If you've ever wondered why you're not landing the brand photography jobs you dream about, this episode is a must-listen. I sat down with Karen Williams—keynote speaker, course creator, and CEO of Black Visual Queen—to get the insider perspective most photographers never get access to.
Karen isn’t a photographer herself—she’s the one in the room when big brands are deciding who to hire and why. In this episode, we get into the unsexy but essential parts of getting hired, like building a strategic website, pricing with clarity, and knowing your "why" like your career depends on it (because it does).
This episode is packed with practical advice for photographers who are serious about booking brand clients. We also explore how to navigate contracts, build confidence, and avoid the most common mistakes photographers make when pitching to brands.
CONNECT WITH KAREN:
Want to work with Renee?
SCHEDULE A FREE DISCOVERY CALL HERE
LEAVE A REVIEW in 5 seconds flat (helps us a ton!)
JOIN the Podcast & Creative Community
LEARN MORE about Renee at
www.reneebowen.com - main site (photography + coaching)
& www.reneebowencoaching.com (coaching + courses)
SOCIALS:
Instagram
Facebook
TikTok
FOR PHOTOGRAPHERS:
FREE TRAINING for Photographers
Make sure you TAG me when you post on social and once a month, we choose one person who leaves us a review and we'll send you a FREE audible book of your choice!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Why photography?
Why is that the medium you havepicked to creatively express
yourself?
Because on our side, yes, we'relooking for technical precision
and it's good that you mightknow how to shoot everything.
But I always say, if you'retrying to be everything to
everyone, then you're no one.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to Tried and True with a dash of woo, where
we blend rock solid tips with alittle bit of magic.
I'm Renee Bowen, your host,life and business coach and
professional photographer atyour service.
We are all about gettingcreative, diving into your
business and playing withmanifestation over here.
So are you ready to getinspired and have some fun?
Let's dive in.
Hey, welcome back to Tried andTrue with a Dash of Woo.
(00:42):
I'm Renee Bowen, your host, andtoday's episode is going to flip
the script for anybody who'sever wondered why they're not
getting booked for the brandwork that they dream about or
trying to break into thatindustry of commercial or brand
photography.
But we also dive into just somereally amazing advice for
(01:02):
creatives in general, becausetoday I'm joined by Karen
Williams and she is a keynotespeaker, a course creator, and
she's also the brilliant mindbehind Black Visual Queen.
But what makes Karen differentfrom most voices in the
photography world is that she'snot a photographer.
She's a photo editor and adecision maker, and she's been
(01:24):
in the room literally with thepeople who decide who gets hired
and why they get hired.
So she has a very uniqueperspective and she's here today
to pull back the curtain onwhat actually matters when it
comes to shooting for brands,building a presence that gets
noticed, how to get hired andmaking your career sustainable,
(01:46):
not just busy.
Y'all are going to love her, solet's dive right in.
Hey, karen, thank you so muchfor being here today.
This is going to be such a funconversation and a little
different than my norm, so Iwant to just kind of dive right
in.
So you've got a lot of insightsand a lot of interesting advice
for us photographers, but youyourself are not a photographer,
so tell me a little bit about,like, your journey, what brought
(02:08):
you to where you are now andhow you sort of got into all of
this.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
So I kind of quote unquote became the family
photographer while growing up.
So that's where kind of my loveof photography kind of came
into and took a class in highschool, like right when I was
graduating, and fell in lovewith just the process and my
heart was always within fine artphotography.
(02:33):
So you know, naturally I waslike, okay, I'm going to go to
school, not understanding whatbeing a photographer was at that
time, like it was just like, oh, I'm going to go, I'm going to
take pictures, I'm going to sellmy fine art for $10,000 a piece
.
I'm never going to have to worka day Not understanding just
the fine art side of it is amore.
It's like its own kind of beastand that's of how do you create
(02:56):
art.
But then it's commercial viablefor people to want to buy.
But when I was in school I lovedgoing for my BFA and MFA.
They teach you basically thetechnical stuff.
So when I graduated with my BFAI still kind of didn't know
what to do because they didn'treally tell you other than being
a photographer or beingassistant or studio manager or
(03:19):
teacher, like you know, whatelse do you do with the screen.
So I decided, okay, if I'mgoing to be a teacher because at
this point I kind of just knewI liked photography and I liked
taking pictures.
I just couldn't do the hustle.
I was very shy, I didn't like.
I did street photography andtook pictures of buildings.
I did portrait.
It was like, get away from me,I don't want to talk to people.
(03:41):
I don't want to talk to people,I don't want to have to meet
people, I just want to be bymyself, go pick up a 35 and go
run through the street when noone messes with me.
And so, even when I was juststudying for my MFA and it was
still more theory and justtechnical stuff and just really
honing of like developing my ownvisual eye I still didn't know
what I was going to do until Idid an internship, went back to
(04:02):
the UK and did an internship ata custom publishing house which
basically primarily worked withEuropean airliners magazines.
And that's when I discovered oh, this world of, oh, you could
be a photo editor or photoproducer, where basically you're
not necessarily a photographerbut you're helping, you're still
part of the team of helping tocreate the visuals.
And then, plus logistics, whichI love, and that was my jam.
(04:26):
I was like, oh my gosh, I foundmy career because I could still
be in the world of photography,I could still create I'm just
not necessarily the personbehind the camera and just
figured it out, one Googlesearch at a time and that's kind
of like this, getting thatmomentum snowball effect of like
, okay, I got my internship atAustin Monthly Magazine, then I
got my first job at SildonLiving and then ADRP and then
(04:48):
now here like in tech world oflike Square Masterclass and now
Netflix.
So just slowly understanding andthat's kind of my motivation
and my passion of why I wrotethe book of like the photo
hustle, because just takingthese lessons of things that
they don't teach you really inschool, and understanding oh,
how do you have a successfulcareer, how do you manage your
(05:09):
finances, what is a contract?
All that kind of stuff where Ikind of had to learn and apply.
Like I didn't sign my first NDAuntil, like, I worked at my
first tech company and I waslike what's this?
I don't understand what that is.
I don't, I guess.
So I'm just going to so that'skind of like in a nutshell of
like kind of where I've been for, like over the past, like 15
years.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Okay, yeah, no, that's really interesting to me
that with a BFA and an MFA, youdidn't like cause I didn't do
that, right Like so.
I am a portrait photographer.
I love working with people, butI tell photographers that I
coach all the time.
Yeah, you need to know whatyou're doing, but this is a
people job.
So, yeah, definitely that level.
So I love that littledistinction there.
(05:50):
But also, like, I'm self-taught, right Like so.
I got my degree in psychologyand then came to it later.
So I don't have that backgroundof, like, going into a formal
education for photography or anyof the arts like that.
But I would assume that atleast in the master's level,
that you'd be learning a littlebit more about, like you said,
the hustle, the business, likehow you actually.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
that's so why I think it's getting a little better,
but again it's.
It's just insane.
They're having this on TikTok.
It's been this debate with BFAprograms for actors and all that
stuff going on right now.
It's the same with photography.
I love my teachers.
I'm a nerd, so I didn't mindgoing to school because I'm a
learner and I need to get thatinformation and absorb it and I
(06:32):
would tell photographers youdon't have to go into debt, you
can be self-taught.
I know so many photographerswho are like I was a doctor, I
hated it and I picked up acamera and here's my career.
But again, trying to findplaces where you can understand
the business side, because Ithink one of the issues is a lot
of my professors who I loved,were not in the business and
(06:54):
especially in the industry ofbrand, commercial or working in
the industry itself.
They were more fine art andthey were doing it as an art
form, for a passion, versussomeone like I'm from the ad
world or I'm from a majorcorporation or brand.
And to give you thatinformation, because even with
the book for all my self-taughtphotographers, I always say
(07:15):
self-taught photographers have aleg up sometimes versus like
people who graduated.
Because when you kind of pickup the camera, you kind of have
to learn real quickly.
Ok, what do you want to bedoing, what do you kind of want
to ultimate?
And then you're starting tokind of train in that and at
least you're getting a type ofknowledge and training versus
where, if you go to school,you're kind of it's like
nebulous and you're kind of likeI can experience all this stuff
(07:36):
and it's not like timesensitive usually versus like
self-taught.
I got to get this off theground, you know really quickly.
But again they would be like goto this workshop or maybe it's
very loosely of like this is howyou put a portfolio together,
but not understanding how tosell yourself to the clients
(07:57):
that you ultimately want, orunderstanding first who you are
as a photographer.
I'm going to sound like abroken market, like I'm always
like no, you're white becausethey say I wish this was taught
more.
Know your why, understandingwhat you ultimately do.
So you want to be a portraitphotographer?
Okay, great, what kind there'sso many things.
Are you going to go intolifestyle?
You're going to be black andwhite.
You want to shoot celebritiesbecause those are all different,
(08:19):
like ball games of, like howyou're pitching yourself and how
you are creating work.
Who are the clients?
It's almost like I always tellphotographers when they come to
me we're not going to get to thefun stuff first, we're going to
get to the unsexy part of it'scalled market research.
Okay, you want to be a foodphotographer and you want to
shoot for all the fast foodthings and especially talk about
?
Okay, I will review theirportfolio.
(08:41):
I'm not coming from my side ofhiring and I'd be like, okay,
great portfolio, where's yourtacos?
Where's your Mexican food?
Because you're coming to peoplewhere nowadays, where there's
more photographers, versus jobs.
I have to present you to a teamand they want to see social
proof that you can do it.
Cause the budget, we don't havetime to be doing research
shoots.
We want to be assured that youknow how to handle the type of
(09:03):
like again, you want to go andgo to Victoria's Secret but you
have no lingerie shots or anypersonal model or something like
yes.
I love your fashion shots.
And I'm not saying that youcan't get hired if you don't
have those things, but nowadayspeople want to see that visual
proof.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, that makes total sense.
Ok, so I want I talk about thisa lot too.
I want to touch on the why youyou just mentioned it really
quickly.
That's a really big piece of mycoaching as well.
It's like a foundational thingbecause, again, people come to
me too with whether they'reself-taught or not.
I mean, I, I, you know I workwith photographers who have gone
to school as well but there'salways this side of it's not
(09:42):
even just the business.
They might even have like adecent understanding of like
okay, is this essentials thatthey need to do, but like that
marketing piece is really reallyhard for us creatives.
Like just in general, I havefound across the board, as I'm
sure you have seen too, becauseyou're this artist and you're a
creative and you want to go outand do, but then at the same
(10:03):
time, it's like, okay, well,this is just a really expensive
hobby unless I figure out how to, you know, make some money in
this.
So this marketing piece, Ireally believe, too, that it
starts with this.
Why a deep understanding?
And I always tell people likeyou've been living it.
It's just about us taking outthis highlighter and like
highlighting it and being veryintentional about what that is.
(10:24):
So I want to like ask you whatyou do, cause I mean, I'm coming
from like the portrait world,mainly right, and I work with
creatives of all kinds, butmainly portrait photographers.
With that in your world andwhat you do, because you, you
essentially are the personpulling people in jobs, right,
how do you know, first of all,like when you're looking for
(10:46):
looking at photographers let'sjust say for work, for for you
know, a campaign, um, how canyou tell they know their?
Why can you?
When it looks, cohesive.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
It's like it's hard to spring to put in a thing, but
when you look at a website,when you look at a portfolio
piece, when you look at a pieceof art, even like a t-shirt, you
know, just put yourself in thatplace of when you're trying to
find something and you're likethat's it.
That, versus like, ooh, this isnot good quality, this is not
you.
Everyone can know what's goodand bad, and for me it's like
(11:16):
even if I'm not like a fan ofthe work.
If you have like a cohesivenessto your work where I understand
your point of view, I can stillappreciate it.
I might not be like this is notmy top key and I'm not going to
hang it on my wall, but you seeit, you can't put into words,
you just see it.
And this is why when you say ofknowing your, why you're
(11:36):
preaching and speaking mylanguage because it is not
taught enough when you're justkind of picking up the camera,
you're just learning technique,you're looking at, you know
people and you're trying toemulate.
And it's good to emulate and belike figure out the lighting
and stuff like that.
But I would say you need toremix it.
And who are you?
What is your unique visual eye?
And I always say this is whyyou need to know your, why and
(11:56):
who you are as an artist.
You need to know whyphotography?
Why is that the medium you havepicked to creatively express
yourself?
Because on our side, yes, we'relooking for technical precision
and it's good that you mightknow how to shoot everything,
but I always say, if you'retrying to be everything to
everyone, then you're no one.
And this is why at Harpware, weare on our side.
(12:17):
We get a creative brief andwe're always trying to find
photographers that are going tomatch it.
And it doesn't mean you go andcopycat because you don't want
to be the cheap version ofsomeone else.
But again, you know, we're justlike.
We're fans too.
We want to look at greatphotography.
We want to see artistry in yourwork.
Photography is an art.
I will die in a cell.
(12:38):
I'm team photo.
People will like undervaluephotography, but they want it.
They want to cheap out on it.
I get this every day wherethey're like hey, we want the
Mona Lisa, like here's 5 cents.
And I'm like here's 5 centsworth.
Okay, here, get your mom totake a picture.
Oh, you don't like it?
Yeah, cause as a photographerphotographers, listen you should
(13:00):
be charging your worth becauseyou are providing a skill and
art.
We're not looking for someone.
Like I always say, almosteveryone knows how to use a
camera.
Not everyone knows how to takea picture and at the end of the
day, if you are just in it for,like, I just want to make big
bucks that's what they come tome with.
Like you know, and I want tomake a lot of money You're going
(13:21):
to die, you're going to die.
You're going to die Like thepeople who are on top of the
game.
When you see, when you'resaying like, ooh, that's it.
There's a passion by it,because you cannot just
manufacture that 24 seven ofcreating beautiful work and
being able to see the light inthe, in the shapes, and then
there's a passion behind thatcrap.
It is hard work, but the payoffof this, that end product, and
(13:44):
there's so much truth to like.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
When I go into like this why and purpose work with
clients, we always sort of likekind of go into and I always
tell them like very much like aSimon Sinek girl, right, it's
like okay, that's kind of why,like, let's start with, like,
your legacy, your pet, like justin general, your photography is
just how you express that.
