August 5, 2025 • 56 mins
S3 E26 - Tania Henderson -Fear Screams, Wisdom Whispers - Tania is a Licensed Psychotherapist in the Denver area and specializes in trauma therapy through many modalities including EMDR, Psychedelic Therapy, and embraces a playful approach to parts work and Gestalt Therapy. Listen in to this conversation that may help you along your path to peace and listening to your own inner wisdom.
Connect with Nancy Norton: https://www.nancynorton.tv/
Connect with Tania Henderson: https://sbscounseling.com/
Learn about the I/thou relationship:
Parts work:
Gestalt Therapy:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapy-types/gestalt-therapy
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
You're listening to Trauma D, the podcast that helps you take
your pain and play with it. I'm Nancy Norton, I'm a
comedian. I'm a former nurse.
I'm a keynote speaker about the power of humor, the many, many
benefits of humor, why we need it, how it helps us in all kinds
of ways. I will be out there delivering
that keynote this month in Chicago at Chicago General
(00:28):
Hospital. That sounds like, I don't know,
it sounds like a cartoon hospital, Chicago General
Hospital. We have a great guest this week.
She is a therapist. I met her from doing a corporate
gig here in Denver at a beautiful law firm.
One of her clients was like, youneed to meet my therapist, Tanya
Henderson. But what I've, I've discovered
(00:49):
in this is that there's also a really deep, deep wisdom that I
feel like it's timeless. And so as I've done that work,
I've now learned another deeper layer of I'll be sitting with a
client and I'll just take a moment.
And because I know that like fear screams, but wisdom
whispers. So if I take that moment and
(01:12):
say, what's here, I get messagesthat I couldn't explain.
But all of a sudden it's like I'll ask a question or I'll say,
could we try this? And it was just right.
So it that's what I hope for people as well, is that they can
find their own inner wisdom. This guest embraces A playful
(01:32):
approach to therapy. She has a little plaque that
says employee of the month, and it's always her.
And she has a staff of stuffies and is a fan of comedy.
Used to be on the board at the Bug Theatre.
Speaking of the Bug Theatre, that's another place.
There's a show coming up called Headstrong with a bunch of
scientists, brilliant scientists, women, and then a
(01:56):
bunch of female comedians pairing up, all for the good
cause of research in Women's Health because there's not
enough of it. And now, especially in these
times with this administration, research is at risk.
What else do you want to know? Oh, yeah, if you want to come to
one of my shows and Oh yeah, I'mgoing to be up in Alaska, the
(02:16):
Alaska World Arts Festival in Homer, AK, and then doing a Moms
Unhinged in Anchorage. That's towards the end of
September. Oh, there's a bunch of other
shows. You want to know about a show,
please go to my website, nancynorton.tv.
That's nancynorton.tv. Like television and spread the
word about traumedy. Traumedy is not a replacement
(02:37):
for trauma therapy, but it does help you get by between
sessions. If you know somebody who's
feeling isolated with their trauma or needs to know they're
not alone or maybe just needs a laugh, please share this with
them. All right, that's enough for me
for now. I'll see you on the other side.
Enjoy this episode. Welcome to Trauma D.
(03:00):
My guest this week is a psychotherapist.
Please welcome Tonya Henderson, everybody.
Woo and I, I have AI, always have.
I always do this. I have a the angels love the
clap. And that's what I think.
Thank you for coming to Boulder today.
Oh. My pleasure.
And and for responding to whatever it was in our mutual
(03:22):
friend, who probably remains anonymous because maybe a client
of yours. I'm not sure.
I think she indicated that to me.
But when I met her, she's like, oh, you need to meet Tonya
Henderson. That's what she.
Said That's so sweet of her. That's so sweet.
Well, she knows my mission statement is to help heal myself
and others. And then maybe because she also
(03:42):
knew that you were involved withcomedy like you were on the
board of the Bug Theater in Denver.
It could be, but I also know that I have a style of therapy
where I play. Folks.
That's what it is. So I have a style of therapy
that truly like we, we do experiments and we, I have a
(04:04):
whole wall of stuffed animals tohelp represent what you might be
feeling on the inside and can relate to those, those different
parts. Yes, you know, I have one that
is a a cat I call Nibs and it itlooks insane.
The eyes are like this. Oh yeah, like frantic hair and
one of one of folks favorites because it can represent like
(04:26):
that inner turmoil. Oh my gosh stuffies.
I have worked with stuffies personally.
Like even I had an ex-girlfriendone time who she would talk to
me through the stuff. He's like a puppet.
Oh, that's delightful. Yeah, she would.
We would. We'd be sitting there and she
would have it in front of us going well.
And then she she was really good, like puppeteer too.
She would make it look at me andher and she goes wait, but she's
(04:49):
worried. And then she would.
So she would talk in third person like that.
And I think it really gave her permission to share some of her
tender feelings through a bit ofa buffer.
And it really opened my heart too, to where not I wasn't as
defensive. I could hear it.
Do you use it with individuals and couples or?
I, I work with individuals. So a, a way that I might use it
(05:12):
is, is to have often times there's more than one active.
So, you know, if, if there's an inner conflict, like let's see
if I can give you an example. Part of me wants to go to the
party tonight, part of me doesn't.
And so these, these different, you know, stuffed animals or
pillows or whatever we choose todo can give voice to the
experience. And what I tried to do is get it
(05:34):
clean so that because inside it's churning all the time and
we're not able to really pinpoint like, what's the need?
What's, what's the voice here? And so these, those, these
little fuzzy representations canbe like, Oh, this feels like my
pleaser just wants to keep everybody happy.
Or this one is I'm I'm a chameleon or I'm full of of rage
(06:01):
here or what? Whatever the emotion.
Might be. I love it, I love it.
So this also helps them hold it tenderly.
Yeah, and have that just a little bit of distance with it.
Yes, I have a stuffy actually, it's hidden under this this
scarf and it has you know, I've mentioned I have the misaligned
eyes, which is a trauma and I dobelieve from a trauma in
(06:23):
infancy. And my frog, my frog has
misaligned eyes. Oh, that's.
So delightful. Yeah, and my therapist gave it
to me a while back when I was doing brain spotting therapy.
And I had a little frog when I first had eye surgery when I was
6. And they put patches on my eyes.
And then they put these things on my arms that they that I
(06:44):
couldn't touch my head, like a little elbow lock.
And then it was one of the most tender memories with my mom that
she would loosen the she was a nurse, too, and she was a rule
follower. But she loosened my little arm
splints and let me hug my froggy.
It was a. Tender memory.
And so then Froggy became my emotional support.
(07:05):
Stuffy, yeah. Who you could literally hold by
your heart. Yeah, yeah.
And I have a couple stuffies on my bed that are represent my
inner child and my inner child'splay, you know, playmate.
So this is wonderful that you, I, I, I don't know if you're
comfortable or even if, if it would make sense.
I was picturing, I would love tosee a picture of your stuffy
(07:26):
collection. Is it up on a wall or is it in a
net? Is it in a?
Is it all over the room? They're they live in lots of
places. So I have a family of otters to
do like parts, right? I have a whole bookshelf full of
them. Oh, I have a dammit doll.
(07:47):
I have. Tell me about Dammit Doll.
Well, let me finish with the other ones.
OK. And then we'll come back.
So it's like I'm just trying to think of some.
So I do. I have a chameleon, I have nibs.
The cat I have an angry bird is one of them.
I have this little Prairie dog that has a necklace around her
for perfection. I have little possum for the
(08:10):
freeze response people shut downand I have little bunnies to
represent like the the wounded places.
So yeah, just a myriad of different.
Do they come to you? Do people bring stuffies or do
you just find them out in the world like that?
Stuffy needs to be. I would say both.
So nibs came to my life when I was going to the chocolate
(08:32):
therapist. It's done in Littleton.
Super great place. And he was in a gaming store
just looking out at me and I'm like, Oh my, you, you must live
with me. You must be one with me.
It's always oh, it's just so pure, perfect.
So Nibs is those chocolate little pieces.
That's why Nibs has that name. But other ones usually come
(08:56):
from, I'm trying to do work withpeople on these different parts.
And it's like, I don't have a representation for that.
Yeah. So my my recent addition is a
bat. And people love to highlight
like, you know, wrapping themselves up to shield
themselves from the world, right?
Like a bat hanging with its wings around itself.
(09:17):
Yes, or feeling misunderstood, right, because bats are so
misunderstood. So yeah, I what I love about
stuffed animals is that they allow people to project onto
them what they need them to be. So I don't have to tell people
what's true for them. They get to show me what's true
for them. And it really liberates that
part to speak. Yes.
(09:38):
That's amazing. And I, I'm doing some IFS work,
some inner family systems work. I was going to tell you about a
part. I have an inner teenager.
Her name is Virginia Vengeance. Oh, I love that she takes the
knives out of her back and like,come on.
Yeah, she's never want to fight,but she's down for one.
She's very ragey. She's very intuitive.
(10:01):
She knows what's up. She can spot a sociopath, and
she likes to call them out in public.
And I didn't listen to her for awhile, and she's really, really,
really mad at me for not listening to her in some of my
relationships where I let you know she protects in her, in her
baby. She's a tired babysitting now,
so I'm trying to give her a break.
But I was thinking about damn it, doll, I don't know.
(10:22):
Do you think she'd be a cousin to Virginia Vengeance?
I think Virginia Vengeance needsa damn it doll.
OK right, Because damn it dolls are are intended to allow
expression of your emotions. So I had one client who took
who, who borrowed my damn it doll and ended up hitting this
(10:42):
on on a staircase and beheaded the thing.
And I thought that is what they're for, right?
It's safe, but it's big, right? And that's for big feelings and.
And it needed to happen. There's you're safe, there's no
damage, there's no. Except to the damn it doll.
Except to the damn it doll, which I delight that we can just
(11:04):
sew that head right back on. And.
It's her purpose and she acceptsher purpose.
She's like, I'm happy to help you.
I'm like a starfish that grows another arm.
There you go put in maybe get a damn a doll with a couple heads.
2 had a damn a doll. That's great.
So it's a place like, 'cause we get so much shame or I let me
(11:25):
just do I statements. I feel ashamed and I have been
shamed for having anger, like it's just an unacceptable
emotion in a lot of cultures andespecially for me.
I'm going to say why I want to say for females in our culture,
it's just, you know, my mother would not you.
You weren't allowed to even you weren't allowed to talk back to
(11:48):
her. You weren't allowed to.
Oh, that was pretty much it. And.
There you go. Yes, I think that's so true.
In fact, I think that's one of the emotions that people have
dissociated the most. And it's either a form of
protection. So we're then out in the world
without one of our most effective protections, or it's a
(12:10):
lament, right? Like I'm like, why does this
have to be this way? Why can't you hear me?
Or what? The right, whatever.
So if we disown that, then there's so much of our
experience we don't get to hold and have room for.
This is my experience with my mother, who wasn't allowing
(12:31):
herself to have her anger. I had to have it for her, but
then I get in trouble for it. Do you know?
I've had a lot of partners whereI've learned, like, I think I
was having their feelings for them.
And I mean, I got to own my own feelings too, but it's like,
that's some crazy making stuff right there.
Like if we have our own feelings, it's so helpful to
(12:53):
people around us. Like I wish we would embrace
that more. Like with GAIL, my ex who and I
don't remember her using anger as much, but it was it was
mainly like little shy part of her that wanted to ask for
something but wasn't allowed to.Yeah, sure.
