The Medical Mystery at Riverside General Hospital: Gloria Ramirez's Story

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Hi, welcome to True Creeps,where the stories are true and the
creeps are real.
We'll cover stories fromgrotesque gore to.
The possibly plausibleparanormal to horrifying history
to tense and terrible truecrime and.
Everything else that goes bumpin the night. We're your hosts, Amanda.
And I'm Lindsay, and we wantyou to join us while we creep.
We cover mature topics.Listener discretion is advised.

(00:29):
Hey, everybody. So todayoriginally we were going to talk
about a few different casesand instances that inspired X Files
episodes. But when we startedlearning about the Gloria Ramirez
case, we were so fascinatedthat we decided to do an entire episode
about it. So if you haven'twatched X Files, you don't need to,
because we're really justtalking about the inspiration behind

(00:51):
episode 24, the ErlenmeyerFlask, which is an interesting and
sad case. We also coveredother X Files related things like
TPAs. We love them. JerseyDevil and the Bermuda Triangle.
Say it right.
Jersey Devil.
I thought I did.
I thought I did.
Thank you. You needed more emphasis.
Yeah. And speaking of JerseyDevil, we do have a new T shirt out

(01:14):
that we are a little bitobsessed with that talks about milking
Cryptids and it does have aJersey Devil on it.
It's perfect.
It is my favorite ever. It ismy favorite design that I've made
for True Creeps ever. I waslike, this is Chef's Kiss. With the
help of Canva, obviously, you know.
Right, of course.
Anyway, so we're going to talkabout Gloria Ramirez's story today.

(01:35):
Yeah. And this was arecommendation, I believe. Yeah.
Yes, this was a recommendationfrom my bestie, Damien. Thank you.
Thank you, Damien. I feel likeI had heard of this case before,
but I hadn't read too muchabout it. I want to say I was watching
like a medical mysteriesepisode on whatever network used
to do all those, like, latenight medical things forever ago.

(01:56):
Yeah, I know vaguely aboutwhat you're talking about, but I
cannot remember the name ofthe show.
No, that was just like whatyou'd put on before you went to sleep.
And it was horrifying. I don'tknow why I did that to myself. But
this case is interesting on somany levels and just incredibly sad.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And just to note too, this isone of the most forensic medical
investigations, so there's alot to look at as far as her, what

(02:19):
was going on, what washappening at the hospital at the
time. Just so many things to investigate.
Yeah.
So again, like Lindsay justsaid, let's talk about Gloria first.
So she was born on January 11,1963 in Riverside, California. And
she did live there most of herlife. Gloria had a 9 year old son
named Angel Arsniega Jr. And a12 year old daughter named Evelyn

(02:41):
Arsinia. And that was from aprevious marriage. So Reverend Brian
Taylor talked about Gloria andhe said that she was a friend to
all, quick to smile and acarefree joker, which I thought was
kind of funny. And she broughtcomfort and joy to others. So she
seemed like a selfless person.Gloria was buried on April 21st of
1994 and died at the age ofonly 31 years old.

(03:04):
That's so young.
It is, it is. Especially whenwe talk about people and I'm like,
they were younger than us.Like they didn't even get to experience
much.
Yeah.
Amazing Grace was her favoritesong and she would often hum it around
the house, so peopleremembered that about her, which
I thought was sweet. Like whenthere's a song that reminds you of
someone and then when you hearit, I don't know, it made me a little
sad.
But it's also kind of likeit's bittersweet, right? Because

(03:26):
that means that every time youhear that song, you'll be like, oh,
yeah.
Mm. I wanna say they werelike, oh, I remember her humming
it, like in her kitchen orsomething. And I'm like, yeah, that
would be a memory that wouldstick around.
Yeah.
Freddie Ochoa, which was herbrother, released three balloons
to symbolize her freedom. Sothat was after she had passed. Gloria's
sister Maggie said, quote, itwas traumatizing to see my sister

(03:47):
laying there, not knowing thecause of her death and seeing the
speculation that she was thecause of these fumes, as if she was
a monster. In reality, she wasa very loving person, so full of
life and willing to give. Andat her funeral, Maggie read a poem
written by Evelyn, which wasGloria's daughter. And it said, roses
are red, violets are blue. Thenext time I find a red rose, it'll

(04:10):
be just for you. When thestars shine, it will remind me of
you.
That's so sweet. I also. Ican't even imagine. Losing your mother
is not good at any age, butbeing like a preteen girl. Girl.
Yeah. That's when you need herthe most.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so my heart just hurts forher and her brother Angel. So let's

(04:30):
talk a bit about whathappened. Devastatingly, Gloria had
cervical cancer. And she hadbeen undergoing treatment for about
six weeks. And it began at theend of 1993, which would have been
just a couple of weeks beforeher 31st birthday, and she learned
after her diagnosis that shehad advanced cervical cancer. But
per her sister Maggie, theyhad told her that it wasn't good,

(04:53):
going to be fatal. So while itwas, like, you know, horrifying that
she had cancer, they thought.
She was going to live.
Like, this wasn't supposed tobe something that ended her life
so young. And she just startedchemo. Now, at the time of her death,
Gloria may have beenunemployed, and some reports say
that she may not have hadhealth insurance, which meant that
this was extra difficult forher because, I mean, even for a person

(05:15):
with the best insurance in theUnited States, cancer treatments
are expensive. Any type oftreatment is expensive, but especially
if you're paying out of pocketfor it. And we didn't see this in
a ton of reputable sources, sothere's not a ton on her financial
background, which is fair. Butit's hard to think that this wouldn't
be a factor in the way thatshe may have been treated when she
got there.
Exactly, exactly. Situationslike this always make me very sad

(05:38):
and angry. Not necessarily inGloria's specific case, but the amount
of people that go bankrupt orhave insane financial hardships over
just being sick, like, it'sdisgusting in our country that that's
a big fear.
Yes.
Especially as, like, peopleget older. It was like, if I get
sick, I'm going to ruin myfamily financially. And that's just

(05:59):
so sad to think everyoneshould have the right to live and
not have to worry that they'regoing to ruin their family if they
get sick.
Absolutely.
And then on social medialately, too, just the amount of gofundmes
that I see on a weekly basisto help someone's kid get treatment,
I mean, it doesn't matter whoit is. But for me, like, especially
when it's a little kid, whereyou're like, you shouldn't be sick,
you shouldn't be hurting. Andlike, the family having to reach

(06:21):
out to strangers to get helpbecause our country won't do it.
Yeah.
It's one of the things thatjust pisses me off more than anything.
Agreed. It's the idea thatthere's an entire industry that is
designed to make people money.Although it's supposed to be for
our health. Right, right. Youpay your premiums and they're like,
well, but fuck you. Like, Iknow that you're paying for this.