Okay, but we're going to getspecific about it.
(14:06):
But, like, taking evenphotography outside of it, what
are you even about?
Right?
Because, like, we live in sucha saturated world like social
media, everything we're likeinundated with ads and
everything everywhere.
So it's very hard for creative,spicy brains to stay in their
lane, like to really hone in onwhat this is and like stand in
(14:30):
the confidence of knowing, likewhat this is about for you,
really living that passion and,you know, like letting it sort
of like ooze through you.
(14:50):
I really believe that that iswhy marketing is so hard for so
many of us is because we're justgrasping at straws at that
point and hoping that, oh, I canbe this person you know for
that one, or I can be thisphotographer for that person.
It's like no, no, no strongsense of you, your brand and
your why has to come out of you,and I know you harp on this a
(15:11):
lot in the book and you even saya lot about like okay, you see
photographers getting passedover all the time, not because
they're not talented, butbecause they're not prepared,
they're not polished and they'renot priced properly, and you
touched on that a little bit.
But I want to kind of dive moreinto that, because this is also
something I see a lot of howphotographers are like don't
(15:33):
they don't feel confident to?
charge what they need to becharging, what.
There's so much competition andall of this.
Let's talk about that for alittle bit, because I can see
how it is on my side in here.
You know the portrait world andeven in the headshots and
things like that, but where youare it's a whole different sort
of world.
You're working with biggerbrands, bigger budgets, things
(15:54):
like that.
Why is it so important forphotographers who want to get
into that line of work to reallymake sure they have all of
those pieces dialed in,including the price point?
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Because, again, you get like one person's impression
and I always tell photographersremember there's usually not
just one sole person doing thehiring versus like maybe there's
a celebrity or high list talentor you know an exec to be like
I just want to work with thisperson and then that's what
we're doing.
Usually we are pitching you toa team and so if you're coming
(16:26):
to me, I might see a diamond inthe rough right and I know you
can do it.
But trying to, if your websiteis looking raggedy and it's like
broken links and it doesn'tmake sense, it's going to be
hard to sell you or pitch you toother people where they know oh
, I've worked with this otherphotographer and look at how
amazing how they're presenting.
They may not be the best person, they may not be the best
(16:49):
photographer, but because theyhave presented well, people are
going to call them like first orwant to work with them first,
versus maybe you.
And so what I tellphotographers?
Like okay, we take a chance onyou and then you're going to
come with me with a day rate ofa $10,000 a day Something's not
(17:09):
commuting, because I know I workwith photographers who charge
that and you look at their,their work and what they produce
.
It correlates and before you'reeven thinking about what your
price point is.
This is why I have a wholechapter in the book.
You have to understand yourfinances first, understand how
much.
What is that minimum?
What is that number where it'slike you're breaking even?
You're starting there and thenmultiplying up from there.
(17:30):
But first you have tounderstand your expenses.
You need to understand how muchincome is coming.
What are like?
You know the equipment you'rereading out like all that stuff
before you're even starting totry to price, because I I always
want for times to be empowered,because in the brand world some
companies might be like okay,and I always say a correlated to
the economy.
Where the economy is good,companies are spending.
(17:52):
They're like then the economy,you know okay we're having a
rough at it.
And then we're like I want tolook at the accountants coming,
like I'm looking at every line.
Where's this receipt?
Why do we have to have it fromthe brand world?
So I always say forphotographers, it's like you
need a charge of work, butunderstand, where are you at
(18:13):
first, talent-wise, if you feellike you're.
If you're not there, you keepgoing, you keep mastering your
craft.
This is why you know your, why,because, like I always say, kind
of piggybacking off of, likeyou know, of that foundation,
knowing what you want to bedoing, it's like take money out
of it but you still want to dophotography, because if it's no,
then you're not going tosurvive.
(18:34):
Because the ebbs and flows ofthis business, on this side,
when thinking about a pricepoint, when you get to the point
where, and again, the brandmight be like okay, cool, we.
When you get to the point where, and again, the brand might be
like okay, cool, we'll take yourday rate, and the brand might
be like, no, this is how muchwe're paying.
So if you understand yourfinances and know that baseline,
say you get the dream gig oflike okay, beyonce, but you know
(18:55):
that you're going to take aloss but you understand that
when I photograph and I can putit in my portfolio, that's going
to get me gigs and get me moreclients that I can charge at the
rate I usually would becharging and that's worth it for
you to take the loss versus,like, oh, this other gig that
you see all these red flags andthen everyone's scope creep and
they're micromanaging your deathand you're like, no, that's not
(19:17):
worth it.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yeah, no, for sure, yeah, you have to weigh those.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
And there's no precise like calculate.
I wish I could tell you likeevery there is no, because other
than like when I'm working inpublications and editorial side
there's usually around you cankind of find like rate sheets
and like what people like in theminimal and stuff.
But again, they're not onlyyour work and licensing, because
when you get into brand usuallypeople want buyouts and then
(19:42):
you kind of have to do somemental math.
It's almost like you know frommy side.
Sometimes we're encouraged andwe can share like this is our
budget, this is what we'relooking at, and then you're
you're in negotiation and thensometimes brands are like here's
our day rate, send us anestimate of what you think.
And I that's why I kind of havein the book where I take, an
approach of when you get thatkind of thing, when you, after
(20:04):
you asked all your questions totry to gauge like what are you
covering?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
What am I covering?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
And all that stuff right, kind of price it up, what
can I?
How can I get this job done atthe quality, at bare bones?
And then on the other end ofthe spectrum, okay, if I could
have all the bells and whistlesand then come in the middle,
because then you have a startingpoint where, okay, maybe
they're like, okay, we have thatbudget, okay, cool.
And then you know, okay, boom,I have enough to do it.
Or they might be like, oh, okay, our budget is this, so you
(20:32):
know what you can take out andstill do a good job and see if
you can meet there.
So that's kind of how I approachit, cause, again, every brand
is different.
But understand that if you'renot asking the questions you
know up front of, like you knowwhat is the budget, if they can
give you one, what is beingtaken care of and all that, so
it gives you more foundation ofbase to make a good estimate.
So I always tell advice for ajob would be the diligent Sorry
(20:55):
words this morning, and knowthat sometimes we cannot start
the conversation.
You have to do it Like you haveto email and prompt, and
sometimes we email to do it Likeyou have to email and prompt,
and sometimes email me thisoffline like, oh, okay, let me
just send it off and we can getthe conversation you know going.
But don't be afraid to beproactive and don't be afraid to
(21:16):
be like asking questions.
I think a lot of photographersget scared because, oh God, it's
my dream client, but they canbe literally fleecing you.
But if you understand, okay,yes, they're fleecing me, but I
get to shoot this major thingthat if I put it in my portfolio
it's going to get me attentionwith other clients where I know
I'm going to be taken care of.
Maybe it's worth it to you.
That's going to be individualto each photographer.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
And those questions are really important just across
the board.
I mean, like even in our worldtoo.
You know that can be a reallybig piece of it, especially with
, like you know, when we'reshooting like branding for like
a small company, things likethat, right, like, so you have
to kind of like lead with, likeokay, well, you know what's your
budget and hopefully they atleast give you some parameters.
Yes, exactly, usage is a realbig one in your world and a lot
(22:02):
of people who also do like evenheadshots and branding, so like
can you speak to a little bit ofjust like some insider info
real quick, because I want toget into the website stuff,
because, like, if you guys havenot seen our website and you
really should like your websiteis so bad, thank you to my web
designer, catherine studio seven70.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
I highly recommend her 100%.
Go to her.
She's amazing, I would say.
Always in the licensing side,from my experience, most brands
will want to have a buyoutbecause they're not going to
want to do the back and forthRight.
So you just have to make surethat when you're pricing I
always say again, think abouthuman nature.
We all do it, we all want todeal, but making sure it's fair
(22:40):
to you, where you can live withit, and I think what scares a
lot of photographers are youwilling to walk away, and that's
what gets people, when you'rein a scarcity mindset of like,
realize on our side we usuallyare respecting negotiations back
and forth.
I had an experience workingwith a colleague and it was for
a cover and they sent thecontract and then, like two
seconds later this thing wassigned and I'm like if you would
(23:02):
have read that contract youwould have known this was not
good for you.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
You signed away so you could tell like, ooh,
because they're eager.
And it's like they see, oh,this is major publication.
And it's like, well, you know,and I'm like y'all read the
content and don't be afraid tobe like, hey, what does this
mean, or what.
Or have someone else read it?
Or bounce, bounce back and belike I see this, I'm good with
this, but can we change this,can we change that?
(23:27):
And again, you may get pushedback and we always go on our
side and like that's why we havelegal teams and they'll tell us
like we can make thatadjustment, but this is a hard
no.
And then you as a photographerhave to decide are you willing
to accept it or not?
And that's an individual Cause.
I, you know, I always say a lotof photographers will be
screaming like you shouldn't dothat, and I'm like you don't
(23:48):
know what situation people arein or circumstances.
Yeah, if you have a trust fundand you can write it out and
stuff, okay, good for you.
Some people might not andthey'd be like, okay, this kind
of sucks, but I really need topay something which I always say
I never wanted a photographerto take a job, just to take a
job.
(24:09):
I always emphasize photographersbecause I was talking to a
group of students a couple ofmonths ago and a student asked
me what should I do?
I'm graduating and I say get ajob.
I want you to get a job first.
I am pro-lap, like I've hadlike with my sales.
I have a full-time job, I, I'mjust me, so I need to be able to
take care of myself and Irather photographers build on
the side while being financiallysecure.
(24:32):
Yeah, then, when you feel like,okay, I have a runway enough
where it's like, okay, I'm goingto try this for a year, okay,
then go ahead, leave and thenpursue it, knowing that there's
no shame.
You can always go back to anine to five job, but again,
that's.
I say it's always an individualdecision, because I say I don't
know your situation.
So it's like, yeah, this is whyyou have to go back to knowing
your whys and your values.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah, you got to really start a strong foundation
of knowing and also likeknowing where you want to be
Right, like even you don't haveto like project five, 10 years
out, but like, okay, a year fromnow, like what exactly would
you like this to look?
So you have something to worktoward I think is important to
(25:15):
you.
But no, that's all really goodadvice.
And as creatives, just ingeneral, I think you know like
my son just graduated with abachelor's in guitar performance
from Berkeley.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Okay, he's an artist.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
He knows he's like okay, I gotta keep working my,
my, my job that I've got, youknow, and you know, keep getting
those gigs.
That's just my husband's anactor, like a writer, you know,
I feel like in my family it'sjust sort of always been like
our way of life, Cause I'm aphotographer, all of these
creatives and it is.
It can be like a really diceylife, Like it really can, and we
(25:45):
live in LA.
It's not easy to do this Right.
So like it's one of thosethings where, like for me, when
I started my business, I neededthis to work.
Like it was one of those thingswhere I was like, okay, if I'm
going to do this, like it needsto work, it needs to be
profitable.
It wasn't doing it just for themoney, obviously, because I
love it, but like I also wasn'twilling to do it for free
because it was taking time awayfrom my kids, my life, all of
(26:07):
those things, and so I had toreally lean on, okay, like why
am I really wanting to do?
this and how can I build it in away that is profitable but also
meaningful, you know, not justfor me but for my clients, and I
feel like not enoughphotographers and maybe you know
, like you said, like kind ofcoming out of college or school,
it might be one of those thingswhere, like you really do need
(26:29):
to take a minute.
Take a minute and really assess, like where that, where you
want this to to be in a year,set some small goals for
yourself at least, but don'ttake that eye, don't take your
eye off the prize is kind ofwhat I always tell people Like
how bad, do you really want this?
Speaker 1 (26:44):
And that's why I wish like at schools.
And this is why I always say Ifeel like self-taught
photographers have like a littleedge because, again, most of
them go into it where it's likeI'm making a whole career pivot
and stuff like that.
So I need to understand thebusiness, I need to understand
how to price myself, so you havethat drive and focus, not
saying like when you go toschool you don't have that drive
and focus, but it's likebecause it's like and again,
(27:06):
this is why I love my schoolit's like all about
experimenting and stuff.
And I think that's good for,maybe, your freshman sophomore
year.
But if you're going into itlike I'm going to graduate with
a degree, junior year, we shouldbe talking about okay, what's
your why?
What are you ultimately doing?
Not saying you have to belocked in, but say you want to
be a portrait photographer Okay,what time Do you want to be
lifestyle?
Do you want to be fine art?
(27:31):
Do you want to be shootingcelebrities?
Do you want to be shooting?
Maybe it's nonprofit, maybe youwant to go more
photojournalistic, to startexploring that, and what does
that mean?
So, what are those publicationsor brands you want to be
working with?
What's the kind of work youwant to be producing ultimately?
Speaker 2 (27:43):
right.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
And understanding how to get there, knowing that you
can pivot, but you need to havea direction and a path.
And then leading into thenunderstanding, okay, say, I want
to be a high-end fashionphotographer and I want to shoot
for Vogue and W and I want toshoot for Chanel and stuff like
that.
Then this is now going to belike okay, you have the
(28:05):
foundation and framework.
Now to then, when you were kindof going into, what you want to
talk about next is website andwhat you need to be thinking
about and how you're presentingto these brands, and that's a
perfect segue.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
And clients you want to attract.
Yes, and that's why I thinkthat this is like I've had.
You know, I've hadconversations before here on the
podcast, you know, aboutwebsites and specifically SEO.
But I want to really kind ofdive into this, because you talk
about this a lot.
I'm a really big believer inthis too, and I see portrait
photographers, websites and likemost of them across the board,
(28:41):
they're just, they're sort ofgeneric.
If I'm being honest, there'snot a whole lot of anything
dynamic about it.
You know it's more about like,trying to sort of like fit in
and try and be what they thinkthey should be.
But you talk about this a lot,especially in your world too.
But I feel like it's equallyimportant in my world, like
you've got to be, like you'vegot to have a dynamic website.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yes, think about if I was using my example because
I'm like, think about it.
Like you have a busted toilet,you need a plumber.
Now Plumber A.
