Halloween True Crime 3: The Murder of John Altinger by Mark Twitchell

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Hi, welcome to True Creeps,where the stories are true and the
creeps are real.
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And we want you to join uswhile we creep.
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(00:24):
Listener discretion is advised.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to our third Halloweentrue crime episode.
Today we're going to betalking about the murder of John
Altinger and the attack onGilles DRO in Canada.
Both of these crimes werecommitted by Mark Twitchell, who
was ultimately arrested onHalloween of 2008.

(00:45):
Twichell is thought to havebeen inspired by the book slash TV
show Dexter.
So he was dubbed the Dexter Killer.
Lindsay?
Yes.
I've actually seen this show,a show.
That Amanda has watched.
How exciting.
It's pre child came out for a child.
So heard.
Yeah, yeah.
So if you haven't watchedDexter or read the books, that's
okay.

(01:05):
We're going to talk a littlebit about what the book and or show
is about.
And this comes directly froman agreed statement of facts in Twitchell's
trial.
So I'm going to read directlyfrom that and it's going to give
you just a little.
A little sniff of what theshow is.
So Dexter, as referred to inthis trial, is a popular book and
television series in which themain character, named Dexter Morgan,

(01:27):
works as a blood spatteranalyst with the Miami Metro Police
Department.
Dexter's father recognized hisson to be a sociopath at a young
age.
Dexter is also a serial killerwho was trained by his father, who
believed Dexter's homicidalnature could not be eliminated.
To choose his victims on moral grounds.
The attempted moral basis forthe killing is called the code.
Another part of the code isthat Dexter's father urged the importance

(01:49):
of appearing normal to theoutside world.
Simple human acts, likesmiling for pictures or acting sad
during funerals do not comenatural to Dexter.
Dexter Morgan uses distantlocations for his killings to take
place and goes to greatlengths to dispose of all evidence
of his crimes.
The rooms he uses are coveredin plastic.
He frequently dismembers thebodies of the deceased and usually
disposes of the remains bythrowing them overboard from his

(02:11):
boat into the bay.
Dexter's dark passenger ismore heavily referred to in the books
and is both his alter ego andand his desire to kill.
For example, he will refer tohimself as we when he is killing
his victims in the book.
In the TV show, it is Usedjust to personify his need to kill
and isn't treated as a fullyformed alter ego.
Now, as I was reading thatearlier, we talked about choosing

(02:33):
his victims on moral grounds.
What is not specified here isthat Dexter killed bad people.
So we're talking rapists,murderers, pedophiles who were acting
on their desires.
Right.
He would stalk them and makesure that they were actually guilty
before he would kill them.
So he was a murderer whokilled bad guys.
Right, right.

(02:54):
And the show does a good jobof, you know, it's bad, but you're
also not seeing him as a villain.
Yeah, he's an anti hero kindof deal.
They really paint the picture.
Yeah, yeah.
They do a good job of it.
I think so.
But it is a very good show.
But if you haven't seen theshow, you'll still understand what
we're talking about todaybased off of what Lindsay just explained.
Yeah.
And we'll note when things arekind of overlapping a bit.

(03:14):
If you haven't watched it,though, go watch it.
Great show.
Lindsay said it at thebeginning of the episode, but the
victim's name was JohnAltlinger, and He was born April
28th of 1970, and he wasreally into new technology.
He got his first computer whenhe was just 12 years old.
And he also had a big love for motorcycles.
When he first went missing,one of the first things his friends

(03:36):
thought was suspicious wasthat his motorcycle was left uncovered
in the parking garage.
And he took very good care of it.
So that was bizarre.
So typically because of that,he would never leave his bike uncovered,
especially if he was goingaway for an extended period of time.
He was also an avidpaintballer and had his own equipment.
Those close to him describedhim as being very giving, affectionate,

(03:58):
and quiet.
One of John's friends was Deb Tycrobe.
They met on a dating website,but realized that they were more
friends than anything romantic.
When talking about him, Debsaid, quote, he loved to get people
to open their minds and thinkoutside the box.
He was a positive, upbeatperson who tried to get people to
turn their negative thoughtsinto positive thoughts.

(04:19):
He sounds like a great guy.
He really does.
John called Deb sunshine andtypically wrote jokes or smiley faces
when he would email her.
So keep that in mind.
As John got closer to 40, hewas more serious about looking for
a partner.
He asked Deb if they could bemore, but she said that they should
just remain friends.
And then they stopped talking.
He reached out to her in thesummer of 2008 to discuss it again,

(04:42):
but she didn't respond.
John had plans with one of hisfriends and his name was dale Smith.
On October 12th of 2008, hewas actually going to give him a
motorcycle lesson.
When he talked with Dale, hehad mentioned that he had a date
scheduled with a woman namedJen and that he was excited for it.
Dale said that thecircumstances surrounding the date
were a little unusual, though.

(05:02):
John didn't have an address,and instead of having an address,
it was just these bizarreinstructions on where to meet behind
a garage.
Dale asked John to call himwhen he got there and give him the
address.
And it's all over the place.
Like the actual instructionsthat he had written down.
And they are very weird, butalso very specific.

(05:24):
He was able to get there.
Yeah, the instructions werevery specific on, like, where to
turn and what to do and thatthe garage would be slightly open
for him.
So very weird, Very weirdthing to say for a first date.
Meet me.
You don't say like, meet me atthis restaurant or meet me here?
No, meet me in this, like backalley garage.
I think that.
So from conversations thatwe'll talk about in a second, it's

(05:46):
clear that they werepotentially meeting up just for like
a one night hangout, if you will.
I don't think it's strangethat they didn't meet in a public
place, but I do think it'sbizarre that it was like, meet me
in a garage.
Yes, yes.
We'll talk about moreinstructions at a later time as well.
So John called Dale when hegot to the garage, you know, for
his date with Jen, and he toldDale that Jen wasn't there.

(06:08):
He went on to explain that hemet a man in the garage who told
him he was a filmmaker.
The filmmaker went on to showJohn some of the movie props, including
a fake gun.
Weird.
Weird.
Very weird.
William Stanek, who was afriend and coworker of John's, testified
about messages that he hadreceived from him.
So John had messaged Williamthat he was planning to meet a woman,
Jen, and he had met her off ofplenty of fish and that they were

(06:31):
meeting for them to have sex.
And he explained the bizarreinstructions to him.
And William was also like,this is weird.
So he told Dale.
He also told William, like,hey, it's weird that this is what
happened.
Like, I got there, she wasn't there.
A guy was there.
This is strange.
But what he shared withWilliam as well was the messages

(06:53):
that Jen sent John later,because John ends up going back to
the garage.
And so the message that he gotwas, I want to Play very much.
But I have to be cautious,which I'm sure you understand.
On a lighter note, you saidyou have four days off.
How long can I keep you for?
If I choose, maybe you shouldpack for a few days.

(07:14):
Lol.
The next message said, I'llleave the garage door partly open
for you to sneak into.
That's so weird.
Ooh, it's weird.
It's weird.
I could see that if you'relike, you know, trying to hook up
with.
Somebody, you don't want theneighbors to know or.
Yeah, yeah.
Like it's.
You're not like, I need tolike fully vet this person.
You're not going to marrythem, you know, Fair.

(07:35):
The last time Dale heard fromJohn was an email he got later that
same night.
And in the email, John said hewas going back to the garage to meet
Jen.
And remember earlier we saidthat on the 12th he was supposed
to meet Dale to give himmotorcycle lessons.
He never showed up.
And he seemed like he was avery good friend and he would like
be there when he said he wasgoing to be.
Yes.

(07:56):
So when John was meeting Jenand the conversations that he had
during that day with hisfriends, that all happened on October
10th.
So October 10th passes by,they get to the night, they don't
hear from him.
The next day they don't hearfrom him.
He doesn't show up to hang outwith dale.
Then on October 13th, John'sboss, Desmond Hart, received a resignation

(08:18):
email from John.
He followed up with the emailto say, like, hey, where should I
send your last check?
But he never got a response.
On that same day, Deb, Daleand William and other friends received
an email from John.
And from what it seems, itwasn't just like a mass email where
like everybody who was on hisemail list got it.

