The Disappearance and Murder of Emmishae Kirby

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
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(00:24):
Listener discretion is advised.
Hello, everyone.
Today we are going to bediscussing the disappearance and
murder of Emma Shay, Brianna Kirby.
And originally, we found herstory while we were looking at possible
victims of the Texas KillingFields, which is a series that we're

(00:45):
still working on because,unfortunately, there's been a lot
of people added to that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because we started it in 2020,and it's wild to me that that was
five years ago, by the way.
That is shocking to me.
Yeah.
But so we started that in2020, which means we have five years
of people, plus there's moreinformation about other people from

(01:07):
different decades.
So a lot more to do for theTexas Killing Fields episodes.
Yes.
So we've been working on thata lot.
Yes.
And as we were reviewing someof the people there, we stumbled
upon Emma Shay's story.
And although her story istechnically outside of the area,
we.
We thought it was an importantone to cover.
Yeah.

(01:27):
And just a note.
I am fighting a cold, so Imight sound a little funky.
So we're gonna just jump rightinto her story today.
So Emma Shay actually went byEmmy, by all of her friends and family.
She was 29 when she wentmissing on September 18th of 2020.
As always, we want to start bytelling you a little bit about her
instead of only focusing onwhat happened to her.

(01:48):
And she seemed like such acool person.
Yeah, she did.
Emmy was born on January 6thof 1991 to her parents, Angelique
Hughes and Emmett Kirby.
Now, Emmett did later marryCrystal Kirby, so that would have
been Emmy's stepmother.
She lived in Houston, Texas,and she was working as a substitute
teacher, and she also taughtan English class for Chinese students.

(02:10):
And now going back to when shedisappeared in 2020, it was during
COVID So sometimes she wouldhave in person teaching, while others,
she would do it remotely.
Yeah.
Which I was like, that's.
It's interesting to talk aboutcases that happened during COVID
too, and we'll talk a littlebit about that later.
But it adds anotherinteresting layer.
Yeah.
There's a Facebook group forEmmy where people post memories and

(02:32):
where folks can also stay upto date in the case.
And everyone had just suchwonderful Things to say about her.
They said she was kind, encouraging.
And one person said she was agood friend.
That always helped them seethe bright side.
So it sounds like she was justlike a light, you know?
You know, just a good personto have in your life.
Before she was a teacher, sheworked as a server.

(02:52):
And many people who had workedwith her had said that she just made
their days better.
And they shared stories aboutworking with her.
She seemed to be this lovelyhuman who was a joy to be around
and was very outgoing.
Yeah.
So Emmy loved her family, herfur babies, and animals in general.
And then she also loved Rihanna.
Good food and a goodconspiracy theory, which, same.

(03:13):
Right.
Like, I feel like we couldhave been friends with her.
We had so many things in common.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, I would hang out with her.
So Emmy's dad said that heused to tease her about her dogs
being her babies because shetreated them so well, which, again,
she is our people.
Yep.
She even threw a full blownbirthday party for one of her dogs.
There were snacks anddecorations and little dogs and hats.
And there was, like, guests.

(03:34):
And the all the other, like,little dog guests made paw print
crafts, which, like, ugh, it'sthe cutest fucking thing.
And we watched this, like,adorable video with it, which just,
like, the sweetest thing.
And she was also best friendswith her sister and loved her nephew.
So a treasure, a delight, awonderful human.
Yeah.
She seemed just all around tobe such a good person.

(03:56):
Yeah.
So while we were looking atthe Facebook group, we stumbled upon
a story, and I just absolutelyloved it from one of her neighbors.
I thought it was just so cute.
So her neighbor had daughters,and they would go to Emmy's door
each day, and then her dogwould bark and let her know, you
know, it's time for a walk.
And then she would take herdog for a walk with the neighbor's

(04:17):
kids.
And so after they were done onthe walk, Emmy would always go back
to their door, drop them offbefore going home.
And she just seemed like asweet person and the kids just loved
her.
It also says something whenyour neighbors trust you with their
kids.
Right.
Like, yes, you're that good ofa person where, like, you might not
be family, but they trust youand they know you and you're around
and you're out.

(04:37):
Because especially, like,nowadays, people don't really know
their neighbors.
No.
No.
And, like, the fact that kidsare, like, waiting for her every
day, like, oh, it's time forour walk.
Looks so cute.
Yeah.
And they know that she's,like, Even though she doesn't have
kids, she's an adult who'skind and will walk with them and,
you know, she's a safe person.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The neighbor also shared thather nine year old daughter thought

(04:59):
that they were around the sameage because she was taller than Emi.
That is so fucking cute.
EMI's only 4:9, so, like, howcute and sweet is that?
Yeah.
So another thing that theneighbor mentioned is that Emmy usually
didn't like wearing shoes.
And so during her walk, shewould not wear them.
And her dad even brought it upin one of the interviews too.

