S3 E27 - Psychiatrist Neill Epperson, MD - The Fantastic Female Brain

S3 E27 - Neill Epperson, MD - The Fantastic Female Brain - Dr. Epperson is a Psychiatrist and Chair of the Department of Psychiatry at CU Anschutz Medical Campus and she is one of the scientist researchers presenting at Headstrong Comedy along with Nancy Norton and other comedians and scientists. 4 female Scientist + 4 Female Comedians = 1 fun and empowering night. Highlighting the incredibly helpful breakthroughs gained through medical research about the changes in the female brain through the lifespan, reproductive cycles through menopause and why we need to continue research to improve people's lives.

Bold comedians and real-deal scientists join forces to tackle misconceptions about women’s health and fight for the funding it deserves.

Find tickets here: https://www.brainfestdenver.com/

Reach out to Nancy: https://www.nancynorton.tv/

Connect with Dr. Neill Epperson https://som.cuanschutz.edu/Profiles/Faculty/Profile/28543

Make a donation: https://www.ucdenver.edu/offices/office-of-advancement/home

Call your Representative about issues with 5 Calls app:

https://5calls.org/

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
You're listening to Traumedy, the podcast that helps you take
your pain and play with it. I'm Nancy Norton.
I am a comedian, former nurse, keynote speaker about the power
of humor, why we need it, how ithelps us.
And this is a special week featuring a scientist.
And I think it's very important under this current

(00:25):
administration that we do all that we can to help sustain
medical research. And our guest this week is part
of a big event at the Bug Theater in Denver.
It's called Headstrong Comedy Through Brain Fest, denver.com.
And this episode I learned so much that I did not know about

(00:48):
female brains. But one of the things that when
I did my menopause surgical menopause study where women were
enrolling in my study for executive functioning problems,
they said to me, and it didn't matter because I enrolled people
from all over the country. And they said to me that they
had been to their primary care doc multiple times.
And they said we just don't knowwhat to do.

(01:09):
And I felt really sad. That's why I'm doing the study.
And to a tee, all the women, I mean, some of them have been
suffering five years, 10 years, 15 years.
They said to me, thank you for doing this research.
It's 4 scientists, 4 comedians. September 5th at the Bug
Theater. We need this information.
Look in the show notes, you can find tickets.

(01:31):
It's going to be a great night to come together with like minds
and laugh, but also learn and also find ways to take action.
So very important. And thank you for tuning in.
And again, thank you for being alistener and part of the healing
journey that we're all on. That's what Traumedy is all

(01:51):
about. So we we need each other.
So thank you for being a listener and I know it makes a
difference just having you out there.
Let me know if you'd like to be a guest on Traumedy.
If you have any questions, you can always reach out to me
through my website, nancynorton.tv.
That's nancynorton.tv. Like television.
Let me know how I can help. All right, let's get going.
Enjoy this episode. Welcome to Trauma D My guest

(02:20):
this week is a psychiatrist. She is the chair of the
Department of Psychiatry at CU and shoots.
Please welcome Doctor Neil Epperson.
Is that correct? We say we say CU Colorado
University and shoots instead. Of saying the University of
Colorado, that's the whole thinghere in the Colorado, but we all
call it CU instead of UC. You know it has something to do

(02:43):
with sports. I believe that I I, I.
You know, my husband explains this kind of stuff to me and it
goes in one ear out of the otherand I just go, OK, see you,
whatever. You know, I've been here for
seven years as the chair of the department and it's a great
department. I give a shout out to all my
people. I love my department.

(03:04):
Some of the most mission driven faculty members, staff members
and trainees you'd ever want to meet.
All there to help the mental health of Colorado.
This is beautiful. I got to tell you all.
I downloaded your CV and I was just like getting sweaty palms
like this woman is a genius. I'm interviewing a genius.
Hardly. Hardly.

(03:26):
Well, I don't know what the qualification, you know, I don't
know where the line is, but I mean, 86 publications reading
through them just like, whoa, this, this woman is dedicated, I
mean, to do that much research. Well, you have to, I mean,
that's part of our job. And so it's not like I do this,
you know, and I have another dayjob.
I mean, I mean, seriously, before I became chair of the

(03:48):
department, I was a physician scientist.
So my job was to try and really help translate, do research and
also do research that I think isgoing to help my patients.
And so I basically, I, that's myjob.
So of course, you know, I, over the years, you know, you accrue
publications and, you know, since I've been here at CU, I've

(04:11):
been able to continue that work mainly through working with a
lot of junior people in my lab who are doing such amazing work
in their own right. And, and then they write the
papers and I help them. And so it's great.
It's a, it's AI scratch their back, they scratch mine.
And so we can all, you know, to get our publications out there.
It doesn't, you know, there are a lot of people that work on

(04:31):
these things, so it's not just me.
I, I, you're very humble. I, I, and I do know that's true
that it, it takes a village to write a research paper because
just the little bit of citationsthat I've done in my work as an
RN and as a, a person who got certified in therapeutic humor,
you know, we just read a lot of these peer reviewed studies and
I'm, I don't even understand it.I don't even understand how it
all works but I've I've tried tofake it fake like I understand

(04:57):
research and so well. It takes a village to.
Do the research too. That's.
What I'm saying, yeah. And then but it takes passion
and that's the thing when I first met you.
So we enter, we met each other on a Zoom call because we're
getting ready for a show at the Bug Theatre September 5th.
And this is what we really want people to know about because I
mean, I want them to know there's just so much that you

(05:19):
have to offer. But we are the the thing that's
coming up September 5th in Denver, the Bug Theatre is
called. What is it called?
It's not. Headstrong women.
Yes, headstrong women. And it's 4 scientists.
You are one of the scientists. And then it's 4 comedians.
I'm one of the comedians. And so we're trying to find a

(05:40):
way to make it not just fun because we do want to make it
fun and funny, but we want to inform people, we want to
empower them. We want to help people take
action under the current administration.
I like to call it the dark Lord,but you know, but that's my
terminology. We, I just did a keynote for

(06:02):
research administrators. You know, this is the
International Society of Research Administrators.
And I, and they're just, I mean,they're kind of green.
They're just like every day, every day, every day the grants
are getting cut. I guess we're coming together to
help raise awareness around how important research.
Is that's true how how importantresearch is, how important
Women's Health is, and particularly how important

(06:25):
women's brain health is. And that, you know, a lot of the
themes that we're going to all sort of weave through the night
is, you know, women are not justsmall men.
Yes. You know whatever those songs
are where we're called Shorty. Hey, Shorty.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, get down Shorty.
And I'm like I can't get down that I I am like 5-10 so I don't

(06:46):
go that low but. I'm not touching that line.
I want to. I'm like, it's not headstrong
for that reason. Anyway, folks.
Oh, OK, now we're. Going there.
So there you go. I know I hang out in too many
comedy clubs and drink bourbon. I sip whiskey and talk dirty.
Where's my bourbon? I know.
Seriously, we're doing this in the afternoon.

