S3 E31V - Alison Landoni - Expressive Art helped by Big T Trauma

S3 E31 - Alison Landoni, Big T Trauma helped with Expressive Art - and Big T trauma helps put other small t traumas in perspective. Alison is walking her talk as she shares how humor helped her during a recent cancer treatment.

Reach out: ⁠https://www.nancynorton.tv/⁠

Connect with Alison Landoni: ⁠https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/alison-m-landoni-gloucester-ma/834340⁠

Learn about Leukoplakia: ⁠https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/leukoplakia

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
You're listening to the Traumedypodcast with Nancy Norton.
Trauma plus comedy equals traumedy.
Traumedy is not a replacement for trauma therapy, but it may
help you get by between sessions.
You're listening to Trauma D, the podcast that helps you take
your pain and play with it. I'm Nancy Norton.

(00:26):
I am a former nurse, comedian, and keynote speaker about the
power of humor, why we need it, how it helps us.
Bring the power of humor to yournext event with award-winning
comedian Nancy Norton. Nancy got out of healthcare for
the same reason. A lot of people get into it, to
save lives. Message Nancy at nancynorton.tv

(00:49):
this week on Dramedy. So my big tee trauma happened
when I was about 8, and I didn'tquite understand what was
happening. It was very confusing and very
shocking. It kind of set me on a
trajectory of very low self esteem.
I lost a lot of friends, you know?
Now in hindsight, it's like, Oh yeah, I was probably super

(01:11):
depressed. And feeling all alone.
Feeling all alone and no. One else is going through this.
Yeah. And and not even know.
I didn't have a category for it,you know what I mean?
I didn't even have. I didn't have anything.
Trauma can be isolating and overwhelming.
Share Traumedy with a friend today.
Share with a friend who might need to know they're not alone,

(01:33):
or just to hear a funny story. So I would do the thing where
you'd have the two tape recorders and I would interview
myself, right? Love it.
And I remember my friend coming over and she was howling at this
and I was like, oh, I just thought it was clever.
I didn't think it was funny. Yeah, so to get her to laugh

(01:57):
like that as a surprise. Yeah, yeah, which was great.
And then it was like, wow, that gave me like a little boost,
self-confidence boost, you know.Then I try out for the local,
you know, Punch and Judy show. I work my way from the ghost to
punch, you know, over for a couple of years I did.

(02:17):
God, God I. Started doing theater and I was
always drawing. Like drawing was my way of
working through difficulty. The Trauma D podcast is
sponsored by Crybaby Badass. You have to feel it to heal it.
You are a Crybaby badass luminary.
See your light in the mirror. Merchandise available at

(02:40):
nancynorton.tv. Welcome to Traumedy.
My guest this week is Allison Landoni.
Am I saying it right? Correct, That is correct.
And I guess. Good Irish name.
The the Irish Landoni's. That's right.

(03:01):
Well, familiar. And I was looking at your
Psychology Today and what a nicelist of letters you have after
your name there, and I was going.
To ask you. Because you're, I know you're an
art therapist and you and I met at the Association of applied in
therapeutic humor conferences studying therapeutic humor.

(03:21):
And so you I knew that acronym, I knew CHP is is certified humor
professional. But may I what is a LMHC?
An LMHC is a licensed mental health counselor.
Oh, wonderful. So official.

(03:41):
And then CLYL. That's a certified laughter yoga
leader. Oh, really?
Yeah, I see. I didn't know that about you,
that you were certified, leading, certifiable.
Yeah. And REAT.
That's a registered expressive arts therapist.

(04:02):
Wow. And I and then we're down to the
she her, which I could figure out by myself.
I have she they these days the kids are teaching me
nomenclature. I love just old tomboy.
You know, I'm too old to be a tomboy is like Tom grandpa or
something, but I. Well, you're Uncle Lance.
Uncle Nance and I love. Yeah, I love that.

(04:24):
That's my little way of like combining my she her with they
them because definitely female identified, but gender I kind
of, I know I kind of want to hitthe unsubscribe button from
gender. I hear that.
I hear that. I remember growing up and it was
just like, we're androgynous. We just to our people.
We just like people. We're we just are, you know, are

(04:46):
we? Yes, we just are.
I OK, so hey, listen, thank you for taking the time.
You're a busy person you I've seen you're really active on
social media, which I love because you shared very, very
openly and vulnerably your cancer journey.
Some of it, you know, where you were going in for treatments.
And I mean, we should if you send me or I can download it off

(05:10):
Facebook like shots of you talking into a banana and.
My banana phone, yes. You know, 'cause it, I, I might
start there just, and then we'llgo back in time a little bit,
but that's the most current thing that I, you know, that
I've been witnessing. And then all your activities,
'cause you're very active too. So how was that for you?

(05:31):
Using humor like applying it to yourself.
It was very, I mean, it sounds very, it was very healing.
But you know, I so I was part ofa clinical trial.
I have a precancerous so luckilyit's not cancer.
Oh, I apologize for not. Misstepping.

(05:53):
OK. It is.
It is cancer treatment. That's what they call it.
However, it is precancerous, so which thank goodness.
Yeah, let's let's remember that that this is a precancers.
I almost want to use a differentterminology without the word
cancer. In it.
I know, right? Yeah, it's a leukoplacia is.

(06:16):
That what it's called. I have a leukoplacia on my
tongue. OK, I'm gonna you know what?
I'm gonna look that up and put alink to in the show notes to
that. So you were treating
leukoplacia? Yeah, my dentist found a few
years ago. And so I've been going to the
Dana Farber and every few monthsand then they said, you know, a

(06:38):
clinical trial is opening up. Why don't you come in and you
you'd be a good candidate for it.
So I was like, all right, so it finally opened up and I think I
was like patient zero. They're only like two or three
of us starting it. And now I think it's up to 20,
which is great. But the basically they had a lot

(07:00):
of time. So you go in really, really
early and they measure everything and they look at it
and they take photos and stuff and then they have to mix the
drug. So you have to go away for a few
hours and then you come back. So during this time, you know, I
had time on my hands, So, you know, and so in the very

(07:23):
beginning it was kind of scary 'cause I was going through a lot
of other emotional stuff in my personal life with a breakup and
all kinds of things. And it was just kind of like
perfect storm of things. And the, you know, so the first
time wasn't much fun, but I keptthinking like I was thinking
about Norman Cousins and I was thinking about just what we do
with Ath. And I was also thinking about

(07:44):
just my own practice as a therapist and trying to, you
know, work with myself and, and,and towards the second treatment
or so this is painful, you know,when they start shooting your
tongue up with, you know, just even the novocaine before they
even do the drug. You.

(08:06):
Know and there's all these people you know who are looking
at you because it's part of a clinical trial.
So there's all these the scientists.
The scientists are all around like making yes and examining
you and. Exactly.
So you kind of feel a little bitlike a Guinea pig and 'cause I
was. And thank you, by the way, thank

(08:28):
you for volunteering to do that for us 'cause I have a good
feeling you are gonna help save lives this way.
I hope so. I hope.
Well, you know, and your own, that'd be great, right?
It's very sobering to sit in thein the waiting room and hear
people who weren't so fortunate and lost their tongue and.

