#57 - Conversation on Traditions: Walking Belly First with Indigenous Practitioners and Scholars - Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Aaron Brien (00:01):
I'm starting to regret the indigenous
archaeology um yeah term yeah,well, hey, that's the thing.
That's the thing, man, the wordindigenous yeah, it's, it's a
real thing, it used to be umwhat am?
What am I?
doing I'm tagging myself.

(00:22):
Yeah, that was a term coined by.
Well, I don't know who coinedit, but a guy named Joe Watkins
kind of popularized.
Joe Watkins Made it mainstream.
Indigenous yeah.
Indigenous archaeology.

Shandin Pete (00:41):
Okay, oh with the archaeology on it.

Yeah, yeah, so that that's making it a different
play off of that.
Oh yeah, like it's its ownfield, right, okay, all right,
but now I think I should havewent with tribal archaeology,
which is like that to me.
That just seems more like Ilike that tribal term more.
Yeah, it's cooler.

And you got to be cool man.

These days.
We need all the help.

We need all the help but I don't, I mean, I

(01:40):
don't know.
Well, let's listen to this tunethat I pulled from the archives
and then let me get yourthoughts on it.
You ready for it?
Yeah here we go here we go.

Can you hear it?

yeah, yeah, thank you.
Yeah, in a smooth sort of way.

Wait one more green guest on my podcast.
Oh my gosh.
I mean honestly, let's thinkabout one of my exes.
Oh Boom.
Boom.
Dream guest on my podcast.
Dream guest on my podcast.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, that's all.

Yeah, yeah, man, that's old uh, standoff 1987, I
don't know who was singing there, but kind of a catchy man.
It has that classic like oldagency black crossing.
Oh yeah, man, it's a smooth.

It's a smooth sign it's like this guy I seen
walking the other day.
And you know, I'm living herein Vancouver and I'm out with
the old fam eating and look outthe window and there's just
thousands of people walking allover.
Anyway, there's this one guyand you could pick him right out

(04:23):
and you say, oh, that's anIndian man.
You could pick him right outand you say, oh, that's a,
that's an indian man.
You could just tell.
And that tune, you could playthat tune, and you could just
tell, I mean, it matched hiswalk.
You know, you know how themkind of kind of indian guys walk
there.
They got a little bit of abelly, you know, and they got a

(04:43):
shirt with the sleeves cut offand you can I bet you can guess
what kind of shoes they'rewearing, given that the oh,
they're wearing those, um,they're they kind of look like.

Are you talking about the running shoe?

you kind of look well I know I'm just seeing what
I'm seeing.
I'm building the image.

So indian guy t-shirt with the sleeves cut off
oh, sleeves cut off and forsome reason I thought you're
talking about the belly and no,no, yeah, well, it was, but yeah
sleeves cut off.

He's got um, you know some what else he got on.
What do you?
What else he got on?
Trunks, trunks, he got trunkson.
And then what he's got on hisfeet oh yeah, big trunks, you
got trunks on and then what he'sgot on his feet oh yeah, big
trunks, and on his feet wow,this guy could either have
basketball shoes or flip-flopsoh, now let's okay.

(05:34):
Not basketball shoes, but crocs.
No, no.
To be a little bit morespecific now, this is probably a
guy, maybe about, I don't know,maybe about six years younger
than I, six to ten, somewherearound there, not basketball, oh

(05:56):
man, not basketball shoes.
No.

Not flip-flops, skater shoes, come on man?

No, Just think about it.
Slides man?
No, I don't know.
Slides man?
Oh slides, socks and slides.

Socks and slides yeah, they're probably black.
They're probably black slidestoo.
God dang it.
They're black, that's on me,man.

I know You've been behind the desk too long.
This week.

I know man, I know, I know I should.
You've been behind the desk toolong this week.
Oh man, yeah.

You got to get out more.
You got to get immersed withyour people again.
Anyway, that song reminded meof his walk, you know, because
he's kind of walked belly first,you know all those.
Indian guys walk belly first,you know, got a little bit of a
strut.
You know all those Indian guyswalk belly first, you know, got
a little bit of a strut.
You know it's more of a bouncekind of a bounce.

(06:50):
You do it more when you'rewalking with your pals, but if
you're by yourself it's not somuch.

Yeah.

But anyway.

Yeah, belly first.
I like that Walk belly first.

If you're going to go into a place with confidence
, you go belly first Go bellyfirst.

That really sets the tone.
Oh yeah, yeah.

People look and they see.
What do they see?
Your belly.

And then they say this guy, this guy means
business.

This guy means business.
This guy means business.
He's got the business.
I like the ones who dress up.
They get all dressed up withthe button-up shirt.
I'm saying this because I knowI'm probably going to be there
in about 10 years or less.
I don't know.
They wear the button-up shirtand the sport coat, but it don't

(07:52):
matter, the belly is stillfirst.
Those buttons are just tight.
You know, you dare not buttonthat sport coat.
It won't hold at all.

It ain't going to hold at all.
You ever look at people andthey dress up and it looks like
they're going to court, like yousee, like an indian dude, and
you're like man, I shouldn'tjudge this guy like I shouldn't
I shouldn't do this to him, butit really looks like he's going
to court.
That don't look like.
That's how he dresses.
He's not going to work.

(08:32):
This guy's going to court.
Hey man, I texted a song.
Is there a way to play it?
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you can usually tell by the kind of
shoes they're wearing.
You know, the shoes just don'tquite match because shoes is
kind of an investment.

You know you gotta yeah, if you're just gonna if
you're just like what kind of awearing it for a one-time deal,
you're not gonna, yeah, fullyinvest in no, no, no, no reason.

No reason to invest, so you just wear.
You know you get the cheap onesthat kind of look like plastic,
I don't know.
Okay, I'm gonna show you wantedme to play this song yeah, I
mean, it reminded me of thatsong.

You're just playing your request from crow.
This is from crow.

Okay, your request has been fulfilled.
Okay, here we go.

Yeah.

It's kind of the same feel.

Thank you, here we go.

Yeah, mm-hmm.
What is that?
That's a hot dance song, as perthe title.

That's just what crows call, what everybody else
calls war dance or grass dance,the war dance.

Yeah, it has the same man.

that's a good song.

It is.
It's got a little melody.
You know that's what I thinkabout it A little melody kind of
floats around.

So even though the crows are kind of in eastern
Montana, we kind of getculturally by other tribes, get
lumped in with like the Lakotasand the Arapahos and the
Cheyennes, yeah.
But when you listen to ourmusic, to me it sounds more like
how Nez Perce people sound andSalish people and Blackfeet

(11:44):
people.
Yeah, and this might contradicteven what I've said in the past
.
But the Blackfoot people have adistinct beat, like kind of a
tempo to their style.
But the way songs are composedit seems like it fits like how
Rocky Boy people sound and sing.
It's more like I don't know, itjust has a different.

