What are the warning signs about suicide that even loving, attentive parents miss?
At 82 years young, psychotherapist Sally Raymond shares her extraordinary journey from devastating loss to life-saving mission. After losing her brilliant 23-year-old son to suicide, Sally spent 28 years uncovering the truth about what she missed—and transforming that wisdom into hope for others.
In this episode, you'll discover:
- Warning signs about suicide parents, teachers and loved ones often overlook
- Suicide prevention quotes and wisdom that offer actionable guidance
- How to help with suicide ideation with emotional resilience and conscious parenting
- Healing the throat chakra: Finding your authentic voice after trauma and loss
- The power of silence as a path to spiritual growth and self-discovery
- Hero's journey therapy approach to transforming tragedy into purpose
- Real stories about suicide that illuminate the path to prevention and survival
- Suicide prevention training insights from Sally's 29,000+ therapy sessions with 0 losses
- Why it's never too late to reinvent yourself and live with purpose at any age
Resources mentioned: Sally's book: The Son I Knew Too Late: A Guide to Help You Survive and Thrive (https://a.co/d/eW6bWFi) Books for spiritual growth, throat chakra healing practices, suicide prevention national resources
Perfect for suicide survivors, parents, educators, therapists and anyone seeking to build emotional resilience and prevent loss.
About Sally:
Sally Raymond is a living embodiment of resilience, purpose and love in action. At 82, her light shines brighter than ever. A psychotherapist, mother, author and truth-teller, she has walked through the deepest valley of loss to emerge with a voice that uplifts others. Through Become the Hero of Your Own Journey (https://theancientway.co/hero), Sally deepened her connection to the power of silence — discovering how true strength arises not from doing more, but from listening within.
Her book, The Son I Knew Too Late, transforms her personal tragedy into a mission to help parents, teachers, and youth build emotional resilience and
Resources:
Transform Your Life: Book a Free Discovery Call Explore working together: calendly.com/anantaripa/discovery-call
Begin with Wisdom: The Way of the Goddess Book
“I very highly recommend it... I think anyone can benefit from its wisdom." Dr. Deepak Chopra: a.co/crHf7Wm
Get Grounded: Free Living Liberated Newsletter
Inspiration to stay steady and radiant in your purpose: theancientway.kit.com
Know Yourself: Free Chakra Healing Guide
Discover where your energy flows and where it’s blocked with actionable insight: chakrahealingguide.com
Heal Your Gut: Free Digestion Healing Guide
theancientway.kit.com/digestive-healing
Give from a Full Cup: Circle of Life Community
Grow with fellow givers: theancientway.co/community
Disclaimer: Resources are for educational and purposes only and are not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Please consult your healthcare provider for medical concerns.
...Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (00:14):
Namaste and welcome back to the True to
Yourself podcast.
I am your host, Anantha RefaAjimera, and today I am really
thrilled to be joined by a veryspecial soul named Sally
Raymond.
Sally is a living embodiment ofresilience, purpose, and love
in action.
At 82 years young, her lightshines brighter than ever.
(00:37):
A psychotherapist, mother,author, and truth teller, she
has walked through the deepestvalley of loss to emerge with a
voice that uplifts others.
Through Become the Hero of YourOwn Journey, an eight-week
program I lead to support peopleto really anchor their hero's
(00:59):
journey.
Sally has deepened herconnection to the power of
silence, discovering that truestrength arises not from doing
more, but from actuallylistening deep within.
Her amazing book, The Son IKnew Too Late, a guide to help
you survive and thrive,transforms her personal tragedy
(01:20):
into a mission to help parents,teachers, and youth build
emotional resilience and preventsuicide with honesty,
compassion, and grace.
Sally has been on a profoundjourney of reclaiming her
authentic voice, transforminggrief into wisdom, and is living
proof that it is never too lateto give birth to your soul's
(01:44):
fullest expression.
Sally, you've lived such a richand meaningful life.
What inspired you to joinbecome the hero of your own
journey at this stage of yourlife?
That's a great question.
Sally Raymond (01:58):
And Anta, thank you for that incredible
introduction.
I can't possibly live up to.
I believe everything is givenfor you to grow.
(02:19):
And a lot of people don't getthat.
And they feel that they arebeing attacked, victimized,
punished when they're just beinggiven, they're being shaped to
find their way.
And the shaping is whathappens.
And we don't trust thatprocess.
And I think that it causes alot of you know unnecessary
(02:44):
disturbance in the field oflife.
And I think that and with myown son, I think that became
very apparent that that's whathappened to him many different
ways.
And I had to find out thehardest way possible after he
was gone what I missed.
And I will never stop learningnow because I died with him.
(03:06):
The mother I was, the person Iwas, utterly died with him
because he was the one who hadcreated me.
I bore I bore him, but then hetaught me and forced me to grow
in ways that I never ever inthis world would have done
without him.
And in some way, he was sort ofpreparing me for something.
(03:30):
And when his loss came, I Iflatlined.
I didn't, it was like the magicetch a sketch raised, and there
was nothing left.
And I had to start over.
And I am no longer that person.
I don't feel that at all.
(03:52):
I hope not, because she was notsmart.
I'm not a pre I'm not a fan ofhers at all.
But I really had a lot tolearn, and I I feel like looking
for the truth that took him tosuicide helped me find a new
(04:13):
self, a new mission, and a path.
And at this point, I feel likewe're all on a hero's journey.
And I think that we are giventhat at birth.
But I don't think many peoplerealize that for a long, long
time if they ever do.
But I had to, and now I knowthere's only learning, there's
(04:36):
only growth, there's onlyopportunity.
And I am really dedicated todoing all I can at this age
because I don't know how longI'll have to make as much
difference as I can before Icroak.
And that's that's truly whatI'm about.
I don't care about the bunny.
(04:57):
I I God never made money, Hemade you and me.
And that's the goal.
That's the purity.
That's and we're we're endlesssouls at this point, I believe.
And we've always been on thisjourney, so why not be on it
consciously?
That makes sense.
Yeah, wow.
Whenever I get an opportunity,like you know, here's this
(05:22):
opportunity to join this thiswebinar and you know, finding
your soul's purpose and living acourageous life, I'm gonna say
yes, because I want that.
I want all the help I can get,and I want to really fully, you
know, make my life as meaningfuland rich and useful to people
(05:46):
as I can.
And it's not about me, but it'sabout the the the journey.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (05:57):
And how do the program's themes of courage,
healing, and self-discoveryspeak to where you are in your
personal and spiritualevolution?
Sally Raymond (06:10):
It's their core issues.
Those are the core issues thatkeep unfolding me.
And I need, I love thecamaraderie, I love the
leadership because everyone's ateacher.
And you most of all, Ananda,you're absolutely phenomenal.
(06:31):
And so knowing you and feelingyour integrity and your
authenticity and your your yourabsolute dedication to learning
and growth yourself and topassing that forward.
I feel just such a commonalitythere that it's like I cannot
not join because you know you'renot fraudulent in any way.
(06:53):
You are a hundred percent whoyou are, and it's a beautiful
thing, and your light shines sostrong.
I want to just join that light.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (07:04):
Wow, thank you so much.
That was so special to have youas a part of the journey.
I think everyone in the cohortwas always in awe of everything
that you shared.
It felt like when you spoke,you had such conviction and such
clarity that I feel has reallybeen birthed in the laboratory
(07:26):
of silence.
And I feel like of all thethemes that we explored on the
journey, the theme of the voiceand the power of speech as well
as silence, which happens to beconnected on the hero's journey
of the way of the goddess bookto the biological mother,
goddess as Skandamatha, justfelt like you.
(07:49):
And that's why I really wantedto have you be our interviewer,
interviewee for this particularstage of the journey.
And I wanted to ask you beforeembarking on this journey, how
did you experience your ownvoice?
And how has that relationshipevolved?
Sally Raymond (08:07):
Well, that's uh that that takes me through 82
years.
When I was a very little child,I was born into two families,
but my father's side, which wentback to the Mayflower, and they
were Quakers and very quiet andkind and thoughtful people and
boring.
When you compare them to myother side, which were the
(08:32):
Italians, who are brilliant,witty, and absolutely um
scintillating.
And they they uh you know, itwas I I I kind of embody both
now, you know, but I was alwaysdrawn to the Italians because
they were always having thegreatest time with each other,
(08:53):
and they it was rollicking greattime that was just like you
never saw so much, you know,banter back and forth that was
so witty and brilliant.
And I used to just I wassilent, I was totally silent.
I didn't have a voice, I didn'tknow who I was.
I but I sat in awe watchingthose people play poker until
(09:22):
the wee hours of the night, andI would just be in awe watching
the dynamics, thinking, how didthey, you know, how does that
happen?
I mean, how and I had no words,but I was listening and I
really was soaking it all up andI was just enjoying it at so
many levels, you know.
(09:42):
But I wasn't, I didn't haveany, I didn't have any, I didn't
have any presence there.
They were completely happy witheach other the way they were,
and children at that time wereto be seen and not heard, and so
I I wasn't heard, and I had no,I didn't know what to say.
(10:03):
I didn't think I had anythingto say, but I kept looking
around me, and all I I live, Igrew up in Santa Barbara, about
three blocks from the beach, andI had the mountains about five
minutes away, and I had thebeach about 10, 15 minutes, 20
minutes away, and I rememberbeing two years old and
(10:24):
thinking, I'm in paradise, and Ihad a wonderful Italian mom who
was just really there for me,and we I had all this beauty
around me, and I when I go tothe beach, I would just lay on
the beach and think, how can Igive back to all this beauty?
(10:48):
And I couldn't, I mean, Ithought about it for years.
I thought about that question,and I had no per I had no self,
I had no idea who I was or whatI was about.
I had no idea if I if I couldever matter to anything, but I
really wanted to give back toall the beauty, and I wanted to
(11:09):
make you know my life count insome way, but I was completely
silent.
People say I was silent until Iwas 30.
And and when I had children,you have to become a mom, you
have to become a person, youhave to have an identity.
And I developed all that and Ibecame okay.
(11:32):
And but my initial myinitiation was truly as an
introvert.
But I over time I became moreof an extrovert.
But when my son committedsuicide at 23, I went silent
again.
I was gone.
And that's when I startedlearning again and deepening and
(11:55):
listening far beyond just thefive senses.
And and looking for him too,which was part of it was you
know, I couldn't accept his hishis loss.
So I never could say goodbye.
So I kept seeking him indifferent ways, and he showed
(12:18):
up.
He has shown up a milliondifferent ways for me, and I
don't care if people think I'mnuts or not, because it's my
life, it's what I want to dowith it.
And to me, there's an I'vetaken seven statistics courses,
and none of the things that havehappened could have happened by
random chance.
So I feel like I've you know,and he but I've been learning
(12:39):
that there's so much more than Iknew that was obvious, and that
there's a path there, and Iwant to be on that path because
I feel it brings me closer tohim and it bring brings me
closer to who I am too, fully,truly, and I'm open to letting
go of all the other selves andeverything else to continue to
(13:04):
find out more about who he is,who I am, who what life is, what
everything is, and so silenceis absolutely key to that
because if you're talking,you're not listening, and
listening is where you learn andyou become and you think and
you can go deep, but you can'tdo it when you're just spewing
(13:28):
away.
