March 26, 2025 • 43 mins
Welcome to this juicy episode of Tried & True with a Dash of Woo! In this conversation with trauma-informed data analyst and operations strategist Kelsey Silver, we dive into how to track metrics that actually matter—without triggering your nervous system or falling into spreadsheet chaos.
At [03:15], Kelsey explains how our resistance to numbers often stems from trauma, perfectionism, and even sensory overload—especially for those of us with neurodivergent, high-achieving brains. You’ll feel so seen. Then, around [14:20], she introduces a unique metaphor that will seriously shift how you think about metrics—spoiler: it involves painting.
Stick around through [28:40] as we get into the real “metrics to track” in your business, how to simplify it down to just FIVE core numbers, and how to turn your curiosity into conversions. This episode is full of practical tips, brilliant analogies, and a little bit of woo. You’re gonna want to take notes.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I am one of those nerdy kids that would
desperately wants to be woo Like.
I want to be the witch in thewoods in my cottage, but I'm
just not good at it.
So I surround myself by wooers,and not the ones that will
stroke my ego, but the ones thatare into woo.
But I truly believe that yourhuman design, your, the, the
astrological orientations all ofthat is just different data
(00:25):
that we can use to help usinform our decision.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to Tried and True with a dash of woo, where
we blend rock solid tips with alittle bit of magic.
I'm Renee Bowen, your host,life and business coach and
professional photographer atyour service.
We are all about gettingcreative, diving into your
business and playing withmanifestation over here.
So are you ready to getinspired and have some fun?
Let's dive in.
Hey friends, welcome back toTried and True with the Dash of
(00:55):
Woo.
I'm your host, renee Bowen.
Today we are talking numbers,but do not stress, because I
have such an awesome guest whois going to explain it to you in
such fun terms, in ways I daresay that you have not heard
before.
I've got Kelsey Silver on theshow today, and Kelsey is a data
analyst and operationsstrategist, but really she's
(01:19):
here to make numbers make senseOkay, especially to us creatives
without stress, withoutoverwhelm or like the corporate
nonsense Okay.
So what she does is she helpssix and seven figure
entrepreneurs uncover hiddenprofit in their businesses and
she helps them make smarter,more value-driven decisions
without getting lost inspreadsheets or drowning in
(01:41):
metrics that they don't actuallyreally need.
She has a really coolbackground as well.
We get to that in the podcast,so I'll let you listen to
discover that, but she's notyour typical data analyst.
Let's just say that.
So I hope that the title oftoday's episode intuitive
metrics how to track the rightthings without the overwhelm is
(02:02):
intriguing to you, becauseyou're in for a treat.
I think you're going to learn alot.
This is super valuable.
You're going to want to takenotes.
So, without further ado, let mestop talking and let's get right
into this awesome, awesomeconversation I had with Kelsey
Kelsey, I'm so excited aboutthis conversation because it's
going to be so juicy.
My first question is, I think,probably a very top of mind for
(02:24):
most of us creatives is you know, a lot of us feel this
resistance when it comes totracking numbers.
We can even be triggered by allof that, right.
So why, in your experience, doyou think that is?
How can we shift our mindset tomake the data seem less
overwhelming and more empowering?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Absolutely so.
I'm going to give you a littlebit of background here because I
think it's really important forthis conversation.
I want to lay the foundation.
I am not a data analyst bytraining.
I'm actually a marriage andfamily therapist with a
trauma-informed background, andwhen I got burnt out on my
trauma work, particularlybecause I focused on adolescents
(03:02):
who had experienced sexualtrauma and resulted in substance
use that burns you out realquick I transitioned into the
administrative aspect and waslike how can I care for these
people that I desperately wantto care for in a way that won't
impact my own mental health andwell-being?
And I was able to do that byusing the data to figure out
better ways to help them, and sothat's how I really love to
(03:26):
frame it for people that areresistant upfront.
So I want to just set thecontext with that is this whole
conversation is going to be howcan we use data this kind of
scary thing on the side to helpus better care for ourselves and
our creativity, for the peoplethat enjoy our work, for the
work we do for others, andreally set that frame.
(03:48):
Now, why are we so traumatizedby them?
And I'm using trauma small there, but a lot of times there's
, with all things, trauma.
There's history that comes intoit.
So if you're like me and you'rethe burnt out, gifted, talented
, only child that couldn't getanything less than an A,
anything in your metrics thatdoesn't look perfect or that you
(04:08):
can't explain is going to bringall of those feelings of guilt
and unworthiness back up.
Bring them right to the surfaceand guess what?
If you don't have to look atthem, why would you do that to
yourself?
And then for others it might be.
You know I'm highly ADHD.
I work with a lot ofneurodivergent clients.
For some of us it's a sensoryissue, a visual sense.
(04:30):
The red, green, yellow sort ofcolor scheme that a lot of
metrics are presented in can bevery jarring to our senses.
Or it could be a learningsituation.
A lot of people are great withtables of numbers, but not
graphs, or graphs and not tablesof numbers.
So there's all these aspects ofwho we are and what we're
(04:52):
bringing to the table in termsof past experience that inform
how we're looking at our dataand whether our brains are
really open to understanding thestory that that data is telling
us.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Oh my God, this is so good.
This is so in alignment withwhat I talk about so much.
All of these different learningstyles.
I mean I can tell I know partof your background is that
gifted.
That is such a big factor.
I see in my coaching so manyhigh-performing women,
especially right we were thathigh achiever.
(05:25):
We are expected to be also likemany high performing women,
especially right, like we werethat high achiever we are
expected to be also, like youknow, I'm Gen X, right, like, so
that also has something that II serve a lot of Gen X women too
that are, you know, were raisedby boomers and we had certain
expectations and so, like a lotof that goes into it.
All of those things that youmentioned are definitely part of
my story, like all of them fora little bit right.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Welcome to the club.
You are not alone here, you arewelcome.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yeah, exactly, Thank you, and I love that because so
many of us are in that club andso many of us, especially the
perfectionism part, can likekeep us feeling stuck and alone.
But like, when we start to likeexpand that universe and
realize like no, no, it's not asuncommon right as we think it
is, we don't have to be isolatedin that.
And for me too, there was a lotof trauma surrounding the
(06:10):
actual learning of it.
Like I can track my math stuffall the way back to, you know,
sixth grade, when pre-algebraand I was taught by nuns in a
Catholic school and if youdidn't get it you were just
stupid.
I was like no, I just reallyneeded to be taught in a
different way.
Like not everybody learns.
So I love that you brought thataspect into it, because those
(06:33):
of us with spicy brains andthere's a lot of us I think that
kind of goes hand in hand withbeing gifted and self-aware and
intelligent we also have somedegree of spiciness in there.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Always.
Yeah, it's a spectrum right,we're all in on it.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
It's just where you land Exactly, and myself I have
my oldest son, who's 26, hasautism.
My other son has severe ADHD.
My husband's got severe ADHD.
I always say my family is likeneurodiversity soup.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Same over here.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, it wasn't until my kids were born and I became
a parent that I was like, oh, Ikind of think I might have some
of those as well, especially themath thing, and I just even
recently learned that there waslike math dyslexia, like right.
So wow.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
And all severely underdiagnosed in older women.
And when I say older, likeanything over 25, severely
underdiagnosed in older women.
And when I say older, likeanything over 25, severely
underdiagnosed.
Yeah, we're really, by the wayall neurodivergent studies have
mostly been done on white men Ahundred percent, and we're
really good at like making itwork because we have choice
(07:41):
right Cause of that conditioningand programming, and that's a
whole different conversation.
That's a different podcastepisode.
We'll record that in differenttime.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Okay, so I know that you see all of these different
things and I love that.
Your background, you know, isalso so trauma informed, because
, like you said, it might belike a little T but it feels
like a big one, right, and sohow do you work through that?
Some of those things likethat's kind of where I want to
start is like all right, how canwe, you know, calm our nervous
(08:10):
systems?
How can we what are some of thetools that you use, that you
suggest people use to to make itless triggering, so that we can
access these numbers, and thenwe'll get to some like data
stuff too.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Yeah, I got you.
So one of my absolute favoritemethods of therapy when I was
actually practicing wasnarrative therapy.
And narrative therapy is exactlywhat it sounds like.
It is telling a story throughtherapeutic methods.
And I use a lot of that work tothis day, because when
(08:43):
someone's like I don't even knowwhat I should look at, I always
say maybe you've heard of it inlike a high school psychology
class, but you use the emptychair method and you say, if my
business was sitting in thechair across from me and I could
ask it anything, I wanted toknow what would I ask it?
What do I want to understandbetter about it so that I could
(09:07):
nurture it?
And you kind of do a littleself-reflection, right, do I
want to nurture my business?
Do I want my business to serveme?
You kind of figure out whatyour business's purpose is in
your life, because it'sdifferent for everybody.
But then you ask it thatquestion what story do I want it
to tell me?
Because that's all that.
Numbers are your metrics are thestory.
They're the words on the page.
(09:28):
You get to write the endingbased on what that story is
telling you right now.
So when you sort of do some ofthese narrative activities and
think of your business assomething, as an entity that you
can really have a conversationwith it starts to turn on some
of those triggers in your brainthat are healthier than the
(09:49):
scary triggers.