Anyway that is this a this type of therapy?
You were saying you do gestalt? Is this part of gestalt?
(13:13):
Well, it's my flavor of gestalt.Yeah, because.
Because we all. You're licensed to do it.
And I'm certified in it. No, but I mean Gestalt the the
one of the big pieces is it believes in our inherent health
and our our desire to be whole and that through, you know,
exploration, trying new things, that the goal is to eventually
(13:35):
find that place of peace and wholeness.
So you can't get much yummier than that.
And so we were talking about parts before IFS was here.
In fact, Richard Schwartz even comments on, you know, his work
with gestalt. OK.
Before kind of coming up with. So that's sort of what informed
the IFS or was part. Of it, I would say, I also
(13:58):
think, you know, if you're a therapist long enough, you see
parts. It just yeah, I could see this
from the even before I started grad school.
So but yeah, but parts is part of it.
No pun intended. No pun or or is pun intended.
Exactly. But you know, the work can be
subtle. Like one of the things I see
with trauma folks is they don't savor.
(14:21):
So they'll have this like, I have to do it perfect.
And they'll work and work and work.
And then once they get it, it's just like, oh, thank God.
And then they're already off to the next thing they have to do.
And so it's like, can you savor with me?
And so we just bring it down andlet's just take a moment and
enjoy this. And that's when you get to see
(14:42):
either this wonderful smile and this like the body resting, or I
could just see what shows up andsays, no, it is not OK to save
her. It hasn't been safe enough to
save her. Yes.
And then we get to see what kindof ghosts are in the room with
us for lack of a I so. Appreciate you sharing that I'm
(15:03):
getting a little insight here from you.
Thank you. I just realized I, I've taken it
as a compliment from my therapist that I'm like, I'll
say, you know, I'm growth oriented.
And she's like, ah, that is an understatement.
But now I'm recognizing like, oh, this constant like movement,
driving, striving. And I've been thinking about
(15:25):
this lately, like, you know, when babies are learn to walk,
it's not like they have to, It'sjust a natural thing.
Like I'm trying to figure this out, like how much of my time I
spend reaching for growth versusjust trusting the natural
process and being like, I don't know.
(15:45):
I don't know that I when you said that earlier about peace, I
thought, what's that like? Yeah.
You. Know, I mean, yeah, that really,
I think I need to go back and make that more of a goal.
Like, I don't think I even have that as a goal.
My brother asked me recently if I had a magic wand and I was
(16:05):
telling him things I would like to see different in the world.
You know, empathy for all you know, compassion, you know, it
goes well. What about your pain when you
like to remove your pain? And I was like, no, because that
informs me about like, I don't know at what cost and, and I
couldn't. But I think peace would be
something I could get behind with a magic wand.
(16:27):
So I think you're talking to something that maybe I can share
some thoughts on. I, I have some clients who think
that if they heal, then they're never going to get upset.
And it's like, no, that's, that's not the goal.
The goal is to live life and to be able to respond to it.
And our emotions inform us on what needs are present and how
(16:49):
to respond to the environment, right?
So you know, we're going to feelsad when there's lust, we're
going to feel angry when we feeltread upon.
So we get to have rich emotions.But there's something behind it,
right? And it's this inner groundedness
(17:09):
and this connection to our deeper wisdom that we can then,
say, help guide these feelings so that they can do what they
need to do, That I can hear themand then respond wisely.
I love that and I the word attunement comes to mind because
of so much of my work in my recovery program and therapy is
(17:30):
about self abandonment. And as a adoptive parent, we had
to go to parenting classes and we learned about attuning to the
child versus maybe what happenedin my experience was that I
attuned to my mother to make myself safe and so I abandoned
my needs. And so I'm hearing you that to
(17:51):
be attuned with oneself, to not abandon oneself.
And then these stuffies like as we are able to start knowing
that part of us through that work and then integrating it and
trusting it, trusting its voice,like hearing it and trusting it.
I like the way you said it. Why did I need to rephrase it?
(18:11):
I don't think you're I'm putting.
It into my eyesing validating. I yeah, that's my active
listening. There you go.
But parts to me often are, are spicy.
They, they're, they're big, right?
That so shame can be big and youknow, anger can be big and
sadness can be big And those, you know, you've mentioned the
(18:33):
inner child, that small place can be big.
So learning how to say hi, talk to me, tell me, tell me what you
need, tell me what you sense. Tell me what wisdom I need to
hear from you. And then have another place
where you go and say, how can I show up for that?
Yes, from this like centered wisdom place.
(18:56):
That to me is, is what's super yummy and what I've learned
through. So I'm now certified in
psychedelic work as well. That's awesome.
You know, I'm a big proponent ofpsychedelic therapy.
Congratulations and thank you. I'm, I'm happy for your clients
as well. Well.
Thank you. But what I've, I've discovered
in this is that there's also a really deep, deep wisdom that I
(19:20):
feel like is timeless. And so as I've done that work,
I've now learned another deeper layer of I'll be sitting with a
client and I'll just take a moment.
And because I know that like, fear screams, but wisdom
whispers. So if I take that moment and say
what's here, I get messages thatI couldn't explain.
(19:43):
But all of a sudden it's like I'll ask a question or I'll say,
could we try this? And it was just right.
So it that's what I hope for people as well, is that they can
find their own inner wisdom, learn how to be friends with
their emotions and their experiences, and then figure out
how to show up wisely. That's my hope.
(20:03):
I love that. I love that goal.
I am working on that in my program.
I sound like Stuart Smalley on Saturday Night Live.
I don't know if you know the character I.
Do. Like that character I do too is
my favorite and I love that movie.
Stuart saves his family, I thinkit's called.
It's a very fun movie. It's only.
Haven't seen it. OK I recommend it.
(20:23):
It only has two star rating but I loved it.
I loved it. And anyway, I am in a program,
but the one of the goals is to become an actor rather than a
reactor. And I do have takeovers quite
often from Virginia Vengeance. So yeah, I'm working on it
still. And, and it is.
(20:45):
It's one of those tricky things too, because she feels so
righteous, you know, like her rage feels very like this has to
happen. And I'm not even sure to this
day. I've had a couple of instances
where I have raged on the stage and I will not be asked back to
the Snowmass Comedy Festival did.
You have a rage fest there. I did I it turned it into a rage
(21:06):
fest. It was the Late Show.
No, I would have loved. It's probably on video
somewhere. It wasn't pretty, but I mean
there were a lot of variables leading up to it that I
understand. But two of them that I really
now learned I cannot mix 20 milligrams of Vyvanse with
tequila. OK, that's.
(21:26):
All right, these are those wisdoms we gain along the way.
That's what this was for, was toteach me.
Because I call it my ADHD medication Vyvanse.
I call it a shame and doubt blocker.
Like I don't have any shame or doubt.
I feel so clear on it so. Proliferating and terrifying at
(21:47):
the same time. And then imagine with just a
little extra like a tequila. And I do believe there was also
a Kentucky mule that was had andat altitude, OK, a lot of.
Variables. You were doomed.
Yeah, you were doomed. Oh no, and I don't know.
So here I look back on this and I got to say, I got to say I do
believe. I do believe it's for the
highest good, even though I'm not going to be asked back.
(22:08):
I was warning people about this man that was on stage, who was,
I perceived him to be not only misogynistic, but I perceived
him to be dangerous sociopath. And I was warning all the women
in this bar. It didn't matter that the show
was happening. I was so a warrior.
Yeah, she's a warrior. She's a warrior.
(22:30):
And she is like my therapist is trying to reframe her from
Virginia vengeance to Virginia the valiant, you know.
But I will say this, I don't know if I could have been more
effective. Although women, there were a few
women that came up to me and said I understand.
Oh, I'm glad people could show up for you in that moment.
Yeah, I'm serious, right? To like, know your good
(22:51):
intentions and. Yeah, and one of the audience
members, she had seen me at the earlier show where I was talking
about my codependency. And then she came up to me and
she goes, well, you know how when you're breaking out of
being a codependent and you're done being a people pleaser,
people are not pleased. That's what she let me know that
(23:12):
and I thought. Lovely way to frame that.
But I so, but I was willing to not please people and I was
willing to burn, I guess a bridge.
I don't know. There might have been a more
effective way, I'm not sure. But it's what it was.
It is what it is. It's done maybe still for the
highest good. I I'm trying to trust, trust my
path. I would not like to do it too
often. Well, but I, I think I, I mean,
(23:34):
I hear what you're saying and there there's benefits and costs
to when Virginia comes out, yes,but I'm also hearing, you know,
when we first start hearing those voices that they are
messy, you know, and that's partof us building a relationship
again, is how do I, how do I hold this energy and, and how do
(23:54):
I make room for you? And it usually is.
Yeah, coming out. Especially with alcohol, I
suppose. But anyway, I don't know why I
was bringing that up, but I, I guess because especially with
rage, I think there is a fear sometimes that, oh, if we touch
(24:15):
into this, it's going to be likeso powerful, like it feels
dangerous or destructive or, youknow, I don't know, like
toddlers they say are like little Shivas, you know, but I
think as a toddler, I wasn't allowed to be a little Shiva.
So she never got to like, have her day.
(24:36):
Have her day, you know, it's this may end up being ATMI, but
I, I have a general attitude towards emotions, which is
however we're going to hold themand cope with them.
The goal is to not have a lot ofcleanup at the end, right?
So like, if we however we cope, can the net be positive, right,
(25:00):
All right. And so when I was really getting
in tune with some anger, what I learned is the bathtub is
fantastic because it's a naturalnest, and it's really hard to
yell at people when you're wet and naked, right?
So he was like, it kind of created this container.
And then I could literally Stew in my own juices and just get so
mad. And I'd be cursing in there, and
(25:21):
I'd be, you know, ranting. And then over time, the emotion
would kind of begin to calm down.
And then I started having other thoughts, like is there any
chance the other person might have a good point?
Yes, is. There any chance that you know,
being a therapist for X amount of years that they may not know
those things, right? I'm thinking about like my
(25:44):
beautiful daughter and it's like, am I expecting her to be
27 years older than she is, right?
Like I'm meeting her where she'sat.
So it was a beautiful place to get angry and also a great place
to have a lot of humility at theend, right?
To just seem like. Yeah, this humility.
This that certainty thing might be a little running away with
(26:06):
you, so yeah, yeah, I. Have thought recently, well, it
gets kind of messed with in withmy inner critical parent, which
is a, you know, very shaming part of me that shames and
offloads a lot of self hate and shame when you do this in the
bathtub. I was just you just made me
think of the pool 'cause I I have gone underwater and
(26:27):
screamed underwater. So in the bathtub, do you do you
kind of go underwater if. I need to I can do whatever I
want because. That that really would buffer
the sound, wouldn't it? To be underwater?
I don't know it. It does, but you must know about
me that I'm not a buffer. So I have a a big martial arts
bat in my office and sometimes people need to scream lots of
(26:49):
things. And so we hit pillows and let
those big feelings happen. So is your.
Office set up in a way that you can be super loud in there
without the office mates coming to you saying hey we got a
problem. I am so gifted.
So on one side is bathrooms, on the other side is therapists
that I don't think are ever there.
