December 10, 2025 • 49 mins
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Show Notes:
This week I’m joined by Dr. Sharon Niv, cognitive psychologist and co-founder of Joyous, for a conversation that completely reframes what we think we know about ketamine treatment. Instead of the intense, dissociative experiences most people imagine, Sharon walks us through a gentler psycholytic approach that keeps you fully aware, engaged, and able to participate in your healing.
We talk about how low-dose ketamine quiets the narrative mind, creates a sense of emotional spaciousness, and opens the door for real neuroplastic change. Sharon breaks down the science behind it, the spiritual implications of working in this state, and why this method is becoming a lifeline for people navigating depression, anxiety, trauma, and burnout.
If you’ve ever been curious about the bridge between consciousness work, neuroscience, and practical mental health support, this episode will pull you in immediately.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to Tried and True with the Dash of Woo, where
we blend rock solid tips with alittle bit of magic.
I'm Renee Bowen, your host, lifeand business coach, and
professional photographer.
At your service, we are allabout getting creative, diving
into your business, and playingwith manifestation over here.
So are you ready to get inspiredand have some fun?
Let's dive in.
(00:22):
Hey friends, welcome back toTried and True with a Dash of
Woo.
I'm your host, Renee Bowen.
And two really quick thingsbefore we get into today's
episode and my awesome guest.
So, first thing is that thisepisode is a little different
than I normally do.
I have someone on who is goingto be talking to us.
(00:43):
She is a cognitive psychologist,but we're going to be talking
about a very specific thing,which is psycholytic ketamine
therapy.
So I just want to offer reallyquickly before we get into even
the introduction for her, thatthat could be a little
triggering for some of you,right?
So I just kind of wanted to leadin with a slight trigger
(01:04):
warning, if you will, that weare going to be talking about uh
ketamine.
We're going to be talking aboutusing medicine in treatment for
mental health.
So the episode could be slightlytriggering for some people.
And I just really wanted to namethat really quickly before we
dump jump in.
I think it's a fascinatingtopic.
(01:27):
And I'm, you know, it's one ofthe reasons why I love doing
this podcast.
I didn't realize how much I wasgoing to love doing this
podcast, but this is one of thereasons why I love doing it, is
because it I learn.
I learn so much.
And I'm kind of one of thosepeople, like I just constantly
want to learn.
And this is such a greatopportunity for me to do that.
(01:48):
I can have different people onand guests that come on and talk
to us about all of thesedifferent modalities and
therapies and treatments.
And some of them may be greatfor you, and some of them are
not.
So use your discernment asalways.
But yeah, for me, I think it'sjust very interesting, right?
I just like to kind of like toknow what's going on.
(02:09):
And so that is my little triggerwarning for you.
And then we will get to her, mymy guest, we'll get to her
introduction in just a second.
The other thing I wanted toremind you guys of is that
enrollment for my Januarythrough June Elevate cohort is
officially open.
So Elevate is my small groupcoaching experience for
(02:30):
photographers who are notbeginners, but know that they're
ready for more actual momentumin their business and also for
more support.
The kind of support that helpsyou stop hiding, start being
seen, and finally run yourbusiness like the version of you
that you keep imagining in yourhead.
Okay.
And because you've listened tothis show, I already know that
(02:51):
you value depth and clarity andmindset strategy and building a
business in a way that doesn'tfry your nervous system.
And Elevate is exactly that.
It's a blend of businessstrategy, content clarity,
belief rewiring, nervous systemsupport, and real accountability
without the shame or the hustleculture that so many of us are
(03:12):
already exhausted by.
It is by application onlybecause I curate the space very
intentionally so that everyoneis supported at the level that
they need.
And if something in you islighting up right now, just
hearing that, then I invite youto apply.
The link is in the show notes.
Do it soon because I am closingdown applications shortly.
(03:34):
All right.
So let's jump into today'sepisode, shall we?
So I am always trying to findspaces where science and
spirituality intersect, right?
It's kind of the whole point ofthe show.
And where data and intuitionstop being, you know, enemies
and they start like dancingtogether.
That stuff lights me up.
(03:55):
So today's guest is somebodywho's doing that in a very
interesting way.
Her name is Dr.
Sharon Niv, and she is acognitive psychologist and she's
the co-founder of Joyus, whichis a public benefit corporation
leading the way in psycholyticketamine therapy, which is
essentially a gentler, moregrounded approach to mental
(04:15):
health treatment that's changinghow we think about healing.
When she first told me thatJoyce had treated over 83,000
patients with response rateshigher than most antidepressants
and none of the disassociationpeople expect from psychedelics,
I knew I had to get her on theshow to talk about this.
(04:36):
And again, I know this can be apolarizing and triggering
subject.
So I just invite you to have anopen mind and listen because I
feel like there's a lot ofeducation here for sure.
But what I love most aboutSharon's work is how it honors
both the clinical and themystical.
And it's it's not about checkingout.
That's not what this is.
(04:57):
Okay.
It's literally about waking up.
So I'm super excited to sharethis conversation with you guys.
Let's jump right in.
Hey, Sherry, thanks for beinghere.
I'm really excited about thistopic because I feel like this
is something that has been onpeople's minds.
Like I know, like in my owncircle, like we've we've sort of
been talking about it a littlebit, uh, but there's not a lot
(05:17):
of understanding about it.
So I'm very excited that we'regonna dig deeper into it because
you are the pro in this field.
You started your career incognitive psychology, which is
very evidence-based, verystructured.
What first pulled you towardthis type of work and ultimately
the psycholytic therapy?
SPEAKER_01 (05:36):
So before Joyous, um, I had decided I would
dedicate my life to healingsuffering and raising human
consciousness through whatevermeans are possible.
And I was fairly agnostic on themeans.
Um and since then I've I'vejoked that if I could make the
world meditate two hours a day,I would certainly do that, but
that's not realistic.
(05:57):
And uh this opportunitypresented itself uh through the
team that ended up being theco-founding team.
And I just thought, wow, that'sthat's a huge opportunity
because people do have aninterest in working with
alternate stints ofconsciousness.
And especially when they do itintentionally, it can be quite
profound.
So when we started Joyous Out,and uh, you know, we we launched
(06:20):
officially in early 2022, butwe, of course, the ideation
process is always a bit longerthan that.
Really started talking about itthe summer of 2021.
And our original thinking was todo something in the high-dose
space, which of course alreadyexists.
There are uh certainly clinicsand there are individual
doctors, but there are alsoseveral other telehealth
(06:41):
companies that are providing theopportunity for higher dose
ketamine experiences.
And we're very pro the range ofexperiences that are possible,
but we wanted to do somethingthat's different and that is
better matched to at least some,if not a substantial portion of
the population.
And so these lower doses thatwere um that are called
(07:02):
psycholytic, not psychedelic, ornot dissociative, but partially
dissociative, are a prettydifferent animal when it comes
to working with states ofconsciousness and working with
psychological content.
Um we think of it as askill-building approach rather
than like as a journey toinsight, which is often what you
get with higher dose uhpsychoactive medications.
(07:23):
You're kind of your mind is theone setting the pace, and you
have to sort of submit intothat.
And there's a beauty to that,and there's a power to that.
This is different.
There's still a strong sense inwhich the individual on the
psycholytic dose is able to bequite intentional with their
intentional system.
They can decide what to focuson, they can decide what they
want to touch, investigate, workwith, grow comfortable with.
(07:46):
And the psycholytic state is astrong supporter of that.
So we really do think of it as aquote of go low, go slow.
One of our collaborators gavethat to me.
And it's it's really true.
It is a piecemeal, uh, gentle,gradual approach to getting into
a better relationship withyourself and with states of
consciousness.
SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
That's okay, it's really fascinating to me because
yes, I had heard about thehigher dose, like you said.
Um, I've even had a couple ofpeople, just in my personal life
that I've known who have donethat type of work specifically
for depression, you know,chronic depression.
And they rave about it.
It literally, like they've said,you know, it saved their lives.
(08:27):
Um, and I think that just likeanything else, right?
Like until you really experiencesomething like that, it's really
hard to like for people whodon't deal with these types of
mental issues that, you know,like severe depression, right?
Like, unless you've really kindof dealt with it, it's really
hard to understand what wouldbring someone to this place.
(08:50):
But I feel like this thisconversation is really important
to open people's awareness tothat and dig into these
different options because yeah,those higher doses might feel a
little scary for people.
And what you guys are doing isvery different.
So I want to just touch on thatvery quickly.
You guys do this low dose.
(09:11):
I mean, if is it fair to saysomething that it'd be kind of
like microdosing, or you knowwhat I mean?
Like, are you working with atherapist as well?
So, kind of like give us alittle bit of a framework of
like what that looks like fromthe consumer side of joyous,
real quick before we dive in.
SPEAKER_01 (09:24):
Awesome questions.
Okay, so I think there were atleast two separate ones on
there.
Is that microdosing is a greatconversation?
Um, some people say thatmicrodosing, by definition, is
self-perceptual, meaning likeyou don't notice the changes.
You you may uh you know, takesome microdose psilocybin and
realize, oh, I've been a littlebit more creative today, but it
doesn't necessarily feel allthat different from a
(09:45):
psychoactive perspective.
And those are not the doses thatwe're working with here.
So they are psycholytic.
I don't really you know have astrong opinion about microdose
or not microdose.
Certainly, I think we come up onmicrodosing as a uh search term,
for example.
Yeah.
And I think it's appropriatebecause it's it's it is small
enough that it's manageable in aday-to-day way.
Whereas, you know, with higherdoses, you might want to block
(10:06):
off three to four hours to go tothe clinic and be with your
provider.
Um, some of it is ketamineassisted psychotherapy where
there isn't a therapist orpsychologist there.
Some of it is just ID ketaminewhere you still want to block
off that time because you'requite altered and then you want
someone to drive you home.
So this is this is not that, butit's not subperceptual.
(10:28):
People do experience umphenomenology around it, right?
So people will experience asense of spaciousness.
If you've done a lot ofmeditation and you've grown
familiar with the state of likeopen, open awareness, spacious
awareness, there are somesimilarities between the state
of psycholytic ketamine andspacious awareness.
There is a sense in which you'rebigger than your body.
(10:49):
It's it's a mild associative,right?
So that partial association kindof helps you be both inside and
outside your body.
There's a permeability there.
And it's actually through thatpermeability that's the
sensations of the nervous systemthat got stuck there during
moments of emotional difficultyor trauma.
That's how they can release whenthere is that openness and
(11:11):
spaciousness, which we assume isa relaxation of the
micromusculature that kind ofholds in resistance, not wanting
to let go of and fullyexperience the overwhelming
sensations that are associatedwith negative emotionality and
trauma, right?
Like we do brace against thesedeep difficult emotions for good
(11:32):
reason.
Like they're extremelychallenging and they can be
quite overwhelming to thesystem.
