179: ‘Analyzing AEC’, with Matt Wash and Konrad Sobon

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Welcome to the TRXL Podcast.
I'm Evan Troxel.
I'm pleased to welcome MattWash and Konrad Sobon from
Bimbeats back to the podcast.
Though they've both appeared separatelybefore, you'll find links to their
previous episodes in the shownotes today, they join me together
to explore several key topics.
Their personal journeys and evolving roleswithin their company, Bimbeats, how firms

(00:31):
handle challenges around communication,training, and accountability.
The importance of understandinga company's digital footprint for
decision making and transformation,and their insights on using
data to boost productivity andincrease business performance.
Real quick, before we get into today'sconversation, do me a favor and

(00:53):
if you're enjoying these episodes.
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You can also support the mission hereby becoming a paid member at TRXL.co.

(01:16):
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(01:36):
And speaking of email and memberships,one of the perks of a paid membership
is my Leadership Edge newsletter,in which I provide key insights for
forward thinkers who are seekinginnovation in AEC, but are short on time.
They're designed to keep you updated,spark your interest, and encourage
you to tune in to the correspondingepisodes if the ideas resonate.

(01:58):
Leadership Edge newsletters are onlyavailable to paid members of TRXL+,
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To get a taste of what's on offer,search for Leadership Edge on TRXL.co
for previously published examples, thiswas a great conversation with Konrad
and Matt and there's an extensiveamount of additional information in the

(02:20):
show notes if you'd like to go deeper.
So be sure to check those out.
They're in your podcast app if you're apaid member or if you're a free member,
you can find them on the website.
And so now without further ado,I bring you my conversation
with Konrad Sobon and Matt Wash.

Evan Troxel (02:44):
Today I'm joined by Matt Wash and Sobon.
So It's been a while since bothof you have been on the podcast on
different Occasions, never togetherlike this for the first time.
So you guys are both working at BIMbeats.
Konrad has been at BIMbeats for a while.
Matt was at BIMbeats,went away from BIMbeats.
He's back at BIMbeats as the CEO.
And I think we'll hear a littlebit of that story in a minute.

(03:06):
Konrad, you were one of the,I, I want to say you were like
episode seven or something.
I didn't actually go back and look,but that's just what my memory says.
And so it's been a whilesince you've been on the show.
Catch us up on, on what life hasbeen like for the last few years.
This podcast is four and a halfyears old, so it's been at least four
years since we had that conversation.

Konrad Sobon (03:26):
Yeah.
Thanks for having us.
Um, last four and a half years.
So this was right afterwe moved from New York.
So a little bit after the pandemic, right?
So maybe just kicked off.
We're very, very mucha startup at the time.
Um, a lot of thingshave changed since then.
I mean, for me, Probably the biggestthing has been, uh, just growing

(03:49):
as a company and hiring people.
I've never done this in the past.
So out how to kind of switch from just,you know, head down and coding and
working in that mode a little bit moreto managing, uh, that's been a big.
Um, so I'm happy to, I'm happyto have Matt with me now, so help

(04:11):
out with that a little bit more.
But,

Balance

um,

right?

yeah, yeah, so, so we've, so we've grown a little bit.
Um, you know, work wise, I stillpretty much do, um, similar things
that I've done 4 or 5 years ago.
It's just, you know, A lot more ofBIMBEAT, a little bit less on the
consulting side of things with ArchiLab.
Um, and you know, I got two daughtersnow, probably, um, four and a half

(04:39):
years ago, I only have one, a littlebaby, but now I got two daughters
and the other one just turned five.
So that's, uh, uh, thoseare interesting times.
Um,

you extra busy
with all that.

Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
And I just, I mean, my wife and I recentlylooked at some old pictures when she was
born and, I'm like laying on the couchwith her and had a, I had a full head of
hair, you know, I've, I've, uh, I've gotmyself up to the proceeding uh, status.
Um, and I definitely was notgoing gray at the time just yet.

(05:12):
So that caught up to me pretty quick.

It happens to us all.
And then there's those, those peoplewho like to hide it, but not me.
I just full, full silverstreaks on this side of the,
you can charge more.
That's what I've, I've been toldis that the more gray you have, the
more you should be able to chargebecause it's, it's experience.
It's
like right there.

Yeah, the seasoned vet right now.

vet.
Nice.

it short because, uh, I look a little too old, maybe.

Nice.
tell us kind of what has happenedat BIMbeats from your, in, in
your role over the last four anda half years since we talked last.
Just, just in terms of maybe, maybe scalea little bit because I, that's one of the
things I've always been so interested inwith what you guys are doing specifically.
and and so, like, historically,you started out by providing

(06:07):
You know, metrics into differentapplications on the computer.
And, and so maybe just give us kind ofa, a baseline for those people maybe who
don't, aren't familiar with you at all.
What, what BIMbeats is about andthen how you've seen it change
over the last four and a halfyears before we jump over to Matt.
Sorry, sorry Matt, I'm not, not tryingto ignore you yet, but I think there's
some, there's something here to just kindof set the table for this conversation.

Sure, sure.
So how about, how about I go back intime a little bit, jump into a time
machine and, um, in my days as a BIMmanager, that's really where the idea
for BIMbies and, uh, kind of generally,some kind of data analytics platform,
uh, came to my, uh, came to mind.
So this were, these weremy days of, you know, just.

(06:54):
Regular BIM coordination, BIMmanagement, jobs that I was doing,
I think, with Grimshaw at the time.
And we were a relatively small office, soI would have whatever, whatever projects
were in the office, we're splitting thatbetween myself and my manager, Greg.
And then, you know, just.
Deadline after deadline.

(07:14):
You're working pretty muchevery Friday is a deadline.
So, you know, you're running fouror five, six projects at a time.
and I was like, yeah, it'sjust, you know, it's too much.
Like, I can't keep up withall of the different projects,
all of the different models.
How do you, how do you do that having togo into all of those different models?
And then, you know, at the timeI didn't have much, um, What kind

(07:37):
of programming skills to go off ofand just build a platform per se.
So we started off withDynamo scripts, right?
And that didn't scale too much,but then eventually over the years,
um, build out some other tools.
Um, when I worked at HOK, wespent a lot of time working.
Again, with my manager, Greg, I'vehad a, I've had luck with Greg's.

(07:58):
Um, so, you know, Greg Schleusnerand I are working at something
called mission control at the time.
And, you know, that was a differentspin and different approach of
trying to pull data automatically.
So there's a BIM manager.
You can kind of have aquick look into the models.
And at a time, the conversation wasalways, you know, You're kind of
building the tools for yourself always.
So the conversation was Revit, Revit,Revit, because as a BIM manager, that's

(08:21):
what you're really interested in is,you know, but as the scale grew, um,
and, you know, after, after HOK, uh,we started working on BIMBEADS with
Adam and, know, the idea, the ideathen kind of turned is like, you
know, why don't we scale horizontally?
So it wasn't just about Revit andmodel health metrics, um, from.

(08:42):
Revit files at a time, um, we startedtalking about pulling data from all
sorts of other applications, right?
And, you know, four and a half yearsago, maybe, this was just Revit Dynamo
and maybe Rhino Grasshopper at the time.
then, um, We're probably up to, youknow, a dozen different sources of
data, uh, just recently pushed out,um, a new integration for ArcGIS.

(09:07):
Um, obviously we do AutoCAD, Navisworks,um, all kinds of standalone applications
that pull data from your computer aboutthe hardware, about the processes that
you're running on the computer, just, youknow, a ton of different sources of data.
Uh, so we kind of scaledthat horizontally.
So it's no longer just like a model,Health metrics, uh, platform, um, as,

(09:28):
as it was originally, um, in orderto aid managers, uh, right now it's
more of a, you know, digital footprintfor the company and you can use it
for all kinds of different things.

And it really ends up telling a lot more of the story, right?
Like, like, model health isnot the entire story, right?
And so you've got performance,like hardware performance, right?
All kinds of additional insights thatyou're kind of pulling from to tell a
broader story so that you can reallyunderstand, like, what's going on with

(10:02):
the quote unquote health or maybe fitnessof, The digital of your company as you're
working on delivering these projects.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Matt, you want to jump in?
Cause, um, so Matt before, uh,kind of assuming the role of a
CEO, he actually worked on a, asa, on the client side of things.
So he has a unique, um, perspectiveon, you know, the actual application
and use cases, uh, for Bimbeats.
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna let him.

throw it over to Matt, who is definitely the CEO
because he's wearing the uniform.
He's got his Bimby's shirt on.
he's doing his marketingreally well today.
So Matt, yeah, give it, give usan update on, you've also been
on the show previously and.
you were at Bimbeats at the time, you wentaway from Bimbeats, came back, I'd love
for you to hear a little bit behind that,but maybe we start with where Konrad just

(10:55):
led, which was, you were actually, like,in a firm, using this kind of stuff, and I
think, you know, go ahead and jump off and
let's hear it, let's
hear about it.

Matt Wash (11:06):
Yeah, okay, I'll do a quick summary of what we spoke about last time.
So this was when, when I first gotinvolved with BIMbeats was, um,
I'm a good friend of Adam Sheather.
Adam lives in Brisbane.
We talk about this kind of stuffall the time and I was explaining
to him a problem that I had.
I was a design technology leaderof BVN Architects and our challenge
was really understanding whyRevit was crashing regularly.

