S3 E31 - Alison Landoni, Big T Trauma helped with Expressive Art

S3 E31 - Alison Landoni, Big T Trauma helped with Expressive Art - and Big T trauma helps put other small t traumas in perspective. Alison is walking her talk as she shares how humor helped her during a recent cancer treatment.

Reach out: https://www.nancynorton.tv/

Connect with Alison Landoni: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/alison-m-landoni-gloucester-ma/834340

Learn about Leukoplakia: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/leukoplakia/symptoms-causes/syc-20354405

ADHD book:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/108593.Driven_to_Distraction

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
You're listening to the Traumedypodcast with Nancy Norton.
Trauma plus comedy equals traumedy.
Traumedy is not a replacement for trauma therapy, but it may
help you get by between sessions.
You're listening to Traumedy, the podcast that helps you take
your pain and play with it. I'm Nancy Norton.

(00:26):
I am a former nurse, comedian, and keynote speaker about the
power of humor, why we need it, how it helps us.
Bring the power of humor to yournext event with award-winning
comedian Nancy Norton. Nancy got out of healthcare for
the same reason. A lot of people get into it, to
save lives. Message Nancy at nancynorton.tv

(00:49):
this week on Dramedy. So my big tee trauma happened
when I was about 8, and I didn'tquite understand what was
happening. It was very confusing and very
shocking. It kind of set me on a
trajectory of very low self esteem.
I lost a lot of friends, you know?
Now in hindsight, it's like, Oh yeah, I was probably super

(01:11):
depressed. And feeling all alone.
Feeling all alone and no one else is going through this,
Yeah. And and not even know.
I didn't have a category for it,you know what I mean?
I didn't even have. I didn't have anything.
Trauma can be isolating and overwhelming.
Share Traumedy with a friend today.
Share with a friend who might need to know they're not alone,

(01:33):
or just to hear a funny story. So I would do the thing where
you'd have the two tape recorders and I would interview
myself, right? Like I and I remember my friend
coming over and she was howling at this and I was like, oh, I
just thought it was clever. I didn't think it was funny.

(01:54):
Yeah, so to get her to laugh like that as a surprise.
Yeah, yeah, which was great. And then it was like, wow, that
gave me like a little boost, self-confidence boost, you know.
Then I try out for the local, you know, Punch and Judy show.
I work my way from the ghost to punch, you know, over for a
couple of years I did. Woo God.

(02:18):
God. I started doing theater and I
was always drawing like drawing was my way of working through
difficulty. The Trauma D podcast is
sponsored by Crybaby Badass. You have to feel it to heal it.
You are a Crybaby badass luminary.
See your light in the mirror. Merchandise available at

(02:40):
nancynorton.tv. Welcome to Trauma D My guest
this week is Allison Landoni. Am I saying it right?
Correct, That is correct. And I guess.
Good Irish name. The the Irish Landoni's.
That's right. Well familiar and I was looking

(03:04):
at your Psychology Today and what a nice list of letters you
have after your name there. And I was going to ask you
because you're I know you're an art therapist and you and I met
at the Association of applied intherapeutic humor conferences
studying therapeutic humor. And so you have I knew that

(03:24):
acronym. I knew CHP is is certified humor
professional but may I humor? Academy together.
And you what is an LMHC? An LMHC is a licensed mental
health counselor. Oh, wonderful.
So official. And then CLYL.

(03:44):
That's a certified laughter yogaleader.
Oh, really? Yeah.
Oh, I see. I didn't know that about you.
That you were certified, Leadingcertifiable, Yeah.
And REAT. That's a registered expressive
arts therapist. Wow and I and then we're down to

(04:05):
the she her, which I could figure out by myself.
I have she they these days the kids are teaching me
nomenclature. I love just old tomboy.
You know, I'm too old to be a tomboy is like Tom grandpa or
something, but I. Well, your Uncle Lance.
Uncle Nance and I love. Yeah, I love that.
That's my little way of like combining my she her with they

(04:28):
them because definitely female identified, but gender I kind
of, I know I kind of want to hitthe unsubscribe button from
gender. I hear that.
I hear that. I remember growing up and it was
just like, we're androgynous. We just to our people.
We just like people. We're we just are, you know,
are. We yes, we just are.

(04:49):
I OK, so hey, listen, thank you for taking the time.
You're a busy person you I've seen you're really active on
social media, which I love because you shared very, very
openly and vulnerably your cancer journey.
Some of it, you know, where you were going in for treatments.
And I mean, we should if you send me or I can download it off

(05:10):
Facebook like shots of you talking into a banana and.
My banana phone, yes. You know, because I, I might
start there just, and then we'llgo back in time a little bit,
but that's the most current thing that I, you know, that
I've been witnessing. And then all your activities,
'cause you're very active too. So how was that for you?

(05:31):
Using humor? Like applying it to yourself?
It was very, I mean, it sounds very, it was very healing.
But you know, I so I was part ofa clinical trial.
I have a precancerous so luckilyit's not cancer.
Oh, I apologize for not misstepping, OK.

(05:54):
It is. It is cancer treatment.
That's what they call it. However, it is precancerous, so
which thank goodness. Yeah, let's let's remember that
that this is a precancers. I almost want to use a different
terminology without the word cancer.
In it. I know, right?
Yeah, it's a leukoplacia is. That what it's called I have.

(06:19):
A leukoplacia on my tongue. Wait, I'm gonna, you know what?
I'm gonna look that up and put alink to in the show notes to
that. So you were treating
leukoplacia? Yeah, my dentist found a few
years ago. And so I've been going to the
Dana Farber and every few monthsand then they said, you know, a
clinical trial is opening up. Why don't you come in and you

(06:44):
you'd be a good candidate for it.
So I was like, all right, so it finally opened up and I think I
was like patient zero. They're only like two or three
of us starting it. And now I think it's up to 20,
which is great. But the basically I had a lot of
time. So you go in really, really
early and they measure everything and they look at it

(07:05):
and they take photos and stuff and then they have to mix the
drug. So you have to go away for a few
hours and then you come back. So during this time, you know, I
had time on my hands. So, you know, and so in the very
beginning it was kind of scary because I was going through a
lot of other emotional stuff andmy personal life with a breakup

(07:28):
and all kinds of things. And it was just kind of like
perfect storm of things. And the, you know, so the first
time wasn't much fun, but I keptthinking like I was thinking
about Norman Cousins and I was thinking about just what we do
with Ath. And I was also thinking about
just my own practice as a therapist and trying to, you
know, work with myself and, and,and towards the second treatment

(07:54):
or so this is painful, you know,when they start shooting your
tongue up with, you know, just even the novocaine before they
even do the drug. You.
Know and there's all these people you know who are looking
at you because it's part of a clinical trial.
So there's all these the. Scientists, the scientists are

(08:17):
all around like making yes and examining you and.
Exactly. So you kind of feel a little bit
like a Guinea pig and 'cause I was.
And thank you, by the way, thankyou for volunteering to do that
for us 'cause I have a good feeling you are gonna help save
lives this way. I hope so.
I hope. Well, you know, and your own,
that'd be great, right? It's very sobering to sit in the

