181: ‘Densities of Information’, with Matt Jezyk

Episode Transcript
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Evan Troxel (00:07):
Welcome to the TRXL Podcast.
I'm Evan Troxel.
Today.
I welcome Matt Jezyk to the show.
You might recognize his namefrom my recent campfire episode.
Ian Keough where he shared thestory of Dynamo, an episode I
highly recommend checking out.
If you haven't already, you canfind that link in the show notes.
Matt has been quietly shaping thetools and technologies that have

(00:30):
transformed the AEC industry with overtwo decades of deep experience, and he
is played a leading role in the earlydays of developing some of the most
influential platforms in the space.
Autodesk Revit.
Dynamo and Project Refinery to namea few, pushing the boundaries of
computational and generative design longbefore they became formidable tools.

(00:54):
He began his journey in architecture, butquickly moved to the software side as a
product manager at Charles River Software.
Also known as Revit TechnologyCorporation, which was, as we all
know, acquired by Autodesk earlyin the two thousands there, he
served as a senior engineeringmanager and focused on creating next

(01:15):
gen solutions for AEC workflows.
But he didn't stop there.
Well, he did stop there for almost 17years, but then he took his expertise
to Tesla and Rivian where he helpedbuild the systems, powering their
smart factories, applying his knowledgeof design, automation, and software
at an entirely different scale.

(01:36):
Many lessons were learned aswe'll hear about in this episode.
Now as co-founder and VP of productat Motif, Matt is back in AEC
bringing his journey full circle.
He's working with a team that isbuilding a new kind of platform for
the architectural design process.
In typical fashion for guests onthis show, it's forward thinking,

(01:57):
ambitious, and rooted in the belief thatbetter tools lead to better outcomes.
Through every chapter of his career, Matthas championed automation, creativity,
and cross-disciplinary collaboration.
He has a knack for sensingwhere the industry is going
and helping it get there.
Faster.
As usual, there's an extensive amount ofadditional information in the show notes

(02:19):
to explore, so be sure to check those out.
They are, of course, in your podcast appif you're a paid member or if you're a
free member, you can find them on TRXL.
Co.
By the way, Matt does some screen sharingduring this episode showing motif.
So check it out onYouTube if you're curious.
And while you're there, hit thesubscribe button to let me know

(02:42):
that you're a fan of the show.
On YouTube just search for TRXL podcast.
That's TRXL podcast.
Or find the link in theshow notes page at TRXL.
Co.
All right, now without any further ado, Ibring you my conversation with Matt Jezyk.

(03:07):
Matt, great to have you on the podcast.
Welcome.

Matt Jezyk (03:10):
Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
Appreciate it.
I

it's been a long time coming.
We've, we've been you know,passing in the hallways at
Autodesk University over the years.
Uh, been stalking you on LinkedIn foryears, uh, and you've been probably
listening to episodes of the podcast.
And now here we finally are inthe same place at the same time.
It's great.

Matt Jezyk (03:29):
yep.
Same thing.
I've really, I've enjoyedlistening to your podcast.
I, I do have to admit that I, I,to them a little bit in like 1.25,
1.5
is a little fast, but 1.25
is like my preferred and, but that Ireally like the flow and how you're the,
well, number one, the guest that you have,but also just the, the line of inquiry
you go down is, is really nice to hear.

On my other podcast, just to put little context around,
I, I totally get the speed thing.
I listen to most podcasts at one, 1.25
or 1.5,
but I had another guest on my other showsay, um, I go to sleep with you guys every
night.

Matt Jezyk (04:06):
That's so funny.

And it's like, oh,
that's, I
don't do that.
I don't listen to podcasts in bed,uh, because I just, I don't, I don't
need any extra stimulation, butthere are some voices out there that
I could, I could see that happeningdepending on who you're listening to.
And it, and then you wouldn'twant to be listening at 1.25.
You would want to be listeningat, you know, the, the low D
of tones of the, the golden
microphone and the deep voice

Matt Jezyk (04:28):
Exactly.
Yeah.

Anyway, I thought that was hilarious, but great to
have you, and I'm really excitedto have a conversation about.
Motif and, and what you've beenup to and you've had this really
interesting path leading to motif.
And motif is like this new thing, this,this, this new thing that's coming out.
And, and, uh, we will definitely getto that point, but I would love it if

(04:52):
you would just kind of tell your storyabout how you got from architecture
to various places, maybe back toarchitecture, um, but you've had this
circuitous path over the last decade plus.
Tell
us about it.

