording coming
in, which was new to us. And Ithink back then the mini disc

(34:29):
recorder was probably around 400bucks, you know, and yeah, those
of you who are born in Born andraised and grew up on a raised
400 bucks, man that's likeequivalent to like, you know,
2000 bucks. Today, you know whatI mean?

Yeah, unheard of to spend 400 on anything. Yeah,

yeah, it was.
I mean, no one didn't have thatkind of cash. But when we got
our hands on a mini discrecorded out, that's you know,
we were we were feeling we werefeeling hot, you know 20 Bros
have a mini disc recorder.

You Yeah, yeah, I remember that time you guys came
over and recorded in thebasement there. That was you and
your uncle and I can't rememberwho else. But you guys recorded
that one song. I don't know ifthat ever made it onto any of
your albums, but that's prettynice song you guys recorded
there.
Oh, I still have it.

Oh man, remember?

No send it to you.
I bet I never I'd bet you'dnever put it on in the album's
he brought it up. I don't evenremember it.

That's true.
I probably have to relearn it.
Yeah, I'd have to relearn.

I'll give it to you. I'll get it. Yeah. It's a
good one is what you're gonnasay, Aaron.

No, I just remember when you had that. Oh, yeah,
that recording stuff. All thatrecording stuff at your place?
Yeah, Missoula. It would havebeen Missoula, then. Yeah,
that's

right down. That sorry. Nicole came to my little
Missoula house. They'redownstairs in that basement. You
guys recorded down there too. init. I recorded a couple of wack
tracks. They're listening to oneof them the other day? Yeah.
Underground. Underground. Yeah.

We actually recorded in your, in your house.
I remember. Me Bronson MacDonaldand Jordan. A song ACOA showed
us. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and I but I,man, I don't I will couldn't
remember the song right now oranything, but I remember

that all those

good ones. But it was just for fun. It was like we
were just messing around like,yeah, yeah, to homie that had
some shit to record. You know?
Like, yeah, let's go check aboutthe school. Check it out. You
know? Not it's pretty good tome. To me. I feel like singing.
That's what I'm always chasingnow. Is that that feeling from
that time where singing waslike, man, it was fun. You know,

(36:45):
it was cold. And it seemed coldall the time. I don't know why.
The back of my head was cold allthe time. And it was like, he
always had an drum around. Healways had a couple of sticks.
And yeah, you were just youcrack a tune out anywhere, man
and anywhere.

Remember to remember the debate about the
sort of the purest, the purestdebate, who would say oh, no, if
you're going to record youshouldn't put any effects on. It
should be pure to be your voice.
feverish if you put echo inthere or delay anything. You're
taking the spirit from thatsong? You remember people saying
that stuff? Do you remember? No,

no, I didn't.
I didn't have to. But we stillhave to like my very first round
dance album that I ever put out.
Called Brown Dance time. Irecorded it in Rock Hall and for
Washakie. And it was in a hugeroom. Yeah, so it had this
natural echo and I mean, becausewe didn't I you know, my first

(37:50):
one I didn't have access toreverb or nothing. Everything
was we had to create. I mean, Iwish we would have thought of
the stairwells back then.

Still took overdue.
Yeah. Yeah, that's all I got.
Yeah,I got a burning question for you
in a core. Yeah. Do you everlisten to any songs on any of
the albums you made? And thenthink, Ah, God, damn, why did I
record that?

Um, well,

everyone, your baby.

I don't, I don't, I don't really have a
problem with any of the songs iswhat it is what makes me cringe
is the recordings. That's whatthat like, like, I pull up some
old music and I'm like, Ah, man,Ash is no good. I mean, but no,
I got I got no problem with thesongs. It's just, like, you

(38:49):
know, knowing you know, just,we've advanced so far, you know,
right, with the with thesoftware's and, like, in fact,
this just happened in today's Iposted a an old song off of that
album. In fact that when tochange album, yeah. And, and,
and we I was looking for itbecause I was teaching it to my
daughter. And she was like, Whosong is that? You know? And I

(39:11):
said, that's the, that's mysong. I say, here. I'll show it
to you. And I pulled it up andstart playing it. I couldn't
believe it. I'm like, what isit? Like, what am I listening to
right now? But yeah, you gotta

but even for people who saying or are actively
listen to music like that. Thestandard was so low because
yeah, we listened. We werewilling to listen to tapes
recorded on like littlerecorders that cracky sound
mono. Even when your stuff cameout. It was like holy shit, man.
Like, yeah, you can hear it likeit's, you know, sounds full. So

(39:48):
like our standard was so lowlike these guys that will never
know what it's like to like,record a tape at Apollo, you
know? Yeah,because, yeah, even your iPhone,
the iPhone.
One sounds better than probablysome of them. Recordings back
then. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, yeah, for real. Yeah. You know,
what's funny, though, is, youknow, at the time when that when
we first put that CD out, whento change we were, we were like,
talking, we're awesome. We're soproud of it, right? Like, you
know, how we were able to addsome reverb and stuff in there.
We're so proud of it. And wewere me and my cousin, were

(40:27):
actually talking right after wewas all done. And we were
saying, How are we going to topthis? You know, how are we? Now
we look back on and it's, it'sabsolutely funny to, you know,
to think that we're like, howare we going to, you know,
pretty easy.