(12:06):
It's pretty nuanced.
I guess what that is, becausepowwow music sounds like powwow
music to everybody.
But you can tell People knowlike people pay attention to
singing.
There's a certain it's hard toexplain, like I was even trying
to explain it.
There's a young drum group here.

(12:29):
They're just starting out outlike they made their debut, like
last week and yeah, they soundpretty good for a new drum group
and one of my relatives singswith them and he came up he said
well, how did we sound?
I said you guys sound goodyoung, sound young.
And he took that as like a.
I think he took that as kind oflike a diss.
But it's like no, no, like yoursong style is young, it's like

(12:50):
young people shit, you know yeah, yeah like if you came out to
me and you were singing.
If your sound not and I don'tmean sound like yeah literally
like the way the songs you'rechoosing to sing.
The songs they were young, realyoung, modern, and I wouldn't

(13:11):
even say contempt, but there'salmost like Mystic River,
straight but young voices.
Some of them are older dudes,but their voices are young.

It seems like there's a temptation, when
you're just starting out, noteven even you know, when you
kind of get past that startingout moment, like you realize
that you need, um, you need yourown songs, you need to sing
your own material and if youdon't have a kind of that gift

(13:46):
or people to gift you, songsthen seem like the songs are
that are composed or somethinglike that.
You know, that's what itreminds me of, kind of I don't
know, not refined, you know in away, yeah and it's hard to
explain unless you know singing.

Even I'm not a great singer and I'm not even
like as experienced as a lot ofpeople, but I've sang enough
with enough knowledgeable peopleto know like I've almost become
more of a fan of it as opposedto being a singer anymore yeah
but like listening to them.
And then there's another drumgroup that's about two years
ahead of them.

(14:26):
Yeah.
And you can tell like theirvoices are still young and
they're still developing theirvoices, but like their beat is a
lot more like there's a bounceto it.
Now the songs they're choosingto sing have a little more
liveliness to them.
Whatever that is and that'shard to explain, but the the
young, young people and I I'mguilty of it too yeah, songs

(14:48):
that are fun to sing when youfirst start singing are like
painted horse.
You remember how like paintedhorse used to sound yeah, yeah
the way, the way we are, songs,you know like hey, uh, wait,
wait, oh wait, uh, hey, we ohwait, uh, hey, yeah, oh wait, oh

(15:10):
well, hey, you know, I'm justmaking it up, but there's like,
uh, like, and you're just kindof like like it's hard to
explain, but you're like yeahlike let us, let us bring it
home.

It's like telling a joke that you think's real
funny and nobody laughs nobodylaughs.

But you're like, but your friends all laughed at
it.
So then you start a drum grouptogether so like, yeah, I just
think about it, and actuallyI've been thinking a lot about
this the last week or so.
Yeah.
Because there was a prettywell-known singer here that

(15:52):
passed away.
Oh.
And I'm sure you've heard of him, Austin Little Light Nighthawk
Juniors, you know.
Oh yeah.
Like he was like the main guy.
We're close in age but yeah,when they, when he first started
that drum group with hisbrother and there's like there's

(16:12):
a handful of them, yeah, I Istarted singing with them at the
very beginning, you know, and Iand I so I remember like that
kind of that, the excitement ofstarting a drum group together,
you know, or the excitement I Iwouldn't say I started the drum
group with them.
I just kind of.
It was almost like we we hadlike three, four guys we were

(16:34):
singing on our own for a shorttime and they had their.
They were like, hey, let's gettogether and sing, ended up not
working out, but that excitementof, like we know, five songs
yeah, right, and it's like andjust thinking about like how
much?
Because you know I'm a human.
So I started thinking aboutlike, oh man, like he's gone,

(16:55):
like I remember singing in hisliving room, or he come to our
house and singing and I wasthinking you don't know anything
, like you don't know nothing sothen, when you think about
someone who starts a drum group,whether that drum group is good
or not.
It takes a lot of balls to starta drum group oh man, yeah,

(17:20):
especially in communities wherethere's a lot of experienced
singers which are all judges.
They're all judges and coachesand critiquers of what you're
gonna do yeah, so for for him tostart a drum group at that time
.
I think it, it it's a it takes alot man, takes a lot of guts to

(17:43):
do that, because it's easy justto wait for somebody else to do
it and then just sit with themjust jump in sit with them you
know, but like to say, no, we'regoing to do that and then to
name your drum group after areally well-known drum group in
Indian country, but also likekind of a foundation traditional
drum, like people who know andare really respected, you know,
yeah, the Night yeah, but alsolike kind of a foundation

(18:03):
traditional drum, like peoplewho know and are really
respected, you know yeahthe nighthawks, nighthawk
singers and all that.
So, yeah, so today, when I sawthose young drums singing and
then thinking about my own timestarting out singing and not
knowing anything but being likesuper jacked about it, like just

(18:25):
wanting to sing, and just like,oh god, I don't care, I don't
know, I didn't mean to cuss, butlike, and for me it was always
like round dance singing.
You know, that's what got mestarted.
But yeah, I was thinking about.
I just watching those two youngdrums today and I was thinking
they're like it just reminded meof when I was 20 or 18, 19, you

(18:47):
know.
Yeah.
And thinking damn like.
But in that amount of time,from 2000 to now, these are the
two youngest drum groups tostart.
There's no, there's nobodysinging, hmm.

So Nighthawk started.

Yeah and Crow here.
So Nighthawk juniors startedroughly around then 2001, 2002.
Yeah.
So since from that time to now,there's really hasn't been.
Hmm.
So it's good, right, it's good.
I think so.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's, it'sgood that there's some young

(19:26):
singers yeah yeah, so then.
So then that makes me think asa singer, or somebody who has
experience in singing, whensomebody asked my opinion, maybe
I shouldn't give my opinion,maybe I should just say man, you
guys sound good, keep it up,they're not asking for coaching
yeah they're not asking foryeah, yeah because we just want,

(19:50):
we didn't get a self-esteemboost yeah, because man them
singers like sargi o'horn andand uh, gary pretty paint, yeah
and um frank caplet and claytonmountain pocket, they were like
not patient, necessarily Goodsingers, but they weren't
patient, so like if your stickwas off they'd hit your stick,

(20:11):
you know.
Oh yeah, and so like.

Go a few another decade back, you'd get punched.

Yeah, dude.
And then you know traveling orstarting to travel around, and
people are strict like youcouldn't even reach over the
drum.
No, no, pass things around likeyeah, right and so, and people
are very upfront like hey, don'tdo that, don't do that, don't
do that so there's got to bethat's kind of encouragement I,

(20:44):
I don't know, it's kind of aproblem.

I, I think today, you know, you see that in a lot
of things, you know, you don't,you don't want to hurt people's
feelings, you gotta reserve thecritique in a certain way if you
because, if you like, if youtell the truth, that's gonna, um
, you know, not encourage peopleand they might give up like

(21:06):
real, real sensitive.
You know that's an issue youthink it is.