Right, because we have goodtriggers and we have bad
triggers.
So let's start triggering someof those good things, some of
those safety nets, some of thatcuriosity.
I like to make fun of the factthat when I was in my corporate
career, my avatar, like thelittle icon of me, was Stitch
from Lilo and Stitch in aSherlock Holmes detective outfit
, because that's who I am.
(10:09):
I'm this quirky little misfitthat wants to just dig into
everything and figure everythingout.
When you adopt an air ofcuriosity which, as creatives,
we're so good at doing right,just being curious about it,
sitting in curiosity we're soused to that, bringing us
dopamine from the creative workthat we're doing, that allowing
ourselves to sit in curiositywith our numbers allows it to be
(10:32):
more of a creative process thanthis very rigid, scary,
judgmental process.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
I love that.
That's the first time that I'vereally heard that strategy.
I love it.
It can be super effective.
Knowing yourself, too, havingthat certain level of
self-awareness, I think is areally big one, and not trying
to force yourself to be whatyou're not.
So that can look like a lot ofdifferent things for people, but
(11:01):
it really.
I think it comes down to likeunderstanding, like how you
learn, how you processinformation too, and even down
to like what you were sayingearlier about the colors.
Right, like so when I do aspreadsheet, like I know what
colors I'm going to use, likesimple things like that can
actually really make a bigdifference, because, as
(11:22):
creatives, most of us are visualand a lot of us have, even,
like, a deeper sensorialrelationship with, like colors
and sounds and smells, like alot of us are, like have a lot
of sensory input.
So I think that that is, firstof all, totally okay.
Right For you to do like.
If you feel like, okay, I can'teven look at that.
(11:43):
That color is like like sotriggering, or red or green,
okay, well, turn to purple.
Like you know what I mean, likedo something.
That's going to feel a littlebit better.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
I've had clients who use like monochromatic, and it's
the lighter it gets, the less Ihave to worry about it.
So you know, normally you'dthink the darker the better.
No, no, no.
How do you associate that color?
Well, blue is calm for me.
I'm going to use blue and Ineed to worry about it.
The lighter, I don't need toworry about it.
(12:12):
The lighter it gets becauseit's harder to see and that's
telling my brain you don't needto worry about it, you don't
need to see it and it's a visualcue.
I've had clients who can't useline graphs because they know
themselves they're going to thesecond.
They see a dip, they're goingto want to dig into that dip and
it's going to cause anxiety.
(12:32):
And no, no, no, use a rollingaverage, and even that phrase
the fact that I just saidrolling average might scare you.
Okay, that's fine too.
Use what's in your wheelhouseof like.
Okay, let's say you're apainter and you have a palette
of colors that you tend to go to.
That's what you're known for,right, you're known for those
(12:54):
colors.
They feel good to you.
They fit in your hand.
You know exactly where on thepalette you want them to go.
Your numbers are going tocreate a palette for your
business.
Each of those metrics is one ofthe paints.
And when you put them into thepainting, that is your dashboard
, your spreadsheet you have tocreate it in a way that makes
(13:18):
sense.
Your paintings, even if you'rein abstract, even if you're in,
just throw it I'm doing airquotes for those that you're in
abstract, even if you're in,just throw it.
I'm doing air quotes for thosethat you're listening, throw it
on the canvas.
You're, you're stillintentional about it, you know.
And so the metrics that you'relooking at, first of all, you're
going to pick the right metrics, the metrics that matter to you
(13:39):
and to your business, becauseyou're not painting with every
single paint color that you have.
You're picking the right ones,and I know I'm getting very far
with this analogy.
My brain is now in rabbit holemode, but I love it.
So you, you are picking theright paint for the painting you
want to create.
You're picking the right colors.
That's what I call metrics thatmatter.
(13:59):
And then, once you have thosemetrics that matter, you're
putting them in a form thatmakes sense for your brain.
That's pleasing, that allowsyou to interpret it and again,
just like in a painting, manydifferent people can interpret
it many different ways.
You, as the creator, the onlyone that knows the true
intention of that painting, andyou're infusing the painting
(14:22):
with that intent, and you'reinfusing the painting with that
intent If you go in to creating,like when I go in to create a
dashboard for my clients, if I'mdoing a VIP day with them and
I'm creating a dashboard, if myintent is to show them all the
things that are wrong with theirbusiness, that's exactly what
I'm going to show them.
If my intent is to tell themeverything that's going great in
(14:43):
their business, that's what thedata is going to show them.
But if my intent is to sit incuriosity and find interesting
connections, that's where I findmoney for my client.
Oh, did you, you know?
Did we ever think about how,when your clients come to you in
this method, through thissource, they eventually end up
(15:05):
buying this thing from you?
That's really interesting, andso I know we got really into a
crazy metaphor there, but it'sso indicative of the intent that
you put into.
It is, in fact, the result thatyou will get out of it.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yes, absolutely, that is so cool.
Yeah, I know I is so cool.
Yeah, I absolutely.
No, I talk about intention a lot.
That's I feel like it's kind ofone of my buzzwords, but it is,
it's true.
Like the intention you putbehind anything right, it's like
what you put in you're going toget out, and so I love the
energy of curiosity too.
And just because there's thereis so much possibility there,
like what if there is a placewhere, like I don't know where,
(15:43):
this and I love that you helppeople find that that's that's
really cool.
So I do want to sort of likesegue into more of like the nuts
and bolts of what you do,because I think it's it's so
interesting because it's notreally how my brain wants to
work.
Naturally, you know what I mean.
I think I feel like it's superinteresting once we're talking
about it, but, like that's notwhere I go on my own.
(16:04):
So I know that, whether you'rea creative entrepreneur, a
photographer, an artist,whatever you know, as you're
listening to this, we hear a lotabout oh, you need to track
your numbers, you need to knowyour numbers, you need to do
this, you need to do that, right, but what are those actual
things like that you see,especially working with
creatives.
What are some of the?
(16:25):
I think that we get a littlehung up right On, like the
engagement metrics or thingslike that.
So what are numbers thatactually move the needle for our
creative business and whichones are just kind of like noise
or not as important yeah?
Speaker 1 (16:38):
So I like to divide metrics into five different
categories, and that alreadyfeels like a lot.
But I'm going to tell you rightaway you're going to pick one
in each of the five, so you'renever really tracking
consistently more than fivemetrics at a time, like, please,
for the love of everything,don't make yourself track more
than five metrics.
But it's the standard sort ofmarketing journey, right?
(17:00):
It's lead generation, nurture,sales and delivery.
And then I add the fifth, whichis revenue, because we'd want
to track that, we want tounderstand where the money is
coming from.
But in those five aspectsyou're going to pick one number,
typically in the revenuecategory.
I always like to suggest thatyou're tracking profit.
Right, it's the most informednumber because it's your revenue
(17:24):
minus your expenses and that'sit, just profit.
That's it, that's your revenuemetric done.
But then, when we get to theother aspects, if you're just
starting out with tracking yournumbers, just pick one.
You don't need to pick one ineach of the other four
categories or anything, just onethat makes sense for the stage
of business you're in.
(17:44):
And so I always suggest workingbackwards.
If you are established andyou've been around for a bit,
then probably you're picking ametric somewhere in the sales or
delivery aspect, and so, fordelivery, it might be what your
capacity is and are you reachingfull capacity, might be what
(18:05):
your capacity is and are youreaching full capacity?
Meaning I can book threephotography sessions a week, and
three weeks out of the fourweek month I booked all three.
That is a metric and that's areally great metric, actually.
And so I like to use thatexample because most people
think that metrics are reallycomplicated and that they have
to be some very fancy number.
No, no, no.
(18:26):
It can literally be how manysessions are you able to do in a
week and how many did youactually complete each week?
Divide those and guess what younow have a metric.
It's a really lovely metric totrack, especially month over
month or week over week, andthat's a perfectly acceptable
metric and a great introductionto tracking things over time.
And that's a perfectlyacceptable metric and a great
introduction to tracking thingsover time.
(18:47):
And we were talking about whatare the quote right metrics for
creative, and of course it'salways going to be an, it
depends, right.
But within those fourcategories, let's just dig into
those for a second.
So in your lead gen it's a veryjargony phrase.
So lead gen, in the way that welook at it as metrics, is how
do people figure out who theheck you are Like?
(19:08):
How do they even know that youexist?
And that's lead gen, right.
So, whether it's GoogleAnalytics are going to tell you
about how they're finding yourwebsite.
But that's a lot of information, that's a whole heck of a lot
of information in there.
So maybe you just start with howmany people landed on your page
because they actually searchedyour name.
(19:30):
Just start there and start tosee okay, is that increasing?
Am I getting my name out there?
Because, again, it's not justabout the intention but it's
about the interpretation.
So one of the ways that you caninterpret that, let's say that
people search Kelsey Silver andone month when I check my Google
(19:51):
Analytics, it's a thousand, andnext month when I check it,
it's 2000.
Okay, what did I do last monththat made my name more important
?
Because why else would someonehave searched my name?
And so we're again, we'reopening the door for curiosity,
right, let's get curious aboutwhat I did.
(20:11):
Oh, okay, great.