That's just that's not fit, butI can do that too.
But listening is is really thegoal, and that's why I'm a
counselor.
I've had 29,000 sessions todate, and uh I've lost no one to
suicide, and I know I wouldhave saved my son had I only
known, and that's something thatmotivates me and will motivate
(13:54):
me forever.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (13:58):
Beautiful, beautiful.
How has the practice of silenceand stillness and inner
listening helped you tointegrate the deep grief, the
love, and the purpose that youembody?
Sally Raymond (14:15):
Well, if you're very silent and you're really in
a in a hole where everythingyou thought you knew has
shattered.
There are nothing, there'snothing holding you from knowing
(14:39):
there's so much more.
But it takes it takes a lot tobreak the bonds that we
innocently put on ourselves aswe grow thinking this is this,
this is that, this is the otherthing.
But when something profoundhappens and it's gone, and
(15:02):
you're alone in the universe,and you're shattered, it
absolutely, in a way, it was thebest thing that ever happened
to me.
Because then I realized I'vebeen living an illusion, which
my son's suicide had absolutelyproven without a doubt that I
(15:25):
had completely missed his paingrowing up, and to the point
where he he did that, and thatwas intolerable, and so his loss
was what spurred me intoseeking deeply what was true for
(15:49):
myself, who I am, really, whatthe truth is really, and as I
did, miracles would occur thatwould let me know that I was on
a path.
And I mean the miracles kept megoing, and they still do, but I
(16:14):
recognize the miracles I thinka lot of people wouldn't.
But that's because I had tolose it all, I had to lose
everything, and that wasincredibly painful, but it was
also, I feel at this point,incredibly necessary for my own
personal growth, and what I'velearned is so very rich.
(16:39):
I know that if I could have myson back, I would in a
heartbeat, but I don't want tosacrifice all I've learned
through his life and his lossbecause I think I only really
began to live after he diedauthentically.
(17:02):
So, in a way, he's still myteacher, and he's not gone, and
that's an enormous comfort forme, and I truly believe that
with my heart and soul, and thatmeans if he's not gone, that
means nobody's gone, and thatalso means we're eternal beings,
(17:26):
and so he's taught me that frombeyond the avail in ways that
are pretty indelible for me, andI've got the stories to prove
it, and he helped me, you know,write I I had to write a book
(17:46):
about what I had to learn thehardest way, and that took 28
years because every time Ilearned something new, I went
into a horrific grief processthat would just take me out for
months and months, and Icouldn't bear to come back to
the work until I was able to.
And every time though, itreally opened my eyes to more
(18:10):
and more and more, and the bookkind of became an odyssey of my
for myself.
I mean, I it taught me whatneeded to happen, and I happened
to get the most incredibleeditor on earth who was so so
very dedicated to the book thatshe even when I was in the
hospital and I couldn't walk andI may not ever walk again, she
(18:34):
was like, We're finishing thisbook.
So she wasn't letting me offthe hook in in the hospital
bedroom.
And I really that meant theworld to me that somebody felt
that kind of you know importancethat that that this is an
(18:57):
important journey, and anyway, Ibut she was truly an angel.
And I like I said, you know, II see angels now a lot.
I mean, John was certainly anangel, I see you as an angel.
I see angels everywhere, but alot of people don't, which I
feel is sad because they'rehere.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (19:17):
It takes one to know one.
Sally Raymond (19:19):
Oh I have it, I'm working on it.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (19:24):
All of us are angels in progress, right?
So, Sally, can you talk alittle bit about how you
continue to feel your belovedson John's presence and guidance
in your life and work today?
Sally Raymond (19:42):
Well, everything I do, I feel, is somehow
connected to him.
And um, I did spend years andyears trying to find because I'd
just become a psychotherapistlicensed when he killed himself.
So I just had the tools andtraining I'd never had as a mom,
(20:02):
and that most moms never haveto possibly find out what I
missed, and that was something Icouldn't not do.
I had to find out what Imissed, and there was nothing
that was going to stop me.
And as I did, I learned thatall the stories that that took
(20:27):
him from superstar to suicideare alive, they didn't die with
him, they're all happening insimilar forms to young people
today and older people, andthey're doing the same thing to
them as they did to him, andthat's when I really realized I
(20:47):
had a mission, is that Icouldn't just tell John's story.
That's just like a bear in thewoods story.
So what?
There's bears in the woods.
But if I could tell the storyin a way that would help other
people know better and beconscious of what they're doing
or not doing, that either isgoing to work for or against
(21:10):
their own well-being and theirown progress in life and their
children's, then I thought thatwould be worth worth worth
writing.
And so I was I used his storiesat every age so people could
connect to him emotionally andalso see the parallels between
them and him, and then applywhat the the education part at
(21:35):
the end about what works, whatdoesn't work, the core issue at
every age, and then be able toapply that to their own lives
and those of the their lovedones in ways that they'd give
them much more conscious controlover whether their life would
stay meaningful and rich andhopeful, or fall into despair,
hopelessness, bitterness,resentment, and loss.
(21:59):
So that became a mission.
And as I went through that,after I wrote it, many other
things happened, and I've keptlearning more and more things
that you wouldn't have to learnunless you'd had some major loss
(22:20):
and you had to somehow makesense of it.
And so what has happened isthat the book is you know has
lots to teach, but afterwardsI've also seen how people in
society are innocently doing andnot doing things that are
(22:40):
creating the milieu we're seeingnow, where people are split
from each other, divided,hateful, uh, you know, and it's
we're we're attacking eachother.
And I consider this societalsuicide.
It's never going to work forthe the the betterment of our
society.
We've lost the gloop.
(23:04):
And so that's what I feel likeI'm my purpose is at this point
is talking about the lost glueand how all the different ways
that happened, and then bringingbringing back more
consciousness and control overthat so that we can turn that
around.
And that's it's just but I'vehad like I said, he shows up, he
(23:29):
shows up, and the stories areare amazing, and I feel I go to
the grave every twice a year onhis birthday and death day, and
every year it's an appointment.
I have to tell him what I'vedone, and I have to ask him for
help in moving forward andknowing my path forward.
(23:51):
So I'm really seriously, he'she's part of my life, and you
know, so I he's my teacher, he'smy trainer, he's my touchstone,
and he's the motivation thatkeeps me going.
So I don't know if I'veanswered the question, but I
sure talked a lot.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (24:16):
When I hear the word humility, you are
actually what I think of.
Because to me, you just are theembodiment of that word in
every shape and facet of itsmeaning.
You are someone who isconstantly open to learning, to
(24:36):
growing, and to not being afraidto go into these deep dark
places to own what most peoplewould run terrified away from.
And it just always puts me in astate of awe just to hear you
speak about this so openly, hearyour passion for helping others
(24:58):
to not have to go through whatyou went through and to feel
that purity of your soul and howthis process of loss has
actually led to the birth ofsomething greater than even you
and him, and how he continues tolive within that.
It's really quite quiteastounding.
Sally Raymond (25:21):
Well, it isn't really.
I mean, honestly, if you lostuse, if you've lost your son, a
brilliant son, not a just anhour, you know, just and
nobody's average, nobody'sanything, but John was
incredible.
And when you blow it that bad,I don't know how to have an ego
(25:43):
over that ever again.
And I think ego is you know theenemy to learning and growth.
Because if you think you knowor you think you're right,
you're dead, you might as wellbe dead because you've you
flatlined yourself, you've justdecided that you have everything
you know, and there's nothere's no more growth, right?
(26:05):
And I'm sorry, but that's notgoing to be me.
And so, you know, I wasdecimated.
I lost my everything I knewabout myself, and everything I
knew about life died with John.
There was no me without him.
I mean, he was in me when I wasin my my mother in in her womb.
(26:29):
I he was inside me as one ofthe the little proto-cells that
ended up becoming fertilizer.
One out of seven million thatactually made it all the way out
to be fertilized and grow andbecome.
And he, I've never, I he would,there was never a me without
him and so who am I now?
(26:55):
I don't know.
I'm just you know, so it it itit just raised me to the the the
nth degree and so my ego isgone for for better or worse.
Way better.
(27:17):
I I feel that you know when youwhen you have some catastrophic
loss like that, it does humbleyou, and then you're open.
And so that's the gift thatthere's always an equal opposite
gift to everything if you sochoose to leave yourself open to
(27:37):
that and to see that everythingnothing is one thing or
another, it's all but that keepsme on the quest.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (27:50):
Wow.
So, what message do you feelJohn would want to share through
you with other parents or youngpeople who are struggling right
now?
No, I it's hard to speak forJohn.
Sally Raymond (28:03):
He he was he was very opinionated.
He constantly challengedeverything I said.
I mean, when you when he was, Ithink he was six years old and
he was giving me 45 minutes onwhy he didn't need to make his
bed and he was winning.
You know, and I'm a singleparent, and I'm like, I'm losing
(28:29):
my credibility.
It's gonna be gone, and what amI gonna do?
Because he's gonna get olderand smarter and it's gonna, it's
like it's not a gonna be apretty picture, and so that's
when I had to go back to school,and I was a C student in high
school, and I I married a manwho was even stupider than I
(28:51):
was.
I never saw him in school everuntil I hit bowling in city
college, and that I realized nowit was it was a tell that was a
telling moment.
I didn't pick it up for a longtime.
So having a brilliant kid, Imean, he was reading it two
years old, and I was like, ohno, I can't deal with this.
(29:18):
My husband can't deal withthis.
What's gonna happen?
And so I went back to schooland I got a and I I went back, I
was working full-time and I gotan A plus and a B plus.
And I was so excited becauseI'd never gotten an A plus in my
life.
(29:38):
I was a C student, and I camehome, I was so excited.
I told and my son was out, andJohn was there, and I said, You
won't believe what I got.
And he said, What did you get?
And I said, I thought I got anA plus and a B plus.
And he looked at me like Idied, and he went, You got a B.
And he ended up singing anddancing around the coffee table
(30:01):
while I was in the fetalposition on the couch, singing,
Mom is a bee, mom is a bee.
And I was like, I'm not.
I was like, he just absolutelyhumiliated me.
And so I couldn't let him dothat to me again.
So I ended up with highesthonors at UCSB only because I
(30:26):
was afraid of his anothernegative evaluation of me.
So I don't know what he'd sayabout who I am or what he wants
me to say.
I mean, he became a theoreticalmathematician at 16, and he was
in Carnegie Mellon.
And all I know is that I don'tunderstand mathematical language
(30:51):
at all.
But I know that the onlysentence that made any sense to
me in his master's thesis, itwas his title.
It was the continuity ofwaveform in space in one
(31:11):
dimension.
And he proved it.
So I think I mean it's all abunch of squiggles.
Every so often there's a thusor of or so therefore, but
everything is squiggles.
But I think he proved wecontinued before he died.
(31:37):
And I think that's somethingthat was pretty profound for me
when I saw that.
And so I think he would say,This isn't the end.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (31:59):
I love that.
Everything you're saying is someaningful.
The name Ananta that I have isactually a spiritual name I
received based on my ownspiritual journey.
And in Sanskrit, it meanseternal without end.
Sally Raymond (32:15):
Well, I think that's the truth of all of us.