(07:08):
We should have been. Doing it at.
Like 9:00 I do. Have some fresh mint.
We could try to make a mint, youknow what I mean?
Whatever that is. Mint Julep.
Yes, because you're Southern. That's Southern.
You know, we're, I know we're listen, I know we're going to
have a lot of back and forth andI'm interrupting you a little
bit here, but I, I, we're not just short men.
We're going to come back to that.
But right here, I just want to insert you are really grounded

(07:30):
in, you know, like you say, you're kind of like a country
girl. At heart, yes.
Well, I grew up in the country, yes, of North Carolina, and
worked in the tobacco fields every summer.
And one little known fact about me is when, because I didn't
come from a family of means, and, you know, my mother had

(07:51):
really terrible taste in clothesand she always bought me really
cheap clothes that I didn't like.
And so I figured out I have to work.
So I worked in tobacco in the summertime.
But then when I turned 16 and got my driver's license, I
could, you know, all through theschool year, you know, you can't
work in the fields because it's winter time and that kind of
thing. And I'm like, Oh my God, what am

(08:11):
I going to do to make money so that I can get the pair of
Levi's I want instead of these ugly jeans that my mother would
buy for me? I got my driver's license and
within a week I was driving one of those big long yellow school
buses full of elementary and middle school students.
Yeah. Ching I made seriously making

(08:35):
money, but who in the right mindwas a 16 year old who just got
their drivers license? Drive, not just a.
Car, but a big long yellow school bus full of children.
It's amazing. Seriously, who does that?
You are a born leader. I'm telling you.
The fact that you actually had the guts to go and say I'm going
to apply for that job and get it, and I bet you handled your

(08:57):
responsibility well. Am I?
Right. Well, nobody died, thank God,
and I had no injuries either, sothat was good.
You know, because those kids didn't have seatbelts and stuff,
so they could have flopped all over.
Because you have to understand, I was driving down some Back Rd.
swamps in North Carolina and there were bumps and pits.
I mean, when we're talking aboutpits in the road and I'm having

(09:17):
to steer this big school bus through all of that and these
kids are bouncing up and down inthe back.
And they're loving it. They're they're.
Loving it, but I'm sitting theregoing and I'm too young to even
think about that. I'm too young to even worry
about it, isn't. It interesting how I I think
about some things I took on his responsibility that I would not
take on today like I would well,you know, I have the divergent

(09:38):
eyes. I should never drive, probably
they shouldn't even drive a car.But I, I do have a lot of
angels. As you know, I'm very spiritual.
So I count on my driving Angels keep me safe and others.
I mean, I would like to get a self driving car.
I drive a 2008 Honda Element. You know, I would like to get
one of those that at least beepswhen people are on my side.
But you know, you ever think about that sometimes where you

(09:59):
take on responsibility before you know what you're doing, and
then you're like, wow, I can't believe I did that.
Yeah. You've done that.
Looks like according to your CVImean I I just honestly, it does
blow my mind that you all the roles that I saw.
I mean, you came here from Yale like you were a professor at
Yale. It looked like very soon out of
Med school. I don't know.

(10:20):
I try to remember the timeline. Well, that's not uncommon.
I mean, so I did my residency training at Yale in psychiatry.
And then I realized in my third year of residency that I really
didn't want to be a private practice child and adolescent
psychiatrist. And I was like, holy crap.
I came into psychiatry because Ithought I wanted to do this.
And I went to my psychoanalytic supervisor, this wonderful

(10:43):
gentleman named Wayne Downey. And I said Doctor Downey, I said
I think I failed. And he said, why would you say
you failed? I said, well, because I came
into psychiatry to be this private practice child and
adolescent psychiatrist. And I said I think I'd rather
stick a needle in my eye. And the.
Truth is, I. Think he was relieved because I

(11:04):
was not very good with the wholepsychodynamic stuff.
I just didn't, I mean it just I didn't get it.
It didn't understand it very well.
I was attracted to it, but it was kind of like, you know, I
think I am. I really want to understand why
people do what they do from a biological perspective.
And he told me, he said, Neil, Isaid you haven't failed.
You just need to change your egoideal.

(11:27):
Oh, interesting. So.
So that's what I did. And about that time I met a
patient that had postpartum depression.
And I was saying to you before the patients can be our muses.
And so I've always treated patients.
I mean, I have and I really value working with people.
I just couldn't do it day in andday out.
I needed, I needed research. I really, I, it's just, that's

(11:50):
my jam. But this patient really helped
me start to think about the effects of hormones on the brain
because she was experiencing newonset postpartum depression and
these obsessional thoughts that were really upsetting to her.
And I was like, Oh my gosh, how does this happen that, you know,

(12:10):
somebody who's never had depression or obsessions and
compulsions all of a sudden in the postpartum period when
they're supposed to be able to feel comfortable taking care of
the baby, She was hiding from her children because they would
trigger her having these bad thoughts about them.
And so she said, bless her heart, we helped her.

(12:32):
But I also, and she got better, but I also started reading about
how hormones affect the brain, particularly in females when we
go through these reproductive shifts.
And I was like, Oh my God, this is fascinating.
Why didn't anybody ever talk to me about this in medical school?
And so I basically, it launched my career studying the effects

(12:53):
of hormones on the female brain.And I haven't looked back.
It's been 30 years and it has just been so rewarding.
And all along the way, all of myresearch, I would say patience
and my interactions with people and hearing their stories and,
and saying, why is this happening to this person?
Like, why did this person get depressed for the first time in

(13:13):
the menopause? Or why did this person start to
have cognitive problems when they had to have their ovaries
removed to decrease their risk of cancer?
I'm like, what's going on here? And those are the kinds of
questions that I've spent 30 years trying to to address so
that we can actually improve Women's Health.
Actually improve it. That's what I that's what's
coming up for me is like, and back to your groundedness from

(13:35):
your childhood of like, I mean, you're, I mean, when you're in
the field, working in a tobacco field, you're like, I mean,
you're a real person. You, you're not just doing this
as a theory, but not only that, it's like what I'm getting from
you and the passion that I love is that it's got to make a
difference. It's not just here to get a
paper to say I did this to some,some theory that you want to be

(13:58):
the one that found it. You want to help people and
apply this information. And also I'm just thinking about
my my own mother, as I told you on that zoom call, because it
actually the more I'm, I'm really in this forgiveness phase
with my mother and some of our relationship.
God bless you. God bless you it.
Helps that she has passed on. I got to be honest, she's no

(14:20):
longer a threat to me. But because that's.
True, you know, she had some tenant things, behaviors that
were were threatening, yes, and I and I also just want to say I
just want there. I bet there are there's someone
listening who has had postpartumthoughts, postpartum behaviors
that they are ashamed of. And I do believe, and I do

(14:41):
believe, I mean, this came to meduring psychedelic trauma
therapy and I don't know how much access you can trust from
pre verbal time, but I do believe my mother did things
that she was deeply bothered by and that she could never tell
anyone sure, because the shame and the stigma of mental health.

(15:02):
And then just think, I know there's some women listening who
have Well, there's no. Stigma for mental health?
There's stigma about mental illness.
We all want mental health. Oh good.
Point, Yeah, OK. Thanks for differentiating that,
Yeah. Because everybody wants to have
mental health, but but we don't want to talk about mental
illness. Yeah, in our own struggles and
and also just I mean, I bet there's so many women who had to

(15:23):
suffer in silence. They did and they self medicate.
But I just want to say I think this is a gift to people to know
like, hey, there's help for you.There's also to help people have
compassion for themselves. Well, absolutely.
I mean, I saw, I mean, I, I, my earlier career, I focused mostly
on perinatal mental health and working with women who, you

(15:44):
know, we're experiencing, you know, either like even post
traumatic stress after, you know, very traumatic delivery or
in a postpartum depression, postpartum OCD symptoms, anxiety
and what have you. And, you know, one of the things
that I would always say to them is, you know, if you're not
having at times, you know, a negative thought about your

(16:05):
child or even a hostile thought because you're exhausted, you
know, the bottom line is caring for another person.
You know, in all relationships, we have positive and negative
feelings. I think that women are, you
know, kind of assume maybe because we don't talk about it
enough and they've just drank the kool-aid that you're
supposed to be just in love withyour child.