And then ketamine provides thisspaciousness, at least in the
psycholytic state.
I mean, there can be a fullrelease with a high dose stuff,
and that we're again not opposedto high dose at all.
There's a place for it and itcan be transformative, like you
said.
But um, to really slowly developa relationship with some of
(11:54):
these patterns and nervoussystem um activations, it's
useful to be able to go thereagain and again and practice
with.
So that was the first questionyou asked.
I think was about microdosing.
And then the second is what isthe involvement of a clinician?
So um we opted to be the mostaffordable ketamine treatment
that we could find, which is$129a month for a month worth of
(12:17):
medication, plus just being theprogram, which I can describe
some more.
And that means that, you know,for$129 a month, there's no
therapist.
They deserve more than that.
Yeah.
So uh what that means for theroughly 50 to 60 percent we're
estimating patients who don'thave a therapist is that we
create programming for them.
(12:37):
There is currently a course onnervous system regulation.
There are courses on techniquesthey can use in the moment to
when you're triggered.
And we're making courses onself-compassion, we're making
courses on understanding partswork framework.
Or uh we have a lot in thepipeline that I think will be
continuing to serve the needs ofthe patients who don't have
(12:57):
their own therapists.
We also have an online platformwhere there's a forum that's
very supportive.
The patients who participate inthat really derive a lot of
community value from it.
Um, I lead some live sessionsweekly for meditating together
in community, and I think it'sgoing to grow soon.
Thinking of making offeringslike let's do a community
(13:18):
greeting.
Um I think that would be reallybeautiful.
There are things we just don'tmake space for in our society
that it's useful to at leastmake as an offering.
So that's about 50% of thepopulation that comes to
assistations probably don't havea therapist because they can't
afford it.
About 9% of our uh patient baseactually has financial aid
(13:39):
because we really want to makethis available.
Now, the 40 to 48% who do havetherapists, um, I say this uh a
lot, but one thing we heard froma patient that really rings in
my mind was on my own, I usethis medicine to build positive
habits with my therapist.
I dig into the dark stuff.
(13:59):
And we um are coming out with atherapist collaboration program
called Joyous for Therapists.
And it is a free program fortherapists to belong to.
We did put together acertificate program that's like
fully APA accredited, continuingeducation units, full shebang,
real deals coming out atNovember.
(14:20):
It is coming out this month, andit'll allow therapists to learn
how to use these lower doses.
There are several existingprograms for higher dose work
with Ketamate or withpsychedelics in general.
There are various excellenttraining programs for that, but
this psycholytic model is alittle bit of a different
animal.
And in a sense, you know, firstwe thought, is this even
(14:40):
necessary?
All they're doing is the samework they're already doing.
It's just that the patients,their clients, are coming in
better able to engage in thework.
They're less resistant, they'remore open.
The academy is a neuroplasticagent, so they there's a sense
in which doing the work impactsthem in an even longer term way.
(15:01):
Just do your work.
But that wasn't enough.
You know, it is understandably,therapists are cautious.
They have this weighty, preciousthing of uh a human life in
their hands.
They also have licensees toprotect, understandably.
They want to know what they'redoing.
So we did put together a wholeprogram um led by experienced
clinicians who know how to usethese doses that examines all of
(15:26):
the scientific sides of things,protocols, um, best practices
around safety, ethics, the legalstuff, all of it.
It's it's a full program that'scoming out.
And so the hope is to havepatients be able to go to their
own therapists and say, I wantto bring this medicine into our
work together.
Would you want to participate inthis program so that we can make
(15:46):
the most out?
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
That's really cool.
Okay, so yeah, that's comingout.
That's for therapists, and thatis coming out this month in
November as the time of thisrecording.
Not sure when this the episodewill air, but just want to make
sure if you are a therapist andyou're looking into that kind of
work, that's really fascinating.
And I think it's really it'sgreat that you guys are making
it so accessible, I think, andalso doing that deeper work of
(16:08):
training.
Because yeah, I mean, I feellike there is a lot of
misunderstanding, misconception.
So let's kind of like get intothat real quick.
Um, first of all, what isketamine?
Like a lot of people are like,isn't that what Matthew Perry
died of?
And isn't that what you go, youknow, like when you're in
surgery?
Don't they give you that?
Like, you know what I mean?
Like there's a lot of thingsthat you hear online.
(16:31):
Um, what is ketamine?
And then also, like, what wouldsomeone maybe possibly even
experience a little bit withthese low doses?
SPEAKER_01 (16:41):
So, yes, ketamine is a dissociative anesthetic.
It is, it doesn't repress the uhrespiratory system at all.
So it's considered one of thesafest.
It's considered a battlefieldanesthetic.
It's routinely used in surgerieswith children because it's so
safe.
It is, it has a remarkably highsafety profile.
But what another thing that'sinteresting about ketamine is
(17:02):
that there are different tiersof dosing that all lead to
really different experiences.
High enough, and you areanesthetic.
Yeah.
You are out.
And one of the interestingthings and heartbreaking things
about the Matthew Carey case,uh, first of all, he drowned.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, exactly.
It wasn't that ketamine killedhim, it's that ketamine
anesthetized him enough that hedrowned in a hot tub, which is
(17:24):
an it's a known phenomenon thatused to be a problem in the 70s
and 80s.
People took it and got intotheir um uh uh sensory
deprivation pods, and peopledied.
And don't do that.
Yeah.
So um the other thing is you canlook this up in the New York
Times, Matthew Perry is found tohave anesthetic levels of
ketamine in his system when hedied, which is insane.
(17:44):
Like a not it not a judgment,it's it's incredible how much he
had in his system.
And a person with who was morenaive to the medicine would just
have been out completely.
Um so high enough doseanesthetic, go a little bit
lower, and you get into what iskind of known the K-hole
territory.
Okay.
So there's still it's an egodeath, which you know, I I
(18:07):
personally believe ego deathalways has a benefit to us.
It's sort of it's like ainformation to the system that
our current way of constructingreality is not the only
available one.
And I have a friend who said,and I think he's I think he's
right, that the high, high dosepsychedelic state of ketamine,
which maybe is a little lowerthan K-hole, is actually what he
(18:30):
imagined a psychedelicexperience would be like when he
was a teenager.
And really, when he took LSD orpsilocybin, it ended up being
quite different.
But ketamine in its likepsychedelic state, and there is
a conversation in the academicfield about whether it's
psychedelic or not psychedelicbecause it doesn't work on
serotonin, which is what LSD andpsilocybin and ayahuasca and and
(18:50):
I'm again all classicpsychedelics, all are
serotinergic.
They work on a particularreceptor called 5-HT2A.
Ketamine doesn't touch serotoninas far as we know.
It's it's so complex that itmight, but its primary mechanism
of action is on the glutamatesystem, which is the primary
excitatory uh neurotransmitterin the brain.
(19:11):
So it's like one of the most uhprevalent neurotransmitter
systems in the brain.
Every time a neuron activates,there's some uh some involvement
of glutamate in there.
And so the fact that ketamineworks on glutamate means that
the effects can be really quitewidespread.
And that's why, for example, uh,I was reading about it from the
(19:31):
perspective of like psychonauts,people who go on psychedelic
journey for more lesstherapeutic and more
consciousness uh basedactivities.
And it just seems like itamplifies and changes the
effects of like most otherpsychoactive medications,
psilocybin or mDNA.
They they have an interactionthat's very interesting.
(19:53):
It's probably because of thiswidespread nature of glutamate.
Um, so you asked about what.
Is ketamine.
So we we got from anestheticlevel, K-hole, psychedelic, and
then you get to psycholytic.
And in the psycholytic doses,psychiatrist psychologists have
the term fully oriented.
That means oriented to self, whoare you, to situation, what are
(20:16):
you doing, and to location,where are you?
You're fully oriented with theselower doses.
Okay.
You know exactly who you are,what you're doing, uh, who
you're talking to.
It makes it really perfect fortherapy enhancement.
It's just that in addition toall of that, there are effects,
as we mentioned, that are quitespacious.
(20:36):
So there is a sense in which youfeel like you're both inside and
outside your body.
You can observe the sensationsof your system almost as though
you're suddenly a big room andthey're happening within.
Our general experience withdifficult emotions is that we
feel really fused with them.
You know, we feel reallyidentified with them.
They can be quite overwhelming.
It feels like they take over theentire system.
(20:59):
Ketamine makes you the size ofthe room, the sensations stay
there, and you're able toobserve them, to understand
them, to relate to them in waysthat produce much more safety
and much less vulnerable.
One of the therapists in ourcommunity described it as a
blanket of safety that allowsher patients, her clients to go
into places they haven't beenable to quite before.
(21:21):
And so, yeah, the experience isthere is a somatic experience.
Um, and people differ in howthey uh relate to it.
It's kind of buzzy, and somepeople quite like it.
Some people take some timegetting used to it.
There is a spaciousness whichcan lead to some lightheadedness
that's kind of normal if it'stoo strong, or we have a full
(21:44):
nursing staff that's like thereto help work through any
preventive side effects, anylike mild dizziness, any um
nausea, which isn't terriblycommon, but can happen mostly
because I think it's more of auh like car sickness effect,
more emotion sickness than itis, um uh stomach sickness.
So we have a full nursing staffto help you get through that
(22:06):
into the place where you feelkind of at ease with it.
There's a relaxation componentto it too.
It's been unbelievable how manypeople I've spoken to in our
program who said, I no longerneed that glass or tooth wine a
day.
Yeah.
Just take this and it helps meget back into a state of
relaxation, but that that's somuch less harmful to my body
(22:27):
than alcohol.
SPEAKER_00 (22:29):
Yeah, and so many other pharmaceuticals too that
people take for sleep becausethey maybe have anxiety and
depression and they can't sleepbecause of the burden of that.
You know what I mean?
Like so many people deal withsleep issues because of what
they're dealing with on thedaily.
So they can't get into that deepsleep, that restorative sleep
(22:50):
that we know is so incrediblyimportant.
So I imagine that that also justin and of itself would have a
really positive effect in aswell as the the psycholytic
effects, you know, as we weretalking about before.
But what I find interesting isthis this sort of like
spaciousness, right?
Because yeah, there's a lot ofdifferent ways that people
(23:10):
can't, like you said, like westarted off talking about like I
wish people could meditate fortwo hours a day.
Like, yeah, but that's notreally something that a lot of
people can do.
But also the body really doeshold so much.
I mean, I was a massagetherapist for years, a long time
ago.
I'm a very big believer in thismind-body connection.
And I mean, I just got back froma retreat where one of the other
(23:33):
retreat members that this iswhat she does.
She's like a body alchemist.
Like she's a psychologist and amassage therapist, and she's
created her own system of likehelping people access what
you're holding in your body, howit is affecting you and helping
you move through it.
But that's not really easy for alot of people to do.
(23:54):
You have to sort of get, as youknow, especially if you're
dealing with like major trauma,right?