And I'm on the top floor. So I just say, you know what
(27:12):
we're it's also a building that has a lot of therapists.
So I figure, you know what, let's just do this thing.
OK, so. I just was wondering because I
know in the past with type of therapy I covered my face with
pillow to scream so loud becauseI was worried about bothering
other people. But then that's that part of me,
that's you know. Yeah, I wait.
Wait till you have a microphone and and there's a there's a
(27:33):
Comedy Festival. Exactly.
There you go. Yeah.
Oh, but I've, I've had clients, you know, when it feels right,
right. It's not scripted, but it's
like, what do you need to have come out of you?
And it doesn't matter what wordsare said, it doesn't matter how
loud, it's just how can you haveroom for your voice so.
(27:55):
I love this. I try to make room for that, you
know. I I am appreciating that, yeah.
And not to, but like, let it go.And then in your experience,
have you found that there's a satisfaction afterwards?
I mean, because the fear I'm having is like, oh, is that
going to make me want to rage more?
Or, you know, I think. I think one of the things that's
(28:19):
really significant to name is that it's one thing to do it by
yourself, it's another to have it witnessed.
And so when someone gets big andI'm right there with them and
they're seeing, wait, you're nottelling me to be quiet, You're
not reenacting my mom telling methat I can't be angry like
you're giving me room. There's just something really
(28:40):
pure about it. And I hold the space, I create
the container and I have ways ofsaying, oh, let's channel that
this way or let's let's make sure it has this right so that
at the end they know I'm safe. I can go big and still be OK.
And then I make sure they have asoft landing, so.
(29:02):
And not be abandoned. And not be abandoned.
Abandoned. Yeah, that's such a gift to
people. I think so.
And, and I should mention for your listeners that you know it,
you don't have to get big. So some people that's what they
feel, that's what they need and other people it's quiet and it's
(29:22):
might be more mental or might bemore body or whatever.
So it's, I don't want anybody tothink that the only way to heal
is by being loud. There's so many things that we
can do. So this is just one particular
option, the toolbox of options so.
I love that. I love the toolbox of options,
you know that. And so in my trauma therapy and
(29:45):
different styles, I mean, yeah, I'm one of those that's like I
it's hard to imagine not having a therapist.
I got to say, I really find it'ssuch a special relationship,
especially a trusted, you know, when you've built a
relationship. And I have had three long term
therapists so far. Like I feel like the first one
was seven or eight years and then I think again and then now
(30:08):
I think I'm a few years in and it's all different.
The person I'm with now, she used to, I met her doing
psychedelic therapy and then it was so transformative and
bonding. And I did the first time it was
MDMA therapy, which was profoundto open my heart to myself.
(30:29):
I had never done that particulardrug ever.
And that's what she said, I wantyou to try this because I want
you to open your heart to yourself 1st.
And anyway, what is my point here?
Well, you're. Talking about a long, long term
therapist. So you'd said?
Yeah, and different modalities. And I was, I think I was leading
(30:49):
into the psychedelic because even though I had done EMDR and
brain spotting, there was something I couldn't get to.
Everything in my life made senseafterwards.
That's all I can say. Yeah.
Everything like needing to be heard, you know, and feeling
like I might die if I'm not hurt.
And now I'm like, OK. But I was curious for you, do
(31:10):
you identify as the wounded healer?
Like did you come from a place where you had to heal yourself
first or simultaneously? Like my podcast is I'm still
healing myself with it, sort of Co healing.
Yes, I do think I'm a. I'm a wounded healer, but I
would also say I feel like all of us, if we're human beings
(31:32):
going through this messy world, that we're going to have some
trauma. It just is right you.
Haven't met anyone that doesn't.No, but I'm at a place in life
now where a lot of like those wounds are, are quiet.
And So what I find is that I just keep experiencing new
things with different people andgetting to see how does that
(31:54):
inform my world? How does that broaden?
You know, how are you challenging me?
Like what are you needing me to know about you?
And how can I show up for you? Right.
It's it's, I don't want to say like I've arrived.
I don't feel that way but I justfeel like my stuff isn't loud I
think is how I would say it. Okay, and I feel.
(32:15):
Cuz it doesn't need to be loud. It can feel heard without being
loud. Yeah, you're listening to the
whisper of the wisdom. I am trying to listen to all of
it, Yeah, and now. That you're recently, I'm
thinking recently got certified with psychedelics June and I was
curious as part of that we experienced, I mean a lot of
(32:36):
folks do go through it yourself.Did you, did you go through some
or would you be comfortable talking about, I'm happy to
having psychedelic therapy yourself or in the training if
anything shifted for you or maybe This is why it's your next
level of like access Because we were talking about spirituality
and some of the synchronicities and I was just curious if this
(32:56):
is part of your personal growth.Sure.
Well, I kind of like you. I had done a lot of EMDR, I have
done a lot of therapy and there were just some things that were
still there and really, really persistent and felt beyond my
capacity. And so I, I had a client who
(33:17):
actually introduced me to the whole psychedelic world was
sending me like academic papers and stuff like you have to read
this, you should do this. You should get psychic, you know
you should get certified. As Stuart Smalley would say,
they were shooting all over you there.
You go there you go. I was being shoot on.
So I, I ended up saying, well, let me see what happens.
(33:37):
And so I, I worked with MDMA myself twice and some things
really, really shifted and got quiet.
But the things I needed that I went to it for like went into
the medicine with, weren't touched yet.
So then when I worked with a different medicine, it, it
(33:58):
shifted things dramatically. And so that's when it was like
this, this feels right. And I just looked at my
beautiful humans that I work with and could see there's some
of you that we can't touch. Whatever it is.
Yeah, we're not get into. It those defense mechanisms are
so powerful sometimes. The protection.
(34:19):
So. So to me, this was like, if
there's a way I can be more educated more, have more tools
to see how I can support your healing, That was the whole
purpose behind this. Yeah.
And so I'm just grateful to me, it's not for everybody, but it's
nice to have EMDR, it's nice to have the psychedelic work, it's
(34:42):
nice to have the gestalt work. So creates hopefully a nice way
to work with whatever people arebringing to me.
A well-rounded offering. I do try Yeah, yes.
And I'm guessing maybe some gifts that came for you
personally through it through isn't that cool how sometimes,
you know, I, I, I worked for a number of years as a registered
(35:03):
nurse and sometimes the, you know, the patient gives you
these gifts sometimes and it's really cool to be in that space
of receiving occasionally. Not that we go into it for that,
but it's like a secondary gain or whatever.
I guess it's like, wow, that's and you know, even in my
recovery work where I'm sponsoring somebody, but then
I'm like, wow, this person just blew my mind.
(35:24):
Like I'm thinking I don't have whatever bandwidth to sponsor
somebody and then they give me this amazing gift, you know, of
sharing an insight they had. It's so cool.
Well, I'm kind of addicted to therapy because and why I say
that is because I get to work with these beautiful people who
are willing to be vulnerable andand we get to have real
(35:46):
conversations, reach deep places.
And there's nothing like it, right?
You know, it's just nothing. So yeah, I just, I just feel so
blessed by that. And you're right.
I get to learn from them. I remember when I was getting
supervised and then mentored, she would ask me.
So Tanya, what do you think? You have so many people with
(36:08):
self esteem issues. Message received.
Yeah, nothing like your own stuff staring you in the face to
keep you humble. Message received.
I love how you said that. Oh man, I'm yeah.
(36:28):
Oh, it's the 7:00 or yeah, whatever time it is. 7:00
tornado. It's just a warning every.
Well, how exciting. Yeah, it's this is a warning
system test. Oh, OK.
Maybe we can work that into the theme.
You know, it's this is only a test, this whole life thing,
right? It's just a test.
(36:49):
I don't know how. I mean, I, I am very, I mean, I
especially after doing some psychedelic therapies, I have, I
feel like remove some blocks to some access to some spirit
wisdom or spirit connection. And I am sort of looking at the
fact that my soul chose this mother.
My soul chose this life and these challenges.
(37:11):
And I maybe that's a way of me getting out of my victim energy.
But I'm just like. I think my next question is why
did I choose that? Well, you're definitely
highlighting that there are waysI can grow through my
experiences. I know yes, I had this mother
and how can I, how can I evolve from that and not be permanently
(37:32):
wounded by it? And that's it's a lot of work to
do that. So is this like a Weather
Service? Yeah, it's the, it's the tornado
warning system. They test it or the flood.
Warning, that's reassuring. Yes, it's how are you doing on
your trauma recovery exactly? Going to fight, fight, Freeze
fawn. You don't remember fawn.
(37:54):
What else is there? Fight, flight, Freeze, fawn.
Flight flag. What there's some new FS?
There's 7 total trauma responses.
Oh hang on, can this might be a good time to do it during the
tornado? There you go.
I'm really traumatized, OK, it's.
She's not done. She's not done.
She's not done. She just keeps.
(38:14):
We got to let her have her voice.
What part of us is that? She's the.
If you do IFS, this would be a firefighter.
OK, she yeah, she's the firefighter.
Morning, morning. Yeah.
Do you have a stuffy for a firefighter?
Well, I mean, firefighters come in many forms, I know.
(38:35):
But I'm curious what form your firefighter?
Would what form would my firefighter be?
So firefighters can come in terms of like shutting down?
That's that can be a firefighter.
People who go and drink can be afighter.
So like one of those fire blankets, you know, ones that
they're on reels. Lately, I've been seeing the
fire blankets. There you go in my I must have
(38:58):
paused on that ad long enough that I get to see a lot of those
now. Algorithm, yeah.
Yep. So anyway, you were asking me
about the trauma types. Yes, OK.
The trauma types, this is, I didn't know there were seven.
There's 7. There's 7.
OK, fight. Fight Virginia Vengeance.
Fight. Yep, light freeze, fawn.
(39:23):
That's all I know so far. So do you mind if I kind of put
this in a story contact? Oh, yeah, I'll, I'll stop
talking. No, no, you don't.
I was trying to. I I didn't know what you were
looking. At that's not what I'm talking.
About. I thought I was supposed to
guess. Well, you were, you were doing
great. I didn't want to interrupt you.
I'm like you're. You're shining.
Here it's beautiful off is that one.
So so maybe it will be from thisthat's the fight will be.
(39:47):
So you have you have flight is first because if we want can
leave the situation, we want to,right?
And then if I can't, then I'll fight and then, well, that's not
going to work. So I'm going to play dead
because maybe the predator will lose interest and go away,
right? So that's the freeze, right?
And then sometimes we can't go anywhere.
(40:08):
And so then we hit fright level.So this is like the whole body
is kind of on, yeah, rigid fright, fright.
OK. And so then we go into flag.
And that's when I can escape this.
I think I may have to leave my body so I can preserve part of
my ego no matter what might happen to me physically.
(40:31):
And so that's when we start seeing dissociation, OK, And
then into faint is when the bodyis going to fall to the floor,
thinks it may have been poisoned.
So we get the heart and the and the head even.
So blood flows evenly and we tend to throw up and that's
getting rid of the toxin, right?So think of people who are like
(40:55):
trapped in really, really awful situations.
They're they're the ones who aregoing to go all that way
through, right? Most of us are hanging out in
the fight right freeze area. What you're highlighting is
there's another one which is fawn, and that's for specific
situations where it makes more sense to my system to please
(41:18):
that which is dangerous because I'll be less likely to be, you
know, traumatized or wounded. So I will please you and that
I'll be in your good graces and those are tend to be in
situations where the situation'schronic.