(40:51):
Yeah, just say, Hey, girl was agirl was in the evolution of
that has been pretty wild to seehow fast because you know, prior
to that, you know, Shawn Dean, Iknow you've grown up with,
you've seen the technology growa little bit, right, you know,
you've seen that kind of fromthe cassette tapes, and then it
kind of gets into even likeinternet, things like that, you

(41:14):
know, margin action right here.
So, you know, we were there in abirth of the thing, right? And
yeah, so we kind of seen how tohow advanced and how these
things take took leaps andbounds within, you know, just a
couple of decades, compared towhat what internet was 20 years
ago, man, I mean, no one was onit yet, even phones and all this
stuff. But that jump within thelast 20 years, it has been so

(41:36):
rapid. And it's it's verysimilar with like, software's
and, you know, recording stufflike that. It's, it's, it's
similar, like, those have alsotaken leaps and bounds with some
of the capabilities. It'samazing. Yeah, I mean, as a, as
an audio engineer, it's amazingwhat some of the stuff that they

(41:57):
the capabilities that they

have you ever considered doing more like, just
because you got the equipmentand stuff more like ethnographic
stuff, like starting to recordlike, in, like, traditional
music, like more, just for notfor production, but just for
like, preservation, just becauseyou do understand sound so much

(42:22):
like, we don't really haverecordings like that, that are
that quality, you know, like,Yeah, have you ever have you
considered that kind of stuff?
Uh,

no, no, I mean, I absolutely have man in
here. In fact, it's cool thatyou bring that up. Because so
we, we built a studio here, inthis is where we do a lot of our
our, like, music stuff, right,right here. But but one of the
things, you know, we're workingon a project right now. Well, I

(42:51):
am. And it's an Indian educationtool is what it is. And so we're
working with storytellers. Andthey've come in and started
sharing some of these stories.
And because we built it, it'sbuilt for schools, right, it's
built for we wanted to, to sharesome of the stories like like,
the origination of Paulo, wheredid the story behind that? Where
did that come from? You know,and, and then just other light

(43:13):
things, the you know, the so Istarted with a Cinnabon series,
because that's who I had accessto right away, like, like, you
know, right now I can I can, youknow, my uncle is one of our
storytellers. And so I said, Youknow what, I'm going to do a
little Cinnabon series. Andwe're going to Hill Hill Hill,
then he did, he came in, and werecorded, he shared some of the

(43:34):
stories even shared a couplesongs, some old songs. And, and
then there's also we're kind of,you know, branching out into a
great plane series. With it, butthis, this has been been heavily
in the talks here for the lastfour months, actually, probably,
since we've, since we've gottenthis education tool together.

(43:55):
And we have enough right now,to, to launch. I mean, we
launched this year for schools.
And so we are, we were talkingabout how do we grow this thing?
And how do we be able to come toother raises and, and, you know,
work with their storytellers, orsome of their, like, Song

(44:16):
makers, and, you know, whateverthat may be. And that's what it
kind of falls under falls underthe, it's, it is a form of
preserving, right. And so thatwas kind of the angle we were
looking at is you know, maybe wecan talk to some maybe different
programs or even the tribesitself and say, look, here's
this thing that we're doing butat the same time, you know, if

(44:38):
you guys want to preserve someof the stuff, you know, we can
help do that and whether youwant to share it or not out that
will be up to you guys. Yeah,you know, they can they can just
take it keep it if they want,you know, they don't have to
share it. But yeah, but yeah, sothat's kind of been been a huge
topic here for us is really doesit falls under that

(44:58):
preservation, you know,

Hmm, that's a strange one. And it when he
talks about this idea ofpreservation, you know, there's
this, just like I was sayingabout that debate about the
purest, you know, singing versusthe edited, you know, or the
augmented in a certain way. AndI just remember that that sort
of debate going on, I sort ofstarted when Randy Woods was

(45:23):
doing his, you know, some of hisfirst solo albums, and only they
were, they were pretty good, youknow, and then, you know, it
kind of, he kind of starteddoing something different. And
people didn't like it too. Well,some people didn't like it a
whole lot, too much editing andall that. But this in the same
regard that you were talkingabout, but preservation of
stories and those kinds ofthings, you know, there's always

(45:44):
that, that audience out therethat says, well, these things
ought not to be shared in thatmanner. An example would be, you
know, archives these days arerequiring tribal consent for,
for, you know, old songs and oldstories that were recorded.
Whereas before, you know, youcould go back a decade, and you

(46:07):
could just request those things,and they just send them to you
without consulting the tribalgroup. Those kinds of things.
Yeah. So, um, I guess in thatway, you know, it's the
restriction on things kind ofcauses a dilemma for those who
want to learn and know. Yeah, soone of the debates today is, you
know, well, we'll even beforeall that, should these kinds of

(46:30):
things even be recorded? Shouldthey be documented in that way?
And some people say they oughtto be practiced, not recorded.
Now, I don't share in that, butI'm curious what your thoughts
are, if and if you've heard thatsort of debate?

For sure.
Yeah. Well, that's, that's, uh,you know, I, you know, I can see
both sides of that. And yeah,and I can even agree with both
sides, you know, so I'm not, I'mnot really staunch on one side
of the fence on that, I respectthat, that side of it. But I
also know that from, you know,my belief that it's, it's a, we

(47:05):
are in a different time, justlike powwows evolve, it's like
music and all this stuff. Imean, whether whether you want
it to or we want it to or not,it's going to evolve every year,
it's going to, and so we're in atime now where like, our kids
and stuff that they've at all,like this, this, this technology
has been there since the beforethey were born. Yeah. And so in

(47:28):
a lot of times, this is how theyengage. And this is how they
learn is via, you know, video,and things like that. And we
kind of, you know, I come fromthe view of, of, you know, we
need to use what, what's whatworks, right? Because, you know,
sometimes we do get stuck inthat old mentality, and it'll

(47:49):
keep us stuck, it'll, it'll keepus all stuck. You know, and
unless we're willing to comeforward and share a little bit,
and, and, you know, do ourlittle part, you know, that's
kind of how I see it. And so,yeah, that's kind of one of the
big, big, you know, thingsthere, but, but I also agree,
like with, you know, like, someof the things that like, like,

(48:12):
you know, like, ceremonial typestuff, sacred type stuff, you
know, I do believe that, that,that, that's not for everybody,
right, you know, so I, I totallyrespect that, like, you know,
only you know, you know, so Ilook at it more like the lighter
stories, like, you know, if wecan get, like, where did the