(08:51):
This is real. You know my.
Sister, right? My sister had squamous cell
carcinoma under her tongue and ironically is a speech language
pathologist who wrote a paper incollege on partial glossectomy,
which is part of the tongue and ended up having part of her

(09:13):
tongue removed. And I mean, it was a big deal.
We all were like, are you kidding me?
It was a, it was a BB sized thing.
We're all in, you know. Well, I say we all, but I went
to the doctor with her with my mom and at that time, and I mean
she had to go through a 16 hour surgery to remove the floor of

(09:34):
her mouth, part of her tongue. They had to take a skin graft
from her wrist right here, the thinnest part to put it a new
autumn and then they had to take, you know, they had to
replace that with the thing fromher thigh and then they did a
radical neck and then did trickyostomy.
Anyway, yes, you so not telling you anything you don't know.

(09:54):
I'm not you know, this isn't scaring you.
This is like, you know what, I saw it 'cause you were right
there. People lost their entire tongue.
People, from what I can gather, just from how I could hear them
speaking, because there were, itwas all vowel, you know, there
were no consonants. It was, and their loved ones
were right there with them and Icould hear them laughing.

(10:17):
They were making jokes. And if they weren't making
jokes, they were telling each other how much they loved each
other. You know, there was 1 sweet
couple there and she would just say, you know, I'm not gonna
mimic it obviously, but she would just say I love you and he
would say I love you too, Sugar Blum or whatever.
You know, some sort of. But you were saying like she's
saying, I love you without, without the L, right?

(10:40):
And without, well, maybe they can do the V.
But yeah, she can do the V But yeah, and you know, you sit
there and and then, you know, like I said, you'd also hear the
other people who would be laughing about something.
They'd have like their whole family there, at least a couple
people there supporting them. I thought, wow, you know it
every so at Dana Farber in Boston, you know, everybody's so

(11:06):
nice. Like you go in from, you know,
the person in the parking garageto the person checking you in to
the nurses, to the doctors, Everybody's just top notch,
fantastic, you know, and that kind of gave a little bit of

(11:28):
permission, I guess, you know, because like with, with trauma,
when, when we're, when, when we think about humor and laughter
and trauma, you know, we don't necessarily, we're not laughing
at our trauma, but we're laughing near it, you know, to
kind of, you know, just allow usto play a little bit, allow our,

(11:51):
our minds to think more spaciously and do problem
solving, you know, instead of, and, and relieving some of the
anxiety. Yeah, I always picture those
concentric circles. I first guest wrote a book
called A Drop of Rain and on thecover are these circles like

(12:11):
almost like a ripple in water. But it's like it is like a thing
where we titrate like, oh, is that 2 on the nose where it
actually didn't relieve my anxiety or pain.
It actually added to it. Like if you're 2 on the nose of
the trauma, trying to laugh about it or whatever, you kind
of find that zone, the play zone, you know, I don't know.

(12:33):
I was just picturing that. In expressive arts therapy, one
of the, there's like so many greats from expressive arts
therapy. One of them, I believe it was
Paolo Canil. He came up with a, a term called
decentering. So it's basically, you know,
you're kind of you're you're creating rapport, you're

(12:55):
creating a bond, you're playing,you know, so you're decentering
away from the problem so that you can come back and kind of
give it a hug. You know, I don't think, he said
give it a hug. But that's what, that's how I
think that's your. Interpretation, yes, my
interpretation. Well, it sounds almost kind of
like, almost like what we do with inner family systems work

(13:17):
right now where we are hugging our inner child.
You know, we are kind of gettingthat different perspective and
knowing there's all these parts of ourselves, but also there's
parts of our trauma, you know, and I mean, I use a lot of
cartooning imagery. I noticed that that's it's kind
of my sense of humor is to cartoon things like almost here

(13:37):
like, and I mean like I do, I docartoon some big traumas.
I want to make sure because of the way I go off on tangents
with my ADHD. I always want to check back.
Did I derail something earlier that you were heading towards?
I think I can just under. You're under your scrutiny.
You're of the research. I just want to back up and make

(13:59):
sure. Yeah.
And then you're under the microscope, so to speak.
They're measuring. So they're measuring this.
What is it called again? The the Leukoplakia.
They're measuring the leukoplakia and you're getting,
you know, everyone watching and it's also you're in physical
pain 'cause they're sticking needles in you.
And then, and then, and then what happened?

(14:21):
I think I interrupted you there.Oh, that's OK, but because I, I
just want to backtrack for one second after a couple times,
like I, I started understanding how painful it was going to be.
And so I actually started to tryto psych myself to get some of
those endorphins going ahead of time.

(14:43):
Oh, pregame you. Know I would pregame man I'd try
to prime the pump you know that's.
Brilliant. There was one time where they
were doing it and I said, OK, they're doing this.
I'm going to just imagine myselfbelly laughing.
I can't belly laugh right now, but I'm just going to imagine
myself in my head laughing silently and boy, that helped.

(15:08):
Weird, but it, it really, reallyhelped.
I mean, not so weird if you study the science of it, but.
Because we know that laughing orand also getting a joke, like
just thinking a funny thought releases endogenous morphine.
So that's the that's the knowledge you had and you're
like, OK, I'm going to, that is great.

(15:30):
I think that's such a gift to tell people because you can do
this. You can like, like even though
it's not organic at the time, it's kind of counterintuitive.
Like this isn't fun for me, but I'm going to imagine that I am
laughing and then my brain thinks I am and.
Exactly what were your results? Well, I I was in less pain.

(15:55):
Yeah. And I was in less pain.
I got out of they, they would put me.
I also kind of taught them that you have to, you can't just
shift the person out into traffic afterwards.
You kind of have to like observethem for a little bit and, you
know, just that we're human beings and we need a little bit
of TLC after we've been stuck and examined and all this other

(16:18):
stuff. Just kind of put us in a little
quiet room for a little bit before we head off into traffic,
you know? Wonderful.
You, you guided them for the next patient.
So yeah, listen, I'm a mental health professional and I know
you may not know this, but we need, we need a little more
care, aftercare. Yeah, yeah.
And, and so I was kind of, and my oncologist, my oral surgeon,

(16:43):
he, he was French and he was hilarious actually, you know,
and he is very, very, he listened very, very well and he
was very receptive to, to taking, you know, suggestions,
OK, You know, don't give her Novocaine with epinephrine and
things like that. I actually.
Give 'cause that makes your heart.

(17:03):
I can't do that either. EPI and my heart feel like I'm
about to run a rooms or something.
Exactly. I, I, I spent like like like an
hour or two in the, in the recovery room, you know, because
my heart rate wouldn't come downand I'm just like, look, I'm
doing meditations, I'm doing allthe things, but it's just not
coming down. Please don't, but we can fix

(17:25):
this, right? So they figured it out.
But anyway, so, so I did feel like kind of AI did feel kind of
weird. What I'm in the chair, you know,
and they finished it and I was like, guys, 'cause they're like,

(17:46):
they don't know what, Every timeI would show up, they're like,
who is this, right? I was like, guys, I just
imagined myself laughing. And it really worked.
And they're like, oh, like she'scertifiable like.
That's. That that's nice, dear, you
know, but. So maybe for people that don't

(18:09):
know how or you know, some folksaren't as good at visualizing,
maybe you could say, hey, have them have headphones on and
listening to their favorite comedian or something funny or
you don't want them laughing. You don't want, you know, you
can't move your mouth like that while you're doing all that
stuff. I don't know.
What do you think about that? Would that be?
Yeah, that's a really great idea.