Yeah, I was going to say. Staying with mom who you with
all the time. And that's where that
codependency can be birthed. And then our I just saw some
(41:42):
something, I don't know what I was watching about a girl that
was kidnapped and she fond her kidnapper and was able to get
free because of it, made herselfsafe and also gained his trust
in some way. Anyway, it was fascinating to me
that she thought to do that. I knew to do that.
(42:02):
Maybe that's just part of our instinct system.
Well, it, that's just it. It's the whole thing is about
survival. So how do I help myself survive
in this? And so whatever we need to do,
you know, yeah, we're going to do it.
And so that's your work is helping us to know what what
survival, when is it time to laythese down?
(42:24):
If we're in a chronic state of codependency or a chronic state
of fawning? And when is it like trying to
learn it's a safe place and we can lay this down now and we're
not a helpless child or whatever, you know, trying to
step into our adult self and ourempowered wisdom.
I mean, I think what you're highlighting is that that's part
(42:45):
of the question is, hey, for this protection, is it safe
enough to like to rest? Because we we still want these
protections in place if we need them, but maybe we don't need
them as much maybe but they, butthey have to know it's safe
enough to let go, right? They have to make sure that so
it takes time. Yeah, for that it sure does.
(43:09):
My experience. Yeah.
Well, especially like with complex PTSD, and I mean, I, you
know, my, my therapist who does,who did brain spotting, you
know, my son had an acute event of being attacked by a man here
in Boulder as a, as a boy, as a kid, you know, like choked in
the street. And, but she was able to help
(43:29):
clear that in just a one or two sessions because of proximity to
it. It was just one isolated
incident. Whereas if you've had a long
childhood, which, which they are, then that does take time,
doesn't it? To, to let you know, like it.
We aren't there now and it's hard to even know.
Like I hear this all time in meetings, especially with
(43:51):
codependency of people like who am I?
Like who is my authentic self? We're so over identified with
that pleaser part of us, that fawning part or whatever you
call it. Well, and part of fawning is
that I'm so focused on the otherperson that I don't get to have
needs and wants. So I have to relearn them.
I have to learn it's OK to have them and then the space to
(44:15):
discover. And that's that's hard.
Yeah. So it's not a problem to be in
therapy for years, right? Like my?
Siblings, they'll look at me andgo, well, I don't want to be in
therapy for years. Right, I'm going to be ornery.
I want to say that, and I want you to say it as a statement
instead of a question. Yeah, okay.
(44:38):
OK, I love that you just said that because I have these
codependent necklaces, you know,and it says I honor myself and
on the back if you don't mind, right.
And then, and then if you want to be, you know, in your power,
you read the back first. If you don't mind, I'll honor
myself. And so I hear what you're
saying. I think it is that.
OK, So let me try and say that as a statement.
(45:01):
I appreciate my willingness to let go of my lifelong survival
traits by staying in therapy foryears until I get it.
Was that better? Well, I I was that not what we
were going. For Well, it's OK.
So what what you're doing is you're coming to me and you're
(45:23):
saying, is this OK? Yeah.
And so I'm saying I'm not the one to answer that.
So instead, how about if you sayyou turn it into a statement and
try it on and it's either going to be wrong or it's going to be
right. So you're going to say it's OK
to be in therapy for years? Well, that doesn't feel right or
Yeah. So what's true for you?
(45:44):
So I would say turn that into a statement and try it on.
Yeah. That is true for me.
It's OK to be in therapy for years, Yeah.
Yeah, you get to own that. Thank you.
Yeah. I'm very selfish with my
podcast. I get to heal myself, you know,
(46:04):
I think you said. That at the start, that that's
part of what this is. For I hope people, I do hear
from folks that get a little nugget here and there.
So. And I really do believe in the
power of the the the speaker andthe witness and like they are
holding space and I'm sending itback.
(46:25):
Like there, it's going back and forth.
Yeah, you know. Oh yeah.
It's kind of living what we're talking about, which is so fun,
yeah. Is there any anything else you
feel like sharing about psychedelic therapy, therapy,
play, comedy, traumedy, Any partof you that wants to be heard?
(46:46):
I think being is nice, we can just be with it for a little
bit. We can, Yeah, maybe.
Let's see. Let's see where this goes.
So I in January when, Well, actually in November, when the
news came out about how the election transpired, I of course
(47:07):
had my own personal response andI got a text from a former
client who said my women's groupwants you to come and talk to us
about how to cope with this. Oh, OK.
So I already have to have everything clean for myself.
And, and so luckily I, I spaced it out a bit until January, but
went and spoke to these women. And in the meantime, I really
(47:31):
tried to borrow from, there's a wonderful Buddhist scholar who's
here in Boulder, actually Pima Chodoran.
And I don't think I'm saying herlast name right, but went to
also like a, a Jewish rabbi and Viktor Frankel who did Man's
Search for Meaning. And so I was like, OK, what
wisdoms can we can we glean? And the one thing that just
(47:53):
spoke to me so much was we need to stay awake, right?
So to, no matter what's happening, we need to be able to
be present for it because that'sthe only way we'll have
responsibility. And so I just keep seeing all
these different ways where people are trying to avoid
(48:14):
including themselves, right? Like, I, I just don't want to
think about that. I want to talk about that.
I want to feel that. And it's like, I wonder how we
can show up and, and keep our head up, keep our center and
say, how do I show up in this moment?
And so I feel like as as we're now months into this, this
(48:37):
presidency, this experience, political landscape, you know,
that we keep showing up. And I hope as we do this
together in community, we can also do this together in our in
within ourselves. You know, just how do we stay
awake? And I think that's a big thing
I'd love for people to to keep being invited to do.
(49:00):
Thank you for that and I really appreciated how you combine the
word with response and ability. Not responsibility, but response
ability. That was interesting.
I hadn't, I've never heard that that way.
What is mine to do? What is my responsibility and
what is my responsibility? And I'm still asking that and I
(49:21):
have been dissociating a lot with my phone and doom scrolling
and. And are there any insights that
come for you or that help you stay awake to tolerate and
titrate the pain? Because I feel a lot of pain and
agitation and it's hard to tolerate it.
(49:43):
And so is there any? I hear the naked bath could be
helpful. I'm feeling like diving into the
pool and yeah, but is there? I mean, I guess finding like
minds, finding community. I don't know, I'm just guessing.
All these sound great to me. I also feel like I'm trying to
approach this as how am I going to be invited to grow through
(50:07):
this? Not to, you know, around it.
Not that I can't or whatever, but you know, how do I see this
as a moment to seize? How, where will I be called?
How will I be called? What in me needs expression?
And, and to know that we don't always get to grow when it's
comfortable, you know, hardly ever, yeah.
(50:29):
Honestly, I know it's so I've been asking higher power.
May I please learn from delight.I I will stay awake.
I will follow that frequency andI am intermittently doing that.
But I I just I I had another guest who cut she she's a she's
a therapist. She's a psychiatrist.
She was laughing like, good luckwith that.
Yeah, exactly. But I mean, I think it's I think
(50:53):
it's OK to state that as a request.
And I've learned a lot from suffering.
Thank you. I do believe in post traumatic
gifts and growths. And I do feel like one of my
gifts is, you know, bringing laughter to people and raising
the frequency and acknowledging some of these things in a way
that's tolerable with humor. But also, may I please learn
from delight exactly. And not become that which we are
(51:19):
disgusted by. Because I have had that in
relationships with sociopaths. I when you try to outthink them,
outplay them, you start, they start 3D printing in your own
brain and it's just like, Oh, no, I don't want to become them
to win at their game. Yeah, because sometimes I get
mad at the Democrats for not like, look what they're doing.
(51:42):
They're breaking all the rules. We should break the rules.
You know, I mean, and I'm not a Democrat.
I just want to say I'm a registered independent.
I'm way over far. I'm farther over.
I was Green Party. I was.
But anyway, I know as a therapist, I know you you, you
try to be a, a neutral. But I think that there are some
things being revealed that that have we've been on a trajectory
(52:05):
for decades that has not been course corrected, you know, and
so we may need to see some things and face some things in
order to get on a healthier path.
And so, you know, we usually don't like to grow.
We usually don't want to sign upfor it.
It's it's kind of sometimes thrust upon us.
(52:27):
So whatever side of the aisle you're on, this is a chance to
grow. Yeah, and look within and how do
you want to show up when it's hard?
Because that's what I'm trying to figure out is what does
loving mean when it's hard? I can love when it's easy.
I know, right. And so, but I don't know what
that means that. Well, I some, I have some good
(52:49):
ideas, but you know, it doesn't mean enabling bad behavior.
It doesn't mean just just being sweet all the time.
That's not love to me, right? Right.
So. We're not going to play.
We don't have to play nice. Yeah, that's not what you're
saying. You're, you're saying it's OK to
love and hold folks accountable and whatever it is you're called
(53:10):
to do. I guess.
I mean, everybody has a different gift to bring or a
different calling and the whole othering thing just can get it.
I just know I was writing something yesterday or whatever,
it doesn't matter when, but it was basically about it's just
othering leads to hate, leads towars.
I don't know. Oh.
Yeah, in Gestalt we have a a wonderful human who was back in
(53:35):
like 1910 ish era called Boober.And he came up with some
different ways people can interact.
And one of them, he said, is an I thou.
And the I thou moment is that I see your humanity.
I see that you are, you are, youknow, with me, right?
Even so, I can be mad at you andI can struggle with you, but
(54:00):
that vowelness that that humanity remains intact.
And then he highlighted another kind of interaction, which is an
I it. And that's what you're talking
about, where I can project onto you.
I can treat you less than. And that's when things get
dangerous because we may have feelings, but then we can also
(54:22):
give ourselves a lot of permission to misbehave.
So to me, if we can show up in these moments with that I thou
heart, that's what we need, no matter, you know, whether we
agree or disagree. How do we never I hit anyone?
Wow. Thank you.
I think that's a good place to pause.
(54:43):
Yeah. Feel good.
Yeah, it feels really good. I'm glad you checked in and
brought that up at the meeting. How can people reach you if they
want to reach out for therapy? Or are you open to having
people? I can put in the show notes a
link to your website or it might.
Be great. And I have a a monthly
(55:04):
newsletter I have so people are welcome to also say, hey, here's
a topic I'd love to know more about because usually what I
write about is what I keep seeing either in my office or
seeing in the world. So yeah, I'd love for people to
to reach out. My practice is called Side by
Side counselling. Side by side.
Yes, exactly. Counseling.
(55:25):
And that's all. One word.
If they go to the website, they go.
To the website, so it's SBS counseling is my web address,
but the the name of my practice is Side by Side counseling.
Thank you, Tanya. Tanya Henderson, thank you so
much. It's been a pleasure.
Appreciate you. I want to thank my guests, Tanya
(55:46):
Henderson, check out Tanya's website, give her feedback for
her newsletter at SBS Counseling.
That's side by side counseling.com.
I want to thank my son, Nathaniel Norton for putting
together the music loop for Traumedy.
And I want to thank you, the listener for witnessing this,
giving feedback, sharing the vibe, raising the frequency
(56:08):
together. We're going to get through
things. We are doing it.
You know we are. We're going to get through it.
Just keep going through it, keepbreathing.
Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I'm going to
work on these things we talked about on this episode about not
othering, not I it. Oh, it's so hard for me.
(56:30):
I want to I it some people. OK, I got to keep working on
that. All I know is we're all doing
our best. Let's keep doing it.
Let's keep loving each other andlaughing when we can remember.
No matter what, keep laughing.
You're listening to Trauma D, the podcast that helps you take
your pain and play with it. I'm Nancy Norton, I'm a
comedian. I'm a former nurse.
I'm a keynote speaker about the power of humor, the many, many
benefits of humor, why we need it, how it helps us in all kinds
of ways. I will be out there delivering
that keynote this month in Chicago at Chicago General
(00:28):
Hospital. That sounds like, I don't know,
it sounds like a cartoon hospital, Chicago General
Hospital. We have a great guest this week.
She is a therapist. I met her from doing a corporate
gig here in Denver at a beautiful law firm.
One of her clients was like, youneed to meet my therapist, Tanya
Henderson. But what I've, I've discovered
(00:49):
in this is that there's also a really deep, deep wisdom that I
feel like it's timeless. And so as I've done that work,
I've now learned another deeper layer of I'll be sitting with a
client and I'll just take a moment.
And because I know that like fear screams, but wisdom
whispers. So if I take that moment and
(01:12):
say, what's here, I get messagesthat I couldn't explain.
But all of a sudden it's like I'll ask a question or I'll say,
could we try this? And it was just right.
So it that's what I hope for people as well, is that they can
find their own inner wisdom. This guest embraces A playful
(01:32):
approach to therapy. She has a little plaque that
says employee of the month, and it's always her.
And she has a staff of stuffies and is a fan of comedy.
Used to be on the board at the Bug Theatre.
Speaking of the Bug Theatre, that's another place.
There's a show coming up called Headstrong with a bunch of
scientists, brilliant scientists, women, and then a
(01:56):
bunch of female comedians pairing up, all for the good
cause of research in Women's Health because there's not
enough of it. And now, especially in these
times with this administration, research is at risk.
What else do you want to know? Oh, yeah, if you want to come to
one of my shows and Oh yeah, I'mgoing to be up in Alaska, the
(02:16):
Alaska World Arts Festival in Homer, AK, and then doing a Moms
Unhinged in Anchorage. That's towards the end of
September. Oh, there's a bunch of other
shows. You want to know about a show,
please go to my website, nancynorton.tv.
That's nancynorton.tv. Like television and spread the
word about traumedy. Traumedy is not a replacement
(02:37):
for trauma therapy, but it does help you get by between
sessions. If you know somebody who's
feeling isolated with their trauma or needs to know they're
not alone or maybe just needs a laugh, please share this with
them. All right, that's enough for me
for now. I'll see you on the other side.
Enjoy this episode. Welcome to Trauma D.
(03:00):
My guest this week is a psychotherapist.
Please welcome Tonya Henderson, everybody.
Woo and I, I have AI, always have.
I always do this. I have a the angels love the
clap. And that's what I think.
Thank you for coming to Boulder today.
Oh. My pleasure.
And and for responding to whatever it was in our mutual
(03:22):
friend, who probably remains anonymous because maybe a client
of yours. I'm not sure.
I think she indicated that to me.
But when I met her, she's like, oh, you need to meet Tonya
Henderson. That's what she.
Said That's so sweet of her. That's so sweet.
Well, she knows my mission statement is to help heal myself
and others. And then maybe because she also
(03:42):
knew that you were involved withcomedy like you were on the
board of the Bug Theater in Denver.
It could be, but I also know that I have a style of therapy
where I play. Folks.
That's what it is. So I have a style of therapy
that truly like we, we do experiments and we, I have a
(04:04):
whole wall of stuffed animals tohelp represent what you might be
feeling on the inside and can relate to those, those different
parts. Yes, you know, I have one that
is a a cat I call Nibs and it itlooks insane.
The eyes are like this. Oh yeah, like frantic hair and
one of one of folks favorites because it can represent like
(04:26):
that inner turmoil. Oh my gosh stuffies.
I have worked with stuffies personally.
Like even I had an ex-girlfriendone time who she would talk to
me through the stuff. He's like a puppet.
Oh, that's delightful. Yeah, she would.
We would. We'd be sitting there and she
would have it in front of us going well.
And then she she was really good, like puppeteer too.
She would make it look at me andher and she goes wait, but she's
(04:49):
worried. And then she would.
So she would talk in third person like that.
And I think it really gave her permission to share some of her
tender feelings through a bit ofa buffer.
And it really opened my heart too, to where not I wasn't as
defensive. I could hear it.
Do you use it with individuals and couples or?
I, I work with individuals. So a, a way that I might use it
(05:12):
is, is to have often times there's more than one active.
So, you know, if, if there's an inner conflict, like let's see
if I can give you an example. Part of me wants to go to the
party tonight, part of me doesn't.
And so these, these different, you know, stuffed animals or
pillows or whatever we choose todo can give voice to the
experience. And what I tried to do is get it
(05:34):
clean so that because inside it's churning all the time and
we're not able to really pinpoint like, what's the need?
What's, what's the voice here? And so these, those, these
little fuzzy representations canbe like, Oh, this feels like my
pleaser just wants to keep everybody happy.
Or this one is I'm I'm a chameleon or I'm full of of rage
(06:01):
here or what? Whatever the emotion.
Might be. I love it, I love it.
So this also helps them hold it tenderly.
Yeah, and have that just a little bit of distance with it.
Yes, I have a stuffy actually, it's hidden under this this
scarf and it has you know, I've mentioned I have the misaligned
eyes, which is a trauma and I dobelieve from a trauma in
(06:23):
infancy. And my frog, my frog has
misaligned eyes. Oh, that's.
So delightful. Yeah, and my therapist gave it
to me a while back when I was doing brain spotting therapy.
And I had a little frog when I first had eye surgery when I was
6. And they put patches on my eyes.
And then they put these things on my arms that they that I
(06:44):
couldn't touch my head, like a little elbow lock.
And then it was one of the most tender memories with my mom that
she would loosen the she was a nurse, too, and she was a rule
follower. But she loosened my little arm
splints and let me hug my froggy.
It was a. Tender memory.
And so then Froggy became my emotional support.
(07:05):
Stuffy, yeah. Who you could literally hold by
your heart. Yeah, yeah.
And I have a couple stuffies on my bed that are represent my
inner child and my inner child'splay, you know, playmate.
So this is wonderful that you, I, I, I don't know if you're
comfortable or even if, if it would make sense.
I was picturing, I would love tosee a picture of your stuffy
(07:26):
collection. Is it up on a wall or is it in a
net? Is it in a?
Is it all over the room? They're they live in lots of
places. So I have a family of otters to
do like parts, right? I have a whole bookshelf full of
them. Oh, I have a dammit doll.
(07:47):
I have. Tell me about Dammit Doll.
Well, let me finish with the other ones.
OK. And then we'll come back.
So it's like I'm just trying to think of some.
So I do. I have a chameleon, I have nibs.
The cat I have an angry bird is one of them.
I have this little Prairie dog that has a necklace around her
for perfection. I have little possum for the
(08:10):
freeze response people shut downand I have little bunnies to
represent like the the wounded places.
So yeah, just a myriad of different.
Do they come to you? Do people bring stuffies or do
you just find them out in the world like that?
Stuffy needs to be. I would say both.
So nibs came to my life when I was going to the chocolate
(08:32):
therapist. It's done in Littleton.
Super great place. And he was in a gaming store
just looking out at me and I'm like, Oh my, you, you must live
with me. You must be one with me.
It's always oh, it's just so pure, perfect.
So Nibs is those chocolate little pieces.
That's why Nibs has that name. But other ones usually come
(08:56):
from, I'm trying to do work withpeople on these different parts.
And it's like, I don't have a representation for that.
Yeah. So my my recent addition is a
bat. And people love to highlight
like, you know, wrapping themselves up to shield
themselves from the world, right?
Like a bat hanging with its wings around itself.
(09:17):
Yes, or feeling misunderstood, right, because bats are so
misunderstood. So yeah, I what I love about
stuffed animals is that they allow people to project onto
them what they need them to be. So I don't have to tell people
what's true for them. They get to show me what's true
for them. And it really liberates that
part to speak. Yes.
(09:38):
That's amazing. And I, I'm doing some IFS work,
some inner family systems work. I was going to tell you about a
part. I have an inner teenager.
Her name is Virginia Vengeance. Oh, I love that she takes the
knives out of her back and like,come on.
Yeah, she's never want to fight,but she's down for one.
She's very ragey. She's very intuitive.
(10:01):
She knows what's up. She can spot a sociopath, and
she likes to call them out in public.
And I didn't listen to her for awhile, and she's really, really,
really mad at me for not listening to her in some of my
relationships where I let you know she protects in her, in her
baby. She's a tired babysitting now,
so I'm trying to give her a break.
But I was thinking about damn it, doll, I don't know.
(10:22):
Do you think she'd be a cousin to Virginia Vengeance?
I think Virginia Vengeance needsa damn it doll.
OK right, Because damn it dolls are are intended to allow
expression of your emotions. So I had one client who took
who, who borrowed my damn it doll and ended up hitting this
(10:42):
on on a staircase and beheaded the thing.
And I thought that is what they're for, right?
It's safe, but it's big, right? And that's for big feelings and.
And it needed to happen. There's you're safe, there's no
damage, there's no. Except to the damn it doll.
Except to the damn it doll, which I delight that we can just
(11:04):
sew that head right back on. And.
It's her purpose and she acceptsher purpose.
She's like, I'm happy to help you.
I'm like a starfish that grows another arm.
There you go put in maybe get a damn a doll with a couple heads.
2 had a damn a doll. That's great.
So it's a place like, 'cause we get so much shame or I let me
(11:25):
just do I statements. I feel ashamed and I have been
shamed for having anger, like it's just an unacceptable
emotion in a lot of cultures andespecially for me.
I'm going to say why I want to say for females in our culture,
it's just, you know, my mother would not you.
You weren't allowed to even you weren't allowed to talk back to
(11:48):
her. You weren't allowed to.
Oh, that was pretty much it. And.
There you go. Yes, I think that's so true.
In fact, I think that's one of the emotions that people have
dissociated the most. And it's either a form of
protection. So we're then out in the world
without one of our most effective protections, or it's a
(12:10):
lament, right? Like I'm like, why does this
have to be this way? Why can't you hear me?
Or what? The right, whatever.
So if we disown that, then there's so much of our
experience we don't get to hold and have room for.
This is my experience with my mother, who wasn't allowing
(12:31):
herself to have her anger. I had to have it for her, but
then I get in trouble for it. Do you know?
I've had a lot of partners whereI've learned, like, I think I
was having their feelings for them.
And I mean, I got to own my own feelings too, but it's like,
that's some crazy making stuff right there.
Like if we have our own feelings, it's so helpful to
(12:53):
people around us. Like I wish we would embrace
that more. Like with GAIL, my ex who and I
don't remember her using anger as much, but it was it was
mainly like little shy part of her that wanted to ask for
something but wasn't allowed to.Yeah, sure.
Anyway that is this a this type of therapy?
You were saying you do gestalt? Is this part of gestalt?
(13:13):
Well, it's my flavor of gestalt.Yeah, because.
Because we all. You're licensed to do it.