(08:38):
They were different, they varied.
In the emails he said he metup with a woman named Jen.
She was taking him on animpromptu trip to Costa Rica for
several months and he wouldn'tbe back until December.
10Th, a specific date.
Yes, yes.
And he was a relatively, Idescribe it as chronically online
about myself.
Right.
Like he existed on theInternet before the Internet was

(09:00):
how we know it today.
There were lots of articlesthat talked about that he had like
really strong friendships withpeople who he had met online and
talked to through messageboards in the late 90s.
Long term friendships.
All that to say that he did alot of speaking textually.
So he was doing things likecommunicating with friends via email
on a regular basis.
So people were able to look atthis and go, this is not him.

(09:23):
Right.
And if you notice, we'resaying that he emailed people frequently.
Right.
He didn't text them with his phone.
He was typically on hiscomputer emailing them.
Yes, yes.
And this is all from email, too.
So in Deb's email, he didn'tcall her sunshine and he didn't have
jokes, and there were no emojis.
And she, like, read it and waslike, this is weird.
Like, is he mad at me?

(09:44):
That's how different it waswith William.
The email started off with,hey, man.
And so he was immediatelylike, that's not how he talks.
And that's not how we talk.
This is weird.
And Dale reads it, and it'slike, John lived in Hawaii for a
little while.
He hated the heat.
He wouldn't want to go onvacation for three months to someplace
that's hot.
So he's also like, this isn't right.

(10:05):
And Dale emailed back andasked, quote, unquote, John, who
would be picking up John'sbrother from the airport.
There was no brother cominginto the airport.
Dale was sending this as atrap, hoping that the person would
respond, being like, oh, Ihave it covered, or something like
that.
Yeah.
So he would know that itwasn't John.
But he never got a response.
No, they knew the trap.
Yeah.
So when the weird email aboutCosta Rica was sent, John's mother,

(10:28):
Alfreda, was on her way to Mexico.
And then a few days later, hisfriends in law enforcement also began
reaching out to her about it.
So the date is on the 10th,the emails are on the 13th.
And then a few days afterthat, people see that John's MSN
messenger status changed to,quote, I've got a one way ticket

(10:49):
to heaven and I'm not comingback, period.
That's weird.
Very weird.
Very strange.
And also unnecessarily.
Tongue in cheek.
Yes, yes.
And for those that don't knowwhat MSN messenger was, I just thought
about that.
I'm like, people might not know.
Oh, my gosh.
Yeah, I feel elderly.
But think of, like, being ableto message someone online and it's

(11:10):
attached to your email addressand it's kind of like AOL messenger,
but the MSN version.
Aim.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I use that one all the time.
I don't know if you did, but Iused both.
Oh, you were a messenger person.
I was an AIM gal.
I had both.
I was in AIM screen names.
I had the MSN messenger, but Inever really used it.
But the idea was, is like, ifyou were going to be Away from your

(11:31):
computer, but online, youwould have this status up.
Depending on who you were andthe age you were, it might be different.
For me, it was dumb quotes or,like, vague statements.
Emo song lyrics.
Yeah, yeah.
He was an adult at this time,so presumably he wasn't posting stuff
like that, but we don't know.
Right.
So because of thisstrangeness, he's not showing up.

(11:52):
He's not answering calls.
They've gotten this strangeemail that clearly isn't him.
Dale and some of John's otherfriends go to the police, and the
police are like, we don't haveenough for a search warrant.
We can't go into his home.
And his friends are like, notgood enough.
We'll go check his home.
I do the same.
They enter his home throughthe first floor window.
Notice how we said enter.

(12:13):
And they notice pretty quicklythat it doesn't look like John went
on vacation.
First off, there's dirtydishes that look like he cooked earlier
that day.
His bed's not made.
It's, like, messy.
He doesn't look like he wasplanning to come back in three months.
It looks like he was planningto come back in a couple hours.
If you were leaving threemonths, you wouldn't leave dirty
dishes in the sink, right?
No, no.
They also found his passport,which he would need if he was going

(12:36):
to leave the country, and hisshaving kit.
So would also need that.
Right.
Based on his apartment lookinglike he was going to return the emails
and the weird status messageand the fact that John's 2005 red
Mazda 3 was missing, policefinally decided to start looking
for him.
And the first place theylooked was airport parking lots,

(12:56):
because they were like, well,he said he was going to Costa Rica.
And it's like, are you listening?
Right.
And it sucks that it takes somuch to convince them, like, yeah,
our friend is missing.
Yeah, the friends normally know.
Yeah.
So law enforcement was able touse directions John had forwarded
to his friends to the locationwhere he was supposed to meet Jen.
It was a garage, like she hadstated, but it was being rented by

(13:19):
a man named Mark Twitchell.
In Twitchell's initialstatements to police, he explained
that he rented the garage tofilm a short horror film titled House
of Cards.
All I think of is the TV show Agreed.
Yes.
So the movie was about amarried man who was lured from a
dating site to a garage andwas murdered.
Hmm.

(13:40):
Sounds kind of familiar.
Right?
Law enforcement askedTwitchell to meet them at the garage
so that they could lookaround, and he agreed to do so.
In his first interview withauthorities, he was interviewed by
Detective Mike Tabler.
And during the interview, hespent an abnormally long period of
time talking about movies thathe had plans to make.
He was also so incredibly calmduring this.

(14:02):
Yeah, one of the most calmconversations I've ever seen of a.
Like, a person being interrogated.
He gets tired later on through it.
But he's weird.
He's very calm.
Calm like he has nothing to hide.
Exactly.
And he didn't think he wasever going to get caught.
He thought he was a genius.
He really did.
So in his statements,Twitchell explained that when he

(14:22):
got a call from the constableto meet him at the garage on 18 October,
they encountered a padlock onthe door that they had never seen
before.
He had also gotten severalcalls from a company that managed
his rental, and he began toworry that someone else was using
the garage without his knowledge.
He went into the garage withlaw enforcement after the lock was
cut and noticed that it didn'tlook like the last time he was there.

(14:45):
For example, the lights wereleft on some of the duct tape and
a few of the trash bags hadbeen used.
And he specified that they hadonly used a few trash bags.
And now half the box was missing.
I just feel if I was walkinginto a space and I was either, one,
genuinely concerned thatsomeone had broken into the space

(15:06):
and done something, or two,was trying to act as though that
was the case, I might not beso into the inventory of trash bags.
Right.
I wouldn't be trying to, like,spin a narrative.
I would be like, hey, it lookslike big things are moved.
I wouldn't be like, oh, weonly used a few trash bags and now

(15:27):
more than half of them are gone.
Right.
That's a weird place to go.
It's not a detail that you'dprobably notice that quickly.
Yeah.
And it's also drawingattention to the fact that so many
trash bags have been used whenyou shouldn't have had to use that
many trash bags for what youwere supposedly doing if it was you.
Right.
Another detail that he broughtup is a steel drum that had been

(15:49):
used as a trash can was now adifferent color.
So he thought that it had beenused as a fire pit.
Again, we're trying to tell a story.
He's trying to lead them in adirection that is too close to what
could have happened, you know?
Yeah, we'll talk about that.
But, yeah, he's giving a lotof detail here.
Yeah.
And this is, like, in hisactual, like, written statement to
police, he writes I think itwas used as a fire pit.

(16:11):
This isn't like, us inferring,like, he actually said fire pit.
Right.
Twitchell explained that theprevious Friday, which would have
been the 10th, he had leftaround 5:30pm and he didn't see anyone
around that time.
One of the exchanges in theinterview is this.
Tablr.
Now it's me.
I'm just thinking about this.
I mean, it's kind of odd thatyou're filming that kind of thing.

(16:33):
Twitchell.
Mm.
Tablr.
And we end up going to thegarage because of a missing person.
Twitchell.
Yeah.
Tabler, who supposedly went there.
Then Twitchell says, that'sreally freaky, too.
And as soon as they called meon the phone, as soon as Maxwell
called me and said that, youknow, this is what's going on, I
got this weird chill.
I mean, he's not even a good actor.

(16:55):
And Maxwell, by the way, is a.
Is the constable who met him there.
But we don't talk about this,but the next person that interviews
him is like, you're not a good actor.
And he's like, I never said Iwas an actor.
I'm a producer and a writer.
And he's like, no, no, no.
But we can tell you're lyingis what I'm saying.
And he's like that Pokemonmeme where he's like, what?
You know.
Yeah, he absolutely thinks heis just the smoothest guy.