(11:27):
and how we could getto the bottom of that.
And I just kept saying, look, itwas taking up so much of my time
trying to analyze journal filesand work out, was it the RAM?
Was it the infrastructure?
Was it the model?
Was it the competency of the user?
All of these different things.
And he's, that's when he said,oh look, we're building this
tool that will be basically ableto solve all of those problems.
So I'm like, well, sweet.

(11:48):
Let's just implement that.
So, we worked on, I think we werethe first client of, of BIMBEATS.
Uh, and back then if, if you've ever readEric Rees um, the lean startup, these
guys definitely achieved pushing outthat, um, that minimum viable product.
Um, in that It, it, it was aimingto solve one of the biggest

(12:08):
problems we had within the office.
Um, were the dashboards any good?
No, the dashboards were not good.
Did we really know how we were passing thedata and all the different index patterns?
No, not really, but having Adam there andgetting regular feedback, we constantly
iterated on the product and we got itto a point where We were automating
alerts so that when Revit was crashing,it was automatically sending a help

(12:29):
desk ticket to our IT team, which thentold them, was the RAM, you know, at
capacity, was the hard drive at capacity?
What was the user doingprior to the crash?
So all of the metricsthat I was doing manually.
was now being captured automatically.
Obviously, we didn'tsolve every single crash.
There was too many variables, but we didget to the bottom of a few key things

(12:50):
that we were then able to action, makesome changes, and then use BIMbeats to
look at frequency of crashing, obviously,as the key metric has that come down.
But then we really started unpacking,well, what is the business impact of what
we're doing in terms of how much time arewe wasting Opening files and saving files.
They were the two real key metrics.
And to start with, when we wouldpresent back to leadership, it

(13:14):
was all around model health anda traffic light dashboard, but
didn't mean anything in terms ofcommercial aspect of the business.
And it didn't really talk aboutcompetency profiling and skills gap
analysis, which were the two realthings that we needed to address.
So I did that for a while at BVN.
And then because I startedunpacking a lot of these

(13:35):
insights, Konrad and Adam Settler.
You've probably got the most experienceof this tool in the industry, and
with the use of it, how about you comeand join us and start developing it
with us and talking to our clientsand doing exactly what you've done
at BVM, but now for everybody.
So then I started working with acompany called ADG, engineers in
Brisbane, who were a client ofBIMbeats, and they said, we've had

(13:56):
BIMbeats for a couple of years now.
We know that it's pretty good.
Providing all of this usefuldata, but we're really not
understanding what we can do with it.
We're really not gettingthe benefit out of it.
Do you know someone that could comeinto the business and play that role of
really trying to analyze what it, whatit's doing and how we can get benefits
for the bottom line of the business?
But really to address theirbiggest problem, which was

(14:17):
burnout and retention of staff.
That was like, and it's an industrywide problem, but it was also
one of their biggest challenges.
So I said, Oh, wow.
Okay.
Yeah, I think we can probably solve this.
It isn't going to happenovernight because this extends
far beyond just the technology.
Like, this is now talkingabout people and culture.
This is talking about Like the threethings that, ironically, this morning

(14:38):
on my commute into work, I've just readNate Miller's post, and if you haven't
had a chance to read it, it is awesome.
It got posted on LinkedIn this morning.
But he talks about three things.
He talks about being smart,being healthy, and being fit.
And the being smart bit is thatyou have the right tools within the
businesses, you have your processes,you have your systems in place.
Then you talk about health, and the healthis all about the culture of the business.

(15:00):
And it's not relying juston a few individuals who are
passionate about the technology.
It's gotta be.
The entire business supporting this andthen from fitness point of view, it's
you've got to measure the success of thisin order for it to have long term success.
You've got to have those threecomponents and the final piece, the
fitness piece is the one thing thatI think BIMbeats does really, really

(15:23):
well that we can buy the software.
We can write the processes.
And we can do the culture, which is thehard bit, but measuring the benefits to
the business was the one thing that overthe last two years, before I took the
role as CEO, was how do I communicate thisto the C suite within this organization,
that, that those three things need tocome together, but it's really about

(15:45):
that measurable benefit at the end, interms of people, so the health of the
people and the health of the business.
So then it started looking, andnone of this really was related
to Revit, believe it or not.
Because, because BIMbeats looks atevery single process that's running
on the machine in terms of softwareand web applications, what we actually

(16:06):
started with was, where are we spendingour time across the entire business?
Let's look at where the effort is.
And we found that 20%, we're an engineer,or we, I keep saying we, because I
was only there a month ago, uh, anengineering consultancy that does civil,
structural and construction services.
And we found that we spent theentire business time in PDF markups.

(16:29):
And we were like, there's got tobe a better way to do PDF markups.
There must be ways that we can automatea lot of what we're doing here.
So we then started drillingdown in BIMbeats, like, what
are we doing in Bluebeam?
And we found out that we weredoing slab reinforcement markups
and wall elevation markups.
And those two things were contributingto a significant amount of hours.

(16:49):
And in fact, in terms of totalbillable hours, we're 250 people.
Bluebeam was costing 10 milliondollars of billable time every year.
And it's like great, Bluebeam is anawesome tool for doing digital markups,
but what of those digital markups couldwe do differently that doesn't mean an
engineer is marking something up, givingit to a technician, the technician

(17:10):
tracing that and then giving it backforwards, backwards and forwards.
So we looked at the slab reinforcementmarkup process and then we started
chatting to people that weredoing that process in terms of
the engineer and the technician.
And then we started revealing allof this duplication of effort and
frustration around that process.
So we got one of our developers,who was a previous, or is still a

(17:31):
structural technician, who's been doingreinforcement detailing for 20 years.
He's learned how to code, so he knowsthe problem we're trying to solve.
And he built a tool that exports thecontextual background from Revit.
into what we call SmartMark.
The engineer comes into ourSmartMark application and does a
markup as they would do in Bluebeam.

(17:52):
But because it's come fromRevit, it's got the intelligence
of the context of the slab.
And as you go to mark up that slab,it understands what type of bars
you need to apply, where you needto lap the reinforcement, where
you need to crank a bar, becauseit's got the context to Revit.
Then when the markup's finished bythe engineer, it just gets sucked
directly into Revit and it turnsit into Revit componentry that is

(18:14):
fully scheduled law reinforcement.
So we then started tracking the uptakeof, well, okay, we now need to train
everybody in the new application.
So we've written 10 two minutetutorials that go on the intranet.
Within BIMbeats, we can seewho's using the application.
We can see who's done the training.
So, I think the most insightful part, andthis probably comes back to the cultural

(18:35):
piece, is we identified the problem.
We solved the problem with the software.
But then the next point was,well, how do we integrate this and
adopt this as business as usual?
So we did, we did a national updateto the entire business on Teams.
And I had a 10 minute slot to talkabout this process and why we were
doing it, the metrics behind wherewe were spending time in Bluebeam

(18:57):
and how we could save that time.
And I get 10 minutes of an hourslot of like a town hall for 250
people, and I'm probably about 20minutes into this presentation.
So anyway, we deliver the,we deliver the message.
We tell them that.
On the intranet, this is where allof the tutorials are, this is where
the application is, like, here's theexpert, we created a Teams channel for

(19:18):
feedback, so anything, bugs, whatever,here's where you provide the feedback.
And the uptake in the firstmonth was almost non existent,

crickets,

Matt Wash (19:26):
I'm like, Too weird.
And I'm like, what's, what's,what have we done wrong here?
We've identified the problem,

grail.

Matt Wash (19:35):
And I'm like, there must be something we're doing wrong here.
And I'm like, I know what I'm going to do.
I'm going to look in Bimbeatsand look at that Teams meeting.
And because we get the title ofthe screen of the active window

What was

Matt Wash (19:48):
that presentation,

time?

Matt Wash (19:49):
we can see the, we can see the engagement.
So, For the first two minutes of ourtown halls, we have up to about 160,
170 people of the 250 from the company.
And then as the minutesgo on, it drops off.

the window
that's

Matt Wash (20:07):
Everyone,
everyone's got multiple monitors.
And then I go and check everybody'stypically back in Revit, back in the
structural analysis applications.
Or anything but, and by the end ofthat meeting, 5 percent of people
have actively engaged with thatcontent from start to finish in
terms of it being the active window.

(20:29):
So that made us think about what's,what's our communication strategy here?
Like, what is that meeting about?
What's the intention of that meeting?
Is it to inform people?
And it's, uh, if you listen in,great, you learn something, but if
you don't, you, it's, it's okay.
If we're trying to communicate a messagein there that needs to change business
behavior, that is going to affect anoutcome, that platform is obviously

(20:50):
not the right platform to do it.
And we've got to think of a differentway of doing it, but we would like,
we would never have known thatif we didn't look at the data.
There was anecdotal evidence that wethought that certain people would,
you know, I do, I go off and do otherthings, but it was actually really
insightful to see that like 95 percentof people tune in to start with.