(18:29):
I did give my doctor some information after the last
conference. I collected some information
from other of our colleagues whoare doing things, you know, like
tumor humor and laugh MD and things like that.
To say like this is actually like a world that's out there
and it's helping people. And this is Dana Farber, so why

(18:50):
not, right? But I, I did show them some of
the videos, like we had to wear these trackers, you know, and so
they knew where we were in the building and stuff.
And, you know, it's like, well, you know, I saw a sign saying,
you know, wear it high enough sothat, you know, people can see
it. And I'm like, well, that's not
very attractive. And I'm sitting there having my

(19:10):
coffee waiting, and I'm like, Ohmy gosh, I should make a video
about how do you wear your track, your tracker?
So I just, you know, my little brain, I'm just like, I'm gonna
go all these different places. I'm gonna go to the garden.
I'm gonna go here. Oh, I was like on fire, right,
You know? Have fun with the GPS, yeah?
Exactly. But also just having fun, just
like just bringing some sort of levity to something that oh, OK,

(19:36):
you have to wear, you know, you're going for cancer
treatment. You have to wear this tracker.
Well, let's have some fun with that, you know?
And again, it's not laughing at the trauma.
Let's laugh at some of the circumstances around it, you
know, And, you know, I'd always get a parfait.
So I started saying, oh, I'm having my parfait today and make
little videos of that. And then I'd go different
places. I'm like, oh, look, they have
parfait. I'll make a little parfait

(19:57):
video. You know, like totally
unrelated. Love it.
I'm your thing. You're the parfait.
You're the parfait. I'm the I'm the parfait lady
even though I'm trying to be like non dairy but whatever.
Well, there aren't probably non dairy parfaits.
I I eat predominantly vegan. But I mean, I always say, you
know, I'm a hypocrite. I cheat occasionally.

(20:18):
But yeah, it's amazing. Nowadays you can get almost
anything. Non dairy, gluten.
Oh yeah, you know. Yeah, that's not usually where I
am. I got you.
Oh, yeah. Let's say where are you?
What part of the country are youin?
Oh no, but I mean like when I goto like different places.
Oh, like you're not at, you're not at Trader Joe's or.
Something exactly you're at the.Cafeteria, Yeah, at the.

(20:39):
Cafeteria they're not gonna haveYeah, you know you.
Gotta bring your own in your purse.
Exactly, exactly. BYOP, Yeah.
Yeah, there's an incontinence joke in there somewhere.
Yeah, you know, there is. So so there how?
How many weeks or months did youdo that?

(20:59):
Sorry, I interrupted. You.
No, that's OK. I did it for 4-4 months, so it
was every two weeks. Every two weeks, so 8, so from
April to July. And so I, I go back in October
23rd or so to like just go checkup.
Hey, how's it going? So the way it kind of goes is if

(21:20):
it does turn into a treatment, then I'm a candidate because it
was shrinking the leukoplacia. So it was shrinking the lesions.
Yeah. So, so it did.
It did shrink the lesions, yeah.You know it was working.
Your your dentist found it. I know my dentist has this
thing. I think it's called a variscope.
I'm not sure, but it's like a weird light and they for for

(21:43):
those. How did your did just saw just
saw it with the regular vision or how did your dentist?
So it was so funny, like I, I was, my tongue felt like it was
numb. And it turned out that had
nothing to do with it. That was something, we still
don't know what that was. I was like, Gee, my, my tongue
feels like it's kind of numb andlike it has novocaine in it, you

(22:07):
know, like when your novocaine wears off.
But I said it's really kind of weird.
So I don't know. And he's like, well, let me look
at it And he goes, well, I'm notreally concerned about that, but
I'm concerned about those littletiny spots under your tongue.
I'm like, what spots? They're like pinpoints.
They're like 3 little spots. Wow, good job dentist.
Right. He's.
So are they on the underside of your tongue or floor of your

(22:30):
mouth? Underside of my tongue.
And and something guided you to say, Would you please check my
tongue? Yeah, Hon.
Wow, I believe in a higher powermyself.
So I'm like totally, I don't know.
I mean, it's I'm glad you got, you know, like you're ahead of
this, you know, and. Yeah, the things that you're
asked help for, it's like, no, we're not gonna help you with

(22:52):
that, but we're gonna help you with this giant thing over here,
you know? Yeah.
And I've heard this time and again, something else took me
to. Yeah, actually my guest who's an
occupational therapy assistant, she went in for something with
her. Oh, numbness, I think it was.
And then she unrelated to that, they found this tumor on the
back of her brain. Which?

(23:13):
Turned out to be a benign thing,but it was like, oh, she would
never have known to start doing the Mris and checking on this
tumor and it really wasn't what caused.
I don't know. It's fascinating.
So trust your instincts, folks. If you get a hit to do
something, I got a hit to ask the dentist or the doctor or
whatever, do it. Like don't.
Hit because I. Regretted.
I regretted I had a thing and this is such a small thing

(23:36):
y'all, because comparatively it's just a basal cell, OK, but.
And I knew something was wrong. It kept flaking and flaking and
I was like this just doesn't seem to ever quit flaking.
So I finally, the flake that I have, I finally went and it, but
I, I waited too long and I endedup that the Moe's procedure just
kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

(23:57):
And then I had to have a skin graft and it ended up being like
2/2 hour surgeries and gross. But anyway, it, you know, it's
fine it, you know now. But it was just like, I could
have avoided that had I gone in earlier and not said it's fine.
Because some of us, especially those of us who have some
codependency or like we can't, we care for others, we forget to

(24:19):
take care of ourselves. So I'm just going to put that
out there to the listeners, like, yeah.
Or sometimes we're afraid to speak up, you know?
We're like, our needs are just not that important for some
reason. Like, OK, I don't want to go in
and ask about a little flaky thing, you know, like, do it, go
in, ask. So I'm proud of.
Yeah. Good job.
Why? Thank you.
Good job. A round of applause.

(24:41):
Yeah. Yeah, so, but you know, it's so
funny 'cause people, people keepsaying like, like bringing it
up. And I, I, I've kind of maybe
compartmentalize it into part ofmy brain because I, I just kind
of thought of it as I'm going into help.
They're gonna do this thing, OK,we're taking care of it.

(25:03):
Bum, bum, bum. And everybody else is like, Oh
my God, this is horrible. And I'm thinking, no, this is
great because it's being taken care of.
You know, the thing with trauma is when something happens and
it's not being taken care of. Yeah.
That's the that's the hard part.So old old trauma.