Matt Jezyk (05:06):
Great.
Yeah.
Uh, so my background, I wentto school for architecture, for
building architecture, and then.
I was always into computers as well,so I ended up getting a concentration,
sort of a minor in computerscience and then business as well.
Um, and that served me pretty well.
So I practiced in Boston for a coupleyears and then ended up joining

(05:28):
a startup that, um, had a reallymysterious name called Charles
River Software, um, back in the day.
And that turned into Revit.
Uh, so there was a small startup ofmostly computer science mathematician
people that had built manufacturingcad, mechanical CAD tools.
Um, one called, uh, pro engineer,and then they were doing the

(05:50):
same thing in, in architecture.
Uh, so I was one of the firstarchitects that was hired in that team.
And, uh, we worked together andbuilt, um, this thing and then
got acquired by Autodesk anddid a bunch of stuff after that.
Um, so my life has been, um, building.
Software for architects and engineersmore so than building buildings myself.

(06:12):
But the good thing about that is thatyou're able to work with people all
around the world that are solving someof the hardest problems out there.
And, um, you get exposed to that and,uh, can collaborate with people, you
know, like yourselves and, and others,um, that, uh, you know, a normal
architect that might be working onone particular building might not,
might not have had that experience.

(06:32):
So, so yeah.
Uh, so I've built Revit, built abunch of other things like, uh,
computational design tools likedynamo, generative design, simulation
tools, structural analysis, energyanalysis, um, fabrication tools, web
cloud, all that kind of fun stuff.
And, um, and now we're doing it in Motif.

(06:53):
Um, it's a new company.
Uh, we started about two yearsago and, um, some industry
veterans kind of came together.
Um, but interestingly, all ofus that were the founding team.
We, we came from Autodesk, butwe all left and went into various
manufacturing, uh, spaces for a while.

(07:15):
So I, I went into the electric vehiclemanufacturing space for about five, six
years, um, and learned deeply about likewhat manufacturing was all about at scale.
So how do you not just build oneof something, which is what we're
really good at in architecture,but how do you build thousands or
a hundred thousands or millions ofsomething, uh, and get that efficiency.

(07:36):
Um, and then of course, like scaling.
Um, the, one of the conceptswe were working on there was
the, the factory as a product.
Like how do you make factories quicklyand efficiently and scale them in order
to make more and more of a, of particularproducts like vehicles or batteries.
So, so kind of like learning how to, I.

(07:59):
Take the best practices formanufacturing and apply them back into
architecture as sort of the longerstory arc that I'm interested in.
Um, but for motif, like what we'retrying to do is coming back from this
other industry in manufacturing, howdo we build a brand new platform that,
uh, starts to advance how architecturalpractice works, how engineering practice

(08:20):
works in the building industry, uh, ina, in a similar way to how manufacturing
has changed over the last 10, 15 years.

Yeah, it's a, it's an interesting kind of path, like I
was saying a minute ago, how you'vegotten to where you are and actually.
Kind of proactively going out ofarchitecture to learn these things and
then bring those back into architecture.
And I'm just curious kind of whatyou have brought back from those
learning experiences, but we'veseen a lot of, you know, the, these

(08:52):
kinds of factories for architecture.
Do a lot of, you know, funding,venture capital funding.
We've seen a lot of them crumbleunder the weight of architecture and
manufacturing and just
kind of

Matt Jezyk (09:05):
Yeah.

side
of all
that.
And I'm curious, kind of your, beforewe, we get into the motif side of
things, like can you share from, fromyour perspective that that is really
bringing value to where you are now?
Like, what are the le the hardlessons, I mean, there's a ton
of hard lessons in there, right?
Am am I wrong?

Matt Jezyk (09:23):
No, I think the, the, the trail of, uh, sort of modular
construction, panelized construction,prefab in general is littered with these
sort of corpses of startups that havetried to do something over the last 20
years and all for the best intentions.
Uh, I think the problemsare not technological.

(09:44):
A lot of them come down to the fracturedvalue chain in architecture to begin
with and, and different buildingtypologies that have different like
kind of cost constraints and sort ofefficiencies and, and just the mass
production aspect of it in general.
Um, you know, so it's like if you'regonna build, like basically every building
is like a beta if you think about it.
Like there's only one of it, right?
So.

Prototype.
Yeah.