(17:18):
Really?
Yeah.
And it's insane that he justthought it would be that easy.
Yeah.
Detective Tabler specificallyasked whether he met anyone at the
garage, and Twitchell replied, no.
Tabler also asked Twitchelwhether the name Jen meant anything
to him.
And again, Twitchellresponded, no.
So after the interview, hegoes home, and in terms of order

(17:38):
of events, he has a daughterwho is less than a year old that
his wife has been with, andshe hasn't had a break.
So I think they switch off,and then he sleeps.
And then once they're bothawake again, he's like, this is what's
going on.
And so they start talkingabout other things that had happened
in the past couple of weeksthat were a little weird.
And he's like, oh, maybe Ishould write to the detective that

(18:00):
I spoke with and just fill himin on these details.
And his wife Jess is like,great idea.
So he does.
And so this is the otherinformation he includes in that email.
So the first thing was that onOctober 8th, Twitch will have met
a friend at Southgate Mall,and they decided that they were going
to carpool to the show.
They were going to.
And they used the friend's car.
Now, when he got back to hiscar, his car looked normal, but the

(18:22):
doors were unlocked.
And so when he got inside, henoticed that a few things were taken.
Sunglasses receipts, a WesternUnion receipt with his home address
and rental receipts from thegarage with the garage address on
them.
So this is on the 8th.
Amanda, are you worried aboutany of those things?
Someone breaks into your carand steals your sunglasses and some

(18:42):
trash, Are we freaked out?
So in today's world, when ithas your address on it, that is a
little bit of a fear, becausethat is like rings of people where
they target primarily peoplethat are parked at the airport.
Yeah, but, I mean, it's at themall, right?
Yeah.
I don't know if I would noticethat otherwise.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So nothing of value ismissing, but he files a police report.

(19:05):
Interesting.
Mm.
Almost like you were trying tobegin a story of someone having the
address to the garage andbreaking into places.
Maybe.
I don't know.
Then, on October 12, he, hiswife, and his daughter were coming
home from Thanksgiving dinner.
Remember, they're in Canada,so October makes sense.
And he noticed that the frontdoor was completely unlocked, and

(19:27):
their locking mechanism was adeadbolt and then a doorknob lock.
And in his statement, he sayshis wife is very intense about making
sure that the door is shut andlocked, so it would be strange if
it was unlocked.
And when they came in, therewas nothing missing from the home.
So he just chalked it up tomaybe we left it unlocked.

(19:47):
So keep in mind, just some dates.
Again, October 10th is whenJen and John have their date.
October 12th is when hedoesn't show up for his friend.
October 13th, we have theseemails going around, and it's after
that the police step in.
The next date in his email isOctober 15th, and he said he was

(20:07):
on his way to his garage afterbuying some new cleaning supplies
that he had purchased.
And one of the reasons he hadbought new supplies is because they
had filmed one of the moregory scenes with the fake blood,
which was corn syrup and fooddye, so it would be very sticky.
So he was on his way back todo some more cleaning, and on his
way, he stopped to take a call.

(20:28):
And when, just as he finishedhis phone call, someone knocked on
his car window.
Twitchell would later describethe person as excited, easygoing,
but like a kind person.
Said he was white, six two,with a medium build, black hair,
and a Celtic knot tattoo onthe right side of his neck.
And he also described what hewas wearing as A green windbreaker,

(20:49):
jeans, and black shoes.
He said that the personintroduced themselves as Mark, which
is also his name.
And he thought.
And he was like, I rememberbecause he.
It was my name.
And that's weird.
I'm like, okay, interestingdetail, guy.
Easy name to remember.
Yeah.
And the person was like, doyou want to buy my car from me?
And Twitch was like, what doyou mean?
And we're going to say Mark asthe seller of the car and Twitchell

(21:11):
as Twitchel.
Right?
So Twitchell's like, what doyou mean?
And Mark's like, well, I'vehooked up with a wealthy woman who's
taking me on a trip and she'sgoing to buy me something brand new,
so I don't even care what Iget for this.
And so he's like, how muchmoney do you have on you?
And Twitchel's like, I have 40 bucks.
And Mark's like, sold 40 bucksfor my 2005 Mazda.

(21:32):
It's a three year old car.
So believable, right?
And Twitch was like, this is weird.
Okay, either one, I'm superlucky and I'm getting a car for $40
or this is stolen.
Worst case scenario, I'llcheck it out after I buy it and I'm
out 40 bucks.
Best case scenario, I've gotlike a newish car.
But that's not how you buy cars.

(21:53):
There's paperwork involved.
That's not how you buy cars.
It's not how any of this is done.
So Twitchell's like, follow meback to my garage.
And then Mark's like, yes,sounds good.
So he follows them back.
Then Twitchell's like, once wegot into the garage, Mark started
to get a little nervous andquiet and impatient.
And Twitch was like, here'sthe $40.
And the guy's like, here'sproof of insurance and registration.

(22:15):
And they look legitimate.
I have seen some sources thatsay that there was a bill of sale
that he signed too.
Too specific.
And you would have thatdocumentation afterwards if that
was the case.
Right.
But then the guy leaves thestatement, doesn't say, but we're
presuming that like, he lefton foot since he left his car there.
And after he left, that's whenTwichell notices that the car's a
manual transmission.

(22:36):
And so he's like, oof, I don'tknow how to drive stick.
This is in my garage.
I need it to not be in my garage.
He says that he planned tocheck to see if there were any liens
or if the car was stolen.
That following Monday.
It's a long time to wait.
But he just hadn't gottenaround to it.
Right.
If I thought I was inpossession of stolen goods, I would
immediately call the policebecause I wouldn't want people to

(22:57):
think that I stole it.
Right.
But he doesn't know how todrive stick.
So he calls his friend Josh Hanatic.
And this is the same personwho went to that show with him on
October 8th, by the way.
And he's like, can you movethis car until I have time to check
if there's anything going onwith it?
And the guy's like, yeah,sure, why not?
I'll go park it at my parents house.
I guess I'll get them introuble for stealing a car.
Right.

(23:17):
And when the car is moved, hegets the license plate, so he takes
it off of the car, which is.
Also very weird, especially ifit's possibly a stolen car.
Well, from my understanding,the idea is he's like, oh, I need
that to go.
Look information up.
You could write it down.
Yeah, yeah.
And I mean, in 2008, phonescould take very basic pictures, but.
Pictures?

(23:37):
Yeah, it could take a pictureof a license plate.
It'd be fine.
Also, he had a video camera.
Like, he could video that badboy if he wanted to.
Yeah, for sure.
So the next interview was withDetective Bill Clark.
He was extremely suspicious ofTwitchell, and he didn't hide it.
This is the person who I wastalking about earlier who was like,
you're not a good actor.
Yeah, well, he really wasn'tlike, he comes in hot.
No, he's not.

(23:57):
Yeah.
During the interview, he toldhim his friends were telling them
things.
So he's like, you better tellme because your friends are telling
me already.
So when the police interviewedthe people that were involved with
the movie House of Cards, theyasked the people how much of the
fake blood actually splattered.
And the response was theydidn't really have any blood splatter
anywhere.
And at that point, thedetective knew that there were lots

(24:21):
of visible blood splatter inthe garage.
So if they didn't see it inthe movie, where did this blood splatter
come from?
Yet during this, Twitchellclaimed that the blood splatter that
they saw and investigated wasactually just fake blood.
Don't worry, it's part of the movie.
But again, people in the movieare like, that wasn't there.
This is part of it.
Where I'm like, did you evenpay attention in Dexter?

(24:42):
Because he was literally ablood bladder analyst.
If.
If nothing else, bloodsplatter should be on your mind.
And in the show, he made surethat blood wasn't anywhere when he'd
actually kill people.
Like, he used so much plastic.
Basically, he'd line a roomtop to bottom in plastic to make
sure that it didn't getanywhere and you couldn't find it

(25:03):
later.
Yeah, but this guy didn't dothat and just tried to pass it off
as part of his movie.
Also, when they were speakingto one of the actors, they had mentioned
that they were unnerved whenthey got to the filming location,
the garage, because theyrealized that the weapons were real
and the actor worried becausehe hadn't told anyone where he was
going.
Fair.
And also, all of them werereal except for the gun that was

(25:25):
plastic.
It's important to know later.
Right?
Right.
One of Twitchell's friends,his name was Jason Howitzon, also
worked on House of Cards.
He received an email FromTwitchell on October 23, 2008 that
said, quote, for now, I haveto recommend that everyone stop talking
to the police.
You have the right to silenceand you should exercise that right.