(25:25):
Old big T trauma from childhood.Yeah, and that's what I wanted
to let ask you about too, is just so many of my friends who
are funny or are healers and both are the wounded healers,
you know, and there are these and I consider those kind of
post traumatic gifts that we bring forward like, oh, because

(25:47):
of something we went through. And I was curious about your
childhood. If there was a time in your life
where you felt like, well, you either went through something or
you knew that you were grateful for humor to help you get
through it or what when you first realized you were funny or
any of that. I know those are kind of.
Questions. But no, no, no, no, no.
That's great because so my big Ttrauma happened when I was about

(26:11):
8 and I didn't quite understand what was happening.
It was very confusing and very shocking and it kind of set me
on a trajectory of very low selfesteem.
I lost a lot of friends, like, just weird my life, you know?
Now, in hindsight, it's like, Ohyeah, I was probably super

(26:31):
depressed and. Feeling all alone.
Feeling all alone? No.
One else is going through this. Yeah.
And and not even know. I didn't have a category for it,
you know what I mean? I didn't even have.
I didn't have anything to no point of reference for it
really. So my friendships were for some

(26:55):
reason were starting to dwindle.Maybe I was being more, I don't
know. Who knows what was going on.
So I remember, so I remember like a pre tea and a post tea
event, right? So pre tea.
And we're not talking testosterone for the.
No, no, no, no. Oh, right.

(27:15):
Of course. Right.
I. Don't know if you could tell by
my voice but I'm taking a non binary dose.
OK. I mainly for bone density and
brain health like hey side effect I'm longer now but my
voice I feel is deeper. But anyway, T, you know, in the
in the LGBTQ community, T is. Right, exactly.
Sorry. Yeah, of course.

(27:37):
No, but we're talking about trauma.
We're talking. About right in this context.
We're talking about a big T trauma that is we're.
Talking about big T trauma. So before that I so badly wanted
to be a muppeteer. Like so badly A.
Muppeteer, Does that mean you'redoing the?

(27:57):
You're doing the puppets and I and I remember like forcing my
next door neighbor. Did you like pretend interviews
as if we were Muppeteers? It's really funny.
That's what I want. I have my Grover puppet, you
know, I was like, that's what I'm going to be a Muppeteer.
It's going to be great. I used.
To love, to do impressions. Did you do impressions of

(28:19):
Grover? I, I did, it wasn't so much
about that. I just loved puppetry as a kid
and I loved and it's it's and I'll get into something related
to that in a second. I'll.
Stay quiet for a minute if I can.
No, no, no, no, that's OK. I just I have I have an

(28:39):
attentive ADD. So I'll just be like, OK, let's
go where we going? All right, bye.
You would have your friends overand you had Grover and you were
doing interviews. Yep, Yep, doing interviews.
Super serious though, like I wasserious about this cause come on
guys, I'm a muppeteer. Not not I'm going to be I I am

(29:00):
a. Muppeteer, you were embodied.
I was embodied, right? Trauma happens go into some sort
of funk, right? So as an artist, I had older
brothers that were musicians andalways recording things.
So I always wanted the tape recorders, the film cameras, all
that stuff like why do the boys get that?

(29:21):
And I don't get that right. So I would do the thing where
you'd have the two tape recorders and I would interview
myself, you know, right. Like I and I remember my friend
coming over like one of my like,oh, you're my friend, right?
And she came over and she was howling at this.

(29:42):
And I was like, oh, I just thought it was clever.
I didn't think it was funny, youknow, it was in.
Yeah, so to get her to laugh like that as a surprise.
Yeah, yeah. Which was great.
And then it was like, wow, that gave me like a little boost,
self-confidence boost, you know.Then I try out for the local,

(30:03):
you know, Punch and Judy show. I work my way from the ghost to
Punch. You know, over a couple of years
you did. I did woo God.
God. And I started doing theater and
I was always drawing. Like, drawing was my way of
working through difficulty. And I had a lot of probably very
disturbing drawings as a child, but those help me transfer and

(30:30):
transform and have a voice because I couldn't tell anybody
about what happened. And to the point where it's
like, you know, gas lit and thatdidn't happen and just put it
away. And it wasn't until my early

(30:52):
20s, actually, I had remembered it my whole, you know, childhood
and, and teenage years actually.But but it wasn't until like my
20s and I was like, Oh my God, that was kind of serious.
What happened, you know, and really starting to feel for that

(31:17):
little kid and that little girl and whoa, right.
And processing that. And then that led, I went to
Codependence Anonymous for a long time, you know, to try to
get that. And then that led me to Buddhist
studies. And I studied, you know, open
and tantric Buddhism for quite along time.
And I still practice a bit and, but, and then that let me like,

(31:41):
well, I'm not going to be a llama.
So what am I going to do? OK, I'll, I'll go into mental
health, right. Because I was working in the art
world and, you know, teaching art and things like that and
loving the light bulbs that wenton and, and humor was the thing
that, you know, helped me get mystudents to behave, you know,
you know, how do I, how do I corral all these kids are like,

(32:02):
yay, we're in art class. We can do anything, you know, so
I would whip out all my weird accents and things to just try
to get them. Get their attention.
Thin, right? And be present and things.
But yeah. And I actually did end up
studying with this beautiful woman, Nikki Tillrow.

(32:25):
She used to, She was discovered by Jim Henson at one of the
Puppeteer of America festivals and she was from Toronto
originally and so she worked on a show called Today's Special up
there, like a 1970s thing. She was also a mime.
She did work with Red Skelton atthe White House for Lyndon

(32:50):
Johnson or something. I don't know.
It was, it was pretty cool. So I actually learned puppetry,
stage and television puppetry from her, which was really
great. And she was also a Reiki master.
That was really neat too, yes. Interesting that you're working

(33:11):
with your hands in both of thosein a way, huh?
Right. So she used to work with Kerm.
So Kermit Love, he was one of the designers for some of The
Muppets. And they did.
A guy named Kermit that. Is a Kerner?
Yep so. And he also designed a lot of
the costumes for the New York Ballet.

(33:31):
And so she and he were very goodfriends and they had a contract.
So he designed the Snuggles fabric softener bare, and Nikki
manipulated it. And she was the original
Snuggles voice. Oh.
Wow. And they had a contract with
Clorox and they would go into all these children's hospitals

(33:53):
for kids who had terminal illnesses.
And through her, her craft of puppetry and her Reiki skill,
she was a Reiki master. You know, she could just give
this love to these kids. And she was tell these
experiences that were just like,you know, of what she felt, what

(34:15):
they felt and how much fun it was, how much how therapeutic it
was. And she wasn't a, you know, a
therapist or anything. She was just a performer.
But but being a Reiki master, she understood that transference
of healing and and things, so she was.
Yeah, energetically, you know. Energetically right, Right.
And the. Frequency, I really want to

(34:36):
study. I want to see if there are any
studies. I haven't looked it up, but the
frequency of humor, you know, the frequency I got to get back
to my microphone frequency, you know what I mean?
Like it. I keep saying like this feels
like my life purpose is to raisethe frequency and, and I do this
thing and I'm not trained in Reiki, but there's something

(34:57):
intuitive. I'm a very, you know, like I
always say, I'm a fifth generation nurse and before that
we were called witches anyway, but I do this thing and I call
it Ozark Reiki. And it's I'm kind of joking, but
kind of not like I had this, I don't know, like intuitive
coach, I would say, but she was saying, I keep seeing you in

(35:18):
front of crowds doing this thinglike it's a conductor of a band
of a, of an orchestra. But I'm doing this all the time
now on stage where I'm like, let's raise the frequency.
Let's and I'm saying, and I can see it being, I can feel it and
I can see it collectively raising the frequency.
And it's not even sometimes I'm saying really specific words,

(35:39):
but a lot of times I'm talking, I'm saying my bits and sometimes
I'm literally saying let's, you know, let's love ourselves, you
know, and really things. But I'm always surprised like
the there's just a, you know, people sometimes just want a hug
or they want to really connect. But anyway, back to so the
frequency of of whatever that isReiki and humor and and play the

(36:06):
the frequency. Right, right 'cause we connect
first we have to have a connection and you know this
from being a fellow ADH deer, right?
When and and this makes me so let me back up here.
Sorry huh? Perfect ADHD moment.
We usually in the middle. I know because we, you and I,

(36:26):
are filling in those blanks. That's the way I feel like.
You know what's, you know this part now I'm going to do.
But yeah, go ahead and say the. Part out loud.
What was I even saying? You wasn't going to say
connection connection. Connections.
Thank you. So there, I don't know.
Do you know Edward, Doctor Edward Hollowell, Do you know

(36:47):
his work? He wrote like.
I can't I this is how I have to do things nowadays with my
memory. I do not recall.
He wrote Driven to Distraction, ADHD 2 point O and he has a a a
center here in Massachusetts. No, I.