Matt Jezyk (10:06):
It's a prototype.
So like how do you gain the learningsthat you do the first time you do that?
How do you apply thatagain and again and again?
Uh, and that's where you see, youknow, things that are repetitive.
So hospitality, residential, retail, um,anything that has a site adapt aspect like
a prototype store and then a site adapt.

(10:26):
Like there's a learning and sortof efficiencies and, you know, you
lock in, um, vendors and, and, uh,manufacturers to build things for you.
WeWork would be a good example of that.
I think that in their prime, theywere knocking out an amazing amount
of square footage just from likean interior fit out standpoint.
And they, at some point they had likeabout two and a half or three curtain

(10:48):
wall, um, plants, like manufacturingplants locked in to say, just to
generate the storefront that theyuse for their interior partitions.
So that's a case that isn't.
It's not really what you hear aboutwhen you think about like, you know, uh,
industrialized construction or things thatare, have to do with prefab or modular.
Um, but that's the real thing.

(11:09):
Like if you take a vertically integrated,uh, building typology, you take
something like, like, you know, uh,like a WeWork kind of space or take,
uh, like Hilton Hotels or Marriott orsomething like that, or you know, how
many Starbucks are there, apple stores,if you can lock in the suppliers and
the manufacturing process and theefficiencies that you get out of standard

(11:29):
details and just kind of like roll themout, that's where it gets interesting.
Um, but sadly that, you know, if youthink about it as an architectural critic,
then that just leads to the, you know,bland verification and sort of, uh, urban
sprawl of like the sameness everywhere.
But I mean, that, that's kindof where the sweet spot is.
I think right now.
Interestingly, I don'tthink residential ever, I.

(11:50):
It took off.
I mean, besides like the initial kindof like Levittown things back in the,
you know, early fifties, um, you know,the, and, and you know, production
home builders of course too now, but

Yep.

Matt Jezyk (12:01):
the things that you would think of as like high
design, architecturally significantbuildings that are residential
that are able to be mass produced.
Um, I think that there'sstill a big opportunity there
that hasn't been addressed.
I mean, you mentioned some of the,the larger flame outs in the past.
Um, you know, Katera would come to mind.
There were, um, you know, heavilycapitalized, amazing ideas.

(12:26):
Um.
Ran into issues around scaleand production and efficiency,
and also just building typology.
Like how do you focus on oneparticular type of a market?
Like it could be like, I think theywere trying to focus on mid, mid-rise
residential in like the Southwest, likeokay, like nail that market and don't
try and do it in the Pacific Northwest.
It's just different or thesoutheast and different, you know,

(12:48):
like, uh, sort of densities of,of units and things like that.
That's, that's the problem islike, it's not a one size fits all.
Um, and I think that's one ofthe siren songs that people
hear about in manufacturing.
They're like, oh, I know how tomake widgets, or I know how to
make these, um, you know, sortof, uh, circuit boards at scale.
And then I just gonna scalethat up and make a building.

(13:08):
It doesn't really work that way.
Uh, be, be for all the reasons thatyou, that you've mentioned before.

Yeah.
It's interesting to think about how thesecompanies have failed by trying to be too.
Too much like they did.
They're just trying to take on morethan like, like your example of
just focusing on this one thing.
Do you think that that's really coming,like that pressure is coming from the
funding mechanism of these startupswhere it's like you've gotta be this
a hundred x return kind of a companyfor those, for those VCs and, and,

(13:39):
because I don't know if that's, evenif it's possible to achieve that by
being so focused on these a market anda region and a delivery type, right?
It's like whatever those componentsthat make up what this modular,
prefab companies are doing,it's like, no, we can do it all.
And I think that by thinking we cando it all, gets really, really like,

(14:03):
it just waters it down and makes itreally difficult then to solve for
all those different markets and allthose different environments and.
I mean, Lance Auto came on the show along time ago and said, there's something
like 30,000 different municipalitiesin the US and everyone's got a
different version of
code adoption, for

Matt Jezyk (14:21):
Yeah,

Like

Matt Jezyk (14:21):
exactly.

are wild in in the, the architectural practice.
And so the construction industry.
So it's, it's really that as soonas people start to try to go wide,
it's like, then you really notice it.
That, that it kind of
tends to fall apart.

Matt Jezyk (14:38):
Yep.
Yeah, I think, I think that's true.
I think the, the standard VC sortof mantra is, is like, you know,
they're looking for the, theunicorns, the kind of 10 x or 20 Xers.
So if, if you put in.

said a hundred, that's probably not the right number.