(16:26):
And it's all supposed to be, youknow, hunky Dory.
And yes, you get tired, but God forbid that you would have a
hostile thought towards your child.
And the truth is, is that that is really very normal and
common, you know, just because you think.
Something and maybe healthy, yes, maybe healthy.
Allow the thoughts so it doesn'tbuild up like my mother's into a
rage. Yes, because I do believe, you

(16:48):
know, if you suppress that and then it comes out sideways, like
let yourself have those thoughtsand be mad.
And yes, you know. It's what you do with it that
matters, what you do with it exactly.
And so, you know, I know like I've, I've worked with people
who, you know, they, they have thought, Oh my God, you know, I
used to work on Wall Street and,you know, and I, you know, I'm

(17:10):
40 something years old having myfirst child.
And, you know, they come home and then they decide they're
going to stay at home with theirbaby and somehow they're going
to do it so much better than their own mother did.
And I and I look at them and I go.
What made you think you were going to enjoy this?
Seriously, what made you think that?
You know, and I said, you know, it's like when you're on Wall

(17:33):
Street and you finish a project or you, you know, you go and you
do a negotiation or you make somebody a lot of money or
something like that. At the end of the day, your
partner's going out. Let's go out and have a drink.
That was great. You know, your baby doesn't look
up after at you after you take it off the Ted and go.
Fantastic milk Mom, you know, high five.

(17:54):
Yeah, high 5. That was the best.
I don't know what you re eating but gosh bring it on you know
seriously. I mean.
So, so why would somebody who has experienced this for like
40, you know, their whole professional life, think the
staying home with an, with a baby that is like a little
vampirino that is just, you know, sucking you dry is going

(18:17):
to be so rewarding. I mean, seriously, I, I, I've
told many women you need to change your ego ideal because
what you thought was motherhood,it was some fantasyland sort of
like me, me, as you know, in private practice, I just, I
wouldn't have been good at it. It's just not what I would have
been good at. And I, and as a result of that,
because when I got recruited here to see you, a lot of the

(18:40):
people in the department went, Oh my God, she's such a
researcher. She's going to be only thing
she's going to care about is research.
And you know, it's a very clinical department and you
know, it provides a lot of clinical care.
And what they didn't know is that I have great respect for
people who can do things that I can't, you know?
And so if you're a really good clinician, wow, props to you

(19:02):
because I'm just not good at that, you know?
And you're able to celebrate other people's skills that you
don't have or whatever. Exactly.
Yeah. You're not all just tunnel
vision. One, no, absolutely not.
And so, you know, we've really grown the clinical services at
the the department tremendously because again, I mean, we're the
only academic Medical Center in the state over at CU and shoots.

(19:24):
And and so, you know, I really think of us as the the States
Department of Psychiatry and that we need to be part of our
mission has to be to really improve the mental health
landscape of all of Colorado. So we can't just sit in our
little ivory tower and take a few patients, you know, to help
train our residents. You know, we have to we have to

(19:44):
really think about caring for Coloradans.
And, you know, we can't treat everybody because, you know,
we're not that big, but we can do things at in leverage the
kinds of programs you can build in an academic center to help
the mental health care out in the community.
Well, so how do people come to you?
Like what? What Who is?

(20:04):
Who are your clients that come to the clinic?
Well, we have people who come tothe clinic in the traditional
way. But then of course, during the
pandemic, we wound up doing likeall telehealth.
And so now we still do. Probably about 70% of our cases
are done through telehealth, at least in some of our clinics.
Some of our clinics, we really need the patients to come and

(20:26):
see us more. You know, but can anybody access
to your services if they have the right whatever?
Insurance I just call about and we also take Medicaid and
Medicare and I just. Got on Medicare.
I don't want to brag, but. Oh, I know.
Am I pretty? Excited.
It's like winning the lottery. My last insurance bill was
$1100, so I'm I'm down to 300 something.

(20:46):
I don't know. Yes, that sounds awesome.
I know, I know. That's just a few years away.
From me that I'm going to be hopping on Medicare myself.
If it still exists under the Dark Lord.
OK, yes, I'm sorry, I got to stop saying that.
And I, I want to, I want to justsay right here that this is my,
I'm responsible for my own comments.
I mean, and, and the thing that we are doing together at, at Bug

(21:07):
Theatre on September 5th is I know that one of the things I
heard we were going to try and have a call to action.
Like, I don't know, like what, how do we, is there anything
that that people can do to help research or help to make sure
that we keep. I mean, I do have the five Calls
app on my phone, which I call mysenator and my representatives.
And I know I jumped from who comes into the clinic.

(21:29):
Well, let. Me finish that.
One, let me finish that. Let's bookmark.
So people can come to the clinicin the very traditional way,
call and you know, you know, give their entrance and what
have you. But we also do a lot of work.
We have a program called COMAP, Colorado Mental Health Access
Program. And that because if you think

(21:49):
about it, uncomplicated depression and anxiety, about
maybe 75% of the people with that get treated by their
primary care docs and their primary care docs, you know,
also can do a lot. And in Colorado, you're not
going to have a psychiatrist outin the frontier area because
there's just not, I mean, maybe there's a few, but there's not

(22:10):
the population is not large enough to support having someone
with that particular specialty. So how do we get that specialty
out in the community? Well, first of all, while we can
support our primary care colleagues, so if they wind up
having cases that they feel likethey need to have a
psychiatrist, either a child psychiatrist or somebody who
works with pregnant and postpartum women, somebody who

(22:32):
works with elderly or people with addiction, they can call
COMAP in our Colorado Access program at the campus and they
will be able to talk to a psychiatrist that day and the
psychiatrist will have expertiseto help them think through a
case. So that's one of the ways in
which we can extend our servicesout into the community because

(22:55):
we can't put a psychiatrist everywhere.
It's just not going to happen. But they have you as a resource
and they can feel confident whenI make this prescription for
like, for example. I mean, I'm just going to give
you an example because I use my podcast selfishly.
You know, I, I just realized after my son got diagnosed with
ADHD and I don't know, I was like, oh, I see myself.
Even though he's adopted, we have so much in common.

(23:16):
It's amazing. My primary care, She's like,
you're too. I don't feel comfortable with
your age going on a stimulant, you know, because of the risk of
stroke or something like that. But I did find a psychiatrist
who would prescribe some Vyvanseand I've been so happy with it.
But then he moved out of state. So now I'm like, should I go and
get another prescription? Why not?

(23:38):
But at 65 I have low blood pressure.
I don't know, I guess I know I also had to go off of birth
control pills which I was using for my post.
This was back about 10 years agowhen I was 55.
I was using birth control pills to manage my menopause symptoms,
which was irritability. And one time I did draw my fist
back, wanted to punch my young child and I was like, ah, I need

(24:01):
to get some help. You know, I was on the I just
want to say it was in cocked position.
I didn't go forward with it, although I did throw a wet
washcloth at him one time reallyhard and he will not let that
go. But anyway, yeah, all right.
That was all over the place. But I'm just saying, I just know
some things with age have been limiting for me.

