April 9, 2024 • 50 mins
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Ever wondered why a virtual rollercoaster can leave your stomach in knots, despite never leaving your living room? Strap in and brace yourself as we unpack the enigma of VR-induced nausea with the expert insights of Nemanja Milosavljevic from Neurosync Labs. Our latest episode of Tricky Bits zooms in on the battle between our eyes and our inner ear when diving into the digital deep end, bringing to light the vestibular system's pivotal role in the physical disorientation we face in virtual landscapes.
Hold onto your headsets — this session isn't just about identifying problems; we're all about the solutions. Learn about how the groundbreaking C-Infinity device can sync your senses, offering an immersive experience with a solid grip on reality. By integrating force measurements with natural motion, this ergonomic innovation could be the key to unlocking a future of comfortable, nausea-free virtual exploration for a number of VR experiences.
Join us as we envision an electrifying era of VR, where the technology we discuss today might just redefine our gaming experiences tomorrow.
NeuroSync Labs: https://neurosyncvr.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, welcome back to Tricky Bits with Rob and
PJ.
We've done a lot of discussionsin the past about VR, xr, ar and
many times, like most folks, wehave focused a lot on some of
the problems, like the optics,like the ability to have
(00:23):
pass-through, the ability tohave high resolution.
One thing that we have notgotten into very deeply is this
disparity problem that existsbetween what my eyes see, what
my visual cortex sees, and whatthe rest of my body actually
feels, and what the rest of mybody actually feels.
(00:49):
It's all well and good to beable to have a first-person
shooter in VR and be running atfull speed, but what I'm
experiencing in my eyes and whatmy inner ear, my vestibular
system, might be experiencing isvery different, and what
happens is that this can lead toa sense of nausea, can lead to
a sense of mismatch in ourbodies.
(01:10):
Today we're going to be havinga discussion, a little bit of a
preamble, with Rob and myself onwhat is some of the fundamental
roots of this nausea problem,but then also having an
interview with someone from acompany named Neurosync to
(01:31):
discuss a little bit more indetail both this as a problem,
as nausea, as well as somesolutions they've been coming up
with.
They've been coming up with,rob.
This has been one of thoseareas that is often overlooked
by the general press and itactually is a very fundamental
(01:53):
problem in terms of longevity ofusage for any of these VR XR
headsets.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Absolutely, and I think a lot of it comes down to
a lot of the reviewers andreporters who use these things
don't use them for anysignificant amount of time.
They put them on the head, theysee the pre-prepared materials
that the vendors want them tosee and they take it off the
head.
When you start using thesedevices in ways that you want to
(02:26):
whether it's playing games,watching movies or whatever it
may be you start to see theseproblems a lot more and again.
We always talk about the specsof how high resolution of the
screen, of vision pro has 4kscreens for each eye, etc.
And what's the latency, what'sthe field of view, all graphics
(02:47):
related things.
We don't talk about the opticsof those graphics.
We don't talk about the, thefocus distance, the
accommodation, um, things likethat which can induce eye strain
and give headaches.
We don't talk about the fact,like it says, I'm running around
with a joystick I'm actuallysitting still, but my visuals
are seeing the scene fly past athigh speed.
(03:07):
Introduces movement,seasickness type, uh, nausea.
No one talks about these thingsand, like you said, it's, it's
the key to making these wearablefor a long period of time.
No one's going to wear thesethings for eight hours if it
makes them feel sick.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
It's fascinating because, in many ways, where the
press has been at has beenreally extending the narratives
around what had been done fortelevisions or game consoles,
which is focusing in on theresolution, focusing in on the
frames per second.
And now that we've entered anew paradigm, I think it's
taking some time to catch up tothe fact that this isn't just a
(03:50):
game console.
In your head it's a replicationof some form of reality, but
that form of reality very muchis dissonant to the reality we
actually experience it in.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yep, and we've only really solved the one problem.
We've solved the visual problem.
We've kind of done that badly,but we've done it enough to
convince us we're in this 3Dworld, and then the rest of your
body is going ah, I reject thatreality.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
So we hope you enjoy the second interview episode and
keep following up more with usin terms of where we're poking
around at the VR AR side ofthings.
All right, everyone, welcomeback to Tricky Bits with Rob and
(04:41):
PJ.
We are really excited.
Today we have our secondinterview episode and we have
with us Nemanja Milosevic, andI'm so sorry if I mispronounce
the name.
I would encourage you tocorrect me so we get it right.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Milosevic.
Milosevic is a controversialone.
Milosevic is a lot better formost people.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Thank you very much.
Thank you for the correction,and Nemanja is coming from a
company called Neurosync.
Especially with the release ofthe Apple Vision Pro XR, ar, vr
has become even more in thezeitgeist of technology, and one
of the interesting problemsthat exists is, you know,
(05:28):
despite whatever bits oftechnology we can put into these
headsets, we still end up withthis problem of a mismatch, that
it is virtual, it is not real,and so what I might be seeing
and what I might bephysiologically experiencing my
body is different, and so thereis going to be a cognitive
(05:51):
dissidence, a mismatch that insome cases can be annoying, in
other cases can lead to thingslike nausea.
So one of the things that we aregoing to tease apart in this
episode really is really tryingto dive deep into this problem
of VR, the VIMS problem, which Ithink, Nemanja, you're going to
(06:13):
take us through, what thatmeans, the physiological issues
that occur, and we want to divea bit deep into understanding
what this really looks like,maybe some of the various
approaches, and then howneurosync is actually trying to
fix this issue.
Rob, do you have any otherother preamble stuff that you
(06:35):
want to add into this one?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
no, it's it's really interesting because I come from
the graphic side of AR and VR.
We tend to think, oh, we do astereo image, we render left and
right eye, we project them intoyour face and it's all good,
that's it.
It looks like 3D, it works like3D.
But, myself included, a lot ofpeople are very sensitive to the
(07:00):
mismatch in the actual focusthat you're seeing versus the
fact that your eyes know thattvs are an inch in front of your
eyes and that mismatch in yourbrain really interferes with
some people, gives themheadaches.
Cause, not causes.
Uh, nausea.
I don't get nauseous.
I do get a cracking headacheafter about five minutes of
(07:22):
wearing any of these devices.
The one that I didn't get asmuch of a headache with was
magic leap, which, being true ar, additive light, obviously your
most of what you're seeing isthe real world and it's only a
few objects that are renderedhere and there which are virtual
and they tend to have a betteraccommodation than pixels
(07:47):
projected right in front of yourface.
So I think the back end of ARand VR, all this needs to be
solved before it's a trueconsumer device.
I mean, cell phones wouldn't beas popular as they were as they
are if people got sick everytime they looked at the screen.
So this is a problem that needsto be solved.
(08:07):
So I'm very interested to hearwhat you're doing.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah, before I start, let me ask you so, when you get
, not nausea, but when you getthe headache, is it all just
from wearing the headset or isit connected to something you do
with it?
Is it connected to virtuallocomotion, would you say, or is
it just from wearing it?
If you're just consuming normalmedia, would that be like a
movie in VR?
Would that still produce aheadache?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
for you.
Some of it is related to themovement and if I sat, I've not
actually watched a movie on theVision Pro.
I've watched little bits of itand most of the time I was
working on it it wasn't reallyworking.
So, on the finished product, Ihave not actually sat and
watched one of the high-end,high-definition movies, so I
don't know whether that wouldstill do it, because that would
(08:53):
just be sitting still wearing it.
A lot of it as well is becauseI worked on all of this.
On the technical side.
Most of what I was working onwasn't actually working.
So there's always bugs andthings and that doesn't help
with the headache problem.
But I do definitely get it ifI'm moving around, If I put an
(09:13):
Oculus on and try to play a gamewhere I'm definitely moving
around.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Even when using your body, so not just virtual even
when moving around.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yeah, and I've not done a huge amount of that, just
because with the full headseton, you tend to hit things and
crash into things and thingslike that, without having a
studio where you can actuallyreally experience it.
I think a lot of people haveprobably not experienced it in
its full form because ofphysical space restrictions yeah
, yeah, a lot of people don'tactually have enough space for
(09:44):
normal VR.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
I mean, they might have space to play Walkabout
Mini Golf, which is a just finegame I love Walkabout but they
won't be playing anything thathas them really jumping around
or waving their arms around.
A lot of people don't have thatkind of space or a safe
environment for doing so.
So that's a big issue that VRstill faces, in my opinion.
Yeah, your situation isinteresting, so I would like for
(10:08):
you to try our device,obviously to see how it goes for
you.
But our device it solves nauseafor people that have a specific
reason why they get sick, whichis the vestibular disconnect
when they move.
What they see does not matchwhat they feel.
And if you get a headache fromjust wearing a headset and not
really connected to the virtuallocomotion that you're
(10:30):
performing, if you get sick fromjust wearing it and moving
around with your own body, I'mnot sure that it's going to have
much of an effect on you, right, If that's the reason why you
get the sickness the emotionalsickness but in our case, the
people who are going to benefitmost from the nausea reduction
side are going to be the peoplewho struggle moving around using
(10:51):
the joysticks as an inputmethod.
So the joysticks, they're not aprecise way of moving around.
You don't get that muchprecision with a controller on a
stick and a lot of these gamessometimes they'll have you
influence the motion by movingyour arm around, Sometimes it's
by looking around.
So there's still differences invarious games or content in the
(11:14):
way that you actually movearound, Not to mention the speed
is almost never the same inthese games.
You always move around at adifferent pace, which might not
be the right pace for you, aswell as rotation.
For some people the segmentedrotation helps where you do the
segmented rotation, but for alot of people that's not
immersive.
That's not the way theyexperience the real world.
So they don't want toexperience the segmented
(11:35):
rotation of the game.
They don't want to teleport.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Could you go in and maybe let's double-click a
little bit on the vestibulardisconnect.
Because, it seems like it wouldbe useful to kind of say, hey,
we've got this visual field thatmight be moving hyper fast, but
obviously there's a disconnectthat's happening because my ears
aren't feeling that.
So can you dive a little bitinto that?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Yeah, so well.
Your brain, you know it has.
You have the motor cortex, youhave the vestibular cortex, the
vestibular organ in your body,and when you move around in real
life, like when I'm walkingaround right now on the street
here, I can see that I'm movingaround.
So my eyes definitely see andthe refresh rate is perfect.
So if the refresh rate waslower than 90, for most people
(12:17):
90 is good enough.
I'm speaking about VR.
So in real life it's infiniteand I'm feeling great In VR it
has to be at least 90 for mostpeople.
Some people will still needmore, but for most people, as it
has been 90.
So I actually feel and perceivewith my eyes what's going on
when you move around in avirtual environment in a video
game.
So when you use a stick to movethe joystick, you still you see
(12:40):
the movement, but you don'tfeel it.
Your body is not picking up onthe small things it's been
trained on over the years you'vebeen alive to pick up on and
it's not picking those up right.
There's a disconnect there.
There's a mismatch of what yousee and what you feel.
Your body has a lot of sensors.
It's not a simple thing toexplain.
It's like this part of yourbrain is the one that's
responsible for it.
It's your whole body.
(13:01):
It has receptors all over itand the neurons and everything
in your brain, they all worktogether to tell you that you're
actually moving around when youmove.
Otherwise, you feel sick, youthink you've eaten something
that's bad, gone bad probablyand your body wants to expel you
out.