Matt Jezyk (14:50):
I mean, yeah, hundreds are great.
Yeah.
But,
but like, I think, you know, I meanthe, the, the, the fact of the matter
is for VCs, it's like, you know,and you can look up the metrics.
It's like, say they put money in20 companies, they really just
need one hit, and then the restof them are not gonna do that.
Great.

Yeah.

Matt Jezyk (15:06):
but how big is that hit?
And that's where the return, like,if you, if you take, you know, an
iPhone app like that, the cost ofgoods for that is relatively low.
And the, the sort of size of thatmarket, the total addressable
market, or Tam, can be very large.
Uh, and if you monetize that, you know,it's like just a money printing machine.
That doesn't happen in, you're dealingwith like real physical products and

(15:28):
real big things that take time andpermits and zoning and people, you know,
it's just, it doesn't scale that way.
So I think that's usually the kindof natural limit or constraint in
some of these is you have a heavilyregional, uh, you know, market.
You have a, a.
Particular set of buildings ortypologies that will work well and

(15:50):
lend themselves to mass production.
And then you have the sort ofupside of like, who's gonna
buy it, who's gonna use it?
Uh, I think that there are solvableproblems there, but I don't think,
um, traditional venture capital isreally the best kind of fuel or funding
mechanism for a lot of those right now.
I mean, there, there are some VCsthat are not interested in the

(16:13):
quick return, a kind of two tothree to four or five year return.
They're interested in a 10 year return.
And I think at that scale and at thattime horizon, I think it is possible.
Uh, and also, I mean, there's otherkind of, you know, I hate to say
it, but like resiliency at a, at a.
A national level or at agovernment funding level is useful.

(16:35):
Like if you think about how do yourecover from a natural disaster, how
do you, how do you build housing inthe southeast after horrible, you know,
hurricanes that happened or in LA recentlyafter the fires like that, there could
be kind of an instigation or a kickkickstarting from a funding mechanism
at the state or municipal or even thefederal level that could, um, give a

(16:57):
signal to the market to say, Hey, we'reinterested in, in doing something there.
Um, that's actuallyhappening in other countries.
Um, in Canada, in Vancouver, there's areally great kind of public, private,
uh, thing that's happening with,uh, a company called intelligent,
um, intelligent factories.
Intelligent cities.
Yeah.
Uh, so that's a really great model.
And there's some other ones inEurope too that are amazing.

(17:19):
But in the US I think it's a littletricky, but I think that it is something
that people will crack over time.
But for right now, um, you know,as you mentioned, the, the.
It seems like there's this siren songfor high-end residential, uh, high
design, high-end residential and, andfactory built or kind of prefab modular.
Um, but I'm not sure ifthat's really where, uh, like

(17:43):
someone's gonna win, I guess.
And it's, it's probably gonna be moreon the, um, I, and I think WeWork is
like one of those examples that worked.
I think, um, I hate to say it,but like, re retail is a good one.
Um, you know,
they're,
you know, there's these old,old, uh, examples of you could,
you used to be able to buy anIrish bar in shipping containers.

(18:06):
Like you, you, they would literally designand build an Irish bar and you could put
it in two shipping containers and shipit to like Malaysia and set up an Irish
bar just 'cause it's in a kit, you know?
So like,
why, you know, that's basicallythe same way that like Starbucks
works or like Apple stores work.
It's like they're, they'renot really all site built.
There's a bunch of pre,pre-created components that.

(18:27):
Show up on site and getpositioned in the right way.

For the ones that go into like a
strip mall or or what, or, yeah.
Yeah.

Matt Jezyk (18:33):
yeah.

type of a
project where it's an
existing framework and then they just needto set it up a box within a box kind of a
thing.

Matt Jezyk (18:39):
Yeah.
exactly.
So, but yeah, but I think, but I thinkthat in, in that space, you, you can
use technology to kind of tie backto this and software to identify the
opportunities, uh, and, and look at,you know, zoning and look at other kind
of infill, you know, uh, sort of siteopportunities and, and what's possible.
And, you know, obviously parametricallyconfigure things and figure out cost and

(19:03):
efficiency, that there's a couple startupsthat are doing interesting work there.
Uh, and then the other side of itis just figuring out how to take a
design and break it down into smallerpieces that can be fabricated.
So I, it's a solvable technologyproblem, but that's not the constraint.
It's more on the, the market andthe, the financials behind it.