(24:21):
Like for example, because I loved being on it was free birth
control pills, by the way, and Iwas just on those as a way after
as I was transitioning, yes. And a lot of women do use birth
control pills because, you know,you don't want to oops, baby at
the age of 4950. And you know, they're definitely
people who get pregnant in theirlate 40s and even possibly in

(24:44):
the early 50s, depending upon when they're going to go through
menopause. And so, you know, the average
age of menopause finishing menopause is around 52 in the
US, But it's a big range. Like I I was 47 when I went
through menopause. Kind of early.
Yes, exactly. You're precocious.
Oh well, I don't know. I was wondering, did I do
something to kill my ovaries early?

(25:05):
I mean, I was like. Well, did you start your period
early? I was.
No, I was. I was a late one.
I was a late 1. So you had a shorter window,
maybe, yes, some part of your whatever, but your body, my body
was like it was done, your body done.
You had other things to do, yes.My ovaries were like, you're
done. So I have gone.
I went off of birth control because I thought, oh, OK, and
I've been on this for a while, Let me go off.

(25:27):
And I started having hot flashes.
And so I'll call my GYN. And I said Wanda, I said, you'll
never know. I'm having these symptoms and I
said, sure, I just go back on it.
She goes, well, why don't you come in and see me?
So she drew my blood and she goes, honey, you're all the way
through menopause because your follicle stimulating hormone was
really high and I was going holyguacamole.

(25:48):
So I basically went on hormone therapy at 47 and I have loved
it. I have been lucky to be able to
continue it, but it's not for everybody and not everybody can
use hormone therapy. And so one of the things that I
have done as I've been working with people who are going
through menopause, either a natural menopause or surgical
menopause, which is predominantly my patient

(26:11):
population now, now that I'm an older woman, yes, I know I've
like I graduated into being a menopause expert versus a
perinatal expert. So in any case, or a menstrual
cycle expert because I was doingthat for a while too.
Well, I will. Say as a patient, I would much
rather see somebody who's had similar symptoms than not like

(26:32):
I'm, I am going to a new OBGYN. And I mean, obviously just the
GYN part, but I mean, they're like, would you want to see this
male? And I was like, I had, I go, I
will if it's trans man, I mean, if he's, has he ever had a
vagina? They're like, I don't think so.
So I said, no, I will. I want to see someone who's had
one. Just to understand, I have to
argue that I have had some very good male physicians and there's

(26:56):
some beautiful, lovely, I mean, I'm at a really lovely OBGYN
this past week. Just lovely.
I mean, I would go to him in a heartbeat.
This is just my preference. Okay, so I want someone who can
say, Oh yeah, I know what you'retalking about or I don't know,
but it's not necessary. You're saying men can be great
OBGYN. I always find it an interesting

(27:18):
career choice. There's just not, I don't know,
there's just a part of me that'sa little suspicious.
OK, well. In any case.
So OK, that's my own trauma. So, so the bottom line is, is
that getting back to what we were talking about with primary
care docs, I'm not surprised your primary care doc was
anxious about giving you a stimulant because you didn't
have a DHI mean your ADHD wasn'tdiagnosed when you were a child.

(27:41):
And, and, you know, some primarycare docs just feel like, you
know, I don't know, I don't knowthat I want to get into that
particular medication. There's some, I'm not saying
all, but I can just say I've, I've met a lot of people in
general medicine that feel uncomfortable with it, but it
doesn't mean that a person shouldn't, you know, find

(28:01):
someone who does feel comfortable with these
medications and can help you think through using them
rationally. So for example, I did a study in
women who underwent A surgical menopause because they either
had breast or ovarian cancer or they were at genetic risk for
that. And so, and basically they all

(28:22):
said the same thing. You know, everybody told me
that, yes, my metabolism could change.
I could have a higher risk for cardiovascular disease.
You know, my bone density would,you know, be adversely affected
by the surgery. But nobody told me I might lose
my mind. And I, you know, again, it
doesn't happen for everyone thatgoes through a surgical or
natural menopause. But there is clear cut evidence

(28:44):
from my work as well as others that there is an increase in
cognitive problems that people experience, particularly in
something we refer to as the executive functioning domains,
which guess what, are critical for helping you keep 20 balls in
the air at any one time and you know, paying attention and
focusing and getting work done and so.

(29:05):
What you're describing a women'slife, you know, we have to be.
It's a woman's life. Especially if you have a family.
And I mean, you've had, you've have kids, right?
Yes, I have to. So you've done it all, I guess.
I can't believe I'm still not overlooking.
I'm not over it. I'm not over it.
Looking at the CV and even the signature line.
I mean, you're the executive director of several other.
Well, those those are programs that are in the department, so

(29:27):
they kind of fall under me to some degree anyway.
But and yes, I've kind of given over those to some other folks
in the department. So you you keep more than 20
balls in the air and you're saying have you been helped in
have you? Seen, have you seen the balls?
I, I and maybe, I, I think maybe, and maybe what you should

(29:48):
actually do is talk to some of the people at work and they'll
say, Nah, Neil keeps maybe 10 balls in the air.
We've got the other ten. We just pretend that she's got
all 20. But no, we've got the other ten.
We just don't want to tell her because, you know, it might hurt
her feelings, you know, We wouldn't want her to think she's
not all that, you know. I I know you're from the South,

(30:09):
you have to say these things. I but still I tell you all I'm.
Not just being gracious. I'm not.
I'm telling you I have. And I do believe you and I do
believe that you would attract those kind of people and keep
those kind of people around you because I mean, it's such a
treat to meet someone so scholarly, but also so

(30:29):
accessible. Like you have a personality, you
know, I mean, because sometimes I meet people and I'm like, I
can't quite, you know, connect. But you're you're you know, you
have this, you have AI think a natural desire to connect with
people, understand people. I do you have a nice rapport.
I just want to say. Thank you.
And that's one of the things that, you know, because when I

(30:50):
went through medical school, because of that, everybody's
like, oh, you should be a psychiatrist and oh, you should
be a clinician who, you know, your whole career is in, you
know, providing clinical care Because yes, I do have those
qualities. But I also have, like you said,
I'm curious about like what causes the phenomenon that I am

(31:12):
seeing this person struggle with.
And, you know, yes, you can helpthat person through medications
and psychotherapy. And I'm a firm believer in
psychotherapy, love psychotherapy.
I just wasn't very good at it, but it's really important.
And so, so the bottom line is, is that you have to, you have, I
mean, you have to kind of blend those things together.

(31:33):
So for me, I didn't become a basic scientist because I didn't
just want to work with rodents, even though I am the sometimes
people who work in that kind of laboratory because it's very
easy to control mice. Well, not very easy to control
people. They don't come for their
research appointments all the time.
So when sometimes when we put them in the magnet to do brain
imaging, they move and then the data's crappy.

(31:56):
So. So in any case, there's pros and
cons with working with humans and working with mice.
Oh, yeah. And, you know, I am a vegan.
I just, you know, I've been in and out of being a vegan and I
am one of those people that would like to go free all the
mice. I gotta be honest.
I'm one of those people. I relocated 30 mice that were in
my house, took them to a little fairy house in the woods, but

(32:18):
then I also the last. Time I looked my menopausal
women did not want me to take out a piece of their brain so
that I could look at their dendritic spine density.
I So seriously. Seriously.
I mean, you gotta I I can't do that in a human I.
Know, but I don't think the micewant you to either, but I
because that gets complicated for me anyway ethically.