(48:33):
hand game come from, like,that's, we can share with the
world, you know, what I mean?
Right, you know, the grassdance, the, you know, different
dances and powers, and eitherthese are more social things,
you know, you know, the ringtailed around dance, and, you
know, some of these stories, youknow, those to me, I feel should

(48:54):
be shared. Because these are,these are dances that our
children participate in. And,you know, one of the things that
inspired me even when I startedto even started building this,
this little library of storieswas, I was taking my daughter to
school one day, and she's was atthe time, this was like, three

(49:14):
years ago when she was in, she'sin sixth grade. And, and she
asked me, she said, Dad, youknow, we we live on a
reservation, I go to school on areservation, and I learned
nothing needed. gonna sell. Youknow, she said, I've danced
since I was a tiny tot. Andwhere did that come from? Where

(49:35):
did Powell come from? And inthat moment, in that moment, I
realized that even as a father,I'm not sharing that thing down
to even my own children. Some ofthese stories so anyway, that
was part of the art of that.
That inspiration was like, whywhy are we not sharing this this
stuff with our children? Youknow, and they even actively

(49:58):
participate have paid in it.
Right? You know, we, we set ourkids up in a dance and they
don't even know where this camefrom, what is it? Yeah. And so
I'm like, you know, what, we, weneed to get this, we need the I
need to get these stories and weneed to share them and, and and
get it to the students. Youknow, the that's that was my

(50:18):
kind of vision for the projectwas we we have to get to the
students because because we'rewe're losing even some of the
basic stuff, you know what Imean? And yeah. And understand
there's levels to it, you know,there's their ceremonies and
things like that, that, that,that people do that? Yeah, many
people on the reservation won'texperience. Right, that's, uh,

(50:40):
you know, maybe a smaller groupthat that that participates.
Yeah. So you know, so is that,you know, that kind of stuff,
you know, definitely, you know,that that should be done, you
have to live it, you know, youneed to go in and learn that in
in person. You know, that's howyou learn those things. But, but
like, the general stories andstuff, the social aspects, I
feel we should, we shouldn't besharing. Oh, yeah.

So important, so important to do. And those
blocks, you know, that we getsort of from, from the past, you
know, we, we kind of beensubjected to some things that,
you know, people take stuff fromus and right, or even
eliminating it, you know, that'skind of seems like one of the

(51:25):
reasons why we have thatsecrecy, you know, because we
don't want to get caught in iteven it even morphs into other
things today, it's our ownregulations and rules, you know,
we get in trouble for talkingabout certain things, you know,
but, man, it's not gonna, it'snot gonna live on if we don't,
you know, be as pretty and we'vetalked about that before on

(51:49):
these previous episodes, Aaronand I about that whole whole
debacle and kind of where we'reat. Yeah, man. So I got this
thing. I got this thing becauseI got them. I got to not not too
shabby round dance singers.
Aaron thinks he thinks he'saverage and all that. But he's I

(52:10):
heard him sing some decent songsand make some decent songs. Oh,
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Has and he'smaking his face. He's making
this kind of trying to be humblefaced bad or I don't know.
Because I do that. No, this iswhat I want. Now Now you're a
skilled singer. And you know alot of songs and you know how to

(52:35):
make you know how musicians canyou know, they got sort of a
mastery of of this of music in away that they can make a song
sound happy. Oh, man, make thesame song. sound sad. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Yeah, man songright. Roundup. Yeah, so I got I
got this. Like, let's take asome lyrics and let's see if we

(52:59):
can do this. Because I want theaudience to hear I want the
audience to hear this. That themastery of singing where you can
make a song sad, same, same,same words. almost same tune,
and make it sound sad. Happy.

We were okay. Okay, you're gonna make me sing your
singing? No, you are

well, okay, well, no, we're gonna we're gonna get
you to say not feeling so shy.
Let's think of these lyrics now.
Now think of the most commonbeginning to around dance song.
What would you say that was?
Aaron will go Aaron and we'll goNicole. What's the most common
words for around dance songEnglish words for round dance
song the beginning. The firstones that come to your tear

(53:47):
head.

Like,

don't think about it too long to say. Oh,

my baby or Oh sweetie.

Yeah, yes.
Okay. Okay. Nicole is gonna sayokay. Same thing. Yeah,

the one I wrote down was a baby. Don't cry.
That's the one I'm gonna do thismyself a baby. Don't cry. Baby
Don't Cry. I would say okay, no,my sweetheart. Well, that's
mine. That's not the one Ithought oh, no,

I'd say I would say Oh, baby. Oh cry. And then you
gotta say you and I. Okay,

let's do that one.
Okay, are you okay with that?
Nicola? Yeah. Oh, baby, don'tcry. You and I said what you
said Yeah. Yeah. So now Nikolasyou and

you and dies it like every it's either you and I
are grammatically incorrectversion. Yeah.

Well, it has to be if it's grammatically correct.
It all make sense. Yeah. Okay.
So now Nicole is going to add onto this the second most or
something that seems to makesense with Oh, Baby, don't cry.
You and I can of course God he'sgot it. pencil he's writing it
down he's got this he's got it I

need to stand in a pencil we'll get your pen pencil
I need a pen and

yeah we're writing this down okay oh baby

Squeezy Well Baby

Don't Cry you

and I found a note cards do that do man or

power bill envelope oh
yeah oh baby don't cry

I know backup I go back up to to rhyme okay
yeah right I'm thing with cry

yeah that's what I do too

so what are your goals so far we got oh
maybe don't cry you and I we'vetried and tried that's what I
got

we've tried and

try and try so some so memorable looking
both you know to be able to doit happy and yeah

yeah this is this is a good

time to enter a straight break in the lyrics so
yeah yeah don't cry well maybeyou will die we've tried and
tried hey

hey yeah Why do you spell Hey H H A AHAYA No I'm
just kidding

it's hey ho we

a yawn oh we okay the last lyric well I
won't go through because wedon't want to get too crazy the
lat the end or can we end ithere we could be just the short

end with some in fact if you want to go back to
like the 90s you it wassomething that almost doesn't
even match the beginning part

yeah it doesn't make much sense it sounds cool
right? Yeah. Oh Baby Don't Cryyou and I we tried and tried
Yeah, like to the mountainswe're gonna go or at least
doesn't make no sense.