(08:43):
in the waiting room and hear people who weren't so fortunate
and lost their tongue. And this is real.
You know my. Sister, right?
My sister had squamous cell carcinoma under her tongue and
ironically is a speech language pathologist who wrote a paper in

(09:07):
college on partial glossectomy, which is part of the tongue and
ended up having part of her tongue removed.
And I mean, it was a big deal. We all were like, are you
kidding me? It was a, it was ABB sized
thing. We're all in, you know.
Well, I say we all, but I went to the doctor with her with my
mom and at that time, and I meanshe had to go through a 16 hour

(09:32):
surgery to remove the floor of her mouth, part of her tongue.
They had to take a skin graft from her wrist right here, the
thinnest part to put it a new bottom.
And then they had to take, you know, they had to replace that
with the thing from her thigh and then they did a radical neck
and they did tracheostomy. Anyway, yes, you so not telling

(09:53):
you anything you don't know, I'mnot, you know, this isn't
scaring you. This is like, you know what, I
saw it 'cause you were right there.
People lost their entire tongue.People, from what I can gather,
just from how I could hear them speaking, because there were, it
was all vowel, you know, there were no consonants.
It was, and their loved ones were right there with them and I

(10:15):
could hear them laughing. They were making jokes.
And if they weren't making jokes, they were telling each
other how much they loved each other.
You know, there was 1 sweet couple there and she would just
say, you know, I'm not gonna mimic it obviously, but she
would just say I love you and hewould say I love you too, Sugar
Blum or whatever. You know, some sort of.

(10:36):
But you were saying like she's saying I love you without,
without the L, right and without, well, maybe they can do
the V, but they. Can do the V But yeah, And, you
know, you sit there and and then, you know, like I said,
you'd also hear the other peoplewho would be laughing about
something. They'd have like their whole
family there, at least a couple people there supporting them.

(10:57):
I thought, wow, you know it every so at Dana Farber in
Boston, you know, everybody's sonice.
Like you go in from, you know, the person in the parking garage
to the person checking you in tothe nurses, to the doctors,
Everybody's just top notch, fantastic, you know, and that

(11:24):
kind of gave a little bit of permission, I guess, you know,
because like with, with trauma, when, when we're, when, when we
think about humor and laughter and trauma, you know, we don't
necessarily, we're not laughing at our trauma, but we're
laughing near it, you know, to kind of, you know, just allow us

(11:49):
to play a little bit, allow our,our minds to think more
spaciously and do problem solving, you know, instead of,
and, and relieving some of the anxiety.
Yeah, I always picture those concentric circles.
My first guest wrote a book called A Drop of Rain and on the

(12:09):
cover are these circles, like almost like a ripple in water.
But it's like it is like a thingwhere we titrate like, oh, is
that 2 on the nose where it actually didn't relieve my
anxiety or pain, It actually added to it.
Like if you're 2 on the nose of the trauma, trying to laugh
about it or whatever, you kind of find that zone, the play

(12:31):
zone, you know, I don't know. I was just picturing that.
In expressive arts therapy, one of the, there's like so many
greats from expressive arts therapy.
One of them I believe it was Paolo Canil.
He came up with a, a term calleddecentering.
So it's basically, you know, you're kind of you're you're

(12:53):
creating rapport, you're creating a bond, you're playing,
you know, so you're decentering away from the problems so that
you can come back and kind of give it a hug.
You know, I don't think, he saidgive it a hug.
But that's what, that's how I think that's your.
Interpretation, yes, my interpretation.
Well, it sounds almost kind of like, almost like what we do

(13:15):
with inner family systems work right now where we are hugging
our inner child. You know, we are kind of getting
that different perspective and knowing there's all these parts
of ourselves, but also there's parts of our trauma, you know,
and I mean, I use a lot of cartooning imagery.
I noticed that that's kind of mysense of humor is to cartoon
things like almost here like, and I mean like I do, I do

(13:42):
cartoon some big traumas. I want to make sure because of
the way I go off on tangents with my ADHD, I always want to
check back. Did I derail something earlier
that you were heading towards? I think I can just under.
You're under your scrutiny. You're of the research.
I just want to back up and make sure.
Yeah. And then you're under the
microscope, so to speak. They're measuring.

(14:04):
So they're measuring this. What is it called again?
The the Leukoplakia. They're measuring the
leukoplakia and you're getting, you know, everyone watching and
it's also you're in physical pain 'cause they're sticking
needles in you. And then, and then, and then
what happened? I think I interrupted you there.
Oh, that's OK, but because I, I just want to backtrack for one

(14:27):
second after a couple times, like I, I started understanding
how painful it was going to be. And so I actually started to try
to psych myself to get some of those endorphins going ahead of
time. Oh, pregame you.
Know I would pregame man I'd tryto prime the pump you know

(14:49):
that's. Brilliant.
There was one time where they were doing it and I said OK,
they're doing this. I'm gonna just imagine myself
belly laughing. I can't belly laugh right now,
but I'm just gonna imagine myself in my head laughing
silently. And boy, that helped.
Weird, but it, it really, reallyhelped.

(15:10):
I mean, not so weird if you study the science of it, but.
Because we know that laughing orand also getting a joke, like
just thinking a funny thought releases endogenous morphine.
So that's the that's the knowledge you had and you're
like, OK, I'm going to, that is great.
I think that's such a gift to tell people because you can do

(15:34):
this. You can like, like even though
it's not organic at the time, it's kind of counterintuitive.
Like this isn't fun for me, but I'm going to imagine that I am
laughing and then my brain thinks I am and.
Exactly what were your results? Well, I I was in less pain.

(15:55):
Yeah. I was in less pain.
I got out of they, they would put me.
I also kind of taught them that you have to, you can't just
shift the person out into traffic afterwards.
You kind of have to like observethem for a little bit.
And you know, it's just that we're human beings and we need a
little bit of TLC after we've been stuck and examined and all

(16:18):
this other stuff. Just kind of put us in a little
quiet room for a little bit before we head off into traffic,
you know? Wonderful you.
You guided them for the next patient.
So yeah, listen, I'm a mental health professional and I know
you may not know this, but we need, we need a little more
care, aftercare. Yeah, yeah.

(16:38):
And and so I was kind of, and myoncologist, my oral surgeon, he,
he was French and he was hilarious actually, you know,
and he is very, very, he listened very, very well and he
was very receptive to to taking,you know, suggestions.

(16:58):
OK. You know, don't give her
novocaine with epinephrine and things like that.
I actually, yeah. 'Cause that makes your heart.
I can't do that either. EPI and my heart feel like I'm
about to run or something. Exactly.
I, I spent like like an hour or two in the, in the recovery
room, you know, because my heartrate wouldn't come down and I'm

(17:20):
just like, look, I'm doing meditations, I'm doing all the
things, but it's just not comingdown.
Please don't, but we can fix this, right?
So they figured it out. But anyway, so, so I did feel
like kind of AI did feel kind ofweird.
What I'm in the chair, you know,and they finished you and I was

(17:44):
like, guys, 'cause they're like,they don't know what.
Every time I would show up, they're like, who is this,
right? I was like, guys, I just
imagined myself laughing. And it really worked.
And they're like, oh, like she'scertifiable.
Like that's. That that's nice, dear, you
know. Yeah.