(21:10):
And then I obviously kind of tune out.
As the presentation goes on.
So that was when it's like, okay,reinforce the message regularly
and the BIMbeats dashboardswere then looked at over time.
So month by month, how manypeople are using the tool?
How many people have done the training?
And it's, it's taken longerthan we thought it would.
It just showed that we've got tocontinuously reinforce that message and

(21:32):
continuously measure it because if weassume that we've done all we need to do.
Really, it's, it's got tobe that continuous measuring
and managing that process.
It doesn't just happen.
It really comes back, and I guess thatcomes back to the cultural piece as well.
But having our intranet and havingBIMbeats capture who's using our intranet

(21:53):
and what content on the intranet.
That's been really insightful too,because we have one page Gems.
And the one page gem is a summaryof something that's really important
and critical to the business.
And that one page gem can be readin like two or three minutes.
And the engagement withthat content is great.
Like, everybody reads the gem.
When we record Lunch and Learns andput them on the intranet, Literally

(22:16):
no one goes back and watches them.
So like, now, so I guess my point ofview in terms of BIMBEATS and what I
was trying to do with the last two yearsis, as Konrad kind of alluded to, it's
not a model health checker tool anymore.
Yes, it does all of that.
But this is like this digital footprintof your organization and is measuring the
success of your digital transformation.
And that for me was when I went,Wow, like this tool is so powerful.

(22:39):
And that was when I said, Hey, Konrad,I'm really keen to come back again.
What do you think?
And that, and Adam had grown Autonomation,his consulting business from when I
started, there were four of us and thatconsulting business is now up to 18
people and Adam's like, Oh, mate, please.
Please come in and do it becauseI am just like exhausted.
I, I, I just can't do both.

(23:02):
So that was when I said, yeah,I'd love to come in and do that.
And then in the last, so I've onlybeen in the role since mid December
and from mid December until now.
I talked to all of our existing clientsand everybody says the same thing.
You don't do anything on social media.
There's no presence online.
When we talk about you,no one knows who you are.

(23:22):
He's laughing.
Um, and then we, so I said,okay, well, we're going to get
someone into help with marketing.
And then she's come in and she'slike, how have you grown to the
size that you are with theseclients with no marketing at all?
And I just said, it's just word of mouth.
Everything to date has been word of mouth.
We've done a couple of conferencepresentations, but like very, very
little social media presence and such.

(23:44):
And she's like, right,that's got to change.
We've got to tell people what youguys are doing because I did, I did,
I did tell her that and I told herI'm going back on it again tomorrow.
And she was like, Oh, that's great.
When was the last time you did it?
I was like, uh, 2022, I think.
She's like, yeah, you probably needto tell people what you're doing.
So that was, I mean,and we know that, right?

(24:06):
And it's great, like the factthat we have grown to probably,
what, 60 clients now at Konrad?
And pretty much through word of mouth,which is great because obviously, you
don't need to sell a product if someone'stelling someone else how good it is.
Um, which is, which is amazing.
Um, and big shout out to, um,Alex from Woods Bagot who actually

(24:27):
did a presentation at AU thisyear on, um, Data metric tools or
data capture tools for um, Revit.
Um, and if you haven't seenit, I'd advise watching.
It's a really good presentationthat talks about all the different
methods of capturing data.
Um, but yeah, we're relying on otherpeople to do our marketing and sales
for us, which, which is great, but.

(24:48):
I think we want to extend our 60 clientsto, to be a bit bigger than that.
Um, and I think the other thing thatwe probably haven't touched on it.
Well, Konrad did a little bitabout the purpose of BIMbeats.
So I often like reflect on what'smy purpose and what I want to do.
And I, and I think it's stemmed frombeing that frustrated BIM manager,
that frustrated computational designer.

(25:08):
And Konrad and I had a bit ofa chat about this in the, like,
when I first took on the role.
And then we started unpacking, andKonrad can probably elaborate on this,
about how Konrad used to be on theDynamo forum asking, answering all of
these questions, and building ArchieLabpackage, and giving it away for free.
And I'm like, There was no commercial gainfor any of what Konrad was doing there.

(25:29):
And he can, again, he can elaborateon this, but it was like the
fulfillment of helping someone andsomeone else feeling like you were
helping them was far greater than anyfinancial gain that you could make.
And that was the frustration that wewere having within organizations was
the matter how much effort we put in,we didn't feel like what we were doing
was being recognized and rewarded for.

(25:51):
And I guess it's probablybecause we didn't have a tool
to measure what we were doing.
And that.
message didn't get up to leadershipabout the benefits of those
actions that we were doing.
But I guess for me, I really want to giveback through Bimbeats so that all of those
frustrated BIM managers and computationaldesigners of the world do get recognized
and rewarded, because we will be ableto measure and the benefits that they're

(26:13):
having for businesses, and also startlooking at, they are the people that
are typically the ones that are burningout and doing the longest hours, which
is ironic, because they are the mostefficient people within the business.
They are your 80 20.
They are your 80 20, yet wheneverI look at the wellness dashboard on
any organization, typically the mostoverworked people are are the most

(26:35):
efficient people and the ones thatare really making a difference, but it
hasn't been scaled across that business,but I'm going to hand back to Konrad
because I've been talking for too long.
Maybe you want to elaborate a littlebit more about why you created
Archilab and Dynamo, the Dynamo forum.

Let's take a break from the conversation to tell you about Arcol, who
is helping make this episode possible.
Architects should demand moreout of their design tools.
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let's get back to the conversation

Matt Wash (27:52):
forum.

Oh, the package?
for me it was always, the learning,um, You know, like you were explaining,
there's an awesome sense of gratification.
You can go on the forum andanswer someone's question.
That's part of it too, but youalso get so much from it yourself.

(28:19):
it's not, um, you know, back in the daysI was working as a consultant, so it
wasn't anything monetary, but, um, but,you know, someone asked a great question
that you don't know the answer to.
You know, it's, youknow, just finding out.
Oftentimes, you know, I would just,like, come into the office in the
morning, and I was still, you know,back in my Grimshaw days, and, um, I

(28:41):
would come in early, and I'd just, youknow, spend the first 30 minutes or
so, uh, just looking for an interestingquestion on the forum to answer, right?
And that was, know, that was,like, something new to me.
Uh, Tulare, it's like, you know,I don't know, when you wake up and
you go out for a run or stretch orsomething else, just for me to stretch
my brain a little bit in the morning.

like, it's like doing the crossword puzzle in the morning,
right?
It's like,

On your right, yeah, on your right at work, yeah, you read a book or
you do a crossword puzzle or whatever.
for me, that was just, youknow, like a little mental
stretch or workout or whatever.
Um, know, you learn something newand, um, and that at that time is,
uh, a lot of, a lot of the crowd, thepeople that I was hanging out with,

(29:23):
um, you know, people like Mustafa,David Vance, um, they were all super
keen into open source software as well.
So that's, that's why ArchiLabshas always been, um, open source
and available to this day.

I think back to kind of something that you both touched on,
which is like you, BIMbeats exposesthe problems, problems, plural, right?
I mean, it's challenging.
And I think we probably talked about thison both of our previous podcasts with each
one of you, respectively, about of people.
are scared to kind of even understandwhat the problems are because they think

(30:02):
they're going to get in trouble, right?
And, and so we've always kind ofcouched this in, no, we're looking
for opportunities to improve.
And if things need to be improved,like this exposes that, and now we
can improve those things, right?
Um, I mean, that makes a lot of sense,but I think a lot of times, and you both
have alluded to this today, and, andI mean, I know we've had conversations

(30:24):
about this as well, where just seeing thatinformation is usually where people stop
talking about this stuff, and, and becausethe doing it is the hard part, right?
It's like implementing newsoftware, easy, getting people
to do something differently.
Very, very, very difficult.
And Matt, you talked about communicationand kind of always bringing it up

(30:47):
till you're sick of bringing it up,probably beyond the point at which
you're sick of bringing it up, butthat is literally the only way things
actually happen is if things arelike at the broken record, right?
It's, they're just on repeat.
think it's, it's interestingfrom a communication standpoint,
something that I heard.
Yeah.
was that you basically have sixminutes to engage with people to

(31:07):
get them to interact in an exchangefor it to have a meaningful outcome.
Otherwise, they do what you talkedabout, Matt, they click on something
else, they pull out their phone,they're doing email, they're,
because there's no engagement there.
And I think we can all look at, you know,social media or other online behavior.

(31:27):
Like you said, Matt, even like I couldlook at myself and see how I, what I do.
Right.
And, and, and you were literallydo what everybody else does.
And we all know this.
And yet we still have like this reallyterrible Microsoft Teams interface
that we communicate over with badcameras, with bad microphones, with bad
lighting, with people stumbling through1800 bullet points in a PowerPoint.

(31:51):
Right?
We don't change any of that stuff toactually engage people, and then we
wonder why nobody wants to do anything,and it's because they're busy, and
it's because they're distracted, andit's because of all of these things.
I'm curious from, uh, like, like, numberone, yeah, you guys make a tool that
really tells a story that you can then,Come up with strategies to overcome that.