(06:41):
I know that this is theservice that you think you're getting,
but we just don't wanna.
Yeah, yeah. They're just goingto deny everything immediately.
And also just Generally, ifyou've ever been to an emergency
room when you were uninsured,you have absolutely felt this, because
unless you are unconscious,they are going to ask you, how are
you going to pay today? Like,that is the first question, right?
It's one of the firstquestions they're going to ask you

(07:02):
is, how are you going to payfor this? And it's like, maybe you
deal with the broken bonefirst. Maybe you deal with, like,
the fact that this person justgot into a car accident. Maybe you
deal with a whole bunch ofother things before you worry about
that.
So fucking stupid. I hate thisplace anyways.
It's fucking wild. It's. It'sfucking wild. But all that to say
is that we don't know whetherthis impacted anything. And from

(07:23):
what we see, it doesn't seemas though her care was substantially
different from somebody else'swould have been. But it is a factor
just to keep in mind.
Yes. Yes.
So on February 19th of 1994,Gloria told her boyfriend, Johnny
Estrada, that she was havingtrouble breathing. So he called for
an ambulance. She had beenalso throwing up all throughout the
day. Some reports also saythat Gloria had a rapid heartbeat

(07:46):
and a drop in blood pressure.When he called 91 1, he said whatever
was wrong with her seemed tobe escalating, and he asked for them
to bring an ambulance. Duringthe ambulance ride, she's placed
on a monitor, administeredoxygen, and then they started an
iv, which I can't even imaginegetting an IV in an ambulance.
They're very good at what theydo. They are.
They are. And frankly, firstresponders like EMTs, they do not

(08:07):
make enough money.
No. No, they don't.
They should be paid so muchmore for what they do.
Mm. And I think also justremembering that they started an
IV in the ambulance ride, thatwas a big takeaway for me, as we
continue.
Yes.
So by the time Gloria got toRiverside General Hospital, she could
barely answer questions. Shehad a rapid heartbeat, and her blood

(08:30):
pressure was continuing todrop. Hospital staff administered
the standard protocol forGloria's symptoms. From what we saw,
it was Valium Versed.Hopefully I'm saying it right. Ativan,
which was used for sedation.And then they gave her medicine to
lower her heart rate, whichwas lidocaine and bred lium. Some
sources say that when she gotto the hospital, she also vomited.

(08:50):
So they also tried using anAmbu bag to force air into Gloria's
lungs. And this is a bag likemask combo that is similar to mouth
to mouth, but much more sanitary.
Interesting. I'd never heardof that before, but I'm glad that
that exists.
Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately,nothing was working. We also saw
that they may have tried tosedate Gloria at one point using

(09:10):
diazepam, miazolopam, andlorazepam. Again, they didn't specify
every single thing. This isjust some of the things that we've
seen. Yes. But like everythingelse so far, it seemed like she responded
poorly to the sedatives, andthings were just continuing to escalate
pretty quickly. She then wentinto cardiac arrest when they removed
her shirt to use thedefibrillator. Some medical staff

(09:32):
recalled seeing an oily sheenon her skin.
Hmm.
Some also said that her breathwas both garlicky and fruity.
I cannot imagine what thatsmell would be like. I can imagine
those separately, but like asweet kind of garlic. That sounds.
My brain can't conceptualize it.
Yeah, no, that's. That's verystrange. And it would stick out,

(09:52):
though. You'd remember it. Anurse named Susan Cain noticed a
chemical smell when she drewGloria's blood, which, again, that
would stick out. Right. You'relike, this doesn't seem right.
Yeah. Yeah.
Susan passed the syringe to arespiratory therapist that was assisting,
and her name was MaureenWelch. Susan then leaned over Gloria
to see if she could findanother reason for the ammonia smell.

(10:14):
Because I could see if she waslike, maybe I'm smelling something
on her clothing. Maybe she's,like, got like something in her pocket
that spilled.
Exactly.
I could see being like, let meinspect and see what's going on,
because surely it's not her blood.
Exactly, exactly.
Very fair. So when she passedit over to Maureen Welch, Welch then
handed it to a third yearresident named Dr. Julie Gorchinsky.

(10:36):
And Dr. Gorchinsky looked atthe. The syringe with the blood in
it and noticed that there wereparticles inside that were manila
colored. Strange.
Yeah.
Then Dr. Huberto Ochoa, thedoctor in charge of Gloria's care,
looked at it, and he also sawthe particles. Now, when Susan went
to leave the room, she startedto faint. So she's beginning to faint.

(10:59):
So they grab a gurney and theyput her on it. And as she's going
onto the gurney, she's like,my face is burning. Then Dr. George
Kinski said she started tofeel queasy and lightheaded, and
then she pass. And over thecourse of, like, the next little
bit, she would start shakingintermittently and then would stop
breathing for a few seconds,then regain her breath.
That would have been a veryscary sight. When you're like, you

(11:22):
know, people are there to gethelp and then the help is just having
issues too.
Yeah. Like the doctors aregoing down. I cannot imagine how
scary that would be.
Yeah.
So then Maureen passes out.Maureen would later recall hearing
someone scream. And then thenext thing she remembered was waking
up. And when she did wake up,she couldn't feel her limbs. Terrifying,

(11:44):
right? So other members of themedical staff began to feel weak
but didn't faint. And otherpeople smelled the ammonia smell,
but not everyone did. Dr.Ochoa decided to evacuate the emergency
room, so everyone left exceptthe few staff members who were trying
to save Gloria. So they triedto administer electric shocks and
drugs, but nothing works. Oneof the nurses who had stayed to help

(12:07):
Sally Balderas, began vomitingand she said that her skin was burning
as well. Sadly, Gloria died at8:50pm as an interesting note, the
hospital is very specific thatthere were people who stayed to help
Gloria. That it's not asthough everyone panicked and just
left her in there by herself.Because I think that was one of the
original concerns was thateveryone was so worried about what

(12:29):
was happening that theystopped caring for her. But per Dr.
Ochoa, that was not the case.
Yeah. And I mean, for everymedical professional that I know
personally, I feel like theywould do this the same. Right? Like,
they would be like, no, we'regonna help the patient even if it
is dangerous.
I would also point out that,like, people working in an ER are
not easily shaken.

