#53 - A Smudge Too Far: Perils of Pretendigenous Smudging - Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Aaron Brien (00:00):
Do you live alone?

Shandin Pete (00:02):
Yeah,

it's like sometimes you just kind of forget Yeah,

you got it eat out of convenience

Salisha Old Bull (00:11):
this fear me

yeah

I'm gonna get shouting

throw up a West Side what's the gang what's the
gang sign in? Harden

you're lying you're lying liar

i haven't I don't think that's like a it doesn't
seem to be that's more like meinsane vicious time

yeah the game sign yeah it is yeah it's

not a gang sign but losers yeah I don't
know what makes oh yeah bloodremember it makes blood yeah you
know it wrote

part Copart Copart I can't remember how to do it
crow part crow Park Oh parkit's like it's like part of us
it's

good we know nothing

we don't know jump people in we don't like part of

all we know how to do is run from dogs okay
and cops oh yeah

I don't

know I wasn't a cop

okay let's go was never yeah never

have to the cops didn't even care what you're
doing but

your kids see them kids clothes are all dirty
okay

you take off from the cop that's not chasing you
like I look back on it now andI'm like I don't know if there
actually takes

yeah I don't think we're chasing until they
saw you running

hey listen to the song. You ready? I said Are you
Ready? Ready? Better verbal yeshere go

(03:59):
yeah you know what you know whatera that is? Because you can see
it on the screen right? That hasthe familiar sound familiar
sound of the 70s 1976 To beprecise, a wartime song that was
yeah, that was probably the endof when it was called the war

(04:22):
dead song. I think some peopletried to revive it, you know, on
their subject.

Yeah, retro. Retro to call it that. Yeah, yeah,
single word dance.

We just want to start saying that we shouldn't
Yeah, because when a single worddance.

Wait, how do you say it? How do you say that
in your language?

You land? Oh no.

I say it.

Well, we say hot dense by the way the hot. The
hot. Hot then some Yeah.

Are you telling me your language is
English

bodily

decolonize

you did it. He's let him let him choose it out.

How long did we make it into the recording
before? The call it art?

Today is all you could say all day.

I know Yeah, I was really I was feeling colonial
flow. I was doing it as a jokethough, and she's getting mad
saying that well, I'm justjoking. But decolonization is
not a joke

No, no, no, no, no. Let's start it off with
the land acknowledgement.

Well, yeah, I'd like to start with the land
acknowledgement. I would like toacknowledge the lands of the
Bigfoot. The Yeti, oftenreferred to as

Sasquatch,

whose lands we live in play and unlearn. Today
Furthermore, I would like toposition myself among the people
of the mythical beasts of NativeAmerican lore and acknowledge my

(06:37):
position of authority over overtheir domain and how I make them
perceive the perceived in mywork. The position of authority
I hold over the domain of themythical creatures of the forest

(07:03):
I now that these these beastsnever get acknowledged, you
know,

they never name not the snake, not the
spider and

we can climb up the animal kingdom and name the
turtle.

Oh, arch down. It's not a hierarchy.

Oh, that's my You

darn it.

Raven, you're right. Not the salmon.

I need to acknowledge my position of
authority among the animalkingdom. The kingdom let me let
me try it again. I can get thisI can get this. I would like to
acknowledge

Don't forget about headmaster,

my, my mice. scaly who I like to acknowledge my
position among the creatures ofthis earth as my relatives, my
kin. In fact, one of them couldbe a brother and sister. So that

(08:23):
puts me in no position either.
See, I'm humanizing it. I don'tsee no way out of this.

What is it?

I've worked myself into a colonial trap

of colonial conundrum.

conundrum. See, now I started off by using the
colonizers language, whichprobably is what walked me into
this colonial trap, if you will.
I don't

know the verbiage appeared at 1000 times.

I've heard it for seven generations.

And in every direction, and

in all the directions.

times two, which equals 14. Yeah, that's
one of the seven. He's got to goaround twice. Okay, four times.

Seven. All right.
I got something to talk about.

Before before you start I want people to get a
sense. Okay. US us today. Weentered into a group chat. You

get thirsty.

But you

said say let's just start this conversation out with

Well, yeah.

Can you put smudge?
Oh, yeah. And send it would itstill work? I say Think so? No,
no, don't don't interrupt me. Isaid I think so. Wait, like in
the mail like mail and sayAlicia says, Yeah. Would you
smudge it? Would you smudge ifyou were in the middle of a gang

(10:16):
fight? I said in reference tothe first question, or like a
legal jar, and then Shawn Deansays, Does your smudge get more
powerful if you smudge thesmudge? In which I said, I
smudge all my smudges with foursmudges four times. And then

(10:38):
Shawn Dean replies jointappointed routes, reference to
the jar comment, and then sayLeisha says we later what's up?
What? What's legal about thejar? And then Shawn Dean says
triplicate smudge. And I said ajoint action resolution. And

(11:01):
then say Leisha enters in with avery profound question. So we
should smudge when passing alaw. That's a great question as
amongst all the clutter, thensays smudge bits of jar. That's
a good thought.

I'd say like, rip up and rip it up in little
pieces and throw it in. Yeah.
And then

St. Lucia says something a bit vague. I would
say somewhat controversial.
Smudge, well flagging.

Like, like on a road side of the road. And

then I come back with a very clever, much action
resolution. But I spelt it oureasy.

I didn't catch that.

That's a good one.
Then then then then in referenceto your flagging. I said before
and after, I think as aprecaution right.

To be safe.

And then Shawn Dean says, which we all know smudge
before free throws. That's agiven. Say Leisha then says
should you smudge while bringingthe ball down the court? Great
question. Great thought we hearyou. John Dean then says much
the referees jerseys, which Ithought we were already doing.