And I'm certified in it. No, but I mean Gestalt the the
one of the big pieces is it believes in our inherent health
and our our desire to be whole and that through, you know,
exploration, trying new things, that the goal is to eventually
(13:35):
find that place of peace and wholeness.
So you can't get much yummier than that.
And so we were talking about parts before IFS was here.
In fact, Richard Schwartz even comments on, you know, his work
with gestalt. OK.
Before kind of coming up with. So that's sort of what informed
the IFS or was part. Of it, I would say, I also
(13:58):
think, you know, if you're a therapist long enough, you see
parts. It just yeah, I could see this
from the even before I started grad school.
So but yeah, but parts is part of it.
No pun intended. No pun or or is pun intended.
Exactly. But you know, the work can be
subtle. Like one of the things I see
with trauma folks is they don't savor.
(14:21):
So they'll have this like, I have to do it perfect.
And they'll work and work and work.
And then once they get it, it's just like, oh, thank God.
And then they're already off to the next thing they have to do.
And so it's like, can you savor with me?
And so we just bring it down andlet's just take a moment and
enjoy this. And that's when you get to see
(14:42):
either this wonderful smile and this like the body resting, or I
could just see what shows up andsays, no, it is not OK to save
her. It hasn't been safe enough to
save her. Yes.
And then we get to see what kindof ghosts are in the room with
us for lack of a I so. Appreciate you sharing that I'm
(15:03):
getting a little insight here from you.
Thank you. I just realized I, I've taken it
as a compliment from my therapist that I'm like, I'll
say, you know, I'm growth oriented.
And she's like, ah, that is an understatement.
But now I'm recognizing like, oh, this constant like movement,
driving, striving. And I've been thinking about
(15:25):
this lately, like, you know, when babies are learn to walk,
it's not like they have to, It'sjust a natural thing.
Like I'm trying to figure this out, like how much of my time I
spend reaching for growth versusjust trusting the natural
process and being like, I don't know.
(15:45):
I don't know that I when you said that earlier about peace, I
thought, what's that like? Yeah.
You. Know, I mean, yeah, that really,
I think I need to go back and make that more of a goal.
Like, I don't think I even have that as a goal.
My brother asked me recently if I had a magic wand and I was
(16:05):
telling him things I would like to see different in the world.
You know, empathy for all you know, compassion, you know, it
goes well. What about your pain when you
like to remove your pain? And I was like, no, because that
informs me about like, I don't know at what cost and, and I
couldn't. But I think peace would be
something I could get behind with a magic wand.
(16:27):
So I think you're talking to something that maybe I can share
some thoughts on. I, I have some clients who think
that if they heal, then they're never going to get upset.
And it's like, no, that's, that's not the goal.
The goal is to live life and to be able to respond to it.
And our emotions inform us on what needs are present and how
(16:49):
to respond to the environment, right?
So you know, we're going to feelsad when there's lust, we're
going to feel angry when we feeltread upon.
So we get to have rich emotions.But there's something behind it,
right? And it's this inner groundedness
(17:09):
and this connection to our deeper wisdom that we can then,
say, help guide these feelings so that they can do what they
need to do, That I can hear themand then respond wisely.
I love that and I the word attunement comes to mind because
of so much of my work in my recovery program and therapy is
(17:30):
about self abandonment. And as a adoptive parent, we had
to go to parenting classes and we learned about attuning to the
child versus maybe what happenedin my experience was that I
attuned to my mother to make myself safe and so I abandoned
my needs. And so I'm hearing you that to
(17:51):
be attuned with oneself, to not abandon oneself.
And then these stuffies like as we are able to start knowing
that part of us through that work and then integrating it and
trusting it, trusting its voice,like hearing it and trusting it.
I like the way you said it. Why did I need to rephrase it?
(18:11):
I don't think you're I'm putting.
It into my eyesing validating. I yeah, that's my active
listening. There you go.
But parts to me often are, are spicy.
They, they're, they're big, right?
That so shame can be big and youknow, anger can be big and
sadness can be big And those, you know, you've mentioned the
(18:33):
inner child, that small place can be big.
So learning how to say hi, talk to me, tell me, tell me what you
need, tell me what you sense. Tell me what wisdom I need to
hear from you. And then have another place
where you go and say, how can I show up for that?
Yes, from this like centered wisdom place.
(18:56):
That to me is, is what's super yummy and what I've learned
through. So I'm now certified in
psychedelic work as well. That's awesome.
You know, I'm a big proponent ofpsychedelic therapy.
Congratulations and thank you. I'm, I'm happy for your clients
as well. Well.
Thank you. But what I've, I've discovered
in this is that there's also a really deep, deep wisdom that I
(19:20):
feel like is timeless. And so as I've done that work,
I've now learned another deeper layer of I'll be sitting with a
client and I'll just take a moment.
And because I know that like, fear screams, but wisdom
whispers. So if I take that moment and say
what's here, I get messages thatI couldn't explain.
(19:43):
But all of a sudden it's like I'll ask a question or I'll say,
could we try this? And it was just right.
So it that's what I hope for people as well, is that they can
find their own inner wisdom, learn how to be friends with
their emotions and their experiences, and then figure out
how to show up wisely. That's my hope.
(20:03):
I love that. I love that goal.
I am working on that in my program.
I sound like Stuart Smalley on Saturday Night Live.
I don't know if you know the character I.
Do. Like that character I do too is
my favorite and I love that movie.
Stuart saves his family, I thinkit's called.
It's a very fun movie. It's only.
Haven't seen it. OK I recommend it.
(20:23):
It only has two star rating but I loved it.
I loved it. And anyway, I am in a program,
but the one of the goals is to become an actor rather than a
reactor. And I do have takeovers quite
often from Virginia Vengeance. So yeah, I'm working on it
still. And, and it is.
(20:45):
It's one of those tricky things too, because she feels so
righteous, you know, like her rage feels very like this has to
happen. And I'm not even sure to this
day. I've had a couple of instances
where I have raged on the stage and I will not be asked back to
the Snowmass Comedy Festival did.
You have a rage fest there. I did I it turned it into a rage
(21:06):
fest. It was the Late Show.
No, I would have loved. It's probably on video
somewhere. It wasn't pretty, but I mean
there were a lot of variables leading up to it that I
understand. But two of them that I really
now learned I cannot mix 20 milligrams of Vyvanse with
tequila. OK, that's.
(21:26):
All right, these are those wisdoms we gain along the way.
That's what this was for, was toteach me.
Because I call it my ADHD medication Vyvanse.
I call it a shame and doubt blocker.
Like I don't have any shame or doubt.
I feel so clear on it so. Proliferating and terrifying at
(21:47):
the same time. And then imagine with just a
little extra like a tequila. And I do believe there was also
a Kentucky mule that was had andat altitude, OK, a lot of.
Variables. You were doomed.
Yeah, you were doomed. Oh no, and I don't know.
So here I look back on this and I got to say, I got to say I do
believe. I do believe it's for the
highest good, even though I'm not going to be asked back.
(22:08):
I was warning people about this man that was on stage, who was,
I perceived him to be not only misogynistic, but I perceived
him to be dangerous sociopath. And I was warning all the women
in this bar. It didn't matter that the show
was happening. I was so a warrior.
Yeah, she's a warrior. She's a warrior.
(22:30):
And she is like my therapist is trying to reframe her from
Virginia vengeance to Virginia the valiant, you know.
But I will say this, I don't know if I could have been more
effective. Although women, there were a few
women that came up to me and said I understand.
Oh, I'm glad people could show up for you in that moment.
Yeah, I'm serious, right? To like, know your good
(22:51):
intentions and. Yeah, and one of the audience
members, she had seen me at the earlier show where I was talking
about my codependency. And then she came up to me and
she goes, well, you know how when you're breaking out of
being a codependent and you're done being a people pleaser,
people are not pleased. That's what she let me know that
(23:12):
and I thought. Lovely way to frame that.
But I so, but I was willing to not please people and I was
willing to burn, I guess a bridge.
I don't know. There might have been a more
effective way, I'm not sure. But it's what it was.
It is what it is. It's done maybe still for the
highest good. I I'm trying to trust, trust my
path. I would not like to do it too
often. Well, but I, I think I, I mean,
(23:34):
I hear what you're saying and there there's benefits and costs
to when Virginia comes out, yes,but I'm also hearing, you know,
when we first start hearing those voices that they are
messy, you know, and that's partof us building a relationship
again, is how do I, how do I hold this energy and, and how do
(23:54):
I make room for you? And it usually is.
Yeah, coming out. Especially with alcohol, I
suppose. But anyway, I don't know why I
was bringing that up, but I, I guess because especially with
rage, I think there is a fear sometimes that, oh, if we touch
(24:15):
into this, it's going to be likeso powerful, like it feels
dangerous or destructive or, youknow, I don't know, like
toddlers they say are like little Shivas, you know, but I
think as a toddler, I wasn't allowed to be a little Shiva.
So she never got to like, have her day.
(24:36):
Have her day, you know, it's this may end up being ATMI, but
I, I have a general attitude towards emotions, which is
however we're going to hold themand cope with them.
The goal is to not have a lot ofcleanup at the end, right?
So like, if we however we cope, can the net be positive, right,
(25:00):
All right. And so when I was really getting
in tune with some anger, what I learned is the bathtub is
fantastic because it's a naturalnest, and it's really hard to
yell at people when you're wet and naked, right?
So he was like, it kind of created this container.
And then I could literally Stew in my own juices and just get so
mad. And I'd be cursing in there, and
(25:21):
I'd be, you know, ranting. And then over time, the emotion
would kind of begin to calm down.
And then I started having other thoughts, like is there any
chance the other person might have a good point?
Yes, is. There any chance that you know,
being a therapist for X amount of years that they may not know
those things, right? I'm thinking about like my
(25:44):
beautiful daughter and it's like, am I expecting her to be
27 years older than she is, right?
Like I'm meeting her where she'sat.
So it was a beautiful place to get angry and also a great place
to have a lot of humility at theend, right?
To just seem like. Yeah, this humility.
This that certainty thing might be a little running away with
(26:06):
you, so yeah, yeah, I. Have thought recently, well, it
gets kind of messed with in withmy inner critical parent, which
is a, you know, very shaming part of me that shames and
offloads a lot of self hate and shame when you do this in the
bathtub. I was just you just made me
think of the pool 'cause I I have gone underwater and
(26:27):
screamed underwater. So in the bathtub, do you do you
kind of go underwater if. I need to I can do whatever I
want because. That that really would buffer
the sound, wouldn't it? To be underwater?
I don't know it. It does, but you must know about
me that I'm not a buffer. So I have a a big martial arts
bat in my office and sometimes people need to scream lots of
(26:49):
things. And so we hit pillows and let
those big feelings happen. So is your.
Office set up in a way that you can be super loud in there
without the office mates coming to you saying hey we got a
problem. I am so gifted.
So on one side is bathrooms, on the other side is therapists
that I don't think are ever there.
And I'm on the top floor. So I just say, you know what
(27:12):
we're it's also a building that has a lot of therapists.
So I figure, you know what, let's just do this thing.
OK, so. I just was wondering because I
know in the past with type of therapy I covered my face with
pillow to scream so loud becauseI was worried about bothering
other people. But then that's that part of me,
that's you know. Yeah, I wait.