Yeah, no, it's an issue.
But also, at the same time too,there's some benefit to those
strict people.
There's certain there is,because one.
So so my cousin, uh, my cousincomes up we visit, a lot about
singing, yeah.
And then I said there's,there's more to singing than
just singing a song,structurally just singing a song

(21:33):
.
There's all this drum culturethat's almost separate from even
powwow yeah regular culture.
There's this yeah drum culture.
It's like drum rules even likewhere you're sitting at the drum
is orchestrated and a lot oftimes you don't even have to
talk about it, right?

you already know yeah.

So like if I show up to a drum I've never sat at
before and I'm just like, hey, Iwant to sing a song with you
guys and they're like welcomingright, go for it.
I I'm not gonna go sit right bytheir lead singer, right, I'm
gonna like sit kind of over here.
I'm not gonna like try to takedown beats or like ask for leads
or say like hey, sing this song.
It's like I'm just here, I'mjust hitchhiking man, I'm yeah,

(22:21):
I just want to sing a song andand so you learn.
Like these weird rules, likethat.
I notice young kids don't learnbecause they're learning how to
sing in school.
What yeah, like say, they go toschool and they join an Indian
club and they learn?

how to sing at school.

Oh, right, right, right.
So at school it's like it's aclub Everybody's got to.
You can't be mean to everybody,oh but.
Oh yeah.
You start singing with, likeexperienced singers who, where
their foundation is likeceremony, yeah, and then also
like their dedication is to thedrum, so like if these old guys
would be like we're going to setup this weekend.

(23:00):
Whatever they said, they reallydo, like they really sit there
and they really, you know youngguys, they just and I'm guilty
of it too, because I I learnedthe hard way too I had people I
got kicked off of a drum beforefor that like just being too
relaxed.
So chill yeah.
So I wonder if these young guys,if they were ever to experience

(23:24):
that, would it discourage themto the point where they quit
singing?
Or would they be like, well,that's just the way singing is,
so I gotta step up.
I don't so my in my mind.
I don't think that's how theythink.
They think all those guys area-holes I'm not gonna be, around
them.
But then when you realizeyou're like no, that's the
culture of singing.
There is a hierarchy in singingwhether we like it or not,

(23:49):
there is yeah, yeah yeah, yeah,I, you're right, man, that and
that I don't know.

There's a couple problems there and I know we
talk about we talk aboutproblems, a lot about issues,
and um this, this misconceptionabout, um, our life ways, if you
will like.
Oh, there's no.
There were no hierarchies amongnative people and thought, and

(24:17):
everyone had a voice and anopinion, and all that and that
sounds cool.
You know, it sounds like yeah,I guess, but that's not.
I don't, that's not true, man.
I don't think it's true.
I don't think, unless I don'tknow, unless maybe the thing
you're talking about now is, uh,and I don't want to say it, but

(24:40):
I'm gonna say it, I hope Idon't set you off Are you ready?
Maybe it's a colonial construct.
It seeped its way intotradition.

So you don't think there was a, you don't think all
these rules existed in the past.

I don't, I don't think that.

I don't.

Not at all.
But some may Think that, thinkoh well, you know, it's just
Cause our ways.

Give me, give me an example.
Give me an example of a rulethat you think exists now, that
didn't exist in the past.
So I have some idea of whatyou're saying.

Oh, I don't even know.

Because right now you're just shitting all over
the place.
I'm just kidding, I'm justkidding.
No, I want to know.
I want to know.
No, I don't know.

I'm just playing off of the stereotype that is
continually perpetuated amongnon-Indians and Indians alike,
that our way of doing things waslargely non-hierarchical.
You hear that often, right,yeah?

that you're saying, that you agree.
You agree that our system wasnon-hierarchical.

No, I agree that it is, that it was.

So you're agreeing with me then?

I'm agreeing with you, man, yeah.

Oh, you made it sound like you were disagreeing
with me.

Well, I wanted to argue.
I wanted to get you on it.
I wanted you were disagreeingwith me.
Well, I wanted to argue.
I wanted to get.
I wanted a good old-fashioneddisagreement.

No, I I think there was, yeah, levels of hierarchy
within tribes.
I don't think tribes that'slike real modern right, like
this yeah egalitarian, likeeveryone's equals kind of.
Thing it's like man I.
I just don't think it was likethat, you know yeah I, I, I
think of course there's anunspoke, there's unspoken shit,

(26:48):
you know yeah yeah, and withouta doubt, whether whether we want
to believe it or not, insinging there's a hierarchy.
There is, there is yeah and like, and if there was ever A really
, really Astute Nativeresearcher that understood

(27:11):
singing and wanted to writeabout it, I don't think it would
take much To like, see it, tolike Okay, this is how, like me,
someone like me.
Yeah, we'll go to what peoplecall a traditional powwow, right
?

yeah, okay, today's version today's version
of this generation's version.
Yeah, yeah, which is just what,not a non-contest power right
and let's just say, let's justsay, let's just say um yeah.
Let's say, let's say blackstone, black lodge, let's just
say, let's just say let's justsay um, yeah.

Let's say, let's say Blackstone, black Lodge.
Let's say Black Lodge.
Singers were at this thing,right, okay, got it.
Do you think I could just walkin and say oh, I want to sing
and go up to that drum and pullmy chair up and start singing?

No.

No, they wouldn't, wouldn't happen.

Unless you're known, happen Unless you're
known.

Unless they know me Now.
Could Mike LaFramboise do that?
Or John Stiffarm?
Yeah, probably, man.
They're probably not going toturn him away, right yeah?
And me as a singer.
I would know I'd be like ofcourse.
Yeah, of course Go ahead, andcourse yeah, of course you're
gonna let them go ahead and sayit's safe.

Yeah, say what you're gonna say oh, I'll say,
or even even for that matter,would they even do the same
thing that you are describing?

no see but also they wouldn't do that yeah
because they.
That's just not even theirthing.
For one, I mixed genres there.
For people who don't know.
I mixed Two straight singerssinging with a contempt group,
yeah, so it's probably not evengoing to happen, but yeah.

But yeah, we get the.

Yeah.

We get the flavor of it.

Yeah, it's really nuanced so sorry, that's.

You're pretty sorry today?
No, that's.
You're pretty sorry today.
Um, no, that's that's so.
That's just human nature.
I mean you, you can go to, youcan talk about anything.
Let's talk about plumbing.
Okay, 100 or I don't know, 30year, a 30 year, 30 years in the
in the business plumber um isnot just gonna invite to you

(29:24):
know someone who's just startingout to go do a real tough job.
Right, there's a hierarchy,there's a, there's a order.
You're gonna choose someonewho's a bit more senior to help
them with the tough job.
It's just about experience.