(05:20):
Like, that's what she wasknown for.
She liked to be like one withthe earth.
Okay.
And not put a barrier between it.
And I'm like, I love thatbecause if I don't have to wear shoes,
like, yes, please.
I don't live in a place thatthat's allowed, you know, because
it's 10,000 degrees.
But like, one day when I havegrass, like, I want to be like Emmy.
One day.
One day.
One day.
So this breaks my heart.

(05:41):
Sadly.
The kids first thought thatshe moved without saying goodbye
because when they were goingto her door, she wasn't answering.
Another thing we're going tomention later is that she was prepping
to move, which was supposed tohappen shortly after her disappearance.
And then the poor kids saw amissing person flyer and that's when
they told their mom that theirfriend Emmy was on the poster.

(06:02):
Oh, I hate that.
But I can also see, like, whenyou're thinking of finding someone,
you're not ne.
You don't know everybody intheir life and everybody who's impacted.
So, like, of course her familywasn't going around telling every
single person she interactedwith because everybody has like these
tiny little things in theirlife where maybe their family doesn't
know about it.
You know what I mean?
Where it's like, it's animportant fact, but it's not like

(06:23):
every single person could be alerted.
Yeah.
And you don't know what theimpact is, you know, that a small
little interaction every daycould leave on another family, you
know?
Yeah.
So the last time they hadwalked together, Emmy had told them,
I'll see you tomorrow.
And then they never saw eachother again.
So that just broke my heart.
Yeah.
So in the group, her familyalso shared a memorial poster for

(06:45):
her.
And it was for her celebrationof life.
And I just thought it was likeone of the most unique ones that
I've seen.
And it like totally capturedhow fun, loving and just how much
her family Loves her andmisses her.
Yeah.
And the way that they made itis her celebration of life was held
at a drive in.
And.
And so it's made like a movie poster.
And it's just.

(07:05):
It's so cute.
It's so unique.
And thinking about it, theyprobably held it at the drive in
because it was 2020 and it waseasier for everyone to stay separated
but also still, like, have anevent together.
Yeah.
And they could have, like,photos and videos and stuff.
Right, right.
So they had like a little, Idon't know, like Google Drive or
something that people weresubmitting their photos and videos

(07:26):
before it so that they couldput them all together and then enjoy
sharing with one another.
I love it.
So just thinking about thattime too.
Things were definitely muchharder that year.
Right.
In so many different ways.
And so everything, including,you know, someone disappearing, looked
a little different.
Yes.
Yes.
And so we said that it was2020, but Emmy went missing on September

(07:48):
18th of 2020.
The last place she was knownto be was at her apartment in West
Houston, near Derry ashfordand the i10 West.
Her sister's dog, Panda, wasalso on some of the missing persons
flyers.
And that's because she hadtaken Panda to watch him around two
weeks before she had disappeared.
And she also had her own dogs,which were in her apartment, but

(08:10):
Panda was missing and all ofthe dogs.
So there's three dogs,including Panda, got along well.
And it's so sweet because thereason she had Panda was because
she was trying to help hersister, who had a little one at home.
She was like, oh, I can takePanda off your plate for a little
while.
So that Panda's gettingattention and stuff.
Yeah, yeah.
Panda's leash and harness werestill in the home, but he was gone.

(08:31):
So Emmy's sister Jaleesa saidthat Panda was overall good with
people, but if there wassomeone who he didn't know or there
was a situation where, like, aperson who he loved was in danger,
it's possible that he would bite.
So it's very possible that ifEmmy was being attacked, he would
have bitten someone andattacked them to protect her.
Yeah.
And also as a note that whenshe would walk the three dogs, she

(08:54):
would walk all of themtogether, which is fcking wild to
me.
Whenever I see someone walkingmore than one dog, I'm like, how
can you do this?
But, like, she would walk allof them together.
So it's not as though she wentmissing with all of the dogs.
It would have been strange ifshe went out just with Panda.
Yeah, yeah.
So in an interview with Emmy'sfather, Emmett, that we mentioned
earlier, when they went intoher home, her two dogs were in there.

(09:17):
But one of the things that wasstrange was that their food and water
bowls were not as she kept them.
And from what we couldunderstand, it seemed like they.
They still had food in their bowl.
And most people know how dogseat, right?
My parents watch Moo all ofthe time, so they, like, know her
eating habits.
They would.
They would know what wasstrange for her.
And for Emmy's dogs, theytypically ate their food right away.

