Four Peaks Brewery Paranormal Investigation

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We're talking about Amanda'sparanormal investigation at Four
Peaks today, and we're alsogoing to share some audio clips from
the investigation.
We'll also go over the historyof the property as well as who may
be haunting it.
Hi.
Welcome to True Creeps, wherethe stories are true and the creeps
are real.
We'll cover stories fromgrotesque gore to the possibly plausible

(00:21):
paranormal, to horrifying history.
To tense and terrible truecrime and.
Everything else that goes bumpin the night.
We're your hosts, Amanda, andI'm Lindsay.
And we want you to join uswhile we creep.
We cover mature topics.
Listener discretion is advised.
Hello, everyone.

(00:41):
Today we are going to bechatting about a really cool opportunity
that I had to do a paranormalinvestigation at Four Peaks Brewing
Company in Tempe, Arizona.
It's very exciting.
It's very exciting.
Yes, it was great.
But I want you to stick aroundat the end because we're gonna let
you know how you can sign upfor their annual haunted brewery

(01:02):
tour, which is already happening.
And I have to say, in myopinion, they have the best theme
this year.
I'm not gonna give it away,but I very much like their theme.
Yes, it's very.
It's very Amanda centric.
Like, I'm also a fan, but Ithink Amanda's more of a fan.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not the center of apeanut butter cup, though.
That is not the theme of it.

(01:22):
I mean, yeah, that would be afantastic theme as well, but it is
not that.
Also, when you go, there's ashirt that you get, and I'm obsessed
with this year's shirt.
So just head over to their website.
It'll be in our show notes,and we'll talk about it at the end
if you want to sign up to havea spooky experience as well.
Perfect.
Now, what is Four Peaks?

(01:42):
Let's talk about that.
Four Peaks is the largest andoldest craft brewery in Arizona.
This particular location on8th street is.
Is housed inside 133-year-oldformer creamery and ice factory with
a history of tragic events andalso some very spirited visitors.
Hmm.
Also, just because a couple ofus ate there before the investigation,

(02:05):
the drinks, the food, and theservice is amazing, I will say so.
Even if you don't want to gothere for spooky reasons, I do definitely
recommend it.
And I think I will be bringingLindsay there next time she visits
as well.
Yes.
I'm excited to see it in person.
Yes.
Yes.
So first, as always, let'schat about the history of the area
and the building.
So the address is 1340 East8th street in Tempe, Arizona.

(02:29):
And before it was even abuilding, it was indigenous land,
like most places.
Right.
There's a ton on theirhistory, but for the sake of time,
we're going to summarize ashort portion of it.
So the Salt River Valley washome to the o' Adam and Pipash people,
who, hopefully, I'm saying itright, I watched a few videos, and
I was like, please let me saythis right.
They had elaborate farmingsystems, and originally they did

(02:53):
have a very good relationshipwith settlers in the area.
They lived along the Saltriver, which helped them to be amazing
farmers.
There's some art online of,like, what their farming looked like,
and it's intense and amazing.
They were very intelligent,the way that they put everything
together.
I feel like when you have avery purposeful relationship with
the land, you're just morelikely to.

(03:15):
To be able to work with it better.
Like, with anything.
Right.
Like, when you're kind, youprobably get some kindness back a
little bit.
Yeah.
When you respect things.
Yeah.
But, yeah, they were amazing farmers.
And as the population ofsettlers grew, the settlers ended
up diverting water and prettymuch dismantling their farming systems

(03:36):
and their practices, whichpushed a lot of them off the land.
Then the US Acquired the areawhere Tempe would eventually be established
in treaties with Mexico, andthose were signed between 1848 and
1954.
Then the US governmentestablished a large reservation,
and then, of course, theyshrank the reservation substantially.

(03:57):
By the early 1890s, the landhad been converted into industrial
property.
And 8th street, where thebrewery is, is curved because originally
it was following the river,which I thought was interesting.
We do want to point out,though, that the o' erdam and the
Pipash people still.
Still do have a presence inthe area.
And they're part of the SaltRiver Pima Maricopa Indian community.

(04:20):
And personally, I have a bunchof friends that live on the reservation.
And fun fact, my first, like,real job job was on the reservation
when I was 16.
And so I have pretty good tiesto that area.
And just for everyone that'slistening, too, they have a great
website that really breaksdown their history and their influence
to Arizona and me as someonewho's lived here.

(04:41):
I've gone on the website forthings before, like when I worked
out there especially, but Ifeel like I didn't read enough or
understand enough of their history.
So I actually was excited tolearn a little bit more about them
this week.
Yeah.
So the first building.
Spoiler alert.
There's a few.
But the first building thatwas there was built in 1892, and
it's listed on the NationalRegister of Historic Places in Maricopa

(05:04):
County.
And at that time it was F.A.
hughes Ice Plant.
You fucking know, I love anice plant.
I love the idea that icefactories and shit.
Like, I find that so fascinating.
But anyway, within a fewyears, it became Tempe Creamery,
then Tempe Mesa Produce Company.
Then in 1907, Pacific CreameryCompany purchased the property.

(05:24):
They were largely working outof California at that point, and
they ended up employing around50 people and became one of Tempe's
largest employers.
They made products likecondensed milk, butter, cheese, and
of course, ice.
Then in 1915, the TempeCreamery office was built and added
to the complex.

(05:44):
So the property starts to expand.
And just as an interestingnote, as we work through our timeline,
Arizona didn't officiallybecome a State until 1912.
It's bizarre to think about,like the timeline of the US because
you think it was more than ahundred and some years.
Yeah.
Arizona's still fairly new.
Yeah.
Anyhow, continuing on with thehistory of this particular Property,

(06:07):
Borden Milk Company thenpurchased the property 20 years later
in 1927.
They expanded the complex andremodeled, and at that point it had
grown to nine buildings, which.
That's pretty big.
They continued to operate ituntil it sold in 1953.
But the creamery left alasting impression.
So much so that they named anearby park after it.
It's the Creamery Park.

(06:27):
And they did that in 1999.
Isn't that cute?
I like it.
Yeah.
I also just have a very unsetsettling vision of what that park
looks like.
There's no reason for me tothink that there's like milk themed
playgrounds.
And yet here I am.
I wish there was.
That's.
That's a weird thing to wish.
So weird.
Yeah.
I do like a weird thing, though.
It feels like a roadside attraction.

(06:48):
Instead of water fountains,they have milk fountains.
Okay.
No, no, I thought you meantmilk themed, like play equipment.
Not that it would have to.
Yeah, no, both.
Both.
No.
Yeah.
There's a fountain, but it'son a heat.
I know, I know.
It's like there's nothing likea sip a cold milk from a milk fountain.
Oh, it wouldn't be gold.

(07:08):
Yeah.
Well, no, they would have anintense refrigeration system.
Maybe ice.
Maybe they would have ice.
Yeah.
Ice milk.
I hate it.
I know, I know.
So after that location forBorden Milk closed, Arden Farms took
over the property brieflyuntil 1966.
And although a lot of thesurrounding area changed significantly,

(07:30):
the old creamery complex remained.
So for decades, this was acreamery in some way.
Yeah.
And you know, like any oldcreamery, it then had a second life.
Well, actually a third lifebecause the first life was an ice
plant.
So then it moves on to becomea Korean grocer, then a furniture
builder, then there's acomputer hardware company there,

(07:53):
and then a fortune cookie factory.
And then like when I thinkfortune cookie factory, the next
thing I think is obviouslygoing to be that that's where the
Gin Blossoms would record.
Of course, that's juststandard facts.
So Robin Wilson from the GinBlossoms purchased what used to be
that creamery office wementioned earlier to set up a recording
studio.
And it was Uranus recording of Tempe.

(08:15):
And then In December of 1994,the band started using the space,
and they used it as apracticing space in a studio.
But then it grew.
So other well known artistsend up working in that space, including,
you know, just like a.
A locally known lady fromPhoenix, Stevie Nicks.
You know, just like just alocal gal.
Most people probably haven'theard of her casually, you know what

(08:35):
I mean?
Like, yeah.
So the studio also hosted liveradio sessions with a local station
that had bands play likeBarenaked Ladies, Foster the People,
and some others.
But then in 2015, Robin closedthe space.
So now remember, Robin didn'tpurchase the entire like, creamery
compound, if you will.
They just purchased the office.

(08:55):
So the rest of it waspurchased by Four Peaks in 1995,
and then it opened in 1996.
Then in 2016, that's when FourPeaks acquired the rest, which was
the creamery office where theUranus recording space was.
And that added another 2,000square feet to what they had.

(09:16):
And then that update became anew bar area, a retail shop, and
it expanded their patio.
Yeah, and I did see dogs onthe patio when I was there.
Just saying, hell yeah.
Dog friendly.
10 out of 10.
That's always my favorite.
Yeah, 10 out of 10.
So let's talk about some morehistory, but include some notable
events that happened in this area.
We were sent a couple articlesabout the place before we went for

(09:38):
our investigation.
Unfortunately, a lot of themdon't have dates, but they're interesting
reads and we can kind of getan idea of it based off of what they
were calling the company inthe article.
That makes sense.
So In May of 1901, there was arailway accident that involved a
train colliding with a wagon.
On 8th Street.
And the wagon was carryingthree men.

(09:59):
One of the men was namedJames, and unfortunately he was found
dead at the scene in a ditch.
He had a bad temple wound anda broken leg.
Another man named George, diedin the most horrific way.
His body was underneath thetrain and had been cut down the middle.
That is obviously horrifying,but it also feels like something

(10:21):
that doesn't happen in real life.
It sounds like a cartoon.
It does.
And then the third man, hisname was Horace and he was injured,
but he survived.
He had a very bad scalp wound,a badly injured hip and a broken
arm.
Also, just to note, the horsespulling the wagon also survived.
But still a horrific tragedythat no one should ever experience.

(10:42):
No.
Now, in another article itsaid this happened while it was the
Pacific Creamery Company.
Fireman McGuire had a very badaccident while working one day.
The plant used oil as fuel andaround 11 he went up to fire one
of the boilers.
He turned on the oil expectingthe plate was hot enough to ignite
it.

(11:02):
And per the article, quote,failing to do this, he lighted a
piece of waste and threw itinto the oil.
So I'm wondering if like,maybe he used a piece of paper or
like used something to try toget it to light.
Now when he did that instantlythere was a terrific explosion, as
the paper says, and a flameshot out of the firebox, striking

(11:22):
him squarely in the face.
Fuck.
Right.
A doctor was called in and heended up being badly burned on his
face, which was horribly blistered.
His head was burned, one ofhis shoulders was burned, and his
shirt had caught fire in acouple places.
Luckily he survived.
But from what the paper said,it was incredibly painful.

(11:43):
I mean, when you have fire inyour face, I feel like that's a.
That's a given.
Yeah.
Horrific.
And now another article thathappened while it was the Pacific
Creamery states that there wasanother accident that took place
nearby and a man named CharlesSmith was hit by a car around 9:30
in the evening.
The driver, MP Holliday, wasblinded by oncoming headlights and

(12:05):
it caused him to swerve the car.
And unfortunately Charlesended up passing away from getting
hit by the car.
He did pass away at thehospital the following morning.
Charles was out in the eveningbecause he had been driving a team
of mules and dump wagons fromPhoenix to the railroad.
And what had happened is hewas camping out for the night west
of the creamery.

(12:26):
And when he was crossing hewas actually in the middle of the
road because he had taken themules to get a Drink from the canal
nearby.
And it sounds like he washeading back when he was hit.
That's awful.
Right.
A lot of horrible accidentsaround this little area.
So when the property was theBorden Co. Creamery, there was a
man named Victor A. Vogel whoworked there until he retired.

(12:49):
When he retired, he was a superintendent.
So there was an article in thepaper when he passed away, but he
didn't pass away at the creamery.
He passed away in the hospital.
And the reason why we specifythat, because that's a strange thing
to specify, is where this man died.
Right.
Is because many people thinkhe's still there, keeping an eye
on the building.
And we thought it might, Justmight be interesting to look into

(13:11):
him a little bit, especiallybecause we're going to talk about
him later, too.
So this way we can kind ofintroduce you to someone who is perhaps
there.
So Victor was born on May 1stof 1888 in Haverstraw, New York,
and he died on September 1st,1972, in Tempe, a few months before
his 84th birthday.
And he moved to Arizona in1927, and he was a superintendent

(13:35):
at Borden from 1927 to 1943.
So quite a while.
Yeah, he was a busy guy.
Yeah.
And, like, when we say busy,we mean he was busy.
I know that he must have hadone of those, like, little, like,
plan, like those little, like,leather planners with all the tabs.
Like a day runner.
Like, he had, like a day.
He had to.
He had to have a day runner.
The size of a phone book.

(13:56):
The size of a phone book.
It was like.
It wasn't a daily one.
It was an hourly one.
And every hour got its ownpage because.
Let's talk about what he was doing.
So during his time in Arizona,some notable events.
One, he married a woman named Eileen.
He also owned Vogel Hatchery,Vogel's drive in.
He was a board member of theTempe Union High School District.

(14:18):
He was also a member of theTempe Chamber of Commerce, and he
was even president of theChamber of Commerce at one point
and was a part of the TempeRotary Club.
And so, like, you know, with his.
With his light schedule.
He also had two sons, Haroldand Theodore, and ended up having
four.
Four grandkids and one great grandchild.
What a life.
Whew.
That's a lot.
I'm tired.

(14:39):
I'm tired.
He seemed like he was insanelyefficient to be able to do all of.
That, because that's a lot.
I have no idea how he did.
He's Got a full roster.
He is a busy guy.
Yeah.
Wow.
So with that being saidthough, I feel like the rules and
managing would be veryimportant to him.
I agree.
I also think that if you're aperson who's involved in that much

(14:59):
stuff, you are to probably notgetting into like the weeds of everything
a lot.
You're probably doing a lot ofoverseeing and keeping an eye on
people.
Yeah.
And with a efficient andcritical eye.
Right.
You're just like aware of likewhat's going on, making sure things
are moving along.
Not a lot of like time forlet's be chill, let's have a little

(15:20):
chat.
Like let's do this.
It's like, no, we're working,we're working.
Let's go.
Yes.
So we're now going to talkabout something else that happened
at the creamery.
On January 31st of 1909, an 11year old boy named Harry Williams
died.
And it's pretty tragic what happened.
So.
It is.
He was the son of a PacificCreamery employee and he had just
moved with his father fromBuena Park, California and his mom

(15:43):
hadn't gotten to Arizona yet.
So Harry was playing with oneof his friends, Victor Horbel, near
the creamery when he climbed agovernment transmission tower.
And so like thinking a powerline is like similar to what it is.
Right.
It's got live power.
And when he was doing this, heaccidentally touched a live wire
with his bare foot and got electrocuted.
The boys had taken off theirshoes to climb because they thought

(16:05):
they would have a better grip.
And Victor was still on theground when Harry was electrocuted.
Witnesses say that Harrybriefly hung from the tower and then
fell 30 to 40ft to the ground.
Makes my heart sad.
Yes, yes.
I mean especially you'rethinking of like little kids being
little kids just climbingaround, like playing outside and
like just this horrific thing happens.

(16:27):
And also like I can't evenimagine being like a little kid watching
your friend die.
Like it's sad to watch afriend die at any age.
But something about being achild and watching it feels much
worse.
It should never happen.
No.
Yeah.
No.
And again, remember Victorbecause we're going to talk about
him later as well.
So we couldn't find a year.
But there was a story that atone point there was a cat that was

(16:47):
in the building and it was onthe top rafters during a monsoon
and it fell down and it didn't survive.
Poor kitty.
So a cat has possibly died there.
Yeah.
So now that we know a lot ofhistory of the Area and around the
building.
Let's talk spooky stories.
Let's talk about the spiritsthat may be housed inside this building.
Now, we've heard that therecould be around nine or more spirits

(17:11):
hanging out, which is a lotfor, like, one area.
It is a very big building.
I will say it's huge.
It feels like a lot for a brewery.
It does.
And like a former creamery.
It just doesn't seem like.
Like, I feel like one or twomaybe there, but not.
Not ten.
Yeah.
Not like double digits almost,you know.
Right.
Right.
Now, some people have seenwhat they call the gray man, who
is like 8ft tall andoccasionally is seen around some

(17:34):
of the barrels.
Interesting.
You know, like, giant shadow.
People always freak us out,Especially after going to Malvern.
Yes, yes.
Also seeing an unexplainedshadow in and of itself, I'm like,
hmm.
Exactly.
Bizarre.
Yeah.
Another spirit that peoplebelieve is there.
Is a little girl, and she'sbeen known to be in one of the barrel

(17:55):
rooms.
And she does seem to be moreactive with certain people, Typically
like parents or parental figures.
There is a spirit that theemployees call Anthony, who resides
in this back area of the building.
It's like a little back roomwith a closet where he seems to frequent.
He is said to be veryterritorial and doesn't really care
for visitors.

(18:15):
We looked through records, butwe really couldn't find anyone historically
that this could specificallybe, like, associated with the building.
Not to say that he's notthere, but we just can't figure out
who.
What.
Anthony.
He is.
Yeah.
Now, as Lindsay mentioned,some believe that the spirit of Victor
Vogel, who we chatted about,is also still working in the building.

(18:36):
He is said to watch theworkers and keep everything in check.
There's this large area wherethere's kegs and, like, a big machine,
and he is said to frequentthis area.
And when you walk through it,I will say, even from personal experience,
it feels like someone iswatching you and that someone everyone
believes is Victor.
And originally we were goingto mention this a little bit later,

(18:57):
but I think that it's worthmentioning now.
We're talking about this,like, brewery compound, for lack
of a better phrase.
Right.
Because there's, like, so many buildings.
Amanda has a video that sherecorded while she was there so that
you can get an idea of the layout.
We're going to talk more aboutthe, like, the way everything is
laid out in a bit, but just soyou know, like, that is available.
That's up on social media already.
Yeah, yeah.

(19:18):
And I took that video after wefinished the investigation and the
lights were on for the mostpart as I went around looking for
equipment to make sure wedidn't leave anything behind.
So I went in most of therooms, but not all now.
More spirits that could behoused in this area.
Some believe that the spiritsof the men from the train accident,
James and George, are also inthe building.
And this breaks my heart.

(19:38):
The spirit of the 11 year oldHarry, they believe that he's still
there too.
We also heard a story that anemployee at one point was in the
bottling room alone, and allof a sudden the lights went out and
a door slammed.
And no one else was in that area.
It was just them.
That would scare me.
I feel like an unexplaineddoor slam.
Yeah, I think I would behoofing it.

(20:00):
I think I'd be moving andshaking away from that right now.
We're just gonna go through afew stories that we've heard about
the building.
Once an employee was carryinga barrel around 11:30pm so at night
they felt a hand on their backand then a small push.
So they thought, you know,another employee was just messing
with them.
So they quickly turned aroundto see that no one was there.

(20:21):
No, it may have been anemployee, just not an employee that
was on shift that night.
As.
As being a person who's beenthe recipient of a ghost push.
10 out of 10 would not recommend.
10 out of 10.
No.
Many employees have seenshadows, especially when they're
in the rooms alone.
Another story that we heardwas that an employee was opening
and getting ice for the barfrom the ice machine.

(20:42):
And the bar is kind of thebest way I can describe it up front
and in the ice machine, youhave to walk around this big wall
of machines and everythingbefore you can turn and go into this
other room where the icemachine is.
So walking back and forth,it's a decent walk.
Well, they were alone, butdefinitely didn't feel like they
were alone.
They got the vibe that someonewas angrily staring at them and watching

(21:04):
them work.
Our guess is Mr. Vogel isstill taking his job very seriously.
You know how I feel about aghost employee, But I guess if he
was running it, that's different.
Maybe you want to be like aballsy ghost.
I'm not here to judge.
Maybe I don't know if hisspirit is there rather than his energy
replaying what he used to do.

(21:24):
Maybe.
Yeah, that's fair.
Yeah, like residual perhaps.
Maybe that's like, I don'tknow, a station that he worked at
to like Check on the employeesor something.
Yeah.
Like, he was there so muchthat his energy just kind of imprinted.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now, of course, we've saidit's a brewery, but it is a restaurant
as well.
And this being said, there arethose blind spot mirrors in a lot

(21:45):
of the corners, you know, highup, so you can see if someone's walking
so you don't run into each other.
Well, when this employeelooked up at the mirror that day,
they saw a shadow staring at him.
They did not want to go backin that area the rest of the day.
And they refused to look atthe mirrors anymore after that day.
I mean, relatable.
I would also feel that way.