(32:39):
I mean I do believe all creatures are sentient beings,
but that's it's me. I but I don't like cohabitating
with them. Coexisting is one thing and when
they're in my house I do relocate them the most humanely
way I can all right, but I you know what's so funny?
I wrote down and this is so silly because I but I was
looking through the 86 studies, but the one that caught my eye
which why why does this catch? Because I'm a comedian.

(33:02):
The one that was talking about sperm respiration.
I was going to say the line thatI wrote down was stress
increases sperm respiration in mice and men.
What was sperm? I didn't even know sperm
breathed all this time anyway. But anyway, I don't know why did
I write that down? I think we're.

(33:22):
Referring to sort of mitochondrial activity, but no,
we did some Tracy Bale who is organizing this, this, this with
Christy. How do you say Christy?
Christy. Buchali, Buchali.
So Tracy and Christy working on this together with a whole
village to make this great eventon September 5th happen.

(33:43):
But Tracy and I are partners, soshe does the mouse work and I do
the human work. And so one of her postdocs who
or no actually doctoral student Nicole Moon, lovely young woman
who is finishing up medical school but did a PhD with Tracy.
And so all together we've been working on these projects where

(34:04):
we're looking at the impact of stress and how stress the
experienced by someone before they actually conceive a child
impacts the germ cell. So how do men transmit stress
and a message about the stressful environment to the
offspring. And so we have been looking at

(34:24):
both in mice and in semen. So we take men who basically
come into our studies, they giveus 6 sperm samples, one every
month. And we look at perceived stress
and we look at the changes, someof the changes in how the sperm
swim, some of the other things that we're looking at that I
won't go into because it'll boreeverybody to tears.

(34:45):
But it's very fascinating. You can see the impact of the
resolution of stress. So like you go through a
stressor or like maybe a test oryou lost a girlfriend or
whatever boyfriend, whatever is your preference.
And then two months later we cansee a sort of a signal of that
showing up and. It is fascinating and in the

(35:06):
sperm, and I don't mean you know, because this is like some
I mean this is amazing work, butit's also kind of I was
picturing like this is terrible,but I was like, who is
masturbating the mice? I don't want to know, but that's
not a my. Well, the men masturbate
themselves. We don't do that.
I do not do that. That would cross, that would
cross an ethical line by a long shot.

(35:27):
But they do bring their little samples in a in a brown paper
bag, OK? Yeah, well, at one point when I
was trying to conceive and, and I was in a lesbian partnership
at the time, my joke was always like, oh, my partner had a low
sperm count, 0 and absolutely notesticles.
And we kept trying. But, but then my friend, yeah,
he did donate. I did try to conceive.

(35:47):
It just was not my body was likewe're not doing that.
I mean, I conceived, I just didn't carry for long and I was
like, I trust my body wisdom. You know, that was not for me to
do. But what is my point here, Bill?
My dad had a huge trauma as a asa child and I've always
wondered, I've heard different things about, I don't know if
this is just about a recent stress, but can that be carried

(36:10):
on the DNA that I inherited? Because I feel pretty hyper
vigilant about a lot of things. He experienced a huge explosion
that killed his dad and his sister.
And he was there and it was like, whoa, I do not drive.
Like he does not drive next to atanker truck on the highway.
We get, we do not go into a gas station that's being fueled.
But that might just be learned behavior.

(36:32):
I don't know if there's things that you do.
Is there anything about this that?
Older stresses or yes, even older stresses, and we've
studied this in females and havepublished those data.
That was a grant. So if this is again why NIH
funding is so important? Yes, please.
Oh my God, anything we can do? So, so Tracy and I, when we were

(36:52):
back at the University of Pennsylvania, so I went from
Yale to the University of Pennsylvania.
That's where I met Tracy and Tracy and I started working
together. It was a marriage made in
heaven. And then she got married and
moved to Maryland. And then I moved here and then I
moved both Scott and Tracy here.So now we are all here and it's
really awesome. But in any case, when we were

(37:13):
back at Penn, we had a large grant from the National
Institute of Mental Health and the Office of Research on
Women's Health. And basically this research
basically helped us to study theimpact of maternal childhood
adversity. It didn't have to be abuse or
neglect. It could be sort of a range of
different sort of adverse kinds of experiences and the impact on

(37:38):
fetal development. We looked at the baby's fetal
adrenal glands, which is the organ that produces the stress
hormone cortisol. And we were basically wanting to
see if during development the baby's stress system could be
impacted by mom's experience. And the answer was yes, we did

(37:59):
see that. We we saw it mostly in baby
boys, we did not see as much of an effect.
And this is where sex differences come into play.
If you don't look at the sex of the offspring, then you wouldn't
have seen because it would have just kind of washed out the
finding. But if you look at this by the
sex of the baby or the fetus in this situation, you would see

(38:20):
that the baby boys had smaller fetal adrenal volumes than non
baby boys of moms that didn't undergo this childhood
adversity. And then we study babies at six
months postpartum as well as moms six months postpartum.
And moms who did undergone earlylife stress had a dampened
cortisol response to our stressor.

(38:40):
And their baby boys did as well,but not baby girls.
That's fascinating. Do how do you make sense of
that? Do you have a any theory about
that? Why it would be with the males
and not the females as much? Well, there was just as some, I
mean there is, it's a complicated answer to that one.
And I don't have all the INS andouts, but we do know that the
male offspring can sometimes be more vulnerable to various

(39:04):
perturbations in moms. And whether it's being during
pregnancy or like if a mom has an infection or if a mom, you
know, has to take, you know, hasan early birth or what have you,
it can be a little bit harder for the baby boys.
And, and again, you know, if youthink about it from a 300,000
foot view, when it comes to say for example, sort of evolution

(39:29):
and sort of what's evolutionarily necessary, you
know, males being more sensitiveto these adverse effects may
actually be evolutionarily OK, whereas you need more females to
keep the species alive than you do males.
So females have to be more resilient to propagate the
species. That makes sense.

(39:50):
The bottom line is, is that it may be adaptive that's the
issue. Just because you see a sex
difference doesn't mean it's good or bad, and just because
you see an effect of. Fathers stress so in that paper
that we were talking about with the yes, with the.
Sperm respiration of mice and men.
Yes. So stress actually resulted in

(40:12):
the sperm string swimming fasterand straighter.
So I mean, sperm swim all different directions.
You know, they kind of make their way up the fallopian tube
to try and, you know, basically and you know, 'cause conception.
They want to be the winner. They want to be the winner.
So you know, if it's a stressfulenvironment out there and the
male survived. So because again, we don't see

(40:35):
these effects on sperm the monththat the man is stressed, we see
the effects on the sperm when the man is like two months after
the resolution. So he's been successful.
So wouldn't you want that message to get to the offspring?
The, hey, I'm resilient, I'm strong.
I, I was able to survive this breakup.
And, you know, I want to pass that on to my offspring, you

(40:57):
know. And so again, a lot of this is
all theoretical, but if you think about it from that
perspective, it could be a good thing.
I mean, everybody wants to equate stress as being bad, you
know, and that all stress is bad.
Now, yes, watching your mother being assaulted is a bad thing.
You know, having abuse or neglect yourself is a really

(41:19):
that's, that's a very, very painful, horrible thing.
But you know, again, it's like we equate that stress with, you
know, okay, I broke up with my boyfriend or I have an exam I
don't feel prepared for. Well, yes, that's stressful.
But, you know, maybe the stress that you're feeling is going to
make you actually study more thenext time.