You go to their website.
It's plumbing 24 seven.
You see the Yelp reviews fivestars.
You see, there they have like aYouTube of like here's how you
can do modern plumbing fixesyourself.
You see their services.
(29:23):
You see a phone number content.
It all works, it all clicks.
Then you go to Plumber Bee andyou're like okay, I clicked this
link, it's error 401.
Oh, so you run a pizzeria and ayou know acapella group and I
do plumbing like two times aweek and I can't contact you
because the page doesn't exist.
You know, just think about anyservice you're trying to get, or
(29:44):
when you're trying to comparedoctors or like stores or
restaurants and stuff like that.
You can go to it now and I'mnot saying that.
I will say there's some coolmama pops and there's
photographers, that, okay, yougo to their site and you're like
because they have a strong wordof mouth and they've probably
been in this industry fordecades and they have that
reputation that they can getaway with that.
(30:06):
But if you're new, this is whyand again I'm going to sound
like a burglar and we're goingto go back to understanding why,
who you are as a photographer,because I can say a lot of
photographers get caught up inthe aesthetic in a sense of it
needs to be this First.
It needs to have great work,because your work is going to be
like this shining star andthat's what's got to hold it.
It doesn't matter how prettythe fonts are, doesn't matter,
(30:28):
because if the work is not there, if you do not have a coherent,
clear vision of who you are,like your visual eye, of how you
, your take on, let's say,portraiture, it's not going to
matter.
Yeah, so, like I said, theunsexy part of okay, when you're
understanding like I want to bein portrait and I will say I
want to do high fashion, then doyour market research.
(30:48):
See first those brands andplaces and clients you want to
pick up.
Do a visual audit of like whatare they putting out there, what
are they liking, and stuff likethat.
Then go to photographers doingwhat you ultimately want to be
doing.
You're not trying to copy them.
They're kind of yourcompetition but kind of not.
You're just going to see howare they presenting themselves.
Maybe you see oh, I see a lotof them using this terminology.
(31:08):
And again, keep in mind, yourwebsite is a living, breathing
organism that needs to bechanged.
So once you get data points,you can change and see what's
working for you.
But first, kind of start withthat research of looking at
photographers, getting the jobsand the clients you want and
seeing what's working, notworking, maybe what you like or
not like.
Going to your body of workfirst and then seeing okay, I
(31:31):
have all this.
After you have all theinformation, you calculate this
is what I ultimately want to do.
You can go and then audit yourwork and say, okay, these images
are working and arerepresenting what I want to be
doing and the kind of work Iwant to be getting now.
And then the rest, you know youtake that off.
I know it's painful.
Remember your website is amarketing piece.
You can't get too attached.
And if you get really attachedand you're like I don't want to
(31:52):
get rid of these pictures, maybethat's where personal projects
come in, because personalprojects can be personal
projects.
Or I tell photographers ifyou're really attached, just
make a separate site foryourself, put it on that and you
can look at it every day andyou see it on a website, but it
on a website.
But you have to really thinkabout the hiring managers or
your client, potential clients.
(32:15):
Looking at your site is amarketing piece, so you have to
avoid emotion to it.
If I'm like I said, I'm workingat Taco Bell and I'm looking
for a photographer to pitch, Ineed I'm going to your food
session.
Okay, amazing photographer, letme see what I can pull out of
the Mexican and tacos and nachosand stuff to show them like, oh
look, they've also done thiswork for this company or they've
done this personal project andthis will be cool.
You know what I mean.
You have to kind of put the hatof your viewer and the
(32:38):
experience and the first thingis going to be like does when I
go to your site, am I wild?
Yeah, and so this is where I gointo kind of the four pillars
of the website.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
I want to talk about those.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
When you go.
First the work needs to becurated to who you're trying to
attract and the kind of jobs youwant.
Then it needs to be easy tonavigate A five-year-old should
be able to navigate it.
Then I need to know a locationI would love to be, and it's not
like it doesn't happen.
Photographers get flown out todifferent places for specific
(33:10):
things, but lately and kind ofthe trend is, can we work with
someone local to save money?
Then I need to have a contactemail, not just a form.
I always say your websiteshouldn't be causing friction.
How long does it take someoneto find what they need to do so
with?
Speaker 2 (33:29):
the contact.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Get a contact email that I can highlight and copy.
Don't do that.
I get it, Like especially forfemales of like creepers and
stuff like that and I get andthis is why I say you don't have
to have a necessary phone call,Cause I'm not calling first,
I'm emailing before we're havinga call.
I'm not that forward or textingLike we can get into that later
(33:50):
about like etiquette of how youcan contact because you'd be
surprised, but have it where Ican just highlight it and then I
can just put it into the fieldto be able to reach you.
Now, you, I always say you canhave that form, just have an
email and a form, but just don'thave a form because people are
like I don't have I know it'sjust extra work where people
could be like oh, I can justhighlight this or you make it
(34:12):
linkable where it automaticallyopens the email that's chosen
and it makes it easy.
Like I say, your website shouldmake it easy for people to see
right away who you are and whatthey're wanting to look for.
And then, like some other tipsis like I always kind of preface
, like have an overview pagewhere people can just see right
away, like and this is your likeappetizer, where these are your
(34:33):
A plus plus images.
I always say think about it Ifthis image, this image, should
be able to stand alone on acover and a billboard without
explanation.
And then people are like Ooh, Iwant to dig in more, let me go
into the galleries.
Yeah, right, but the ultimategoal is you want to make it as
easy for people to get aroundand find what they need to get
(34:53):
and the question to ask is yourwebsite creating friction for
people?
Because if it's like slowloading times, like I get
impatient, like I'm likeeveryone now is like look, I
don't got time, unless I reallyhave to stay in this and find
this image or something, or toshow.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
No, I mean, like you can tell now, you know within a
few seconds, easily right Ofhitting somebody's site and I'm
very big on this, I see a lot ofphotographers that you know on
Instagram.
Let's say, right, Well, they'llfollow me.
I'll kind of like go to theirpage and just kind of see, and I
can't tell you how many times Ihave gone to click their link
for their website.
I can't tell from theirInstagram or their website where
(35:34):
they're located.
There's not one location on anyof this, None of it.
And I'm like, what are youdoing?
Speaker 1 (35:41):
People I interview for my book.
Again the same thing we need toknow where you're located.
Yes, you can work worldwide, Iget it, but sometimes we cannot
send someone from Italy to LAunless it's something special.
I'm not saying it's not, wepeople are never, are not flying
things, and I see it all thetime but it's like first people
are going to be like who can wework with locally?
(36:05):
Be cautious, a lot of peoplelike will want to be like by
close.
So like I work LA, new York, Iwork LA, miami, hawaii or
whatever Montana, idaho.
Sometimes I'm like oh my God,you work out of.
Please be aware, when you putthis is where you are located or
when you work local, we are notin our minds.
We see that, as we don't have topay for travel other than, like
(36:29):
you know, if you're taking anUber, a Lyft to the shoot or
something like that, but we'renot paying for a flight, we're
not paying for you to stay in ahotel, that's signaling to us
that you have a place and youknow you can get there as easy
and you pick up the costs onthat.
That's how we're thinking whenyou're putting that.
So I say be very careful whenyou're saying I work Hawaii,
that's good, so I could send youto Alaska, and you're in Texas
(36:53):
and you're going to pay for thatflight.
Where are you going to live?
You know we're not expectingthose charges to hit yeah, not
saying we wouldn't pay for itSometimes, sometimes we still do
, and stuff like that.
But the first glance of this iswhy it's important to have your
location and make sure you'reaccurate is that we're not
expecting that to be part of thebudget, because usually what
gets cut for the budget first istravel.
(37:13):
If we have to make some cuts,no, that's a really good point.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Okay, so, as far as the website goes, we talked
about those four pillars.
I think I agree with with allof those, and I love that little
piece about adding the email,even on the form, because you're
right, like, when you're addingfriction, you're creating these
roadblocks for people.
You want to make it as easy aspossible for people to get in
touch with you.
I mean, like, how much do youwant to work?
(37:38):
Right, like.
So I see, I see that a lot too.
Like there's no way to get intouch, there's not enough
contact, there's nothing listed.
A lot of photographers evenwill be like I don't want to be
in my DMs on Instagram.
Okay, that's a personal choice,I get it, but you also, like,
you have to know your clientright.
So for us, for me and I'll justkind of like segue just for a
second into that, just forlisteners who are like, let's
(38:00):
say, working with high schoolseniors like I am, or even like
wedding photographers you got toknow your client.
If they're finding you onTikTok or finding you on
Instagram, you need to befindable on those places.
Your website a hundred percentneeds to be there.
Do not skimp on that, but youdo need to be available, at
(38:21):
least whether it's an automatedmessage that pops up and says I
don't check these very often.
I check them every 24 hours.
Please hit me up here.
This is my email.
Like make it easy for people tofind you to book you.
Just in general.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
And the bounce back, like even for wedding
photographer any genre.
Think about it Like andespecially going back to price
point.
If you're going to charge thesehigh prices, yeah, okay, I
better be able.
People are going to stalk youever.
People are going to stalk you.
I know I do when I hire coachesand I've hired 10 000 plus
dollars coaches and stuff like Istalk them.
I'm like I'm looking at yourwebsite, I'm looking at your
socials oh, you got a podcast.
(38:56):
I'm listening to all that justto make sure we're on the same
vibe.
And check.
Some photographers are sayinglike oh, your websites are going
like no now there's some thatare.
There's always exceptionsthere's.
I always like.
Here's an art on my side oflike working with brands and
editorial and the secret for Ialways say, brands are always
looking for editorial feeling.
(39:17):
Now for photographers as well,cause they want that real enough
.
Think that kind of face versuslike what back in the old days
where it was like this iscommercial photography or brand
you know, for photography, Iwould say it's like here's the
thing you don't have to havelike a fancy website.
(39:37):
It can be very minimalist.
Like I said, the work is goingto carry it.
Carry it because there's aphotographer I know his website
is a Tumblr page.
It's just a scroll and he getswork and he worked for the top
brands and stuff.
But when you look, I met himand then you know, see his
aesthetic, and that's anotherthing of why you need to know
who you are as an artist,because for his aesthetic, it
works for him.
And if you know who you are asan artist, then you the website,
(40:00):
kind of.
Again, I think a lot ofphotographers get stressed out
or they put a lot, of, a lot ofemphasis.
Yes, the website is important.
This is why I always say lookat other photographers doing
what you want to ultimatelydoing, or other photographers
you admire and to see howthey're putting it.
Nothing is new and undestand.
It's usually just the same kindof format.
(40:20):
Maybe their navigation ishorizontal versus vertical, but
most of the time you have anoverview page and then say
you're a portrait photographer.
Then it's like here's anoverview page and then here's
portraits, and maybe they'rebreaking it down to outside,
inside or whatever Editorialbrand or something you know like
or you know hot, cold orwhatever.
How they interpret, like, howthey want to present the work.
(40:40):
But at the end of the day, Ialways say is still having that
cohesive portfolio.
Okay, yeah, that's holding thiswebsite together of why people
want to reach out to you andcontinue and want to work with
you.
So it's like even like that'swhat I say like in the space of
wedding photography, like peopleare coming to you because they
want to know your vibe, like, oh, your vibe like for my wedding.
(41:03):
Okay, I'd come to your site.
Oh, it's photojournalistics out.
That's the kind of stuff wewant and we're going to see more
social proof.
Basically, think of it likethat your website and your
social and stuff.
People just want to see socialproof that you can be consistent
, and so that's very importantfor branding, of making sure
that it feels consistent bothways and not just one-off, like
you just happily made that.
(41:24):
I want to make sure you can dothat again pretty much 99% of
the time, and again I always sayas a photographer, you want to
be hired for what you do versusa red flag of I like what you do
.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Can you do a 180?
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Like, say, like you're a black and white film
photographer and like we'd likewhat you do, can you shoot color
and digital?
All of a sudden Like, no, youwant to be hired and yes, when
you're working for brands, yes,you're going to have to play in
their sandbox, but when you lookat the end product, it should
still feel like 90% of youretouching all that stuff and
brand stuff, but it's stillstill feel like 90% you.
(41:59):
And if it's not worth it Now Ialways say you will have these
step and repeat clients whereit's like, paid by numbers, it's
not your dad, but you know youcan do it.
But it's like you see thatcheck it pays a mortgage payment
or a car payment or something.
You take those jobs.
You say thank you.
You just don't put it on yourwebsite.
Yep, I get you.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
You know I have a real quick little segue question
and before we get into I wantto kind of like, uh, in a minute
dive into your company, blackvisual queen, cause I love what
you're doing with all of thatand I really want to dive into
your mission there.
But real quick, I'm veryinterested to know what you've
seen on your side working withbrands and large brands.
(42:40):
How is AI imagery changing anyof this yet at all?
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I think again.
Ai is not going away.
So for photographers, you justkind of have to learn the tool
and make it work for you.
I don't see it right now takingover and you don't see like
other than Coca-Cola, cause yousaw what happened with Coca-Cola
they got like roasted when theywere like why did you hire?
Ai is being used as a toolright now to like okay, I need
an idea, I need to prompt it.
Or maybe can you summarize thisfor me or on our site Like okay
(43:07):
, instead of like creating aPinterest board.
Maybe when I'm going to a realset designer or someone who's
sourcing, I could be like canyou create something like this
Iceland dystopia kind of thing.
And at least I can give avisual of this is what I'm kind
of thinking versus trying tofind it, and it makes it just
quicker.
But I'm still working withhumans.
(43:28):
But I always remindphotographers we have been using
AI for a very long time.
Photoshop.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Google search.
When you pop in, it justautomatically pops in what
you're trying to guess, whatyou're trying to look for.
That's like basically AI basedkind of stuff that we've been
doing.
So I don't see it right nowovertaking where we're going to
get rid of the department,because people still and again I
think this was like a hugeboost with COVID of people want
(43:56):
human connection.
People want to still see humans,because I see it all the time
and all the socials people arelike.
When you look at Pinterest nowand it's like I look at it, it's
all AI generated stuff half thetime and I'm like ew, I want to
see something real.