(32:13):
And that's where the, it's like, it'slike you did the work and now the work
starts after you've done the work, right?
Like that's when the actual work starts.
And I'm curious from your standpoint,like, it sounds like you got some
traction in your firm, Matt, but youguys touch 60 different companies.
What's working for those companies?
What are you hearing?
Because it's like, yeah, you cankeep coming up with ways to show.

(32:36):
Where issues could be andmaybe connecting those dots.
It's like sync times and modelhealth and computer hardware
and all the, you know, internetconnections and it's all these things.
it's personal behavior, but like,how are people actually addressing
these and getting positiveoutcomes because the bigger the
firm, I, the harder it is, right?
Just because of this stuff can be soavailable on an internet for somebody

(32:59):
to just completely ignore, right?
And it just gets lost in the,in the feed at some point.
So really curious, like, what areyou finding as ways that are actually
making Firms are finding successtrying to come up against these
challenges, solve these problems.

Yeah.
Um,

Matt Wash (33:18):
Whoa, that's a big question.

I would, I'll tell,

be a handful of things.

I would try,
to answer, although I was, Ialways, I always keep telling
Matt, um, or not keep telling that.
Like I, I, I've told Matt a fewtimes and probably a couple of other
people in the past that, you know,I'm in a, in a weird situation, um.
Because, you know, working, workingon a product and, um, then working
with clients in the, in the supportworld, I only hear from people

(33:45):
when they having, uh, some kind oftrouble or something's not working.
So I have a,
I have a skewed perspective.
if someone asks me, maybe thisis like the worst software ever,
cause that's literally what I get.
I get, you know, I only getbugs and I only get issues, but.
Um, that aside, um, every now and then,usually, usually in person, uh, when we're

(34:07):
like at a conference or an event likeAU, mentioned Alex, so like, even this
year when Alex did that presentation,he also came over to our booth, uh, we
had a little stand booth thing at the,uh, at AU, um, you know, that's when you
hear some, some of the stories and howpeople are actually, um, using the tools
and how they work, how they work in.
so, um, Couple of coupleof different ways.

(34:30):
I think there's that the people actuallyaction or utilize this data and it's like.
What Matt was trying with, what Matt wassaying with ADG that there's, you know,
you implemented some kind of solutionand then you're trying to communicate
to people and kind of ask them, or theother approach is you're just kind of
forcing people into some kind of solution.

(34:51):
Like, you give them nochoice, but to adapt to it.

Mm hmm.

what that could look like.
It's, um.
Um, let's say like Adobe, I don'twant to rain on Adobe, but Adobe, uh,
the way the licensing software hasbeen a hurdle for a lot of companies.
So this, this is a, this is a, thisis a problem that comes up with, with
majority, if not most of our, um,you know, most of our clients that we
work with when it comes to BIM, it'slike, what do we do about these rising

(35:18):
costs of licensing for Adobe products?
So there's a couple of differentapproaches that people usually take.
So when we were at HOK, um, Iremember we had the exact same
problem, no BIMBIs at the time.
So we send out questionnaires and askpeople, it's like, hey, there's this
new product by Affinity, um, called,uh, Design, Photo, and Publisher.

(35:39):
Those are three competitors toPhotoshop, Illustrator, and InDesign.
And they're only 50 perpetual license,as opposed to 25 per user per month.
So a massive cost difference,Functionality wise, they're
very similar to each other.
So at the time at HOK, I think we sentout a bunch of questionnaires, like,
you know, Google Forms and ask people,Hey, how much do you use Photoshop?

(36:01):
And can we swap you over toan Affinity photo product?
You know, everyone just, you know, blankettells you, you know, they write to, if
they touch the questionnaire, they'lltell you they're using it every day.
And, you know, they don't want youmessing with their productivity.
Standard answer.

yeah, right.

It's like, don't touch me.
Right?
So I see over the years, uh, Youknow, different companies take a
different approach to this, right?
So, we've seen the strategywhere people just automatically
disable someone's license.
So they use BIMBY's data, right?
To look at how much have youbeen using a given product.
if you haven't been using yourproduct for the last two, three

(36:39):
weeks, whatever you set that metricto be, um, there is an automatic
action that disables your license.
Right.
And then companies have been tryingto, you know, uh, software center,
uh, is one of, one of those solutionswhere they can use, uh, to kind of
give you ability to download or installany other software as a replacement.

(36:59):
Right.
So, even though they pull in yourlicense, they've given you an
option to, uh, to replace that.
So that's, uh, Kind of, you know,they leave you no choice, right?
You're like, you're not using the product.
We're pulling your license and youswap and we're swapping you over.
The other one is they pullin your license and they give
you an option to get it back.
So you can always, like if you'reon a vacation, let's say it's

(37:20):
like a false negative, you canget that license back, right?
Or, um, they just switch you overto a different product altogether.
There's no in between, right?
So, so we've seen companieslike, but there's Adobe issue.
either kind of switch the lowproductivity or people with low
usage of a given product to acompeting product because they know

(37:40):
they're not using it a whole lot.
Um, so then, you know, like if you'reopening Photoshop to resize images
and change levels on an image, you cando that with, you know, Photo app or
Paint for lack of a better product.
can do it with Affinity as well.
Like all of those functionalitiesstill exist there.
So if you're not using that product awhole lot, there's a cheap alternative.

(38:03):
Um, and then you just leave alone.
You know, your marketingdepartment, basically, right?
Because they, the high users, andthat's going to reflect in the data,
like, you can easily spot someone whoisn't, you know, publisher a lot, you
know, that's your marketing person.
So you usually just don't touch them.
Um, and then, you know, everyoneelse just can switch over or, um,

(38:26):
You know, you just switch the wholecompany and they don't have a choice
of getting their Adobe license back.
You know, I've seen that happen as well.
All right, so there's, you know,so you, like, like Matt was saying,
you get a couple of options, right?
Some people, you know, ask nicelyand you kind of hope that they're
going to switch over, go to SoftwareCenter, download the software.
just automatically pull the license forthem and, um, and force them to move over.

(38:48):
Um, so yeah,
different approaches.

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I
would say it's kind of,it's sometimes, it's
it literally is a

(39:56):
business decision.
I think everything that you mentionedthere, It says this is a business
decision, but people are attached.
At least they, they think they'reattached to, and they might even think
that they're a power user, but they'rejust doing levels commands and moving
layers around inside of Photoshop, right?
Like, like you said, you can dothat in Affinity Photo, no problem.

(40:16):
But there are a lot of people,I think, think that they're more
attached to these things than they are.
And the business actually hasto make business decisions.
I mean, when SketchUp changedtheir licensing, it was a big deal.
Adobe.
Autodesk, there's all these companiesthat have made this very expensive,
you know, from a, a software purchasingstandpoint or just subscript through
subscription models and businesseshave to deal with that in real

(40:41):
time or it gets away from you.
I mean, you could just get to the point,I guess, where you won't pay the bill,
but, but it's like, then, then you'rein a real hard place because you have
had no ramp up to using to give yourstaff an option to use something else.
And now you feel like you're kind ofa prisoner in the these You know, in

(41:01):
these software packages because you,you literally can't have anybody use
anything else because they don't knowhow to use anything else and, and all
that downtime costs way too much money.
it's, it's really interesting thatthese are the things that BIM managers
and IT managers have to deal with.
Right?
And I think one of the thingsthat I wanted to go back to that
you mentioned, Matt, was this 10million in Bluebeam usage, right?

(41:24):
Like, like time being spent inBluebeam doing a lot of repetitive
things that maybe don't needto be done so repetitively.
Maybe those can be automated.
I'm just curious, like, what didyou want to get that number to?
Do you have a goal?
Did you have a goal at ADGto get that number down to?
Some percentage of that and,and then, and then like then,

(41:44):
then you kind of extrapolatethat naturally across different
software packages in the company.
Right?
It's like, well, you know there, there'sa lot of reasons why Bimbeats really
helps businesses understandthese kinds of issues.

Matt Wash (41:56):
Yeah, our goal was 10 percent and it was obviously a nice
number because we were at 10 million.
Let's save a million bucks.
Like, it was pretty easy.
Um,

just just save 10%, not get down to 10%

Matt Wash (42:08):
just saving 10 percent is, is a million bucks.
So nice, easy numbers thateveryone can understand.
And, and in six months time, when we'vedone a year worth of SmartMark, I'm
going to be really interested to see whatthe total time and the knock on effect.
So it will be how much reductionof time we're spending in Bluebeam,
but then also the reduction in timein Revit, because that's obviously

(42:29):
the reinforcement detailing.
example, that was the duplication of doingit in Bluebeam and doing it in Revit.
So it's going to be areduction in, in Revit as well.
Um, but to Konrad's point around Adobe,two examples that I'll give on that.
So every time we have a license renewal,I go into a BIMbeats dashboard that
has every piece of software thatwe have that isn't a named user.

(42:51):
And we compare runningtime with active time.
So you can see on BIMbeats, piecesof structural analysis software,
of Strand 7, as an example.
It's not used very regularly, butit's used by a wide group of people,
and we've got to get that number oflicenses based on concurrent usage.
So, what typically happens is thatthose users will open Strand 7 at

(43:14):
8 o'clock in the morning, leaveit open until 5 o'clock at night.
So, in terms of our metric of,is it running on the machine, we
have a and then right alongsideit is how active it's been used.

you know why they're doing that, right?
They're kind of puttinga hold on the license.