(41:42):
And if, you know, maybe yes, you're upset that you broke up
in that relationship, but maybe that was the right thing to do.
So stress helps us to pay attention.
It helps us to pay attention. There's overwhelming stress like
the ones that we were just talking about.
And they and when those occur during childhood, as the brain
is developing, we do believe that they're more pernicious

(42:03):
that meaning that they have a much more negative and lasting
effect. And quite frankly, I did an
editorial for the American Journal of Psychiatry recently,
and it was like, when are we going to stop child abuse and
neglect? I mean, seriously, when are we
as a species going to say that maltreatment of children, we
just have to intervene. Why do and war exposed children?

(42:25):
Because it's not just about maltreatment in the home.
It's about maltreatment in our societies.
And there's so many youth all across the globe who have
suffered famine, have suffered from exposure to war, you know,
and loss of parents. I mean, whatever it might be and
we just accept that as a speciesand, and I think that it's just,

(42:46):
you know, shame on us. I know our standards.
I don't understand it either. I can't.
There's a lot of things I can't.I mean, there's a lot of
insanity in the world. Let's just say.
I mean, honestly, of course my thing, I'm, I'm children.
I don't know. I feel like a very, there's a
part of my psyche who wants to protect the vulnerable, the
voiceless, yes, the children, the marginalized.

(43:07):
That's wonderful. Well, to, I don't know that I'm
effective. I want to, and I've been
thinking about what is mine to do.
And that's where this research. I, I mean, all I know to do is
is call my senators, but I don'tknow what.
Is there anything else that you know of to help with research?
Sure, absolutely. So I mean, really making those
phone calls and standing up for science and is really important.

(43:29):
And every time we have an assault against science, even if
you even if you think people arejust eggheads and they're being
paid just to sit around and think that is not exactly what's
happening. So I would argue if people don't
appreciate science that they tryto learn more about it so that
maybe they would understand thatthis is really important to our
survival as a species. You know, we don't get cures for

(43:52):
cancer without doing research and we don't get cures for
depression and schizophrenia andbipolar disorder and all these
other things if we don't have research.
So I would say, you know, you know, and again, if you come up
with something to somebody and you feel like they're kind of
anti research because they're anti intelligentsia or they're
they are very suspicious of anybody that has more education

(44:14):
than they do. Try to be understanding.
Try to be understanding that it is, it is hard not to be
suspicious of something you don't understand.
And so how do we help people? And that's one of the things
about this, you know, headstrongwomen is, you know, the event on
the 5th at the Buck Theater is really to try and destigmatize

(44:34):
or sort of demystify research and that it is actually
something that we can all find accessible.
And you know, I think that that really helps.
The other thing that really helps is philanthropy because
right now we are going to rely more on foundations like the
Gates Foundation is just made a big announcement about doing and

(44:55):
supporting research and Women's Health.
I don't think woman's brain health was there, which I was a
little disappointed about. But, and again, you know, the
Biden administration. Can we write a letter to the
Gates Foundation? Sure.
And say, hey, include this. Yeah, this, Yeah.
I mean, and also make donations if you have the OR have the
wherewithal to do that. Is that what you're saying?
Yes, If you have the wherewithalto do it, right now is the time

(45:17):
to make donations. And you can fund studies, You
can fund, you know, various projects.
You can reach out to, you know, the School of Medicine and say,
hey, I'm really interested in cancer care.
I'm really interested in multiple sclerosis, or I'm
really interested in helping people with bipolar disorder.
How can I help? And it's a good thing to think

(45:38):
about. I just did my living will and I
was thinking like, that's a goodtime to put exactly if and how.
So how would people find like ifI wanted to go like who like on
the 5 calls app? It's really great.
I, I highly recommend everybody get the five calls app because
it, it does a synopsis of issuesand it also even gives you a
script when you, and it has the button, you just hit the little

(45:59):
phone and you, and then somebodyanswers.
You know, somebody will answer like at Michael Bennett's
office, somebody answer and we'll take your call or
sometimes you just leave a voicemail.
But how? What?
Is there a hub or is there anywhere that somebody could go?
It's called. See to advancement.
So I mean, if you think about it, if it's hard to remember
that all you'd have to do would also say fundraising at CU.

(46:21):
But if you want to give for medical or biomedical research,
then, you know, calling CU and shoots and looking up the
advancement office. Scott Arthur.
So, Scott Arthur. I'll put a link in the show
notes. I'll make it easy and then you
can send me the link or we'll just pull it up and put it in
there. And he's the vice chancellor for
advancement over at the CUN Shoes campus and just an

(46:44):
incredibly lovely guy with very mission driven really.
Again, you know, some people think, Oh my gosh, if I call and
I ask about this, they're going to like, demand a certain amount
of money or, you know, or, you know, they're never going to
leave me alone ever again or whatever it might be.
That's not how we roll. I mean, I have to say, Scott and

(47:05):
his team are really incredibly caring, thoughtful, and what
they want to be able to do is help people who want to help.
How can we help you give and theway that you want to?
But we're not going to hound you.
Yeah, I love this and it helps me feel like there's something
in life, especially in this phase of my life.
But I want to, I want to leave alegacy.

(47:27):
I want to, I mean, I want to do some good.
I mean, it's really, I want to be of service at this point.
There was a lot of time, like even as a comedian, I was like,
me, me, me. I need, you know, I need
attention from strangers. You know, I'm from a big family.
I'm not the 9th of 11, but I wasborn the fourth of three that
were wanted. So are you?
A Whoops. Baby, no, I really, I wasn't.

(47:49):
I mean, I think she wanted me tobegin with, but then her mom
died in a car accident when I was two months in year row and
she went through, she went through a big crisis while I was
developing right at two months. Oh my gosh.
So that that impacted my in utero experience, my mother's
life. You know, she lost her Mama
abruptly in a car accident. So anyway, all I'm saying is at

(48:10):
that point, I think she was justoverwhelmed and it was like
this, you know, and probably hadthose thoughts.
I was thinking about all this generational trauma that's maybe
scientific, but also we recreatethese traumas.
I mean, she was fried. I was the 4th and, you know,
grieving her. She died at 94 when I mean, and
she was ready. And I mean, I helped her

(48:30):
transition with Hospice. And I mean, even then it's
still, I'm, I feel a little bit of chaos.
It's been 2 years and I'm still like.
Our moms must have died about the same time because my mom
died just a little over two years ago as well.
And there's something very powerful about that experience,
and I think I'm still reeling from it.

(48:51):
Yeah. I hadn't been in psychotherapy
for probably 20 something years.And then after about six months
after that, I was like, you know, I think maybe I need to do
some exploration on this. And I have to say, it's been
incredibly helpful, so. Because I think after they pass,
we have permission to look at things that we could not look at

(49:13):
or even think and even say. Like I'm saying things that my,
I mean, she would be so mortified, but she's dead.
So I figure, you know, it's my time to shine.
I mean, even if I'm wrong, but Ido couch it like, I don't know,
I mean, OK, so wait, I am jumping around with my ADHD, but
I, I know there's a through linehere that we're carrying.

