Episode Transcript
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Shandin Pete (00:00):
You hear me? Just
fine, yeah, I can hear you,
Aaron Brien (00:04):
yeah, like the
whole time I said it, did you
not hear me?
Shandin Pete (00:07):
I heard you. Oh, I
heard you. Just being facetious.
I'd be in facetious. Sufficious,sufficious. You just being a bit
of vicious. I just being alittle I, let's break that down.
I just being a little facetious.
That how you say it? Facetious,facetious, oh, for I can't say
(00:36):
it now, but ah, breathefacetious. There it is. Oh, what
you got going on there? Look atthat, lovers.
Aaron Brien (00:54):
That was in the
friend studio.
Shandin Pete (00:57):
That's when you
guys are in the friend zone.
Aaron Brien (01:00):
No, at, in LA at
the at, friends, you know the TV
show Friends,
Shandin Pete (01:10):
you said that was
when we were in the friend zone.
Aaron Brien (01:13):
No, I think she
still friend zones. Me, when
still friend
Shandin Pete (01:16):
zoning? Yeah, we
should
Aaron Brien (01:18):
get friend
shooties. They're in this paper
sack right here. And then thisone, this one is Big Bang
Theory. But then it just lookslike we're in luelas dorm room
in 2002
Shandin Pete (01:35):
It looks like
she's sitting next to the that
creepy guy on poltergeist withthe hat. You know it comes
walking by the house singinglike some Mormon hymn.
Aaron Brien (01:46):
We're sitting there
like she's we're sitting there
like it's the first time we'reat a white person house party,
Shandin Pete (01:56):
sitting up
straight, got your coat on,
still, hands on your lap,laughing at all the jokes
Aaron Brien (02:06):
that even made us
pick up A magazine,
Shandin Pete (02:12):
drinking water out
of a wine glass you
(02:36):
it. Check out this tune though,yeah, go ahead. No, tell me
Aaron Brien (02:43):
it wasn't for you.
What? It wasn't for
Shandin Pete (02:48):
you. Oh, you're
talking to me. Okay.
Aaron Brien (02:51):
I was not talking
to you.
Shandin Pete (02:53):
Oh, okay, check it
out, Man. Here we go. I
(03:40):
I like that. This is like that.
(04:05):
When they come in with the leadaround this era, you know, 1970
there's no role. They don'troll.
Yeah, then they hit the roll.
Aaron Brien (04:24):
I've heard that
song before.
Shandin Pete (04:25):
Yeah, it's
Badlands, 1971 yeah, oh no. I
don't know where it wasrecorded, or if it's a recording
of a recording, I just don'tknow,
Aaron Brien (04:39):
probably recorded
in Musco cheese.
Shandin Pete (04:46):
That's like an era
though, you know that lead?
Yeah, I remember doing that oncewhen I was singing with my mom.
I was really young, like 1415,maybe 1617, I can't. Remember,
but I busted out. I was bustingout leads like that.
(05:10):
Now about after a while, shesaid, can you stop doing that?
Aaron Brien (05:19):
Yeah, don't do
that. We don't do that around
here.
Shandin Pete (05:23):
You mean that's,
that's your era. Man, that's
your era. That's
Aaron Brien (05:28):
probably why she
reminds her of too many things,
too
Shandin Pete (05:32):
many memories.
Man, I'm feeling rough today.
Yeah, yeah.
Aaron Brien (05:41):
We don't have to
record long. We can just put
something down, you know,
Shandin Pete (05:46):
no man, we're
gonna go two hours. They didn't
know. Ain't no giving up, youknow, my I do like all the time,
like my little sister told meonce, said we're Indians. We
don't ever give up. We'replaying hide and seek.
Aaron Brien (06:06):
That's the real
context of the story.
Shandin Pete (06:08):
Yeah, yeah, she
couldn't find me. Her and my
sister couldn't find me. Theywere looking for hours. I felt
like hours. I was all sweaty,you know? And in the closet,
yeah, starting to
Aaron Brien (06:22):
throw sticks.
Shandin Pete (06:26):
They're like,
probably ready to give up. One
of them, my older sister, shewanted to give us, ah, let's
just give up. We can't find him.
Then my younger sister, no,we're Indians. We never give up.
Aaron Brien (06:37):
Yeah, you guys just
indigenized, hide and seek.
Salisha Old Bull (06:46):
That's how you
do it.
Shandin Pete (06:49):
That's the
classic. So there's a there's a
formula for indigenizing. Didyou know that? No, there's a
formula for it. You look at theclassic and popular literature
today, that's pretty easy. It'spretty easy. And I bet you can
(07:11):
name one way among the list ofthings on which one would
decolonize something? You ready?
Yeah, one thing go. First thingcomes your mind a feather. Now,
if you just said a feather 10years ago or 25 years ago, I'd
say, Yeah, you're right, but thefeather has gone. Is that out?
(07:34):
Feathers out, feathers out. Man,feathers out. That's too
regional. Too regional. We gottathink pan. Think pan,
Aaron Brien (07:47):
man, that's tough.
Oh no,
Shandin Pete (07:49):
it's not tough.
It's not tough at all. Turtle. Imean, I I didn't have that on
the list, but I thought, yeah, Ithink now, yeah, just mentioned
a turtle in some way, and you'reon your way to decolonizing and
more. Keep going.
Aaron Brien (08:09):
We could, um, you
replace all the P's with M's.
Shandin Pete (08:17):
All the P's with
M's. Yeah, I don't get that one.
Yeah, no, I'm gonna say no onthat patriot, repatriate. Oh,
okay, you're stuck on that man.
You get it? I don't know. No, Iknow it's in you to
Aaron Brien (08:35):
me the repatriate
and rematriate things funny to
me, because they're like, No,we're gonna rematriate. But it's
all still in English. This isall in English. So it's like,
wow,
Shandin Pete (08:43):
yeah, what are
Aaron Brien (08:45):
you going to
replace a letter? But it's, I
don't know.
Shandin Pete (08:48):
That's one we
that's one we need to do a
little background research onbecause it has the roots in
something not of this land. Ithink, I think, I think I don't
know.
Aaron Brien (09:02):
Usually when
somebody says that they're
talking about New Zealand,
Shandin Pete (09:05):
no, I think
actually it's like, it's like
Middle Earth. I was going to saynot Middle Earth, but, no, no,
it's somewhere like Asia orsomething. I don't know. I don't
know. I don't want to speakignorantly. What's
Salisha Old Bull (09:24):
the question
again? Oh,
Shandin Pete (09:26):
I'm trying to get
back this decolonization
formula. Oh, formula. Mentionthe turtle one morning. We can
move on to what he wanted totalk about. Man, I don't know.
Don't be dumb. Don't be lens.
Man, you gotta
Salisha Old Bull (09:42):
braid it, or
there. Smudge it.
Aaron Brien (09:47):
You gotta braid it,
Shandin Pete (09:48):
smudge it. Braid
it up, weave it down, smudge it.
Well, braid it. Then wait. Wouldyou braid and smudge or smudge
then braid?
Aaron Brien (09:57):
I'm not sure. Braid
didn't smudge, but. Always
Shandin Pete (10:00):
braid the
knowledge and then smudge that
knowledge down.
Aaron Brien (10:05):
You smudge the
knowledge off, smudge it off,
Shandin Pete (10:10):
smudge the
colonial stench.
Aaron Brien (10:15):
Knowledge. What I
prefer to weave knowledge.
Remember, we talked about we didtalk about this,
Shandin Pete (10:21):
yeah, I prefer to
weave. I mean, if you think
about it, weaving does takesignificantly more strands and
strength.
Aaron Brien (10:34):
I need to give a
knowledge basket for all to
place all my resilience in
Salisha Old Bull (10:42):
all your thick
skin,
Shandin Pete (10:44):
no, your calluses.
That's gross.
Aaron Brien (10:52):
Put my wisdom baby
inside this basket. Get that one
the river of knowledge. Anyway,what? Are we talking about?
Shandin Pete (11:02):
This can't be it.
This is not it. No, this is justmy my intro banter. We're
probably
Salisha Old Bull (11:09):
talking about
Thanksgiving
Aaron Brien (11:12):
Columbus Day.
Shandin Pete (11:14):
Thanksgiving
Columbus Day. Wait now, what's
this? Liberation Day stuff goingon. What is that? I don't why?
What are you talking about? Idon't know. I seen it in the
news. It's like a new USholiday, right? Liberation Day.