(09:37):
It's a three dog household.
You got to eat your food ifyou want to eat it, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they hadn't eaten.
Poor babies.
Yeah.
And that's strange.
That's the first thing Inotice when something's wrong.
Right.
Like, especially with ourdogs, too.
Like something bad happened orsomething's wrong with them if they
don't eat their meal.
Oh, Moo is a princess and justsometimes decides she's simply not

(09:58):
eating on.
On a whim.
She's like, I'm not.
I will not be engaging in this today.
We have this, like, I forgetthe name of it.
It's like chow powder,something like that.
It's this, like, sprinklethat's all these vegetables and shit
and good things for dogs thatare cooked and made into this powder.
And we call it her sprinkles.
Is that the one that she brokeinto and ate it all one day when
we were recording?

(10:19):
Yes, she did.
Yes, she did.
She could smell it through thepackage, through an envelope that
was sitting on the couch, andshe ate the entire package.
Reached out to the companythat made it.
They were like, that's fine.
It's just that she ate thewhole thing.
And I was like, well, at leastthat's an advertisement for you that,
like, she.
Because she's a picky eater.
So for her to be like, I'mgonna rip this bitch open and just

(10:41):
eat this powder.
That's a dry snack.
But anyway, all that to sayMoo is picky.
It wouldn't be strange if shedidn't eat.
But for dogs that, you know,that they eat all their food, that
is strange.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Also another strange thing andanother red flag for them was that
Emmy hadn't spoken with herparents in a few days or her sister
Jaleesa.
And typically she was talkingto Jaleesa every day.

(11:04):
So not hearing from her wasvery strange.
And again, in addition to herjust generally talking to Jaleesa
every day and being close withher Family.
She was in the process ofmoving and they were helping her.
So she was keeping themupdated on, like, her progress and
what she would need.
So it was strange they didn'thear from her.
Extra, like, with a littlecherry on top.
It was bizarre.
Yeah.
And, like, I believe it washer dad that was going to help her

(11:27):
move when it was time to move.
So he thought it was weirdthat she hadn't reached out, you
know, to plan, like, oh, I'llsee you this day at this time, or,
you know, anything like that.
Yes, exactly.
And her phone and wallet werealso not found in her home.
So another red flag.
Also weird.
Yeah.
Now, just like so many otherfamilies that we've talked about,
her friends, her family,everyone that knew her did everything

(11:49):
they could to help find her.
They did interviews, theyinterviewed neighbors, they passed
out flyers, they organizedflyer distributions and worked with
Texas Equisearch.
As a reminder, TexasEquisearch is run by our favorite
Tim Miller.
And just for those thathaven't heard the other Texas Killing
Fields episodes, he made ithis mission to help families that

(12:11):
were going through similarexperiences that he and his family
had gone.
Gone through when hisdaughter, Laura Miller was kidnapped
and murdered in 1984.
He is such a good human.
Amanda and I have mentionedthis before, but we don't talk.
I mean, I don't know.
Have we.
How often have we talked about it?
I don't know.
But we originally recorded ourTexas Killing Fields episodes first.

(12:32):
That was actually our plan wasto release those episodes as our
very first episodes.
And we struggled with a littlebit on, like, how to really cover
that many cases.
But one of the things that wasfrom the beginning of True Creeps
was a love for Tim Miller.
Like, from the very beginningof us.
We've always loved that he wasable to take the worst thing that
ever happened to him andtransform that into a way to love

(12:57):
and to, like, help otherpeople and to try to affect change,
which there is no right orwrong way to grieve, within reason,
obviously.
But, like, the fact that hewas able to do that, I think is just
so incredibly powerful and beautiful.
Yes.
Yes.
And I believe, too, at leastaccording to the site for them, he
still assists with all thesearches that he can.
Yeah.

(13:17):
He's doing so much still.
So just such a cool person.
Yeah.
So during all of this, Right.
They're.
They're doing what they can,and I can't even imagine trying to
gather people for flyerdistribution during 2020, you know,
so they're not only dealingwith the Worst thing that's ever
happened to them.
But they're dealing with avirus that makes it hard to have

(13:39):
people assemble.
Exactly.
So I just feel for this familyso much.
Also.
I was watching, you know,certain interviews with her family,
and some of them had to bedone remotely, which, like, trying
to stay relevant and, youknow, get the name out there while
doing it from home orsometimes in a car.
Just so much extra stress.

(13:59):
Well, if you're thinking inSeptember, we were all really just
learning how to exist in thisnew world, and people were often
in their own bubbles and notso aware of news and things like
that, Especially local news.
Yeah, I would imagine it wouldhave been just so incredibly hard.
Yes, yes.
So then a couple weeks aftergoing missing, on October 3rd of

(14:21):
2020, Emmy's body was found inthe Bear Creek park area in a field
that was about six miles fromher home.
The medical examiner's reportstated that the manner of death was
a homicide.
She had been strangled andshot in the head.
Now, as we talked about TimMiller, Texas Equisearch searchers
were the ones to actually findher, which is heartbreaking.