It's about experience and knowledge in that
particular time in time I'm putin time, put in and it's a
combination of that, becauseI've also seen people who sat at
the drum for years, years andyears and years and years and
they still are considered likethey're not someone who you
would be like yeah, put on those.

(30:03):
So it's a combination of those.
So, like certain plumbers,right, yeah, you could put five
years in, I could put 15 yearsin.
After a certain point you'rejust experienced.
But then also, what did you doin that time?
yeah and people recognize that,like I think I'm not even a big
powwow guy, but I think it'salso a good way to like gauge

(30:26):
social behaviors of contemporarynative people, because it's the
largest social thing we do,right yeah, yeah, cross tribal,
intertribal social affair, yeahyeah yeah at least, at least in
yeah, at least in the plains,and and the rockies here
and the rockies, yeah, yeah yeah, you get outside of that too,

(30:49):
though it starts to change,because then it it's it's so new
with their people that theyhaven't they actually don't have
those hang-ups yeah, yeah andso that's why some people say go
to certain regions to powwow,because they like them.
I think partly because there'sa freedom to it yeah, yeah,
there's not those hang-ups.

(31:10):
There's not these weird hang-ups, you know sure, sure anyway, I
never intended for this to be uma podcast about singing, but
yeah, I was thinking about itbecause austin, the passing of
austin little light, and thenactually there was another
passing of a guy named mike miketucks, different, who oh yeah

(31:32):
pretty respected singer fromfort belknap yeah, he passed
away too, so two well-knownsingers yeah um, yeah, yeah, two
very different culturaljourneys.

You know both those people, so sure yeah, well
, that's pretty interestingwhat's up, what's up, what's up
what you're talking about iswhat's up?
Those are all interestingthings in it, like I mean, sure
it's.
It's very specific, like the.
The thing you're talking aboutis very specific but, like you

(32:05):
said, that phenomenon of thegathering of Native people to do
this very specific thing, thereare expressions of the way we
think and the way we act and ourmannerisms still exist there

(32:26):
today.
Now we don't want to get intothe debate about whether it's
ceremonial or not.
You know, I think we we talkedabout that, but that's less of
the less of the of a of a thingthat I that I kind of emphasize.
It's more that that the waypeople are really interested in,

(32:47):
in, in how, um, native orindigenous people think, and
there's a lot of um I thinkthere's a lot of generalizations
that don't quite capture thecomplexity and the thing, and
the thing you brought up rightnow is a good example of that
Like relational thought, youknow, and holistic thought,

(33:10):
non-reductive thinking, you know.
You can go on and on aboutthese different attributes that
are common in academicliterature, about an Indigenous
way of knowing and doing things,and one of them I guess that
you hear a lot that I was kindof mentioning is this

(33:31):
non-hierarchical sort of fluffylove, love, sort of lovey
feeling that you get when you'reinteracting with native people.
I think it's far too romantic.
You know we're humans and wehave.

(33:51):
You know, we got feelings and wehave experience that tells us
Well.
So this is a good example.
If you don't discipline yourkid, if you just give them love,
are they going to grow up right?
Native people.
We're not just all free, loving, relational, uh, um uh.

(34:12):
Non non-hierarchical beings.
We're subject to the rules ofhumanity, just like anybody else

(34:35):
.
I see it far too much.
I see it far too much andpeople write about it still
today.
Indigenous scholars write aboutit and it just Everybody's
voice matters.
Everybody.

It's like I feel like these are people.
So there's, there's this weirdThing in academics where Native
scholars if you were to take thenumber of Native scholars, just

(35:11):
for this sake of conversation,master's degree and higher that
are practitioners of theirbeliefs, not by their own
standards but by their communitystandards Like, say, their
community says like, if we wentto the communities and said, hey
, you pick out four scholarsfrom your community, yeah, that

(35:31):
you would say are practitioners,not people who are just talking
about.
Yeah, I think you'll find thatthe overwhelming majority is
people who their own communitiesdon't see them as practitioners
of their culture, right?
Do you think that's fair to say?
Like, just from yourobservations?
Is that unfair to say?

You know, be honest, man, ah, man, well, yeah
, I think so.
I think so.
You didn't want to agree withme.

No, I did want to agree with you, but you didn't
want to agree with me.

No, I did want to agree with you, but I, I didn't
want to cast too wide of a net,you know, because, well, no,
okay, yeah, I'm, I agree and I'mjust thinking about it.
What?

but I, we can only talk about our region really
like I don't know what, thesouthwest or yeah, so everyone
kind of knows what we're doingup here, but yeah, well, would
you agree or disagree?

no, I I think I agree, I think that I agree.
And, um, I think one of theissues is there's, um, you know,
there's a sort of this uh, well, okay, you know the state we're
in, you understand the statewe're in as native people.
Where we we're, we're playingcatch up with certain things

(36:45):
that have been lost.
Well, there's, I guess there'stwo different routes, right,
some people want to play catchup and try to revive things that
have been lost.
There's another group of peoplemaybe they're sort of the same
ones, but they're trying torevise or or uh, or uh,
repurpose traditions to meettoday.
Not consciously, it's just likethis unconscious effort that's
going on, right, so there's kindof those two little streams of

(37:08):
people and in the meantime, wehave this other thing happening,
this other thing happening with, with the things that we need
to to live in a modern world,right, education, education,
people.
I mean, you remember whenyou're a kid, everybody tell you

(37:29):
got to go to school, you got todo this, that well, yeah, and
I'm a crow.

So we come from the most famous indian education
quote ever.

Oh, yeah, yeah, let's hear it.

With with um.
With the white man's education,you're his equal.
Without it, you are his victim.

Chief money cruise right, yeah, yeah, there it is
so it was freaking pushed.

It was pushed on us yeah, yeah, yeah, so you.

So you got that, you got that, those two things
going right.
Meantime, all the all, the um,I mean what I would view as sort
of the traditionalists, right,the ones who grew up knowing a
way that we didn't.
They never had the opportunityto go to school and I don't know
if they were interested if that, if I had the same opportunity
that we had today, would they goto school?

(38:16):
I don't know, I have no idea,but you have like these two sort
of things that are mismatched,right.
So traditionalists generally,that that from what I call, like
what I think of traditionaliststhat were, you know, raised by
their grandparents, whosegrandparents were raised by a
generation that was the closest,as we know, to sort of the, the

(38:37):
tp days, or, you know, the likethe, the posts, like really
post reservation days, when yeah, yeah things were as intact as
we can I mean you're limitingthe the field like quite a bit
now yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you got, so you got thisphenomenon going on and so
meanwhile these two tracks aresort of moving forward, and so

(39:00):
you just don't have thatopportunity for those things to
intersect.
And additionally, I'm going tothrow something else on top.
If you think about those whohad the opportunity to become
educated, those who havemulti-generational success in
achieving advanced education,those aren't, those aren't

(39:23):
generally what you think of asthe traditionalist type of
people.
No, no, I mean not.
Not, I'm not making anyjudgment about any of it, but
I'm just saying that's the fact.
It seems like the facts Ishould say yes yeah, and I think
that's what.