(12:29):
And then Alicia comes back witha should we replace the gravel
with smudge, which we weren'teven going there?

You're laying down some gravel for a nice

gravel. You said Yeah, boy. And I said decolonize
decolonization is the key to presmudge rituals, which at which
time I say Leisha through aloop. She said, Wait, and I
could hear it. Wait. There's apriest much thought where she?

(13:09):
And then and then should we takehats off to smudge? Which I
thought well, yeah, so yeah,that's it stand up and offered
smudge, which is a 14directions. It's in the manual.
And I'm like, are we notconsulting the manual? Daily
should have figured it outbecause her foundation is

(13:30):
strong. Seven times two equals14. She got it. And she then
asked because she's full ofquestions today. She said would
you smudge during a jobinterview? actually get smudged
if someone smudges the Zoomscreen? Great. I mean, that's a
great question. And then I saidI would have hot coals burning

(13:52):
and content and constant smudge.
And you said like always sayleast carry a little pen of
coals as always, as is our wayand then you said I think that's
that answers all my questions.
Do you ever look away for thesmudge? Oh, look away from the

(14:15):
smudge when you're smudging. But

yeah, that's

how profound that thought Yeah. This in depth.
Indigenous conversation nowwe're having indigenous group
text message. Say Leisha hits uswith the you guys did it. You
answered my questions. Good, butI'm gonna leave you with this.
It's like It's like Jesusleaving surely I'll come

(14:43):
quickly. He says leave. What wasthat mean? That come back. Come
back. Come back. Alicia hits uswith the Do you ever when you're
switching that's heavy. Irespect that. That

was Sunday.
You said it would seem dangerous

Well, no. This is the this was the thought this
was a thought. Now let me let mejust jump in here real quick
because, you know, you see sawyou so you're watching the
person, like going in for a goodsmudge, you know, like he's
gonna smudge something down, youknow, you know, you've seen the
person we've seen it many times.
And they get these strange, thestrange eyes, you know, they're
the kind of big and they'relooking at everything. They're

(15:31):
smudging, you know? They'relooking at it. You seen it read?
Like, you have to look at itwhen you smudge it. Because I
guess you might miss or maybeyou're looking for something
like, like a sign maybe. But Ithought well, what if like the
real cool guy. The real coolguy. Like the pro smudger, he
can do the no look smudge. Youknow, he just couldn't look at

(15:54):
it. He just knows. He knows.

Or she without burning anybody? Well, of
course,

they just they know they just

wave it over there.
Just with or without a fan. Oh,without.

Okay with the fan that just washed it. Yeah, like
bro. You're so probably youdon't need the extra tool to get
it to where it needs to go. Youjust you got this like the
little wrist. You can whip it upinto like a little ice cream.
thing and just kind of projectnames.

I won't say any names. But the 100 years ago,
during one of those SalishKootenai College social nights.
They asked the individual topray for the food which was you
know, pizza. And he's like,Wait, so he runs outside comes
back in with sage. In it coachwith a fan. Just ribbon. There's

(16:58):
paths going everywhere.
All over the food. Oh, no.
It was bad.

Something SpongeBob would do really have a
conscience.

Remember, he's got really bad breath and he's like,
we stink. We stink and then thatlittle stink air is coming out
and it forms and then thislittle circle. Like it keeps
growing in this room. We stink.
We stink like this big ball ofstink air. The Remnant. Yeah, I
guess not.

Okay, you're from a different era.

Okay, all right, right, right. Okay. This is the
deal, though. I got curiousabout this word, right, smudge.
And I thought what, uh, thissounds strange. And it always
sounded strange to me. Evengrowing up. So you know, the
first thing I do is I isolettes.
Well, what what did the Englishpeople think of the word smudge?

(18:00):
So you consult the dictionary.
And in the dictionary, itdescribes smudge as smearing
something. Or when somethingbecomes rubbed in that smears
you know, or you make it blurry.
You know, like, you can smudgeinky can smudge a painting. You
can smudge your makeup. Oh,mascara, or smudge your mascara.

(18:26):
Yeah, you know what that or inAmerican a newer American
definition of smudges is a smokyoutdoor fire that's lit to keep
insects off of plants and orprotect them against frost. So
after all right, right, right,right. But let's let's

(18:49):
interrogate this word, and see,let's see where it starts to
come into play among NativeAmerican literature, because,
you know, that's how it getsspread. 1976 19 Well, almost,
almost. Well, tell me what'sthis 1976 reference, you know,
you already know. Or do you justthrow out a route? Here?

1976

I asked my mom.
Yeah, I said When did you starthearing people say smudge
because before they would justsay like, cedar yourself off or
you know, use some of that orwhatever they point at you guys
use some of this. You know,yeah, yeah. Cedar yourself off.
Smoke yourself off. Yeah. Sowhen did you start hearing

(19:41):
smudge? And she said it wasright around the time I was Reno
district Princess, which was1976

That's pretty close. You know? That's pretty
close to what I found. Isn't

that weird?
Isn't it weird how that's thesame is the song that you just
Laid. I know what the heck arein some way. See,

that's what I thought he was gone for. He's
like, Oh, she will do somemysticism into this. That was
Pio 1976. That song was fromanyway, it

was she was centered lodge district Princess
because the reservation has sixdistricts. Okay? She was
centralized district princess in1976. Okay, I might be wrong.
But

well, let me let me. Let me walk you through what
I'm what I found in a quicklittle jaunt of the internet,
primarily Google Scholar. So in1938 the word smudge was
referenced but not not in anysort of way to Native Americans.