(22:06):
Yeah.
I will say, after hearing that story.
When I was there, I was constantly.
Checking the mirrors becausethat is, like.
I feel like that's one of thescariest ghost encounters.
Oh, yeah.
It's also, like, such a trope.
Like, I know it's a sillytrope in a movie, but, oh, my gosh,
just seeing something in amirror and then it not being there,
that freaks me out.
Yeah.
Now, there's this big spacekind of in the back, tucked away.

(22:29):
I believe it's called thefermentation room.
That's what we were calling it.
We're not beer scientists byany means, but we were naming the
rooms as we made our notes andtalked to each other.
All the people that went tothe investigation, we're going to
talk about them soon, sothat's what we're going to call it.
But there's this space in theback room, and they refer to it as
Anthony's space.
Interesting.
And it's in this small room.

(22:50):
And this is the closet insidethat room.
That's Anthony's room orAnthony's space.
And once, during aninvestigation, someone had an XLS
camera.
And this is the one that showsthe little, like, stick figures.
And they set it up directed atthe closet.
And on the camera, they sawtwo stick figures kind of jumping
up and down, and then onedarted at them, which, again, the

(23:11):
way I would shriek.
And the people who, you know,experienced this, they could even
feel what, like whatever wascoming at them, run at them.
And they got intense chills.
And from what we heard,everyone there at the time just completely
freaked out, or, as the kidssay, crashed out.
I think that's what they'resaying now.
I think it's crashed out.
Okay, sure.
And that feels very fairbecause I would also crash out if

(23:34):
a ghost ran at me.
So it's possible that theyweren't being the friendliest to
the ghost.
And maybe Anthony didn't like that.
But who could say?
Immediately after that eventhappened, the spirit box went off
and said, leave.
And then the person's name.
No, thank you.
Yeah.
Later that night, they wentback into that area to, you know,
face their fear, and thespirit box roasted them and called

(23:56):
them names.
Wild.
I do love when ghosts roastus, though, as being on the other
end of that.
It's hilarious.
Yeah, yeah.
It's also.
It's one thing when you'relike, oh, it's just saying rude things,
but if it's, like, legitmaking a comment about you, it's
like, okay, okay.
I mean, I do think that in oneof the recordings that Amanda has,

(24:18):
there's a slight ghost roast,but we'll get to it in a second.
So in the beginning, Amandamentioned that they do spooky brewery
tours during the Halloween season.
And we'll have a link to thatin our show notes.
But during one of those tours,one of the employees was waiting
for a group to walk up, andthey're standing there waiting, and
then they hear their namewhispered into their ear.

(24:39):
So they, like, whiff around tosee who's there, and then there's
no one there.
I hate it.
Like, hoofing it.
I enjoy investigations, butthere's just some things we will
not tolerate.
And a creepy whisper in myear, I'm gonna need a minute.
You know, I'm gonna need aminute away from that situation.
Yes, yes.
So in another instance, whilesetting up for a tour, they put out

(25:02):
a REM pod.
And the REM pod ended up goingoff in the dark.
So one of the employees shineda flashlight onto it, and then the
REM pod immediately, like,went dead.
That weird.
It is.
These feel like gasp moments.
Yeah.
And I will say, well, we'lltalk about it more.
But some of my equipment diddo some strange things while here.
And I did have my camera thatwas supposed to last all night, not

(25:23):
last all night.
Those ghosts are hungry.
You know, they gotta eat.
They need their power.
I brought a giant battery,like, gigantic battery.
They didn't want that.
They wanted the small things.
Look, sometimes you go to thegrocery store and you buy so many
vegetables for yourself, right?
But what you want is yourlittle Debbie's.
You know what I'm saying?

(25:43):
You just want a nice, coldzebra cake.
You just want a nice, coldzebra cake.
You don't want all thosevegetables, Right?
Not a grilled one.
Not a grilled one.
Fucking monsters.
Horrifying.
I'm horrified.
By that.
But we were asked thatquestion today.
I was asked to ask Lindsay.
Yeah.
Thoughts on a grilled zebra cake.
I think she knew what mythoughts would be.

(26:05):
But anyway.
But anyway, let's talk aboutanother opening story.
So there was an employee whowas doing just some opening tasks,
and they looked up just intothe office area, and they saw a face.
So they were like, as anyreasonable person would be, Just
assumed that someone was earlyfor work.
But then they realized thatthere was nobody else there.

(26:26):
Like, nobody had came in early.
There was not a living humanwho owned that face.
I don't like it.
What a way to start your day.
You're like, okay, okay.
Who needs coffee when you'vegot ghosts being like, hello.
I found it interesting thatthis happens all day, all night,
Right?
All these stories are takingplace at various times.

(26:46):
I like a daytime haunting.
Yeah.
I find that more reputable, honestly.
Like a 3pm haunting.
What a treat to not have tostay up all night just to see a ghost.
You know, I'm a nocturnalperson, but, like, come on.
Anyway, so we mentioned a cat earlier.
Some employees have heardmeows when there's no cat present.
And then one of the cleaningcrew members also had a bit of an

(27:07):
odd experience.
They are working with afriend, cleaning the kitchen one
night after everything hadclosed, and they look up from their
work, and they see threepeople walk by.
And they were like, that's odd.
And they thought at first thatperhaps it was some of the employees
who came back in.
And then they went to look tosee who it was, and they went into
the space where the people hadwalked, but it was empty.

(27:27):
There was no one there.
So again, no living personwalked into that room.
It seems like.
Yeah, I mean, this one, theywere working with their friends.
So there's another person.
Right.
They looked up and saw it.
But I. I feel like they, like,single out the employees one by one.
We're like, we're gonna freakyou out today because you're alone
in this room.
Today's your day.

(27:47):
It's your turn.
Yeah.
So now that we've explainedall the stories of this place, let's
talk about the investigation.
This investigation was set upa little differently than our typical
ones.
There is a spooky articlebeing written by a really cool freelance
writer named Zack Odin, and heapproached a friend of mine, Nadine,

(28:09):
from Get Ghosted Phoenix,about doing an investigation.
We've talked about Get Ghostedbefore, and she's also submitted
a story on our lastpotiversary episode.
If that name Sounds familiar.
And Get Ghosted is a ghoststore company.
Yeah, it is.
She recommended a local groupcalled Rogue Investigations.
And I've actually done a fewinvestigations with Rogue and luckily
was able to be part of thisone as well.

(28:30):
As a note, I was not.
I want to specify that earlyon I was not there, but I was there
in spirit.
Not like really, but you seewhat I'm saying.
I'm still excited to talkabout this.
But I just wanted to note thatI tried.
Oh, she tried hard.
We got the date for theinvestigation when I was in Maryland
and so the first thing I didwas turn to Lindsay and be like,
you need.

(28:50):
To come to Arizona.
And she was like, it's ahundred and something degrees was
the first response.
That was the first response.
And then the other responsewas that we already had tickets for
a professional rugby game andto go see Offspring.
Yeah, fair, you know, but I'mgoing to take her here when she comes
out again.
Yes, I'm very excited whenit's not 100 degrees.

(29:10):
Yes.
But for this investigation wehad a fairly big group and all of
them were kind enough toanswer some questions that we had
about the investigation.
And so that you understand whoeveryone is, we're going to take
some time to introduce them.
We asked them a bunch ofquestions and one lovely person even
sent us some audio files forher answers.

(29:30):
So you'll hear a guest voice occasionally.
So, Amanda, who is Ashley N. So.
We do have two Ashleys.
Ashley N. Is the co founder ofRogue Investigations, which is a
husband and wife team whopartners with local investigators.
From the two investigationsthat I've seen her in action.
My words.
I think that she has greatinstincts and very good intuition.

(29:52):
I feel like she knows what'shappening before she walks in a room.
And I love that.
Yeah.
And then Ashley, she startedRogue Investigations with her husband,
Justin, right?
Yes, correct.
So her husband's name isJustin and he's the other co founder
of rogue.
He has 25 years experiencewith the paranormal and he's told
us that he's traveled to someof the most haunted locations.
Okay, so then we've got ournext Ashley.

(30:14):
This is Ashley P. Yes.
And she's a newerinvestigator, but in my opinion,
she is a natural.
She approaches investigationswith both curiosity and respect,
which Lindsay and I have saida million times.
We love.
That's what you need.
That's the way to go.
But I was with her quite a bitduring this investigation.
And then we're going to playChristina Christinia's Ooh, Christina

(30:38):
So now we're going.
To play Christina's introduction.
I've said that six times andin varying degrees of, like, strangeness.
Hi, I'm Christina Daggerman,and I like Spooky Bites.
I love history, theparanormal, and watching true crime
and ghost shows.
I'm always interested inlearning new techniques, staying
updated with new devices andmethods, and learning best practices

(31:00):
from those around me.
I've always loved theparanormal, but I've been actively
investigating since 2022, andI consider myself to be a skeptical
believer.
I need to experience somethingin order to truly believe it.
I've had various paranormalexperiences in my life, with the
most occurring during aninvestigation at the old Gila Jail

(31:21):
in Globe, Arizona.
Okay, so tell me about Danielle.
Okay, so Danielle Gonzalez isthe owner of the Grateful Koi in
Peoria, Arizona.
You're gonna love this.
You know it.
She's a reiki master mediumand intuitive coach who helps people
connect with their innerwisdom and to find balance through
energy, healing, and spiritual guidance.

(31:42):
I do love that.
And as a medium, she helps alot of people.
She helps people connect withloved ones and has experience performing
property clearings to removeunwanted energy and attachments,
which I feel like is such acool thing to do and to be able to
help people with, becausethat's not something that's easily
found.
Yes, yes.
So we mentioned her earlier,but will you tell us a little bit

(32:03):
more about Nadine?
Yeah.
So she's the founder of GetGhost at Phoenix, which is a super
fun tour that I highly recommend.
She offers a variety ofwalking tours and even leads some
investigations locally in Arizona.
Now.
I just attended one a coupleweeks ago.
I actually made a videogetting ready for it, and it was
a great time.
She's really good at findinglocal stories and learning about

(32:25):
the spirits to tell her groups.
And she does a really good jobbeing very respectful at the same
time, but she is verysensitive to energies, and she brings
that into the investigations,which is very helpful.
Mm.
And her approach is all abouttreating spirits with respect.
Again, we absolutely love that.
That's what we want, always.
And last but not least, whatabout Zack?

(32:46):
So Zach is a freelance journalist.
We mentioned him.
He's the one that set up thiswhole thing.
Thank you again, Zach.
We were also super lucky to beable to conduct an interview with
him.
So we kind of turned thetables here.
He's like, let me write an article.
And we're like, no, let us putyou on this podcast.
Yes, exactly.
And it was great.
I also really like hisperspective because he doesn't do

(33:07):
a ton of investigations.
It's new ish to him.
And I think that having thatperspective, like, when you're with
people who've done it a bunch,is very interesting.
Yes, I loved it.
And so we actually recorded aninterview with him, and we had planned
on breaking it up and puttingit throughout the episode when we're
asking these questions, but itreally flows well together because,

(33:28):
of course, it's.
Lindsay and I, we went off onsome tangents, you know, us.
And so what we're going to dois we're going to put it at the end
of the episode.
And we have now called itGhost Chat with Zach.
I love it.
It was a fun time.
It was.
But he is a freelancejournalist and a teacher in Phoenix,
which I highly respect.
That's a hard job.
He writes about food, music,and occasionally spooky stuff.

(33:52):
And if you want to check himout, you can find him at the Phoenix
New Times and you can followhim on Instagram @ Odin O D E N EATS
E A T S We also had a FourPeaks employee with us throughout
the investigation who was phenomenal.
Thank you again for showing usaround and letting us check out your
space.
I do like when you'reinvestigating a space and you have

(34:12):
someone who's very used to itas a part of it, I think that that
adds just a different level of validation.
When you're experiencingsomething, you're like, oh, this
is what I sense, what I feel.
Here's the activity we're having.
And then they're like, oh,you're one of many.
Yeah, yeah.
And it was good because theyreally knew their stuff, too.
So when we'd ask a questionabout history or what happened in

(34:35):
the area or anything that wasgoing on inside the building, right
away knew the answer.
Yeah, super helpful.
So before your investigation,what kind of prep work did you guys
do?
So we did do a day tour of thespace to get a feel for it and to
know where to set up the equipment.
And we all had various firstimpressions of the space.

(34:56):
And so Lindsay and I askedeveryone what their impressions were.
Now, it was a huge space, sothere's a ton of rooms.
We will read and play theinitial reactions and then go over
each space as we go throughthe investigation to help paint the
picture of what everythinglooks like, because it's hard to
describe and totallyunderstand each room until you see

(35:18):
it.
And I'll even say, like, Italked to Amanda a bunch about this.
We've chatted so many times.
And until I actually saw It.
I could not, like, my brainjust couldn't conceptualize the space.
Yeah, yeah.
It's very big.
But like Lindsay said, weposted a video after we wrapped up
the investigation of just aquick walkthrough of most of the

(35:38):
rooms.
So you'll be able to kind ofget a feel for it.
Lindsay also, when I firstshowed her the video, would pause
it and be like, before I eventold her what happened during the
investigation, before she knewany stories about the place, she'd
pause it and be like, whathappened here?
What's there?
And had some input for each ofthe spaces, which was pretty spot
on.
Surprisingly, like, it was scary.
Bizarrely spot on.

(35:59):
I was like, oh, I get this feeling.
I get this feeling here.
And I was thinking that she'dbe like, like, like.
Yep.
That.
Nothing there.
Right.
It's just a room.
Because it wasn't like, it waslike a spooky looking place.
And it was like.
I'm pretty sure every single space.
I was like, here's what I feelit, like, kind of matched.
Ish.
Yeah.
And even rooms that I didn'tfully go into.
We're gonna talk about it soon.
But like, she'd be like, oh,back there in that room.

(36:21):
And I'm like, like in thiscorner, in this space.
Yeah.
Like, and I'm not Reese.
I'm like, I'm not there.
So it's not like I couldreally, like, understand it that
much.
But that was new for me.
To be able to like, look intospace and be like, here, here, here,
there in that corner.
It was really good.
I was impressed.
Thanks.
Okay.
And then just to note placesthat we did not go or walk through

(36:42):
at all during the daytime orthe investigation was the kitchen
in one of the barrel aging rooms.
So just a heads up, eventhough there were some stories in
the kitchen, we did not go in there.
And that makes sense.
If there's one thing you don'twant is you don't want people messing
around in a kitchen.
Yeah, Fair.
It makes sense to not havepeople hanging out around the knives
and the stoves and stuff.
Yeah, that's fair.
That's fair.

(37:02):
So before you guys did yourinvestigation, Right.
You did your, your visit tokind of get a lay of the land.
What were your initialimpressions when you were there?
And that's one of my favoritethings to ask whenever we do an investigation
is like, I'll often be there,like pen and paper, interviewing
each person.
Like, how do you feel when youget in this room?
That's, that's.
That's ghost, Lindsay.
Because I'm like, it is sohard to stay present and in your

(37:24):
body and, like, aware ofwhat's going on.
Yeah, yeah.
So, like, I do think that'ssuch an important part of, like,
how you approachinvestigations is like, what does
your gut say when you firstget there?
Like, what's your literalfirst thoughts?
So what were yours?
Yes, yes.
And.
And I need you to look at this.
You'd be proud of me.
Look what I brought with me tothe investigation.

(37:45):
Her Basilosaurus dinosaur notebook.
No, Amanda.
Like, you sent me this forever ago.
I know.
I was like, amanda, you shit.
When we were doing our own,she gets on notebooks that you can
just write down your thoughtsand feelings while we're doing investigations.
Because I was like, I want tocompare later.
Right?
And she, like, when she wastalking about it with me afterwards,
she, like, casually mentioned.
I was like.

(38:06):
She took notes.
I was so excited.
I'm such a nerd sometimes.
All the time.
Usually I have my scribe withme, but she thought it was too hot
to be here, so.
Look, your scribe.
I had to treat Melson.
Oh, we did.
We did.
So my first impression wasthat it was a very busy place with
various energies.

(38:26):
Nothing bad, though.
Like, I never got a bad vibe.
I got a you're not alone vibequite a bit, but not bad.
The first room we hung out inwas kind of like this back dining
area.
And while we were all.
We were all, like, gettingready to go on the tour and chatting
a bit, and we had, like,waters and stuff because it was a
very hot day.
And I just kept watching this,like, machine in the back and kind

(38:48):
of watching the bottom of it,and I'm like, huh, there's something.
I don't know what's there, butthere's something.
But then I found myself mainlylooking at the ground, and I was
like, is it a kid?
Like, is something going tocrawl at me?
What is there?
But 10 out of 10?
The worst of a haunting tropesis things crawling at you.
I think we can all agree about that.
Yes.
And I even turned to one ofthe girls, I don't even remember

(39:09):
who.
And I was like, there'ssomething over there.
And they're like, probably.
But I thought, yeah, child,perhaps animal.
At this time, though, therewas no mention of the ghost cat until
later when we were doing the walkthrough.
So I was like, oh, it mightjust be because I can spot, like,
a lost dog or cat anywhere.
And now I feel like I can evenspot when a ghost Dog or cat is nearby.

(39:34):
I mean, fair.
I was proud of myself.
Yeah, you should be.
When we first walked intowhat's called the bottling room,
it's a big open room and ithas a bunch of windows at the front
and then a couple, like a big machine.
And it leads into an office area.
There's like a big barn doorthat I want to say is another aging
room, but it's a very big space.

(39:54):
But as we all walked in, Istarted getting a headache.
And like, I'm not one toreally get headaches.
Often I do sometimes when I'mout, like driving around when it's
really hot out.
But I had already been herefor a while, and so I thought it
was kind of weird, but I waslike, it's a muggy day.
It had rained the nightbefore, so on top of it being hot,
it was humid too.
When you say headache, what doyou mean?

(40:15):
I don't.
I don't know how to describe it.
It was kind of like, I'm not aheadache person.
I don't get headaches very often.
So it was like, are you ready?
I'm a headache girly.
Okay, so where was it on your head?
Like kind of your head top, like.
Crown of your head?
Yeah.
Okay.
Did it feel like a crushingsensation or did it feel like a sharp
stabbing?
Either of those?

(40:35):
It was kind of like a.
A light, sharp stabbing everso often.
Would you say that it wasconcentrated or it felt like prickles?
I'd say it was concentratedbecause I was like, this is so weird.
And you know, again, I. Iblamed the heat and the humidity
and all of that.
And like, the place is alittle warm, especially in the back.

(40:56):
Like there's machines and stuff.
But yeah, I just.
I found that odd as we wereall standing there, you know, like
when you're in a group, youend up chatting and kind of all facing
each other.
And behind me would have beenthat room that has the ice machine.
And at the time, like, westarted our tour and then a little
bit later we were told, like,they were getting ready for another
tour.
And so I could hear the peoplekind of in the background.

(41:18):
They weren't loud or anything,but like.
They were in the other room.
Like, you could hear it.
You knew where they were basedoff of, you know, the footsteps and
everything, because it's abig, like, echoey place.
And.
And so as we're all standingthere, we're all facing each other
and chit chatting and I hearfootsteps in the room behind us.
And I was like, in my head,I'm always, like, nervous, like,
oh, no.
Like, maybe they want to comein here, and I don't want to, like,

(41:39):
ruin their tour.
And so I kind of just like,look over quickly to be like, oh,
are they coming?
We need to wrap this up.
And no one was there.
No one was in that room at all.
And I was like, interesting.
You're like, so I'm worriedabout bothering literally no one.
Well, maybe.
Maybe the guy was bothering them.
Yeah, hopefully I wasn't.
But, yeah, no one was in that room.
But I for sure Z's heardfootsteps now, because I was like,

(42:00):
huh, Things are already happening.
It's midday.
I turn on the Necrometer app,which we have talked about in several
of our investigation episodes,and I just said, who's here?
Because something wasdefinitely there.
And immediately it responded briar.
And then later in that room, Igot the name Sarah, which did continue
during our investigation as well.

(42:21):
Now, when we walked out ofthat room, the headache gone.
Didn't feel it anymore.
And if it was something thatwas environmental or, like, with
your body, who could say whyyou were having a headache?
But I would just point outthat I typically do not experience
headaches that only last acertain space.
Yes.
That are purely medical in.
In.
In origin.

(42:42):
Right.
So bizarre.
Who could know what that was about?
Another room that we walkedthrough was one of the barrel aging
rooms.
And I particularly liked thisroom because it was very cold.
It was like a refrigerated room.
I loved it, but I felt likesomeone else was there outside of
our group.
Now, we did have, like.
I explained how many people.