For some people it's different.
Some people get a headache.
It's the same thing people geton a ship when they're in the
cabin, but it's just a differentreason.
(13:21):
But it's just a differentreason.
Over there you have a fixedpoint of reference.
Your whole room feels static.
You don't expect the room tomove, but the ship might be
doing this right.
So you also get a vestibulardisconnect where you're feeling
it but you're not seeing it.
So it can be the other wayaround and you get motion
sickness, sea sickness or, inour case here, the simulation
(13:41):
sickness, because of themismatch in your brain and what
your body is doing, when ourdevice really comes in and how
it works.
I mean first, if anyone haslistened to this and has not
seen the C-Infinity before, I'lltry to explain it slightly.
On the physical side, it's adevice that we call it sometimes
between us like the chair.
You know, did you set up thechair?
That's what we say because it'skind of like a chair.
(14:02):
You don't really sit in it.
So it's not a chair in thatsense.
It's more of a device where youlean into right, so it has a
seat, and that seat is designedin an ergonomic way, obviously,
so that it feels good when youlean back into it.
It has a platform on the bottomwhere your feet go, and it's a
pretty large platform so you canput your feet wherever it feels
comfortable for you.
But you usually put them there,and the platform is at a slight
(14:23):
angle so that when you leanback into the device, your body
is actually standing straight.
It feels like you're standingnormally on the ground.
It's a slight angle and youhave these armrests that come
out of the seat where your armsgo, and on the end of the
armrest you have two controllersthat are fixed on the armrest
where your hands go, and this isall ergonomically designed so
(14:44):
that it fits your body properly.
It could be adjusted for yourbody.
You can extend the armrest, youcan adjust the height, you can
do all sorts of things on thedevice to make it more
comfortable for you, andcompared to some other devices
devices you have a lot morefreedom to really have your body
any way you want.
If there's no one right way touse it, you can have your body
freely stand there the way youlike.
(15:05):
So it's it's also good.
So you are basically restingthere and your arms are on the
on these armrests and you canstay in that position for a long
time.
So when you lean back into it,put on the headset, you load the
game or the content router andthen you want to move forward.
What we have you do is your,your hands are at the end of
these umbrellas like this.
You pull on them so they don'tactually move anywhere.
(15:27):
I'm just doing this to showwhat I'm doing, but they don't
actually move.
They measure the force in theforce and pulling.
Okay, If I'm pulling veryslightly, I'm going to start
moving forward very slightly.
So it's very precise.
It's a lot more precise thanyou can ever get with a game pad
or a controller or whatever.
It measures literally from thesmallest, like grams, up to
(15:49):
kilos of force, so you can bevery, very.
It's a high resolution there,so you can be very precise.
You can really sneak veryslowly.
And the thing is, when you pullthe butter in your hands, your
somatosensory cortex actuallythere are receptors in the
tactile, there are tactilecorpuscles in your fingertips
and palms.
They send signals to thesomatosensory cortex in your
(16:09):
brain.
It processes there the feelingsof touch, the pressure,
anything but the moral cortex isposterior.
It's right next to thesomatosensory cortex and there's
a slight overlap of theelectrical signals being fired
from firing up in that part ofthe brain next to the moral
cortex.
When you use the device, you'llfeel a weird feeling the first
(16:30):
time you use it.
But after a while your brainlearns to associate this as
motion.
And when you pull, when youissue the forward command, the
back command does the same.
You just push into it.
So it's like you're pullingyourself closer to stuff or
you're pushing yourself awayfrom stuff.
So your brain already has likea point of reference.
When it pulls it feels likeyou're going to pull yourself
(16:50):
out.
But you start moving, yourbrain starts connecting that
with emotion sensation.
You feel this slight locomotionin your brain.
That's enough for a lot ofpeople to help them overcome the
nausea, because there's aslightly there's slightly less
of this mismatch, if that makessense.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
This is interesting in terms of how you're trying to
solve this problem.
It seems like, rob, what youwere saying is that with Magic
Leap, you know it was additivelight for the augmented items,
so you actually were seeing thereal world.
The real world was just there.
For most VR we don't have thishuge expanse where it would
(17:28):
match basically what's in thegame where I could just
literally just walk around.
I'm typically confined into asmaller area for VR to actually
interact with stuff and in thelimit I'm just standing and so
I'm just using the joysticks tomove around.
(17:49):
But that creates the highestlevel of contrast between what I
see visually and what my bodyis feeling.
See visually and what my bodyis feeling.
Is it fair to say whatNeuroSync is doing is?
You know you're not able toreplicate that kind of magic
leap, like see everything,because obviously it's not a
(18:10):
headset, but you're creating asubstitutive motion that is
within like the same vectorspace as the motion you want to
do, like either move forward,move back, do a rotation to in
some sense reduce the contrastbetween what the body is feeling
(18:30):
and what the eyes are seeing.
Is that a good way of puttingit Exactly?
That's?
Speaker 3 (18:34):
the best way to put it really.
The simplest way to put itreally is that ArtiWise does not
help everyone.
It will help people whoexperience motion sickness in VR
due to the locomotion.
That's where we come in and,like I say, it's a bell curve,
so some people are going to beon the end, where they don't get
sick from VR ever, which isgoing to be like me or they're
going to be on the other end,for example, our CTO.
(18:55):
He gets very sick from VR.
Most people are somewhere inthe middle who are going to be
maybe a discomfort for a slightbit, or they might not get sick
and then have a headache after awhile, like Robert, that sort
of thing.
Most people are somewhere inthe middle.
For those middle guys, which isthe most of the people, that's
where Synfity helps the most.
If you are very prone to motionsickness, this is a slight
(19:15):
sensation that your brain trains.
After playing for a bit more,you start to feel it more.
I don't know how to explainbetter than that, but for people
who are very prone to motionsickness, it might take them
longer.
I'm still pretty confident thateveryone can grasp it because
it's really not different fromanything else you've tried in VR
(19:36):
.
I'd also like to mention onemore thing to explain to anyone
who might be listening.
It might be hard to understandhow you're going to be playing
your games using this, becauseyou are used to using motion
track controllers in games.
So you might be wondering if Iwant to play Pavlov or Beat
Saber or whatever, how is thatgoing to work out?
So you're not going to beplaying games that specifically
only accept motion trackcontrollers.
(19:57):
So that's going to be gameslike Pavlov.
That's going to be games likeWalkabout Games, where you only
use the motion check controllers.
That's not going to be thegames you're going to be playing
.
So you might be now thinkingwhat are these games that don't
use the motion check controllers?
Are there any games like that?
Until recently, there wasn'tthat many of them, but after the
release of UEVR by PreyDog,there are now apparently 10,000
(20:20):
or whatever games.
I'm not sure.
I haven't tested them all.
So that's a really cool thing.
For people who don't get motionsickness, they like motion tech
controllers it's gonna beawesome.
But for a lot of the contentmost of the content it's not
gonna work with the motion techcontrollers.
So you're stuck without theoption of playing these games in
a good enough way.
In VR, you might use the Xbox360 gamepad, for example, but
(20:41):
it's not going to feel immersiveor good in any way right.
Or you could use the mouse andkeyboard, which is going to be
just even in reverse With ourdevice.
It's literally like a matchmade in heaven for these games.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Do you just expose your inputsas a USB device, or are you
pretending to be some sort ofsimulated controller so you can
directly?
Plug in, or do you have just aprivate SDK that people can
integrate?
What is the software interfaceside?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Yeah, so we don't have any software for it.
Literally it's just one USBcable you plug into your PC.
The computer will say Cinfinity, but it's an X input
device.
So any content that alreadyworks with the XInput, which is
pretty much all the content,they all work just great out of
the box.
You don't have to set upanything outside of the content,
outside of the options withinthe content.
Say, you're playing a game, youmight want to set up the input
(21:31):
router, but that's usuallywithin the options of the game.
Our control C Infinity isliterally just one USB cable
that you plug into your PC.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Just make it an X-input device.
That's a great way of doing it,which opens up another question
how does it work withPlayStation VR, because they
don't support X-input?
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Yes, so with PlayStation VR 2, so the new
PlayStation VR it won't workwith that one.
It does not work with it.
I tried it.
It doesn't work because the newPlayStation VR it uses the
motion track controllers.
They made them, they made thePlayStation make their own now,
so they work pretty well.
But they cut the support forthe gamepad, so that's too bad.
But if you're an owner of thePlayStation VR 1, it works with
(22:09):
a lot of the games Skyrim, Idon't know.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I suspect there's something that can be done there
, because I believe you can useUSB-D level software user mode
drivers on the PlayStation.
Yeah, that's probably a way tomake the next job work Very
early on, and so you canprobably write some sort of
library just to pretend.
The downside is because youexpose it as a game controller
(22:36):
prior to being an X-input device.
It's probably going to installits own driver and then fail
because it's not a PlayStationcontroller, but it is a
controller class.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Yeah, the way we got it to work with the first
PlayStation is the way we got itto work was using a Titan
adapter.
So the thing people I don'tknow.
I think people use those toattach third-party controllers.
I use it to connect theInfinity.
So I would connect thethird-party adapter to the
PlayStation on the USB port onthe front.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
So yeah, I think your product does solve that whole
locomotion side of VR, which is,like I said earlier, it's very
misunderstood or not consideredat all.
Everyone always just dives infor the graphics and the latency
and the hard specs, and I thinkthat's what affects me.
(23:24):
It's the latency and the opticsthat give me the headache.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
And probably the weight.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
But, like we said, this is an entirely barely
discussed side of AR and VR thatdoes need to get solved before
these can be worn for anysignificant period of time.
Like Apple's pushing the VisionPro to like, oh, wear it all
day, it's like you can't reallywear it all day if you're going
to get sick in the first fiveminutes.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Yeah, and the weight thing as well.
So at least Apple got thebattery out of the headset, so
it's on your side.
Some people don't like that, Idon't.
I personally don't really mindit that much, so it's okay, but
it's, it's a compromise.
I mean there's not going to beever, I think, a simple, single
solution for all of the problems.
It's a hard thing to imaginethat there might be a headset
(24:17):
one day that you put on, it'snot heavy, it's perfect latency,
perfect sharpness, picture,retinal level, whatever, and
where it doesn't get you sickwhen you virtually locomote.
I don't think that's going tobe an easy thing to solve with
one simple device.
Right, it has to be a system,it has to be a setup of things.
Your body is a system.
It has to be a setup of things.
(24:37):
Your body is a system.
Right, it's not just the brainin a in a jar, it's your body,
it's your, your spine, yourhands, fingers.
There's calculations going onin them before they enter the
brain not all in the brain,right?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
yeah, I agree, I think we're a long way from
solving all of these in oneheadset because on just on the
optic side there's the thetraditional focus accommodation
problem, and I think there's abig difference here between AR
and VR.
Like I said, ar most of whatyou're looking at is the real
world, I think the devices youwould wear all day, like if you
(25:09):
could just make a pair ofglasses that you could walk
around in.
99% of what you're seeing isreal motion based on you moving
about.
There's very little in yourfield of view that's actually
virtual.
It's just key pieces when, forvirtual reality, you have all of
the problems with the screen inyour face, you have all the
(25:31):
problems with accommodationbeing completely wrong and you
have the latency problemsproblems.
You have the field of viewproblems.