Wait till you have a microphone and and there's a there's a
(27:33):
Comedy Festival. Exactly.
There you go. Yeah.
Oh, but I've, I've had clients, you know, when it feels right,
right. It's not scripted, but it's
like, what do you need to have come out of you?
And it doesn't matter what wordsare said, it doesn't matter how
loud, it's just how can you haveroom for your voice so.
(27:55):
I love this. I try to make room for that, you
know. I I am appreciating that, yeah.
And not to, but like, let it go.And then in your experience,
have you found that there's a satisfaction afterwards?
I mean, because the fear I'm having is like, oh, is that
going to make me want to rage more?
Or, you know, I think. I think one of the things that's
(28:19):
really significant to name is that it's one thing to do it by
yourself, it's another to have it witnessed.
And so when someone gets big andI'm right there with them and
they're seeing, wait, you're nottelling me to be quiet, You're
not reenacting my mom telling methat I can't be angry like
you're giving me room. There's just something really
(28:40):
pure about it. And I hold the space, I create
the container and I have ways ofsaying, oh, let's channel that
this way or let's let's make sure it has this right so that
at the end they know I'm safe. I can go big and still be OK.
And then I make sure they have asoft landing, so.
(29:02):
And not be abandoned. And not be abandoned.
Abandoned. Yeah, that's such a gift to
people. I think so.
And, and I should mention for your listeners that you know it,
you don't have to get big. So some people that's what they
feel, that's what they need and other people it's quiet and it's
(29:22):
might be more mental or might bemore body or whatever.
So it's, I don't want anybody tothink that the only way to heal
is by being loud. There's so many things that we
can do. So this is just one particular
option, the toolbox of options so.
I love that. I love the toolbox of options,
you know that. And so in my trauma therapy and
(29:45):
different styles, I mean, yeah, I'm one of those that's like I
it's hard to imagine not having a therapist.
I got to say, I really find it'ssuch a special relationship,
especially a trusted, you know, when you've built a
relationship. And I have had three long term
therapists so far. Like I feel like the first one
was seven or eight years and then I think again and then now
(30:08):
I think I'm a few years in and it's all different.
The person I'm with now, she used to, I met her doing
psychedelic therapy and then it was so transformative and
bonding. And I did the first time it was
MDMA therapy, which was profoundto open my heart to myself.
(30:29):
I had never done that particulardrug ever.
And that's what she said, I wantyou to try this because I want
you to open your heart to yourself 1st.
And anyway, what is my point here?
Well, you're. Talking about a long, long term
therapist. So you'd said?
Yeah, and different modalities. And I was, I think I was leading
(30:49):
into the psychedelic because even though I had done EMDR and
brain spotting, there was something I couldn't get to.
Everything in my life made senseafterwards.
That's all I can say. Yeah.
Everything like needing to be heard, you know, and feeling
like I might die if I'm not hurt.
And now I'm like, OK. But I was curious for you, do
(31:10):
you identify as the wounded healer?
Like did you come from a place where you had to heal yourself
first or simultaneously? Like my podcast is I'm still
healing myself with it, sort of Co healing.
Yes, I do think I'm a. I'm a wounded healer, but I
would also say I feel like all of us, if we're human beings
(31:32):
going through this messy world, that we're going to have some
trauma. It just is right you.
Haven't met anyone that doesn't.No, but I'm at a place in life
now where a lot of like those wounds are, are quiet.
And So what I find is that I just keep experiencing new
things with different people andgetting to see how does that
(31:54):
inform my world? How does that broaden?
You know, how are you challenging me?
Like what are you needing me to know about you?
And how can I show up for you? Right.
It's it's, I don't want to say like I've arrived.
I don't feel that way but I justfeel like my stuff isn't loud I
think is how I would say it. Okay, and I feel.
(32:15):
Cuz it doesn't need to be loud. It can feel heard without being
loud. Yeah, you're listening to the
whisper of the wisdom. I am trying to listen to all of
it, Yeah, and now. That you're recently, I'm
thinking recently got certified with psychedelics June and I was
curious as part of that we experienced, I mean a lot of
(32:36):
folks do go through it yourself.Did you, did you go through some
or would you be comfortable talking about, I'm happy to
having psychedelic therapy yourself or in the training if
anything shifted for you or maybe This is why it's your next
level of like access Because we were talking about spirituality
and some of the synchronicities and I was just curious if this
(32:56):
is part of your personal growth.Sure.
Well, I kind of like you. I had done a lot of EMDR, I have
done a lot of therapy and there were just some things that were
still there and really, really persistent and felt beyond my
capacity. And so I, I had a client who
(33:17):
actually introduced me to the whole psychedelic world was
sending me like academic papers and stuff like you have to read
this, you should do this. You should get psychic, you know
you should get certified. As Stuart Smalley would say,
they were shooting all over you there.
You go there you go. I was being shoot on.
So I, I ended up saying, well, let me see what happens.
(33:37):
And so I, I worked with MDMA myself twice and some things
really, really shifted and got quiet.
But the things I needed that I went to it for like went into
the medicine with, weren't touched yet.
So then when I worked with a different medicine, it, it
(33:58):
shifted things dramatically. And so that's when it was like
this, this feels right. And I just looked at my
beautiful humans that I work with and could see there's some
of you that we can't touch. Whatever it is.
Yeah, we're not get into. It those defense mechanisms are
so powerful sometimes. The protection.
(34:19):
So. So to me, this was like, if
there's a way I can be more educated more, have more tools
to see how I can support your healing, That was the whole
purpose behind this. Yeah.
And so I'm just grateful to me, it's not for everybody, but it's
nice to have EMDR, it's nice to have the psychedelic work, it's
(34:42):
nice to have the gestalt work. So creates hopefully a nice way
to work with whatever people arebringing to me.
A well-rounded offering. I do try Yeah, yes.
And I'm guessing maybe some gifts that came for you
personally through it through isn't that cool how sometimes,
you know, I, I, I worked for a number of years as a registered
(35:03):
nurse and sometimes the, you know, the patient gives you
these gifts sometimes and it's really cool to be in that space
of receiving occasionally. Not that we go into it for that,
but it's like a secondary gain or whatever.
I guess it's like, wow, that's and you know, even in my
recovery work where I'm sponsoring somebody, but then
I'm like, wow, this person just blew my mind.
(35:24):
Like I'm thinking I don't have whatever bandwidth to sponsor
somebody and then they give me this amazing gift, you know, of
sharing an insight they had. It's so cool.
Well, I'm kind of addicted to therapy because and why I say
that is because I get to work with these beautiful people who
are willing to be vulnerable andand we get to have real
(35:46):
conversations, reach deep places.
And there's nothing like it, right?
You know, it's just nothing. So yeah, I just, I just feel so
blessed by that. And you're right.
I get to learn from them. I remember when I was getting
supervised and then mentored, she would ask me.
So Tanya, what do you think? You have so many people with
(36:08):
self esteem issues. Message received.
Yeah, nothing like your own stuff staring you in the face to
keep you humble. Message received.
I love how you said that. Oh man, I'm yeah.
(36:28):
Oh, it's the 7:00 or yeah, whatever time it is. 7:00
tornado. It's just a warning every.
Well, how exciting. Yeah, it's this is a warning
system test. Oh, OK.
Maybe we can work that into the theme.
You know, it's this is only a test, this whole life thing,
right? It's just a test.
(36:49):
I don't know how. I mean, I, I am very, I mean, I
especially after doing some psychedelic therapies, I have, I
feel like remove some blocks to some access to some spirit
wisdom or spirit connection. And I am sort of looking at the
fact that my soul chose this mother.
My soul chose this life and these challenges.
(37:11):
And I maybe that's a way of me getting out of my victim energy.
But I'm just like. I think my next question is why
did I choose that? Well, you're definitely
highlighting that there are waysI can grow through my
experiences. I know yes, I had this mother
and how can I, how can I evolve from that and not be permanently
(37:32):
wounded by it? And that's it's a lot of work to
do that. So is this like a Weather
Service? Yeah, it's the, it's the tornado
warning system. They test it or the flood.
Warning, that's reassuring. Yes, it's how are you doing on
your trauma recovery exactly? Going to fight, fight, Freeze
fawn. You don't remember fawn.
(37:54):
What else is there? Fight, flight, Freeze, fawn.
Flight flag. What there's some new FS?
There's 7 total trauma responses.
Oh hang on, can this might be a good time to do it during the
tornado? There you go.
I'm really traumatized, OK, it's.
She's not done. She's not done.
She's not done. She just keeps.
(38:14):
We got to let her have her voice.
What part of us is that? She's the.
If you do IFS, this would be a firefighter.
OK, she yeah, she's the firefighter.
Morning, morning. Yeah.
Do you have a stuffy for a firefighter?
Well, I mean, firefighters come in many forms, I know.
(38:35):
But I'm curious what form your firefighter?
Would what form would my firefighter be?
So firefighters can come in terms of like shutting down?
That's that can be a firefighter.
People who go and drink can be afighter.
So like one of those fire blankets, you know, ones that
they're on reels. Lately, I've been seeing the
fire blankets. There you go in my I must have
(38:58):
paused on that ad long enough that I get to see a lot of those
now. Algorithm, yeah.
Yep. So anyway, you were asking me
about the trauma types. Yes, OK.
The trauma types, this is, I didn't know there were seven.
There's 7. There's 7.
OK, fight. Fight Virginia Vengeance.
Fight. Yep, light freeze, fawn.
(39:23):
That's all I know so far. So do you mind if I kind of put
this in a story contact? Oh, yeah, I'll, I'll stop
talking. No, no, you don't.
I was trying to. I I didn't know what you were
looking. At that's not what I'm talking.
About. I thought I was supposed to
guess. Well, you were, you were doing
great. I didn't want to interrupt you.
I'm like you're. You're shining.
Here it's beautiful off is that one.
So so maybe it will be from thisthat's the fight will be.
(39:47):
So you have you have flight is first because if we want can
leave the situation, we want to,right?
And then if I can't, then I'll fight and then, well, that's not
going to work. So I'm going to play dead
because maybe the predator will lose interest and go away,
right? So that's the freeze, right?
And then sometimes we can't go anywhere.
(40:08):
And so then we hit fright level.So this is like the whole body
is kind of on, yeah, rigid fright, fright.
OK. And so then we go into flag.
And that's when I can escape this.
I think I may have to leave my body so I can preserve part of
my ego no matter what might happen to me physically.
(40:31):
And so that's when we start seeing dissociation, OK, And
then into faint is when the bodyis going to fall to the floor,
thinks it may have been poisoned.
So we get the heart and the and the head even.
So blood flows evenly and we tend to throw up and that's
getting rid of the toxin, right?So think of people who are like
(40:55):
trapped in really, really awful situations.
They're they're the ones who aregoing to go all that way
through, right? Most of us are hanging out in
the fight right freeze area. What you're highlighting is
there's another one which is fawn, and that's for specific
situations where it makes more sense to my system to please
(41:18):
that which is dangerous because I'll be less likely to be, you
know, traumatized or wounded. So I will please you and that
I'll be in your good graces and those are tend to be in
situations where the situation'schronic.
Yeah, I was going to say. Staying with mom who you with
all the time. And that's where that
codependency can be birthed. And then our I just saw some
(41:42):
something, I don't know what I was watching about a girl that
was kidnapped and she fond her kidnapper and was able to get
free because of it, made herselfsafe and also gained his trust
in some way. Anyway, it was fascinating to me
that she thought to do that. I knew to do that.
