May 9, 2025 • 26 mins
It's a spooky special this week, as Adam relives his trip to the Czech Republic, where he visited the infamous Sedlec Ossuary aka The Church of Bones. Just 80kms east of Prague, in the town of Kutna Hora, Central Bohemia, stands a church like few others. Dating back to the 15th century and decorated with over 40,000 skeletons, this dark and macabre tourist attraction is for those seeking something a little more surreal.
Stay tuned for the second half as we tackle a question from a fellow Tripologist. This week's Hostel Common Room sees us recommending mini adventures to a family looking to backpack together for the very first time!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I went to the Church of Boneless.
To play the theme music. Hello, welcome to this episode
of Tribology. I'm Alan and I'm here with the
(00:21):
ever ossified Adam. Turning into bone mate One
interesting fact about me is that I have never ever broken a
bone in my body. Neither have I apart from the
old schnoz. All the bones I was supposed to
breakthrough childhood like oh you've broken your collarbone,
you've broken your arm, all concentrated down.
I just broke my nose like 5 times instead.
(00:42):
Surely breaking your nose countsas breaking a bone in your body
though, right? Well, I don't know, because
there's a lot of cartilage in there and I'm not sure exactly
what broke. I just know that it broke, you
know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.
Well, were you a bit of a adrenaline junkie when you were
younger? Yeah.
I mean, you are now. We've done some things that I
would never do. I.
Used to run nose first into everything.
That was how I got my kicks backin the day.
Although the kids were bouncing on trampolines and dirt biking,
(01:04):
I was just doing the old Run with Your Nose game and that
resulted in some pretty unusual breakages.
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's probably quite strange for
someone of my age, you know, theripe old age of 35, having lived
around the world, done a whole host of things, travelling and
all these travel activities thatwe get involved in regarding
motorbikes and bungee jumps. I haven't done a bungee jump but
(01:27):
but yeah, I mean, not broken a bone.
I think of have I been Molly coddled?
I've definitely muddy Molly coddled you a little bit.
When we've been travelling together.
I feel like I basically go around.
When we were on Patunda's Glacier, I was just trying to
get behind you and make sure youwouldn't fall, make sure you
wouldn't slip. So I can only assume other
people have done similar things whilst they've been travelling
with you. Actually you make a good point
(01:50):
on that glacier. Passive glacier at Patunda's.
Maybe it's easy for you to understand why I haven't ever
broken a bone on my body. Because it took me, I don't know
about what, 45 minutes to get over that tiny little Ridge.
And I was taking taking my sweettime and taking my sweet care.
Very careful, aren't you? Have you ever seen one of your
bones? Because I have.
You know, I've had the glory of seeing one of my own bones in
(02:12):
the flesh when I Or out of the flesh, as the case may be.
When I was on that motorcycle crash in Vietnam, my forearm
bone had the decency to emerge to the world.
It just showed itself, unbroken but unsurrounded by skin.
Well, I mean, hopefully no one'seating their dinner while
they're listening to this, but it's interesting you mention
(02:33):
that because I would quite like to talk to you about me seeing a
hell of a lot of bones, althoughthere was no flesh.
I wonder why we embarked on thisbone chat?
Because it's not like every episode of Topology we start
with a different part of the human body.
Today we're talking about bones.So why are we speaking so much
about ossification? Bones, that skeletal structure
(02:54):
which prevents you from being just a a big mucosal flab of
skin. We're we're rebranding as
biology. No, it's so as you know, mate,
I'm here in New Zealand. I've been here for a couple of
months now, but there was a hugechunk of my trip through Europe
that we've missed and I've done a load of things that we didn't
have time to talk about. So now we're just going to
(03:15):
backtrack a little bit and talk about one of my experiences in
the Czech Republic, where I visited the very famous Church
of Bones. And what do you say to your
detractors that say the reason we're not talking about New
Zealand and we are backtracking is because fuck all has happened
to either of us in the last two weeks as we're frantically
searching for jobs and planning out our future adventures?
(03:37):
I mean, yeah, just to just to make sure that it doesn't become
just a weekly catch up about me and you online hunting for jobs
or booking flights. Welcome to Tripology.
Oh, I'd basically be doing a jobapplication.
I've been booking a flight. Bye.
Yeah, we've saved people a lot of time, wouldn't it?
Oh, this week I had a job interview.
I didn't get that job either. So I mean there is obviously
(04:01):
interesting stuff that's happened and sometimes when
things happen in quick succession, I mean what we're
going to do, we're going to release an episode every day.
Of course not. We need to bank that sort of
stuff and then release it two months down the line.
OK, well, I'm happy to backtrackbecause God knows that the
future episodes coming up are going to be really crazy.
I am flying tomorrow to Asia. I'm flying to the Philippines.
So there's crazy stuff in the future.
(04:23):
But let's go in reverse and hearabout your bone adventures,
baby. So as a man of many interests,
Bones being one of them, I always say that.
Bones being all of them. How many bones are in the human
body? Do you know that?
200 and something. OK, and maybe that wouldn't win
US the prize money, but you do know, Alan, that you are the one
(04:44):
person that I would want at the other end of the phone if I had
What's that guy who wants to be a millionaire?
I mean, you would be the person I called in almost every
situation. So phone.
A friend, yeah. You phone a friend, phone a
friend. I wish that you were there for
this one because I think you'd find it really interesting.
Now, I didn't know anything about it, not doing any
research. However, I was in Prague, the
lovely city of Prague, and having a wonderful time with my
(05:06):
dear friend Iris, who is a lady from the Netherlands, and we met
back in 2015 in Malaysia. We travelled some of Malaysia
together. It was awesome actually, thanks
to her that I did my advanced diving in Malaysia through her
sort of support and encouragement.
And then we moved to Melbourne together.
We saw each other in Melbourne many times.
(05:26):
And then she came to visit me inLondon and stayed with my
parents and we since then did a little road trip through Prague
in the Czech Republic. So really, really cool to see
her there. And when we were there, I said,
look, Iris, I'm going to be honest with you, love.
Be honest with you love. I never called anyone love.
I try to take on a bit of your your accent, your flavour.