You have all of that on thetechnical side, which is what
all we ever talk about, but thewhole locomotion side of your
head's covered.
But I'm moving in a way that'sdifferent to what my optics are
telling me is something that weI don't think are going to solve
(25:55):
in any single headset in areasonably close time frame.
Yes, I, I, I agree, I don'tthink are going to solve in any
single headset in a reasonablyclose timeframe.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yes, I agree, I don't think it's going to happen.
Honestly, you'd have to workout something like a fantastical
, magical solution that tricksyour brain, like, let's say, I
don't know, neuralink from ElonMusk's Neuralink.
I don't think people are goingto be installing that to play
their games.
But who am I to say that people, 100 years from now, might be
(26:21):
doing?
I personally would not do itjust to play games in a better
way.
But honestly, other than that,other than an invasive method in
your brain and your full body,I'm not sure how to do it in a
device that was so, short ofbrain surgery, I think what you
guys are saying is that there'svery little that we know we can
do on the headset right now.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
So, effectively, like the headsets, are the headsets
without something you know againgoing invasive?
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Yes, yes, the virtual locomotive.
You start moving, but your bodydoes not feel it, unless you
make it somehow feel it With theheadset.
That's not going to happen.
It's only going to show youthat you're moving, so what?
Speaker 1 (27:02):
I'm really curious there.
Obviously, this, these problems, have been around for a while,
for as long as VR has beenaround.
I mean, I remember kind of theearly days of shooting at the
pterodactyl in that, thenineties VR standup unit.
What are the other approachesthat have been attempted to
combat this nausea problem andmaybe contrast that with hey?
(27:26):
This is why Neurosync isactually a really good solution,
because it overcomes theshortcomings of some of these
other approaches.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned the
90s.
That's basically where thestory begins.
I'll get to the other answersas well.
So our CTO, the guy whoinvented the device, he started
working on this project, who gotus all in on the project, he
experienced VR for the firsttime in the 90s and, like you
said, the Peridot culture,everything he had, the virtual
IO glasses, I think is what theywere called.
(28:00):
I was barely born there, I'mborn in 1996, so I was barely
around when those were around.
So he immediately knew that theproblem was going to be this
motion sickness.
Obviously, the headsets and theglasses had to become better.
So the motion that heexperienced in the game, but
everyone got to try it back inthose days.
So that motion that heexperienced in the game, but
everyone got to try it back inthose days.
So that's when he startedthinking about it.
(28:21):
But not until 2014 did he startactually working on the product
he knew.
Let's say when.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
VR started.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
And to answer the other part, the other part on
the solution to the thing is, inmy opinion, everyone is trying
to do it right.
The people who make games, theytry to do it, so it's not just
a hardware thing.
Everyone is trying to makepeople feel less sick in the
game.
So you'll have games whereyou're just standing around not
doing much.
You'll have games where you'rein a cockpit, so it helps a
(28:48):
little bit.
People are trying out differentstuff On the hardware side.
You've probably seen all thetreadmills, the ones where you
don't actually move, whereyou're just sliding feet around.
You've probably seen the littlepad that you press down with
your foot.
I forgot what it's called, butthere's a little product that
you can kind of press with yourfoot to start over there.
There's a bunch of things.
(29:08):
We are not certain.
A lot of those things help withVR, motion sickness, mainly
these treadmills not to hate onthem too much, but let's say I
mean I've tried them all and youmight have tried those.
Have you guys tried any of thetreadmills?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I have tried the treadmill and I'm not a huge fan
of it.
I think aggressive movementswith your head covered some
people can pull it off real welland some people are going to
really struggle.
I thought you get used to it.
But having the confidence to beable to just run and move your
feet in the way you want to, notknowing where you're going
(29:47):
technically going nowhere butyou don't know that has its own
set of problems.
So there'll be a lot of peoplewho just can't get used to those
variable direction treadmills.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
A lot of people.
I had tried a treadmill.
They still got motion sickness.
For a simple, simple reasonit's the feeling of motion.
It's not because I'm literallyjust moving my legs around
People who don't have legs theystill feel and experience motion
.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Not because of the legs right, it's because of
other things that you and Ithink that's true I mean, if you
just covered your head on aregular treadmill A, it would be
physically hard to run withoutseeing how fast you're going
where you're going.
And if the visuals of what youcovered your head with didn't
exactly match the bounce and themovement and the motion of your
(30:34):
physical body, I think you'rejust back to square one in a
different sense.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yes, and it's a good thing you mentioned the normal
gym treadmill, because if youguys ever use a treadmill in the
gym, when you just run onedirection for a while, when you
get off the treadmill you havethat weird feeling.
It's like something is draggingyou slightly behind because you
weren't actually runningoutside Running on the treadmill
.
It's not the same, it does notequal running outside.
(31:00):
You're just swooshing around,you're in a mirror, it's just
going like this.
And when you get off the deviceit does not feel like you ran,
it feels like you.
It's not the same, it justdoesn't feel the same to people.
And not only that, it's thatyour leg movements.
They don't translate to like aleg move in the game unless you
have like a specific thing onyour foot and that tells that
(31:21):
it's moving.
You know the friction of yourfoot hitting the floor,
initiating the motion of yourbody and et cetera.
That does not work with thesetreadmills.
You're basically pressing abutton just by hitting your feet
on the floor.
You're basically doing this pop,pop, pop with your foot to
(31:41):
initiate forward motion.
That's what you're doing withyour feet and that's, in my
opinion, not really a greatsolution.
We never really speak a lot ofthese treadmills because they
are not going to be not really acompetition for our product,
even though they might look likeon the first look they might
seem.
Because the games that you'regoing to be playing with your
treadmill, even if you like it,it's not the game that you're
going to be playing with theC-Infinity.
So if you're using thetreadmill to play Pavlov, for
example, that's your favoritegame, or any game similar to it,
(32:02):
coriolis on a Sunshine oranything that supports the
treadmill, that's going to be amachine for that.
But if you're our device,you're going to be playing AAA
games and thousands,hundreds,000.
I don't know how many the modsnow support, but that's the
thing.
The games that you're going toplay in Infinity, they cannot
physically be played in any ofthe treadmills.
You cannot do it.
(32:23):
It's not an X-input device thatjust plugs in.
They might be able to play by.
I don't know how you would aimor do any of the things.
You need buttons.
You need the treadmill.
It only translates the motionin the game.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yeah, that is definitely true.
The treadmill isn't thesolution for 99% of things, just
the physical size of them andthe way they're set up and the
environment they themselves needto be in.
So that's not the locomotionsolution at all.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
We call it movie logic.
It's something that you see ina movie and it makes sense.
When you see it, it's like ohfor sure, there we go, that's
the solution, make it and shipit.
In reality, it's not reallylike that.
It's not simple.
It's actually simple in ourcase, because our device is very
simple in the way it works.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
So for the hardcore VR people out there, how can
they test one of your devices?
How can they try one out?
How can they test one?
Speaker 3 (33:17):
of your devices.
How can they try one out?
How can they get one?
So right now they are availableon the indiegogo.
Indiegogo has it as anin-demand product, so it's
available.
You can just go to theindiegogo and, if you want, you
can just get your device.
Uh, if you want to try it out,there's a vr arcade in houston,
so it's not an official productor there.
But yeah, we have it therebecause we like to.
We put it there to like test itout.
It's called Exitus VR,e-x-i-t-u-s VR Exitus VR.
(33:40):
They're in Houston area.
We have some devices inGalveston, texas as well.
They're mostly in Texas.
We have one it's going to bevery soon in California.
There's going to be some.
Some will be shipped to NewYork.
So there's a.
There's a movie theateractually placed in New York
that's going to be getting thedevices.
We have one in Amsterdam.
(34:01):
We are now reaching out tovarious arcades to try and tell
them how good the devices are.
First, it makes it easy forthem to do their job.
It's easy to keep these peoplesafe.
They're not going to be runningaround dropping the headset,
dropping the controllers,changing the barriers.
They will never be doing that.
So, and in the controllers,changing the barriers.
You'll never be doing that.
And in the space in the arcadewhere you can fit one person,
you can fit four people in the Cinfinities, right, and they can
(34:22):
all safely play and it's veryeasy for one person to keep them
safe because they're not reallymoving anywhere.
So we are now talking to thesepeople.
The main problem we have rightnow with the arcades really is
not what we thought was not theproblem for the home user.
That is the problem for theArcade.
We can't really put the devicesin and like market it with the
IP we do not own.
(34:42):
So we don't have any rights toput Cyberpunk in our Arcade and
play and run Cyberpunk on Steamthere's it's not under the Steam
Arcade program or whatever.
We are actually developing ourown content for the Arcade and
it's going to be.
Also, it's going to be made,but tailored to the arcade
experience and to the uh uh, tothe, to our device.
So it's going to be like asporty, like we're.
(35:03):
We're making three games at themoment.
So there's like two shootersand the horror game are in the
works and those are going to be,and we're the first thing.
We're going to be working onmore titles.
Well, we got some reallytalented guys working on it and
they're looking really cool.
So far, we haven't shared anyof that yet out there, but we
are working on it and it's athing that's going to be this
(35:24):
year in arcades.
So we're going to be this yearin arcades and that, in our
opinion, is going to be the bestway for people to try them out.
So it's almost like a piece offurniture that you're going to
be buying it.
You obviously want toexperience it, but you need to
see it in person before you planfor it.
So, in our opinion, the bestlike a saloon for the furniture.
In our case, it's going to belike a VR arcade.
(35:47):
So you're just going to launchthe website and see, wherever in
the world you are, where theclosest arcade is, and we're
going to try and get them allover the place so that you can
be always very close by topeople and people can just go
out and try them.
We're going to hit the largestpopulation so that most people
that are going to be likely tobe interested in the device are
going to have an easy time toget to them.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
And the name of the device, just to be sure, is the
C Infinity and C as in theletter C, not a body of water.
That's the flagship productthat you guys have currently,
which is the standing unit.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
yes, yes, the c infinity, the name the c
infinity actually that's a funnystory as well.
So we were at the the worldexpo in dubai the 2021, 2022 and
we were trying to think of agood name for it, because
previously the working title wasVR Chair, which is just kind of
like, you know, generic name.
It's not really a good name fora product.
(36:42):
I mean it's okay, but we calledit the VR Chair.
It was just that it's literallyVR Chair.
The road to VR Chair came outsometime after we decided to
call ourselves VR Chair.
So then it was really obviouswe have to differentiate.
We cannot be called VRChair andnone of us could think of a
good name.
We all have like stupid ideasout there and this might not be
(37:03):
a good idea as well, but I don'tknow.
I haven't.
People usually they think itsounds cool, so I don't know how
I thought of it.
I was looking up various liketerms in math and that sort of
thing.
I'm not really a big math, Idon't.
I'm not a mathematician oranything, but I am interested.
You know, I'm always likelooking around stuff on the
internet, reading Wikipedia andeverything.
So I find this term C infinity.
It actually describes like uh,like, uh, the smoothest, the
(37:26):
smoothness of like a curve orlike something like that I'm not
sure it was, I can't reallyremember, but it's like a
connected to a function of thesmoothness or something like
that.
And I felt like this soundsreally cool because the way you
move with our device is smoothlocomotion.
It's not going to be segmentedor teleported or anything.
It's a smooth locomotion.