(49:34):
OK, The, the research. I want to be of service.
I really want to help make the world a better place in whatever
way I feel called to do that. This would feel really great to
like change my I'm pointing to my file cabinet because my
living trust is here, but I justyou know, whatever I would like
to give a little chunk towards something lovely, meaningful,
maybe even this postpartum research because of like that

(49:57):
almost makes me want to cry because of what my mother.
I feel compassion for her. Yes, I really I love that woman.
You know, I love that woman and I wanted you know, I just want
her to love herself and I didn'twitness that she did.
I think she was tortured by someof her own things that your own

(50:17):
Michigan, Yeah. That she couldn't forgive
herself for. And I just want women out there
who've ever had this kind of stuff to be able to forgive
themselves, have compassion and also, hey, get the help from
Someone Like You. Yes.
Absolutely. That there's help?
Yeah, one of the things that I get status about in this day and
age and like your mom obviously had you and my mom had me.

(50:40):
So you know what, I don't want to say how many decades ago, but
and any who So it was a different time.
But, you know, even when I started working in postpartum
depression during the 1990s, when I was at training at Yale,
you know, the OBGYN didn't want to deal with it at the time.
They were terrified of it. They didn't, you know, Prozac
had just come out. And can we give this medication

(51:03):
to women who are breastfeeding? And my research studies showed
that, yes, you can. And so, you know, again, that
was my goal is to say, hey, these women need help.
And especially if they're havingthese obsessional thoughts, then
this particular class of medication can be really
helpful. And so I remember the first time
that I gave a breastfeeding woman who was participating in

(51:24):
my study an SSRI, one of these kinds of antidepressants.
And I was like, Oh my gosh, whatam I doing?
But you know, I had, I had data to suggest that this was
absolutely fine. And then after doing two of
these studies, we show that yes,this is fine.
This is, you know, a baby doesn't get enough of this
medication to actually, you know, impact the serotonin
system. And so and I won't go into the

(51:47):
model that we use to to determine that, but the bottom
line was, is that I felt at thatpoint we could really tell
women, look, you know, you can take these medications in the
postpartum period. You can also take them during
pregnancy, despite the fact thatthe FDA just convened a, a
workshop to question whether after all these decades, can we

(52:08):
give people SSRI's or other antidepressants during
pregnancy. And the data is over and over
again saying, yes, you can. But this is another time where
people are like, oh, you know, let's just have these women
suffer, you know, like, seriously, it's there's not
enough therapist. I mean, I personally feel
incredibly blessed that I can participate in psychotherapy.

(52:33):
Most people don't have that opportunity.
They don't have the insurance tocover it.
If they do, they can't afford all the copays that come with
that. There are a lot of therapists
out there that don't even take. Insurance, right?
So you're paying out of pocket. So you know, yes, if we had all
the therapist in the world and I'm sorry, ChatGPT bot therapy
is not the same as sitting with somebody.

(52:56):
Even if you're looking at them, you know, through Zoom, it is
not the same. We as human beings need that
connection. So I'm sorry, you know, we don't
have the possibility to just give like what you know, Oh,
you're depressed. Let's let you live in a bubble
throughout your entire pregnancy.
No, you can. You need to treat women and you

(53:16):
need to treat them with evidencebased medications as well as
psychotherapy. And so my I get really
frustrated when. Well and passionate.
I love seeing your. Passionate.
Well, because it's. Important.
I mean it changed like I said earlier when I had my I mean I
had my fist drawn back and I mean if I had not gotten on and
I did go to trauma therapy as well.

(53:36):
So like you said, the psychotherapy plus some hormone
therapy, yes, changed my life and my son's life.
He he has had a much mellower, happier childhood thanks to
medication and psychotherapy. Yes, of his mother.
And if I hadn't had that, And that should not be a thing of
privilege. Exactly.

(53:57):
You shouldn't be a thing of privilege and we shouldn't have
leaders that are dissing it and trying to bring suspicion about
this because quite frankly, you,you said you were a runner,
right? You exercised well, great.
Yes, exercise is very good for the brain.
And I tell people this all the time.
It increases something called brain Dr. neurotrophic factor,

(54:17):
which is like fertilizer for your nerve cells, you know, and.
That's exciting to hear and it's.
Lovely. It's lovely, but it doesn't cure
depression. It it helps, but it doesn't cure
depression. It doesn't cure bipolar
disorder. It doesn't cure schizophrenia,
it doesn't cure PTSD. So and it's not going to prevent
people from having those problems.

(54:39):
I mean, think about all the Premif all the pre, you know, the
premier athletes that they're they're really physical
specimens that are just they eatwell and they exercise and they
still suffer from psychiatric illnesses.
And you could say, well, it's all the stress.
Well, maybe, but still it's likeit's not like all of this
exercise cured them. And so I am thinly veiled here,

(55:03):
maybe not so thinly. Veiled.
You know, punching, you know, a button here about like this
whole focus now that we're we'rejust supposed to like eat well
and be healthy with our exerciseand somehow that's going to keep
us from having mental illness. And I'm just like, you know,
that really says to me that our leaders don't really understand

(55:23):
neuroscience, biology and just, you know, human health.
Yeah, period. And we could, I mean, that is
the end of a sentence they don'tunderstand.
And that's why we have got to dophilanthropy and we've got to
call our representatives and vote.
I'm going to say it, please. Vote and please.
And I love what you said earlierabout and I know it's like, are

(55:44):
we going to ever change anyone'smind?
But the only way we will is to try to understand them.
I'm going back to what you said earlier when we're faced with
somebody who who is a skeptic about science and like, OK, and,
and anyone listening, I'm just thinking like you're so like,
like I say, you're rooted in theearth.
You worked in the tobacco fields.
You know what I mean? You're out there working in the

(56:05):
field. What were you doing?
Were you picking tobacco? I did it.
Work. I did everything I, I cropped.
So I was like on those old fashioned harvesters where
you're sitting like 5 inches offthe ground, you know, the
trailers, you know, pulling thislike structure and you've got
tobacco leaves hitting you in the face and you're like
reaching in and cropping the leaves that are ready to be

(56:26):
harvested. And you hand them up to somebody
who then basically we used to use these wooden sticks and
you'd have twine and the person was a tire.
And so you were, I was a cropper.
I hand it to the tire. They would basically tie it on
to the stick. And then when the stick is full,
you've gone the length of a stick with all of these little
bunches of tobacco. Then somebody you call a stick,

(56:49):
somebody comes and picks it up. They're standing up on this
tractor that's moving around. And then they lay it on a
trailer. And when the trailer is full, we
get a new trailer and then somebody takes the trailer to
the barn. So I did every single job.
So I was a proper, I did the tying, I did the picking up the
sticks. I actually climbed 20 feet high

(57:10):
in the barn and would poke the tobacco and pack it into the
barn. Because it needs to get packed.
It has to get packed into a barn.
So you're standing, you're standing spread eagle on these
like big Timbers that are up in the top of the tobacco barn and,
and basically picking up these 25.
Pounds That's you're a badass. I mean, you really wanted those

(57:32):
Levi's. I'll tell you I did want those
Levi. Well, I do remember because I
know I think you're a little younger than me, but yeah,
Levi's were the thing and I werethe I was raised in the.
Oh yeah, which one I do 5 O ones.
I do remember that would they button up for us yes yes, the
five O 1 God, it takes me back so so in closing, I feel like we

(57:53):
have to get towards closure, butI don't want to.
I love I mean. I've got to work on my comedy
bit for the 5th. Yeah, we're going to work.
Yes, you're going to present. I'm hoping and I know that's
going to happen. Is that I think what's inspiring
and you've already shared so many things that have changed
lives, but that we know there's just better live.
I mean, I know this is a cliche.Better living through chemistry,

(58:15):
but through the right chemistry and so that we don't have to
suffer. Please.
That's the thing that makes me the saddest is when I sit down
with a woman who has been struggling for years, you know,
whether it be mood and cognitiveissues after going through an
oophorectomy, which is a surgical menopause.