(43:02):
There's a ton of people.
And we were all askingquestions and talking about the space
and everything.
So I'm like, it was a littleoverwhelming to begin with, but you
just didn't feel like we werethe only people in the room.
And I do feel like you cangenerally get a sense for when you're
not by yourself.
Yes.
Like, even if you don'tbelieve in everything else, you can
kind of tell when you're not alone.

(43:23):
Right, Agreed.
Agreed.
And then when we walked intoAnthony's room, we had been told
that he was territorial.
We didn't really know muchabout him other than he's territorial.
He doesn't really like visitors.
And as soon as I walked in, Ireally didn't feel any, like, scary
or bad vibes at all.
But the impression that I gotfrom it was like, he's a particular

(43:43):
old man.
You know, like the neighborthat wants everything exactly their
way or the rules, they'll callyou out.
Like, if your trash can's leftout, like, an hour later than it
should.
Dude, I have a neighbor whoher, like, pastime is reporting people
for code violations.
Yes.
That's what I feel like.
That's him in my sense.
The same person wanted me toclose down the street because we

(44:05):
had a yard sale.
Like, a major road.
It's the road that the firestation's on.
They're not going to close that.
Sorry, please continue.
But yes, like, that energy iswhat I got.
It wasn't bad.
It was just particular.
And I got the impression thathe was just over constant visitors
and because a lot of themprobably aren't respectful to him

(44:27):
in his space.
And I just think of, like,everyone has one, right?
Like an older neighbor downthe street.
If you were to barge in andannoy them all the time, they would
not be so kind to you.
I would also point out, too,that the way that people interact
in the world now and in spacesas very comfortable is very different
than previous generationswould have.

(44:48):
So, like, I feel like it's avery, huh, kids today, like, kind
of vibe.
Exactly.
Yeah.
I wrote down, like, get off mylawn, like, energy, but not mean.
Just like, please leave mealone energy.
So my thought was, okay, Ineed to be extra respectful.
Like, super respectful.
I need to ask permission to enter.

(45:10):
I need to show all of mymanners while in this room and then
also show him some extrakindness because he needs it.
Yeah, I like that.
And seriously, no bad vibes.
Others have gotten bad vibes there.
I will say, you know, justbecause we're here, our not so favorite
Zach Baggins went here forGhost Adventures, and he was particularly

(45:33):
weird on that episode.
I did watch it the night before.
I went just to get the vibe ofwhat they felt.
And yeah, they named it Terrorand Tempe.
And it was from, I think, 2023.
But he was just, like, extraannoying in this episode.
If you watch it, you'll see why.
But I feel like he wasn't respectful.
To the space either, as heoften is.

(45:53):
Not.
Right, Right.
Lastly, very, very strange.
But at one point, as we weregoing through, I just kept looking
up because, like, it's a highceiling, very high.
It has, like, windows up there.
And one of the questions Iasked when I was there was, was that
ever, like, a walkway?
I don't know why there'd be awalkway up there.
Maybe, like, to watch production.

(46:13):
I don't know.
But was that a walkway?
Like.
Cause I feel like something isup there.
Like, what's happened up there?
And we were told not in anyrecords or to their knowledge, that
there had ever been a walkway,but, like, years ago.
I don't know if it was beforethey were there or what year specifically.
Some silly teenage kids would,like, shoot the windows out sometimes.
And that was like, the onlyknowledge they had of, like, up there

(46:36):
and what may have happened.
But I for sure z felt likesomeone or something is up there.
And so I'm going to talk aboutmy, like, initial impressions in
each space when we get to theinvestigation that Amanda was on.
But right here, I do feel likeI need to tell you one part, which
is when I was looking at thevideo, because, mind you, Amanda
and I hadn't had the conversation.
I did not know what she just said.

(46:57):
And I was like, I just get the dis.
I was like, when you look up,there's, like, rafters right where
you can see, like, bars.
And I was like, I have thedistinct impression that there's
just, like, the energy of ayoung girl just, like, doing gymnastics
and flipping about.
And, like, it's this positive,moving energy.
And I don't know how todescribe it.
I've never had something,like, such a specific image in my

(47:19):
head, but, like, the distinctimpression that this was not something
that was on a loop.
This was not something thatwas happening.
This was not, like, the causeof death.
This is simply like a littleghost girl flipping about and having,
like, a fun little time.
Because why not in the samespace where Amanda was like, there's
people up there.
There's something up there.

(47:40):
No.
And that was crazy because Ididn't get home till I think it was
like, 6am so Lindsay was upalready at work, so she didn't even
see anything I sent her.
And all I said was, like, itwas such a cool investigation.
Here's a video so you knowwhere I was, like, so you could look
at it.
And then when we talked, she'slike, here, here, here, here.
And I'm like, oh, there's nonotes that she could see yet.

(48:01):
Like, it's all in my notebook.
Like, there's no way she couldhave known that.
Accurate.
Accurate.
So we're going to talk a bitabout the other investigators first
impressions.
So Ashley Ann said that shedidn't experience anything right
off the bat except some.
She like a feeling of sicknesswhen they got further into the walkthrough.
And then I'm gonna just readwhat Justin said.

(48:23):
So he said initial thoughts were.
There was a weird stillnessabout the brewery, almost like time
has stopped type feeling.
In the back of the restaurant,down by the vats where the brewery
employee was talking to us, Isaw a shadow figure dart behind the
vat.
There was a portion in thebrewery between the main hallway
and the fermentation room thatfelt like you were walking through
a fog when you entered.
And that room felt the heaviest.

(48:45):
Anthony's room was a highlightfor me, but I think he just wanted
to be heard and talked to,nothing more, nothing less.
Then Ashley P. She wasn'tthere during the original walkthrough,
so we'll include herimpressions during the investigation
and then we're going to playChristina's impressions right now.
The building was reallyinteresting to walk through during

(49:07):
the initial meet and greet.
Each space kind of felt likeit was really its own space space.
In the main area where we weresitting, I thought I kept seeing
shadows of something smalldarting around behind the silos,
behind the barrels.
And later come to find outthere is reports of there being a
ghost kitty and they hearmeows throughout the building.

(49:30):
The energy was interesting inthe barrel aging room.
I can't remember what it wasspecifically, maybe feeling being
watched, maybe a presence of alittle girl watching from the corner
behind one of the barrels.
But I don't really rememberexactly what it was at this moment.
Moving on to the next room, Ifelt a slight scratch, pin prick

(49:53):
on my shoulder, which oddlyenough would be revealed moments
later that Aaron from GhostAdventures was scratched in the same
area.
The energy felt differentmoving into room 20, which is the
fermentation area adjacent toAnthony's room, like it just felt
busy.
My initial impression ofAnthony was and continues to be he

(50:14):
has been falsely portrayed asa negative spirit wishing to do harm,
when in fact he's someone whoused to be an authority, like a manager
or an owner, someone who doeslots of paperwork and is just busy
and doesn't appreciate beingbothered or having his time wasted
or disrespected.
I don't have any factualinformation on that, but that's just

(50:34):
my impression of them.
It seems like investigatorscome in with this preconceived notion
that they need to confront himand put him in his place, when in
fact they're being incrediblydisrespectful, coming into Anthony's
space and being a bully.
These investigators don't workthere, they don't live there, and
they're just trying to get areaction and move on.
And I think it's really badetiquette, bad practice as an investigator

(50:59):
to just be aggressive toinvoke our reaction.
The last room that we walkedinto was the bottling room, and it
felt like it may have someresidual energy lingering, like busy
work.
Like it was just busy puttingthings, packing bottles or packing
things and getting it readyfor distribution.
And then Danielle said, duringthe first walkthrough of Four Peaks,

(51:22):
I immediately got a headacheand felt like there was a lot of
masculine energy connected tothe trauma and in injury in that
area.
The spot that had the mostdrastic change in energy during the
walkthrough was the centralroom with the dock.
The energy here made me feelextremely dizzy and heavy at the
same time.
This feeling immediatelyresolved when entering the rear brewery

(51:43):
room.
Then Nadine said, the barrelroom definitely stood out.
I felt a heavy, distinctenergy right away.
Anthony's presence was strong.
You could tell it was his space.
But it wasn't just heavy.
There was a playful side, too,almost like he enjoyed telling his
story and joking around with us.
And we don't want to leaveZach out.
But again, we're going to haveour full interview with him at the

(52:04):
end of the episode, so stickaround for that.
And then, so we've.
We've covered Amanda and theother investigators, original and
initial impressions.
So how did the investigation go?
So because it was such a largespace, what we decided to do was
break into groups so that wecould cover more rooms at once, which
had great results, but alsoeverything echoes.

(52:24):
So a lot of the time when Iwas, like, listening back through
audio and things, you couldhear the other group doing things.
Oh, interesting.
Which was a little hard to,like, differentiate what might be
spooky and what might be theother group.
But we did get to cover moreground this way.
So we're going to start out inthe bar seating area.
We didn't spend too much timethere during either day, but employees

(52:46):
have seen shadows andsometimes people when they're alone.
We sort of used it for, like,a home base, and we set up a table
with all of our equipment there.
So, like, we go back and forthhere and there.
So we were there throughoutthe night, but not necessarily investigating.
And you.
So you mentioned your equipment.
It's pretty much the same aswe've talked about in every other
episode.
But you do have one addition, correct?

(53:08):
Yes.
So remember how I mentionedthe night before we watched the Ghost
Adventures episode?
Well, hilarious.
But for the first time ever,my husband watched a spooky show
with me.
It's about damn time, Michael.
About damn time.
But as we're watching it, he'slike, why is he wearing An Xbox camera.
I'm like, what are you talking about?
That's an SLF camera.

(53:29):
I love that.
You also made yourself have,like, a weird little voice when you're
talking, like, what am I?
But he was like, why would hedo that?
And I'm like, no, that is this.
And I'm like, explaining tohim what it is.
And he's like, yeah, no,that's an Xbox camera that they probably
modded to be able to be portable.
That's why he's wearing thebackpack and holding all of this.

(53:50):
He's like, you don't have oneof those?
And I was like, no, I want one.
I have one on my list.
Yeah, but it's also like a bigpiece of equipment.
He's like, oh, I'll build youone tomorrow.
Oh, okay.
I'll just.
I'll just build one real quick.
No worries.
No, babe.
Yeah.
And he's like, but I'm notgonna do it the way stupid Ghost
Adventures did it.
I'm gonna put it on a portablecart where you don't have to carry
around a big battery and looklike him.

(54:10):
And I'm like, yes, please.
You're like, I love whatyou're saying right now.
So what we had for thisinvestigation was an SLS Connect
camera is what it's called.
And the Kinect is hooked up toa laptop.
And it projects stick figureskeletons using infrared light.
I will note that it can givefalse positives, especially if you

(54:30):
use it in a room full of stuff.
Because when it's projecting,sometimes it'll project a stick figure
onto an item.
But typically it's pretty easyto differentiate a real versus like
a false positive.
Because when it's a falsepositive, it's typically the stick
figure staying in one placeand moving, but never moving around
like it's stuck to an item.
That makes sense.

(54:51):
I will say one of the areasnear Anthony's room, when I came
back to the camera.
Cause we had walked away andcame back, there was a dancing stick
figure.
And I quickly figured out, oh,it's on a big piece of equipment
that it was stuck on.
It's not anything, so makes sense.
It was kind of fun to have anew piece of equipment, though.
Now we spent my group at leasta lot of time in the bodily room

(55:13):
because that's where we hadthe most, like, pull.
And the group that I waspaired with was Christina and Ashley
P. And towards the end of theinvestigation, though, we all kind
of met up as a big, larger group.
But yeah, we were in theBottling room for most of our time.
So again, Amanda sends thisvideo, no context of, like, what
she's experienced, where andin this particular room.

(55:35):
The vibe I got while watchingthis video was just this energy of
like, wait, don't leave.
Very, like, specifically.
Like, when you're like, at afriend's house, I'm like, no, no,
stay for a little while longer.
It was just that specifically.
And I also.
I didn't realize that Amandahad taken the video at the end of
the night.
Yeah.
My impression was that shetook it in the beginning of the night.

(55:56):
So I didn't know that she was.
Leaving when I had theimpression that whatever it was was
like, wait, wait, don't leave.
I just thought that was interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like I said, we werepulled into this area.
At least I was.
I wanted to stay in that areaa lot of the night.
Fair.
And when we finally did doanother room and we left the area,
we even, like, asked.
And it.
It did want us to go to thenext area, but, like, I did want

(56:18):
to stay there.
Like, I wanted to explore more.
But while we were in there, wegot a ton of names, including the
name Sarah again, which wasinteresting because we had gotten
it before.
When we did the walkthrough,we did have a dead bell that went
off a decent amount.
The polter tune or the musicbox went off a few times.
And my dot projector didsomething I've never seen it do before,

(56:41):
and it started blinking.
I did take my phone out andtake a video when it started because
I had a stationary camerafaced towards where we were doing
EVP sessions.
Not at that, but I took mycamera out so I can post a video
of it.
But it started flashing andthe battery was fine.
It worked just fine after.
And it was just for a shorttime that it was flashing.

(57:01):
How weird.
Very weird.
I've never seen that happenbefore and I've used that a lot.
Even with you.
You've never seen it?
Yeah, never.
Also, we got some funresponses from some of the spirit
boxes as well.
And I'm going to play a fewclips from my voice recorder because
I did capture a lot of this.
At one point, it was just us three.
So Christina, Ashley P. Andmyself and two of the guys walked

(57:24):
into the room wearing hats.
But it's super dark.
It's hard to see who's coming,like around the corner until you,
like, stand up or like, callfor them.
And immediately we hear thefootsteps of them coming.
We can hear them kind of chit chatting.
And the Spirit box says, nice hat.
And we, like, call out.
We're like, which one of youis wearing a hat?
And they're like, we both are.
Apparently, the spirit lovetheir hat, but I'll play that clip

(57:46):
here, but if.
You ring the bell, we can start.
Using that to communicate too.
Okay.
Thank you.
It's a nice hat.
Who just walked in with a hat?
Both of you, Right?
Who's wearing a hat hat?
They like your hat.
I am.
We both are.
Yeah.
I thought both of you were also.
Someone really liked our shoes too.
Lindsay thinks otherwise, butI feel like they liked it.

(58:07):
There's a lot of talking goingon at this part of my recording.
So, like, all of us aretalking amongst ourselves when this
happened, but the spirit boxsaid, nice shoes.
And me and the employee fromFour Peaks look down, and we're both
wearing the exact same shoes.
And we had noticed that all night.
Like, I don't know.
I don't really look atanyone's shoes, but I'm like, oh,

(58:29):
are we twinsies?
I think that they liked ourshoes, but Lindsay has something
else to say about it.
I feel like they were like,nice shoes, nerd.
Like, that's.
That's what my head was.
That it was just a light roasting.
Not.
Not, like, overtly mean.
Just like, nice shoes.
Y' all just, like, matching.
You just.
You call each other up.
We coordinated chat first.
Yeah, yeah.
But I'm gonna play that clip.

(58:50):
Just know that there was a lotof talking at the beginning.
Nice shots about travelinglast time.
Maybe they like to hear nice shoes.
Whose shoes are we?
Are we twinsies?
I think we are.
Yeah.
We are fans.
Did it say nice shoes?
Yeah.
That's awesome.
We match.
You have fans, too.

(59:11):
Unaware that we have Vans fans around.
Yeah.
Now, we started in that room.
We did a few little other areas.
We did Anthony's room.
We came back into the bottlingroom, and then the last space we
went up to was an office space.
Well, when we were talkingabout going into the other room,
the last room, we asked toring the bell, if you want us to

(59:31):
go.
And it immediately rang, andit hadn't rung in a while, per my
recording.
So I thought that was interesting.
And I'll play that clip too.
So if you think we should gocheck out the upstairs room.
Can you touch the bell?
Okay.
All right.
All right.
On our way, we're gonna packit up.

(59:52):
All right, let's see.
Okay.
All right, we're going.
We're going, we're going.
Yay.
And then, just to note becausewe didn't mention it earlier when
we did the initial walkthroughof the space, the bottling room.
That's where I got my headache.
Justin had mentioned to usthat day that he kept seeing a shadow
figure in the hallway that ledto the office area.
So that's where we walkedthrough to go to the office that

(01:00:14):
last clip.
So there's this other areathat I wish we would have had more
time to explore.
But, like, it just feels likeit went so fast, even though it was
an overnight investigation.
It always does, though,doesn't it?
It did.
Like, I looked at the clockand I'm like, oh, my gosh, how is
it already 3am but the grainstorage room was very interesting
as well.
My group didn't spend a lot oftime in the area, but it did feel

(01:00:35):
like something was, like, inthe corner of it, watching.
Every time I had to walkthrough there, I feel like I would
walk a little quicker.
Like, oh, I just need to goget equipment.
I'll be right back.
And, like, not look around too much.
Cause especially when you'realone and you're like, is somebody
gonna run at me?
Please don't run at me.
Like, if you wanna be seen, sure.
But do not run at me.
Not that that's happened inthat area.

(01:00:56):
I would love to perceive you,but just don't skitter at me.
I don't need that.
Yeah, that's never happened.
There's no reason why that wasin my head, but I just felt like
something was in the cornerand it was gonna, like, step out.
Another room that we didexplore a bit was the fermentation
room.
And this is a big room.
And then at the end of theroom is where, like, Anthony's little
space is.
Yes.
And so in the video, if youhaven't watched it already, maybe

(01:01:19):
you pause now and you go watch it.
But what you'll see is that,like, you see these two large silver
things meant for brewing beer, undoubtedly.
And in between them, there's adark room.
And it does naturally draw the eye.
But when I tell you, I justfelt like this pull like this.
Just like, come here, comehere, come look.

(01:01:40):
It just felt like such a.
Like a focal point, which isvery bizarre.
And because, like, also, like,again, Amanda in the video isn't,
like, panning over, zooming in.
Like, don't you want to lookat this room?
She's just panning by.
And it was another situationwhere I had to try to pause it several
times to, like, get to theexact spot where I Was like, that's
where I feel it.
And it's not very big.
It's tiny.

(01:02:00):
And it's just a blip in the video.
Yeah, yeah.
It's interesting because thatis Anthony's face.
So the other group did have alot more go on in here and we will
play their clips at the endbecause we did ask what was the most
active space and, like, whatexperiences did you have?
We're gonna talk about theirnotes after our initial discussions
of each room.
So when I decided to go andinvestigate a bit that night, I was

(01:02:23):
with Ashley P. At that moment.
And we made it a point toknock before we entered.
So we knocked on the roombefore the.
Even the closet room and asked.
We're like, hey, can we comeover for a bit in this room?
We did have the polter tune gooff in the small closet area after
we had left.
So, like, we left the room, mycamera was recording and I immediately

(01:02:45):
flipped back around and I'mlike, of course, when I'm not recording
with my phone now, it goesoff, but you can hear it.
You just can't see it.
Fair.
And to note, we went in thereafter the other group had already
wrapped up their investigationin that room.
And I got the sense thatAnthony was just done peopling for
the day, which I can't blame him.
Yeah.
Not that anyone was rude orbad to him that night, but when people

(01:03:07):
come to your house and thenanother guest wants to come over,
I guess.
You'Re like, come on.
Yeah.
So, like, he wasn't so activefor us.
We did get the polter tune togo off.
We got a few responses hereand there from the spirit box, but
ultimately there wasn't a lotgoing on in there other than, like,
the feeling that he was there.
Yeah.
Fair.
Now, as we were leaving,that's when I said, like, the SLS

(01:03:29):
camera can have a false positive.
And as we were leaving that room.
That'S when I noticed that itwas kind of going off.
But it.
It was just equipment settingit off.
It wasn't anything.
So another room that we didn'tso much investigate, but we did walk
back and forth through severaltimes, was the keg room is what we're
going to call it becausethere's a long line of kegs.

(01:03:50):
This is where it feels likesomeone is watching you.
And a lot of people believethat it's Mr. Vogel.
And this room.
I may have said it was in theice machine room earlier, and I may
have misspoke, but it's a roomright before the ice machine room.
But there's like.
There's not like a door.
It's just a big open walkway.
So it's not completely aseparate room.
They are connected, butthere's a very big open walkway between

(01:04:13):
the two rooms.
But anyways, there's a bigmachine that probably does something.
I don't know what it does.
And a bunch of kegs in this room.
And near the machine, there'slike a sticker wall there.
Super cute.
I love it.
But I feel like someone isstanding there at all times just
watching you.
I don't like that at all.
And I was watching the video,and sometimes I'm just like an upset

(01:04:35):
Tommy gal, you know?
So I'm watching the video, itstarts off in this area, and I immediately
just felt nauseous, like sickto my stomach.
And I was like, maybesomething's just not sitting with
me, right?
You know, video goes, goes on,leaves the room, and it kind of goes
away, right?
And I'm like, maybe I was justnauseous for a second.
So then I restart the video.