Yeah, I really do.
And I mean, the gifts of ourancestors live on in us.
The only meaning our ancestorshave is that we're here now, you
know, and yet they're alwayspart of the wave of life.
The wave never ends, eventhough it flattens out over
(32:38):
time, it's still there, it'sstill effective, it's still
meaningful.
And I really believe that youknow, we're just part of that
wave and it's rolling on and onand on.
And I don't think there's anend to the wave.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
(32:58):
I want to be a part of thatparticle, I want to be a
conscious part of that particle,and I don't want to deny
anything because the the downsof the wave are just as
important as the highs, evenmore important because the highs
are just where you enjoy theride.
But when it goes and it dropsand it's hard and it's dark and
(33:18):
it's royal and chaotic, that'swhen we have to equip ourselves
from the inside out, and so it'snot a bad thing, it's a
necessary thing, it's part ofthe growth, it's part of the
wave giving us the resilienceand the the the also the path
(33:40):
forward because it's pushing usforward, as even the downs are
pushing us forward, and I don'tbelieve anything is given to us
that isn't something that canhelp us if we so choose to see
it, because whether you thinkyou can or you think you can,
(34:00):
this is a quote from somebody, Idon't know who it is, but
whether you think you can or youthink you can't, you're right.
So whatever you believe isgoing to be what will accrue to
you.
So if you think you can, nomatter what happens to you,
you'll look for the through way,and it will equip you, it will
(34:23):
grow you.
If it will it will make youfeel more resilient, more more
resourced and empowered.
And and I don't think anythingis trying to erode us.
I think it's all trying to growus.
But I think a lot of peoplelook at negative things that
happen to them and go, oh gosh,we're that was so horrible,
(34:44):
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And they don't see the positivebenefits.
And I feel that's a reallythat's a terrible thing.
So as a therapist, I'm alwaystrying to, you know, help that,
you know, that balance be struckso that they can not only feel
the pain, but also realizethere's a there's an education
here.
So yeah.
(35:08):
But anyway, the wave is reallyimportant.
So when my son wrote about thatwave in one dimension, I think
he was on to something.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (35:21):
Yeah, I remember when I received this
name, I was so excited toreflect on all the many meanings
of it, and it felt that it hasinfinite meanings while it means
infinite itself.
And you have just added more tothat list of unfolding of what
(35:43):
this me name actually means andthe journey that we're on, and a
very unique way of expressingit through John's contribution.
So that's really, reallybeautiful.
John was an incredible teacher,he really was.
And the book that you wrote,you're offering to the world,
The Son I Knew Too Late, is sucha brave and necessary
(36:06):
contribution to our world.
What would you say was the mosthealing part of writing it for
you?
Sally Raymond (36:18):
Well, there was a great amount of pain, took an
enormous amount of time, I spenton an enormous amount of money.
But I think for me, completingit and getting it out there in a
way that I feel was resonantand useful for people, and
(36:40):
getting the reviews on Amazonafterwards has just it just
absolutely flat floors me everytime because people there's
people who really get this, andthey see what you know the
utility of it, and they see thatit's helping.
(37:01):
And that means the world to mebecause that means John is still
current, he's still here.
I've reinvented him again, Irebirthed him in a new way, but
not as he would have done, butas I could do in a way that
would help other people knowbetter than we did, and uh have
(37:25):
more resources at their controlto be able to overcome any
adversity whatsoever and nottake it out on themselves and
not somehow think this is nevergonna end.
Of course it's gonna end.
Everything in life is shortterm, it's only death that's
(37:46):
permanent.
So, you know, it really hasbeen an incredible journey and
honor to finally have it out.
A lot of uh there was one youngman I was working with and was
live who was living with me atthe time when I was writing my
book, and he was a he wasworking on his PhD and he was a
(38:06):
double major in theoretical mathand electrical engineering, and
he was from Munich, Germany.
He was very German and he wasvery, very on it what he was
doing.
And he kept saying, you know,you're never gonna finish that
book.
And I'd be less I will, and no,you won't, you're never gonna
finish it.
(38:26):
And every week he'd say howmany pages, you know, and I'd
tell him and he'd go, eh, youknow.
And he he he was a renter andhe left the house years about
four years later, or whatever.
And when I finished the book, Iwrote to him and I said, I
(38:47):
finished.
And he can't immediately wroteback going, really.
Three days later, I mean, hewas in by that time, he was in
Zurich, and he was in Einstein'sseat.
He had been given Einstein'sseat.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (39:05):
Wow.
Sally Raymond (39:07):
And three days later, I was getting ready to go
to get go take a shower.
I look like the wrath of God,and there was a knock on my
door, and I went, Oh my god, didI forget a client or something?
And oh my god, and I went tothe door and it was him.
Oh wow, it flown all the wayfrom Zurich.
He said, Let me see this book.
(39:29):
So I brought out the manuscriptand he was weighing it, and he
was looking at how many pages,and he finally said, Well done.
And that was quite.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (40:10):
Yeah, warning to readers, though, you
will cry when you read thisbook.
You will laugh too.
You will laugh, you'll feelyour whole range of emotions.
So just be ready for them.
The the benefit of silence alsois that it gives us space to
finally feel all those emotionsthat are waiting for us to
(40:32):
simply acknowledge them and thento embrace and accept them, and
to finally be able to releasethe ones that no longer are
serving us, but are there toteach us, so there to teach,
they're not to hurt us, youknow.
Sally Raymond (40:47):
And when you cry, you are recognizing truth.
Yeah, you are recognizing atruth, and you're recognizing
you know, because and that'sthat's increasing your sense of
humanity for yourself andeveryone else.
And so please cry, please lie,please have the whole range
(41:08):
because we need that, we needall of it.
It's the people who've numbedout who are zombies, you know,
they're just they're robots,they don't even know what
they're doing, and they have itall justified, it's all up here,
justified, it's not herebecause that heart would never
do that, but they're out oftouch with that, they've they've
lost so much, and and that'shappening all over.
(41:30):
And I really want to helppeople feel, and because feeling
is what seeds learning whensomething is emotionally
resonant to you, you'll you'llget them, you'll get the
information about what to do,and you'll remember it and be
able to use it, but not if youdon't feel.
Then you're listening to atalking head, and that's all
(41:53):
there is, and it's gonna goright through two years and out.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (42:00):
Yeah, I mean, you've included such
poignant stories from yourpersonal journey and life that
just really, really hats off toyou for having the courage to be
able to commit this all towriting to outlive you and John
and this whole, you know, storythat you've been writing as the
(42:23):
hero really of your own journey.
And I know this might be a hardquestion to answer, but Sally,
if John could read this booktoday, what do you think he
would say?
Sally Raymond (42:38):
I think he'd probably say, knowing John, you
missed a whole lot.
Oh jeez.
I truly believe he would, but Ialso think he'd be, I think
that he would probably be veryhappy inside that I did this,
(43:00):
but I don't think I I think hewould be like, you know, you
could have you could have youjust missed so much.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (43:07):
What's I really believe that he was he's
keeping you at a plus level byuh demanding nothing less
continually all your life,basically.
Gonna change.
I mean those childhood memoriesof him will never leave you,
(43:30):
clearly.
Sally Raymond (43:33):
No, he he was he was he was you know, he was very
hard on people who weren'texcellent, and that he was hard
on himself too, obviously.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (43:44):
Obviously, yeah, yeah.
But honestly, I feel Sally,like just as a reader and
someone who knows you and yourjourney pretty well in a
relatively short period of timethat we've actually known each
other, but I'm sure our souls goway back.
That I just feel him feelinghis heart and feeling finally
(44:06):
seen and understood, and that hewas finally heard, and he his
soul feels very relieved thatyou wrote this.
Sally Raymond (44:17):
And I I yeah, I that would be the ultimate for
me if that were true.
I don't have any guarantee ofthat, but I do believe, I hope
that he knows now that I lovedhim.
You know, because he he washard on me.
I mean, he was one of thosekids that you know was gonna sit
(44:37):
there and question every singleword you said, you know.
And it's it's hard to live withthat, you know.
You're what about this?
What about you know, and it'sit was he was right.
I mean, he was you knowpushing, he was he was that was
what he was doing, that was hisrole, and you know, and I
(44:59):
remember when his he was in hewas with his father and
stepmother two weeks a year, butthey never could make it the
whole time.
But one time he was there andhe was about 10, I think, and I
got a call from my ex-husband,which was very unusual.
And he said, We have to putJohn in military school.
And I said, Why?
(45:21):
He said, He's questioning me,and I said, Right, but what is
he doing wrong?
And my husband and my ex waslike, Don't you understand
English?
I just told you he'squestioning me.
And I said, I got that, but Isaid, What is he doing wrong?
And he said, You must be thestupidest woman on the planet,
(45:43):
and and I said, Well, is hedoing anything illegal?
And he said, No.
I said, Is he doing badly inschool?
No, is he being cruel to peoplein in in in the world?
And he went, no, and I said,So, why would you put a
perfectly good kid in militaryschool?
And he yelled at me becausehe's questioning me, and I was
(46:09):
really mad by that point, and Ijust yelled back, so answer the
questions and hung up on it, hewould have put him in military
school for being in, you know,being a curious, intellectual,
brilliant guy who was going toquestion everything, but he
(46:29):
would have punished that.
And how many parents punishintellectual curiosity and don't
let you grow, put a ceiling onyou where you can't grow, you
can't become, and that justpermutes you in all kinds of
(46:50):
different ways and destroys whatcould be.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (46:55):
Totally.
Yeah, I loved so much how SwamiParthasarthi, the founder of
Vedanta Academy, who has taughtVedanta knowledge verse by verse
for decades.
He's actually older than you bymore than a decade.
He's I think 96 years young or98 years young or something
(47:18):
really up there.
He is amazing.
He's played cricket with kidsin their 20s at the academy into
his 80s, and he wrote thisincredible book called Vedanta
Treatise, which is really anoverview of the main concepts of
the spiritual science ofVedanta and its universal
(47:41):
spiritual philosophy.
He wanted to do this in a waythat helps young people,
especially to develop theirintellect, which is different
than intelligence.
Intelligence is really theinformation you get from other
people, from schools, frominstitutions, from spiritual,
religious teachers, parents,etc.
(48:03):
And the intellect is somethingaltogether different.
The intellect is the ability toactually reason, to judge, to
discern, to make decisions inlife.
And it is also the part of usthat will be able to rise above
(48:24):
the mind and all of its emotionsand feelings to actually look
more objectively at everythingin our life and to be the master
of our mind rather than at themercy of our mind.
What he says to develop theintellect, though he has a
three-year program to allow thisprocess to unfold, it's
(48:46):
actually very simple.
There's two practices that hestrongly recommends every
spiritual seeker to constantlydo to awaken the intellect.
And one is simply to questioneverything, and two is to never
take anything for granted.
And he talks a lot in his bookactually about how a lot of
(49:08):
religious and spiritual leaders,in the name of Vedanta, in the
name of spirituality, areactually really like taking
control of young minds andmanipulating and controlling
them.
I had actually been exposed tothese types of teachers in my
own journey of learning thisknowledge that I now have
liberated my own voice in orderto be able to share and to, you
(49:32):
know, continue to learn as I doso.
