Christmas True Crime: The Mysterious Disappearance of the Sodder Children

Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
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Listener discretion is advised.
Hello, everyone.
Welcome back to anotherChristmas true crime episode.
Today we are going to discussthe Sodder family and a house fire
that led to some of theirfamily members having an unknown
fate.
This story took place onChristmas Eve in 1945, and it's still

(00:46):
a mystery today.
We tried to gather any knowndetails about the family, but as
you know, with older cases,it's sometimes hard to find as much
as we're used to.
So we tried to include as muchas we could, but unfortunately there's
not a lot out there.
Now, before we get into it, asa reminder, True Creeps takes December
off from new episodes, but wewill be back with all of your favorite

(01:09):
spooky content in January.
We will miss you.
We will.
And for our Patreon members,you will not get charged for a month.
So while we're off, you don'tget charged.
So with all of that beingsaid, let's get into our story.
We are going to tell the storyin an order that we believe is easiest
to understand, as there's alot of events that may play a role
in the fire and the mystery.

(01:32):
George Sodder, born GiorgioSadu, immigrated to the United States
in 1908 when he was just 13.
He was born in Tulsa,Sardinia, in Italy.
He came to America with hisolder brother, but his brother got
homesick, so he went back to Italy.
George worked on thePennsylvania Railroad when he was
a teenager and he would carrywater and supplies to the laborers.

(01:52):
He did this for a few years.
After that, he moved toSmithers, West Virginia.
There he worked as a taxidriver before launching his own trucking
company, then did a variety of things.
I love to see the Americandream alive and well.
Yes, yes.
Came in, started, and then wasable to grow.
So he would haul dirt forconstruction and then later he hauled

(02:13):
freight and coal.
He also realized that peopleneeded goods from the railroads transported
to their homes, so he would dothat as well.
His granddaughter laterdescribed him as a modern day Amazon.
I thought that was cute.
So during this time when hehad his trucking business, George
actually ended up getting afew of his own coal mines, but he
ended up selling them becausehe lost one of his employees and

(02:35):
it broke his heart.
So he sold all of his mines.
He then resumed trucking.
I could see how you could belike, why I can't do that again.
That's too heartbreaking.
Yeah.
Like I feel like he took careof his employees a bit and like had
a good connection is what itseems like.
Yeah.
And so like losing one'sheartbreaking and it just, I don't
know, it, it gave us like alook at like what kind of man he

(02:55):
was.
Seems like a good dude.
So George met Jenny when hevisited a local store called the
Music Box.
Jenny was Jenny Cipriani atthe time.
She was the store owner's daughter.
Jenny had also come fromItaly, but it was just a toddler
when they moved.
George and Jenny got married and.
Sorry.
George and Jenny got marriedand had their 10 children between

(03:16):
1923 and 1943.
20 years, 10 children.
My goodness.
Woof.
I'm exhausted just eventhinking and.
Or hearing about it.
Yeah.
And the Sodder family lived inFayetteville, West Virginia, which
is a small Appalachian town,which, you know, we're going to then
lump this into our Appalachian series.
Of course, part of it.
It'll go on the Appalachianplaylist that we have.

(03:38):
Yes.
So the area had a small butactive Italian immigrant community.
So let's talk about the familyas they were composed in 1945.
There was George, the father,who was 50, and then there was Jenny,
who was the mom, and she wasin her early 40s as we mentioned
a moment ago.
Ten children, nine of themwere home the night of the fire.

(03:58):
Joe was drafted into the armyduring World War II and he had not
returned home yet.
John, 23, worked with hisfather before the fire.
One news article stated thathe had just come home from the military.
Marion, possibly known as MaryAnn later in life, was the eldest
daughter and she was 17 to 19years old and she worked as a shop
assistant at a dime store.

(04:19):
George Jr.
Who was 16, also worked withhis father.
There was then 14 year oldMaurice, 12 year old Martha Lewis,
who was 9, but almost 10 fromwhat we could find.
His birthday was December30th, so just a few days away from
his birthday.
Many sources list him as being10 because it was so close.
Yeah.
Then there was 8 year oldJenny, 5 year old Betty and 3 year

(04:40):
old Sylvia.
Big family.
Yes.
So for this case, we got a lotof information from old newspaper
articles.
So it's really interesting toread them.
You know, they're a lotdifferent from today's articles.
However, a lot of informationseemed to conflict between each article
and when they were published.
So some of the things will saythis is what we've seen.

(05:03):
But again, it's an old caseand a lot of it is newspaper articles.
So it's just interesting howmuch things can differ depending
on like who published it.
But anyways, per newspaperarticle, Dillard Engie, the owner
of a dry cleaning shop, saidthat the family was industrious and
close knit.
He actually worked with Georgeoften in 1945 after he opened a shop

(05:25):
and George would deliver his equipment.
So they had like a good relationship.
Dillard said, quote, theSodders were one of the most respected
middle class families around,so they had a good standing right
in their area.
Yeah.
George had very strongopinions about almost everything
though, and that includedbusiness, current events and even
politics.

(05:45):
He also didn't talk about histime in Italy and never explained
why he left.
Remember, he came with his brother.
His brother went back prettyquickly and left him alone in a brand
new country.
So I feel for the guy.
We bring this information upbecause it is a reason some theories
exist and we're going to talkabout that later.
So now that we know a littlebit about the family, let's move

(06:06):
on to Christmas Eve night, 1945.
George, John and George Jr.
Had returned home afterworking and they were exhausted.
They had a long day.
I read one article that saidthat they were busy delivering groceries
that day.
So I believe they had twotrucks between the three of them
and they were all working allday long.
So the three of them went tobed early.

(06:26):
They were done with the day.
That evening Marian had comehome and she had brought gifts for
her younger siblings and shehad saved up money while she was
working to be able to purchasethem these gifts, which is very sweet.
Good big sister.
Yeah.
The kids were stoked to playwith their new toys and they didn't
want to go to bed, so theyasked if they could stay up.

(06:47):
Classic kid behavior, right?
Yeah.
They get new toys.
They're like, yeah, who needs sleep?
We got toys.
And so they asked to stay up.
And this would have beenaround 10pm is what it's estimated.
Jenny said that they couldstay up as long as Louis and Maurice
remembered to feed thechickens and cows and make sure that
the chicken coop was locked upfor the night.
So they had like their normaldaily chores.

(07:08):
Yeah, I was like, I'm surethat they had done that a thousand
times.
Yeah, for sure.
So then Jenny took Sylvia, thelittlest one, to bed with her A few
hours later, a little aftermidnight, the phone rang and it woke
Jenny up.
The phone was located in theoffice, which was also downstairs
where her and George's room was.
She went to answer it, and sheheard an unknown female voice on

(07:30):
the other end.
The caller then asked to speakwith a man's name who Jenny didn't
know.
Jenny said something like,wrong house and hung up.
She did note, though, that thecaller laughed and she could hear
laughing and like clinking ofglasses in the background.
So maybe a party.
Christmas Eve party.
I don't know.
That's very bizarre though.
Mm.
Mm.

(07:51):
So she headed back to bed, andas she did so, she noticed that the
downstairs lights were stillon, the curtains were still open,
and the front door was unlocked.
Marion was asleep on thecouch, so she assumed the other kids
had just gone upstairs to goto bed.
She turned off the lights, orpossibly some of the lights because
it doesn't really say whichones were on, but we believe something
was on.

(08:11):
Could have been Christmaslights, by the way, but she turned
off some of the lights, closedthe curtains, locked the door, and
then headed back to bed.
Now, when Jenny was almostback to sleep, she heard a noise
that sounded like somethinghad hit the roof.
In one of the articles, itdescribed it like a rubber ball hitting
the roof, then rolling offbefore hitting the ground with like
a.
A loud thump.

(08:31):
We all can imagine that, right?
She listened to see if it wasgoing to happen again.
So she just sat there like,okay, is something like continually
happening?
Was it just something strange?
I don't know, an animal, whatever.
I can imagine that feelingthat like, okay, what was that?
You know, that pause?
Yeah.
And you're like, okay, itdidn't happen again.
It's safe to just go back to sleep.
So she dismissed it.