(01:04:56):
Same feeling.
Like, I didn't even clock thatI felt nauseous because of that at
first.
Because I was like, that's weird.
Why would I feel nauseous?
But then it happened a fewtimes and I was like, oh, wait, it's
when I'm looking at this thingon the video.
So weird.
Very weird.
So weird.
Yeah, super strange.
And I mean, every time Iwalked by, because I'd have to walk

(01:05:16):
with my back towards thatsticker wall to go get equipment.
And I just felt like somethingstaring, just like eyes not blinking,
staring at me as I walked by.
It was very unsettling becauseit was, like, piercing.
But we didn't really do muchin that room because we were in that
bottling room so much.
But something's in therewatching, for sure.

(01:05:37):
I mentioned kind of the barseating area.
That's where our home base was.
But that's also connected tothis little walkway and bathroom
area.
So when we went into thebathrooms, we were going in pairs
because it just felt likesomeone was going to be in that area
when you turned or like whenyou came out of the bathroom.
So we just took turns.
And like, we were the oneswaiting outside the bathroom instead
of something else being there.

(01:05:59):
Yeah, no, that's fair.
Now, I had mentioned thatthere's this, like, barrel aging
room and it's cold.
The others got to do a lotmore investigating in that space
as well.
We walked through there acouple times, but we didn't get a
chance to actually spend a lotof time in there.
I wish I did, though.
I feel like that's probablyone of the hardest things, is trying
to get everywhere.
Right.
It's hard.
It's hard to, like, divideyour time the right way.

(01:06:22):
Yes.
And I just want to, like,stress that.
I'm sure when they do theirghost tour, like, they make it spookier.
But it doesn't look like ascary place.
It doesn't look like a placewhere you'd be afraid of it.
Just like, it just looks likea brewery.
It doesn't look like.
When we say, like, oh, it wasbuilt a long time ago, we're not
saying, like, it was built along time ago and it's an old, creepy
building.
We're just like, here's thehistory of it.

(01:06:42):
And the reason I say that isbecause when you.
When you watch the video, ifyou haven't already, it's not a place
that you're imaginingimmediately, like, oh, I'd be scared
of a ghost there, or I'd feela ghost there.
Right.
It's not that at all.
So in the video, it's, like,from Amanda's perspective, right.
So she's, like, facing theplastic curtain.
And I was like, to the left ofthat in the corner, there's something
there.
Weird.
Yeah.
And that's exactly where theyhad pointed out during our tour that

(01:07:07):
sometimes little girl is inthat corner.
So I thought it wasinteresting that Lindsay, like, just
from the video, was like,something's there.
The last place that weinvestigated, and this was probably
the most active place in ourinvestigation outside of the bottling
room, was the upstairs office.
And at the beginning of thenight, we had actually walked around
a little bit.
Just.
I mean, we had already done awalkthrough before, but we hadn't

(01:07:28):
gone in that area because it's.
It is a working office.
We don't want to interrupt or,you know, all of that, but at night,
no one was in there, so wewere able to walk through a bit.
But Ashley P. When we wentthere, she immediately looked up
at the stairs and was, like,freaked out.
And we're gonna read herthoughts and play her audio from

(01:07:49):
my recording.
But what she saw up there was unsettling.
What did you see?
Something at the top of thestep, but it was little, so I don't
know if it was like, an animal.
It almost kind of looked likea reddish.
Or a white cat could have been.
Or someone crawling, like, onthe floor, and just like, a hand
reach out, like, whatever it was.

(01:08:10):
It wasn't a person standing.
It was small.
It was, like, either crawling.
Like, a quick.
The thought of somethingcrawling is not my butt crap.
Like, like someone's hand orsomeone, like, peeking like that.
Like, it was short.
It was low to the ground, andit was super fast.
Like, if I look, it, like,peeked out.
I looked at it.
It was like we made eyecontact and then it was like.

(01:08:33):
The feeling was like.
Like, I mean, took my breath away.
Freaked me, like, instant chills.
Not good.
Not a good feeling.
Not a happy feeling.
And, yeah, then we came up thestairs and all of us as we walked
in here, like, I know it waswarm in here, but it felt like, just,
like, heavy and, like, why areyou here?
Type energy.
Yeah.
It was hiding up here and wefound it.

(01:08:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fuck you, man.
Like.
Like, you're not supposed tobe in here.
Don't mess with me.
Don't mess with me.
We don't want to mess with you.
We just want to learn about you.
Yeah.
And I don't know, depending on.
Spelt of it, it definitelyfelt like there was like a wall of
energy or something, like,pushing out.
And so immediately, as onedoes, we run up there to be like,

(01:09:16):
what's up there?
And can I tell you, when youwalk into that room that first time
at night, it was insanelyheavy feeling.
Like, it just felt not great.
I'm not gonna say bad or,like, scary.
Just not a great feeling.
Foreboding, one might say.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, like, I even remarkedthat it felt like a big room of anxiety.

(01:09:38):
We all had kind of anxietybeing up there.
And, I mean, she had just seensomething weird.
So, yeah, maybe it was that.
But when we left and then cameback up at the end of the night to
investigate it, it was a wholedifferent room.
It was light, it was interesting.
It was.
It wasn't heavy and, like, unsettling.
It was like a room with a lotof energy, but not anxiety energy.

(01:10:01):
Yeah, yeah.
It's just different.
Yeah.
So while we were up there, wedid do several Estes sessions.
And so if you aren't familiarwith Estes, basically the idea is
that when you are listening toa spirit box, right, you're asking
questions and you're hearingit flip through radio stations very
quickly.
Think about, like, howbumblebee talks.

(01:10:22):
It's kind of like that.
Yep.
And it'll piece together bitsof words.
But what's so strange about itis that it will do it at varying
speeds and you will pick upnot just, like, the sound of A word,
but the tone.
You'll even hear differencesin volume.
And then you can also,depending on the headphones that
you're wearing, sometimes youcan hear it, like, behind you.

(01:10:44):
Yes.
So if you're sitting with aspirit box and you're asking it questions,
you're inherently biased toget a response.
You want a response, which iswhy you're asking it a question.
And what Estes does is it kindof takes away that bias, because
the way it should work is thatthe person who is asking the questions
is not the listener.
The listener has noisecanceling headphones on and their

(01:11:07):
vision is obscured, so theycan't, like, read lips or anything.
And some people will even haveyou in, like, different spaces so
that it's, like, truly, like,impossible to know.
And the idea is, is that theperson who's listening is repeating
what they're hearing.
I always try to do it in thesame tone that I'm hearing it, so
it's like, clear thecommunication so that the person
who is hearing what I'm sayingknows if there's like an angry response

(01:11:28):
to a question.
Right?
Exactly, exactly.
And so it takes off that bias.
So it's just like you are justa conduit for answers.
Yes.
I'm just a little nerd for it.
I love it.
So we did a few Essie sessionsup there.
I actually wore the headphonestwice and Ashley did it once.
And towards the end of thenight, while we were up there, gathered
around this, like, meetingtable, like we were having an official

(01:11:50):
ghost meeting, the rest of thegroup did join us, and we did the
final SD session where I waswearing the headphones again.
Now, there were several clipsthat I found interesting.
Once reviewing the recordingbecause I had the headphones on,
I had no idea what was goingon or what questions they were asking.
So it was really cool to hearwhat I was saying versus what they
were saying.

(01:12:10):
Yeah, I do like that.
The first time we did it, Iactually sat on the floor and had
my back to the table so Icouldn't see or, you know, whatever
was happening.
And I did close my eyes justso I could, like, zone in on what
I was hearing.
And I felt like something hadcome up behind me.
And I took them off and turnedaround thinking that they were like,
hey, it's time to go, orsomething was happening.
Yeah.

(01:12:31):
No one had gotten up.
And I was like, but it was fine.
It was fine.
The second time I asked himthat I bring a chair over there so
that nothing could come to myback because I Didn't want my back
to be open because it was unsettling.
Also, one of the employees gottouched, and I will say that there's

(01:12:51):
no way of acting.
His face, when he got touched,like, he was.
I feel like he would be offdoing that.
Yes.
If he was that good at acting,that's probably what he'd be doing
for a living.
Because it was that genuine.
Yeah.
I also just feel like there'sjust some things you can't fake.
Yes, that was genuine.
Also, one of the people in theroom, when the Spirit box was going,

(01:13:13):
it said the name Mo.
And we're like, does a Mo work here?
Who's Mo?
And they're like, that is myfamily nickname.
No one knows that that's whatthey call me, and no one else in
this world calls me that.
There's no way anyone herewould know that.
I was like, interesting.
So there's a few really coolexperiences in this office.

(01:13:33):
Yeah.
But I'm gonna play a coupleclips from our session up there so
that you guys can hear, too.
This is from a voice recorderthat I had on the table.
And I will say, interestingly,I was using the Necrometer app, and
a few of the other people atthe table were using their apps as
well.
And someone else that wasusing an app, mine would go off,
and then, I don't know,seconds, 30 seconds later, theirs

(01:13:55):
would go off with somethingvery similar to mine.
And they're on airplane mode, correct?
Yeah, mine was for sure.
She's on airplane mode.
There's no way.
Yeah.
They're not talking to one another.
Yes.
Yes.
And so it was really fun.
When I was doing the SCsession, when I, you know, had the
headphones on, I gave them myphone so that they could see how
it would go back and forth.
I feel like there are multiplepeople that we were talking to in

(01:14:17):
that office.
Towards the end, too, I wasgetting a lot of Spanish responses,
and I understand some Spanish.
I understood a couple of thewords, but I didn't want to say it
wrong or, like, anything like that.
But there were a few Spanishresponses as well.
Fair.
I would be caught off guard, Ithink, by a different language, which
there's no reason to be.
I think I would just be surprised.

(01:14:37):
I'd be like, my brain can'tprocess this fast enough to actually
say it.
Yes.
And not only did I get thedifferent languages, I got male and
female voices.
I got some inflection.
I've got different ways of speaking.
Like, some spoke faster than others.
Some, like, said words differently.
And I tried to say it theexact same way.
And if I didn't fullyunderstand a sentence or something,

(01:14:59):
I made sure to say it out loudas well.
So now we're going to play acouple clips from the office.
The first couple are beforethe ST sessions.
And then I think you'll seethe difference between when we were
doing the actual sessions themselves.
Others have joined the circle.
Okay, then.
Our circle.
Hello.
You're welcome.
Our table meeting.

(01:15:20):
Mo.
M O, E. Who's Mo?
I'm just curious.
That's my family nicknamethat, like, nobody knows.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
No one at work knows that.
That's just what your familycalls you.
My whole family calls me Mo.
That's funny.
Sounds like.
So it's Zach and Mo.
It's like, I know you.

(01:15:42):
With the nice hats.
Yeah, the nice hats and shoes, apparently.
So.
It was interesting, though,because your phone just said what?
The day they became, thechildren were playing.
Yeah, the children play games.
The little girl likes you.
Yeah, the children play games.
And right after that, I gotthe day I became one.
So I'm wondering if that'sHarry saying we were playing games.

(01:16:04):
And that's when I became a ghost.
I just got 11.
He was 11 when he passed, right?
Yeah.
I just got chills.
Oh, my God.
I feel like.
Are you here?
I, like, could cry all of a sudden.
Are you touching people?
I am.
Experiment.
Oh, boy.
It's an experiment.
7.
3.
Well, I felt you.

(01:16:24):
We're feeling you.
Jack, how old are you?
34.
Whoa.
Were they sick with tuberculosis?
With consumption?
We were.
Oh, we were.
We're talking words.
Sure are.
I think.
Yeah.
You're something.

(01:16:47):
What year did you die?
Your mom.
Roman.
Roman.
Hello.
Sound like that.
Hello.
Here.
I'm here.
Where?
There.
Over there.
Over where?
We know you there.
They're standing there.
I got unseen and Harold back there.
My job's here.

(01:17:08):
What is?
You work here?
Are you Mr. Vogel?
Yes.
So now let's review some ofthe feedback that we got from the
other investigators.
So we asked everyone that wentabout what they thought the most
active area was and anyexperiences they had during the investigation.

(01:17:29):
And so they shared them with us.
Yes.
So Ashley Ann said in the backroom I was using the dowsing rods
and had asked if Anthony wasthe spirit's name, and it said no.
Then I felt a cold gust of wind.
Waist high and then two handson my thighs.
I tried to move and couldn't.
This has never happened to meon any investigation.

(01:17:49):
Justin had to move me.
During our time at the ramp,Danielle was asking some questions.
And right after one of thequestions was asked, Justin, Danielle
and myself all saw some whitefigure pass by the camera.
I did ask them, so do you havethat on camera?
And they said no, they saw it,but the camera didn't pick it up,
which I thought was interesting.
Weird.
Yeah, but that was kind of theother group.

(01:18:11):
So it was us three and thenAshley and Justin and Danielle.
And then the Four Peaksemployee was kind of, you know, watching
over everyone back and forth.
And then Zach was also kind offloating and visiting both groups.
Makes sense.
And then I'm going to readJustin's response as well.
Personally, I thought that themost active spot was in the office

(01:18:31):
upstairs as there was a shadowfigure who was hiding at the bottom
of the stairs.
There was a certain instancewhere I saw the shadow figure.
It went behind the corner.
And then one of the devicessaid shadow.
Zach and I both heard it andjust looked at each other.
The REM pod was also going offwhen no one was near it.
I believe this is the mostactive spot because I believe this
is the most secluded spot.

(01:18:51):
And it also felt like some ofthe spirits were curious as to what
we were doing there.
I wanted to either be heard orat the very least be known that they
are there.
Danielle, Ashley and myselfwere looking at the ramp near the
ice machine and Danielle wasasking some sort of questions.
And as soon as she asked, allthree of us saw some sort of white
figure come into the camera.
So again, Ashley had mentionedthat just a moment ago.

(01:19:13):
Yeah, in the barrel room, itfelt like a little child was just
watching me and was staring at me.
I would say the shadow figureI saw multiple times was no bigger
than an eight year old kid.
It kept crossing where thecurtains were, almost like pacing,
waiting to be asked a questionor something.
At the ramp where the icemachine is located, it felt like
I was off balance and not ableto stand straight.

(01:19:34):
Once off the ramp, I felt fine.
And then for Ashley P.Remember, she didn't go to the initial
walkthrough.
So her first walkthrough wasnight of was live baby.
Things were happening.
So she said.
My initial feeling at FourPeaks was excitement.
I was the only investigatorthat was not at the recon, so I had

(01:19:54):
no prior walkthrough.
My impatience got the best ofme early on and I ventured solo into
the dark keg room.
It was not very far in when Ifelt like I was being watched unwanted
and fearful.
I did a U turn rather quicklyback to the setup table where everyone
was the Energy felt active tome immediately.

(01:20:14):
They knew that we were thereand we were ready.
But she said my most shockingoccurrence took place in the barrel
aging room looking up at thetop of the office steps.
To this day, I'm still notentirely sure what or who I saw,
but it was low to the groundand had two eyes.
I initially thought it was theghost cat rumored to roam the brewery,

(01:20:34):
but it's hard to say for sureconsidering the adrenaline pumping
through me and being paralyzedin fear for what I could assume was
maybe 30 seconds.
I just know that we lockedeyes and every hair on my body was
standing up.
I wanted to scream, but I wasliterally frozen stiff.
I do want to clarify that Idid not feel anything negative or
evil.
Just curious.

(01:20:55):
It was just the shock and sounnatural for me to physically see
something there that my fightor flight kicked in naturally.
Fair, right?
Absolutely fair.
And she makes it sound likeshe, like, made a spectacle and,
like, was frozen.
She was the coolest, fearfulperson I've ever experienced.
Just like, completely like,oh, something is occurring kind of.

(01:21:17):
Yeah, yeah.
Just very, like, deadpan.
Because she, like, looked at us.
She's like, I just saw this.
And she, like, quickly.
We weren't set up or anything.
I was setting up actually thetrail cam to face the stairs at that
time.
It did not catch it, but I wassetting it up and I actually had
put it facing the stairs, but anyways.
And her eyes are wide, butshe's like.
She didn't freak out.
She didn't scream.
She didn't, like, feed it.

(01:21:38):
She was just like, there'ssomething there.
I'm here to report on this.
Yeah, she was so good about it.
I love it.
Yeah.
This is the only time I've hadthis type of experience.
Now that time has passed andI've replayed my experience over
and over.
I think it was either a spiritanimal or a person that was low to
the ground and peeking out atme with just their face.

(01:21:58):
Hard pass either way, havingthe rest.
Of their body behind the wall.
Just the thought of a crawlyghost, you know, like.
But also very funny becauseyou're like, this is going to scare
someone.
Like, this is gonna be funny.
Oh, yeah.
It all happened faster than mybrain could process.
I would add that emotion andenergy control is important to me

(01:22:20):
in life and in investigations.
That being said,investigations can get emotional.
I'm an empath to start, and itcan be draining on the human body.
Also, I felt it was imperativeto reset myself as best as I could
to remain natural for anhonest investigation.
See, she's a pro already.
That's not easy to do aftersuch excitement.

(01:22:40):
And yeah, like, that's proinvestigator status if I ever heard
one.
Absolutely.
To be able to not freak thefuck out.
So now we're going to playChristina's audio about her experiences
that night.
I was overheating a lot andfelt I couldn't really get the best
investigative experience as Iwas hoping for throughout the night.
There were rooms I would haveliked to have spent more time in,

(01:23:01):
but it just didn't work out.
That being said, I think therooms that I did spend time in did
feel active.
The bottling room seemed toyield intelligent responses, whether
it was via cat balls, theDeadbell, Poltertune spirit box,
or through apps.
I was using the Spirit Talkerapp and I believe Ashley was using

(01:23:24):
the Necromancer app.
And I think we also might havegotten some responses, or at least
we had some weird happeningswith the laser grid.
The laser grid dots at onepoint began flickering and it was
in a way that I was notfamiliar with, nor was Amanda, had
ever seen or experienced it before.
And it was just really odd.

(01:23:45):
It felt like it was paranormal.
Could be wishful thinking, butit had a weird vibe.
It could be the batteries weredraining and it was just kind of
flickering for dear life, butthe vibe still felt like it was something
possibly paranormal.
I don't know if it was theheat affecting me, but at times it
appeared like there wassomething against the back wall where

(01:24:07):
the laser grid was.
Even though it wasn'tdisrupting the light pattern, it
still seemed like there wasjust something moving back there
against the wall.
On my app, the Spirit Talker,I received the name Joe and Josephine,
and it felt like it was alittle girl that was experienced
by this dash.
I get the sense that she'saround nine years old, blonde hair,

(01:24:31):
maybe mid upper class, early1900s, Edwardian period.
I don't really see her wearinglike traditional factory work clothes.
It just seems like she'swearing something a little bit nicer.
So maybe she was the daughter,relative, niece of somebody kind
of important that that workedat that building.
So I got that name on theSpirit Talker app.

(01:24:52):
And then later on, afterreviewing some of the footage in
the nearby office called theTP meeting office, which is on the
second floor, I believe Icaptured a little girl giggling and
saying hi, and then latergetting another EVP with the name
Josephine in a woman's voice,and then third in a more stern woman's

(01:25:14):
voice, kind of like When amother has had enough of their child
being annoying and isexasperated just at their wits end.
So that voice came in and itsounded like they were saying, okay,
Josephine, I don't know, I getthis sense that the little girl was
there and she was interactingwith us.
So that upstairs officedefinitely seemed to be very active.

(01:25:35):
There were other EVPs and sometapping sounds occurring in the room
without anyone present.
When we did gather up to wrapup the night with an SD session,
we seemed to be gettingintelligent responses as well.
Multiple devices.
Amanda was the transmitter, soshe was the person with the headphones
listening to the spirit box,relaying what was coming across.

(01:25:57):
While the rest of our group,Ashley, Zach, staff member and myself,
we were asking questions.
We received responses fromAmanda as well as from multiple devices.
Our apps, Spirit Talker,Necromancer, the devices Dead Bell
Ultra Tune, Music Box.