You can infinitely move in anydirection without having to
(37:47):
teleport or stop or do anything,without having to have an
infinite space around you tomove around with your own feet,
and our device kind of helpsaround with that.
So I thought C-In thoughtInfinity sounds pretty cool and
everyone else thought so as well, and we landed on that title.
That's the name, that's what itis.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Fun.
That's a cool story, yeah, very, very cool.
You know, without talking, youdon't have to reveal any sort of
secrets that are yet to come.
I'm really curious, thoughwhere are some avenues that
you're really excited about, andit could be in the general VR
(38:27):
space or even kind of thedirections.
Again, we don't want to causeyou to reveal any secret sauce
basically, cause you to revealany secret sauce basically, but
are there sort of like avenuesthat you're excited about that
where these things are going,whether in the VR space, you
know any of the sort of researchavenues you guys are doing?
Anything you want to comment onthat side of things?
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Yeah, so, if I understand correctly, you're
wondering regarding our productwhere it's going to, where we
think it's going to or just beno.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
no, I'm not looking for you to reveal any secrets or
whatnot for your product, Ifyou you know, or to whatever
extent you feel comfortable.
I'm just kind of curious interms of, like, you have the C
infinity.
You've mentioned some avenuesgoing into content.
At this point in time, you know, talk through a little bit of
kind of like where the mostexcitement is for you forward.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
So the biggest thing I can say regarding this,
regarding the future, again,going forward is esports, so
that's not something we reallyspoke a lot about.
There's some media that we'regoing to be shooting.
We're going to be shooting thestudio.
So we were checking out thestudio space here where we're
going to be shooting the studio.
So we were checking out thestudio space here where we're
going to be shooting some morecontent for the YouTube channel
and for the TikTok and Instagram.
(39:43):
The idea is.
So.
I don't know if you guys sawthe.
Have you seen Tenet the movie?
I have not, I'll admit, I meantto and I never got to it's okay
Doesn't matter For the peoplewho've seen it the yacht, they
use the ship, the big ship thingthat they use in the movie,
where the ship has thosehydrofoil sails that lift it
(40:06):
above the water.
So when you are using the yachtit flies.
It literally flies above thewater almost.
It has like a little sail thatgoes under the water to kind of
I'm not sure about the physicsof it right, it's a really
high-tech, like new thing thatexists and the people who make
those they literally likecreated a sport around them.
So now that it became a sport,people are more interested in
(40:28):
these yachts.
Right, because they have this.
It's recorded in a really niceway.
You have drones, you have likelike holograms on the water that
when you're a viewer, you havelike this epic sci-fi experience
of watching these people raisethe yachts right, and they fly
up above the water moving veryfast.
It looks amazing.
They have the UI and everything.
It's amazing and that's areally.
We thought that's a reallyclever and good way to make
(40:50):
something more popular by makingit a sport a sporting People
like sports, people like esports, esports are huge by making it
a sporting People like sports,people like esports, esports are
huge and VR esports are nothuge, for whatever reason.
Mostly because in my opinion,it's a bit tricky to produce VR
esports Esports first thecontent, the people who can
actually do it and the way thePVR is played.
Normally it's a hard thing tohave as an esports event.
(41:12):
You can imagine having peopleon the stage right and what are
they doing?
They're like laying on thefloor and falling over, shooting
each other.
It would be madness.
You can't have the lights, youcan't have the camera.
People have it.
There's a lot there that'smissing from having VR esports
in a good way and we are trying.
(41:33):
We will try to produce contentand to make an exciting thing.
We'll try to make teams aroundthe world that can practice and
then compete against each other.
That's what the guys, theyachts they put, the captains
all over the world who createdthe teams, and then they train
with these teams and theyrepresent the country and they
now all compete in this hugetournament.
That's what we want to do.
We want to make this tournamenthappen.
(41:53):
We want to find these people,train them up in the games and
they'll compete against eachother.
It can be shot in a beautifulway because the people are going
to be in the devices and youcan have a light above them and
when they die the light goes red, or something Like in Ready
Player One, the IO guys are inthe huge plate for the play VR.
You can do something like that.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Very cool.
I find it fascinating that, uh,you're, you're taking, you know
, vr, which we've been talkingabout, which has a significant
nausea problem, like we've beensaying, and this yacht, e-sport,
which is where we getseasickness from, and so I'm
(42:33):
immensely curious if you're ableto solve both of these things
at the same time.
So it's almost like nausea ontop of nausea and you're going
to, like you know, kill them allin one fell swoop.
So it's, it's almost like it'seither going to be constructive
interference, and everyone'sgoing to get sick after 50
seconds, or destructiveinterference, and everyone's
(42:54):
going to be blowing their mindsout, and it it's going to be
perfectly fine.
So that's very exciting.
I like that.
You know that kind ofcombination that you guys are
going for right now.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Yeah, you know what I dream of sometimes.
I imagine a huge arena and ahundred of the devices in there,
literally stacked like this,and a hundred people in them
competing in a what's it calledLike PUBG.
What's it called?
Um uh like pubg.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
What's it?
Speaker 3 (43:22):
called the battle arena, the, the, where they all
shoot each other one, then oneperson is the winner, the.
I literally it escapes me the,the type of the game, like pubg,
basically.
So just imagine them playingpubg or whatever.
Your preferred game is Apex orwhatever, so something like that
but it's literally a hundred ofthem and they're all fighting
each other and we have lightsunder them so you can see who's
(43:44):
live, who's dead or whatever.
It can look really good, it canlook sick.
That's one of the dreams I havea vision.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
I'd like to see it happen.
Virtual reality, hunger Games,I think, is what you're going
for at this point in time, kindof like that yeah, this is cool
stuff, very, very cool stuff.
Anything else in terms of whatyou want to talk about, either
about Neurosync or anyparticulars of the problem or
the solution that we didn't geta chance to cover?
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Yes.
So let me just think.
So basically, the to put tokind of summarize everything the
device.
It's not going to be foreveryone, so I'm just putting
out there.
We would hate for someone to begoing out there on the
indiegogo or the r e store shopor whatever, later buying it and
then realizing it's not forthem.
Think about the games thatyou're playing.
(44:33):
Think about the games that youwant to see.
If there are some of thosegames that you love on flat,
flat skin but you'd love to beplayed in VR, look it up.
It might be possible to play itin VR.
There's mods for a lot of thepopular games.
Just try, try to find and seewhere it works with our device.
It's going to be the best wayto play these wallet games
period, because of the nauseareduction, because of the
(44:54):
content, that you're actuallythe games that you're playing.
They're the games you mightactually really want to play.
They're not like a indie leveltech tech demo.
They're triple a titles, uh anduh.
Of course, if you get very sickfrom vr, I would suggest
strongly to try.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Try our device in a, in a place where you can try
before action and to be fairbased on what you have on the
website, because I fullyappreciate you saying it's not
for everyone, but some of thegames that I think you have on
there are pretty interesting,where it seems like you have a
battle mech type game.
For people who don't know,battle mechs are giant robots
(45:31):
that fight each other.
There's a flying game that youshowcase there where you're, you
know, like in the seat of acockpit going through, so you
know, just to talk your guys'sbook for a second, you know, in
terms of there there arecertainly popular avenues of
games for which it seems likeyour unit would be immensely
popular and very useful for forproviding a tremendous
(45:54):
experience.
So, and again, maybe I maybe I'munder representing the full set
of games that you should beconsidering, but I just wanted
to make sure we put that kind ofout there in terms of like the
the positive avenues to go downyeah, we, we know that vr is a
niche.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
Vr is a niche, right, and uh, we're not idiots.
We know that this is going tobe a micro-niche.
It's a niche of a niche.
It's a niche of input devicesfor VR locomotion.
That it's not going to be likea huge thing I'd love for it to
be but I realize that it's goingto be for people who are really
(46:33):
enthusiastic about trying outnew things in VR.
It's going to be about peoplewho really like tech.
It's going to be for people whoare really enthusiastic about
trying out new things in VR.
It's going to be about peoplewho really like tech.
It's going to be for people whowant to experience the games
they always wanted to try in VRin a much better way than
anything other that's available,like a keyboard or mouse or
whatever the normal gamepad.
It's going to be for thosepeople.
And, yeah, that's basically thedevice.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Well, I think what's nice is that the problem you're
tackling enables, basically, anexpansion of the market of VR,
where there's a set of peoplewho won't do VR because it just
makes them sick, and what's niceis that you're able to kind of
increase that audience by virtueof this augmentation at a
physiological level.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
Not going to be for everyone, but for the people
that it's going to be for,they're going to love it.
Just imagine, uh, normal peoplewho are not gamers but their
workplace now has them trainingin vr, whether it's a thing
where it's hard for them totrain by having them go out to
the like.
Let's say it's a hazardous area.
Let's say it's like an oil rigmodel or something you're not
going to be.
There might be I don't know howthey train them up, but there
(47:39):
might be sending people there.
It's going to be a lot easierfor these people to map out the
area, to learn it, to learn whattheir job is, how the place
looks like through VR.
And imagine if you're not agamer, you never use teleporting
around.
It's going to be uncomfortableWith our device.
(47:59):
With all the tests we've done.
We've tested thousands, we'vehad thousands of people in the
device.
More than 10,000 people havetried the device.
All people who struggle usinggamepads or whatever.
They do really good withC-Infinity A lot better than
you'd imagine, because they arelike a blank slate.
They don't compare it toanything else.
They don't compare it to a gamepeddler.
If for them, the the way youtell them it works.
(48:21):
They just kind of click with it.
So my mom, she's not a gamer,she doesn't play phone games,
she's completely not a gamer.
I had her, uh, while while gtawas available, the mod for gta.
It's not available anymore forgta 5 because of the take two.
They stood look, unfortunately,so he had to take it down the
mod.
That's a rare occurrence ofthat happening, really, but it
did.
That did happen with GTA, uh,actually with Rockstar games.
(48:44):
So you can't play Red DeadRedemption either by using the
look crosses mod.
There are other methods.
I'm just saying take two, don't, don't, don't sue me, but there
are other ways of doing it.
Uh, but, but I had my mom playGTA for like almost an hour.
She loved it and she wasn'tlike shooting people out of her,
she was just walking aroundexploring Los Santos.
She felt like she was there andthat's to me enough.
(49:07):
I know she doesn't use agamepad, she can't use a gamepad
, she tries.
It's not software, but with ourdevice it's that simple to move
around that it's very easy forpeople who are not gamers as
well, and there's going to bemore and more of these people in
VR due to their work, havingthem train or do their job in VR
.
That's all I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Rob, do you have any last questions that you want to
throw in there?
Speaker 2 (49:32):
No, I think that pretty much covers everything I
wanted to know about the device.
I look forward to trying oneIndeed.
Speaker 3 (49:40):
Yeah, so we will stay in touch.
I'll stay in touch.
I'll try to get a device closeto you so you can try it, or
I'll send it to you, orsomething like that, so you can
hear the sound.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
And Emanuele, if you need some folks basically to try
and solve some of yourcontroller issues, let us know.
You can hire us on we canfigure these things out.
Regardless, though, I just wantto say thank you so much.
This was fantastic in terms oftaking us through the problem.
What are some of the approachesand what you guys are doing
(50:10):
that's unique to really expandthis out, make it more
accessible, make it moreengaging, make it a lot more fun
?
So, nemanja, thank you so muchfor this.