And honestly, reading that bookand reading him talking about
this very thing was like ahallelujah moment.
Like, wow, finally, someoneunderstands in such a succinct
way what I went through and whatthe path was to come out of
(49:53):
that.
And I'll never forget thatbecause it's just so simple.
And there is a certain amountof repetition that you would
bring that up, you know, manytimes in the course of the
study, but you really rememberit and it really gives back that
permission to be like a child.
And you always say thatchildren are our teachers and
that we are meant to be theleaders of the parents and the
(50:17):
grandparents and all theancestors who have come before
us.
And I feel that children havethat curiosity still awake
within them.
And it's so important for us togive ourselves that permission
to continue to do that for aslong as we live, because taking
things for granted isunfortunately the norm, and not
(50:39):
questioning things is just whatpeople do, and that's what
allows so much suffering to keepperpetuating.
Sally Raymond (50:46):
So and I I see that I see that also as a form
of the patriarchal model, whichI think it you know it has a
ceiling, you can't rise abovethe patriarch, right?
Don't you don't question thepatriarch.
You do not, you you, you, butyou're you serve the patriarch,
(51:08):
but you can't rise above, youcan't threaten it, you can't do
anything like that.
And I was raised, my mom anddad raised me even though they
were separated in an egalitarianmodel where I was treated as an
adult, even as a child, eventhough I was inarticulate and I
didn't talk much, I readvoraciously, and they gave me
(51:30):
books that a five-year-oldshould never get, like, you
know, from Galileo to thenuclear age.
And I read it, you know.
I mean, I had to have thedictionary by my side for three
years, but I did it.
And, you know, and I learnedabout all kinds of things that
most little girls would neverknow.
And they didn't treat me as agirl or a guy, they treated me
(51:52):
as you know, a person withcomplete capacity, and I really
appreciate that because I feellike they freed me to be who I
am.
You know, they didn't have anyceiling.
They were just like, here, gofor it.
You can do this, you can dothat, you can do anything.
And I feel that it's really sadto see when I see children
(52:13):
being groomed to be less thanwhat they are and fit a mold
that is historic ancient moldthat is no longer useful.
That's limiting what could beinstead of promoting what could
(52:35):
be.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (52:37):
Totally, totally.
Yeah, and so now that you're 82years young, how does it feel
to be expressing yourselffinally in such a powerful new
way through your book, yourvoice, and your mission?
Sally Raymond (52:55):
Well, I don't feel time.
I don't I don't accept time, Ithink it's an illusion.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (53:06):
Yeah, that's what we believe in Vedanta,
also that time and space are arejust illusions in the mind, and
that we are timeless, eternalbeings, and you really embody
that.
Sally Raymond (53:18):
Well, I just don't think there's anything I
can't do if I want, and I now Ifeel like I'm more I have more
options and more power thanever.
And I I never feltdisempowered, but I never felt
empowered, I think.
But I really feel like thiswhole path has been such an
(53:38):
incredible teacher.
I've suffered a lot, I continueto suffer a lot, but their
growth, it's all about personalgrowth.
There's no growth, there's nogrowth without suffering.
So suffering is required forgrowth, and if you take it that
way, it's not suffering anymore.
And that that's what frees youfrom pain.
(54:03):
That frees you from a lot ofthe shibbolus we end up
believing in, you know,completely erroneously, that
limit us and make us smallerthan we ever should be.
We are we are limitless beings,and I'm feeling right now that
I just have another, at leastanother career ahead of me.
I don't know what exactly itis, but I think it's really
going to be worth the living.
(54:24):
And I just haven't decided, Idon't feel old, I don't feel any
of that.
And I I think I told you I justcame back from Europe where I
drove 600 miles alone by myselfin the mountains of Italy and
wow in the dark withoutunderstanding Italian and not
understanding the signage, and Istill got to where I was going,
(54:44):
even though I made a lot ofwrong wrong turns, but I never
went off a cliff, and that couldhave happened a hundred
thousand times.
So I felt and I found miracleshappened.
I mean, it was just an enormousthing.
But to find out that I couldmake it and get to my
destination every time, and nomatter what happened, I could, I
(55:05):
could, I could succeed in thatwas an incredible discovery that
I had to put my own life on theline to find out.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (55:16):
Okay, that is something that I wouldn't
have never done at any age, andI probably will never do at any
age.
So that is definitely veryuniquely your own adventure
through life.
Sally Raymond (55:31):
I've also, you know, I think you know, I've
I've also uh loved goingswimming with wild dolphins, you
know, and a lot of girlswouldn't, a lot of people
wouldn't do that.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (55:40):
Yeah, that's awesome.
That's that's really inspiring.
Sally Raymond (55:44):
Well, there've been uh great lessons they've
taught me.
I've got great lessons from thethe dolphins, and uh it's just
amazing.
And I've gone I've gonegalloping through Monument
Valley with the uh with theNavajo Indians and on an
overnight, and and that wasfantastic to feel like you're
part of a war party and just youknow, flying through over
(56:07):
ravines and no no trails, justgoing.
And it's it's it's exciting,it's it's a it's so present,
it's so conscious, it's so fullof life energy, you know, that
even though you're in incrediblemortal danger the whole time,
it's worth it because you know,without risk, there's there
(56:30):
isn't any life.
And so I have taken risks overmy lifetime, and I'm darn glad I
did.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (56:38):
Wow.
Wow, it's it's so inspiringalways to hear about your
courage and your just absolutelove of life.
You would never think that aperson who's wrote a book with
such a kind of heavy title asThe Son I Knew Too Late would
actually be such a joyful,effervescent human being who
(57:01):
genuinely, deeply, truly stilltotally loves life.
And that makes me wonder whatwisdom would you offer to others
of any age who are afraidperhaps to take risks or to
start something new, to healthemselves, or to finally go
into the silence to emergespeaking their truth.
Sally Raymond (57:25):
What have you got to lose?
You know, I I believe thebiggest risk is not to take one.
I think if you had any ideathat even one cell of your body
in the universe being here rightnow is zero.
(57:47):
Yet you are made of the starstuff of exploding supernovas.
That's your chemistry.
So all every single atom ofyou, every single cell of you
has that kind of atomic powerthat is here despite all
(58:12):
probability of being here.
So when you look in the mirror,if you see that, you're seeing
the truth.
And the probability is whatcreates risk.
I mean, we look at probability,and the more probability, the
less probability, the more risk.
Well, the fact that you'rehere, fashioned as you are, with
(58:35):
muscles and hair and brain andbone and skeleton, and then add
life to that equation, you'vealready taken the biggest risk
and won the biggest, the biggestever gift.
And that's always gonna be truefor you.
So live it.
(58:56):
Live it and be true to yourselfand find out who you really
are.
And you're gonna find outyou're limitless.
And if you look at everythingas a positive, as a benefit,
what did I get out of thisinstead of how awful this was?
You're gonna be the winner.
(59:17):
And you will keep growing andyou'll be free to be fully who
you are.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (59:30):
If you could leave one message to all who
read your words or hear yourvoice, what would it be?
Sally Raymond (59:45):
I I think I would say what my friend that my the
guy who kept giving me a hardtime about my book that it
wasn't in house, the guy wassaying he'll never finish that
book.
He was the smartest guy I'veever met.
That's why he's in an Einsteinseat now.
And at one point he he Was wewere talking and he said, You
(01:00:08):
know, I'm not that smart.
But he said, I am unusuallydetermined.
And I think that's what successis.
I think it's all about juststaying determined, staying on
your path, following throughwith what you believe in, and
continuing to do that witheverything you do.
(01:00:31):
You know, follow the path anddon't give up, and you will
succeed.
I mean, it was uh was whatcreed electricity was who is it
held?
Edison, Thomas Edison, and hisfame, his quote that I love is I
found 10,000 ways that don'twork.
(01:00:52):
That means he failed 9,999times before he found that one
way that worked.
And what a what a gift that hasbeen.
And so, you know, never giveup.
If you believe in it, keepgoing.
(01:01:14):
Do not give up.
The way will show you the way,the way will show itself, but
don't take it personally, it'sjust the way unfolding.
And know that every no meansyes to something better.
Because it's true.
Every time you hear a no,rejection, not this, not that,
(01:01:37):
you're being saved by theuniverse, and it's just your
path unfolding itself.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (01:01:50):
I knew that this was the perfect chakra, the
perfect goddess, the perfecttheme to really bring you to
life because you really are apersonification of goddess
Skandamatha, the warrior mothergoddess Durga in her form, in
her avatar, as the biologicalmother of the warrior son
(01:02:12):
skanda.
And it's a metaphor of how weourselves become like that baby
warrior skanda when we take thetime to really nurture our inner
child and to heal ourselves andto continue to grow and to
evolve into who we are meant tobe.
(01:02:32):
And I feel like you are aperson who has really been born
and reborn over and over andover again in the fire of sacred
transformation and have seeneverything as an opportunity to
just continue to be born againand to continue to be on this
(01:02:54):
journey.
And in that way, I really feelyou are such a living testament
to the truth that the soul justnever stops growing.
And it's such a privilege andsuch an honor to know you, to
have you as a part of our circleof life community, which is
open to amazing humans likeyourself of all ages and all
(01:03:16):
stages of life who come togetherwith a shared interest in
continuing to grow themselvesspiritually and to help others.
Sally, how does it feel inclosing to look back at the arc
of your life and see how eachheartbreak, silence, and
breakthrough has led you to thisradiant chapter of your own
(01:03:39):
hero's journey?
Sally Raymond (01:03:42):
Well, first of all, I can't possibly accept all
those words.
But what I can say is I havelearned, and I keep learning
over and over, that nothing isbad in and of itself.
What we do about what happensis either gonna make it good or
(01:04:08):
bad, and that's in our power,that's in our power.
We can always we are thetransformers, we are on earth to
evolve, and we have to evolvewith risk and with hope and with
truth and integrity, and sonothing bad that happens to us,
(01:04:30):
even my son's death, wasn't bad,it was what it was, it was
horrible to me, but it is whatit was, and it's what I did
about it that has made me feellike I've done what I could to
make this a to make this apositive thing, take turn a
(01:04:53):
negative to a positive, and Ithink that's what we can do in
life.
It's not just an electricity,it's it's what we can do in life
all the time if we so look forthe opportunities and know
they're there.
But if you don't know they'rethere, you won't look and you
won't find.
But if you know they are andlook, you'll see it.
(01:05:18):
So that's all I can say isthat's for me what the most
important thing is is to keeplooking for the the the things I
can transform.
You know, and and knowing thatnothing is bad in and of itself,
that you you hold it and allowtime and your own heart and
(01:05:40):
everything to have its way, andyou'll find an answer coming
through, and something willhappen, and it will be worth the
the suffering, it will be wortheverything.
It won't make what was wrong orbad right, but it will it'll
change the dynamic entirely.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (01:06:02):
Oh, Sally, I could talk to you forever.
You are just a wellspring ofwisdom.
I feel that the silence you'vecultivated has become the
expression of a very powerfulvoice indeed.
And where do people find thispowerful treasure of a book of
yours, The Sun I Knew Too Late?
Sally Raymond (01:06:23):
It's on Amazon.