(01:26:18):
And it was really exciting tosee that when we would ask a question,
we could see these differentforms of communication being utilized
at the same time to answer thesame question.
So we might ask, I don't know,I don't remember the questions, but
we might ask a question andthe polter tune might go off and

(01:26:38):
then we would get a responseon the Spirit Talker app and then
also on the Necromancer app.
And it was just really cool.
I've never, I haven't had aninvestigation yet to be able to use
multiple devices like this atone time and then to also be getting
responses through the spiritbox from Amanda.
It just seemed like at thatmoment we had a really good rhythm

(01:27:02):
and everything was just insync for us to have that experience
and it was really pretty cool off.
I'm glad that she brought upthe Dots projector too because that
was very bizarre and I kind ofspaced it until I went back and looked
at the video.
And then also, yeah, with allthe equipment going off and you know,
I had the headphones on.

(01:27:22):
So getting to replay all ofthat was interesting.
Like hearing the responsesfrom all the various equipment that
we had, it was great becauseChristina has a ton of equipment
too.
So it was just awesome.
We all investigated as agroup, like in the best way.
I loved it.
And then what Danielle sent tous was so during the investigation,
the walkway into the brewingarea stood out the most and she had

(01:27:45):
felt a sudden shift in energyin that area.
And at the same time she saidthat the reporter also did.
Like they both felt it at thesame time.
I began to feel sick in thearea, like I was suffering from some
kind of illness or Severe fluthat had symptoms like chills, fever,
stomach issues, and muscleaches and dehydration.
That's intense, right?

(01:28:05):
I don't want to feel that onan investigation.
She's like a trooper.
I felt that whoever hadsuffered these symptoms in the area
was male.
I remembered seeing theepisode of Ghost Adventures a long
time ago and thought that theenergy would be more negative or
menacing.
This didn't seem to be thecase during the actual investigation.
And I. I would have to agree.
But we all know GhostAdventures, like, sensationalizes

(01:28:27):
everything.
There didn't really seem to beany spirits in distress or excessively
negative or angry.
They seem to come and go asthey please, interacting intentionally
and according to their own preferences.
The energy seemed to be morecurious and selective.
After experiencing issuesduring the walkthrough, I took preventative
measures to ensure no energywould remain after the actual investigation.

(01:28:50):
And this worked well.
So I experienced no strangeoccurrences after.
And I will say she shared withus, like, what she does and like
a prayer that she does afterwards.
And she sent it to us, and itwas very interesting.
Also, she's being so kind here.
At one point when we were inthe office, she was chatting about
how something said it wantedto stab her.
And her response was, no,thank you.

(01:29:14):
Just so I'm good.
Yeah.
So collected and cool about it.
Like, something's telling youit wants to stab you.
And I think it was just tryingto get a rise.
Like, I really, truly do not think.
Anything bad is there, but no,thank you.
With the same energy ofdeclining a sample.
Yes, yes.
And so when she was chattingabout it, we're like, what?

(01:29:35):
And she's like, I just said,no, thank you.
And we're like, that was kindof like a running joke now when they're
all chatting.
No, thank you.
Yeah, love it.
So now I feel like that's whatwe're gonna use during investigations
when something's not being so kind.
No, thank you.
I was getting ready to do theEstes method when they walked in.
And so I was, like, getting,you know, in that mindset as they
were talking about it, and wewere kind of laughing.
And then I'm like, okay, nowit's time for Estes method.

(01:29:57):
So anyways, our finalinvestigators thoughts, Nadine.
The back room, Anthony's loftfelt like it was the most active.
The atmosphere was heavierthan anywhere else in the building.
That's where we had theclearest, most intelligent communication
through both the dowsing rodsand spirit box.
Our conversation with Anthonywas the highlight.
He answered direct Questionson the dowsing rods.
Even name dropped a presidentthrough the spirit box that matched

(01:30:20):
the year we were talking about.
And we heard a few unsettling laughs.
I also strongly felt thepresence of three distinct spirits,
not visually, but throughsensations like tingling and pressure
in my neck and back.
So she's very sensitive to things.
So I thought that wasinteresting that like that's how
she perceived that there were three.
Yeah, yeah.
And so Amanda and I alwaysgive unsolicited ish paranormal investigation

(01:30:43):
advice.
So we were curious what advicethe other investigators here would
give you.
And this is what they said.
Ashley P. Said, don't antagonize.
Be polite and respectful.
Justin said, do your researchon the place and get the facts as
much information as you can.
Always be respectful and showrespect to the spirits.
Always stand your ground andlet the spirits know that they are

(01:31:04):
not allowed to follow you home.
Always protect yourself andhave some sort of ritual you perform
after an investigation.
Ashley P. Said, just trustyour instincts.
Investigate with a group thatyou work well with and trust.
Make sure you leave with no attachments.
Adopt your own rituals.
Research and prepare.
Be well hydrated and rested.
Do your research.
Check and charge your equipment.

(01:31:25):
Be respectful to the owners ofthe building that you investigate,
your crew and the spirits youcome in contact with.
And we're going to playChristina's here.
The tips and tricks that Iwould offer.
Be patient.
A lot of investigations arejust sitting around asking questions
and waiting, hoping for a response.
A lot of times it's dead air.

(01:31:46):
You're not really getting aresponse and you're not really getting
interactions.
That's a lot of, a lot of patience.
And the chances of havinganything move in front of you are
incredibly rare.
So when it does happen, it'skind of exciting.
But also do take that momentto try and debunk it.
Was it from an airdraft?
Was it from somebody walking?

(01:32:06):
Is there anything in theenvironment that could have caused
it to occur or have a nonparanormal explanation?
And then also because there isa lot of downtime and just waiting,
hoping for a response.
Use each opportunity to get toknow your equipment better and improve
your investigative techniques.
And then Danielle said, Iwould emphasize that paranormal investigations

(01:32:28):
should not be pursued for thesole purpose of entertainment.
Locations and entities shouldbe treated with respect and approach
with empathy and integrity.
Spirits are just people who nolonger occupy a body and are working
through their own issues intheir own time.
Some are stuck and some chooseto remain in certain locations.
Like living people.
Most spirits are not bad andmay even need help to move on.

(01:32:49):
Conversely, more negativeentities and spirits do exist and
can cause significant issuesif they choose to attach themselves
to a living place, person, or thing.
It's important to havereverence and appropriate precautions
and protocols when workingwithin the realm of the paranormal.
I'm not saying this to causeundue fear, but rather as a statement
of fact and based on personal experience.
And I think that's really fair.

(01:33:10):
I feel like those are, like,some things that people don't always
say.
Like, consider why you'redoing this.
Right.
If you're, like, there tosimply be entertained, maybe you
just go on a ghost tour andlet somebody tell you about experiences
people have had.
Yeah.
Like you hear ghost stories asopposed to trying to interact with
a ghost specifically because.
Rather than trying tocommunicate with something specifically

(01:33:33):
because you could absolutelyend up putting yourself in a dangerous
situation and not even mean to.
Yes.
And then last but not least,Nadine said start simple.
You don't need all the fancy gadgets.
An EMF detector, a spirit box,or even dowsing rods are plenty.
And I'm just going tointerject as well as a notebook.
More importantly, go in withrespect spirits for people once.

(01:33:55):
And when you treat them thatway, you're more likely to get real
communication.
Protect yourself, too.
Find what works for you,whether it's crystals, groundings,
or cleansing after.
With all of that said, I thinkLindsay and I have already shared
our thoughts several timesabout investigations in general.
Right.
Be safe.
Be kind.
Protect yourself.
Protect your group.
Make sure that you're, likeyou said, doing it for valid reasons.

(01:34:16):
Be well rested.
Yes.
Learn.
Don't be exhausted.
Yes.
And don't just immediatelybelieve you're talking to someone
because someone said you are.
Yes.
You may not be.
We've gone through so manythat we'd be here all day.
But anyways, so rounding thisout a little, just some interesting
thoughts that I had afterresearching to kind of come back

(01:34:38):
to who might be there.
So earlier in the episode, webrought up two different Victors.
Victor Vogel, who was thesuperintendent, and then Victor Corbell,
who was the friend of Harry,which was the boy that died after
getting electrocuted.
Right.
Victor was the one on theground that saw his friend die.
Mm.
Super weird theory.
And I have nothing to go offof, but perhaps the Victor that the

(01:35:01):
employees believe is watching them.
I believe it could be eitherVictor, and here's why.
I think that both Victors hada pretty good chance of knowing each
other in their time in Tempe.
And I went down a Rabbit holelast night, because I was like, I
reread the article aboutHarry, right.
And I saw Victor's name again,and I'm like, why do I feel like

(01:35:21):
I want to look up whathappened to Victor?
Like, what happened after hisfriend died?
I don't know why.
There's no reason I did this.
And also, we don't do that a lot.
No.
And so I feel like thatinclination, just even that itch
would make me be like, hmm.
My head also started tingling,like, in the crown of my head, like
it does when we were saying that.
Because I also.

(01:35:42):
I do have an idea that kind ofgoes with this, but continue.
Okay.
So, yeah, last night at, like,I was messaging Lindsay, I think
at like, midnight, when I wasstill working on this, because I
went down this rabbit hole,and I'm like, I need to look up what
happened to Victor Corbel.
So I did.
And I had already looked upVictor Vogel because I had already
did the notes for the articleabout his life.

(01:36:03):
And then I had looked into,like, what he did and where he was
born and all that fun stuffabout him.
But both Victor's lives dooverlap quite a bit.
And it's like, more than Ithought could ever happen.
They were both involved inTempe Rotary Club.
Both worked with the TempeUnion High School District.
They both worked with theChamber of Commerce.
And both of them were prettybig influences to help shape Tempe's

(01:36:28):
infrastructure.
Hmm.
Maybe this is.
This is my, like, randomtangent thoughts.
Maybe Corbell told Vogel aboutthe accident because he knew Vogel
worked there and how safetywas so important.
And to be sure all theemployees and visitors stayed safe.
Because I feel like if Iexperienced that and I was like,

(01:36:49):
you work there where my friend died.
Listen, like, this happened.
Make sure it doesn't happen again.
Right.
Like, I don't know.
That's just what I would do.
Yeah.
But also not really related.
Kind of related, but notreally related.
But once I learned this, itmade me really sad.
Last night, Corbel dedicated alot of his life working for the Salt
River Project.

(01:37:09):
We call it SRP here, which isa water and power company, Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's no way that, like,this shaped him.
Yes, of course it did.
So he oversaw Some of SRPstransition into hydroelectric and
water powered systems.
And I'm like, I don't knowanything about power.
Right.
Like, I don't know.
Yeah.
You're not an energy scientist.

(01:37:30):
I am not.
I should be, I guess.
But I did Google a few Things.
And from what I saw, like, alot of new safety measures were implemented,
especially, like, while theywere transitioning to hydroelectric
power.
And I wonder if watching hisfriend tragically die because of
old school, perhaps mismanagedelectricity inspired his work to

(01:37:52):
create a safer power system.
And not that, like, him handson, was doing this, but as everything
was evolving, he was working there.
It steered him.
Yeah, yeah.
And I did a quick dive into1900, like, early 1900s power.
And there wasn't much safetysurrounding it, especially when Harry
died.
Like, there wasn't caution signs.

(01:38:13):
There wasn't fences aroundthese posts.
There wasn't anything like wehave today when we have, like, active
wires or.
I don't know if that even is athing anymore.
But anyways, hold on.
You have a song, though, right?
What the hell are you talking about?
Well, if you are fromMaryland, listen after the outro
so you can sing along with mebecause you'll know this song.

(01:38:34):
It's gonna go at the end whereit's more appropriate when we're
not talking about a childwho's passed away, but we'll sing
the song together at the end.
Not you, because you don'tknow it, but Maryland people, they
will know exactly this song,and they know what I'm talking about
right now.
Okay.
Maryland people.
And when you were like, it'snot like they have anything.
I'll be like, no, they'reteaching kids here now.
Oh, quite specifically, we'rein Arizona school districts.

(01:38:55):
We don't learn.
No, this is.
This isn't from teachers.
Oh, yeah.
Interesting.
Okay.
Yeah, but we'll get there.
We're not ranked very high, unfortunately.
That's why we homeschool.
But, yeah, anyways.
Yeah, I, like, looked into the1900s power, and I was like, oh,
there really wasn't a lot of,like, safety precautions.

(01:39:15):
And then at the time framethat he worked for srp, like, he
was a pretty big pivotalperson there, but at the time frame,
I feel like it was developingto be safer.
And just like that, he.
He dedicated his work life to power.
I mean, he was.
He did serve in the militaryand did all kinds of other stuff,
too, but just I thought thatwas interesting.
And then I'm like, well, whatif he went back, too, to make sure

(01:39:37):
that no one else got hurt?
Who could say?
It could be either Victor inmy head.
So could I give you just,like, an alternate possible idea?
Yes.
So we talk about it more withGhost Chat with Zach.
Okay.
But I feel a lot of how weview the spiritual self in terms
of like, the afterlife andsometimes the current life, if you
will, is that your soul islike a set package that is all together

(01:40:00):
as one and it cannot be separated.
Pieces cannot be other places.
Right.
Alternatively, you couldbelieve in a higher consciousness
and that you could havedifferent versions of yourself at
different times on this planet.
And if that's the case, ifit's possible that you're like, full
soul, body, follow me here, right?

(01:40:21):
That it can be broken off intobits here and there.
So why couldn't little Victorgo hang out with his friend, right?
Cause, I mean, like, we'vetalked about there.
There being possibly severalchildren there.
And, like, if I know onething, it's that the more children
you have together, the moremischievous they become.
Oh, for sure.
Couldn't you see, like, agroup of little kid ghosts, like,

(01:40:42):
crawling around to try toscare people?
Like, it feels like pranks.
Like there's several littlekids around causing, like, hijinks
in that way.
The worst moments in yourlife, right.
It's like you see thishorrible thing, Right.
And that's terrible andtraumatizing, but you also lost someone.
And how nice to have a part ofyou that perhaps could go experience
some time with a part of that person.

(01:41:04):
Yeah.
That's interesting becausewhen we think about little kid ghosts,
sometimes it feels very sad tobe like, oh, no, like a whole little
kid is stuck.
Like a whole little kid's soulis stuck.
But, like, maybe it's just alittle bit.
Yeah, yeah.
And yeah, we will go over thatmore in our ghost chat.
Yeah.
But with all that being said,this place is a place to visit, I'd
say.
And if you want to do kind ofa spooky visit.

(01:41:27):
Ghost tour.
Tickets for the HauntedBrewery tour are live.
We're gonna have the link forthem in our show notes, and we've
shared them already a few times.
But we'll make sure to sharetheir socials on our socials so that
you can find them.
Check them out.
If you do visit, I wanna knowyour thoughts on the theme and how
excited you were when you sawwhat it was.

(01:41:47):
I think it's definitely activeand everyone should check it out.
Whether it's for ghostyreasons or just to hang out.
It is a really cool, like,space too, just to see the history.
It's an old building.
It's a lot of fun, though.
Like, it has fun energy as well.
And I feel like even just likeall the employees that we encountered
while eating there and gettinga drink and all that, everyone just
seems so cheerful and like,they work together so nicely.

(01:42:09):
You know, like, when you're inthose environments, when you visit
an establishment and you'rejust like, this has good vibes, and
I like it here.
Yeah, that's what that is.
That's what makes you want to be.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, Lindsay, you ready?
Yeah.
We officially certify FourPeaks certified spooky.
Yeah, it's our first one.
It's really official.
It's official.
Official.

(01:42:30):
Official.
Special thank you to FourPeaks and their employees for being
such great hosts to us duringour walkthrough and our investigation.
They had to deal with ustwice, and they were fantastic each
time.
And then also remember, westill have an interview with Zach
at the end of our episode, andwe're calling it Ghost Chat with
Zach.
And he is writing a spookyarticle as well.

(01:42:50):
And once his article comesout, we will be sharing it on our
socials, so you can find it as well.
But Lindsay and I are gonnasay goodbye in a moment.
But continue listening to hearour interview with Zach.
Also, the Sick Sing along forMaryland people, whatever that is.
Yeah, that too.
And with that, have a great weekend.
Thanks for creeping with us.
Okay, so how our investigationcame together originally is because

(01:43:15):
of a man named Zach who wantedto write about an investigation at
Four Peaks.
So we did ask him somequestions as well.
And if you want to followalong with his article, his Instagram
is Odoned Eats.
So our first question.
How did you first getinterested in the paranormal?

(01:43:36):
I grew up in the south, and I.I was talking to somebody, and they
were like, oh, yeah, the South.
You guys all believe in ghosts.
And I. I kind of.
Because I'm a teacher, and itwas one of my colleagues, and, like,
they have, like, a PhD inliterature, and that was their takeaway.
And I. I was like, well, yeah,I guess we do.
If we don't believe in ghosts,we're certainly, like, haunted in

(01:43:57):
a way.
You know, it's a very gothicplace, and when you're growing up,
you just kind of.
I don't think there was ever apoint where.
And this is what I'm wrestling with.
The story is like, how do Ibelieve in?
Do I believe in ghosts?
Do I believe in what do I believe?
And it's just always been kindof a part of the Southern experience
is that you just.
Ghosts are real.

(01:44:17):
They're there as real as people.
They're people, and they takeup places and spaces, and they're
kind of a way to tell storiesabout where we came from and who.
Who we came from good and bador otherwise.
So I just.
There's never been a moment inmy life where I just didn't, especially
when I was little, think thatthat was a thing.
So I love that.
And I had a buddy's house whenI was little that he said was haunted.

(01:44:39):
And that freaked me out.
I was like, oh, my God, it'sghost stories.
So, yeah, I don't know.
That makes sense.
So I feel like I very muchresonate with the idea of, like,
it's not necessarily that Ibelieve in ghosts.
It's just that they're anassumed fact in my brain.
And, like, the experiencesthat I've had have made that.
So it's not even so much of abelief as it is as a. Yep, that's
a fact.
Now, is a certain place haunted?

(01:45:00):
Let's find out.
Yeah, I.
You know, I'm a writer and Iteach writing.
And one thing I go back to isthere's definitive fact, truth.
Like this happened in thisorder in the sequence, and we were
there, and we can verify.
Then there's fact of feeling,in fact of memory.
And those are very subjective.
And, you know, that.
That is harder to parcel out.

(01:45:20):
But when you look at storieslike Shakespeare is.
Is full of ghosts.
Like, you know, Hamlet openswith a ghost.
And what you have to assume ofhis audience is that if they didn't
believe in ghosts, theycertainly were inundated with the
idea of ghosts.
You know, no one.
No one in that opening ofHamlet goes like, wait, a what?
You know, like, they're justlike, oh, yeah, ghost.
Julius Caesar.

(01:45:41):
There's like.
There's so much Shakespeareand ghost stuff, you know, 500 years
ago.
And then you go back to theBible again.
This is like, maybe mySouthern upbringing, but, like, that's
just a book that's.
Even if you're not aChristian, it's just there around
you.
Yeah.
Super old.
Yeah.
And.
And, you know, there's a scenewhere Jesus is walking on the water,
right?
And it's so iconic, but hisdisciples are afraid because they

(01:46:04):
don't know who he is.
And they think one of themsays he's a ghost.
It's a.
That's a ghost.
And so you have to go like,okay, well, 2,000 years ago, they
were thinking, well, ghostsare a thing.
I just think it's.
It's a part of maybe the human experience.
Is the idea of this sort ofstory beyond us a little bit.
So, yeah, to me, that rings true.
If we tell stories to reflectourselves and reflect our world,

(01:46:28):
ghosts are just A part of it.
A part of all of storytellingand a really cool story.
So.
Yeah.
Right.
I love that.
And so what made you want todo an investigation at Four Peaks
or write about it?
I've written about Four Peaksa couple of times now.
I really love that team, the collab.
Like, their creativity, theway they are very rooted in the community

(01:46:50):
in Tempe, and I really liketheir beer.
They do a really phenomenal job.
Yeah.
And hearing the stories andfrom people I wouldn't normally think,
or ghosty people, you know, Iwas like, okay.
And then at one of thedinners, they do dinners occasionally
in the back room.
And after it was over and wewere kind of mingling, he was like,

(01:47:11):
do you want to do a littleghost thing real quick?
And I was like, okay.
And, you know, it's maybe 10o', clock.
And he took us through, like,the Anthony Room, and it just felt
really eerie and heavy.
Kind of not like something I'dencountered a lot.
I don't know if that was maybethe beer also kind of working.
But, you know, it got methinking that there's been a lot

(01:47:34):
of investigations in theplace, and it's kind of.
It's definitely a part of whothey present themselves as.
But I was curious to see ifthere were other ways to go about
doing it and also, like, howmuch of it was just maybe people
telling stories and continuingto tell a story, so.
Oh, yeah.
That's common with a lot ofhaunted places, too.