Like we know that that thiswould be, I'm sure, really super
effective for those people toget to that conscious observer
where it's not like judging,because a lot of people with
major depression have the cycleof self-hatred that runs on that
(24:16):
loop.
And that in and of itself isfeels almost impossible for
people with major depression tostop to get to the point of a
conscious observer to even dothe work.
So that is like, I think amazingthat it is a facilitator for
that.
Um, and so I know that you'vesaid in some of the talks that
(24:40):
you've done that you're seeinglike a 68% response rate for
depression in general, which isreally huge.
Do you think that that's what isthe major effect?
Like, what do you what do youthink about it?
Um, and is that the the bulk ofyour clients, right?
Like, are do people come to youfor anxiety, for instance, too?
Like, or or do they kind of likekind of go hand in hand?
SPEAKER_01 (25:00):
Um, yeah, the major indications that we see patients
for are uh depression, anxiety,and PTSD.
68% is I think a bit of anunderstatement because that's
how we clinically define change,which would ends up being about
two drops in game severity oneither the depression or anxiety
scale that we use to get uh ifyou're gonna look at anyone, I I
(25:21):
think it's uh to be honest, kindof a silly metric.
But when we looked at even onepoint drop, we got to 92%, 94,
92 percent.
So either you're kind of stayingwhere you there's very little
deterioration, it was under 1%,uh, either staying where you are
or or achieving some sort ofbenefit.
And so, yes, the people who comein have depression, anxiety, and
(25:43):
PTSD.
And I think as you said, uh partof what's happening there is a
respite from the spaciousawareness that we talked about
that shares uh qualities withpsycholytic ketamine state.
Um, another shared experiencethere is a quieting of the
narrative mind, for sure.
(26:04):
And as you said, withdepression, you get this
ruminative and self-criticalvoice that can be extremely
active.
With anxiety, it's you know,sometimes a little bit of a
different flavor, morecatastrophizing, more of like an
obsessive evaluation of thedanger zone, but still there's a
(26:24):
very loud voice that then'sundefined dominating.
And what the cycleitic ketaminestate provides is a respite from
that.
And it endures too, right?
So you have about the 40 to 16minutes that are quite
psychoactive, not quite.
I mean, you're you're able tofunction, don't drive, right?
You're able to function, butstill there's a quietness that
happens there.
But it that quietness can endurethree to four hours at least
(26:48):
post each dose.
And over time, as patients beginto develop to stronger
relationships and moreself-compassionate relationships
with themselves and their parts,the baseline shifts.
So they no longer have to betaking this medicine on a
regular basis, at least the vastmajority don't, to still feel um
a reductive change in just howloud the voice in the head is.
(27:13):
The mechanism of action, as wesaid, is that it is highly
neuroplastic.
So what's happening there isformation of new dendritic and
synaptic qualities in the brain.
So dendrites are the pieces ofthe neuron that sort of um
receive uh neurotransmittersfrom the presynaptic neuron, and
then synapses are just theconnections between the neurons.
(27:36):
So both of those increase.
Both the postsynaptic neurons'ability to receive and the
connection between neuronsincrease as a result of
ketamine.
And so what this does suggest isthat if you're taking ketamine
and then like watching horrormovies and beating yourself up
the entire time, you know, youcould cause some damage.
(27:56):
But what seems to happennaturally because of this
spaciousness and the quietnessis that people do enter into a
state that allows for release oflong-held emotions and an
experience with the quiet mind.
And that's what gets reinforced.
SPEAKER_00 (28:15):
Okay, yeah.
That makes so much sense.
I really am fascinated by thisum this sort of bridge melding
of like the scientific rigor,right?
And then honoring this likemystery of consciousness at the
same time.
Like, I I love that thatconversation a little bit.
(28:36):
Um, and also like you mentioned,the brain's ability to change.
Like that is so incrediblyinteresting.
Like, someone might be a littlehesitant maybe about doing this
because they might feel like,okay, this is like a uh forever
sort of thing, or but now, like,let's kind of dig into that a
little bit about thisneuroplasticity and how you
(28:57):
know, you mentioned the theactual physical changes that can
happen in the brain, but thenalso like, what about the soul's
ability to also evolve fromthere?
And like, how do they dancetogether that you've seen?
SPEAKER_01 (29:11):
Love that.
Um, so we talk a lot in theguidance that we give with the
digital therapeutics.
As you remember, like over halfof our patients don't actually
have therapists.
So we do try to provide themwith guidance.
We talk a lot about innerwisdom, true nature, and that
this medicine gives you anability to connect to that much
more directly.
(29:32):
And just spontaneously, it seemslike what we've sort of seen in
the neuroscience literature isthat when there's a reduction in
activity of what's known as thedefault mode network, and that
is a network of brain regionsthat seems to get active when we
are in self-referential states,like when you're stage reading,
(29:53):
when you're evaluating, should Ihave said that, when you're
thinking of yourself, when allof that is the default mode
network, and it's called defaultbecause that's if you're not
like actively working on solvinga task, that's what sort of
happens.
It was funny how it wasdiscovered in um the big fMRI
magnets.
They told people, yeah, just liethere and do nothing.
And it turns out we don't donothing, you know, we like think
(30:15):
about whether or not we shouldhave said that thing and kind of
evaluate ourselves and have thatyou know negative talk,
self-talk happening.
So that's how they, you know,discovered this default thing.
Um, now psychedelics in generalappear to reduce activity in the
default mode network.
They appear to change thebalance from top down, which
means you experience lifethrough your beliefs to bottom
(30:38):
up, which is experiencing lifethrough the senses.
And ketamine also has theproperty of quieting the default
mode network down.
Now, again, it's it's very dosedependent.
If you're having an ego death inyour K-hole, then your default
mode network is by definitionjust offline.
But um, with these psycholyticstates, you still have a sense
(31:00):
of self, you still know who youare, you still can process the
world, but it is quiet.
The voice is quieter, thatnetwork activity is quieter.
And goodness, where are we goingwith this?
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
Um I don't I love though that the bridge between
the two, right?
Like so Oh, I'm sorry.
Evolution, I know.
SPEAKER_01 (31:19):
Yeah, I totally remembered.
It seems to be that when thatnetwork is quieter, people have
more spiritual experiences,right?
Which so accords with Buddhistphilosophy.
When you quiet down the mind andthe ego and you see what's
underneath, what's underneath ismore truly you than that voice
(31:39):
ever was.
And it's compassionate.
IFS certainly sees this too,wise mind from DBT.
Your true nature, what'sunderneath the egoic thinking
mind, is always going to be morepeaceful, truer, more
compassionate, more caring, moreconnected, and better
functioning.
And ketamine gives people,sometimes for the first time,
(32:02):
people who were really notraised in spiritual
circumstances, an experiencethat many people consider quite
spiritual.
Some people really talk aboutconnecting to a higher power,
experiencing life through thesevery new lenses, but if nothing
else, it quiets down thethinking mind enough to connect
to a deeper part of you, to awiser part of you.
(32:24):
So, you know, we can forgetmetaphysics for a moment, right?
I don't, I don't know what'sreal and what's not real, but I
know that these medicines canhelp us to connect to something
within us that feels deeper andtruer.
SPEAKER_00 (32:35):
Yeah, that makes so much sense because I mean,
literally, I always say this,especially with my coaching
students, and just remindingmyself is like the secret to
life is just kind of letting go,right?
Like that's the letting go,letting go, letting go, letting
go is so powerful, but it's so,so hard for so many of us,
especially these high achievingwomen that I work with.
Um, the the pushing, thehustling, the living in our
(32:57):
masculine.
There's so, so, so much of this.
It's rampant.
I'm in a lot of female founderspaces.
And, you know, I see it workingwith creative women, especially
and that active mind.
I just want to kind of touch onthat for a second because I
have, I have gone through aperiod of deep depression once
in my life.
(33:18):
But really, what I have dealtwith my entire life that I
didn't really even know that itwas called that until much later
was severe OCD anxiety.
And it wasn't really talkedabout like when I was a kid, but
I can remember, like even as achild, having just like these,
like the loop, the loop of thecatastrophizing, I call it the
(33:38):
anxiety highway.
I have to go all the way, allthe way to the end of the
highway, and just like see,okay, and then we die.
You know what I mean?
Like comes to like everythingand then and then we die.
Um, because that's like theworst thing.
So I can imagine that.
I mean, I've never done thistype of work myself.
And I'm gonna be honest, likeI've been terrified about the
(33:59):
whole like microdosingpsilocybin thing anyway, just
because like a lot of people saythat it's just so freeing and
opens, but I am a control freak.
I have anxiety, you know, that'snot something that I'm gonna
feel really good about doing,honestly.
But I can imagine that givingyourself the space and to quiet
that loop for people who livewith anxiety.
(34:20):
I I know this we touched ondepression, but like those of us
who deal with that type of OCDanxiety, I can imagine how truly
life-changing that could be tojust even have your first moment
of that quiet.
Like people live their wholelives, not even really knowing
(34:40):
that that's kind of like theyjust feel like the well, this is
how I am.
And then they do something likethis, and I can imagine how
powerful that is for people.
I'm sure you see that a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (34:48):
Yeah, there's there's a direct vote of uh I
didn't know how much anxiety Iwas carrying to like lift it for
the first time.
Just the layer there and itlifts.
There's this we feel like 10pounds lighter.
Like you took them backpack offthe shoulders.
SPEAKER_00 (35:03):
Oh that's that's awesome.
I mean, honestly, like assomeone who has dealt with that
and have I have clients who dealwith that, I can imagine what
relief that is for people.
Like, yes, I've been able to getto that place to other methods
of meditation and hypnosis andunconscious work.
But I mean, it is it thatrepresents over that's like 30
(35:26):
years of work for me.
You know what I mean?
Like that's of like work andlike digging into it and being
willing to go there and gettingto the point where I'm I'm yeah,
honestly, being in massagetherapy school was like my first
taste of it in the early 90sbecause I was getting body work
all the time.
We were practicing on eachother.
I had no idea that it was gonnacrack me open.
SPEAKER_01 (35:46):
You were caring, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:47):
Yeah, I had no idea.
I was like, oh, I'm justlearning how to be a massage
therapist.
And and like within like acouple of months, I was just
like like a mess because I hadbeen holding so much in my body,
and it had no choice but to getout now because I was getting
work on every single day.
(36:08):
And I had to like reallyintentionally process the things
that were coming out.
And it was like a I had to trustthat this was like what I signed
up for.
You know what I mean?
Like I had to really kind of gothere with myself.
It's like, nope, I was guided tothis for a reason.
Yes, this is scary, this isterrifying.
I'd never cried that much in myentire life.
And I had been in therapybefore, and I was like, this is
(36:31):
this is a lot.
So I can imagine people who hadnever really even dug into that.