(42:02):
Maybe that's just part of our instinct system.
Well, it, that's just it. It's the whole thing is about
survival. So how do I help myself survive
in this? And so whatever we need to do,
you know, yeah, we're going to do it.
And so that's your work is helping us to know what what
survival, when is it time to laythese down?
(42:24):
If we're in a chronic state of codependency or a chronic state
of fawning? And when is it like trying to
learn it's a safe place and we can lay this down now and we're
not a helpless child or whatever, you know, trying to
step into our adult self and ourempowered wisdom.
I mean, I think what you're highlighting is that that's part
(42:45):
of the question is, hey, for this protection, is it safe
enough to like to rest? Because we we still want these
protections in place if we need them, but maybe we don't need
them as much maybe but they, butthey have to know it's safe
enough to let go, right? They have to make sure that so
it takes time. Yeah, for that it sure does.
(43:09):
My experience. Yeah.
Well, especially like with complex PTSD, and I mean, I, you
know, my, my therapist who does,who did brain spotting, you
know, my son had an acute event of being attacked by a man here
in Boulder as a, as a boy, as a kid, you know, like choked in
the street. And, but she was able to help
(43:29):
clear that in just a one or two sessions because of proximity to
it. It was just one isolated
incident. Whereas if you've had a long
childhood, which, which they are, then that does take time,
doesn't it? To, to let you know, like it.
We aren't there now and it's hard to even know.
Like I hear this all time in meetings, especially with
(43:51):
codependency of people like who am I?
Like who is my authentic self? We're so over identified with
that pleaser part of us, that fawning part or whatever you
call it. Well, and part of fawning is
that I'm so focused on the otherperson that I don't get to have
needs and wants. So I have to relearn them.
I have to learn it's OK to have them and then the space to
(44:15):
discover. And that's that's hard.
Yeah. So it's not a problem to be in
therapy for years, right? Like my?
Siblings, they'll look at me andgo, well, I don't want to be in
therapy for years. Right, I'm going to be ornery.
I want to say that, and I want you to say it as a statement
instead of a question. Yeah, okay.
(44:38):
OK, I love that you just said that because I have these
codependent necklaces, you know,and it says I honor myself and
on the back if you don't mind, right.
And then, and then if you want to be, you know, in your power,
you read the back first. If you don't mind, I'll honor
myself. And so I hear what you're
saying. I think it is that.
OK, So let me try and say that as a statement.
(45:01):
I appreciate my willingness to let go of my lifelong survival
traits by staying in therapy foryears until I get it.
Was that better? Well, I I was that not what we
were going. For Well, it's OK.
So what what you're doing is you're coming to me and you're
(45:23):
saying, is this OK? Yeah.
And so I'm saying I'm not the one to answer that.
So instead, how about if you sayyou turn it into a statement and
try it on and it's either going to be wrong or it's going to be
right. So you're going to say it's OK
to be in therapy for years? Well, that doesn't feel right or
Yeah. So what's true for you?
(45:44):
So I would say turn that into a statement and try it on.
Yeah. That is true for me.
It's OK to be in therapy for years, Yeah.
Yeah, you get to own that. Thank you.
Yeah. I'm very selfish with my
podcast. I get to heal myself, you know,
(46:04):
I think you said. That at the start, that that's
part of what this is. For I hope people, I do hear
from folks that get a little nugget here and there.
So. And I really do believe in the
power of the the the speaker andthe witness and like they are
holding space and I'm sending itback.
(46:25):
Like there, it's going back and forth.
Yeah, you know. Oh yeah.
It's kind of living what we're talking about, which is so fun,
yeah. Is there any anything else you
feel like sharing about psychedelic therapy, therapy,
play, comedy, traumedy, Any partof you that wants to be heard?
(46:46):
I think being is nice, we can just be with it for a little
bit. We can, Yeah, maybe.
Let's see. Let's see where this goes.
So I in January when, Well, actually in November, when the
news came out about how the election transpired, I of course
(47:07):
had my own personal response andI got a text from a former
client who said my women's groupwants you to come and talk to us
about how to cope with this. Oh, OK.
So I already have to have everything clean for myself.
And, and so luckily I, I spaced it out a bit until January, but
went and spoke to these women. And in the meantime, I really
(47:31):
tried to borrow from, there's a wonderful Buddhist scholar who's
here in Boulder, actually Pima Chodoran.
And I don't think I'm saying herlast name right, but went to
also like a, a Jewish rabbi and Viktor Frankel who did Man's
Search for Meaning. And so I was like, OK, what
wisdoms can we can we glean? And the one thing that just
(47:53):
spoke to me so much was we need to stay awake, right?
So to, no matter what's happening, we need to be able to
be present for it because that'sthe only way we'll have
responsibility. And so I just keep seeing all
these different ways where people are trying to avoid
(48:14):
including themselves, right? Like, I, I just don't want to
think about that. I want to talk about that.
I want to feel that. And it's like, I wonder how we
can show up and, and keep our head up, keep our center and
say, how do I show up in this moment?
And so I feel like as as we're now months into this, this
(48:37):
presidency, this experience, political landscape, you know,
that we keep showing up. And I hope as we do this
together in community, we can also do this together in our in
within ourselves. You know, just how do we stay
awake? And I think that's a big thing
I'd love for people to to keep being invited to do.
(49:00):
Thank you for that and I really appreciated how you combine the
word with response and ability. Not responsibility, but response
ability. That was interesting.
I hadn't, I've never heard that that way.
What is mine to do? What is my responsibility and
what is my responsibility? And I'm still asking that and I
(49:21):
have been dissociating a lot with my phone and doom scrolling
and. And are there any insights that
come for you or that help you stay awake to tolerate and
titrate the pain? Because I feel a lot of pain and
agitation and it's hard to tolerate it.
(49:43):
And so is there any? I hear the naked bath could be
helpful. I'm feeling like diving into the
pool and yeah, but is there? I mean, I guess finding like
minds, finding community. I don't know, I'm just guessing.
All these sound great to me. I also feel like I'm trying to
approach this as how am I going to be invited to grow through
(50:07):
this? Not to, you know, around it.
Not that I can't or whatever, but you know, how do I see this
as a moment to seize? How, where will I be called?
How will I be called? What in me needs expression?
And, and to know that we don't always get to grow when it's
comfortable, you know, hardly ever, yeah.
(50:29):
Honestly, I know it's so I've been asking higher power.
May I please learn from delight.I I will stay awake.
I will follow that frequency andI am intermittently doing that.
But I I just I I had another guest who cut she she's a she's
a therapist. She's a psychiatrist.
She was laughing like, good luckwith that.
Yeah, exactly. But I mean, I think it's I think
(50:53):
it's OK to state that as a request.
And I've learned a lot from suffering.
Thank you. I do believe in post traumatic
gifts and growths. And I do feel like one of my
gifts is, you know, bringing laughter to people and raising
the frequency and acknowledging some of these things in a way
that's tolerable with humor. But also, may I please learn
from delight exactly. And not become that which we are
(51:19):
disgusted by. Because I have had that in
relationships with sociopaths. I when you try to outthink them,
outplay them, you start, they start 3D printing in your own
brain and it's just like, Oh, no, I don't want to become them
to win at their game. Yeah, because sometimes I get
mad at the Democrats for not like, look what they're doing.
(51:42):
They're breaking all the rules. We should break the rules.
You know, I mean, and I'm not a Democrat.
I just want to say I'm a registered independent.
I'm way over far. I'm farther over.
I was Green Party. I was.
But anyway, I know as a therapist, I know you you, you
try to be a, a neutral. But I think that there are some
things being revealed that that have we've been on a trajectory
(52:05):
for decades that has not been course corrected, you know, and
so we may need to see some things and face some things in
order to get on a healthier path.
And so, you know, we usually don't like to grow.
We usually don't want to sign upfor it.
It's it's kind of sometimes thrust upon us.
(52:27):
So whatever side of the aisle you're on, this is a chance to
grow. Yeah, and look within and how do
you want to show up when it's hard?
Because that's what I'm trying to figure out is what does
loving mean when it's hard? I can love when it's easy.
I know, right. And so, but I don't know what
that means that. Well, I some, I have some good
(52:49):
ideas, but you know, it doesn't mean enabling bad behavior.
It doesn't mean just just being sweet all the time.
That's not love to me, right? Right.
So. We're not going to play.
We don't have to play nice. Yeah, that's not what you're
saying. You're, you're saying it's OK to
love and hold folks accountable and whatever it is you're called
(53:10):
to do. I guess.
I mean, everybody has a different gift to bring or a
different calling and the whole othering thing just can get it.
I just know I was writing something yesterday or whatever,
it doesn't matter when, but it was basically about it's just
othering leads to hate, leads towars.
I don't know. Oh.
Yeah, in Gestalt we have a a wonderful human who was back in
(53:35):
like 1910 ish era called Boober.And he came up with some
different ways people can interact.
And one of them, he said, is an I thou.
And the I thou moment is that I see your humanity.
I see that you are, you are, youknow, with me, right?
Even so, I can be mad at you andI can struggle with you, but
(54:00):
that vowelness that that humanity remains intact.
And then he highlighted another kind of interaction, which is an
I it. And that's what you're talking
about, where I can project onto you.
I can treat you less than. And that's when things get
dangerous because we may have feelings, but then we can also
(54:22):
give ourselves a lot of permission to misbehave.
So to me, if we can show up in these moments with that I thou
heart, that's what we need, no matter, you know, whether we
agree or disagree. How do we never I hit anyone?
Wow. Thank you.
I think that's a good place to pause.
(54:43):
Yeah. Feel good.
Yeah, it feels really good. I'm glad you checked in and
brought that up at the meeting. How can people reach you if they
want to reach out for therapy? Or are you open to having
people? I can put in the show notes a
link to your website or it might.
Be great. And I have a a monthly
(55:04):
newsletter I have so people are welcome to also say, hey, here's
a topic I'd love to know more about because usually what I
write about is what I keep seeing either in my office or
seeing in the world. So yeah, I'd love for people to
to reach out. My practice is called Side by
Side counselling. Side by side.
Yes, exactly. Counseling.
(55:25):
And that's all. One word.
If they go to the website, they go.
To the website, so it's SBS counseling is my web address,
but the the name of my practice is Side by Side counseling.
Thank you, Tanya. Tanya Henderson, thank you so
much. It's been a pleasure.
Appreciate you. I want to thank my guests, Tanya
(55:46):
Henderson, check out Tanya's website, give her feedback for
her newsletter at SBS Counseling.
That's side by side counseling.com.
I want to thank my son, Nathaniel Norton for putting
together the music loop for Traumedy.
And I want to thank you, the listener for witnessing this,
giving feedback, sharing the vibe, raising the frequency
(56:08):
together. We're going to get through
things. We are doing it.
You know we are. We're going to get through it.
Just keep going through it, keepbreathing.
Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I'm going to
work on these things we talked about on this episode about not
othering, not I it. Oh, it's so hard for me.
(56:30):
I want to I it some people. OK, I got to keep working on
that. All I know is we're all doing
our best. Let's keep doing it.
Let's keep loving each other andlaughing when we can remember.
No matter what, keep laughing.
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