(58:36):
Removal of the ovaries. Yes, or having a postpartum
depression. I had people would come to me
and say I didn't know I was depressed until because, you
know, having a baby is stressfuland you know, and it's hard.
And you don't sleep. Yes, exactly.
And it's really hard. And you know, I never realized
that I was really suffering fromdepression until I looked back

(58:58):
at my baby's after my baby's first birthday.
And I'm looking back and going, Oh my God, I've been miserable
this whole time. And that just makes me so sad
because somebody could have donesomething for that woman.
Yeah, much, much earlier. And for the baby, yeah, I mean,
it's a it's because it mutually benefits.
It mutually benefits mom and baby.
I mean. And that's why I think we have

(59:18):
to really keep talking about these things and making the
people, I mean, making people understand that like, for
example, postpartum depression is, if it's not the most common,
it is like the second most common adverse effect of child
childbearing. You know, some people have
bleeding, some people get infection and things like that
or become hypertensive postpartum.

(59:39):
But, you know, postpartum depression is just that common,
you know, and depression during the menopause.
I mean, women who've never had adepressive episode can have
their very first episode as they're going through menopause.
And there's no reason to suffer because quite frankly, menopause
on average last year's, the whole transition last year.
Yes, it's it's, it's, it's over a decade.

(01:00:02):
Sometimes, right, Sometimes, yes, absolutely.
I just remember when I one time,you know how our phones are like
a Black Mirror and I just remember seeing my face and it
was. Beyond resting face, it was, it
was like I'm like my son is looking at this like and I know
this is I'm codependent. So let me just say I'm in
recovery program for codependency, but it it like in

(01:00:26):
a weird way, somehow I can't gethelp unless it helps my son, but
I it we it's worth it to do it for yourself.
Yes, I mean, but as as mothers, I mean, if I can even appeal to
you, if you're also codependent,do it for your family, do it for
your extended community, becauseI was just like, oh, I'm
scowling. Yes, I am literally.
And I didn't know like that was my sign.

(01:00:47):
I didn't know how miserable. Yes, I was like, you're saying
she saw that in pictures. Maybe her face looked miserable.
Yes, or just. She just had a unhappy she was.
Unhappy and and it was the eventof her child's first birthday
that made her stop to. I think people when they have
events, they do stop to take, you know, a sense of themselves

(01:01:08):
and sort of where things are andlike, wow, that's, that's been a
year and oh, wow, yeah, it's been a whole year where I'm
pretty miserable. But one of the things that when
I did my menopause surgical menopause study, where women
were enrolling in my study for executive functioning problems,
they said to me, and it didn't matter because I enrolled people
from all over the country. And they said to me that they

(01:01:30):
had been to their primary care doc multiple times.
And they said we just don't knowwhat to do.
And I felt really sad because I'm like, well, that's why I'm
doing the study. And to a tee, all the women, I
mean, some of them have been suffering five years, 10 years,
15 years. They said to me, thank you for
doing this research because I really, we had no idea what to

(01:01:53):
do to, to solve this problem andto, you know, really try to
improve my, my condition. Because some women were like,
you know, I've, I've left the job force or I just don't feel
like I'm doing as well at my job.
And so my self esteem has also gone down.
And confidence, my confidence has gone down with my cognitive.
And then I I had a show called Mental Pause there for a while.

(01:02:17):
But So what is it the hormonal therapy that helps the most for?
That, well, in these women, theyhormone therapy wasn't an option
for most of them because if theyhad had cancer, then they like
breast or ovarian cancer, They were not, you know, couldn't use
hormone therapy. And so the goal of this study
was really to look at this as new onset executive functioning

(01:02:39):
difficulties, sort of like ADHD,sort of new onset attention
deficit types of problems. And we didn't call it that.
We called it just new onset executive functioning difficulty
because ADHD again, in the rulesand our diagnostic manual, you
know, you're supposed to have onset in childhood.
And these women were having onset after the surgical

(01:03:00):
procedure. And again, you could arguably
say that they had some biological vulnerability that
when we remove their ovaries andthus they had a crash in their
estrogen levels and then they couldn't take estrogen that, you
know, the part of the brain thatis important for executive
functioning was kind of a doublehit.
It was not only that they had this predisposition, but they

(01:03:22):
also lost the estrogen. And so the we basically used
ADHD medication in this study. It was Liz Dex amphetamine,
which people might know as Vyvanse.
I love my Vyvanse. I want to get a new prescription
for it. I'm going to.
Just because it's so it is an off label use, but that's why
you do research, because you know, for a primary care doctor

(01:03:42):
to feel comfortable saying, oh, I'm going to now prescribe this,
they need to have a paper data that shows them it was safe.
You know that these were the potential side effects, but this
was how much better it was than placebo and what dose to use and
and when to see the effect. Like we saw a separation from

(01:04:03):
placebo, meaning that it was better than placebo within three
weeks. And so it's a fairly short
window of time that you would know whether this is going to
help a woman or not. I got to tell you, I feel it in
within three hours, right, right.
But I'm but I'm but you have to.And I'm not saying that they
didn't, but we didn't test them again within three hours.

(01:04:26):
I can see such a difference. Thank you for validating that.
And I just want to say truly thank you from my whole being.
Thank you for dedicating yourself to this, to using the
gifts that were given to you by whatever the universe, your
parents, you know, I'm so glad that you're in the world.
Thank you. Thank you.

(01:04:47):
Thank you so much for what you're doing well.
Thank you and thank you for really inviting me to be here
and thank you so much for using your skills as a comedian and to
really help people feel comfortable with themselves and
comfortable with life and all what it means to be a human.
I think that's what the comedians really, they're just,
they really call us to look at our humanity in a way that is

(01:05:10):
just much more self forgiving and gracious, not only towards
ourselves, but, you know, providing that gratitude and
appreciation for others and empathy for others.
So in any case, thank you for being the, you know, helping us
be human. Thank you.
I'm going to take that in. It's Yeah, I'm going to take
take it in. Thank you so much.
I think this is going to be a wonderful collaboration of

(01:05:31):
scientists and comedians. September 5th at the Bug Theatre
in Denver. You can get tickets by going to
brainfestdenver.com. Doctor Neil Epperson, thank you
so much. Well, thank.
You it's great to be here. Come to the bug.
I want to thank my guests DoctorNeil Epperson, MD, psychiatrist

(01:05:55):
chair. See you on Chute's campus.
I I don't know why I want to mess that up every time.
Please look at the show notes togo to brainfestdenver.com.
Find tickets for Headstrong Comedy for scientists for
comedians 1 fun night. I don't know, I was trying to do
some math jokes about that. 4 + 4 = 1.

(01:06:15):
Four comedians plus four scientists equals 1 Fun
empowering night. OK, I want to thank my son
Nathaniel Norton for putting together this music loop, and I
want to thank you, the listener once again for being on this
healing journey. It makes a difference.
Please share Traumedy with anyone you know who might be
benefited from it. And remember, no matter what,

(01:06:38):
keep laughing.