(20:48):
It was it was referenced in inin terms of the settlers
colonists in Kansas. They'retrying to drive away
grasshoppers from their crop. Sothey set it says efforts to
drive them away then being thehorde of grasshoppers, efforts

(21:11):
to drive them away. By means ofsmoke smudges proved of no
avail. And the crops wereruined. Fast forward to 1941.
Now this is where smudge comesin into some Native American
text. And you can probably guess1941 were what kind of text it

(21:33):
was. Take a guess. 1941 Yeah, Iguess.

Farmers Farmers Almanac No.

What did you say, Aaron? You got? I didn't hear
propaganda. No, this is ananthropological text, which

would say the whole question over again. Then.

I said in night, it shows up again in the
literature in 1941. And I saidguess and guess what kind of
text it shows up in propaganda,Farmers Almanac listening, what

grasshopper is all about us.

Okay, anyway, it comes up in this anthropological
text where this, whoever thatapologist is he's talking about
this funerary practice. And hesays an alternative set of
funerals. I know it is. Yeah,they're, they're fixated on our,
on our on the dead. Anyway, analtar is set up in a room and
the priest prepares a smudgewith some of the hair cut from

(22:39):
the corpse. Okay, fast forwardagain. It doesn't really show up
again until 1960. Where again,same kind of text and
topological text. A guy'stalking about the it is it? Is
it thought the Klingons How doyou say that PLI and clink clink

(23:01):
clink? It's saying

you know that thing you guys do?

Get thinking?
Yeah. Okay. Got it. Okay,

sorry. That's a sense.

Okay, sorry.
Anyway, he's described how theyset up a smudge fire to keep
flies off their, theirstrawberries are something
that's okay. No, that's thatsounds that's in alignment with
the definition. And then this isthis is strange. Well, that's
not strange comes up in again.
1964. Again, a guy is talkingabout the Greeks this time, not

(23:33):
even about Native Americans. Hesays, it's believed that if a
smudge from the flame is plantedover the threshold, the home
will be blessed with good luckfor the year. So that means, you
know, when you when you put fireonto something that makes like a
little black spot, you know,that's what I'm talking about,
like smudging something with thewith a flame. And then finally,

(23:56):
in 1975, pretty close to whatyour your, your mother had said.
Now it starts to show up inNative American literature and
Noah and the manner in which weknow it today in a text. Let's
see what's it called? Being anelastic in a text called the

(24:22):
vertical last God dang it in thetext by a individual again, I
think it was a linguist maybe inthis in this in this instance.
And it's a text about theDakotas and it's talking about

(24:43):
their some of their rites andrituals, I guess, in a certain
way, and then he uses the wordsmudging in a manner in which
it's used today, you know, whereyou're smoking stuff off those
kinds of things. So I thought Iwas pretty curious. And I'm I

(25:04):
was I'm wondering, this is sothis is my next thought. Because
you know how prolific it istoday. I mean, your story is
kind of illustrative of that.
Like we're sort of obsessed withsmudging we have this obsession
with smudging, right? I

seen sage. It said smudge kit. It was being sold in
Walmart. In Walmart, man. Theyknow were

there. They know that. What was in it? Yeah,

it was like those bundled ups. Sages. You know
that sage one? Yeah, Sage one,which is, anyway. Yeah. It was
like three of those. Now

everybody wants to be us.

Well, I think it's become so popular. They don't
even know it's us.

Yeah, yeah. It's just

part of it's just part of it's a thing now. Yeah,
what do they call it? People sayoh, we're gonna cleanse this
room. Yeah.

You've had an event he said I'm gonna cleanse
my room. Yeah, yeah.

Fung Shui. It's almost like a fish waving like
Yeah, I think it's kind of seenme like Eastern

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

You know I mean, I think people kind of do it that
way you know? Yeah, like

this exotic across the ocean kind of thing. Well,
this is what I was wondering.
This is what I was wondering.
I'm wondering if when when isreally not a good time to
smudge? When is it and like justnot a great time? Like if you
see the person decent highthat's not a great time. You

(26:55):
shouldn't be smudging then wellthis is well this is what I
thought

well when when there was no needs much there
was no need to smudge the foodoff

because you get ashes all over it right? Yeah.

Who smudges food?

Just pick a different smudge. Or

maybe just just pray just pray over it. Yeah,
there's a tree yeah, there's anarray just pray over it. Well,

here's a run to the car and grab the tool bag.

This is what I was curious about this because I
thought of one I thought wellyou know, probably a good time
not to smudge is when somebodyelse is smudging right you don't
want to you don't want to smudgeblock somebody

Oh is it time to smoke

no there's no smoke block that's not a great
time

normally I'm pretty cool about this stuff you should
that got me so much

your time bro it's nice going to bathroom and

I already started already started

you have to wait her turn you have to wait
to turn

down dude I'm going already sharing I don't know who
taught you I learned from mygrandpa that's it my authorities
more than

you got your switch get at Walmart no I
didn't

okay

so that was my example is not a great time to
smudge. So I'm wondering fromthe two of you what's your when
is when is a good time not tosmudge

that's funny man I know that messes me up um,

that's I mean it might be tough to top that one

I don't know I think it's more about what what
you're using. So like purposeand intent have a lot to do

good to go again.
So he's gonna go academic

top five places not to smudge pot. Yeah.

Hey, let me let me tell you softball here. So it's
probably not a great time tosmudge when you're refilling the
propane tank.
Probably should just Well, yeah.

Are we gonna do is

it's not a great time. I mean, maybe feeling
like, you know, I want to justcleanse this propane tank and
the truck that is delivereddelivering it. No, don't do it.
It's dangerous. It's dangerous.
So I want to hear. Yeah, what isnot a great time to smudge?

In the bathroom?
Yeah.