So I I got on a podcast, I wason Renee's podcast, and so
people knew my name and so theysearched for me.
This is good.
This is good.
Podcasts work for me and soyou're starting to connect the
dots.
That's.
That's legion.
When you get into nurture it's.
Are people trusting you?
Do they stay with you?
(20:32):
Now, if you have an email list,maybe it's just unsubscribe and
you just don't wantunsubscribes to get over one
percent, because that meanspeople are generally sticking
with you.
Maybe it's follows on KDP,right?
Maybe it's followers onInstagram if you have a very
Instagram heavy social.
So we talked before.
Well, most people think thatengagement metrics are
(20:54):
everything you have to trackonly if it matters for your
business.
But if it matters for yourbusiness, then it matters for
your business.
You know if you are sellingthrough Instagram and that's
where you get, that's where thelead gen comes in, right, if a
lot of the people are coming toyou from social media, then,
yeah, it makes sense to tracksome of those social media
(21:14):
metrics.
But if your leads aren't comingfrom social, then don't bother
yourself with them.
Dabble, have fun, enjoy, butyou don't have to focus on them.
And so it's this path of goingthrough each of these four and
getting curious about where arethings coming from, where am I
doing this activity and how canI figure out what's working?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
within that activity.
Yeah, and I just want tointerject really quickly while
we're on this subject for thephotographers who are listening.
I talk about we need to be kindof focusing on for what I do as
, like, a boutique photographerand that's also what I teach.
Right, there's like three.
I call it like the trifecta.
It's SEO, which you touched on alittle bit of like, okay,
looking at Google analytics andlooking at all of those numbers
(21:57):
there or at least just some,right?
Maybe not all of them.
Social media is definitely apart of that for us, for most of
us.
I'm always talking about how itshouldn't be all of it, that's
for sure, but it definitelyshould be supportive, especially
depending on actually whoyou're speaking to as far as,
like, your ideal client.
Of course, then there's thisother aspect of it, which is
(22:18):
word of mouth.
So I want to kind of touch onthat for a second, because a lot
of people have a brick andmortar or they have, like, a
physical photography business orthey do a lot of like in their
local area.
You know marketing and you knowthat's what they rely on for a
lot of this lead generation.
So what are some of thosenumbers that that we might not
even be thinking about?
Speaker 1 (22:39):
So I come from a data brain.
I'm going to share this withyou, but do not be overwhelmed,
especially those of you who arelike what the heck is she
talking about?
I'm going to say some words.
There's going to be someabbreviations here, but we'll
get to it.
My favorite thing to do withpeople who have word of mouth as
(22:59):
a primary marketing mechanismis QR codes that have UTM links.
Okay, what did I just say?
Well, first of all, we know inthe marketing world and in our
modern society that QR codesdrive a lot of traffic.
They're way better thanbusiness cards right now.
(23:19):
They're much more effectivethan someone having to type a
link.
Qr codes are where it's at interms of visual marketing, but
where people tend to fall shortis they use the exact same QR
code everywhere, that they putthat QR code and you're losing
so much data that way.
It's very straightforward tocreate a QR code, so it's not a
(23:42):
whole heck of a lot moredifficult to add what we call
UTM, and I have no idea what UTMstands for.
I call it a universal trackingmeasure, but it's actually
something much more odd that Ican never remember.
But I'm going to call ituniversal tracking number, and
so when you build a UTM you canput things like method and
campaign name and some keywords,and if you just Google, like
(24:07):
literally Google UTM builderGoogle has their own UTM builder
you put in all the things thatare required and every single
time it takes them to the exactwebpage.
Everyone's going to get to theexact same webpage, but these
little UTM fields that comebehind the website tell you, as
the person looking at youranalytics, where it came from.
(24:30):
So let's say that as aphotographer I have.
My best friend's sister is aphotographer.
She does all the schoolphotography, right, but she also
does dance recitals andeverything like that.
Well, if she has one QR code atthe dance company and she has a
different QR code atparent-teacher conference night
at her table, she can tell howmany people use those two
(24:54):
different QR codes based on theUTM link.
So she can start to get an ideafor, okay, the people at the
dance company.
I'm constantly getting a steadyflow of people from that link
At parent-teacher conference.
They just grab the flyer andthey type in my link later.
So it lets you know where yourmarketing is being effective,
(25:16):
and even more so if you get intomore advanced analytics and I
encourage you that, if this isnot your wheelhouse, let someone
else do this for you.
If you have a VA, yeah, theylikely already know it.
I don't like to encouragepeople spending money where they
don't need to, but in truth,this is a place that will have a
high ROI for you If you haveyour analytics set up well and
(25:38):
you have someone putting inwhat's called key events.
You can then track whatpercentage of people coming from
each of these different sourcessign up for your email list,
end up purchasing from you, booka session, all of those
different things.
And that's where we start toget into one of those sales
(25:58):
metrics, which is conversion.
And when we know our conversionand we know what marketing
methods work best for ourconversion, it makes our
decision making so much easier,because isn't it easier to
choose between two or threethings you know work very well
than 10 ideas you have in yourbrain that you have no doubt?
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Yes, this is so good, so good.
I guarantee you, most of thepeople listening to this have
not even considered doing UTM.
Because you know, we see that,like if you've ever run an ad,
right, like you see that, likeyou know, there's like that
little thing that says do youwant to put UTM in?
But most people are like Idon't know.
I don't know what that means,and you know I've had micro
(26:43):
conversations here and therewith photographers about trying
to sort of decipher thisinformation about, like, where
are these leads actually comingfrom, even down to where, like,
a lot of us have a, let's say,referral systems, right, because
we have like really strong,ideally, word of mouth and sort
(27:03):
of like a foothold in our localmarket.
Well, wouldn't it be great tofigure out, like who those
people are actually, if they'rereally referring you, right,
like?
So the only way to kind of likedo that without using this sort
of system would be to go intoyour CRM, create, like a
specific contact form, adifferent one, link that out,
(27:25):
make a QR code for that and then, okay, that would come into
your CRM and you could maybe seebut that's also not telling you
there may be a lot of peoplewho are clicking the link and
not they don't want to send youa message, they don't want to
like sign up for anything rightnow, and so you can't just
really track otherwise, like theclicks, like you're saying, and
so this allows you to see howmuch actual traffic you're
(27:50):
getting and from where.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
This works really well for people who publish
books, like dropshipping booksor people who sell on Etsy,
because you don't have access totheir analytics, because you
don't own their website.
But what you do have access tois like, if you've got a link
tree, you do have access to theGoogle Analytics of the link
(28:15):
tree.
I always suggest that you makeyour own link tree on your own
website, you know.
But if you know, if you put aUTM in all the different places
that you link to your link treewith proper UTM things behind it
, and then you set up those keyevents on that link tree page,
you then know, hey, all of myInstagram clicks end up going to
(28:39):
this particular book.
Did I post a reel about thatbook the other day?
I wonder what's going on there?
Oh, look, that reel did.
And then you get to follow thepath, right, but without having
the UTM and those key eventsshow up.
You know someone's just goingto your Etsy page and then
you've got no idea how theyended up there and you lose all
(29:01):
of that information.
That again, it's a little morework on the front end to set up,
but there's relief in knowing,oh, I don't have to worry about
this marketing aspect, like I'mstressing myself out,
advertising this on Instagramand it works so well.
On threads, why don't I just doit all through thread?
(29:24):
And you want to still staydiverse?
Obviously, right, we don't wantto put all our eggs in one
basket, especially with theprice of eggs, so we want to
keep experimenting becausethings shift.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
But, my goodness, the relief when you say you know
what, right now I don't need toworry about that, yes, exactly,
and like that is such a hugefactor when we're seeing, you
know, so much creative burnout,like that's the the, the relief
is there and yeah, it is.
It is some work on the frontend, it's.
It's probably not something youlove to do, but getting it done
(29:59):
then you're done.
You know what I mean, like notsomething that you constantly
have to, you know, be generating, but just to sort of backtrack
a little bit, cause I know I'llprobably get some questions
about this.
Google has their own systemwhere you can go and you can
create UTM links.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yes.
So if you, if you just Googlecause, you know let's get very
meta here without actually themeta of the business If you
Google, you just Google UTMbuilder there's hundreds of them
.
Just pick one of the top two.
Utm is a standardized practiceacross the internet.
It's a way for websites tounderstand these little key
(30:42):
phrases.
So even if you get, you know, aUTM builder from your CRM, that
will work exactly the same andjust start using UTMs in your
practice, even if you don't havethe analytics set up yet,
because some of these things donaturally come over even with
very little setup, as long asyou have your Google Analytics
(31:03):
tag on your website.
So, like that's the minimum,like we're talking minimum
viable product, use the UTMbuilder and make sure your
Google tag is on all the pagesto your website.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Ok, so now that we have our numbers, now that we
have some numbers and you knowwe're kind of feeling a little
bit better about the data thatwe're getting and the metrics.
Okay, Now, right, Like, so whatdo we do with those numbers and
like take, you know, alignedaction with them?
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Yeah, so I always suggest that you keep your goals
small and you keep them few.
So what are you curious aboutin your business?
We're keeping our thread ofcuriosity what are you curious
about in your business and whatwould you really love to improve
or iterate on?
