#63 – Mountain Dew, Cigarettes, and Coffee: Practicing Reciprocity the Old Way - Guest: Terry Brockie - Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Shandin Pete (00:02):
I don't know about you, but

Aaron Brien (00:05):
trains going by this Aaron is

typically running behind in late,

trains going by.

But this time it was me, What time does the train
go by? It goes by right now,910, eight, 1008, is that? Is it
always 1008, or is it because weused to do that, the train used
to go to our through our Lee,and it was on time all the time.

(00:36):
So when you hear the train atnight, you know, Oh, it's
getting to be whatever, whatevertime better go home.

Well, now I don't know. I don't know, because
there's no more coal runningthrough here. So it used to be
every two hours there was atrain, a train. But now they're,
they're not, they're not there,

pool train.

Terry Brockie (01:01):
Yeah, I grew up like, two blocks away from a
train track too. You kind of getused to it,

yeah, yeah, you miss it when you don't hear it,
ain't it? Yeah, wake up atnight. The heck? Why is it so
quiet? Yeah, pretty good, man.

Pretty good. I don't have no headphones, no
fancy mic here,

no, he's but you sound great. You have the voice.
Okay, it's the voice. It's notthe mic. Have a voice. Aaron's
been struggling.

Yeah, face for radio, though you

face radio.
Aaron

always hit or miss on the on the internet.

He's got, he's got that border town, border town
internet

reservation, fiber.

I know it's we had some decent presidents or
leaders in the past that gotthat fiber line right in the
heart of the rez. Yeah, you justgot,
but them border towns, and Ikind of feel sorry for them.
They don't get nothing.

Well, it was a grant. If they had to apply for
the grant, you know,

I mean, what are you gonna do? It's a grant, man,
Grant. I'm gonna, I'm gonna playyou guys a song here. Um, where
the accident? Okay? I want youto listen to this. We had to

(02:56):
write a grant. I'm gonna, I hadto write a grant to get some
good fiber in our league,because where we are sucks, man,
it's bad.

Yeah, our Lee's got bad internet,

bad, I think, because it has to take that turn
there, you know, yeah, clouds,that's the turn. Yeah, it's that
inversion, you know, comes in,and I don't know what it does,
but, yeah, just it's not like,it's not like it used to be when

(03:31):
we had that, the dial up, I wasreliable. It was reliable. It
might been slow, but isreliable. You knew it'd be slow.
You didn't count on it beingfast, but you counted on it and
it came through. What was thatannoying? What was that noise?

(03:52):
You know? What was Where didthat come from? You know that
those little clicking andbeeping noises? What was that
was

a internet converter,

internet catalytic converter, yeah, I know what
that was. Noble

Cadillac converter.
I don't know what it was.
Apparently it wasn't funny,that's for sure.

Well, you cut out.
We couldn't hear what you said.
Your internet was a funny joke.
Maybe that's for the better.

They have saved it, actually,

yeah, let's not hear it. Okay? The song I ready.

(05:53):
Here it comes. Can hear that?

Yeah? Hey, I that's pretty cool. Love those
Ladies during that time.

Love them ladies.
E, pretty good. Eh, pretty good,eh, just like when you go down
to the gas bar there and you seesome gophers,
that's my, my lower Saskatchewanaccent. It's not very good. I'm
working on it.
Okay, well,

yeah, you both got it.

You both got it. I just learned that there's a I
learned that I've been sayingpasta wrong all my life,

really,

yeah, how do you say it,

pasta?

You say pasta, right? Aaron, Aaron

yo,

pasta,

pasta,

Yeah, apparently that's wrong. According
according to the Italians andCanadians. It's pasta. Pasta,
pasta.

(07:14):
Anyway, nah, yeah, I'm not

playing, you know, hey, pasta. I

uh, pasta, past the mic. Yep, past the pasta.
Yeah, that's pretty good. Soyeah, that was um, apparently
Hayes singers, Yep, yeah, Idon't know. You're dumb. Don't,

(07:46):
don't come at us like that.
What? Well, okay, I'm gonna giveyou a chance to shine. Go, what
froze up?

Okay, I have nothing to say.

All right, I didn't shut up. So, yeah, haze
singers, I imagine that'sprobably 70s, yeah, go

ahead. No, I was just saying there was a, there
was a lady came through andrecorded a whole bunch of tunes.
I got a lot of recordings ofthem singing, oh man, ring tail
around, you know, jiggy, justall kinds of stuff that sounds
like, yeah. I was thinking evenlike, like, like, I remember old

(08:44):
Bobby, you know, he not juststayed on astounded, but he, I
always remember him just damningat my when my grandma passed
away, over the grave, you know,just hanging it up there, you
know, oh, yeah, just that style,that of that era, yeah, yeah.
There's, like, my board foundsome stuff on the internet, and

(09:05):
it was like, from MSU, pow wow,from the 70s, I don't know if it
was on YouTube, and it was like,all that that was just kind of
the style, yeah?

No, no rolling.
There's no roll. Yeah. It's justah, like a air raid siren, and
it just goes right up there.
Man, it's awesome.

They kind of have one lead, and then then everyone
was, then they'd all come in,kind of one, like one would
lead, and then their secondlead, almost sometimes, yeah,
then they'd come in, yeah, todayin the contemporary world of
powwow, all

good. Though, all right, okay, yeah, gotta put
that disclaimer. But it's allgood. I like it,

though, but it's all good. It's all good, it's
all good. Like it. I like it,

yeah, so, um, we brought you here tonight to um,
talk about some things, man,that's been on our minds. Yeah,
we're, we're at episode 6063, Ithink. And we talked about a lot

(10:30):
of things in the last 63episodes,
and it's always good to hear onfresh perspective on the matters
that confuse us or confound us,but from what I hear, you and

(10:50):
Aaron have a somewhat of arelationship. Now, don't get me
wrong. Don't twist it. Don'ttwist the word relationship. I
want to put a disclaimer outthere right now.

Why? What's wrong

with me going with this? I should, let me, let me
disclaimer that workingrelationship. There we go.
Sometimes it's just one word,working relationship. You both
are involved in historicpreservation work in some

(11:38):
manner. Is that? What's that? Agood summary, or no, like
solidly, and that's what hedoes. What do you see?

I'm just kind of a nerd of our own culture, I
guess you might say of my tribalowning and just always, you
know, thinking about how, yeah,our language. You know, I teach
language at our tribal collegeand talk to public schools, and
so what creates philosophy andtalk and history and on and on.

(12:14):
We're always having a runningtext now and then.

Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, so, okay, I'm getting idea
here. SoAaron clearly does Tribal
Historic Preservation, which isa, I don't know that's like a
catch all. Wait, no, no, no,there's like an official duty
that you have, right? You'renot, you're okay? Yeah, what

my job is to advocate for cultural resources
on federal undertakings,officially, that's my official
job. But advocate for culturalokay, I'm sure you figured out
that, yeah, but I'm sure youfigured out that preservation
officers kind of become, like,this clearing house, kind of
like a, they become thisunofficial thing, yeah, yeah.

(13:11):
Like, a go, pass through even,like, yeah, yeah, okay. I mean,
because there's things I'mworking on right now, or that
I'm that I'm involved with thataren't directly under the
definition of historicpreservation, but they're
definitely cultural preservationefforts. You know, yeah, because

(13:32):
sometimes with our office, wehave the political pool that
sometimes culture needs to getpushed over the edge. So
sometimes, not all times,sometimes we can get in the way
too. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, I saywe, but I don't mean me, because
whatever, you're never in theway.

And that kind of i i see that same capacity with
his colleague here at FortBelknap as well. And really
like, I guess for me, I'm morekind of involved in, kind of the
traditional cultural aspects ofof multiple things. I mean, just
always and stuff like that. Soyeah, we've always had good

(14:15):
discussions when we cross pathsand visit and and text back and
forth now and then, yeah, it'sgood,

okay, I'm getting it. I think the efforts, the
efforts, the goals, are thesame. I got into this work
because of just love of cultureand wanting to be involved in
culture. So yeah, everything ismy hobby is culture. My My
practice is culture. And thennow you could say my profession

(14:46):
is culture, you know, so youcan't do preserve, historic
preservation work without lovingculture, you wouldn't be able to
do, I don't, I guess, I don'tknow how you could.