So when I thought to? It seems inappropriate,
right?

You have to smudge the bathroom. But not in
the bathroom? I

do. I do. This is what I'll say. I don't know
where it's wrong to see my job.
Would you say? I think we go toit too much, though. Yeah. Seems
like Holy Christ.

Yeah. Well, it seems it starts to feel when we
said this quite a bit beforeit's performative. You know,
that's not it's not the it's notfor the action of what it's
intended to do. It's more forsome people to see people to
see. I think

what makes it hard is there's there's still
people who are like reconnectingand yeah, it makes it like, it's
confusing, because there's sometribes that don't smudge. That's
not even a thing for them. Yeah.
Yeah, it's true, though. Andthat ends up being that's like
turning it on listen to whilethis, like Aaron said, they're

(32:00):
turning it into like, astereotypical thing. You know,

I, you know, I believe in it, I believe in the
power of those plants. And whenyou burn it, yeah. Can you use
that smoke? I think there'ssomething I don't want to say
sacred but holy, that happens.
Yeah. But that also means thatI, because I believe in it.
Like, if I go to a differenttribe, and I see what they're
doing, I like to look on or takepart because I believe in it,

(32:27):
right? Yeah. I think people whodon't fully understand the
purpose of those, the uses ofthose things are uncomfortable.
When it's outside of that littleknowledge base, they know. For
example, one time I was doingsomething on your resume, I
won't say names, but they werethey were gonna make some are

(32:49):
never gonna smudge or something.
They use. They use Juniper,right. So they used it, we used
it and I had some cedar or somebareroot nice to hear you try
this. Some on there too. And itfreaked them out.

They're like, No, no,

we

don't use that.
Does smudge blocking. Yeah,

that's it. Oh, smudge Horan.

Your tennis match block somebody? No, I get it.
No, no, no, no, no.

I was thinking like, when my mind if I had made
calls and done my thing, and hadto use this much. And then
somebody said, let me use someof your causes. Try this a bit.
Oh, should go for it, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. Because I know whatthose plans are for, you know?
Because I'm avoiding your realquestion. It's more about people

(33:50):
that claim to know, the uses ofthose smudges. I often find
don't, because their familiarityand their comfort with it isn't
there? They're like, rigid. AndI'm like, man, if you really
knew how these things are used,and what they use them for, then
you'll know like, you'll knowthe leeway within them. Yeah.

Yes. And no, it does. You know, it's like, well,
so it's the context that really,that really matters, right? So
if you if if this if you had thesame context that you're talking
about, what you put it into somesort of ceremonial process that

(34:39):
perhaps you're new to that ispretty well established. You
probably wouldn't even have donethat. You probably wouldn't say
Oh, hey. It's kinda like saying,Don't How about sing this song
next. When you don't even belongthere. It's not like something
that it's not customary to thatpractice. However, you're

(35:03):
talking about, just like thatwhat we're accustomed to seeing
today, which is just the sortof, I wouldn't I don't know, I
don't know, I hate to sayoveruse. Because, you know, we
have a belief, like you said inthose in those, those plants and
what what they bring? So italmost it's almost like, it's
almost like, like, like thethought that well, it's not

(35:26):
really wrong, but it's sort ofmisplaced. And so when you see
it sort of in that manner, inthis really loose situation, you
know, like someone starting aconference, you know, and sort
of smudging things down, youknow, there's not there's not a
whole lot of them. customarypractice, in that particular

(35:50):
situation. So you feelcomfortable saying I want maybe
throw a little bit of this onsome sort of like a sort of
misplaced? That's kind of what Ihear you say,

what we're doing in the moment, allows for that?
Yeah, yeah, we was at like, amedicine dance or something. And
they used to smudge. I wouldn'tbe like, hey, use,

I brought some

I brought my smoker bag.

Yeah. And I think that's where there's sort of
this, you get sort of a dividebetween what, well, like people
who are who who have beenaccustomed practice, long held
tradition about things wherethings are placed, things are
not placed. We sort of we don'twe want to reserve judgment.

But doing well. I

mean, like, we don't we don't go out. We don't
go out and try to correct peoplelike to say, oh, no, you can't
you you shouldn't be doing that.
Or this is the this is the way Iwould do it. That's that's when
you when you're familiar withthat context of, of your own
place, and the things that youdo and you're comfortable. Like
Aaron was saying, you have thiscomfort level with that. You
don't go out and try to mean mugpeople manhandle things, try to

(37:07):
make it be done your way.
Because you understand that thesituation in which it's being
applied, like what we see inacademics, or conferences, or
meetings, or people are, let'ssmudge the room off and get
everybody feeling in a good way.
I don't know, it's just likethat. It doesn't feel natural.
It just feels misplaced. So weknow, we don't we don't want to

(37:31):
meddle in that and in thatparticular way. But I think we
do have a sense that, and thisis probably less, I guess I have
the sense that and this feelingthat I'm being misrepresented
my, that really important thing,those really important plants.

(37:54):
It sort of feels like an abusein a way. But and then you got
to wrestle with that idea thatwell, I mean, it's, it's hard to
do it. I don't know, I thinkabout why it can't be wrong, if
they're trying to do it in aright in in a way that they're
not trying to cause harm.