It's kind of like kind of like random

Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Oh Baby Don't

Cry down the lonely road I go

you end I weave.
Now we could even say we try itand try it now. We've tried and
tried. You wouldn't hear thatright? We've tried it now. We we
dropped the

weave. That same color job. Some sophisticated
language there.

It didn't. It did.
We tried.

And tried.

What's the end?
Let's let's see. Let's all comeup with one. We'll see if it's
the same. We tried and tried.

It will go. This is so dumb. Dude.

What? No, this is interesting. This is in the mind
of the singer. Alright, yeah.

You know how long it's been since I made a song.

Well, now's the day to bring it back to life.
You talk about singing and song.
You got it yet but you say he'sgetting he's thinking about it.
Now we got him warm. Well, yougot to kind of like kind of get
no, no, you got to sing itthrough one. One time or two.
Right?

Okay. I'll be okay. I got it. So last words we
last words we can end with baby.
Just maybe we can work this out.
Oh,

that's why he is who he is.

Okay, we

can maybe just maybe we can work this out
this out.

All right. How many? That's
1-234-567-8910 1112 1314 1516.
So that's 18 words. 18 words tosay to talk about a situation
we've all been in now to add themood now Nicole has been at this
law he's she's probably the he'sprobably the this is like the

(59:04):
master class.

This is his deal.
This is the master class.

And I know he's got it. He's got he's he could
sing both this sad. Happy. Whatwould be an

interview I'd seen I'd prefer not to even be a part
of this anymore. No,

man. Your host here is crazy.

To try to have one round dance lyric off with
Nicola. No,

it's not who's better. It's not about who's
better. Dude,

this is gonna get soundbite it by 17 people.

Wow, yeah, we don't want that. All right, here
we go. Let's let's see. Let'ssee just your first off your
first off on these this word.
These words whose outcomes?
Alright, yeah, you you do it?
Yeah. What is it getting hisdrum? Yeah, I got a drill that's
Pro. See that's still in I knowto get my drum I had to go dig

(01:00:02):
in a sack probably Walmart sackthe closet. Okay, here we go.
Whenever you're ready. What areyou gonna do first sad you can
do sad or happy you just seewhat comes out. Yeah,

Nakoa HeavyRunner (01:00:14):
see what flows will flows Yeah, but the
flow goes we're gone with likeoh
baby doll crowd you win and diewe tried and tried. We are we
will be baby just maybe we canwork this baby just maybe we can

(01:00:43):
work this Oh Hey Oh,oh yeah that's just that's off
the top of the dome you knowYeah,

Shandin Pete (01:00:53):
yeah and that sounds good Man that sounds
good. That's probes now that waswhat was the mood on that one
Aaron what? What what did youhear in that?

Aaron Brien (01:01:04):
That was a beat that was that was that was
hopefulthat guy was hopeful yeah

yeah so

so that was that was a guy who's under under 30
years old

under 30 He's never bought his own SOCKS
No

yeah yeah that's that's an under 30 guy so yeah
core now has to do a jaded,jaded fellow who's been
wondering.

Well now we're gonna hear your version. No,

don't do it. I'm

not come on. Oh, wait, no, this Hamid through
once how many three ones though?
Come on.

Don't eat out the right.

You can do it.
Just do it.
No, you're

crazy. I'm not following.

You're not under 30

you do it. So

like so I feel I feel like the Yeah,
that's the sad vibe there littlebit. You know, you kind of gotta
drag to words is how I feel, yaknow?

The same? Yeah, you

gotta be like, Oh, baby. Don't want Whoa.
Crown. You know, it's kind ofgot Yeah, a little bit of a
drag. You know, it's kind of

Yeah, yeah.
Usually on those ones to thosesad ones the leads shorter. It
seems like to me that's kind ofmy intuition. Like the lead is
sort of short. I don't know.

Maybe maybe the leads less complicated on a set.

Maybe that's what it is. Because it's slowed down.

It's down since complicated. I'm not following
code. I'm not gonna follow you.
You guys.

Come on, man. Give it a whack.

I'm a whack singer.
Now.

I wish I had some

What do you look for some rattles and to get a
rattle in there? No, I

was hoping to get some like Reaver you know ya

go get the reverb.
And then go do your best shot atthe sad at

the with the reverb cola because that's, that's
where reverb really helps outthe emotions.

We're gonna set the mood. Set the mood. While we
heard that. We heard thehopeful. Yeah. Last year

we were at around dents and billings last. I
showed up late so I get it. Iget it texts. Yeah.

You can keep doing your check. They're a cool

quote from koa as far as going to this round ends
and Billings. Yeah. Anyway, showup when I'm like late, right.
Yeah. And so this is the vet.
This is the Vet Corps like aveteran singer. So I show up
kind of being bashful by theDory. I well, I ran into him
while you were smoking,remember? And so yeah, I go out
I go up, he's like, Alright,let's go in there. You know, I'm

(01:03:55):
glad you're here. Whatever hegives me like it pumps me up. So
I got to sing one song and thenhe's like, we start humming
another tune. He's like, goahead, start it. So then I
started the next song. It's likeoh, yeah, go ahead. Start it.
Like nine songs in trashed andthen around dance is over you
know, and then I thought, yeah,I won't show up late again. That

(01:04:17):
was like, like those take atack. He was like a tactfulness
to it. I don't know if then itwas like to hear oh, yeah,
that's a good song started good.
I got we sang like 12 songs likean hour

Yeah,

I felt like a rookie again.