Right?

If it's a floating
license solution, right?
They just reserved the license.
Like I remember when we used tohave, you know, a couple of floating,

Mm-hmm

couple of floating rider licenses.
And all of a sudden we outand the emails start flying
through the company.
It's like, Hey, can someonegive you a rider license?

Matt Wash (43:46):
Exactly the same thing.
So we have that in our intranetacross every piece of software.
So when someone does try and get intoa piece of software that they can't get
into, it just shows who's actively inthe software and who's had the software
open the longest, so that we can say,okay, this is probably someone that might
be able to jump out of that software.
So there's two reasons for doing that.
One is the psychological impact ofthe frustration of not being able

(44:08):
to get into the piece of softwarethat we're trying to reduce that to.
And the other one, just the savingof money every single month that
the CFO is now like, I love BIMbeatsbecause you are saving me money every
single month on software licensing.
Sometimes it goes the other way.
Sometimes when we are adopting a newpiece of software and the traction is

(44:29):
good, we're actually increasing, but we'reincreasing when we need to increase and
we're reducing when we need to reduce.
And it's based on the strategy of.
Are we moving to a piece of softwarethat we know is in the direction of
the strategy of the business versusa piece of software that we're not?
So as an example, we decided thatwe were phasing out AutoCAD to

(44:49):
move to Revit years and years ago.
So we said, right, this is the datethat we're going to do that handover.
And from that day onwards, everybodythat is a structural technician
will do everything in Revit.
And we gave a period of timewhere training was provided
and everybody was up to speed.
But then at a certain date, toKonrad's point, we shut it off.
And it's like, now you're onlyin Revit, you're not in AutoCAD.

(45:10):
And we have a number of engineers thatwould always go into AutoCAD to just
have a look around the model, do afew markups, make a few measurements.
And we said, right, BricsCAD, everythingthat you're doing, you can do in BricsCAD.
So we did this comparison of howmuch it was costing us in AutoCAD
when they moved to named licenses.
We looked at the flex token system and weran this comparison and we have 78, 000.

(45:34):
regular users of BricsCAD and we, Ican't remember what the number was,
but it was tens of thousands of dollarsevery year that we saved by making
that switch from AutoCAD to BricsCAD.
But it did need the transition, itdid need the training, it did need the
piece around if there's things thatit's not doing that you were doing
in AutoCAD, please let us know, butwe feel that we can make that change.

(45:54):
So, Again, it comes back to the culturalpiece around, we didn't just tell people
right from tomorrow, you've got to go andlearn this, you know, there is a training
job number or an innovation number thatyou can book time to that you can learn
how to use the new piece of software.
And I think from a financial standpoint,It's this, what is the long term
objective of what we're trying to do?

(46:15):
We can't look at this in the short termand we can't put it onto a project.
So if you were on a project and yourproject manager says, hold on a minute,
I know he's really competent in AutoCADand now we're switching to BricsCAD,
he's going to be charging to my projectand my project's going to look bad.
So the structure of billingis also like very different.
And I think just changingtact a little bit.

(46:36):
But timesheets versus actualwork is probably the thing that
I touched on at the end of mytenure at ADG, where we were really

Matt, hold on, hold on a second.
Cause on that AutoCAD, uh, to BricsCADstory, I think you're leaving out a,
uh, An important piece of informationthere, because this, this one touches
on, um, this one touches on a pieceof information that you can get by
seeing, by seeing actively who's usinga certain software and measuring how

(47:10):
much time the software is being used.
You can tailor yourlicensing strategy, right?
AutoCAD didn't offeryou floating licenses.
BricsCAD did.
part of, part of the reasonyou're switching over is because
you have people jumping in.
What you were saying is like theyjump in to do a few markups for a
few minutes and they're jumping off.
The way flex tokens work is thatyou jumping in into that model

(47:33):
for two minutes, that givesyou a license for 24 hours.
You paying for 24 hours, even if you'reusing it for a couple of minutes.
So the big chunk of savingshere is just realizing how the
software is actually being used.
You have 78 users, but you could getaway with, I think you were telling
me 15 concurrent licenses for BricsCADand you saved from, you know, I think

(47:53):
you used to pay 90, 000 a year for yourlicensing of AutoCAD because it kills
that 24 hour, like it gives you thattoken is 24 hours worth of time that
people only use a fraction of it andthe BricsCAD it went down to like 23.
1, 000 a year because now youcan float them and people use
them only for a few minutes andthey put them back into a pool.
So just being able to realize how youactually use the software, even from

(48:17):
just the perspective of, you know,how often or for how long of a period
of time allows you to tailor yourlicensing, uh, decisions towards that.
And that goes with, you know, thatgoes for any other software out there.
So like, you know, the Adobe story thatI was telling, you know, that's, that's
a story about how much you're using it.
And then you can, you can, you know, youcan be, you can safely transition people

(48:39):
over to some other piece of software,leaving the high, uh, productivity
people alone, so to speak, right?
So you don't get whatyou were worried about.
You're like, oh, they're going tobe billing all this extra time, uh,
because now they're less productive.
They're going to bebilling into my project.
They're going to look my project bad.
no, we switch over people that areless productive anyway, because they're

(48:59):
not using the software too much.
It's not going to be a big impact, butyou can do other things around this.
And I remember when we were at HOK andwe were doing this thing, um, you know,
with manager Greg, I think at the time,they actually cut a deal with, uh, with
Affinity, with Surf, going back to Adobe,that they, you know, we would switch over.
It's a big company, we'll switchthem over, but you guys got to put

(49:19):
someone on cold, you know, available.
All day, 24 seven, to support us.
Right.
So we're going to start
pooping, start transitioningpeople over to your software,
you're going to help us with that.
You know, going to get
yourself
a couple of thousand licenses from us.
Right.

Matt Wash (49:37):
Yeah, no good point.
And definitely when I looked at thatdashboard in terms of the time that
those BricsCAD users were spending inthere, we'd color coded it from, you
know, 10 minutes to 2 hours, 2 hours to4 hours, 4 to 8, and then more than 8.
Like, there was literallynothing more than 2 hours ever.
So that 2 hours for the TokenFlexsystem, I think it worked out to like,
25 per hour per user.

(49:58):
It's like,

Wow.

Matt Wash (49:59):
we can't, we can't afford to do that.
So,

Right,

And with other software, it's similar, similar story.
Right.
So like you mentioned Bluebeam, right.
There's an inherent assumption thatworking in Bluebeam from an engineering
standpoint of view is actuallybeing unproductive because we know
what people are doing in Bluebeam.
It's like, it's manual, likelaborers work, um, that then
gets to be redone again.

(50:23):
So you're doing some kind ofmarkups and somebody else has to
redo that work, in Revit or someother like altering tool, right?
AutoCAD, whatever that is.
Right.
So.
Inherently, you're assumingthat that's being unproductive.
You can actually measure that, right?
So, like I said, some of our clients,uh, come back to us, and they're, you

(50:43):
know, they're telling us a story wherethey're looking at what it is they
actually, that people actually do.
Do they do markups, or do they just,um, uh, do they just look at PDFs?
Right, because, because now,you can open a PDF in a browser.
software on any Windows machine, right?
You don't even need Bluebeam to do that,So even when they do a markup that's,

(51:06):
You know, that's from an engineeringstandpoint of view, maybe unproductive,
but from a software purchasing standpointof view, Markups is actually what
Bloomium is supposed to be used for.
And if they're in the studio session,that's actually great, right?
So if they're using the software, howit's meant to be used, then that's not
as bad as just looking at PDFs, right?
So there's like gradations to how bad,how badly you can, you know, you need

(51:28):
to switch people over or, you know,
retrieve licenses back or whatever.

right.
One thing I want to go back to is thisidea of how granular you guys can get.
And you were justtalking about it, Konrad.
So, I mean, you're talking aboutusing an app, you're talking
about using a computer, whatever.
specs are.
You, you guys have visibility intothat, but, but you, I, I think it,
it makes sense to take a minute totalk about the depth at which you can

(51:57):
actually see what's going on, becauseyou both have talked about, okay, is
the program just open on the machine?
Are they actually using it?
All the way down to, like, whatare they doing in Bluebeam?
So maybe you can give an ideaof the spectrum of granularity
that you're actually lookinginto on, on these machines

Yeah, so it really depends on the application itself, right?
So we have a couple of toolsthat generally at any software
that's running on your computer.
And like Matt mentioned, the, uh,the active window app that we have.
So that can tell you, um, youknow, what kind of software
you're running on the computer andwhether it's actively being used.
So how much time you're spending in it.
To an extent, it can tell you, um, youknow, what are you, what are you doing in

(52:40):
it, uh, depending on, uh, like, you know,if it's a browser, we can kind of tell you
which, uh, which products in the browseryou, in the browser you're using, um, but
it's not a whole lot of detail, right?
Like, you know, how much time you'respending at, you know, I don't know,
ACC hub or something like that, right?
But it's not going to be a wholelot of detail specifically of what
you're doing inside of an ACC hub.