Yeah, have some level of Yeah. Practice. Sorry
to interrupt, but yeah, that'skind of how even I look at it,
even just being like a teacherat our tribal college, you know
of the language and you youcan't separate your culture from
your language. In my world,that's all I look at each you
down all kinds of paths, be itstories, historical stories,

(15:22):
world stories, it could be.
Could be songs. It could be. Itcould be philosophy. I mean,
just all kinds of stuff,ceremonial aspects, you know,
just all kinds of stuff. And,you know, I think even what I
see, even just with our own inour own preservation, is it's
not always just preservation,but it's also perpetuation as
well. To, you know, is to to,you know, kind of keep that

(15:45):
those, those those those ways,continuing on. And so I see that
with like, like Mike Black Wolfwas our typical officer, and,
you know, he's very involvedculturally, too, as well, kind
of Yeah, same way. So theydescribe it the same way as
Aaron did. Okay, I'm getting agood sense of what's going on

(16:08):
here now. What I'm just sendingon, come on, man,

this is when Sean Dean doesn't know what he's
going to talk about. He does. Iis.

I mean, that's true with almost every episode,
man, I come in, come incompletely cold, and I'm like,
let's go.

Yeah, 95% of our episodes have been like, we
we're just gonna talk and seewhat happens. You know,

that's us as Indian people, though. I mean,
how many? Yeah, very rarely eversee like a native person get up
with a big written form, youknow, and then have this big
speech out. It's like we're oralpeople, you know? And, yeah, I
think we carry that a lot ofways. And, yeah, just, you know,
ad lib as we go and throw humorin it, like we're doing now. You

(17:08):
know, do

you ever do, do you ever have that one friend
that you kind of know, and you,you want to talk to him about
something real deep, but youjust can't get them man. They
just, like, they blow you off.
You know, that person like, Ohhey. What about this? And
they're like, Oh yeah, yeah,that's cool. No, but what about,
you know, when, when they saythat, Oh yeah, yeah, that's

(17:33):
Yeah, that's cool.
Well, no, no, I'm wondering whatyou think about it, oh yeah. And
then they start talking aboutsomething, like, totally
unrelated, you know, like, thosepeople need a written form,
like, you got to put an agendain front of them. Here's what
I'm going to talk to you about,focus, Dude, get off your phone
and focus. You know, thatperson? Are you? That person?

(17:58):
Sometimes

my wife would argue that I'm on my phone all
the time, but,

yeah, yeah,

pretty darn addictive sometimes.

Oh, yeah. So you know the kind of work that I do,
I'm I'm really interested in.
Aaron can cut me off, because Italk about this thing a lot, and
I know Aaron's got somethingmaybe he has on his mind. But
you know, there's this, there'sthis dilemma that we face in the
work we do, whether it's TribalHistoric Preservation or the

(18:31):
work you do, you know, whereyou're in your in among your
people, trying to, you know,bring things back and revive
language and those kind ofthings, you know, I'm always
real curious about, like theroot or the core things that
guide what we do, the philosophyof how we do things. Now, I'm

(18:52):
not going to, I don't want tocompare how, how we in the
tribes in the Rocky Mountainsexpress what we do and how we do
it. I don't want to compare thatto like the traditional Greek
philosophy where, oh, theythere's always the Go To quote
about Aristotle or whatever orwhomever, and there's volumes of

(19:15):
books written about it. But Ifind it difficult sometimes to
communicate to non Indigenouspeople and and also our own
people. When we talk aboutphilosophy and say, Oh, it's
the, it's the philosophy of ofour of our people, and then
there's, there's a lack ofsubstance that goes after that.

(19:38):
You know, it's just like, I'mgoing to rely on this word, and
it's going to carry me throughwhatever I need to do. But
there's sort of a lack ofevidence or detail to to exactly
grab onto to understand somethings. So one of the things
I've been focusing on, and maybeyou can. Comment on this, this

(19:59):
idea that is quite the buzzwordin academic scholarship,
especially indigenous academicscholarship, but this idea of
reciprocity, and it gives itgets used quite often, but it's
rarely described in in detailthat I feel captures, really

(20:28):
what that word means in our inour communities. So I'm curious
what your take is on that, onthat particular word, like
reciprocity. I mean, even in theterm is I'm saying it in
English, and maybe that's sortof one of the first problems.
But what's your take on that? Ithink Aaron should tell me what,

(20:50):
whether, when he Googledreciprocity, Google it up for
us, Aaron,

I'm not a sometimes I can use some big
words, but other times I don't.
And I mean, when you think aboutthat, reciprocity is what a kind
of giving back and redoingthings, in a sense, is that,

yeah, yeah, reciprocal just means
reciprocal, like I got you,yeah, there's, there's, there's
direct reciprocity, generalreciprocity, negative
reciprocity, spiritualreciprocity,

yeah, Aaron's fleshing some out right now, and
You don't get that ever, yeah,rarely get what what he just
did. If I picked up an articlefrom a leading or emerging
indigenous scholar, they'regoing to use the word
reciprocity, but I think not inthe detail, even in just the few
things that Aaron said just now.

Yeah, I Yeah, well, I'll take a stab at it. I
guess

I like that. I like that demeanor, man. That's
like, that's the demeanor. I'mgonna just go for it. So let's,
let's give one example first,and then maybe you can help. So
Aaron said one thing, directreciprocity. So that's like,
equal chain, equal exchange ofthings. Like, I

mean, yeah, direct reciprocity turns into the
market system, yeah,

I change your tire today, you change my tire
tomorrow. No, that's generalreciprocity. Oh, what did I say?

If I change your tire, you're gonna pay me for
it. I know. What did I callthat? Though, you said, if I
change your child to tire today?

Oh, I said, direct, I'm in general, I'm
sorry, General, General

reciprocity, okay, and to kind

of set the baseline when you hear that,

yeah, I think his internet

neighboring you come to my branding and go to
your brand, yeah, no, go ahead.

When you hear that in the world of kind of
indigenous academia or whatever,it's like, you're looking at it
like, like, how are they usingit? Because I haven't read in
many papers about it. You knowwhat I mean. So when you can,
you give me an example of that,and then, then I might kind of
have a better understanding howto comment to that. Well, I

(23:29):
think, well, I I'm notnecessarily speaking of anything
in particular. I'm just thinkingabout like, what are the, what
are some of the ways in whichthings get exchanged with not an
expectation of getting thatexact thing back, or even that

(23:50):
thing in the same quantity or onthe same pathway, but like the
various pathways in which wecast something out in the world
and Have and and and know thatsomething's coming back. Yeah,
we can hear

you. Okay, so, for example, like, if I was to share
a story with somebody withTerry, and Terry's wants to use
that story in his life, like, inany way, the rule is, is you
gotta pay for it, like youeither feed me or you'll give me
a gift. Or, you know, you know,you always hear people talk
about giving tobacco, thingslike that. That's not direct

(24:25):
reciprocity because, or that'snot how you're that's, that's
reciprocity, right? It's theidea of pain for something, are
you? It's, it's a reciprocalrelationship that, sure you're
gaining something intangible,you're trading something
tangible. Now in native society,that would we, you could make

(24:48):
the argument that that's directreciprocity. In anthropology, I
don't think that would beconsidered direct reciprocity,
because you're not, you're not,it's, it's, it's an intangible.
Were a tangible, right? You're,yeah, you're exchanging. So the
way we the way it should bedefined, there's never been like

(25:08):
a native scholar to like, writeon reciprocity and just
reciprocity, like, what itmeans, how it's used in
communities, and give like, realexamples of it. So we just go
off with, like, theanthropological definitions,
what doesn't necessarily fit. Itdoesn't totally fit all the
time. You know, because, like,spiritual reciprocity would be
like fasting, right? You wouldgo and fast in the hopes to

(25:31):
receive a dream or somethinglike that, right? Like, but
you're, you're literallyexchanging your fast for
something. I mean, who knowswhat, right? And a lot of times,
of times those things arepretty, those are pretty
personal things. So you might,we might not ever really know
unless it's shared with us, but,but it's, it's a, it's a

(25:52):
physical payment for a spiritualcommodity. Well,

that kind of stuff is, I think, is, is is
very common in Indian culture. Imean, almost sometimes it's,
it's, it's, it's a norm. I mean,just like he talked about, I
mean, when you think about justanything, I mean even, like, a
good example would be like,Honey custom would be to go and

(26:18):
go seek out an elder and bringthem gifts, feed them, you know,
if you're going on somethinggreat endeavor. And the idea is,
is that maybe they've beengifted long life. See, there's
been in the concept, there'sreciprocity between the creator
and giving them law old age,right? Back in like, you might

(26:41):
say, the buffalo days, right?
But you can still carry thatpractice on today, because when
you think about the lifeexpectancies of Native Americans
compared to me, maybeCaucasians, or that's still very
prevalent, you know. I mean, Itry to teach my kids that, you
know, like, like, you know, toto, you know, teach them to put
stuff in their hands, you know.