(31:52):
Because, luckily, as creatives,you tend to be very into the
iterative process, the let'skeep building.
So let's hone in on that energy.
Okay, I'm going to give anexample and we can go into more
detail with that and example ifnecessary.
But so, okay, I'm reallycurious about who.
You mentioned boutiquephotography who really tends to
(32:14):
book those sessions?
Okay, particularly my higherticket session.
Ok, and I've got my numbers setup and I'm starting to notice
that social seems to really bedriving that conversion, and
I've got this set up, that Iknow it's conversion.
Ok, then you take it a stepfurther and we're just following
(32:37):
the curiosity of the data.
Ok, I want to improve myconversions from social.
Okay, so you know that yourconversion rate from someone who
clicks your link to actuallybooking is 10%.
What tweaks, what small tweaks,could we do to increase that to
(32:59):
15%?
Look at your highest convertingreels, because if you've got
UTM links set up, guess whatyour highest converting reels?
What was the messaging in thatreel?
What angle did you use in thatreel?
Let's replicate that again andsee if we get a similar
conversion rate.
And so we're playing withiterating.
(33:20):
I come from a continuousquality improvement background.
That's where a lot of mytraining rest in my corporate
career, and so it's looking atwhat small changes can we make
consistently that end up havingbig impact, because if you try
to revamp everything at once,it's just too many variables,
(33:40):
too many cooks in the kitchen.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Totally Okay.
Yeah, definitely.
Breaking it down is a highlydesirable piece of information.
Yeah, no, that's, that'sawesome.
I love that.
And I would love to know too,real quick.
I've been doing this for awhile and I and you and you see
the underside of a lot ofbusinesses, underside of a lot
(34:04):
of businesses, and so you know,just from that perspective, what
are some like maybe out of thebox or like surprise moments
that you've had.
That I mean obviously withoutlike sharing.
You know, yeah, stupid detailsof the client, but you know like
things that you've seen thatyou were like, oh, that's
unexpected and that'sinteresting, like I love those
stories.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
My favorites are the oh, here's a subpopulation that
we could really tap into.
Those are truly my favorites.
So a lot of times, particularlywhen a business already has UTM
set up or some basic analyticswhen I do a VIP day, because
that's my primary service, Icome in and I really get to
spend the day being curious andso I try to look at things that
(34:41):
the business owner probablyisn't looking at yet and connect
those different dots.
And so my favorite is we had, Ihad a client who there was an
entire subgroup of herpopulation that, okay, the
population was a hundred butonly two would convert to her
program, so it was a 2%conversion rate.
(35:02):
Obviously these numbers arefake 2% conversion rate of that
total population into herprogram.
But her program was made up of80% of people in that population
, meaning that while that totalpopulation and they had
(35:22):
purchased another product justto be very clear.
So like we're not getting superconfused on what I'm talking
about but like people whopurchased this product, they
perfectly went into her otherprogram but they didn't know
about it and so they weren'tconverting like they were the
perfect fit because they weresome of the only people
(35:44):
purchasing that primary program.
But let's increase thatconversion rate.
Let's get 10 percent of thatpopulation, a coupon code for
that small population that endedup being like less than her
affiliate fee anyway andincreased that conversion rate.
(36:06):
It cost her less money, she gothigher conversions and she just
needed to be curious about that.
That one piece of information,that one population.
So really for businesses,particularly those that have a
brick and mortar present,getting curious about where your
people are really coming from,especially the ones that end up
(36:31):
following through with booking,that's probably the biggest
place you'll find surprises.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Sweet.
Yeah, that's really really cool.
I love it.
And then I wanted to just Ithink this is so interesting
when we were chatting about youcoming on the podcast, right, so
your expertise obviously isuncovering these hidden
opportunities, launch membershipdata, helping creative
entrepreneurs maximize thatsuccess like we've been talking
(36:58):
about.
But you also shared something Ithought was really interesting
and I wanted to ask you toexpand on that, because my
podcast is called Tried and Truewith the Dash of Woo and you
mentioned I really love the Dashof Woo because to you you said
the woo is just other data thatwe can incorporate into numbers
to get even expansiveinformation, and I was like,
(37:20):
okay, you're speaking to my soul, tell me more.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yes, so the more is.
I subscribe to the belief thatmagic is just science we don't
understand yet, and Iincorporate that Now.
I am one of those nerdy kidsthat would desperately wants to
be woo Like.
I want to be the witch in thewoods in my cottage, but I'm
just not good at it.
So I surround myself by wooersand not the ones that will
(37:46):
stroke my ego, but the ones thatare into woo.
But I truly believe that yourhuman design, the astrological
orientations, all of that isjust different data that we can
use to help us inform ourdecision.
So if the data is showing yousomething really off and you're
(38:08):
into astrological signals,that's another piece of data to
help you interpret the morequote, unquote rational data
that you're seeing in front ofyou.
Your intuition is just otherdata to help inform.
The data is showing me thatthis decision is the right one,
(38:29):
but my gut's telling mesomething's off.
Well then, maybe you're lookingat the data wrong.
So all of these different bitsof woo are just other data
through which, really the kindof the filter glasses, right
Through which you can see thedata that's on the piece of
paper.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
I love it.
I've never heard it framed thatway and I absolutely am so on
board, because I'm alwaystalking about how it's like
these are all just tools in ourtool belt of self-awareness, and
the more self-aware we are, thebetter business owners we're
going to be, the better humanswe're going to be, just in
general.
The better business ownerswe're going to be, the better
humans we're going to be, justin general.
Like you know, yes, a lot of ustend to be super like these
(39:09):
neurodiversity peeps that I wastalking about.
All of us.
We tend to be pretty self-aware,but then we sort of also can
fall into that trap of like Idon't know what to do with all
of the self-awareness.
So that's obviously, you know,a different sort of step, but
what I'm talking about here isusing that as data, essentially.
So I love that you spoke tothat, because I'm definitely
(39:32):
nerdy as well, and I mean, likeeven down to AI and you know,
using all the things that wehave available to us there and
getting curious about how we canincorporate all of that to make
our data make more sense aswell.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Exactly, it's all about curiosity.
If there's one word to takeaway from our conversation, it
is curiosity.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Super cool.
I love this.
Okay, Thank you so much forbeing here.
This was awesome.
I know you've got someresources for people as well, so
feel free to share like whereyou like to connect with people.
I'll put all of it in the shownotes and then you know anything
that you have as well that youwant to share.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
I'll save the links here, but I will be giving you
some UTM links because you know,got to be, got to be on track,
practice what I preach, Right.
So my the best way to connectwith me and really have a
conversation with me my DMs arealways open.
On Instagram it's Kelsey ESilver.
Don't forget the E at someoneelse if it's not.
So it's Kelsey E Silver.
(40:32):
On Instagram it's me holdingthe entire Lord of the Rings
trilogy.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
You'll notice we're going to have to have a whole
conversation about that offline.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Perfect, my daughter's named after someone
in the books, so that's the bestway to connect with me, to have
a convo.
But I do have a freebie thatI'd love for you to get,
especially if you're really juststill unsure about what to
track.
It's called Million DollarMetrics.
It's the 15,.
I asked 15, six and sevenfigure business owners If you
(41:03):
were stuck on a desert islandand could only measure one thing
in your business, what wouldyou measure?
And they gave me their answerand reasoning.
So it's if you are completelystuck and have no idea what
you'd measure, here's 15 ideasof the only thing to start
measuring If you really had tostart.
And that is at kelseysilvercomslash metrics.
You don't need to eat all that.
That is at kelseysilvercomslash metrics.
(41:23):
You don't need to eat all thatone.
So kelseysilvercom slashmetrics.
But I'll get you all the linksas well.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Perfect.
Yeah, I'll put those in theshow notes for you guys so you
just like look there and even onYouTube, like you'll see them
in the description there.
So super easy.
Thank you so much.
This was like really fun andvery insightful, so I appreciate
it.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Thank you so much.
This was like really fun andvery insightful, so I appreciate
you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
This was an absolute pleasure.
I told you you were going tolearn some things and I told you
you were going to feel betterabout numbers, right?
That was such a juicy episode.
We went to a lot of differentplaces.
I hope that it made sense foryou.
Like, as we were chatting, Iwas like, oh my gosh, this is
going to.
I could I can just kind of seethe takeaways, you know,
happening in real time, not justfor you, but for me, right?
(42:08):
So I'm a creative, I totallyget it, and data is something
that I love.
I love the idea of trackingdata and I love the idea of
finding money.
That is so freaking cool, butyou just get lost in it
sometimes, right, and so you canget to this place where it's
like, yeah, that sounds great,but I don't know where to even
start with that.
So I hope you now have a placeto start.
(42:29):
I actually know you have aplace to start.
You just need to make sure youtake the steps to do it.
So go ahead and hit the linksfor her below, follow her, get
that free resource, and just.
At least.
I hope this helped you reframeyour conversation about data and
metrics in your business and,of course, I want to hear all
your takeaways.
So go to rate this podcastcom.
(42:50):
Slash Renee Bowen to leave areview.
Rate us.
You can do it for any platformfrom there, so it makes it
really easy, and I'd love tohear your takeaways on Instagram
.