That's what people have a hard time with yeah, yeah
yeah, people have a hard timewith well for one
self-reflection right andlooking at their own stuff like
I wouldn't say I fit a lot ofthose even you know like.
But yeah, but I also recognizeall of that like I'm.
I'm one of the few people whoeven talk about it.

(40:03):
I don't hear people have theseconversations, do you no?
no, no, no, it's a toughconversation to have, I think
because it it also points, shedslight on your own stuff yeah
you know, and it's like peopledon't want to sit around and
talk about, especially inacademics, because everybody's

(40:25):
right, everybody has a voice andand everybody, yeah, okay, so
for example in the grass danceceremony.
Okay.
Like in Crow, here we have likedistricts yeah, so the last two
districts that are, I would say,somewhat active, meaning that

(40:48):
that ceremony has Been practicedin the last 30 years.
Is the Lodgegrass district andthe Black Lodge district.
I hold a position In thatsociety, in that ceremony for
the Lodgegrass district.
So in some ways, right yeah, Ihold some authority with that

(41:08):
ceremony.
Okay, I'm the drum, I'm thedrum owner, right Okay.
But do I know everything aboutwhat I'm even supposed to do, or
even about that ceremony?
No, yeah, I've never actuallydone the ceremony, I just hold
the position, I have the title.
So how many scholars do youknow they'll meet them both,

(41:29):
like where there's experienceplus title.
So you have the authorizationof somebody, like if some yeah
oh man, we actually had this,this.
This brought up a pretty.
This reminds me of a prettycontroversial topic that you and
I were part of.

Oh, really what.

Yeah, where we had the owner of a certain ceremony,
the owner of it who?
Wanted to research its origin.
Yeah.
And the IRB denied him, deniedhim yeah he was the researching
scholar yeah and actually theowner of that particular
ceremony with his people yeahand the institutional review

(42:14):
board yeah.
Denied his own research?
Yeah, and that is to me likemind blowing.
Yeah, I don't know why what wewere talking about just now made
me think of that.
Yeah.
But it's like who holds moreauthority in that research, the
IRB or that person?

(42:36):
Yeah.
I'm like why it's his.
Yeah, he's the owner of it.
Yeah.

Yeah, that's really complicated.

I mean, no, it's not complicated, it's pretty
simple yeah for us, for us, it'spretty simple, but for them,
like I remember even havingthese conversations and we're
like wait, how do they not getit?
yeah, yeah At what point if theywere practitioners, the
institutional review board at atribal college, if they were
practitioners at a basic level,they would say, well, at the end

(43:10):
of the day, he holds theauthority of that particular
ceremony and if he's doingresearch on his own ceremony,
that's who we would consult with.
Anyway, if somebody came in andwanted to do the research on
that ceremony, they would say,well, we would actually need to.
We should figure out what thepractitioners or the owners of

(43:33):
those ceremonies think of that.
Well, this is the owner that'sasking the question and why he
it's so bizarre man, I forgotabout that we're going to need
him to read an informed consentto himself and, in addition,
himself.
Well, because the hangup wasthat he was going to talk about

(43:54):
sacred knowledge, right and likethings that the public doesn't
need to know.
Yeah, yeah.
But that he also is the personwho can say who gets to know?
Yeah, because he's the owner ofthat, and we respect that
authority.
Yeah, it was recognized, peopleunderstood that that person
owns that ceremony, so it's like, okay, well, I have no say over

(44:17):
him, and that you know.
Yeah.
Whether I believe he should havedone it or not, it's, it's yeah
it's not my place to say rightthat's like this, yeah, yeah, oh
, I'm sorry, no, no, in fact no,let me hear the fact
and, in fact, another issue thatwas brought up about this, this
idea of understanding yourcommunity and where

(44:40):
authorization is, andpractitioner versus non
practitioner.
We had another researcher thatjust wanted to film somebody
yeah, doing sign language, andbut, because that person yeah
was seen outside of thepopularity circle, it was like,
no, we're shutting it down oh,yeah, but it was like.

(45:02):
Well, that person's not evengoing after knowledge from the
video.
The person they're videoing, shealready knew the signs she was
just having this guy act out thesigns for plain sign language
and I was like I'm taking crazypills yeah, yeah and then.
So then I thought, wait, wait,a second.
The irb has now lost touch, theboard has now lost reality of

(45:25):
what their job is supposed to do.
Yeah, yeah, their job is notsupposed to protect native
scholars from native people yeahour native people from native
scholars yeah if their job issupposed to, is people take
being advantage of?
Are people fully aware of whatthey're sharing?
Who they're sharing information?

(45:46):
to and for what and for why?
Yeah.
But at no point should we betelling our own people that they
can't talk to their own people.
It was crazy to me.
It was, it was.
I forgot about that man.

Yeah, was it was I forgot about that man.

yeah, it's it, it would be a really interesting uh
case study to, yeah, to reallyknow what we were, what, what
did you want to talk about?
What we were?

just talking about .
I don't know what I was talkingabout.
Oh yeah, um, what was I talkingabout?
God dang it.
I don't remember.
I had a point.

I was getting to a point I know I'm sorry I messed
up, that's my bad?

well, no, I you know, I waded through your
stories about singing, which isreally important because it set
the stage for this important, uhconversation about authenticity
.
I I hogged the car no, no, no,no, no, no, no.
This is important.
So, given all that we'retalking about, okay, so number
one yeah let's walk through it.
Number one this uh phenomenon ofof singing and, uh, young

(46:54):
singers um falling into ahierarchy of when, what, how,
when and where to do thingsright.
Yeah, there's a heart.
You can't just walk into anyold, any old powwow and sit down
with anybody, you know.
It just doesn't work like that.
Now, I had a question aboutthat before I get to walk into

(47:19):
the number.
The second thing we talkedabout what if this happened?
Because they see this a lot andI want you to take on this
because this falls in line towhat I'm going to talk about
about this.
Next, this next idea oftradition.
So let's, let's okay, entertainme on this one so let's say
there's let's go back to thescenario of the of this, this

(47:39):
celebration.
There's a famous drum groupthere, well-known across Indian
country and into North Americaor American Canada, yep, okay,
and then some I don't want tosay a nobody, but nobody knows
this person comes in and wantsto sing.
So they approach this drum andif they're seeped in the

(48:03):
literature of indigenous matters, academic indigenous matters,
they would bring the lead singera gift of tobacco and ask to
sing with them.
Now, would that drum group, doyou think, in your opinion,
allow them to sing with them?
Now, would that drum group, doyou think, in your opinion,
allow them to sing with them?