It's on you can get it in anybookstore.
You just order it.
But Amazon is where it is.
You can go to my website atSally Araymond.com and you can
get a signed copy if you want.
Anyway, yeah, there's you know,it's it's available everywhere,
and it's got, I think it's got4.5 or 6 stars.
(01:06:45):
It moves up to 4.7 to so itmoves around a bit.
I haven't checked, I don'twatch it because I I mean, I you
know, that's my son's gift tolife.
I I'm busy on other things, butit's really important, it's a
really important book.
It's really a valuable book,and it really will help you
(01:07:06):
really well.
But yes, it's on Amazon.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (01:07:10):
Amazing.
Thank you so much, Sally, forsuch a special conversation.
I'm so so grateful and honoredto know you and to be able to
share your voice with everyonewho is meant to be inspired by
it.
And may you continue to justkeep growing and keep thriving
as the hero of your own journey.
Sally Raymond (01:07:32):
Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity to
join your group and to helpmyself deepen and broaden and be
of more service.
And you are also an incrediblelight, and I I I honor the the
beauty and perfection of you aswell, and your you know, hero's
(01:07:55):
journey.
You are certainly on one, andyou know it, and and I love that
what you're doing for people,and I am here to support you.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (01:08:06):
Thank you.
Thank you so so much, Sally.
You're welcome.
Thank you.
Namaste and welcome back to the True to
Yourself podcast.
I am your host, Anantha RefaAjimera, and today I am really
thrilled to be joined by a veryspecial soul named Sally
Raymond.
Sally is a living embodiment ofresilience, purpose, and love
in action.
At 82 years young, her lightshines brighter than ever.
(00:37):
A psychotherapist, mother,author, and truth teller, she
has walked through the deepestvalley of loss to emerge with a
voice that uplifts others.
Through Become the Hero of YourOwn Journey, an eight-week
program I lead to support peopleto really anchor their hero's
(00:59):
journey.
Sally has deepened herconnection to the power of
silence, discovering that truestrength arises not from doing
more, but from actuallylistening deep within.
Her amazing book, The Son IKnew Too Late, a guide to help
you survive and thrive,transforms her personal tragedy
(01:20):
into a mission to help parents,teachers, and youth build
emotional resilience and preventsuicide with honesty,
compassion, and grace.
Sally has been on a profoundjourney of reclaiming her
authentic voice, transforminggrief into wisdom, and is living
proof that it is never too lateto give birth to your soul's
(01:44):
fullest expression.
Sally, you've lived such a richand meaningful life.
What inspired you to joinbecome the hero of your own
journey at this stage of yourlife?
That's a great question.
Sally Raymond (01:58):
And Anta, thank you for that incredible
introduction.
I can't possibly live up to.
I believe everything is givenfor you to grow.
(02:19):
And a lot of people don't getthat.
And they feel that they arebeing attacked, victimized,
punished when they're just beinggiven, they're being shaped to
find their way.
And the shaping is whathappens.
And we don't trust thatprocess.
And I think that it causes alot of you know unnecessary
(02:44):
disturbance in the field oflife.
And I think that and with myown son, I think that became
very apparent that that's whathappened to him many different
ways.
And I had to find out thehardest way possible after he
was gone what I missed.
And I will never stop learningnow because I died with him.
(03:06):
The mother I was, the person Iwas, utterly died with him
because he was the one who hadcreated me.
I bore I bore him, but then hetaught me and forced me to grow
in ways that I never ever inthis world would have done
without him.
And in some way, he was sort ofpreparing me for something.
(03:30):
And when his loss came, I Iflatlined.
I didn't, it was like the magicetch a sketch raised, and there
was nothing left.
And I had to start over.
And I am no longer that person.
I don't feel that at all.
(03:52):
I hope not, because she was notsmart.
I'm not a pre I'm not a fan ofhers at all.
But I really had a lot tolearn, and I I feel like looking
for the truth that took him tosuicide helped me find a new
(04:13):
self, a new mission, and a path.
And at this point, I feel likewe're all on a hero's journey.
And I think that we are giventhat at birth.
But I don't think many peoplerealize that for a long, long
time if they ever do.
But I had to, and now I knowthere's only learning, there's
(04:36):
only growth, there's onlyopportunity.
And I am really dedicated todoing all I can at this age
because I don't know how longI'll have to make as much
difference as I can before Icroak.
And that's that's truly whatI'm about.
I don't care about the bunny.
(04:57):
I I God never made money, Hemade you and me.
And that's the goal.
That's the purity.
That's and we're we're endlesssouls at this point, I believe.
And we've always been on thisjourney, so why not be on it
consciously?
That makes sense.
Yeah, wow.
Whenever I get an opportunity,like you know, here's this
(05:22):
opportunity to join this thiswebinar and you know, finding
your soul's purpose and living acourageous life, I'm gonna say
yes, because I want that.
I want all the help I can get,and I want to really fully, you
know, make my life as meaningfuland rich and useful to people
(05:46):
as I can.
And it's not about me, but it'sabout the the the journey.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (05:57):
And how do the program's themes of courage,
healing, and self-discoveryspeak to where you are in your
personal and spiritualevolution?
Sally Raymond (06:10):
It's their core issues.
Those are the core issues thatkeep unfolding me.
And I need, I love thecamaraderie, I love the
leadership because everyone's ateacher.
And you most of all, Ananda,you're absolutely phenomenal.
(06:31):
And so knowing you and feelingyour integrity and your
authenticity and your your yourabsolute dedication to learning
and growth yourself and topassing that forward.
I feel just such a commonalitythere that it's like I cannot
not join because you know you'renot fraudulent in any way.
(06:53):
You are a hundred percent whoyou are, and it's a beautiful
thing, and your light shines sostrong.
I want to just join that light.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (07:04):
Wow, thank you so much.
That was so special to have youas a part of the journey.
I think everyone in the cohortwas always in awe of everything
that you shared.
It felt like when you spoke,you had such conviction and such
clarity that I feel has reallybeen birthed in the laboratory
(07:26):
of silence.
And I feel like of all thethemes that we explored on the
journey, the theme of the voiceand the power of speech as well
as silence, which happens to beconnected on the hero's journey
of the way of the goddess bookto the biological mother,
goddess as Skandamatha, justfelt like you.
(07:49):
And that's why I really wantedto have you be our interviewer,
interviewee for this particularstage of the journey.
And I wanted to ask you beforeembarking on this journey, how
did you experience your ownvoice?
And how has that relationshipevolved?
Sally Raymond (08:07):
Well, that's uh that that takes me through 82
years.
When I was a very little child,I was born into two families,
but my father's side, which wentback to the Mayflower, and they
were Quakers and very quiet andkind and thoughtful people and
boring.
When you compare them to myother side, which were the
(08:32):
Italians, who are brilliant,witty, and absolutely um
scintillating.
And they they uh you know, itwas I I I kind of embody both
now, you know, but I was alwaysdrawn to the Italians because
they were always having thegreatest time with each other,
(08:53):
and they it was rollicking greattime that was just like you
never saw so much, you know,banter back and forth that was
so witty and brilliant.
And I used to just I wassilent, I was totally silent.
I didn't have a voice, I didn'tknow who I was.
I but I sat in awe watchingthose people play poker until
(09:22):
the wee hours of the night, andI would just be in awe watching
the dynamics, thinking, how didthey, you know, how does that
happen?
I mean, how and I had no words,but I was listening and I
really was soaking it all up andI was just enjoying it at so
many levels, you know.
(09:42):
But I wasn't, I didn't haveany, I didn't have any, I didn't
have any presence there.
They were completely happy witheach other the way they were,
and children at that time wereto be seen and not heard, and so
I I wasn't heard, and I had no,I didn't know what to say.
(10:03):
I didn't think I had anythingto say, but I kept looking
around me, and all I I live, Igrew up in Santa Barbara, about
three blocks from the beach, andI had the mountains about five
minutes away, and I had thebeach about 10, 15 minutes, 20
minutes away, and I rememberbeing two years old and
(10:24):
thinking, I'm in paradise, and Ihad a wonderful Italian mom who
was just really there for me,and we I had all this beauty
around me, and I when I go tothe beach, I would just lay on
the beach and think, how can Igive back to all this beauty?
(10:48):
And I couldn't, I mean, Ithought about it for years.
I thought about that question,and I had no per I had no self,
I had no idea who I was or whatI was about.
I had no idea if I if I couldever matter to anything, but I
really wanted to give back toall the beauty, and I wanted to
(11:09):
make you know my life count insome way, but I was completely
silent.
People say I was silent until Iwas 30.
And and when I had children,you have to become a mom, you
have to become a person, youhave to have an identity.
And I developed all that and Ibecame okay.
(11:32):
And but my initial myinitiation was truly as an
introvert.
But I over time I became moreof an extrovert.
But when my son committedsuicide at 23, I went silent
again.
I was gone.
And that's when I startedlearning again and deepening and
(11:55):
listening far beyond just thefive senses.
And and looking for him too,which was part of it was you
know, I couldn't accept his hishis loss.
So I never could say goodbye.
So I kept seeking him indifferent ways, and he showed
(12:18):
up.
He has shown up a milliondifferent ways for me, and I
don't care if people think I'mnuts or not, because it's my
life, it's what I want to dowith it.
And to me, there's an I'vetaken seven statistics courses,
and none of the things that havehappened could have happened by
random chance.
So I feel like I've you know,and he but I've been learning
(12:39):
that there's so much more than Iknew that was obvious, and that
there's a path there, and Iwant to be on that path because
I feel it brings me closer tohim and it bring brings me
closer to who I am too, fully,truly, and I'm open to letting
go of all the other selves andeverything else to continue to
(13:04):
find out more about who he is,who I am, who what life is, what
everything is, and so silenceis absolutely key to that
because if you're talking,you're not listening, and
listening is where you learn andyou become and you think and
you can go deep, but you can'tdo it when you're just spewing
(13:28):
away.
That's just that's not fit, butI can do that too.
But listening is is really thegoal, and that's why I'm a
counselor.
I've had 29,000 sessions todate, and uh I've lost no one to
suicide, and I know I wouldhave saved my son had I only
known, and that's something thatmotivates me and will motivate
(13:54):
me forever.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (13:58):
Beautiful, beautiful.
How has the practice of silenceand stillness and inner
listening helped you tointegrate the deep grief, the
love, and the purpose that youembody?
Sally Raymond (14:15):
Well, if you're very silent and you're really in
a in a hole where everythingyou thought you knew has
shattered.
There are nothing, there'snothing holding you from knowing
(14:39):
there's so much more.
But it takes it takes a lot tobreak the bonds that we
innocently put on ourselves aswe grow thinking this is this,
this is that, this is the otherthing.
But when something profoundhappens and it's gone, and
(15:02):
you're alone in the universe,and you're shattered, it
absolutely, in a way, it was thebest thing that ever happened
to me.
Because then I realized I'vebeen living an illusion, which
my son's suicide had absolutelyproven without a doubt that I
(15:25):
had completely missed his paingrowing up, and to the point
where he he did that, and thatwas intolerable, and so his loss
was what spurred me intoseeking deeply what was true for
(15:49):
myself, who I am, really, whatthe truth is really, and as I
did, miracles would occur thatwould let me know that I was on
a path.