(08:52):
She tried to go back to sleep.
Now, when Jenny woke up again,it was around 1am and it was to smoke
pouring into her bedroom.
She jumped up to see what wasgoing on and she opened the door
to the adjoining room wherethe phone was and it was also filled
with smoke.
She yelled at George to wakeup and he jumped up immediately.
She also yelled for Marian toget up and grab Sylvia because remember,

(09:13):
she was just like out in thenext room.
Yeah.
And she was just three.
Yeah.
Sylvia is just three.
So she's a baby, right?
Yeah, yeah.
She has no idea what's happening.
So Marian goes in, grabsSylvia from her bed, which was within
the parents room, just topaint the picture, and she ran outside.
Mind you, it's a very cold night.
They're in, like, their bedclothes, right.
So no shoes, no anything.

(09:34):
They just run outside.
Now, Jenny runs to the atticstairs where the children would have
been sleeping and yelled for them.
I believe it should have justbeen the older kids up there, though.
And some sources say it wasGeorge that ran over to yell for
the kids and that he includeddirections for them to wake up and
then wake up.
The other children, John andGeorge Jr.
Stumble down and they eitherrun outside or they're with their

(09:56):
dad for a few minutes.
Now, when they did make itoutside, they did singe their hair
on the way out.
So just like telling you howbig this fire was, now George yelled
towards the next room wherethe kids should have been sleeping,
and he thought he may haveheard an answer.
Now, this is a debated thing, though.
Some say that he heard avoice, and some say that he never
heard anything, but it wasjust so chaotic.

(10:16):
He was just trying to geteveryone out.
There is one source, though,that mentioned that John may have
said at one point that he wentinto the room where the kids were
sleeping and shook them towake them up.
But later there's speculationthat he may have just said that out
of guilt because that's whathe wished he would have done, is
gone to, like, find the restof his siblings.
Yeah.

(10:37):
So unknown.
So either the two older boysran outside, or, like I mentioned,
they helped their dad.
And from what I understand, hewas trying to get back upstairs where
the kids would have been, butthe fire took the staircase.
Like, it was just covered in flames.
There was no way.
Yeah.
So he was just trying tofigure out, how else can I get up
to the second floor?
So Jenny and George made itoutside, but quickly realized that

(11:00):
five of the kids were not outside.
We're going to talk aboutGeorge's attempts to save his children.
We're not sure of the orderthat these happened in, so we're
just.
We're going to talk aboutthem, but they happened perhaps not
in this order.
Also, as a side note, it'sbeen a moment since we reminded you,
but my dog Moose snores veryloudly and she's snoozing right now.
So let's talk about those attempts.

(11:20):
George grabbed a bucket,hoping to fill it with water, but
the water barrel, slash rainbarrel, was frozen solid because
it was a very cold night in December.
From what we understand bythis point, the stairs inside were
covered in flames, making itimpossible for George to safely get
upstairs to look for the kids.
But it did not stop him from trying.
He searched the downstairsrooms but did not find any of his
children.

(11:40):
The downstairs rooms consistedof a living room, a dining room,
kitchen, office and theparents bedroom.
What he believed was that thefive missing children were likely
upstairs on the second floor,likely in two bedrooms on opposite
ends of the hallway.
The bedrooms would have beenseparated by the staircase.
That's horrific to think of.
It's horrific to think of interms of like, well, first off, the

(12:02):
staircase is gone.
You cannot get up there, whichmeans that they can't get down.
And you're like, okay, if Iget up there, which way do I run
first?
Yeah.
So he tried to scale thehouse's wall but wasn't able to.
He ran for his ladder that wasalways left in the same place, but
it wasn't where it normally was.
Then him and the two boystried to back their two trucks to

(12:25):
the house so that they couldstand on top of them to reach the
stairs.
But the engines wouldn't turnover, which was strange because they
had worked fine on ChristmasEve, which was like the night before.
Yeah.
Because remember this is likethe wee morning, so just hours before
these were working.
Also it says something thatthey were willing to back up gasoline

(12:46):
machines to the fire.
You know what I mean?
Like they are trying literallyanything they can.
So during all of this, at onepoint George broke a window and he
cut his arm, which he waslater treated at the hospital for.
His voice also hurt fromscreaming his children's names, which
I would imagine, like, how doyou just the sound that would come
from a person if they knewthat someone they loved was in a

(13:07):
burning building, especiallyif they were a kid, at least they
would know you were trying.
Yes.
So Marian ran to theneighbor's home to see if she could
call the volunteer firedepartment, but wasn't able to get
a hold of the night operator.
And the neighbor blamed theirparty line system, which as a reminder,
a party line system is whenseveral people have one phone line.

(13:28):
A different neighbor who sawthe fire from a nearby tavern also
tried but wasn't able to get aresponse either.
They ended up driving to townto get help and found the fire chief,
F.J.
morris.
He initiated what we will calltheir version of a fire alarm.
This consisted of a phone treesystem where one firefighter calls
another who calls anotherbecause again, volunteer firefighter

(13:49):
system in the 1940s in a small area.
Yeah.
And that's time consuming.
Yeah.
And the firehouse, which wasjust two and a half miles away, did
not arrive until 8am and as areminder, Jenny woke up to the smoke
pouring into her bedroom at1am so it took hours and hours for
the fire department to be ableto get there, which is bizarre.

(14:10):
Steve Cruickshank, afirefighter in 2016, later said,
Back then, there was verylittle training.
Everyone was a volunteer, andthey didn't have much equipment.
Another source mentioned thatthe fire department had been depleted
by the war and that the firechief couldn't drive the truck and
needed to wait for someone who could.
Oh, that's stressful and sosad because.

(14:30):
Yeah, I mean, what else couldthey have done?
I mean, I feel like he shouldhave been able to drive the truck,
but outside of that, witheveryone being, like, called to the
war.
Yeah.
So by the time the firedepartment arrived, the house was
completely gone.
All that remained was ashes.
Officials would later describethe fire as one of the worst fires
in the town's history.
The family assumed the missingchildren had died in the fire, but

(14:52):
when them and authoritiessifted through what was left, they
didn't find any remains.
So to paint the picture, thefire department arrives, they pour
some water on what was still,you know, smoldering.
And then them and the familysifted through, but didn't find any
sign of the children.
And when we say any sign ofthe children, we mean bones.

(15:13):
Yes, but we don't believe thatthey searched very long because it
was either late morning orearly afternoon when they announced
that nothing was found.
So thinking about, like, howthey had to put it out, that would
take a little bit of time tomake it cool enough to be able to,
like, sift through.
So I just.
I don't think it happened very long.
Also, remember, it's ChristmasDay, too.
So some say, like, that's whyit was kind of like, well, I mean,

(15:36):
we can't save them, so this iswhat we can do.
And then other places say,well, they just did it quickly.
It wasn't done correctly, andthey may have planned on coming back
to search more in the future,but they're just like, it's Christmas
Day.
We can't do it today.
F.J.
morris suggested that the firehad been hot enough to completely
cremate the bodies, includingtheir bones.

(15:59):
To note, none of the familymembers ever saw movement in any
of the windows, and no onereported smelling burning flesh.
So them nor any of theneighbors that gathered.
I also do think the mind woulddelete that smell from your brain.
I think that trauma would.
Yeah, would make you justselect all.
Delete for the family, I would say.