I want to see a real fashionthing.
That's why I'm pinning.
So I was like maybe I want tobuy it, but if it's AI generated
it hasn't been made.
(44:16):
So what's the point of that?
I'm not.
So I say don't be fearful forit.
And again it's like genie isout of the bottle.
I compare to when you know,when the auto industry like,
okay, we're going to use robots,you still see humans on that
factory line, right, you stillsee humans has to oversee,
because what the robot breaks?
Right, and it's not functioningI always say photographers.
(44:38):
Learn it, see how it works foryou, like ai may be um useful
for like those admin stuff,helping you to keep up with the
emails and like accounting andstuff like that.
Creatively play with it.
Because I always say it's kindof like I caution remember when
photographers, when we had thatpoint when we went from film to
digital and people were like, ohno, I'm gonna always, and then
a lot of people got left behindand again people still use film,
(45:00):
yeah, people use digital.
There's there's a happy mediumand I see how AI like kind of
with the digital age.
When I remember and this islike my MFA days, when digital
art was breaking out huge in thegallery scene of people using
it.
That's why I feel like for AI,but again, ai can't replace
creativity, because I feel likecreativity is still connected to
(45:23):
your brain, cause even whenyou're using AI, you still have
to use your brain to think aboutit, to input it and to
understand how and work with itand finish it to get what you
want.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Yeah, and it's being trained by a human right.
So, like a lot of people, youknow, you see that a lot these
days are like oh my gosh.
You know, like Chai Chibuji islike constantly, just, you know,
giving me all these.
You know, yes, yes, yes, I waslike that's because you've
trained it to do that.
It's literally mirroring whatyou're doing and unless you
train it to challenge you, itain't going to do that.
So, like that's.
The other piece of it too isyou can use it as a tool, like
(45:54):
you're saying, to make yourcreativity better, to spark
ideas, but I'm glad that you'renot seeing it in ads at least
yet completely taking over.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
And to just just to add onto this you have to think
about AI is not a shortcut.
You still got to put work intoit and what AI will get rid of.
Ai will get rid of people whoare mid and below, because,
again, people will still pay formastery.
Okay, think about just theevolution of things, of you know
.
Okay, when painting was all therage and then the first camera
(46:26):
was made and people are like ohmy God, paintings are gone.
No, it made paintings go upbecause people still wanted that
craft and artistry of it.
Now, if you are a craft painter, you're like I'm not paying for
that, I could just take a photo, right.
So for AI, like a lot of peopleare like oh, I could just use
AI and I'm going to do.
You're going to see real quick.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
So that's why I harp on.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
You have to continue to master your craft because
people still want to pay forquality photography.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
That's not going away .
Speaker 1 (46:53):
It's just going to weed out people who are just
wanting to stay mid and below.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
That is such a good point.
I remember like cause I've beenaround, I've been doing this
since film days, like beforedigital came out, right Like.
So I remember that switch overand people were like oh my God.
And then the same thinghappened when the iPhone came
out oh my God, no one's evergoing to like, no, people will
still pay for master.
I really really love that youbrought that up, because not
(47:18):
enough people really rememberthat Like it's, it's true, it's
100% true.
There's things are going tocome and go, some things will
stick around, but people stillpay for that mastery level and
I'm sorry, but I really don'tthink that's ever going to
change.
And I also think that we shouldcontinue to evolve, because you
got to keep studying.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Exactly so.
It's like it's not going backinto the, the genie's out of the
bottle.
It's not going back into thebottle.
You just learn how to adapt it,you learn about it and you
learn how it can work for youand maybe maybe AI becomes part
of the process.
But AI is not going to.
It's again a lot, a lot ofpeople, I think why they're
(47:58):
freaking out?
Cause they're like oh, everyone.
I think it's more because noweveryone has access.
It's not like a subset ofpeople.
Now everyone can do it.
But then you're going to seereal quick where people want to
say I want to cheap out.
But then what kind of customersare you attracting now?
Yeah, I don't see people rightnow like especially, let's say,
for example, people in thewedding industry.
I don't see probably bridescoming.
Can you just AI and make AI ofmy whole wedding?
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Right.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Unless you're like an artist, armor guard or
something.
You're like I'm just going todo this, but no, I want photos,
real memories.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
Right, I don't want AI in my family and me.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
Right, I don't want to be in my family and me.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Yeah, totally Okay, I love that.
All right, let's talk realquick before we start wrapping
up.
I want to talk about BlackVisual Queen because I want to.
I love your mission here tochange the industry.
So tell me why you created that, what sparked it for you and
where do you see this going.
And I just kind of want to makesure that we touch on all this,
because I love what you'rebuilding for, like, this next
generation of creatives.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
I think for me, I started Black Visual Queen a
couple of years ago, in 2023.
I was at a career crossroad atthe time and speaking with a lot
of photographers and just beingin this industry, you know,
there's just a lot ofgatekeeping, yeah, and it's not
that, oh, I'm revealing like allthese deep dark seas or
(49:18):
anything, but it's just likethis is this basic information
that I think a lot of peoplejust don't want to put in the
time to just educate people andstill feeling kind of frustrated
, why haven't schools reallycaught up where?
For me, if I had my dreamschool, I'd be like we're going
to learn the basics of readingand writing and math, but then
okay, we're going to learn thebasics of reading and writing
and math, but then okay, we'regoing to start applying that.
Okay.
So for, let's say, like, inmath, we're going to understand
how to do taxes.
We're going to understand writea checkbook I was lucky enough
(49:40):
that I took one math, a model ofmath thing before I graduated
to understand here's how towrite a checkbook, here's what
loans are, and stuff like that.
Black visual cleaning for me isjust bridging that gap of like
real world knowledge andeducation of how we get it from
school or just self-taught andunderstanding how to make it
practical.
Cause, like, I lovedphotography but I didn't my
(50:03):
biggest frustration when Igraduated I still did not
understand what to do with it.
I didn't know you could be aphoto producer because a lot of
people in the creativeindustries you know they just
fall into it and someone justlike, hey, you want to do an
internship here and then youjust continue up the ladder kind
of like thing.
I've seen so many people like Iwas on set and someone said
here's a loop and go ahead, bein the photo department.
And then discovered how youcould be these different things.
(50:25):
So for me, my passion is justto open up those gates, provide
a foundation to always listen todifferent perspectives and see
what works for you.
There is no like in my book Isay there is no magical formula.
I wish I could tell you do aplus you know this and B and
it's going to equal C, becausesome people are picked up like
Beyonce picked that.
Tyler mature Boom, I just knowbecause I was at masterclass
(50:47):
when he was doing hismasterclass and boom, his career
soared.
You know, probably after a year, like a few years, of just
being in the industry, somepeople, like most of my friends,
they grind it out for like 10years or something and then they
finally get one hit and thenboom, the floodgates open.
So everyone's, everyone's pathis not linear.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
No.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
So I just want to provide a base of like for me.
I always say have a strongfoundation of just knowing who
you are, what's your why, what'syour like reasoning of being in
photography, Okay, and thenthis is how you should be trying
to present yourself.
If you're trying to do and Ialways say what I love about my
book is like it can go acrossdifferent creative industries.
(51:29):
I just did photography because,number one, there was no good
book about the business fromthis perspective from my side
yeah, it was always fromphotographers and that is a very
nuanced thing.
And one of the things that getsto my nerves is when I see
photographers like you can makesix figures and like, okay,
that's very nuanced.
And first, is that after taxes,that you said that six figures
and stuff and it's nuanced ofwhat's your talent level and
(51:51):
what niche are you in, becauseit can vary.
So I always say this is why I'mteaching the basic foundations
of building that strongfoundation your portfolio.
And then if you know your why,you know what you ultimately
want to be doing, the brands youwant to work with, then you
curate your portfolio.
It makes marketing so mucheasier because then you know
(52:13):
you're speaking their lovelanguage.
Now, again, on our side, it'sgetting smaller and you're
dealing with smaller teams andso they might not get back to
you right away or you rememberit'll be a long time.
Maybe you hear something.
That's why you have to havethat passion and hustle for this
industry, because it's thoseand rejections.
Speaker 2 (52:37):
Yeah, and I'm sure, like with what you were doing
and you know, sort of likeshifting this narrative, you
also have had a very, you know,not just the unique perspective
of of what you do and the thetype of you know work that you
do, but also being a black womanin this industry.
I mean, I'm sure that'sdefinitely been a journey that
you know like because, like,there's so much gatekeeping just
(52:59):
in general, but then there'sgatekeeping within the
gatekeeping, as far as, like youknow, like you, you go down
that whole sort of like minoritybucket Right, like, yeah,
there's underserved people in inour.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
When I started, it was very few black people being
photo editors.
I didn't know what to be aphoto.
I shout out to rob um, a photoeditorcom.
That's what I discovered, thatin 2008, and I've been following
him ever since he was a formerphoto editor.
So that's how I was learninghow to be a photo editor.
And again, I didn't know better.
I just because I had the driveof I'm gonna be a photo editor.
(53:33):
And then I graduated in 2008,and that's when the economy
tanked, and so that's whenthat's headstrong.
And about four years later,2012, that's when I got Southern
Living.
I just figured it out on thefly.
I didn't understand.
See, this is again thefrustrating of school, because
if I would have known after Igot my BFA oh, you need to be in
New York, probably more or LA,where those are some hubs of,
(53:55):
like you know, publishing Iprobably maybe would have got my
MFA in New York.
But I didn't know that at thetime.
So therefore I was fightingagainst.
Back then you had to have liketwo to three years of experience
to get a entry level job inpublishing, wow.
And so I was doing unpaidinternships in in between,
literally bringing my owncomputer just to break in, and
(54:18):
then once I broke in just tryingto figure out how do you go up
this ladder, and so that's likethe spawn of black visual queen,
of like being like the mentor Iwish I had, because even then
people were kind of liketerritorial, like okay, I'll
teach you this a little bit.
I got to keep my job, you knowkind of like territorial, like,
okay, I'll teach you this alittle bit, but I got to keep my
job, you know kind of thing.
And so that's what all blackvisual is.
It's just trying to educate and, you know, spread the wisdom.
(54:43):
Yeah, Fill in those gaps.
Power photographers you know,and let them know like we're
human beings on this side aswell.
But again, you know, my mainthing is we need your visual eye
and I just want to helpfacilitate whatever dream you
have.
Speaker 2 (54:58):
No, I love that and you do that in the book as well.
So you know you guys candefinitely.
I will link all of this in theshow notes.
I'll link her book for you guys.
The photo hustle it's a gem foranybody who wants to work in
photography, but even like justespecially for folks who are
like tired of vague advice andwant some like real direction.
And I also love how it'swritten.
There's some visuals in thereand it keeps our creative brains
(55:20):
, you know, like interested.
So I love, like the layout ofit.
I think it's just super welldone and I know we could talk
for hours about all these things.
But before we wrap up, you know, in addition to the book, where
do you like to connect withpeople?
Do you want that?
You know what I mean.
If someone has questions foryou, they want to kind of like
learn more about you.
Where do you want to point them?
Speaker 1 (55:41):
You can go to my website, always at
blackvisualqueencom.
My email is blackvisualqueen.
At gmailcom.
You can on all my socials uh,it's at black visual queen.
Try to keep as simple aspossible, but, yeah, email me or
like DME and all my socials onInstagram, on Tik TOK and and
LinkedIn, that's.
(56:01):
I'm also giving advice there aswell.
Speaker 2 (56:04):
Yeah, linkedin.
She's loves the LinkedIn andyou guys, we didn't even get
into that, but there's a lot,especially in this world that
she's in and all of you guys whoare just like branding
photographers or wanting to getinto that kind of work.
Speaker 1 (56:19):
Linkedin is like a really great source for that,
because a lot of businesses Ialways say LinkedIn a lot of
people are like we're poo-pooingand I got into it, like in
during the pandemic.
I was Instagram, just nature ofmy job and just being a photo
thing, but I got into LinkedInand again, a lot of
opportunities for photographershappen there.
If you show up.
(56:39):
And again, it's like being yourbrand and being authentic and I
always say, when you approach,you know how I hopefully,
approaching it, always go in themass and the mindset of being
of service and not like me, me,me, and not take, take, take.
It's like how can I help you,how can I be of service to you?
Because, ultimately, as aphotographer, you are providing
a gift, a service to helpsomeone you know with a problem
(57:03):
that they have and stuff likethat.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
Yeah, absolutely Okay , awesome.
Yes, you guys go check allthose links out below and thank
you so much for thisconversation, karen.
It was so great to meet you andchat with you.
Yes, likewise Thank you forhaving me Such great information
, karen, thanks again for beinghere.
I really loved all the placesthat we went in this
conversation and whether youwant to get into brand
(57:28):
photography, or you are alreadyworking in that world, or you're
a portrait photographer or acreative in general and you're
feeling sort of like the weightof the world, right, you know,
things are getting cut, like shehad mentioned.
Things are changing, things areshifting and so, as a creative
I mean I see it online, I hearit in my communities all the
(57:48):
time people sort of like lettingthe weight of the world really
sit on your shoulders.
If that's you, I really hopetoday's conversation helped you
shift that perspective, becauseI will die on this hill.
The world needs your art.
It always has, it always will.
That's not going to change.
(58:08):
If you look through history,the thing that gets us through
the hardest times is art.
Okay, there's a reason why youwere called to be an artist.
There's a reason why you werecalled to start the job, the
career, the business that youhave or you are dreaming about,
and that is another reason why Icontinue to do this podcast.
(58:31):
Right, I mean, I haveone-on-one coaching clients.
I work with group coachingclients.
I also still run a full-timephotography business, but I
really love being able to sitwith you guys once a week and
bring you insights from all overthe place.
Really, if you know anythingabout me, you know that I really
hate to stick to just like onething, because I do have a lot
(58:54):
of interests and I love talkingabout photography here, I love
talking about our business, butI also really hope that this
podcast helps you see a biggerpicture and expands your
awareness a little bit that30,000 foot view of, like what
you really could have and whatthis life and your business
could really look like, and tojust not give up.
(59:17):
Okay, cause the world reallydoes need your voice, they need
your perspective.