(18:06):
But. So maybe for people that don't
know how or you know, some folksaren't as good at visualizing,
maybe you could say, hey, have them have headphones on and
listening to their favorite comedian or something funny or
you don't want them laughing. You don't want, you know, you
can't move your mouth like that while you're doing all that
stuff. I don't know.
What do you think about that? Would that be?

(18:26):
Yeah, that's a really great idea.
I did give my doctor some information after the last
conference. I collected some information
from other of our colleagues whoare doing things, you know, like
tumor humor and laugh MD and things like that.
To say like this is actually like a world that's out there

(18:47):
and it's helping people. And this is Dana Farber, so why
not, right? But I, I did show them some of
the videos, like we had to wear these trackers, you know, and so
they knew where we were in the building and stuff.
And, you know, it's like, well, you know, I saw a sign saying,
you know, wear it high enough sothat, you know, people can see
it. And I'm like, well, that's not

(19:08):
very attractive. And I'm sitting there having my
coffee waiting, and I'm like, Ohmy gosh, I should make a video
about how do you wear your track, your tracker?
So I just, you know, my little brain, I'm just like, I'm gonna
go all these different places. I'm gonna go to the garden.
I'm gonna go here. Oh, I was like on fire, right,
You know? Have fun with the GPS.
Yeah, exactly. But also just having fun, just

(19:30):
like just bringing some sort of levity to something that oh, OK,
you have to wear, you know, you're going for cancer
treatment. You have to wear this tracker.
Well, let's have some fun with that, you know?
And again, it's not laughing at the trauma.
Let's laugh at some of the circumstances around it, you
know, And, you know, I'd always get a parfait.
So I started saying, oh, I'm having my parfait today and make

(19:53):
little videos of that. And then I'd go different
places. I'm like, oh, look, they have
parfait. I'll make a little parfait
video. You know, like totally
unrelated. Love it.
I'm your thing. You're the parfait.
You're the parfait. I'm the I'm the parfait lady
even though I'm trying to be like non dairy but whatever.
Well, there aren't probably non dairy parfaits.
I I eat predominantly vegan. But I mean, I always say, you

(20:17):
know, I'm a hypocrite. I cheat occasionally.
But yeah, it's amazing. Nowadays you can get almost
anything non dare you know. Yeah, that's not usually where I
am. I got you.
Oh, yeah. Let's say where are you?
What part of the country are youin?
Oh, no, but I mean like when I go to like different places.
Oh, like. You're not at You're not at
Trader Joe's or. Something.

(20:37):
Exactly. You're at the cafeteria.
Yeah, at the cafeteria. They're not going to have, you
know. You got to bring your own in
your purse. Exactly, exactly.
BYOP. Yeah, there's an incontinence
joke in there somewhere. Yeah, you know, there is so so

(20:57):
there. How many weeks or months did you
do that? Sorry, I interrupted.
You that? No, that's OK.
I did it for 4-4 months, so it was every two weeks.
Every two weeks, so 8, so from April to July.
And so I, I go back in October 23rd or so to like just go check
up. Hey, how's it going?

(21:18):
So the way it kind of goes is ifit does turn into a treatment,
then I'm a candidate because it was shrinking the leukoplacia.
So it was shrinking the lesions.Yeah.
So, so it did. It did shrink the lesions, yeah.
You know it was working. Your your dentist found it.
I know my dentist has this thing.

(21:38):
I think it's called a variscope.I'm not sure, but it's like a
weird light and they for for those.
How did your did just saw just saw it with the regular vision
or how did your dentist? So it was so funny, like I, I
was, my tongue felt like it was numb.
And it turned out that had nothing to do with it.
That was something, we still don't know what that was.

(22:00):
I was like, Gee, my, my tongue feels like it's kind of numb and
like it has novocaine in it, youknow, like when your novocaine
wears off. But I said it's really kind of
weird. So I don't know.
And he's like, well, let me lookat it And he goes, well, I'm not
really concerned about that, butI'm concerned about those little
tiny spots under your tongue. I'm like, what spots?

(22:21):
They're like pinpoints. They're like 3 little spots.
Wow, good job dentist. Right.
He's. So are they on the underside of
your tongue or floor of your mouth?
Underside of my tongue. And and something guided you to
say, Would you please check my tongue?
Yeah, Hon. Wow, I believe in a higher power
myself. So I'm like totally, I don't
know. I mean, it's I'm glad you got,

(22:44):
you know, like you're ahead of this, you know, and.
Yeah, the things that you're asked help for, it's like, no,
we're not going to help you withthat, but we're going to help
you with this giant thing over here, you know?
Yeah. And I've heard this time and
again, something else took me to.
Yeah, actually my guest who's anoccupational therapy assistant,
she went in for something with her.

(23:05):
Oh, numbness, I think it was. And then she, unrelated to that,
they found this tumor on the back of her brain, which turned
out to be a benign thing, but itwas like, oh, she would never
have known to start doing the Mris and checking on this tumor.
And it really wasn't what caused.
I don't know. It's fascinating.
So trust your instincts, folks. If you get a hit to do

(23:27):
something, I got a hit to ask the dentist or the doctor or
whatever, do it. Like don't.
Hit because I. Regret it.
I regret it. I had a thing, and this is such
a small thing, y'all, because comparatively it's just a basal
cell. OK, but and I knew something was
wrong. It kept flaking and flaking and
I was like this just doesn't seem to ever quit flaking.

(23:47):
So I finally, the flake that I have, I finally went and it, but
I, I waited too long and I endedup that the Moe's procedure just
kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
And then I had to have a skin graft and it ended up being like
2/2 hour surgeries and gross. But anyway, it, you know, it's
fine, you know, now. But it was just like, I could

(24:08):
have avoided that had I gone in earlier and not said it's fine.
Because some of us, especially those of us who have some
codependency or like we can't, we care for others, we forget to
take care of ourselves. So I'm just going to put that
out there to the listeners, like, yeah.
Or sometimes we're afraid to speak up, you know?
We're like, our needs are just not that important for some

(24:28):
reason. Like, OK, I don't want to go in
and ask about a little flaky thing, you know, like, do it.
Go in, ask. So I'm proud of you.
Yeah. Good job.
Why? Thank you.
Good job. A round of applause.
Yeah. Yeah, so, but you know, it's so
funny 'cause people, people keepsaying like, like bringing it

(24:49):
up. And I, I, I've kind of maybe
compartmentalized it into part of my brain because I, I just
kind of thought of it as I'm going in to help.
They're going to do this thing, OK, we're taking care of it.
Bum, bum, bum. And everybody else is like, Oh
my God, this is horrible. And I'm thinking, no, this is
great because it's being taken care of.

(25:12):
You know, the thing with trauma is when something happens and
it's not being taken care of. Yeah.
That's the that's the hard part.So old old trauma.
Old big T trauma from childhood.Yeah, and that's what I wanted
to let ask you about too, is just so many of my friends who

(25:34):
are funny or are healers and both are the wounded healers,
you know, and there are these and I consider those kind of
post traumatic gifts that we bring forward like, oh, because
of something we went through. And I was curious about your
childhood, if there was a time in your life where you felt
like, well, you either went through something or you knew

(25:56):
that you were grateful for humorto help you get through it or
what when you first realized youwere funny or any of that.
I know those are kind of questions.
But no, no, no, no, no, that's great because so my big T trauma
happened when I was about 8 and I didn't quite understand what
was happening. It was very confusing and very

(26:17):
shocking and it kind of set me on a trajectory of very low self
esteem. I lost a lot of friends, like,
just weird my life, you know? Now, in hindsight, it's like, Oh
yeah, I was probably super depressed and.
And feeling all alone. Feeling all alone?