(16:19):
So.
I just don't know if theneighbors, you know, I don't know.
That's a toss up.
No.
Even if I don't know a person,if I'm smelling a person burning,
I hope my brain does a.
Does a thing where it's like,fuck it.
Absolutely not.
You don't need to rememberwhat that smells like, you know,
like, yeah, that's fair,that's fair.
But I mean, no one did seeanyone in any of the upstairs windows
either.
That's what I find strange, isbecause they would have woken up

(16:41):
at some point if they were inthere and alive.
Agreed.
So let's talk about theinvestigation and the findings.
And I say investigation very loosely.
State police and arepresentative of the state fire
marshal's office blamed faultywiring as the cause for the fire.
They believed that it was ashort circuit in the wiring in the

(17:03):
rear of the home.
But then in one source, itsaid that the family later found
out that the fire started onthe roof.
Now, we also want to note thatit was windy that night, so it could
have been the reason why thefire spread so quickly.
So as far as the house goes,it was completely burned.
Right.
However, the basement wasstill semi present.
George used a bulldozer tocover that basement with about 5ft

(17:27):
of dirt to make a memorial forthe kids on December 29th.
So just a few days later.
And he may have done thisbefore authorities were able to conduct
a more complete search of the property.
So I know he was grieving.
He was just like, they're dead.
We need to, like, do somethingpositive for them.
Sad either way.
I cannot fathom parents havinga possible gravesite for their children

(17:52):
where they sifted through,covering up the site of where their
children's remains would be ifthey hadn't, like, gone through and,
like, touched everything, Dug everywhere.
Yes, they had gone through andbeen like, if our babies were here,
we would have found them.
Correct.
Yeah.
So, like, the family, fromwhat I saw, they did several extended

(18:14):
searches by themselves withoutauthorities present.
But again, some articles kindof contradict each other as to what
they did, how they did it, howlong they did it, and that sort of
thing.
And then after he covered itwith dirt, they either planted flowers
over the space where the houseused to be, or they were making plans
to do so.
About a week after the fire onDecember 30, 1945, death certificates

(18:35):
were issued for the fivemissing children.
A coroner's inquest had beenheld, and the fire was ruled accidental.
But because they didn't findproof that the children died in the
fire, George and Jenny haddoubts the kids were dead, and they
suspected that they may havebeen kidnapped and that the fire
was set intentionally.
This took a big turn.
A big turn.

(18:55):
But also, I mean, I feel like.
I feel like we hinted to it,we were like.
She assumed they were upstairs.
Mm.
Yes.
So there were a few differentreasons why they suspected that the
children were actually missingand not dead.
First, they had the wiring intheir house checked a few months
before the fire in the fall bythe power company.
They said it was in safeworking order.

(19:15):
And we did see at some pointthat they had installed an electric
stove.
So that may have been why theyhad someone come out.
Makes sense.
Additionally, Jenny noticedthe lights were on shortly before
the fire, and some sources saysome lights were still on during
the fire.
Earlier, Amanda mentioned thelightsaber, and that's why we brought
up that she may not haveturned out all of the lights when
she had gotten up earlier.

(19:36):
Because people said they saw lights.
Yeah.
Now, the lights that werestill on during the fire also may
have been some of theChristmas lights inside the house.
But think about this.
If it was wiring or, you know,there was something wrong with it,
or there was a short circuit,wouldn't the lights be off because
they're powered by electricity.
Bizarre.
Especially during the fire.
Yeah.
So as the fire's going on andthere's still lights that you can

(19:59):
see inside, it just doesn'tseem like everything would have been.
Yeah, I don't know.
Any sort of wiring.
Yeah.
And also, like, when you have,like, a short circuit, like, it's
sparking and, like, weirdthings are happening to the wires.
The first thing that happens,from my understanding, is like, power's
lost.
So another strange thing aboutthat wiring.
A few months before the fire,a stranger had come to the house

(20:19):
asking about, you know, if hecould get some more calling.
And he went to the back of thehouse, pointed to two separate fuse
boxes and said, this is goingto cause a fire someday.
George didn't think anythingof it because he had just had it
checked by the power companyand they had said it was fine.
That's also just like a verystrange, like, that's going to cause
a fire.
I'm like, I don't fucking know you.
Right.

(20:39):
Also, explain yourself.
Yeah.
Then there's that strangephone call that happened.
Another reason why they'relike, maybe they're missing.
Then the strange noise on theroof right before.
And then the fact that theladder that was always in the same
place had been moved.
They later found it, quote,sometime after the fire.
And it was 75 to 80ft over anembankment near the house.

(21:02):
Fucking weird.
And then adding more strangeness.
The truck's not starting.
So here we have thiscollection of strange instances that
are happening right around thetime of the fire and these children
going missing.
So it seems like there's a lotgoing on, More than just a fire.
Yes, yes.
And so let's piggyback off ofthose strange occurrences and we're

(21:24):
going to lean into the kidspossibly being kidnapped because
there's also some strangethings that happened to the family.
Some before the fire and someobservations after the fire.
So two months before the fire,the family was visited by a life
insurance salesman.
This one gets me.
George had worked with himuntil 1943, but they parted ways.

(21:45):
And it seems like it wasn'tin, like, a good way.
They weren't happy with each other.
After they parted ways, thatsame man was the co signer of the
family's $1,500 home insuranceand had increased the amount to $1,750
without their knowledge.
Suspicious.
Very weird.
Very suspicious.
Right.
So he came over to try to talk.

(22:06):
George and Jenny to take outlife insurance on their children.
Do not like this.
No.
When he realized that hewasn't going to make a sale, he became
super pissed off and yelled at George.
He said something along thelines of, your goddamn house is going
to burn up in smoke and yourchildren are going to be destroyed.
You are going to be paid forthe dirty remarks you have been making

(22:28):
about Mussolini.
We couldn't find more detailson this interaction, Only that the
salesman got mad and then hesaid something along those remarks.
Very bizarre.
Very bizarre.
Who threatens someone'schildren over like, a business sale?
Suspicious.
Suspicious.
Yes.
And we're going to bring it up later.
But George was pretty vocal inthe community about not liking Mussolini

(22:51):
and sometimes gotten reallyheated debates with people which
like, okay, when thisinteraction happened with the salesman,
George didn't think anythingof it.
He didn't think the threat was real.
He was just like, this guy's pissed.
And trying to make a sale.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now, from what we saw, wedidn't see any proof that the salesman
was ever questioned, which isvery concerning.

(23:12):
That.
Does that make any fucking sense?
No.
No.
A few days before the fire,the older sons noticed a weird man
watching the younger kidsarrive home from school.
He also may have done thisseveral times, according to some
news articles.
And basically what happened isthis strange man was parked in his
car and, like, would watch thekids go home.

(23:34):
Dislike.
Dislike that.
Yep.
Another Weird thing.
A telephone repair man toldthe family that it looks like their
phone lines had been cut, not burned.
So when he came after thefire, he's like, by the way, hmm,
Another weird thing, becausethe phone also worked shortly before
the fire.
A witness later came forwardand said that he saw a man at the

(23:55):
scene of the fire taking ablock and tackle, which is used for
removing car engines.
However, later, the man, hewas identified as Lonnie Johnson,
did plead guilty to stealingthe block and tackle, but he said
he was not involved with the fire.
He also may have admitted tocutting the lines on the house, thinking
that they were power lines.

(24:16):
And it could have been thephone line, which is still weird.
Like, if he's stealingsomething, I don't know why he would
be cutting lines.
Also, to note, the phone lineswere 14ft above the ground and 2ft
from the utility pole.
So, like, it's not an easything to reach.
And I didn't see this anywhere.
But I don't know if maybe hewas the one that moved the ladder.
I don't know how big theladder was, but, like, also, why.

(24:38):
Why would he be doing that?
It makes no sense to me.
He also may have droppedsomething on the house, like, when
he was doing that, because thepower, like, they would be near the
house.
So weird.
Weird.
But he did.
He got in trouble for stealingduring all of this chaos.
Additionally, Lonnie was laterquestioned by a private investigator

(24:58):
that the Sodders hired.
He allegedly said somethinglike, quote, getting damn tired of
taking the rap for thosepeople in Fayetteville.
So many speculate that hemaybe was hired to do something,
but nothing was ever confirmed.
Also, just to paint thepicture, as the fire's going on,
lots of neighbors crowdedaround the home, so it likely was

(25:19):
chaos.
And not everyone was seeingwhat everyone was doing.
Everyone's, like, focused onthe fire.
Yes.
So when the family went backto the area to visit the memorial
George had made, possiblymonths later, Sylvia, the youngest
kid, found a hard rubberobject in the yard.
It was, quote, military green,hollow, and had a twist off cap.
Jenny believed that it was theitem that she had heard hit the roof

(25:42):
a bit before the fire.
George inspected the objectand believed it to be a napalm pineapple
bomb.
Later, some news articles evenstated that the army authorities
confirmed that it was a napalm bomb.
That's terrifying.
Terrifying.
There was also a late nightbus driver who said they remembered
seeing, quote, balls of firebeing tossed onto the roof.