And I love that this isbridging, like you said before,
um, this gap of people who andmaking it accessible to people
who may not otherwise be able toreally afford it.
So I do want to touch on thatfor a second before we start to,
(36:52):
you know, kind of wrap up.
And I, and we definitely willbe, you know, I want to before
we wrap up, I want to talk abouthow people can find you and and
and work with this and all ofthat, and and therapists as
well, like you said before.
But you co-founded Joyce as thispublic benefit corporation,
which is not really somethingthat you hear about every day,
right?
Like, so I want to talk to you alittle bit about the mission
(37:13):
here.
SPEAKER_01 (37:13):
Totally.
Um, so public benefitcorporation is not a nonprofit,
but it does mean that we uh inour charter, we put mission
above shareholder value.
So right now we're privatelyowned anyway, but should we ever
IPO, that is a signal to themarket and to any potential
shareholders that we will makedecisions that benefit our
(37:35):
patients because that is themission of the company, the
mission of company is to enablecommun individuals and
communities to live joyfullives.
And so there, if there's goingto be some decision about, oh,
we can raise the price a littlebit and opt, nope, that's not
going to happen because part ofour mission is to make it
accessible.
Um, so yes, we are living inaccordance with our mission.
(38:00):
And um yeah, being a publicbenefits corporation is
something we feel really goodabout.
And then you had a secondquestion about how people could
find us, or was there one?
SPEAKER_00 (38:08):
Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about that before
you wrap up.
Um, you know, especially like Ikind of wanted to just mention
because like even therapistburnout is a thing, you know,
and especially now.
I feel like since the pandemic,I mean, there's so many people
who need the mental health helpin general.
(38:29):
And I see a lot of young peoplegoing into psychology and going,
you know, wanting to becometherapists, which I think is
great.
But burnout is a real thing inin the healing world as well.
So talk to me a little bit abouthow you guys are helping the
therapists as well, stayregulated and inspired while
holding this space for people aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (38:51):
So we just started this program about two months
ago.
We've already had like 250 or300 therapists sign up, which is
really exciting.
And I think as the as thetraining program comes out in
November of this month, thenwe'll be able to advertise more
broadly.
Just come learn about this.
How do we support thetherapists?
There is a module in thetraining that's all about the
(39:12):
importance of self-care andremembering that when you take
on the energy of such deepsuffering and like really the
soul struggles of your of yourclients, like this is sacred
work therapy.
Yes, you absorb some of it, andyou need to be able to be
supported by your peers, by yourloved ones.
You need to engage in deliberateself-care, you need to do the
(39:34):
body work to release what yourtissues are holding.
Um, and we do um we do encouragethe therapist who join the
program to try out the uhprotocol themselves.
We provide them three months ofcompletely at cost treatment.
We need like what it costs us tohave them meet with the provider
twice in that first month andship out the medicine.
(39:57):
Like, we're we're not making anymoney off the therapists who
want to try.
This for at least a couple ofmonths because we do want them
to know that's a resource forthem as well.
I am holding um weekly sessionsof meet space for the therapists
to get to know and support oneanother.
We're going to start doing likebreakout groups this week, which
is something that theyrequested.
Um, if the program succeeds tothe extent that we're hoping
(40:20):
we'll post the certificateprogram, we'd love to host
workshops.
We've had some amazingpractitioners offer to workshops
for us on how do you combinethese doses of academy with
EMDR, with IFS, with workingwith LGBTQ populations, with you
know with um OCD, differentmodalities, different
populations, different uhconditions.
(40:41):
How do you work with all ofthat?
How do we support one anotherthrough this?
And yeah, I mean absolutely soimportant for therapists to be
able to take care of their ownsystems when you're holding
others, you know, the foundationneeds to draw.
SPEAKER_00 (40:55):
Yeah, that's so important.
This is so exciting.
Thank you so much for sharingall of this.
What is one thing that you hopeevery listener to this would
walk away with, whether they'rea therapist or creative or just
somebody, you know, looking tofeel a little bit more whole or
you know, work some things out.
What do you hope that they walkaway with?
SPEAKER_01 (41:15):
So this is not self-interested, because I think
uh, you know, if it wasself-self-interested, I would
just say it's the silver bullet,but it's not so bullet.
That's what I want them to walkaway with.
It's a profound tool.
It's a getting to know yourselffrom a new perspective.
It's being able to gain uminsight into your situation
because of that mild associativepiece, because of the quieting
(41:37):
down of the narrative thinking.
But you need to be doing thiswith intentionality.
If you come and you're with usfor six months and you take this
thing every day and just watchNetflix, you are just not gonna
get as much out of it as if youtake it, you set an intention,
you do a meditative practice,you journal, you take it to your
therapy sessions if you canafford to be in therapy, and you
(41:58):
do the work that you want.
Take this period as a reset,take it as an intentional time
in which you are hoping to getto know your true self, get to
have a better relationship withyour inner wisdom, with your
self-compassion, with yourability to connect to self,
other in the world in a betterway.
It's not a silver bullet, butit's an extremely helpful tool,
(42:21):
a friend on the path.
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (42:23):
Yeah, that's that's awesome.
I love it.
Love to end on that note.
And then people can find youguys at joyous is joyous.com.
Joyce.team.
Joyous.
SPEAKER_01 (42:35):
Joyce.com is someone's wedding site, which is
cool.
Okay, yeah.
Love that.
Yeah, joyous.team.
And if you're a therapist who'sinterested in learning more,
it's joyous.team slash therapy.
Real easy.
SPEAKER_00 (42:46):
Okay, awesome.
I'll put the links for people inthe show notes so it's easy for
you guys to find and just click.
Thanks so much for being here.
This was really insightful.
I think it, like I said, it'ssuper exciting for me on a
personal level just for variousreasons.
I've always I've wanted to knowmore about it, and I'd never
seen it in this way.
Like, this is an interestingprotocol, right?
(43:06):
Like, so it and I I think it'sgonna be pretty life-changing
for a lot of people.
So thanks for being here.
SPEAKER_01 (43:11):
Thank you, Renee.
It's been a really enjoyableconversation.
I really appreciate you.
Thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_00 (43:16):
Okay, wow.
I don't know about you guys, butI think that conversation was
just really super interesting.
I think what I love most aboutthis kind of work is that it
reminds us that healing doesn'thave to mean losing ourselves.
And it's not necessarily aboutescaping reality or, you know,
blowing your consciousness wideopen just to prove something
happened, right?
(43:37):
It's about softening the edgesof your mind enough to actually
hear what the heart and soulmaybe have been trying to say
all along, right?
Because, you know, ayahuasca hasbeen like the conversation for
the last few years.
And and we talked a little bitabout, you know, uh psilocybin
and things like that.
And I have friends who whomicrodose regularly.
I have friends who have gone anddone ayahuasca journeys, and
(44:00):
there is no judgment, judgmentfor me.
You know, I think there's a lotof benefit to plant medicine.
And for some people, that is areally amazing and powerful
experience.
For me, that feels incrediblyterrifying.
And maybe I won't feel like thatdown the road, but I have felt
like that most of my life.
And that's that anxiety brain,right?
(44:21):
It's like, I can't release thatcontrol.
But this feels a little moreaccessible.
Um, I feel like there'ssomething really powerful about
that idea of mind loosening,right?
Whether you ever experienceketamine therapy or not, that
concept is something that we canall play with because so much
growth and creativity comes fromloosening our grip on how we
(44:45):
think things should look andallowing space for something new
to emerge.
We cannot let anything in if weare so tightly constricted.
And those of you who are thosecreative, powerful women who
have a lot of control, butself-described, by the way.
(45:05):
Like people come into mycoaching all the time and say,
I'm a control freak.
Okay, well, if you know thatabout yourself, you also know
that that isn't the space wherethings can drop in.
Right.
We have to loosen the grip foranything to even drop in to us
because if we're constantlytight and constantly trying to
control everything around us,that doesn't leave any room.
(45:28):
That doesn't leave any space forideas, for creativity, for
progress and growth.
And I think that that's kind ofthe sweet spot, right?
Where science meets the sacred,where we can measure the data
and still make room for mystery,where we honor the nervous
system's need for safety and thesoul's desire for expansion.
(45:51):
So here are just a few takeawaysI want you to sit with after
this episode.
Healing doesn't have to bedramatic or profound.
You don't have to have someamazing journey to Costa Rica to
do this.
Sometimes it's as simple as justcreating a safe space to feel
what's really there.
And neuroplasticity isn't just abuzzword.
(46:11):
Your brain and your life aredesigned to evolve when you give
them new gentle inputs.
Another takeaway is thatintegration is everything.
The insight is only thebeginning, and how you live it
is what really creates thelasting change.
And lastly, presence is aportal.
You don't have to check out totune in.
(46:32):
Staying conscious in yourhealing journey is a fabulous
way to rewire whatever it isyou're looking to rewire.
But also, maybe this one too.
You don't have to choose betweenlogic and magic.
You can live right at theintersection of both.
And that's, I think, where thereal transformation happens.
If this conversation openedsomething up for you, go check
(46:54):
her out and her team and herwork at joyous.team.
I'll put that link below.
And as always, if you're cravingyour own version of that
mind-loosening clarity, whetherit's in your business uh for
creativity or personal growth,that's exactly what we do inside
of my coaching containers.
And also inside of Elevate,which is my membership for
(47:15):
female photographers.
I don't uh I don't open thatgroup up to a large number of
people.
Most of the women who are inthat group have been coaching
with me for years.
And it's like my little innercircle that I'm very protective
about.
So we would need to have alittle conversation beforehand
to make sure it's the right fitfor you.
I'm also signing up one-on-oneclients right now inside of my
(47:37):
coaching for January.
Again, I'm not sure when thisepisode is coming out, but
you'll find that link below aswell to apply for coaching.
If you've been feeling the pullor the push that something is
there, something is bigger, yoursoul's ready to evolve.
That's kind of work that I do.
Yeah, we talk about strategy,but we can't really talk about
strategy until we get you sortof out of your own way.
(47:58):
And that's the main reason why Ibecame a coach.
And I don't call myself like amentor necessarily because I'm
not just teaching you whatworked for me.
Yeah, we're gonna dig into somestrategies, but it's gonna be
customized to you and yourbusiness based on who you are,
your level of self-awareness,and how deep you're willing to
(48:21):
go as well.
Because yeah, I have a degree inpsychology.
I feel like I bridged the gap alittle bit between therapist and
coach.
I'm not a therapist, so I don'tcall myself a therapist.
However, most of the work that Ido inside of coaching
containers, especially withone-on-one clients, goes very,
very deep.
I'm a human design two-for.
I'm not designed to stay on thesurface.
I just can't do it.
(48:41):
It's just not how I'm made.
And so I tend to attract womenand a few good men who really,
really, really want to dig deep.
That's the kind of stuff I loveto do.
Okay.
So if that speaks to you, let'schat.