(27:02):
You go, give it, you see, andstart that reciprocity, just
like he said. I mean, that wouldbe a good example of fasting, or
any kind of ceremony that you'llyou'll have that, you know. And
I think maybe, depending on,maybe the tribe. I'm just like,
good, a good example is goingaround the powwows and just

(27:24):
going to powwows and seeing howdifferent tribes do different,
different, you know, thingssome, some like, bring, you
know, a whole big tarp wrappedup in a pickup and backup in
their giveaway and, and again,it's that that, that form there
as well, where some might say,oh, we'll just have a dad
special, we'll give money away.
You know what? I mean, some are,are, you know, they're, they're,
they're not very wealthy in theWestern world, but yet, they're,

(27:47):
they're, they're rich in Indianway, you know, because they'll,
they'll, they'll then disperseout. So it is it, I think it is
prevalent in our Indian country.
I mean, it's, it's somethingthat is, is been practiced, I
think, for a long time. But Ithink when you lose your

(28:08):
culture, and you and yourculture starts to get watered
down, like, like an example.
This is an example of a elderwho, one time at a ceremony, he
said, you know, like, you know,like, like a person might have
to get doctored for thosepayments back in the day, you
know. And so like today, we goto IHS and and through our the
treaty obligations, we can goget seen. But when we go

(28:32):
traditional way, maybe, youknow, he'd, he'd always say, is
your life worth one cigarette?
You know, we I mean, but youknow, there's a lot to that,
yeah, yeah. So I mean that likethat that, you know, and when
you you have systems that, thatmay, you know, alter that from a

(28:55):
traditional aspect, maybe youdon't have that what, what it's
worth to you. I mean, you know,if I come and I go to a
ceremony, for example, and I'msick, you know, I'm going to
give and give and give and givebecause I want to live right?
Yeah, and but then you can'tfault someone. Maybe they don't
understand the customs, maybethe protocols that go with that,

(29:15):
that maybe, or even our familyaround us doesn't rally behind
us to do that even tocontribute, you know, from a
communal standpoint. So you seethose, those various factors,
where you'll see someone come inand, boy, they, they, they give,
give their best, you might say.
And yes, that's then that'seven, that's relevant to
whatever. We always hear that inour you do your best, you know,
yeah, well, that best might, intheir eyes, might be just this

(29:39):
much, and to them, it's theirbest. Where to another person,
it's real abacus, large. So Isee that, you know, varied. It's
we're not homogeneous. I alwaysuse that term all the time.
We're not homogeneous anymore.
As Indian people, you know.
Mean, I mean, really good. It'sa good word. That's a good word,

(30:01):
you know, that's a

good word. It's a good word. This guy had, I had
to define that word for him. Ididn't know what's back. You've
been reading it on a milk cartonfor all your life. Dude,
homogenized. Hey. Well, let me,let me walk back, because this
is an interesting one that thatI want to talk about. So this,

(30:28):
this form of reciprocity thatyou mentioned. So you, let's,
you, Terry, let's, let's say youhave a son. You do have a son,
and you want something. Andwe've talked about this, Aaron
and I in a couple episodes aboutthis, this wishing on things you
know. So you want your son tolive long, have a long life, so

(30:50):
you seek out someone who haslived a long life, and you feed
themand in hopes that that person's
attributes or qualities,transfers, transfers to your
son. Well, the pathway, thepathway is, is from you to the
person with the attribute, andthen the pathway goes from the

(31:15):
person, I think to this to yourson, but not immediately. Or we
don't know, right? We don'treally know. We don't know.
That's where sort of beliefcomes in. We say we believe,
because we've been accustomed todo this in this way for many,
many years, that this will cometrue. And I'm not sure that if

(31:39):
that really fits into thecategories of reciprocity as
defined by academia, that's andI'm not sure maybe it does, but
I'm just not a good student inthat the philosophy of
reciprocity yet. But this isinteresting one, because it's

(31:59):
not immediate. It's notimmediate, it's a long term
commitment, and it might becompounded with a continuation
of that practice, up until thatyour son reaches a certain age,
then you're just having faiththat all that work you put in
will slowly come back to that toyour son. Yeah, that sound about

(32:19):
accurate?

Yeah, no, that does. That's, I mean, I mean, I
just think of like, like, andthen it can be like, dual,
reciprocal, maybe because, like,I'll give you an example. Okay,
we're for, I went. I went and Iworked with an elder who was

(32:44):
actually a Centurion at thetime. She was the oldest lady in
Montana, spoke real good Indian.
I'd go spend time with her. Thata brand, a Kellogg grant, or
something, kind of a learner,apprentice speaker, learner type
of thing, yeah. And I wouldorder, and, you know, I was
really lucky in the sense that,you know, I'd leave, and either
she'd sing for me or she'd prayfor me. And so she would and

(33:07):
then on top of that, not onlydid she teach me about language,
she taught me about the culture,she taught me how to be. I mean,
you think about a person thatlived to be 111 years old. I
worked with her till she wasabout 106 and, I mean, this is
like four days a week, threedays a week. I'd be out at her

(33:29):
house for six or seven days.
Real sharp mine. And she taughtme to be like, kind of, I mean,
you think about all the thingsshe saw. I mean, invention of a
car. She's born 1897 at thetime, you know, car, microwave,
a phone, a cell phone, computer,TV, all, I mean, was married a
couple times, lost children. Imean, just Yeah, and taught me

(33:51):
to be a good, balanced person.
So in a sense, you know, Ialways tried to, from what just
my observation of her, I alwaystried to model that to my
children. And, I mean, so it waslike it came to me this way, and
then from her, and hopefully alittle bit of that I'm, I'm
passing it on to my children,you know. And so it could even

(34:15):
have a rippling effect, yeah, ina sense. And so, you know. And
those are just good customs thatthat she modeled to me every
day, you know, and yeah, and sothat, I think that that's a good
example of that, you know, like,of what I was talking about is
because, like,I don't know right, wrong or

(34:36):
different. But at that time, Iwas like living on the powwow
trail. Yeah, teach at thecollege one class, and I go out
there and work for $10 an hour,for 10 hours a week, and and for
about two years there, I wasalmost unbeatable on the power
trail. Not to be it would justadd Good luck. Good luck. He had
that. Yeah, old lady praying forme every, you know, every day,

(35:01):
and, you know, and trying to dosomething good, you know, yeah,
and no, and I think that justthat's kind of, in a way you
might talk about wishing andgood luck. That's reciprocal, in
a sense, yeah, that's the way Ilook at it.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah, there is.
There is a type of reciprocitythat captures somewhat of that,
that idea called Third Partyinfluence. So you know, you're,
you're, you're gettinginfluenced by someone, or you're
doing something that's going toinfluence someone else to to be

(35:39):
like them or have theirattributes in a certain way. So
that one is somewhat described.
The one that we chat about a lotis like the one I just
mentioned, except it's, well, Iguess it's somewhat the same,
right? Where, like you, youvisit somebody that's sort of
the give, right? You're visitingsomebody that's the give. You're

(36:02):
giving them your time, andthey'll give you their time. So
that's sort of equal, right?
You're given sort of this equal,reciprocal exchange that's
pretty direct, right? We spendan hour together, we'll eat
together. That's prettyreciprocal. But in that
exchange, they're they're doingsomething for you, they're

(36:24):
wishing upon you. And how theydo that, and where that goes.
That's sort of the the mystery,you know, the mystery of the of
the spiritual things that we do,and that that pathway can be
highly variable depending onthat person and how they achieve

(36:44):
or construct their their prayersto see it through, to get back
to you, that's when you don'tfind described often. But I
think those are the ones thatwhen indigenous folks are
writing about these things,those are the ones that seem to

(37:04):
be operating to to impart thethings that they're taught the
impart change that is is notdescribed. And can we describe
those? Or, or or should we?
Yeah, I'm not sure. Well, tellYeah, tell me your thoughts.