(26:03):
I just feel like, why wouldn'tyou call Someone, then.
I don't know.
I don't know.
It just seems like there's somany fucking weird things, right?
Yes.
Jenny, in an effort to figureout if her children died in the fire,
started experimenting withburning various types of animal bones
to see what would happen.
But every time charred boneswere left, she also saw a newspaper

(26:27):
article that there was a housesimilar to hers that had burned down
and killed seven people.
In that home, all sevenskeletons were found.
Jenny also spoke with someonewho worked in cremation.
They told her that some boneswere left behind after cremation.
Even when burned at 2,000degrees for two hours, the home only

(26:47):
really burned for 45 minutes.
And also, when looking at theremains of their home, they saw parts
of the household appliances inthat rubble.
So clearly it wasn't a firethat was like, burning everything
recognizable to complete ash.
So it wouldn't have been hot.
It wouldn't have been, like,above 2,000 degrees.
Is what we're saying herethat, like, if they can still recognize

(27:08):
things, then it likely wasn'tthat 2000 degree heat.
Right.
Or it burned differentlydepending on different rooms, perhaps.
Mm.
There's a lot of questions.
Yes.
The parent.
So Jenny and George trulybelieved that their kids could still
be alive.
And they had other reasons, inaddition to everything that we've
already given, to believe itmight be possible.
For example, there werereported sightings of the children

(27:31):
over the years, and there werestrange things that happened during
the investigation.
So one sighting happened thenight of the fire.
A woman claimed to have seenthe kids in a car that drove by while
the fire was still happening.
So Sad.
Yeah.
About 50 miles northwest oftheir home, another witness saw them
on Christmas.
She operated at a localtourist stop, and she said that she

(27:52):
saw the kids that Christmasmorning and that she'd served them
breakfast.
She also knew that there was acar with Florida license plates parked
in their parking lot then in Charleston.
So we're moving south, by the way.
Another woman reported seeingfour of the five kids about a week
after the fire at a Charleston hotel.
In her statement, she said thechildren were accompanied by two

(28:12):
women and two men, all ofItalian extraction.
I do not remember the exact date.
However, the entire party didregister at the hotel and stayed
in a large room with several beds.
They registered about midnight.
I tried to talk to thechildren in a friendly manner, but
the men appeared hostile andrefused to allow me to talk to these
children.
One of the men looked at me ina hostile manner.

(28:34):
He turned around and begantalking rapidly in Italian.
Immediately, the whole Partystopped talking to me.
I sensed that I was beingfrozen out.
And so I said nothing more.
They left early the next morning.
That's scary.
That's very scary.
A few years later, George wasreading the newspaper and saw a photo
of school children in New York City.
One of the kids looked justlike Betty.

(28:55):
So he drove up to New York tosee if he could find any information.
And he was able to track downthose kids, the kids parents, but
they wouldn't talk to him.
Could you even.
I can't even.
My heart just breaks for him.
Mm.
Mm.
And just that years later,he's sitting there still, like, with
the hope that.
His kids are alive.
And then seeing a picture andbeen like, I found one.
Yeah.

(29:15):
And then being let down.
Well, and it's also.
If I found one, if I can findone, then maybe that means, you know,
like.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Then in 1947, Jenny and Georgetried to get the FBI involved in
their case.
They offered to help, but theFayetteville police and fire department
denied their offer to assist.
Fuck off.
Yeah.

(29:36):
So then they moved on.
Right.
They tried to hire a private investigator.
His name was C.C.
tinsley.
I did see some news articlescall him Oscar Tinsley.
But there was also a man namedTinsley with, I believe, the name
Oscar.
So it may have been amisspelling, I'm not sure.
But anyways, somethingTinsley, perhaps.
What he was able to find isthat the coroner's jury who deemed

(29:58):
the fire an accident includeda suspicious person.
Hmm.
It was that fucking salesmanthat had freaked out on George.
He was within the coroner's jury.
Again, he was never questionedand he was a prominent member of
the community, so no onelooked at him twice.
I fucking hate it.
Also, the private detectiveinterviewed people in the town.

(30:19):
In his interviews, he heardthat there was a rumor that the fire
chief had found a heart orpossibly some other remains in the
ashes of the home.
I don't think you'd find an organization.
No.
Right.
That's fucking weird.
Just a lone organ.
Bizarre.
No.
So it was either in aninterview or Morris straight up told
the family about it.
I'm not sure how they finallygot the information.

(30:42):
Some speculate that maybesomething was found, but maybe Morris
didn't follow the rightprotocol that morning with the found
remains.
So kind of debated.
Anyways, he claimed thatwhatever he found, he put in a box
and buried it where the home was.
Which isn't the right thing todo, right?
Very weird.
Tinsley talked the fire chiefinto showing him where the box was

(31:05):
buried.
He dug it up and it turned outnot to be a heart, but a beef liver.
It also had no evidence ofever being in a fire, because like
you said, like an organ makingit through a fire but not a bone
is very weird.
Yeah, very, very weird.
Then the family heard otherrumors about Morris saying that he
didn't find the organizationin the remains of the house, like,

(31:27):
at all, but he had buried thebeef liver in the rubble in hopes
that finding any remains wouldplacate the family enough to stop
investigating.
Well, why?
Why have them stop investigating?
You know?
And that's kind of debated.
So it's like either he wastrying to give them mercy and just
have some sort of closure thattheir kids were gone, but then other

(31:48):
people are like, why the fuckwould he do that?
Like, if you found somethingthat day, you should have said something.
And then others are like,well, it was Christmas Day.
Like they just wanted to getout of there.
But then, like, returning andburying something, I don't know.
I'm all over the place with it.
It seems so weird.
So others believe that he mayhave done this because a rumor did
start that someone foundsomething, and so then he went and

(32:12):
put something there just sothe family would find something and
again get some sort of closure.
I don't know.
Either way, it sounds soweird, but again, remember, it was
all volunteer firefighters, too.
So with the lack of trainingthat we brought up, perhaps someone
did find something but thendidn't do anything about it, and
then he was trying to leavesomething for closure again, just

(32:33):
like a big debate.
Yeah.
In 1949, the family hired apathologist, Oscar B.
Hunter.
He excavated the dirt on topof the buried basement, and he was
able to find four shards of bones.
They were human vertebrae, sowe sent them to the Smithsonian to
be analyzed further.
They believed that the boneshad come from a 16 to 17 year old
person.

(32:53):
And the report said since thetransverse recesses are fused, the
age of this individual atdeath should have been 16 or 17.
The top limit of age should beabout 22, since the centra, which
normally fuse at 23, are still unfused.
On this basis, the bones showgreater skeletal maturation than
one would expect for a 14 yearold boy.
As a note, the oldest missingchild was Maurice, who was 14.

(33:16):
It is, however, possible,although not probable, for a boy
14 and a half years old toshow age 16 to 17 maturation.
So that's weird, right?
Like there's something found,but it doesn't really match.
Yeah, it doesn't really match,but it could, but.
It could, but it might not.
I mean, I just feel likethat's a big jump.

(33:38):
And even more bizarre, thebones had no evidence of being exposed
to fire.
So they believe that the bonesmay have originated from the dirt
that George used to fill thebasement, which is also unsettling.
That's also incredibly unsettling.
I would also say that ifsomeone's out here putting, like,
biological material into thecrime scene or asking like.