Aaron Brien (11:30):
Liberation Day. I
don't
Shandin Pete (11:32):
know. I don't want
to talk about it. So let's talk
about, let's talk about your,your most recent visit to
Aaron Brien (11:44):
well, just so, so
the listeners know, I made
it, Miranda and I made a triphope there to British Columbia,
DC, yep, our neighbors To thenorth. Mm, hmm. Visited old
Shannon and Silesia and we had,we had a lot of laughs,
Shandin Pete (12:11):
man, we had a
blast, a
Aaron Brien (12:14):
plethora. But I
guess you can explain why I was
invited up there. No,
Shandin Pete (12:21):
no, I don't want
to, all right, no, I'm just
kidding. I could mention a fewdetails. So, yeah, you know,
what else you want to do? Talkabout it. I was going to talk
about, yeah,
Aaron Brien (12:36):
well, then let's
give him some let's provide the
listener with some context. So
Shandin Pete (12:40):
this idea started
long ago, and it took shape at a
previous institution in which weall had formerly taught at, and
it was an attempt to provide avenue to discuss important
(13:03):
matters or matters ofimportance, specifically for
indigenous minded people. Idon't know if that describes it,
but what we're trying to do,we're just trying to generate
discussion about things thatmattered to us, and do it in a
(13:23):
public and open forum in acertain way in which people
could enjoin in that discussionand contribute in whatever
manner they want. So solution, Iwere fortunate enough to secure
small amount of money to throwon this series of events, and we
(13:47):
had a chance to invite Aaron upto be a guest for a couple
different events. It's kind offalling off. It's falling off.
Aaron Brien (14:02):
It, it, are you
playing a game on your phone?
Shandin Pete (14:12):
No, I mean, so we
just, we, yeah, we wanted you to
come up and we wanted to have aand in, in short, we wanted to
sort of have a session like wedo in our podcast here talk
about things that are live
Aaron Brien (14:27):
session, yes, live
session, yeah, where some
questions were presented to meand but it was more as a panel
with all three of us and yeah,
Shandin Pete (14:38):
it the way it
turned out. Yeah, it was more of
a panel, but we had some sometough questions that needed
answering or that neededdiscussion, and I think that was
that's what sort of kicked usoff with these tough questions.
(14:58):
I. And, yeah, I don't know. Iwant to what was your, what was
your take on it? You got to sortof see the kind of the the
workings of an indigenouspresentation in a large, large
institution, and the audiencethat typically populates these
(15:22):
kind of events.
Aaron Brien (15:25):
It was good. It was
good. Everybody was nice, yeah,
I mean, the questions were hard,yeah, questions were hard, a lot
harder than I had thought. Yeah.
They were written by you. Ithink so. They were pretty
(15:47):
complicated in nature, withlarge words. They were good. I
think, I think my sense ofhumor, in the way I kind of view
the world, and also the way Italk, maybe was a bit much for
(16:10):
the you for the Vancouver crowd,because I'm a uh, I can be
obnoxious, so, but I thinkoverall, it was good. It was a
(16:30):
neat experience. I mean, yeah,besides the talks, the food was
good, like, the food was reallygood. You guys hosted a pretty
badass, you know, made us feelwelcome. And so that part was
like, when you're traveling, youknow how that's always kind of a
thing where you're like, you'renever fully comfortable. You
know what I mean, when you go tosome place and you're kind of
(16:51):
like, yeah, so you guys did apretty good job of making me
feel comfortable and making usfeel comfortable. And then, so
that made the talking partrelatively easy, yeah, but day I
was pretty I mean, that was mysecond talk, plus a museum
visit. Yeah, you're pretty wipedout. And contrary to the
podcast, I I do get tired ofhearing myself talk. And so,
(17:16):
yeah, yeah, it was a bit, it wasexhausting, but it was good. I
had a good time. I think I someof the best conversations we
have door, like, if, if therewas a mic in the car, you know,
I still haven't figured out howyou how do you do that? Like,
(17:41):
how do you make that? How canyou replicate that kind of stuff
doing something like this, or,like, in a forum or something?
It's hard because, yeah, youknow,
Shandin Pete (17:55):
yeah, I just know
how. I don't know how to do
that. Um, I was, I was divinginto some interesting
scholarship because I had thisidea, and this kind of goes
along the line of what youyou're talking about right now,
and it's I said this thing in ameeting to try to get folks to
(18:20):
understand, like thecomplications of of talking to
people of a different, Iwouldn't say, totally different
worldview, but from a differentsort of cultural understanding.
And I said, you have to, youhave to understand the
formality, the formalities ofagreement, in order to, in order
(18:45):
to come to a mutualunderstanding of, or order to
engage properly with withpeople. And I started
investigating that this, thisthing, I just said in this
meeting to see if there's anyresearch on it, and in
particular, I started looking upthe formality of of what's the
(19:10):
word? The formality ofengagement is a is a a small
branch of scholarship where it'sparticularly in anthropology.
And this might be familiar todo. But so there's, you know how
anthropologists study things,you know, they're always looking
at. I don't know what. How wouldyou say they're always looking
(19:32):
like, trying to be objectiveobservers of things you know,
and look at them. Look at thingsfrom from a grand social
perspective, I suppose, but theysaid there's some things that
that help in understanding theformality or the informality of
(19:55):
engaging in a conversation, andone of those. Something that
we're all sort of familiar with,and that's the idea of code
switching. You know, where youhave to switch on and off, the
way you talk, the manner inwhich you talk, content in which
you talk, he's got he's gettinghis hat backwards and he's
rubbing his face. What's goingon?
Aaron Brien (20:19):
Man, deal with tail
you're talking about,
Shandin Pete (20:26):
okay, so let me,
let love. Let me just shove all
that aside and say this, the waywe talk on this podcast is has a
level of informality.
Aaron Brien (20:40):
Yeah, I would say
it's mostly informal, very
informal.
Shandin Pete (20:45):
And does this
manner of speaking in which we
speak, does that occur, or doesparts of that occur in a more
formal setting?
Aaron Brien (20:58):
The way, the way
we're talking, yeah,
Shandin Pete (21:00):
the way we're
talking now, let's say we we're
still among a like mindedindigenous folks, but the nature
of what we're doing is muchdifferent. Does the way that we
communicate now change?
Aaron Brien (21:17):
I think yeah, for
most people, it would be
different. I would say we'reprobably, I don't want to act
like an elitist, but that mightbe what makes us a little bit
different than most people. Myscholarship voice is not much
different than what people hearon the podcast, with the
(21:41):
exception of, like, a littleless smart ass and maybe I don't
cuss, but for the most part, howI talk, yeah, how I write, and,
and, um, yeah, for the mostpart, I mean, of course, there's
going to be a certain way you'regoing to speak.
Shandin Pete (21:57):
Yeah, you can
change. You're going to change
some word choices
Aaron Brien (22:02):
some I think you
laugh louder off the podcast. I
do you? Yeah, you should youlaugh?
Salisha Old Bull (22:10):
I mean, well,
good at your drums busted.
Aaron Brien (22:14):
Yeah, there's an
easy laugh. You're You're a big
laugh like you're comediansdream, you know what I mean? If
I was on stage having to throwzingers, and I know I'm going to
get Shaun Dean rolling, youknow,
loud on the podcast, but ohyeah, if I'm hearing you
(22:37):
correctly, I think, yes, yeah,most part you're right. You're
right. There's like a differentYeah, so are you getting that,
that why can't, or how come thatdoesn't, can't replicate itself?
Well,
Shandin Pete (22:52):
yeah, I'm trying
to tear apart a bit. So the
conversation that we might havedriving in a car down the road
is that even similar to whatwe're doing right now on on this
podcast, it seems a bitdifferent.
Salisha Old Bull (23:12):
Yeah, I feel
like it's different because,
because I was kind of thinkingabout that. And I think when
we're by yourself, we don't haveto censor the topic and the
things that we're talking about.
We don't have to, yeah. Youdon't have to worry about Yeah,
if what we're saying can be saidthat to Yeah, for everybody, you
(23:35):
know, yeah, we just have ageneral understanding of
Aaron Brien (23:41):
but I would say,
oh, go ahead. Sorry. I'm sorry.
Well, just
Salisha Old Bull (23:44):
when you're
talking with it's like when
you're talking with a friend,like you have a level of
confidence and some of thethings that you talk about, and
sometimes those are not, theycan be personal, but sometimes
even if they're not personal,it's like you kind of, you kind
of get that you're you guys aremaking me lose my train of
(24:10):
thought. You kind of, even ifit's not a personal thing, like
a TMI thing, yeah, you stillknow, like what you're talking
about is just for you guys.