I know it feels really hard andreally daunting and really
scary, but that's why you cometo places like this to feel seen
and heard and where you knowyou find your communities.
And I really hope that you stayon your path, because if you
(59:41):
were called to do this.
There's a reason for it, okay.
So take it one step at a time.
Take it one small step at atime and you're going to get
there.
Obviously, if you need help, youcan reach out.
You know where to find me andyou can definitely connect with
Karen as well.
Go buy her book.
It's really amazing that allthese links for you are below
where you can connect with herand with me as well.
(01:00:03):
So I hope you guys have afantastic rest of your week and
go out there and createsomething just for you and be
good to yourself.
Love you, bye.
Why photography?
Why is that the medium you havepicked to creatively express
yourself?
Because on our side, yes, we'relooking for technical precision
and it's good that you mightknow how to shoot everything.
But I always say, if you'retrying to be everything to
everyone, then you're no one.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to Tried and True with a dash of woo, where
we blend rock solid tips with alittle bit of magic.
I'm Renee Bowen, your host,life and business coach and
professional photographer atyour service.
We are all about gettingcreative, diving into your
business and playing withmanifestation over here.
So are you ready to getinspired and have some fun?
Let's dive in.
Hey, welcome back to Tried andTrue with a Dash of Woo.
(00:42):
I'm Renee Bowen, your host, andtoday's episode is going to flip
the script for anybody who'sever wondered why they're not
getting booked for the brandwork that they dream about or
trying to break into thatindustry of commercial or brand
photography.
But we also dive into just somereally amazing advice for
(01:02):
creatives in general, becausetoday I'm joined by Karen
Williams and she is a keynotespeaker, a course creator, and
she's also the brilliant mindbehind Black Visual Queen.
But what makes Karen differentfrom most voices in the
photography world is that she'snot a photographer.
She's a photo editor and adecision maker, and she's been
(01:24):
in the room literally with thepeople who decide who gets hired
and why they get hired.
So she has a very uniqueperspective and she's here today
to pull back the curtain onwhat actually matters when it
comes to shooting for brands,building a presence that gets
noticed, how to get hired andmaking your career sustainable,
(01:46):
not just busy.
Y'all are going to love her, solet's dive right in.
Hey, karen, thank you so muchfor being here today.
This is going to be such a funconversation and a little
different than my norm, so Iwant to just kind of dive right
in.
So you've got a lot of insightsand a lot of interesting advice
for us photographers, but youyourself are not a photographer,
so tell me a little bit about,like, your journey, what brought
(02:08):
you to where you are now andhow you sort of got into all of
this.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
So I kind of quote unquote became the family
photographer while growing up.
So that's where kind of my loveof photography kind of came
into and took a class in highschool, like right when I was
graduating, and fell in lovewith just the process and my
heart was always within fine artphotography.
(02:33):
So you know, naturally I waslike, okay, I'm going to go to
school, not understanding whatbeing a photographer was at that
time, like it was just like, oh, I'm going to go, I'm going to
take pictures, I'm going to sellmy fine art for $10,000 a piece
.
I'm never going to have to worka day Not understanding just
the fine art side of it is amore.
It's like its own kind of beastand that's of how do you create
(02:56):
art.
But then it's commercial viablefor people to want to buy.
But when I was in school I lovedgoing for my BFA and MFA.
They teach you basically thetechnical stuff.
So when I graduated with my BFAI still kind of didn't know
what to do because they didn'treally tell you other than being
a photographer or beingassistant or studio manager or
(03:19):
teacher, like you know, whatelse do you do with the screen.
So I decided, okay, if I'mgoing to be a teacher because at
this point I kind of just knewI liked photography and I liked
taking pictures.
I just couldn't do the hustle.
I was very shy, I didn't like.
I did street photography andtook pictures of buildings.
I did portrait.
It was like, get away from me,I don't want to talk to people.
(03:41):
I don't want to talk to people,I don't want to have to meet
people, I just want to be bymyself, go pick up a 35 and go
run through the street when noone messes with me.
And so, even when I was juststudying for my MFA and it was
still more theory and justtechnical stuff and just really
honing of like developing my ownvisual eye I still didn't know
what I was going to do until Idid an internship, went back to
(04:02):
the UK and did an internship ata custom publishing house which
basically primarily worked withEuropean airliners magazines.
And that's when I discovered oh, this world of, oh, you could
be a photo editor or photoproducer, where basically you're
not necessarily a photographerbut you're helping, you're still
part of the team of helping tocreate the visuals.
And then, plus logistics, whichI love, and that was my jam.
(04:26):
I was like, oh my gosh, I foundmy career because I could still
be in the world of photography,I could still create I'm just
not necessarily the personbehind the camera and just
figured it out, one Googlesearch at a time and that's kind
of like this, getting thatmomentum snowball effect of like
, okay, I got my internship atAustin Monthly Magazine, then I
got my first job at SildonLiving and then ADRP and then
(04:48):
now here like in tech world oflike Square Masterclass and now
Netflix.
So just slowly understanding andthat's kind of my motivation
and my passion of why I wrotethe book of like the photo
hustle, because just takingthese lessons of things that
they don't teach you really inschool, and understanding oh,
how do you have a successfulcareer, how do you manage your
(05:09):
finances, what is a contract?
All that kind of stuff where Ikind of had to learn and apply.
Like I didn't sign my first NDAuntil, like, I worked at my
first tech company and I waslike what's this?
I don't understand what that is.
I don't, I guess.
So I'm just going to so that'skind of like in a nutshell of
like kind of where I've been for, like over the past, like 15
years.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Okay, yeah, no, that's really interesting to me
that with a BFA and an MFA, youdidn't like cause I didn't do
that, right Like so.
I am a portrait photographer.
I love working with people, butI tell photographers that I
coach all the time.
Yeah, you need to know whatyou're doing, but this is a
people job.
So, yeah, definitely that level.
So I love that littledistinction there.
(05:50):
But also, like, I'm self-taught, right Like so.
I got my degree in psychologyand then came to it later.
So I don't have that backgroundof, like, going into a formal
education for photography or anyof the arts like that.
But I would assume that atleast in the master's level,
that you'd be learning a littlebit more about, like you said,
the hustle, the business, likehow you actually.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
that's so why I think it's getting a little better,
but again it's.
It's just insane.
They're having this on TikTok.
It's been this debate with BFAprograms for actors and all that
stuff going on right now.
It's the same with photography.
I love my teachers.
I'm a nerd, so I didn't mindgoing to school because I'm a
learner and I need to get thatinformation and absorb it and I
(06:32):
would tell photographers youdon't have to go into debt, you
can be self-taught.
I know so many photographerswho are like I was a doctor, I
hated it and I picked up acamera and here's my career.
But again, trying to findplaces where you can understand
the business side, because Ithink one of the issues is a lot
of my professors who I loved,were not in the business and
(06:54):
especially in the industry ofbrand, commercial or working in
the industry itself.
They were more fine art andthey were doing it as an art
form, for a passion, versussomeone like I'm from the ad
world or I'm from a majorcorporation or brand.
And to give you thatinformation, because even with
the book for all my self-taughtphotographers, I always say
(07:15):
self-taught photographers have aleg up sometimes versus like
people who graduated.
Because when you kind of pickup the camera, you kind of have
to learn real quickly.
Ok, what do you want to bedoing, what do you kind of want
to ultimate?
And then you're starting tokind of train in that and at
least you're getting a type ofknowledge and training versus
where, if you go to school,you're kind of it's like
nebulous and you're kind of likeI can experience all this stuff
(07:36):
and it's not like timesensitive usually versus like
self-taught.
I got to get this off theground, you know really quickly.
But again they would be like goto this workshop or maybe it's
very loosely of like this is howyou put a portfolio together,
but not understanding how tosell yourself to the clients
(07:57):
that you ultimately want, orunderstanding first who you are
as a photographer.
I'm going to sound like abroken market, like I'm always
like no, you're white becausethey say I wish this was taught
more.
Know your why, understandingwhat you ultimately do.
So you want to be a portraitphotographer?
Okay, great, what kind there'sso many things.
Are you going to go intolifestyle?
You're going to be black andwhite.
You want to shoot celebritiesbecause those are all different,
(08:19):
like ball games of, like howyou're pitching yourself and how
you are creating work.
Who are the clients?
It's almost like I always tellphotographers when they come to
me we're not going to get to thefun stuff first, we're going to
get to the unsexy part of it'scalled market research.
Okay, you want to be a foodphotographer and you want to
shoot for all the fast foodthings and especially talk about
?
Okay, I will review theirportfolio.
(08:41):
I'm not coming from my side ofhiring and I'd be like, okay,
great portfolio, where's yourtacos?
Where's your Mexican food?
Because you're coming to peoplewhere nowadays, where there's
more photographers, versus jobs.
I have to present you to a teamand they want to see social
proof that you can do it.
Cause the budget, we don't havetime to be doing research
shoots.
We want to be assured that youknow how to handle the type of
(09:03):
like again, you want to go andgo to Victoria's Secret but you
have no lingerie shots or anypersonal model or something like
yes.
I love your fashion shots.
And I'm not saying that youcan't get hired if you don't
have those things, but nowadayspeople want to see that visual
proof.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, that makes total sense.
Ok, so I want I talk about thisa lot too.
I want to touch on the why youyou just mentioned it really
quickly.
That's a really big piece of mycoaching as well.
It's like a foundational thingbecause, again, people come to
me too with whether they'reself-taught or not.
I mean, I, I, you know I workwith photographers who have gone
to school as well but there'salways this side of it's not
(09:42):
even just the business.
They might even have like adecent understanding of like
okay, is this essentials thatthey need to do, but like that
marketing piece is really reallyhard for us creatives.
Like just in general, I havefound across the board, as I'm
sure you have seen too, becauseyou're this artist and you're a
creative and you want to go outand do, but then at the same
(10:03):
time, it's like, okay, well,this is just a really expensive
hobby unless I figure out how to, you know, make some money in
this.
So this marketing piece, Ireally believe, too, that it
starts with this.
Why a deep understanding?
And I always tell people likeyou've been living it.
It's just about us taking outthis highlighter and like
highlighting it and being veryintentional about what that is.
(10:24):
So I want to like ask you whatyou do, cause I mean, I'm coming
from like the portrait world,mainly right, and I work with
creatives of all kinds, butmainly portrait photographers.
With that in your world andwhat you do, because you, you
essentially are the personpulling people in jobs, right,
how do you know, first of all,like when you're looking for
(10:46):
looking at photographers let'sjust say for work, for for you
know, a campaign, um, how canyou tell they know their?
Why can you?
When it looks, cohesive.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
It's like it's hard to spring to put in a thing, but
when you look at a website,when you look at a portfolio
piece, when you look at a pieceof art, even like a t-shirt, you
know, just put yourself in thatplace of when you're trying to
find something and you're likethat's it.
That, versus like, ooh, this isnot good quality, this is not
you.
Everyone can know what's goodand bad, and for me it's like
(11:16):
even if I'm not like a fan ofthe work.
If you have like a cohesivenessto your work where I understand
your point of view, I can stillappreciate it.
I might not be like this is notmy top key and I'm not going to
hang it on my wall, but you seeit, you can't put into words,
you just see it.
And this is why when you say ofknowing your, why you're
(11:36):
preaching and speaking mylanguage because it is not
taught enough when you're justkind of picking up the camera,
you're just learning technique,you're looking at, you know
people and you're trying toemulate.
And it's good to emulate and belike figure out the lighting
and stuff like that.
But I would say you need toremix it.
And who are you?
What is your unique visual eye?
And I always say this is whyyou need to know your, why and
(11:56):
who you are as an artist.
You need to know whyphotography?
Why is that the medium you havepicked to creatively express
yourself?
Because on our side, yes, we'relooking for technical precision
and it's good that you mightknow how to shoot everything,
but I always say, if you'retrying to be everything to
everyone, then you're no one.
And this is why at Harpware, weare on our side.
(12:17):
We get a creative brief andwe're always trying to find
photographers that are going tomatch it.
And it doesn't mean you go andcopycat because you don't want
to be the cheap version ofsomeone else.
But again, you know, we're justlike.
We're fans too.
We want to look at greatphotography.
We want to see artistry in yourwork.
Photography is an art.
I will die in a cell.
(12:38):
I'm team photo.
People will like undervaluephotography, but they want it.
They want to cheap out on it.
I get this every day wherethey're like hey, we want the
Mona Lisa, like here's 5 cents.
And I'm like here's 5 centsworth.
Okay, here, get your mom totake a picture.
Oh, you don't like it?
Yeah, cause as a photographerphotographers, listen you should
(13:00):
be charging your worth becauseyou are providing a skill and
art.
We're not looking for someone.
Like I always say, almosteveryone knows how to use a
camera.
Not everyone knows how to takea picture and at the end of the
day, if you are just in it for,like, I just want to make big
bucks that's what they come tome with.
Like you know, and I want tomake a lot of money You're going
(13:21):
to die, you're going to die.
You're going to die Like thepeople who are on top of the
game.
When you see, when you'resaying like, ooh, that's it.
There's a passion by it,because you cannot just
manufacture that 24 seven ofcreating beautiful work and
being able to see the light inthe, in the shapes, and then
there's a passion behind thatcrap.
It is hard work, but the payoffof this, that end product, and
(13:44):
there's so much truth to like.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
When I go into like this why and purpose work with
clients, we always sort of likekind of go into and I always
tell them like very much like aSimon Sinek girl, right, it's
like okay, that's kind of why,like, let's start with, like,
your legacy, your pet, like justin general, your photography is
just how you express that.
Okay, but we're going to getspecific about it.
(14:06):
But, like, taking evenphotography outside of it, what
are you even about?
Right?
Because, like, we live in sucha saturated world like social
media, everything we're likeinundated with ads and
everything everywhere.
So it's very hard for creative,spicy brains to stay in their
lane, like to really hone in onwhat this is and like stand in
(14:30):
the confidence of knowing, likewhat this is about for you,
really living that passion and,you know, like letting it sort
of like ooze through you.