I gotta be honest with you, love.
(05:47):
I'm hankering for some bones. So either we do something about
that quick shot Oris. Goodbye, Iris.
Quick Patreon section, you know,so she said, look, I, I've been
doing a bit of research. There's this place called Kutna
Ora, which is about 80 kilometres east of here.
It's only an hour in the car if you're not driving and, and it's
(06:09):
the Church of Bones, it's this ossuary and it could be really
cool dark tourism. Don't know if you're into it.
I'm not, turns out, but but you know, it is.
It's one of those things that you hear about and you see of
just while you're scouring the Internet or flicking over
Instagram or something and then you completely forget about it.
It completely leaves your mind. And then it just happened to be
(06:30):
on my doorstep. I was like, oh shit, I know, I
know this thing. Yeah, let's do it.
Let's let's go there. Yeah, OK, nice.
Have you had you ever been to anossuary before, my friend?
No, no, I I hadn't. And I'm going to be completely
honest with you. When she said it, I thought she
meant an Avery. I thought, oh, great, we're
going to go and see some birds. But it also sounds a little bit
(06:50):
like cassowaries. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I was.
You got there before me. I was going to say it sounds a
little bit like cassowary, doesn't it?
I didn't really know how to react, to be honest with you.
I'm not like a huge religion guy.
I mean, out the two of us, it's obviously you, but I thought it
could be really interesting. It's just like another step up,
isn't it going going to a reallyiconic sort of historical or
(07:13):
culturally significant church, aChapel, whatever it might be
religious monument is, you know,already quite sort of an awe
inspiring and you're walking around it kind of thinking, God,
I wish we could just go back hundreds of years to see how it
moved back then. But then when it's when it is
filled with bones. And I will go on to describe in
detail what sort of things you can experience there.
(07:33):
It's it's very surreal. It's very surreal.
So going into it, I didn't really know what to expect
coming out of it. I'd say I'll probably do it
again. Yeah, OK, well, I want to hear
about it, mate, because I've only been to the one in my life.
I've been to San Benedicto in Milan, so I know the feeling of
being confronted by all these bones, but I want to hear it in
(07:55):
your. Words.
OK, OK, well, I'll start off with the facts for you because I
know you're a you're a big factsguy.
Yeah. So, yeah.
So the the place is called Sedlet's Ossueri, I believe it's
pronounced. It's in the small town of Kutna
Ora, as I said, about an hour from Prague.
And correct me if I'm wrong, mate, but what is a Cistercian?
(08:17):
Is that sort of a monk? Someone who's belongs to an
order? A cistern show is that with AC
or an S? It's with AC.
Someone who sans that? A cistern, I imagine, but I'm
not quite sure of the origin of that.
Fair enough. So anyway, a person who was
doing that job way back in 1278 apparently came back from
Jerusalem, from the place where Christ was crucified, which is
(08:43):
called. Golgotha.
That's where he was crucified. Christ.
Golgotha. I knew you'd know that.
So apparently the Cistercian went there, collected some some
earth, and then came back to this area in Kunta Ora and
basically spread the earth over the cemetery, rendering that
burial ground sacred, which is, you know, already pretty cool.
(09:07):
And then of course, the Black Death came and there was various
wars and other things. But what it meant?
That always happens when you take earth from the sight of
Christ's crucifixion and sprinkle it to make something
sacred, and then Black Death come.
The thing was that it became, itbecame somewhere where people
wanted to be buried. So lots of people started coming
(09:28):
to the region and it became quite a popular area to sort of
live and hang around, especiallyin old age, which, you know, way
back then was probably around myage.
And Kutnora was inhabited by about 80,000 people, which made
it one of the largest cities in the world at that time.
So it's pretty cool stuff. Do you think you would like to
be buried somewhere like that? I don't know.
(09:49):
I really don't know. I would quite like my bones to
be displayed the way these ones were.
And I don't know if you can really call them buried because,
you know, I'll just go on to tell you that in, in about 15,
in about exactly 1511, the construction of the Ossory was
given to 1/2 blind monk to arrange the bones in somewhat of
(10:11):
a pyramid. So, I mean, obviously you're
dead. OK, was he half blind like he
was missing one eye or did both eyes have 50% vision?
When, when I read that, when I was doing my research, I
thought, I wonder if when I say that on the app, Alan's going to
come back with that. So I better have something
pithy. No, I think he was just one.
Just he only had one eye. He only had one eye.
(10:34):
He was half blind. Couldn't think of anything piffy
then. No, just went with the one eye
and it doesn't even say that I've just made that up for the
show. But if I was, if I was dead, if
that's the question, if I was dead, you can't choose of
course. But I wouldn't necessarily want
nothing against the half blind monk.
I wouldn't want him arranging mybones.
I don't think the person I wouldwant arranging my bones is
(10:56):
Francisek Rint, who was commissioned by the
Schwartzenberg family in 1870 tothen start arranging my bones.
And he was the person who was commissioned by them to put on
the display that we now see today.
And I tell you what mate, when you go into this church, you
walk into the church. Let me describe it to you.
You walk into the church and you're thinking this is like any
(11:16):
other church. This is the same as every other
church I've ever been in. But then you go down below
because there's a Chapel that's been buried below the ground.
Now I I'm told by the website I read about three hours ago that
Christian customs require bones,human skeletal remains, to be
buried below ground. Did you know that?
(11:37):
I didn't know that, no. How did it?
What's the workaround? Well, so they built another
Chapel below ground. So technically, even though the
bones are on display, they are still buried below surface.
OK, but I've been to an ossuary and maybe we've not explained
ossuary. Like basically the decoration of
the church, the decorations of these cathedrals is all made of
skeletal remains. It's quite remarkable to to
(11:57):
view. Yeah, there's no birds.
No, not even 1. No, but I've been to to 1 where
it was it was above ground. Oh, was he Christian?
San Benedito in Milan. Well, we'll have to do some
research after the fact and debunk the myth.
However, this one is definitely underground.
And the first thing I did, you know, being the ultimate
(12:19):
tourist, was took out my phone and started taking pictures of
the staircase. And the woman behind the
reception desk said, whoa, whoa,whoa, you can't take pictures in
there. That's really disrespectful.