Like, it's not for for it wasn'tmeant for to be, yeah, yeah,
Shandin Pete (24:32):
yeah. So we know,
we know people are going to be
listening to this, right? So wecan't go totally, totally open,
open mic on it. Even when we'rein a car, there's kids in the
car, we had to up a little, alittle level of, uh, censorship,
(24:55):
in a way. So What?
Aaron Brien (24:58):
What? I guess
everybody knows, like.
Shandin Pete (25:00):
All, oh, yeah,
yeah. So what we did in this,
Aaron Brien (25:04):
you try to calm her
down a bit, you know,
Shandin Pete (25:08):
you try to sober
him up a bit so he's a little
less feisty. No. So in this, um,in this session that we did,
which we called it a colloquium,which essentially was, uh, sort
of a panel, but I think it was aless formal. We had some
questions, and we we tried tospeak to each other, not to the
(25:31):
crowd, about these things thatwe were investigating. But
again, there, we knew we werebeing listened to. We knew there
was a audience. And I guess in ain that sort of way, we, we
(25:52):
would sort of cater to what theaudience, reactions or not
reactions were. And that's,that's sort of that in some way.
I don't know if that's alimitation, but it does. It does
something different to the waywe the way in the manner in
which we speak. So if the ideais then, well, how do we capture
(26:17):
sort of the the car rideconversation that we feel well,
we had some good conversationsjust sitting eating, eating some
dinner, sitting in the car,driving. We got into some deep
subject matter. But a lot ofthat was facilitated by a lot of
(26:39):
lot of comedy, things that wefound funny, things that happen,
so I don't know this like theformality of engaging with the
with the crowd. It challenges.
It creates a challenge tocapture that real, raw,
unedited. Conversation. I don'tknow. I don't know if it's
(27:07):
suitable. I don't know if it'ssuitable.
Aaron Brien (27:12):
I mean, we're not
talking about, like,
inappropriate things most of thetime. I feel like what we're
talking about might be so niche.
Shandin Pete (27:21):
Yeah, that's what
I mean, yeah, yeah. We're not
talking all talking dirty andtelling dirty jokes, yeah? But
Aaron Brien (27:28):
sometimes, and then
almost some of them
conversations, especially afterthis week, they were kind of
like therapy sessions in a way.
So everybody, you know, but Iguess what I talk about is not
necessarily the topics, but howthe flow happens, and kind of
how we don't necessarily have tolike, it's nice when you don't
have to explain things, yeah,you can just talk to somebody,
(27:53):
and it just kind of goes andit's funny, because the episodes
that I like and that I've heardpeople give feedback to me,
which it's not like it happensall the time, but, you know,
there have been people be like,Oh, I like this episode. Well,
actually, episodes where wedidn't give a lot of feedback, a
lot of background, we just kindof talked, yeah, those people
(28:16):
seem to like that with us, likeyou guys just visit. It's like
listening to two people visit,yeah? And I took it granted,
because what I realized isvisiting is like a skill, yeah?
And people don't have that likethat. That's like going away.
(28:36):
People don't have the ability tovisit, yeah, right, right. Like,
we don't have to have an agendaor a purpose or we could just
talk, you know, yeah, yeah,that's more of the the thing is,
like, it's probably not acultural trait people talk about
(28:59):
very much, but visiting isdefinitely like a cultural
thing. It's a, I mean, everyonevisits, but, yeah, Indian
country, it's like known peoplevisit. But, well,
Salisha Old Bull (29:15):
I think
there's probably cultural
context to it too, though,because I remember that time. I
remember what, what we're evertalking about in the past, but,
but just thinking, I just havelike little snippets, like
little air and burn snippets, Ican't remember, but anyway, you
(29:40):
said, you said, I think you weretalking in terms of crows like
you, you don't, you don't like,come see like, if you're going
to visit somebody, you don'tlike, hurry up and see them and
leave. And then the other thingyou said was, you. Not good to
(30:02):
show up to visit, but then makethe person feel sad, like upon
leaving, like making them feelbad or whatever because of the
topic of conversation.
Aaron Brien (30:15):
Yeah, I wouldn't
want to bring anybody down. You
should leave. Yeah, that was agood visit, you know, kind of my
grandma, my dad's debt, mom usedto talk like that. Try not to be
a burden, you know, like onpeople. So when you go to their
(30:35):
home, what you're going to visitwith them about, if you want to
just talk about, she never saidthis to me, but she's, I would
think if you want to talk aboutwhat just you want to talk
about, then you stay home, youknow. But you're going to
someone's home. They're drinkingcoffee together, or tea, or
(30:56):
whatever. It's a two way street.
You just try to visit, you know.
Now there are times where I'vegone to people's homes because I
had a specific reason to talk tothat person, like a particular,
some certain guidance I needed.
That's, that's kind ofdifferent, you know? That's
you're asking for something, youknow? So, yeah, just in general,
it's like conversationalist.
(31:18):
People who are conversationalistwould probably get what I'm
saying, like a conversation is,I mean, it really is a skill. I
think it's a skill,
Shandin Pete (31:30):
agreed, agreed,
Aaron Brien (31:32):
or fire. What are
you eating? Gold dish, ma'am,
Shandin Pete (31:37):
is it flavored? Or
is it just your standard,
original flavor, the originalma'am, no list, yeah, the
traditionalist, yeah, man, yes,that I did. That makes, makes it
somewhat difficult and so, sothe truth behind these questions
(32:04):
and the title of this thing wedid, which was, now, I'm gonna
read this title now, and I thinkit's kind of witty, but it
wasn't really for us, right? Sothis was, it was called
indigenous, indigenous wisdom,or intellectual tourism,
problematizing the use ofindigenous knowledge in
(32:28):
academia. I mean, that's like athat's, that's a that's an
academic title, but say itwasn't for us that. Well, at
least that was my thoughts.
Okay, this is, this is not forus. This is a title just to get
people to show up, to say, Okay,I want to know more about this.
I want to show up. So layeredin, there is something that is
(32:51):
of interest to us, but notspecifically that title. And
then in addition, the cat, thequestions were also not
necessarily for us, but we Iwanted to use them as a sort of
a starting point for us to havea conversation about these
important things. And we justhappened to let people kind of
(33:14):
choose which one they thoughtwas important to them. Then I
would try to launch into andguide a conversation about
things that were more importantto us and and I'm curious. I'm
curious, from your perspective,what was, what was the important
matter that was discussed, thatthat was, that was really
purposeful for our sort of ourunderstanding. I
Aaron Brien (33:44):
I think the
overall, it seemed like all the
questions, I think we only gotthrough four out of the five,
yeah, the theme seemed to belike, Well, no, I take that
back. There was a particularquestion that was asked that I
feel like I answered wrong.
Okay, and it was the sovereignthe first question you asked me
(34:09):
was the sovereignty question?
Shandin Pete (34:11):
Oh, yeah, that was
confusing. I was thoroughly
confused by that.
Aaron Brien (34:17):
I still don't
understand how you were.
Salisha Old Bull (34:20):
Wasn't it your
question, though, how would you
be completely
Shandin Pete (34:27):
I'm I don't know
the answer to these questions
is, is why? And so
Aaron Brien (34:33):
they weren't
presented in this order, though,
Salisha Old Bull (34:37):
the first one
was, wasn't it? Number four.
Aaron Brien (34:42):
No, it was three.
Let
Shandin Pete (34:45):
me pull up the,
let me pull up the or the
original. Read the question. Ohyeah, let me read this. Let me
read these questions. But let mepull up, pull them up in the
order in which
Aaron Brien (34:58):
pick two questions
we'll talk. About
Shandin Pete (35:00):
him again. Let's
do it so you want to do, give
Aaron Brien (35:03):
me a chance to do a
mulligan.
Shandin Pete (35:07):
Okay, let's get
back to the questions, and in
the order in which they werepresented. I thought they were
in the same order, though, that
Aaron Brien (35:16):
way people who were
there, they can listen to this
podcast and say, like, maybeAaron will elaborate on maybe,
maybe
Shandin Pete (35:24):
he's talking
crazy. Okay, here it is. Yeah,
here it is. So the firstquestion that was asked or that
that we dove into, was whenindigenous knowledge is
validated by academia. Does itgain legitimacy or lose
(35:46):
sovereignty? So
Aaron Brien (35:47):
what I should have
said, We got stuck on defining
sovereignty, yeah,
Shandin Pete (35:53):
because that was
my that was my question, yeah.
But I
Aaron Brien (35:57):
would tell you,
yeah, it depends on the intent
of the research to do with it.
Ma'am,
Shandin Pete (36:09):
well, yeah, I'm
gonna agree. But I mean, even if
the intent was, let's Okay,let's make up a scenario say the
intent was, was meaningful forany tribe.