(37:08):
Don't specifically for ADHD, he has this great thing where it's
like the five cycles of success or he keeps, I think he keeps
changing the name 5 cycles of excellence or something.
And it starts with connection, right?
So, you know, when you're a kid and you're not finding that
connection because other kids are smarter, they're already on

(37:28):
this. You know, the the teacher said
something, I'm over here and I don't know.
Everybody's already gone down the road and I'm still here on
this one spot or, you know, I can't.
Or you're ahead of them. Or.
You're ahead of them. You have a big trauma like that.
There's like, there's exponential growth that can come
with that too. It's like, oh, I'm already
dealing with some life and deathstuff, or I'm already dealing

(37:51):
with some really happy things. And Nope, your peers, as far as
you know, aren't there just different, you know, different
abilities? Yeah.
Yeah. And when we can't connect,
right, we can't play. So he starts it with like
connection and then play. And then when you can play, then
you can kind of practice that, right?
And then when you practice that,you master it.
After you master it, you get recognition for it.

(38:13):
I'm doing this because it's in circles on a page and then it
goes, and then it goes back to play, right?
Or goes back to connection afterrecognition, right?
So when it's just cut off at theknees and you can't connect with
anybody, you know, And, and that's what sometimes happens
with trauma when you, when you feel isolated and you feel like
you can't connect. And, and one of the things that

(38:34):
I was very interested in when I was doing my master's program
and working for Justice ResourceInstitute, I was doing my
internship and then I worked there for a little bit, but they
also worked with Vander Cock, who wrote The Body Keeps.

(38:54):
War. And he has, yeah.
And he has his trauma center in Newton.
And that was that was associatedwith JRI.
And one of the things that we kept talking about is, OK, if
you have complex trauma or an early trauma in an early age,
your brain is developing your, your prefrontal cortex is
developing, your midbrain is developing, your hippocampus is

(39:18):
having these core, you know, memories and things.
It, it really can mess up your executive functioning.
So we would get a lot of kids who are experiencing complex
PTSD but being diagnosed with ADHD.
Yes, that makes perfect. Yeah, myself, I we get, you

(39:41):
know, the ace score thing, you know the adverse childhood
events and there's a score and anybody that's listening to this
can go online and find the test,you know, to no like oh, look at
this. I didn't even.
Some things you don't realize are part of an adverse childhood
event. Some things are obvious.
Like you said, you didn't know the severity of what you went

(40:01):
through until you were an adult.Like that was really.
But I could see how it shifted my world.
Oh. Yeah, you know what I mean.
Somebody knew it was serious. You didn't intellectually
because you didn't have a framework, you didn't have
anything to put it up against. But, and I'm just saying a lot
of but there's some things that are more ambiguous, right, that
you're just oh really are dog dying or, you know, whatever you

(40:23):
didn't know like you how many adverse childhood events you
went through that may have changed your brain.
Exactly While it's developing, right And and yeah, and
sometimes they're and sometimes,you know, and we're all dealing
with it like sometimes they're big TS, sometimes they're little
TS. We have enough of them lined up
and we right. So, so, you know, I, I'd feel
bad for all these kids who wouldbe misdiagnosed.

(40:47):
So it's like, OK, well, I have to diagnose you with this.
However, we all know you know there's still no code for
complex PTSD. I know there's nothing in the.
Is it the DSM 5 or 6? Now, which one is it?
I don't know if they came out with six.
I think we're still 5. But yeah, we're still 5.
They were just fighting for it. They were trying to get

(41:07):
something recognized. There are some codes that you
know, early. They don't see early trauma.
It's trauma, just not otherwise specified or something.
And a lot of times I use that like, OK, here's the anxiety
with this, you know, as like a backup because, you know, that's

(41:28):
what people are coming to me for.
This happened when I was a kid. This happened to me last week.
This, you know, and it's, well, not last week, but last week
that triggered all this stuff. Well, that's the way trauma,
trauma is the gift that keeps ongiving.
And if you're like me, you know,and if you had whatever, I mean,
my therapist will say I have complex PTSD.
And it's helped me to have more compassion for myself to know

(41:50):
that it's like, OK, And when I get triggered and I still can
get triggered, I got triggered last week and I was so
disappointed because I keep thinking I'm done being
triggered because I've done all say.
Who right? I've done all these modalities,
you know, I've done EMPR brain spotting, psychedelic trauma
therapy. But you know, the perfect storm
comes or the Oh my gosh, doppelganger for my mom.

(42:13):
This woman last week. I'm, I just, can, I just, I
mean, this woman hugged me afterthe show, but then shamed me in
my ear. And it was, and she was 84, so
she was old enough to kind of represent my mom.
And it was my it was so much like something my mom would do,
look publicly like you're being nice and then be so cutting and

(42:37):
shaming and just this. And I had just shared about all
this shame stuff. So I'd given I hand over the
information to the audience. Like here's, you know, I'm I'm
sipping actually a bourbon goingthis is my shame juice.
You know, I've had tried to quiet my mother's critical
things, you know, in my head andlike you're a bad person.
Like basically, I mean, I even reacted out like Nancy Norton.

(42:58):
What is wrong with you? You know, I mean, this this
woman who had almost my mother'sname Jenny is my and this one
was Jeannie. And it's so weird.
Like, I'm like, OK, higher power.
I guess I'm supposed to know I still have work to do because
after she left, I talked to the event planner and I end up
calling her the C word. I was like, yeah, but I did.