Well, that's a tough one, because that also
yeah.
I think the majority of drumgroups that are like made it
that far and like are well-known.
I think they would.
I think the majority of them,but I think there's a few that

(48:47):
are also savvy enough to have anout.
Yeah, yeah.
For sure, man, you could sitdown, man, for sure.
Thanks, man, I appreciate it.
Come and sing a couple of songswith us, yeah, yeah.

I agree, I agree.
But let's change the scenarionow and let's see if it changes.
Let's pretend same thing, samedrum group, same person who
doesn't know, nobody with sometobacco.
Let's say this is a contest,powwow.
Now.

No.

It's straight up.
No, no Big difference betweennon-contest contest, powwow
power.
And why?
Why is it such a big difference?

Money, something's on the line, man, money's on the
line.
And in fact, the way thatperson's told no, the comfort
level is so Much different too.
Like the lead singer would betotally comfortable with saying
no, can't sing with us, contest,contest, can't sing with us

(49:58):
yeah um, also, it kind ofdepends on where you're at, like
.
Um, I feel like the further awaythat drum group gets from home,
the more likely they are toactually let somebody sit down
with them.
Oh, yeah, yeah, that's true.
Because, yeah, because I think,um for one, the people who are
going to approach a drum grouplike that and try to sit down

(50:20):
are typically singers, peoplewho know how to sing.
Yeah, you know because someonewho doesn't like singing doesn't
know the difference between umyoung spirit and dirty corner
singers.
You know they don't know thedifference, so like so, and if

(50:43):
there's there's nothing on online on the line, you know it's
it's.
It's more likely to be likethat's cool.
But I actually think theyprobably the local, they're
closer, they are to home mostpeople know if they're an
inviting drum group or not, likemost people know like don't
even go ask them yeah, yeah likeif if this actually happened to

(51:06):
me once my nephew came up, I'mgonna go ask such and such.
Sing with them.
I said don't do that yeah,because you knew and he said he
said why?
And I said they're not gonnalet you sit down anyway and
they're just gonna get yourfeelings hurt.
He said he kind of laughed atme, said no, I'm gonna go.
So he did and guess what?
They denied him to get hisfeelings hurt and got his

(51:26):
feelings hurt.
Yeah, not really.
I don't think he actually gothis feelings hurt.
Yeah, not really.
I don't think he actually gothis feelings hurt, but it was it
was it's a real thing, it's areal thing, where people do deny
, and so I think that was Sure,but at the same time, that's how
you find out.
You just go try, just ask.
Yeah.
Cause he likes singing right, helikes to sing so in, and he's
like I'll sing with whoever man,I'll just go and sit at a drum

(51:48):
and have a good time.
Yeah.
Because that's the vibe of thepala, or the vibe of the dance,
if it's a non-contest dance andeveryone's just kind of singing.
You get to a point, though,where you're good enough to sing
, even at those things wherethey'll probably say yeah, you
know.
Yeah, yeah.
They'll say, yeah, anyway, Ididn't mean for this to be like,

(52:15):
let's just talk about singingand stuff.

We're already in it.
Man, it's too late.
Okay, Wait.
So that was point.
Number one Talked about singing, Defined a pretty important
construct that you know it's not.
There's more to it.
There's more to it than whatone might think there is.

I think that's the point, that's the point, that's
the point to it there's more toit and there's a hierarchy.

It's not just this wide open thing where you just
show up and you can.
You can follow, uh, what peopleare using quite a bit these
days.
You can follow a protocol andbecome accepted in a certain way
, but at a certain level, right?
You can't just show up with alittle bit of tobacco and say I

(53:05):
want to lead all your songs, thenext five songs, yeah.

It's also just recognizing like these are
journeyman singers man these areprofessionals.
Yeah, yeah, like if you'resomeone who casually sings, even
though you can sing yeah it'sjust like man yeah, yeah, yeah,
dislike man, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You don't yeah.

Maybe leave him alone.

Don't go recommending songs and yeah,
nothing like that.
Yeah.

You know that.
Would you consider yourself aprofessional singer?

No, no, no, neither would I, I would not
Because it's not something I'mdoing regularly.

Yeah, it's not like I think it would take a summer.
It would take one summer ofsinging.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's likeriding a bike, right?

no, yeah, I mean, yeah, you have.
There's certain things you haveto get immerse yourself in to
become to that level, and peoplecan get to that quicker
depending on what you know, howmuch you know and and your
ability, all those things.

There's cheat codes too.

There's some cheat codes.

Oh, you feed the drum.

Let's not talk about the cheat codes have your
family feed that drum.
There's some real You'reinvited.

You're invited to Sean Dean Pete's.
Yeah.
There's some boys You'reinvited to.
Sean Dean's for dinner.
They walk over and you feedthem Little Caesar's pizza.

I've got a real negative cheat code.
I know it's true and it happens, but I don't want to talk about
it.

You can't do that, come on.

Well, you know, if you share a certain substance
abuse problem with certainpeople, then you're in You're in
.

You party with so-and-so.

You're in.
That's kind of the ugly side ofthings.
I don't know if that's likethat as much anymore, but it
probably is.
But even then it requires youhave to have skill, you have to
have some sort of aptitude forthe thing.
That's not the only thing.

(55:18):
So that leads to the secondpoint you made, which is the
practitioner versus thenon-practitioner.
We've talked about this a lot.
It doesn't matter what you do.
So okay, here's a good example.
In a class I had the other dayI showed a picture of, um, these
fisheries biologists right andthey're, they're cutting open
this fish.
You know, they got a notebook,just the picture.

(55:40):
So I'm asking my class arethese guys scholars?
and they see the you know thetrappings of scholarship uh
field book and the right in therain was the right yeah it's
probably right in the rain and ascalpel and they're wearing
rubber gloves, you know, lookslike they're doing something
scholarly, you know, studyingfish.

(56:01):
Then I showed them a picture, Imean, yeah, a picture of, uh,
some native fishermen, youpulling a bunch of salmon out of
the sea.
I said are these guys scholarsnow?
Oh no, those aren't scholars atall.
And I say which one do youthink understands fish
population better?
And they pause for a second.

(56:21):
Okay, yeah, those Fisher people.
Of course they understand fishpopulation.

Yeah that, that.
That would probably even be thesame for white fishermen Like
fish population yeah that wouldprobably even be the same for
white fishermen.

Yeah, of course.

In the Bering Sea, or something People really
understand.
Movement, it's the people whoare out there, yeah.
Scholars don't know nothing.
90% of the time man scholarsdon't know anything.
Yeah.
Not anything useful.
I mean for real dude, get them.