Aaron Brien (36:30):
Meaningful is a
tough word, because I
Shandin Pete (36:32):
Okay, let's, let's
say that it helps, it helps
unravel a mystery or solve apressing problem in a community
of tribal people? Yeah, let'ssay that that knowledge that's
validated by academia is that,
Aaron Brien (36:53):
if it's driven, if
it's led and driven by that
tribe, I think it can be seen asa form of sovereignty,
Shandin Pete (37:02):
okay, okay, what?
Okay, in terms
Aaron Brien (37:06):
of legitimizing or
validating being validated by
academia, I think it's more atribe choosing to use academia
as a tool for something, yeah,which is very which I think is
different than than wanting tobe accepted by academia, wanting
to live in that circle, yeahtribe, under the tribe's
(37:30):
guidance, is using tools thatare that are in academics yeah
situation, or to win A law case,or to Yeah, to further a
pursuit, yeah, that can be seenas a form of sovereignty. Yeah,
yeah. We got hung up because yousaid, let's define sovereignty
(37:53):
first. Yeah. When if you removethe word sovereignty from the
question sovereignty can beconfusing, because it's both a
noun and then what's the actionword? Verb?
Shandin Pete (38:09):
Verb? Sure, let's
pretend it's a verb. I think
that's right, yeah, it's like anaction noun.
Aaron Brien (38:16):
I think it's a
noun. Okay, so then it gets
tricky, because then that's whenI said, sovereignty really is
the ability to make decisions,right, like an individual
ability to make decisions, yeah,and, but I don't believe people
(38:40):
have true sovereignty. I don'tthink it exists. I don't believe
it exists cuz we're bound bysomething that hampers our
decision making ability, okay,something that opens us it
limits our ability to makedecisions. Yeah, that's what I
was trying to say,
Shandin Pete (39:01):
Yeah, I got that.
And that's where I was gettingconfused, because, because then
I thought, well, what, what'swhat is making us, what is the
thing that's making us makedecisions? And you said, and you
said, like the rules or thetradition or the guidance by
social
Aaron Brien (39:26):
what's the word?
Well, we all know it's wrong tokill people, yeah, but we kill
somebody, yeah?
Shandin Pete (39:34):
So then, so
sovereignty. Sovereignty, then
is just, it seemed morecomplicated than just the the
will to make any Well, that's
Aaron Brien (39:42):
because I think
you're, you're applying tribes
and tribal governments to it,yeah, that's part of it. But
that's like, just that, the barebones solvency. It's just the
ability to make decisions. Ihave the ability to make the
decisions, and I can make thosedecisions, yeah, and I. Remember
he's taken away. That's a lossof sovereignty. And
Shandin Pete (40:03):
I remember in in
one episode, we talked about
sovereignty, and it's, it's theability to make both good and
bad decisions.
Aaron Brien (40:12):
Yeah, I think it
doesn't, it don't matter
positive. It's like, yeah, atribe has the right to make yes
within the boundaries, yeah, thefederal government. That's why
we're defined as limitedsovereignty, or domestic
dependent nation. Now peopleargue that because they're
arguing sovereignty as aphilosophy, yeah,
Shandin Pete (40:35):
yeah. That's where
I was. That's where I was at
because you
Aaron Brien (40:39):
can argue it as a
philosophy, but you got to be
very clear, yeah, sovereignty.
So I was philosophy isdifferent.
Shandin Pete (40:48):
So I was thinking,
was it still sovereignty? If
what you're doing is infringingon someone else's sovereignty?
And I don't think that mattersout.
Aaron Brien (41:02):
Yeah, you said
that, and you said that, and
yeah, it took us down a littlebit of a different
Shandin Pete (41:08):
Yeah. Sidebar,
yeah, and that's my original
Aaron Brien (41:11):
answer. Was like,
No, but that's not necessarily
the case, because if we look atsovereignty like a muscle, yeah,
like, challenge thing thathappens all the time, yeah,
yeah, what's happening in theMiddle East? You could look at
what's happening in Russia andthe UK, yeah.
Shandin Pete (41:29):
So this was so,
this is the so I get that, I get
that now, yeah. But who like, ifwe think of it as a noun, are
you even as a verb? I guess.
Where does it Where does it comefrom? Where does sovereignty
come from? That's,
Aaron Brien (41:46):
I think that's too
deep for me. Yeah.
Salisha Old Bull (41:49):
What do you
mean by where does it come from?
Because the definition isinherent. I don't think it's
tribal. Inherent. Inherent.
Remember that the word is, like,nobody gave it to Yeah. So why
are you asking where it camefrom? Well, okay, from nobody.
It came from nobody, yeah.
Shandin Pete (42:09):
Well, well, I
Well, I say that because you
hear this word often, or thisphrase, we're going to lose our
sovereignty.
Salisha Old Bull (42:19):
You know, I
think, like, that. Like, if you
put it together and you don'tbreak up the whole context of
the question, I can just barelywrap my mind around it, but it's
kind of like the unit. Like, ifyou think about the uniqueness
(42:40):
of a first nation or of a tribe?
Yeah, they're, they'reuniqueness. There's some, some
specific things that that defineor like, if you want to look at
it scientifically, I guess,because if you're looking at it
in a political context, youknow? Like, that's where that
(43:00):
word is mostly used, right? Yes,yeah, in there, but it's being
brought into academics becauseof the radicalism that's being
brought into academics. Yeah? Soif you think about, if you if
everybody's the same. So this isgoing back to termination, if
(43:23):
everybody's the same, there'slike no reason to defend, you
know, the reason for a tribe tohave, well, in the United
States, for a tribe to have atheir own system of government,
like, right? And so going, ifyou go back to that era of
termination, that's kind of thecontext and, like, the basis
(43:45):
that they sort of through, andhow they ended up terminating,
like that big old group oftribes that they did, you know?
Yeah. And so if you think about,if you think about it in that
way, part of, part of now movingforward are somehow when, when
you're looking at law or policyor whatever, some of those
(44:15):
things are based on Reports, andsome of those reports originate
from large institutions likeuniversities, yeah. And so if
the report or the research isnot there, then the research
they're using is old research,or it's something that's done by
(44:35):
somebody who doesn't understandthe cultural context, yeah, so I
can see, I can see how thatbeing brought into, into the
MOOCs. But at the same time, Ithink what was difficult about
that question in the moment was,well, one we. Are sitting in
(44:58):
Canada and trying to, trying tobe sensitive to the audience at
the same time, because you just,you had to be sensitive, yeah,
you know. And so you're like,Okay, you're trying to find the
best way to because when youthink about it, Aaron said it
(45:18):
before, is like you grow aresiliency to the way that
you're treated as you're growingup. If you grow up in a certain
environment,
Shandin Pete (45:29):
in your basket of
resiliency,
Salisha Old Bull (45:33):
yeah, and I
guess, in layman's terms, it's
you grow a thick skin, right?
And, yeah, sometimes it makesyou be crass or brash or
whatever. You know you don'teven, you don't even mean to be
that way. It's just, you're justso used to getting treated
negatively, even by your ownpeople. You're, you're, yeah,
treated negatively, likeconstantly, that you just grow
(45:54):
this weird. And so then when youget in a room that is not like
that, you have to be so careful,to be careful how you talk, and
you have to be careful how youpick your what are those
analogies? And yes, like,
Aaron Brien (46:18):
and I think, on top
of my upbringing and kind of
just all that stuff my job as apreservation officer, and I've
said this before on here, thatit's a, it's a argument driven
work, so you're constantly in astate of, Like, proving your
(46:39):
point or whatever. So I'velearned a bad habit of being
almost too straightforward. Sowhen I when I go back into like
academic settings, and peopledon't work that way, I can be
seen as like a rude person orbrash or like I don't like it
(47:03):
when people are like, Oh, youtell it like it is Aaron, or
like I've heard him say, I'mlike, well, that's just because
I'm saying. It doesn't meanthat's the way it is. I'm just
loud and obnoxious, you know?
But anyway, going back to thesovereignty thing. I The
question. I'm the blame on you,shandeen, that the question you
(47:29):
posed to me as a sidebar to theoverall question took us down a
rabbit hole. It did that Iwasn't ready for, and I don't
think the crowd was ready forbecause, I think, because I work
for tribal government and I andI exercise nation to nation
consultation, yeah, view of howsovereignty works as A tribal
(47:53):
government is different thanwhat somebody who's um, uh,
attending our teaching at aliberal University, might view
it, yeah, because I see, I see,I work directly with the
problems and the successes ofit, you know, yeah, yeah. I see,
(48:13):
I know, I know it's not a truesovereignty, and I know, yeah,
that how it's thrown around, theterms thrown around, and, yeah.