But is it but is it even if they're not trying
to cause harm? And even thoughwe're not judging? Is it okay to
not say anything? Oh, I

think there's, I think there's a time you do say
something? Like, I've seen it,I've witnessed it where somebody
younger corrected this olderfella? Oh, yeah, it was involved
in a pipe. He's trying to forcethis thing. And he kept like, it
was real performative. And Iwitnessed some really cool,
they're speaking crow. But hewas telling them, like, you

(38:50):
know, basically, like, if it wasmeant to happen, then it would
happen, but it's not happening.
There's something telling you.
And it's the it's because ofwhat's going on here. You don't
need to

do it. You know, ya don't need to do it. Like
you're

you're trying to make something happen for these
people. And I liked it. It wascool. I missed it. I witnessed a
young man. Tell an older man.
Like he was in his 80s in his20s Yeah, you know, because of
the way he told him because ofhis cultural knowledge. He said
the right things,

right. Yeah, it

was just a young guy and said, It looks like
you're doing it wrong

Yeah, that would that would Yeah, that approach
is not correct.

It looks like it looks like you're doing it
wrong.

Let me run out and get my pipe in the car.

Well, that's almost like what it was turning into
you know, and Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, some Curious about that, like Felicia
was saying, like you give anexample. You know, when is it?
When, when it when does it whenit went on? Does

it not odd to be

when it not to be to be? When should it be a
person's place to intercede inwhatever manner that feels
respectful.

And I think that as a conference, you're wasting
your time.

I'd like to say, what do you do if you're
witnessing something beinginvented, right? That's their
way. That's their way. Yeah.

It seems like

no matter what you say, they're just gonna keep
making it up as they go.

Oh, yeah. It's almost like that, you know, the
lie a person tells and they haveto tell another light to make
the other life fit. And you gotto keep telling more lies to
make that fit. That's That's howthese weird traditions get
invented. It's like, speak withforked tongue. Yeah. Speak with
the work together. Yeah, thatkind of thing.

In two worlds.

Two Worlds or get you?

Yeah, to ice to get to ice.

You got to do it that see world, two World

Seven Rs.

Then you got to seminar, you got to worry about
all those things. So if I closeone I might colonial and the
other one is my indigenous?

Why don't you put indigenous second? Oh,

yeah. Good question. It's valid. It's
valid, you got to point thosethings out when it happens.

Again, there's a time and place for everything.

So let's get back to this thing. Because I think
it's important. I don't, I don'tfeel I wouldn't feel comfortable
correcting anybody, you and ifit was in a manner that was the
gentlest in the most logical,meaningful way. I wouldn't feel
comfortable doing that. I don'teven think I'd feel comfortable

(42:26):
doing that in my own hometerritory. Because people are
too sensitive. You know, there'sthis, there's this. There's this
heightened sensitivity. And Ithink it's because of, well, we
all know, because cultural lossand people don't want to feel,

(42:47):
you know, like, saying, yeah,they don't want to be seen.
Yeah, they want to be shamed.
And you don't want to discouragepeople. And you know, they're
trying and like, you kind ofgive them a pass. And you watch,
if you watch for too long, givenpeople passes, then that's when
things start becoming invented.

(43:07):
And then debate, they becomeconventions, like, the smoking
pot this, okay,

they call it I've heard people lately or not
lately, but they'll say he'sgonna have a smudging ceremony.
Yeah. Is pledging itself aceremony? I've always understood
it to be like something thataccompanies the ceremony. And

accompaniment, yeah, yeah, there's never the
totality of a process centeredon the smudging of, of anything
that I know of anyway, only thepre smudge.
The pre smudge becomes ceremonyin itself, getting prepared to

(43:53):
smudge. No, I think you'reright, though. I mean, that's.
So that's where we're at. That'swhat we're, that's what we face
is these things. So it's easy,that you know why? Because it's
easy. It's easy and accessibleto label something that you're
familiar with as a ceremony,because then it sort of gives

(44:14):
you sort of some credibility,cultural credibility to say, Oh,
I'm going to perform a smudgingceremony. When it's, it's not a
I don't think like you said, weconsidered the totality of a
ceremony, nor is it placed inthe right context of in which

(44:34):
the smudging ought to beperformance,

bulging smudging, is also done in the preparation
of something. So I know likepeople in the past somebody's
cowboys, you know, they're like,sponges, they're bits off and
stuff before something you know,like cuz they're gonna compete

(45:02):
or if they're gonna Yeah. Yeah,and get things prepped and
ready. But there might be otherthings involved in that too,
that are private, you know,like, oh, by the way, there's a
way attached to stuff horsestuff, you know, racehorses,
things like, yeah, so there'sthings attached to that. But um,

(45:24):
so maybe sometimes it's notattached to a ceremony, but it's
still attached to like, there'ssomething that it's for. So what
I noticed when people, what I'mcurious is like, at these
meetings are when they say,Well, we're gonna smudge, we're
gonna do this. And it's like,okay, so then state the reason

(45:44):
so we're smudging in preparationfor something. What is that
thing that we're doing? Yeah.
And when we say this is thereason, then it's like, well,
then it doesn't want that.
Right. If it's just a talk, orsomething, you know, I don't
think that necessarily warrantsit all the time. I guess I
don't, man, but what do I know?

Hey, hey, man. No, no, no, no. Well, what's the
classic Indian guy response? Butwhat do I know? Poor baby. Poor
baby. No, you'd have a pointthere, though, you know? Because
so what you said earlier, youknow, the power of these plants.

(46:32):
There's not just, you don't justgo collecting these things? Or
provide yourself of these thingsfor No, no good reason. You have
on a deep understanding of theirsignificance and power. And in a
way it feels like, well, ifyou're not doing if you're not

(46:54):
using that for a reason in whichit's warranted, you're sort of
playing, which is dangerous.
That's a dangerous thing. Right?
I mean, we're familiar with thatin a ceremonial way. If you're
playing deemed as dangerous.

Danger.

Yeah, that's often the thing that I think of when I
see these things like, oh, man,that I hope they're not going to
get hurt themselves in a waybecause number one, it seems,
doesn't seem that authentic in away. And number two, it's, it's
the sort of playing withsomething that, yeah, not to be
played with.