(43:22):
I mean, I don't know if it was afull trigger.
I didn't go into a rage with her, but I was like, I was bet.
I felt like my inner part, I have that part that you may not
have witnessed. Virginia Vengeance is her name.
My inner. She is like if anyone attacks
little Nancy, Virginia Vengeanceis like she pulls those swords

(43:44):
out of her back and is like, let's go.
You know it's go time and I you know you're.
Protector. Very protect.
Yeah, but she's anyway, how doesit make a difference if it is in
the DSM 5 or 6 next time in six,would it be more helpful for
those of you or those of us receiving treatment or those of
you giving it? I so, you know, it kind of turns

(44:07):
out like some of the treatment is the same, like are you having
a hard time with executive functioning?
And, and also, OK, do we do something?
Do we do more of a trauma informed therapy?
You know, and for those of us, we use clinical judgement like
this is your history, whatever we have to tell the insurance

(44:29):
company, whatever. So we can put the claim in, you
know, and, and, but I'm going tosee you as a person first before
a pathology and your story and what you're telling me.
And that is what we're going with, right?
I mean, I think it would be helpful as far as medication,
you know, because it, you know, it's like not all stimulants

(44:51):
help people who are working withthis, you know, they might need
something more like Guanfazine or something that can help
reduce their, you know, which isa heart medication.
Yeah, my son tried that one, Yeah.
Yeah, You know, and that works really well for some people, you

(45:11):
know, and so I think it it wouldbe helpful as far as getting
people more accurate treatment. You know, I wish we could.
I wish we could scan everybody'sbrains too, you know, I wish
that was available and say, OK, this part is lighting up.
That part's not OK, You know, and, and because we're we're
just kind of playing Russian roulette, like, try this for a

(45:32):
month and let's see how it works.
Maybe we'll up it, maybe we won't, you know?
Yeah, and it is a. It's an experiment, I guess.
You're saying it's an? Experiment.
And. And that's really hard for
people who have already kind of been through it, you know?
Yeah. You do your therapy that you do.
Is it predominantly art therapy or do you obviously a humor

(45:54):
cause your humor? You can't help but use humor.
Well, so, yeah, so I do expressive arts therapy.
So that kind of like brings in, it's got more tools in the tool
belt, right? So some of it's somatic, some of
it's drawing, sometimes it's movement, sometimes it's
embodied empathy, which is really cool.
Like I'll play back something orI'll put myself into a shape and

(46:18):
then they they can move my body around to like fit the feeling a
little bit more, which is kind of fun.
Sometimes it is just talking. But the nice thing about
expressive arts therapy is that again, the like decentering,
right? It's non verbal for a lot of it.

(46:41):
So people are starting to connect their dots without
realizing they're connecting their dots.
Yes. It's pretty cool.
I know too in my recovery program that I am now for adult
children we do a lot of like nondominant hand stuff.
I think I know what might come, but it surprises me sometimes,
like that gateway to the inner child or the subconscious, like

(47:06):
you get access that you might intellectually have a block
around that you'll allow through.
Is that what you're saying? Yeah, exactly.
Sometimes, you know, just makinggoofy poems, you know, and then
saying like, oh, OK, and I'll like say, oh, you know what?
I this is what I hear, you know,so it's a lot of person centered

(47:30):
treatment. You know, it's it's sometimes
it's Co creation, sometimes it'sjust sitting with someone and
doodling as we talk. Just anything to kind of lower
the, it's like humor, right? Anything to kind of lower the

(47:50):
stress. Yeah, and maybe.
To open up. Distract the defenses a little
bit. Yeah, yeah.
I'm also thinking, I'm also thinking about like, who's that
like psychic to the stars, you know, And he does his, he's
always doodling. I mean, he's not doing anything.
He's just like just doing that. And it's somehow it lets him

(48:12):
access whatever that is. Whether you believe that or not,
I don't know. But it's like, I know for a
fact, like even in school I always was doodling always
because I couldn't sit still. So I could, I could be there and
hear the lecture, whatever and do absolutely take notes or
something like that. But.
Yeah, or it's like listening to music to let that part of your

(48:33):
brain kind of like be busy doingsomething so you can do you need
to do right. I have when I write my notes, I
have to listen to like ADHD music.
I got something that's just constant.
Can you? Can you send me a link to ADHD
music? Oh yeah, I mean, there's.
Tons of them on. YouTube, right?
You just type it like, oh, they're great, where have I

(48:55):
been? I don't know ADHD music.
Yeah, you. Can type in like music for ADHD
and then you find one that you can groove one and it's just
like 3 hours or live or whateverso you.
Can find the vibe that works foryou.
Yeah, you just find the vibe andthen you're just like, all
right, I'm going to tackle. You know, I started with some of
them that like subliminal messages and I'm like, I don't
know what they're actually saying.

(49:15):
That I know I have some of thosewhere I've gone to sleep with
stuff and I'm like, I wonder what's going on Like an hour,
hours, an hour, 4 1/2. What are they getting me to buy,
you know? Right.
Exactly. Exactly.
I I wanted to say back to Snuggles the Bear and puppetry.
I did and this girlfriend of mine and she was, I mean, she

(49:38):
was a PhD in philosophy, so she wasn't like a background in any
of this, but she just knew the the to ask for her needs to be
met through a stuffy. Like she literally we would sit
together and she would hold the stuffy in front of her and she
would and she was good little puppeteer.
She would move itself and it reminded me of snuggle.

(49:58):
She would move its little head and go, you know, she's kind of
nervous right now. She's thinking about, you know,
And I was like, oh, OK, what else?
What does she need? You know, like.
You could say. It through the little puppet.
It's great. Yeah, you can say it.
I mean, sometimes people go, oh,I saw what about Bob?
And like, oh, it's creepy, you know, But I mean, we would make
some out of paper where you like, fold them out and then

(50:21):
they could like, say whatever, You only made a whole bunch of
characters out of paper and stuff.
I I kind of want to get some puppets for my parts work.
Yeah, it's fun because you know one thing that's cool about when
you're puppeteering, You know, like, let's say I have a hand
right here, right? And I would be looking at the

(50:41):
puppet, right? Oh.
Yeah, yeah, do it. I've had this puppet since I was
just a little kid. Oh, so this is this is this is
near and dear. This is my near and dear puppet.
He's like a Kermit knock off that somebody made.
Isn't he the cutest? I love him because, you know, I

(51:03):
had some cross eyes at one point.
I love that he. Oh yeah, yes.
Just for you, Nancy. He's still cute, but anyway.
Hi, what's your name? I'm not sure.
I don't think I ever got one. Maybe you can give me one.
Well. I mean, I had a frog, I just
called it Froggy. But you could probably be more

(51:24):
creative. What is?
What does Allison want to call you?
Oh, that does sound good, doesn't it?
Yeah, she's good. Yeah.
I don't know. Yeah.
Hi, Froggy. Hey.
Hey. That's pretty good.
Yeah, I'm. I'm good.
Yeah, I'm good with that. Yep, I love.
Of course I do like a. Kermit voice, right?
You know. I love when you open your mouth.

(51:47):
I used to get in trouble for opening my mouth and I like when
you do, you know. Oh, you gotta do it.
It's duh. You gotta stretch things out
once in a while. Did you ever have to go to the
dentist like Allison? Oh, no, no, no.
But if somebody wanted to look at your tongue, they could.
Do it. They could.
I've had to go. The the the.

(52:09):
The tongologist, how do you callit?
I don't know what they're called.
Oh, you went to the tongologist?I went to the tongologist.
Yes, they were very nice. They gave me a lollipop to lick.
Oh wow, I bet. So I don't have teeth so they
can't rot right? So.
What do you like to eat? What do you like to eat?
Flies, flies. They're good.

(52:32):
The juicy ones are good. The ones with the little
iridescence, though, they, they kind of taste tangy.
And yeah, I know I, well, don't let them in.
I'm trying not to OK. You must be great around the
house. Yeah, well, I don't get out
much. So.