Hit me up over there at ReneeBowen.
Just DM me.
If you've got some feedback orinsights that you loved and if
you want to share about thisepisode, you can do that and tag
(43:10):
me and you might win something.
All right, I hope you guysloved that, enjoyed it, and I
hope you have a great rest ofyour week as well.
All right, go do some goodstuff and do something good for
yourself.
I'll see you next time.
Love you, bye.
I am one of those nerdy kids that would
desperately wants to be woo Like.
I want to be the witch in thewoods in my cottage, but I'm
just not good at it.
So I surround myself by wooers,and not the ones that will
stroke my ego, but the ones thatare into woo.
But I truly believe that yourhuman design, your, the, the
astrological orientations all ofthat is just different data
(00:25):
that we can use to help usinform our decision.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to Tried and True with a dash of woo, where
we blend rock solid tips with alittle bit of magic.
I'm Renee Bowen, your host,life and business coach and
professional photographer atyour service.
We are all about gettingcreative, diving into your
business and playing withmanifestation over here.
So are you ready to getinspired and have some fun?
Let's dive in.
Hey friends, welcome back toTried and True with the Dash of
(00:55):
Woo.
I'm your host, renee Bowen.
Today we are talking numbers,but do not stress, because I
have such an awesome guest whois going to explain it to you in
such fun terms, in ways I daresay that you have not heard
before.
I've got Kelsey Silver on theshow today, and Kelsey is a data
analyst and operationsstrategist, but really she's
(01:19):
here to make numbers make senseOkay, especially to us creatives
without stress, withoutoverwhelm or like the corporate
nonsense Okay.
So what she does is she helpssix and seven figure
entrepreneurs uncover hiddenprofit in their businesses and
she helps them make smarter,more value-driven decisions
without getting lost inspreadsheets or drowning in
(01:41):
metrics that they don't actuallyreally need.
She has a really coolbackground as well.
We get to that in the podcast,so I'll let you listen to
discover that, but she's notyour typical data analyst.
Let's just say that.
So I hope that the title oftoday's episode intuitive
metrics how to track the rightthings without the overwhelm is
(02:02):
intriguing to you, becauseyou're in for a treat.
I think you're going to learn alot.
This is super valuable.
You're going to want to takenotes.
So, without further ado, let mestop talking and let's get right
into this awesome, awesomeconversation I had with Kelsey
Kelsey, I'm so excited aboutthis conversation because it's
going to be so juicy.
My first question is, I think,probably a very top of mind for
(02:24):
most of us creatives is you know, a lot of us feel this
resistance when it comes totracking numbers.
We can even be triggered by allof that, right.
So why, in your experience, doyou think that is?
How can we shift our mindset tomake the data seem less
overwhelming and more empowering?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Absolutely so.
I'm going to give you a littlebit of background here because I
think it's really important forthis conversation.
I want to lay the foundation.
I am not a data analyst bytraining.
I'm actually a marriage andfamily therapist with a
trauma-informed background, andwhen I got burnt out on my
trauma work, particularlybecause I focused on adolescents
(03:02):
who had experienced sexualtrauma and resulted in substance
use that burns you out realquick I transitioned into the
administrative aspect and waslike how can I care for these
people that I desperately wantto care for in a way that won't
impact my own mental health andwell-being?
And I was able to do that byusing the data to figure out
better ways to help them, and sothat's how I really love to
(03:26):
frame it for people that areresistant upfront.
So I want to just set thecontext with that is this whole
conversation is going to be howcan we use data this kind of
scary thing on the side to helpus better care for ourselves and
our creativity, for the peoplethat enjoy our work, for the
work we do for others, andreally set that frame.
(03:48):
Now, why are we so traumatizedby them?
And I'm using trauma small there, but a lot of times there's
, with all things, trauma.
There's history that comes intoit.
So if you're like me and you'rethe burnt out, gifted, talented
, only child that couldn't getanything less than an A,
anything in your metrics thatdoesn't look perfect or that you
(04:08):
can't explain is going to bringall of those feelings of guilt
and unworthiness back up.
Bring them right to the surfaceand guess what?
If you don't have to look atthem, why would you do that to
yourself?
And then for others it might be.
You know I'm highly ADHD.
I work with a lot ofneurodivergent clients.
For some of us it's a sensoryissue, a visual sense.
(04:30):
The red, green, yellow sort ofcolor scheme that a lot of
metrics are presented in can bevery jarring to our senses.
Or it could be a learningsituation.
A lot of people are great withtables of numbers, but not
graphs, or graphs and not tablesof numbers.
So there's all these aspects ofwho we are and what we're
(04:52):
bringing to the table in termsof past experience that inform
how we're looking at our dataand whether our brains are
really open to understanding thestory that that data is telling
us.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Oh my God, this is so good.
This is so in alignment withwhat I talk about so much.
All of these different learningstyles.
I mean I can tell I know partof your background is that
gifted.
That is such a big factor.
I see in my coaching so manyhigh-performing women,
especially right we were thathigh achiever.
(05:25):
We are expected to be also likemany high performing women,
especially right, like we werethat high achiever we are
expected to be also, like youknow, I'm Gen X, right, like, so
that also has something that II serve a lot of Gen X women too
that are, you know, were raisedby boomers and we had certain
expectations and so, like a lotof that goes into it.
All of those things that youmentioned are definitely part of
my story, like all of them fora little bit right.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Welcome to the club.
You are not alone here, you arewelcome.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yeah, exactly, Thank you, and I love that because so
many of us are in that club andso many of us, especially the
perfectionism part, can likekeep us feeling stuck and alone.
But like, when we start to likeexpand that universe and
realize like no, no, it's not asuncommon right as we think it
is, we don't have to be isolatedin that.
And for me too, there was a lotof trauma surrounding the
(06:10):
actual learning of it.
Like I can track my math stuffall the way back to, you know,
sixth grade, when pre-algebraand I was taught by nuns in a
Catholic school and if youdidn't get it you were just
stupid.
I was like no, I just reallyneeded to be taught in a
different way.
Like not everybody learns.
So I love that you brought thataspect into it, because those
(06:33):
of us with spicy brains andthere's a lot of us I think that
kind of goes hand in hand withbeing gifted and self-aware and
intelligent we also have somedegree of spiciness in there.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Always.
Yeah, it's a spectrum right,we're all in on it.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
It's just where you land Exactly, and myself I have
my oldest son, who's 26, hasautism.
My other son has severe ADHD.
My husband's got severe ADHD.
I always say my family is likeneurodiversity soup.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Same over here.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, it wasn't until my kids were born and I became
a parent that I was like, oh, Ikind of think I might have some
of those as well, especially themath thing, and I just even
recently learned that there waslike math dyslexia, like right.
So wow.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
And all severely underdiagnosed in older women.
And when I say older, likeanything over 25, severely
underdiagnosed in older women.
And when I say older, likeanything over 25, severely
underdiagnosed.
Yeah, we're really, by the wayall neurodivergent studies have
mostly been done on white men Ahundred percent, and we're
really good at like making itwork because we have choice
(07:41):
right Cause of that conditioningand programming, and that's a
whole different conversation.
That's a different podcastepisode.
We'll record that in differenttime.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Okay, so I know that you see all of these different
things and I love that.
Your background, you know, isalso so trauma informed, because
, like you said, it might belike a little T but it feels
like a big one, right, and sohow do you work through that?
Some of those things likethat's kind of where I want to
start is like all right, how canwe, you know, calm our nervous
(08:10):
systems?
How can we what are some of thetools that you use, that you
suggest people use to to make itless triggering, so that we can
access these numbers, and thenwe'll get to some like data
stuff too.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Yeah, I got you.
So one of my absolute favoritemethods of therapy when I was
actually practicing wasnarrative therapy.
And narrative therapy is exactlywhat it sounds like.
It is telling a story throughtherapeutic methods.
And I use a lot of that work tothis day, because when
(08:43):
someone's like I don't even knowwhat I should look at, I always
say maybe you've heard of it inlike a high school psychology
class, but you use the emptychair method and you say, if my
business was sitting in thechair across from me and I could
ask it anything, I wanted toknow what would I ask it?
What do I want to understandbetter about it so that I could
(09:07):
nurture it?
And you kind of do a littleself-reflection, right, do I
want to nurture my business?
Do I want my business to serveme?
You kind of figure out whatyour business's purpose is in
your life, because it'sdifferent for everybody.
But then you ask it thatquestion what story do I want it
to tell me?
Because that's all that.
Numbers are your metrics are thestory.
They're the words on the page.
(09:28):
You get to write the endingbased on what that story is
telling you right now.
So when you sort of do some ofthese narrative activities and
think of your business assomething, as an entity that you
can really have a conversationwith it starts to turn on some
of those triggers in your brainthat are healthier than the
(09:49):
scary triggers.
Right, because we have goodtriggers and we have bad
triggers.
So let's start triggering someof those good things, some of
those safety nets, some of thatcuriosity.
I like to make fun of the factthat when I was in my corporate
career, my avatar, like thelittle icon of me, was Stitch
from Lilo and Stitch in aSherlock Holmes detective outfit
, because that's who I am.