Speaker 3 (50:20):
If you don't like it, that's totally fine.
You have all the other stuff inVR and you don't have to mess
around with this.
But if you like it, it's justmore stuff, more content, more
things to do in VR that areinnovated, not possible
otherwise.
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
All right.
Well, thank you so much and welook forward to maybe talking to
you again in the future to findout, you know, all the other
new incredible things that youguys are doing.
Speaker 3 (50:44):
Thank you.
Thank you.
I'd love to come back again andtell you all about it, for sure
.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Awesome, all right.
All right, welcome back to Tricky Bits with Rob and
PJ.
We've done a lot of discussionsin the past about VR, xr, ar and
many times, like most folks, wehave focused a lot on some of
the problems, like the optics,like the ability to have
(00:23):
pass-through, the ability tohave high resolution.
One thing that we have notgotten into very deeply is this
disparity problem that existsbetween what my eyes see, what
my visual cortex sees, and whatthe rest of my body actually
feels, and what the rest of mybody actually feels.
(00:49):
It's all well and good to beable to have a first-person
shooter in VR and be running atfull speed, but what I'm
experiencing in my eyes and whatmy inner ear, my vestibular
system, might be experiencing isvery different, and what
happens is that this can lead toa sense of nausea, can lead to
a sense of mismatch in ourbodies.
(01:10):
Today we're going to be havinga discussion, a little bit of a
preamble, with Rob and myself onwhat is some of the fundamental
roots of this nausea problem,but then also having an
interview with someone from acompany named Neurosync to
(01:31):
discuss a little bit more indetail both this as a problem,
as nausea, as well as somesolutions they've been coming up
with.
They've been coming up with,rob.
This has been one of thoseareas that is often overlooked
by the general press and itactually is a very fundamental
(01:53):
problem in terms of longevity ofusage for any of these VR XR
headsets.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Absolutely, and I think a lot of it comes down to
a lot of the reviewers andreporters who use these things
don't use them for anysignificant amount of time.
They put them on the head, theysee the pre-prepared materials
that the vendors want them tosee and they take it off the
head.
When you start using thesedevices in ways that you want to
(02:26):
whether it's playing games,watching movies or whatever it
may be you start to see theseproblems a lot more and again.
We always talk about the specsof how high resolution of the
screen, of vision pro has 4kscreens for each eye, etc.
And what's the latency, what'sthe field of view, all graphics
(02:47):
related things.
We don't talk about the opticsof those graphics.
We don't talk about the, thefocus distance, the
accommodation, um, things likethat which can induce eye strain
and give headaches.
We don't talk about the fact,like it says, I'm running around
with a joystick I'm actuallysitting still, but my visuals
are seeing the scene fly past athigh speed.
(03:07):
Introduces movement,seasickness type, uh, nausea.
No one talks about these thingsand, like you said, it's, it's
the key to making these wearablefor a long period of time.
No one's going to wear thesethings for eight hours if it
makes them feel sick.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
It's fascinating because, in many ways, where the
press has been at has beenreally extending the narratives
around what had been done fortelevisions or game consoles,
which is focusing in on theresolution, focusing in on the
frames per second.
And now that we've entered anew paradigm, I think it's
taking some time to catch up tothe fact that this isn't just a
(03:50):
game console.
In your head it's a replicationof some form of reality, but
that form of reality very muchis dissonant to the reality we
actually experience it in.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yep, and we've only really solved the one problem.
We've solved the visual problem.
We've kind of done that badly,but we've done it enough to
convince us we're in this 3Dworld, and then the rest of your
body is going ah, I reject thatreality.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
So we hope you enjoy the second interview episode and
keep following up more with usin terms of where we're poking
around at the VR AR side ofthings.
All right, everyone, welcomeback to Tricky Bits with Rob and
(04:41):
PJ.
We are really excited.
Today we have our secondinterview episode and we have
with us Nemanja Milosevic, andI'm so sorry if I mispronounce
the name.
I would encourage you tocorrect me so we get it right.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Milosevic.
Milosevic is a controversialone.
Milosevic is a lot better formost people.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Thank you very much.
Thank you for the correction,and Nemanja is coming from a
company called Neurosync.
Especially with the release ofthe Apple Vision Pro XR, ar, vr
has become even more in thezeitgeist of technology, and one
of the interesting problemsthat exists is, you know,
(05:28):
despite whatever bits oftechnology we can put into these
headsets, we still end up withthis problem of a mismatch, that
it is virtual, it is not real,and so what I might be seeing
and what I might bephysiologically experiencing my
body is different, and so thereis going to be a cognitive
(05:51):
dissidence, a mismatch that insome cases can be annoying, in
other cases can lead to thingslike nausea.
So one of the things that we aregoing to tease apart in this
episode really is really tryingto dive deep into this problem
of VR, the VIMS problem, which Ithink, Nemanja, you're going to
(06:13):
take us through, what thatmeans, the physiological issues
that occur, and we want to divea bit deep into understanding
what this really looks like,maybe some of the various
approaches, and then howneurosync is actually trying to
fix this issue.
Rob, do you have any otherother preamble stuff that you
(06:35):
want to add into this one?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
no, it's it's really interesting because I come from
the graphic side of AR and VR.
We tend to think, oh, we do astereo image, we render left and
right eye, we project them intoyour face and it's all good,
that's it.
It looks like 3D, it works like3D.
But, myself included, a lot ofpeople are very sensitive to the
(07:00):
mismatch in the actual focusthat you're seeing versus the
fact that your eyes know thattvs are an inch in front of your
eyes and that mismatch in yourbrain really interferes with
some people, gives themheadaches.
Cause, not causes.
Uh, nausea.
I don't get nauseous.
I do get a cracking headacheafter about five minutes of
(07:22):
wearing any of these devices.
The one that I didn't get asmuch of a headache with was
magic leap, which, being true ar, additive light, obviously your
most of what you're seeing isthe real world and it's only a
few objects that are renderedhere and there which are virtual
and they tend to have a betteraccommodation than pixels
(07:47):
projected right in front of yourface.
So I think the back end of ARand VR, all this needs to be
solved before it's a trueconsumer device.
I mean, cell phones wouldn't beas popular as they were as they
are if people got sick everytime they looked at the screen.
So this is a problem that needsto be solved.
(08:07):
So I'm very interested to hearwhat you're doing.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah, before I start, let me ask you so, when you get
, not nausea, but when you getthe headache, is it all just
from wearing the headset or isit connected to something you do
with it?
Is it connected to virtuallocomotion, would you say, or is
it just from wearing it?
If you're just consuming normalmedia, would that be like a
movie in VR?
Would that still produce aheadache?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
for you.
Some of it is related to themovement and if I sat, I've not
actually watched a movie on theVision Pro.
I've watched little bits of itand most of the time I was
working on it it wasn't reallyworking.
So, on the finished product, Ihave not actually sat and
watched one of the high-end,high-definition movies, so I
don't know whether that wouldstill do it, because that would
(08:53):
just be sitting still wearing it.
A lot of it as well is becauseI worked on all of this.
On the technical side.
Most of what I was working onwasn't actually working.
So there's always bugs andthings and that doesn't help
with the headache problem.
But I do definitely get it ifI'm moving around, If I put an
(09:13):
Oculus on and try to play a gamewhere I'm definitely moving
around.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Even when using your body, so not just virtual even
when moving around.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yeah, and I've not done a huge amount of that, just
because with the full headseton, you tend to hit things and
crash into things and thingslike that, without having a
studio where you can actuallyreally experience it.
I think a lot of people haveprobably not experienced it in
its full form because ofphysical space restrictions yeah
, yeah, a lot of people don'tactually have enough space for
(09:44):
normal VR.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
I mean, they might have space to play Walkabout
Mini Golf, which is a just finegame I love Walkabout but they
won't be playing anything thathas them really jumping around
or waving their arms around.
A lot of people don't have thatkind of space or a safe
environment for doing so.
So that's a big issue that VRstill faces, in my opinion.
Yeah, your situation isinteresting, so I would like for
(10:08):
you to try our device,obviously to see how it goes for
you.
But our device it solves nauseafor people that have a specific
reason why they get sick, whichis the vestibular disconnect
when they move.
What they see does not matchwhat they feel.
And if you get a headache fromjust wearing a headset and not
really connected to the virtuallocomotion that you're
(10:30):
performing, if you get sick fromjust wearing it and moving
around with your own body, I'mnot sure that it's going to have
much of an effect on you, right, If that's the reason why you
get the sickness the emotionalsickness but in our case, the
people who are going to benefitmost from the nausea reduction
side are going to be the peoplewho struggle moving around using
(10:51):
the joysticks as an inputmethod.
So the joysticks, they're not aprecise way of moving around.
You don't get that muchprecision with a controller on a
stick and a lot of these gamessometimes they'll have you
influence the motion by movingyour arm around, Sometimes it's
by looking around.
So there's still differences invarious games or content in the
(11:14):
way that you actually movearound, Not to mention the speed
is almost never the same inthese games.
You always move around at adifferent pace, which might not
be the right pace for you, aswell as rotation.
For some people the segmentedrotation helps where you do the
segmented rotation, but for alot of people that's not
immersive.
That's not the way theyexperience the real world.
So they don't want toexperience the segmented
(11:35):
rotation of the game.
They don't want to teleport.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Could you go in and maybe let's double-click a
little bit on the vestibulardisconnect.
Because, it seems like it wouldbe useful to kind of say, hey,
we've got this visual field thatmight be moving hyper fast, but
obviously there's a disconnectthat's happening because my ears
aren't feeling that.
So can you dive a little bitinto that?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Yeah, so well.
Your brain, you know it has.
You have the motor cortex, youhave the vestibular cortex, the
vestibular organ in your body,and when you move around in real
life, like when I'm walkingaround right now on the street
here, I can see that I'm movingaround.
So my eyes definitely see andthe refresh rate is perfect.
So if the refresh rate waslower than 90, for most people
(12:17):
90 is good enough.
I'm speaking about VR.
So in real life it's infiniteand I'm feeling great In VR it
has to be at least 90 for mostpeople.
Some people will still needmore, but for most people, as it
has been 90.
So I actually feel and perceivewith my eyes what's going on
when you move around in avirtual environment in a video
game.
So when you use a stick to movethe joystick, you still you see
(12:40):
the movement, but you don'tfeel it.
Your body is not picking up onthe small things it's been
trained on over the years you'vebeen alive to pick up on and
it's not picking those up right.
There's a disconnect there.
There's a mismatch of what yousee and what you feel.
Your body has a lot of sensors.
It's not a simple thing toexplain.
It's like this part of yourbrain is the one that's
responsible for it.
It's your whole body.
(13:01):
It has receptors all over itand the neurons and everything
in your brain, they all worktogether to tell you that you're
actually moving around when youmove.
Otherwise, you feel sick, youthink you've eaten something
that's bad, gone bad probablyand your body wants to expel you
out.
For some people it's different.
Some people get a headache.
It's the same thing people geton a ship when they're in the
cabin, but it's just a differentreason.
(13:21):
But it's just a differentreason.
Over there you have a fixedpoint of reference.
Your whole room feels static.
You don't expect the room tomove, but the ship might be
doing this right.
So you also get a vestibulardisconnect where you're feeling
it but you're not seeing it.