Yeah, that's you. Absolute disrespectful bastard
taking pictures. Oh sorry, that wouldn't have
sounded so harsh. It's a cultural difference.
It's only the in the nuance, butin, well, I mean, I mean,
(12:44):
they're quite direct in that, inthat part of the world, aren't
they? I like it.
I like it. It's my style.
OK, so cameras away. Yes, I, I sort of, I, I looked
at so many photos on the Internet before going.
So I mean someone's taking pictures.
It's not me, but someone is. You can see them online and and
then you walk down, you pay about €10.
It gets you entry into another church nearby.
So don't complain about the price.
(13:04):
It is worth it. And you walk down these stairs
and every single where every single place you look is
basically covered with either a skull, a femur, a hand, some
sort of rib cage type decoration.
It is absolutely astonishing. I've never seen anything in in
(13:25):
my life quite like it. And I know you have it.
Just just tell me the one that you went to were there just and
how can I even describe this? I mean, had had like ornaments
and things been made, decorations been made out of the
bones themselves, like structures to sort of represent
other things? Or were they just like hanging
off a paint a, you know, paint hook?
(13:45):
Yeah, I know the walls are full of skulls and then there's like
bones and yeah, like famous crossed and latticed to make
different ornamentation. So get this right, the the most
famous, the two most famous pieces in this in this Chapel
are the chandelier, which, and it is it is a chandelier.
It's absolutely gigantic. It includes at least one of
(14:09):
every human bone in the body, which is it's pretty crazy.
And it it is a piece of art. It looks absolutely fantastic.
It's completely symmetrical and it's hanging from the ceiling.
And then the other crazy thing that you see in there is the
Schwarzenberg coat of arms. They're like family Crest has
been made out of bones and it's absolutely enormous.
(14:30):
Now, do you, do you know the origin of like, why this is a a
theme that repeats itself in Christianity across the world?
There's ossuaries. You know why people have chosen
to use bones in this manner? Is it celebrating death?
Is it something about, you know,making sure people realise when
they're alive that they still have the ability to?
(14:53):
What would the quick correct wayto say it be?
Like repent for their sins or something like that before they
then pass. Yeah.
I also think it's like it's sucha thing which we choose not to
confront in our day-to-day lives.
The concept of death, the concept of mortality is
something that we constantly like, look away from.
We bury our dead in graveyards, we cremate them.
(15:16):
And to like be confronted with such a visceral representation
of death kind of forces you to ponder your life in a slightly
different way, I think. I think that there's something
quite of the horror about an ossuary.
I remember being like, Oh my goodness.
But then something undeniably beautiful about the way they're
displayed as well, it kind of forces you to regard humanity
(15:38):
slightly differently. Everyone's got one of those
skeletons inside of them, you know?
Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting you say
that because what you touched onbasically is a feeling that I
felt when I was there, so much so that I did say it to to Iris
when we were walking around the church.
I mean, there aren't, there's only a few people in there at
any one time and no one's talking.
Everyone's just sort of with their mouth open going, Oh my
God, this is crazy. But you.
(15:59):
But the, The thing is that you'll probably find if you go
there, and I'm sure you experience this as well when
skeletons, you know, whether it be skull, rib cage or, or legs
or feet, whatever, it's, it's quite ghastly.
But if they are arranged in a way that is very decorative, you
have almost like a different relationship with what you're
looking at. And I said to Iris at the time,
(16:20):
if this was just a pile of dirtybones, it would be absolutely
awful. It would, you know, make me feel
sick to the stomach. But the fact that they have
been, you know, so, so neatly put together and arranged in a
way that looked absolutely beautiful, it was, it was just
like walking around any other room or an art gallery or
something. You don't, you don't connect
what you're seeing to that of a dead body.
(16:41):
It's really strange. Yeah.
Interesting that we've both beento Ossuaries in the last sort of
six months and that we've had similar takeaways from him.
Would you recommend Osuaries to the listening audience?
Do you think you should always check out his own hot Tripology
travel tip? Would I recommend them?
I think if you are interested inin dark tourism in any way, I
(17:02):
mean, it is, it's pretty unique to go to one of these things.
I guess maybe it's slightly contradictory that, you know,
you're not allowed to take pictures, but they are running a
business out of it. I mean, they are charging people
an entry fee to go and see thesedead bodies.
So it has become somewhat of a gimmick.
But I do think if you know the eventuality after doing this is
(17:22):
that you ponder your life and ithas sort of a positive impact on
on your outlook, then absolutelygive it a go.
OK, well let's all take an opportunity to ponder our lives
as we go on a brief meditation break.
Alan, we should make a place where fans of the show can
listen to episodes, read articles and maybe contact us.
Done it What? Topologypodcast.com.
(17:44):
Should we put a link in the description?
It's already there. You are good.
Like a bone being ornately placed inside an ossuary allow
your conscious mind to be returned into your brain.
Adam, how many bones or bodies or people's bones are there in
(18:04):
Sed Lech Ossuary in Prague? So not including the people who
are walking around alive, I'll give you a little guessing game.
Do you think there are 5000? It's already quite a lot.
I think there's less than 5000. OK, well that is your first
answer. 10,010 thousand. Oh, more than 5000.
(18:27):
Yeah, well or or wait for it Option C more than 40,000.
Yeah, I'm going to go with more than 40,000.
I've changed my tune. Yeah, more than 40,000 people's
remains are in that ossuary. So if that's your thing, I mean
that is just an extraordinary number of people, isn't it,
(18:49):
that. Gives the listener some insight
into how I get so good at tripping point.
If you wonder how did Alan suddenly realize there was more
than 40,000? There's just something in the
way Adam communicates that allows me to be good at
guessing. There you go.
It's a It's cultural. Nuance.
All right, mate. Well, you know, that's
Austuaries. A bit of a unusual thing for us
(19:11):
to tackle, but it's a story thathappened to you quite recently.
You went to an Austria. I've been to an Austria.
Sometimes we go to Austria. There is, but we're on a travel
show. We have emails from people.