(12:49):
That's true.
They've seen very traumaticevents where people are getting,
like, coming in from caraccidents and other very scary situations.
So I don't think that theywould be squeamish, you know, or
be like, oh my God, I gottaleave. Right. An average non medical
person might be like, oh, no,there's danger versus someone who's
like, no, I've trained forthis. I've trained to stay calm.

(13:10):
Well, not only that, but a lotof the time in the medical field,
they would be so curious as towhat's going on too. Like, medically,
they'd be like, I need tounderstand this.
Yeah.
And I feel like that'sprobably. I'm no medical professional,
but I feel like that would beme too. As far as, like, no, I need
to know the reason for this.
If you're a person who worksin the medical field, you likely
give a fuck about people. Andknowing that not everybody can smell

(13:33):
it, but some people are havingreactions, I would be really reticent
to leave because I'd be like,but what if I'M a person who could
be okay and could help.
Yes. Yes, that's true. Soafter Gloria passed, her body was
put in a separate room and itwas sealed in a casket. 23 of the
37 people who were working inthe ER experienced symptoms. 5 were

(13:54):
hospitalized for the night,and Sally, who was one of the nurses,
was hospitalized for 10 daysbecause she had irregular breathing.
She couldn't return to workfor months, and she ended up suffering
from abdominal pains andheadaches. Dr. Georginski spent about
two weeks in intensive care,and then when she woke up after she
had fainted, she had musclespasms, shortness of breath, a headache,

(14:17):
numbness in her extremities,hepatitis, pancreatitis, and she
also had aseptic necrosis.This is a super rare condition that
basically attacked the bonesin her knees. Scary. She underwent
surgery and spent months oncrutches. Crutches, which is horrible.
Crutches are the worst. Herdoctors were adamant that this condition

(14:39):
was caused by being exposed totoxins. She ended up suing the hospital
and the coroner because sheand her attorney believed that they
were withholding informationthat was integral for her recovery.
Which I. I can't imagine howscary that situation is where you're
like, no, there's a reason andyou're not telling.
Me because some, like, there'sdiseases that just happen and it's

(15:00):
awful, and it could beenvironmental contaminants or it
could be just shitty luck. Butfrom everything we saw, this wasn't
a thing where you just got itfrom shitty luck. It's that there
was a cause. And it would makesense that this event that affected
lots of people might be it.
Right. Right. Now, a hazmatteam searched the ER to see if they
could find any signs of poisongas, toxins, or any abnormal substances.

(15:25):
Once they concluded that therewasn't anything out of the ordinary,
they put her body into twoplastic bags and then in an airtight
steel container.
So the investigation intoGloria's death and what happened
with the hospital wouldultimately involve 10 local federal
and state agencies assistingto try to figure out just what happened.

(15:47):
They also searched Gloria'shome, but they didn't find anything
that was relevant. Thecounty's hazardous materials squad
provided protective suits forthe first autopsy. And that first
autopsy was six days afterGloria's death. The autopsy was conducted
in a cubicle that wasairtight, and it took about an hour
and a half, during which theytook blood and tissue samples from
Gloria's body, and they alsotook a sample of the air that was

(16:10):
in the body bag.
That's smart.
I think that some of thethings that they tested here are
particularly interestingbecause I would have never even thought
about it. We'll get to more ofthat in a second. But throughout
the research that theyconducted, they found that she had
Tylenol, Lidocaine, codeine,and Tegan in her system. And the
last one was a nauseamedication. But apparently that medication
works by breaking down aminesin the body, which are related to

(16:32):
ammonia. And some think thatthat's why her body smelled like
ammonia, but that wasn'treally a definitive cause.
That's interesting, though.
And if it was, they wouldn'thave continued to search. Right.
If they could, like, findsomething that was absolute right,
for sure. So the coroner wasgetting, not surprisingly, a lot
of pressure, and they decidedto ask for help from other labs.

(16:53):
One of the labs they workedwith was the Forensic Science center
at the Lawrence LivermoreNational Laboratory. This is also,
by the way, just a fascinatinglaboratory if you ever want to hear
about kind of like a sciencewho's who. Definitely take a look
at that. But again, they didtesting on some of the samples. And
in addition to the normal kindof testing, they also tested what
they called the headspace inthe containers. And this is basically

(17:14):
the air above it. So theyweren't just testing, like the blood
in a given petri dish, whathave you, they were testing the air
around it and how it wasaffected by whatever was in there.
And what they had done wasthey would heat the samples that
they used from to roomtemperatures, and then they would
see if vapors were emitted,which would make sense because you

(17:35):
wouldn't see it if her bodywas cold, but at, you know, a living
temperature, it might react differently.
Yeah. And so they werethorough, is what you're saying.
Yeah, they were incrediblythorough, but they didn't find anything
here. In an interview with thelab's director, Brian Andreessen,
he said that he rememberedthinking to himself, how could I
spend so much time and notfind anything? Like. It plagued him.

(17:57):
He really wanted to find ananswer. And we'll talk more about
this lab later on. But alittle over a month later, there
was a second autopsy, and thiswas on March 25th. They found a bizarre
amount of dimethylsulfone inGloria's body. And this is a naturally
occurring substance in thehuman body, but it typically, it
disappears in just about threedays. However, there was six times

(18:20):
the normal amount in Gloria'sbody six weeks after her death. So
she obviously had an excess ofit. Gloria's cause of death was ultimately
listed as heart failure due tokidney failure from her cervical
cancer, which is bizarrebecause her cancer was not supposed
to be fatal.
Exactly.
And, like, when you think ofif your body can't pull out toxins,

(18:41):
horrible things can happen. Soit's not that this couldn't happen.
It's just strange that it did.When they said it wouldn't be fatal,
and you would think that therewould have been signs earlier on
that something was wrong.
Right.
So the coroner also announcedthat they could not find any evidence
of external substances thathave caused or contributed to Gloria's
death. With kind of like anasterisk there that was also. Or

(19:05):
any of the symptoms thatanyone in the hospital experienced.
Because what they're doing isthey're investigating Gloria's death.
But the italicized portionunder that is and also what the fuck
happened in that hospital?Because clearly, there's two things.
There's Gloria's death, whichmay or may not be related to what
happened to the other people,and then there's what's happened
to all the medical staff.
Right, right. And could youimagine all of the families, too?

