The Emperor Has No Clothes : Tech is Boring

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Hype is all around around the tech stories that are out there....

Apple has a terrible ad for a thinner iPad!
Google is leaving San Fran and moving jobs overseas!
Announcements around AI that is going to revolutionize everything!!!
Tech companies are acting like big corporations!!!

Maybe it is just us...but does anyone get the impression that tech news is actually a bit boring right now? 

Perhaps we are just exhausted from the constant barrage of "bigger", "smaller", "better", "faster", "newer", "revolutionary, "evolutionary", "different"...

But it does feel like a moment when tech is really trying to keep its whizz bang growth cycle going...and not start to admit that these companies, while still wildly profitably, are transforming into the value, blue chip stocks (oh, no, we're IBM!) who are trying to eek out more profit from ads on smart TVs rather than actually innovate.

Join us as we rant a little bit on the current state of affairs!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Ierengaym.

(00:03):
com ierengaym.
com

PJ McNerney's audio rec (00:10):
Welcome back to tricky bits with Rob and
PJ, you know, folks, Rob and Ilove to pick apart, talk about
some of the latest stuff that'sgoing on in tech today, but I'll
be honest, and maybe this isjust me.
I think a lot of the storiesthat are coming out are a bit
boring, and this might be anemperor has no clothes moment.

(00:36):
So many of the companies outthere are promoting products
that are great, they'reincremental improvements over
what we have already.
We have a lot of hype around afew technologies.
We have a lot of hype around,you know, companies leaving
places or laying off people.

(00:58):
And in many ways, when I stepback and think about it, either
in the moment or from ahistorical perspective, I kind
of think of it's more of thesame of what we've seen in the
In that way, I think it's kindof boring because so many things

(01:18):
we're seeing, we're like tryingto get excited about, we're
trying to get hyped up about it.
So this episode, which might bea little bit on the ranty side,
is Rob and I digging into a fewof these stories that have been
coming out.
These things that are happeningin the media today.
And really trying to discusswhether or not there's anything

(01:40):
real, or if it's just more ofthe same.
So, we hope you have fun withit.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (01:47):
I've been thinking a lot about the
tech news that's out there, andI don't know if you feel this
way, but I feel like it's kindof boring.
Thinking about kind of thestories that have been happening
the last couple of weeks.
The Apple iPad event, I thinkwas fine.
The iPad's thin.
People lost their minds over thead.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (02:05):
Oh

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (02:05):
They did a mea culpa.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (02:06):
the ad was, I don't know,

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (02:09):
It was,

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (02:10):
was typical Apple being look at us
but they, they did kind of crushthe whole of human artistic,

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (02:17):
Oh, it's a, it's pretty tasteless.
Uh,

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (02:20):
in one giant hydraulic press.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (02:23):
yeah, it's, it's a tasteless ad, but
you know, the, the sort ofreframe, cause I was thinking a
lot about it is why is the adright now, or has been more
important than kind of talkingabout the actual technology that
was Announced there.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (02:41):
is bullshit.
There's

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (02:42):
I know.
And that's the,

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (02:44):
to

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (02:45):
this is the problem.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (02:46):
the problem.
Why so thin?
It's like, if they'd have madeit 0.
1 millimeters thicker, theycould have doubled the battery
capacity.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (02:54):
Right.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (02:55):
a good marketing spec.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (02:56):
Right.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (02:57):
No one needs a longer battery.
It already lasts ungodly amountof time, but 24 hour battery
life would have been somethingthat's holy crap.
That's really good for 0.
1 millimeter thick.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (03:08):
Yeah.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (03:09):
It's like, why, why this incessant
shrinking to make it so thinthat it basically at some point
going to bend one enough.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (03:16):
Right.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (03:17):
And

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (03:18):
could do it now.
Right.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (03:23):
that strong.
It's only half of 75 millimetersthick, half a centimeter thick,
uh, which is what?
Eighth of an inch, a little bitover an eighth of an inch.
And for, for non metric people,it's, uh, it's ridiculous.
And has to have a name.
I've like, Twinner OLEDs is nowTandem LEDs.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (03:44):
Yep.
Yeah.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100 (03:45):
everything have to get its own name?
It's, it's just call it what itis.
Call it what the trade calls it.
Calls it what, call it whateverybody else calls it.
So it's comparable in terms.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (03:55):
Yes.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (03:56):
Uh, so that why the M4 in an iPad, why
is use the iPad as a launchplatform?
It's a consumption device.
It will never be.
Having Logic Pro and Final CutPro as, look, we have
professional grade apps on this.
Just go jump off a cliff.
No one's going to use an iPad todo any real production with your
limited storage, your limitedconnectivity, your limited
networking options, et cetera,et cetera, et cetera.