(01:47:56):
Yeah.
Or a misinterpretation ofsomething or.
Yeah, there's so many.
I got more freaked out when Iwatched, like, the Ghost Hunters
video afterwards.
And then I was honestlydreading the experience a little
bit.
I was like, I don't want to.
I don't want to do this.
Oh, no.
I was like, I, yeah, wasfreaked out.

(01:48:16):
I freaked myself out.
It was kind of the more to the point.
So that's how you felt goinginto the investigation, then, is
just freaked out from the show or.
Yeah.
What were your thoughtsleading up?
Well, I'm pretty obsessive inmy research.
And so, like, I read two orthree books.
I read Ghostland.
Oh, you told me about that one.
Which is really good.

(01:48:37):
And the other one, I can'tremember the name, but it's two female
historians that take a lookat, like, iconic American ghost stories.
So one of them was, like,through a lens of, like, race.
One of them was through, like,a feminist lens.
And then I. I did, like, aHaunted Phoenix kind of touristy
book.
And by that point, I wasreally down the rabbit hole.

(01:48:58):
And then I started watchingYouTube videos.
There's endless ones.
Yeah.
And, and, and, and just ofthat space.
And there's so many of FourPeaks ghost tours and like, ghost
adventures.
And the through line for me isthey were all kind of very sensational

(01:49:19):
and a little aggressive.
So I think part of that is,like, hamming it up for the camera.
But that put me off a littlebit, and I think I started to get
in my own head a little bitabout supernatural experiences.
My first encounter at FourPeaks, which I honestly.
My wife and I had verydifferent takeaways from that because
we were doing it together andI felt very not at ease and she was

(01:49:45):
kind of fine with it.
And so it got me thinkingabout, honestly, like, I don't ghost
tourism, if that makes sense.
And.
Yeah.
So I don't know.
But I was freaked out.
I was dreading it.
I did not want to.
To go, to be honest.
I was like, it's going to be alate night.
And I honestly.

(01:50:05):
A little freaked out by the idea.
But then I also was like.
But I don't honestly know if Ieven believe in this and if this
place is haunted.
So.
Yeah, you know, I don't know.
Is there, like a ghost huntertherapy thing I should go to or.
I think that that's like,really a common thought, though,
when you're going to a haunted place.
Because when I have seen howother people who do, like paranormal

(01:50:27):
investigations, how theyinteract with a space and they're
disrespectful, I find it,like, kind of cringy.
And I have this, like,visceral response.
It feels like walking intosomeone's house and just like, screaming
at them for no reason.
And I feel like that's kind oflike a discomfort that it's a sign
that perhaps that you're akind paranormal investigator in the

(01:50:47):
making that.
Well, thank you.
I.
You're welcome.
I. I don't know if I'll beinvestigating any further paranormals.
These are my final paranormals.
That Southern accent.
There we go.
It's more of a character Islip into, but I understand.
I don't.
I don't know.
I'm always wary, like, becauseI do food writing and, you know,

(01:51:10):
I'm a white male from thesouth with a big beard and like,
you know, I get what thatmaybe presents as or like, what it.
So you have to be, like,careful if you want a good connection
with anybody you're writing about.
I think you have to put themat ease and you have to Be curious.
You have to, like, suspend anypreconceived ideas and just be open.

(01:51:33):
You have to be in the present.
Okay.
If that, you know, like, so Imay have my own biases or my own
ideas, but in that moment, Iam going to do my best to.
To let the subject do whatthey want to do and say what they
need to say, because it'sabout them, and it's not about me.
Tourism is.
It's about going to a placethat you were not from.

(01:51:54):
And, you know, we are.
We are living.
We are not in the after, ifthat is a thing.
But if it is a thing and thesepeople or spirits do stick around
for whatever reason, I wouldbe really mad, like, after a certain
point to be like, you know, just.
It's like poking a animal in azoo or something.

(01:52:15):
And that's one thing I reallylearned in watching the investigation
unfold was there was consent,there was asking for permission,
there was asking for, youknow, if.
If it was something that was they.
That they wanted or.
Or were willing to do.
It was not a.
An aggressive attempt toprovoke a reaction.

(01:52:39):
So it really turned my.
My perception of what I.
What this could look like orbe like or feel like.
Kind of inverted it a bit, soit was a cool takeaway.
Oh, I'm glad.
So once you got in there, thenwhat did you think?
Going around.
I know this might be at thebeginning of our episode, so when
we did do the investigation,we were kind of broken up into groups

(01:52:59):
because it's such a largeplace, and you guys got to float
a little bit and see all ofthe groups and what was going on
in all the rooms.
Yeah.
I joked it looked like in themovie Aliens when the space marines
were, like, setting up alltheir equipment, and, like, you know,
they're ready to go and fight, and.
And they're like.
And I'm just, like, standingthere like, what does this do?

(01:53:20):
And how do you hold this?
And where does that.
Like, I'm an idiot.
But no, it's all new to all ofus at some point.
Yeah.
And I was just like, wow, thisis a lot of equipment.
And I. I was like, I feel bad.
Like, they had to, like, bringit all in.
And it's like, like.
And then it kind of happened,and I didn't know what was happening
or, like, Justin went off like.
Like, he's, like, doing recon.

(01:53:41):
But then everybody kind ofjust went.
I was like, wait, are we doingthis now?
Like, I'm not.
Let's go.
Time.
I'm not, like, Mentally, like,what do we.
I thought there was, like, aritual or I thought there was, like,
a.
And so that moment was.
I was freaked out because nowthere's no, like, in my mind, there's
like, what's the plan?
And I'm.
I'm, like, observing.
And I was with two other.

(01:54:01):
Nadine and Danielle.
Yeah.
And we walked and turned thatcorner, and it just felt really heavy
and, like, kind of creepy scary.
In that one specific spot,which was by the kegs.
Yep, I know exactly whatyou're talking about.
Yeah.
Near the.
What we call the old.
The older wooden keg room,which was, I think, where they put

(01:54:23):
their casts.
And then.
And then that made me.
Probably part of it was justpsyching myself out.
But once we reconvened andkind of came up with a plan, I felt
much better.
And then, you know, had abetter, like, kind of feel.
But, yeah, that was my first.
It was like, I. I was like,can I curse on this thing or is this
like a. Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.

(01:54:44):
I was like, oh, this is happening.
And I was like, I guess I'mrolling with it now.
I'm in for a penny, in for a pound.
So.
Yeah.
You know, at home alone, wherehe's like, this is it.
Don't get scared now.
That was just in my head, andI still got a little scared, so.
Oh, it's unsettling when you,like, even us, we've gone to several.

(01:55:06):
And leading up to.
You're like, oh, what can happen?
Because we've had night andday differences between day to day.
We did two investigationsearlier this year, back to back,
and they were completelydifferent investigations.
One was super aggressive, Onewas so fun.
We played hide and seek with ghosts.
Kind of fun.
Like, what are the coolestthings I've ever done in my life?
Yeah.
And.

(01:55:26):
Yeah, it sounds ridiculous.
No, no, no.
It sounds like, like.
Well, when I first thoughtabout it, I was like, how would,
you know, manage your own.
Did you talk about this already?
I didn't.
I don't want to repeat.
I told him that we.
We've done games with ghosts,but I didn't really go into it too
much, so.
Okay, so you would have an EMFreader and you would say, like, do
you want to hide or do youwant to seek?
And most of the time theywanted to hide.

(01:55:47):
And you would just kind ofwalk around and look in hiding spots
around this house.
And then the EMF reader wouldgo off.
Like, you would find wherethey were.
And then, like, you'd be like,do you want to hide again?
And we would ask, like, with adifferent type of tool.
And sometimes they said yes,sometimes they said no.
But, like, you would then golook for them again.
And it was reliable.
Where we'll often walk aroundwith the tools beforehand just to

(01:56:09):
see, like, where is it goingoff in the beginning?
Where the electricity.
Yes.
And stuff.
And this isn't places where itwas going off before, but very cute.
And at a park.
Yeah, we had.
We did it at a park.
Yeah.
Open air, Nothing.
Wow.
To go off.
But we were doing sts, whichyou got to experience as well, where
one had the headset on, andthey would respond through that.

(01:56:33):
And she had no way of hearingwhat we were asking.
And she was replying, yes, sir.
Yes, ma'.
Am.
You hide or we hide.
It was wild.
It was so much fun.
They also made fun of Amanda.
They said, does she even knowhow to seek?
Like.
Cause she was talking to somebody.
It was like, okay, okay.
I was looking for them, andsomeone asked at the park, because
we probably look like crazypeople asking what we were doing.

(01:56:54):
I was explaining it becausethey had also gone on a ghost tour
with us beforehand.
And I was explaining what wewere doing.
Okay.
And so the guy's like, oh, okay.
And then they were roastingme, like, on the other side of the
park because I stopped looking.
It's good to know that even inthe afterlife, you can get roasted,
like.
Or that that's on the table.
Like, that makes me very optimistic.

(01:57:17):
Like, okay, well, at least thesardonic spirit transcends so.
And so that's something, Ithink, on my end.
And if, you know, kind ofparceling out that story on the record,
because a lot of the.
What I'm writing about ortrying to write about, and this is
a weirdly personal story forme because I. I've had some, like,

(01:57:38):
kind of.
And I can't really.
All right, so how to do this?
The story's not about me, so Ihave to, like, figure out, like,
how do I take that out of it?
But, like, for me, like, justas a touch point, like, you know,
my mom passed away 12 yearsago, and one of the last things.
It was very sudden, and wewere moving, or they were moving
and they had a house in Ohio,and they thought.

(01:57:58):
She thought very much so, thatthe house was haunted by the spirit
that was, like, congenial.
And her friend, and she gotvery sick literally the day after
they moved.
And, you know, they moved toTennessee, and.
And she wound up in thehospital that night.
But had they delayed It a day,they would have still been in Ohio,
and she would have.
She would have died in the house.
She.
She passed away a month later,but there was no hospital.

(01:58:21):
Within an hour, she would have.
You know, and she came toafter her first surgery, and she
said the ghost.
She called Margaret, she said,Margaret didn't want me to leave
the house.
Yeah.
And that creeped me out, like,infinitely, because then I'm thinking,
like, this isn't a benevolent ghost.
Like, what do they want?
She, you know, is this.

(01:58:42):
Is this real?
You know, and that's a.
That's a really personal kindof angle for a ghost story, because
I had no real ghostsexperience issues until then.
Yeah.
And so, you know, Margaretwould be playful, but then, according
to my mom, Margaret wouldalso, like, throw shoes down the
stairs or do stuff that was alittle scary.
So when we were on the hunt,or I don't want to call it a hunt.

(01:59:05):
That seems like investigation.
Yeah, yeah.
Hunt seems like predator, you know?
Yeah, I think of that too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was really curious about,like, the bells and the.
The playing and the.
The banter.
Like, it.
It was very different thanwhat I was expecting because seems
like there was a childlikekind of communication or at least

(01:59:28):
one, you know, back and forththat was very.
You know, I teach middleschool, so, like, it was very middle
school coded.
I was like, this is.
That's like a sassy teen thinggoing on.
Yeah.
Oh, I think in.
In the big room that we were in.
The bottling room.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It seemed really nice.
It seemed playful.
And so during theinvestigation, you felt better then

(01:59:50):
as it went on.
In pockets.
In pockets.
I guess that's really what I'm curious.
Like, how.
All right, one.
Did you think the place was occupied?
I do, I do.
I feel like I was trying toexplain to Lindsay, too.
I feel like it's active, butalso kind of secretly active.
Like, it.
It wants you to know it'sthere, but it doesn't always want

(02:00:12):
to hang out.
Yeah, whatever.
And I think it's multiplebecause, like you said, there's different
personalities that tend tocome through in different parts.
Like, I feel like when we wereup in the office.
And we're gonna talk aboutthat in a bit, but when we were up
in the office was completelydifferent than the bottling room.
And, like, the vibes and the feelings.
Yeah, that.
That.
Yeah.
So there were pockets where Iwas like, this is fine.

(02:00:32):
And then there were pocketswhere I don't feel great.
It feels.
Maybe it was the air Feltheavy or cold or just felt maybe
it was my own imagination.
Learning about things likeshadow people did not help.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Because now I'm feeling likegreat shadow people.
And also, like, you know, itdepended on who I was with, I think,
too, because I have to be aconscientious objector.

(02:00:54):
Like, and.
And in the story, even now,there are things I can tell you that
happened that I think were true.
And then there are things I'mlike, well, I don't know.
Or maybe that's what they believed.
And it's really more about you guys.
And so it would depend on whoI was with.
Some people, I think, weremuch more bought in and wanted me
to be bought in, if that makes sense.
And.

(02:01:14):
And I know I can.
Like, it does present as aneasy mark.
Right.
You know, so I would be theguy at the hypnotist show.
He'd be like, oh, you know, let's.
Give it a go.
Yeah.
So, like, I have to be veryaware of that.
And so that's why, like, Ididn't do, like, they're holding
the rods.
I was like, I need to havesome separation.
Yeah.
Because I could be biased in away I don't maybe know.

(02:01:37):
Or in the moment realize.
So, like, that.
Or like in the upstairs when,you know, you had the headphones
on.
And I was like, maybe I shoulddo that.
I really wanted, like,experience that, like, I'm already
here.
Yeah.
And I was like, that's.
That's.
That actually is probably too.
I can't be in the story, you know.
Yeah.
But, yeah, there were pocketsthat felt different and different

(02:01:59):
reactions.
Was weird.
What was your favorite type ofinvestigation tool that you experienced
there?
I don't understand the waysome of them work, so I'm trying
to learn more.
That's fair.
I was kind of skeptical of the.
Of the apps, to be honest.
Oh, we were, too.
Yes.
Because it's, you know, I justdon't know what they have access

(02:02:21):
to and what they don't.
Exactly.
I was very curious about the bells.
Yeah.
The ghost bell.
Like, are they.
Are they triggered to put,like, an electromagnetic situ.
Are they just a bell?
No, it's not just a bell.
The one that he has.
Hold on.
I want to make sure I'mtalking about the correct model,
because there's a coupledifferent ones, but I believe it
uses EMF fluctuations to go off.

(02:02:43):
And then it does have a sensor.
Where I turned it down quite a.
Bit, because when I firstturned it on, I feel like it was
way too Sensitive.
So, like, if someone walked bywith the cell phone or something
like that, it was going off.
Okay.
So I turned it way down.
The sensitivity.
Yeah.
And then it seemed to bebetter and less frequent.
Yeah.
And so they're fun.
That's the way that when I wastelling you about St. Augustine,

(02:03:05):
they had taught their spiritsto play blackjack with it.
Coolest.
I was like, wow.
The dead are more than just dead.
And they're more than justthere to help us at Halloween to
scare ourselves.
Like, these are.
You know, I've never thoughtabout, like.
Oh, yeah, you'd be bored.
You'd want to play cards.
Yeah.
Hide and seek.

(02:03:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So fun.
Watch some shows, like, hang out.
Like, I don't.
What is it we do in life?
So.
Yeah.
Is it the EVPs that.
With the radio frequenciesthat bounce around.
EVP is when you have, like,the voice recorder, and then you
may hear a voice that youdon't hear when you're there, but
later when you're listening to it.
Oh, you may hear it.
Okay.

(02:03:45):
What was the one with theradios that was, like, dialing between
the.
Oh, okay.
That's a spirit box.
Okay.
Okay.
So it's.
It's basically like a broken radio.
It just scans very quickly,and then if there is, like, a fluctuation,
it'll stay on a word longerthan you'd expect because, you know,
it's like.
But then if you hear a wholesentence, you're like, how did that
sentence just, like.

(02:04:06):
Like, come through or make itself?
Sometimes you'll hear voicesthat sound.
Not quite like radio, that.
They sound like they're rightnext to you.
We had that happen.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like a lower register.
Something that didn't soundlike it was on that band.
Like, the.
Just the volume of the.
The radio.
Yeah.
And that was in the Anthonyroom, I think, more than anything,
though, like, just the.

(02:04:27):
The feeling.
So that was actually a thing.
Like, I had, like, a littlebit of, like, an audio processing
kind of thing.
Like, if the fan is on in thekitchen, like, while I'm cooking,
it really drives me nuts.
I hate the kitchen fan.
It makes me, like, really.
And the.
The radio tool with a.
It was like.
I was like, oh, my God, I'm.
They just put me in this,like, really anxious state.
Sonically, it's overwhelming.

(02:04:48):
Yeah, it's overwhelming.
That's why I like the SDS alittle bit more, because it's only
one person having to feel that.
And I would say it's even moreunnerving because my husband has
an auditory processing delay.
And he was doing it when wewere in St. Augustine, and he was
moving slower than otherpeople were.
And at one point, he, like,opened his eyes and was like, hey,

(02:05:09):
I'm sorry.
I'm.
I'm going kind of slow.
Like, it's hard for me to understand.
And then the next thing heheard was, idiot.
I was like, that's rude.
Yeah.
That was the aggressive night, though.
Yeah.
That was a.
That was a weird night.
Also, just as a note, Irealized I didn't know what EVP stood
for.
Like, I knew what it was, butI didn't realize what the acronym
is.
It's Electric Voice Phenomena.
So I was like, oh, I don'tknow what I thought it stood for.

(02:05:30):
I just.
I was like, evp.
I never questioned it.
I was like, it's ghost voice.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's.
It's.
And I've seen it in, like,movies on the ghost hunt.
Like, I was like, okay.
Yeah.
But it also makes me curious.
And I'm sure this is probablya book somewhere, but, like, the
tools.
The history of, like,paranormal communication.
You know, Mary Todd Lincolnwould have mediums over and, you

(02:05:51):
know, at the White House and,you know, the ways that we communicate
with the dead and, you know,like, because now we have a smartphone,
and it's like, hang on, I'vegot this ghost.
I got to take this thing real quick.
And I've.
I've been really tempted todownload that app.
And I've.
I've abstained so far.
Lindsay and I tore it apart at first.
Yeah.
And I would say, too, wheneveryou're using any type of app, test

(02:06:14):
it.
Right.
Like, I have a tool.
It's this freestanding toolthat, like, says words.
And I'm like, I need you totell me a state, and then I have
them tell me a number.
And until they tell me a stateand a number, everything else is
just noise.
I was like, if you want totalk, this is what I was like, I
need to make sure this is working.
So I'm going to just assumethat this is just something spitting
out words, and we're nothaving a conversation until this

(02:06:34):
happens.
And sometimes I have to turnthe settings down.
But also, I love when theybring up Mary Todd because I think
that it's such a good exampleof ghosts being a way that people
cope with grief.
Yeah.
And how when we think aboutthe paranormal, in essence, it always
kind of boils down to what's next.
And what's next is always tiedup with people who we've Lost and

(02:06:55):
who we've loved.
And it's just kind of like thefull perspective of it.
And I think that so manypeople, they come to the paranormal
from a place of, like, loveand grief before they get to it in
any spooky way.
That's why I'm like, we'respooky all year because it exists.
You know, everything existsall year.
It's.
It's so tragic.
And I think she's very maligned.
Like, you know, there's a.George Saunders has a.

(02:07:16):
It's kind of a weird novel,but Lincoln in the Bardo, which is
all about that.
And some of it's taken fromexcerpts of actual.
You know, the.
The real true story is, youknow, he.
Their favorite son, died 1862.
I believe it was right afterthey hosted their first big party.
And he had pneumonia, and Ithink they left the windows open,

(02:07:36):
so.
And it, you know, just kind of compounded.
And.
And he died.
You know, he.
He passed away, like, the nextday or two.
And that was their secondchild that they buried.
At that point, they would bury two.
One or two more.
Only one lived to adulthood.
And it.
It.
I think it just destroyed her.
Destroyed him, too.

(02:07:57):
He spent the night.
The night of the funeral.
She didn't go to the funeral.
And she got a lot of, like,tabloid flack for it.
And he went.
And then there's SecretService logs that record him leaving
the White House and walking tothe mausoleum and breaking in and
sleeping next to his body thatnight, which is like, as a father,

(02:08:19):
and, you know, you.
You hear that, and it's somacabre before you.
I think you become someonewhose life is really intertwined
in love, and, you know, theultimate fear is loss of that person
as a parent.
And then you hear it again asa parent, and you go like, yeah,
I get it.
I think the story thatbothered me at Four Peaks was about

(02:08:41):
the boy, the father who worked there.
Yeah.
And he was 11.
His father worked there.
They had just put electricgrids in Tempe.
And that was one of the firstplaces, because it was on the railroad
line, and he was climbing itlike a tree.
Yeah.
And he put his foot on thegrounding wire, and it killed him.