(10:09):
I'm this quirky little misfitthat wants to just dig into
everything and figure everythingout.
When you adopt an air ofcuriosity which, as creatives,
we're so good at doing right,just being curious about it,
sitting in curiosity we're soused to that, bringing us
dopamine from the creative workthat we're doing, that allowing
ourselves to sit in curiositywith our numbers allows it to be
(10:32):
more of a creative process thanthis very rigid, scary,
judgmental process.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
I love that.
That's the first time that I'vereally heard that strategy.
I love it.
It can be super effective.
Knowing yourself, too, havingthat certain level of
self-awareness, I think is areally big one, and not trying
to force yourself to be whatyou're not.
So that can look like a lot ofdifferent things for people, but
(11:01):
it really.
I think it comes down to likeunderstanding, like how you
learn, how you processinformation too, and even down
to like what you were sayingearlier about the colors.
Right, like so when I do aspreadsheet, like I know what
colors I'm going to use, likesimple things like that can
actually really make a bigdifference, because, as
(11:22):
creatives, most of us are visualand a lot of us have, even,
like, a deeper sensorialrelationship with, like colors
and sounds and smells, like alot of us are, like have a lot
of sensory input.
So I think that that is, firstof all, totally okay.
Right For you to do like.
If you feel like, okay, I can'teven look at that.
(11:43):
That color is like like sotriggering, or red or green,
okay, well, turn to purple.
Like you know what I mean, likedo something.
That's going to feel a littlebit better.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
I've had clients who use like monochromatic, and it's
the lighter it gets, the less Ihave to worry about it.
So you know, normally you'dthink the darker the better.
No, no, no.
How do you associate that color?
Well, blue is calm for me.
I'm going to use blue and Ineed to worry about it.
The lighter, I don't need toworry about it.
(12:12):
The lighter it gets becauseit's harder to see and that's
telling my brain you don't needto worry about it, you don't
need to see it and it's a visualcue.
I've had clients who can't useline graphs because they know
themselves they're going to thesecond.
They see a dip, they're goingto want to dig into that dip and
it's going to cause anxiety.
(12:32):
And no, no, no, use a rollingaverage, and even that phrase
the fact that I just saidrolling average might scare you.
Okay, that's fine too.
Use what's in your wheelhouseof like.
Okay, let's say you're apainter and you have a palette
of colors that you tend to go to.
That's what you're known for,right, you're known for those
(12:54):
colors.
They feel good to you.
They fit in your hand.
You know exactly where on thepalette you want them to go.
Your numbers are going tocreate a palette for your
business.
Each of those metrics is one ofthe paints.
And when you put them into thepainting, that is your dashboard
, your spreadsheet you have tocreate it in a way that makes
(13:18):
sense.
Your paintings, even if you'rein abstract, even if you're in,
just throw it I'm doing airquotes for those that you're in
abstract, even if you're in,just throw it.
I'm doing air quotes for thosethat you're listening, throw it
on the canvas.
You're, you're stillintentional about it, you know.
And so the metrics that you'relooking at, first of all, you're
going to pick the right metrics, the metrics that matter to you
(13:39):
and to your business, becauseyou're not painting with every
single paint color that you have.
You're picking the right ones,and I know I'm getting very far
with this analogy.
My brain is now in rabbit holemode, but I love it.
So you, you are picking theright paint for the painting you
want to create.
You're picking the right colors.
That's what I call metrics thatmatter.
(13:59):
And then, once you have thosemetrics that matter, you're
putting them in a form thatmakes sense for your brain.
That's pleasing, that allowsyou to interpret it and again,
just like in a painting, manydifferent people can interpret
it many different ways.
You, as the creator, the onlyone that knows the true
intention of that painting, andyou're infusing the painting
(14:22):
with that intent, and you'reinfusing the painting with that
intent If you go in to creating,like when I go in to create a
dashboard for my clients, if I'mdoing a VIP day with them and
I'm creating a dashboard, if myintent is to show them all the
things that are wrong with theirbusiness, that's exactly what
I'm going to show them.
If my intent is to tell themeverything that's going great in
(14:43):
their business, that's what thedata is going to show them.
But if my intent is to sit incuriosity and find interesting
connections, that's where I findmoney for my client.
Oh, did you, you know?
Did we ever think about how,when your clients come to you in
this method, through thissource, they eventually end up
(15:05):
buying this thing from you?
That's really interesting, andso I know we got really into a
crazy metaphor there, but it'sso indicative of the intent that
you put into.
It is, in fact, the result thatyou will get out of it.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yes, absolutely, that is so cool.
Yeah, I know I is so cool.
Yeah, I absolutely.
No, I talk about intention a lot.
That's I feel like it's kind ofone of my buzzwords, but it is,
it's true.
Like the intention you putbehind anything right, it's like
what you put in you're going toget out, and so I love the
energy of curiosity too.
And just because there's thereis so much possibility there,
like what if there is a placewhere, like I don't know where,
(15:43):
this and I love that you helppeople find that that's that's
really cool.
So I do want to sort of likesegue into more of like the nuts
and bolts of what you do,because I think it's it's so
interesting because it's notreally how my brain wants to
work.
Naturally, you know what I mean.
I think I feel like it's superinteresting once we're talking
about it, but, like that's notwhere I go on my own.
(16:04):
So I know that, whether you'rea creative entrepreneur, a
photographer, an artist,whatever you know, as you're
listening to this, we hear a lotabout oh, you need to track
your numbers, you need to knowyour numbers, you need to do
this, you need to do that, right, but what are those actual
things like that you see,especially working with
creatives.
What are some of the?
(16:25):
I think that we get a littlehung up right On, like the
engagement metrics or thingslike that.
So what are numbers thatactually move the needle for our
creative business and whichones are just kind of like noise
or not as important yeah?
Speaker 1 (16:38):
So I like to divide metrics into five different
categories, and that alreadyfeels like a lot.
But I'm going to tell you rightaway you're going to pick one
in each of the five, so you'renever really tracking
consistently more than fivemetrics at a time, like, please,
for the love of everything,don't make yourself track more
than five metrics.
But it's the standard sort ofmarketing journey, right?
(17:00):
It's lead generation, nurture,sales and delivery.
And then I add the fifth, whichis revenue, because we'd want
to track that, we want tounderstand where the money is
coming from.
But in those five aspectsyou're going to pick one number,
typically in the revenuecategory.
I always like to suggest thatyou're tracking profit.
Right, it's the most informednumber because it's your revenue
(17:24):
minus your expenses and that'sit, just profit.
That's it, that's your revenuemetric done.
But then, when we get to theother aspects, if you're just
starting out with tracking yournumbers, just pick one.
You don't need to pick one ineach of the other four
categories or anything, just onethat makes sense for the stage
of business you're in.
(17:44):
And so I always suggest workingbackwards.
If you are established andyou've been around for a bit,
then probably you're picking ametric somewhere in the sales or
delivery aspect, and so, fordelivery, it might be what your
capacity is and are you reachingfull capacity, might be what
(18:05):
your capacity is and are youreaching full capacity?
Meaning I can book threephotography sessions a week, and
three weeks out of the fourweek month I booked all three.
That is a metric and that's areally great metric, actually.
And so I like to use thatexample because most people
think that metrics are reallycomplicated and that they have
to be some very fancy number.
No, no, no.
(18:26):
It can literally be how manysessions are you able to do in a
week and how many did youactually complete each week?
Divide those and guess what younow have a metric.
It's a really lovely metric totrack, especially month over
month or week over week, andthat's a perfectly acceptable
metric and a great introductionto tracking things over time.
And that's a perfectlyacceptable metric and a great
introduction to tracking thingsover time.
(18:47):
And we were talking about whatare the quote right metrics for
creative, and of course it'salways going to be an, it
depends, right.
But within those fourcategories, let's just dig into
those for a second.
So in your lead gen it's a veryjargony phrase.
So lead gen, in the way that welook at it as metrics, is how
do people figure out who theheck you are Like?
(19:08):
How do they even know that youexist?
And that's lead gen, right.
So, whether it's GoogleAnalytics are going to tell you
about how they're finding yourwebsite.
But that's a lot of information, that's a whole heck of a lot
of information in there.
So maybe you just start with howmany people landed on your page
because they actually searchedyour name.
(19:30):
Just start there and start tosee okay, is that increasing?
Am I getting my name out there?
Because, again, it's not justabout the intention but it's
about the interpretation.
So one of the ways that you caninterpret that, let's say that
people search Kelsey Silver andone month when I check my Google
(19:51):
Analytics, it's a thousand, andnext month when I check it,
it's 2000.
Okay, what did I do last monththat made my name more important
?
Because why else would someonehave searched my name?
And so we're again, we'reopening the door for curiosity,
right, let's get curious aboutwhat I did.
(20:11):
Oh, okay, great.
So I I got on a podcast, I wason Renee's podcast, and so
people knew my name and so theysearched for me.
This is good.
This is good.
Podcasts work for me and soyou're starting to connect the
dots.
That's.
That's legion.
When you get into nurture it's.
Are people trusting you?
Do they stay with you?
(20:32):
Now, if you have an email list,maybe it's just unsubscribe and
you just don't wantunsubscribes to get over one
percent, because that meanspeople are generally sticking
with you.