I'm happy to assist you on thatjourney as well.
As always, I'd love to hear yourthoughts on this episode.
Hit me up, let me know.
(49:02):
You can find me at Renee Bowenon Instagram.
You can always just email me aswell.
All the links you need arebelow.
And thanks for tuning in toanother episode of Tried and
True with the Dash of Woo.
I appreciate you.
And I'll see you next time.
Love you.
Bye.
Welcome to Tried and True with the Dash of Woo, where
we blend rock solid tips with alittle bit of magic.
I'm Renee Bowen, your host, lifeand business coach, and
professional photographer.
At your service, we are allabout getting creative, diving
into your business, and playingwith manifestation over here.
So are you ready to get inspiredand have some fun?
Let's dive in.
(00:22):
Hey friends, welcome back toTried and True with a Dash of
Woo.
I'm your host, Renee Bowen.
And two really quick thingsbefore we get into today's
episode and my awesome guest.
So, first thing is that thisepisode is a little different
than I normally do.
I have someone on who is goingto be talking to us.
(00:43):
She is a cognitive psychologist,but we're going to be talking
about a very specific thing,which is psycholytic ketamine
therapy.
So I just want to offer reallyquickly before we get into even
the introduction for her, thatthat could be a little
triggering for some of you,right?
So I just kind of wanted to leadin with a slight trigger
(01:04):
warning, if you will, that weare going to be talking about uh
ketamine.
We're going to be talking aboutusing medicine in treatment for
mental health.
So the episode could be slightlytriggering for some people.
And I just really wanted to namethat really quickly before we
dump jump in.
I think it's a fascinatingtopic.
(01:27):
And I'm, you know, it's one ofthe reasons why I love doing
this podcast.
I didn't realize how much I wasgoing to love doing this
podcast, but this is one of thereasons why I love doing it, is
because it I learn.
I learn so much.
And I'm kind of one of thosepeople, like I just constantly
want to learn.
And this is such a greatopportunity for me to do that.
(01:48):
I can have different people onand guests that come on and talk
to us about all of thesedifferent modalities and
therapies and treatments.
And some of them may be greatfor you, and some of them are
not.
So use your discernment asalways.
But yeah, for me, I think it'sjust very interesting, right?
I just like to kind of like toknow what's going on.
(02:09):
And so that is my little triggerwarning for you.
And then we will get to her, mymy guest, we'll get to her
introduction in just a second.
The other thing I wanted toremind you guys of is that
enrollment for my Januarythrough June Elevate cohort is
officially open.
So Elevate is my small groupcoaching experience for
(02:30):
photographers who are notbeginners, but know that they're
ready for more actual momentumin their business and also for
more support.
The kind of support that helpsyou stop hiding, start being
seen, and finally run yourbusiness like the version of you
that you keep imagining in yourhead.
Okay.
And because you've listened tothis show, I already know that
(02:51):
you value depth and clarity andmindset strategy and building a
business in a way that doesn'tfry your nervous system.
And Elevate is exactly that.
It's a blend of businessstrategy, content clarity,
belief rewiring, nervous systemsupport, and real accountability
without the shame or the hustleculture that so many of us are
(03:12):
already exhausted by.
It is by application onlybecause I curate the space very
intentionally so that everyoneis supported at the level that
they need.
And if something in you islighting up right now, just
hearing that, then I invite youto apply.
The link is in the show notes.
Do it soon because I am closingdown applications shortly.
(03:34):
All right.
So let's jump into today'sepisode, shall we?
So I am always trying to findspaces where science and
spirituality intersect, right?
It's kind of the whole point ofthe show.
And where data and intuitionstop being, you know, enemies
and they start like dancingtogether.
That stuff lights me up.
(03:55):
So today's guest is somebodywho's doing that in a very
interesting way.
Her name is Dr.
Sharon Niv, and she is acognitive psychologist and she's
the co-founder of Joyus, whichis a public benefit corporation
leading the way in psycholyticketamine therapy, which is
essentially a gentler, moregrounded approach to mental
(04:15):
health treatment that's changinghow we think about healing.
When she first told me thatJoyce had treated over 83,000
patients with response rateshigher than most antidepressants
and none of the disassociationpeople expect from psychedelics,
I knew I had to get her on theshow to talk about this.
(04:36):
And again, I know this can be apolarizing and triggering
subject.
So I just invite you to have anopen mind and listen because I
feel like there's a lot ofeducation here for sure.
But what I love most aboutSharon's work is how it honors
both the clinical and themystical.
And it's it's not about checkingout.
That's not what this is.
(04:57):
Okay.
It's literally about waking up.
So I'm super excited to sharethis conversation with you guys.
Let's jump right in.
Hey, Sherry, thanks for beinghere.
I'm really excited about thistopic because I feel like this
is something that has been onpeople's minds.
Like I know, like in my owncircle, like we've we've sort of
been talking about it a littlebit, uh, but there's not a lot
(05:17):
of understanding about it.
So I'm very excited that we'regonna dig deeper into it because
you are the pro in this field.
You started your career incognitive psychology, which is
very evidence-based, verystructured.
What first pulled you towardthis type of work and ultimately
the psycholytic therapy?
SPEAKER_01 (05:36):
So before Joyous, um, I had decided I would
dedicate my life to healingsuffering and raising human
consciousness through whatevermeans are possible.
And I was fairly agnostic on themeans.
Um and since then I've I'vejoked that if I could make the
world meditate two hours a day,I would certainly do that, but
that's not realistic.
(05:57):
And uh this opportunitypresented itself uh through the
team that ended up being theco-founding team.
And I just thought, wow, that'sthat's a huge opportunity
because people do have aninterest in working with
alternate stints ofconsciousness.
And especially when they do itintentionally, it can be quite
profound.
So when we started Joyous Out,and uh, you know, we we launched
(06:20):
officially in early 2022, butwe, of course, the ideation
process is always a bit longerthan that.
Really started talking about itthe summer of 2021.
And our original thinking was todo something in the high-dose
space, which of course alreadyexists.
There are uh certainly clinicsand there are individual
doctors, but there are alsoseveral other telehealth
(06:41):
companies that are providing theopportunity for higher dose
ketamine experiences.
And we're very pro the range ofexperiences that are possible,
but we wanted to do somethingthat's different and that is
better matched to at least some,if not a substantial portion of
the population.
And so these lower doses thatwere um that are called
(07:02):
psycholytic, not psychedelic, ornot dissociative, but partially
dissociative, are a prettydifferent animal when it comes
to working with states ofconsciousness and working with
psychological content.
Um we think of it as askill-building approach rather
than like as a journey toinsight, which is often what you
get with higher dose uhpsychoactive medications.
(07:23):
You're kind of your mind is theone setting the pace, and you
have to sort of submit intothat.
And there's a beauty to that,and there's a power to that.
This is different.
There's still a strong sense inwhich the individual on the
psycholytic dose is able to bequite intentional with their
intentional system.
They can decide what to focuson, they can decide what they
want to touch, investigate, workwith, grow comfortable with.
(07:46):
And the psycholytic state is astrong supporter of that.
So we really do think of it as aquote of go low, go slow.
One of our collaborators gavethat to me.
And it's it's really true.
It is a piecemeal, uh, gentle,gradual approach to getting into
a better relationship withyourself and with states of
consciousness.
SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
That's okay, it's really fascinating to me because
yes, I had heard about thehigher dose, like you said.
Um, I've even had a couple ofpeople, just in my personal life
that I've known who have donethat type of work specifically
for depression, you know,chronic depression.
And they rave about it.
It literally, like they've said,you know, it saved their lives.
(08:27):
Um, and I think that just likeanything else, right?
Like until you really experiencesomething like that, it's really
hard to like for people whodon't deal with these types of
mental issues that, you know,like severe depression, right?
Like, unless you've really kindof dealt with it, it's really
hard to understand what wouldbring someone to this place.
(08:50):
But I feel like this thisconversation is really important
to open people's awareness tothat and dig into these
different options because yeah,those higher doses might feel a
little scary for people.
And what you guys are doing isvery different.
So I want to just touch on thatvery quickly.
You guys do this low dose.
(09:11):
I mean, if is it fair to saysomething that it'd be kind of
like microdosing, or you knowwhat I mean?
Like, are you working with atherapist as well?
So, kind of like give us alittle bit of a framework of
like what that looks like fromthe consumer side of joyous,
real quick before we dive in.
SPEAKER_01 (09:24):
Awesome questions.
Okay, so I think there were atleast two separate ones on
there.
Is that microdosing is a greatconversation?
Um, some people say thatmicrodosing, by definition, is
self-perceptual, meaning likeyou don't notice the changes.
You you may uh you know, takesome microdose psilocybin and
realize, oh, I've been a littlebit more creative today, but it
doesn't necessarily feel allthat different from a
(09:45):
psychoactive perspective.
And those are not the doses thatwe're working with here.
So they are psycholytic.
I don't really you know have astrong opinion about microdose
or not microdose.
Certainly, I think we come up onmicrodosing as a uh search term,
for example.
Yeah.
And I think it's appropriatebecause it's it's it is small
enough that it's manageable in aday-to-day way.
Whereas, you know, with higherdoses, you might want to block
(10:06):
off three to four hours to go tothe clinic and be with your
provider.
Um, some of it is ketamineassisted psychotherapy where
there isn't a therapist orpsychologist there.
Some of it is just ID ketaminewhere you still want to block
off that time because you'requite altered and then you want
someone to drive you home.
So this is this is not that, butit's not subperceptual.
(10:28):
People do experience umphenomenology around it, right?
So people will experience asense of spaciousness.
If you've done a lot ofmeditation and you've grown
familiar with the state of likeopen, open awareness, spacious
awareness, there are somesimilarities between the state
of psycholytic ketamine andspacious awareness.
There is a sense in which you'rebigger than your body.
(10:49):
It's it's a mild associative,right?
So that partial association kindof helps you be both inside and
outside your body.
There's a permeability there.
And it's actually through thatpermeability that's the
sensations of the nervous systemthat got stuck there during
moments of emotional difficultyor trauma.
That's how they can release whenthere is that openness and
(11:11):
spaciousness, which we assume isa relaxation of the
micromusculature that kind ofholds in resistance, not wanting
to let go of and fullyexperience the overwhelming
sensations that are associatedwith negative emotionality and
trauma, right?
Like we do brace against thesedeep difficult emotions for good
(11:32):
reason.
Like they're extremelychallenging and they can be
quite overwhelming to thesystem.
And then ketamine provides thisspaciousness, at least in the
psycholytic state.
I mean, there can be a fullrelease with a high dose stuff,
and that we're again not opposedto high dose at all.
There's a place for it and itcan be transformative, like you
said.
But um, to really slowly developa relationship with some of
(11:54):
these patterns and nervoussystem um activations, it's
useful to be able to go thereagain and again and practice
with.
So that was the first questionyou asked.