People can go to tripologypodcast.com and type in
the little contact form there questions for me and you, and
someone's done just that in an item we like to go.
(19:32):
It's the hostel common room. Hostel common room?
How many countries you've been to, mate?
Alan? It's the hostel common room.
It's everyone's favorite item. And my goodness, have we got a
belter. This week we got an e-mail from
Carmen in Wales and Carmen says hey guys, I recently came across
(19:55):
the podcast via an Instagram reel and have subsequently
binged every single episode. I think you are the perfect
travel presenting duo and I've enjoyed all your travel stories
and funny mishaps. I'm also learning so much about
different places and cultures through your adventures.
Well, thanks ever so much for the kind words, Carmen.
That's lovely. Cheers, Carmen, You Beautiful
listener. I've not done any real
(20:19):
travelling at the ripe age of 42but have to say you've inspired
me to want to see more of the world.
However I'm not sure I feel brave enough.
Long term travel isn't an optionfor me right now with work,
teenage daughters and pets, but do you have any tips or ideas
for mini adventures for someone starting out, albeit a little
bit later in life, to help gain some travel confidence?
(20:39):
Bonus points for suggesting for any suggestion.
Sorry that appeal to teenagers. Oh my goodness.
Calming, calming, calming. Wow.
We've got a few things that we need to deal with there.
We've got someone who wants miniadventures.
They've got teenage daughters, they're 42 years old.
They feel like they can't go on these big, long, expansive
adventures anymore, but they still want to introduce that
(20:59):
tripological sense of wonderment.
They don't just want to go off to a resort and have a holiday
in Cancun. We want something a little bit
more interesting. Here's how I'd approach that,
Adam, if I may. I think you want to
philosophically reverse engineerwhat you want to get out of a
trip and then go from there. And you've got a few different
(21:20):
peoples and personalities to deal with there.
You've got Carmen and her teenage daughters, and you kind
of want something as well that'sgoing to bring that family unit
together. You want something that's going
to be engaging, that's going to inspire, and basically the trips
that I went on when I was a teenager that meant the most to
me were the ones where I felt like I learned something about
(21:40):
myself and became closer to my family as a result.
We went to Poland, where my mum's family is from, and I got
to learn about that culture thatbrought us closer together.
And then when I was 17, I went to the United States and stayed
with family there, and that was more of a solo trip where I got
to learn about myself. And I think that's a good
starting block. What are you interested in and
(22:02):
how is that going to manifest itself through a trip?
I do think that's a great place to start and it's something I'd
certainly encourage. Unfortunately, I wasn't as lucky
as Alan was to go on those really interesting and
meaningful sentimental trips when I was young.
The only thing I've got to draw from is my resort holidays over
in Turkey, which I'm very, very happy to have had.
However, if you are looking for something a little bit more
(22:24):
specific, something that I thinkwould be really cool is doing
sort of a point to point road trip.
So pick a point A, maybe hire a car if you've got the ability to
do that. And then you and the teenage
daughters, you can traverse through a number of countries
and cultures ending up at point B and then sort of fly out from
there. So I mean, if that's the sort of
thing you're interested in, different cultures, you've
(22:44):
mentioned you're really interested in food as well, then
I would certainly recommend that.
And somewhere I've been very recently is the Balkans.
So very, very cool region, very affordable, easy to get around
in terms of the infrastructure, but somewhere that not that many
tourists are going at the moment.
So I think that could be a really, really cool thing to
look into. And if you need any help at all
doing that, we'll keep the conversation going.
(23:06):
I'd love to keep chatting. Yeah, I mean, that's one really
easy way to introduce that tripological sense into your
adventure. Make sure it's not just a
package. Basic Holiday is doing point to
point. So you've got a sense of
sojourn, a sense of moving from one place to another place and
then choosing something outside the box, somewhere like the
Balkan, something that's going to be that interesting thing
(23:28):
that's not where everyone else has gone.
I also was thinking then one of the things that's most important
to me when I'm travelling, if I have an interest, like let's say
I'm interested in ancient civilization, I got to go to the
pyramids and felt like I could live out that interest in a
travel context if I was interested.
You're interested in languages and I feel like you're you're
happiest when you get to go to aplace that's speaking a
(23:50):
different language and immerse yourself in that culture there.
So I think if it's you and your teenage daughters, you should
look at what the key interests are and whether each person can
get something out of the trip that enlivens and deepens that
interest. I think that'd be a cool thing
to look for as you reverse engineer how to build this trip.
Yeah, and I did just want to take the time to say as well, I
(24:12):
do think it's such a beautiful thing.
I know you've mentioned Carmen, that you're 42 years old and
thinking about embarking on this, this lovely trip to sort
of inspire your, your daughters as well to travel the world as
well as yourself. And you've certainly got nothing
to worry about. I think you're all going to have
an amazing time. Hopefully it sparks that
wanderlust in you and your daughters.
And I just think it's incrediblething that you're doing because
(24:33):
I, as a son myself with a motherI would have loved to have
travelled with. It's just will be an amazing
experience and truly appreciatedI'm sure.
Yeah, travelling with kids is something I do want to talk more
about in the future because I think it's becoming increasingly
popular. I think it's a really
interesting niche. I think it's something that
obviously is like has its challenges and and you can
(24:55):
travel with your children of allages.
We met a couple in Pakistan who were travelling with three very
young daughters and they were talking about the trials and
tribulations of that, but also what it brings to their
daughters in terms of enriching their cultural understanding
experience. So we'll talk about it more.
Carmen, I hope you have an amazing adventure.
I hope you carve out the perfectadventure.
(25:16):
Yeah. And thanks again for for
emailing in. We will of course send you an
e-mail back in any case. And please guys, if you are
interested in asking us questions at all, do get those
emails in. We'll read them out on the show.
Yeah, tripologypodcast.com Fill out the hostel common room form.
You can also follow our adventures on Instagram at
Tripology Podcast. Yeah, and we're going to go off
to the Lost and Found section now, where, Alan, I'm going to
(25:37):
tell you a funny story. My memory's just been twigged
about me getting a bus in the Balkans.
My goodness, looking forward to hearing that.