(52:53):
I was sitting on a Candlestick for a long time and.
That was really painful, Jack, be nimble.
Well, Jack had a lot of it was aJack of all trades.
Whoa. Yeah, yeah.
Oh, we tried. Let's do the R rated show.
Right. Yeah, to go to the ER, okay.

(53:19):
Oh, that's so cool. So when what you were saying
though, when you're doing the puppeting, like when you're
looking at it, you were gonna say like that helps you What?
Happens, yeah. So what happened?
And this isn't performance, not even using it with clients, but
does. But it is the thing that works
with clients, right? It is it is the thing.
So when you're when you're when you're puppeteering, right?

(53:40):
I took them off, right? If I'm.
So here we are, we're on Zoom, right?
So I'm looking at the screen so I can tell what he's doing,
right? I'm looking at you.
But if I were live, I would. Yeah, I'm live.
You know you're live. If I'm live, I would be looking
at him, but I'm trying to make sure that he's looking in the
camera, right? So he can talk to you instead of

(54:04):
talking over here, right? So I'm watching that so he can
talk to you, right. But if I were on stage with him,
cuz I, I did have a book and a puppet that I would go around
schools and blah, blah, blah. And, and we would have great
conversations like in front of the kids and stuff.
But a lot of times, like if I have to talk, I'm gonna look at

(54:26):
the puppet to basically tell youlike, you know, you're saying
with your energy, like raising the vibration.
It's the same kind of thing. Like, well, I'm looking at the
puppet. You should be looking at the
puppet too. Yeah, yeah.
Right. Give him the focus.
Good stuff, right? Right.
It's all about just directing the focus, kind of like in magic

(54:46):
or something, you know? Right.
So you but it when we're doing it therapeutically, it's sort of
like getting out of ourselves, giving us that that perspective
or different, you know, like. Thank you for making that link
right. So I'm so I'm start to get in
awe while I'm doing it right andthen like to give that to give

(55:08):
that experience to a client likehere, put this on, try this out,
make them, you know, give bring them to life.
Right. Yeah.
And so, yeah, I've been thinkingabout doing some like, workshops
with therapeutic puppetry and stuff and I don't know.
I love that idea. Yeah, that's where I was going
to go towards the end here because it's getting towards the

(55:30):
end of our time together. But I hope you'll come back and
do this again because I know we could go on and on about all
kinds of different things. But lately, one of the things
you were sharing with me is because you had that capital T
trauma in childhood, it's made it where you have a lot of grit
and resilience and you get through like smaller teas, like

(55:52):
what's current for you, which I've been seeing on Facebook,
which is cool. Is it called rowing or is there
some other name? So I I do gig rowing.
So it's a specific kind of book that they make in Cornwall,
England. And we have a gig rowing crew
here in Gloucester, MA, and I'vebeen rowing and this for about

(56:14):
four years now. And this past September we had
the opportunity to row in the Great River Race on the Thames.
Wow, that's so. Cool.
That's like, so cool. No Sir.
This is probably a tradition that's been going on for how?
Long, a very long time. Yeah.
So you were able, you were, you got to participate in that.

(56:35):
Yes. So we, we, we took three crews
over and we went over and, and this is, yeah, this is for the,
the big tea helps with the otherteas, right?
Yeah. So we're rowing on the Thames
and it starts in London and Millwall near on Canary Wharf.
And I don't know if you've seen the Thames in that area.

(56:55):
It's opaque. It's like coffee.
It's, you know. Polluted is what you're saying?
Gross. It's disgusting.
Does it have a smell? Does it have an often?
It didn't smell, would. Not like I've heard, I've never
been to Venice, but I heard it has kind of like sometimes sewer
stuff, a little punky. Right, OK, but so here we are
and we're so we're like trying to find our boat, right?
Is it on the beach? So we walk down the beach, and

(57:18):
as we're walking down, I'm like,Oh my God, I think that's a
clavicle. Definitely like a human bone.
Oh my gosh, What? You see all kinds of swords,
right? Where there's shopping carts,
there's loose cables, there's weird metal sticking out, right?
It's the Tums, right? Oh, it's just, it's just really
trashed. And then we have to wade through

(57:42):
the water to get back up on these floats because they didn't
extend the floats onto the beachlong enough.
So now the tides come in. So now I'm waist deep.
Oh no. In in.
Disgusting. Water and the day before we went
on this river cruise so we couldcheck out the the, the route,
right? And they're like, yeah, there's

(58:03):
lots of raw sewage. You know, it's gotten better
over the years, but yeah, you don't want to swim in that and
blow. I'm like, Oh my God, I'm waiting
in it, you know, And then we geton to the, you know, finally we
find our boat, get on to the boat and I'm sitting in the
pilot's seat at first because they always had like a like a

(58:24):
passenger. And so that was my position to
start out in. And I'm like Oh my God, I have
to sit in these shorts for like hours, like 5 hours.
I'd be worried about an infection, yeah.
Exactly. But you know what I was so
jazzed about? I was so jazzed about the the
whole thing, you know, And I wasjust like, OK, you know, what if

(58:48):
this is how I died, This is. This is a good way to go.
But I'm on the Thames and this is pretty cool.
It was crazy banana pants in thebeginning with boats here, boats
there and one of our one of our coxon's she got her hand damaged
between another boat. So instead of me switching out
mid race, I actually rode the whole race because she left the

(59:11):
other Cox and got in her spot. And so, you know, so I'm like
rowing under like Tower Bridge and past, you know, traders
gate. Big Benz going off.
You'll always have that. And it's just like, then I come
home, I'm like, all right, I gotto be really serious about this.
So I go to the doctor, you know,get my tetanus, Yeah,

(59:31):
antibiotics. And she's like, well, it's not
going to help you for HB, you know, Hep B.
And she like, walks away. So far so good.
So I'm fine. I'm fine walking.
I'm not like, yeah, you don't have a.
And you know, that's another thing we know from our Humor
Academy, you know, reading thosearticles as a nurse, you know,
we learn about the NK cells, thenatural killer cells that help
you fight infections. You actually keeping that humor

(59:55):
actually makes you more resilient to and have a better
immunity so. And developing that mindset, you
know, of like, I could either have this be the most horrible
thing in the whole entire world,but I've experienced worse
already a long time ago. You know what this is?
Nothing. Yeah, it's inconvenient.

(01:00:15):
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's manageable.
It's manageable, you know, of course I'm like, Oh my God, do I
have, you know, blah, blah, blah, but I'm fine, I'm fine.
It's just yeah, that post traumatic growth.
It's just the, the things that help you make, make, make things
down to size and part of the plot.

(01:00:38):
I have a client who used to say that all the time.
She's like, you know, it's all part of the plot.
I'm like. Oh, I love that.
That's a great analogy part of the plot.
It's just part of the plot. Well, and it does when you go to
write that memoir, you know, right here, you got it.
You got your chapters just. Says, you know, Yep, that means
something else is yet to come, and maybe something else bigger
and greater and more wonderful. Yeah, I keep asking.

(01:01:00):
Higher power, may I please learnfrom delight?
Now I've learned learned a lot from suffering and I appreciate
the gifts. I don't, I wouldn't wish it on
anyone, but I have to love who Iam so I can't.
I can't go back. Obviously part of my program is
like healthy grieving. I've got to accept it and grieve
it. But like I am asking if I, if I

(01:01:20):
promise to stay, you know, conscious, can I please learn
from delight, like go towards what lifts my spirit rather than
away from what hurts it? But so currently you are a
therapist and how do people findyou if they want to reach out?
And do you do remote or do you work locally or how do?
You I have an office. Yeah.