(25:47):
That's not suspicious at all,is it?
Not suspicious at all.
Like, please don't talk to the police.
I'm not going to give you areason why.
Even if he said, hey, it mightlead to us having to stop the movie,
or like, this is how it canimpact me.
But no, it's just don't talkto them.
You don't have to.
Yeah, yeah.
In his email, he said policeshould do their own jobs and to refuse
if the police ask them to comein for a statement.

(26:09):
There is so much evidence thatwas found in this case.
We're going to start bydiscussing the physical evidence
that was found.
Over the course of theinvestigation, police found the following
items.
One of the items was like a todo list or a reminder list of some
kind.
And the the list included killroom, clean sweep, destroy wallet,

(26:31):
contents, return addy of vic,ship phone, wallets on.
That is not a normal to dolist in any way, shape or form.
I am a to do list person.
Writing things down helps me.
This just doesn't feel like agood idea.
No, no.
There are also notes ondirections to John's home.
Woof.
How did he meet John?

(26:52):
Right.
Like he made up this weirdstory about how he got John's car.
Yep.
But he called him a different name.
Very weird.
So in Twitchell's car, theyfound a receipt for a goalie mask,
a hunting knife and a sheath.
And there were alsobloodstains in the trunk, which again,
if that's part of a movie, whywould your trunk personally be used
for it?
Yeah, well, and also, whywould the knife and sheath be in

(27:12):
your car if that's a prop?
Yeah, exactly.
There were also bloodstains inJohn's car.
And then in Twitchell'sresidence, they found diluted blood
stains in the washing machineand then various receipts for things
like a 45 gallon steel drum,coveralls, caulk combination lock,
handcuffs, drop cloths andgloves, and four bottles of red food

(27:35):
coloring and corn syrup.
So, like, maybe some of thosecould be part of the movie, but like,
really?
Yeah, it is clear that themovie was being made like that was
happening.
It seems he was dual purposingsome of the equipment.
He was like, this is for mymovie and for this.
Because, like, again, he saidhe bought that steel drum as a trash
can.

(27:55):
Right.
Why wouldn't you just buy a trash.
Can a lot cheaper?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And the lock is interestingbecause, remember when he went with
police, he was like, thisisn't my lock here.
So, like, where did that lockcome from if he didn't just buy it
here?
Mm.
Now, in the garage, there'slots more evidence.
They found receipts for 24inch long metal pipes, a hunting
knife and a sheath, a gameprocessing kit which included a caper

(28:19):
knife, meat cleaver, skinnerknife, boning or filet knife, shears,
a saw, carving fork and ahandle with a sharpener edge.
So an entire kit.
They all also had whatappeared to be blood on them.
And then they also found,inside the garage, a rib spreader
kit, but luckily that did nothave blood on it.
They also found a stun batonthat could deliver up to 800,000

(28:43):
volts.
Woof.
Seems like a lot.
A 24 inch pipe with tape onone of the ends.
And then scrapings of tissuewere taken from the inside and outside
of the non taped edge of that pipe.
Dr.
Graham Dowling, the chiefmedical examiner, concluded that
there was skin, fat, skeletalmuscle, fibrous tissue and bone on

(29:05):
the pipe, but could notdefinitely state whether it was from
a human.
Based off of his visualinspection at trial, they described
the pipe as, quote, almostblood soaked.
That's really sad.
Yeah.
There were two more pipesfound as well that had charred material
on them.
And fragments of a tooth werealso found.
Dr.
Lowell Reimer, a forensicdentistry consultant, concluded that

(29:30):
the tooth fragment was from ahuman's incisor tooth.
Luminol was used to see ifthere were traces of blood.
And when they used it, theySaw that a large portion of the middle
of the garage glowed, whichshowed that there was a large pool
of blood.
They also did some DNAtesting, and the tooth fragment and
a piece of pelvic bone wereboth ground down so that it could

(29:51):
be tested for DNA.
Blood from the trunks of bothcars were also tested for DNA, and
all of them were a match for John.
Fuck.
And this is a lot of physicalevidence, is it not?
You don't often see this much.
No.
And he was just so convincedthat everyone would just buy his
movie story that I feel likehe didn't even try.
Yeah, I agree.

(30:11):
So Twitchell had a Facebook profile.
Amanda, do you remember whenyou could get onto Facebook and you
could have a name that wasn'tyours and Facebook wouldn't freak
out?
Right?
Like, because nowadays, like,people can report like, you're trying
to be someone else orwhatever, and it gets taken down
fairly quick.
I also remember when you hadto have, what, a college email address

(30:32):
to have a Facebook, and thenthat was a little more tight lipped,
I guess.
Yeah, it's gone through a lotof changes.
Or you had to have aninvitation to get a Gmail account.
Yes.
What a time.
I saw my Hotmail because of that.
She does.
And I bring this up becauseTwitchel had a Facebook profile with
the name Dexter Morgan, whichis the character from Dexter.

(30:53):
And there was a woman namedRenee Waring who came across the
account and was like, I like Dexter.
I'd like to be friends with,you know, whoever made this account.
And at the height of theirfriendship, Renee and Twitchell were
talking multiple times a day,and she described the interactions
as kind of flirty.
Now, in one of theirconversations before John disappeared,

(31:15):
they were talking about how tocommit a murder and get away with
it.
And he gives her unnecessarilyspecific ideas on how to do so.
But he also, at the same time,is mansplaining the show Dexter.
He is simply just saying whatDexter does in the show.
Like, this isn't necessary to do.
He's like, get a kill room.

(31:37):
Use a stun gun.
Okay.
Dexter doesn't use a stun gun.
He uses medicine and a syringe.
But pulverize the jawbone.
Remove teeth and fingertips toavoid identification.
He talks about bludgeoningsomeone in the head with a copper
pipe with tape on the end, bythe way.
Very specific.
Dexter doesn't do that.
But he also says you shouldthen dismembered them and throw them

(31:58):
into Lake Erie because shelived in Michigan, so it's very similar.
Mm.
And also then very specific tohow he would kill someone.
Right, right.
There's details that aren'tfound in the show, but they are found
in John's case.
Mm.
So then in a conversationthat's after this, he tells her that

(32:19):
he crossed a line on Fridaynight and that he liked it.
Given that their conversationshave been about this kind of stuff,
she took this as him havingkilled someone.
Yeah.
As anyone would.
Mm.
Now, Twitchell will later saythat he.
He was cheating on his wife.
We'll talk about that just briefly.
Because he's a scumbag,because he's cheating on his wife,
but more because he's amurderer, you know?

(32:41):
Yeah.
But, like, he says that it'sbecause he crossed the line with
another woman, not because ofthe murder, but I don't think that's
true.
No one thinks that's true.
No, but.
Okay, so pretty soon after,she reached out to police and was
like, here's this chat history.
It's suspicious.
It's unclear whether he wasalready arrested.
And in the news at this.

(33:01):
I don't know when that wentthrough, because it's all happening
kind of in mid October.
Yeah, it's after he's beenquestioned, and it's probably on
the news, so.
Amanda, this part is thefucking most wild to me.
I've actually never seenanything in a case where I've been
like, this is the dumbestthing I've ever seen a criminal do
in my entire life.
Hands down, the dumbest thing.

(33:22):
It's no Chad deball.
Oh, this is worse.
This is worse than Chad deball.
To me, it is pretty bad.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we're moving on.
So we just talked aboutFacebook chats, and we're going to
talk about another piece ofdigital evidence that police find.
And outside of DNA, I thinkit's one of the most damning things
they find.
So they're searching hiscomputer that is covered in Spider

(33:44):
man stickers.
I just feel like that'simportant to note.
Bizarrely put on there, too.
Like, that's how my son put stickers.
Yeah.
They are put on there like a child.
And his daughter is, like,eight or nine months old.
So they weren't from her.
It's just him.
Exactly.
Yeah.
But.
Okay.
They find a document in hisdeleted files titled SK Confessions.
Police are like, is that me?