(04:19):
There's only one type C port.
It's never going to get used.
Maybe on the field, you could dosome quick edit, but you're not
going to be, using it as a, uh,a full on editing suite when you
have a studio to do that in.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (04:32):
Yeah.
I, I, I think that the, the Mfour being in there.
I mean, the story really isreally about the TSMC production
lines.
Right.
I mean, they had like the Mthree.
Process, which have I've,everything I've read was that
that was a dead end that theydecided they were going to
abandon, but they had tocontinue it to get the M three

(04:53):
out for Apple.
And so the switch to the M fouris basically to get everybody
onto the new process, which iswhy this is a disjoint place to
be putting the M four, but itsort of makes sense to kind of
clean up, you know, the M threedead end.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (05:09):
Yeah, there are definitely some
benefits to having the M4 in amobile device for sure, but it
still seems like a, a weirdplatform to be using to announce
the M4.
It,

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (05:22):
Oh, a hundred percent.
It was a hundred percent weird.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (05:26):
whole presentation could have been six
minutes if it took all the fluffout and all the stupid fucking
animations.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (05:32):
One of the, one of the things I was
looking up, because I thoughtthis was a, a like questionable
decision on their part was theymentioned being able to run, you
know, I think it was Octane onthe M4 and have it run really
fast.
And my initial thought was, canyou run Octane on an iPad?
Cause otherwise this is just apreview and it turns out you

(05:53):
can, there is an app for it.
I didn't realize that until

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (05:57):
do it, are you?
Why

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (05:58):
no, you're not

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (05:59):
sitting in the corner over there in a
monster

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (06:01):
correct.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (06:03):
Again, yes, you can, but you could do a
lot of things you probably don'twant to do, or will regret, of
like, I have a, giant PC with acouple of 4090s in it, and a
monster power supply.
Oh, yeah, it takes a lot ofpower.
But if, again,

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (06:16):
cares?

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (06:16):
who cares if it's production?
It's the same argument as Opensource versus Photoshop.
Yeah.
And

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (06:23):
Yes.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (06:23):
before.
Photoshop sucks.
It's expensive.
The whole Adobe licensing modelis broken.
Blah, blah, blah.
Keep going, keep going.
You can shoot it down as much asyou want.
But if I need to make money, ifmy client is expecting a
Photoshop file, I have to givethem a Photoshop file.
Using some open source package,which half ass supports

(06:44):
Photoshop, makes them do morework.
You're now not a good partnerfor them.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (06:48):
Yep.
Yeah.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (06:50):
some point, throw your religion out
the window and use what theindustry uses.
And all the big apps got therethis way,

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (06:55):
Yeah.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (06:56):
no matter what it is.
it's the thing you have to do.
And if I have to rendersomething in Octane.
Why would I even start on aniPad?
I'm not going to be on a traingoing, Oh, well, look, I'll,
I'll, uh, make some new

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (07:08):
Oh, yeah.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (07:10):
or some new architectural walkthrough
while I'm on the train, it'slike, I'm going to be at my desk
doing things for real clients ona

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (07:17):
Right.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (07:17):
of hardware.
And unfortunately, when it comesto high end graphics, Apple are
always going to be playing catchup.
They can put as many marketingstats as they want in them
videos.
The point is, is yes.
Instantaneous speed isn'tsustained speed.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (07:31):
Right.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (07:31):
Yeah.
And lot of these.
Devices look at, say aPlayStation five, that's a
device that's made to sustainfull power indefinitely.
Yeah.
It, when it's idle, sure.
It takes a little tiny amountsof power because it's everything
to scale back.
So it can power throttle, but itcan't in a game.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (07:49):
Right.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (07:50):
their story isn't the end user's story
is Apple's problem.
They're like, Oh, we have thisamazing performance, but only
when we want to give it to you.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (07:58):
Mm hmm.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (07:59):
we decide it can do this for
whatever reasons, we're notgoing to tell you what those
reasons are, by the way.
Yes, you get these instantaneousspikes in performance, which do
look impressive, but now let medo that continuously.
And

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (08:11):
Yeah.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (08:11):
it soon.
Thermally throttles on Apple'stakes over because their story
is battery life is moreimportant than everything.
Their story is form factors,more important than everything.
M4 with the giant heatsink on itwould be a better M4.
No questions asked, but wherewould they put that giant
heatsink?
And no matter, no amount ofengineering can ultimately get

(08:31):
around.
laws of thermodynamics at somepoint, things are gonna get
warm.
And they also miss stupid thingslike on the MacBook air, people
got it to run the same speed asthe MacBook pro by simply
putting a heat pad between theprocessor and the case.
So it used the case as a full onheatsink.
And because it has no thermal,it has basically no thermals at
all, but

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (08:52):
Oh my God.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (08:53):
heat pad between the processor and
the case, allow the case to actas a massive heat sink and the
process doesn't get hot inrooms.
Therefore it runs faster.
Um, it's things like that where.
In the real world, that's nottolerable.
In the real world, I need thisthing to work.
Apple could never be missioncritical because Apple's story
would take over at some point.
No, no, no.

(09:13):
Don't worry about landing yourairplane.
We're getting warm.
We've got to slow this thingdown.
Same as the Apple Watch, as I'vebitched on a thousand times
before.
Why can't I have the stopwatchon?
I mean, I always bitch about myskydiving app, which you can't

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (09:25):
Yeah.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (09:26):
but it's even worse than that.
You can't keep the stopwatch isjust a normal app.
So if you want to time somethingon your stopwatch, okay, for a
minute, it's fine.
And then it'll basically returnto clock after some amount of
time.
And now I can't stop thestopwatch without going through
the app list to find the damnstopwatch.