(56:54):
Well know, think about this.
Like we were talking before werecorded we were talking about
horses.
Yeah, bits you know put in amouth yeah there's a big
difference in somebody who likerides horses and somebody who
like rides horses and somebodywho makes horses.
You know what I mean?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So like somebody whounderstands bits like what

(57:16):
there's for like yeah, how toget a horse and into that bit?
Yeah, you could ride a bunch ofhorses like your whole life.
You could ride horses all thetime yeah that don't mean, you
make horses, though right,there's a special group of
people that make horses so to meit's the same thing.
It's like I can understand it.
I can even say all the stuff.

(57:37):
The horse stuff I don't makehorses, though, man yeah, yeah,
yeah I've tried, I've done allright with a couple I've also
ruined some, you know what Imean.
So it's like um yeah, it's thesame thing like these, these who
would you call the scholarversus, again, the practitioner,

(57:59):
and who knows more about it?
Man, I'm starting to think thepractitioner knows more.
It's the same thing with thefish, the fisheries people, man,
yeah, yeah, the scholar or thepractitioner, sure, and that's
sort of the, the, the um, whatis the word that mike likes to
use?

the dichotomy, the dichotomy that's trying to
bring in is, um, it's the what.
So you have to, you have tounderstand what the purpose is
of the thing that you want toknow.
And and so for the scholar, thefisheries biologist, they have
a certain purpose to fulfill.

(58:37):
That's not the same as thefisherman, or I should say
fisher person, because they'redoing what they're doing for a
different aim.
However, their understandingsmight overlap somewhat, but and

(58:57):
I mentioned this in the class Isaid how long does it take to
get a PhD in fisheries biology?
I don't know.
Three to six years, you know.
And then, how long does it get?
How long do you have to be afisher person to understand fish
population and movement?
And I don't know how long ittakes.
No, I don't know.

(59:19):
But the fact is they're stillfishing and they're still
utilizing that knowledge in aparticular way, whereas the fish
biologists maybe, they studyonly one certain fish, I don't
know.
Then I got caught in this trapof of I don't knows, I don't
knows, and I think it's the samething.
You're talking about thepractitioner versus the
non-practitioner, the scholarversus the, the doer and at some

(59:45):
point I think, in, in um, inindigenous academics.
You know, you get.
You get the few moments whereyou know that the scholar is
also a practitioner and you cantell by the manner in which they
speak of things and theauthority in which they have in
those things and the confidenceyeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:00:10):
So I don't know that was askingthe right questions.
Asking the right questions andthe right question and of the
right thing.
Yeah, not wasting time.
You know, not wasting time.
That was the second point, andthen the third point I don't
know what it is yet I'm tryingto get to this third point and
well, yeah, I interrupted youman.

(01:00:32):
Well, no, no, no, it's all right, that's right.
I didn't have a very coherentplan, so this is the one thing I
wanted to talk about and sortof ties into both of these.
So singing is a is a um, wouldyou?
Would you classify that as atradition?
Yeah yeah, it's a tradition.
Yeah, yeah, it's a tradition,right?

(01:00:55):
And practitioners, of course,also engage in tradition, right?
Would you say yes?
What about scholars?

Aaron Brien (01:01:09):
I agree.

Shandin Pete (01:01:16):
So let's say the non-practitioner scholar, do
they engage in tradition?
Yes, yeah, sure, oh sure, yeah,sure, sure, sure.
I picked up this manner ofspeaking where I say this a lot,
sure from uh, um, theseinternational students, they
would say that a lot and Ithought it was kind of funny.
It's sort of it's all from myperspective, they're all

(01:01:39):
international students.

Okay, okay, okay, mr turtle island 2024.

So yeah, they said sure, and I thought I had to
tell them what sounds kind ofdismissive.
You know that really is.
Yeah, somebody says, somebodysay sure, sounds like
non-committal.
Anyway, back to what I wassaying.
So what is the tradition?
I'm curious about this thing oftradition.
What is the tradition and whodefines it?

go, I mean, anyone can define a tradition.

Okay, right, it's repetitive, something repetitive
, right yeah yeah, okay, I think, so I agree we wear plaid on
christmas every year.

It's just what we do, it's what mom wants.
It's um, I want you to wearyour flannel jammies on
christmas day.
It's just what we.
It's just what mom wants, youknow.
And like mom says, when I'mdead and gone, I still want you
guys to do that, because it'lljust make me feel good.
You know, so we do.

(01:02:42):
That's what Grammy used to do.
That's what Grams did.
You guys remember her heart,Such a big heart.
Everyone knows Christmas washer favorite holiday and she
loved to have a Christmas ham.
We'd have a fire outside andshe'd tell us stories of her

(01:03:08):
childhood and just that.
We should be thankful, becauseshe lived through the depression
and she said there was a timeshe couldn't afford clothes and
so they had to wear theirclothes for school and for sleep

(01:03:28):
and for play.
They're clothes for school andfor sleep and for play, and so
that's why we wear pajamasflannel pajamas on Christmas as
a reminder of what Graham andwhat mom wanted.

You're monologuing man.

A good little monologue going there.
I do a good white person, I doa great white person, I do a
great, I do a great white prettygood man, yeah, so so tradition
so tradition, tradition.

I mean you could, you could start a tradition in.
Can you start a tradition in ageneration, in a single
generation?
Yeah, yeah, for sure, of course, right, I think that's right.
So then, um, oh, okay, fromfrom your, from your advanced

(01:04:22):
schooling, what's the purpose oftradition?

it could be a lot of things, man, man.
Okay, you could have socialtraditions like gatherings and
just to get together, and youcould also have traditions that
renew stuff.
The renewal of something, yeah.

But what's?
The purpose, though Like why.

Oh, I don't know, tell me why.
What?

No, I don't know why.

I don't either.

Let's go back to Grammy and the plaid pants.
Oh, okay, grandma, what wouldbe the purpose?

of maintaining that tradition.
In reverence because it bringsthe family together.
Yeah, I think that's it, Idon't know.

That's one thing I think Brings people together.
Yeah, it can be.
Brings people together.
Yeah, I think that's it.

I don't know that's one thing I think Brings people
together.
Yeah, it can be.
Brings people together.

Yeah, it affirms potentially values and norms.

It can yeah, it can , or even just a renewal of
certain histories.
Maybe you get together and tellfamily history.
Yeah yeah, yeah.

It came over on the boat.
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, how many came over on theboat?
Yeah, how many generations?
Has your family celebratedchristmas.

Sorry, three, three generations, three generations
of christmas maybe mygreat-grandparents, maybe maybe
not in the way you do now,though, of course no, I think
the way we do it now, I think itonly went two generations,
because then I'm not a hugeChristmas guy.
So I guess you could say westarted over in something.

(01:06:02):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah yeah.

Okay, I'm trying to think of my punchline here,
uh, my wrap-up on this idea oftradition, oh yeah, so um yeah,
we're.

This podcast is a testament to learning
disabilities we're gonna find asponsor.
That's uh I wasn very funny.
I wasn't very funny in thisepisode either, I don't know why
.
Well, I kind of made it somber.

I know you started out talking about people that
passed.