(34:05):
Does that mean serial killer confessions?
Absolutely.
The code is not coding here.
We're not like, he's no Zodiac.
He's just like, they won'tknow what SK means.
No one would.
So from Our understanding thiswas found before they had received
some of the DNA testing.
So they were, like, stilltrying to get 100% foolproof case.

(34:26):
Before we get into thecontents, let's talk about some of
the names in the document.
In the document, thenarrator's wife named Tess.
Twitchell's wife.
Her name's Jess.
The narrator's daughter iscalled Zoe.
Twitchell's daughter is Chloe.
The woman that the narrator ischeating on his wife with is Lacy.
However, who Twitchell isactually cheating on his wife with

(34:46):
is an ex girlfriend whose nameis Tracy.
He thinks out of the box.
He really does.
He also in the story talksabout designing a Celtic knot tattoo
for Lacey.
And in real life, he did thatfor Tracy.
And he talked about thefictional mark having a Celtic knot
tattoo.

(35:06):
So he's just.
He just likes those astattoos, I guess.
Fucking bizarre.
So let's get into what thisdocument said.
Here's what it starts with.
This is the story of myprogression into becoming a serial
killer.
Like anyone just starting outin a new skill, I had a bit of trial
and error in the beginning ofmy misadventures.
Allow me to start from thebeginning, and I think you'll see
what I mean.
I don't remember the exactplace and time it was that I decided

(35:29):
to become a serial killer, butI remember the sensation that hit
me when I committed to the decision.
It was a rush of pure euphoria.
I felt lighter, less stressed,if you will, at the freedom of the
prospect.
There was something abouturgently exploring my dark side that
greatly appealed to me.
And I'm such a methodicalplanner and thinker.
The very challenge itself wasenticing to behold.

(35:50):
What a thinker.
What a thinker.
I cannot tell you.
One of the things that I liketo do that I don't talk about a lot
is writing.
And I read a lot.
And I can tell you it was oneof the worst written things I've
ever seen.
It was just bad.
And whenever he's writinganything, I would just say he's trying
to appear smarter than he is.

(36:12):
So he's using words that don'talways make the most sense.
We'll talk more about thatlater when we read something else
that he wrote.
But, like, it's just so bad.
But the poorly writtennarrative goes into how the narrator
would lure his victims.
Single men from dating sites,and he would break into their apartments
to steal their valuables afterhe murdered them.
The narrator continues todescribe where he would murder people,

(36:35):
a garage, the tools he woulduse, a game processing kit, a stun
baton, a hunting knife, andhow he would dispose of their bodies
by burning them in a steel drum.
Another quote from thedocument is, you see, in my day life,
I'm an independent filmmakerand everything that I have in the
garage could be easilyexplained away as props for filming
a psychological thriller.

(36:55):
Why the fuck did he write allof this down?
For who?
As he said, serial SKConfessions, baby.
What the literal fuck.
So after there's like thislike, supposition of like, here's
what I would do and how Iwould do it and who I am, he talks
then about specific things.
So he goes into detail aboutluring a man to a garage, then the
man leaving, then convincingthe guy to come back, just like he

(37:19):
did with John.
The document also goes intospecific details of stabbing a man
to death before dismembering him.
All of which is recounted with joy.
Pausing for a moment to takeit in.
Right.
So dumb.
And he's like, this is just writing.
This is just writing.
This isn't what happened.
Right.
This is just a story.
Now, one part of the narrativethat wasn't accounted for already

(37:42):
that's in that document is thefirst victim, which is not John.
It's somebody who got away.
And we're going to talk moreabout that in just a moment.
Yes.
And if this is just writing, Idon't understand how he thought he
could explain away the firstpart that he said where the person
left and then came back.
Based off of the emails thatJohn's friends have.
Right.
Saying that he left and thencame back to see the girl Jen.

(38:06):
And then also the first victimthat got away is going to be very
interesting when we get to it.
But anyway, so On Halloween of2008, police lured Twichell from
his parents home where he wasworking on his costume.
I just imagine that he liveslike in the basement and his parents
are just like, I wish he'dmove out.
He didn't, but it has that vibe.
He was working on his Iron man costume.

(38:27):
Yeah.
They had someone pose as aninvestor for his next movie project
and asked that he meet them ata particular cafe.
Which, like, the firstquestion I thought of is like, why
would an investor want to talkwith him?
But he did have a productioncompany and he did have some other
small films that did getpretty popular.
Judging from how he wrotethis, I wouldn't think that that

(38:49):
happened.
Right.
Like how he wrote, you would not.
Think so particular thing.
But apparently some people didlike him and enjoy his work.
But anyway, so investor askedto Meet him at a cafe.
Then a tactical teamapprehended Twitchel when he was
about three blocks from hisparents house, and he was so scared,
he peed himself.
I love this.

(39:09):
And I also love that thatparticular detail comes from a 48
Hours episode where they'retalking about the case, where Detective
Clark is talking about it.
And he is filled with so muchjoy about that fact.
Like, you could tell he'slike, he peed himself with joy.
Little Shepherd.
Right.
Well, and especially becausehe is into himself, right.

(39:30):
He's like, no one would everknow what I'm doing.
And he's like, now thisinvestor's talking to me.
Like, he really thought, like,I'm moving up in this world.
And then it's like, no, fuckyou, dude.
You're a terrible person.
You're going to prison.
But anyways, so lawenforcement reached out to the local
media to see if they couldfind any other victims of Twitchel,
given, you know, that writingthat explained that there was a first
victim.

(39:50):
In early November of 2008,Gilles Tetro told a friend about
a horrific encounter that hehad experienced.
After he explained whathappened, his friend said, you should
reach out to law enforcementbecause he had just saw a news segment
about what police were lookingfor, being the first victim.
And his friend was like, thatcould be you.

(40:11):
And I want to say, initially,he didn't go to the police after
what we're going to talk abouthappened because he was so embarrassed
and he was, like, afraid thatthey would think of him differently.
Right.
Yeah.
Which is sad because a lot ofpeople feel that way for many different
reasons.
Mm.
So the story that Gilles toldwas nearly an exact match of what
police had seen written inTwitchell's SK Confessions document.

(40:35):
So in Gilles story, the womanhe was going to meet was named Sheena.
And she had told him thegarage door would be half open when
he got to the destination.
And again, they were likeconvoluted directions on how to get
to this weird garage.
No address.
So then he gets to the garageand he ducks in, you know, to get
into the half open garage.
And it's very dark inside.

(40:56):
Immediately someone came upbehind him and put him into a bear
hug.
Then the person struck himseveral times with a black object.
Gilles turned around to lookat the person attacking him and saw
a person who was wearing ahockey mask without a mouth area.
And the mask actually is alittle weird looking.
Like it doesn't look like yourtypical hockey mask when you're looking

(41:16):
at the evidence pictures.
It's Weird.
Yeah.
It's an amber color and it hasblack streaks on it, and then it
has that section carved out of it.
Right, right.
He said that the attacker kepttriggering the black object and that
it would make noise and turn blue.
Gilles said it was like a bugzapper, but it didn't really hurt,
which is interesting.
I feel like maybe it wasn'tworking properly or something, because

(41:37):
it seems like it should have.
It might have been adrenaline.
That's true.
They were staring at oneanother until the attacker pulled
out a gun and yelled forGilles to get on the ground.
So of course he did.
He got down on the garagefloor, and then the attacker put
duct tape over his eyes, whichsounds very painful.
Ow.
Ow.
Yeah.
He remembered how he wasworried that he hadn't told anyone

(41:58):
where he was going so no onewould know where he was.
G heard a metal jinglingsound, and he was concerned that
he was fiddling with his belt.
He was worried that theattacker was going to pull out a
knife or try to rape him.
Gilles decided that he wasgoing to fight back, and he jumped
up.
He pulled the tape off of hiseyes, and then he grabbed the gun.
Now, when he grabbed the gun,he realized that it was just plastic,

(42:21):
so it wasn't even real.
They were still fighting whenGilles rolled out of the garage,
got up and started to run.
But then he fell.
This is like a classic horrormovie rolling out of my head.
He felt weak and started tocrawl away, but the attacker came
out, grabbed him by the legs,and then started dragging him back
into the garage.
Once he was back in thegarage, G was able to get free again

(42:43):
and took off running.
Once he was on the street, hesaw a couple that was walking, and
he ran over to them.
He told them what was goingon, and they seemed super stunned,
which, like, I can't imaginesomeone coming up to me on the street
and telling me this.
That would be very scary and,like, just weird.
I would absolutely beterrified, for sure.
These poor people.
So of course they're.