I think was about microdosing.
And then the second is what isthe involvement of a clinician?
So um we opted to be the mostaffordable ketamine treatment
that we could find, which is$129a month for a month worth of
(12:17):
medication, plus just being theprogram, which I can describe
some more.
And that means that, you know,for$129 a month, there's no
therapist.
They deserve more than that.
Yeah.
So uh what that means for theroughly 50 to 60 percent we're
estimating patients who don'thave a therapist is that we
create programming for them.
(12:37):
There is currently a course onnervous system regulation.
There are courses on techniquesthey can use in the moment to
when you're triggered.
And we're making courses onself-compassion, we're making
courses on understanding partswork framework.
Or uh we have a lot in thepipeline that I think will be
continuing to serve the needs ofthe patients who don't have
(12:57):
their own therapists.
We also have an online platformwhere there's a forum that's
very supportive.
The patients who participate inthat really derive a lot of
community value from it.
Um, I lead some live sessionsweekly for meditating together
in community, and I think it'sgoing to grow soon.
Thinking of making offeringslike let's do a community
(13:18):
greeting.
Um I think that would be reallybeautiful.
There are things we just don'tmake space for in our society
that it's useful to at leastmake as an offering.
So that's about 50% of thepopulation that comes to
assistations probably don't havea therapist because they can't
afford it.
About 9% of our uh patient baseactually has financial aid
(13:39):
because we really want to makethis available.
Now, the 40 to 48% who do havetherapists, um, I say this uh a
lot, but one thing we heard froma patient that really rings in
my mind was on my own, I usethis medicine to build positive
habits with my therapist.
I dig into the dark stuff.
(13:59):
And we um are coming out with atherapist collaboration program
called Joyous for Therapists.
And it is a free program fortherapists to belong to.
We did put together acertificate program that's like
fully APA accredited, continuingeducation units, full shebang,
real deals coming out atNovember.
(14:20):
It is coming out this month, andit'll allow therapists to learn
how to use these lower doses.
There are several existingprograms for higher dose work
with Ketamate or withpsychedelics in general.
There are various excellenttraining programs for that, but
this psycholytic model is alittle bit of a different
animal.
And in a sense, you know, firstwe thought, is this even
(14:40):
necessary?
All they're doing is the samework they're already doing.
It's just that the patients,their clients, are coming in
better able to engage in thework.
They're less resistant, they'remore open.
The academy is a neuroplasticagent, so they there's a sense
in which doing the work impactsthem in an even longer term way.
(15:01):
Just do your work.
But that wasn't enough.
You know, it is understandably,therapists are cautious.
They have this weighty, preciousthing of uh a human life in
their hands.
They also have licensees toprotect, understandably.
They want to know what they'redoing.
So we did put together a wholeprogram um led by experienced
clinicians who know how to usethese doses that examines all of
(15:26):
the scientific sides of things,protocols, um, best practices
around safety, ethics, the legalstuff, all of it.
It's it's a full program that'scoming out.
And so the hope is to havepatients be able to go to their
own therapists and say, I wantto bring this medicine into our
work together.
Would you want to participate inthis program so that we can make
(15:46):
the most out?
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
That's really cool.
Okay, so yeah, that's comingout.
That's for therapists, and thatis coming out this month in
November as the time of thisrecording.
Not sure when this the episodewill air, but just want to make
sure if you are a therapist andyou're looking into that kind of
work, that's really fascinating.
And I think it's really it'sgreat that you guys are making
it so accessible, I think, andalso doing that deeper work of
(16:08):
training.
Because yeah, I mean, I feellike there is a lot of
misunderstanding, misconception.
So let's kind of like get intothat real quick.
Um, first of all, what isketamine?
Like a lot of people are like,isn't that what Matthew Perry
died of?
And isn't that what you go, youknow, like when you're in
surgery?
Don't they give you that?
Like, you know what I mean?
Like there's a lot of thingsthat you hear online.
(16:31):
Um, what is ketamine?
And then also, like, what wouldsomeone maybe possibly even
experience a little bit withthese low doses?
SPEAKER_01 (16:41):
So, yes, ketamine is a dissociative anesthetic.
It is, it doesn't repress the uhrespiratory system at all.
So it's considered one of thesafest.
It's considered a battlefieldanesthetic.
It's routinely used in surgerieswith children because it's so
safe.
It is, it has a remarkably highsafety profile.
But what another thing that'sinteresting about ketamine is
(17:02):
that there are different tiersof dosing that all lead to
really different experiences.
High enough, and you areanesthetic.
Yeah.
You are out.
And one of the interestingthings and heartbreaking things
about the Matthew Carey case,uh, first of all, he drowned.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, exactly.
It wasn't that ketamine killedhim, it's that ketamine
anesthetized him enough that hedrowned in a hot tub, which is
(17:24):
an it's a known phenomenon thatused to be a problem in the 70s
and 80s.
People took it and got intotheir um uh uh sensory
deprivation pods, and peopledied.
And don't do that.
Yeah.
So um the other thing is you canlook this up in the New York
Times, Matthew Perry is found tohave anesthetic levels of
ketamine in his system when hedied, which is insane.
(17:44):
Like a not it not a judgment,it's it's incredible how much he
had in his system.
And a person with who was morenaive to the medicine would just
have been out completely.
Um so high enough doseanesthetic, go a little bit
lower, and you get into what iskind of known the K-hole
territory.
Okay.
So there's still it's an egodeath, which you know, I I
(18:07):
personally believe ego deathalways has a benefit to us.
It's sort of it's like ainformation to the system that
our current way of constructingreality is not the only
available one.
And I have a friend who said,and I think he's I think he's
right, that the high, high dosepsychedelic state of ketamine,
which maybe is a little lowerthan K-hole, is actually what he
(18:30):
imagined a psychedelicexperience would be like when he
was a teenager.
And really, when he took LSD orpsilocybin, it ended up being
quite different.
But ketamine in its likepsychedelic state, and there is
a conversation in the academicfield about whether it's
psychedelic or not psychedelicbecause it doesn't work on
serotonin, which is what LSD andpsilocybin and ayahuasca and and
(18:50):
I'm again all classicpsychedelics, all are
serotinergic.
They work on a particularreceptor called 5-HT2A.
Ketamine doesn't touch serotoninas far as we know.
It's it's so complex that itmight, but its primary mechanism
of action is on the glutamatesystem, which is the primary
excitatory uh neurotransmitterin the brain.
(19:11):
So it's like one of the most uhprevalent neurotransmitter
systems in the brain.
Every time a neuron activates,there's some uh some involvement
of glutamate in there.
And so the fact that ketamineworks on glutamate means that
the effects can be really quitewidespread.
And that's why, for example, uh,I was reading about it from the
(19:31):
perspective of like psychonauts,people who go on psychedelic
journey for more lesstherapeutic and more
consciousness uh basedactivities.
And it just seems like itamplifies and changes the
effects of like most otherpsychoactive medications,
psilocybin or mDNA.
They they have an interactionthat's very interesting.
(19:53):
It's probably because of thiswidespread nature of glutamate.
Um, so you asked about what.
Is ketamine.
So we we got from anestheticlevel, K-hole, psychedelic, and
then you get to psycholytic.
And in the psycholytic doses,psychiatrist psychologists have
the term fully oriented.
That means oriented to self, whoare you, to situation, what are
(20:16):
you doing, and to location,where are you?
You're fully oriented with theselower doses.
Okay.
You know exactly who you are,what you're doing, uh, who
you're talking to.
It makes it really perfect fortherapy enhancement.
It's just that in addition toall of that, there are effects,
as we mentioned, that are quitespacious.
(20:36):
So there is a sense in which youfeel like you're both inside and
outside your body.
You can observe the sensationsof your system almost as though
you're suddenly a big room andthey're happening within.
Our general experience withdifficult emotions is that we
feel really fused with them.
You know, we feel reallyidentified with them.
They can be quite overwhelming.
It feels like they take over theentire system.
(20:59):
Ketamine makes you the size ofthe room, the sensations stay
there, and you're able toobserve them, to understand
them, to relate to them in waysthat produce much more safety
and much less vulnerable.
One of the therapists in ourcommunity described it as a
blanket of safety that allowsher patients, her clients to go
into places they haven't beenable to quite before.
(21:21):
And so, yeah, the experience isthere is a somatic experience.
Um, and people differ in howthey uh relate to it.
It's kind of buzzy, and somepeople quite like it.
Some people take some timegetting used to it.
There is a spaciousness whichcan lead to some lightheadedness
that's kind of normal if it'stoo strong, or we have a full
(21:44):
nursing staff that's like thereto help work through any
preventive side effects, anylike mild dizziness, any um
nausea, which isn't terriblycommon, but can happen mostly
because I think it's more of auh like car sickness effect,
more emotion sickness than itis, um uh stomach sickness.
So we have a full nursing staffto help you get through that
(22:06):
into the place where you feelkind of at ease with it.
There's a relaxation componentto it too.
It's been unbelievable how manypeople I've spoken to in our
program who said, I no longerneed that glass or tooth wine a
day.
Yeah.
Just take this and it helps meget back into a state of
relaxation, but that that's somuch less harmful to my body
(22:27):
than alcohol.
SPEAKER_00 (22:29):
Yeah, and so many other pharmaceuticals too that
people take for sleep becausethey maybe have anxiety and
depression and they can't sleepbecause of the burden of that.
You know what I mean?
Like so many people deal withsleep issues because of what
they're dealing with on thedaily.
So they can't get into that deepsleep, that restorative sleep
(22:50):
that we know is so incrediblyimportant.
So I imagine that that also justin and of itself would have a
really positive effect in aswell as the the psycholytic
effects, you know, as we weretalking about before.
But what I find interesting isthis this sort of like
spaciousness, right?
Because yeah, there's a lot ofdifferent ways that people
(23:10):
can't, like you said, like westarted off talking about like I
wish people could meditate fortwo hours a day.
Like, yeah, but that's notreally something that a lot of
people can do.
But also the body really doeshold so much.
I mean, I was a massagetherapist for years, a long time
ago.
I'm a very big believer in thismind-body connection.
And I mean, I just got back froma retreat where one of the other
(23:33):
retreat members that this iswhat she does.
She's like a body alchemist.
Like she's a psychologist and amassage therapist, and she's
created her own system of likehelping people access what
you're holding in your body, howit is affecting you and helping
you move through it.
But that's not really easy for alot of people to do.
(23:54):
You have to sort of get, as youknow, especially if you're
dealing with like major trauma,right?
Like we know that that thiswould be, I'm sure, really super
effective for those people toget to that conscious observer
where it's not like judging,because a lot of people with
major depression have the cycleof self-hatred that runs on that
(24:16):
loop.
And that in and of itself isfeels almost impossible for
people with major depression tostop to get to the point of a
conscious observer to even dothe work.
So that is like, I think amazingthat it is a facilitator for
that.