Yeah, getting there getting nervous. Getting a
bit nervous. Yeah, so Okay,Nicola, you got your sad? Yeah,
shall we shall we?

This will just go off top of the dome.

You know oh you don't want you don't want us to
get you in the mood like pick onyou a little bit get you a
little bit mad. No, okay. Okay,just channel the fight that you
had earlier.

Yeah

it's already there buddy you're only one tick tock
video away from being there

from a range of emotions on an instant Okay,
here he goes straight from thedome

he's got his effect see what he's got

he's looking at studying the lyrics again.

Oh, baby to cry. You and we tried in China.
We Oh, baby.
Maybe we can work it out

seems like when they get Saturday are more
simple. Yeah. Simple. Yeah,that's it right there. I make
the straight make the streetpart. And that'll be our theme
song for the channel. Oh,

yeah. Yeah, it'll be our jingle. Man. That's cool.
If anybody could do it. I knew Iknew Nicola could do it. Well,
yeah, that's

what we're gonna have a actually, I got an A
round dance tournament. Onetime. tourney? Oh, yeah. In
Muckleshoot washed. Do youremember when they were doing
that? Yeah,

I remember. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, off, but

I got me one.
Yeah,

I'll see it.
There's a certain family. Oh, inWashington that you're not going
to be dude. You're just you'renot going to beat them dude.
Like,

I mean, on their worst day, dude.

There's no winds of change.

Change in your, in your future.

That's what I was thinking all the time. And I was
shocked. You know, son a good. Ididn't sound like Mikkola but
you know shit. Like, you know?

Yeah, those were popular for a bidding.
Tournament. Especially. I seemlike I only see them in
Washington. Yeah, but yeah.
Well, I

just I just had to mention this before I
lose it. Yeah, there was thatmiddle middlemen CD. They're
that area and we're working onthat time. And there's a song I
just remember the lead. When itgoes away.
We Oh.
I was a middleman. I just cameto my head. So I was a good
time.

That song that is it was kind of inspired by
Bronson. Bronson McDonald. Yeah.
And I it's actually one of thefew tunes that I've actually
sang, like, outside of like,where like, people are like,
Hey, let's sing that tune in. Wekind of Bronson named it beef
stew blues. That still blues.

(01:08:22):
Because we helped a family. Wehelped a family move into
student housing. And then theyfed us they fed us beef stew.
And while we were walking home,I made that

song. Oh, yeah. It's a good song when we,
you know, I mean, I don't knowif you you would mind. I mean, I
don't. I know. We're in our ownplaces and stuff. But I'd like
to do a version of that rule.
Yeah. Do you know what just tokind of, kind of, like you said
kind of, you know, keep in someof those classics. You know,
alive. You know what I mean?
That was a good song.

That was during the big recovery days to so I listen
to it now. It's like, it's itdoesn't drop. The song doesn't
drop in. Big River Cree was comethey kept songs like they hang
you know. Yeah. And I think I'mkind of thinking like that song
had some of that what jumps alittle bit but it stays pretty.
You don't you don't start at rowHi, you

know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's

been a long time.

So yeah.

Long time. Way, way. Way, way, way.
Way. Hey, we

see, we got him warmed up now. Now he's ready.
Let's hear it man.

No, that's, that was fun to sing, actually.
Because, yeah, it was the firstsong while Bronston was making
songs like crazy back then. And,and even John John John Stefon
was making a bunch of rounddance students then because he
was determined to win that U DUBmin handrim contests. He never
even entered it. Like Bronsonwas instantaneous, you know, he

(01:10:09):
can make a song and then JohnJohn song composing styles like
legendary brand, right? Likeit's structurally perfect, like
the way John makes tunes. Soit's like you have to demands
respect. Like, I know what I'msaying. Like, yeah. So like,

you have to learn.
You can't just, you can't justfollow it and say in it, you can
predict what it's going to do.
Yeah, you got learned

a song and then you respect the tune, you know what
I mean? So, so, and at the time,they were both living with me,
we all lived in a one bedroomapartment. We called the bullpen
and never really, I was never asong making kind of guy. But

(01:10:59):
when I did make a tune. And whenJohn would say, Oh, that's a
good song, then. That was it.
Right? Yeah. So what made thetune I got back I showed it to
John and he was like, Damn,that's a good song, man. He's
like, I'd sing it and I waslike, why made it? I made it. It
don't. Yeah, it don't matterwhat happens. Yeah. For every

(01:11:20):
every song approved by arespected singer. Dude that buys
you 10 Trash songs, man. Yeah.

You can make an album. Yeah. That one song.

I think we did record that song. At your house.

Yeah, I still have all those tracks. Well, we

recorded it originally. Nikolas house.

Oh, really? Oh, okay.
Okay.