So it can be the other wayaround and you get motion
sickness, sea sickness or, inour case here, the simulation
(13:41):
sickness, because of themismatch in your brain and what
your body is doing, when ourdevice really comes in and how
it works.
I mean first, if anyone haslistened to this and has not
seen the C-Infinity before, I'lltry to explain it slightly.
On the physical side, it's adevice that we call it sometimes
between us like the chair.
You know, did you set up thechair?
That's what we say because it'skind of like a chair.
(14:02):
You don't really sit in it.
So it's not a chair in thatsense.
It's more of a device where youlean into right, so it has a
seat, and that seat is designedin an ergonomic way, obviously,
so that it feels good when youlean back into it.
It has a platform on the bottomwhere your feet go, and it's a
pretty large platform so you canput your feet wherever it feels
comfortable for you.
But you usually put them there,and the platform is at a slight
(14:23):
angle so that when you leanback into the device, your body
is actually standing straight.
It feels like you're standingnormally on the ground.
It's a slight angle and youhave these armrests that come
out of the seat where your armsgo, and on the end of the
armrest you have two controllersthat are fixed on the armrest
where your hands go, and this isall ergonomically designed so
(14:44):
that it fits your body properly.
It could be adjusted for yourbody.
You can extend the armrest, youcan adjust the height, you can
do all sorts of things on thedevice to make it more
comfortable for you, andcompared to some other devices
devices you have a lot morefreedom to really have your body
any way you want.
If there's no one right way touse it, you can have your body
freely stand there the way youlike.
(15:05):
So it's it's also good.
So you are basically restingthere and your arms are on the
on these armrests and you canstay in that position for a long
time.
So when you lean back into it,put on the headset, you load the
game or the content router andthen you want to move forward.
What we have you do is your,your hands are at the end of
these umbrellas like this.
You pull on them so they don'tactually move anywhere.
(15:27):
I'm just doing this to showwhat I'm doing, but they don't
actually move.
They measure the force in theforce and pulling.
Okay, If I'm pulling veryslightly, I'm going to start
moving forward very slightly.
So it's very precise.
It's a lot more precise thanyou can ever get with a game pad
or a controller or whatever.
It measures literally from thesmallest, like grams, up to
(15:49):
kilos of force, so you can bevery, very.
It's a high resolution there,so you can be very precise.
You can really sneak veryslowly.
And the thing is, when you pullthe butter in your hands, your
somatosensory cortex actuallythere are receptors in the
tactile, there are tactilecorpuscles in your fingertips
and palms.
They send signals to thesomatosensory cortex in your
(16:09):
brain.
It processes there the feelingsof touch, the pressure,
anything but the moral cortex isposterior.
It's right next to thesomatosensory cortex and there's
a slight overlap of theelectrical signals being fired
from firing up in that part ofthe brain next to the moral
cortex.
When you use the device, you'llfeel a weird feeling the first
(16:30):
time you use it.
But after a while your brainlearns to associate this as
motion.
And when you pull, when youissue the forward command, the
back command does the same.
You just push into it.
So it's like you're pullingyourself closer to stuff or
you're pushing yourself awayfrom stuff.
So your brain already has likea point of reference.
When it pulls it feels likeyou're going to pull yourself
(16:50):
out.
But you start moving, yourbrain starts connecting that
with emotion sensation.
You feel this slight locomotionin your brain.
That's enough for a lot ofpeople to help them overcome the
nausea, because there's aslightly there's slightly less
of this mismatch, if that makessense.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
This is interesting in terms of how you're trying to
solve this problem.
It seems like, rob, what youwere saying is that with Magic
Leap, you know it was additivelight for the augmented items,
so you actually were seeing thereal world.
The real world was just there.
For most VR we don't have thishuge expanse where it would
(17:28):
match basically what's in thegame where I could just
literally just walk around.
I'm typically confined into asmaller area for VR to actually
interact with stuff and in thelimit I'm just standing and so
I'm just using the joysticks tomove around.
(17:49):
But that creates the highestlevel of contrast between what I
see visually and what my bodyis feeling.
See visually and what my bodyis feeling.
Is it fair to say whatNeuroSync is doing is?
You know you're not able toreplicate that kind of magic
leap, like see everything,because obviously it's not a
(18:10):
headset, but you're creating asubstitutive motion that is
within like the same vectorspace as the motion you want to
do, like either move forward,move back, do a rotation to in
some sense reduce the contrastbetween what the body is feeling
(18:30):
and what the eyes are seeing.
Is that a good way of puttingit Exactly?
That's?
Speaker 3 (18:34):
the best way to put it really.
The simplest way to put itreally is that ArtiWise does not
help everyone.
It will help people whoexperience motion sickness in VR
due to the locomotion.
That's where we come in and,like I say, it's a bell curve,
so some people are going to beon the end, where they don't get
sick from VR ever, which isgoing to be like me or they're
going to be on the other end,for example, our CTO.
(18:55):
He gets very sick from VR.
Most people are somewhere inthe middle who are going to be
maybe a discomfort for a slightbit, or they might not get sick
and then have a headache after awhile, like Robert, that sort
of thing.
Most people are somewhere inthe middle.
For those middle guys, which isthe most of the people, that's
where Synfity helps the most.
If you are very prone to motionsickness, this is a slight
(19:15):
sensation that your brain trains.
After playing for a bit more,you start to feel it more.
I don't know how to explainbetter than that, but for people
who are very prone to motionsickness, it might take them
longer.
I'm still pretty confident thateveryone can grasp it because
it's really not different fromanything else you've tried in VR
(19:36):
.
I'd also like to mention onemore thing to explain to anyone
who might be listening.
It might be hard to understandhow you're going to be playing
your games using this, becauseyou are used to using motion
track controllers in games.
So you might be wondering if Iwant to play Pavlov or Beat
Saber or whatever, how is thatgoing to work out?
So you're not going to beplaying games that specifically
only accept motion trackcontrollers.
(19:57):
So that's going to be gameslike Pavlov.
That's going to be games likeWalkabout Games, where you only
use the motion check controllers.
That's not going to be thegames you're going to be playing
.
So you might be now thinkingwhat are these games that don't
use the motion check controllers?
Are there any games like that?
Until recently, there wasn'tthat many of them, but after the
release of UEVR by PreyDog,there are now apparently 10,000
(20:20):
or whatever games.
I'm not sure.
I haven't tested them all.
So that's a really cool thing.
For people who don't get motionsickness, they like motion tech
controllers it's gonna beawesome.
But for a lot of the contentmost of the content it's not
gonna work with the motion techcontrollers.
So you're stuck without theoption of playing these games in
a good enough way.
In VR, you might use the Xbox360 gamepad, for example, but
(20:41):
it's not going to feel immersiveor good in any way right.
Or you could use the mouse andkeyboard, which is going to be
just even in reverse With ourdevice.
It's literally like a matchmade in heaven for these games.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Do you just expose your inputsas a USB device, or are you
pretending to be some sort ofsimulated controller so you can
directly?
Plug in, or do you have just aprivate SDK that people can
integrate?
What is the software interfaceside?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Yeah, so we don't have any software for it.
Literally it's just one USBcable you plug into your PC.
The computer will say Cinfinity, but it's an X input
device.
So any content that alreadyworks with the XInput, which is
pretty much all the content,they all work just great out of
the box.
You don't have to set upanything outside of the content,
outside of the options withinthe content.
Say, you're playing a game, youmight want to set up the input
(21:31):
router, but that's usuallywithin the options of the game.
Our control C Infinity isliterally just one USB cable
that you plug into your PC.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Just make it an X-input device.
That's a great way of doing it,which opens up another question
how does it work withPlayStation VR, because they
don't support X-input?
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Yes, so with PlayStation VR 2, so the new
PlayStation VR it won't workwith that one.
It does not work with it.
I tried it.
It doesn't work because the newPlayStation VR it uses the
motion track controllers.
They made them, they made thePlayStation make their own now,
so they work pretty well.
But they cut the support forthe gamepad, so that's too bad.
But if you're an owner of thePlayStation VR 1, it works with
(22:09):
a lot of the games Skyrim, Idon't know.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I suspect there's something that can be done there
, because I believe you can useUSB-D level software user mode
drivers on the PlayStation.
Yeah, that's probably a way tomake the next job work Very
early on, and so you canprobably write some sort of
library just to pretend.
The downside is because youexpose it as a game controller
(22:36):
prior to being an X-input device.
It's probably going to installits own driver and then fail
because it's not a PlayStationcontroller, but it is a
controller class.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Yeah, the way we got it to work with the first
PlayStation is the way we got itto work was using a Titan
adapter.
So the thing people I don'tknow.
I think people use those toattach third-party controllers.
I use it to connect theInfinity.
So I would connect thethird-party adapter to the
PlayStation on the USB port onthe front.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
So yeah, I think your product does solve that whole
locomotion side of VR, which is,like I said earlier, it's very
misunderstood or not consideredat all.
Everyone always just dives infor the graphics and the latency
and the hard specs, and I thinkthat's what affects me.
(23:24):
It's the latency and the opticsthat give me the headache.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
And probably the weight.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
But, like we said, this is an entirely barely
discussed side of AR and VR thatdoes need to get solved before
these can be worn for anysignificant period of time.
Like Apple's pushing the VisionPro to like, oh, wear it all
day, it's like you can't reallywear it all day if you're going
to get sick in the first fiveminutes.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Yeah, and the weight thing as well.
So at least Apple got thebattery out of the headset, so
it's on your side.
Some people don't like that, Idon't.
I personally don't really mindit that much, so it's okay, but
it's, it's a compromise.
I mean there's not going to beever, I think, a simple, single
solution for all of the problems.
It's a hard thing to imaginethat there might be a headset
(24:17):
one day that you put on, it'snot heavy, it's perfect latency,
perfect sharpness, picture,retinal level, whatever, and
where it doesn't get you sickwhen you virtually locomote.
I don't think that's going tobe an easy thing to solve with
one simple device.
Right, it has to be a system,it has to be a setup of things.
Your body is a system.
It has to be a setup of things.
(24:37):
Your body is a system.
Right, it's not just the brainin a in a jar, it's your body,
it's your, your spine, yourhands, fingers.
There's calculations going onin them before they enter the
brain not all in the brain,right?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
yeah, I agree, I think we're a long way from
solving all of these in oneheadset because on just on the
optic side there's the thetraditional focus accommodation
problem, and I think there's abig difference here between AR
and VR.
Like I said, ar most of whatyou're looking at is the real
world, I think the devices youwould wear all day, like if you
(25:09):
could just make a pair ofglasses that you could walk
around in.
99% of what you're seeing isreal motion based on you moving
about.
There's very little in yourfield of view that's actually
virtual.
It's just key pieces when, forvirtual reality, you have all of
the problems with the screen inyour face, you have all the
(25:31):
problems with accommodationbeing completely wrong and you
have the latency problemsproblems.
You have the field of viewproblems.
You have all of that on thetechnical side, which is what
all we ever talk about, but thewhole locomotion side of your
head's covered.
But I'm moving in a way that'sdifferent to what my optics are
telling me is something that weI don't think are going to solve
(25:55):
in any single headset in areasonably close time frame.
Yes, I, I, I agree, I don'tthink are going to solve in any
single headset in a reasonablyclose timeframe.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yes, I agree, I don't think it's going to happen.
Honestly, you'd have to workout something like a fantastical
, magical solution that tricksyour brain, like, let's say, I
don't know, neuralink from ElonMusk's Neuralink.