It comes out 24 hours early overat patreon.com/tripology Podcast
I tomorrow I'm getting on a plane.
I'm flying all the way to Shanghai and then to the
Philippines. It's going to be ever such an
adventure that we'll talk about next week.
But right now, let's go to the Patreon section.
(25:57):
We'll see you there. We'll see you there.
Bye. None.
I went to the Church of Boneless.
To play the theme music. Hello, welcome to this episode
of Tribology. I'm Alan and I'm here with the
(00:21):
ever ossified Adam. Turning into bone mate One
interesting fact about me is that I have never ever broken a
bone in my body. Neither have I apart from the
old schnoz. All the bones I was supposed to
breakthrough childhood like oh you've broken your collarbone,
you've broken your arm, all concentrated down.
I just broke my nose like 5 times instead.
(00:42):
Surely breaking your nose countsas breaking a bone in your body
though, right? Well, I don't know, because
there's a lot of cartilage in there and I'm not sure exactly
what broke. I just know that it broke, you
know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.
Well, were you a bit of a adrenaline junkie when you were
younger? Yeah.
I mean, you are now. We've done some things that I
would never do. I.
Used to run nose first into everything.
That was how I got my kicks backin the day.
Although the kids were bouncing on trampolines and dirt biking,
(01:04):
I was just doing the old Run with Your Nose game and that
resulted in some pretty unusual breakages.
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's probably quite strange for
someone of my age, you know, theripe old age of 35, having lived
around the world, done a whole host of things, travelling and
all these travel activities thatwe get involved in regarding
motorbikes and bungee jumps. I haven't done a bungee jump but
(01:27):
but yeah, I mean, not broken a bone.
I think of have I been Molly coddled?
I've definitely muddy Molly coddled you a little bit.
When we've been travelling together.
I feel like I basically go around.
When we were on Patunda's Glacier, I was just trying to
get behind you and make sure youwouldn't fall, make sure you
wouldn't slip. So I can only assume other
people have done similar things whilst they've been travelling
with you. Actually you make a good point
(01:50):
on that glacier. Passive glacier at Patunda's.
Maybe it's easy for you to understand why I haven't ever
broken a bone on my body. Because it took me, I don't know
about what, 45 minutes to get over that tiny little Ridge.
And I was taking taking my sweettime and taking my sweet care.
Very careful, aren't you? Have you ever seen one of your
bones? Because I have.
You know, I've had the glory of seeing one of my own bones in
(02:12):
the flesh when I Or out of the flesh, as the case may be.
When I was on that motorcycle crash in Vietnam, my forearm
bone had the decency to emerge to the world.
It just showed itself, unbroken but unsurrounded by skin.
Well, I mean, hopefully no one'seating their dinner while
they're listening to this, but it's interesting you mention
(02:33):
that because I would quite like to talk to you about me seeing a
hell of a lot of bones, althoughthere was no flesh.
I wonder why we embarked on thisbone chat?
Because it's not like every episode of Topology we start
with a different part of the human body.
Today we're talking about bones.So why are we speaking so much
about ossification? Bones, that skeletal structure
(02:54):
which prevents you from being just a a big mucosal flab of
skin. We're we're rebranding as
biology. No, it's so as you know, mate,
I'm here in New Zealand. I've been here for a couple of
months now, but there was a hugechunk of my trip through Europe
that we've missed and I've done a load of things that we didn't
have time to talk about. So now we're just going to
(03:15):
backtrack a little bit and talk about one of my experiences in
the Czech Republic, where I visited the very famous Church
of Bones. And what do you say to your
detractors that say the reason we're not talking about New
Zealand and we are backtracking is because fuck all has happened
to either of us in the last two weeks as we're frantically
searching for jobs and planning out our future adventures?
(03:37):
I mean, yeah, just to just to make sure that it doesn't become
just a weekly catch up about me and you online hunting for jobs
or booking flights. Welcome to Tripology.
Oh, I'd basically be doing a jobapplication.
I've been booking a flight. Bye.
Yeah, we've saved people a lot of time, wouldn't it?
Oh, this week I had a job interview.
I didn't get that job either. So I mean there is obviously
(04:01):
interesting stuff that's happened and sometimes when
things happen in quick succession, I mean what we're
going to do, we're going to release an episode every day.
Of course not. We need to bank that sort of
stuff and then release it two months down the line.
OK, well, I'm happy to backtrackbecause God knows that the
future episodes coming up are going to be really crazy.
I am flying tomorrow to Asia. I'm flying to the Philippines.
So there's crazy stuff in the future.
(04:23):
But let's go in reverse and hearabout your bone adventures,
baby. So as a man of many interests,
Bones being one of them, I always say that.
Bones being all of them. How many bones are in the human
body? Do you know that?
200 and something. OK, and maybe that wouldn't win
US the prize money, but you do know, Alan, that you are the one
(04:44):
person that I would want at the other end of the phone if I had
What's that guy who wants to be a millionaire?
I mean, you would be the person I called in almost every
situation. So phone.
A friend, yeah. You phone a friend, phone a
friend. I wish that you were there for
this one because I think you'd find it really interesting.
Now, I didn't know anything about it, not doing any
research. However, I was in Prague, the
lovely city of Prague, and having a wonderful time with my
(05:06):
dear friend Iris, who is a lady from the Netherlands, and we met
back in 2015 in Malaysia. We travelled some of Malaysia
together. It was awesome actually, thanks
to her that I did my advanced diving in Malaysia through her
sort of support and encouragement.
And then we moved to Melbourne together.
We saw each other in Melbourne many times.
(05:26):
And then she came to visit me inLondon and stayed with my
parents and we since then did a little road trip through Prague
in the Czech Republic. So really, really cool to see
her there. And when we were there, I said,
look, Iris, I'm going to be honest with you, love.
Be honest with you love. I never called anyone love.
I try to take on a bit of your your accent, your flavour.
I gotta be honest with you, love.
(05:47):
I'm hankering for some bones. So either we do something about
that quick shot Oris. Goodbye, Iris.
Quick Patreon section, you know,so she said, look, I, I've been
doing a bit of research. There's this place called Kutna
Ora, which is about 80 kilometres east of here.