Like, it's really hard to respect it, even
if so in the instance of,they're trying to learn
something, it's hard to inspectit if they don't know what it's
for. And they're not quite sureif they should be doing it at
that time. And then it's like,well, I like in that way.

(47:54):
That's, that's what we have is ait's like we have our own
privilege. And we have aprivilege of knowing those
pieces of information. But wealso understand that the
responsibility that comes withthat, which is not supposed to
discourage them, so then you'rekind of putting yourself at risk

(48:14):
too. Because it's like you don'tknow if their intent is all if
they understand their ownintent.

Right. Yeah, yes.
That's I don't know that's thisWhat did you call it a
conundrum.

What did you call it that a colonial Oh,
Aaron

said the drum kit.
I mean, it is. It is.

I just we have to acknowledge it. Like the land.

The monsters

monsters on the land. That's why I'm wondering.
Yeah, monsters energy drink.
Monster Energy,

flathead, monster,

flooded, Monster energy drink.

Okay. All right.
That's I'm wondering, back tothe back to the question. What
was, the question was, when isit when should you not smudge?
And I gave a couple of goodexamples when somebody else's

(49:27):
smudging who the hell cares whenyou fill in a propane tank, no,
not a good idea.

Not a good idea.

Not a good idea. Not like what's in a car.
Not Hi Sam. I am not green eggsand

not in a car.

Not Uber, not Uber.

Don't smoke. Much in an Uber, some stars on your

Uber just a minute well

smudge How do you say it in your
language and Salish? How do youwork when you're doing that

that's the word

that's a great question I don't know how do you
say I don't even I don't know ifthere's an well I guess what is
what's the what would be thewhat how do you say it in CRO
and what does it mean maybethat'll help me figure out how
it might be said Bala.

kabbah Bala Bala kabhi bonnet cabeza

and what does it mean? I mean, what is the this
is the act

of using that boiler cupboards like your
boiler cupboards, like theplate, the plate actual smudge
itself. And just to do it, too,just to do it. To do it. Do it,
do

it. The word eye is it has a root word in and I'm
not. I think the root word hassomething to do with plants. The
plant has something to do withthe plant. You

say the dinosaurs and

then

acknowledge the dinosaurs.

I'm trying to talk here about we're talking about
this thing getting sick ofsaying it smudge. Tired of
saying I'm tired of saying itwell don't say

it anymore to pick

this topic. Man Is this why you called this

Hey, just calm down.

Mr. Meeting resolved

Ah, you

said it you know what? You know what I'm gonna do
I want I want the listeners ason on a challenge the listeners.
And you know what, you know whatI'll do you know what I'm gonna
do to the first listener. Thatcounts how many times we said
the word Samaj. I will send youa tribal research specialist. 16

(52:15):
ounce coffee mug? Yeah. Well, Ido too. So what I'm

poem cousin punks, then yeah, it's the punk
sets.

Like you use a plant that you use in a plant.
To smoke some mafia. It's adevice this plant is a device
for something. Yeah, but noserious listeners. loyal
listeners. The first one toemail tribal research
specialist@gmail.com. We willsend you a complimentary coffee

(52:54):
cup. I

will research coffee mug,

tribal research specialist coffee mug because
I'm curious. The lump sumcurious a

lot. That means you want to count them. I

do in it.

Because I ate all right, I

gotta count them up. So what count them up? And
then you're, you're on yourmuted. There's Felicia if you're
trying to tell us something.

And the transcript.

Well, yeah, I'll print transcript do word count.
Okay, let's get off this topicbecause we killed it. We've
dot matrix.

It's killed us.

It's killed.

Do you never did? Oh, did you even answer me
about that gang fight?

Yeah, is it? Is it appropriate time

to enter a gang fight?

Let's think of a different word than smoking.
Let's let's try that. Let'slet's replace the word smudge
with let's see what's a goodword? Oh, skinny Cow. Cow. Word
we didn't say for me to saveword. What do you say?

(54:09):
Eyelashes. Eyelashes. Is itwould you eyelash yourself
before a gang fight? Or wouldyou eyelash yourself during a
gang fight? No. I mean, you kindof want to be in the moment. You
don't want to stop and I lastyourself. Sounds weird.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I know. I've lost I've lost total control of this
episode. I had a point. I had apoint. And it's gone. Somebody's
got to rescue it.

Okay, okay.
Pull

us in. Because there's a point here. There's an
important point here that wewhen we've made a couple of
them. And I think well, I knowlet me tell you Well, you tell
me what you thought it was. I'mgonna see if your active
listening

is not praying at a meeting. No

praying at a meeting.

We talked about that for a long time

that was an example I know well maybe
Aaron's he's I think he's justin a digest that bullet dairy he
just wolf down check

on what I'm, I'm waiting for the conversation to
start because this is I don'tknow what you're doing today. I
don't know what your goal is. Idon't know why you're coming at
us with this bush league. I callbush league. Okay,

okay, good, good, good. I, well, you know, one of
the points was sort of what ourobservations and our
responsibility to addressdiscrepancies and how we might

(56:07):
be misread as representedoutside of our communities. Oh,
there's, there's a number ofpeople in, in, in our in, in and
outside of our communities rightnow that misrepresents sort of
some of our cultural practices.
Yeah, misrepresentation? I don'tknow. This is the one I don't

(56:32):
know. Does that do harm? Oh,couldn't do it. I'll

quit doing it.

This was actually another intervention for Aaron
for him to what

did you What do you get off?

Acting fake?

Acting plum fake.
My senior. You're always acting

fake

it's scaring me yeah, I'm gonna

come you're always acting fake

Okay, so I'm really actually say that, you

know, acting bad though. You're always acting
bad. Why are you always actingbad?