(26:37):
No. One else is going through this.
Yeah. And and not even know.
I didn't have a category for it,you know what I mean?
I didn't even have. I didn't have anything to no
point of reference for it really.
So my friendships were for some reason were starting to dwindle.
Maybe I was being more, I don't know.

(27:00):
Who knows what was going on. So I remember, so I remember
like a pre tea and a post tea event, right?
So pre tea. And we're not talking
testosterone for the. No, no, no, no.
Right, of course. Right.
I. Don't know if you could tell by
my voice but I'm taking a non binary dose.

(27:20):
OK. I mainly for bone density and
brain health like hey side effect I'm stronger now but my
voice I feel is deeper. But anyway, T, you know, in the
in the LGBTQ community, T is. Right, exactly.
Sorry. Yeah, of course.
No, but we're talking about trauma.
We're talking. About right in this context.

(27:41):
We're talking about a big T trauma that is we're.
Talking about big T trauma. So before that I so badly wanted
to be a muppeteer. Like so badly A.
Muppeteer, Does that mean you'redoing the you're?
Doing them puppets and I and I remember like forcing my next

(28:01):
door neighbor. Did you like pretend interviews
as if we were Muppeteers? Oh, that's really funny.
That's what I want. I have my Grover puppet, you
know, I was like, that's what I'm going to be a Muppeteer.
This is. Going to be great.
I used to love. Did you do impressions of
Grover? I I did it wasn't so much about

(28:23):
that. I just loved puppetry as it can
and I love and it's it's and I'll get into something related
to that in a second. I'll.
Stay quiet for a minute if I can.
No, no, no, no, that's OK. I'm just I have I have an
attentive ADD. So I'll just be like, OK, let's
go. Where we going?
All right, bye. You would have your friends over

(28:47):
and you had Grover and you were doing.
Interviews, Yep, Yep, doing interviews.
Super serious though, like I wasserious about this cause come on
guys, I'm a muppeteer. Not not I'm going to be.
I, I am. Yes, you were embodied.
I was embodied, right? Trauma happens, go into some

(29:08):
sort of funk, right? So as an artist, I had older
brothers that were musicians andalways recording things.
So I always wanted the tape recorders, the film cameras, all
that stuff, like why do the boysget that?
And I don't get that, right. So I would do the thing where I
you'd have the two tape recorders and I would interview
myself, you know, like I and I remember my friend coming over

(29:35):
like one of my like, oh, you're my friend, right?
And she came over and she was howling at this.
And I was like, oh, I just thought it was clever.
I didn't think it was funny, Youknow, it was in.
Yeah, so to get her to laugh like that as a surprise.
Yeah, yeah, which was great. And then it was like, wow, that

(29:58):
gave me like a little boost, self-confidence boost, you know.
Then I try out for the local, you know, Punch and Judy show.
I work my way from the ghost to punch, you know, over the couple
of years you did, I did woo God.God, I started doing theater and
I was always drawing, like drawing was my way of working

(30:19):
through difficulty. And I made a lot of probably
very disturbing drawings as a child, but but those help.
Me. Transfer and transform and have
a voice because I couldn't tell anybody about what happened And

(30:41):
to the point where it's like, you know, gas lit and that
didn't happen and just put it away.
And it wasn't until my early 20s, actually, I had remembered
it my whole, you know, childhoodand, and teenage years actually.

(31:05):
But but it wasn't until like my 20s and I was like, Oh my God,
that was kind of serious. What happened, you know, and
really starting to feel for thatlittle kid and that little girl
and whoa, right. And processing that.
And then that led, I went to Codependence Anonymous for a

(31:27):
long time, you know, to try to get that.
And then that led me to Buddhiststudies.
And I studied, you know, open and tantric Buddhism for quite a
long time. And I still practice a a bit
and, but, and then that let me like, well, I'm not going to be
a llama. So what am I going to do?
OK, I'll, I'll go into mental health, right 'cause I was
working in the art world and, you know, teaching art and

(31:50):
things like that and loving the light bulbs that went on and,
and humor was the thing that, you know, helped me get my
students to behave, you know, you know, how do I, how do I
corral all these kids are like, yay, we're in art class, we can
do anything, you know, so I would whip out all my weird
accents and things to just try to get them, get their.

(32:11):
Attention. Then right And be present and
things. But yeah.
And I actually did end up studying with this beautiful
woman, Nikki Tillrow. She used to.
She was discovered by Jim Hensonat one of the Puppeteer of

(32:31):
America festivals, and she was from Toronto originally and so
she worked on a show called Today's Special up there, like a
1970s thing, but she was also a mime.
She did work with Red Skelton atthe White House for Lyndon
Johnson or something. I don't know.
It was, it was pretty cool. So I actually learned puppet

(32:57):
stage and television puppetry from her, which was really
great. And she was also a Reiki master.
That was really neat too, yes. Interesting that you're working
with your hands in both of thosein a way, huh?
Right. So she used to work with so
Kermit Love. He was one of the designers for

(33:19):
some of The Muppets and. They did a guy named Kermit that
is a. Kiner Yep, so.
And he also designed a lot of the costumes for the New York
Ballet. And so she and he were very good
friends. And they had a contract.
So he designed the Snuggles fabric softener bare, and Nikki

(33:41):
manipulated it. And she was the original
Snuggles voice. Oh, wow.
And they had a contract with Clorox and they would go into
all these children's hospitals for kids who had terminal
illnesses. And through her, her craft of
puppetry and her Reiki skill, she was a Reiki master.

(34:05):
You know, she could just give this love to these kids.
And she was tell these experiences that were just like,
you know, of what she felt, whatthey felt and how much fun it
was, how much how therapeutic itwas.
And she wasn't a, you know, a therapist or anything.
She was just a performer. But but being a Reiki master,

(34:26):
she understood that transferenceof healing and and things so.
She was, yeah, Energetically, you know.
Energetically right, Right. And the.
Frequency, I really want to study.
I want to see if there are any studies.
I haven't looked it up, but the frequency of humor, you know,
the frequency I got to get back to my microphone frequency, you

(34:46):
know what I mean? Like it.
I keep saying like this feels like my life purpose is to raise
the frequency and, and I do thisthing and I'm not trained in
Reiki, but there's something intuitive.
I'm a very, you know, like I always say, I'm a fifth
generation nurse and before thatwe were called witches anyway,
but I do this thing and I call it Ozark Reiki.
And it's I'm kind of joking, butkind of not like I had this, I

(35:12):
don't know, like intuitive coach, I would say, but she was
saying, I keep seeing you in front of crowds doing this thing
like it's a conductor of a band of a, of an orchestra.
But I'm doing this all the time now on stage where I'm like,
let's raise the frequency. Let's and I'm saying, and I can
see it being, I can feel it and I can see it collectively

(35:32):
raising the frequency. And it's not even sometimes I'm
saying really specific words, but a lot of times I'm talk, I'm
saying my bits and sometimes I'mliterally saying let's, you
know, let's love ourselves, you know, and really things.
But I'm always surprised, like the there's just a, you know,

(35:54):
people sometimes just want a hugor they want to really connect.
But anyway, back to so the frequency of of whatever that is
Reiki and humor and and play thethe frequency.
Right, right 'cause we connect first we have to have a
connection and you know this from being a fellow ADH deer,

(36:14):
right? When and, and this makes me so
let me back up here. Sorry huh?
Perfect ADHD moment. We started in the middle.
I know because we, you and I, are filling in those blanks.
That's the way I feel like. You know what's, you know this
part now I'm going to do. But yeah, go ahead and say the.