And, of course, if I come out onrecord and I say, we don't have
sovereignty, blah, blah, blah,then I'm like a political leper,
you know? Like, yeah. So I thinkif, if we were to revisit this
(48:40):
question about indigenousknowledge, is it validated by
academia? Does it gainlegitimacy? I think intent has a
lot to do with it, and who'sleading that that work, yeah,
Shandin Pete (48:55):
yeah. And the the
point I brought up about, about
losing sovereignty the way, themanner in which we're speaking
about it, is like this, I don'tknow, I don't know the word you
call it, but it's not, it's nota sovereignty that emanates from
a framework of of political orpolicy kind of things, right?
(49:23):
The sovereignty that people talkabout when they say, Oh, we're
going to lose our sovereigntythat seems related to like
treaty, language, policy betweengovernment to government
relations, those kind of things,but personal sovereignty or
cultural sovereignty, it's fardifferent thing. It seems like
you always have the ability tomake a choice, but that, again,
(49:45):
is also governed by someinternal social rules. That's
why I think you're saying youcan't have you can't have both
of them, because they're allsovereignty is governed by some.
Thing. So true sovereignty, thepurest version of sovereignty,
where you just do what you want,whenever you want, however you
(50:06):
want, that's governed by, atleast, if we're talking about
cultural sovereignty, bysomething so then this question,
then is, is kind of doesn't makesense, then, in that particular
way, because, I mean, what? Whatis there to lose if Harvard
says, oh, yeah, them, them.
Paiutes were right about thisplant that grows somewhere, and
(50:30):
it's medicinal in some way. Whatis it? What is what harm does
that do?
Salisha Old Bull (50:40):
Well, I think
the other thing too is and that
pick it on the Paiutes with thatterm, well, no, because that's
spot on, because that term, thenalso is going to that the phrase
that everybody uses lately, datasovereignty, yeah, oh, yeah. And
(51:01):
in terms of, I think it's likeintellectual property or
something like that, where, if,if somebody writes it, there's a
danger to to that situation. AndI think, yeah, the the idea is
(51:23):
that because if it's written inwithin an accredited university,
and the person's so this wassomething I was kind of getting
out with Aaron and and theperson's going to receive a
credential because of this. Itchanges the whatever is in that
(51:45):
paper. You know, there's,there's something about that,
because that's how, if you takeout the the topic of the of the
paper, like so, if the paper isabout indigenous research,
indigenous anything, you takethat all out and just make it a
paper about somebody else that'snot indigenous, or something
else that's not indigenous,that's how those things are
(52:10):
utilized, in terms of it'sthought or saw as something like
In terms of ownership, and youtake credit and a very
individualistic way of viewingthat research. And so, yeah,
(52:31):
yeah, that term, I think peopleare scared about that, because
it's even before that. What wasit before that? Everybody was
scared about those DNA tests,remember, like, 23andme or
something, there's like thosedifferent tests, but so it was
even kind of like a pre momentto the data sovereignty part.
(52:52):
So, yeah, so it's the unknown,you know, not knowing what's
going to happen to the theinformation. What is the what
right? What right of ownershipdoes the institution have of
that information after? It'safter you received a credential
based off of that? Yeah,
Shandin Pete (53:16):
yeah. Man, there's
a whole thing that I don't quite
get about the data sovereigntything, like I have some issues
with it, but I just need, I needto know more before I can jump
into speaking of it. What?
Aaron Brien (53:31):
Yeah, I don't know
nothing about data sovereignty.
But are we going to the nextquestion?
Shandin Pete (53:37):
Well, let's answer
this. Let's definitively answer
this in a very simple way,
Aaron Brien (53:44):
when they sit
around and trying to define
sovereignty, yeah, don't haveit.
Shandin Pete (53:52):
We don't have it
because we're trying to figure
it out.
Aaron Brien (53:55):
Why? Because I
think it's like, breathing,
right? Yeah, you don't sitaround and like, think of
oxygen, and you're not trying todefine what oxygen is. And yeah,
like, you, you don't reallyacknowledge your lungs and your
oxygen tether and danger, yeah,yeah. Then all of a sudden it's
a topic. It becomes a topic forsomebody, like, right oxygen
(54:19):
take around, or they can'tbreathe, like they're wheezing,
there's inhaling,
Shandin Pete (54:23):
yeah, yeah,
Aaron Brien (54:25):
people who don't
have those issues, that's not a
topic. Yeah? So if we're sittingaround and there's this constant
state of trying to definesovereignty, yeah, where people
that it's in question, right?
Yeah, and the fact that oursovereignty is in question,
whether it's individualsovereignty, political
(54:45):
sovereignty, data sovereignty,what all of this stuff, yeah,
the fact that we feel the needto define it typically means
that it's in day. J Right,right, and if I'm wrong, then
whatever you know, it's 11o'clock at night in Montana.
(55:07):
Best answers,
Shandin Pete (55:11):
you brought the
mood down. Way down.
Aaron Brien (55:16):
Talk about data
sovereignty.
Shandin Pete (55:17):
No, I'm not going
to talk about it. Now. I do not
want to talk about what I want.
What I do want to say is, theproblem with this question is it
assumes that, well, I meannumber one, it assumes we
understand and know whatindigenous knowledge
Aaron Brien (55:32):
is and sovereignty
and sovereignty. It's assuming
that we understand whatsovereignty is, and let me
Shandin Pete (55:39):
put another and on
there, and also that we all
agree on the terms of howsomething is validated. I mean,
academia is pretty clear howthings are academically
validated. Pretty god darn clearfor the most part.
Aaron Brien (55:56):
That's the problem
with academia is because right
now, academia is turning intoits own thing. Yeah, what people
are, developing research,developing topics of studies,
developing new work, yeah, allthat that can only live within
academia. Yeah, yeah, and,
Shandin Pete (56:15):
and, and one of
the problems that came or the
one of the things that came upand when we were discussing
this, I think is super importantfor our our our matters is that
we don't really have a great wayto validate this wide swath of
what in, what counts and whatdoesn't count as indigenous
knowledge, like what is we don'twe don't have that, and so it
(56:39):
lives in this space of academiathat also is governed by its own
rules and its own processes thatwe engage in, and sometimes
don't engage in, and it just, itjust seems too loose. It's too
loose so anybody, and we've seenthis, I've, we've, we've
(56:59):
witnessed the writing ofdissertations that are founded
in in indigenous knowledge,indigenous whatever. And there's
not one person on the committeethat can validate some of the
things that these people aresaying in in all honesty,
there's not people who aretraditionalist practitioners of
(57:22):
or producers of indigenousknowledge that can put a stamp
on and say that on that and say,Yeah, this is right. What you're
saying is correct. Yeah, wedon't have that.
Aaron Brien (57:33):
99.9% of the time.
People don't have that luxury,because there's also this
problem in academics whereindigenous people who hold those
positions still find itnecessary to fall within those
parameters, so they they playthe game, yeah, oh, yeah. And so
even if you do have a native onthere, which is pretty rare,
(57:54):
right, right, right oncommittee, whether it's a he or
she, it seems to not matter thatyeah, that often times those
people, although they're native,are still not people who can
look at your work and say, Yeah,you meet the academic criteria
for your thesis or dissertation.
(58:16):
Yeah. In terms of indigenousknowledge, it lacks in these
areas. Yeah. And then it's like,considered a no no to do that,
when, in fact, that's a commonthing if you mess up. Yeah. When
it comes to cultural knowledge,you checked people check yeah,
oh yeah, what you said wasincorrect. This is what you
(58:38):
should have said, and why youshould have that. You know,
yeah, they're quick to do that.
So, oh yeah, this is really whatall this stuff is supposed to be
for. It's supposed to test yourmethod, supposed to test your
knowledge. And it's like we'reafraid to do that when it comes
to to this indigenous research,or indigenous knowledge. So, on
the, on the on the in your, inyour, how you? On the poster, it
(59:02):
was you. It says problemproblematizing. How do you say
that?
Shandin Pete (59:09):
Problematizing the
use of indigenous knowledge in
academia? Yeah, right at thebottom there,
Aaron Brien (59:14):
one of the biggest
problems is that the way we use
indigenous knowledge inacademics is it's only for
academics. It can only livewithin that, and it's got its
own set of rules. It's It's itsown culture. So we're trying to
make this thing work forwhatever purpose. We don't, we
don't know now, becauseacademics are their own monster,
(59:38):
it legitimizes people, yeah,beliefs that aren't authorized,
yeah, and that's real and like,people don't want to talk about
it because it's offensive. Butthere's people who've made their
name in academics, Nativepeople, yeah, and non native
(59:59):
people. People that areconsidered experts in their
field, yeah, indigenous people,indigenous research, who've made
their name, not in thosecommunities, but rather just in
indigenous academics, yeah,
Shandin Pete (01:00:15):
yeah, yeah.