(19:26):
I mean, Gloria's family, andthen all of the medical professionals,
like, what the fuck ishappening? And waiting. This is the
second autopsy, and they'relike, we still don't know any as
to why any of this happened.That'd be very frustrating.
Exactly.
After Gloria's body wasreleased by court order, Gloria's
family paid for a thirdautopsy. There were conflicting statements

(19:46):
about her cause of death.Officials insisted that she died
of natural causes and did nothave any reason for the odor or the
fainting. Gloria's family hada funeral, and they buried her on
April 21st. Now, just to note,county officials took two months
to release her body for thefuneral because of the toxicity levels,
and they feared that peoplemay faint or pass out. There was

(20:09):
an article in the Los AngelesTimes about the release of her body.
And in the article, Dr.Bradley Gilbert, the Riverside county
public health officer, saidthat scientific and medical experts
have concluded that the bodydoes, quote, not currently present
a public health hazard and canbe handled by the mortuary in preparation
for the burial. And thinkingabout it from her family's perspective,

(20:33):
too, like, waiting on her bodyand then them saying, oh, well, she
could be toxic. So, no, I knowthat it's all about safety, but also
for her poor family, justbeing like, she's my family member.
She's not like this toxicmaterial thing. Yeah, you know, I.
I know that they didn't meanit in that fashion, but it's still
like, I feel like it. It musthave hurt. Right.
I don't think Gloria has anyfault in this whatsoever, even a

(20:55):
little bit at all. But at thetime, they were so worried about
what was going on in thehospital that they weren't really
thinking, this is someone'sdeath. People are grieving.
Yes. This is a family member.
Yeah. Like, this is an actualfucking person.
Yes. And it just. It doesn'tseem that way. But again, I don't
think it was anyone being ahorrible person. It was just. Everyone's

(21:15):
trying to be very careful, buton the other end of it, it seems
really shitty. Yeah. So thecounty health department reached
out to the CaliforniaDepartment of Health and Human Services
to help figure out what thehospital staff had experienced. The
leading investigators were Dr.Ana Maria Osorio and Dr. Kristen
Waller. They began with havingmost of the hospital staff answer

(21:36):
a standardized questionnaire,which, like, okay, makes sense. Pretty
early on, Dr. Waller and Dr.Osario realized that people who had
worked within two feet ofGloria or had dealt with her IV had
experienced the most intensesymptoms. They also found that more
women than men experiencedsymptoms, which I think was interesting.
And then the other thing thatthey noticed is that a lot of the

(21:59):
people who skipped dinner thatnight had the more severe symptoms.
Interesting. I'd also justpoint out that, like, we're talking
1993, obviously there arewomen doctors at that point, but
I would say that I would beshocked if there were more men as
nurses and support staff inthe hospital than men as doctors.

(22:20):
And then alternatively, theopposite for women, that if there
weren't more women as supportstaff and nurses that were coming
in versus being doctors. Doyou see what I'm saying? That, like,
it's. Even still it's, like,more likely to see women as nurses
and support staff in ahospital. So I'm like, okay, did
they also. Just by the. Thenatural progression of what happens

(22:41):
in a hospital, did more womeninteract with her?
Likely. And yeah. I mean, asfar as nurses go, they do a lot of.
Yes.
Like, they do the majority ofit. And the doctors are just like,
yep, you're right.
Yeah, Right.
Like, they have. Have, Ithink, the harder job most of the
time.
Nurses are fucking rock stars. Amazing.
Yes. Yes. So they reallydidn't think that it was related
to the fumes only because ofthe information that they got from,

(23:02):
like, the surveys andeverything. On September 2, they
released their findings. Sowhat they found is that there was
a mass sociogenic illness thatmay have Begun from the unexplained
smell.
Okay, you're telling memedical professionals got. Got a
little scared?
Seems weird.
That's your finding?

(23:23):
Yeah. And they all passed outand stopped breathing and all these
other things.
One person's knee began to,like, attack its bones because they
thought they smelled something funny.
I mean, I hate bad smells, butthat's a little dramatic.
I am very sensitive to smells,but I can guarantee you that I wouldn't
pass out and start vomitingand have, like, my face burn and

(23:45):
not be able to feel myextremities for weeks. Like, that
feels a little at odds withthese things.
Yes. Yes. Especially formedical professionals.
Yes.
I wouldn't think that anyonewould do this, but, like, medical
professionals see and do. Yes.So many strange things all the time
that, like, it's hard tohonestly scare them.
I would think they're used toan array of smells, and the worst

(24:08):
one that they've probablydealt with was probably not ammonia.
Yes. Yes, that too. So Dr.Osorio and Dr. Waller believed this
because women are more likelyto suffer from hysteria than men.
Kindly get fcked. I also verymuch feel like they picked two women
doctors so that they could saythis without it being sexist. And

(24:30):
I'm like, nope, it's stillsexist if you're a woman.
Well, also. And it's wrong.Like, it's just wrong.
It's wrong. Like, it doesn't.It. It defies all logic.
It really does. And the amountof things that women can do that
are insane, and they're justlike, no, no. They're.
They're hysterical.
They.
They smelled something funny,and now they're having their body

(24:54):
attack its own bones. It justdoesn't make any fucking sense. Right,
Right.
So then they pointed out thatno poisons nor toxic substances were
found. And the doctors alsopointed out that there were two paramedics
who had started an IV and hadbeen in close proximity to Gloria
that did not experiencesymptoms. And that's why earlier,
when I was, like, she was inan ambulance, they went through her

(25:17):
skin to start that iv, andeverything seemed normal to them.
Yeah, Right. They were fine.They dropped her off. Everything
was fine. And then it got weird.
Yeah. That is bizarre.
Mm. Mm. Now, if you're angrynow, keep in mind that doctors even
said that three emergency roomworkers were not even interviewed.