It's only an hour in the car if you're not driving and, and it's
(06:09):
the Church of Bones, it's this ossuary and it could be really
cool dark tourism. Don't know if you're into it.
I'm not, turns out, but but you know, it is.
It's one of those things that you hear about and you see of
just while you're scouring the Internet or flicking over
Instagram or something and then you completely forget about it.
It completely leaves your mind. And then it just happened to be
(06:30):
on my doorstep. I was like, oh shit, I know, I
know this thing. Yeah, let's do it.
Let's let's go there. Yeah, OK, nice.
Have you had you ever been to anossuary before, my friend?
No, no, I I hadn't. And I'm going to be completely
honest with you. When she said it, I thought she
meant an Avery. I thought, oh, great, we're
going to go and see some birds. But it also sounds a little bit
(06:50):
like cassowaries. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I was.
You got there before me. I was going to say it sounds a
little bit like cassowary, doesn't it?
I didn't really know how to react, to be honest with you.
I'm not like a huge religion guy.
I mean, out the two of us, it's obviously you, but I thought it
could be really interesting. It's just like another step up,
isn't it going going to a reallyiconic sort of historical or
(07:13):
culturally significant church, aChapel, whatever it might be
religious monument is, you know,already quite sort of an awe
inspiring and you're walking around it kind of thinking, God,
I wish we could just go back hundreds of years to see how it
moved back then. But then when it's when it is
filled with bones. And I will go on to describe in
detail what sort of things you can experience there.
(07:33):
It's it's very surreal. It's very surreal.
So going into it, I didn't really know what to expect
coming out of it. I'd say I'll probably do it
again. Yeah, OK, well, I want to hear
about it, mate, because I've only been to the one in my life.
I've been to San Benedicto in Milan, so I know the feeling of
being confronted by all these bones, but I want to hear it in
(07:55):
your. Words.
OK, OK, well, I'll start off with the facts for you because I
know you're a you're a big factsguy.
Yeah. So, yeah.
So the the place is called Sedlet's Ossueri, I believe it's
pronounced. It's in the small town of Kutna
Ora, as I said, about an hour from Prague.
And correct me if I'm wrong, mate, but what is a Cistercian?
(08:17):
Is that sort of a monk? Someone who's belongs to an
order? A cistern show is that with AC
or an S? It's with AC.
Someone who sans that? A cistern, I imagine, but I'm
not quite sure of the origin of that.
Fair enough. So anyway, a person who was
doing that job way back in 1278 apparently came back from
Jerusalem, from the place where Christ was crucified, which is
(08:43):
called. Golgotha.
That's where he was crucified. Christ.
Golgotha. I knew you'd know that.
So apparently the Cistercian went there, collected some some
earth, and then came back to this area in Kunta Ora and
basically spread the earth over the cemetery, rendering that
burial ground sacred, which is, you know, already pretty cool.
(09:07):
And then of course, the Black Death came and there was various
wars and other things. But what it meant?
That always happens when you take earth from the sight of
Christ's crucifixion and sprinkle it to make something
sacred, and then Black Death come.
The thing was that it became, itbecame somewhere where people
wanted to be buried. So lots of people started coming
(09:28):
to the region and it became quite a popular area to sort of
live and hang around, especiallyin old age, which, you know, way
back then was probably around myage.
And Kutnora was inhabited by about 80,000 people, which made
it one of the largest cities in the world at that time.
So it's pretty cool stuff. Do you think you would like to
be buried somewhere like that? I don't know.
(09:49):
I really don't know. I would quite like my bones to
be displayed the way these ones were.
And I don't know if you can really call them buried because,
you know, I'll just go on to tell you that in, in about 15,
in about exactly 1511, the construction of the Ossory was
given to 1/2 blind monk to arrange the bones in somewhat of
(10:11):
a pyramid. So, I mean, obviously you're
dead. OK, was he half blind like he
was missing one eye or did both eyes have 50% vision?
When, when I read that, when I was doing my research, I
thought, I wonder if when I say that on the app, Alan's going to
come back with that. So I better have something
pithy. No, I think he was just one.
Just he only had one eye. He only had one eye.
(10:34):
He was half blind. Couldn't think of anything piffy
then. No, just went with the one eye
and it doesn't even say that I've just made that up for the
show. But if I was, if I was dead, if
that's the question, if I was dead, you can't choose of
course. But I wouldn't necessarily want
nothing against the half blind monk.
I wouldn't want him arranging mybones.
I don't think the person I wouldwant arranging my bones is
(10:56):
Francisek Rint, who was commissioned by the
Schwartzenberg family in 1870 tothen start arranging my bones.
And he was the person who was commissioned by them to put on
the display that we now see today.
And I tell you what mate, when you go into this church, you
walk into the church. Let me describe it to you.
You walk into the church and you're thinking this is like any
(11:16):
other church. This is the same as every other
church I've ever been in. But then you go down below
because there's a Chapel that's been buried below the ground.
Now I I'm told by the website I read about three hours ago that
Christian customs require bones,human skeletal remains, to be
buried below ground. Did you know that?
(11:37):
I didn't know that, no. How did it?
What's the workaround? Well, so they built another
Chapel below ground. So technically, even though the
bones are on display, they are still buried below surface.
OK, but I've been to an ossuary and maybe we've not explained
ossuary. Like basically the decoration of
the church, the decorations of these cathedrals is all made of
skeletal remains. It's quite remarkable to to
(11:57):
view. Yeah, there's no birds.
No, not even 1. No, but I've been to to 1 where
it was it was above ground. Oh, was he Christian?
San Benedito in Milan. Well, we'll have to do some
research after the fact and debunk the myth.
However, this one is definitely underground.
And the first thing I did, you know, being the ultimate
(12:19):
tourist, was took out my phone and started taking pictures of
the staircase. And the woman behind the
reception desk said, whoa, whoa,whoa, you can't take pictures in
there. That's really disrespectful.
Yeah, that's you. Absolute disrespectful bastard
taking pictures. Oh sorry, that wouldn't have
sounded so harsh. It's a cultural difference.