I don't think people are goingto be installing that to play
their games.
But who am I to say that people, 100 years from now, might be
(26:21):
doing?
I personally would not do itjust to play games in a better
way.
But honestly, other than that,other than an invasive method in
your brain and your full body,I'm not sure how to do it in a
device that was so, short ofbrain surgery, I think what you
guys are saying is that there'svery little that we know we can
do on the headset right now.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
So, effectively, like the headsets, are the headsets
without something you know againgoing invasive?
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Yes, yes, the virtual locomotive.
You start moving, but your bodydoes not feel it, unless you
make it somehow feel it With theheadset.
That's not going to happen.
It's only going to show youthat you're moving, so what?
Speaker 1 (27:02):
I'm really curious there.
Obviously, this, these problems, have been around for a while,
for as long as VR has beenaround.
I mean, I remember kind of theearly days of shooting at the
pterodactyl in that, thenineties VR standup unit.
What are the other approachesthat have been attempted to
combat this nausea problem andmaybe contrast that with hey?
(27:26):
This is why Neurosync isactually a really good solution,
because it overcomes theshortcomings of some of these
other approaches.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned the
90s.
That's basically where thestory begins.
I'll get to the other answersas well.
So our CTO, the guy whoinvented the device, he started
working on this project, who gotus all in on the project, he
experienced VR for the firsttime in the 90s and, like you
said, the Peridot culture,everything he had, the virtual
IO glasses, I think is what theywere called.
(28:00):
I was barely born there, I'mborn in 1996, so I was barely
around when those were around.
So he immediately knew that theproblem was going to be this
motion sickness.
Obviously, the headsets and theglasses had to become better.
So the motion that heexperienced in the game, but
everyone got to try it back inthose days.
So that motion that heexperienced in the game, but
everyone got to try it back inthose days.
So that's when he startedthinking about it.
(28:21):
But not until 2014 did he startactually working on the product
he knew.
Let's say when.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
VR started.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
And to answer the other part, the other part on
the solution to the thing is, inmy opinion, everyone is trying
to do it right.
The people who make games, theytry to do it, so it's not just
a hardware thing.
Everyone is trying to makepeople feel less sick in the
game.
So you'll have games whereyou're just standing around not
doing much.
You'll have games where you'rein a cockpit, so it helps a
(28:48):
little bit.
People are trying out differentstuff On the hardware side.
You've probably seen all thetreadmills, the ones where you
don't actually move, whereyou're just sliding feet around.
You've probably seen the littlepad that you press down with
your foot.
I forgot what it's called, butthere's a little product that
you can kind of press with yourfoot to start over there.
There's a bunch of things.
(29:08):
We are not certain.
A lot of those things help withVR, motion sickness, mainly
these treadmills not to hate onthem too much, but let's say I
mean I've tried them all and youmight have tried those.
Have you guys tried any of thetreadmills?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I have tried the treadmill and I'm not a huge fan
of it.
I think aggressive movementswith your head covered some
people can pull it off real welland some people are going to
really struggle.
I thought you get used to it.
But having the confidence to beable to just run and move your
feet in the way you want to, notknowing where you're going
(29:47):
technically going nowhere butyou don't know that has its own
set of problems.
So there'll be a lot of peoplewho just can't get used to those
variable direction treadmills.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
A lot of people.
I had tried a treadmill.
They still got motion sickness.
For a simple, simple reasonit's the feeling of motion.
It's not because I'm literallyjust moving my legs around
People who don't have legs theystill feel and experience motion
.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Not because of the legs right, it's because of
other things that you and Ithink that's true I mean, if you
just covered your head on aregular treadmill A, it would be
physically hard to run withoutseeing how fast you're going
where you're going.
And if the visuals of what youcovered your head with didn't
exactly match the bounce and themovement and the motion of your
(30:34):
physical body, I think you'rejust back to square one in a
different sense.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yes, and it's a good thing you mentioned the normal
gym treadmill, because if youguys ever use a treadmill in the
gym, when you just run onedirection for a while, when you
get off the treadmill you havethat weird feeling.
It's like something is draggingyou slightly behind because you
weren't actually runningoutside Running on the treadmill
.
It's not the same, it does notequal running outside.
(31:00):
You're just swooshing around,you're in a mirror, it's just
going like this.
And when you get off the deviceit does not feel like you ran,
it feels like you.
It's not the same, it justdoesn't feel the same to people.
And not only that, it's thatyour leg movements.
They don't translate to like aleg move in the game unless you
have like a specific thing onyour foot and that tells that
(31:21):
it's moving.
You know the friction of yourfoot hitting the floor,
initiating the motion of yourbody and et cetera.
That does not work with thesetreadmills.
You're basically pressing abutton just by hitting your feet
on the floor.
You're basically doing this pop,pop, pop with your foot to
(31:41):
initiate forward motion.
That's what you're doing withyour feet and that's, in my
opinion, not really a greatsolution.
We never really speak a lot ofthese treadmills because they
are not going to be not really acompetition for our product,
even though they might look likeon the first look they might
seem.
Because the games that you'regoing to be playing with your
treadmill, even if you like it,it's not the game that you're
going to be playing with theC-Infinity.
So if you're using thetreadmill to play Pavlov, for
example, that's your favoritegame, or any game similar to it,
(32:02):
coriolis on a Sunshine oranything that supports the
treadmill, that's going to be amachine for that.
But if you're our device,you're going to be playing AAA
games and thousands,hundreds,000.
I don't know how many the modsnow support, but that's the
thing.
The games that you're going toplay in Infinity, they cannot
physically be played in any ofthe treadmills.
You cannot do it.
(32:23):
It's not an X-input device thatjust plugs in.
They might be able to play by.
I don't know how you would aimor do any of the things.
You need buttons.
You need the treadmill.
It only translates the motionin the game.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yeah, that is definitely true.
The treadmill isn't thesolution for 99% of things, just
the physical size of them andthe way they're set up and the
environment they themselves needto be in.
So that's not the locomotionsolution at all.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
We call it movie logic.
It's something that you see ina movie and it makes sense.
When you see it, it's like ohfor sure, there we go, that's
the solution, make it and shipit.
In reality, it's not reallylike that.
It's not simple.
It's actually simple in ourcase, because our device is very
simple in the way it works.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
So for the hardcore VR people out there, how can
they test one of your devices?
How can they try one out?
How can they test one?
Speaker 3 (33:17):
of your devices.
How can they try one out?
How can they get one?
So right now they are availableon the indiegogo.
Indiegogo has it as anin-demand product, so it's
available.
You can just go to theindiegogo and, if you want, you
can just get your device.
Uh, if you want to try it out,there's a vr arcade in houston,
so it's not an official productor there.
But yeah, we have it therebecause we like to.
We put it there to like test itout.
It's called Exitus VR,e-x-i-t-u-s VR Exitus VR.
(33:40):
They're in Houston area.
We have some devices inGalveston, texas as well.
They're mostly in Texas.
We have one it's going to bevery soon in California.
There's going to be some.
Some will be shipped to NewYork.
So there's a.
There's a movie theateractually placed in New York
that's going to be getting thedevices.
We have one in Amsterdam.
(34:01):
We are now reaching out tovarious arcades to try and tell
them how good the devices are.
First, it makes it easy forthem to do their job.
It's easy to keep these peoplesafe.
They're not going to be runningaround dropping the headset,
dropping the controllers,changing the barriers.
They will never be doing that.
So, and in the controllers,changing the barriers.
You'll never be doing that.
And in the space in the arcadewhere you can fit one person,
you can fit four people in the Cinfinities, right, and they can
(34:22):
all safely play and it's veryeasy for one person to keep them
safe because they're not reallymoving anywhere.
So we are now talking to thesepeople.
The main problem we have rightnow with the arcades really is
not what we thought was not theproblem for the home user.
That is the problem for theArcade.
We can't really put the devicesin and like market it with the
IP we do not own.
(34:42):
So we don't have any rights toput Cyberpunk in our Arcade and
play and run Cyberpunk on Steamthere's it's not under the Steam
Arcade program or whatever.
We are actually developing ourown content for the Arcade and
it's going to be.
Also, it's going to be made,but tailored to the arcade
experience and to the uh uh, tothe, to our device.
So it's going to be like asporty, like we're.
(35:03):
We're making three games at themoment.
So there's like two shootersand the horror game are in the
works and those are going to be,and we're the first thing.
We're going to be working onmore titles.
Well, we got some reallytalented guys working on it and
they're looking really cool.
So far, we haven't shared anyof that yet out there, but we
are working on it and it's athing that's going to be this
(35:24):
year in arcades.
So we're going to be this yearin arcades and that, in our
opinion, is going to be the bestway for people to try them out.
So it's almost like a piece offurniture that you're going to
be buying it.
You obviously want toexperience it, but you need to
see it in person before you planfor it.
So, in our opinion, the bestlike a saloon for the furniture.
In our case, it's going to belike a VR arcade.
(35:47):
So you're just going to launchthe website and see, wherever in
the world you are, where theclosest arcade is, and we're
going to try and get them allover the place so that you can
be always very close by topeople and people can just go
out and try them.
We're going to hit the largestpopulation so that most people
that are going to be likely tobe interested in the device are
going to have an easy time toget to them.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
And the name of the device, just to be sure, is the
C Infinity and C as in theletter C, not a body of water.
That's the flagship productthat you guys have currently,
which is the standing unit.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
yes, yes, the c infinity, the name the c
infinity actually that's a funnystory as well.
So we were at the the worldexpo in dubai the 2021, 2022 and
we were trying to think of agood name for it, because
previously the working title wasVR Chair, which is just kind of
like, you know, generic name.
It's not really a good name fora product.
(36:42):
I mean it's okay, but we calledit the VR Chair.
It was just that it's literallyVR Chair.
The road to VR Chair came outsometime after we decided to
call ourselves VR Chair.
So then it was really obviouswe have to differentiate.
We cannot be called VRChair andnone of us could think of a
good name.
We all have like stupid ideasout there and this might not be
(37:03):
a good idea as well, but I don'tknow.
I haven't.
People usually they think itsounds cool, so I don't know how
I thought of it.
I was looking up various liketerms in math and that sort of
thing.
I'm not really a big math, Idon't.
I'm not a mathematician oranything, but I am interested.
You know, I'm always likelooking around stuff on the
internet, reading Wikipedia andeverything.
So I find this term C infinity.
It actually describes like uh,like, uh, the smoothest, the
(37:26):
smoothness of like a curve orlike something like that I'm not
sure it was, I can't reallyremember, but it's like a
connected to a function of thesmoothness or something like
that.
And I felt like this soundsreally cool because the way you
move with our device is smoothlocomotion.
It's not going to be segmentedor teleported or anything.
It's a smooth locomotion.
You can infinitely move in anydirection without having to
(37:47):
teleport or stop or do anything,without having to have an
infinite space around you tomove around with your own feet,
and our device kind of helpsaround with that.
So I thought C-In thoughtInfinity sounds pretty cool and
everyone else thought so as well, and we landed on that title.
That's the name, that's what itis.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Fun.
That's a cool story, yeah, very, very cool.
You know, without talking, youdon't have to reveal any sort of
secrets that are yet to come.
I'm really curious, thoughwhere are some avenues that
you're really excited about, andit could be in the general VR
(38:27):
space or even kind of thedirections.