Okay, that's the question. So that's the question
is I didn't hear

the question. Come on, man. Oh, what

did I miss?
are talking aboutmisrepresentation? We're talking
about we've

been misrepresented and smudge.

No, that was just an example. That's an example to
illustrate an example of yes, weare doing that's really
representative. Well, I know, Iknow that that was that was
that's the point,misrepresentation. And then
responsibility of, of communitypeople who are in the no

(58:06):
responsibility of communitypeople to do something about it.
Do something about it. Yeah.

What? You know what, though, it's like, the
it's there's like two separatecommunities. And I don't think
it'll ever be different now.
Like, it's just gonna keepgrowing. But there's back home.
Like, if you're not living athome, there's back home, there's

(58:34):
a back home community, that'sthe community back home. And
then there's the community,where you're at, which is not
back home, if you're not backhome. And it seems to be the
community where you're at whereyou see all of that most of the
time because Because anybodythat's in this outside community
in the outside community,probably would be who's scared

(58:58):
to go do what they're doing?
Back home home? Yeah, yeah.

Even if you're living back home, and your work
takes you somewhere else. Peoplecan kind of act up, you know,
act up in do stuff because theywant to be the showman or the or
the one to one we talked aboutthis about praying at the

(59:28):
meetings and all that stuff. Butwhat when WHEN DO WE when do we
have a what do we when should wehave there? When should we say
something?

I don't know. My whole My whole job as a
preservation officer is to saysomething right? Yeah, always I
meant I'm always talking abouthow we got to could be in
basically how I'm sick. It is socheesy. Perfect. normative thing
that's not only expected of us,but that we keep delivering.

Shandin Pete (01:00:05):
Yeah. Yeah. We,

Aaron Brien (01:00:08):
and I'm like, sometimes I feel like I'm
begging, I'm begging whitepeople to quit asking us to do
this. Because as long as you'reasking, we're gonna do it. We're
gonna just keep doing it. Like,oh, like, yeah, you know. So

Salisha Old Bull (01:00:23):
that's the thing, though, is like, there's
all these. There's all thesepeople who are indigenous
people. And they went throughsome trauma and, like,
historical trauma issue, like,maybe they were adopted or
something. And now they're old,and now they're ready to find

(01:00:46):
out where they're from. Andthere's, there's that. And
sometime, it's in that case,where that's happening. And then
it's, it's hard to, so that thatends up being I get, what the
question is, is when do you?
When do you say something?

(01:01:07):
Because and it's like, well,there's all kinds of factors
that play into it. Because ifyou're like an urban community,
you're got all kinds of peoplefrom all over the place, it's
not somebody, it's not probablynot going to be somebody from
where you're from. So what yousay isn't even going to be a

(01:01:30):
teachable moment to them.
Because you only know the stuffwhere you're from. So how are
they? Like, how are you supposedto say something if you don't
know nothing about where they'refrom? And then on top of it,
they need to, like, let's saythey do know something. And you
have no context because you'relike, in a city setting or

(01:01:57):
something like that, like you'rein an urban setting, you know,
like, there is no there is no abunch of group of people doing
the exact same thing. It's justa one person doing the weird
thing. Oh, a bunch of times.
Yeah, like, I guess that's howthey do it. Like, I wouldn't

(01:02:17):
know because I don't know howthey do it, where they're from.

Yeah,

this this topic is starting to hurt my brain.

Well, the thing I think about it is, is you know,
why why should we even care?
Because back home, I often thinkthat things are things are going
okay. And you're be wrong. Butyeah, but then But then again,
but yeah, but then again,they're going probably better
than it is when you're not backhome. So then that that makes me

(01:02:50):
think well why would I spend allmy energy on these things that
are not happening back home whenI got all these things that are
happening back home that Ishould be focusing on? Right now
I shouldn't try to put all myenergy into helping the
situation that feels a littlebit off but maybe I shouldn't

(01:03:12):
metal right when there's thingsback home that you sort of do
have some sort of influence oror some sort of way to help
shift and guide it in the rightway. So it goes to this point
where you know, where are weputting our efforts and how much
should we care now Aaron's in aposition where he has to care

(01:03:33):
because it's your job right

the facts the thing I'm not back home

you're back home so the things you say and you do
when you're not back home atthese things that you go to have
a direct effect to things thathappen back home Nick we need
like a flowchart you know mapthis

No we don't we don't need to skip this track on
this CD

skip it what

is what it's 1030 at night in Montana and I want
to talk about funny shit

I was trying to bolster up money but you were
resistant you are yeah youresisted it. I gave you some
pretty comical examples of whennot to smudge you in all your
total medicine man on means areyou sorry apartment ways. Back

(01:04:44):
home I use this this particularway. I was like dude, I'm just
trying to be funny make a joke.
Even caught you off guard andthroughout a good one and you
didn't follow you just youfolded my head

just gone through our transcript of our
conversation earlier Today,which maybe we should have ended
the show

I'm sure you could think of some good places not to
smudge that's what I was gettingit what is it? Not to be

in an airplane? You

get you get some federal charges. There you go.
You know? Funny that's prettyserious actually. Agenda no fly
list tell it Hey,

felonies are not a joke

those follow you for a lifetime. Yeah believe me

that wasn't funny

it wasn't funny at all. Fruit man low hanging
fruit. Okay,well Felicia has got maybe she's
got a funny example.

I don't know.
Well, they're all your examples.

Oh.
ValentineWhat was that a little Harvey
dreamer song? Oh, yeah. Yeah. together for 35 years

(01:06:27):
going straw. Yeah.
I made you this love song.