We were I don't know, man. We just when
I look back at it. I would liketo if I could ever if for some
reason that recording magicallyshowed up. I would like it just
for the simple fact that there'sthere's two people on the
recording that are no longerwith us, you know? Yeah. But we
didn't show up. Dude. That's Imean, to me, like when I think

(01:12:16):
about it was like we didn't showup. We fucked around too. Oh,
sorry. We, while we were messingaround too much singing. Like we
were saying we sang for like sixhours the day before? Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And so like, when wewere recording, it was like, we

(01:12:38):
sounded good. But it was not. Itwas not what start the recording
started. Because you I think yousaw us at a handrim contest.

or something.
Yeah,

someone was like, Hey, you guys should record or
something. And I was like,alright, yeah, whatever, you
know. And, but yeah, I alwaysthought like, but we didn't know
the game. We were young and wewere just like, we were just
singing all the time. Like youweren't gonna stop us. You know?
Like, even if Cole wanted torecord us we're like, No, we're

(01:13:09):
gonna sing the whole way upthere. And yeah, it was Yeah.
But in a weird, weird way, therecording not coming out didn't
really bother me that much.
Because it was like theexperience was fun, man. Like it
was a Rocky Boy. We recordedthat Thursday night. I think. I
can't remember it was likeeither after Rocky Boy or before

(01:13:33):
it said the same weekend doingsomething that I didn't realize
how hard it was to record rounddance songs in the summer Why is
this so hard? During the summer,it's just not the same vibe. I
was like, Oh, it was cool. Ohman, we had Tony and Jude fate

(01:13:54):
or Jude Phelan recorded with us.
Of course acorn and Bronson andyeah, the late Jeremy Eastman
and and then you and beefyjumped in on like the last two
tracks, I think.

Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.

So Nicola, you got some you got your gut. Your
newest, your newest album out?
is out now. Yeah. Yeah,

well, actually is what it is, is we're
just releasing singles. So we'renot done yet. We're gonna we're
just trying something new. Yeah.
We're lists. We don't reallyunderstand. You know, I'm still
learning the market. You know,especially with within this
whole new era with tick tock andall these different social

(01:14:43):
media. Yeah, thing. So it's,we're just trying to get that
all figured out. Like how doesthat work? So we just said, you
know, what we can, you know,we'll just we'll just release a
single every, you know, maybe amonth or twice a month or
something like that. We'll seehow it goes. Yeah, so And plus
we thought, you know, we thiskind of thinking maybe it would
entice people where they didn'thave to spend, you know, 20

(01:15:06):
bucks or whatever it is. Yeah.
You know, was will will sell thesong at like, $1.88 or something
like that. Yeah. So, you know,some of them are dollar 70. You
know, we were just, we're justtrying on now I'm seeing that,
you know, maybe someone's be alittle more apt to go well, you
know, hey, it's only $1.88 Man,let me let me get this song.

(01:15:26):
Yeah. And you know what I mean,the way I see it, it's, uh, you
know, I, I just, you know, it'sless than a cup of coffee. It's
something that you will alwaysget to have, you know, it's it's
all digital. So what's the mp3?
So it's, it's, uh, you know, Imean, to me, it's a good it's a
good trade. Right? Right, right.
Yeah. Have

these have these reserves, man, they don't have
bank accounts.
They'll be like putting yourdebit card info, and they're
gonna ask the grandma and Yeah.
They'll just put their phone upagainst somebody. Yeah. You

(01:16:08):
know, it's funny, you know, it'sfunny. I've seen a handful of
round dances now with Nicole.
It's funny, because I noticedsomething with you, man. You
never really seem eager to singyour own tunes, man.

Oh, yeah.
Yeah, you know, it's, it's coolthat she will bring that up like
this. And is that really kind ofcame from, you know, when I
would round dance like a lot inCanada when we were staying up
there. And it was tough when,you know, it was like, it's
like, following, you know, like,you're, you know, maybe you get
the sticks, and you're thefifth, sixth, seventh, eighth

(01:16:43):
guy out, or whatever. And, youknow, these guys are singing a
lot of common songs. So they'reall rockin, they all know them.
And then you come out, and I'vedone it, where I just bring my
own set. It's like, like, I gotfour songs. In, I'm gonna sing
just my own songs. But, youknow, you got five guys that
know it, maybe if you're lucky,you know, and it makes it so

(01:17:05):
tough. And it's just almostlike, you know, following that
really loud sound whereeverybody's singing. And then he
got five guys, and it's justalmost kind of, you know, it
kind of kills the vibe a littlebit, you know, of the so ever,
ever, you know, I've tried thata couple of times. And I didn't
like how it felt I didn't likewhat it really does. So I just

(01:17:27):
kind of, you know, I like tothink what everybody knows, it's
just, it's just easier. Sothat's kind of where that comes
from, you know, is, yeah, youknow, we were there. There was
times when we would show up. ButI mean, but if I had, you know,
I mean, because we used tosometimes we would travel in a
pack of five of us, sometimessix of us to around us, then

(01:17:48):
then, you know, if you got 545Good guys that I mean, five good
singers that know your songsout, will will pull them out,
you know, definitely. But it'sjust, uh, you know, what's one
of the things with roundaboutsis becoming a really become
individualized, it's not so mucha group setting anymore. And so
just, you know, you kind of it'skind of, you know, you show up

(01:18:10):
and if you get the sticks, youknow, you share some music, but,
and I mean, that makes it tough.
You know, that's a hard thing,Air and Air, like what you
brought up because, especiallywhen you travel a long ways, and
you go somewhere and you're yourguest and they maybe they honor
your knee, you go out, you getthe sticks, and you know, people
maybe want to hear that, right.
And

yeah, I'd like to talk that's why they invited
you. And

it makes it tough, because it's

so low and it

singers, singers are impatient, too. Yeah, like
you could go over to and you caneven pick Okay, here's the
easiest song I've made. And it'slike they're just kind of like,
complacent to what you're doing.
And then yeah, then you bust outa LEED for an old used up tune
and they're like, Yeah, tocigarettes like,

yeah, yeah.
Yeah, everybody everybody wantsto sing at about, you know, 80
to 90%. That's kind of where itfeels good. You know? Yeah. If
you don't know it, you canprobably give it you know,
20 15% right. Don't feel thesame. I can relate to what
you're saying. You know, yeah,here's the only one who's just
blasting and you ain't got nopick up. It doesn't matter how

(01:19:27):
good you're singing how good thesong is.

Yes, yes.

It feels like work.

Yes. Yeah, it

are singing with flat drums. That's hard. It's
hard, dude. It's it seems likeit kills your boys. I don't
know. Is there somethingpsychological there?