(43:04):
They're stunned.
They're like, what the fuck is happening?
Then the attacker caught up toG and was shocked that he was with
people, of course.
And so he started acting likethey were friends.
He said stuff like, come on,friend, and then acted like he was
going to take off the mask.
The only part of this whereI'm like, your Dexter esque is because,
like, they talk about Dexter,like, not knowing how to react in,

(43:26):
like, human situations, tryingto act like someone's friend.
He, like, he was like, what ifFriends say to one another, come
on, friend.
Like, it also has, like, a J.D.
vance vibe to it.
That's all I was thinking.
I'm a human who orders donuts.
That's what it feels like.
It's like, come on, friend,let's go be pals.
That weird awkwardness.
Yeah, let's go do friendlythings together as friends.

(43:48):
Yeah, let's do friend things.
Like where I drag you into a garage.
Right, right.
And then, bizarrely, he justturned and started walking away.
He's like, this human thing'snot working.
I gotta go.
So the couple started walkingaway too.
They're like, okay, walk away.
They're not sure what thefuck's happening.
Gilles said something like,hey, aren't you going to help me

(44:09):
out?
And the guy turned around, butthe woman with him said, leave it.
The man and woman later saidthat they left because they were
scared, not because theydidn't believe him.
Which, like, fair, I don't.
I guess that's hard to decidewhat you do in that situation until
it presents yourself.
Yes.
But also, that really sucks.
Well, and the woman inparticular, because she testified,

(44:30):
she was like, I could see theguy peering over the fence watching
us.
Yeah.
She was like, I didn't knowwhat to do.
And I'm like, I don't knowwhat I would do in that situation.
I would hope I would helpsomeone, though.
Right, right.
But again, like, 2008, noteveryone had, like, their cell phone
with them at all times.
And, like, cell phones didn'tlast as long.
Like, there could be a lot ofother things going on too.

(44:50):
Mm.
So luckily, Gilles got intohis truck and was able to drive away
when Jill got home and lookedat his computer, the profile that
he was messaging, all of themessages were deleted.
In an interview with 48 Hours,Gilles said that he still thinks
about the baton in the hockeymask, which, like, fair, that's terrifying.
And especially after you findout, like, that could have been you.

(45:11):
Yes.
Like, you narrowly got awayfrom the bizarre thing that he was
planning.
And Gilles has written his own book.
It's called the One who GotAway Escape from the Kill Room.
And it was published in 2015.
And we'll include a link forhis book in our show notes.
It absolutely does feel like ahorror movie.
They're mid fight, he rollsout, he goes to stand up, he goes

(45:34):
down, and then, like, dragginghim back.
Yeah.
I cannot imagine how justheartbreaking that would have felt
when you were like, okay, I'm free.
And then you're down.
And then he's pulling you.
And it's like, what the fuckam I gonna do?
Yeah, clearly something isgoing to happen.
Right?
Right.
Because if nothing was goingto happen, he would have let him

(45:54):
leave.
Exactly.
So here we are so far with adocument explaining how the narrator
of the SK Confessions documentwould kill someone.
How they attacked someone andthey got away with a shockingly accurate
depiction of what Gilles experienced.
Then a subsequent murder bystabbing that the narrator conducts

(46:18):
and then dismembers thevictim, recounts with joy.
No remorse.
Very similar.
We've got a trunk full ofblood, both Twichell's car and John's
car.
We've got weapons, we've gotbloodstains, we've got DNA.
We've got weird to do lists.
We've got.
I think I've crossed a line.
Strange stories about a guycoming to buy a car.

(46:41):
We are positively teeming with evidence.
Right?
Yes.
And yet, during trial,Twichell still tries to spin the
murder as an accident.
So let's talk about theexplanation that he gave.
Per Twichell, he neverintended to kill John and he was
never going to kill Gilles,Only trying to scare him.

(47:02):
Okay.
He said that his plan was toscare some men that he had met on
dating websites so he couldcreate an urban legend that would
create buzz for his film Houseof Cards.
No, disagree disrespectfully.
I disagree.
Because you wouldn't have goneback after Gilles.
He was already terrified.

(47:23):
Right?
Like, yes, if your plan was toscare someone so that they told people,
you wouldn't have called him twice.
But also, he still had thedirections on how to get to that
garage.
Like, and he wasn't freakedout by that.
And then also, like, thinkingabout that the person got away.
Right?
Gilles got away, had thedirections to the garage, and then
he uses the same damn garageto do it again and actually kill

(47:45):
someone.
Like, he's a complete.
And in the SK Confessionsdocument, he talks about how he's
preoccupied and terrifiedabout getting caught.
He thinks that the police aregoing to come.
He keeps thinking it over andover again, but they just never come.
So he talks about being afraidthat he's going to be caught.
And yet, just one week later,that is when John and Jen have their

(48:06):
date.
So again, he's saying thatthis murder was accidental.
So per Twitchel, John comes tothat garage the first time, he's
like, hello, I am a dude, not Jen.
And he lies to him and says,like, but Jen's on her way.
She's just stuck in traffic.
He then has, like, a fakePhone call with Jen.
That is not like a two minutephone call.
Like, it's.
It's at least it's a few minutes.

(48:27):
And in his fake phone call,he's like, oh, she's not going to
be here for 30 minutes.
And then he explains, like,about the props and shit and explains,
like, what the room is.
And then John leaves.
Then there's the messages of,like, let's play.
Come on over.
The garage will be half open.
And Twitchell says, yeah, thatwas me.
I wanted to scare him.

(48:47):
But when Twitchell explains toJohn what he was doing, John gets
angry, which I feel like is areasonable response to being catfished.
Yes.
So they're arguing, beingnasty to each other verbally, and
Twitchell goes to walk away.
And when he walks away, hesays he feels a blow to his lower

(49:08):
back.
I have not seen a descriptionof him saying that there was a weapon.
So I think John punched him inhis lower back.
That's a weird place to punch someone.
That's a weird plucking placeto punch someone.
Exactly where I'm headed.
If I am about to enter analtercation with someone, if I'm,
like, being, like, beefingwith somebody verbally and they punch
me in the lower back, I'mprobably gonna look at them like,

(49:29):
that was a weird choice.
You should probably leave.
I think that the bizarrenessof it would diffuse the situation
because it's such a strangeplace to punch someone.
Tiny cat said hello during that.
It's a weird place to punch someone.
Unless the person's like twiceyour height.
Yeah, exactly.
Unless John was 3ft tallbecause we don't know what their
bodies were proportionally toeach other.
But that's a strange place to punch.

(49:50):
Someone either way, right?
Yeah, either way.
And it's also a strange placeto say someone punched you.
It is.
Either way.
Twitchel's like, I get a blowto my lower back and he says.
He turns around and pushes John.
Now it's at this point thatTwitchell's like, oh, gosh, what
if he goes after my laptop?
Because presumably that'swhere he was catfishing him.
And he's like, my movie's on there.

(50:10):
Like, my scripts are on there.
I don't want to.
I don't want him to damage that.
So Twitchell moves to blockhis pathway.
But right next to the laptopare those, you know, those 24 inch
long pipes with the tape onthe end?
Those are right next to his laptop.
That's a weird place to keep pipes.
Yeah, just saying.
So then he Says that Johngrabbed a pipe.

(50:31):
So Twitchell says that he isdodging John's swings, but on the
third hit, he hits him in the elbow.
And so Twitchell grabs thepipe, twists it out of his hand,
and starts swinging back.
And Twitchell says, like, oh,I just kept swinging because he was
pulling me forward.
John's still punching him evenwhile being bludgeoned with this
pipe.
I don't see how that couldhappen, but okay.