Aaron Brien (01:00:16):
I'll be the first
to admit that I don't think this
is isolated to any individualsor communities, because I don't
want to, like, just point peopleout. But I would even say that
it's like eras and growth. Yeah,that even you and I for Yeah, I
would like to think we're bothconnected, and say, least just
connected. But you go throughstages where you're trying to do
(01:00:39):
what you're supposed to do inacademics? Yeah, and you're and
you're forced to make a decisionto say, am I going to continue
to do this, or am I going tofigure it? Am I going to
generate some sovereignty and dothis on my own? But I do think
there was a time in my workwhere I I had to, like, do a lot
of self reflection and think,yeah, this doesn't feel right.
(01:01:03):
Yeah, yeah, and, and so I thinkit's totally within reason for a
community to, like, Shutsomebody down, oh, yeah, and,
but it seems like we're, we'renot allowing that.
Shandin Pete (01:01:20):
Yeah, it gets it
gets tricky in, in, in public
spaces, I guess. And academia,academia seems like a public
space kind of like, you know,like when you go to a powwow and
your drunk uncle shows up andeverybody just lets him dance
for a while. You know, they'renot going to harass him to let
(01:01:40):
him go. You know it's not, butif he gets starts getting out of
hand, tribal cop, take him outof there. You first, you try,
first you
Aaron Brien (01:01:50):
you get the one.
Yeah, bossy, and she's like, outdown to leave, yeah. Then he
starts crying. Well, I wanted tobring up something that, oh,
okay, okay, okay, and I don'twant you to get worried. I'm not
gonna see any names, but yousent me a video. You have a
particular group of people whoare respected, like really
(01:02:13):
respected singers. Yeah, I'm notgonna give context to this,
though, so I want peopletracking it down. Okay? These
people in the singing world arepretty respected individuals,
right? Sure, the video you sentme was of them singing right
along with the Rock Band, whichis fine, that's cool. I've even
(01:02:37):
done that, yeah, but they weresinging on the beat, yeah? So to
me, that's where it like, itstepped over the line a little
bit, yeah? It was like, yeah,it's not my style anymore to,
like sing along with a bluesband or whatever. And I admit, I
did that before. Like, I've donethat. I've tried, like, to do,
(01:02:58):
like, the fusion stuff, yeah?
And, but what I would never dois sacrifice the integrity of my
own singing, where I'm like, ifsomebody said, Well, we want you
to sing on the beat, because theThis music is in this timing and
it's on the beat. No, it's notgoing to happen, because that's
not the way you're supposed tosing, right? Yeah? So to me,
(01:03:21):
that's how research is, likeacademic research, it's like,
there is almost an allowancewith, with the performative part
of it and the hokiness and thecheesiness there's like,
sometimes you can't avoid it,right? Yeah? Because, like, in
all things are sacred, right? Sohow do you say that in a way
(01:03:46):
that's not cheesy sometimes?
Yeah,
Shandin Pete (01:03:48):
yeah, it seems to
be a threshold. Are my boogers
sacred? Yeah?
Aaron Brien (01:03:52):
Well, if they're
yours, then
Salisha Old Bull (01:03:56):
if they're
yours.
Aaron Brien (01:04:00):
But it seems like
yeah, I get to me Yeah. Every
topic has a threshold, yeah,where there's a point in which
you need those people to checkyou Yeah, and like, I don't want
to act like I'm pointing outcertain people. I'm just saying
in that setting, regardless ofwhat the setting is to me, I
(01:04:20):
know for a fact I would havesaid, No, I'm not going to sing
on the beat, because that'syeah, the incorrect waves, yeah.
In fact, as a singer, my wholesinging life, I've tried to
avoid that. It's like the thing.
It's like the Yeah, yeah. It'sthe singer's worst nightmare is
to, like, sing a crow hop andthen get on the beat, and then
(01:04:42):
you're stuck, and you're like,trying to get out
Shandin Pete (01:04:45):
the beat. Oh, so
awkward. So awkward. Or, like,
when the when the one guy leadswho's kind of not, you know,
it's kind of bit a bit green.
Everyone has to
Aaron Brien (01:04:55):
wait that one extra
beat. Yeah,
Shandin Pete (01:04:59):
he's, yeah.
Starts, he starts to lead on thebeat, or he does the downbeat on
the beat, on the wrong beat.
Yeah? It's just, ah, so hard, sohard to do. Yeah?
Aaron Brien (01:05:09):
So since I'm
triggered now, okay, that, to
me, is a form of validation,like there was a form of
validation they were looking forto be a part of the scene, a
part of the scene, or whateverit is, yeah, and, and what I'm
saying is, I think it's totallyokay to use academics. I think
it's totally okay to live inthat world, to even stay in that
(01:05:33):
world for a long time that Idon't think there's anything
wrong with it. The part whichyou reach that threshold, you
have to be very self aware andconfidence in the work you're
doing, to be willing to go pastthat threshold, or to be willing
to say, this is the this is mypoint. So that means that
everything I do from this point,this is I've now reached my
(01:05:56):
limit, in terms of when it itgoes from good work to like
you're just doing too much nowit's just too much. It's like
you can't be that way, like yougotta check yourself. So yeah,
yeah, I think that's a hardquestion. When you think about
it, it's like,
Shandin Pete (01:06:15):
it is really it?
What is point
Aaron Brien (01:06:17):
for every
everybody's different. So that's
why I still believe indigenousresearch is not a methodology. I
think it's a philosophy, andit's even like individual
philosophy, because I don'tthink it exists as a method yet.
Shandin Pete (01:06:32):
Yeah. I mean, for
sure, as a as as a methodology,
it seems to be there aren't someconstraints that make sense yet.
I mean, you can say, you know,you can say, well, the
methodology is, is part of it isthat all things are sacred. Wow,
that's too broad. I mean, that'sjust somewhat broad, you know,
(01:06:55):
or all things are related.
That's the methodological stanceof indigenous research, and
said, Well, that's good, but itdoesn't help me choose a method.
Aaron Brien (01:07:08):
No, it doesn't help
me choose a method. Great
sentiment. It's a goodsentiment, yeah, and it's a
competitive philosophy, or is itcompletely inaccurate? It's kind
of in the middle. It's not acompletely inaccurate statement.
No, a simplified form of acomplex belief system, yeah,
that you can't define using,like, not necessarily using
(01:07:31):
English words and yeah, levelsand, you know, so yeah.
Shandin Pete (01:07:36):
And I think some
people would, yeah, cool. Well,
I was
Aaron Brien (01:07:39):
just going to say
the moment in which you
sacrifice that too, where yousay, Well, I can say this in
English right here, everything'ssacred. Then I could just leave
it there, knowing that that'snot a complete accurate
statement. It's not completelyinaccurate. And the moment I
don't want to explain that, thenmaybe that's the moment of like.
(01:07:59):
That's kind of a form of sellingout. That's kind of a form of
like, yeah, man, represent theidea. Then, if I don't want to
explain it, yeah,
Shandin Pete (01:08:08):
yeah. It's a, it's
a, it seems exploitive. It's
almost like when it's almostlike, when people say, this is
exploitive. An elder told me. Anelder told me, without telling
you who the elder. I mean, theword elder in itself is
problematic. But you know, whenthey don't want to name the
(01:08:29):
source, it's it's problematic.
It's an exploits, it exploitspeople's ignorance.
Aaron Brien (01:08:36):
And then there's
even a difference in indigenous
knowledge. When it's like thisis what I learned from these
people. This is what my opinionof what I learned from these
people. That's different. Myopinion is different than what
was taught to me. So like, but Inoticed there's people in
(01:08:57):
indigenous research that willponder opinions off as that form
of indigenous knowledge, they'llsay, Oh, this is learn from
them, and this is what I made ofit. Well, that's not that even
limits those things. So you lookat like, you guys have coyote
stories. We have old man coyotestories. Those are like. They're
not limited to a like, aprotagonist and a moral. And
(01:09:23):
like, they function different,right? Yeah,
Shandin Pete (01:09:26):
yeah, it's not,
it's not a fable.