(33:59):
Or acting like that'shappening, I could see them putting
bones in there, too.
So it could have just beenfrom, like, a grave.
Yeah.
So, unfortunately, DNA testingdidn't exist at this time, so they
couldn't find out who thebones came from.
The bones were ultimatelygiven back to George, and no one
knows what happened to themafter that.
Another thing to note in thatreport is that they said one would
expect to find full skeletonsof five children rather than just

(34:22):
four vertebrae.
When the Smithsonian releasedthe information, the governor of
West Virginia, Ohio,Pattinson, called a hearing in the
state capitol building in Charleston.
There, he officially declaredthe case as closed.
And then just moving fullyfrom this to another very bizarre
fact.
The family received a letterthat the oldest missing daughter,

(34:44):
Martha, who was 12 at the timethat she went missing, was in a Convent
in St.
Louis.
What?
So varying informations, right?
Yes.
Like, they're alive.
Here's proof that they're dead.
Oh, no, they're alive.
Again, just.
I cannot imagine this poorfamily and, like, what they went
through.
Yeah.
So let's talk about some other possibilities.

(35:07):
Someone in Florida said thatthe children were living with one
of Jenny's distant family members.
Jenny did have a brother namedFrank Cipriani in Florida, and they
thought that that could be a possibility.
Police in Miami didinvestigate the claim by looking
through birth and schoolrecords, but the child that was in
Frank's care ended up beinghis own.

(35:29):
So let's move on to anotherpossible clue.
Someone in Houston, Texas,said that they overheard an incriminating
conversation about a long agoChristmas Eve fire in West Virginia
from someone at a bar.
Weird bar conversation.
The story has changed in a fewdifferent places, but either the
incriminating conversationhappened, or there was a drunken

(35:52):
man claiming to be Lewis.
So some strange conversationhappened in this bar.
George investigated many, ifnot all, the claims and didn't find
any information.
There are some articles thatsay that his search continued in
various places and that hetraveled to so many places, including
Maryland.
But we couldn't find definitedetails for each claim, only that

(36:14):
they were investigated.
There is one, though, that wecould find some details on.
And it was in Texas.
And it happened years later in 1967.
And at this time, George wasnot in good health.
Him and his son in law droveto Texas.
I believe his son in law drovehim there because of his health.
The woman who wrote the letterrefused to talk to them.

(36:35):
So George was able to trackdown the man that she had spoke about
and his brother.
They were very nice, but theywere not helpful at all.
He left immediately after.
So after he talked to them andthe two drove all the way back home.
Later, in an interview in2013, Sylvia, remember, she was three
at the time of the fire, so anadult now.

(36:56):
She said, quote, I think therewas always some doubt in his mind.
I think he always wondered ifthose were his boys and if he'd made
a mistake leaving so quickly.
And I feel like, yeah, like I.
I would probably have thatdoubt in my mind too, because he's
in poor health.
He drove all the way to Texasto explore, you know, another letter
that they had received.

(37:17):
And then he finds these boysthat could be his, but they're not
helpful.
I don't know.
It's weird.
Yeah.
And just so exhaustinglyheartbreaking for him.
Oh, yeah.
Like, he tried.
He was dedicated.
Now this one is fucking weird.
In 1968, Jenny received mailaddressed to her, but there was no

(37:39):
return address.
It was postmarked in Kentucky,though, so.
So they kind of knowwhereabouts right now.
In the letter, there was aphotograph of a man in his mid-20s.
George and Jenny both believedthat this could be Lewis.
Remember, he was 9 at the timeof the fire.
This would have been 23 years later.
They believed that the man hadthe same eyes as their son, the same

(38:00):
hair color and the same nose.
On the back of the photo, itsaid, Louis Sodder.
I love brother Frankie.
Lil.
Boys.
A 90132 or 35.
Chaotic, right?
Just random numbers.
No idea what this means.
It's both too much and toolittle information.
Yes.
Yes.
So the Sodders never revealedwhat was in the message with the

(38:23):
photo, nor the town that thepostmark came from, because they
thought that it could puttheir son at risk.
So if he had somehow beenkidnapped or made it out that if
whoever did this found that hewas communicating with them, that
something bad could happen to him.
Mm.
So it's so sad.
There have been so manytheories surrounding this picture

(38:44):
and the writing on the back ofit and, like, what it could mean.
Some believe that the A numberwas a zip code.
Others have mentioned thatFrankie was A nickname that Lewis
used to call Maurice.
And this likely wouldn't havebeen well known outside of, like,
the family and maybe school orfriends or, you know, small, tight
knit community.

(39:05):
So that's bizarre.
You know, it said, I lovebrother Frankie.
I don't know, that's just likeeither someone really fucking with
them to be an asshole or itmeans something.
So after this weird pictureletter situation, the family hired
a private detective to go toKentucky to look for him.
Fair.
I've never said this before.
I don't think in any case, butthe fucking detective disappeared.

(39:29):
He was not heard of again.
Mm.
It's unknown what happened to him.
I could not find anything.
I couldn't even find hisspecific details.
But some theorize that he justtook the money and bailed.
And then others are like,maybe something happened to him.
He figured it out then.
In 1954, George and Jenny setup a billboard on Route 16, and it

(39:50):
included the pictures of thechildren, their ages, and information
about their kidnapping.
And so what's interesting isthat over time, as they received
more information, they addedmore to it.
So one final update said, OnChristmas Eve, 1945, our home was
set afire and five of ourchildren, ages 5 through 14, kidnapped.

(40:10):
The officials blamed defectivewiring, although lights were still
burning after the fire started.
The official report statedthat the children died in the fire.
However, no bones were foundin the residue and there was no smell
of burning flesh during orafter the fire.
What was the motive of the lawofficers involved?
What did they have to gain bymaking us suffer all of these years

(40:33):
of injustice?
Why did they lie and force usto accept those lies?
And so even more interestingis they had the pictures of the five
children.
They added a sixth photo in1967, when they got that new photo
of Lewis and noted that he wasin a different state.
So they had his child photoand then him as an adult.
Mm.
There was also a $10,000reward that was offered by George

(40:57):
and Jenny, which.
That's a lot of fucking moneyat that time.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
It's a lot of fucking money now.
So.
So much more than.
They also passed out flyerswith the information.
The reward information stayedup for many years until about 1984,
when Jenny asked John to paintover that message because she had
no more money to spend on the search.
Just break your heart.

(41:17):
Yeah.
I think it makes sense tospend every cent you can.
It does.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
You shouldn't only giveinformation about missing people
because there's something init for you.
You should Be a decent fucking human.
Yes.
The billboard was up almost 40years and was taken down after Jenny
died in 1976.
Someone shot at the billboardand Jenny was asked why she never

(41:37):
reported the vandalism.
And she said, what's the use?
If we had the right kind oflaw here, they would have done something
30 years ago.
There's more important thingsthan a billboard.
Breaks my heart enraged for her.
She also mentioned thatsomeone had shot at her roof at one
point while she was in thebackyard gardening and she lived
next to the sign.
She thought that maybe theyhad even tried to shoot her.

(41:59):
She mentioned she wasn'tscared, though.
And she said, look, if I wasgoing to die, I would have died in
that fire 30 years ago.
I'm going to fight this thingout and nothing is going to give
me to give up hope that mychildren are still alive.
After this instance, a fencewas built around her home with a
locked motorized gate toprotect her.
Her living children also toldher to shoot anyone who tried to

(42:19):
get in.
Fair.
I just like, imagine though,she lives by this fucking sign.
So she sees them in the signevery day.
It kind of reminds me of Asia Degree.
Right.
Like they had that sign up bythe main road.
Yes.
But like she lived next to ituntil she died.
Mm.
Yeah.
George died in 1969 when hewas 74, and Jenny died in 1989 when

(42:43):
she was 85.
They died still believing thattheir children were out there somewhere.
And after the fire, Jenny onlywore black as a sign of mourning
until she passed away.
And as we mentioned before,the billboard came down after she
died.
I also being the survivingsiblings and being like, we no longer
have our mom, understandably.
So your mom is now looking forher missing children, so she can't

(43:06):
be present for birthdays andChristmas and all the fun things
of life because she isthinking of the ones who are not
there also reasonably so, butit does make it just a different
type of hard.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's all the informationabout the actual case, what happened,
the fire, going throughnewspaper articles.