(25:37):
Hmm.
And this may have been becausethere was a pending litigation, but
still, like, you want all ofthe information, and they're like,
can't do it with these three.
It also feels like itconveniently omits the most serious
and severe instances thatcould not be attributed to hysteria
or a mass sociogenic illness.

(25:58):
Right.
It omits those from the sampleso they could not come up with a
conclusion that is accurate.
They also said that they hadnot seen raw data from Gloria's autopsy,
or I guess, all three of them.Dr. Gerald Davison, a clinical psychology
professor at UCLA, said,quote, it's like saying the devil

(26:19):
did it when you have no otherexplanation. They have made a diagnosis
by excluding as much aspossible and then jumping to the
assumption that the cause ofthese illnesses was sociogenic.
Exactly. Literally. Exactly.
So at least someone had abrain there.
Yeah. So Amanda mentioned thelawsuits a moment ago. We also talked
about Dr. Jorkinski's earlier.But when this report came out, not

(26:43):
surprisingly, Dr. Jorkinskiwas pissed. That lawsuit that they
had was for $6 million indamages. And Dr. Jychinski told reporters
it's just not right. I thinkit is absurd and ridiculous for a
government agency to come outwith conclusions without reviewing
all of the records. The bonesin both my knees are dead, and they
never even bothered tointerview me.

(27:05):
Ugh, that's so frustrating.
Yeah. And then Dr.Chachinsky's attorney, Russell Kussman,
said, clearly, people werepoisoned by something that night.
This report may be based onpolitics or ignorance, but it's not
based on science. These areall professional emergency room workers.
They don't become hystericalbecause of a heart attack, which

(27:26):
is what Gloria died of. Like,she had a heart attack that was caused
by kidney failure, that wascaused by her cervical cancer. So
two other emergency roomworkers and Gloria's family sued
the hospital. And Gloria'sfamily, part of that suit was because
they said that in her 1991 Papsmear, there was evidence of cancer.
And they didn't tell Gloriathen, which is so heartbreaking.

(27:49):
That's terrifying, honestly.
Yes. Yes. And we couldn't findthe outcome of any of these lawsuits,
which was also very bizarre,which we did a lot of research search,
and could not find how theyended. I would assume that they ended
probably in settlements ifthere's not a ton more about them.
Probably.
So we mentioned therespiratory therapist that was in

(28:11):
the room earlier, MaureenWelch. And Maureen was not pleased
by this report because sheknew, as a person who was in the
room watching all of thishappen, that it was not just hysteria.
So she reached back out tothat lab that we talked about earlier,
and after some convincing,they decided to look at the case
again. It's also worth notingthat she had accumulated like this,
like Massive binder ofinformation. And she was like, no,

(28:34):
look at everything. There hasan answer here. That is not. Yeah,
y'all are dramatic. There'ssomething going on. And, like, she
really pressured them. Andthey were like, okay. And that was
partially because they werelike, look at what she's created.
Well, also, that's demeaningto be like, you're. You were hysteric.
That's why everything happenedto you. And she's like, no, I'm a
fucking professional. Andsomething was weird or off.

(28:57):
Imagine that you are one ofthese medical professionals, right?
And take the lawsuit portionout of it. You are a medical professional,
and the hospital that youworked at and the county and government
agencies, and everybody islike, you're just so dramatic that
you faked these things. Do youthink you're going to have an easy
time finding another job?Probably not.
Well, finding another job orgetting things covered.

(29:19):
Yeah. Yeah. And that's also adifference between, like, your insurance
and workman's comp. And ifthey're fighting about it back and
forth, then no one's paying.Huh. I hate it.
Right. And that's just. That'sjust our thoughts on it. We don't
see any of that. But still,that. That would be very strange.
Yeah. So the assistant deputydirector, Pat Grant, found a possible

(29:39):
cause when he went throughthis massive file and did some more
testing. So he thought thatGloria may have used DMSO cream to
help relieve the pain she wasexperiencing from her cancer. And
he had actually used that DMSOcream himself when he was an athlete,
when he was in college. So hewas familiar with it. And what really
made him think about it wasthat garlicky smell that we had talked

(30:01):
about earlier.
Smart.
And what DMSO cream is, isit's dimethyl sulfoxide. And Doctors
in the 1960s used it as a cureall until a study showed that it
could cause blindness in mice.And then it was considered a toxic
substance. Then in the 1980s,the ban was lifted and research on
its medicinal efficacy continued.
It's interesting. I. I know wedid, like, an old timey medical episode

(30:24):
a while back, like, knowingthe weird.
Yeah.
That was in medicine.
Yeah.
And they're like, actually,no, not anymore. That's something
hardcore. You can't use that.
Yeah.
So just interesting that thishappened so recently. If you add
one oxygen atom to DSMO cream,you get dimethyl sulfone. If you
add two oxygen atoms, you getdimethyl sulfate. So the researchers

(30:47):
began to look into the effectsof dimethyl sulfate. When the vapors
of this get in the body, theycan cause a whole host of symptoms,
including paralysis, coma,delirium, and convulsions, and even
organ damage like to thekidney, heart, and liver. Hmm. It
could also be fatal. And as aninteresting Note, of the 20 types

(31:08):
of symptoms reported by thestaff that night, only one. Nausea
and vomiting is not a symptomof dimethyl sulfate exposure. Hmm.
I feel like that's kind oflike, huh. This is. This is pretty
spot on.
Something's up. This is onpure thoughts alone. But I think
that when your body is exposedto toxins, it does sometimes vomit
it. Because it doesn't. Itdoesn't Makes you vomit because it

(31:29):
doesn't know where it's comingfrom. So it's like, could be in or
empty everything.
It purges. Yeah. Yeah. Sochemists at the lab, Jeffrey Haas
and Richard Whipple, reviewedthousands of papers written about
the compounds. One of thepapers was from 1987, and it was
a classified document from theDepartment of Defense titled Reference
Book on Chemical Warfare Information.