It was a memorial episode.

Well, okay, let's bring it home then, so tradition
can start in a generation.
Tradition affirms social normsand other constructs, the things
that people think are somewhatimportant, right?
Something like that, right, andthe important thing, I guess,

(01:07:10):
guess is that traditions canchange, or they ought to change,
depending on the needs of ofpeople and individuals yeah
those are all true.
Um, how do, how do, how do wedefine or can we define?
This is the, this is the thing.
So there's this thing called umtraditional ecological

(01:07:33):
knowledge, right?
there we go there we go, therewe go, boom.
So what?
What would make somethingtraditional about a piece of
ecological knowledge?
It could be something that wasrevealed in a past generation,

(01:07:54):
right?
Yeah, yeah Could be.
Yeah, could be right.
Or it could be something thatwas generations old.
One of the two, right?

Yes.

Yeah, yes, yeah.
So traditional ecologicalknowledge and any use of
tradition doesn't necessarilyimply old-timey.

No, no, no, no, no no yeah, I get what you're
saying now, but yeah, yeah, yeahno, and I think that's where we
, we, we mess up yeah it'sbecause we've somehow equated
antiquity with authenticity.
You know, Right, right, right.

And you've said that I think that phrase a
couple of times previous.

I think I said because Robert Lowy, an
anthropologist, said that crowsvalue success over antiquity.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the one.
Yeah said the crows valuesuccess over antiquity.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that'sthe one.
Yeah, help me understand that abit better, because I'm when I
hear you say it, I strugglesomewhat to understand.

I mean, I get what you're saying, but he's he's
talking specifically aboutceremony, um, so he's talking
about ceremony yeah, so likespecifically individual medicine
bundles.
So yeah, there's some medicinebundles that are discarded, some
are kept and people always say,well, wouldn't you want to just

(01:09:16):
pass those down?
I think, and I that's a verymodern approach to to to those
things, some sacred objects,they'll say, well, they don't
work anymore yeah this guy diedfrom smallpox.
Why would we want to keep hismedicine?
It didn't protect him.
So then they would say thatthey would say, well, we'll just
get rid of it, you know yeah sobecause you value what works

(01:09:39):
you.
So you look at somebody.
You say they're successful inlife.
What do they have, what do theyuse?
So that's what holds valuethere's.
Look at people's good fortuneand their luck versus their bad
luck and their misfortune, andall that you.
It's not as simplified as that,but it is simplified too at the
same time right just look, youjust look.

(01:10:00):
Just because it old.
It's old doesn't mean it works,you know.
And right um right, or viceversa, just because it's new
doesn't mean it's bad.

Right right, right Right, Native.

American church is a good example of that.
The peyote religion.
It came here, as it did a lotof places, and it erupted like
it took off, you know.
Yeah.
So that doesn't mean it's badthat someone practices it.
It clearly has found a homewith people you know and how

(01:10:37):
they value it, what it's donefor them.
We can't judge that.
That's up to them, you know.
I think that's kind of whatLoie's talking about.
So he's talking about practicesand beliefs and ceremonies are
based off of success and not offof antiquity, meaning just
because it's, just because it'sold and yeah to me, it's a very

(01:10:57):
practical approach to your ownbelief I think so.

Yeah, I think the idea that I was kind of um
wondering about was um, um, andI think I've said this before
that a lot of uh, climatescience has this understanding
that traditional knowledge,traditional ecological knowledge
, is going to solve some of theproblems we have.

(01:11:25):
And, um, I think we sometimesequate that with a time from the
past, but it reminds me of thefisher people, the practitioners
, and they probably are carryingor generating new knowledge of

(01:11:55):
their ecologies in which theysurvive off of, and I think
those would probably be morerelevant today than a piece of
TEK from 200 years ago.
I don't know.

I don't know.
I'm just kind of of curious.
I think it's all situational.
It's like I feel like it's allit.
I don't know, man, it can beeven just what the person needs
to hear too, like some stuffthat's valuable to you in that
moment ain't valuable to me, youknow, in the brand right.
I don't know though I don'tknow either.

I don't know, but I don't know.
Those are some of the hot, hotthings that are um out there now
that we've chatted about before.
But I wanted, I wanted tospecifically interrogate this
idea of tradition from yourperspective.
Number one tradition done meanit's old.
No, tradition don't mean it'sold.
No, tradition doesn't mean it'sold.
It could have come from ageneration previous.

(01:12:54):
It could even come from thecurrent within your generation.
Right, you could start atradition within your family,
and as long as you did it fromyear to year, it doesn't have to
be from generation togeneration.

Traditions can be.
It doesn't have to be fromgeneration to generation.
It could be from Traditions canbe.
It doesn't mean old.
The term doesn't mean old, itdoesn't mean new, it just.
Yeah.
I don't know.

I pick up my kids every Wednesday.
It's a tradition For the lastthree months, four months.

It's tradition something we do.
I don't think the term routineand tradition are that far off
in some sense.

Oh, really yeah well, yeah you're right, ain't
it?
I don't know, that's debatable.

I think one is maybe one is group tradition
seems like tradition.
Can tradition is only worthtalking about if it involves
more than one person.
I don't know, I mean.
You know what I mean?

Yeah, like flossing your teeth every night?
It's not quite.
Is that tradition or routine?
It doesn't quite elevate totradition, unless it's tied into
your beliefs.
But I don't know.
I believe in great dental careI believe in flossing.

I do too.
I bet we believe in it.
I bet we believe in it for twodifferent reasons, though.
Oh yeah, why?

do you?

believe in dental care.

Like personal hygiene.

You don't have stink breath, personal hygiene
you don't have stink breath.

What else that's about it?

You want to know why I like it yeah yeah, yeah, I
want to know.
Because I have crooked teeth.
So I always said, if I'm goingto have crooked teeth, they're
going to be clean, because youcan't have crooked and dirty
teeth, that's like what the hellman.
You know what I mean.

Yeah, you got to compensate one for the other,
right?

Yeah, dude, it's like come on.

You should get some Invisalign man.

I've talked about it oh yeah.
I've talked about it.

Okay.

I think I even talked to the dentist about it.

Oh yeah, you know what's weird, the weirdest thing
, I think.

I'd just get braces .
I don't think I'd do Invisalign, I think I'd just go braces, no
dude, the weirdest thing is aman with braces.
Don't do it.
Ease up on the term man allright dude.
No.

I'm just kidding, I don't want to.
Yeah, okay.

I don't know what that is.
I fill out out paperwork andit's.
I don't know I don't feel verymanly lately, you know.
Okay, all right, let's end it,this is this is it.

Okay, we're done.
I'm tired of it.
Okay, okay.

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#57 - Conversation on Traditions: Walking Belly First with Indigenous Practitioners and Scholars

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#57 - Conversation on Traditions: Walking Belly First with Indigenous Practitioners and Scholars