(43:26):
And even some people havewritten things online about either,
you know, people they knew inthe area or they knew one of the
children.
Just a lot of different things.
Now we're going to move intothe theories because like we said
at the beginning, this isstill a mystery.
We don't know what happened tothe kids, if they passed away, if
they were kidnapped or if theywere kidnapped, why.

(43:48):
But many theories to answerthese questions.
The first theory is George hadsome sort of enemy because he was
Very vocal about not likingMussolini, which caused some pretty
intense debates within the community.
It could have been a hatecrime attributed to the war or possibly
people in the community thatwere just super pissed off that he
would speak ill of the old country.

(44:10):
That's fair.
So that, that's interesting, right?
Like, who would have been this enemy?
And if it was because of theway that he discussed stuff or if
it was attributed to the warand all that was going on because
there was a lot of hate for immigrants.
It was, was, is now, you know.
So additionally, peoplespeculated that because he never

(44:34):
really talked about why heleft Italy, that maybe he had left
because of something shady.
But to remind you, he cameover at 13 years old.
So I have a hard timebelieving this theory.
I mean, I'm sure back then 13year olds were like adults now, right?
Like, yeah, they worked, theydid a lot more.
But I still in my heart feellike that's weird.
I could see how maybe thebrother brought him here to get him

(44:56):
out of a situation, maybe sothat he wasn't a part of it.
And he was like, before theyhave you do stuff, I'm going to.
That's a sweet way to think of it.
I'm going to take you away.
Or maybe like, like, I can'tget out, but I can, I can get you
out.
Which is why I went back.
Or I was even thinking like,if he offended someone or did something
that would get him in trouble,his brother taking him here, they're

(45:17):
going back home.
Yeah, that totally could be it.
We did find a PBS article thatspecifically listed Sardinia and
the immigration from there tothe U.S.
it said, quote, between 1880and 1924, more than 4 million Italians
immigrated to the UnitedStates, half of them between 1900

(45:38):
and 1910 alone.
The majority fleeing rulepoverty in southern Italy and Sicily.
So it could have played a rolein to why the boys came here.
Right.
Like a lot of people werecoming, especially in that area.
Yeah.
Again, we don't, we don't knowfor sure, but I mean, that is a reason.
Right.
And just to add to this, in1968, George did say, quote, it's

(46:01):
hard sometimes to get to sleepat night just wondering about them.
After all, if someone wantedto get me, why would they get my
family too?
And so I.
Some people are like, well,that shows that he knew he had an
enemy.
I don't know if that says itor just he's trying to figure out
why.
I think that you have to gothrough every possible reason and

(46:22):
someone had beef with thechildren, it's not high on the list.
I feel like I would be moreinclined to blame myself, you know,
be like, it was somebody whowas mad at me, not somebody who wanted
to hurt my kids.
Because, like, what do they do?
They're just babies.
Right, Right.
There's also speculation thatsome of the locals knew something
was going to happen thatnight, and that's why someone called

(46:43):
them before the fire, hopingto wake the family up so that they
wouldn't be, like, in a deepsleep when it happened.
Mm.
I don't know that.
That's also, like, aninteresting one to think about.
Oh.
And that could explain whythey said the wrong name.
Because they couldn't be like,get out of the house.
But they could say a strange name.
Yes.
Another theory is the Mafiawas involved.

(47:04):
I feel like when people talkabout Italian families, like, the
Mafia being involved is, like,high on the list automatically, which.
I don't know.
I don't know.
It's just an observation.
According to one source, somefamily members had this theory, but
we couldn't find any concreteevidence that this first part that
I'm going to mention in asecond happened.
So apparently the local Mafiabranch tried to recruit George and

(47:26):
he declined.
Or that he had been involvedwith the Italian Mafia.
Now, they tried to extortmoney out of him, but he refused.
And the theory goes that thechildren were kidnapped by someone
they knew, someone who cameinto the unlocked door that night,
told them about the fire, andoffered to take them to safety.
If that was Lewis in thephoto, the children likely didn't

(47:48):
contact their parents in orderto protect them.
So sweet.
But also, I don't know.
It's a weird one.
Yeah.
That doesn't sit with him.
That's a weird one.
And if he was involved in theItalian Mafia, he was either 113
or he was not honest about his age.
Maybe another option.
Right.
13 and 16.

(48:08):
That's three years.
But anyway, when talking aboutthese theories about enemies, many
people find it strange thatthe kids that were allowed to stay
up were the ones that wentmissing or died.
And what kind of goes withthat logic is.
Is it that someone kidnappedthem from the home, or is it that
they were actually lured outof the home by someone trying to

(48:29):
save them before the fire started?
I would also say there's,like, also an option where someone
lures them out of the home,not to save them, but to kidnap them.
Just sees that kids are up, ormaybe that guy that was watching
them for a while.
Remember, they had to go outside.
Right.
To Put the chickens away.
I don't know if that happened.
I couldn't find anything thatsaid they did or didn't.

(48:50):
But if they had gone outside, maybe.
I don't know.
Well, I would say it would bevery strange if they hadn't gone
out to lock the chickens up,because, like, otherwise, foxes would
have gotten them.
Like, they would have.
Like the chickens would have died.
Chickens left to their owndevices will not survive the night
often, especially in wintertime when predators are extra hungry
and having a harder timefinding food.

(49:11):
So I would imagine they wouldhave gone outside.
Yeah.
And that that would have beenan easier place to abduct them rather
than doing it in the housewith other people around.
Another theory is that theSodders were targeted by the KKK
or a similar hate group.
Amanda just mentioned this,but there was a massive influx of
immigrants from Italy cominginto America in the late 1800s and

(49:35):
early 1900s.
And just like today, peopleblamed them for the problems that
we were facing in our country,like people not being able to find
work and crime and things like that.
And there was also religioustension between Italians and the
kkk.
But if you're thinking ofother reasons why hate groups may
have particularly dislikedItalians, it would be because of

(49:58):
the recent war.
And an interesting note isthat the fire was December 24th of
1945, which is the anniversaryof the formation of the KKK, which
happened on December 24th of 1865.
So is it a strong link?
No, but it's a link.

(50:20):
Yeah.
And they.
They were known for doingstuff with fire, too, right?
There is some overlap there.
Yeah.
Another theory is that thekids were kidnapped and taken to
Italy or that the kids were sold.
Some say that they were takento an orphanage or to the, quote,
baby black market, or thatmaybe they were just human trafficked,
heavy.

(50:40):
So another theory is that anangry World War II veteran seeking
revenge on an Italian causedthe fire.
Fucked up.
Fucked up.
John, the eldest son, told theRoanoke Times in 1984 that, quote,
the fire marshal was eitherpaid off or.
Or they didn't push it.
It's a way of life in Fayette County.

(51:00):
If they want to get rid ofyou, they get rid of you.
The most commonly held beliefaround this is that there was a kidnapping
and that the authoritiescovered it up.
Now, the last theory thatbreaks my heart, but the kids could
have just died in the fire.
The firefighter that webrought up earlier, Steve Cruikshank,
also said in 2016 that thefamily kept work materials in the

(51:24):
garage, like 55 gallon drumsof gasoline and motors, and those
could have intensified theheat of the flames.
And just a note, he said garage.
I think he meant basement,because it's noted that George used
his basement like a makeshift garage.
Gotcha.
So, I mean, that.
That is interesting.
Additionally, he said, quote,by covering the fire's embers with

(51:45):
dirt in the immediateaftermath of the blaze, George inadvertently
created an oven that wouldhave advanced the cremation process.
Now, he didn't cover it, fromwhat I saw for a few days, but, like,
I don't know how well they putout the fire if they're still, like,
smoldering pieces.
I don't know.
But that is interesting.