(37:28):
I'll

give you an example, like, like, like, I was
visiting with an elder and wastalking about protocols. And she
works, she's like, a culturaladvisor to the to a kind of a
mental health type of clienteleon a reservation, and, and, and,

(37:50):
like we, she wanted me topresent to, you know, her
clients about protocols, youknow, just in general, protocols
and So, like, like that scenarioyou put up there, we go visit
someone, you know, and in time,you know, time is like so
influences us today. Just theclock going around, you know, we

(38:13):
start here we finish, here. Gotto be here we work from this
hour to that hour and time just,and we're with Indians. You know
that, you know, the sun rises,it's in the middle. It's getting
low, it disappears. Anddescriptive, spatial world,
right? And so, like, like, eventhat scenario, like, I was

(38:34):
teaching them about, like, like,just the general use of tobacco,
in the sense of, like, puttingit down, you know? I mean, you
might not even you might justbring a meal to them. You maybe
you're kind of seeking out thatreciprocity for some aspect,
whatever it might be, you know,it could be spiritual, maybe a
song, there's singer and youwant to learn from an older

(38:54):
singer or something. Or maybeit's a woman wanting to learn
about woman things. And I wastelling him about, see, let's
visit, do just what you said,you know. And and you know, our
elders, they know, those peopleknow that you're coming for
something, you know, you bring ameal I want to feed you. And,
you know, and then just talkingabout, you know, like putting
tobacco down on the on on thetable in front of them and

(39:16):
saying, you know, I'm bringingthis tobacco, and offer you this
tobacco, instead of saying,Here, take this tobacco, you
know. And just like you know,because you don't know what kind
of commitment maybe that personhas, you might they might not
have the knowledge that you'respeaking you're seeking. And so
I was trying to explain to them,you know, about being patient
and visiting. Visit, you know,enjoy the company of one

(39:37):
another, just that. Yeah,reciprocity of being friends and
community and visiting, and theneventually, after you eat and
you visit, catch up on things,then they might even tell you,
so you know what, come here forsomeone, what you looking Oh, I
have to stop an underwritteneveryone kind of, and we've all
probably been in there. It'skind of this unwritten script

(39:58):
that, like, just like you said,I. Damian wants to point to, but
you can't really, yeah, youcan't really. There's a certain
moment that, okay, we've we'vevisited, we've ate, we drank
couple coffee and might havebeen 45 minutes, might have been
15 minutes and might have beentwo hours. And now you get down
to business, you know, what thewhat a person might be visiting.

(40:18):
So I was trying to explain tothem, to, you know, be patient,
you know, and don't let timeaffect things, yeah, because,
you know, just just, I mean,when most tribes, you know,
feeling something that's aboutas sacred as you can get, you
know. And, and so those are justexamples that I was trying to
explain and convey to them aboutthe uses of tobacco in a

(40:39):
traditional way and yeah,protocols, but it does. It leads
to that, just like Aaron talkedabout,

yeah, tobacco is not a key. Don't open the door.
It's just, it's the beginning,right? It's just, it's just the
thing that starts the wholething, yeah, that's pretty
funny. What do you want now,I've been down that road with
some individuals. What do youwant? You know, you you're
chatting them up. You don't wantto be rude and be direct, so,

(41:08):
yeah, how you doing? You know,they'll get something to eat,
eat and chat, and you're kind oflingering and well, what do you
want? Finally, come out with it.
Okay, I was wondering aboutthis, that or the other. Yeah,
that's, that's pretty familiar.

I had to that happened tonight. That happened
tonight here?

Oh, it did when, yeah,

before the podcast, yeah, Miranda cooked and stuff.
I get a phone call from my bestfriend grow grew up with me
today. I gotta talk to you. Hesaid, My son wants to talk to
you. So there I kind of knewsomething, you know, yeah. I
was, yeah, yeah, come up. Andthe food just got done. They

(41:52):
knocked on the door and theycame in. And I said, Well, you
guys will eat. You can eat withus then. So we sat down and we
ate. And you could tell his boywas nervous. He's a middle
schooler, oh, he had a fountainpop a Mountain Dew, you know,
because I like pop, you know, soand they, he handed me this
brand new fountain and a pack ofcigarettes. And then I said,

(42:14):
Well, I said, Well, hold on,let's eat first. We'll eat and
we'll visit. But he could tellhe was nervous, you know? He was
like, Oh my gosh. So we ate,then finished eating, then I
told him I saw Alright, goahead, talk to me now. And so we
did our thing. But you couldtell he was like, I think his,
his, his, he was maybepracticing in his mind. And kind

(42:36):
of what Terry was saying, andkind of what you're saying,
like, Yeah, I'm going to askthis, yeah, you know, I'm going
to ask this thing, but that'llcome, you know, let's eat
together, and yeah, and thenwe'll visit. And we'll kind of
go with that. And so he did. HeHe's graduating middle school,
but he doesn't have a name, sohe asked me to name him. So I'm

(42:59):
going to name him on Sunday, soat his little reception thing.
But you could tell he was he wasnervous. He was nervous to ask
me so but I commended his dad,because he made him talk to me.
He's old enough to talk to me.
He's old enough to ask he's oldenough to do it on his own. And
I, and I told him, he I evensaid, I've, I've seen it too

(43:21):
much, where even grown men,people who I think are grown
adults, they rely on theirparents still to do all that for
them. So I was like, Man, that'show you teach people. You have
them do it, you know. Anyway,what I'm getting at is just the
practice of reciprocity, theidea that he was going to ask me
something, the the cigaretteswere just kind of a way to

(43:45):
start, and I knew. So as soon asI seen him, I knew, then I knew,
Okay, we're going to talk aboutsomething. Yeah, serious here,
you know, yeah. So I'm kind ofput my mind in the right place.
You know, I don't smoke and butI love Mountain Dew. You know
what I mean?

Probably he probably better off smoking the
cigarettes than drinking thatMountain Dew. Partner,

we had this talk earlier today. It's my thing.
It's my one thing. You justleave me alone.

Alright, alright, get that blood sugar up, yeah,
yeah, yeah. There was, there's aolder gentleman here that I got
getting to know a bit, and Icaptured him one time, and he
knew it. He knew it because I, Iwas chatting him up about
certain things, and he wasdrinking some coffee, you know,
and he's getting to the end.
Now, I wasn't done interrogatinghim on what I wanted to know,

(44:45):
you know. So I see what youwant, some more coffee. And,
yeah, all right, so I get him acup of coffee, and he's drinking
that coffee, and it's getting tothe end, you know, of his
coffee. And I'm still not done.
I still wanted to talk to. Tobit more and I see you want? Do
you want some more coffee? Hesaid, No, I know what you're
doing.

Yeah, it's pretty funny stories. There's even
stories in the past of people,they would they were going to
offer them to pipe forsomething, you know, to ask for
something, and those people knewit, yeah? And they would avoid
them. They would avoid them tobe like, they're gonna, I know
what they're gonna ask me, andyou kind of purposely hide from

(45:31):
them, yeah, and all that youknow right off, yeah, yeah,
yeah. I think at least for thecrows, I think that's where the
offering of tobacco came from.
It's not like, it's not offeringof tobacco. They used to smoke
together. They were going toask, yeah, smoke, but yeah,
people don't smoke with theirpipes anymore. In their homes,

(45:53):
or, you know, somebody comes in,we'll smoke together. We'll talk
about it, you know.

So sometimes that's an example of, like,
even, I mean, there you go. Onething, it's like, the use of the
pipe that way, in a traditionalmanner, like, so, I mean, like,
look, look behind me, look atall these guys pipes as part of
their daily type of of being,and yet. And then you look at
time, and you compound time to,you know, and the formalities of

(46:26):
how we do it today, maybe, youknow, and it's, it's like, it's
like, like, oh, that's serious.
It's a pipe. But at the sametime, in a sense, it symbolizes
that, if you go back and youthink about it, you know, it's,
I was talking about tobacco theother day with that group and
talking about it even as, like,a like, a manner of like, I'll
put tobacco down. Maybe, maybe Isaid something to Aaron, I

(46:48):
offended him, and I might putthat tobacco down. Now we're
talking in the eyes of theCreator, and so we're going to
be civil, you know, and thosepathways, that's what I mean.
Like a lot of times when, whenwe were like, I when we're not,
you know, looking at that milkcarton and being homogenous, I,
you know, like, you know,there's different. There's

(47:09):
there's Vita rich, and there'sdairy gold, and there's fair
life and, and that's powder,yeah, there's tan. I Oh, there's
all kinds of milk. There'sformula,

lactose milk,

ultra pasteurized. Here we go. Yeah,
that stuff lasts forever. Butyeah, it's like things like
that. I mean, all those littleinfluences that have like over
over time. No pun intended havechanged. You know, a little bit
of it's still symbolism isthere, but yet, still, you know,
sometimes those time influencesthat, you know, yeah, or or

(47:51):
even, like, loss makes it moreserious. Oh, boy, he's bringing
out his pipe. You know, bringinga pipe, you know, that serious,
where it could be just asserious if I brought tobacco to
someone too,

yeah? You know, so, yeah, that's really
important one there. Go ahead,Aaron, what? Well, it's like

now it seems like coffee is kind of almost what
the pipe used to be, too. Like asocialist, so there's a social
element to smoking withsomebody, yeah? So now we just
drink coffee or tea or whatever,but if you're John, stiff arm,
you drink coffee

and smoke. Yeah, that's interesting. I guess. Is
this what we're well, I don'tknow, but I just what you're
leading up to. No, we're justgoing, man, okay, but I want to
talk about this because that's,that's an interesting thing,
this idea of time, like, thethings that you need to talk

(48:49):
about should be about as long asit takes, well, I'm guessing,
but how long as it takes tosmoke
that pipe? Yeah, I don't know ifthat's true or not. But,
like, the example I was givenabout the coffee, you know,
there's a cup of coffee we drinkthat. How many more cups of
coffee can I get out of thisperson to have this chat? You

(49:10):
know, like this, like the food.
How long does it take to eatthat food to get to what we need
to talk about, like, thesethings are like, like, we here
talking about, like, thisphilosophy is time and how we
get business done in this veryspecific context. You know, I
don't know what we thought thatis about that, but it was, it
was somewhat, or I had a thoughtabout that.