(09:47):
So, oh yeah, it's like in theirmental use case, that's fine.
But most people who want to usea stopwatch, they need to be
able to start and stop it.
A 1975 Casio watch can stay onthe stopwatch.
For as long as you like and showyou the lifetime.
It's not going to update onceper second.
It's not going to get

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (10:05):
Right.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (10:06):
It's just going to, do you want to
stop watching?
There's a stop.
It's like with the kind ofmarketed is changing the thought
process of what we actually needand what we want to use.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (10:15):
Correct me if I'm wrong.
They've decided they're going tooptimize, as you said, on three
factors.
One is form factor.
Two is thermals.
Three is battery life.
And that's it, right?
I mean,

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (10:27):
right?
I mean, the last two are kind ofthe same thing.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (10:31):
well, I guess, I mean, there's, I mean,
here's the thing.
It's like,

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (10:35):
Like if you ran the iPad flat out with a
massive heatsink on it, youwould get awful battery life.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (10:40):
you, you would, but I'm, I'm thinking of
the case you just mentioned ofthe iPad, where I, not the iPad,
the, the, uh, the MacBook Air,where I could have it plugged
into the wall.
And I could like, I'm not, Idon't care about battery life at
that point in time.
I just want you to run as fastas possible.
And it will run into the thermalproblem separately.
So that's why I, I mean, I hearwhat you're saying.

(11:02):
Like they're, they're highlycoupled, but I can tease them
out in the case of a laptop,which is one of the majority use
cases for Apple.
So would this, would thispresume then that I could go
nuts with a studio or a pro, Imean, forget the laptops, forget
the iPads for a second.
Like, if not, then are we stillstuck kind of into the same old

(11:26):
pattern?
I mean, in theory, I should beable to put whatever fucking
heatsink I want into thosethings, right?
I mean, I can't, but Appleshould be able to.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (11:32):
Yeah.
It's just, I don't know.
The whole thing is just bad.
It's

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (11:36):
So,

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (11:36):
being like,

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (11:38):
I,

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (11:38):
carve that a little niche for them.
The point is, they're building ahouse of carves because that
niche gets nichier and nichier.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (11:43):
yeah.
I think they're tryingdesperately to pop the iPad out
of its consumer side, and yousaw that in the event.
Of saying, Hey, there are theseprosumer enterprise esque cases
that you can use this for.
And we'll sort of like piggybackon the M four for this.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (12:02):
Point is, why can't I just take my
MacBook?
It's a laptop.
Anywhere I could use a giantiPad, I can also

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (12:08):
yeah,

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (12:08):
and it doesn't run, it only runs iOS,
it doesn't run OS X.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (12:12):
right, right.
So

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (12:14):
OSX touch compatible and made iPads
have the option to run eitherone.
I think you'd see a massiveswitch to people using, OSX on
an iPad.
And then it becomes more useful,

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (12:24):
it would,

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (12:25):
control too.
But don't forget, uh, OSX canalso run iOS apps.
So they're not

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (12:29):
yeah.

rob_1_05-14-2024_1007 (12:30):
anything.
They only gaining things.
And again, it's, it's marketsegmentation by force.
If they give us a free market.
People will decide what to usethat

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (12:39):
Correct.

rob_1_05-14-2024_10074 (12:39):
wouldn't be what Apple's pushing.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (12:42):
I think Apple doesn't want to admit
that, hey, the sort oftouchscreen iPad should be
something available like on yourlaptop.
I should be able to touch thescreen and be able to do
whatever the heck I want, drawon it, but they don't want to
effectively like, Give up thesort of philosophical notion
that yeah, Microsoft had thisright with their tablet where I

(13:04):
could have it as a, as a laptop,or I could flip it around and
draw on it.
Like, I think they, they havelost that capability of being
able to cannibalize themselveslike they had to cannibalize
themselves with the iPod whenthey brought out the iPhone that
was necessary and I don't thinkthey can do that now.
And if they feel sort of stuckin these lanes, one thing that

(13:27):
could have been cool, and again,I, I still kind of put this
under the, I feel like it'sstill under the boring stories
is like they, they kind of liketiptoe up to the line,, for the
AI side of things for the,what's going on with the neural
engine, but we don't actuallysee anything popping out.
We're also seeing this duke outwith regards to open AI and

(13:48):
Google at this point in time.
Yeah.
But I don't think we've actuallyshowcased how it's going to
change how anyone actually worksyet.
We're still in this hype cycleabout AI and I think it's
getting a little bit tiring.
I'm not sure if that's, if youhave that feeling.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (14:04):
just the thing.
I think it's being forced on us

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (14:07):
Yeah.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (14:07):
I don't want any of this stuff.
It's like, I don't really useSiri for what it is today.
Uh, I use it for like, Oh, playmusic.
And she typically playssomething I don't want.
And sometimes I'll set an alarmwith it.
So Siri is definitely needs anupgrade.
I'll give you that.
But I don't want this forced AIchatbot us.
That's gonna be equallyfrustrating.

(14:30):
And I think, I think aseverybody's doing it, like
everybody is now just forcingai, it's like, oh, it's ai.
It's ai.
It's ai, it's everywhere.
It's like, how about none of it?
Yep.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (14:39):
that's the thing is that the only, the
only use cases I have found forit that are I wouldn't even say
interesting, they're just funfor me is I like turning my
photos into anime photos.
And I know that they've trainedthat with stable diffusion or
something in the background toactually do that.
Like, Oh, that's fun.
That's cool.
It's not going to change mylife.