And I mean the miracles kept megoing, and they still do, but I
(16:14):
recognize the miracles I thinka lot of people wouldn't.
But that's because I had tolose it all, I had to lose
everything, and that wasincredibly painful, but it was
also, I feel at this point,incredibly necessary for my own
personal growth, and what I'velearned is so very rich.
(16:39):
I know that if I could have myson back, I would in a
heartbeat, but I don't want tosacrifice all I've learned
through his life and his lossbecause I think I only really
began to live after he diedauthentically.
(17:02):
So, in a way, he's still myteacher, and he's not gone, and
that's an enormous comfort forme, and I truly believe that
with my heart and soul, and thatmeans if he's not gone, that
means nobody's gone, and thatalso means we're eternal beings,
(17:26):
and so he's taught me that frombeyond the avail in ways that
are pretty indelible for me, andI've got the stories to prove
it, and he helped me, you know,write I I had to write a book
(17:46):
about what I had to learn thehardest way, and that took 28
years because every time Ilearned something new, I went
into a horrific grief processthat would just take me out for
months and months, and Icouldn't bear to come back to
the work until I was able to.
And every time though, itreally opened my eyes to more
(18:10):
and more and more, and the bookkind of became an odyssey of my
for myself.
I mean, I it taught me whatneeded to happen, and I happened
to get the most incredibleeditor on earth who was so so
very dedicated to the book thatshe even when I was in the
hospital and I couldn't walk andI may not ever walk again, she
(18:34):
was like, We're finishing thisbook.
So she wasn't letting me offthe hook in in the hospital
bedroom.
And I really that meant theworld to me that somebody felt
that kind of you know importancethat that that this is an
(18:57):
important journey, and anyway, Ibut she was truly an angel.
And I like I said, you know, II see angels now a lot.
I mean, John was certainly anangel, I see you as an angel.
I see angels everywhere, but alot of people don't, which I
feel is sad because they'rehere.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (19:17):
It takes one to know one.
Sally Raymond (19:19):
Oh I have it, I'm working on it.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (19:24):
All of us are angels in progress, right?
So, Sally, can you talk alittle bit about how you
continue to feel your belovedson John's presence and guidance
in your life and work today?
Sally Raymond (19:42):
Well, everything I do, I feel, is somehow
connected to him.
And um, I did spend years andyears trying to find because I'd
just become a psychotherapistlicensed when he killed himself.
So I just had the tools andtraining I'd never had as a mom,
(20:02):
and that most moms never haveto possibly find out what I
missed, and that was something Icouldn't not do.
I had to find out what Imissed, and there was nothing
that was going to stop me.
And as I did, I learned thatall the stories that that took
(20:27):
him from superstar to suicideare alive, they didn't die with
him, they're all happening insimilar forms to young people
today and older people, andthey're doing the same thing to
them as they did to him, andthat's when I really realized I
(20:47):
had a mission, is that Icouldn't just tell John's story.
That's just like a bear in thewoods story.
So what?
There's bears in the woods.
But if I could tell the storyin a way that would help other
people know better and beconscious of what they're doing
or not doing, that either isgoing to work for or against
(21:10):
their own well-being and theirown progress in life and their
children's, then I thought thatwould be worth worth worth
writing.
And so I was I used his storiesat every age so people could
connect to him emotionally andalso see the parallels between
them and him, and then applywhat the the education part at
(21:35):
the end about what works, whatdoesn't work, the core issue at
every age, and then be able toapply that to their own lives
and those of the their lovedones in ways that they'd give
them much more conscious controlover whether their life would
stay meaningful and rich andhopeful, or fall into despair,
hopelessness, bitterness,resentment, and loss.
(21:59):
So that became a mission.
And as I went through that,after I wrote it, many other
things happened, and I've keptlearning more and more things
that you wouldn't have to learnunless you'd had some major loss
(22:20):
and you had to somehow makesense of it.
And so what has happened isthat the book is you know has
lots to teach, but afterwardsI've also seen how people in
society are innocently doing andnot doing things that are
(22:40):
creating the milieu we're seeingnow, where people are split
from each other, divided,hateful, uh, you know, and it's
we're we're attacking eachother.
And I consider this societalsuicide.
It's never going to work forthe the the betterment of our
society.
We've lost the gloop.
(23:04):
And so that's what I feel likeI'm my purpose is at this point
is talking about the lost glueand how all the different ways
that happened, and then bringingbringing back more
consciousness and control overthat so that we can turn that
around.
And that's it's just but I'vehad like I said, he shows up, he
(23:29):
shows up, and the stories areare amazing, and I feel I go to
the grave every twice a year onhis birthday and death day, and
every year it's an appointment.
I have to tell him what I'vedone, and I have to ask him for
help in moving forward andknowing my path forward.
(23:51):
So I'm really seriously, he'she's part of my life, and you
know, so I he's my teacher, he'smy trainer, he's my touchstone,
and he's the motivation thatkeeps me going.
So I don't know if I'veanswered the question, but I
sure talked a lot.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (24:16):
When I hear the word humility, you are
actually what I think of.
Because to me, you just are theembodiment of that word in
every shape and facet of itsmeaning.
You are someone who isconstantly open to learning, to
(24:36):
growing, and to not being afraidto go into these deep dark
places to own what most peoplewould run terrified away from.
And it just always puts me in astate of awe just to hear you
speak about this so openly, hearyour passion for helping others
(24:58):
to not have to go through whatyou went through and to feel
that purity of your soul and howthis process of loss has
actually led to the birth ofsomething greater than even you
and him, and how he continues tolive within that.
It's really quite quiteastounding.
Sally Raymond (25:21):
Well, it isn't really.
I mean, honestly, if you lostuse, if you've lost your son, a
brilliant son, not a just anhour, you know, just and
nobody's average, nobody'sanything, but John was
incredible.
And when you blow it that bad,I don't know how to have an ego
(25:43):
over that ever again.
And I think ego is you know theenemy to learning and growth.
Because if you think you knowor you think you're right,
you're dead, you might as wellbe dead because you've you
flatlined yourself, you've justdecided that you have everything
you know, and there's nothere's no more growth, right?
(26:05):
And I'm sorry, but that's notgoing to be me.
And so, you know, I wasdecimated.
I lost my everything I knewabout myself, and everything I
knew about life died with John.
There was no me without him.
I mean, he was in me when I wasin my my mother in in her womb.
(26:29):
I he was inside me as one ofthe the little proto-cells that
ended up becoming fertilizer.
One out of seven million thatactually made it all the way out
to be fertilized and grow andbecome.
And he, I've never, I he would,there was never a me without
him and so who am I now?
(26:55):
I don't know.
I'm just you know, so it it itit just raised me to the the the
nth degree and so my ego isgone for for better or worse.
Way better.
(27:17):
I I feel that you know when youwhen you have some catastrophic
loss like that, it does humbleyou, and then you're open.
And so that's the gift thatthere's always an equal opposite
gift to everything if you sochoose to leave yourself open to
(27:37):
that and to see that everythingnothing is one thing or
another, it's all but that keepsme on the quest.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (27:50):
Wow.
So, what message do you feelJohn would want to share through
you with other parents or youngpeople who are struggling right
now?
No, I it's hard to speak forJohn.
Sally Raymond (28:03):
He he was he was very opinionated.
He constantly challengedeverything I said.
I mean, when you when he was, Ithink he was six years old and
he was giving me 45 minutes onwhy he didn't need to make his
bed and he was winning.
You know, and I'm a singleparent, and I'm like, I'm losing
(28:29):
my credibility.
It's gonna be gone, and what amI gonna do?
Because he's gonna get olderand smarter and it's gonna, it's
like it's not a gonna be apretty picture, and so that's
when I had to go back to school,and I was a C student in high
school, and I I married a manwho was even stupider than I
(28:51):
was.
I never saw him in school everuntil I hit bowling in city
college, and that I realized nowit was it was a tell that was a
telling moment.
I didn't pick it up for a longtime.
So having a brilliant kid, Imean, he was reading it two
years old, and I was like, ohno, I can't deal with this.
(29:18):
My husband can't deal withthis.
What's gonna happen?
And so I went back to schooland I got a and I I went back, I
was working full-time and I gotan A plus and a B plus.
And I was so excited becauseI'd never gotten an A plus in my
life.
(29:38):
I was a C student, and I camehome, I was so excited.
I told and my son was out, andJohn was there, and I said, You
won't believe what I got.
And he said, What did you get?
And I said, I thought I got anA plus and a B plus.
And he looked at me like Idied, and he went, You got a B.
And he ended up singing anddancing around the coffee table
(30:01):
while I was in the fetalposition on the couch, singing,
Mom is a bee, mom is a bee.
And I was like, I'm not.
I was like, he just absolutelyhumiliated me.
And so I couldn't let him dothat to me again.
So I ended up with highesthonors at UCSB only because I
(30:26):
was afraid of his anothernegative evaluation of me.
So I don't know what he'd sayabout who I am or what he wants
me to say.
I mean, he became a theoreticalmathematician at 16, and he was
in Carnegie Mellon.
And all I know is that I don'tunderstand mathematical language
(30:51):
at all.
But I know that the onlysentence that made any sense to
me in his master's thesis, itwas his title.
It was the continuity ofwaveform in space in one
(31:11):
dimension.
And he proved it.
So I think I mean it's all abunch of squiggles.
Every so often there's a thusor of or so therefore, but
everything is squiggles.
But I think he proved wecontinued before he died.
(31:37):
And I think that's somethingthat was pretty profound for me
when I saw that.
And so I think he would say,This isn't the end.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (31:59):
I love that.
Everything you're saying is someaningful.
The name Ananta that I have isactually a spiritual name I
received based on my ownspiritual journey.
And in Sanskrit, it meanseternal without end.
Sally Raymond (32:15):
Well, I think that's the truth of all of us.
Yeah, I really do.
And I mean, the gifts of ourancestors live on in us.
The only meaning our ancestorshave is that we're here now, you
know, and yet they're alwayspart of the wave of life.
The wave never ends, eventhough it flattens out over
(32:38):
time, it's still there, it'sstill effective, it's still
meaningful.
And I really believe that youknow, we're just part of that
wave and it's rolling on and onand on.
And I don't think there's anend to the wave.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
(32:58):
I want to be a part of thatparticle, I want to be a
conscious part of that particle,and I don't want to deny
anything because the the downsof the wave are just as
important as the highs, evenmore important because the highs
are just where you enjoy theride.
But when it goes and it dropsand it's hard and it's dark and
(33:18):
it's royal and chaotic, that'swhen we have to equip ourselves
from the inside out, and so it'snot a bad thing, it's a
necessary thing, it's part ofthe growth, it's part of the
wave giving us the resilienceand the the the also the path
(33:40):
forward because it's pushing usforward, as even the downs are
pushing us forward, and I don'tbelieve anything is given to us
that isn't something that canhelp us if we so choose to see
it, because whether you thinkyou can or you think you can,
(34:00):
this is a quote from somebody, Idon't know who it is, but
whether you think you can or youthink you can't, you're right.
So whatever you believe isgoing to be what will accrue to
you.