Maybe.

Maybe we meeting you this summer? Cool. We sing
out wall runs above steel. Yeah,I remember that. That. Drums
went flat man. Yeah, it justseemed like done. At
least for me, it was hard to getgood not seeing it was hard

(01:20:08):
to get some bounce in your job,man.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Helps.
Kind of helps. I think it helpsthat vibration and stuff helps
carry it, you know, kind ofgives us it has that bounce. And
we

can all be Shawn Dean Pete. Yeah.

Don't get sing on anything. Give me a
chair. Give him a chair. Yeah.

He's probably saying he's saying on hood, see
single chairs, chairs pose. He'sprobably saying Oh, yeah.

I made a hand drum out of packing tape and a bucket
one time not on a good dosounded really good. Yeah, it's
really good. That kind of pingto it being the well being and
yeah.

You know, you know, it's funny as our listeners, our
listeners, I think largelyacademic I'd like to think but
they have no clue core. How goodof a singer shadiness.

Yeah. I think I think Sean Dean's one of the
like, I mean, you know, he'skind of, I don't know, he's done
a good job of like, kind ofplaying it low. You know, like
he did. I don't know how, and Idon't like flies under the
radar. But he's one of the mostunderrated singers like, like, I

(01:21:25):
was like, I used to wish hewould try voice. He would come
help us out. And it's like, whenhe come and sat down. It's like,
we went to this. You know, what,the next level that you're
trying to hit? It's like, thereit is. There it is. This is our
dude. It was it was Tony. Yeah,it's

like, yeah, he's got commitment issues, I think.

Yeah, yeah.
You gotta help us out. What?

Do the what? I've said it the same drum with
Johnston farm Michael from boysand Shawn Dean P and God damn.
Yeah. Legendre.

Yeah, know, the love of singing really drives
kind of how you how you decideto, to approach it, you know,
and I always wished, you know, Ialways wish that I could travel
and sing around. But it wasn't abig enough wish for it to
happen. Right. Like, I had theseother things that that pulled me
like bigger wishes. So I triedto maintain Well, you know, I

(01:22:30):
use I use singing as as sort ofa vehicle to achieve these other
things. And I want I want mylife and yeah, so like, like,
this past weekend. I said, Man,I need to sing in you anything.
That's anything. So I went alittle local power and just
blasted you know? Yeah. Get thatfeeling again. You

mean you baptize BC?

I don't know about that. But you know, you have a
priority, you know, on where youwhere you set your your skills,
no matter what they are, youknow, whether you're a singer or
you're, you know, you're awriter, it doesn't matter what
you what you do, and you choosehow to use that, depending on
how you want to spread that outin certain areas. So yeah, I
always had that desire, though,but it's just never I just

(01:23:16):
always had too many kids to, youknow, travel around. And so I
thought, well, there's otherthings that, that I need to do
with that. And so teaching thatto them, passing it on to them.
Maybe they'll go do that. Butyeah, yeah, man. Well,

if you're like me, I became very picky about who I
wanted to sit at a drum with forhours a day. Like, I was just
gonna jump on a cruise like,man, do I even like, did he? I
gotta sit here and visit withthese guys, you know? I mean, so
it's like, it's pretty tough. Soit got to the point where I,

(01:23:51):
there was other factors andsinging and traveling that I
didn't like. Yeah, yeah. And ifI, so I became pretty picky
about who I was singing with.
And it really just came down tolike, I liked local powers and
our singing with dry lake orsomething. Or, like, yeah,
because I knew I'd those guysare my friends. So I knew we
could hold a conversationoutside of singing, because I've

(01:24:12):
said drums all weekend andpeople all they want to know is
where are you going nextweekend? I say so and so I had
this power. Do you know, andit's like, that's cool. But I
mean, I like other stuff, too.
Men.

Kind of shallow.
Well, like

we were saying I was at Rocky Mountain College,
Paul a couple of weeks ago. AndCole comes up to me at the drum.
We started visiting. We talkedabout singing, but you could
tell the way we were talkingabout singing was probably not
normal to other singers. Yeah,at least that's how I felt.

(01:24:52):
That's how I felt. I mean, givendeep. So when Walt was there,
former guest of the show, heturned around, we started
visiting It became like thisweird wish it was a podcast,
really, but it was. And I waslike, if I could get that
experience all the time atdrums, then then I probably
would say more. But really, as avehicle like you like you

(01:25:16):
learned a lot from it. Iappreciate every bit of it, and
I enjoy it. But yeah,

I'm curious Nicola, Tell us. Tell us about
sort of the, your words ofwisdom you would give to these
up and coming singers or theseyounger singers who are deep in
it, you know, sort of some, somethings that you would you would
you would impart upon those thatthis younger generation from,

(01:25:44):
from your experience? What, whatare some things you would say?
Well,

one of the things is definitely Gardevoir
you got to keep it coming fromthe heart. You know what I mean?
It's, it's that I think that'sthe thing that that will drive
it. Because when, when it whenwe lose that kind of, like, lose
that connection, or we couldsay, when it comes more out of

(01:26:10):
from just the ego. And I'm gonnaleave and I'm not even saying
that's a bad thing. I'm justsaying when it when it comes
from that. It's a it's adifferent feeling that that
we're, we're, we're we'reputting out, right, yeah. And
so, you know, my encouragementis that music music to me. Now,
this is just my perspective, Iinsane, I'm right, or anything,

(01:26:31):
I'm just saying, This is howI've come to believe it and view
it is that music is a, it's ait's a way to speak like, with
this universe without, you know,even just a tune can do it, you
don't need words you don't need.
And it's really a vibration. Andthat coming from the heart is
like, the way I see it is it'sit's so much more powerful, it

(01:26:53):
goes so much further, and in theeffects of that lifting people
up is really powerful, right? Imean, I've felt that from other
people's music that have liftedme out of like, even tough
times, you know, really, reallytough times and, and I've heard