(53:02):
That would require a specific integration,so we do have certain packages that
we've been rated with outside of Revit,obviously, so Bluebeam's one of them.
and if that given software allows youto look into specifics of what people
are doing in the application, Thenwe have that data available as well.
So Bluebeam is one of those where you cansee, um, you know, all of the actions,

(53:24):
um, or transactions as they call them,um, that you execute in the software.
So, you know, for Bluebeam you cansee, you know, every markup, every
comment, every document that you,that you edit and modify, all the
single actions, um, basically yourmouse clicks in an application.
Um, You know, we can do the samething with things like AutoCAD,

(53:45):
Revit, Rhino, Grasshopper.
So like all of the integrations thatare very specific to a software, like
if you go to our website and we havea list of like specific integrations,
those are the ones that we can see a lotmore detail, given that the application
actually allows you to dig into itthrough an API integration or some
kind of log file that we can parse all
of
those actions through.

Nice.

Matt Wash (54:08):
Sorry, just touching on that further with the Bluebeam example.
So, in terms of the
granularity, we have VivaEngagewithin, and I keep saying we, ADG.
So, a knowledge sharing communitywhere we have channels set up to,
if you've done something cool andyou want to share it with someone,
you put it into the community.
So, as an example, someone will say, Oh,I found this really cool tool in Bluebeam.

(54:29):
to do legends or whatever itmight be and they can type it.
Hey, this is how you do this thingand it's saved me a heap of time.
I used to do it like this and then peoplewill like the comment or reply back,
going, Oh, I didn't know about that.
That's really cool.
But inside of BIMbeats, we can see, well,how many more people are now using that
tool based on that community interactionand people sharing their knowledge.

(54:51):
So I think that's probablyone component that.
We hadn't dived deep into until I starteddoing this at an organizational level.
It was, yes, we're capturing all of thisdata, but what are we going to do with it?
So, if you know that legend isbeing captured in Bluebeam, ah,
well, if someone's just put in thecommunity that they're using that
feature, who else is using it?
So then we can create a dashboard of,well, let's have a look with inside

(55:13):
the business, who's taking advantagesof all of these different features.
Like productivity gains.
And okay, well, let's run a sessionon that because right now that
comment that was made in the VivaCommunity channel is only being used
by five people within the business.
Let's do a little session on that.
And what is it?
So that insight from um, Active Window.

(55:34):
Inside of Veeva communities, we'llthen start looking at, well, who's
engaging with the Veeva community?
What do we need to do to create moreengagement inside of the community?
Because we can see who'sinteracting with each of the
channels within Veeva communities.
Um, so that's really insightful.
But I, I think the other one, justtouching back on time sheet data because
of the active window, essentially Ido my time sheet at the end of the

(55:55):
week using my active window to lookat where I actually spent my time.
And I've got two examples from clientswhere one client came to me and said.
Um, I'm using, uh, I've got my timesheetdata and it's showing that this
person here is 90 percent billable.
So they've billed to 90 percent oftheir time to this billable job.
Whereas this person here is, isbilling 50 percent of their time

(56:17):
to this innovation job number.
And I need to increase their utilization.
They need to be back on billable work.
Like, can BIMbeats help me with that?
And I'm like, well, yeah, absolutely.
Because we can look at exactlywhat those two people are doing.
And is this guy automating what he'sdoing or trying to automate something
that would be Useful on a billableproject and what it turned out was that
the guy that was billing an entire dayto billable work Wasn't actually spending

(56:42):
that time on billable work and some ofthat time was spent surfing the net.
Now Obviously, BIMbeats is not a toolthat our intent is not Big Brother
to check up on people, but it's worthraising because the perception of the
leader of that business was that theperson that was booking to the billable
work was the good member of staff,whereas what was happening was the

(57:02):
other member of staff, when they weren'tbusy, were looking at ways to innovate
and looking at learning new tools.
and on their timesheet was recordingexactly what they were doing
versus someone who was a littlebit more fictitious about what
they did at the end of the week.
I found it really insightful that thecomment back from this project manager
was, I want to get more people like thisguy who's billing to my job, so I know

(57:26):
I'm charging, rather than this guy who'swasting his time, well not wasting his
time, but spending time on innovation.
And I was just like, wow, like, onceyou unpacked what was actually happening
there, there's So much more to thatstory than what you saw in the timesheet.

truth.

Matt Wash (57:41):
that, that was, that was one interesting one.
And the other one was around, um, acomputational design leader of a business.
The job was to go and look at eachof the different departments within
the business and look at ways ofautomating their traditional workflows.
And he would come in and take ajob on a project and bill the time
that he spent to do that task.
And project managers werecoming back and saying, He's not

(58:04):
billing enough hours to the job.
For us to, on charge to the client.
So, like, if it takes you two hours,can you make sure you book what it
would normally take you to do that task?
Because we're billing by the hour.
And it was like, holdon, hold on, hold on.
Like, this is crazy.
You're almost saying, can you slow down?
Because if you're doing these thingsmore efficiently and more effectively.

(58:26):
It's not looking good for us in ourtraditional way that we bill for the work
that we, we, and I was just like, okay,there's two really interesting examples
that I'd never, ever thought I would endup having to unpack through Bimbeats.
And like, obviously that then comesback to, you know, the whole charging
model and, you know, are we billingon value versus billing on hours?

(58:46):
So that's, that's a whole

Yeah,

Matt Wash (58:49):
complete new,
new topic, that one.

it always makes me laugh when, when clients, I think you were
telling me about the, I never even knewthe software existed, the jiggle software

Matt Wash (58:58):
Oh, yeah.

So some, some people run that on, uh, on their computers

Matt Wash (59:06):
I think the int

a

just to make themselves look alive.

Let's take a short break from the conversation to invite you to
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(59:34):
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(59:54):
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My thanks to Confluence for supportingthis episode of the TRXL podcast.
And now, let's get backto the conversation.
there's a way to game it,somebody will figure it
out, right?
And imagine the conversations goingback to those people who are trying
to do something innovative or actuallytracking their time right, and like

(01:00:15):
delivering this message to them andwhat it does to their morale, right?
It's like Like, there's that level ofthis too, right, that it ultimately
gets down to, and then all of a suddenthat person's looking for another job,
right, you just took, like, the personwho's actually doing the thing, Konrad's
raising his hand, that was me, right,they're actually doing the right thing,

(01:00:38):
for the right reasons, and, and they'regetting punished for it, right, uh, it's,
it's absolutely incredible, and peoplewonder why, you know, The top talent
doesn't want to stick around in, in,
many cases, right?
It's like, well, rightthere, there you have it.

Matt Wash (01:00:52):
Yeah, no, it you, you're spot on.
And, and that's why
just before I left a DG, we, wenow have the time sheet data with
the Bimbeats active window data andthat project manager or a project
manager can look at what was billedversus what was actually worked on.
So it's very, very clear between thetwo, you know, what the time sheet
says and what was actually done.

Evan Troxel (01:01:15):
Konrad, do you want to tell your story?
You raised your hand like you, I knowyou were just saying, yeah, yeah, that

Konrad Sobon (01:01:21):
But this,

but

yeah, I mean, it happens to a lot of people, right.
I

yep.

guess.
The problem is with thatbilling model, right?
I mean, that's just not sound like,I mean, I understand why managers
would look at it this way, right?
I mean, their project, the peoplethat work on their projects need to
bill for their projects, the fullamount of hours that they allocated.
Um, cause that's, you know, that'show you invoice the client and that's.

(01:01:47):
That's how you get paid.
So people like us that we're technicallyoverhead or people like us that,
you know, built to an overhead,you know, design technology project
number, we're not always welcome.
So it's hard to measure, um, it's hard tomeasure the increase in productivity, you

(01:02:08):
know, when you're working on somethingthat's going to automate a task, right?
It's just, know, it's just one ofthose, uh, it's just one of those
things that you just You know, it'shelping, you just have to take to
take the other person's word for it.
Yeah, and that, yeah, but I, I'vedefinitely lived through that story

Yeah,

where you asked to build to a project, proper project number.
um,
not some kind of research project number.

I think that this topic overall just really dovetails nicely with
an episode that I did recently with anold colleague of mine around the idea of
dedicated technology training in a firm.
And you guys have mentioned theterm a few times, digital footprint.
it, it's like we're gettingmore and more to the point.
where like that's the only footprintthat we're actually measuring, right?

(01:02:56):
Like it's, it's all digitalall the time, all the tools.
I mean, of course, there's thehuman resources side of things.
And there's, there's all, thereare other parts to a business, of
course, but so much of the businessof AEC depends on the digital.
Right?
Like a hundred percent, And so, atsome point, we don't call it digital

(01:03:18):
footprint, we just call it footprint.
Just like, I think at some point,you don't call it digital practice,
you just call it practice, right?
It's like, it's so obvious, I think,to people like you guys, who are
working in this every single day,that like, this is how we do it,
and it's the only way that we do it.
We're never going back to anolder way of doing it, and
this only progresses forward.
So, dovetailing into this, Training idea.