(02:09:02):
And I. I think if ghoststories are scary, I think it's because
we're scared of death.
I think we're scared of.
Especially in our culture, we don't.
We don't want to talk about it.
And to be in a place where youare perhaps directly encountering
it is very antithetical.
To the way I think a lot of usthink and operate.
So, yeah, I think that kind ofcuts to the quick of.

(02:09:24):
It is it's something we're allgoing to deal with or we've dealt
with, but it's also a way forus to try and, like, find some solace
with.
With all of it.
Like, I. I certainly want tobelieve in ghosts because.
Or not ghosts.
I want to believe in an afterlife.
Yeah.
In spirits.
I don't want to believe inghosts, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
The idea of being trapped in a place.

(02:09:46):
Yeah.
Against your will, I find horrifying.
I always talk about people whothey see, like a ghost of someone
working there.
They're still working afterthey've died.
And I'm like, no, terrible.
Absolutely terrible.
I hate it.
Out.
Go home.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, absolutely not.
I was like, every time we talkabout it, it upsets me because I'm
like, like, not.
Not at your job.
You don't want to be workingfor life.

(02:10:07):
But, like, the idea of that.
And so I feel like paranormaland entities and all these things
are so tied up with my, like,spiritual beliefs.
And I think that a lot ofpeople, they kind of tease them apart
in terms of, like, they'relike, oh, that's just spooky.
Those are just stories.
As opposed to kind of aligningwith how they see the.
The world and how things mayor may not work and what they think.
Yeah.
It's definitely tied to yourworldview, which is tied to, like,

(02:10:28):
your spirituality and.
And all the.
Yeah.
I definitely don't want to.
You know, I joke with my students.
Like, if.
If you don't do, like, I will haun.
Come back to this school and Iwill haunt you if you don't turn
this.
Like, if I pass away in thisclassroom, you're the one.
I'm.
I'm fall, like.
And I'm joking.
Like, no, I'm just kidding.
I never want to work again ifI'm dead.
I am.
I do not care.

(02:10:49):
Like, I don't.
I don't.
They're like, do you remember me?
I'm like, who are you again?
Like, when they come in thenext year, I'm like, it's your favorite
student.
I was like, yeah, how is John doing?
That was literally, like, anhour ago.
I had a former student come in.
They're like, like, I'm inhigh school.
And I was like, oh, yeah,what's your name?
But, yeah, I don't wanna.
I don't wanna be working whenI'm dead, I guess.
When we were, like, in this.

(02:11:10):
In.
I called it kind of a seancemoment because it felt we were around
this table upstairs.
Yeah.
There was, like, eerie lighting.
I was closest to the door,which I did not.
Like, there's a weird light.
And then there was, like, oneof the team members.
Yeah.
Earlier I saw this reallycreepy kind of like.
Like, demon thing.
It was like, unfortunately,you know, but, like, you know, I'm

(02:11:32):
like, oh, that's great.
That's a cool Twin Peaks kindof reference.
It was just on the stairsglaring at me.
Okay, no worries.
Yeah, that's fine.
I'll just sit here.
And then Carter was like, Igot touched.
So all that's going on, he jumped.
He did.
And I. I don't jumped high.
You can't really fake thatreaction, because he looked at me

(02:11:54):
like I was, like, fucking with him.
And I was like, that wasn't me.
And he's like, I just got touched.
But one of the things someoneasked was, do you want to leave?
Like, do you need help leaving?
And they said, essentially,no, I like it here.
And that bothered me.
Why does that bother you?

(02:12:15):
I want there to be more than,like, an old creamery full of beer
that I can't drink because Idon't have a.
You know, like, that, to me is like.
Oh, like, you're thinking,like, Ghostbusters vibes, like it's
gonna come out.
Or in Casper, when they'reeating, like, what are they eating?
Sundaes.
And it just kind of like, goesright through them after they chew.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That, to me, seems.

(02:12:36):
Because eating and drinking,because this is a food article, are
inherently things that theliving do.
Yeah.
It.
It.
And it makes us.
We feel alive.
It's one of those things thatmakes us feel alive.
Uh, it's very obviouslysomething has to die in order for
us to keep going, Whether it'sa plant or an animal.
It's very metaphorical.
But as a ghost, you're like,I'm stuck in a brewery and I can't

(02:12:59):
drink.
That sounds terrible.
Like, I'm.
Yeah, that's torture.
You know, like.
And, you know, granted, like,I mean.
And you're bored, so, like,well, it's probably not healthy.
But now you're dead, so youdon't care.
It's like, I want to, youknow, have a beer.
Can't do that.
So I just want there to be more.
And I think about the lovedones that have passed on, people
that, you know, friends and family.

(02:13:21):
And I did have a very eerie story.
I got an email.
A friend of mine passed.
We used to play music together.
We were in, like a band.
And he would.
One of the last people beforeI moved from Ohio that I actually
hung out with.
And he's a little bit olderthan me, so this is also a thing
when you're a male in your 40s.
And I think Bill Burr hasthis, like, bit about, like.
Like guys just start droppingdead, you know, like heart attack

(02:13:44):
or something.
It's like, we're not.
Yeah.
And I.
And that happened.
He was out kind of partying orsomething and he's, you know, you're
too old to do that.
And he did.
And they found him, like, inhis house that he had built by himself
three days later, you know,And a friend of mine was like, they
were.
They're really hurting becausehe was a very beloved person with

(02:14:05):
a really big personality andit could swing both ways.
He could be very loving andjust big teddy bear, but he could
get really sharp.
I think that was something hewrestled with.
But when he passed and like,there were constant power outages
in the transformer next to his house.
The transformer line would be.
It blew like twice and like,parts of the town were off the grid
and people were like, yeah,that, that might have been him.

(02:14:27):
You know, like, that.
That was.
That was.
The email I got was, we thinkthat that was his way of.
I just hope he's not in that house.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does.
It does.
Don't want that for my loved ones.
There's a lot of differenttheories that people believe or have
explored of some people, like,hanging out because they still want
to do something or see someoneor something to happen or they're

(02:14:49):
waiting for someone, whateverit may be.
There's so many differentones, but also for hotspots like
the brewery where tons ofpeople visit every day.
Right.
Like, tons of people visit andyou don't know who's hitchhiking
with them occasionally andthey're like, oh, hey, this is a
bar.
There's others here that Iwant to hang with for a bit.
And sometimes it's kind oflike a drop off.

(02:15:10):
Like, hey, there's a lot ofthings going on here.
This looks fun.
I'm going to hang here for a bit.
Good people watching.
Yeah.
Also, like, I'm a person who.
I love when anyone is excitedabout a thing and knows a lot about
a thing, I want everyone totell me about their special interest
so I could see myself in if,like, some part of me stayed behind.

(02:15:32):
Just kind of Bebopping around,watching people do something they
love for a moment and thenmoving to the next thing.
Because maybe what you consumeas a different type of entity is,
like, maybe what you consumeis experiences.
Or maybe you consume energy.
Right.
Which look like when theysuck, like, the power out of things.
I also think that, too.
Like, Amanda and I, we spokewith someone who, like, they were

(02:15:52):
telling us about, like, theirworldview, and we were like, like,
what?
And they were talking aboutthe idea that, like, you have a higher,
big consciousness, and littlebits of you basically come down.
And so it's not all of youthat is.
That's staying behind.
It's just a little bit of your energy.
It's just a little bit of you.
It's not the whole thing.
Yeah.
And I was like, hmm.
So, like, so interesting.
It makes it feel less, like,heartbreaking to think, like, oh,

(02:16:14):
my loved one is stuck here,versus they've left a little bit
behind because they loved this.
Place for as long as they want to.
Like, they could if they want.
Yeah.
They could just keep onkeeping on if they wanted to.
Mm.
And, like, one of the storieswas that old manager of the creamery,
and if he truly loved his workand wanted to make sure that the
place was not falling apart,that might make sense that a piece

(02:16:36):
of him's, like, still managing.
Yeah, I. I think that's.
He.
That was a guy who.
I mean, let's be honest.
How much work did he reallyget done?
Like, it sounds like he lovesto sit there, and he was the guy
who'd you, like, you'd beworking, and he's big.
Well, you know, that thingright there is, like.
Remember when they put that in here?
And, like.
Okay, thank you.

(02:16:58):
I'm so curious, like, becausea lot of these ghost stories are,
like, a hundred years old.
I don't know if you guys haveever, like, thought about what are,
like, Gen Z ghosts going to be like.
Are we hyped about it?
I'm hyped about it.
It's going to be real weird.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, I saw this spectralimage, and it was, like, in baggy
jeans, and it was staring downat its, like, iPhone 14.

(02:17:23):
And it was on an app thatdoesn't exist anymore, and then it
was just gone, you know?
Yeah.
Hilarious.
Yeah.
I like the idea of, like, youknow, when you think of, like, like,
haunting sounds and, like,ghost music, it's always, like, something
classical piano or.
But the fact that we're goingto hear ghost emo music one day or,
like, like a ChristinaAguilera Song like a genie in a bottle.

(02:17:44):
Like that's just gonna be likeplaying from the base basement.
Like that's the weird stuffthat other generations are going
to hear in 50 years.
They'll be like, yeah, I just.
My house sometimes like myphone goes off and I get a call and
it's no one versus I feel liketoday it's like a door slamming versus
like no, like my TV turned off.
Like I feel like it's like the.
Same kind of like slamming.

(02:18:04):
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
More electric.
Well, and you've made fun ofwhen you came here last.
You're like, well, the ghostsaren't going to be as well dressed.
They're going to be cowboys place.
Yeah, yeah.
Because I'm.
I'm in Baltimore where we'vegot like in terms of like real old,
very, very populated spacesand cities.
We've got cobblestones, we'vegot hundreds of year old buildings

(02:18:25):
here versus places where it'snot that it was uninhabited, it was
just that it wasn't buildingsthat are, that are like the same
structure as they are today.
And there's a lot of spaceswhere even if it's not the same space,
it's kind of similarly shapedwhere the person could still be in
the same kind of pattern ofspace and old timey clothes.
Yeah, you get Edgar Allan Poe.

(02:18:46):
Like we get like, I don'tknow, Barry Goldwater, like, you
know, like.
Yeah, well, I'm curious, youknow, and we've kind of touched on
this a little bit.
But that is the, the thingwith the west.
There's so much here beforecolonialism and spirits.
And there was someone who hada very eerie story and, and it was

(02:19:08):
weird because I was talking tosomeone the other day, had a very
similar story about being inkind of an old west town.
And you mentioned like, likepassersby or almost to borrow from
Arrested Development, like ahop on kind of spirit situation.
You're gonna get some hop ons.
Like a hitchhiker.
Yeah.
And Carter had one about going to.
I believe it was Yuma maybedon't quote me on the location.

(02:19:29):
Having a really negative.
Felt like a negative spirit,follow him home sort of thing.
And one of my colleagues saidsomething similar when we were talking
about ghost stuff.
I guess maybe my other weirdquestion or thing that I was mulling
over is spirits presenting as ghosts.
If those are like twodifferent things and like you think

(02:19:49):
you're talking to one thing orengaging with one thing and then
there's something elseactually there and that to Me is
terrifying.
It is, yes.
When it happens, it sucks.
I think that that is one ofthe most dangerous parts of an investigation
is that if you come in withpreconceived notions of who you're
talking to, your defenses aregoing to be different.

(02:20:09):
If you come in thinking you'retalking to a child and so your defenses
are down in that way, I justfeel like there's just a lot more
space for weird stuff to happen.
Yeah.
We went to a house in Villiscawhere a whole family was murdered.
And when we started off, therewas a lot of discussion that we were
talking to children.
And I never had that impression.

(02:20:30):
It was never the energy that I got.
And at one point, like we wereleaving and I got physically pushed,
like hard, like visibly, likepush pushed.
And I was like, that was not a child.
But like it was very clearthat something wanted us to think
it was.
And I'm just like, oh, yeah.
I think that happens all the time.
Because also if you wantattention and you want someone to

(02:20:53):
interact with you, sometimesyou're just going to be what they
want so that they talk to you.
Yeah.
Because if you're, I don'tknow, say you're like a middle aged
dude and they're like, hey,like how old are you?
And every time you say it,you're like, I don't know.
I'm 55.
I'm 38.
So middle age gets further andfurther away now, by the way, that's
just the way it is.
So I'm like, no, like those,like the age is not 110, but we're

(02:21:15):
gonna go 55.
I like to tell my husband it'sexactly 42 because he just turned
42.
So I tell him it's 42.
Exactly.
But hold up, time out.
So ghosts here.
I'm, I'm processing here.
Okay.
So much.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's a lot to take itwelcome male ghosts.
Especially if, if we're stillin that kind of subdivision, they're

(02:21:36):
lying about their age to seemyounger, to talk to people.
Creepy, right?
Yeah, they're catfish.
They're like the cat to catcha predator.
Like, like that show Chris isgoing to be a ghost.
He's going to pop out andcatch other ghosts lying about their
age.
That's how hill haun.
Not like a chat room.
It's a spirit box.
This is what you again?

(02:21:58):
This is like my hope that itgets better on the other side.
And you're just like, no,we're still doing the same shitty
things.
Parts of them Might be part ofthe time.
Part of the time.
I don't know.
So I. I fully.
I don't know.
Maybe this is my Southern.
Like, I don't know if you can.
The idea of subdividing a soulor a person is crazy to me.
And I'm still like dealingwith like.

(02:22:19):
Well, you know, they're.
Yeah, their little angrypart's gonna be in the angry building
over here.
And you know, the part thatloves beers?
Going to the.
I was like, I don't.
I don't know.
What do you mean, the partthat likes beer?
I mean, I think that, like,it's like a think.
My.
My brain's like one bigconsciousness that's kind of sometimes
filled with other ones.
Because I believe in reincarnation.
Yeah.
So I'm like, okay, but like, Ibelieve in reincarnation with my

(02:22:40):
whole being, but I also haveso many experiences from after my
grandmother passed away.
That was her, without a doubt.
I'm talking.
We were like, nana, where isthe documents for this particular
thing?
And then you'd walk out of theroom, you'd hear something fall on
the floor, and you'd go backand it was like a packet of documents
you were looking for.
Right.
Like, like so clear.
And it was like nobody elseknew where those were unless.

(02:23:01):
I don't know, the ghosts therewere previously were very involved
with paperwork and where itwas stored.
Clerical ghost experienceslike that.
Yeah, clerical ghost alsosounds terrible.
Just another type of thingthat I don't want to be doing after
I'm dead, but I think that.
I don't know, a part of youthat stays behind, but a part of
you that move on.
And I don't know.
I don't know if we.
If we're one big thing or wecan separate a little or this version

(02:23:24):
of myself is connected to likea bigger version of myself.
Yeah.
We have a.
We have a neighbor, likepretty much my kids surrogate great
grandmother.
She's 88, Ms. Margaret.
She's like the.
The most amazing.
She was a. I mean, she's a transcendentalist.
She practices transcendental meditation.
Hell yeah.
And you know, again, I'm justlike, hey, how's it going?

(02:23:46):
Do you need help with your gar.
And she, she'll just tell melike, you know, I'll ask questions
and getting her perspective onwhat comes after in the transcendental
plane and astral projectionand your astral body and.
Yeah.
Things I have no real concept of.
And then trying to square themwith like some things that Maybe
I have encountered orexperienced or have heard of other

(02:24:10):
people.
You know, it is hard to.
I guess that is why it'scalled a great mystery.
Right.
But it's hard to parcel out.
And I think at the end of it,because one of the questions was
like, what was my takeaway?
Yeah, on all of it.
I joked with Carter the nexttime I saw him, you know, because
I did the whole thing, like,and I even psy.
I freaked myself out.
I was like, maybe I wasn'tclear enough in my.

(02:24:30):
My communication.
Please don't follow me home.
Like, okay.
And I was like, okay, look,I'm leaving now.
I'm gonna get in this van, I'mgonna drive and go home to my family.
You gotta stay here.
Like, we're.
We're good.
You keep doing.
You.
I'm gonna go on.
I gotta get some sleep.
And then I got to my house andit's like a 30 minute drive and come

(02:24:51):
in and the house is completely dark.
And I was like, man, I'mreally hungry.
I would love a snack.
And then I was like, no shadow people.
Nope.
Not.
Not even.
Just gonna go straight up andkeep my head down.
Just down.
And I'm just gonna go up.
And I just.
I think I slept and like, whatI was wearing.
I'm gonna be up in like three hours.
There' change.

(02:25:12):
I am just gonna.
It's fine.
And so I was a little freakedout, but then I was like, oh, well,
maybe it's not so bad if thesefolks have done a lot more of these
than I have.
And I think it might take away.
Was that you guys have morepositive interactions than negative.
Yeah.
Maybe it's just like people.
Yeah.

(02:25:32):
You know, they're.
They're people gonna have somegood engagements and bad ones and
you know.
Yeah.
And I think I shared with youmy thoughts on when they were saying
that there might have been anegative spirit there.
And I'm like, he's not negative.
We're talking about Anthony.
He's particular.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So I was confused because tome, Anthony.

(02:25:52):
Yeah.
There's like this kind of.
At least in the engagementwith the radio frequencies and is
it dowel sing rods?
Dowsing rods.
Yeah.
Those aren't my favorite, butsome people love them.
Yeah.
They were like getting to adate of like when he was alive and
he named the president andbecause I could factor.

(02:26:15):
Because he was like, I.
They went 1930s and like 1933and they were like, well, who was
president?
Or like, did you like the president?
He said Roosevelt.
I was like, yeah, that.
That's actually Roosevelt'sfirst year in office, or I think
first term.
Yeah.
But, you know, it wasimmediately like, yeah, that tracks.
And I was like, okay.
He's just like a.
If he's.
If he's a thing, he's a crashyold dude.

(02:26:36):
I like cratchy old dudes.
Like, I. I would have a beerwith him, you know, like over a beer
or two.
I think he would be cool.
He'd be fine.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It would depend on the beer,which is.
I think one of the questions Ihad for everyone is like, what beer
would Anthony be?
I would have to say, like a porter.
Something dark.
And yeah.

(02:26:56):
I was like, he likes some ofthe hard stuff.
Yeah, he definitely would go.
And Victor would just be like,you know, he's a working class dude.
Yeah, I was like, that dude,you know, loggers all day and, you
know, some good stories.
But I was under the impressionthere was something else.
Like talking to some folks,especially the creepy entity on the

(02:27:16):
stairs.
Twin Peaks esque demon momentwhere that was what was described.
And I was like, that's not great.
Yeah.
So do you think that there'ssomething else?
Because that was also.
The ghost hunters thing waslike, there's something older here
and malevolent.
Yeah.
And that.
You're talking about ZachBagans, right?

(02:27:38):
I think so.
That episode.
Yeah.
So we are not fans of him.
Yeah.
Any capacity.
That's a kind way to say it.
That's the kindest thing you can.
Was he the.
Was he truly the malevolentspirit in the room?
I mean, I think he always is.
If he came into my space, Iwould be pretty upset.
So.
No, I don't think so.
It could have been somethingmessing with us too, because who

(02:28:00):
you're referencing that sawsomething kind of crawling was Ashley.
And that was one of.
If I. Hopefully I'm correct,that's one of the first spooky interactions
she's actually had becauseshe's fairly new into investigating.
And so she was surprised atherself that she was just like, oh,
there's something there.
And she didn't panic or anything.
But I wonder if it was justsomething kind of messing with us

(02:28:20):
knowing that perhaps she's newand didn't know much about investigating.
Like, she knows a lot, buthasn't done it a lot.
And maybe it was that.
But I don't like when we gotup there the first time.
I don't remember if you werewith us when we first walked up there,
when Carter was kind ofshowing us around that area.
No, I wasn't.
It seemed heavier, and itseemed like, yikes.

(02:28:42):
And then we're like, we wantto come up here again later.
Let's go set up more of our stuff.
And then when we returned, itwas a lot lighter.
And that's when I was upthere, and it was sold a bit.
Like, this is.
I mean, I feel like it wasmessing with Carter, like, for fun.
He told me at the dinner, hecame up to the table.
This was three days later, andhe was like, so, you know, because

(02:29:04):
he'll just, like, the way heconverses is he just kind of like,
drops you into a story.
Love it.
And you're like, kind of likefinding the context as you go.
And I do love that about him,but he's like.
So I was cleaning the backrooms in the bathroom because we're
cleaning at the office, and hewas listening to a podcast and.
Or music, and it cut out andsomeone just went, hello.