(15:00):
there's some fun videos I'veseen on YouTube where they're
like re imagining what wouldStar Wars look like in the 1950s
or the matrix or, you know, thefifth element or Superman.
And it's fun.
It's fun, but it hasn't, ithasn't justified in my mind, the
amount of money that is goinginto.
The startups.
Um, and even to a certainextent, the amount of money

(15:22):
that's going into NVIDIAultimately for purchasing
hardware, because really allthat money that's going into
startups is going effectivelystraight through to either
NVIDIA directly to purchase awhole bunch of, H one hundreds
or, or whatever, or they'repaying a cloud provider who
already has those, uh, thoseunits in place.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (15:44):
I go speak of the cloud.
Apple have, well, people respectthat they're using their own
hardware in the cloud and notbuying Nvidia hardware, which

pj_1_05-14-2024_1007 (15:52):
Seriously.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (15:53):
we had the other week.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (15:54):
Huh?
That is interesting.
So you think that they've builta whole slew of, I don't know,
there's M series processors thatare just beefed up with, without
the thermal limitations andthat's running the neural
engines there.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (16:10):
idea and they're not talking openly
about it, but it, it seems to bethat's what's, uh,

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (16:16):
That's the rumor.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (16:17):
yeah.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (16:18):
Huh.
So yeah, I, I don't know, man,like you and I have, I think
I've attempted to use AI and Iknow we've talked about doing an
upcoming episode on like, is itactually like matter to us?
And I, I find it a little bithard to actually integrate it
into my life in a meaningfulway.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (16:35):
I think it has its places, but it's,
it's all very, uh, it's allvery, it's kind of
uncontrollable.
It's like, yeah, when it works,it works.
But when it don't work, it'slike, eh.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (16:46):
Yeah.
I feel it's very speculative.
Yeah,

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (16:52):
still problematic.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (16:54):
yes.
Context isn't there.
And I feel like the use casesare, are still kind of.
nebulous.
You know, you hear about straystories where it's like
replacing people in callcenters.
It's like, okay, I could kind ofsee that I could see it kind of
driving kind of these chat bots,like when I'm trying to cancel
Comcast.

(17:14):
Although even in that case, Iultimately have to make a call
to get into a queue to talk toan agent to cancel Comcast at my
old house.
So

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (17:24):
Yeah.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (17:24):
AI has not solved that problem.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (17:26):
it's not, you can sign up with a
bolt, but you can't cancel witha bolt.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (17:30):
Correct?
Correct.
It's always a bit like a pain inthe ass to actually do the
cancel side.
And I get it.
They're, they're trying to makeit that way.
On other boring tech news, and Irealize it's a weird, a weird
way to kind of frame it, uh,there was a story that came, I
missed it until Jen pointed itout to me the other, like last
night.
Um, Google's leaving one of itsbuildings in San Francisco

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (17:52):
Wow.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (17:54):
it, yeah.
And the, the line that they useis basically kind of funny to me
because they're saying we'refocused on investing in real
estate efficiently.
to meet the current and futureneeds of our hybrid workforce.
And there's two, there'smultiple reasons why this is
funny to me.
One is that the San Franciscooffice for Google used to be the
most crowded office.

(18:15):
Like people talked about,everyone wanted to be in San
Francisco because a lot ofpeople lived in San Francisco
and they wanted their commutesto be easy.
they didn't want to have to goall the way down to Mountain
View from San Francisco, whichwould really suck.
it used to be like incrediblylike.
Like coveted space.
The other bit though, that'sfunny to me is that Google once

(18:37):
was very laissez faire about itsreturn to office policy.
And it got way more intenseabout its return to office
policy, even trying to getpeople who went fully remote to
come back in.
And the final reason why thistickles me a little bit is that

(18:58):
if you look on LinkedIn, there'sactually lots of jobs that
Google is posting despite allits layoffs.
But where is it posting thosejobs?
Lower cost regions.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (19:09):
Yeah, of course.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (19:10):
if you, if you want to be in Mumbai,
awesome.
We've got a ton of jobs therefor you in Google or Mexico or
basically someplace else otherthan the U S what's funny me
though, Rob is I kind ofquestion, is this even a real
story?
Because like, it's only a story.
If you like, think of big techas being some aberration,

(19:35):
instead of like, this is justtypical company behavior, like,
if you sort of accept the factthat, hey, this is what big
companies do, it should be asurprise to nobody.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (19:46):
Yeah, it is.
And, but ultimately they are,pandering to their shareholders.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (19:54):
But again, like that is, that is
like what, like these, what bigcompanies do, like they
ultimately basically defaultback to this notion, not of
like, you and I have talkedabout many times before, Hey,
we're a family, not of like, Oh,we're looking to do all this
innovation.
It's like, Hey, how are wemaximizing profits for our

(20:14):
shareholders?

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (20:15):
Yep.
That's

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (20:16):
And that's what it is.
And it's like, It's onlyshocking to people, I think, if
you've had some kind of visionof like, Oh, Google's going to
be different or all of bigtech's going to be different and
it'll somehow grow forever.
The money will keep flowingforever and it'll never change.
And we know that's bullshit.

rob_1_05-14-2024_10074 (20:37):
Couldn't agree more.
And I think it is.
I think they're having that,that realization that the money
is drying up or at leastinfinite growth of money's
drying up.
They still have a crap ton ofmoney.
I mean, that's

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (20:47):
Oh yeah.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (20:48):
not reducing except that this 10
percent growth per year.
But it makes you think of allthese MBAs that they hired to
run the business.
Blah, blah, blah.
Does nobody realize that 10percent growth for years is not
sustainable for more than adecade or so?
There's

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (21:02):
Well, I mean,

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (21:03):
on the wall when you started.
It's not like the writingappeared later.
It's like, oh crap, we've got tochange course.
It's just, they got so intothemselves of,