(31:50):
Wasn't quite sure how they gotthat, though. But I'm intrigued that
they found it.
They must have. You know howthey keep doing all these, like,
purges of, like, oh, thesewere classified, and now these aren't.
Maybe.
But, like, not in the early 90s.
I don't know. He knew someonethat knew someone maybe.
Yeah.
So this document said that ifa half gram of dimethyl sulfate was
dispersed in a cubic meter, itcould kill a person in 10 minutes.

(32:13):
It had also been tested asnerve gas, but it was never used
for that. This would explainthe smell on her skin and mouth and
the reactions from the medicalstaff. The lab conducted testing
and concluded that thedimethyl sulfone would form crystals
when warmed in the body andthat when the blood was drawn at
the hospital, the toxic vaporcould have been vaporized out of

(32:35):
the blood in the syringe.
And the reason why you'rehaving that chemical reaction is
because the dimethyl sulfoneis being exposed to oxygen when it
comes out of the body, andthat's when it becomes the dimethyl
sulfate, and that's why itbecomes vapor.
And that may explain, too, whywhen they were doing the. The iv,
they weren't pulling anythingout. It wasn't mixing with the air.

(32:57):
It was putting, you know, IVstuff in. So that might account for
why the EMTs weren't harmed.Yeah, but Gloria's family said that
she didn't use DSMO cream. Andas a Note, about two thirds of cancer
patients have reported usinghome remedies to try and alleviate
symptoms. So I don't know ifthey'd know every single thing she
used. Nor am I saying she didit for sure either.

(33:18):
Yeah, exactly, right. Like whocould say every single thing? A person
would try and like, as aperson who trusts science but understands
that science and pharmacologyand all of those things are regulated
by the government. Ish. Right.Just because it isn't from the FDA
doesn't mean that it's nothelpful. It also doesn't mean that

(33:39):
you should just go willy nillywith anything. But my point is just
that like, there's more thanone type of way to treat things and
it wouldn't be unreasonable ifshe tried something else. And also,
who the fuck would know if youused a lot of this DMSO cream, this
would happen? Likely fuckingno one. Because again, remember people
were using this up until the60s, right? And they didn't stop
using it because it wascausing this problem. They stopped

(34:01):
using it because it wascausing blindness in mice. And they
were like, oh no, this cancause long term side effects. Not,
this can cause dangerousvapors to come from your body.
Right? And I want to say too,it's the early 90s, so it's not like
she could hop on, you know,like an Internet group and be like,
hey, I have cancer. What areyou guys using? It was probably word
of mouth at that time. And youcan't research as easily as you can

(34:23):
today. Things that people recommend.
Yeah, yeah.
So the lab sent the results oftheir experiments to the Riverside
coroner to see what theythought. So once they got that information,
the coroner's office just fullon released it. And this surprised
the lab because they wereoffering it as an option. They didn't
say like this is theconclusion. They're like, perhaps
this is it. But they like ranwith it. There were lots of scientists

(34:45):
and chemists that disagreedwith this possibility because of
the amounts needed to causethe reactions in relation to how
much DSMO cream would havebeen used. So it's like they're like,
yeah, that, that is a thing.But like, unless she's using a ton
of it, we don't see this reaction.
However, from the way that herbody was described, it seemed that
like, maybe if she was usingit, she had used a lot of it. Like

(35:07):
if there was a sheen all overher body, that would suggest that
there might be an abundance onher if she did use it. If it was
in the mix, right?
If she did or even, I mean, Idon't know the consistency. She could
have mixed up some stuff too.Perhaps she was looking for lotion
and she put that on instead.Like, like, we don't know. It could
have been just a whole mix up.So if you're interested in a more

(35:28):
detailed account of how theydid the experiments, check out the
Discover magazine article byRichard Stone. And it's in our sources
so you'll see it. It's in ourshow notes but it is a fascinating
read and it just goes overevery little thing. It's very science.
Science y though.
Yeah. The only reason that wecould explain this science is because
we read Richard Stone'sarticle that broke it down because

(35:50):
it is very intense in science. Science.
Yes, yes. It took me a minuteto sit there and go through it because
I'm like, okay, I have to lookup what this means for a few things.
But interesting, lots ofchemistry in there too. By the way,
we also linked the journalarticle that Grant, Hoss, Whipple
and Andreessen published. Soall of it'll be in our show notes.
Yeah, an interesting read, buthighly suggest so that was one theory

(36:12):
of what happened. There's alsoa few others. So medical officials
have suggested that perhapsGloria had ingested pesticides, but
her family was again veryadamant that this didn't happen.
Tom Sneath, who headstoxicology at the national Laboratories,
noted that over timepesticides in the body would have
degraded. So if she hadingested pesticides on purpose accidentally,

(36:36):
it likely would not haveshowed up in a toxicology report
and they wouldn't have beenable to see it in the samples they
had already taken. As aninteresting note that further suggests
this, in Bakersville,California, medical professionals
experienced dizziness andshortness of breath after they inserted
a breathing tube into thechest of a woman who they were treating
because she had ingested ahouse insecticide. Darzaban. 19 emergency

(36:59):
room workers were examined andtreated as a result of their contact
with this patient. However,with this situation, all of the emergency
personnel, they did not sufferany type of long term side effects.
And the longest anyone was inthe hospital as from this was about
a week. So it wasn't the samelevel of severity of the symptoms.

(37:20):
Yeah, and if we're thinking ofhome remedies, people try a lot of
things when they're scared. Imean if you even think about like
Covid, people were likeinjecting all sorts of things that
should not have been injectedas a way of trying to combat a possible
illness. And like obviously aLittle bit different because we have
a horrifying Internet these days.

(37:41):
Yeah. And leaders that aretelling you to do that. That didn't
help.
Yeah, that certainly did nothelp. But, like, all that to say,
we don't know if she did ordid not, but we also have no judgment
if she did. Because you'retrying to help yourself. You know,
you just want to be better.
Yeah.
So another theory was thatwhatever happened to the medical
staff at Riverside Hospitalwas not from Gloria. It was from

(38:03):
the hospital itself. Andthere's a few reasons why that might
be possible. So, remember,this happened in February of 1994.
In 1993, there were issueswith sewer gas coming up into the
ER from the drains in the floor.
Alarming. Yeah.
So in 1992, there was algaegrowing in the hospital's water reservoir.