(01:27:14):
someone else's music and it doessomething you feel it,
especially one day, in printeddat from from the heart, like
when they were singing recordingdon't matter. But if they were
in now hard space, in band, andyou feel it, it's healing, music
can heal, it can lift you up, itcan do a lot of things. And what
I think the most powerful aspectto that is one that comes from

(01:27:38):
the heart, it's in prints it tome in printed into the music.
And so that's just one thing Ireally like would encourage, you
know, fingers that are that areyounger singers or you know,
that are open company is reallytrying to remember that, that
what it's, you know, to me,that's what music is about is,
you know, sharing that it's foreverybody. Yeah, it's, it's not

(01:28:02):
just ours. It's it's somethingit's a way that you, you, you
help other people too, I guessso. So I've had people over the
years and you know, I don't saythis to brag or anything, but
you know, just messages, justprivate, private messages where
people have reached out and saidthings like, like that, like,
hey, you know, like, I lost arelative or some in your music.

(01:28:23):
You know, it did something. So,so I can relate to that, because
I've felt that from otherpeople's music as well. So I'm
like, Man, that's good. Youknow, thank you. I thank you for
sharing that with me or lettingme know that, you know, and
yeah, because I totally, Itotally relate, man. But yeah,
just just keeping that, that,you know, heartspace going and

(01:28:45):
now. I don't know, maybe it'sjust because, you know, maybe
we've been around it longenough. But now it comes from a
place like when I sing I go andI do it because I want to. Yeah,
you know, you know, in the end,there was a time you know, I'll
be honest, like, you know, Hey,man, we all grew up on a
reservation, we know what it'slike being poor, right? Yeah.

(01:29:06):
And so there's a time when like,you were just counting on this
card or this Yeah, I got mouthsto feed and ever Yes, it's like,
dude, man, like and, and that's,you know, what, really,
sometimes you get lost in thatbecause it becomes almost like
work like this is this is thisis all I got right now. Yeah.
And so now you know, it's it'snice to be able to come and go

(01:29:30):
to a powwow or or round dance orwhatever and truly come with
that just that intention. Peoplefrom joy, you know, like I'm
here because I want to be andI'm here just to enjoy myself
and to share that with others.
It's really it's, it does itcomes from a different place,

(01:29:51):
man.

That's good. Now, one last one, or the question to
what what what advice would yougive to older people up aren't
singing in that kind of sameregard you're feeling about the
older folks?

I think this is just what I've seen in it.
And, and I get it, like I said,it's not a it's not a put down
or are Yeah, or anything, butone of the things that I've
found with with the owner is,and I think it's an all of us,
but we don't like change, youknow, we just don't like the
change. And, but I think theadvice would be to accept it,

(01:30:29):
you know, and flow with it.
Like, you know, that old saying,What you resist persists. You
know, it's almost like because,you know, what, there's probably
aspects of it, you know, both ofyou guys have have seen that you
don't like, right, there's, youknow, what used to be like this
and it ain't even close to thatlooks like something different
now. But that that's, that's,that's, that's life is, is it

(01:30:52):
evolves and changes. You know,it's one of those four falls
under one of the four spirituallaws is that one of the things
that is constant in thisuniverse is change. It's going
to change. Right? And yeah, sothat, that would be my thing is
just, you know, you got to justroll with it. Yeah.

I can relate to that, man. Yeah, both both of
those statements are pretty spoton. Yeah. That's cool, man. That
is awesome. Aaron,

you got you got anything. No, man. That was
good. That's exactly what we'relooking for. Yeah, I mean, I
don't know what your what wassaid it, man. Said it. Go.
That's sort of what doubtdownload is music. Oh,

yeah, sure, man. For sure. Check it out. So
so I didn't I didn't let a lotof people know this. But over
the last three years, I think itwas we pulled I pulled a lot of
my music off of these majorplatforms. It really all that
stuff. So we just I built my ownwebsite and that's where I
that's where we put our music.
So it's just Nicole heavierunderdog comp.

Nicola Henry.
Right.

We'll put it we'll put it in the show notes.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
I didn't know that. Okay, so theonly place to get exclusive. Not
the bootleg. Yeah, the bootlegnot phone to phone recordings.

I live in the bootleg where I live in the
bootleg.

Part of the boot.
So Nicola heavy runner.com.

Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. runner.com.

We should record a track with just us three some
time. Yeah. Let's get to all theleads. Yeah.

Nicola takes all the leads. We it'll be a lead.

Hey, we should do it with every singer. That was a
guest on our show. We'll havewe'll record a track. Okay.
Mike. John, Jason. Walt. Yeah.
Oh, the air introduces

air to snare and toussis Jason Jason heavy
runner.

Oh, Jason every runner corndog

corner daughter corndog. Bandit, Jason. Yeah.
Yeah,

we should do it.
It'd be fun. Yeah, I'm justtrying to get on Nikolas. Shit,
man.

Get on one of his albums. Well, he's gonna he
wants to be do one year son andthat man. That'd be cool to hear
that. Because that is a goodreason that

Oh, yeah.

Have at it, man, dude.

Yeah, yeah.
Why? Actually, we got to bringyou up and then we'll do we'll
you know, we'll just do it here.
Yeah. Yeah, I would. I would saywe could do it down there. But I
think we'd get better quality inthe studio here. Yeah. So yeah,
I would say come up here. Yeah,just do it. Just take a day off
and just come up. Yeah.

Do it, man. Yeah.
Do that.

Do it, Aaron. Just do me. Practice. It's

a mobile hit some local powers and tell ya

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#49 - Nakoa HeavyRunner Unplugged: The Life and Times of a Round Dance Alchemist

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#49 - Nakoa HeavyRunner Unplugged: The Life and Times of a Round Dance Alchemist