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (21:12):
yeah.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (21:12):
grow, grow, grow, fund this, fund
that, blah, blah, blah.
Oh, we've, we've, this 10percent growth is not there
anymore.
we're spending

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (21:19):
was, it was 20 percent growth.
It was like, it was like 20percent year over year growth
for a very, for decades.
I mean, it was huge and insane.
And yeah, you're right.
How did no, like no one say thiscan't last forever.
And the reality is this is that,you know, Google and honestly,
like Facebook fits into thiscategory as well.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (21:41):
Well Facebook just ran out of people.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (21:44):
Did, but it's still posting incredible
revenue numbers.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (21:48):
Oh, yeah.
I mean the numbers are great,but the

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (21:50):
Yeah.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (21:50):
they uh, They are kind of admitted
like yeah, our growth con is notsustainable because we need more
people

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (21:57):
Right.
Right.
And that's actually one of thereasons why they, I think
they're stopping reporting ofuser growth and instead focusing
on revenue growth.
So focusing on how much moneyper person.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (22:08):
for sure.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (22:09):
Correct.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (22:10):
don't uh, They just don't have many
ways to grow anymore

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (22:15):
Right.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (22:16):
people on the planet.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (22:17):
And, you know, this connects to the
layoff stuff we talked abouteons ago too.
But I think there's a realitythat the Difficult problem that
I think Facebook and Google areencountering, and I say
difficult somewhat tongue incheek because, you know, it's a
problem of success, is that youeventually go from being a

(22:40):
growth company to a valuecompany.
Like, even if they didn't growanymore, they're still kicking
off incredible amounts of money.
It's just that their stockvaluation probably would no
longer be recognized as beinggrowth.
It'd be recognized as value.
And so your, your price toearnings multiple would

(23:02):
effectively half at the veryleast at that point in time.
So you can, if you can basicallysay, Oh, you're a value company,
then you probably deservesomething around the 15 to one
range rather than the 30 to onerange,

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (23:14):
Mm hmm

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (23:15):
which means that your stock price
drops by 50%, like right off thebat of that realization.
So I think these guys arefighting as hard as possible
tooth and nail to try and staveoff that day as much as
possible.
But the reality is they'rebecoming IBM

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (23:33):
All

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (23:33):
or they became IBM.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (23:35):
I mean Well, they're all, all the
become as a fight in becomingIBM.
It's kind of just a life cycle.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (23:41):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
I mean, and again, like one ofthe ways they're fighting it is
part of the road to gettingthere, which is all these
layoffs they've laid off tons ofpeople basically to try and
reduce these costs andeffectively increase profits.

(24:01):
But it takes you down the roadto becoming one of these value
companies.
Cause.
You're focusing in on preservingyour PNL and the growth of that
PNL.
You're not focusing on creatingnew products and that's okay.

(24:21):
That's okay, but it's reallyjust about having that maturity
to admit that's where you're at,rather than go through a near
death spiral that IBM did.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (24:30):
It's true.
And I don't know what they'll doabout it, but you sent a link
out earlier.
That was, uh, pulling away fromthings that it shouldn't be
doing.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (24:40):
I did.
I did.
So, uh, to baseline this for theaudience, there's a project
called, I think it was likeStarline was the name of it?
yeah, Project Starline, whichis, it's, it's really meant to
be a better video conferencingsolution.
So instead of this.
Standard camera that we use,even if we're using something

(25:01):
more fun, like a, a, uh, aniPhone as our camera, there's a
lot that's missing in there.
And so like just doing kind of abackground blur is not quite
enough.
So project starline is neat.
I mean, they brought together awhole lot of rendering
engineers.
That, you know, determines likea wireframe, determines textures

(25:23):
in real time, like determineslike lots of like cool ambient
lighting stuff to make theexperience more real.
So they have like this beefy setof cameras atop a monitor and
then do some real time renderingto make a more realistic
interaction when you're doingvideo conferencing.

(25:44):
Now, a classic Google move, andyou, you saw this in the
Jamboard product, is Googlewould put out a piece of
hardware that it had no right orreason to do so, and then it
would deprecate it.
like each Jamboard was a monitorthat could draw on like a
whiteboard.
Each one was 5, 000 bucks.

(26:05):
And now that product isdeprecated.
Starline, they did anintelligent thing.
They decided to partner with HPwho's got a lot of experience in
the video conferencing space,especially the professional
video conferencing space., weactually at DreamWorks partner
with them for our videoconferencing solutions back in

(26:27):
the, uh, mid two thousandsbasically.
Um, so HP is going to be the onethat actually brings this
product to bear.
So I think this is actually asmart move on Google's part.
To at least not try to do itthemselves, but then also, like,
partner with someone who hasexperience in hardware to bring

(26:50):
this to market.
Will it succeed?
I don't know.
Like, I don't know if it's like,again, kind of a, an overly
expensive whiteboard, but atleast Google is trying to not,
like, do its traditional thing.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (27:02):
Yeah, I think, I think the whole
deprecation of products that youown is something we should talk
about on a separate podcastbecause it goes across the gamut
of even from video games to likesecurity cameras to enterprise
pieces of hardware.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (27:16):
And I think this gets to the general
shittiness that we're talkingabout, which is that, you know,
whether it's like thinner iPadsor, Hey, we're going to try and
put smarter stuff in your TV soyou can give us back data so we
can train our AI so we can sellyou more ads.
Like where the fuck is theinnovation?
Where's the fun?