Happy anniversary.
It's not when to

you do you and you want her to? You and I? You and
for forever and ever. You andsweetheart. We

(01:07:00):
need many more. Hip Hop,grandma.

No, I don't remember hip belt. Yeah, they
come up with some dance. Youdrop. Oh. Oh, yeah, it's good.
Something.

Yeah. It's been a year since we've been without
the late great Clayton, Chief.
Founder of little island creasedsingers. Oh, yeah. One of the
greatest round dance groupsever. Iconic, iconic, iconic. So
just this last weekend, they hadhis first annual or his first
the for Memorial round dances.
Yeah. And in Saskatchewan, sothat's cool. I I'm not crazy. I

(01:07:48):
don't know if you think aboutwhat they do. But I think that's
a big deal.

It is a big deal.
Yeah,

it is a big deal.
Soalthough our song turned into a
little Island Creek cover songfrom the 1996 world champion
hand drum singers who?

Remember that long lead?

Which No, I don't think

it's thinking of a different tape.

At once, upon through time, we were singing
push that songs with the lateadmin old crow. Yeah, the old
tribal building and Kroners likeJeff McDonald, there's a bunch
of crow like kind of the Blackwas so group guys. And then me
and Timmy smells and we were allwe're gonna sing push dance

(01:08:41):
songs, you know? So we startedsinging push down songs. And I
don't know if our listenersknow, but push that songs are
kind of the crow version oflike, love songs. They're real
similar to round dance songs,man, but anyone who's heard push
dance songs knows they'repretty. They're like a really
pretty composed song. So we'resinging. And we're in a circle.

(01:09:02):
And this guy comes in one of thenight security guards because
we're singing at the tribalbuilding. And it's like late,
it's like 10 o'clock at night.
So he comes in with a popcannon. And on top of the
pumpkin he had burned a bunch ofsage and he set it on the
pumpkin. He thought oh, Ishould. I should like to smudge
for these guys. Yeah, so hewalks in between the circle of

(01:09:24):
singers and he sets that down.
And you know when sage isburning, it's produces a lot of
smoke. Yeah, so we're likejamming you know, singing these
pushdown sounds are pretty soonrock coffee. And then Edmund
just grabs that can walksoutside. He throws that smudge
out. You asked me when you'resinging?

Yeah exactly. That's it. Yes, you
can't was a good story. Yeah,good story. Yeah, heartfelt, and
answered the question all right,man, you know what? I don't

(01:10:09):
know. Let's let's cut it offthere, man. Aaron's getting
tired and grumpy. Is it grumpyguy? Man, he's you're almost
what? 45 that? Don't want to seeit. Okay, sorry.

I think we're sailing. Sure. We were only like
a year apart right? I don'tknow.

Came up awkward.

Wait a second my entire life? Did you skip a
year? My entire life? I thoughtwe were like, either the same
age or your year older than me.
Am I wrong? Are you like wayolder to me? are younger.

I'm older, but I think by year maybe? Yeah. Are
you turning 41?

Yep, this year? In May I'll turn 41

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I'm all confused now. Why? Why are
we poor shamed of age? Why isthat? I feel like old Indian
ladies wouldn't have been anardent shamed.

No, I don't and that's where the well okay, this
is another topic because howmany older ladies do you know
dye their hair? Black.

Now I'm talking about I didn't mean. Oh, oh,
time. Oh,

oh, whoa. Okay.
Yeah, let me recheck that.
That's yeah. Anyway, yeah. Yeah.
No, I don't think so. Why wouldyou be? Oh, no. That's the same
thing with like, how much peoplemake you know, what's wrong with
publishing everybody's salariesthat it worked for the tribal
government? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Hi,oh.

(01:12:06):
Let's do it.

I say go for it because I'm underpaid.

We ought to know who's getting over and underpaid
is pretty important. Yeah.
Anyway, that's different.
That's, that's differentpodcasts. And that's a good one.
We should talk about that onenext, you know, transparency and
treble government. Oh,no, no, I'm
just kidding. settled down. Youknow, we need to get we need to

(01:12:31):
wrap this. What?

Yeah, call it let's call it man. It was.

It's good. I don't want to say you don't want to
say because you got mad. ItYeah. What I didn't get mad. It
did. You get frustrated.

I mean, if you can only sit meetings with me, dude.
Like, this is such a commonconversation, this whole idea of
performative Abian bullshit.
It's like, yeah, it was justlike, yesterday. It was quite a
bit. yesterday. Yeah. You'regonna ask me, I'm in I'm on the
front lines. Do this to work.

(01:13:11):
Ain't no

joke, dude. No, no, no, I think you're even I
think you're I think you'reright in the trenches, even more
than academics might be. Oh,yeah, I don't think so. Yeah, I
don't think I've seen it asmuch.

lately. In fact, sometimes academics is part of
my problem. Like they'vecreated. The academic world has
created issues for me. Yeah.
It's like, Oh,

my God. Yeah.
So yeah, yeah.

That's a whole nother that's a whole nother
episode too. Right there.

There's a whole nother episode. But it's a
fun episode, though. It's likekind of what we were going.
That's kind of where we werelike that last little bit we
were talking about because it'slike, yeah, if you were to grab
somebody from here, and sendthem back home, they're gonna
find out it's not the way theythink it is. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think the ones that are really true
and sincere and really want toreconnect, that's what they do.
They find their way home andthen they they learn and you can
you can sort of see thattransformation of their their
understanding change. Yeah. Butin no way. Let's call this one.
All right. Call this son thiswas

it was good to visit with you.

It's fun. laughs at you

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#53 - A Smudge Too Far: Perils of Pretendigenous Smudging

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#53 - A Smudge Too Far: Perils of Pretendigenous Smudging