(14:42):
Yeah.
Javon Gilbert, who was her exboyfriend, was arrested for her murder
on January 20th of 2021.
And his charges were murderand tampering with evidence.
And the evidence,unfortunately, was her body.
So we were able to find someof the details that came out during
the investigation and theprobable cause hearing related to

(15:03):
Gilbert's arrest.
And many of these details wereobtained by investigators through
cell phone records,surveillance videos, financial records,
as well as witness statements.
Gilbert and Emmy were livingtogether up until the month of her
disappearance, September of 2020.
They had broken up becauseEmmy had accused Gilbert of sexually
assaulting her.

(15:24):
There were texts fromSeptember 5th between Emmy and Gilbert
where she said she feltunsafe, and he responded that he
wouldn't harm her.
Sad.
Yeah.
So they shared an apartment,but he moved out.
But afterwards, he then brokeback into the apartment, stood over
her bed with a knife, andrefused to let her go.

(15:45):
This went on for hours.
Can't imagine how scary that was.
I can't imagine waking up tothat, because it's already.
Presumably the place where hesexually assaulted her was her home.
So she probably already felt unsafe.
Yeah.
So to either wake up or toexist in the bed.
Right.
Whether she was sleeping ornot when he was standing over her.

(16:08):
Cause he may have made her gointo that room.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, like, to have to be retraumatized is just so incredibly
sad to me.
Yeah.
Now, to make it even moreterrifying, he had also gone back
several times to her apartmentand peek into her windows.
So I want to say there was awitness that caught him at one point.

(16:28):
Horrible.
Terrifying.
Fucking terrifying.
And then to add to it, Gilbertdidn't deny the texts breaking into
her apartment, anything like that.
And he also admitted that theybroke up because of sexual assault
accusations.
So he's like, not even denying it.
He's like, yeah, that happened.
Now, there was surveillancefootage of him with Emmy on the day

(16:50):
that she disappeared.
To start, he showed upuninvited because he wanted to see
her.
Now there's footage of hergetting into her car with him in
the passenger seat.
And I want to say it's becauseof either receipts or maybe her statements,
but they assumingly went to arestaurant and a gas station before
returning.
Now they returned, and thenauthorities say that he killed her

(17:12):
inside of her apartment.
So they walked back in.
But unfortunately, Emmy wasnever able to walk back out after
they had, you know, arrivedback from the restaurant and gas
station.
He is seen making severaltrips back and forth between her
building and the parking lot.
Then late that night, aroundabout 1.40am, which would have been
the 19th, he's seen carrying alarge item from the direction of

(17:36):
her apartment, sitting it onthe ground between vehicles before
putting that large item intoher car.
And the item appeared to bevery heavy.
So we all believe that thatwas Emmy.
Yeah.
So he's on camera putting theitem into the car, leaving, and then
coming back within the hour.
And then he left her car inthe parking lot, but it was like

(17:57):
on the far side of thecomplex, so.
Shady shit.
Shady, yeah, for sure.
Then on top of that, he's seengoing back and forth between her
apartment and the dumpster,throwing items away, including a
fucking sofa.
A whole ass fucking sofa.
Yes, yes.
So he's like, oh, anythingthat could be used against me, I'm

(18:17):
just gonna get rid of it.
Yeah.
During the investigation,prosecutors said that he made a bunch
of false, misleading statements.
So during interviews and thatsort of thing.
Also, he continued to go toEmmy's apartment after her death
to keep disposing of items.
So I didn't see how many timeshe returned, just that he had returned
several times after she was dead.

(18:39):
I fucking hate it.
Right?
So he was accused ofdestroying evidence related to the
murder, including cellrecords, location records, and financial
records.
So he was really, reallytrying to cover his tracks.
Now, interestingly, I don'tknow why, maybe just to make it seem
like she had been home, Idon't know.
But he did go back sometime onthe 19th and return her debit card.

(19:00):
I'm sure that he realized insome sense that like, if they didn't
find her debit card, theywould be extra suspicious of him
and if they found it on hisperson, extra damning.
Right, right.
So this shed head Gilbert wasultimately sentenced to life in prison
in April of 2023.
But as a just a fucking crazynote, it wasn't for this.