(27:36):
Where's the joy in this anymore?
It all feels like, it's justlike.
Like, everyone's like, grindingat the nub to like, try and eek
out a little bit more data,money, like, from whatever
sources they've been doing itfor eons at this point in time.
Like, we're not getting anythingnew out of it, we're just

(27:57):
getting shittier.

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (27:58):
Yeah, it's true.
I mean, that's all it is.
It's like, it's theenshitification of everything.

pj_1_05-14-2024_100748 (28:02):
I know, this wasn't the way it was
supposed to be.
I

rob_1_05-14-2024_100748 (28:11):
And it's a slippery slope.
Yeah.
No one's taken a huge step fromfive years ago to today.
It's a little bit, a little bit,a little bit.
It's only when you look back andthink, Oh, that's where we came
from.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (28:24):
I think we're back in this overall race
to the bottom.
We're seeing it across multiplesegments at this point in time.
And I, again, like one of the,one of the sort of stories that
I think is a, a, a non story.
And I, this is going to soundheartless from my perspective,
but, you know, layoffs havecontinued.

(28:46):
Tesla had a lot of layoffs.
I think they laid off about 10%.
Video game companies are stilllaying people off but we
predicted this basically 4months ago that this is going to
be continuing.
So the.
The crappiness basically istaking, you know, it's across
the board still.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (29:04):
the layoffs though, it is that just
short sightedness at this point,or is it actual bloat from
overhiring during COVID times?
It's, we're a long way fromCOVID times.
We keep saying COVID times, butit's years ago,

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (29:18):
I think covet is, uh, I think it's a red
herring.
Right at this point in time, Ithink this is.
I think this is.
Uh, it's a combination of, ofboth of what you just said,
which is there was over hiringbefore coven people.
Basically, we're not beingmaximized for their jobs and

(29:42):
people weren't being maximizedfor their skills.
It was a lot of empire building.
We've talked about this in thepast where, you know, if you had
a huge set of head count, thatwas an indication that you were
important and you could getpromoted to your director level,
senior director, VP, SVP, whathave you.
And that, that basically isreally just the bloat that's

(30:03):
there.
And you notice there's not awhole lot of SVPs being laid off
from these, these companies.
The other side of it is shortsightedness, and it's, it's
interesting because I've chattedwith people that say that there
is a lot of interest in, youknow, the, the revenue market
that's out there for video gamesis still huge.
It's predicted to be somethingin like the 400 billion range, I

(30:26):
believe.
In this year, so the idea that alot of these video game
companies are shrinking down,closing up either is an
indication that, hey, like thoseprojects they've been working
on, like, we don't think isgoing to fly, um, or they think

(30:47):
that, oh, we're just going to,like, put ourselves behind
whatever our big titles aregoing to be and just, like, take
it for granted that that's justgoing to work.
So I think a lot of talent hasbeen kicked out into the
marketplace across the board.
with this background fear thatsomehow AI is actually going to
make everybody a 10x programmerand therefore you need, you

(31:10):
know, one 10th the number ofprogrammers, assuming you're
going for the same value, whichas we talked about earlier,
that's what a lot of thesecompanies are going after,
whether it's Google or Facebook,like

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (31:20):
but it's going to be bland.
You're going to lose all thathuman creativity.
It's

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (31:24):
hundred percent.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (31:25):
I get a programmer with AI is better
than a programmer without AI,but It's not going to be the
same result.
And I think

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (31:32):
Yeah.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (31:33):
that out at some point.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (31:35):
Uh, here's where I'll counter with
that.
No, I think what will happen isthat The companies that are
basically trending towards bluechip companies, bland is fine.
Bland is great.
Bland basically is costeffective.
And these are not companies thatare still in their growth,
growth phases.

(31:56):
They're ultimately trendingtowards value their value, their
blue chip.
That's where they're going.
I think basically though it, itopens the doorway for something
to be innovative, to be notbland.
Um, and I, I think this iswhere, like, the startups
basically get to have a lot ofreally angry people who got laid

(32:18):
off from their jobs, who want todo something innovative to
actually go and do somethinginnovative.
I don't expect it from the bigguys.
I just don't like if, if reallywhat we're saying is that Apple,
which is one of the most laudedcompanies for being innovative.
Give me a pause here for asecond, Rob, but like, if what

(32:39):
they are able to say is, youknow, response to their
tasteless commercial aside iswe're able to shrink the iPad by
0.
1 millimeters or whatever thehell it is.
That's really bland already.
Like we're, we've hit blandness,like, like it's, it's, and in

(33:00):
some sense, it's really fine.
It just means that there's anopening for everyone else now.
To be not bland.
It means everyone else can dosomething that's interesting.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (33:10):
Yeah, I'll take that, but it's still

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (33:16):
Yeah.
I don't want to take anythingaway from, you know, you know,
the, the layoffs basicallyhappening or wrecking people's
lives.
This is real damage that's beingdone.
And I fully hold the big techcompanies accountable for this.
Like they created false promisesfor people over decades.

(33:36):
We're a family, the money willlast forever.
They created entitlementculture.
They created promotion culture.
They focused on all thesethings, believing they were
above it all.
And again, the story gets boringat the end, which is that, Oh,
we're going to go back to theold tried and true methods,
let's ship jobs overseas.

(33:57):
Let's lay off people that aremore expensive.
Let's utilize, you know, let'sutilize AI to like shrink how
many human personnel we need.
And again, I'm not even, it justis what it is.
Like this is what they chose todo and it's fine.
I give them sort of no moralhigh ground though.