(52:05):
Yeah.
He, too, has been at manyunfortunate scenes, and he said,
quote, I've sifted through thedebris of a home where six people
were trapped inside, and Ididn't find as much as a single tooth.
That's pretty fucking bad.
Yeah, that's like modern day, right?
Like 2016.
I feel like they have morestuff to, like, find stuff, you know,

(52:27):
and so that makes sense, like,if he wasn't even able to find six
people.
Right.
Also, if you remember, anotherthing brought up by the family was
that no one saw the kids cometo any of the windows during the
fire.
I fucking hate this.
I fucking hate this now.
In 2005, Fire Marshal SterlingLewis commented on this and said
that it's not entirely unusualnot to see children go to the windows

(52:50):
during fires.
He said, quote, when youngchildren feel heat and smell smoke,
they are likely to hide.
We find them under beds, wefind them in closets.
We find them curled up in bathtubs.
That breaks my heart.
I hate that so much.
And so I want to use that,though, as a note.
Practice fire safety drillswith young kids, even if they don't

(53:13):
seem like they're knowing whatthe fuck is happening yet still talk
about it.
We started as soon as my soncould walk.
It's scary to think about andto talk about, but we practiced it,
and he still knows exactlywhat to do now because we did it
so much.
So just a thought to insert here.
And this way, it helps themface it as opposed to getting so

(53:33):
scared they're frozen, whichis still going to be scary no matter
what.
But this way, they're prepared.
That's the whole point ofbeing a parent, right, is you prepare
them for all the hard fucking stuff.
Yeah.
Yes.
And practice with the firealarms, too, because.
Oh, yeah, because they're loud.
I know.
I panic when it's going offbecause ours seems to always go off
at like 4 or 5 in the morningwhen they run out of batteries.
Right.
There's a fire in the hall.

(53:54):
Gosh, yeah, you've heard that.
Ours have gone off.
It was like four or five.
And we have smart alarms, soit tells us where the fire is, if
there's one.
So we woke up to, there's afire in the hallway over and over
and over again.
Beep, beep, beep.
Fire in the hallway.
So, like, we jump out of bedbecause my son's room near the hallway,
there was no fire in the hallway.
But I'm like, oh, fuck.
Maybe it was in the attic orsomething like that.

(54:16):
So I get him out, get theanimals out, everything's fine.
But that's the running jokenow is if anything ever goes off,
he'll randomly come out of hisroom and be like, beep, beep, beep.
There's a fire in the hallway.
And for no reason, that's justburned into his head.
But anyways, Goof.
Okay.
So there is another articlewhere Sterling Lewis was interviewed

(54:37):
again.
And he suggested that the kidslikely died quickly due to smoke
inhalation.
A small blessing if they did die.
You know, like, quick.
Yeah.
When asked about how the twoboys were able to get up and leave
but the other kids didn't,they said that things like this do
happen often.
Quote, we'll find individualslaying in bed dead, and then we'll

(55:00):
find another individual that'slaying a foot away from the door.
So same room, One was able toget up, one wasn't.
When we looked into it, kidscan die or pass out from smoke inhalation,
depending on the density and,you know, heat of the smoke and all
of that, but in as little astwo minutes.
And that's not even accountingfor if they're asthmatic.

(55:20):
Yeah, yeah, right.
Like, it could be even less than.
And the averages that we sawseem to be around 2 to 10 minutes
total.
And they normally lump.
I saw in a lot of things, they lump.
Kids and pets together.
So very similar.
Like, I mean, think about it.
Their lungs, little kids, andlike, a dog's lungs.
Very similar.
There was like, one littlepamphlet thing that we were able

(55:43):
to find online.
It's in our resources, ourshow notes.
But it did say, like, childrenhave this long.
And then it, like, goes intoall dog and cat safety, which I was
interested in, but interesting.
So all of that to say there isa pretty big possibility that they
never even left or tried toleave their room.
And so if they were indeedinside the home, you know, they Weren't

(56:04):
kidnapped.
There's many reasons why theywouldn't have made it to the window.
Makes sense.
So as far as this case goesfor not finding remains, Sterling
also mentioned that bodies canbe destroyed in fires, and usually
what is left turns, quote,beautiful shades of red, which is
unsettling to think about.
I don't like that phrasing.
No.
So he was describing when he'slooking at everything.

(56:26):
So it's like black and grays.
You know, think of ashes thatwhat they look for is pops of red
because that lets them knowthat someone died there or near there.
Yeah.
Although the family has saidnumerous times that no body parts
were found outside of those bones.
You know, the few that theygot looked at by the Smithsonian.
Some people that gatheredaround the home claim that they did

(56:48):
see remains, but that's neverbeen confirmed one way or another.
Some say, yep, for sure.
Neighbors said it.
Others are like, no one wasever interviewed about this.
So I don't know either way,they only searched for a short time
on Christmas Eve.
Right.
And then it was only a fewdays later that George covered everything
with dirt.
And thinking about it intoday, you know, like, with our technology

(57:09):
and everything, it would havebeen an extensive amount of time
and they would have usedmodern tools to.
To find it.
So, like, I see how it couldhave been missed if there were any
remains.
The fire did only rage forabout 45 minutes, though, but the
area was still hot andsmoldering until the fire department
came at 8:00am, you know, andthey watered it down.

(57:30):
So, yes, it only burned for 45minutes, but it was still hot for
hours.
Yeah.
But also keep in mind, though,that it was December and it was below
freezing.
That's true.
Because the rain was frozen.
So depending on thetemperature, if it was, you know,
burning to smoldering and it'sthat cold out, it's going to cool
down a little bit faster thanit otherwise would.

(57:51):
Yeah, that's true.
And if they're sifting throughthe stuff, it has to be cool enough
for them to sift through.
Yeah.
And I mean, it seemed likethey only did it for a very short
amount of time that day, atleast the first day.
So I don't know.
That's.
It's.
It's weird.
But like, I see kind of bothsides in this, you know?
Yeah.
Now, there is a possibilitythat the family could have absolutely

(58:13):
missed the proof that theywere searching for, as they didn't
have as much knowledge aboutfires as we do today.
And, like, what to look for.
Yeah.
There are probably hundreds oftheories online, and we just selected
a few to discuss becausethere's just so many.
Yeah.
So we're going to Fast forwardto 2021 when Sylvia, the youngest

(58:34):
survivor of the incident,passed away.
She was 79.
Now, I know we didn't talkabout her a lot in the beginning,
but we would love to mention afew things about Sylvia as an adult.
While she wasn't technically avictim of the fire itself, she was
a victim of losing her familymembers in that fire, Whether it
was from kidnapping or fromdeath at that point.

(58:55):
And so remember, it was theolder siblings that had survived.
She ended up growing up askind of like an only child.
She met the love of her life,Grover Paxton, when she was in college.
She attended the West VirginiaInstitute of Technology.
Her memorial described her asa great wife and mother.
And we specifically wanted toread this part.
She filled her children'slives with scotch tape and construction

(59:17):
paper, warm cookies, books,and unbounded love.
She encouraged her children todream big, work hard, and care deeply.
Good mom.
Yeah.
She loved to cook and had agreen thumb.
Sounds great.
Yeah.
She had a daughter that shenamed Jenny and a son, Grover Eric.
And they are working on waysto keep the story out there, but
they don't have any hope for closure.

(59:39):
Jenny said my mom promised mygrandmother that she would never
let the story die.
That's all my me getting.
You know how I read in afamily thing.
That's what my brother and Iare doing now.
She's also posted onwebsleuths and has done some interviews
in the last few years.
And she encourages anyone withinformation to submit a post there.
Quote, anybody who knew whathappened would have been my grandparents

(01:00:02):
age.
I would think that it's beenin the public enough that if children
wanted to be found later on inlife, they would have reached out.
We would like for the story tosurvive just because if nothing else,
it's a beautiful love story.
Oof.
And we do hope that they getclosure, you know, like somehow.
So sad.
And again, we want you toremember their names.

(01:00:23):
So the children that were lostwere Betty, Jenny Lewis, Martha and
Maurice.
I'm glad they're stillremembered today, even though the
billboard's gone, that peoplestill know of them, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
They're short little lives.
I also would imagine it wouldbe hard to take the billboard down,
like, after Jenny died.
I'm sure that was difficult.