It's only the in the nuance, butin, well, I mean, I mean,
(12:44):
they're quite direct in that, inthat part of the world, aren't
they? I like it.
I like it. It's my style.
OK, so cameras away. Yes, I, I sort of, I, I looked
at so many photos on the Internet before going.
So I mean someone's taking pictures.
It's not me, but someone is. You can see them online and and
then you walk down, you pay about €10.
It gets you entry into another church nearby.
So don't complain about the price.
(13:04):
It is worth it. And you walk down these stairs
and every single where every single place you look is
basically covered with either a skull, a femur, a hand, some
sort of rib cage type decoration.
It is absolutely astonishing. I've never seen anything in in
(13:25):
my life quite like it. And I know you have it.
Just just tell me the one that you went to were there just and
how can I even describe this? I mean, had had like ornaments
and things been made, decorations been made out of the
bones themselves, like structures to sort of represent
other things? Or were they just like hanging
off a paint a, you know, paint hook?
(13:45):
Yeah, I know the walls are full of skulls and then there's like
bones and yeah, like famous crossed and latticed to make
different ornamentation. So get this right, the the most
famous, the two most famous pieces in this in this Chapel
are the chandelier, which, and it is it is a chandelier.
It's absolutely gigantic. It includes at least one of
(14:09):
every human bone in the body, which is it's pretty crazy.
And it it is a piece of art. It looks absolutely fantastic.
It's completely symmetrical and it's hanging from the ceiling.
And then the other crazy thing that you see in there is the
Schwarzenberg coat of arms. They're like family Crest has
been made out of bones and it's absolutely enormous.
(14:30):
Now, do you, do you know the origin of like, why this is a a
theme that repeats itself in Christianity across the world?
There's ossuaries. You know why people have chosen
to use bones in this manner? Is it celebrating death?
Is it something about, you know,making sure people realise when
they're alive that they still have the ability to?
(14:53):
What would the quick correct wayto say it be?
Like repent for their sins or something like that before they
then pass. Yeah.
I also think it's like it's sucha thing which we choose not to
confront in our day-to-day lives.
The concept of death, the concept of mortality is
something that we constantly like, look away from.
We bury our dead in graveyards, we cremate them.
(15:16):
And to like be confronted with such a visceral representation
of death kind of forces you to ponder your life in a slightly
different way, I think. I think that there's something
quite of the horror about an ossuary.
I remember being like, Oh my goodness.
But then something undeniably beautiful about the way they're
displayed as well, it kind of forces you to regard humanity
(15:38):
slightly differently. Everyone's got one of those
skeletons inside of them, you know?
Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting you say
that because what you touched onbasically is a feeling that I
felt when I was there, so much so that I did say it to to Iris
when we were walking around the church.
I mean, there aren't, there's only a few people in there at
any one time and no one's talking.
Everyone's just sort of with their mouth open going, Oh my
God, this is crazy. But you.
(15:59):
But the, The thing is that you'll probably find if you go
there, and I'm sure you experience this as well when
skeletons, you know, whether it be skull, rib cage or, or legs
or feet, whatever, it's, it's quite ghastly.
But if they are arranged in a way that is very decorative, you
have almost like a different relationship with what you're
looking at. And I said to Iris at the time,
(16:20):
if this was just a pile of dirtybones, it would be absolutely
awful. It would, you know, make me feel
sick to the stomach. But the fact that they have
been, you know, so, so neatly put together and arranged in a
way that looked absolutely beautiful, it was, it was just
like walking around any other room or an art gallery or
something. You don't, you don't connect
what you're seeing to that of a dead body.
(16:41):
It's really strange. Yeah.
Interesting that we've both beento Ossuaries in the last sort of
six months and that we've had similar takeaways from him.
Would you recommend Osuaries to the listening audience?
Do you think you should always check out his own hot Tripology
travel tip? Would I recommend them?
I think if you are interested inin dark tourism in any way, I
(17:02):
mean, it is, it's pretty unique to go to one of these things.
I guess maybe it's slightly contradictory that, you know,
you're not allowed to take pictures, but they are running a
business out of it. I mean, they are charging people
an entry fee to go and see thesedead bodies.
So it has become somewhat of a gimmick.
But I do think if you know the eventuality after doing this is
(17:22):
that you ponder your life and ithas sort of a positive impact on
on your outlook, then absolutelygive it a go.
OK, well let's all take an opportunity to ponder our lives
as we go on a brief meditation break.
Alan, we should make a place where fans of the show can
listen to episodes, read articles and maybe contact us.
Done it What? Topologypodcast.com.
(17:44):
Should we put a link in the description?
It's already there. You are good.
Like a bone being ornately placed inside an ossuary allow
your conscious mind to be returned into your brain.
Adam, how many bones or bodies or people's bones are there in
(18:04):
Sed Lech Ossuary in Prague? So not including the people who
are walking around alive, I'll give you a little guessing game.
Do you think there are 5000? It's already quite a lot.
I think there's less than 5000. OK, well that is your first
answer. 10,010 thousand. Oh, more than 5000.
(18:27):
Yeah, well or or wait for it Option C more than 40,000.
Yeah, I'm going to go with more than 40,000.
I've changed my tune. Yeah, more than 40,000 people's
remains are in that ossuary. So if that's your thing, I mean
that is just an extraordinary number of people, isn't it,
(18:49):
that. Gives the listener some insight
into how I get so good at tripping point.
If you wonder how did Alan suddenly realize there was more
than 40,000? There's just something in the
way Adam communicates that allows me to be good at
guessing. There you go.
It's a It's cultural. Nuance.
All right, mate. Well, you know, that's
Austuaries. A bit of a unusual thing for us
(19:11):
to tackle, but it's a story thathappened to you quite recently.
You went to an Austria. I've been to an Austria.
Sometimes we go to Austria. There is, but we're on a travel
show. We have emails from people.
People can go to tripologypodcast.com and type in
the little contact form there questions for me and you, and
someone's done just that in an item we like to go.
(19:32):
It's the hostel common room. Hostel common room?
How many countries you've been to, mate?
Alan? It's the hostel common room.