(34:20):
Like they can't claim to be likethese companies that were
different.
They're just the same aseverybody else.
And it was,

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (34:28):
I mean, they were different for a little
bit,

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (34:31):
they were different when the money
was good, but my, I don't know,my contention always was that
when the money's good and freeThat's what Bell Labs was, like,
you know, like how many more,how many more projects can you
name beyond C that made it outof Bell Labs?

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (34:50):
the transistor.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (34:51):
Okay, I'll grant you that one.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (34:53):
there's a law that came out of Bell
Labs.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (34:55):
Um, okay.
So the transistor in C but liketowards the end, can you like, I
can't, it's hard for me to thinkof anything.
I know they did like a lot offormant stuff or like sound and
analysis, but it's hard for meto think of a lot of commercial
products that came out towardsthe end.
And again, it's like, this wasfree flowing money that like
came their way by virtue of thefact that Ma Bell was a giant

(35:16):
monopoly.,, These companiesbeing different were only
different because economicallythey could cast off enough money
that they could pretend to bedifferent for years, for
decades.
And now, they're just boring.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (35:28):
Yep.
It is true.
That is definitely true.
I certainly over big tech.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (35:34):
Yeah.
And it's now like the, the, the,opportunity for everybody else,
basically, to take thatinnovation, take that anger,
take that opportunity to dosomething better.
Don't make shitty TVs thatinsert ads over HDMI, you know,

(35:55):
make a device that's actuallyuseful.

rob_2_05-14-2024_11 (35:57):
innovation.
The actual, the, the innovationwe want is dead.
The innovation they want, thethings that they say, Oh, it's
innovative.
It's this it's because it'sbenefiting them.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (36:07):
Yeah,

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (36:08):
And the more it benefits them, the more
we are the product.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (36:11):
a hundred percent.
I think the innovation is deadat those companies.
I don't think, I think theopportunity is not dead for
everybody else.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (36:21):
true.
But that's what they callinnovation.
Yes.
Samsung's innovation is makingshittier TVs from our point of
view, but benefit them in.
some way because it benefitstheir bottom line.
It benefits their shareholders.
Someone just needs

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (36:32):
Yeah.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (36:33):
back and be like, that, that, that
way's broken.
And until somebody does, we'restuck with what we have.
It's the innovation is notinnovation we want.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (36:41):
The innovation that we're getting
basically is all about drivingthese profits, driving the
bottom line.
And the, the sad thing is likethe pendulum swung so hard
because we went from a worldwhere it was like, let's create
innovation without.
Economic underpinnings to onlygo towards innovation that

(37:04):
drives some kind of economicengine and that pendulum swung
so hard because the expectationsof growth for these companies
were so high if they had donethe groundwork in the beginning
of trying to create economicmodels that were actually
sustainable.
Then we could have an enginethat is actually laying golden
eggs where it's like, Hey, wedon't need to mind your data.

(37:26):
Maybe you're paying asubscription for maps at this
point in time.
But we can create something sothat we're providing value in
exchange for value.
And because no one did that, itwas like, let's just make
everything free.
Let's make it a free for alllike we end up in the
enshitification of tech.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (37:45):
Yep.
Don't have much to add to that.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (37:46):
Then we have to go, let's go break all
these economics models now, Rob.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (37:49):
I think the mass majority of people
don't want to break thesemodels.
I think they want the cheapproducts and are willing to give
up the data.
And it's only when you realizethat a little bit here, a little
bit there, a little bit thereindividually don't mean much,
but when it's everywhere and youadd them all up, it becomes a
huge amount.
It's like a subscription.
Yeah.
It's.

(38:11):
It's five bucks here, eightdollars there, twelve dollars
there.
Individually, no one cares, it'sthe cost of a beer.
But you add them up, and yourealize how many you have, and
the ones you forgot about, blahblah blah, and it's hundreds of
dollars a month that you'respending on subscriptions, like
you don't really use.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (38:28):
I mean, that's especially true of a lot
of these like streaming servicesat this point in time.
It's funny when you, when youtalk about, Hey, give this up,
you give that up.
I'm reminded of the Ben Franklinquote, which he had said
something along the lines of,you know, those who are willing
to give up their freedom.
Yeah.
For security are deserving ofneither something along those

(38:48):
lines.
And in this case, basically whatwe're talking about is like
giving up our privacy.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (38:52):
It's the same thing, yeah.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (38:54):
I have this, this potential thesis
basically is that in this, youknow, drive towards ads in this
drive towards an exchange ofTime for, free content, quote
unquote, free content.
We've effectively devalued ourown time.
We've basically said that, Oh,I'll, you know, I don't mind

(39:16):
giving up this, you know, bit ofmy time in order to get
something free, we'veincreasingly effectively said
our time is worthless.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (39:28):
And our data's worthless, our info is
worthless, because we'll give itto anybody for anything if it's
cheap enough.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (39:34):
Right.
Right.
Like we just don't care.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (39:42):
And it's been, like I said, it's
been step by step by step,little tiny steps here and
there.
I think people are starting towake up that their data is
valuable, but we have a long wayto go to, uh, make people
realize what they're actuallygiving up.
And people always, a goodexample is people always suspect

(40:03):
that Facebook is, listening toyou because you have a
conversation about somethingsomewhere and then it gives you
ads.
And the point is, is you'vespilled so much information.
They don't even need to listento you.
It's, it would be more expensivethan them to actually listen on
your microphone on your phoneand avoid all the Apple stuff

(40:24):
and the Google stuff thatindicates the microphone is
being used, blah, blah, blah.
Uploading all that audio,processing all that audio to
figure out what you're talkingabout so they can give you ads.
They don't need to, they alreadyknow, they have so much
information on you from trackersand things like that, that you,
that would be a ridiculous pathto go down.
They don't literally don't needto, they gain nothing from it.