Well, it's kind of calm. It's kind of like
you're talking about, likeindigenous scholars writing
about these things. And so manyof these things that we're
discussing tonight are unwrittenrules, right? Yeah, I mean, in
that form of English, and it'slike, like, like, I was using
the example of working with thatelder. It was like 100 and we

(49:54):
had this, this kind of unwrittenwe knew when we were done, you
know, again, we knew that when.
Wouldn't, you know it didn'thave to. Never once said, Well,
I'm done, you know, that'senough for today. Never once did
she tell me that she was patientwith me. But over time, spend
time with someone you kind ofknow, like, All right, we've
went as far as we could. Andyeah, and even if you're trying

(50:15):
to, Oh, you want another cup ofcoffee and you're still after
it, you know, there's unwrittenwe still, we know that, oh, he's
had enough coffee for the day.
You know,

you made a good point, though. I don't, I don't
know if I interrupted you, but,um, young people that are
learning today, because they geteverything so fast, you know,
yeah, with like YouTube, Inoticed the way they grasp
knowledge that they really andI'm not trying to be like an old
head or anything, but I justnoticed, because we're always

(50:47):
learning, right? And I rememberwhen I was like coming up,
trying to learn, and it was theopposite. I always felt like
knowledgeable people and elderswhen I was coming up, they
weren't patient, right? But Inoticed it's like, almost
backwards now where, like, we'reover accommodating to young

(51:08):
people now, to where we even cancompromise the rules because,
but also they're not verypatient. They don't like, absorb
stuff they want. They want thenext thing, right now, right
now, right now. And they want,which, I don't know if that's
hunger, but it's also like theydon't let sit things, sit with
them for a little while. Like Ilearned the hard way, because

(51:31):
people are a lot harsher backthen they would scold you, you
know? Yeah, so I learned like tosit back and kind of chew on
things for a while. And thatthat's hard for me to do because
I'm hyper, I'm like, I went, I'mjust impatient, not naturally,
but I learned. I learned to,like, really relax and kind of
let things happen and learn tryto be efficient in something and

(51:55):
proficient and stuff before Imove on to the next thing. And
like, where I noticed now, likethere's a, I don't know how to
say this without soundingdisrespectful, but in young
learners, there can be a senseof like entitlement to
knowledge. There's like anentitlement to it, where, of

(52:18):
course, in theory, they have,they have a right to know their
own history and culture. But interms of ceremonial life, their
steps that have to happen. Andlike just because you're the
star student in the languageclass doesn't mean you get the
prime seating at a certainceremony or anything like you.

(52:41):
There's things that happen forwhoever, whatever beliefs that
is, but I think I've beenthinking about this because of
the education system whereeverybody is equal and everyone
gets to learn. I think it's in away, tainted how they learn
culture naturally, becausethey're learning culture in

(53:01):
classrooms now, because that'shappening here, that's happening
at flathead that's happening atBlackfeet, I'm sure it's
happening at Belknap that, yeah,we've created an artificial
environment of culturallearning, yeah, which because we
have to, right? That's just whatwe have to do. But that also
means that when it comes timefor the real deal, and look in

(53:23):
doing those things, that sameaccess can't happen in the same
way, not in the same not in thesame way, for sure. So maybe
Terry, because you teach thelanguage, and I know you're
heavily involved in what yourcommunity considers you a leader
of ceremonial things. So do you?
Do you find that that happeningin Belknap,

somewhat to some extent, yes, and like, I'll use
my as an example. I can rememberbeing like, 2830 years old, and
trying to sit, like, sit at ahigh, you know, at a sing, at a
sun dancing or something andbeing out of whack. And I can
remember this old elder saying,hey, hit it right, hit it right,

(54:10):
you know. And so then I thoughtI was doing it right. And then
he said, Hey, grab that drum.
Take That drum away from thatkid you talk about stew on. You
learn. There you go. You see, Iwas just trying to help out, but
at the same time, it was a good,a good, valuable lesson. You
know that that there's anexpectation that you keep a good

(54:30):
beat, or there's an expectation,you might say it that way, one
of the things that I see, likeat the the cultural, like at the
teaching cultural and theculture in the classroom. I want
to like, for example, we starteda thread at the college a two
year degree to help supportclass seven certified teachers,

(54:52):
right and and I could teach themabout culture in the classroom,
but when I'm always. Isconveying to them is you need to
be an active participant in yourculture. And sometimes people
think culture is ceremony, butcultures all kinds of things.
Cultures you know, cookingtraditional food. Cultures you

(55:13):
know, knowing your stories.
Cultures you know, understandinga giveaway. Cultures,
understanding, you know,etiquette at a powwow. Cultures,
understanding, you know, why,why? You know, you looking at
historical documents andwhatnot. I mean, understanding
what the symbolism is. Cultureis ceremony, but I always tell
them, you've got to be an activeparticipant. So for example,

(55:37):
like one of the examples that Iutilize was this one individual.
I knew that they had sponsored aparticular ceremony, and so my
teaching to them was okay, I'mthe student now, and I just
started drilling them aboutthat. Well, how come they have
this ceremony? What is thehistory behind this ceremony?
Why do you do this in thatceremony? Well, how come the men

(56:00):
sit here and the women. I mean,I just start throwing all these
arbitrary questions because Iwanted to make a point that you
in order to that's ourtraditional way, is to sit and
watch, and we learn throughobservation. I mean, that's
really the Indian way, when youthink about it, I'm gonna show
you, and then you're gonna doit. I'm gonna show you how to
make a bow. Now you go make thatbow. I remember making my first

(56:22):
dance bustle. The man had showedme how to make it. He made one
feather, and he said, Oh, thisis how you do the feather. He
showed me how to do the board.
He said, This is what you do, hesaid, and he made me do one side
and I did the other side on theboard. He showed me one feather,
and that was it. And he wasdone. Because in his world, it's
like, watch, you watch. I'mgoing to show you, I'm going to

(56:43):
show you. And you watch, andthen you do it. And it's even
like, like, and I even reiteratethat through our language,
because like niski or Niska andAani means to do, to do or make
by oneself. So the just the actof doing something or making
something, it relies on yourselfto do that. So it's reaffirmed.

(57:05):
And so when you think abouttoday in the in the world of
technology, especially in theworld that these youth, youth
are growing up in, it'severything. It's just like, it's
like taking a phone and justscrolling through everything you
know and you know, and rollingthrough it really fast. And
again, it's time. See, it goesright kind of back to that

(57:26):
concept of time and how itinfluences our people. And the
fact that that you know, to thatyoung you time is like whipping
through things instantaneously,where our traditional aspects of
so many things, time is like Ialways use the best word, best
definition I ever heard ofIndian time was by my dad, and
he used to go around and dotalks at schools. He said, What

(57:50):
is Indian time? How can youstart if no one's ready? And
that's kind of how it is, youknow, if it's just like what we
talked about, going to an elderand visiting, well, we're not
going to talk about until thatperson's ready to, you know,
reciprocate, you know back thatwhatever you're getting, the
same thing is the same thingthere, but are you sometimes

(58:12):
aren't, and where some of themare just growing up in it.
That's one of the things that Ireally like about there's a
segment in in my tribe here,both on you and Dakota, of young
guys about 20. You know youngladies too. They're they're
young, in their early 20s, youknow, late teens, and they're
just in it, man, they theybecause they've grown up in it,

(58:34):
and it's just really makes mefeel good, gives me hope,
because they know when to like,sit still and be patient. They
know how to sit still when theyknow. They know when to joke
around and laugh. But then theyalso know, like, like, I need to
sit still and be quiet becausesomeone's talking or, or they
know, oh, this, this, this, thisperson needs help. I'm just
going to sit down and do it, youknow, and just just get after it