(14:50):
I really believe that that iswhy marketing is so hard for so
many of us is because we're justgrasping at straws at that
point and hoping that, oh, I canbe this person you know for
that one, or I can be thisphotographer for that person.
It's like no, no, no strongsense of you, your brand and
your why has to come out of you,and I know you harp on this a
(15:11):
lot in the book and you even saya lot about like okay, you see
photographers getting passedover all the time, not because
they're not talented, butbecause they're not prepared,
they're not polished and they'renot priced properly, and you
touched on that a little bit.
But I want to kind of dive moreinto that, because this is also
something I see a lot of howphotographers are like don't
(15:33):
they don't feel confident to?
charge what they need to becharging, what.
There's so much competition andall of this.
Let's talk about that for alittle bit, because I can see
how it is on my side in here.
You know the portrait world andeven in the headshots and
things like that, but where youare it's a whole different sort
of world.
You're working with biggerbrands, bigger budgets, things
(15:54):
like that.
Why is it so important forphotographers who want to get
into that line of work to reallymake sure they have all of
those pieces dialed in,including the price point?
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Because, again, you get like one person's impression
and I always tell photographersremember there's usually not
just one sole person doing thehiring versus like maybe there's
a celebrity or high list talentor you know an exec to be like
I just want to work with thisperson and then that's what
we're doing.
Usually we are pitching you toa team and so if you're coming
(16:26):
to me, I might see a diamond inthe rough right and I know you
can do it.
But trying to, if your websiteis looking raggedy and it's like
broken links and it doesn'tmake sense, it's going to be
hard to sell you or pitch you toother people where they know oh
, I've worked with this otherphotographer and look at how
amazing how they're presenting.
They may not be the best person, they may not be the best
(16:49):
photographer, but because theyhave presented well, people are
going to call them like first orwant to work with them first,
versus maybe you.
And so what I tellphotographers?
Like okay, we take a chance onyou and then you're going to
come with me with a day rate ofa $10,000 a day Something's not
(17:09):
commuting, because I know I workwith photographers who charge
that and you look at their,their work and what they produce
.
It correlates and before you'reeven thinking about what your
price point is.
This is why I have a wholechapter in the book.
You have to understand yourfinances first, understand how
much.
What is that minimum?
What is that number where it'slike you're breaking even?
You're starting there and thenmultiplying up from there.
(17:30):
But first you have tounderstand your expenses.
You need to understand how muchincome is coming.
What are like?
You know the equipment you'rereading out like all that stuff
before you're even starting totry to price, because I I always
want for times to be empowered,because in the brand world some
companies might be like okay,and I always say a correlated to
the economy.
Where the economy is good,companies are spending.
(17:52):
They're like then the economy,you know okay we're having a
rough at it.
And then we're like I want tolook at the accountants coming,
like I'm looking at every line.
Where's this receipt?
Why do we have to have it fromthe brand world?
So I always say forphotographers, it's like you
need a charge of work, butunderstand, where are you at
(18:13):
first, talent-wise, if you feellike you're.
If you're not there, you keepgoing, you keep mastering your
craft.
This is why you know your, why,because, like I always say, kind
of piggybacking off of, likeyou know, of that foundation,
knowing what you want to bedoing, it's like take money out
of it but you still want to dophotography, because if it's no,
then you're not going tosurvive.
(18:34):
Because the ebbs and flows ofthis business, on this side,
when thinking about a pricepoint, when you get to the point
where, and again, the brandmight be like okay, cool, we.
When you get to the point where, and again, the brand might be
like okay, cool, we'll take yourday rate, and the brand might
be like, no, this is how muchwe're paying.
So if you understand yourfinances and know that baseline,
say you get the dream gig oflike okay, beyonce, but you know
(18:55):
that you're going to take aloss but you understand that
when I photograph and I can putit in my portfolio, that's going
to get me gigs and get me moreclients that I can charge at the
rate I usually would becharging and that's worth it for
you to take the loss versus,like, oh, this other gig that
you see all these red flags andthen everyone's scope creep and
they're micromanaging your deathand you're like, no, that's not
(19:17):
worth it.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yeah, no, for sure, yeah, you have to weigh those.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
And there's no precise like calculate.
I wish I could tell you likeevery there is no, because other
than like when I'm working inpublications and editorial side
there's usually around you cankind of find like rate sheets
and like what people like in theminimal and stuff.
But again, they're not onlyyour work and licensing, because
when you get into brand usuallypeople want buyouts and then
(19:42):
you kind of have to do somemental math.
It's almost like you know frommy side.
Sometimes we're encouraged andwe can share like this is our
budget, this is what we'relooking at, and then you're
you're in negotiation and thensometimes brands are like here's
our day rate, send us anestimate of what you think.
And I that's why I kind of havein the book where I take, an
approach of when you get thatkind of thing, when you, after
(20:04):
you asked all your questions totry to gauge like what are you
covering?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
What am I covering?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
And all that stuff right, kind of price it up, what
can I?
How can I get this job done atthe quality, at bare bones?
And then on the other end ofthe spectrum, okay, if I could
have all the bells and whistlesand then come in the middle,
because then you have a startingpoint where, okay, maybe
they're like, okay, we have thatbudget, okay, cool.
And then you know, okay, boom,I have enough to do it.
Or they might be like, oh, okay, our budget is this, so you
(20:32):
know what you can take out andstill do a good job and see if
you can meet there.
So that's kind of how I approachit, cause, again, every brand
is different.
But understand that if you'renot asking the questions you
know up front of, like you knowwhat is the budget, if they can
give you one, what is beingtaken care of and all that, so
it gives you more foundation ofbase to make a good estimate.
So I always tell advice for ajob would be the diligent Sorry
(20:55):
words this morning, and knowthat sometimes we cannot start
the conversation.
You have to do it Like you haveto email and prompt, and
sometimes we email to do it Likeyou have to email and prompt,
and sometimes email me thisoffline like, oh, okay, let me
just send it off and we can getthe conversation you know going.
But don't be afraid to beproactive and don't be afraid to
(21:16):
be like asking questions.
I think a lot of photographersget scared because, oh God, it's
my dream client, but they canbe literally fleecing you.
But if you understand, okay,yes, they're fleecing me, but I
get to shoot this major thingthat if I put it in my portfolio
it's going to get me attentionwith other clients where I know
I'm going to be taken care of.
Maybe it's worth it to you.
That's going to be individualto each photographer.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
And those questions are really important just across
the board.
I mean, like even in our worldtoo.
You know that can be a reallybig piece of it, especially with
, like you know, when we'reshooting like branding for like
a small company, things likethat, right, like, so you have
to kind of like lead with, likeokay, well, you know what's your
budget and hopefully they atleast give you some parameters.
Yes, exactly, usage is a realbig one in your world and a lot
(22:02):
of people who also do like evenheadshots and branding, so like
can you speak to a little bit ofjust like some insider info
real quick, because I want toget into the website stuff,
because, like, if you guys havenot seen our website and you
really should like your websiteis so bad, thank you to my web
designer, catherine studio seven70.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
I highly recommend her 100%.
Go to her.
She's amazing, I would say.
Always in the licensing side,from my experience, most brands
will want to have a buyoutbecause they're not going to
want to do the back and forthRight.
So you just have to make surethat when you're pricing I
always say again, think abouthuman nature.
We all do it, we all want todeal, but making sure it's fair
(22:40):
to you, where you can live withit, and I think what scares a
lot of photographers are youwilling to walk away, and that's
what gets people, when you'rein a scarcity mindset of like,
realize on our side we usuallyare respecting negotiations back
and forth.
I had an experience workingwith a colleague and it was for
a cover and they sent thecontract and then, like two
seconds later this thing wassigned and I'm like if you would
(23:02):
have read that contract youwould have known this was not
good for you.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
You signed away so you could tell like, ooh,
because they're eager.
And it's like they see, oh,this is major publication.
And it's like, well, you know,and I'm like y'all read the
content and don't be afraid tobe like, hey, what does this
mean, or what.
Or have someone else read it?
Or bounce, bounce back and belike I see this, I'm good with
this, but can we change this,can we change that?
(23:27):
And again, you may get pushedback and we always go on our
side and like that's why we havelegal teams and they'll tell us
like we can make thatadjustment, but this is a hard
no.
And then you as a photographerhave to decide are you willing
to accept it or not?
And that's an individual Cause.
I, you know, I always say a lotof photographers will be
screaming like you shouldn't dothat, and I'm like you don't
(23:48):
know what situation people arein or circumstances.
Yeah, if you have a trust fundand you can write it out and
stuff, okay, good for you.
Some people might not andthey'd be like, okay, this kind
of sucks, but I really need topay something which I always say
I never wanted a photographerto take a job, just to take a
job.
(24:09):
I always emphasize photographersbecause I was talking to a
group of students a couple ofmonths ago and a student asked
me what should I do?
I'm graduating and I say get ajob.
I want you to get a job first.
I am pro-lap, like I've hadlike with my sales.
I have a full-time job, I, I'mjust me, so I need to be able to
take care of myself and Irather photographers build on
the side while being financiallysecure.
(24:32):
Yeah, then, when you feel like,okay, I have a runway enough
where it's like, okay, I'm goingto try this for a year, okay,
then go ahead, leave and thenpursue it, knowing that there's
no shame.
You can always go back to anine to five job, but again,
that's.
I say it's always an individualdecision, because I say I don't
know your situation.
So it's like, yeah, this is whyyou have to go back to knowing
your whys and your values.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah, you got to really start a strong foundation
of knowing and also likeknowing where you want to be
Right, like even you don't haveto like project five, 10 years
out, but like, okay, a year fromnow, like what exactly would
you like this to look?
So you have something to worktoward I think is important to
(25:15):
you.
But no, that's all really goodadvice.
And as creatives, just ingeneral, I think you know like
my son just graduated with abachelor's in guitar performance
from Berkeley.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Okay, he's an artist.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
He knows he's like okay, I gotta keep working my,
my, my job that I've got, youknow, and you know, keep getting
those gigs.
That's just my husband's anactor, like a writer, you know,
I feel like in my family it'sjust sort of always been like
our way of life, Cause I'm aphotographer, all of these
creatives and it is.
It can be like a really diceylife, Like it really can, and we
(25:45):
live in LA.
It's not easy to do this Right.
So like it's one of thosethings where, like for me, when
I started my business, I neededthis to work.
Like it was one of those thingswhere I was like, okay, if I'm
going to do this, like it needsto work, it needs to be
profitable.
It wasn't doing it just for themoney, obviously, because I
love it, but like I also wasn'twilling to do it for free
because it was taking time awayfrom my kids, my life, all of
(26:07):
those things, and so I had toreally lean on, okay, like why
am I really wanting to do?
this and how can I build it in away that is profitable but also
meaningful, you know, not justfor me but for my clients, and I
feel like not enoughphotographers and maybe you know
, like you said, like kind ofcoming out of college or school,
it might be one of those thingswhere, like you really do need
(26:29):
to take a minute.
Take a minute and really assess, like where that, where you
want this to to be in a year,set some small goals for
yourself at least, but don'ttake that eye, don't take your
eye off the prize is kind ofwhat I always tell people Like
how bad, do you really want this?
Speaker 1 (26:44):
And that's why I wish like at schools.
And this is why I always say Ifeel like self-taught
photographers have like a littleedge because, again, most of
them go into it where it's likeI'm making a whole career pivot
and stuff like that.
So I need to understand thebusiness, I need to understand
how to price myself, so you havethat drive and focus, not
saying like when you go toschool you don't have that drive
and focus, but it's likebecause it's like and again,
(27:06):
this is why I love my schoolit's like all about
experimenting and stuff.
And I think that's good for,maybe, your freshman sophomore
year.
But if you're going into itlike I'm going to graduate with
a degree, junior year, we shouldbe talking about okay, what's
your why?
What are you ultimately doing?
Not saying you have to belocked in, but say you want to
be a portrait photographer Okay,what time Do you want to be
lifestyle?
Do you want to be fine art?
(27:31):
Do you want to be shootingcelebrities?
Do you want to be shooting?
Maybe it's nonprofit, maybe youwant to go more
photojournalistic, to startexploring that, and what does
that mean?
So, what are those publicationsor brands you want to be
working with?
What's the kind of work youwant to be producing ultimately?
Speaker 2 (27:43):
right.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
And understanding how to get there, knowing that you
can pivot, but you need to havea direction and a path.
And then leading into thenunderstanding, okay, say, I want
to be a high-end fashionphotographer and I want to shoot
for Vogue and W and I want toshoot for Chanel and stuff like
that.
Then this is now going to belike okay, you have the
(28:05):
foundation and framework.
Now to then, when you were kindof going into, what you want to
talk about next is website andwhat you need to be thinking
about and how you're presentingto these brands, and that's a
perfect segue.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
And clients you want to attract.
Yes, and that's why I thinkthat this is like I've had.
You know, I've hadconversations before here on the
podcast, you know, aboutwebsites and specifically SEO.
But I want to really kind ofdive into this, because you talk
about this a lot.
I'm a really big believer inthis too, and I see portrait
photographers, websites and likemost of them across the board,
(28:41):
they're just, they're sort ofgeneric.
If I'm being honest, there'snot a whole lot of anything
dynamic about it.
You know it's more about like,trying to sort of like fit in
and try and be what they thinkthey should be.
But you talk about this a lot,especially in your world too.
But I feel like it's equallyimportant in my world, like
you've got to be, like you'vegot to have a dynamic website.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yes, think about if I was using my example because
I'm like, think about it.
Like you have a busted toilet,you need a plumber.
Now Plumber A.
You go to their website.
It's plumbing 24 seven.
You see the Yelp reviews fivestars.
You see, there they have like aYouTube of like here's how you
can do modern plumbing fixesyourself.
You see their services.
(29:23):
You see a phone number content.
It all works, it all clicks.
Then you go to Plumber Bee andyou're like okay, I clicked this
link, it's error 401.
Oh, so you run a pizzeria and ayou know acapella group and I
do plumbing like two times aweek and I can't contact you
because the page doesn't exist.
You know, just think about anyservice you're trying to get, or
(29:44):
when you're trying to comparedoctors or like stores or
restaurants and stuff like that.
You can go to it now and I'mnot saying that.