(01:00:44):
Like it wasn't an easydecision, but I think it was probably
for the best because, like, ithad been there for decades.
And if it was.
If it was going to yield more,it would have done that.
Yeah.
I mean, and they updated itfor years and years and.
Yeah.
It just breaks my heart thatthey never, like, especially the
parents, like, they dideverything they could and they.
They deserved some sort of closure.

(01:01:04):
But I agree.
I really do hope that, like,someone I don't know told their great
grandkids a weird story andthey somehow are able to, like, link
it and get ahold of them.
I don't know.
My hopes.
No, no, that's.
That's.
It's true.
It's also.
It is possible that someonehas great aunts, great uncles that

(01:01:27):
were adopted that had five of them.
Wouldn't that be interestingif you had great aunts and uncles
that were all adopted in thecentral east coast area?
If you would, you know, like,that is possible.
If they weren't going tomurder these tiny children, I would
imagine that they would putthem someplace.

(01:01:48):
Yeah, yeah.
They would have had to go somewhere.
I think it was purposeful thatthe youngest ones were taken out
of the house because the olderboys were working with their father.
So they were kind of moreadult, like, if you will.
Sylvia was tucked into bedwith her mom and Marian was laying
on the couch.
So I so thoroughly believethat they went outside to do their

(01:02:08):
chores, like good, awesomelittle kids that they are.
And that someone took themthen right before the fire.
Because, I mean, imagine this, right?
It's late, midnight.
Ish.
12:30.
You're about to do this, andthese five kids come bouncing out
of the house.
And they're being good kids.
They're doing their chores on Christmas.

(01:02:30):
It's like, I don't know, let'ssay midnight, 11:30.
Yeah.
Kids are excited, happy.
They're putting the chickens away.
They're locking up like theirmom said.
And you're about to do thisterrible thing.
Are you gonna force them backin the house?
Are you gonna look at themwhen you do this?
Can you do this?
It's a lot different setting afire to a house and not looking at

(01:02:53):
the inhabitants than it is towatch five kids bouncing around outside
putting chickens.
Away or through the windoweven, and.
Making a decision to do it.
Playing with toys underChristmas lights, you know, or if
they did get out before anyoneelse, that someone grabbed them then.
Yeah.
Or the chaos of the fire.

(01:03:13):
There's someplace nearby.
Somebody scoops them up.
Then like, I do think thatthey were taken.
I don't think they died in the fire.
Really.
Yeah.
I have a feeling that Georgewould not have put Dirt on a hot
crime scene.
Mm.
You know?
Yeah.
Hot means it's still burning.
Like, that doesn't make any sense.
They're sifting through it.
I don't know.

(01:03:34):
This is the guy that like, fordecades searched for his babies.
I don't think he would havebeen like, okay, let's cover up the
grave site prematurely.
In my head, like the vision,the image I have in my head is a
mom elbows deep in ashes, weeping.
She's looking for her babiesand she won't stop digging.

(01:03:55):
Yeah, she just won't stop.
And he does that so that shecan be at peace.
That's just the image I havein my head that he's like, no, we've
gotta stop.
Yeah, they aren't there.
Yeah.
So what do you think?
Yeah, I was back and forth,especially reading certain things
and then seeing the interviewsdone with firefighters, modern firefighters,
and how.
What they walk into,unfortunately, often I was.

(01:04:19):
Yeah, I think I'm just squarein the middle.
I hate saying that all thetime, but like, yeah, they make very
good points.
Especially because the kids, Imean, they were younger, right.
Like, like you said, the olderkids got out, the youngest kid got
out.
So their ages were between 5and 14.
Right.
I don't know how they weredispersed between the two rooms either,

(01:04:41):
whether maybe the 12 and 14year old tried to get to the littles,
but the littles were already gone.
Yeah.
And then they didn't make itbecause of it.
You know, like, there's somany different things that could
have happened that night.
But then.
Yeah, they never found anything.
Right.
Like anything to show.
Not a tooth or a bone.
I would think there would atleast be a few bones.

(01:05:02):
And I know that they found some.
I don't think that was theirs though.
But scientists were saying no.
Like there would have beenburn marks.
Right.
Scorch marks.
Remember, Jenny experimentedwith animal bones.
Granted, that is a littledifferent, but she tried with various
types of animal bones.
I feel like there would havebeen scorch marks on some bones.
I know even, like, at leastfrom what I understand with cremation,

(01:05:23):
there are pieces left.
Like you're not going to getjust the dust when you get.
I know I have all my animal remains.
Right.
It's not just fine sand, youknow, there are pieces.
So again, unless they justreally didn't know what they were
looking for.
But it sounds like they paidattention to everything.
Yeah, I mean, I think that thequestion I have that would really

(01:05:45):
make me certain one way or theother, even more so would be whether
the livestock had been put away.
Yeah.
I could not find anything.
Any article that said yes or no.
Yeah, but I mean, why wouldthey focus on that, you know?
No.
Yeah.
Why would they focus on.
Right, that.
Right.
And it's also possible that inthe chaos of what was happening,
livestock could get out if itwas freaking out, you know, like,

(01:06:06):
it wouldn't want to be nearspoke or what have you.
Right.
My questions would be directedat the letter that came with the
picture.
Like, if that's legitimate orsomeone being an asshole.
Some say the kid does look similar.
Some are like, mm, don't see it.
You know, it's hit or miss.
It's hard to see on the billboard.
Cause it's a billboard picture.
You know, I would also be very.
Curious to see whether Jennyand Grover were on 23andMe to find

(01:06:31):
possible relatives, becausethat would be a way of knowing, like,
did they go live a life someplace?
Because that's the bestpossible scenario.
Right.
That they got taken someplacefar, told they couldn't go home.
Because also think about it, right.
1945, the news is different.
The kids are put into a car.
Your family's dead.

(01:06:52):
They don't really know.
Yeah.
Unless, I mean.
And again, I have another jetflying over me.
But.
Unless it wasn't one of thekids that sent the picture.
Maybe it was someone who felt guilty.
Mm.
And was like, hey, just so you know.
Yeah.
So I have a few questions.
I would want to know exactlywhere that came from, the picture
letter situation, if it had aletter included, you know, like,

(01:07:16):
if there was a note at alloutside of what was written on the
back of the photo.
Yeah.
And then I also question,where did those bones go?
Because, like, today we couldtest those bones and see if there's
any, like, overlapping DNA.
It would be weird that theywouldn't have any fire damage to
them.
Yeah.
But still, I'm, like, curious,like, whose bones were those then?

(01:07:38):
Where did they come from?
Who died?
But, yeah, this is a bigdebated case still online.
It's still active in a lot ofgroups, I noticed.
So I am happy that at leasttheir story is still out there and
we get to say their names.
Yeah.
Another heavy one that we'redoing this month.
Yeah, we're doing all heavythings in November.

(01:08:01):
I know.
It was a hard November.
Well, it was a hard November.
We want to know what you think.
What do you think happened tothe kids?
Do you agree with any of these theories?
And then as a quick reminder,this is our last episode of the year.
We won't be back till January, but.
We'Ll be creeping around.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we'll be getting ready fornext year.
We've got a lot of things wewant to do, things we want to talk

(01:08:22):
about, things we want to tellyou about.
If you have cases you want tolearn more about or things you just
want to know about, eventangentially spooky, we can make
it spooky.
Don't worry, we can do it.
Always share those with us.
Yeah.
And with that, have a greatrest of your year.
Thanks for creeping with us,thanks for listening and as always,

(01:08:43):
a special thank you to ourpatrons who support us via Patreon.
Please see the link in ourshow notes to learn more about how
you yes, you can begin tohaunt the dump guard vortexes or
even become a scorching Sasquatch.
Ooh.
Also in our show notes you canfind the link to our website, more
information on our sources,our social media handles and our
merch store.
We'd love for you to keepcreeping with us, so if you like

(01:09:05):
this episode, pleasesubscribe, rate, review and share
the show with your fellowcreeps and or ghosts.
I beg of.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Christmas True Crime: The Mysterious Disappearance of the Sodder Children