(50:52):
I also don't understand howthat could happen because again,
later we'll find that the pipeis blood soaked, which means there
was a significant amount of injuries.
So, like, to be able to havethe force to really punch someone
in a way that is actually lifethreatening, I just don't see.
And also, you're the personwith the pipe.
The other person is punching you.
You're fine.
So Twitchel said that it was,quote, a mangled mass of swings,

(51:16):
which is just another grossexample of, for me, for him being
like, I'm an artist whentrying explain this unmangled mess
of swings is a great line foronce, but unnecessary.
We were fighting.
It was chaotic.
I don't really know.
It's a blur.
It's just mangled mess ofswing isn't how people talk, but
whatever.
So then John gets the pipeback and is like, my head, my head,

(51:38):
you fuck.
And then John comes toTwitchell again with the pipe.
So Twitchell grabbed his knifebecause why was his knife there?
And so he's like, I'll pull itout of the sheath so it deters John.
So he stops.
But that doesn't, according to Twitchell.
He just keeps coming at him.
And then John doesn't evenrealize that he stabbed him.
And he said, I just started tofeel this wet sensation around the

(52:00):
hand still holding the knife.
And I let go instinctively.
And then I saw it sticking outof him.
Then John stumbled back andcollapsed near the garage door where
it was open.
And Twitchell just stood therewatching him.
The blade was still in hischest, right below his sternum.
Twichell said that after heaccidentally killed John, he panicked.

(52:21):
After all, the room wasdesigned to look like a kill room
because of the movie.
At trial, Twichell teared upwhen he talked about approaching
John's body for the first time.
Fuck him.
Which I fucking hate him.
It just feels so fucking richto be misting up and tearing about
someone's death when you wroteabout murdering and dismembering

(52:42):
them with joy.
Right?
The math is not mathing.
So Twitchell said that theprocess for Dismemberment that he
described in SK Confessionswas pretty close to what he did to
John's body.
You don't say.
So he put his.
He put John's body in a steeldrum and then put that drum in his
car.
Because remember earlier hewas like, when he was describing

(53:02):
what to do, he was like, I'dburn them in a steel drum.
Yeah, well he tries to do that.
So he goes to his parentshouse and he's like, I'll burn the
body there.
That doesn't work.
Where the fuck were his parents?
I don't know.
But like, what the fuck?
So he presumably loadseverything back up in his car and
it says that he goes back tothe garage the next day.

(53:22):
So I don't know if he's justdriving around with the steel drum
that has John's remains in itor if he like left it at his parents
house, unsure.
So when he gets back to thegarage, he dismembered John Moore.
In the document, which hecalls his manuscript, there's joy
and excitement and the personis happy about what they're doing.
Disgusting.
At trial, Twitchell's like,that's the opposite of how I felt.

(53:45):
And I just don't see how youwould write it like that, right?
If what you felt was disgustand guilt and terror and worry, why
you would write it like youliked it.
Well also, and if he's afilmmaker, right, he knows how to
convey an emotion and so heknew what he was doing.
So after he was finisheddismembering him those trash bags

(54:08):
we mentioned earlier, that'swhere he put the remains.
And then he dumped John'sremains into a sewer.
He then looked at John'slicense and used the keys that he
had had with him to get intohis home.
He then went on to explainthat he emailed people to try to
buy himself some time and thathe even stole John's laptop computer
and printer just in case hehad printed out directions or something
on it.
This guy, right, he's soweird, right?

(54:31):
Like it's not like the typicalperson we talk about.
He's just weird.
He writes about murder, butthen claims that he doesn't know
what he's doing and that hewouldn't follow what he wrote.
It's just like you said at thebeginning of the episode.
He's so dumb.
Horror writers can write awfulthings that they don't do.
But if you write aboutsomething that is really close to

(54:51):
how something happened, peopleare going to think that you did that.
Exactly.
I feel like that's reasonable.
Yes.
From my understanding, in themovie for House of Cards, the twist
is supposed to be that akiller lures this married guy, kills
him.
And the twist is, is that thatactually didn't happen.
It was a story written by aman, but that that man is also a

(55:13):
killer, but that's just not astory of his things.
So that would mean that hemade a movie as a murderer about
a different type of murderthat was committed by a writer that
wasn't committed but waswritten about by another writer.
That is the most convolutedthing I've ever fucking heard of
in my life.
Yeah.
Like I said, weird.
I'm angry just thinking about it.

(55:34):
It's frustrating how stupidand how pompous he was, where he
was like, no, I'm justextremely intelligent.
No one will ever figure me out.
I'm so good at this.
Yeah.
It's his arrogance.
Yeah.
And like you said, when he'swriting all this down, he seems really
excited and happy and likehe's having the best time of his
life.
And it's like, how dare you?
Like, you're.
Yeah, gif.

(55:54):
You're just mad that he got toenjoy any piece of his life, I guess.
Yeah.
Yes.
So In June of 2010, Twitchellgave law enforcement a Google map
that would lead them to wherethe remains would be found.
He said that he did this inorder to give John's family and friends
some closure.
I think he did it just so itcould seem like he actually had remorse.
I think so too.
Like, I think he was trying tobe like it was an accident.

(56:15):
It wasn't premeditated.
No, it was.
So during his trial, Twichellwas adamant that the murder was self
defense.
Twichell did not show anyemotion when the guilty verdict for
the first degree murder wasread in April of 2011, Twichell filed
an appeal for his convictionunder the grounds that the jury did
not remain impartial sincethey were never sequestered.

(56:35):
He also said that his defensedid not adequately represent him.
The last grounds for hisappeal was also very strange.
So generally this is Canada,not America.
So different system, but similar.
Ish.
Yeah.
Generally you can't bring in aperson's character into a crime.
You can't be like, this is abad guy.
So he committed this murder.
Right.

(56:56):
But here he is like, they did that.
They tried to prove that I wasa bad guy, so I committed this murder.
Because when you're thinkingof evidence like this fucking document.
Right.
Or the fact that he wasHaving, like, kind of an Internet
affair with Renee and then arelationship with Tracy and cheating
on his wife.
All this shit.
He seems like a bad fucking guy.
Right?

(57:16):
Right.
So he's like, oh, you did allthat to make people think that I
could.
I'm a person who could do this.
And people looked at theevidence in light of thinking I was
this type of person, which Iactually don't think is relevant
here, because all of thosefacts are relevant because it proves
that that was moreautobiographical than fiction.

(57:37):
Because the names werematching, symbols were matching up,
like it was overlapping somuch that they had to bring in those
facts so that they could provethat this was real, not just writing.
Yeah.
He later withdrew his appeal.
Good.
Yeah.
Steve Lille Booin wrote a bookabout this case as well as his letters
and interactions with Twichell.

(57:58):
In one of his letters,Twichell said, I killed John Atlinger
in a horrific accident of self defense.
After cursorily shoving asidemy human sensibilities, I dealt with
his remains in a disrespectfulmanner that traumatized me forever.
I don't buy any of this.
Nope.
Lila Boohan said that he didnot believe that this was true and

(58:19):
that he sold his rights to thebook so that it may be made into
a movie.
I also don't believe thatstatement because, again, you don't
write joyfully over somethingyou feel bad about.
Right.
And just to mention this,Steve was writing to Twitchell when
he was behind bars, like, toget information for his book.
So it's not like they kneweach other beforehand.
He was just writing a book.
Yeah.
And Liliboon learned veryquickly that, not surprisingly, Twitchel

(58:43):
preferred to talk and interactvia letter rather than interviews
or phone calls.
And he was like, if you'regoing to write my story, you might
as well hear it from me.
Oh, yeah.
He was like, I still need more attention.
So Michael C.
Hall, who plays Dexter, wasasked about Twitchell and said that
he was horrified that hischaracter could have inspired someone.
Twitchell later insisted thathis crimes were not inspired by Dexter,

(59:06):
but, like, he was a fan.
And there's a lot of overlap,so I don't know where he would come
up with this otherwise.
Before we were recording,Amanda and I were also talking about
how it looks as though he eventried to mimic some of the haircut
and expressions that Dexterwould do in photos.
Yeah, in the photo that comesup, like, first when you search his
name, it's him with his camera.