So if you think you can, nomatter what happens to you,
you'll look for the through way,and it will equip you, it will
(34:23):
grow you.
If it will it will make youfeel more resilient, more more
resourced and empowered.
And and I don't think anythingis trying to erode us.
I think it's all trying to growus.
But I think a lot of peoplelook at negative things that
happen to them and go, oh gosh,we're that was so horrible,
(34:44):
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And they don't see the positivebenefits.
And I feel that's a reallythat's a terrible thing.
So as a therapist, I'm alwaystrying to, you know, help that,
you know, that balance be struckso that they can not only feel
the pain, but also realizethere's a there's an education
here.
So yeah.
(35:08):
But anyway, the wave is reallyimportant.
So when my son wrote about thatwave in one dimension, I think
he was on to something.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (35:21):
Yeah, I remember when I received this
name, I was so excited toreflect on all the many meanings
of it, and it felt that it hasinfinite meanings while it means
infinite itself.
And you have just added more tothat list of unfolding of what
(35:43):
this me name actually means andthe journey that we're on, and a
very unique way of expressingit through John's contribution.
So that's really, reallybeautiful.
John was an incredible teacher,he really was.
And the book that you wrote,you're offering to the world,
The Son I Knew Too Late, is sucha brave and necessary
(36:06):
contribution to our world.
What would you say was the mosthealing part of writing it for
you?
Sally Raymond (36:18):
Well, there was a great amount of pain, took an
enormous amount of time, I spenton an enormous amount of money.
But I think for me, completingit and getting it out there in a
way that I feel was resonantand useful for people, and
(36:40):
getting the reviews on Amazonafterwards has just it just
absolutely flat floors me everytime because people there's
people who really get this, andthey see what you know the
utility of it, and they see thatit's helping.
(37:01):
And that means the world to mebecause that means John is still
current, he's still here.
I've reinvented him again, Irebirthed him in a new way, but
not as he would have done, butas I could do in a way that
would help other people knowbetter than we did, and uh have
(37:25):
more resources at their controlto be able to overcome any
adversity whatsoever and nottake it out on themselves and
not somehow think this is nevergonna end.
Of course it's gonna end.
Everything in life is shortterm, it's only death that's
(37:46):
permanent.
So, you know, it really hasbeen an incredible journey and
honor to finally have it out.
A lot of uh there was one youngman I was working with and was
live who was living with me atthe time when I was writing my
book, and he was a he wasworking on his PhD and he was a
(38:06):
double major in theoretical mathand electrical engineering, and
he was from Munich, Germany.
He was very German and he wasvery, very on it what he was
doing.
And he kept saying, you know,you're never gonna finish that
book.
And I'd be less I will, and no,you won't, you're never gonna
finish it.
(38:26):
And every week he'd say howmany pages, you know, and I'd
tell him and he'd go, eh, youknow.
And he he he was a renter andhe left the house years about
four years later, or whatever.
And when I finished the book, Iwrote to him and I said, I
(38:47):
finished.
And he can't immediately wroteback going, really.
Three days later, I mean, hewas in by that time, he was in
Zurich, and he was in Einstein'sseat.
He had been given Einstein'sseat.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (39:05):
Wow.
Sally Raymond (39:07):
And three days later, I was getting ready to go
to get go take a shower.
I look like the wrath of God,and there was a knock on my
door, and I went, Oh my god, didI forget a client or something?
And oh my god, and I went tothe door and it was him.
Oh wow, it flown all the wayfrom Zurich.
He said, Let me see this book.
(39:29):
So I brought out the manuscriptand he was weighing it, and he
was looking at how many pages,and he finally said, Well done.
And that was quite.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (40:10):
Yeah, warning to readers, though, you
will cry when you read thisbook.
You will laugh too.
You will laugh, you'll feelyour whole range of emotions.
So just be ready for them.
The the benefit of silence alsois that it gives us space to
finally feel all those emotionsthat are waiting for us to
(40:32):
simply acknowledge them and thento embrace and accept them, and
to finally be able to releasethe ones that no longer are
serving us, but are there toteach us, so there to teach,
they're not to hurt us, youknow.
Sally Raymond (40:47):
And when you cry, you are recognizing truth.
Yeah, you are recognizing atruth, and you're recognizing
you know, because and that'sthat's increasing your sense of
humanity for yourself andeveryone else.
And so please cry, please lie,please have the whole range
(41:08):
because we need that, we needall of it.
It's the people who've numbedout who are zombies, you know,
they're just they're robots,they don't even know what
they're doing, and they have itall justified, it's all up here,
justified, it's not herebecause that heart would never
do that, but they're out oftouch with that, they've they've
lost so much, and and that'shappening all over.
(41:30):
And I really want to helppeople feel, and because feeling
is what seeds learning whensomething is emotionally
resonant to you, you'll you'llget them, you'll get the
information about what to do,and you'll remember it and be
able to use it, but not if youdon't feel.
Then you're listening to atalking head, and that's all
(41:53):
there is, and it's gonna goright through two years and out.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (42:00):
Yeah, I mean, you've included such
poignant stories from yourpersonal journey and life that
just really, really hats off toyou for having the courage to be
able to commit this all towriting to outlive you and John
and this whole, you know, storythat you've been writing as the
(42:23):
hero really of your own journey.
And I know this might be a hardquestion to answer, but Sally,
if John could read this booktoday, what do you think he
would say?
Sally Raymond (42:38):
I think he'd probably say, knowing John, you
missed a whole lot.
Oh jeez.
I truly believe he would, but Ialso think he'd be, I think
that he would probably be veryhappy inside that I did this,
(43:00):
but I don't think I I think hewould be like, you know, you
could have you could have youjust missed so much.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (43:07):
What's I really believe that he was he's
keeping you at a plus level byuh demanding nothing less
continually all your life,basically.
Gonna change.
I mean those childhood memoriesof him will never leave you,
(43:30):
clearly.
Sally Raymond (43:33):
No, he he was he was he was you know, he was very
hard on people who weren'texcellent, and that he was hard
on himself too, obviously.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (43:44):
Obviously, yeah, yeah.
But honestly, I feel Sally,like just as a reader and
someone who knows you and yourjourney pretty well in a
relatively short period of timethat we've actually known each
other, but I'm sure our souls goway back.
That I just feel him feelinghis heart and feeling finally
(44:06):
seen and understood, and that hewas finally heard, and he his
soul feels very relieved thatyou wrote this.
Sally Raymond (44:17):
And I I yeah, I that would be the ultimate for
me if that were true.
I don't have any guarantee ofthat, but I do believe, I hope
that he knows now that I lovedhim.
You know, because he he washard on me.
I mean, he was one of thosekids that you know was gonna sit
(44:37):
there and question every singleword you said, you know.
And it's it's hard to live withthat, you know.
You're what about this?
What about you know, and it'sit was he was right.
I mean, he was you knowpushing, he was he was that was
what he was doing, that was hisrole, and you know, and I
(44:59):
remember when his he was in hewas with his father and
stepmother two weeks a year, butthey never could make it the
whole time.
But one time he was there andhe was about 10, I think, and I
got a call from my ex-husband,which was very unusual.
And he said, We have to putJohn in military school.
And I said, Why?
(45:21):
He said, He's questioning me,and I said, Right, but what is
he doing wrong?
And my husband and my ex waslike, Don't you understand
English?
I just told you he'squestioning me.
And I said, I got that, but Isaid, What is he doing wrong?
And he said, You must be thestupidest woman on the planet,
(45:43):
and and I said, Well, is hedoing anything illegal?
And he said, No.
I said, Is he doing badly inschool?
No, is he being cruel to peoplein in in in the world?
And he went, no, and I said,So, why would you put a
perfectly good kid in militaryschool?
And he yelled at me becausehe's questioning me, and I was
(46:09):
really mad by that point, and Ijust yelled back, so answer the
questions and hung up on it, hewould have put him in military
school for being in, you know,being a curious, intellectual,
brilliant guy who was going toquestion everything, but he
(46:29):
would have punished that.
And how many parents punishintellectual curiosity and don't
let you grow, put a ceiling onyou where you can't grow, you
can't become, and that justpermutes you in all kinds of
(46:50):
different ways and destroys whatcould be.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (46:55):
Totally.
Yeah, I loved so much how SwamiParthasarthi, the founder of
Vedanta Academy, who has taughtVedanta knowledge verse by verse
for decades.
He's actually older than you bymore than a decade.
He's I think 96 years young or98 years young or something
(47:18):
really up there.
He is amazing.
He's played cricket with kidsin their 20s at the academy into
his 80s, and he wrote thisincredible book called Vedanta
Treatise, which is really anoverview of the main concepts of
the spiritual science ofVedanta and its universal
(47:41):
spiritual philosophy.
He wanted to do this in a waythat helps young people,
especially to develop theirintellect, which is different
than intelligence.
Intelligence is really theinformation you get from other
people, from schools, frominstitutions, from spiritual,
religious teachers, parents,etc.
(48:03):
And the intellect is somethingaltogether different.
The intellect is the ability toactually reason, to judge, to
discern, to make decisions inlife.
And it is also the part of usthat will be able to rise above
(48:24):
the mind and all of its emotionsand feelings to actually look
more objectively at everythingin our life and to be the master
of our mind rather than at themercy of our mind.
What he says to develop theintellect, though he has a
three-year program to allow thisprocess to unfold, it's
(48:46):
actually very simple.
There's two practices that hestrongly recommends every
spiritual seeker to constantlydo to awaken the intellect.
And one is simply to questioneverything, and two is to never
take anything for granted.
And he talks a lot in his bookactually about how a lot of
(49:08):
religious and spiritual leaders,in the name of Vedanta, in the
name of spirituality, areactually really like taking
control of young minds andmanipulating and controlling
them.
I had actually been exposed tothese types of teachers in my
own journey of learning thisknowledge that I now have
liberated my own voice in orderto be able to share and to, you
(49:32):
know, continue to learn as I doso.
And honestly, reading that bookand reading him talking about
this very thing was like ahallelujah moment.
Like, wow, finally, someoneunderstands in such a succinct
way what I went through and whatthe path was to come out of
(49:53):
that.
And I'll never forget thatbecause it's just so simple.
And there is a certain amountof repetition that you would
bring that up, you know, manytimes in the course of the
study, but you really rememberit and it really gives back that
permission to be like a child.
And you always say thatchildren are our teachers and
that we are meant to be theleaders of the parents and the
(50:17):
grandparents and all theancestors who have come before
us.
And I feel that children havethat curiosity still awake
within them.
And it's so important for us togive ourselves that permission
to continue to do that for aslong as we live, because taking
things for granted isunfortunately the norm, and not
(50:39):
questioning things is just whatpeople do, and that's what
allows so much suffering to keepperpetuating.
Sally Raymond (50:46):
So and I I see that I see that also as a form
of the patriarchal model, whichI think it you know it has a
ceiling, you can't rise abovethe patriarch, right?
Don't you don't question thepatriarch.
You do not, you you, you, butyou're you serve the patriarch,
(51:08):
but you can't rise above, youcan't threaten it, you can't do
anything like that.