(36:34):
Part out loud, you would say. Connection connection.
Connections. Thank you.
So there, I don't know. Do you know Edward, Doctor
Edward Hollowell, Do you know his work?
He wrote like. I can't I this is how I have to
do things nowadays with my memory.
I do not recall. He wrote Driven to Distraction,

(36:59):
ADHD 2 point O and he has a a a center here in Massachusetts.
No, I don't. Specifically for ADHD, he has
this great thing where it's likethe five cycles of success or he
keeps, I think he keeps changingthe name 5 cycles of excellence

(37:19):
or something. And it starts with connection,
right? So, you know, when you're a kid
and you're not finding that connection because other kids
are smarter, they're already on this.
You know, the the teacher said something, I'm over here and I
don't know, Everybody's already gone down the road and I'm still
here on this one spot or. Or you're ahead of them.

(37:40):
Or. You're ahead of them.
You. You have a big trauma like that.
There's like, there's exponential growth that can come
with that too. It's like, oh, I'm already
dealing with some life and deathstuff, or I'm already dealing
with some really happy things. And Nope, your peers, as far as
you know, aren't there just different, you know, different
abilities? Yeah.
Yeah. And when we can't connect,
right, we can't play. So he starts it with like

(38:04):
connection and then play. And then when you can play, then
you can kind of practice that, right.
And then when you practice that,you master it.
After you master it, you get recognition for it.
I'm doing this because it's in circles on a page and then it
goes, and then it goes back to play, right?
Or goes back to connection afterrecognition, right.
So when it's just cut off at theknees and you can't connect with

(38:26):
anybody, you know. And, and that's what sometimes
happens with trauma when you, when you feel isolated and you
feel like you can't connect. And, and one of the things that
I was very interested in when I was doing my master's program
and working for Justice ResourceInstitute, I was doing my

(38:47):
internship and then I worked there for a little bit, but they
also worked with Vander Cock, who wrote The Body Keeps.
War. And he has, yeah.
And he has his trauma center in Newton.
And that was that was associatedwith JRI.
And one of the things that we kept talking about is, OK, if

(39:07):
you have complex trauma or an early trauma in an early age,
your brain is developing your, your prefrontal cortex is
developing, your midbrain is developing, your hippocampus is
having these core, you know, memories and things.
It, it really can mess up your executive functioning.
So we would get a lot of kids who are experiencing complex

(39:30):
PTSD but being diagnosed with ADHD.
Yes, that makes perfect. We get, you know, the ace score
thing, you know the adverse childhood events and there's a
score and anybody that's listening to this can go online
and find the test, you know to no like oh, look at this.

(39:52):
I didn't even some things you don't realize are part of an
adverse childhood event. Some things are obvious.
Like you said, you didn't know the severity of what you went
through until you were an adult.Like that was really.
But I could see how it shifted my world.
Oh. Yeah, you know what I mean.
Nobody knew it was serious. You did, but intellectually,

(40:13):
because you didn't have a framework, you didn't have
anything to put it up against. But, and I'm just saying a lot
of but there's some things that are more ambiguous, right, that
you're just oh really are dog dying or, you know, whatever you
didn't know like you how many adverse childhood events you
went through that may have changed your brain.
Exactly While it's developing, right and, and yeah, and
sometimes there and sometimes, you know, and we're all dealing

(40:35):
with it like sometimes they're big TS, sometimes they're little
TS. We have enough of them lined up
and we right. So, so, you know, I, I feel bad
for all these kids who would be misdiagnosed.
So it's like, OK, well, I have to diagnose you with this.
However, we all know you know there's still no code for
complex PTSD. I know there's nothing in the.

(40:56):
Is it the DSM 5 or 6? Now, which one is it?
I don't know if they came out with six.
I think we're still 5. But yeah, we're still 5 and they
were just fighting for it. They were trying to get
something recognized. There are some codes that you
know, early. They don't see early trauma.
It's trauma, just not otherwise specified or something.

(41:19):
And a lot of times I use that like, OK, here's the anxiety
with this, you know, as like a backup because, you know, that's
what people are coming to me for.
This happened when I was a kid. This happened to me last week.
This, you know, and it's, well, not last week, but last week
that triggered all this stuff. Well, that's the way trauma.

(41:39):
Trauma is the gift that keeps ongiving.
And if you're like me, you know,and if you had whatever, I mean,
my therapist will say I have complex PTSD.
And it's helped me to have more compassion for myself to know
that it's like, oh, OK. And when I get triggered and I
still can get triggered, I got triggered last week.
And I was so disappointed because I keep thinking I'm done
being triggered because I've done all.

(42:01):
Who right? I've done all these modalities,
you know, I've done EMPR brain spotting, psychedelic trauma
therapy, but you know, the perfect storm comes or the Oh my
gosh, doppelganger for my mom. This woman last week.
I'm, I just, can, I just, I mean, this woman hugged me after
the show that then shamed me in my ear.

(42:23):
And it was, and she was 84, so she was old enough to kind of
represent my mom. And it was my, it was so much
like something my mom would do, look publicly like you're being
nice and then be so cutting and shaming and just this.
And I had just shared about all this shame stuff.
So I'd given I hand over the information to the audience like

(42:44):
here's I'm I'm sipping actually at bourbon going this is my
shame juice. You know, I've had tried to
quiet my mother's critical things, you know, in my head and
like you're a bad person. Like basically, I mean, I even
reacted out like Nancy Norton. What is wrong with you?
You know I. Mean.
This this woman who had almost my mother's name Jenny is my and

(43:06):
this woman's Jeannie. And it's so weird.
Like I'm like, OK, higher power.I guess I'm supposed to know I
still have work to do because after she left, I talked to the
event planner and I end up calling her the C word.
I was like, but I did. I mean, I don't know if it was a
full trigger. I didn't go into a rage with
her, but I was like, I was bet. I felt like my inner part.

(43:31):
I have that part that you may not have witnessed.
Virginia Vengeance is her name, my inner She is like if anyone
attacks little Nancy, Virginia Vengeance is like she pulls
those swords out of her back andis like, let's go.
You know it's go time and I you know you're.
Protector. Very protect yeah but she's Yeah

(43:52):
anyway how does it make a difference if it is in the DSM 5
or 6 next time in six would it be more helpful for those of you
or those of us receiving treatment or those of you giving
it I. So, you know, it kind of turns
out like some of the treatment is the same, like are you having
a hard time with executive functioning?