(38:24):
And then in 1991, twoemployees needed medical treatment
after a possible hazardous gasleak from sterilizer.
There's a lot going on at this hospital.
There's a lot going on at thishospital. And nonetheless, on February
19th of 1994, a countyspokesman, Thomas DeSantis, said
that the hospital have beengiven a clean bill of health. And

(38:45):
color me fucking skeptical,because I think it is convenient
to scapegoat Gloria in this.And I think that it is no shock at
all that official reportsomitted the most severe of circumstances.
And they were like, oh, youwere just scared. All the medical
people were just scared. Itcouldn't possibly be anything having
to do with the space.

(39:06):
Exactly, Exactly. I feel likemedical professionals would be one
of the hardest group of peopleto scare.
Yes.
Yes. So silly. People are soweird. Okay, so there's also some
weirdness after theinvestigation. The syringe from the
ER room that had crystallizedblood in it had been discarded.
I just don't believe that.

(39:27):
Right. They would have beenlike, what the fuck is this?
Also, syringes go into asharps container, which goes into
medical waste, which I'm justgonna go ahead and assume isn't changed
every 30 minutes, you know,isn't disposed of and destroyed that
quickly. So I feel like theycould have narrowed down where it
could have been. Found it ifthey wanted to.

(39:47):
Yeah. Depending on. Yeah.Where it happened in the hospital.
I know there are usually,like, protocols on how often or,
you know, how busy. Maybe.But, yeah, still interesting.
All that to say is that theymay have been like, it is in this
massive vat of needles. I'mnot saying anybody should go through,
look at the massive vat ofneedles, but they would at least
know where it was.
Right. Right. And especiallythis all happened fairly quickly

(40:10):
in a night. Like it wasn'tlike, oh, a week later we had this.
It was like in a matter of hours.
Yeah.
So it disappear hearing in amatter of hours is strange if it
was. Yeah. Sometime later.Totally understand. But hours is
a little interesting, especially.
Considering they evacuated theemergency room and they only had
the people there who aretaking care of Gloria. And I just.

(40:32):
There's no part of me that'slike, you know what? No one's in
there. They're trying to savethis woman's life, but they're following
their like syringe protocols.I don't believe it. And they would
have had that syringe asthings were happening, so they would
have wanted to see what was init. And I think that it only benefits
the hospital for that to havegone missing. That's just my little

(40:52):
opinion there.
Agreed. And then another juststrange thing that happened just
a month into theinvestigation. An investigator who
was looking into Gloria's casekilled himself. We believe it was
someone who worked with thecoroner's office.
Hmm.
Some say that the investigatorwas facing intense pressure. And
I wonder, like, could youimagine. Again, this is all theories

(41:14):
here. Now if a hospital, whounfortunately a lot of them are for
profit. Right. And they'regoing, we need this cleaned up for
our shareholders or forwhoever makes money with this hospital.
We need this cleaned up and wedon't need to lose money. Figure
it out.
Even if it's not a for profithospital, say it's run by the county,
the pressure isn't. Not there.Especially when they have three years

(41:37):
in a row of shitty instances.Right. We've got a gas leak from
sterilizer. We've got algae,We've got sewer gas coming up. So
four years in a row is a badlook. Not to mention the fact that
they already had severallawsuits that were going against
them that probably startedpretty soon after. So I'm sure there
was an intense amount ofpressure for this to officially not

(41:59):
be the hospital's fault.
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean,thinking about it too. They're wanting
this to go away. They don'twant that bad press either way. They
don't want to be at fault for anything.
No.
And also all of the lawsuitsthat could follow for that too is
just a big nightmare thatwould take forever. So they're just
like, get this done. And that.That's sad. If that's the case, why

(42:20):
this person killed themselves.
Yeah.
So the most officialconclusion is the DMSO cream. But
it is not universallyaccepted. And from what we could
see, Gloria's family didn'treally believe that she died in any
of the ways that the hospitalstated. So it's heartbreaking that
there doesn't seem to be anyreason for why she died. Like there's
no conclusive reason that thispoor family could be given.

(42:42):
Yeah.
And also we were intriguedabout mass sociogenic illness events
generally, so we might doanother episode on some of those
in the future. Yeah.
And we, we have talked aboutthem in the past, like with the witch
trials.
Yeah. But interesting, interesting.
I think it is such adisservice to everyone involved to

(43:03):
just blame it on that and thatthere were medical staff who had
very real long termcomplications from that. And that's
heartbreaking. And on top ofthat, that when the conclusion of
either DMSO cream or masssociogenic illness, they both kind
of end up with Gloria as theblame. Right. Because she is the

(43:23):
quote, unquote, source of this smell.
Right.
When really we want to knowthe source. We want to know why things
are happening so people can betreated in real time. Right. She
was just trying to treatherself if she did use the DMSO cream.
So it's just heartbreaking allaround because there was no answer
for anyone. There was noanswer for what happened to the medical
staff, really how Gloria died.If you're Gloria's family. Right.

(43:45):
And because if she was inkidney failure, why was she in kidney
failure? Cervical cancerdoesn't just automatically cause
kidney failure, otherwise theywould have told her it was terminal
to begin with.
Right.
So what caused the kidneyfailure? I think that's kind of at
the crux of what's here. Andwhy did she have a heart attack?
We don't know. And I don'tthink that there's ever going to

(44:06):
be a real answer for it. Andthat that breaks my heart. This was
a really hard case, but it wasreally interesting to cover. So thank
you for the suggestion,Damien. We enjoyed diving into this.
We really did. The other thingthat my takeaway that kind of just
stresses me out is if she didhave that pap smear a few years before
and they found possible tracesof cancer, and if that really did

(44:29):
happen and she wasn't told,that's horrifying. That's so sad
for her family. So sad forher. Because then if it was caught
earlier, perhaps more couldhave been done.
And I think that's one of thethings that's so, so difficult about
uterus owners and cervicalowners is that like, generally they
Are not taken seriously whenthere are issues, for example, with

(44:50):
myself. I am getting ahysterectomy because I have a fibroid
the size of a peach. Her nameis Jolene. The uterine queen. Yes,
she does have a name. But Iwas experiencing, like, severe pain.
I could barely move. Pain.
Yeah.
And then another separate painwhere whenever I would have it, I
would literally almost passout. And I couldn't move because

(45:11):
it was always when I wasstanding and I would be truly unable
to move. And I went to my GYNand I explained to her what was going
on. And I'd had all thetesting to show what was there and
to show that this fibroid hadgotten bigger. And she looked at
me in my eyes and went, it'snot a problem unless it's a problem.
And I was like, it doesn'tmatter how big it is. It's only if
you're experiencing symptoms.And I was like, these sound like
symptoms to me. She was like,no, that wouldn't cause this.