(19:23):
It was for something else that he.
Did that breaks my brainknowing that it wasn't for this.
Yes, like what?
So at the time of the murder,Gilbert was on what's called deferred
adjudication probation forsetting his ex wife's house on fire
while she was inside of it.
Now this happened in 2013 andthe first degree felony of arson

(19:46):
carries a maximum punishmentof life in prison.
And that's what he was charged with.
Which is wild to me because Ijust feel like that would be attempted
murder.
But who am I?
Same.
Yeah.
What the fucking fuck, youknow, I don't know.
Every single jurisdiction'slike penalties for everything.
It could be that attemptedmurder is actually like less of a
maximum punishment.
Right.
Or it could be that, you know,for example, perhaps that in this

(20:10):
situation there was a pleabargain that Gilbert accepted and
he pled guilty.
And in exchange for Gilbertpleading guilty, he was placed on
what we mentioned a second agowas deferred adjudication probation.
And he did not have any prisonsentence associated with his charges.
So the sentencing for thisarson and what seems like attempted

(20:32):
murder to me was only thiseight years of what I'm going to
say dap, because deferredadjudication probation is a very
long fucking title, right?
Yes, yes, but he had eightyears of dap.
And so if you're thinking ofprobation, which you've likely heard
before, probation is anoverall good mechanism.
We want people who have beenconvicted of crimes to theoretically

(20:56):
be able to rejoin society andbe productive members of societies.
If we want our prison systemto be able to reform people as well
as, you know, deter future criminals.
Yeah.
We want to be able to have amechanism for them to go back into,
you know, the fucking world.
And probation is a courtordered period where after a person's
convicted, they have to meetcertain criteria.

(21:16):
They have to basically notfuck up again.
Yes, yes.
And the crime still stays ontheir record.
Right.
It's not like, oh, once yourprobation period's done, you wash
your hands of it.
It's a part of your sentencing.
Exactly.
However, with dap, if youdon't fuck up again by the end of
your probation, the convictionleaves your fucking record.

(21:38):
So had he not like fucked upagain, he would not have a record
for arson.
That's crazy to me.
For setting someone's fuckinghouse on fire while they were inside
of it.
And while I can understandthat we want people to reenter society,
I just think that there is abenefit to knowing when a person
does that.
I cannot understand howsomeone who caused this much personal

(22:00):
trauma and property damagecould only could receive eight years
of probation.
That breaks my brain.
I'm mad about it because whatthe literal fuck?
Because when someone showsthat they are willing to hurt their
fucking partner, who won't you hurt?
Exactly, exactly.
So, okay, they basically fileda motion in the original case for

(22:24):
arson, basically saying that,like, hey, you had probation, you
up again during this, and weproved it.
Now you have to be resentenced.
And there was a four dayhearing to basically figure out his
guilt for this.
And Gilbert was sentenced tolife on this rehearing for that original
case.
And so they ended updismissing the complaint for her

(22:47):
murder and that evidencetampering because they could combine
it into the first case andsentence him to life in prison for
that case.
So murdering Emmy was a new crime.
And when he committed thatcrime, he violated his original parole.
So rather than redoing anentire case, they opened the first
one and said, hey, he violatedhis parole.

(23:09):
We have proved it in this hearing.
And then he was sentenced tolife in prison.
He appealed this, but was unsuccessful.
Thankfully.
Thankfully, yes.
Which like, fucking fuck, right?
And I mean, it's good thatthey were able to add Emmy essentially
to that hearing too, you know,and go, here's the proof that we
have.
Here's what he did.
Like, it's not a normalviolation of parole.

(23:31):
This is like the worst way toviolate parole.
And so it's good that thejudge was able to hear what he did
and then go, okay, yeah, heneeds whatever we can give him for
this original one.
Yeah, like, he should be in prison.
Yeah.
But I feel bad for her familybecause, like, I see that, you know,
they got justice and they'rehappy that they got justice.
But also it's like.
But he had already fucked up.
It's not because what he didto Emmy, in a way, you know, but

(23:54):
like, on paper it's not.
But it is like.
But it also is like he alsojust should have never been out.
Right.
Like, he should, like heshould have been in trouble.
Yeah.
From.
He should have like gotten anactual penalty for that.
First fucking crime, right?
Right.
And it breaks my heart that hewas even allowed out and was able
to do this to her.
So knowing that he had acriminal history, right, like, we

(24:16):
knew that he got in troublefor arson, we took a look at some
of his other criminal history,and this is what we were able to
find.
There could be some in othercounties, but at least for the Same
county, in 2010, he got introuble for child endangerment to
his own fucking kid.
So he had a daughter, andsupposedly what happened is he accidentally

(24:38):
dropped her while sitting inthe passenger seat and reaching for
something in back.
I want to say it was like, abottle or something.
Now, the poor baby had a headinjury, and she ended up going to
the hospital for head trauma.
And, like, we know babies aresuper fragile, right?
And Mo, I would say mostdoctors are versed to be like, okay,
this is a standard baby issue, right?
Like, babies do hurtthemselves, right?