(58:55):
and do it. So on one hand,though, but there's not just a
segment of our population hereat Fort bot, on other hand,
there's, there's some thatreally crave it, but our trauma,
you know, our dogma that wasimprinted on our people so much
it's the safest places to be faraway, you know. And so like,
even like my students in myclass, I I try to tell them, you

(59:18):
know, be active participants. Ieven tell them when there's
something going on, go, go, sitthere. It's easy. Watch what men
do. Watch what women do. Womencertain it's in a certain way.
They walk a certain place. Mendo the same thing. You go to any
kind of gathering, you know,it'd be like going to crow. And
you see all the men get outfront and they dance in an honor

(59:40):
song, and all the women are inthe back. You know what I mean?
I mean, if you watch from aneven another tribe, you can pick
up stuff, you know, by justbeing observant and and when
observing it to a kid is likegoing through a Facebook or a
Instagram or snap really quickTiktok, whatever it might you.
Be that concept of time isdifferent, and it has to be

(01:00:01):
learned, and it just has to belearned, and sometimes it has to
be learned the hard way, thatway. Hey, you're not ready to
drum yet, you know, just sitthere with that stick and sing
for a while, get your beat, andthen someday, and I'm still not
the best drummer, but I I'llstill give her heck.

Aaron Brien (01:00:24):
What do you think?
Do you think that that, that I,what I, what I'm getting at in
my big roundabout way, is, hasthat affected the way
reciprocity works? Then in yourcommunity? Yeah,

Terry Brockie (01:00:39):
yes, sometimes it does if they don't have good
teachings, that I would considerjust my own personal opinion, if
they don't have good teachings,then, then, then it, then it
does, you know. I mean, it'sjust like, you know, coming up
and saying, Here, here's sometobacco. I want you to do this,
you know, where it's like, tome, that's, that's, that's,
that's kind of a skewedteaching, you know, I just like,

(01:01:02):
you know, instantaneous rightnow, I need this, and you need
to do this for me. And there's,like, that entitlement, yes,
there can be some of that. Andso the I always look at that is
a teachable moment, because ifthey don't understand that
practice, that's when you needto back it up and say, Oh, hey,
hold up, you know, here's someprotocols this, so you know and

(01:01:23):
you know. And just lay it out tothem so they understand that. So
the next time they go now, I'velearned and you've modeled that
you see, and not, not really,necessarily been harsh to them
or even, but, but at least,model that practice, just like
what you praised your friend fordoing he basically modeled that,

(01:01:44):
you know, he modeled, you know,Hey, son, you're becoming a man
now you need to handle yourbusiness here. Here's what you
need to do. And he did it eventhough he was nervous, he was
going through, but he still didit and it was good, and you felt
good. And it's just like my dad.
He used to always, he neverwould. He when I if I was
around, he never would. He wouldnever, like we had to give money

(01:02:04):
away at a giveaway, orsomething, you know, to our
relative, or something, youknow, I was put in my hand and
pushed me out there, you knowwhat I mean. And so he taught me
generosity, that way, you see.
And so, like, you know thatthat's an example of that, you
know. And I try to instill thatin my children too, you know,

(01:02:24):
that they have to do it, youknow, and and just be patient.
That's where patience, I thinkthat's what Aaron I think that's
the the thing that like, like, Ithink that's kind of missing now
and then. Sometimes it's justunderstanding patience, just

patience. I could see that

and patience that i Hey, I'm a whatever in our
language, we say, well off whena family young knife, that's
what we call you young guys, I'msure that every tribe has a name
for those kind of young youknow, teenage men and women you
know, and teaching them thatpatience, you know, and so, and
then there, there is, there is,I agree, you know, Aaron, I
agree. There is, like, you gottakind of pay your dues, you might

(01:03:10):
say, You know what I mean. It'sjust like, like, like, I I think
about like, powwow dancing, youknow what I mean, and going to
powwows, and I mean travelingall over and I never had no
fortune. Five years, four orfive years, I didn't matter. I
just kept dancing because Iwanted to dance, you know? But
some people might look at it aslike, oh, the competition side

(01:03:33):
is like, Gee, I never win. Inever get this. You know what I
mean? And they didn't havepatience for it where that's not
even you're missing the entireboat in my book, you know, it's
like spreading, spreading goodmedicine out in a good way, you
know, just through dance and,you know, doing that, as opposed
to, you know, then that stufftakes care of itself, because
you're always just being a goodperson. You know, that's just an

(01:03:55):
example. I i wouldn't be analogythat I would use
in a long winded answer.

Terry, you're testing my patience right now.
That's for sure.

Shandin Pete (01:04:10):
We're going to take this tobacco back,

man, you know how hard it is. Oh, man. But you
said something earlier that wasinteresting. When you talked
about even reciprocity beinglike in the future, like
something even like, almostlike, multi generational things,
that was cool. What brings it upis, I mean, I don't know how

(01:04:38):
much detail you want to getinto, but our two tribes right
now are right in the middle ofalmost that very act, something
that was given to us a long timeago is now making its return
back to your people and and thenactually the story of us getting

(01:04:59):
it you. That was even said,remember this, they might want
it back, you know, later.

And even even, oh, I didn't mean to interrupt,
excuse me. No, I'm done. Goahead, yeah. Well, even, like,
you know about that, you know,in sitting there last week,
Aaron, and the comment that Ihad was our ancestors, when you
think of reciprocity, they hadgreat foresight. Mm, hmm, cuz,

(01:05:28):
you know, different tribes,that's what I mean, we today.
We're, you know, we're,sometimes we take that Western
culture influence, oh, you know,we battled these guys. These
guys are, you know, they're,they're our enemies, blah, blah,
blah. But there's, there's,there's times when you know we
were, I mean, most tribes arepeaceful people, you know what I
mean? And that doesn't alwaysget told, and it's like, okay,

(01:05:49):
well, we're, we're real pitiful,right now, these things are
important to us. Whoever thosepeople were, we better, you
know, maybe hand them off,because maybe it'll come back
again, and our people the timewill be right, you know? And I,
I just think, you know, like Iwas telling this young guy, he's
about 28 He's got little guy,you know, he talks into him all

(01:06:12):
the time. And I was telling himhow least I can say at Fort
Belknap, I feel like we'rereally in like a renaissance, in
a sense, and, and, and, and, Ithink that's all over Indian
country in a lot of ways,because I think the maybe our
contemporaries, we're a littlebit farther away from that
boarding school that historic iteach time it gets watered down.

(01:06:33):
And there's pockets of ourpeople that are saying, Hey,
we're, we're, I don't even likeusing the word sovereignty,
because that has a monarchy typeof thing to it, but we're taking
back our cultural pathways, andI think that's really, really
good because, you know, I alwayssay, like in my classes, you
know, you look in a mirror andyou know you're Indian, but what

(01:06:54):
does that mean to be Indian, orindigenous or Native American,
or first name, whatever we wantto call each other, you know,
what does it mean?

Whatever in my turtle Islanders, turtle, turtle
island.

But you know, really, you know, that's I try
to pose that to them, because Iwant them. Now we talk about
reciprocity, self reciprocity,you see, they mean to reflect on
because, I mean, that's whatwe're when we talk about
patience. It's like sitting outthere and being an Indian and
listening to creation. And youknow that everything, if we go

(01:07:29):
back to our belief systems,everything has power, everything
has knowledge. And do we can wesit there patient enough to
maybe seek out those that thatknowledge through observation,
you know, through, through,suffering, through, through, you
know, patience, all thosethings, you know, those are,
those are things that I feellike our people are starting to

(01:07:50):
regain, and, and, and it's justa small segment, but it's good,
because, just like that youngkid, he's, he's, he's a father,
and he's got about a four orfive year old kid, and he's in a
great era, to be able to, youknow, let his children just grow
up in those ways. And that's allthey know. You know, that's it's
just, it was just like I on oneside of my family, a large

(01:08:11):
percent of them are very devoutCatholics. And that's good.
Nothing wrong with that. That'sgood and, and, and. And my one
aunt asked me, this is when myboys were little, and they asked
me, well, so when you going toget them baptized? And I and I
kind of had this perplexed looksat her, and I said, I don't

(01:08:31):
know. I probably won't. And thenshe looked at me kind of
perplexed, like, how, you know,how are you how is your kid
going to get to heaven if youdon't accept Jesus Christ as
your Savior. And not to, I mean,and I've just told her, Well,
I'm going to teach them to beIndian. Our Indian ways are
ancient. I said, I'm gonna teachthem, and if they want to get
baptized, I'll be right thereand support them, you know what

(01:08:52):
I mean? And she was kind ofperplexed. And then, hmm, you
know. But it made herselfreflect even her on and, you
know, she was in her 70s, then,you know, and, and so, I mean,
that's what I mean, that thateven causes us to self reflect
on how we want things. Andthat's, that's good, that's

(01:09:12):
healthy to me. That's even if wehave that self reciprocity
within us. That's healthy in myworld, because I'm, where am I
going? Who am I? What am I goingto do? Where have I been? What
is my you know, gives youpurpose. In a sense, it's my
thoughts. Anyways, I've you'veheard my words and my words are

(01:09:32):
good.