Aaron Brien (01:09:29):
So that's why they
can be heard all 1000 times, and
each time they can be useddifferent ways. So like, to me,
that's, that's like, some mepublishing this is what this old
man called story means. Thenit's like, well, then I made it
that thing now, when reallythat's not how their function
(01:09:50):
works, you know, yeah, yeah. AndI'm not saying you can't have
your opinion in indigenousresearch. I think it just has to
be clearly stated. This isn't athis is. Is what I've gathered
from the knowledge that wasgiven to me, which is what you
should be doing in any form ofresearch. Anyway. Should be, but
you should be. You shouldn't bemade a young researcher
(01:10:11):
shouldn't be making statementslike, this is what my tribe
believes in. Yeah, then wheredid you get that from? Yeah,
yeah. Variations exist in atribe. Did you learn it? Oh, my
maternal grandfather, whatever,who it was? Yeah, born to cite,
where you got it from? Yeah. Andwe can't shame people either
(01:10:34):
from learning things from, like,archival sources. And that's a
weird thing happening, whereit's almost like you're not
allowed to learn from books, oryou're not allowed to learn
that's crazy too, becausethat's, it's just where we're
at, right? You should
Shandin Pete (01:10:48):
learn from the
mountains. Yeah, go to the
mountains. That's whereknowledge is. Oh,
Aaron Brien (01:10:54):
I mean, yeah, yeah.
Shandin Pete (01:10:58):
Anyway, right,
like, Yeah, it's fun. It's
peaceful. Up there. You know,it's peaceful. Hang out.
Everyone should
Aaron Brien (01:11:03):
go to the
mountains, yeah? So I don't
know. So that was that onequestion. So, yeah, that was,
there was two that I kind ofstood on. Okay, let's look at it
again. And the other one was thewindow dress scene one. Oh,
yeah,
Shandin Pete (01:11:19):
okay, let's look
at it again, indigenous
knowledge or intellectual windowdressing. How do we keep
academia from just playingindigenous that was the second
one I think we chatted about. So
Aaron Brien (01:11:37):
I've changed. I
kind of changed my stance on
this. So this is what I said,what I thought, okay, words,
okay. That's the only wayindigenous knowledge can exist
within academia. Is windowdressing. That's the only way,
okay, cuz it can't fully everget it. Yeah,
Shandin Pete (01:11:57):
okay, yeah, yeah.
I get
Aaron Brien (01:11:58):
what you're saying.
Passer by knowledge all thetime, yeah. So what I think the
only way to combat that is toreduce and narrow the questions.
So what are we asking ofindigenous knowledge we gotta
get out of this. Like, what doesit mean to you to be indigenous?
Like, these really broad like,Yeah, huge swaths of like, this
(01:12:20):
is what it means. Like, yeah.
The only way to make thingsworthwhile, I think, is to start
being specific. You know, gottabe. You have to be because,
yeah, if we just acknowledge thefact that this window dressing
idea can't go away becauseacademic institutions in in
(01:12:45):
their overall concept for everystudent is window dressing.
They're only there for a shorttime. Yeah, so there's no way
that any academic program isgoing to fully understand any
indigenous knowledge system,because if I don't, and I feel
like I'm a practitioner of it,if I don't fully understand it,
(01:13:07):
there's no way that anyinstitution will no matter how
liberal they are. Yeah, and sothe other thing was, because of
that response, it almost seemslike their only avenue of
indigeneity is to be playing it,yeah, because I don't know how.
(01:13:28):
I don't know how you fullyencompass our beliefs and world
views, concepts, philosophies,if you fully understand it, and
then how does it manifest itselfin that academic setting? I
don't know how that wouldhappen. I just my brain, so I
sat on this, and I kind ofthought about it, and I'm like,
(01:13:50):
I answered that question wrong.
I don't even remember how Ianswered it, because it was the
last question I think we asked.
But I just don't know how it'spossible.
Shandin Pete (01:14:02):
Yeah, I think
you're right. And I wrestle with
the same, the same issue aswell, that you know, if you
take, if you take any, if youtry to take any, any pathway of
to knowledge, out of context,out of its context, it loses. It
gets lost. It gets lost becauseit
Aaron Brien (01:14:24):
has no other
option.
Shandin Pete (01:14:26):
Or, or, or it
doesn't, it doesn't become lost.
Or, I guess another way is if itdoesn't become lost, it becomes
static, becomes frozen, and it'snot really, it doesn't serve the
same purpose because it's beentaken out of the context in
which it was generated. Because,to me, knowledge, knowledge is a
(01:14:50):
it ought to be considered aliving thing, and it needs
continually, it needs to becontinually fed data to continue
to refine. And its purpose,yeah, oh yeah, yeah, that that's
this. It just seems to be makesense. So I think you're right.
I It's hard to take if what Ithink of as true indigenous
(01:15:14):
knowledge from what we see inour communities, that that can't
be put into academics. It justcan't it just, there's just no
way. So I think God's
Aaron Brien (01:15:23):
sense not enough.
No, we're asking these questionsof, like, that's why it's, if
you're going to do it, it'simportant to like,
Shandin Pete (01:15:32):
yeah and yeah. And
I think that's why there's been
attempts to try to attach a sortof, like a ceremonialism or a
tradition to academics, thatsort of mimics where some of
these come, where theseknowledges are produced. But it
(01:15:52):
just, it just doesn't that'sdangerous man, that that's
Aaron Brien (01:15:55):
dangerous a lot of
reasons. Yeah, but what it's
also, it's ignorant, because,yeah, the majority of native
people aren't practitioners.
Yeah. So then to use a analogy,or to use a method of
ceremonialism and research isn'tgoing to make sense to people
anyway. So now what you're doingis you're it's like a form of
(01:16:16):
money laundering, where you'relike, Yeah, watching dollars.
And now, you know, people aregetting that other four it's,
it's the clean daughter dollarsthey're getting, you know, where
everybody that's a practitioner.
We have to deal with all of it.
We have to deal with all of itand live amongst all of it. And
so now, when people go to theseacademic institutions, and they
(01:16:39):
get this weird, filtered versionof it. That's what they're
bringing back to theircommunities. But because of
their acquisition of theirdegrees and credentials, it
places them in positions ofauthority. So then they become
the, the spokesman of thosethings. Yeah, and so then now
that younger people come up andsee them as the official of that
(01:17:02):
thing, so then it's justcreating this diluted thing
that's happening. Yeah, becausewe're not constantly doing this
self checking thing, we're notbringing what we learned back to
those people saying, This iswhat I learned, and this is what
I think. What do you guys think?
And then they say, You're fullof shit. But then I take that,
(01:17:25):
and I say, alright, where am Ifull of shit at show me. Then
they show me. Then it's my jobto fix it, yeah. But because I
already defended my thesis, Ialready wrote my capstone paper,
there's no need for me to fixit. So then I'm like, why
already got what I needed? Yeah?
And there seems to be this thinghappening where, when you watch
people, when you're in it, whenyou're in academics, it's hard
(01:17:46):
to see it, because you're like,struggling, right? Because
school's hard, yeah? But nowI've been out long enough, and
I've seen people go through andcome out the other side, yeah,
and I've seen the waycommunities react to them? Oh
yes. And so then I'm like,that's almost like, where it
should be studied. It's like,well, what happens to them right
(01:18:07):
after, you know, and how's
Shandin Pete (01:18:13):
so, I don't know.
Aaron Brien (01:18:16):
I'm struggling
guys.
Shandin Pete (01:18:20):
No, there's,
there's a lot of truth in in
what you just said. It's, it'ssomething that, like I said, I
wrestle with often, and I try toguide the people I work with,
and the influence that I canimpart in academics to to to get
a higher resolution ofunderstanding of what, at least
(01:18:40):
for an indigenous scholars, whatwhat indigenous, not indigenous
knowledge is, but for the nonindigenous folks, for them to
understand, sort of theboundaries of how, how useful
and not useful it is, and not,not to to blur those boundaries.
But I mean that that one's sortof easy, like dealing with non
(01:19:01):
Indigenous people andunderstanding this, that's sort
of easy, because they're,they're arm lengths away, you
know, they could say, yeah,that's wrong. Don't do that. And
they just, they trust and,believe me, I guess, but,
Aaron Brien (01:19:11):
and they're always
going to be arm lengths away,
yeah, yeah.
Shandin Pete (01:19:15):
It's, it's the,
it's the internal struggle
that's, that's, it's verydelicate. You know, the
indigenous scholar is a delicatecreature, and and they are,
they're sensitive, yeah, and youcan't, you can't, you can't
treat them like a communitymember in your community.
Aaron Brien (01:19:34):
No one next way
it's presented to us there, it's
presented like this indigenousindigenous scholarship.