Again, we don't want to causeyou to reveal any secret sauce
basically, cause you to revealany secret sauce basically, but
are there sort of like avenuesthat you're excited about that
where these things are going,whether in the VR space, you
know any of the sort of researchavenues you guys are doing?
Anything you want to comment onthat side of things?
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Yeah, so, if I understand correctly, you're
wondering regarding our productwhere it's going to, where we
think it's going to or just beno.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
no, I'm not looking for you to reveal any secrets or
whatnot for your product, Ifyou you know, or to whatever
extent you feel comfortable.
I'm just kind of curious interms of, like, you have the C
infinity.
You've mentioned some avenuesgoing into content.
At this point in time, you know, talk through a little bit of
kind of like where the mostexcitement is for you forward.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
So the biggest thing I can say regarding this,
regarding the future, again,going forward is esports, so
that's not something we reallyspoke a lot about.
There's some media that we'regoing to be shooting.
We're going to be shooting thestudio.
So we were checking out thestudio space here where we're
going to be shooting the studio.
So we were checking out thestudio space here where we're
going to be shooting some morecontent for the YouTube channel
and for the TikTok and Instagram.
(39:43):
The idea is.
So.
I don't know if you guys sawthe.
Have you seen Tenet the movie?
I have not, I'll admit, I meantto and I never got to it's okay
Doesn't matter For the peoplewho've seen it the yacht, they
use the ship, the big ship thingthat they use in the movie,
where the ship has thosehydrofoil sails that lift it
(40:06):
above the water.
So when you are using the yachtit flies.
It literally flies above thewater almost.
It has like a little sail thatgoes under the water to kind of
I'm not sure about the physicsof it right, it's a really
high-tech, like new thing thatexists and the people who make
those they literally likecreated a sport around them.
So now that it became a sport,people are more interested in
(40:28):
these yachts.
Right, because they have this.
It's recorded in a really niceway.
You have drones, you have likelike holograms on the water that
when you're a viewer, you havelike this epic sci-fi experience
of watching these people raisethe yachts right, and they fly
up above the water moving veryfast.
It looks amazing.
They have the UI and everything.
It's amazing and that's areally.
We thought that's a reallyclever and good way to make
(40:50):
something more popular by makingit a sport a sporting People
like sports, people like esports, esports are huge by making it
a sporting People like sports,people like esports, esports are
huge and VR esports are nothuge, for whatever reason.
Mostly because in my opinion,it's a bit tricky to produce VR
esports Esports first thecontent, the people who can
actually do it and the way thePVR is played.
Normally it's a hard thing tohave as an esports event.
(41:12):
You can imagine having peopleon the stage right and what are
they doing?
They're like laying on thefloor and falling over, shooting
each other.
It would be madness.
You can't have the lights, youcan't have the camera.
People have it.
There's a lot there that'smissing from having VR esports
in a good way and we are trying.
(41:33):
We will try to produce contentand to make an exciting thing.
We'll try to make teams aroundthe world that can practice and
then compete against each other.
That's what the guys, theyachts they put, the captains
all over the world who createdthe teams, and then they train
with these teams and theyrepresent the country and they
now all compete in this hugetournament.
That's what we want to do.
We want to make this tournamenthappen.
(41:53):
We want to find these people,train them up in the games and
they'll compete against eachother.
It can be shot in a beautifulway because the people are going
to be in the devices and youcan have a light above them and
when they die the light goes red, or something Like in Ready
Player One, the IO guys are inthe huge plate for the play VR.
You can do something like that.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Very cool.
I find it fascinating that, uh,you're, you're taking, you know
, vr, which we've been talkingabout, which has a significant
nausea problem, like we've beensaying, and this yacht, e-sport,
which is where we getseasickness from, and so I'm
(42:33):
immensely curious if you're ableto solve both of these things
at the same time.
So it's almost like nausea ontop of nausea and you're going
to, like you know, kill them allin one fell swoop.
So it's, it's almost like it'seither going to be constructive
interference, and everyone'sgoing to get sick after 50
seconds, or destructiveinterference, and everyone's
(42:54):
going to be blowing their mindsout, and it it's going to be
perfectly fine.
So that's very exciting.
I like that.
You know that kind ofcombination that you guys are
going for right now.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Yeah, you know what I dream of sometimes.
I imagine a huge arena and ahundred of the devices in there,
literally stacked like this,and a hundred people in them
competing in a what's it calledLike PUBG.
What's it called?
Um uh like pubg.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
What's it?
Speaker 3 (43:22):
called the battle arena, the, the, where they all
shoot each other one, then oneperson is the winner, the.
I literally it escapes me the,the type of the game, like pubg,
basically.
So just imagine them playingpubg or whatever.
Your preferred game is Apex orwhatever, so something like that
but it's literally a hundred ofthem and they're all fighting
each other and we have lightsunder them so you can see who's
(43:44):
live, who's dead or whatever.
It can look really good, it canlook sick.
That's one of the dreams I havea vision.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
I'd like to see it happen.
Virtual reality, hunger Games,I think, is what you're going
for at this point in time, kindof like that yeah, this is cool
stuff, very, very cool stuff.
Anything else in terms of whatyou want to talk about, either
about Neurosync or anyparticulars of the problem or
the solution that we didn't geta chance to cover?
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Yes.
So let me just think.
So basically, the to put tokind of summarize everything the
device.
It's not going to be foreveryone, so I'm just putting
out there.
We would hate for someone to begoing out there on the
indiegogo or the r e store shopor whatever, later buying it and
then realizing it's not forthem.
Think about the games thatyou're playing.
(44:33):
Think about the games that youwant to see.
If there are some of thosegames that you love on flat,
flat skin but you'd love to beplayed in VR, look it up.
It might be possible to play itin VR.
There's mods for a lot of thepopular games.
Just try, try to find and seewhere it works with our device.
It's going to be the best wayto play these wallet games
period, because of the nauseareduction, because of the
(44:54):
content, that you're actuallythe games that you're playing.
They're the games you mightactually really want to play.
They're not like a indie leveltech tech demo.
They're triple a titles, uh anduh.
Of course, if you get very sickfrom vr, I would suggest
strongly to try.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Try our device in a, in a place where you can try
before action and to be fairbased on what you have on the
website, because I fullyappreciate you saying it's not
for everyone, but some of thegames that I think you have on
there are pretty interesting,where it seems like you have a
battle mech type game.
For people who don't know,battle mechs are giant robots
(45:31):
that fight each other.
There's a flying game that youshowcase there where you're, you
know, like in the seat of acockpit going through, so you
know, just to talk your guys'sbook for a second, you know, in
terms of there there arecertainly popular avenues of
games for which it seems likeyour unit would be immensely
popular and very useful for forproviding a tremendous
(45:54):
experience.
So, and again, maybe I maybe I'munder representing the full set
of games that you should beconsidering, but I just wanted
to make sure we put that kind ofout there in terms of like the
the positive avenues to go downyeah, we, we know that vr is a
niche.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
Vr is a niche, right, and uh, we're not idiots.
We know that this is going tobe a micro-niche.
It's a niche of a niche.
It's a niche of input devicesfor VR locomotion.
That it's not going to be likea huge thing I'd love for it to
be but I realize that it's goingto be for people who are really
(46:33):
enthusiastic about trying outnew things in VR.
It's going to be about peoplewho really like tech.
It's going to be for people whoare really enthusiastic about
trying out new things in VR.
It's going to be about peoplewho really like tech.
It's going to be for people whowant to experience the games
they always wanted to try in VRin a much better way than
anything other that's available,like a keyboard or mouse or
whatever the normal gamepad.
It's going to be for thosepeople.
And, yeah, that's basically thedevice.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Well, I think what's nice is that the problem you're
tackling enables, basically, anexpansion of the market of VR,
where there's a set of peoplewho won't do VR because it just
makes them sick, and what's niceis that you're able to kind of
increase that audience by virtueof this augmentation at a
physiological level.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
Not going to be for everyone, but for the people
that it's going to be for,they're going to love it.
Just imagine, uh, normal peoplewho are not gamers but their
workplace now has them trainingin vr, whether it's a thing
where it's hard for them totrain by having them go out to
the like.
Let's say it's a hazardous area.
Let's say it's like an oil rigmodel or something you're not
going to be.
There might be I don't know howthey train them up, but there
(47:39):
might be sending people there.
It's going to be a lot easierfor these people to map out the
area, to learn it, to learn whattheir job is, how the place
looks like through VR.
And imagine if you're not agamer, you never use teleporting
around.
It's going to be uncomfortableWith our device.
(47:59):
With all the tests we've done.
We've tested thousands, we'vehad thousands of people in the
device.
More than 10,000 people havetried the device.
All people who struggle usinggamepads or whatever.
They do really good withC-Infinity A lot better than
you'd imagine, because they arelike a blank slate.
They don't compare it toanything else.
They don't compare it to a gamepeddler.
If for them, the the way youtell them it works.
(48:21):
They just kind of click with it.
So my mom, she's not a gamer,she doesn't play phone games,
she's completely not a gamer.
I had her, uh, while while gtawas available, the mod for gta.
It's not available anymore forgta 5 because of the take two.
They stood look, unfortunately,so he had to take it down the
mod.
That's a rare occurrence ofthat happening, really, but it
did.
That did happen with GTA, uh,actually with Rockstar games.
(48:44):
So you can't play Red DeadRedemption either by using the
look crosses mod.
There are other methods.
I'm just saying take two, don't, don't, don't sue me, but there
are other ways of doing it.
Uh, but, but I had my mom playGTA for like almost an hour.
She loved it and she wasn'tlike shooting people out of her,
she was just walking aroundexploring Los Santos.
She felt like she was there andthat's to me enough.
(49:07):
I know she doesn't use agamepad, she can't use a gamepad
, she tries.
It's not software, but with ourdevice it's that simple to move
around that it's very easy forpeople who are not gamers as
well, and there's going to bemore and more of these people in
VR due to their work, havingthem train or do their job in VR
.
That's all I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Rob, do you have any last questions that you want to
throw in there?
Speaker 2 (49:32):
No, I think that pretty much covers everything I
wanted to know about the device.
I look forward to trying oneIndeed.
Speaker 3 (49:40):
Yeah, so we will stay in touch.
I'll stay in touch.
I'll try to get a device closeto you so you can try it, or
I'll send it to you, orsomething like that, so you can
hear the sound.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
And Emanuele, if you need some folks basically to try
and solve some of yourcontroller issues, let us know.
You can hire us on we canfigure these things out.
Regardless, though, I just wantto say thank you so much.
This was fantastic in terms oftaking us through the problem.
What are some of the approachesand what you guys are doing
(50:10):
that's unique to really expandthis out, make it more
accessible, make it moreengaging, make it a lot more fun
?
So, nemanja, thank you so muchfor this.
Speaker 3 (50:20):
If you don't like it, that's totally fine.
You have all the other stuff inVR and you don't have to mess
around with this.
But if you like it, it's justmore stuff, more content, more
things to do in VR that areinnovated, not possible
otherwise.
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
All right.
Well, thank you so much and welook forward to maybe talking to
you again in the future to findout, you know, all the other
new incredible things that youguys are doing.
Speaker 3 (50:44):
Thank you.
Thank you.
I'd love to come back again andtell you all about it, for sure
.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Awesome, all right.
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