(25:00):
Like, you have to be super cautious.
But, like, this seemed different.
So it seems strange that hewas even able to drop her, at least
in my opinion, because thinkabout it.
If you're sitting in a car, right?
You have the dashboard infront of you, and you're holding
a baby, I don't know why he'sdoing this in the first place, but
her falling just seems reallyhard to do.

(25:20):
If you're sitting in thatpassenger seat.
Why were you holding a baby inyour arms?
Yeah.
Why wasn't the baby in a car seat?
Who could know?
Right?
Like, that's so weird.
And from his story, from whatI understand is he dropped her accidentally
while reaching him back.
But, like, yeah, why was heholding a baby while sitting in the
passenger seat?
And then if you're reaching inback, I just.
I feel like you'd be more cautious.

(25:40):
But also, if you dropped her,theoretically, she should have been
just, like, right on your lap.
Like, it's weird that sherolled off into, you know, underneath
the dashboard.
Like, I don't understand howthat happened, but I don't trust
him.
Obviously, cars have hardthings in them, but not, like, not
that hard.
Right?
Not accidental fall, crack a skull.
It's bizarre.

(26:01):
It doesn't make sense.
I can't picture that scene,and I'm surprised that there weren't
more questions around it.
Yeah.
Then let's go on.
With his criminal record in2011, some of the documents aren't
available anymore, but he wascharged with evading arrest.
Then again, he got in troublein 2011 for resisting arrest.
And then this next one, I wantto note, because I feel like there's

(26:24):
a tie.
Okay.
So the records for this arerestricted, but it looks like divorce
was originally filed on June5th of 2013.
Okay.
Then on November 29th of 2013,just like kind of what he did with
Emmy, the relationship endedand then it resulted in violence
on November 29, 2013.

(26:44):
That's when he escalated with her.
And that's where, you know,those arson charges came from.
Yeah.
And we say escalated becauseI'm, I'm just going to go out on
a limb here and perhaps inferfrom the situations that there was
a reason why they were getting divorced.
Yes, yes, there's a reason whythey're getting divorced.
And then the day after.
So after the arson, his exwife got an order of protection against

(27:07):
him.
Yeah.
Imagine having, you know, kidsand being that scared.
That makes me feel for her so much.
So clearly this guy's historyshows a bit of a pattern.
Right.
And it.
Unfortunately, it's unknown ifEmmy knew this background or not.
What if he wasn't truthfulwith her and she had no idea like
that?
That just hurts my heart for her.

(27:28):
Yeah.
So we wanted to take a momentto talk about violence against women
in this, in this regard, whenit comes to domestic violence in
particular.
But in a report that came outin 2021, the United Nations Office
on Drugs and Crime said thatin 2020, 47,000 women and girls worldwide
were killed by their intimatepartners or other family members.

(27:49):
This means that on average in2020, a woman or girl was killed
by someone she knew every 11 minutes.
I have no words for that.
That's such a hard thing toprocess because, like, we know it's
not fucking Good, but every 11 minutes.
Yeah.
You know, Amanda and I havebeen recording for over an hour.
So that means that at leastsix women would have been murdered

(28:11):
in the time that it took forus to record this.
That's unacceptable.
It is.
In North America, the numberof women killed by intimate partners
or family members went up byaround 8% compared to worldwide averages.
In the US we have a nationaldomestic violence hotline and its
website has a ton of resources.
We'll have it in our shownotes, but it's 800-799-SAFE or 800-799-7233.

(28:35):
They also have lots ofresources that can help you, help
people who are going through it.
Yeah.
And I, I found it interestingjust to read it anyways, like to
be prepared.
Yes.
Yes.
So we don't know whether Emmyknew his background or not, but I
just want to talk For a fewminutes about.
We do not have a system inplace in our country.

(28:56):
From what I am aware of,anywhere where when a woman feels
unsafe or harassed or stalked,where she's really taken seriously,
typically they are looking forphysical marks of violence that you
can kind of prove were fromthis other person.
And anything short of thatdoesn't count for law enforcement.
So, like, if you're thinkingof the situation where Emmy is in

(29:18):
her bed and she's stuck thereand someone's holding a knife over
her, if he was on theapartment lease, then he was not
trespassing.
And then unless she has acamera, there's no proof of what
happened.
Well, that.
And let's say she did know the background.
What if, you know, heconvinced her that he changed?
She already had known then atthat point that no one gave a fuck
when he tried to kill his exwife via arson.

(29:39):
Right?
Yeah.
So like, either way, poor Emmywas like, just in the worst spot
ever.
Yeah.
I think that when people thinkof domestic violence victims, they
have this idea of like a womanwho is weak or a woman who is not
strong or a woman who is not empowered.
And I would just so thoroughlyask you to pause and reevaluate that
because cycles of abuse arecalled cycles of abuse for a reason.