(44:15):
And also, OK, do we do something?
Do we do more of a trauma informed therapy?
Yeah, and for those of us, we use clinical judgement like this
is your history, whatever we have to tell the insurance
company, whatever so we can put the claim in, you know, and, and
but I'm going to see you as a person first before a pathology

(44:36):
and your story and what you're telling me.
And that is what we're going with, right.
I mean, I think it would be helpful as far as medication,
you know, because it, you know, it's like not all stimulants
help people who are working withthis, you know, they might need

(44:57):
something more like Guanfazine or something that can help
reduce their, you know, which isa heart medication.
Yeah. My son tried that one, yeah.
Yeah, You know, and that works really well for some people, you
know, and so I think it it wouldbe helpful as far as getting
people more accurate treatment. You know, I wish we could, I

(45:20):
wish we could scan everybody's brains too, you know, I wish
that was available and say, OK, this part is lighting up.
That part's not OK, You know, and, and because we're, we're
just kind of playing Russian. Roulette.
Like, try this for a month and let's see how it works.
Maybe we'll up it, maybe we won't, you know?
Yeah, and it is a. It's an experiment, I guess.
You're saying it's an? Experiment.

(45:41):
And. And that's really hard for
people who have already kind of been through it, you know?
Yeah, yeah. You do your therapy that you do.
Is it predominantly art therapy or you obviously a humor because
your humor you can't help but use humor.
Well, so, yeah, so I do expressive arts therapy.
So that kind of like brings in, it's got more tools in the tool

(46:03):
belt, right? So some of it's somatic, some of
it's drawing, sometimes it's movement, sometimes it's
embodied empathy, which is really cool.
Like I'll play back something orI'll put myself into a shape and
then they they can move my body around to like fit the feeling a
little bit more, which is kind of fun.

(46:26):
Sometimes it is just talking. But the nice thing about
expressive arts therapy is that again, the like decentering,
right? It's non verbal for a lot of it.
So people are starting to connect their dots without
realizing they're connecting their dots.

(46:46):
Yeah, it's. Pretty cool.
I know too in my recovery program that I am now for adult
children we do a lot of like nondominant hand stuff.
I think I know what might come, but it surprises me sometimes,
like that gateway to the inner child or the subconscious, like
you get access that you might intellectually have a block

(47:10):
around that you'll allow through.
Is that what you're saying? Yeah, exactly.
Sometimes, you know, just makinggoofy poems, you know, and then
saying like, oh, OK, and I'll like say, oh, you know what?
I this is what I hear, you know,so it's a lot of person centered
treatment. You know, it's it's sometimes

(47:36):
it's Co creation, sometimes it'sjust sitting with someone and
doodling as we talk. Just anything to kind of lower
the, it's like humor, right? Anything to kind of lower the
stress. Yeah, and maybe.
To open up. Distract the defenses a little
bit. Yeah, yeah.

(47:57):
I'm also thinking, I'm also thinking about like, who's that?
Yeah. Like psychic to the stars, you
know? And he does.
He's always doodling. I mean, he's not doing anything.
He's just like. Subscribing.
Just doing that and it's somehowit lets him access whatever that
is. Whether you believe that or not,
I don't know. But it's like, I know for a
fact, like even in school I always was doodling always

(48:20):
because I couldn't sit still. So I could, I could be there and
hear the lecture, whatever and do the absolutely take notes or
something like that. But.
Yeah, or it's like listening to music to let that part of your
brain kind of like be busy doingsomething so you can do what you
need to do, right? When I write my notes, I have to
listen to like ADHD music, something that's just constant.

(48:46):
Can you? Can you send me a link to ADHD
music? Oh yeah, I mean, there's tons of
them on YouTube, right? You just type in like, oh,
they're great. Where have I been?
I don't. Know ADHD music?
Yeah, you can type in like musicfor ADHD and then you find one
that you can groove one and it'sjust like 3 hours or live or
whatever. So you can find the vibe that

(49:07):
works for you, Yeah. You just find the vibe and then
you're just like, all right, I'mgoing to tackle.
You know, I started with some ofthem that like subliminal
messages and I'm like, I don't know what they're actually
saying. That I know I have some of those
where I've gone to sleep with stuff and I'm like, I wonder
what's going on like at hour, hours.
Yeah, hour 4 1/2. What are they getting me to buy,
you know? Right.
Exactly. Exactly.

(49:28):
I I wanted to say back to Snuggles the Bear and puppetry.
I did and this girlfriend of mine and she was, I mean she was
a PhD in philosophy, so she wasn't like a background in any
of this, but she just knew the to ask for her needs to be met
through a stuffy. Like she literally, we would sit

(49:51):
together and she would hold a stuffy in front of her and she
would, and she was good little puppeteer.
She would move itself and it reminded me of snuggle.
She would move its little head and go, you know, she's kind of
nervous right now. She's thinking about, you know,
and I was like, oh, OK, what else?
What does she need? You know, like she could say it
through the little puppet. It's great.

(50:12):
Yeah, you can say it. I mean, sometimes people go, oh,
I saw what about Bob? And like, oh, it's creepy, you
know, But I mean, we would make some out of paper where you
like, fold them out and then they could like, say whatever,
You only made a whole bunch of characters out of paper and
stuff. I kind of want to get some
puppets for my parts work. Yeah, it's fun because you know

(50:32):
one thing that's cool about whenyou're puppeteering, You know,
like, let's say I have a hand right here, right?
And I would be looking at the puppet, right?
Oh. Yeah, yeah, do it.
I've had this puppet since I wasjust a little kid.
Oh, so this is this is near. This is near and dear.

(50:52):
This is my near and dear puppet.He's like a Kermit knock off
that somebody made. Isn't he the cutest?
I love him because, you know, I had some cross eyes at one
point. I love that.
He Oh, yeah, yes, just for you, Nancy.
He's still cute. But anyway, hi, what's your

(51:13):
name? I'm not sure.
I don't think I ever got one. Maybe you can give me one?
Well, I mean, I had a frog. I just called it Froggy.
But you could probably be more creative.
What is? What does Allison want to call
you? Oh, that does sound good,
doesn't it? Yeah, she's good.
I don't know. Yeah.

(51:33):
Hi, Froggy. Hey.
Hey. That's pretty good.
Yeah, I'm. I'm good with.
Yeah, I'm good with that. Yep.
I love, of course. I do like a Kermit voice, right?
You know. I love when you open your mouth.
I used to get in trouble for opening my mouth and I like when
you do you. Know you gotta do it.
It's duh. You gotta stretch things out

(51:55):
once in a while. Did you ever have to go to the
dentist like Allison? Oh, no, no, no.
But if somebody wanted to look at your tongue, they could.
Do it. They could.
I've had to go. The the the.
The tongologist, how do you callit?
I don't know what they're called.
Oh, you went to the tongologist?I went to the tongologist.

(52:15):
Yes, they were very nice. They gave me a lollipop to lick.
Oh wow, I bet. I don't have teeth so they can't
rot right so. What do you like to eat?
What do you like to eat? Flies, flies.
They're good. The juicy ones are good.
The ones with the little iridescence, though, they, they

(52:36):
kind of taste tangy. And yeah, I know I, well, don't
let them in. I'm trying not to OK.
You must be great around the house.
Yeah, well, I don't get out much.
So I was sitting on a Candlestick for a long time and.