And I was raised, my mom anddad raised me even though they
were separated in an egalitarianmodel where I was treated as an
adult, even as a child, eventhough I was inarticulate and I
didn't talk much, I readvoraciously, and they gave me
(51:30):
books that a five-year-oldshould never get, like, you
know, from Galileo to thenuclear age.
And I read it, you know.
I mean, I had to have thedictionary by my side for three
years, but I did it.
And, you know, and I learnedabout all kinds of things that
most little girls would neverknow.
And they didn't treat me as agirl or a guy, they treated me
(51:52):
as you know, a person withcomplete capacity, and I really
appreciate that because I feellike they freed me to be who I
am.
You know, they didn't have anyceiling.
They were just like, here, gofor it.
You can do this, you can dothat, you can do anything.
And I feel that it's really sadto see when I see children
(52:13):
being groomed to be less thanwhat they are and fit a mold
that is historic ancient moldthat is no longer useful.
That's limiting what could beinstead of promoting what could
(52:35):
be.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (52:37):
Totally, totally.
Yeah, and so now that you're 82years young, how does it feel
to be expressing yourselffinally in such a powerful new
way through your book, yourvoice, and your mission?
Sally Raymond (52:55):
Well, I don't feel time.
I don't I don't accept time, Ithink it's an illusion.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (53:06):
Yeah, that's what we believe in Vedanta,
also that time and space are arejust illusions in the mind, and
that we are timeless, eternalbeings, and you really embody
that.
Sally Raymond (53:18):
Well, I just don't think there's anything I
can't do if I want, and I now Ifeel like I'm more I have more
options and more power thanever.
And I I never feltdisempowered, but I never felt
empowered, I think.
But I really feel like thiswhole path has been such an
(53:38):
incredible teacher.
I've suffered a lot, I continueto suffer a lot, but their
growth, it's all about personalgrowth.
There's no growth, there's nogrowth without suffering.
So suffering is required forgrowth, and if you take it that
way, it's not suffering anymore.
And that that's what frees youfrom pain.
(54:03):
That frees you from a lot ofthe shibbolus we end up
believing in, you know,completely erroneously, that
limit us and make us smallerthan we ever should be.
We are we are limitless beings,and I'm feeling right now that
I just have another, at leastanother career ahead of me.
I don't know what exactly itis, but I think it's really
going to be worth the living.
(54:24):
And I just haven't decided, Idon't feel old, I don't feel any
of that.
And I I think I told you I justcame back from Europe where I
drove 600 miles alone by myselfin the mountains of Italy and
wow in the dark withoutunderstanding Italian and not
understanding the signage, and Istill got to where I was going,
(54:44):
even though I made a lot ofwrong wrong turns, but I never
went off a cliff, and that couldhave happened a hundred
thousand times.
So I felt and I found miracleshappened.
I mean, it was just an enormousthing.
But to find out that I couldmake it and get to my
destination every time, and nomatter what happened, I could, I
(55:05):
could, I could succeed in thatwas an incredible discovery that
I had to put my own life on theline to find out.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (55:16):
Okay, that is something that I wouldn't
have never done at any age, andI probably will never do at any
age.
So that is definitely veryuniquely your own adventure
through life.
Sally Raymond (55:31):
I've also, you know, I think you know, I've
I've also uh loved goingswimming with wild dolphins, you
know, and a lot of girlswouldn't, a lot of people
wouldn't do that.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (55:40):
Yeah, that's awesome.
That's that's really inspiring.
Sally Raymond (55:44):
Well, there've been uh great lessons they've
taught me.
I've got great lessons from thethe dolphins, and uh it's just
amazing.
And I've gone I've gonegalloping through Monument
Valley with the uh with theNavajo Indians and on an
overnight, and and that wasfantastic to feel like you're
part of a war party and just youknow, flying through over
(56:07):
ravines and no no trails, justgoing.
And it's it's it's exciting,it's it's a it's so present,
it's so conscious, it's so fullof life energy, you know, that
even though you're in incrediblemortal danger the whole time,
it's worth it because you know,without risk, there's there
(56:30):
isn't any life.
And so I have taken risks overmy lifetime, and I'm darn glad I
did.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (56:38):
Wow.
Wow, it's it's so inspiringalways to hear about your
courage and your just absolutelove of life.
You would never think that aperson who's wrote a book with
such a kind of heavy title asThe Son I Knew Too Late would
actually be such a joyful,effervescent human being who
(57:01):
genuinely, deeply, truly stilltotally loves life.
And that makes me wonder whatwisdom would you offer to others
of any age who are afraidperhaps to take risks or to
start something new, to healthemselves, or to finally go
into the silence to emergespeaking their truth.
Sally Raymond (57:25):
What have you got to lose?
You know, I I believe thebiggest risk is not to take one.
I think if you had any ideathat even one cell of your body
in the universe being here rightnow is zero.
(57:47):
Yet you are made of the starstuff of exploding supernovas.
That's your chemistry.
So all every single atom ofyou, every single cell of you
has that kind of atomic powerthat is here despite all
(58:12):
probability of being here.
So when you look in the mirror,if you see that, you're seeing
the truth.
And the probability is whatcreates risk.
I mean, we look at probability,and the more probability, the
less probability, the more risk.
Well, the fact that you'rehere, fashioned as you are, with
(58:35):
muscles and hair and brain andbone and skeleton, and then add
life to that equation, you'vealready taken the biggest risk
and won the biggest, the biggestever gift.
And that's always gonna be truefor you.
So live it.
(58:56):
Live it and be true to yourselfand find out who you really
are.
And you're gonna find outyou're limitless.
And if you look at everythingas a positive, as a benefit,
what did I get out of thisinstead of how awful this was?
You're gonna be the winner.
(59:17):
And you will keep growing andyou'll be free to be fully who
you are.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (59:30):
If you could leave one message to all who
read your words or hear yourvoice, what would it be?
Sally Raymond (59:45):
I I think I would say what my friend that my the
guy who kept giving me a hardtime about my book that it
wasn't in house, the guy wassaying he'll never finish that
book.
He was the smartest guy I'veever met.
That's why he's in an Einsteinseat now.
And at one point he he Was wewere talking and he said, You
(01:00:08):
know, I'm not that smart.
But he said, I am unusuallydetermined.
And I think that's what successis.
I think it's all about juststaying determined, staying on
your path, following throughwith what you believe in, and
continuing to do that witheverything you do.
(01:00:31):
You know, follow the path anddon't give up, and you will
succeed.
I mean, it was uh was whatcreed electricity was who is it
held?
Edison, Thomas Edison, and hisfame, his quote that I love is I
found 10,000 ways that don'twork.
(01:00:52):
That means he failed 9,999times before he found that one
way that worked.
And what a what a gift that hasbeen.
And so, you know, never giveup.
If you believe in it, keepgoing.
(01:01:14):
Do not give up.
The way will show you the way,the way will show itself, but
don't take it personally, it'sjust the way unfolding.
And know that every no meansyes to something better.
Because it's true.
Every time you hear a no,rejection, not this, not that,
(01:01:37):
you're being saved by theuniverse, and it's just your
path unfolding itself.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (01:01:50):
I knew that this was the perfect chakra, the
perfect goddess, the perfecttheme to really bring you to
life because you really are apersonification of goddess
Skandamatha, the warrior mothergoddess Durga in her form, in
her avatar, as the biologicalmother of the warrior son
(01:02:12):
skanda.
And it's a metaphor of how weourselves become like that baby
warrior skanda when we take thetime to really nurture our inner
child and to heal ourselves andto continue to grow and to
evolve into who we are meant tobe.
(01:02:32):
And I feel like you are aperson who has really been born
and reborn over and over andover again in the fire of sacred
transformation and have seeneverything as an opportunity to
just continue to be born againand to continue to be on this
(01:02:54):
journey.
And in that way, I really feelyou are such a living testament
to the truth that the soul justnever stops growing.
And it's such a privilege andsuch an honor to know you, to
have you as a part of our circleof life community, which is
open to amazing humans likeyourself of all ages and all
(01:03:16):
stages of life who come togetherwith a shared interest in
continuing to grow themselvesspiritually and to help others.
Sally, how does it feel inclosing to look back at the arc
of your life and see how eachheartbreak, silence, and
breakthrough has led you to thisradiant chapter of your own
(01:03:39):
hero's journey?
Sally Raymond (01:03:42):
Well, first of all, I can't possibly accept all
those words.
But what I can say is I havelearned, and I keep learning
over and over, that nothing isbad in and of itself.
What we do about what happensis either gonna make it good or
(01:04:08):
bad, and that's in our power,that's in our power.
We can always we are thetransformers, we are on earth to
evolve, and we have to evolvewith risk and with hope and with
truth and integrity, and sonothing bad that happens to us,
(01:04:30):
even my son's death, wasn't bad,it was what it was, it was
horrible to me, but it is whatit was, and it's what I did
about it that has made me feellike I've done what I could to
make this a to make this apositive thing, take turn a
(01:04:53):
negative to a positive, and Ithink that's what we can do in
life.
It's not just an electricity,it's it's what we can do in life
all the time if we so look forthe opportunities and know
they're there.
But if you don't know they'rethere, you won't look and you
won't find.
But if you know they are andlook, you'll see it.
(01:05:18):
So that's all I can say isthat's for me what the most
important thing is is to keeplooking for the the the things I
can transform.
You know, and and knowing thatnothing is bad in and of itself,
that you you hold it and allowtime and your own heart and
(01:05:40):
everything to have its way, andyou'll find an answer coming
through, and something willhappen, and it will be worth the
the suffering, it will be wortheverything.
It won't make what was wrong orbad right, but it will it'll
change the dynamic entirely.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (01:06:02):
Oh, Sally, I could talk to you forever.
You are just a wellspring ofwisdom.
I feel that the silence you'vecultivated has become the
expression of a very powerfulvoice indeed.
And where do people find thispowerful treasure of a book of
yours, The Sun I Knew Too Late?
Sally Raymond (01:06:23):
It's on Amazon.
It's on you can get it in anybookstore.
You just order it.
But Amazon is where it is.
You can go to my website atSally Araymond.com and you can
get a signed copy if you want.
Anyway, yeah, there's you know,it's it's available everywhere,
and it's got, I think it's got4.5 or 6 stars.
(01:06:45):
It moves up to 4.7 to so itmoves around a bit.
I haven't checked, I don'twatch it because I I mean, I you
know, that's my son's gift tolife.
I I'm busy on other things, butit's really important, it's a
really important book.
It's really a valuable book,and it really will help you
(01:07:06):
really well.
But yes, it's on Amazon.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (01:07:10):
Amazing.
Thank you so much, Sally, forsuch a special conversation.
I'm so so grateful and honoredto know you and to be able to
share your voice with everyonewho is meant to be inspired by
it.
And may you continue to justkeep growing and keep thriving
as the hero of your own journey.
Sally Raymond (01:07:32):
Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity to
join your group and to helpmyself deepen and broaden and be
of more service.
And you are also an incrediblelight, and I I I honor the the
beauty and perfection of you aswell, and your you know, hero's
(01:07:55):
journey.
You are certainly on one, andyou know it, and and I love that
what you're doing for people,and I am here to support you.
Ananta Ripa Ajmera (01:08:06):
Thank you.
Thank you so so much, Sally.
You're welcome.
Thank you.
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