(30:02):
Most of the time, you don'tstart off a relationship with someone
with them being a shitbird.
They get there after.
Yeah.
And in that time between thebeginning and then becoming a shipbird,
they were likely, at somepoint, wonderful.
And while seemingly beingwonderful, tore you down little by
little by little by little.
And I'm not gonna get into toomuch detail, but like, my previous

(30:25):
partner tried to kill me andthey tore me down little by little
by little by little by littleand made me feel like this unlovable
person, Unlovable creature whodid not have a voice and who could
not do anything.
Like I deserved the way theytreated me.
And before they tried to killme, they were abusive in other ways.
And I never saw myself as aperson who would think of myself

(30:48):
as a victim.
And you don't realize it's happening.
I was also isolated because Iwas in Florida for law school.
So it made things easier forthe person who was hurting me.
And I remember when I broke upwith them, I remember when I believed
they would change and I tookthem back.
I remember feeling scared andknowing I would never not feel scared

(31:11):
around them and breaking upwith them.
And at the time when I brokeup with them, I felt like this certain
sort of liberation.
There was A period of timebefore they were living with me because
I felt like, I can't just kickthis person out.
I don't want to be a terrible person.
Right.
I need for them to be able tohave a place to live.
And in my mind, I was likebeing a kind person, but it also
meant that I was living withmy abuser.

(31:31):
And I did not know that it isthe most unsafe.
Not before the violence andnot during the violence, but after.
In some situations, there'sseveral instances of physical abuse
for other people, but for me,it was just that it was that one
physical, violent interaction.
And in my opinion, I was like,well, the worst happened and then
I broke up with them and nowit's done and I'm.
And I'm safe because I brokeup with them.

(31:53):
Like, I'm going to be okay.
Yeah.
I did not realize that.
That breaking up with them putme in more danger.
And so many women don't knowthat that when you end it, they now
have nothing to lose.
And one, I want people to know that.
But two, I also just want topoint out that just because in my
opinion, law enforcementdoesn't take stalking, harassing,

(32:16):
or abuse, that doesn't leavemarks seriously.
Does it mean that there aren'tthings you can do?
Well, even when there ismarks, though, it's very, very easy
for people to say, oh, I fellor I did this.
And I know that from afriend's personal experience that
they go, oh, okay, like, eventhough it's very clear that someone
did that to them.
Yeah.
They can't do anything ifespecially they're scared to say,

(32:38):
yes, they did it becausethey're not sure if they're going
to be behind bars or ifthey're just going to escalate after.
Exactly, exactly.
But despite law enforcement'sinadequacies here, it's not as though
there's nothing that can be done.
Right.
You can put yourself aroundother people as much as you can.
Don't be alone for that period.
Directly following, right?
Like, if you're gonna.

(32:58):
If you're leaving your abuser,don't do it alone.
You're doing a big, scary thing.
Go to people who love you.
If you don't have people inyour life where you feel comfortable
doing that, go to a domesticviolence shelter.
Most places have one locally,the number that's in our show notes
that we talked about earlier,they can help you find one.
Yeah.
There's a whole area on theirwebsite to plan for safety as well.

(33:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don't be Alone.
Don't gaslight yourself intothinking that everything's going
to be fine because you don'tknow it's going to be fine.
And if it's a situation whereyou don't want to do that, then consider
whether you want to buy alittle cheapy motion detector alarm
for inside your house.
You can buy them for under 20bucks off Amazon, where it just makes
like a wee woo weew sound ifsomeone opens a door in your house.

(33:41):
Something as simple as that.
Because if that person happensto have a key, because sometimes
changing locks, it'sexpensive, right?
If.
If you can afford to do so,figure out another way, you know,
look, put a table in front ofyour door with a pan in it.
You know?
I don't know.
Think outside the box.
Yeah.
It's so easy to be like, I'm safe.
I'm free.
Right?
Like, I'm safe.
I'm gonna be okay.
I'm gonna be fine.

(34:02):
And I.
And I.
I get it.
I get why Emmy probably waslike, I'm gonna be okay.
Because, like, and she's moving.
He's out of my life.
I'm moving.
I did the same thing.
But the idea is, is like,hopefully if you are in this situation
or somebody who you love is inthis situation, it is okay to loudly
heal.
It is okay to ask for help.
And if there is someone inyour life who is not ready to hear

(34:23):
you and they are in thatsituation, you will hate yourself
later if you give up on them now.
You can stay around even ifit's fucking hard.
Yeah, a heavy one.
A heavy one, but an important one.
Yeah.
Emmy's case is devastating.
So devastating.
She didn't deserve this.
And neither did any of thefucking people this asshole hurt.
Exactly.
Yeah.
His own kids, his ex wife.