Maybe it's follows on KDP,right?
Maybe it's followers onInstagram if you have a very
Instagram heavy social.
So we talked before.
Well, most people think thatengagement metrics are
(20:54):
everything you have to trackonly if it matters for your
business.
But if it matters for yourbusiness, then it matters for
your business.
You know if you are sellingthrough Instagram and that's
where you get, that's where thelead gen comes in, right, if a
lot of the people are coming toyou from social media, then,
yeah, it makes sense to tracksome of those social media
(21:14):
metrics.
But if your leads aren't comingfrom social, then don't bother
yourself with them.
Dabble, have fun, enjoy, butyou don't have to focus on them.
And so it's this path of goingthrough each of these four and
getting curious about where arethings coming from, where am I
doing this activity and how canI figure out what's working?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
within that activity.
Yeah, and I just want tointerject really quickly while
we're on this subject for thephotographers who are listening.
I talk about we need to be kindof focusing on for what I do as
, like, a boutique photographerand that's also what I teach.
Right, there's like three.
I call it like the trifecta.
It's SEO, which you touched on alittle bit of like, okay,
looking at Google analytics andlooking at all of those numbers
(21:57):
there or at least just some,right?
Maybe not all of them.
Social media is definitely apart of that for us, for most of
us.
I'm always talking about how itshouldn't be all of it, that's
for sure, but it definitelyshould be supportive, especially
depending on actually whoyou're speaking to as far as,
like, your ideal client.
Of course, then there's thisother aspect of it, which is
(22:18):
word of mouth.
So I want to kind of touch onthat for a second, because a lot
of people have a brick andmortar or they have, like, a
physical photography business orthey do a lot of like in their
local area.
You know marketing and you knowthat's what they rely on for a
lot of this lead generation.
So what are some of thosenumbers that that we might not
even be thinking about?
Speaker 1 (22:39):
So I come from a data brain.
I'm going to share this withyou, but do not be overwhelmed,
especially those of you who arelike what the heck is she
talking about?
I'm going to say some words.
There's going to be someabbreviations here, but we'll
get to it.
My favorite thing to do withpeople who have word of mouth as
(22:59):
a primary marketing mechanismis QR codes that have UTM links.
Okay, what did I just say?
Well, first of all, we know inthe marketing world and in our
modern society that QR codesdrive a lot of traffic.
They're way better thanbusiness cards right now.
(23:19):
They're much more effectivethan someone having to type a
link.
Qr codes are where it's at interms of visual marketing, but
where people tend to fall shortis they use the exact same QR
code everywhere, that they putthat QR code and you're losing
so much data that way.
It's very straightforward tocreate a QR code, so it's not a
(23:42):
whole heck of a lot moredifficult to add what we call
UTM, and I have no idea what UTMstands for.
I call it a universal trackingmeasure, but it's actually
something much more odd that Ican never remember.
But I'm going to call ituniversal tracking number, and
so when you build a UTM you canput things like method and
campaign name and some keywords,and if you just Google, like
(24:07):
literally Google UTM builderGoogle has their own UTM builder
you put in all the things thatare required and every single
time it takes them to the exactwebpage.
Everyone's going to get to theexact same webpage, but these
little UTM fields that comebehind the website tell you, as
the person looking at youranalytics, where it came from.
(24:30):
So let's say that as aphotographer I have.
My best friend's sister is aphotographer.
She does all the schoolphotography, right, but she also
does dance recitals andeverything like that.
Well, if she has one QR code atthe dance company and she has a
different QR code atparent-teacher conference night
at her table, she can tell howmany people use those two
(24:54):
different QR codes based on theUTM link.
So she can start to get an ideafor, okay, the people at the
dance company.
I'm constantly getting a steadyflow of people from that link
At parent-teacher conference.
They just grab the flyer andthey type in my link later.
So it lets you know where yourmarketing is being effective,
(25:16):
and even more so if you get intomore advanced analytics and I
encourage you that, if this isnot your wheelhouse, let someone
else do this for you.
If you have a VA, yeah, theylikely already know it.
I don't like to encouragepeople spending money where they
don't need to, but in truth,this is a place that will have a
high ROI for you If you haveyour analytics set up well and
(25:38):
you have someone putting inwhat's called key events.
You can then track whatpercentage of people coming from
each of these different sourcessign up for your email list,
end up purchasing from you, booka session, all of those
different things.
And that's where we start toget into one of those sales
(25:58):
metrics, which is conversion.
And when we know our conversionand we know what marketing
methods work best for ourconversion, it makes our
decision making so much easier,because isn't it easier to
choose between two or threethings you know work very well
than 10 ideas you have in yourbrain that you have no doubt?
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Yes, this is so good, so good.
I guarantee you, most of thepeople listening to this have
not even considered doing UTM.
Because you know, we see that,like if you've ever run an ad,
right, like you see that, likeyou know, there's like that
little thing that says do youwant to put UTM in?
But most people are like Idon't know.
I don't know what that means,and you know I've had micro
(26:43):
conversations here and therewith photographers about trying
to sort of decipher thisinformation about, like, where
are these leads actually comingfrom, even down to where, like,
a lot of us have a, let's say,referral systems, right, because
we have like really strong,ideally, word of mouth and sort
(27:03):
of like a foothold in our localmarket.
Well, wouldn't it be great tofigure out, like who those
people are actually, if they'rereally referring you, right,
like?
So the only way to kind of likedo that without using this sort
of system would be to go intoyour CRM, create, like a
specific contact form, adifferent one, link that out,
(27:25):
make a QR code for that and then, okay, that would come into
your CRM and you could maybe seebut that's also not telling you
there may be a lot of peoplewho are clicking the link and
not they don't want to send youa message, they don't want to
like sign up for anything rightnow, and so you can't just
really track otherwise, like theclicks, like you're saying, and
so this allows you to see howmuch actual traffic you're
(27:50):
getting and from where.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
This works really well for people who publish
books, like dropshipping booksor people who sell on Etsy,
because you don't have access totheir analytics, because you
don't own their website.
But what you do have access tois like, if you've got a link
tree, you do have access to theGoogle Analytics of the link
(28:15):
tree.
I always suggest that you makeyour own link tree on your own
website, you know.
But if you know, if you put aUTM in all the different places
that you link to your link treewith proper UTM things behind it
, and then you set up those keyevents on that link tree page,
you then know, hey, all of myInstagram clicks end up going to
(28:39):
this particular book.
Did I post a reel about thatbook the other day?
I wonder what's going on there?
Oh, look, that reel did.
And then you get to follow thepath, right, but without having
the UTM and those key eventsshow up.
You know someone's just goingto your Etsy page and then
you've got no idea how theyended up there and you lose all
(29:01):
of that information.
That again, it's a little morework on the front end to set up,
but there's relief in knowing,oh, I don't have to worry about
this marketing aspect, like I'mstressing myself out,
advertising this on Instagramand it works so well.
On threads, why don't I just doit all through thread?
(29:24):
And you want to still staydiverse?
Obviously, right, we don't wantto put all our eggs in one
basket, especially with theprice of eggs, so we want to
keep experimenting becausethings shift.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
But, my goodness, the relief when you say you know
what, right now I don't need toworry about that, yes, exactly,
and like that is such a hugefactor when we're seeing, you
know, so much creative burnout,like that's the the, the relief
is there and yeah, it is.
It is some work on the frontend, it's.
It's probably not something youlove to do, but getting it done
(29:59):
then you're done.
You know what I mean, like notsomething that you constantly
have to, you know, be generating, but just to sort of backtrack
a little bit, cause I know I'llprobably get some questions
about this.
Google has their own systemwhere you can go and you can
create UTM links.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yes.
So if you, if you just Googlecause, you know let's get very
meta here without actually themeta of the business If you
Google, you just Google UTMbuilder there's hundreds of them
.
Just pick one of the top two.
Utm is a standardized practiceacross the internet.
It's a way for websites tounderstand these little key
(30:42):
phrases.
So even if you get, you know, aUTM builder from your CRM, that
will work exactly the same andjust start using UTMs in your
practice, even if you don't havethe analytics set up yet,
because some of these things donaturally come over even with
very little setup, as long asyou have your Google Analytics
(31:03):
tag on your website.
So, like that's the minimum,like we're talking minimum
viable product, use the UTMbuilder and make sure your
Google tag is on all the pagesto your website.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Ok, so now that we have our numbers, now that we
have some numbers and you knowwe're kind of feeling a little
bit better about the data thatwe're getting and the metrics.
Okay, Now, right, Like, so whatdo we do with those numbers and
like take, you know, alignedaction with them?
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Yeah, so I always suggest that you keep your goals
small and you keep them few.
So what are you curious aboutin your business?
We're keeping our thread ofcuriosity what are you curious
about in your business and whatwould you really love to improve
or iterate on?
(31:52):
Because, luckily, as creatives,you tend to be very into the
iterative process, the let'skeep building.
So let's hone in on that energy.
Okay, I'm going to give anexample and we can go into more
detail with that and example ifnecessary.
But so, okay, I'm reallycurious about who.
You mentioned boutiquephotography who really tends to
(32:14):
book those sessions?
Okay, particularly my higherticket session.