I will say there's some coolmama pops and there's
photographers, that, okay, yougo to their site and you're like
because they have a strong wordof mouth and they've probably
been in this industry fordecades and they have that
reputation that they can getaway with that.
(30:06):
But if you're new, this is whyand again I'm going to sound
like a burglar and we're goingto go back to understanding why,
who you are as a photographer,because I can say a lot of
photographers get caught up inthe aesthetic in a sense of it
needs to be this First.
It needs to have great work,because your work is going to be
like this shining star andthat's what's got to hold it.
It doesn't matter how prettythe fonts are, doesn't matter,
(30:28):
because if the work is not there, if you do not have a coherent,
clear vision of who you are,like your visual eye, of how you
, your take on, let's say,portraiture, it's not going to
matter.
Yeah, so, like I said, theunsexy part of okay, when you're
understanding like I want to bein portrait and I will say I
want to do high fashion, then doyour market research.
(30:48):
See first those brands andplaces and clients you want to
pick up.
Do a visual audit of like whatare they putting out there, what
are they liking, and stuff likethat.
Then go to photographers doingwhat you ultimately want to be
doing.
You're not trying to copy them.
They're kind of yourcompetition but kind of not.
You're just going to see howare they presenting themselves.
Maybe you see oh, I see a lotof them using this terminology.
(31:08):
And again, keep in mind, yourwebsite is a living, breathing
organism that needs to bechanged.
So once you get data points,you can change and see what's
working for you.
But first, kind of start withthat research of looking at
photographers, getting the jobsand the clients you want and
seeing what's working, notworking, maybe what you like or
not like.
Going to your body of workfirst and then seeing okay, I
(31:31):
have all this.
After you have all theinformation, you calculate this
is what I ultimately want to do.
You can go and then audit yourwork and say, okay, these images
are working and arerepresenting what I want to be
doing and the kind of work Iwant to be getting now.
And then the rest, you know youtake that off.
I know it's painful.
Remember your website is amarketing piece.
You can't get too attached.
And if you get really attachedand you're like I don't want to
(31:52):
get rid of these pictures, maybethat's where personal projects
come in, because personalprojects can be personal
projects.
Or I tell photographers ifyou're really attached, just
make a separate site foryourself, put it on that and you
can look at it every day andyou see it on a website, but it
on a website.
But you have to really thinkabout the hiring managers or
your client, potential clients.
(32:15):
Looking at your site is amarketing piece, so you have to
avoid emotion to it.
If I'm like I said, I'm workingat Taco Bell and I'm looking
for a photographer to pitch, Ineed I'm going to your food
session.
Okay, amazing photographer, letme see what I can pull out of
the Mexican and tacos and nachosand stuff to show them like, oh
look, they've also done thiswork for this company or they've
done this personal project andthis will be cool.
You know what I mean.
You have to kind of put the hatof your viewer and the
(32:38):
experience and the first thingis going to be like does when I
go to your site, am I wild?
Yeah, and so this is where I gointo kind of the four pillars
of the website.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
I want to talk about those.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
When you go.
First the work needs to becurated to who you're trying to
attract and the kind of jobs youwant.
Then it needs to be easy tonavigate A five-year-old should
be able to navigate it.
Then I need to know a locationI would love to be, and it's not
like it doesn't happen.
Photographers get flown out todifferent places for specific
(33:10):
things, but lately and kind ofthe trend is, can we work with
someone local to save money?
Then I need to have a contactemail, not just a form.
I always say your websiteshouldn't be causing friction.
How long does it take someoneto find what they need to do so
with?
Speaker 2 (33:29):
the contact.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Get a contact email that I can highlight and copy.
Don't do that.
I get it, Like especially forfemales of like creepers and
stuff like that and I get andthis is why I say you don't have
to have a necessary phone call,Cause I'm not calling first,
I'm emailing before we're havinga call.
I'm not that forward or textingLike we can get into that later
(33:50):
about like etiquette of how youcan contact because you'd be
surprised, but have it where Ican just highlight it and then I
can just put it into the fieldto be able to reach you.
Now, you, I always say you canhave that form, just have an
email and a form, but just don'thave a form because people are
like I don't have I know it'sjust extra work where people
could be like oh, I can justhighlight this or you make it
(34:12):
linkable where it automaticallyopens the email that's chosen
and it makes it easy.
Like I say, your website shouldmake it easy for people to see
right away who you are and whatthey're wanting to look for.
And then, like some other tipsis like I always kind of preface
, like have an overview pagewhere people can just see right
away, like and this is your likeappetizer, where these are your
(34:33):
A plus plus images.
I always say think about it Ifthis image, this image, should
be able to stand alone on acover and a billboard without
explanation.
And then people are like Ooh, Iwant to dig in more, let me go
into the galleries.
Yeah, right, but the ultimategoal is you want to make it as
easy for people to get aroundand find what they need to get
(34:53):
and the question to ask is yourwebsite creating friction for
people?
Because if it's like slowloading times, like I get
impatient, like I'm likeeveryone now is like look, I
don't got time, unless I reallyhave to stay in this and find
this image or something, or toshow.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
No, I mean, like you can tell now, you know within a
few seconds, easily right Ofhitting somebody's site and I'm
very big on this, I see a lot ofphotographers that you know on
Instagram.
Let's say, right, Well, they'llfollow me.
I'll kind of like go to theirpage and just kind of see, and I
can't tell you how many times Ihave gone to click their link
for their website.
I can't tell from theirInstagram or their website where
(35:34):
they're located.
There's not one location on anyof this, None of it.
And I'm like, what are youdoing?
Speaker 1 (35:41):
People I interview for my book.
Again the same thing we need toknow where you're located.
Yes, you can work worldwide, Iget it, but sometimes we cannot
send someone from Italy to LAunless it's something special.
I'm not saying it's not, wepeople are never, are not flying
things, and I see it all thetime but it's like first people
are going to be like who can wework with locally?
(36:05):
Be cautious, a lot of peoplelike will want to be like by
close.
So like I work LA, new York, Iwork LA, miami, hawaii or
whatever Montana, idaho.
Sometimes I'm like oh my God,you work out of.
Please be aware, when you putthis is where you are located or
when you work local, we are notin our minds.
We see that, as we don't have topay for travel other than, like
(36:29):
you know, if you're taking anUber, a Lyft to the shoot or
something like that, but we'renot paying for a flight, we're
not paying for you to stay in ahotel, that's signaling to us
that you have a place and youknow you can get there as easy
and you pick up the costs onthat.
That's how we're thinking whenyou're putting that.
So I say be very careful whenyou're saying I work Hawaii,
that's good, so I could send youto Alaska, and you're in Texas
(36:53):
and you're going to pay for thatflight.
Where are you going to live?
You know we're not expectingthose charges to hit yeah, not
saying we wouldn't pay for itSometimes, sometimes we still do
, and stuff like that.
But the first glance of this iswhy it's important to have your
location and make sure you'reaccurate is that we're not
expecting that to be part of thebudget, because usually what
gets cut for the budget first istravel.
(37:13):
If we have to make some cuts,no, that's a really good point.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Okay, so, as far as the website goes, we talked
about those four pillars.
I think I agree with with allof those, and I love that little
piece about adding the email,even on the form, because you're
right, like, when you're addingfriction, you're creating these
roadblocks for people.
You want to make it as easy aspossible for people to get in
touch with you.
I mean, like, how much do youwant to work?
(37:38):
Right, like.
So I see, I see that a lot too.
Like there's no way to get intouch, there's not enough
contact, there's nothing listed.
A lot of photographers evenwill be like I don't want to be
in my DMs on Instagram.
Okay, that's a personal choice,I get it, but you also, like,
you have to know your clientright.
So for us, for me and I'll justkind of like segue just for a
second into that, just forlisteners who are like, let's
(38:00):
say, working with high schoolseniors like I am, or even like
wedding photographers you got toknow your client.
If they're finding you onTikTok or finding you on
Instagram, you need to befindable on those places.
Your website a hundred percentneeds to be there.
Do not skimp on that, but youdo need to be available, at
(38:21):
least whether it's an automatedmessage that pops up and says I
don't check these very often.
I check them every 24 hours.
Please hit me up here.
This is my email.
Like make it easy for people tofind you to book you.
Just in general.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
And the bounce back, like even for wedding
photographer any genre.
Think about it Like andespecially going back to price
point.
If you're going to charge thesehigh prices, yeah, okay, I
better be able.
People are going to stalk youever.
People are going to stalk you.
I know I do when I hire coachesand I've hired 10 000 plus
dollars coaches and stuff like Istalk them.
I'm like I'm looking at yourwebsite, I'm looking at your
socials oh, you got a podcast.
(38:56):
I'm listening to all that justto make sure we're on the same
vibe.
And check.
Some photographers are sayinglike oh, your websites are going
like no now there's some thatare.
There's always exceptionsthere's.
I always like.
Here's an art on my side oflike working with brands and
editorial and the secret for Ialways say, brands are always
looking for editorial feeling.
(39:17):
Now for photographers as well,cause they want that real enough
.
Think that kind of face versuslike what back in the old days
where it was like this iscommercial photography or brand
you know, for photography, Iwould say it's like here's the
thing you don't have to havelike a fancy website.
(39:37):
It can be very minimalist.
Like I said, the work is goingto carry it.
Carry it because there's aphotographer I know his website
is a Tumblr page.
It's just a scroll and he getswork and he worked for the top
brands and stuff.
But when you look, I met himand then you know, see his
aesthetic, and that's anotherthing of why you need to know
who you are as an artist,because for his aesthetic, it
works for him.
And if you know who you are asan artist, then you the website,
(40:00):
kind of.
Again, I think a lot ofphotographers get stressed out
or they put a lot, of, a lot ofemphasis.
Yes, the website is important.
This is why I always say lookat other photographers doing
what you want to ultimatelydoing, or other photographers
you admire and to see howthey're putting it.
Nothing is new and undestand.
It's usually just the same kindof format.
(40:20):
Maybe their navigation ishorizontal versus vertical, but
most of the time you have anoverview page and then say
you're a portrait photographer.
Then it's like here's anoverview page and then here's
portraits, and maybe they'rebreaking it down to outside,
inside or whatever Editorialbrand or something you know like
or you know hot, cold orwhatever.
How they interpret, like, howthey want to present the work.
(40:40):
But at the end of the day, Ialways say is still having that
cohesive portfolio.
Okay, yeah, that's holding thiswebsite together of why people
want to reach out to you andcontinue and want to work with
you.
So it's like even like that'swhat I say like in the space of
wedding photography, like peopleare coming to you because they
want to know your vibe, like, oh, your vibe like for my wedding.
(41:03):
Okay, I'd come to your site.
Oh, it's photojournalistics out.
That's the kind of stuff wewant and we're going to see more
social proof.
Basically, think of it likethat your website and your
social and stuff.
People just want to see socialproof that you can be consistent
, and so that's very importantfor branding, of making sure
that it feels consistent bothways and not just one-off, like
you just happily made that.
(41:24):
I want to make sure you can dothat again pretty much 99% of
the time, and again I always sayas a photographer, you want to
be hired for what you do versusa red flag of I like what you do
.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Can you do a 180?
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Like, say, like you're a black and white film
photographer and like we'd likewhat you do, can you shoot color
and digital?
All of a sudden Like, no, youwant to be hired and yes, when
you're working for brands, yes,you're going to have to play in
their sandbox, but when you lookat the end product, it should
still feel like 90% of youretouching all that stuff and
brand stuff, but it's stillstill feel like 90% you.
(41:59):
And if it's not worth it Now Ialways say you will have these
step and repeat clients whereit's like, paid by numbers, it's
not your dad, but you know youcan do it.
But it's like you see thatcheck it pays a mortgage payment
or a car payment or something.
You take those jobs.
You say thank you.
You just don't put it on yourwebsite.
Yep, I get you.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
You know I have a real quick little segue question
and before we get into I wantto kind of like, uh, in a minute
dive into your company, blackvisual queen, cause I love what
you're doing with all of thatand I really want to dive into
your mission there.
But real quick, I'm veryinterested to know what you've
seen on your side working withbrands and large brands.
(42:40):
How is AI imagery changing anyof this yet at all?
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I think again.
Ai is not going away.
So for photographers, you justkind of have to learn the tool
and make it work for you.
I don't see it right now takingover and you don't see like
other than Coca-Cola, cause yousaw what happened with Coca-Cola
they got like roasted when theywere like why did you hire?
Ai is being used as a toolright now to like okay, I need
an idea, I need to prompt it.
Or maybe can you summarize thisfor me or on our site Like okay
(43:07):
, instead of like creating aPinterest board.
Maybe when I'm going to a realset designer or someone who's
sourcing, I could be like canyou create something like this
Iceland dystopia kind of thing.
And at least I can give avisual of this is what I'm kind
of thinking versus trying tofind it, and it makes it just
quicker.
But I'm still working withhumans.
(43:28):
But I always remindphotographers we have been using
AI for a very long time.
Photoshop.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Google search.
When you pop in, it justautomatically pops in what
you're trying to guess, whatyou're trying to look for.
That's like basically AI basedkind of stuff that we've been
doing.
So I don't see it right nowovertaking where we're going to
get rid of the department,because people still and again I
think this was like a hugeboost with COVID of people want
(43:56):
human connection.
People want to still see humans,because I see it all the time
and all the socials people arelike.
When you look at Pinterest nowand it's like I look at it, it's
all AI generated stuff half thetime and I'm like ew, I want to
see something real.
I want to see a real fashionthing.
That's why I'm pinning.
So I was like maybe I want tobuy it, but if it's AI generated
it hasn't been made.
(44:16):
So what's the point of that?
I'm not.
So I say don't be fearful forit.
And again it's like genie isout of the bottle.
I compare to when you know,when the auto industry like,
okay, we're going to use robots,you still see humans on that
factory line, right, you stillsee humans has to oversee,
because what the robot breaks?
Right, and it's not functioningI always say photographers.
(44:38):
Learn it, see how it works foryou, like ai may be um useful
for like those admin stuff,helping you to keep up with the
emails and like accounting andstuff like that.
Creatively play with it.