Um, and so I know that you'vesaid in some of the talks that
(24:40):
you've done that you're seeinglike a 68% response rate for
depression in general, which isreally huge.
Do you think that that's what isthe major effect?
Like, what do you what do youthink about it?
Um, and is that the the bulk ofyour clients, right?
Like, are do people come to youfor anxiety, for instance, too?
Like, or or do they kind of likekind of go hand in hand?
SPEAKER_01 (25:00):
Um, yeah, the major indications that we see patients
for are uh depression, anxiety,and PTSD.
68% is I think a bit of anunderstatement because that's
how we clinically define change,which would ends up being about
two drops in game severity oneither the depression or anxiety
scale that we use to get uh ifyou're gonna look at anyone, I I
(25:21):
think it's uh to be honest, kindof a silly metric.
But when we looked at even onepoint drop, we got to 92%, 94,
92 percent.
So either you're kind of stayingwhere you there's very little
deterioration, it was under 1%,uh, either staying where you are
or or achieving some sort ofbenefit.
And so, yes, the people who comein have depression, anxiety, and
(25:43):
PTSD.
And I think as you said, uh partof what's happening there is a
respite from the spaciousawareness that we talked about
that shares uh qualities withpsycholytic ketamine state.
Um, another shared experiencethere is a quieting of the
narrative mind, for sure.
(26:04):
And as you said, withdepression, you get this
ruminative and self-criticalvoice that can be extremely
active.
With anxiety, it's you know,sometimes a little bit of a
different flavor, morecatastrophizing, more of like an
obsessive evaluation of thedanger zone, but still there's a
(26:24):
very loud voice that then'sundefined dominating.
And what the cycleitic ketaminestate provides is a respite from
that.
And it endures too, right?
So you have about the 40 to 16minutes that are quite
psychoactive, not quite.
I mean, you're you're able tofunction, don't drive, right?
You're able to function, butstill there's a quietness that
happens there.
But it that quietness can endurethree to four hours at least
(26:48):
post each dose.
And over time, as patients beginto develop to stronger
relationships and moreself-compassionate relationships
with themselves and their parts,the baseline shifts.
So they no longer have to betaking this medicine on a
regular basis, at least the vastmajority don't, to still feel um
a reductive change in just howloud the voice in the head is.
(27:13):
The mechanism of action, as wesaid, is that it is highly
neuroplastic.
So what's happening there isformation of new dendritic and
synaptic qualities in the brain.
So dendrites are the pieces ofthe neuron that sort of um
receive uh neurotransmittersfrom the presynaptic neuron, and
then synapses are just theconnections between the neurons.
(27:36):
So both of those increase.
Both the postsynaptic neurons'ability to receive and the
connection between neuronsincrease as a result of
ketamine.
And so what this does suggest isthat if you're taking ketamine
and then like watching horrormovies and beating yourself up
the entire time, you know, youcould cause some damage.
(27:56):
But what seems to happennaturally because of this
spaciousness and the quietnessis that people do enter into a
state that allows for release oflong-held emotions and an
experience with the quiet mind.
And that's what gets reinforced.
SPEAKER_00 (28:15):
Okay, yeah.
That makes so much sense.
I really am fascinated by thisum this sort of bridge melding
of like the scientific rigor,right?
And then honoring this likemystery of consciousness at the
same time.
Like, I I love that thatconversation a little bit.
(28:36):
Um, and also like you mentioned,the brain's ability to change.
Like that is so incrediblyinteresting.
Like, someone might be a littlehesitant maybe about doing this
because they might feel like,okay, this is like a uh forever
sort of thing, or but now, like,let's kind of dig into that a
little bit about thisneuroplasticity and how you
(28:57):
know, you mentioned the theactual physical changes that can
happen in the brain, but thenalso like, what about the soul's
ability to also evolve fromthere?
And like, how do they dancetogether that you've seen?
SPEAKER_01 (29:11):
Love that.
Um, so we talk a lot in theguidance that we give with the
digital therapeutics.
As you remember, like over halfof our patients don't actually
have therapists.
So we do try to provide themwith guidance.
We talk a lot about innerwisdom, true nature, and that
this medicine gives you anability to connect to that much
more directly.
(29:32):
And just spontaneously, it seemslike what we've sort of seen in
the neuroscience literature isthat when there's a reduction in
activity of what's known as thedefault mode network, and that
is a network of brain regionsthat seems to get active when we
are in self-referential states,like when you're stage reading,
(29:53):
when you're evaluating, should Ihave said that, when you're
thinking of yourself, when allof that is the default mode
network, and it's called defaultbecause that's if you're not
like actively working on solvinga task, that's what sort of
happens.
It was funny how it wasdiscovered in um the big fMRI
magnets.
They told people, yeah, just liethere and do nothing.
And it turns out we don't donothing, you know, we like think
(30:15):
about whether or not we shouldhave said that thing and kind of
evaluate ourselves and have thatyou know negative talk,
self-talk happening.
So that's how they, you know,discovered this default thing.
Um, now psychedelics in generalappear to reduce activity in the
default mode network.
They appear to change thebalance from top down, which
means you experience lifethrough your beliefs to bottom
(30:38):
up, which is experiencing lifethrough the senses.
And ketamine also has theproperty of quieting the default
mode network down.
Now, again, it's it's very dosedependent.
If you're having an ego death inyour K-hole, then your default
mode network is by definitionjust offline.
But um, with these psycholyticstates, you still have a sense
(31:00):
of self, you still know who youare, you still can process the
world, but it is quiet.
The voice is quieter, thatnetwork activity is quieter.
And goodness, where are we goingwith this?
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
Um I don't I love though that the bridge between
the two, right?
Like so Oh, I'm sorry.
Evolution, I know.
SPEAKER_01 (31:19):
Yeah, I totally remembered.
It seems to be that when thatnetwork is quieter, people have
more spiritual experiences,right?
Which so accords with Buddhistphilosophy.
When you quiet down the mind andthe ego and you see what's
underneath, what's underneath ismore truly you than that voice
(31:39):
ever was.
And it's compassionate.
IFS certainly sees this too,wise mind from DBT.
Your true nature, what'sunderneath the egoic thinking
mind, is always going to be morepeaceful, truer, more
compassionate, more caring, moreconnected, and better
functioning.
And ketamine gives people,sometimes for the first time,
(32:02):
people who were really notraised in spiritual
circumstances, an experiencethat many people consider quite
spiritual.
Some people really talk aboutconnecting to a higher power,
experiencing life through thesevery new lenses, but if nothing
else, it quiets down thethinking mind enough to connect
to a deeper part of you, to awiser part of you.
(32:24):
So, you know, we can forgetmetaphysics for a moment, right?
I don't, I don't know what'sreal and what's not real, but I
know that these medicines canhelp us to connect to something
within us that feels deeper andtruer.
SPEAKER_00 (32:35):
Yeah, that makes so much sense because I mean,
literally, I always say this,especially with my coaching
students, and just remindingmyself is like the secret to
life is just kind of letting go,right?
Like that's the letting go,letting go, letting go, letting
go is so powerful, but it's so,so hard for so many of us,
especially these high achievingwomen that I work with.
Um, the the pushing, thehustling, the living in our
(32:57):
masculine.
There's so, so, so much of this.
It's rampant.
I'm in a lot of female founderspaces.
And, you know, I see it workingwith creative women, especially
and that active mind.
I just want to kind of touch onthat for a second because I
have, I have gone through aperiod of deep depression once
in my life.
(33:18):
But really, what I have dealtwith my entire life that I
didn't really even know that itwas called that until much later
was severe OCD anxiety.
And it wasn't really talkedabout like when I was a kid, but
I can remember, like even as achild, having just like these,
like the loop, the loop of thecatastrophizing, I call it the
(33:38):
anxiety highway.
I have to go all the way, allthe way to the end of the
highway, and just like see,okay, and then we die.
You know what I mean?
Like comes to like everythingand then and then we die.
Um, because that's like theworst thing.
So I can imagine that.
I mean, I've never done thistype of work myself.
And I'm gonna be honest, likeI've been terrified about the
(33:59):
whole like microdosingpsilocybin thing anyway, just
because like a lot of people saythat it's just so freeing and
opens, but I am a control freak.
I have anxiety, you know, that'snot something that I'm gonna
feel really good about doing,honestly.
But I can imagine that givingyourself the space and to quiet
that loop for people who livewith anxiety.
(34:20):
I I know this we touched ondepression, but like those of us
who deal with that type of OCDanxiety, I can imagine how truly
life-changing that could be tojust even have your first moment
of that quiet.
Like people live their wholelives, not even really knowing
(34:40):
that that's kind of like theyjust feel like the well, this is
how I am.
And then they do something likethis, and I can imagine how
powerful that is for people.
I'm sure you see that a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (34:48):
Yeah, there's there's a direct vote of uh I
didn't know how much anxiety Iwas carrying to like lift it for
the first time.
Just the layer there and itlifts.
There's this we feel like 10pounds lighter.
Like you took them backpack offthe shoulders.
SPEAKER_00 (35:03):
Oh that's that's awesome.
I mean, honestly, like assomeone who has dealt with that
and have I have clients who dealwith that, I can imagine what
relief that is for people.
Like, yes, I've been able to getto that place to other methods
of meditation and hypnosis andunconscious work.
But I mean, it is it thatrepresents over that's like 30
(35:26):
years of work for me.
You know what I mean?
Like that's of like work andlike digging into it and being
willing to go there and gettingto the point where I'm I'm yeah,
honestly, being in massagetherapy school was like my first
taste of it in the early 90sbecause I was getting body work
all the time.
We were practicing on eachother.
I had no idea that it was gonnacrack me open.
SPEAKER_01 (35:46):
You were caring, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:47):
Yeah, I had no idea.
I was like, oh, I'm justlearning how to be a massage
therapist.
And and like within like acouple of months, I was just
like like a mess because I hadbeen holding so much in my body,
and it had no choice but to getout now because I was getting
work on every single day.
(36:08):
And I had to like reallyintentionally process the things
that were coming out.
And it was like a I had to trustthat this was like what I signed
up for.
You know what I mean?
Like I had to really kind of gothere with myself.
It's like, nope, I was guided tothis for a reason.
Yes, this is scary, this isterrifying.
I'd never cried that much in myentire life.
And I had been in therapybefore, and I was like, this is
(36:31):
this is a lot.
So I can imagine people who hadnever really even dug into that.
And I love that this isbridging, like you said before,
um, this gap of people who andmaking it accessible to people
who may not otherwise be able toreally afford it.
So I do want to touch on thatfor a second before we start to,
(36:52):
you know, kind of wrap up.
And I, and we definitely willbe, you know, I want to before
we wrap up, I want to talk abouthow people can find you and and
and work with this and all ofthat, and and therapists as
well, like you said before.