(34:44):
It continued.
That was a pattern.
And it is sad that, you know,law enforcement didn't recognize
that pattern before somethinghorrific happened.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There were so many times wherehe proved to be a person who maybe
shouldn't be out in the worldnear other people before Emmy's death.
It sucks that that's whatfinally got him in prison, because

(35:08):
could you imagine hearing thatthe person who set your house on
fire while you were in it got probation?
That just makes you feel so angry.
Yes, yes.
And I mean, presumably, wedon't know.
We don't know where his kidswere at that moment or anything,
but there could have been kids present.
It's also like, regardless ofhow you feel about your partner,

(35:29):
one, don't fucking hurt your partner.
If someone doesn't want to bewith you.
Just don't be with them.
There you go.
You don't fucking own them.
But everything else aside, sayyou, like, really don't like your
partner or your ex partner ifyou had kids with them.
At the very least, like, thatis your kid's parent.
Yeah.
So why would you want to makeyour kid lose their parent or have
their parent be hurt?
Like, that's.
That's beyond.

(35:50):
It doesn't make any sense to me.
Selfish and horrific and justso many different things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So again, we've got theresources in our show notes.
Share them, use them.
If you have a friend, maybeyou are just around more, maybe you
show them that you have acouch they could sleep on.
You do?
Yeah.
Woof.
Well, this was.

(36:10):
This was a tough case.
This was a super, super tough case.
Emmy just seemed like thisbeautiful, bright light and this
just wonderful presence in herfamily's life.
And we are so sad for thembecause this was so fucking unfair.
It was in every way.
It should not have happened.
Yeah, yeah.
Our law enforcement should betrained to deal with this kind of
stuff.
This shouldn't be so hard to fix.

(36:30):
No, it shouldn't.
This feels fixable.
It does.
When people talk about policereform, the tagline is defund police.
But really what it is isretrain police, refocus police, reframe
what they're doing.
Because I think that there isa world where we could perhaps have
law enforcement that is trulythere to help people.

(36:51):
Now, we don't know the extentto which Emmy reached out through
the things that she encountered.
Yeah, but if she didn't, whydidn't she?
Right.
I've reached out for things that.
That should have fuckingmattered before, and it didn't fucking
matter.
And I feel like you can't bein a group of three women without
one woman being like, here'show I was stalked and here's how
I was failed by law enforcement.

(37:13):
It's true.
Or here's how I was harassedand it didn't fucking matter.
So we don't know whether shedid or did not, But I could see why
she wouldn't if she hadn't.
Yeah.
And I mean, looking at whatshe was working on, Right.
She was going to move.
That should be safety.
Yeah.
Getting out of that situation.
He won't know where you live.
So again, we don't know thespecifics on that.
But like I said before, like,if she did know his background, then

(37:35):
it's like, why bother?
They're not going to do anything.
About it.
I would feel that way.
I would wonder if he hadinformation about other things that
had happened that wereunrelated that got him on a lesser
charge and that, like, perhapshe was involved with other things.
I don't know.
I'm just assuming he's a,like, not good person.
So I'm assuming he's has othercriminal things that he's doing.
So perhaps there's otherthings that he had knowledge of where

(37:57):
he was and that's why he wasable to plead out and that's why,
like, he looked like he waskind of unfucking touchable until
he wasn't.
Right?
But all that to be said.
Woof.
Yeah, it's.
It's hard to end episodes like this.
It really is.
Were always so upset and madat the situation and like, you know,
we're mad we're strangers.
Her poor family.
Ugh, it just breaks my heart.

(38:17):
I never saw if Panda was found.
So, like, on top of it, youknow, she's trying to do something
nice.
Panda, I don't know.
Her poor dogs, their mom nevercoming home.
Like, ugh, all of it breaks my heart.
I can't imagine losing mysibling and my dog at the same time.
Nope, that would be enough.
Like, losing a sibling is badenough, but losing one of your fur
babies, that's like, you know,a comfort too.

(38:38):
In the same way, I don't evenknow how I would handle that.
As always, if there's casesthat you've heard of that you want
us to cover or topics you wantus to cover, let us know.
As always, we hadn't seen toomuch about Emmy's case.
We thought that this was acase that was good to share and it.
Led to a good conversationthat hopefully will help someone.
Yes, I hope so.
I hope so.
And with that, have a great weekend.

(38:58):
Thanks for creeping with us.
Thanks for listening and asalways, a special thank you to our
patrons who support us via Patreon.
Please see the link in ourshow notes to learn more about how
you yes, you can begin tohaunt the dump, guard vortexes, or
even become a scorching Sasquatch.
Also in our show notes you canfind the link to our website, more

(39:21):
information on our sources,our social media handles, and our
merch store.
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Disappearance and Murder of Emmishae Kirby