(01:01:42):
So I have an office in Gloucester where I see people in
person. I do see people.
I'm only licensed in Massachusetts.
So people in Massachusetts, if if they're listening, could
reach out to you and they could find you.
Or they find you. I'm on Psychology Today.
Yeah, I'm on there. So Allison Landon Yep.

(01:02:02):
And I'll put a link to that in the show notes too.
I just like you know, or if somebody had a follow up or who
knew if somebody else out there is like I was going to do
puppetry stuff and then. You know we could.
Collaborate or whatever. Exactly.
And one of the things I'm thinking about doing, I've
always wanted to merge the two, like really like seriously merge
the 2. So I'm thinking about, I don't

(01:02:24):
know if I'm going to, you know, universe figure out how maybe
this can happen, right. There's a great PhD program
happening in Switzerland and it's expressive arts therapy.
There's one here too at Leslie, where I attended for my graduate
program. But it's but Switzerland, come
on, right? And I'm just thinking like how
to like really intentionally merge therapeutic humor and

(01:02:49):
expressive arts therapy because they go really hand in hand and
they really align with each other very, very well.
Absolutely. How to handle it properly and
appropriately, which is something we learn in Ath.
Yeah, that word, can I just tellyou the word appropriately just
makes me feel like a heaviness on my chest, like like, OK,

(01:03:11):
what's appropriate for me is notappropriate for you.
And, and it is, it's such a nuanced conversation about
appropriateness. And I think because of my mother
and oh God is like, it is such apersonal like, and I get that
with the therapeutic setting. Obviously there are parameters,
you know, there are boundaries, There are firm therapeutic

(01:03:32):
boundaries, which are a little different than, you know, say
what I deal with like I and I do, you know, I go around giving
these talks a lot of times with healthcare workers and I am,
it's like, it's very nuanced conversation.
Like we want to do adaptive humor where we're lifting people
up. We're not causing harm, but yes,
but OK, So what we want to do here is manifest.

(01:03:55):
I'm really big at Co Co creativity and and creating with
the loving universe. So manifesting A would it?
Would it be a PhD program or what kind of program would it be
in Switzerland? PhD program.
All right, I don't know if I want to put myself through that,
but. OK, so you got to get clear
first, get clear first. Very clear.
It just sounds really good, you know?

(01:04:16):
Yeah. Do you are you free enough to do
that? Are you have encumbrances there
in Massachusetts or could you actually take a a sabbatical
It's. It's only two weeks in the
summer. What?
And then and then online all year round, right?
So it's like 2. Weeks in the summer.
I don't know. Let me know when you're ready

(01:04:36):
and we'll put it out there. Right.
Let's do it. Yeah, no.
There's a hesitation. Yeah, OK.
Well, it's called, it's called previous student loans.
OK, so we got to manifest. OK, Grant, we got to manifest
the money for somehow. Yeah, right.
Yeah. And under this administration,
not a lot of grants are being given.

(01:04:56):
If you're familiar, I do. I've done some keynotes recently
for research administrators and it's and research scientists.
And it's like, Oh my goodness, we.
But there are ways. And there are people who have
money, surprisingly a lot of money.
And they do want to fund things like this.
So if somebody's listening who happens to have, you know, what,

(01:05:17):
I just need to give, I need to give this money to somebody.
And I think it's Allison Landoni.
Why did that be awesome? Yeah, let's do it.
I'm not put it to work. You, I believe you.
I know you're out there. You're helping healing and
you're, you're walking the talk.That's what I want to say when I
follow you on Facebook. And it's like you are doing it.
You are. And you are emerging at all.

(01:05:39):
So yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's funny.
So on Facebook I go by a different name so that my
clients can't stalk me. Oh, good.
Yeah, OK. I'm not saying what it is and
it. You know, safety wise, I can't.
I know 100% understand. I have to have my own life, you
know so. Yeah, you got to have a little
separation and just be you. Well, Allison, thank you for

(01:06:02):
taking this time today and have a happy reunion with your son.
I think you said he's coming home today from somewhere.
You're coming home tonight? Yep.
My dad went to go pick him up. He came out.
He just did Comic Con and spoke at the New York Public Library
for his graphic novel and. Oh, sounds like he's following
in your foot steps a little bit.He's pretty amazing.
Oh, that's so cool. That's a family tree.

(01:06:24):
And your dad sounds cool. Then you know he's.
Yeah. I gotta tell you.
So we were going to the County Fair.
My brother played with Frankie Avalon at the County Fair a
couple nights ago. Funny, right?
He's a, he's a bassist. I have to do that.
He's a bassist. OK, that's your brother, you
said. My brother right, And so my so
we're on the way and I was thinking about we were gonna do

(01:06:46):
this podcast. I was trying to tell my dad
about you. I was like, I'm just gonna so I
played your your dry bar. So it was like, Oh well, last
the whole ride and I'll just plug my phone and we can hit
list because it does well, you know, for radio, you know.
I'm honored that you that you loved it.

(01:07:06):
He. Thought you were whole.
He was laughing and laughing thewhole entire time.
He's he's one of my heroes abouthumor and getting through the
world with humor. If I didn't have his humor, I
don't know, I'd probably be in adifferent place.
Thank you for first of all, thank you for that compliment

(01:07:26):
and sharing that about the Drybar special because it's not,
you know, to me, it's not my funniest, but it I liked it.
OK. But I also just I'm glad you
brought up your mentor. Like mine was my grandmother,
you know, my grandmother who went through some of the worst
trauma I could imagine was my humor guru, you know, and also
my ironically, my son too. So it sounds like you've got

(01:07:50):
bookends of, of like echoes of like your dad has brought it
forward and then you're passed it to your son and then they it
echoes back to you. My son and I, he's still living
at home, going to Community College.
And we laugh. Every single day we laugh.
All the time. And you know, it's funny, like
I'm still best buds with his, with my ex-husband, his dad and

(01:08:13):
his new and his new wife. And we all love each other and
we just laugh all the time. Oh, I love that.
I love that you're still friendswith everybody.
Humor helps you transcend so much, doesn't it?
Transcend and we all create stuff together and you know,
it's just lifes too short. Thank you for dropping in with
that information and say hi to your dad and tell him that

(01:08:35):
you're laughing and your son. So have a have a fun night
tonight with your family. Thank you.
Thank you. You you as well.
All right. Thanks, Allison.
Thanks so much Chance. I really appreciate it.
OK, bye take. Care bye bye.
I want to thank my guest AllisonLandoni.
Please check the show notes so that you can find her on

(01:08:58):
Psychology Today if you want to seek out some information about
therapies, art therapy, expressive therapy, maybe even
sponsor her going to Switzerlandto do that PhD program.
And thank you again for being a listener.
You make a difference. I do believe we help each other
through this journey somehow. We do this Co healing magic

(01:09:21):
thing when we hear each other another validating and then like
wait a minute, I've had something similar and here we
are and let's keep going. Remember, no matter what, keep
laughing. Traumedy is empowering.
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(01:09:45):
Every other Tuesday? I don't know.
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