(59:28):
And, like, he gives Dextervibes just looking at that picture.
Yeah.
And not in a good way.
No, no.
He's like, just trying to be him.
Yeah.
So in 2017, Twitchell wasallowed to go on an online dating
website for inmates.
Seems bizarre to me,especially because that's the way
that he lured his victims.
So they're like, yeah, goahead, do what you were doing as

(59:48):
you were getting ready to kill people.
Okay.
On the site, there was basicinformation, like his name, the penitentiary
that he was in, mailingaddress, his birthday, as well as
what he was convicted of,murder, and what he was interested
in, talking to women.
His profile said, prepare tothrow up in your mouth.
Just prepare to throw up rightin your mouth.
Amanda, can I ask you a question?

(01:00:09):
Yeah.
Will you read this like youthink he wants people to read it?
Yes.
So his profile said, quote, Iwas tentative about reaching out
because I thought I couldn'toffer much and doubted anyone could
look past my reputation to see.
The human being perfect.
But trying is definitelyworthwhile if it means finding just
one meaningful, mutuallyfulfilling friendship.

(01:00:29):
No one wants to be yourfriend, dude.
No one.
My crime doesn't define who Iam or represent me at all.
Yes, it does.
I've made some terrible,regrettable choices in the past,
and I've come to terms withthe consequences.
It sounds like he's talkingabout drinking an expired protein
shake.
These aren't regrettable choices.
These are awful fucking things.

(01:00:51):
Now I seek to infuse purposeinto my life.
Connection is a huge part of that.
My creative engine.
I can't even say it with astraight face.
I fucking know.
I know.
My creative engine neverslows, so I produce artwork constantly
and craft novels orscreenplays to manifest my relentless
imagination.
Relentless imagination.
Dude, like, he copied so much,they should almost sue him for copyright

(01:01:16):
somehow.
Oh, it gets so much worse, too.
It just.
It continues to get worse.
It's hard to say.
I know I'm insightful,passionate, and philosophical, with
a great sense of humor.
I enjoy tennis, chess, andclever storytelling.
I love that he said clever storytelling.
Like, you're not.
Yeah, you just change thefirst letters of people's names.

(01:01:37):
Yeah.
I love the rain and the musicand the music of artists like Sia,
Jackie and Vancho and Arcade Fire.
I mean, I do like Arcade Fire.
If I was Sia, Jackie, Avanjo,or Arcade Fire, I'd be like, keep
my name out of your mouth.
Right.
I'm looking for aninteresting, intelligent, open minded,

(01:01:58):
delightfully imperfect womanto relate to and share amusing observations
with, as well as a potentiallylong weekend every few months.
If it gets there Naturally, I also.
Just as a note, I wanted toknow what Jackie Avancho sounded
like.
And she has a stunning voice.
The instrumental kind ofsounds like a movie score, like the

(01:02:19):
way that it builds, but it iskind of like an opera.
And like if you were a mantrying to convince women that you
cared about women's feelings,I think that you would be like, I
like Jackie Avancho.
Ah, okay.
So that was his angle.
Yeah, I think so.
I think so.
Again, she's fantastic.
I mean, I don't know anythingabout her.

(01:02:40):
Yeah, I've never heard of her.
But you know what I've justlistened to.
I don't know how she is as ahuman, but her voice is beautiful.
Yeah, it is, it is.
But I do think that he is,like, trying to appeal to women.
Yes, yes.
And I want to punch himstraight in the throat.
Of course he deserves it.
I mean, not like I didn't wantto before, but after this, I'm like,
mm, mm.

(01:03:01):
And so just to describe thiswebsite, because, you know, we said
it was like an inmate datingsite, they can't actually interact
on the site.
So remember how I said it hadlike his address and like where he
was being housed?
The person that read theprofile and for some reason would
be interested in him, incommunicating with him.
They would send a letter to him.
And the way that the profileis set up for the person is they

(01:03:23):
fill out a hard copyapplication and then send it in and
then the site owner puts it up there.
The owner of the website,Melissa Fazina, said that she had
never rejected anyone'srequest to be part of the site when
interviewed about it.
She also noted that while someare in romantic relationships because
of the site, there are alsopeople who have found long lost relatives

(01:03:44):
and have been able toreconnect with them.
It is a bizarre site.
It does look like a geocitiesesque website.
It really does.
Because we've brought up thesite and you can bring it up at home.
Like it's.
It's interesting.
It's Canadian inmates connect.com.
It is a dating site.
It is very clear about thatpartially by the fact that when you
click the first set ofpictures, there's a guy showing his

(01:04:06):
abs, their dating profile kindof photos in there.
But what's interesting is thatit shows you the crime.
And as I was scrolling, it wasmurder, murder, murder, murder, murder,
murder, murder, murder, murder.
And I was like, I don't love.
This is scary.
Yeah, it is scary because,yeah, they have like their photos
in it and Then they're alittle, like, blurb bizarre.
But a lot of people are, like,into this.

(01:04:28):
Like, when I know serialkillers go to prison and stuff.
Like, oh, it's disgusting.
Yeah.
Now, I will say we looked atthe website, and I don't believe
his profile is up anymore.
So he's not on there.
That's good.
That's good.
We also saw other articleswhere people were saying that they
had a problem with, like, aperson who committed a crime against
a member of their family.

(01:04:49):
And they're like, and nowthey're on a fucking dating website.
Can I fucking help you?
No.
Valid.
So one of the things thatreally stuck with us about this case
we haven't mentioned yet, butit is that when John's friends were
talking to law enforcement,they were very clear.
And they said, if John hadn'tsent those directions to you and
you hadn't shared them withus, we don't know if we ever would

(01:05:12):
have figured out what happenedto John.
That's sad.
And it is so terrifying tothink that in a situation where there
is this much physical evidenceand digital evidence and just so
many what the fucks.
That it is possible thatTwitchell may not have been caught.
That fucks me up.

(01:05:32):
It does.
And many people, including us,think that if Twitchell had not been
caught, he would havecontinued to kill.
For sure that he wasn't aserial killer yet I think he absolutely
would have continued.
Agreed.
So as we said earlier, he wassentenced to life in prison, but
he could apply for paroleafter 25 years.
That would be 2036.
That feels way too soon.

(01:05:54):
It does.
Yeah.
I thought that this was areally interesting case as we started
to research it, because it isthe worst fear.
You're murdered, and thenpeople don't know what happened to
you.
And what if you aren't in asituation where you told your friends,
gilles came so close that it'sjust so scary to me, it is.
And that's kind of a goodthing to think about too.

(01:06:14):
If you're going somewhere, ifyou're meeting someone to purchase
something online or whatever,always send someone where you're
going when you're estimated tobe there.
And then when you leave, callthem and let them know that you know
your actual voice.
Yeah.
Hey, everything's good.
I'm heading here or something.
I know, like, I brought it up.
I train dogs, so I'm a personthat will be in various places.

(01:06:35):
And every time, like, that'sthe rule of thumb is, like, I say
where I'm going.
How long.
I intend to be there, that Igot there.
And I normally send like atext with a, a certain word or something
to show like, hey, we're all good.
Have a secret word.
Yeah.
And if you are a person thatdoesn't have somebody in your life
that you can send thatinformation to, one, you could always

(01:06:57):
have a ledger at your own homethat lists the places where you're
going.
You could two, have itdigitally, have it in your calendar,
the address of where you're going.
Put it someplace so that ifsomething happens, you know, because
I'm like, what if a persondoesn't have a lot of close friends
or somebody who they.
Yeah, who's gonna, who wantsthat information?
Right.
Or say you're going on a firstdate and you don't want your friends

(01:07:17):
to ask a thousand questions.
You can also say, hey, I don'twant to talk about it.
I don't want to get into it,but I want to stay safe.
Here's what you need to know.
Yep.
Agreed.
It's sad that you have tothink that way, but it's true.
It is sad to think that way.
If there's any updates to thiscase, we will include them in our
True Crime Digest episodes.
And with that, have a great weekend.

(01:07:38):
Thanks for creeping with us.
Thanks for listening and asalways, a special thank you to our
patrons who support us via Patreon.
Please see the link in ourshow notes to learn more about how
you yes, you can begin tohaunt the dump guard vortexes or
even become a scorching Sasquatch.
Also in our show notes, youcan find the link to our website,

(01:08:00):
more information on oursources, our social media handles
and our merch store.
We'd love for you to keepcreeping with us, so if you like
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