Because I always say it's kindof like I caution remember when
photographers, when we had thatpoint when we went from film to
digital and people were like, ohno, I'm gonna always, and then
a lot of people got left behindand again people still use film,
(45:00):
yeah, people use digital.
There's there's a happy mediumand I see how AI like kind of
with the digital age.
When I remember and this islike my MFA days, when digital
art was breaking out huge in thegallery scene of people using
it.
That's why I feel like for AI,but again, ai can't replace
creativity, because I feel likecreativity is still connected to
(45:23):
your brain, cause even whenyou're using AI, you still have
to use your brain to think aboutit, to input it and to
understand how and work with itand finish it to get what you
want.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Yeah, and it's being trained by a human right.
So, like a lot of people, youknow, you see that a lot these
days are like oh my gosh.
You know, like Chai Chibuji islike constantly, just, you know,
giving me all these.
You know, yes, yes, yes, I waslike that's because you've
trained it to do that.
It's literally mirroring whatyou're doing and unless you
train it to challenge you, itain't going to do that.
So, like that's.
The other piece of it too isyou can use it as a tool, like
(45:54):
you're saying, to make yourcreativity better, to spark
ideas, but I'm glad that you'renot seeing it in ads at least
yet completely taking over.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
And to just just to add onto this you have to think
about AI is not a shortcut.
You still got to put work intoit and what AI will get rid of.
Ai will get rid of people whoare mid and below, because,
again, people will still pay formastery.
Okay, think about just theevolution of things, of you know
.
Okay, when painting was all therage and then the first camera
(46:26):
was made and people are like ohmy God, paintings are gone.
No, it made paintings go upbecause people still wanted that
craft and artistry of it.
Now, if you are a craft painter, you're like I'm not paying for
that, I could just take a photo, right.
So for AI, like a lot of peopleare like oh, I could just use
AI and I'm going to do.
You're going to see real quick.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
So that's why I harp on.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
You have to continue to master your craft because
people still want to pay forquality photography.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
That's not going away .
Speaker 1 (46:53):
It's just going to weed out people who are just
wanting to stay mid and below.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
That is such a good point.
I remember like cause I've beenaround, I've been doing this
since film days, like beforedigital came out, right Like.
So I remember that switch overand people were like oh my God.
And then the same thinghappened when the iPhone came
out oh my God, no one's evergoing to like, no, people will
still pay for master.
I really really love that youbrought that up, because not
(47:18):
enough people really rememberthat Like it's, it's true, it's
100% true.
There's things are going tocome and go, some things will
stick around, but people stillpay for that mastery level and
I'm sorry, but I really don'tthink that's ever going to
change.
And I also think that we shouldcontinue to evolve, because you
got to keep studying.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Exactly so.
It's like it's not going backinto the, the genie's out of the
bottle.
It's not going back into thebottle.
You just learn how to adapt it,you learn about it and you
learn how it can work for youand maybe maybe AI becomes part
of the process.
But AI is not going to.
It's again a lot, a lot ofpeople, I think why they're
(47:58):
freaking out?
Cause they're like oh, everyone.
I think it's more because noweveryone has access.
It's not like a subset ofpeople.
Now everyone can do it.
But then you're going to seereal quick where people want to
say I want to cheap out.
But then what kind of customersare you attracting now?
Yeah, I don't see people rightnow like especially, let's say,
for example, people in thewedding industry.
I don't see probably bridescoming.
Can you just AI and make AI ofmy whole wedding?
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Right.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Unless you're like an artist, armor guard or
something.
You're like I'm just going todo this, but no, I want photos,
real memories.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
Right, I don't want AI in my family and me.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
Right, I don't want to be in my family and me.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Yeah, totally Okay, I love that.
All right, let's talk realquick before we start wrapping
up.
I want to talk about BlackVisual Queen because I want to.
I love your mission here tochange the industry.
So tell me why you created that, what sparked it for you and
where do you see this going.
And I just kind of want to makesure that we touch on all this,
because I love what you'rebuilding for, like, this next
generation of creatives.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
I think for me, I started Black Visual Queen a
couple of years ago, in 2023.
I was at a career crossroad atthe time and speaking with a lot
of photographers and just beingin this industry, you know,
there's just a lot ofgatekeeping, yeah, and it's not
that, oh, I'm revealing like allthese deep dark seas or
(49:18):
anything, but it's just likethis is this basic information
that I think a lot of peoplejust don't want to put in the
time to just educate people andstill feeling kind of frustrated
, why haven't schools reallycaught up where?
For me, if I had my dreamschool, I'd be like we're going
to learn the basics of readingand writing and math, but then
okay, we're going to learn thebasics of reading and writing
and math, but then okay, we'regoing to start applying that.
Okay.
So for, let's say, like, inmath, we're going to understand
how to do taxes.
We're going to understand writea checkbook I was lucky enough
(49:40):
that I took one math, a model ofmath thing before I graduated
to understand here's how towrite a checkbook, here's what
loans are, and stuff like that.
Black visual cleaning for me isjust bridging that gap of like
real world knowledge andeducation of how we get it from
school or just self-taught andunderstanding how to make it
practical.
Cause, like, I lovedphotography but I didn't my
(50:03):
biggest frustration when Igraduated I still did not
understand what to do with it.
I didn't know you could be aphoto producer because a lot of
people in the creativeindustries you know they just
fall into it and someone justlike, hey, you want to do an
internship here and then youjust continue up the ladder kind
of like thing.
I've seen so many people like Iwas on set and someone said
here's a loop and go ahead, bein the photo department.
And then discovered how youcould be these different things.
(50:25):
So for me, my passion is justto open up those gates, provide
a foundation to always listen todifferent perspectives and see
what works for you.
There is no like in my book Isay there is no magical formula.
I wish I could tell you do aplus you know this and B and
it's going to equal C, becausesome people are picked up like
Beyonce picked that.
Tyler mature Boom, I just knowbecause I was at masterclass
(50:47):
when he was doing hismasterclass and boom, his career
soared.
You know, probably after a year, like a few years, of just
being in the industry, somepeople, like most of my friends,
they grind it out for like 10years or something and then they
finally get one hit and thenboom, the floodgates open.
So everyone's, everyone's pathis not linear.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
No.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
So I just want to provide a base of like for me.
I always say have a strongfoundation of just knowing who
you are, what's your why, what'syour like reasoning of being in
photography, Okay, and thenthis is how you should be trying
to present yourself.
If you're trying to do and Ialways say what I love about my
book is like it can go acrossdifferent creative industries.
(51:29):
I just did photography because,number one, there was no good
book about the business fromthis perspective from my side
yeah, it was always fromphotographers and that is a very
nuanced thing.
And one of the things that getsto my nerves is when I see
photographers like you can makesix figures and like, okay,
that's very nuanced.
And first, is that after taxes,that you said that six figures
and stuff and it's nuanced ofwhat's your talent level and
(51:51):
what niche are you in, becauseit can vary.
So I always say this is why I'mteaching the basic foundations
of building that strongfoundation your portfolio.
And then if you know your why,you know what you ultimately
want to be doing, the brands youwant to work with, then you
curate your portfolio.
It makes marketing so mucheasier because then you know
(52:13):
you're speaking their lovelanguage.
Now, again, on our side, it'sgetting smaller and you're
dealing with smaller teams andso they might not get back to
you right away or you rememberit'll be a long time.
Maybe you hear something.
That's why you have to havethat passion and hustle for this
industry, because it's thoseand rejections.
Speaker 2 (52:37):
Yeah, and I'm sure, like with what you were doing
and you know, sort of likeshifting this narrative, you
also have had a very, you know,not just the unique perspective
of of what you do and the thetype of you know work that you
do, but also being a black womanin this industry.
I mean, I'm sure that'sdefinitely been a journey that
you know like because, like,there's so much gatekeeping just
(52:59):
in general, but then there'sgatekeeping within the
gatekeeping, as far as, like youknow, like you, you go down
that whole sort of like minoritybucket Right, like, yeah,
there's underserved people in inour.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
When I started, it was very few black people being
photo editors.
I didn't know what to be aphoto.
I shout out to rob um, a photoeditorcom.
That's what I discovered, thatin 2008, and I've been following
him ever since he was a formerphoto editor.
So that's how I was learninghow to be a photo editor.
And again, I didn't know better.
I just because I had the driveof I'm gonna be a photo editor.
(53:33):
And then I graduated in 2008,and that's when the economy
tanked, and so that's whenthat's headstrong.
And about four years later,2012, that's when I got Southern
Living.
I just figured it out on thefly.
I didn't understand.
See, this is again thefrustrating of school, because
if I would have known after Igot my BFA oh, you need to be in
New York, probably more or LA,where those are some hubs of,
(53:55):
like you know, publishing Iprobably maybe would have got my
MFA in New York.
But I didn't know that at thetime.
So therefore I was fightingagainst.
Back then you had to have liketwo to three years of experience
to get a entry level job inpublishing, wow.
And so I was doing unpaidinternships in in between,
literally bringing my owncomputer just to break in, and
(54:18):
then once I broke in just tryingto figure out how do you go up
this ladder, and so that's likethe spawn of black visual queen,
of like being like the mentor Iwish I had, because even then
people were kind of liketerritorial, like okay, I'll
teach you this a little bit.
I got to keep my job, you knowkind of like territorial, like,
okay, I'll teach you this alittle bit, but I got to keep my
job, you know kind of thing.
And so that's what all blackvisual is.
It's just trying to educate and, you know, spread the wisdom.
(54:43):
Yeah, Fill in those gaps.
Power photographers you know,and let them know like we're
human beings on this side aswell.
But again, you know, my mainthing is we need your visual eye
and I just want to helpfacilitate whatever dream you
have.
Speaker 2 (54:58):
No, I love that and you do that in the book as well.
So you know you guys candefinitely.
I will link all of this in theshow notes.
I'll link her book for you guys.
The photo hustle it's a gem foranybody who wants to work in
photography, but even like justespecially for folks who are
like tired of vague advice andwant some like real direction.
And I also love how it'swritten.
There's some visuals in thereand it keeps our creative brains
(55:20):
, you know, like interested.
So I love, like the layout ofit.
I think it's just super welldone and I know we could talk
for hours about all these things.
But before we wrap up, you know, in addition to the book, where
do you like to connect withpeople?
Do you want that?
You know what I mean.
If someone has questions foryou, they want to kind of like
learn more about you.
Where do you want to point them?
Speaker 1 (55:41):
You can go to my website, always at
blackvisualqueencom.
My email is blackvisualqueen.
At gmailcom.
You can on all my socials uh,it's at black visual queen.
Try to keep as simple aspossible, but, yeah, email me or
like DME and all my socials onInstagram, on Tik TOK and and
LinkedIn, that's.
(56:01):
I'm also giving advice there aswell.
Speaker 2 (56:04):
Yeah, linkedin.
She's loves the LinkedIn andyou guys, we didn't even get
into that, but there's a lot,especially in this world that
she's in and all of you guys whoare just like branding
photographers or wanting to getinto that kind of work.
Speaker 1 (56:19):
Linkedin is like a really great source for that,
because a lot of businesses Ialways say LinkedIn a lot of
people are like we're poo-pooingand I got into it, like in
during the pandemic.
I was Instagram, just nature ofmy job and just being a photo
thing, but I got into LinkedInand again, a lot of
opportunities for photographershappen there.
If you show up.
(56:39):
And again, it's like being yourbrand and being authentic and I
always say, when you approach,you know how I hopefully,
approaching it, always go in themass and the mindset of being
of service and not like me, me,me, and not take, take, take.
It's like how can I help you,how can I be of service to you?
Because, ultimately, as aphotographer, you are providing
a gift, a service to helpsomeone you know with a problem
(57:03):
that they have and stuff likethat.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
Yeah, absolutely Okay , awesome.
Yes, you guys go check allthose links out below and thank
you so much for thisconversation, karen.
It was so great to meet you andchat with you.
Yes, likewise Thank you forhaving me Such great information
, karen, thanks again for beinghere.
I really loved all the placesthat we went in this
conversation and whether youwant to get into brand
(57:28):
photography, or you are alreadyworking in that world, or you're
a portrait photographer or acreative in general and you're
feeling sort of like the weightof the world, right, you know,
things are getting cut, like shehad mentioned.
Things are changing, things areshifting and so, as a creative
I mean I see it online, I hearit in my communities all the
(57:48):
time people sort of like lettingthe weight of the world really
sit on your shoulders.
If that's you, I really hopetoday's conversation helped you
shift that perspective, becauseI will die on this hill.
The world needs your art.
It always has, it always will.
That's not going to change.
(58:08):
If you look through history,the thing that gets us through
the hardest times is art.
Okay, there's a reason why youwere called to be an artist.
There's a reason why you werecalled to start the job, the
career, the business that youhave or you are dreaming about,
and that is another reason why Icontinue to do this podcast.
(58:31):
Right, I mean, I haveone-on-one coaching clients.
I work with group coachingclients.
I also still run a full-timephotography business, but I
really love being able to sitwith you guys once a week and
bring you insights from all overthe place.
Really, if you know anythingabout me, you know that I really
hate to stick to just like onething, because I do have a lot
(58:54):
of interests and I love talkingabout photography here, I love
talking about our business, butI also really hope that this
podcast helps you see a biggerpicture and expands your
awareness a little bit that30,000 foot view of, like what
you really could have and whatthis life and your business
could really look like, and tojust not give up.
(59:17):
Okay, cause the world reallydoes need your voice, they need
your perspective.
I know it feels really hard andreally daunting and really
scary, but that's why you cometo places like this to feel seen
and heard and where you knowyou find your communities.
And I really hope that you stayon your path, because if you
(59:41):
were called to do this.
There's a reason for it, okay.
So take it one step at a time.
Take it one small step at atime and you're going to get
there.
Obviously, if you need help, youcan reach out.
You know where to find me andyou can definitely connect with
Karen as well.
Go buy her book.
It's really amazing that allthese links for you are below
where you can connect with herand with me as well.
(01:00:03):
So I hope you guys have afantastic rest of your week and
go out there and createsomething just for you and be
good to yourself.
Love you, bye.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com