Yeah, I knew it. I knew Terry was gonna bring it. I
knew Terry was gonna, he wasgonna bring it home. You know, I
just knew it. We've been tryingto get Terry on the podcast
since, like was basketballseason, and I couldn't wrangle
you in, because he talks a biggame about culture, but he's

(01:09:59):
just. Like the rest of theseIndians around here, basketball
first. Yeah,

put it all away during during basketball season.
Yeah,

long as my kids make it through the basketball
season, their life's complete,you know? Yeah,

because I think there's a whole segment of
Montana native people that knowyou as a ref. Yeah, yeah, you're
a ref. And then when I tellthem, like, Well, I never even
knew Terry the ref. I He was apretty accomplished dancer, and
then I, yeah, I actually wouldprobably know you more as a
practitioner of your culture,more now than even a pow wow

(01:10:48):
dancer. You know what I mean?
Because that's kind of how Isee, see, see you. But it's kind
of funny to me, like, how thatworks out, where there's all
these, like, there's Terry theref. Like, if I say, oh, you
know Terry Brockie, and they'relike, Oh, the ref, that's still,
that's weird to me.

Yeah, yeah, I guess, hey, I know you, you're
that ref, hey, I'm like, oh,

like, that's like, it's like, here's Terry. Terry's
worked his whole life topreserve and learn his language,
and he was known as a ref,

known for that one technical that he called on, the
one coach got, got put onFacebook and went viral, I don't
know. Yeah, native

to our 406 sports.
That's what people know youfrom. Yeah, I know I'm kind of
taking over here, Sean Dean, butI want to steer the conversation
away to something else a littlebit. Is that fine to ask Terry
something? Yeah?

What? Yeah.

Listeners can't see, but Sean Dean just gave me
this weird look.

I mean, a little while now, yeah, not wrap it up,
but no good, yeah, no, no. Gofor it. I just have some some
comments about what was said.

But there's always I'd like to hope, I'd like to
think that there's native peoplethat listen to our podcast. I
really want to believe that Iawesome. And what I want is is
for like, people to walk awaywith something, you know, like

(01:12:39):
listen by listening. And I don'twant to be cheesy or nothing,
and I've always tried to steeraway from that. But language is
like a really weird area for alot of people. For one, it's an
acknowledgement of not knowingsomething. So that's kind of
hard for people, and so I don'twant to, like, throw all your

(01:13:03):
business out there, but it's nota secret that you learned your
language later, right? Yeah. Andto me, I think that's one of the
most, like, the one of the mostamazing things I've ever met in
a person is when I when I firstmet you and John, John and and
realized you guys learned yourlanguage later. I don't think

(01:13:28):
people know your guys's story.
Because I think there's stillthis belief, like we devalue,
and I'm using the greater wepeople who aren't native
language speakers, right?
There's this kind of look, lookdown. So then you got all these
young people who are trying tolearn their language, but then

(01:13:48):
we don't have a society that's,in all honesty, is fully
accepting of them. And so I'minterested in knowing some of
those pitfalls that you've runinto, or maybe even like
strategies to like how you didwhat you did. Because, I mean, I
know people who've been tryingto learn their language their

(01:14:11):
whole life, and they just can'tdo it, you know. And even me,
like I struggle with like a crowlanguage. And you could argue
that the crow, Crow language hasthe most resource, right? Like
we were pretty fortunate people,but it just fascinates me,
because there wasn't very manyGros Ventre speakers when you

(01:14:34):
guys took on this big load. So Idon't know, you get what I'm
trying to ask

if I get you?
Yeah, well, I mean, I guess thefirst thing I want to say is,
I'm still learning, and I'llnever stop learning. There's,
there's, you know, I feel like Iknow this much. That's how I
feel. I mean, there's a gamut.
The language is constantlyevolving, everything like that.
But. For me, like, how I gotstarted, I guess is so I was

(01:15:06):
going to school at Haskell. And,you know, I always say, how, you
know, people say, Oh, Haskell,it's pretty crazy place at Party
School, blah, blah, blah, youknow. But, but for me, I, I
always say I went from the barsto the sweat lodge, you know? I
mean, I time I was in there, andthere were six of us, and

(01:15:28):
everyone spoke their language,and it got to me, and I knew how
to say, NIA wall, be nice. Whatdone on Grand grandma, give me
some money. You know, I feltreal pitiful that day. But I had
like, a epiphany, or whateveryou call it. And at the time,
all my grandmas were fluentspeakers, and my grandpa they

(01:15:50):
were fluent speakers. And thisis at a time, you know, you
know, there wasn't a lot ofspeakers, wasn't a lot of
speakers. And I was like, wow, Ihave this right in, right in my
hand, and I I just droppedeverything. I was, like, 22
credits, sort of a degree inecology, my bachelor's. And I

(01:16:14):
just went home, and it was justlike, like it was laid out, like
there was this thing in thecollege, they happen to have
this speaker learner, and I wasthe only one that really, there
was a couple of them that hungtough, but in that specific
program, I hung with it. And Iworked with my grandmothers,
couple of my grandmothers, andthey got elderly, and then then
my one grandmother took me tothat lady I was referring to,

(01:16:37):
and there was another man namedElmer main that I worked really
extensively for and and thenthey got really old, and then
the college asked me teach. Iwas like, holy, you want me to
teach, you know, but for me,that's what really when you're
when you're when you're teachingit and you're speaking it, you
know, seven or eight hours aday, and there's one part of

(01:17:00):
that phrase you want to say andyou can't say it. What bugs the
heck out of you? In so it's justfor me, I just want to learn it
intrinsically, just just, justmyself, because I saw that, you
know, that's who we are, and,and, and it's, it's, it's been

(01:17:21):
challenging. I mean, you know,it's like, I totally relate to
what you say. You know, it'slike a lot of people, you know,
because of the trauma, the dogmahere at Fort Belknap, like the
Catholic church really did anumber on our people, you know,
you know, my dad said, Oh, in1955 wasn't cool to sit and so
in those realms like that. Youknow, that's what I mean. It's

(01:17:42):
like, it's a different time now,and I always use, and this is my
own personal analogy, and it'sjust like, I, and I teach this
in my class, I say, you know,like in the Indian way, a rock,
a rock, is very, very holy. Backdeck, you know, back deck. It's
holy because it's seeneverything on the earth, right?

(01:18:05):
And you take something like arock, and they would nap at it,
right? And that to make a spearpoint or an arrow point, right?
And they nap at it, nap at it,nap at it, nap at it. They get
it right to the point where nowthey can put it on an arrow or a
spear, and they can now itprotects, now it clothes, now it

(01:18:27):
feeds. It does all those things.
But say, I'm right there at theend, and I hit it and I busted
it off, and now there's not apoint on the end. Now, do I just
throw that rock down, sit downon the prairie and say, Well, I
guess I'll just die.
No, we don't do that. We go lookfor another rock, get up, and we
start at it until and that's howour language is. That's all I

(01:18:50):
I'm always still napping at thelanguage to make my language
sharp, because that's what tome. That's our identity, that I
mean, you go to Japan, theyspeak Japanese. Go to France,
they speak French. You know, weshould be whatever tribe we're
at. We should be speaking ourlanguage. That's a gift from the
Creator. That's our language,what was gifted to us. And

(01:19:13):
that's that explains our wholeworld, our world as on and then,
or whatever tribe you might be,it explains it, and you can
involve in it. And that's thebeauty that just keeps me going.
It just keeps me going becausethere's, it's like, uh, like
Alice in Wonderland. You open adoor and there's a door and you
got a key and and I never gettired opening that door, because

(01:19:35):
there's always, it's just aYawkey, and it's knowledge that
comes every time it makes moreunit Danica a real full person.
That's a person that could saythat, you know, he's a full
person, you know. And so I'malways striving to be that way.
And, you know, it's like our owntrauma. Sometimes people,
they'll, they'll, they'll,sometimes, you know, oh, he

(01:19:57):
ain't saying it, right? Oh, he'snot, you know. This or that, or
who's he thinking? I mean, butthat's, that's our own trauma,
even from our people, just likeyou said, that are that's just
their own trauma. And if youunderstand that, that that's
okay, that's okay, you know,it's okay, but we're gonna keep
doing this. Because we're gonnakeep going. We have to. We have
no choice. Yeah, it's just kindof how I look at it anyway,

(01:20:21):
that's just my personal thoughtson language and why it's so
important. Explains everythingin our world. Everything
enforces our kinship, you know,how we are as relatives, teaches
us our our morals, our values,our history, songs, all I mean,
everything, places, sense ofplace.