(45:34):
And I trusted her.
Her because she was my doctor.
Well, you should be able to.
I should be able to. And whenI went to my primary care doctor,
she was like, maybe you get asecond opinion. And when I did, that
doctor was like, yikes. Yeah.The problem is where what you think
it is, because where it issituated is, like, literally, like,
right up against my spine. So,like, shocker, it causes back pain.

(45:55):
And I was like, hey, I thinkit's here. And he's like, yeah, that's
exactly where it is. Whereyou're experiencing this horrible
pain. Yeah, it's because ofthe thing that's inside of you. Of
course it's is. And it waslike, fuck, man. Like, why would
she lie? And he's like, maybeshe doesn't deal with those surgeries.
So, like, she doesn't have to.
But refer. Like, hey, there.There's something strange. I. I would
refer you to this. It's justsome of it, too. Unfortunately not.

(46:18):
I don't know about your case,obviously, but, like, some of it
is also due to insurance stufflately with a lot of people. Like,
they're afraid to bring it upbecause they're like. Like, if I
do, they're gonna have them dothis, this, this. Which a lot of
the times it's things thatwon't even help, but they have to
go through A, B, C, and Dbefore they can actually do something.
It's just a fucking shit show here.
Yeah, it's. It's wild. But,like, my point here wasn't like,

(46:40):
mommy. It was more like whenyou go to doctors, they aren't always
like, hey, here's the problem.We can. We can work on this.
Or they're afraid to.
They're like, oh, it's not aproblem yet. And I'm like, I feel
like this is a problem if it'simpacting my daily life.
Nah, you're hysterical.
You know, I'm but a woman,apparently, but. Ugh, whole uterus
is going to go. I don't know.I didn't know what to say. I got

(47:04):
weird. I got awkward. I don't know.
Just think of when you'relike, can I have it in a jar?
Oh, yeah. I did ask my doctorif I could have it, and he looked
at me how you imagine he did,and was like, no. And one of our
Patreons, Lexi, she works inthe medical field. She does testing
from my understanding. And Iwas like, hey, is there any way I

(47:26):
can request this? And she,like, lovingly gave me, like, such
an explanation of, like,they're gonna chop it up and do testing
on different pieces and makesure that there's nothing cancerous
or anything else scary. So,like, it's not as though they're
just gonna have the whole organ.
Yeah.
To give back to you. She'slike, you could probably request
it after that, but, like. AndI was like, no, that feels just like

(47:46):
a pile of meat. Do you knowwhat I mean? At that point.
I love that she wasn't phased. No.
Yeah. She was completelyunfazed. She was like, oh. Like,
the way that, like, shecouched it was like. Like, you could.
But it's just not gonna be awhole uterus. Perfect.
Love it. It.
What a time.
Well, speaking of Patreon, shewas just talking about one of the
conversations we had duringour Patreon night. It got weird.

(48:09):
It. It was hilarious, though.
It always does.
It always does. But we had agreat time. So if you are interested
in our Patreon, head to ourwebsite. We have tiers that start
at just a dollar. We're alsostill doing stickers for reviews,
and we've gotten a few lately.So thank you to those that have reviewed,
taken the time to. To do that,because I know you have to take time
out of your day to do that forus, so we really, really do appreciate

(48:32):
it. And if you did do one,send us a screenshot, and we'd be
happy to send you a sticker. Ijust did one yesterday, and as Lindsay
said earlier, this was arecommendation. And also just a weird
rabbit hole that we went downon top of it. But if you do have
any recommendations, send themour way. We do have a list and we
are actually researchingseveral of them at the same time.

(48:53):
Some of them just take alittle bit longer.
Yes.
But we do write them down. Wedo have them in a big list. We will
try to get to all of themthroughout the course of True Creeps.
I would also point out too,can you send us episode ideas of
things that are solved? Yes,but do you have a question? Are you
wondering about something? Wecould wonder with you. We could research

(49:14):
some weird shit. If you'relike, oh yeah, I'm confused at why
this happens in the world.We're your gals.
Let's do a friendlyconversation about it.
Yeah, yeah. Let's find out.
Yeah. So lastly, just to add,Lindsay and I just a few days ago
got back from St. Augustine.It was a great trip. I had so much
fun hanging out with everyone.We are currently sifting through

(49:35):
all of the various types offootage that we have through the
three investigations that we did.
So much footage, so muchcontent, so much.
I uploaded it and I was like,Lindsay, I just uploaded like 20
gigs of stuff.
Oh, you haven't even done thevoice recorder stuff yet, have you?
Nope. Nope. So we have a lotto sift through. It's gonna take
us some time, but once we areready with all of the things that

(49:58):
we found, we will be sharingit with everyone and we cannot wait.
We are very excited which iswhy you'll probably see some stuff
on social media before thenwhen we'll share clips and stuff
as like little teasers of somestuff. But definitely not everything.
Yes.
So just if you don't followus, you might want to if you are
intrigued about someparanormal Activity ish things.

(50:20):
Lots of Paranormal Activitywas had.
Indeed. Indeed it was.
So yeah, we're very excited toshare it with you. We're just going
through it. We actually whatwe took like an hour and a half,
two hours before we recordedtoday. Just going through some of
it because we were excited toshow each other things that we saw.
Yes.
Cannot wait though. But withall of that, hope everyone has a

(50:41):
great weekend.
Thanks for creeping with us.Thanks for listening and as always,
a special thank you to ourpatrons who support us via Patreon.
Please see the link in ourshow notes to learn more about how
you yes, you can begin tohaunt the dump, guard vortexes or
even become a scorching sasquatch.

(51:01):
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We'd love for you to keepcreeping with us. So if you like
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(51:26):
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The Medical Mystery at Riverside General Hospital: Gloria Ramirez's Story

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