(01:03:40):
I'm just curious from your standpoint,how often are you guys, you
know, because we talked about thestruggle of implementation, and I'm
curious from your standpoint witha view into many different firms.
you could kind of give an overall healthmetric to the, firms that are out there
that are actually are proactively takingit upon themselves to train their staff

(01:04:03):
for new workflows, for new ways of doingthings, for getting rid of the problems
that you are identifying with tools likeBIMBEATS, where it's like, well, man,
there's way better ways to do this toyour, to the communities example that
you were talking about, Matt, right?
Where it's like somebody posts atip and then you can actually see.
If people are, you know, first you getlike kind of the thumbs up responses to

(01:04:26):
the tip and then you get actual usageof, okay, there's a new way to do this.
That was way better than I knewbecause a lot of times it's just
people don't know what they don't know.
Right?
So from your standpoint, kind ofa window into different firms.
Where would you kind of grade us on ascale, I don't know, A through F, let's
just even say, or 1 to 10, of, of,training their staff so that they are

(01:04:50):
progressing, so that they are developingprofessionally, but also raising the level
of
what's achievable in these businesses.

Matt Wash (01:04:59):
I guess the short answer to that is that.
We're 1 to 10 and A to F, andthere is no middle ground or
there is no kind of happy medium.
I think there are companies thatare doing it really, really well,
and I think there's companiesthat aren't addressing it at all.
I think a lot of people think that havingBimbeats in solves all the problems,

(01:05:21):
and that just by having it, all theproblems go away, and that that training
component isn't necessarily a problem.
as important as they thought it would be,or the additional work that's required.
It, like, BIMbeats is not youput it into the system and
everything magically improves.
Like, it, it still needsthat training component.
Um, I would say that, For BIMBEATS, uspartnering with organizations that provide

(01:05:45):
that training is probably somethingthat we should probably consider because
that isn't something we do, and thenif that training is effective, then
BIMBEATS is a mechanism for measuring.
that effectiveness.
So if companies are worried about theamount of time it takes or the investment
in training, I guess there's theinvestment in software and new software,
there's the investment in training,but then it's that, well, measuring

(01:06:08):
what was the effectiveness of thetraining, like, are we actually improving
based on whatever that training is?
So if we take the example of inplace families, you can go to the
BIM Beast dashboard and say, right,these people are the most frequent.
Uh, in place family users.
These people are in the interiors team.
They probably need sometraining with loadable families.

Matt.
Get specific.

Matt Wash (01:06:28):
It's not like, it's not like it's a true story.
This is,

names.

Matt Wash (01:06:31):
know,
this, this, this, yeah, like, so,

I'm talking to you.
I'm talking to you, Konrad

Matt Wash (01:06:37):
but
the, but the bit, the bit that we don'tdo is then have that automatic, well
here's the training you need to do toimprove on that thing and then come
back to say, well okay, you're no longerdoing in place families or the reduction
of in place families has come down.
So I think we rely on the trainingcomponent within SiteEach.
And I think it comes back to lookingat short term financial success

(01:07:04):
versus long term health of bothyour business and your bottom line.
And I think a lot of people get scaredby the upfront investment that's required
because it isn't a quick fix and itdoes take time to embed that into the
culture that this is about continuouslearning organization, etc, etc.
I think a lot of peoplesay that's what they do.
But I think.

(01:07:25):
a lot of the time it comes back to,it takes more than just capturing the
software, providing the insight, theaction, really comes back to training,
um, for competency, uh, and increasingthe skill set of the individual.
I think to a point, um, Nerva, who wason your podcast a while back, said,

Mm

Matt Wash (01:07:43):
um, the difference between innovation and evolving.
I think sometimes I possibly have madethe mistake in, Continuously talking
about innovation and people believing thatthat's a nice to have or only, you know,
a small part of the business does this.
And I think it needs to changeto the language needs to be
it's, well, this is evolving.
This, this is an evolution of every role.

(01:08:03):
It is not a design technologygroups job to do this.
This is the future of an architect.
The future of an engineer iscomplementary digital skills.
That's what it is.
And, and it's not, we have aninnovation team that does that
and we have an architect to.
is creative.
We have an engineer who engineers.
We have a technician that draws or models.

(01:08:23):
Like, I think those lines have gotto blur, and they are blurring, um,
particularly with the, the ability toadopt new technology and how much easier
it is now than it, than it was before.
So I think that's, that's reallyimportant, that training aspect,
but in answer to your question, 1to 10 and A to F, like it's, it's

(01:08:45):
really across the entire board.

So one more thing I want to expand on, um, a little bit
when it comes to training, cause Iremember again, back in my BIM manager
days, I was responsible for, um, andI remember doing this regularly with,
with staff in the office, uh, whenwe were training people on, you know,
Revit is an example at the time, right?
We were Just, you know, we'll grab fouror five people that were on any given

(01:09:11):
project, pick a topic for that day.
know, keynoting today, or, you know,you mentioned in place family modeling
and like good practice for familymodeling, or parametric modeling,
whatever the case was, right?
And you put them in the trainingroom and, you know, talking through
a topic and then they go off.
A couple of things that was, that wasbothering me ever since then that was

(01:09:35):
wrong with that image that kind of,you know, right now with BIMbies you
can, you can vastly improve on, right?
So first thing is, A, we're justblindly training everyone, right?
People that are actually really goodwith, with Revit already knew, Those
things, there was no need to wastetheir 30 minutes or an hour of their
time by putting them through thesame, same training session, right?

(01:09:58):
So, like you were saying, now you cansee specifically, you can run through
the entire and see who is making inplace families on a regular basis, right?
Pick top 10 of those people in theorganization, organize training
for them specifically, right?
And that's the difference.
You're actually training where thereis a need to be trained, right?

(01:10:21):
then the other side of this is thosepeople were now trained, you know,
you know, when that training occurred,can track the progress from that
point from that day forwards, theyactually changing their behavior?
If they're not.
Bring it back into the trainingsession until it sticks,

off that license.

kill or kill that license, but so, so it gives you to, you know, that
upfront, you figuring out and you not, soit wasn't just like, I would run through
separate specific topics that I had,but there were the same topics and with
every team, I just kind of ran throughthe same thing over and over again.
if in place families were never a problem?

(01:11:03):
And I just kept training everyone on.
in place families.
I would, I'd never even knew if that'swhat they needed to be trained on.

measure something in order to come up with a strategy to address it.
Right.
It's

Yeah.
Yeah.

have the ability to do.
And I think something that
Matt, you said earlier waslike, everybody read these gems.
Right.
And, and it's like, you gaveit the special thing, this
designation on the internet.
And it was also probably justlike a really short and to
the point kind of a thing.
And again, like, think aboutpeople's behavior, think
about their attention span.
And.

(01:11:35):
I also think about the preciousnessin which a lot of training material
is created and it's like polishedand it's edited so perfectly it
doesn't have to be like that.
Like it literally, I think, in order tobe effective just needs to be done fast.
And, and, don't try tosolve everybody's problem.

(01:11:55):
Don't try to explain all of it.
leave room for that engagementpart that I talked about earlier.
Ask questions afterward, ask followups, where do we, and then we can
decide where we want to go next withthis, but don't be super precious
about creating this content, butI do think you need to create.
Training material that lives somewhereso that people can look it up when
they need it, because live trainingdoesn't work all the time for everybody.

(01:12:18):
It's not always the right place,not always the right time.
And, and I think, you know, alot of our business is like that.
Like, we're just filing stuff away,waiting till the day that we use it, but
it's still nice to have those resources.
In addition to that, that maybearen't so precious, but they're
timely because they're there whenI, I just need to look things up and
figure out how to do things better.
Or somebody posts about it andsays, man, this worked for me.

(01:12:41):
here was a quick screen recording, like.
Run with this and just see what happens,but I think I think all of these things
kind of lead to like it's it doesn'teven sound like effective training,
but it totally is effective training.
This is how people consumemedia these days, right?
It's like the doom scrolling.
It's just flipping through videos.
And if you have the ability todo that in your organization with
training, like that's a valuablething for people to be filling their

(01:13:05):
brains with when they're when they're
out looking for.
You know, trying to filla little bit of time.

Matt Wash (01:13:10):
Yeah.
And, and I think with this podcast,it's going to be interesting if I
talk to clients saying that we've donethis podcast to then look to see who
listened to it for the entirety andwho listened to the first 10 minutes

Bimbeats analytics on the
podcast listeners.
I love it.

Matt Wash (01:13:23):
walked out after 10 minutes because the attention span was too short.

Impossible.
You're way too engaging, you guys.
Well, and, and back to that point,like, like delivering, like,
this is very conversational.
It's like, I'm not doing a monologue andthere's no agenda to this podcast, right?
We, we literally don't know whatwe're going to talk about next.
I've said that many times on this podcast.
I don't know the next wordsthat are coming out of my mouth

(01:13:48):
and you probably don't either.
And I think that alone makes it waymore listenable because it's authentic.
It's a conversation.
And actually that now that reminds mesomething that you were talking about,
Matt, and I think we can wrap up.
With this was just this whole idea ofaccountability in the system, right?
It's like you, you identify theproblem, you produce a little bit
of training, and then you watch andyou see if the behavior is changing.