But you co-founded Joyce as thispublic benefit corporation,
which is not really somethingthat you hear about every day,
right?
Like, so I want to talk to you alittle bit about the mission
(37:13):
here.
SPEAKER_01 (37:13):
Totally.
Um, so public benefitcorporation is not a nonprofit,
but it does mean that we uh inour charter, we put mission
above shareholder value.
So right now we're privatelyowned anyway, but should we ever
IPO, that is a signal to themarket and to any potential
shareholders that we will makedecisions that benefit our
(37:35):
patients because that is themission of the company, the
mission of company is to enablecommun individuals and
communities to live joyfullives.
And so there, if there's goingto be some decision about, oh,
we can raise the price a littlebit and opt, nope, that's not
going to happen because part ofour mission is to make it
accessible.
Um, so yes, we are living inaccordance with our mission.
(38:00):
And um yeah, being a publicbenefits corporation is
something we feel really goodabout.
And then you had a secondquestion about how people could
find us, or was there one?
SPEAKER_00 (38:08):
Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about that before
you wrap up.
Um, you know, especially like Ikind of wanted to just mention
because like even therapistburnout is a thing, you know,
and especially now.
I feel like since the pandemic,I mean, there's so many people
who need the mental health helpin general.
(38:29):
And I see a lot of young peoplegoing into psychology and going,
you know, wanting to becometherapists, which I think is
great.
But burnout is a real thing inin the healing world as well.
So talk to me a little bit abouthow you guys are helping the
therapists as well, stayregulated and inspired while
holding this space for people aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (38:51):
So we just started this program about two months
ago.
We've already had like 250 or300 therapists sign up, which is
really exciting.
And I think as the as thetraining program comes out in
November of this month, thenwe'll be able to advertise more
broadly.
Just come learn about this.
How do we support thetherapists?
There is a module in thetraining that's all about the
(39:12):
importance of self-care andremembering that when you take
on the energy of such deepsuffering and like really the
soul struggles of your of yourclients, like this is sacred
work therapy.
Yes, you absorb some of it, andyou need to be able to be
supported by your peers, by yourloved ones.
You need to engage in deliberateself-care, you need to do the
(39:34):
body work to release what yourtissues are holding.
Um, and we do um we do encouragethe therapist who join the
program to try out the uhprotocol themselves.
We provide them three months ofcompletely at cost treatment.
We need like what it costs us tohave them meet with the provider
twice in that first month andship out the medicine.
(39:57):
Like, we're we're not making anymoney off the therapists who
want to try.
This for at least a couple ofmonths because we do want them
to know that's a resource forthem as well.
I am holding um weekly sessionsof meet space for the therapists
to get to know and support oneanother.
We're going to start doing likebreakout groups this week, which
is something that theyrequested.
Um, if the program succeeds tothe extent that we're hoping
(40:20):
we'll post the certificateprogram, we'd love to host
workshops.
We've had some amazingpractitioners offer to workshops
for us on how do you combinethese doses of academy with
EMDR, with IFS, with workingwith LGBTQ populations, with you
know with um OCD, differentmodalities, different
populations, different uhconditions.
(40:41):
How do you work with all ofthat?
How do we support one anotherthrough this?
And yeah, I mean absolutely soimportant for therapists to be
able to take care of their ownsystems when you're holding
others, you know, the foundationneeds to draw.
SPEAKER_00 (40:55):
Yeah, that's so important.
This is so exciting.
Thank you so much for sharingall of this.
What is one thing that you hopeevery listener to this would
walk away with, whether they'rea therapist or creative or just
somebody, you know, looking tofeel a little bit more whole or
you know, work some things out.
What do you hope that they walkaway with?
SPEAKER_01 (41:15):
So this is not self-interested, because I think
uh, you know, if it wasself-self-interested, I would
just say it's the silver bullet,but it's not so bullet.
That's what I want them to walkaway with.
It's a profound tool.
It's a getting to know yourselffrom a new perspective.
It's being able to gain uminsight into your situation
because of that mild associativepiece, because of the quieting
(41:37):
down of the narrative thinking.
But you need to be doing thiswith intentionality.
If you come and you're with usfor six months and you take this
thing every day and just watchNetflix, you are just not gonna
get as much out of it as if youtake it, you set an intention,
you do a meditative practice,you journal, you take it to your
therapy sessions if you canafford to be in therapy, and you
(41:58):
do the work that you want.
Take this period as a reset,take it as an intentional time
in which you are hoping to getto know your true self, get to
have a better relationship withyour inner wisdom, with your
self-compassion, with yourability to connect to self,
other in the world in a betterway.
It's not a silver bullet, butit's an extremely helpful tool,
(42:21):
a friend on the path.
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (42:23):
Yeah, that's that's awesome.
I love it.
Love to end on that note.
And then people can find youguys at joyous is joyous.com.
Joyce.team.
Joyous.
SPEAKER_01 (42:35):
Joyce.com is someone's wedding site, which is
cool.
Okay, yeah.
Love that.
Yeah, joyous.team.
And if you're a therapist who'sinterested in learning more,
it's joyous.team slash therapy.
Real easy.
SPEAKER_00 (42:46):
Okay, awesome.
I'll put the links for people inthe show notes so it's easy for
you guys to find and just click.
Thanks so much for being here.
This was really insightful.
I think it, like I said, it'ssuper exciting for me on a
personal level just for variousreasons.
I've always I've wanted to knowmore about it, and I'd never
seen it in this way.
Like, this is an interestingprotocol, right?
(43:06):
Like, so it and I I think it'sgonna be pretty life-changing
for a lot of people.
So thanks for being here.
SPEAKER_01 (43:11):
Thank you, Renee.
It's been a really enjoyableconversation.
I really appreciate you.
Thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_00 (43:16):
Okay, wow.
I don't know about you guys, butI think that conversation was
just really super interesting.
I think what I love most aboutthis kind of work is that it
reminds us that healing doesn'thave to mean losing ourselves.
And it's not necessarily aboutescaping reality or, you know,
blowing your consciousness wideopen just to prove something
happened, right?
(43:37):
It's about softening the edgesof your mind enough to actually
hear what the heart and soulmaybe have been trying to say
all along, right?
Because, you know, ayahuasca hasbeen like the conversation for
the last few years.
And and we talked a little bitabout, you know, uh psilocybin
and things like that.
And I have friends who whomicrodose regularly.
I have friends who have gone anddone ayahuasca journeys, and
(44:00):
there is no judgment, judgmentfor me.
You know, I think there's a lotof benefit to plant medicine.
And for some people, that is areally amazing and powerful
experience.
For me, that feels incrediblyterrifying.
And maybe I won't feel like thatdown the road, but I have felt
like that most of my life.
And that's that anxiety brain,right?
(44:21):
It's like, I can't release thatcontrol.
But this feels a little moreaccessible.
Um, I feel like there'ssomething really powerful about
that idea of mind loosening,right?
Whether you ever experienceketamine therapy or not, that
concept is something that we canall play with because so much
growth and creativity comes fromloosening our grip on how we
(44:45):
think things should look andallowing space for something new
to emerge.
We cannot let anything in if weare so tightly constricted.
And those of you who are thosecreative, powerful women who
have a lot of control, butself-described, by the way.
(45:05):
Like people come into mycoaching all the time and say,
I'm a control freak.
Okay, well, if you know thatabout yourself, you also know
that that isn't the space wherethings can drop in.
Right.
We have to loosen the grip foranything to even drop in to us
because if we're constantlytight and constantly trying to
control everything around us,that doesn't leave any room.
(45:28):
That doesn't leave any space forideas, for creativity, for
progress and growth.
And I think that that's kind ofthe sweet spot, right?
Where science meets the sacred,where we can measure the data
and still make room for mystery,where we honor the nervous
system's need for safety and thesoul's desire for expansion.
(45:51):
So here are just a few takeawaysI want you to sit with after
this episode.
Healing doesn't have to bedramatic or profound.
You don't have to have someamazing journey to Costa Rica to
do this.
Sometimes it's as simple as justcreating a safe space to feel
what's really there.
And neuroplasticity isn't just abuzzword.
(46:11):
Your brain and your life aredesigned to evolve when you give
them new gentle inputs.
Another takeaway is thatintegration is everything.
The insight is only thebeginning, and how you live it
is what really creates thelasting change.
And lastly, presence is aportal.
You don't have to check out totune in.
(46:32):
Staying conscious in yourhealing journey is a fabulous
way to rewire whatever it isyou're looking to rewire.
But also, maybe this one too.
You don't have to choose betweenlogic and magic.
You can live right at theintersection of both.
And that's, I think, where thereal transformation happens.
If this conversation openedsomething up for you, go check
(46:54):
her out and her team and herwork at joyous.team.
I'll put that link below.
And as always, if you're cravingyour own version of that
mind-loosening clarity, whetherit's in your business uh for
creativity or personal growth,that's exactly what we do inside
of my coaching containers.
And also inside of Elevate,which is my membership for
(47:15):
female photographers.
I don't uh I don't open thatgroup up to a large number of
people.
Most of the women who are inthat group have been coaching
with me for years.
And it's like my little innercircle that I'm very protective
about.
So we would need to have alittle conversation beforehand
to make sure it's the right fitfor you.
I'm also signing up one-on-oneclients right now inside of my
(47:37):
coaching for January.
Again, I'm not sure when thisepisode is coming out, but
you'll find that link below aswell to apply for coaching.
If you've been feeling the pullor the push that something is
there, something is bigger, yoursoul's ready to evolve.
That's kind of work that I do.
Yeah, we talk about strategy,but we can't really talk about
strategy until we get you sortof out of your own way.
(47:58):
And that's the main reason why Ibecame a coach.
And I don't call myself like amentor necessarily because I'm
not just teaching you whatworked for me.
Yeah, we're gonna dig into somestrategies, but it's gonna be
customized to you and yourbusiness based on who you are,
your level of self-awareness,and how deep you're willing to
(48:21):
go as well.
Because yeah, I have a degree inpsychology.
I feel like I bridged the gap alittle bit between therapist and
coach.
I'm not a therapist, so I don'tcall myself a therapist.
However, most of the work that Ido inside of coaching
containers, especially withone-on-one clients, goes very,
very deep.
I'm a human design two-for.
I'm not designed to stay on thesurface.
I just can't do it.
(48:41):
It's just not how I'm made.
And so I tend to attract womenand a few good men who really,
really, really want to dig deep.
That's the kind of stuff I loveto do.
Okay.
So if that speaks to you, let'schat.
I'm happy to assist you on thatjourney as well.
As always, I'd love to hear yourthoughts on this episode.
Hit me up, let me know.
(49:02):
You can find me at Renee Bowenon Instagram.
You can always just email me aswell.
All the links you need arebelow.
And thanks for tuning in toanother episode of Tried and
True with the Dash of Woo.
I appreciate you.
And I'll see you next time.
Love you.
Bye.
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