Salisha Old Bull (01:19:43):
It's a it's a
conflicting situation, because
that message of getting educatedis an old message, you know, and
it's not so on the one hand, ifyou have a community that
you're. Or you're going back toand in the back of their minds,
they know that they seen yougrow up, and they encouraged you
(01:20:07):
to go to way to school, and thenyou come back, it kind of throws
them off a little bit when youcame back, but you're coming
back to do a research because Idon't know if they were
necessarily intending on beingthe research subject after they
told you to go to school. Yeah,yeah. But then the I had a I had
(01:20:30):
a thought with something alongthe line of, like, your personal
values. Your personal valueshave a lot to do with that
confliction, you know, becauseyou, your personal values are
not aligning with, you know, theinstitution in itself and and
(01:20:52):
that's, that's already achallenge. But then there's a
point, like, when you, when youcome back and you, it changes
you. You know, you're not thesame. It changes you. And I
(01:21:13):
think there's like, there'ssomething mysterious about it
that I just, I just had it in mymind, but it's like you, you're
like this anomaly of a person.
It's like you're, you're all ofa sudden, you're all knowing,
but at the same time, nobody,nobody wants to, nobody wants
(01:21:34):
you to come around, but at thesame time they do, and then they
they need your material, becausethen all of a sudden, everybody
needs to do a lesson plan withyour new work, your new work as
a lesson plan. So it's likethis, give and take, and also,
yeah, there's more to it. I'llhave to remember what I was just
(01:22:00):
thinking just now, but youbecome like this weird creature
or something school. Yeah, it's
Shandin Pete (01:22:12):
like you've
dressed yourself up. You dressed
yourself up with the Oh, I
Salisha Old Bull (01:22:17):
remember. Oh
no, I remember what I was just
thinking. I don't think thisconcept, this concept, I think
so here's the weirdest idea, andit's kind of a rabbit hole. I
couldn't say every tribe, but Icould say there's a lot of
instances where this happens.
And we've had somebody, you guyshave had a guest before who had
(01:22:39):
this experience, but they're notindigenous. They're clearly not
indigenous, and clearly justenlightened by the idea of of
this new life experience. Andthey're really open minded.
Anyway, in most cases, this islike a white person, right? Who
(01:23:00):
comes, yeah, and they make allthese friends with all these and
your guys's word, all thesepractitioners, and they start
hanging out. And they get these,they get to have all these life
experiences such as taking asweat or something like that,
you know, well, get it, yeah, Idon't know what it is. Yeah, I
(01:23:24):
feel like somebody might have astory about this and could
explain this. There's probablysome weird coyote story that
explains the situation, but Idon't know why it is. But why is
it that person who then becomesfluent in the language, like, in
a year, like in one year, all ofa sudden they can just, like,
converse with, like, the oldestperson on the res, and they're
(01:23:46):
laughing and joking and in thelanguage, and you're like, What
the hell I've been taking theselanguages classes for all my
life, and I can't make onesentence. Anyways, anyways,
anyways, there's a word. There'sa word. And so my thinking is
going along the lines like, ifthere's a word for this, I feel
(01:24:07):
like this is a related word,because I remember one time,
just for the sake of, like, nottalking about people, I remember
hearing this older lady one timecall the the white person in the
group, sleuth, yeah, like it waslike, a a word for that person
(01:24:31):
that represented like, but theywere like, accepted into, like,
the social, the socialconstruct. Like it was like they
were, like, always a part of thesituation. And it kind of
reminds me of, like, how we havethis changed, this change. It's
almost like a thing that'sturned around, like, maybe
somebody who goes to school andcomes back and and they become
(01:24:56):
this different. Person, youknow, they become this part of
the social construct where, youknow, we have a lot of
expectation on that person. ButI think it gets real. The
conflict in it all is like ourrelatives think that, Oh, you're
going to go to school and you'regoing to come back and you're
(01:25:17):
going to help the tribe, but thethe reality is, I'm not sure if
that's really what they mean,like when they told you to go to
school, because when you comehome, you come home and there's
like, nowhere to work. They
Shandin Pete (01:25:32):
don't want you.
Like, oh, we thought we got ridof you. We should go work in
Missoula. Maybe we need to make
Salisha Old Bull (01:25:41):
a word. Maybe
we need to make a word for the
for for that type of person whojust gets kind of put on the
outskirts of everything. Butyeah, they're, yeah, everybody
needs their dissertation inorder to to carry on. I
Shandin Pete (01:25:58):
think it's a I
think it's a strange, it's just
like, it's a strange mix ofthings and but I think it comes
down to, well, at least in myopinion, how we validate people
and their expertise? You know,we've, we've sort of adopted
because of the the governancestructure that we have and the
need to have people who can,manage programs and those kind
(01:26:26):
of things. Do we need peoplewith skills that are not found
in indigenous communities or intribal communities, like you
don't, you don't go off and growup and learn, you know, grant
management that's just somethingyou don't you don't get, you
know, just grown up native, youdon't get that. So you got to
(01:26:47):
get some credentials to do thosekind of things. So there's,
there's a sort of expectationthat, okay, go off and let those
folks validate some, notsomething for you, that in the
form of a degree or diploma. Butin the meantime, if you're not,
if you're not doing the thing tomaintain yourself in a, in a in
(01:27:12):
a traditional, in a traditionalor customary sense among your
people, then you sort of loseyour you don't get validated.
You don't get validated to be aperson who can do that thing
that's outside of the tribe andthe thing continue to still do
that thing that's inside thetribe. So it's almost like you
(01:27:35):
need, and it, I don't knowthat's true anywhere you go with
in humanity, is you gotta, yougotta play, you gotta play a
game that that meets, meets twoneeds often. And if you're if
you're letting one slack, oryou've never had one, then it
becomes somewhat challenging.
But then that that gets reallymixed up, though, because if you
(01:27:55):
look at most people, a lot oftribes. I I'm not going to say
which tribe or where, but a lotof the top positions are filled
by people who don't have thatinternal cultural validation.
That's just a guess, but itseems to be remain true. People
who are at the top of theprogrammatic food chain are not
(01:28:15):
practitioners of tradition.
That's kind of a bold statement,and it's probably not true for
everybody. But
Aaron Brien (01:28:27):
just by the nature
say that even in in most
councils are not people who arepractitioners. Yeah. In fact,
when you do meet people andcouncils who are it's kind of a
rarity, yeah? Um, there seems tobe some weird little uptick, at
least in Montana, of people incouncil who are at least
advocates of culture, yeah,which is even, even different
(01:28:51):
than in the past, you know,yeah, knowledge enough to
advocate for Yeah, to at leastnot get in the way. Yeah, yeah,
because
Shandin Pete (01:28:59):
we've seen that.
We've seen a lot of that gettingin the way, but think they're
advocating, but just getting inthe way. Yeah,
Aaron Brien (01:29:06):
yeah.
Shandin Pete (01:29:08):
So I think that's
a huge thing. This the idea of
validating knowledge and whereor validating expertise is a
huge thing. What's it going tosay? Aaron, I
Aaron Brien (01:29:19):
was going to say
it's 1137
Shandin Pete (01:29:23):
let, let's
revisit, let's revisit these,
some of these remainingquestions in a, in a, in a
subsequent episode. And we'll,we'll try to break them down a
bit more. Yeah, I'm glad
Aaron Brien (01:29:33):
I got to. I wanted
to, so those two questions were
kind of bothering me. So youwanted to vent. I wanted to, I
wanted to do a have a do over,but I'm blaming the first one on
you, because you started talkingabout sovereignty, then I got
sidetracked, and yeah,
Shandin Pete (01:29:51):
I did it because I
was confused. And I'm this what
we talked about today clarifiesit a bit more for me. Now I was
trying to get to thatclarification. Then. So sorry,
man, sorry, I spoiled your trip.
Okay, sorry.
Yeah, cool, man, let's cut itoff there. Then and then, um,
(01:30:14):
let's talk about it some more.
Man, is I'm not going to talkabout these other questions or
not. I don't mind,
Aaron Brien (01:30:19):
I don't mind. We
don't have to. Yeah, we'll see
if we're in the mood. I
Shandin Pete (01:30:23):
don't know mood,
yeah, I want to. I want to. I
want to listen to the audio ofour, of our session, and see if
there's something in there thatwe might want to revisit also,
but, but let's just likeanything. Let's not make too
many plans for what's next.
Aaron Brien (01:30:41):
Okay, that sounded
sad, but I know
Shandin Pete (01:30:43):
we're not supposed
to leave something
Aaron Brien (01:30:52):
to look forward to.
Shandin Pete (01:30:54):
Okay, let me
revise that. Yeah, man, let's
talk about that. It's going tobe cool, dude, what a great
suggestion. You're a swell guy.
Okay, all right, that's enough.
I'm gonna stop this recording.
Then we're done. Yeah, yeah, you