(01:14:11):
And kind of going back to maybe, youknow, when I was a BIMbeats customer
at HMC, right, back in the early daysof BIMbeats, and it was like, just
getting the software is not enough.
Okay, now we, we identify thesethings and now we go proactively to
people and we say, hey, I noticedthat this isn't working for you.
How can we help?

(01:14:31):
Um, that to me, built, starts tobuild personal accountability because
now that we've addressed it, nowwe're going to be checking in on it.
Right?
And in the organization, like, as abusiness, we're not a family, like,
have accountability, and they're not abusiness, are not, like, my son is not
responsible for doing business developmentand bringing in money every month, right?

(01:14:55):
But there's accountability there.
It definitely shouldapply in the business.
Right?
And so when it comes to like spendingthe money on the software, spending the
time to do the training, following up onthat, making sure it's actually landing
and working and we are getting better atdoing what we do should be totally normal.

(01:15:16):
And I think like that, it's just kindof a call to action to, you know, a
lot of, there's a lot of people whowork in these businesses who want
to see accountability, but it's sohard to get that to actually happen.
Um, and I just wanted to bring itup, see if you guys had any ideas
around that, because I, I do thinkthat you're building a platform
that enables accountability, right?

(01:15:36):
I don't know how.
That's actually working out.
I'm sure it's working.
Again, it's probably allacross the spectrum, right?
Uh, there's some that are really good atit and some that are really bad at it.
But, that is a, it is something to, toreally take notice of and, and, and learn
how to use that leverage in the business
to make, so that things actuallydo get better over time.

Matt Wash (01:15:57):
Yeah, I totally agree.
And I'll go back to Nate's articlethat he published this morning, uh,
where he talks about the accountabilityisn't just on the tech people or
the person that is responsiblefor innovation within a business.
Like, that's not enough.
And I think it's 84 or 86 percentof digital transformations fail.
And I think it comes back to thataccountability where, yes, the

(01:16:19):
accountability for the strategysits with the tech people.
The Chief Digital Officer.
Executing that strategy is theaccountability of everyone within
the organization, and it has tobe both bottom up and top down.
And I think quite often thebit in the middle gets missed.
I think at kind of leadership leveland C suite, you come up with what
you think is a business strategy thataligns with your digital strategy, and

(01:16:41):
everybody is in agreement with that.
You have young, passionate people atan individual level who want to do it.
But then the project directors and thenational discipline leads who have all
these other things that they have to worryabout and, you know, but essentially all
of this still comes back to commercialgain and commercial gain, whether that

(01:17:03):
is retaining someone that hasn't left thebusiness and the cost of retaining them.
Like getting someone else in.
If someone leaves for me, everything stillcomes back to a commercial benefit to
the business, but it's, and, and this isprobably a good, good, good way to finish.
And this comes back to what we spoke aboutlast time, Evan, about it's the health of
the business and the health of the people.

(01:17:24):
And if you've got healthy people,you have a healthy business.

Well said.
Conrad, any, any finalthoughts when it comes to this?
Thanks.

Yeah.
I mean, so you guys, you guys saida few times that, you know, you get
the data, but it's up to you whatyou're going to do with this, right?
So this transparency, um,cuts both ways, right?
So there's, it's,
you can do positive things or youcan do negative things with it.
You know, and often, oftentimes in someof the examples that we've had with,

(01:17:55):
uh, that I've seen with clients, someof the stories they tell us is, you
know, people get used to it, right?
It's, you know, it might feel like, um,you know, it's a little, I don't know, a
little too much in the beginning, but I'vehad some clients tell us that, you know,
they had this, uh, They had this workflowset up where IT was getting emailed

(01:18:17):
with a list of computers that need to beupdated because they're on the outdated
version of some software or whatnot.
They were, and they were gettingthese automated emails from
BIMbeats every, um, every week.
And originally they would get.
a little annoyed, a little pissed offin the beginning because it's like, hey,
you just keep sending me this stuff.
I know I have to do this, but, but that,you know, over time they got used to
it, but it created that accountabilitythat we just talked about, right?

(01:18:40):
It's like, yeah, you're not goingto keep getting those emails if you
actually get out there and, uh, youknow, get those updates pushed out
and, know, get used to it, right?
So it's not, um, I'm actually only,uh, personally, I think that, um, You
know, that you can, you can throw moreresponsibilities at people in there.

(01:19:00):
Um, that's a good thing.
You know, they usually respondin a very positive way.
so, having, having that kind of data,having that kind of information that
allows you to, expect and demandmore, uh, from people is a good thing.
That's a positive.
I like to see that, youknow, the companies that I

(01:19:21):
worked at back in the days.
Um,
I'd be excited.

Agreed.
And I, I think it, it, uh,obviously people want to show up.
I, I mean, I shouldn't say obviously,but I think most people show up
and they want to do a good job

Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.

how they can do their job better.
And so kind of
going into those conversations with thatattitude and just saying, Hey, like I
noticed this and this is a struggle.
Yes.
No.
Like, give me some feedback.
Tell me what you're, what,what this is like for you.
Yeah.
That's a great way to enterinto these conversations, right?
Give them the benefitof the doubt, of course.
And I know a lot of people, there'sdefinitely IT people out there.

(01:20:01):
I mean, there's people You blamedthe interior designer for making
in place family, so I'm blamingthe IT people for the way they
approach conversations sometimes.
Like, Konrad, you even talkedabout this with your role emerging
and evolving through time.
It's like you, you, you Youhad to deal with people in
your role at BIMbeats, right?
And it's like, Oh, how do I do this?

(01:20:22):
Right?
It's, it's not natural necessarilyfor people on the technology side
to, for communication skills or forinterpersonal skills or soft skills
or however you maybe want to put it.
And there's, there's trainingout there for that too.
You can learn those skills.
And so I think just saying a few ofthose things out loud, it's like, let's
just actually step back and remember,like, people do want to do a good job.

(01:20:46):
Give them the benefit of the doubt.
Let's all get bettertogether kind of a thing.
And, and understand yourpurpose in this business.
Like getting, getting back to thisbusiness use case that we're all
on the same team pushing forward.
I, all of those are kind oflike regrounding kind of.
You know, maybe cliches, but at the sametime, like, I think it's worth saying
those because I think a lot of timessome technology people lose sight of

(01:21:10):
those things and they just go in gunsblazing and they, they, you know, they're
because they're fed up and, and they'vekeep having to deal with the same things
over and over again, or they're onlydealing with the crap, Konrad, right?
Like all I get are bug reports.
All I get are the negatives.
Um, and so like, let's just rememberlike people that is, talking

(01:21:30):
about people we're talking about.
People who in architecture generallyare up for a challenge, like you
were just saying, Konrad's like,man, I, you want to start every
day with a little challenge, right?
And, and get your brain working.
So all of those things, I'll get offmy soapbox now, but I think those are
all we're saying, you know, especiallyif you're in a leadership position,
like to really instill in yourteam, who's going to be having these

(01:21:51):
conversations with people as well.
Like, treat, treat people with respect,treat people as people, and, and, and
build accountability the right way.
right?
Not just the guns blazing kind of a way.

Yeah, presenting these things as opportunities
and, you know, just being ableto recognize them afterwards too.
That's like an important part of it too.
Like people will step up to achallenge, they'll try to do a good job.
That's, that's, I don't know, that'slike a default mode of operation
for, you know, with the folksthat I used to, um, work with.

(01:22:24):
And I believe that's, that'show most of the people are.
Uh, but you have to be able torecognize them afterwards too.
So,

Absolutely.

so long as you're doing
that.
They're going to be, they'regoing to be just, fine.

Matt Wash (01:22:37):
I just, sorry, I just wanted to end on one thing just because it
made me think about the hybrid worksituation and flexible work of should we
be in the office, should we be at home?
And I don't have the answer to this,but I want to give a shout out to
Havad, um, because Havad put me on toa book called Outcomes, Not Outputs.
And I think if we look at that, thenusing BIMbeat's data and anecdotal

(01:22:59):
evidence as well, that measure onoutcomes, don't measure on outputs.
Like, because there are storiesof you're working from home.
You're only doing six hours a day today.
You're not doing the eight hourswhen you come in the office.
Who cares?
What's the outcome?
And I think we need to move forwardlooking at outcomes, not output.
And it probably relates back tothat booking two hours to the

(01:23:20):
job rather than six hours becauseyou did six hours worth of work.
I think focusing on outcomes needs tobe the way that we, we move forward.
Um, and if you're judginghybrid working, judge on output.
Oh, sorry, Outcomes, not Output.

Yeah, it goes right back, another dovetail into our
previous conversation, Matt, right?
Healthy people, healthy business, right?
So, well, thank you both for takingthe time to catch us up on what's
been going on with Bimbeats, andit's been a wonderful conversation.
I hope we can do it again in the future.
Let's not wait four and a halfyears, Konrad, till the next time.
But, Matt, congrats on your new role.

(01:23:58):
I hope you can do wonders with,uh, with scaling Bimbeats, and,
uh, I wish you both the best.
Thanks for
taking the time to hang out with me

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