It's everyone's favorite item. And my goodness, have we got a
belter. This week we got an e-mail from
Carmen in Wales and Carmen says hey guys, I recently came across
(19:55):
the podcast via an Instagram reel and have subsequently
binged every single episode. I think you are the perfect
travel presenting duo and I've enjoyed all your travel stories
and funny mishaps. I'm also learning so much about
different places and cultures through your adventures.
Well, thanks ever so much for the kind words, Carmen.
That's lovely. Cheers, Carmen, You Beautiful
listener. I've not done any real
(20:19):
travelling at the ripe age of 42but have to say you've inspired
me to want to see more of the world.
However I'm not sure I feel brave enough.
Long term travel isn't an optionfor me right now with work,
teenage daughters and pets, but do you have any tips or ideas
for mini adventures for someone starting out, albeit a little
bit later in life, to help gain some travel confidence?
(20:39):
Bonus points for suggesting for any suggestion.
Sorry that appeal to teenagers. Oh my goodness.
Calming, calming, calming. Wow.
We've got a few things that we need to deal with there.
We've got someone who wants miniadventures.
They've got teenage daughters, they're 42 years old.
They feel like they can't go on these big, long, expansive
adventures anymore, but they still want to introduce that
(20:59):
tripological sense of wonderment.
They don't just want to go off to a resort and have a holiday
in Cancun. We want something a little bit
more interesting. Here's how I'd approach that,
Adam, if I may. I think you want to
philosophically reverse engineerwhat you want to get out of a
trip and then go from there. And you've got a few different
(21:20):
peoples and personalities to deal with there.
You've got Carmen and her teenage daughters, and you kind
of want something as well that'sgoing to bring that family unit
together. You want something that's going
to be engaging, that's going to inspire, and basically the trips
that I went on when I was a teenager that meant the most to
me were the ones where I felt like I learned something about
(21:40):
myself and became closer to my family as a result.
We went to Poland, where my mum's family is from, and I got
to learn about that culture thatbrought us closer together.
And then when I was 17, I went to the United States and stayed
with family there, and that was more of a solo trip where I got
to learn about myself. And I think that's a good
starting block. What are you interested in and
(22:02):
how is that going to manifest itself through a trip?
I do think that's a great place to start and it's something I'd
certainly encourage. Unfortunately, I wasn't as lucky
as Alan was to go on those really interesting and
meaningful sentimental trips when I was young.
The only thing I've got to draw from is my resort holidays over
in Turkey, which I'm very, very happy to have had.
However, if you are looking for something a little bit more
(22:24):
specific, something that I thinkwould be really cool is doing
sort of a point to point road trip.
So pick a point A, maybe hire a car if you've got the ability to
do that. And then you and the teenage
daughters, you can traverse through a number of countries
and cultures ending up at point B and then sort of fly out from
there. So I mean, if that's the sort of
thing you're interested in, different cultures, you've
(22:44):
mentioned you're really interested in food as well, then
I would certainly recommend that.
And somewhere I've been very recently is the Balkans.
So very, very cool region, very affordable, easy to get around
in terms of the infrastructure, but somewhere that not that many
tourists are going at the moment.
So I think that could be a really, really cool thing to
look into. And if you need any help at all
doing that, we'll keep the conversation going.
(23:06):
I'd love to keep chatting. Yeah, I mean, that's one really
easy way to introduce that tripological sense into your
adventure. Make sure it's not just a
package. Basic Holiday is doing point to
point. So you've got a sense of
sojourn, a sense of moving from one place to another place and
then choosing something outside the box, somewhere like the
Balkan, something that's going to be that interesting thing
(23:28):
that's not where everyone else has gone.
I also was thinking then one of the things that's most important
to me when I'm travelling, if I have an interest, like let's say
I'm interested in ancient civilization, I got to go to the
pyramids and felt like I could live out that interest in a
travel context if I was interested.
You're interested in languages and I feel like you're you're
happiest when you get to go to aplace that's speaking a
(23:50):
different language and immerse yourself in that culture there.
So I think if it's you and your teenage daughters, you should
look at what the key interests are and whether each person can
get something out of the trip that enlivens and deepens that
interest. I think that'd be a cool thing
to look for as you reverse engineer how to build this trip.
Yeah, and I did just want to take the time to say as well, I
(24:12):
do think it's such a beautiful thing.
I know you've mentioned Carmen, that you're 42 years old and
thinking about embarking on this, this lovely trip to sort
of inspire your, your daughters as well to travel the world as
well as yourself. And you've certainly got nothing
to worry about. I think you're all going to have
an amazing time. Hopefully it sparks that
wanderlust in you and your daughters.
And I just think it's incrediblething that you're doing because
(24:33):
I, as a son myself with a motherI would have loved to have
travelled with. It's just will be an amazing
experience and truly appreciatedI'm sure.
Yeah, travelling with kids is something I do want to talk more
about in the future because I think it's becoming increasingly
popular. I think it's a really
interesting niche. I think it's something that
obviously is like has its challenges and and you can
(24:55):
travel with your children of allages.
We met a couple in Pakistan who were travelling with three very
young daughters and they were talking about the trials and
tribulations of that, but also what it brings to their
daughters in terms of enriching their cultural understanding
experience. So we'll talk about it more.
Carmen, I hope you have an amazing adventure.
I hope you carve out the perfectadventure.
(25:16):
Yeah. And thanks again for for
emailing in. We will of course send you an
e-mail back in any case. And please guys, if you are
interested in asking us questions at all, do get those
emails in. We'll read them out on the show.
Yeah, tripologypodcast.com Fill out the hostel common room form.
You can also follow our adventures on Instagram at
Tripology Podcast. Yeah, and we're going to go off
to the Lost and Found section now, where, Alan, I'm going to
(25:37):
tell you a funny story. My memory's just been twigged
about me getting a bus in the Balkans.
My goodness, looking forward to hearing that.
It comes out 24 hours early overat patreon.com/tripology Podcast
I tomorrow I'm getting on a plane.
I'm flying all the way to Shanghai and then to the
Philippines. It's going to be ever such an
adventure that we'll talk about next week.
But right now, let's go to the Patreon section.
(25:57):
We'll see you there. We'll see you there.
Bye. None.
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