(52:56):
That was really painful, Jack, be nimble.
Well, Jack had a lot of it was aJack of all trades.
Whoa. Yeah, yeah.
Oh, we tried. Let's do the R rated show.
Right. Yay.
Yeah, had to go to the ER, OK. Oh, that's so cool.

(53:20):
So when what you were saying though, when you're doing the
puppeting like when you're looking at it, you were going to
say like. That helps you.
What happens? Yeah.
So what happened? This is in performance, not even
using it with clients, but does.But it is the thing that works
with clients, right? It is it is the thing.
So when you're when you're when you're puppeteering, right?

(53:40):
I took them off, right? If I'm so here we are, we're on
Zoom, right? So I'm looking at the screen so
I can tell what he's doing, right?
I'm looking at you. But if I were live, I would.
Yeah, you're live. You're if.
I'm live, I would be looking at him, but I'm trying to make sure
that he's looking in the camera,right, So he can talk to you

(54:03):
instead of talking over here, right?
So I'm watching that so he can talk to you, right.
But if I were on stage with him,because I, I, I did have a, a
book and a puppet that I would go around schools and blah,
blah, blah. And, and we would have great
conversations, like in front of the kids and stuff.
But a lot of times, like if I have to talk, I'm going to look

(54:26):
at the puppet to basically tell you like, you know, you were you
saying with your energy, like raising the vibration, It's the
same kind of thing. Like, well, I'm looking at the
puppet. You should be looking at the
puppet too. Yeah.
Yeah. Right.
Give him the focus. Good stuff, right?
Right. It's all about just directing
the focus, kind of like in magicor something, you know?

(54:47):
Right, so you but it when we're doing it therapeutically, it's
sort of like getting out of ourselves, giving us that that
perspective or different, you know, like.
Thank you for making that link right.
So I'm, so I'm start to get in awe while I'm doing it, right?
And then like to give that, to give that experience to a client

(55:10):
like here, put this on, try thisout, make them, you know, bring
them to life, right. And so, yeah, I've been thinking
about doing some like, workshopswith therapeutic puppetry and
stuff and I don't know. I love that idea.
Yeah, that's where I was going to go towards the end here
because it's getting towards theend of our time together.

(55:31):
But I hope you'll come back and do this again because I know we
could go on and on about all kinds of different things.
But lately one of the things youwere sharing with me is because
you had that capital T trauma inchildhood, it's made it where
you have a lot of grit and resilience and you get through
like smaller TS, like what's current for you.

(55:53):
What I've been seeing on Facebook, which is cool.
Is it called rowing or is there some other name?
So I I do gig rowing. So it's a specific kind of book
that they make in Cornwall, England, and we have a gig
rowing crew here in Gloucester, MA, and I've been rowing and
this for about four years now. And this past September we had

(56:19):
the opportunity to row in the Great River Race on the Thames.
Wow, that's so cool. That's like kind of cool.
No Sir. This is probably a tradition
that's been going on for how long?
A very. Long time.
Yeah. So you were able, you were, you
got to participate in that. Yes.
So we, we, we took three crews over and we went over and, and

(56:40):
this is, yeah, this is where the, the big tea helps with the
other teas, right. So we're rowing on the Thames
and it starts in London and Millwall near on Canary Wharf.
And I don't know if you've seen the Thames in that area.
It's opaque. It's like coffee.
It's, you know. Polluted is what you're saying?

(57:00):
Gross. It's disgusting.
Does it have a smell? Does it have an often?
It didn't smell. Not like I've heard, I've never
been to Venice, but I heard it has kind of like sometimes sewer
smell a little funky. Right, OK, but so here we are
and we're so we're like trying to find our boat, right?
Is it on the beach? So we walk down the beach and as
we're walking down, I'm like, Ohmy God, I think that's a

(57:21):
clavicle. It's definitely like a human
bone. Oh my gosh.
You see all kinds of right wherethere's shopping carts, there's
loose cables, there's weird metal sticking out, right?
It's the Tums, right? Oh, it's just, it's just really
trashed. And then we have to wade through

(57:42):
the water to get back up on these floats 'cause they didn't
extend the floats onto the beachlong enough, now the tides come
in. So now I'm waist deep.
Oh no. In in.
Disgusting. Water and the day before we went
on this river cruise so we couldcheck out the the, the route,
right? And they're like, yeah, there's

(58:03):
lots of raw sewage. You know, it's gotten better
over the years, but yeah, you don't want to swim in that and
blow. I'm like, Oh my God, I'm waiting
in it, you know, and then I get on to the, you know, finally we
find our boat, get on to the boat and I'm sitting in the
pilot's seat at first because they always had like a like a

(58:24):
passenger. And so that was my position to
start out in. And I'm like Oh my God I have to
sit in these shorts for like hours like 5.
Hours I'd be worried about. An infection?
Yeah, exactly. But you know what I was so
jazzed about? I was so jazzed about the the
whole thing, you know, And I wasjust like, OK, you know, what if

(58:48):
this is how I died, This is. This is a good way to go.
But I'm on the Thames and this is pretty cool.
It was crazy banana pants in thebeginning with boats here, boats
there and one of our one of our coxon's she got her hand damaged
between another boat. So instead of me switching out
mid race, I actually rode the whole race because she left the

(59:11):
other Cox and got in her spot. And so, you know, so I'm like
rowing under like Tower Bridge and past, you know, traders
gate. Big Ben's going off.
You'll always have that. And it's just like, then I come
home, I'm like, all right, I gotta be really serious about
this. So I go to the doctor, you know,
get my tetanus, Yeah, antibiotics.

(59:32):
And she's like, well, it's not going to help you for HB, you
know, Hep B. And she like, walks away.
So far so good. So I'm fine.
I'm fine walking. I'm not like, yeah, you don't
have a. And you know, that's another
thing we know from our Humor Academy, you know, reading those
articles as a nurse, you know, we learn about the NK cells, the
natural killer cells that help you fight infections.

(59:52):
You actually keeping that humor actually makes you more
resilient to and have a better immunity so.
And developing that mindset, youknow, of like, I could either
have this be the most horrible thing in the whole entire world,
but I've experienced worse already a long time ago.
You know what this is? Nothing.

(01:00:13):
Yeah, it's inconvenient. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's
manageable. It's manageable, you know, of
course I'm like, Oh my God, do Ihave, you know, blah, blah,
blah, but I'm fine, I'm fine. It's just yeah, that post
traumatic growth. It's just the, the, the things
that help you make, make, make things down to size and part of

(01:00:37):
the plot. I have a client who used to say
that all the time. She's like, you know, it's all
part of the plot. I'm like, oh, I love that.
That's a great analogy. Part of the plot it's.
Just part of the plot. Well, and it does help when you
go to write that memoir, you know, right, You're you got it.
You got your. Chapters.
It just says, you know, Yep, that means something else is yet
to come, and maybe something else bigger and greater and more

(01:00:58):
wonderful. Yeah, I keep asking.
Higher power, may I please learnfrom delight?
Now I've learned a lot from suffering and I appreciate the
gifts. I don't.
I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but I have to love who I am so I
can't. I can't go back.
Obviously part of my program is like healthy grieving.
I've got to accept it and grieveit.
But like I am asking if I promise to stay, you know,

(01:01:23):
conscious, can I please learn from delight, like go towards
what lifts my spirit rather thanaway from what hurts it?
But so currently you are a therapist and how do people find
you if they want to reach out? And do you do remote or do you
work locally or how do? You I have an office.
Yeah. So I have an office in
Gloucester where I see people inperson.