Ok, and I've got my numbers setup and I'm starting to notice
that social seems to really bedriving that conversion, and
I've got this set up, that Iknow it's conversion.
Ok, then you take it a stepfurther and we're just following
(32:37):
the curiosity of the data.
Ok, I want to improve myconversions from social.
Okay, so you know that yourconversion rate from someone who
clicks your link to actuallybooking is 10%.
What tweaks, what small tweaks,could we do to increase that to
(32:59):
15%?
Look at your highest convertingreels, because if you've got
UTM links set up, guess whatyour highest converting reels?
What was the messaging in thatreel?
What angle did you use in thatreel?
Let's replicate that again andsee if we get a similar
conversion rate.
And so we're playing withiterating.
(33:20):
I come from a continuousquality improvement background.
That's where a lot of mytraining rest in my corporate
career, and so it's looking atwhat small changes can we make
consistently that end up havingbig impact, because if you try
to revamp everything at once,it's just too many variables,
(33:40):
too many cooks in the kitchen.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Totally Okay.
Yeah, definitely.
Breaking it down is a highlydesirable piece of information.
Yeah, no, that's, that'sawesome.
I love that.
And I would love to know too,real quick.
I've been doing this for awhile and I and you and you see
the underside of a lot ofbusinesses, underside of a lot
(34:04):
of businesses, and so you know,just from that perspective, what
are some like maybe out of thebox or like surprise moments
that you've had.
That I mean obviously withoutlike sharing.
You know, yeah, stupid detailsof the client, but you know like
things that you've seen thatyou were like, oh, that's
unexpected and that'sinteresting, like I love those
stories.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
My favorites are the oh, here's a subpopulation that
we could really tap into.
Those are truly my favorites.
So a lot of times, particularlywhen a business already has UTM
set up or some basic analyticswhen I do a VIP day, because
that's my primary service, Icome in and I really get to
spend the day being curious andso I try to look at things that
(34:41):
the business owner probablyisn't looking at yet and connect
those different dots.
And so my favorite is we had, Ihad a client who there was an
entire subgroup of herpopulation that, okay, the
population was a hundred butonly two would convert to her
program, so it was a 2%conversion rate.
(35:02):
Obviously these numbers arefake 2% conversion rate of that
total population into herprogram.
But her program was made up of80% of people in that population
, meaning that while that totalpopulation and they had
(35:22):
purchased another product justto be very clear.
So like we're not getting superconfused on what I'm talking
about but like people whopurchased this product, they
perfectly went into her otherprogram but they didn't know
about it and so they weren'tconverting like they were the
perfect fit because they weresome of the only people
(35:44):
purchasing that primary program.
But let's increase thatconversion rate.
Let's get 10 percent of thatpopulation, a coupon code for
that small population that endedup being like less than her
affiliate fee anyway andincreased that conversion rate.
(36:06):
It cost her less money, she gothigher conversions and she just
needed to be curious about that.
That one piece of information,that one population.
So really for businesses,particularly those that have a
brick and mortar present,getting curious about where your
people are really coming from,especially the ones that end up
(36:31):
following through with booking,that's probably the biggest
place you'll find surprises.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Sweet.
Yeah, that's really really cool.
I love it.
And then I wanted to just Ithink this is so interesting
when we were chatting about youcoming on the podcast, right, so
your expertise obviously isuncovering these hidden
opportunities, launch membershipdata, helping creative
entrepreneurs maximize thatsuccess like we've been talking
(36:58):
about.
But you also shared something Ithought was really interesting
and I wanted to ask you toexpand on that, because my
podcast is called Tried and Truewith the Dash of Woo and you
mentioned I really love the Dashof Woo because to you you said
the woo is just other data thatwe can incorporate into numbers
to get even expansiveinformation, and I was like,
(37:20):
okay, you're speaking to my soul, tell me more.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yes, so the more is.
I subscribe to the belief thatmagic is just science we don't
understand yet, and Iincorporate that Now.
I am one of those nerdy kidsthat would desperately wants to
be woo Like.
I want to be the witch in thewoods in my cottage, but I'm
just not good at it.
So I surround myself by wooersand not the ones that will
(37:46):
stroke my ego, but the ones thatare into woo.
But I truly believe that yourhuman design, the astrological
orientations, all of that isjust different data that we can
use to help us inform ourdecision.
So if the data is showing yousomething really off and you're
(38:08):
into astrological signals,that's another piece of data to
help you interpret the morequote, unquote rational data
that you're seeing in front ofyou.
Your intuition is just otherdata to help inform.
The data is showing me thatthis decision is the right one,
(38:29):
but my gut's telling mesomething's off.
Well then, maybe you're lookingat the data wrong.
So all of these different bitsof woo are just other data
through which, really the kindof the filter glasses, right
Through which you can see thedata that's on the piece of
paper.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
I love it.
I've never heard it framed thatway and I absolutely am so on
board, because I'm alwaystalking about how it's like
these are all just tools in ourtool belt of self-awareness, and
the more self-aware we are, thebetter business owners we're
going to be, the better humanswe're going to be, just in
general.
The better business ownerswe're going to be, the better
humans we're going to be, justin general.
Like you know, yes, a lot of ustend to be super like these
(39:09):
neurodiversity peeps that I wastalking about.
All of us.
We tend to be pretty self-aware,but then we sort of also can
fall into that trap of like Idon't know what to do with all
of the self-awareness.
So that's obviously, you know,a different sort of step, but
what I'm talking about here isusing that as data, essentially.
So I love that you spoke tothat, because I'm definitely
(39:32):
nerdy as well, and I mean, likeeven down to AI and you know,
using all the things that wehave available to us there and
getting curious about how we canincorporate all of that to make
our data make more sense aswell.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Exactly, it's all about curiosity.
If there's one word to takeaway from our conversation, it
is curiosity.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Super cool.
I love this.
Okay, Thank you so much forbeing here.
This was awesome.
I know you've got someresources for people as well, so
feel free to share like whereyou like to connect with people.
I'll put all of it in the shownotes and then you know anything
that you have as well that youwant to share.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
I'll save the links here, but I will be giving you
some UTM links because you know,got to be, got to be on track,
practice what I preach, Right.
So my the best way to connectwith me and really have a
conversation with me my DMs arealways open.
On Instagram it's Kelsey ESilver.
Don't forget the E at someoneelse if it's not.
So it's Kelsey E Silver.
(40:32):
On Instagram it's me holdingthe entire Lord of the Rings
trilogy.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
You'll notice we're going to have to have a whole
conversation about that offline.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Perfect, my daughter's named after someone
in the books, so that's the bestway to connect with me, to have
a convo.
But I do have a freebie thatI'd love for you to get,
especially if you're really juststill unsure about what to
track.
It's called Million DollarMetrics.
It's the 15,.
I asked 15, six and sevenfigure business owners If you
(41:03):
were stuck on a desert islandand could only measure one thing
in your business, what wouldyou measure?
And they gave me their answerand reasoning.
So it's if you are completelystuck and have no idea what
you'd measure, here's 15 ideasof the only thing to start
measuring If you really had tostart.
And that is at kelseysilvercomslash metrics.
You don't need to eat all that.
That is at kelseysilvercomslash metrics.
(41:23):
You don't need to eat all thatone.
So kelseysilvercom slashmetrics.
But I'll get you all the linksas well.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Perfect.
Yeah, I'll put those in theshow notes for you guys so you
just like look there and even onYouTube, like you'll see them
in the description there.
So super easy.
Thank you so much.
This was like really fun andvery insightful, so I appreciate
it.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Thank you so much.
This was like really fun andvery insightful, so I appreciate
you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
This was an absolute pleasure.
I told you you were going tolearn some things and I told you
you were going to feel betterabout numbers, right?
That was such a juicy episode.
We went to a lot of differentplaces.
I hope that it made sense foryou.
Like, as we were chatting, Iwas like, oh my gosh, this is
going to.
I could I can just kind of seethe takeaways, you know,
happening in real time, not justfor you, but for me, right?
(42:08):
So I'm a creative, I totallyget it, and data is something
that I love.
I love the idea of trackingdata and I love the idea of
finding money.
That is so freaking cool, butyou just get lost in it
sometimes, right, and so you canget to this place where it's
like, yeah, that sounds great,but I don't know where to even
start with that.
So I hope you now have a placeto start.
(42:29):
I actually know you have aplace to start.
You just need to make sure youtake the steps to do it.
So go ahead and hit the linksfor her below, follow her, get
that free resource, and just.
At least.
I hope this helped you reframeyour conversation about data and
metrics in your business and,of course, I want to hear all
your takeaways.
So go to rate this podcastcom.
(42:50):
Slash Renee Bowen to leave areview.
Rate us.
You can do it for any platformfrom there, so it makes it
really easy, and I'd love tohear your takeaways on Instagram
.
Hit me up over there at ReneeBowen.
Just DM me.
If you've got some feedback orinsights that you loved and if
you want to share about thisepisode, you can do that and tag
(43:10):
me and you might win something.
All right, I hope you guysloved that, enjoyed it, and I
hope you have a great rest ofyour week as well.
All right, go do some goodstuff and do something good for
yourself.
I'll see you next time.
Love you, bye.
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