(01:20:43):
It's really, really cool. It'scool. I'm seeing my dad said
1955 it wasn't cool to beIndian, yeah, well, in 2025 it's
cool. In my world, it's cool.
Podcast about it. Now

there's a lot of there's a lot of those folks who
think it's so cool that theythey pretend Ian's that what it
is? Yeah,

no, man, we look we look right Pat. We know what
genuine is and what isn't. Takea non native teacher and end in
school and see how, you see howquick they'll eat him up, or how
much they'll accept, how quickthey'll accept him by just being
a genuine person. Yeah, you'renot no, the you know,

yeah, that's for sure. Know what

I'm saying?
That's just Yeah.

They just don't last. They don't last. And that
even goes for our own people whoaren't genuine, they don't last
in that they just don't Yeah,yeah. And that's part of that
patience thing, because ifyou're a newcomer to certain
things, and if you just keepmoving forward, you just keep
doing them. People, they theytake to you after a while, and

(01:22:04):
then you, then it's, then you'rein, you know, but it's, it takes
time patience, man, if anyonegets anything, whether you're
learning language or ceremoniallife or kinship or anything, it
takes time and practice. Yougotta do it. You have to do it
the only way. I kept asking myuncle one time about the
Sundance. I kept asking, whatabout this? What about this?

(01:22:26):
What does that mean? Or whatdoes that mean? Finally, he just
kind of got sick of me, and hewas just like, you just gotta go
in.
Just Just go in. And he wasright. Everything i i learned
way more by just going in than

just do that's what I mean by being an active
participant. Aaron, that's whatI try to convey to like in the
students in the academicsetting, you know, when you're
teaching language, because youteach about culture and and
you're not a dichotomy, even inthe public schools, you know,
like, like, you know, do I talkabout ceremony, you know? I
mean, you know, because it'sseparation. Finally, I said, you

(01:23:02):
can't separate it. I justcouldn't teach it, you know. And
I teach about it, just ingeneral. I'm not going to go
into every I mean, but just, youknow, this is what this is, and
this is the basic things. Butyou got to be an active
participant, like you said,that's just what you got to do.
You got to just go in there andsit there even. And people
think, Oh, if I go in there, I'mgoing to have to do something.
Well, no, I mean it, just go inthere and sit and watch, you

(01:23:24):
know, yeah,

that's kind of like arrogance in a way. No, you you,
yeah, they're not gonna evenbother you. That's like, Oh, if
I go in there, they're gonnamake me do something. No,
actually, Aaron, they might noteven know you're there.

I We're really 1000 peels of onion as
Indian people today. You knowwhat? I mean? It's like, it's
very, very dynamic people due tothe, just all the instruments
placed upon us all the time.

You know? Yeah, that was, that's pretty good.
That's a pretty good analogywhen you're talking about the
rock, you know, especially thecontext in which you said it.
You know that rock as a as awitness of them, 1000s of years,
if you will. You know that'sgonna how you talk about that in

(01:24:24):
a particular way. But, um, no, I

mean, we probably should wrap it up. It's 1130
man, we've been going for anhour and a half hour and 15
minutes.

Reciprocity is about patience and time. Yeah,
not willing to put into work.
Aaron, maybe this podcast is notfor you.

I've been saying, maybe you're not ready.

You're not ready for the knowledge. No

bad Terry, because he does all the editing. Uh huh.
I don't do anything, dude, I I'mjust a show monkey. I just show
up here.

I do that little thing. Ball, yeah, that's all I
do.
He gets fired up.

Yeah? People come up to me. They're like, when's a
new episode going to come out?
When's the new episode? And I'mlike, I I'm like, I have no say
in that, because I'm not the onedoing the work. So I'm not gonna
tell Sean Dean to hurry up. Ifeel bad. I feel bad. That's
why, when I lately, I noticedthis when I when we when we're

(01:25:28):
talking, and we get about anhour, hour 10, hour 15, I start
thinking of his editing, and I'mlike, Man, I feel bad because
he's gonna have to edit. This isall for free, man, this is just
a hobby. Like, we're just doingthis because we like to, we like
to talk nonsense, and we like tojust banter, if you will.

We got some sponsors that help cover the
cost, though, that's not,

yeah, but you won't pay yourself. No, he won't even,
of course, I've even told him, Isaid, take some of that money
and, like, take your family outto eat or something, because
we're taking time from you, youknow.

Well, I quick comment. I just enjoy your guys'
kind of organic conversationsand topics, you know, always
going down the road. I'll listento it, you know. And, and, yeah,
really, we have something likethis in Indian country to, you
know, just kind of talkcontemporary bantering,

yeah, yeah. I like it, man. And I enjoy, I enjoy
putting in the time. I get to relisten and listen to the little
things that I missed when we'rechatting. So, yeah, I mean,
editing is laborist, but man, Iget to get into the details.
There's more here that I didn'tget, that didn't get to but I
know it's late, but this idea ofreciprocity and how it's hooked

(01:26:50):
into time is, I think it's areally important one that I've
been hearing as a theme and whatwe're talking about. And I want
to, want to think about thatsome more and come up with, with
maybe another, another variantof this conversation. Now we
always say this, we're going tohave you back, we're going to
have you back, going to have youback. And we want to, we want to

(01:27:12):
talk more about this, but I hopeI can.

I think we do need to have Terry back, because
actually, you're pretty easy onthe I could tell you must teach
language on Zoom. So, becausethere's Yeah, well, not everyone
can do this.

No, everyone's been on and then just just, I
mean, like in my former job, Imean, I worked from home for two
years, and so, like, everythingI did was through zoom for year
and a half, through COVID. Imean, yeah, and class, I mean,
in my former because I, I'vealways taught adjuncted on in a
coda college, you know, I'vealways, you know, and I teach

(01:27:49):
more classes now that have alittle bit more time, but, yeah,
it's just, it's just a platformthat we have to use today, and
that's cool, but it'sconnectivity too, as well. I
mean, you know, we're all overthe place right now. Yeah, yeah,

in real time, it's pretty easy. I know
conversationless

Easy. Easy is easy to I just threw a time at you
and you said, Yeah, let's do it.
It's like, all late. I didn't,let's do it. Yeah, no, easy,
man.

Well, I mean, I You honestly, you know, I don't
know how many times down theroad listen to this and it's
just like, oh, I I'd be makingmy own little comment. Well, I'm
listening to you guys in my ownlittle mind, you know, people,
because it was just stuff I likepeople that like to think about
things. You know, I'd rather,rather be thinking about things
than being stagnated and juststuck in a rut,

yeah, yeah. And I think we're, I mean, we're not
always right, and I hope peopledon't think of us like experts,
but more like, I mean, I thinkthat's the whole point. This
started out as a academicpodcast, but really, what it
what it comes down to, is likewe think about stuff too, and
just because we're native peopledoesn't mean we have all the
answers when it comes to how wedo our research or how we look

(01:29:04):
at our own people. And I think Iwant, I would want people to
know that, that we're not.
People would look at people likeus and say, Oh, those are the
the experts. But I mean, we hadto get here too, somehow we we
didn't fall out of the skyknowing stuff, you know what I
mean, like, yeah, we gottafigure it out. Yeah, I better do
some homework. That's fine. No,no, we're not talking Indian

(01:29:32):
time here, ah, jokes, yeah,well, I was, I was on time. I'm
just telling you guys I know Iwas late, yeah, it was me, okay.
God, why are you so mad all thetime?

Not everyone's ready,

yeah, I know, yeah. I like that. Yeah. Can't
start if not everybody's ready,yeah? All right, partner, we'll
see you in a week.

All right. Thank you, yep. All right. You.

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#63 – Mountain Dew, Cigarettes, and Coffee: Practicing Reciprocity the Old Way - Guest: Terry Brockie

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#63 – Mountain Dew, Cigarettes, and Coffee: Practicing Reciprocity the Old Way - Guest: Terry Brockie