(02:29:27):
And he's like, yeah.
So that happened like, an hourbefore you got here.
I was like, oh, that's.
That's just kind of cool.
Freaky.
And he was like, it's.
He's like, it's definitelyvery active right now.
And his take is interestingbecause he's, you know, he's a marketing
guy, he's a writer, but he'stheir kind of de facto caretaker.
Yeah.
Did you get that impression?
Like, I feel like he's.

(02:29:48):
I don't think he thinks thisis bunk.
I like the relationship he haswith his spirits there, though.
They're like his co workers,like, his friends, the way that he
talks about them.
And I love that.
Yeah.
And I think they kind of feelagain, like that was the interaction.
I was like, this guy again.
Ah, yeah.
Well.
And when we were upstairs andthey touched him and like.

(02:30:09):
Like, he jumped up and hiseyes got really big, and I'm like,
I couldn't fake it that well.
Like, I couldn't act that well.
Maybe he is a good actor, but,like, I bought it.
No, I. I don't.
I don't think he's that goodof a actor.
I think he's like, oh, great.
Because he did it to me.
He's like, I felt.
And he felt like, you know,when you're messing with somebody
and you do the.

(02:30:29):
Yeah, it's a.
It's a very typically teenageboy thing to do.
Like, you know, when you'rewalking past someone or something.
Yeah.
This was another thing he saidat the kind of debriefing with Him.
I was like, how do you thinkit went?
Because he's had a lot ofthese come in.
He said, actually it wasreally kind of a master class and,
like, being mindful.
Like, he said the place getsless active when you've got these

(02:30:49):
really aggressive, like,personalities that are really, you
know, forward, mostly male.
And he said, like, if you'reable to just be quiet and be cool,
they're gonna, like, feel more comfortable.
So, yeah, I thought that was acompliment to what you guys were
doing was.
That's good.
The space kind of seemed toopen up because I thought it would.

(02:31:10):
It was more active than I. Ithought it was going to be.
That's good.
Yeah.
I mean, we won't work with,like, I. I occasionally will go on
investigations with Rogue.
So that's the investigation group.
And I won't work with someonethat is not kind to everyone.
And so whether you're spiritor not, like, they deserve respect

(02:31:31):
just as much as any us do.
And so that's also why we tryto go, like, do you have any questions
for us?
Especially if it's notterrifying or being awful, we'll
go, do you have any questionsfor us?
Like, do you want to knowabout anything?
We were asking, like, do youlike people watching when all the
people come to eat here anddrink here?
Is it fun?
So interesting.
Yeah, on that end, I guess itwould be nice, you know, would make

(02:31:53):
you think of other things.
Like, you know, okay, that's.
I remember.
You know, I don't.
I don't know.
It seems like they canunderstand at least some of where
we're coming from or what webring to the table like they said
they could.
Maybe they were messing withyour colleague who was new.
How would they know thatthey're new?
How would they know to.
What do they know of what webring to a space?
And then also, like, what dothey retain is, I think, an interesting

(02:32:16):
question.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We also describe things in theway that we understand them with
our current framework.
Right.
So, like, for as far back as.
As humans have existed, we fitthings into the.
What we already know.
Right.
So, like, say I said to you,two pieces, a top and a bottom, piece
of bread with ground meat inside.

(02:32:37):
I feel like most people wouldsay a burger.
Yeah, but that could be apatty melt.
That could be something else.
Right.
But we all have our, like,first thing that we think of.
And then sometimes we usethose words to describe it when,
like, maybe it's just thatkind of shape.
Right.
Like, I don't know, though.
Unless she was like, no, like,for sure, a demon.
But, like, I also.
If I saw, like, a black shadowcreature with horns or something,

(02:32:58):
I'd be like, demon.
Yeah.
You know, like, that is whereI would go.
But I'm like, I don't actuallyknow what a demon is or is not.
Yeah.
And we have, like, a Christian.
A Christian.
Christian, like, worldviewkind of in America when it comes
to, like, spiritual stuff like that.
And a lot of other cultures,like, they think of demons as completely
different types of entities.
So it's kind of like we usethe framework.
We have to describe it.

(02:33:18):
It.
When, like, sometimes thewords do or don't make sense, but
it's like.
I don't know.
Yeah, I. I have two categories.
Hit it with a broom or don'thit it with a broom.
Like, it's a very big umbrella.
That would be a broom situation.
Like, you're getting hit witha broom.
That would be a run situation,I think.
Yeah, that would be a. I'm done.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
No, I wouldn't.

(02:33:39):
I'm a flight guy.
I'm freeze guy.
They were.
I was also, like.
They were like, oh, can youturn out the light?
Light.
So I've got the story of thedemon in my head, and everybody's
going down the stairs becauseit's the end of the night.
And they're like, oh, Zach,you just get the light.
And I was like, what?
And they're like, yeah.
No.
And they're like, yeah, youjust turn the light up.
So turn the light off for the room.
That then cuts the lights offthe stairs, and I'm going down that.
I'm the last one down.

(02:33:59):
And I'm like, this is cool andgreat and fine.
It's fine.
No, no, it's totally fine.
I would.
What do you.
Somebody has to do it.
But.
But, yeah, I don't know.
It was.
It was a really.
Again, I still don't knowexactly what I believe.
So you were talking about your framework.
And.

(02:34:19):
And I grew up in the south,and so there's this other thing of,
like, you know, ghosts arevery tied to, like, we call it.
And this is.
Again, I'll use that.
Demon worship.
Right.
So that's demon worship.
There are things you don'tmess with in the.
In the south, like Ouija boards.
You never had one growing up.
Don't mess with that.
Like.
Yeah, fair.
Yeah.
They're all those kind of things.
And so, like, seeing wherethose lines, the Venn diagram kind

(02:34:41):
of intersect of spirits andghosts in the south, you know, that's
still, like.
That's taboo stuff.
So you have to, in all thesuperstitions, tread carefully.
But then you.
You look at, like.
Like, in, like, New Orleans.
I don't know if there's, like,some underlying truth to that thing.
There's just some things youdon't want to invite into your spiritual

(02:35:02):
realm.
And there are other thingsthat you're like, I'm okay with you.
Yeah.
No, I.
That.
That's just like.
It is.
I think, like, when you werelike, oh, don't follow me home and
set boundaries and all that.
It's the same that you do witha person, in a sense.
Right.
You're like, here's myboundaries of my interaction with
you.
This is okay.
This is not.
And you have to respect it.
Well, my wife is smarter thanme, and she.

(02:35:24):
On the back end of it, becauseI got home, I told her, like, it
did the whole thing, and shewas like.
Like, don't carry anything in there.
Carry a, like, bottle of waterthat you can leave.
Yeah.
And keep it light.
And then I was like, how doyou know that?
And she's like, why do youthink we don't have a mat out front
that says you're welcome orwelcome in or like, she's like, we're
not inviting these things inour house.
And I was like, how do you.
You didn't tell me this beforeI left.

(02:35:44):
She's like, you figure it out.
She's like, it's witchy stuff.
You don't need to know.
You're.
You know, you don't need toknow everything.
And I was like, that's fair.
So you're like, I have so manyprotection things even going.
I don't even know about it.
It.
Right.
Yeah.
I did have one more question, too.
Sure.
If you could go back and talkto yourself before you start.
Like, before you walked in, isthere anything you would tell yourself?

(02:36:05):
Especially since it was, like,your first time doing this?
Right.
Or what?
It wasn't your first investigation.
Right.
So I went on a ghost tour.
Actually, my wife and I have areally funny story.
It was our, like, maybe thirddate, and I was pretending like I
was a real baller, and I.
Like, we were in Atlanta, andI was like, hey, do you want to go
to Savannah for the weekend?
And she's like, I. I can't.
I was like, I got you.
Don't worry about it.
All expenses paid.

(02:36:26):
Da, da, da.
And we went on, and she'slike, oh, this guy must be.
I was like, I'm a middleSchool teacher.
You just got catfished big time.
But in all of that wooing, wewent on a.
Like, a ghost hunt.
And it was terrible.
It was.
You know, it was in Savannah,which is spooky.

(02:36:47):
And the tour guide was like.
We had, like, beers.
You know, you can walk.
Walk around.
She's like, first of all,she's like, I'm gonna.
Recovering alcoholic.
There's no drinking on this tour.
And she's like, chain smoking.
And I was like, what?
And I was like, okay, cool.
Respect.
And we got to a cemetery, andshe had, like, a iPad.
She's like, if you look righthere, you can see the ghost.

(02:37:08):
It just jumps up.
And she's like, oh, we want it.
And just jumps up.
I was like, we're watching.
You know, you could do a story.
That'd be cool.
And so it got.
Yeah.
To make matters worse, of all the.
I think you got scammed.
We did.
Was that a ghost tour?
It was.
It was so w. It was, like,packed out.
And to make it even worse,like, her ex boyfriend in Atlanta,

(02:37:31):
like, a dude she dated like, ayear prior, and his new girlfriend
were on the same, like, justwalked up out of nowhere and on the
tour.
And so I was on this tour.
Yeah.
And we were.
Oh, my God, this is.
And so we.
About 45 minutes in, she waslike, let's run away.
And I was like, what are youtalking about?

(02:37:51):
And she's like, let's.
Let's make a break for it.
I was like, what?
It was like we were skippingschool, and we.
She just, like.
We just took off running, andwe're just, like, laughing like we'd
skipped a ghost.
Like, it was so stupid, but itwas really funny and enjoyed.
That's a good core memory.
Oh, for sure.
The moment I fell in love withher, I was like, this is the most
fun I'm ever gonna have.
Have with any person in the world.

(02:38:13):
Like, I was like, this is ridiculous.
That's so sweet.
But that was our only ghostexperience tour, so.
Yeah, this is my first.
I.
If I had to, like, think, whatwould I do differently?
To be honest, I. I wish thatshe had been there because she's
all.
She's always like, my.
The person I bounce storiesoff of.
She's the kind of, like, much,much better half.

(02:38:35):
But I struggle sometimes withprocessing, like, the.
What was that?
And, you know, having herthere, I think would have helped
to alleviate some of that, butalso just kind of give another take
on it, because I can.
I want to believe.
And I think she is More discerning.
If not, she's not skepticalbecause she believes in a lot of

(02:38:55):
spiritual stuff.
But I think she's a lot more,you know, she just has a better awareness
of things than I do.
I just get very, like, focusedand dialed in.
And so I'll miss the forestfor the trees sometimes.
And I think, yeah, there was acool experience that I wish I could
have shared with her, youknow, and logistically, with three
kids, you can't.

(02:39:15):
But, yeah, that's my only regret.
Like, I. I had a wonderful time.
You guys were very, veryaccommodating and patient with a.
A novice person.
You were great.
You were great.
And I love.
At the beginning, you.
You said it.
And I didn't say it at thetime, but you mentioned that it was
like.
Like alien technology as wewere setting up.
And later when he walked inthe room, into the bottling room,

(02:39:36):
after a while, it saidsomething about that on one of the
apps, and I said, alien.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's.
It's talking about what hesaid earlier, because we were talking
about the devices, and itliterally, like, spit that out right
when he walked in.
And then it told Carter, niceshoes or nice hat.
Nice shoes, something like that.
Interesting.

(02:39:56):
But it was the moment theywalked in.
Yeah.
Carter had another moment,too, where it said something really
weird.
Oh, it was his middle name orhis nickname, Mo.
His nicknamed Mo, I believe.
Yeah.
And no one in the room knew,and they were like, is he.
Is there a Mo here?
And he's like, yeah, that wasmy childhood nickname.
All my family calls me Mo.
So I was like, that's really weird.

(02:40:17):
That's very specific.
Very specific.
There was a couple of momentswhere I was like, even if the algorithm
is just kind of.
Of circling and trying tocatch something, there's no way it
probably would pick up on that.
But.
And that.
That's how Lindsay and I, whenwe first started using the apps,
we were super skeptical.
We researched how they worked,like, which ones seem to be better

(02:40:40):
than another?
And the technology that itused, I tested it with EMF readers
to see if it gave me the sameor similar reading.
Like, would it spike at thesame time as an actual EMF reader?
And it did.
But what really solidified itfor us is when it started telling
us personal things where we'relike, yeah, that string of words.
None of us would know it.

(02:41:00):
Nor, when I use my app, Ialways turn it on airplane mode,
and I make sure that there'sno permissions, no sound permissions,
nothing.
And the things that it spitout were, like, why?
How?
Yeah, yeah.
It would be really interestingto try and have that technology on
a device that is completelyunconnected to, like, your data.

(02:41:23):
There is.
Is there?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and also, like, I have my.
My iPad that I use now, but Ialso have my old iPad that literally
is.
Is like, it's just a notes appwhere I'm scribbling stuff down.
There's nothing to pull from.
No.
There's no data.
And when I'm out in the world,unless I connect it to something,
it can't connect to anything.

(02:41:44):
Like, I don't have it on,like, cellular data or anything like
that.
That.
And that's what I'll typicallyuse for, like, that type of app for
it.
Because I have a ghost at my house.
My husband and I have tried totalk to it before, and I'm like,
okay, it's not connected.
Like, nothing.
And things will pop up in waysthat you wouldn't expect that feel
intelligent.
Because it's.
One will always do, like, the.
We say for science in thebeginning of it.

(02:42:07):
I don't know if he was in.
There when I did it.
I was like, for science.
For science.
Everyone staring at me.
Because the idea is, is thatit's not like we're just like.
Like a thing happened.
Therefore, it means this.
Right?
We want it to be testable,repeatable, where we can actually
validate the data to a certainamount, because we also want to believe,
but we've, like, trust but verify.
Right.
We want to make sure that it'snot just, like, baloney.

(02:42:29):
And I think that it'sinteresting that you.
You can do that if you, like,you know, you use an older device
where there's literallynothing on it.
It's just like that.
That's interesting.
Carter's and my app weresaying very similar things one after
another, and our data wouldn'tbe similar.
That's really.
Yeah, that's a.
That's.
That's an interesting point.
There were moments of almost.
Almost identical, like, overlap.

(02:42:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause he had my phone when Ihad the headphones on for a bit,
too.
Yeah.
That was really creepy, by theway, that You.
You really took one for the team.
Because I was like, no, that's.
It's unsettling.
I don't like that I feltsomething walk by, because I think
I even opened my eyes atfirst, and I was like, guys, did
one of you just walk by something?

(02:43:12):
Just did.
At one point, somebody was, Ithink, moving their foot, and it
was, like, kind of moving the table.
And you're like, yeah, stop that.
But it reminded me of, like,the conjuring kind of movies and
stuff.
So.
Yeah.
I have one last question.
Yeah.
I. I love, obviously, storytelling.
I have, I think, my own preferences.
But, like, is there a film ortelevision show you feel gets.
Gets it right when we'retalking about paranormal experiences,

(02:43:35):
Is ghosty stuff?
Like, is there one that getsclosest to what you've experienced?
Or, like, you're like.
That part is pretty accurate.
Oh, that's a good question.
I'm trying to think.
A lot of the time it's sosensationalized that you're like
that.
It's not like that at all.
But then at.
At certain points, like when we.
When she mentioned we went toVillisca, that was a shit show.

(02:43:57):
Like, that was.
Yeah, that was something.
And she got pushed.
It threw her into one of us.
Us.
When you're walking forward,like, especially us walking forward,
and something throws youbehind into another person.
Like, there's no way she could have.
And I wouldn't have because,like, there's stuff that was breakable
in there, including other people.

(02:44:18):
So I feel like a lot of ghostmovies have little bits and pieces.
And some of the ghost shows, Imean, I. I can't stand the ghost
adventures one.
Like, I just.
No, that's it.
No, the only one I could thinkof that's kind of semi respectful
that isn't over, like, sensationalized.
And I've only watched ahandful of episodes, but the one
with Jack Osborne doesn't seemto be that terrible.

(02:44:39):
Oh, I didn't even know he had one.
I didn't either until recentlywhen we were doing a hotel episode
about Hotel Monte Vista, and Istumbled across the episode as I
was doing research.
So I watched it.
I'm like, oh, okay.
Like, they do the history.
They do this.
Of course, it's for tv.
So they probably do have toadd some, you know, into it.
Yeah.
You gotta spice it up.
You got to get the network.

(02:45:01):
Well, it also, like, they need advertisers.
Right.
So it's like if you have a.
Ghost show and there's noevidence that you could give.
Yeah.
And that's all you do.
And the whole point of it isto show that there's activity.
Yeah.
You're inherently biased.
Like, Amanda and I go.
And we're like, we're gonnahave an experience.
Let's find out.
If we have nothing, then wehave nothing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We'll just do a historyepisode at that point.

(02:45:22):
If we don't get anything yeah.
And they're not.
Not trained to.
Yeah.
They're not entertainers.
We're not going to a zoo.
Yeah.
Yeah, that is.
That's the ultimate.
Yeah, it's.
It's definitely.
And I have problems with thezoos too, even though I take my kids
and I'm kind of.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Feels very.
I was thinking, have you seenthe Haunting of Hill House on Netflix?

(02:45:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I have two seasons now.
Right.
Yeah.
I think that the first season where.
Because it ends with, like,the ghost choosing to stay in the
house that caused them so muchgrief because that's where their
family is.
And I thought that was like.
Yeah.
You know, it's such a scary show.
I was like, this is freakingme out on every level.
It's like I'm jump scares.
So scary.
And there's always somethingwatching you.
I was like, okay.

(02:46:04):
But I revisited that with the.
You know, after this wholething, I was like, oh, yeah.
It's the place where theirfamily is.
That's where they're alltogether and, you know, family does.
We haunt each other.
But I was like, that.
That kind of rings true, like,a little bit.
I was like, that's.
That's cool.
But yeah, all the sensationalstuff I'm after visiting with you

(02:46:27):
guys, I was like, this doesn't.
This isn't the way it goesdown sometimes.
You're just sitting there awkwardly.
Yeah.
Staring at each other like, mylegs are sore.
No one captures that part.
No.
Oh, I've been sitting on thefloor for, like, six hours.
That's.
That's the majority of ghostinvestigations is.
Yeah.
Sitting there.
I was really sore.
Yeah, I was.
I was wearing, like, not theright shoes for the occasion.

(02:46:48):
And I think I was standing forthe majority of the night.
Somebody was like, oh, you're finally.
He's finally sitting.
I was like, is there like abed on, like, how long I'm gonna
stand?
Just didn't wanna sit on aspooky floor.
I wanted, like, mobility if Ihad to move saddle.
Yeah.
Well, thank you for your time.
It was fun talking andchatting about it.

(02:47:11):
Thank you.
No, thank you.
Thanks for listening.
And as always, a special thankyou to our patrons who support us
via Patreon.
Please see the link in ourshow notes to learn more about how
you.
Yes, you can begin to hauntthe dump guard vortexes or even become
a scorching sasquatch.
Ooh.
Also in our show notes, youcan find the link to our website,

(02:47:33):
more information on oursources, our social media handles,
and our merch store.
We'd love for you to keepcreeping with us.
So if you like this episode,please subscribe, rate, review, and
share the show with yourfellow creepy and or ghosts.
I beg of you.
Amanda stopped recordingbecause she thought I was gonna forget

(02:47:55):
about my.
My electricity song.
Okay, so Baltimore Gas andElectric BGE had commercials that
would play on, like, basictelevision stations when I was a
kid.
Okay.
And it is.
Are you ready?
Ready.
And I can see it in my head.
So wires down.
Red alert.
Don't go near, you'll get hurt.

(02:48:15):
Get some help.
Better rush.
And do not, do not, do not touch.
You think I'm done?
I'm not.
BG knows what is best.
Call on us.
It's our request.
Get some help.
Better rush, but do not, donot, do not touch.
Oh, my God.
Jazz hands.
And if you're in Maryland andwe're a child in Maryland and you

(02:48:39):
don't know that song, I willbe shocked.
Do you see this cat behind me?
Just prayer.
Oh, there he is.
Yeah, we don't have anythinglike that.
They don't sing, like, livewire songs to you guys in the television
when you were a kid?
They don't.
They don't.
I feel like the only, like,informational commercials were like,
the ones at school for, like, dare.

(02:49:00):
Oh, okay.
And they didn't have little jingles.
It was just like, don't dodrugs or you'll die.
You know?
Yeah.
I mean, like, this is like.
I don't know if I'll everforget that.
Like, I'll be like, hey,that's like 90,000 years old.
I'd be like, don't touch thosewires, because wires down, red alert.

(02:49:21):
I don't know why I sound likethat when I'm old, but, like, that's
what I'm going to sound like.
And you're welcome, Maryland people.
Yeah, that's great.
That's great.
Fantastic.

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