(40:46):
They already know way more thanyou think.
At this point, it's just a datagrab, get as much data as you
can from as many sources as youcan,

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (40:54):
Right.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (40:54):
we don't mine it today, we can go
back and mine it.
Like, retro mining is a very bigindustry right now because
there's a lot of data that wasnever processed with modern
tech.
And in 10 years, tech will bebetter.
So the data we're giving uptoday will be reprocessed.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (41:09):
Yes.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (41:10):
that itself is data.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (41:11):
And the data now is actually likely
going to be more valuable andcleaner than the data in ten
years, because once we startunleashing, like, AIs generating
content out there, it isdefinitely the snake eating its
own tail.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (41:26):
Yeah, this is peak, peak real data is,

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (41:29):
Right.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (41:29):
at right now.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (41:30):
Right.
This is before the AIs haveflooded the market, so like, who
knows, man, maybe this is theheight of civilization.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (41:38):
Who knows, but, uh, we have to do
something about the amount ofdata that's being gathered from
everywhere.
I mean, even calls and.
device that exists is nowconnected to the internet and
gathers data in any way it can,

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (41:52):
Yeah.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (41:52):
either directly or indirectly.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (41:54):
I'm momentarily saddened by it
because I mean, this is exactlyhow we get Samsung's, uh,
sending data back, like from thesmart TVs.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (42:03):
we need to get them to stop.
And

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (42:05):
Right.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (42:05):
hard part.
And it all, it all fits togethersomehow.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (42:09):
It does.
We need, we need something whereit's, we have innovation,
economic sustainability, andtaking back people's privacy.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (42:20):
You're not going to be able to use any
of these devices for anythingthat the original manufacturer
didn't consider.
Which is another problem.
It's like, we want to cross usethese devices.
This would be good for this orwhatever.
It's it's when the manufacturerlocks everything down and
decides whether you can or can'tdo that.
Is it really your device?

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (42:41):
No.
It's not.
It belongs to the ecosystem.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (42:45):
or companies like that need to make
products.
Tell us why we want that productand then let us decide if that's
the same story.
your story through protectionsand encryption and things like
that isn't the, isn't the freemarket.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (43:06):
Mm mm.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (43:07):
your story and your side of the story
is correct, but we don't know ifthere's a better way because we
never got a chance to try it.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (43:15):
Yeah.
We're ending up basically withthese little dictatorships that
are effectively each of theindividual tech companies that
own a different piece of thesphere and are increasingly not
competing with each other, butthey're ossified into.
A very comfortable, like fiefdommodel.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (43:34):
Yeah.
Well, they all find a littlespot.
Yeah.
They initially compete in someareas, but the pie is big enough
that each one gets a little bit.
They kind of compete at theedges of those slices and, and
that's it.
There's the Apple camp.
There's the Google camp.
They, they do what they do.
There's a little bit of overlap.
There's some people who switchback and forth and there's some
people who'll never switch backand forth.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (43:55):
Yeah.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (43:57):
they're basically only competing for the
people who will switch.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (44:01):
Yeah, it's true.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (44:03):
The rest of the market's pretty
stable.
It's a perfect example.
It's the people in the Googlecamp.
There's a few old switch.
And if I have a friend, Iswitched years ago.
but there are some who justdon't like the way Apple does
business and they don't like theclosed wall system that's fine.
You'll never convince thosepeople to switch.
So that's not even an Applecustomer.
It's the people in the edges.
So that says it's a pie thatyou've divided and it's against

(44:23):
the edges of the slices wherepeople move around.
The slices might change size alittle bit.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (44:29):
yeah,

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (44:30):
by culture.
It varies by, uh, socioeconomicstatus.
It varies by country.
It's all different everywhere,but it's always the same setup.
It's like, there's, there's athin margin of people who is
actually your market.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (44:46):
right.
Otherwise everyone just kind ofstays in their lane.
I mean, I'm thinking about thisfrom a product perspective.
Like, Google attempted a coupleof times to do a social network
and then turned it down.
So there was no, they didn'treally ever have a serious
competitor to Facebook.
Facebook basically bought theserious competitors for its
social network, basicallyInstagram and to a certain

(45:07):
extent WhatsApp.
Who knows what Apple will dowith the Apple Vision Pro, but I
could also see them turning thatdown and basically making Oculus
still the reigning champ in thatarea.

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (45:19):
The vision pro is a good example.
Like in a year, Apple decided toget out of the AR space.
What happens to the vision pro?
3,

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (45:25):
yeah, yeah,

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (45:27):
piece of hardware that without of
backend support isn't, uh,really usable.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (45:37):
I don't know, man.
I

rob_2_05-14-2024_110522 (45:38):
And Apple have got no statement made
as to how long they're going tosupport this thing for.
They could stop supporting atany point in time.
And your investment is now justa paperweight.

pj_2_05-14-2024_110522 (45:48):
And that's it.
Like there's not reallycompetition.
They're just kind of settled intheir niches that serve
different purposes for people.
As I said, let's go break themodel.