(01:01:45):
I do see people. I'm only licensed in
Massachusetts. So people in Massachusetts, if,
if they're listening, could reach out to you and they could
find you, would they find you? I'm on Psychology Today.
Yeah, I'm on there. And Alison Landon Yep.
And I'll put a link to that in the show notes too.
I just like you know, or if somebody had a follow up or who

(01:02:09):
knew if somebody else out there is like I was going to do
puppetry stuff and then. You know we could.
Collaborate or whatever. Exactly.
And one of the things I'm thinking about doing, I've
always wanted to merge the two, like really like seriously merge
the 2. So I'm thinking about, I don't
know if I'm going to, you know, universe figure out how maybe
this can happen, right. There's a great PhD program

(01:02:31):
happening in Switzerland and it's expressive arts therapy.
There's one here too at Leslie, where I attended for my graduate
program. But it's but Switzerland, come
on, right? And I'm just thinking like how
to like really intentionally merge therapeutic humor and
expressive arts therapy because they go really hand in hand and

(01:02:52):
they really align with each other very, very well.
Absolutely. How to handle it properly and
appropriately, which is something we learn in Ath.
Yeah, that word, can I just tellyou the word appropriately just
makes me feel like a heaviness on my chest, like like, OK,
what's appropriate for me is notappropriate for you.

(01:03:13):
And, and it is, it's such a nuanced conversation about
appropriateness. And I think because of my mother
and oh God is like, it is such apersonal like, and I get that
with the therapeutic setting. Obviously there are parameters,
you know, there are boundaries, There are firm therapeutic
boundaries, which are a little different than you know, say

(01:03:36):
what I deal with like I and I do, you know, I go around giving
these talks a lot of times with healthcare workers and I am it's
like it's very nuanced conversation, like we want to do
adaptive humor where we're lifting people up or not causing
harm. But yes, but OK, So what we want
to do here is manifest. I'm really big at Co Co

(01:03:57):
creativity and and creating withthe loving universe.
So manifesting A would it? Would it be a PhD program or
what kind of program would it bein Switzerland?
PhD program. I don't know if I want to put
myself through that but. OK, so you got to get clear
first, get clear first. Clear, clear.
It just sounds really good, you know?
Yeah. Do you, are you free enough to

(01:04:18):
do that or you have encumbrancesthere in Massachusetts or could
you actually take a a sabbatical?
It's it's only two weeks in the summer.
What? And then and then online all
year round, right? So it's like I do it in the.
Summer. I don't know.
Let me know when you're ready and we'll put it out there.
Right, let's do it. Yeah, no, there's a hesitation.

(01:04:40):
Yeah, OK. Well.
It's called. It's called previous student
loans. OK, so we got to manifest.
OK, Grant, we got to manifest the money for somehow.
Yeah, right. Yeah.
And under this administration, not a lot of grants are being
given. If you're familiar, I do.
I've done some keynotes recentlyfor research administrators and

(01:05:02):
it's and research scientists. And it's like, Oh my goodness,
we. But there are ways.
And there are people who have money, surprisingly a lot of
money. And they do want to fund things
like this. So if somebody's listening who
happens to have, you know, what,I just need to give, I need to
give this money to somebody. And I think it's Allison

(01:05:22):
Landoni. Why did that be awesome?
Yeah, let's do it. I'm not put it to work.
You, I believe you. I know you're out there.
You're helping healing and you're, you're walking the talk.
That's what I want to say when Ifollow you on Facebook.
And it's like you are doing it. You are.
And you are emerging at all. So yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it's funny. So on Facebook I go by a

(01:05:44):
different name so that my clients can't stalk me.
Oh, good. Yeah, OK.
I'm not saying what it is and it, you know.
Safety wise, I can't. I know 100% understand.
I have to have my own life, you know so.
Yeah, you got to have a little separation and just be you.
Well, Allison, thank you for taking this time today and have

(01:06:05):
a happy reunion with your son. I think you said he's coming
home today from somewhere. He's coming home tonight.
Yep. My dad went to go pick him up.
He came out. He just did Comic Con and spoke
at the New York Public Library for his graphic novel and.
Oh, sounds like he's following in your foot steps a little bit.
He's pretty amazing. Oh, that's so cool.
That's a family tree. And your dad sounds cool.

(01:06:26):
Then you know he's. Yeah.
I gotta tell you. So we were going to the County
Fair. My brother played with Frankie
Avalon at the County Fair a couple nights ago.
Funny, right? He's a, he's a bassist.
I have to do that. He's a bassist.
OK, that's your brother, you said.
My brother right, And so my so we're on the way and I was
thinking about we were gonna do this podcast.

(01:06:47):
I was trying to tell my dad about you.
I was like, I'm just gonna so I played your your dry bar.
So. I was like, Oh well, last the
whole ride and I'll just plug myphone and we can hit list 'cause
it does. Well, you know, for radio, you
know I. Wonder that you that you loved
it. He thought you were whole.

(01:07:08):
He was laughing and laughing thewhole entire time.
He's he's one of my heroes abouthumor and getting through the
world with humor. If I didn't have his humor, I
don't know, I'd probably be in adifferent place.
Thank you for first of all, thank you for that compliment
and sharing that about the Drybar special because it's not,

(01:07:30):
you know, to me, it's not my funniest, but it I liked it.
OK. But I also just I'm glad you
brought up your mentor. Like mine was my grandmother,
you know, my grandmother who went through some of the worst
trauma I could imagine was my humor guru, you know, and also
my ironically, my son too. So it sounds like you've got

(01:07:50):
bookends of, of like echoes of like your dad has brought it
forward and then you're passed it to your son and then they it
echoes back to you. My son and I, he's still living
at home, going to Community College.
And we laugh. Every single day we laugh.
All the time. And you know, it's funny, like
I'm still best buds with his with my ex-husband, his dad and

(01:08:13):
his new and his new wife. And we all love each other and
we just laugh all the. Time.
Oh, I love that. I love that you're still friends
with everybody. Humor helps you transcend so
much, doesn't it? Transcend and we all create
stuff together and you know, it's just life's too short.
Thank you for dropping in with that information and say hi to
your dad and tell him that you're laughing and your son so

(01:08:37):
you have a have a fun night tonight with your family.
Thank you. Thank you.
You. You as well.
All right. Thanks, Allison.
Thanks so much Chance. I really appreciate it.
OK, bye take. Care bye bye.
I want to thank my guest AllisonLandoni.
Please check the show notes so that you can find her on

(01:08:58):
Psychology Today if you want to seek out some information about
therapies, art therapy, expressive therapy, maybe even
sponsor her going to Switzerlandto do that PhD program.
And thank you again for being a listener.
You make a difference. I do believe we help each other
through this journey somehow. We do this Co healing magic

(01:09:21):
thing when we hear each other another validating and then like
wait a minute, I've had something similar and here we
are and let's keep going. Remember, no matter what, keep
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(01:09:45):
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