Yeah.
I mean, it's a, it's like I think aboutlike the automotive industry, the EV
industry that you are in, and kind ofthe repeatability of those and, and.
You know, like for, for example,you look at some of these cars
and like, they don't change the
model if they don't have
to, right?

Matt Jezyk (19:37):
Mm-hmm.

especially in the
EV space because it's all about that
factory

Matt Jezyk (19:41):
Mm-hmm.

about kind
of stretching that as long as possible.
Um, and, and in architecture, Imean, you're talking about like
really wild and volatile marketconditions when it comes to pricing
of commodity pieces, parts, right?
That, that go intobuilding all that stuff.
Uh, and you also havewild labor fluctuations.

(20:03):
I mean, maybe the factories solve for thata little bit better than traditional, you
know, on site kind of stuff where it'sreally difficult sometimes to get the
right crew on the job at the right time,um, especially in certain locations over
others where there may not be as many.
People in that industry or, you know, um,businesses that could bid on a project.

(20:26):
It just, and, and I think about kindof the time horizon that, that VCs are
comfortable with, with that kind of returnand how long these projects take to do.
Obviously they're trying to compressthose schedules in massive ways to,
to make that you know, potentialbeing there and, and, and doing a lot
of work in a shorter amount of time.

(20:47):
man, there's just, uh, this is atough business to apply that kind of,
of thinking to, and I, I, I find itinteresting that you went to, you're
on the software side of it, right?
You're not in the physical sideof it because on the software
side of it, if you can gain thoseefficiencies and make 'em really.
Tricked out for differentverticals operating in the

(21:08):
architecture delivery space.
I mean, talk, talk about that as wekinda lead into where you're at now and
why you decided to kind of get out of
the, the EV industry and

Matt Jezyk (21:19):
Mm-hmm.

what you've learned and
apply it
back to the a
EC industry.

Matt Jezyk (21:23):
Definitely.
I mean, so in the EV side wewere, we were, it's actually
kind of cool, it's like designingthree different things at once.
You design the product,like the vehicle I,

facility side, like to be totally clear about that.
Right.
You, you, you
talked about kind ofthese factories and, and

Matt Jezyk (21:37):
mm-hmm.

places
you
weren't
designing cars I for,

Matt Jezyk (21:40):
Uh, yeah.
I wasn't designing the product, but Iwas designing the process like the, the,
the robots and the assembly lines to makethem, and then the building to house and
feed the process to make the product.
So there's kinda like threedifferent design process, like.
You know, there's the design of the, thecar and then there's the design of like,
how do you get all the parts to the lineto make the car in the right efficiency?

(22:03):
And how many robots do you useversus people and all that.
And then there's the, now there's 16different systems of like compressed air
of nitrogen of, of gas and electricitythat need to go to those lines and
you make a building around that.
So
yeah, we were connecting what are calledthe manufacturing engineers that were
making the design ideas for the vehiclewith the building engineers and, and, um.

(22:29):
Making sure that they were, thosethree different design processes
were as efficient as possible.
Because, you know, like everything else,if you, something changes and then you
try and build them and it doesn't lineup, then that's a cost overrun or a delay.
Um, so yeah, so that was kind of cool.
And then using that idea of a factoryas a product, like building multiple
of them, because they're basicallythe same, uh, is, is, uh, where

(22:50):
you get the economies of scale.
Um, yeah, so I was doing that, butthen I got super deep into the,
the design of the factories and,and how to make that efficient, how
to tie it to generative design andoptimization and those kinds of things.
Um, so that was kind of cool.
But yeah.
But back on.
Uh, leaving that space.
So we, I stood up things at, uh, uh,company Tesla, and then one at Rivian.

(23:13):
We worked on, on those kind oftwo different, um, companies.
But then about a little more than twoyears ago, um, one of my old bosses,
um, Amar, Hans Ball, we, he was theCO CEO at Autodesk called me up and
said, Hey, I've got some ideas thatI'd like to work with you on and let's
see if we can spin up a new company.

(23:35):
Um, and that was the formationfor what we're working on now,
which is this thing called Motif.
Um, and that was literally the casewhere he was at a company called
Berate Machines, uh, with, uh, ourCTO, uh, Brian Matthews and our
Chief Design Officer, uh, Lira Koska.
So they were all working on.
Basically building what are calledmicro factories, like pre configurable,

(23:58):
almost like Lego blocks that make,um, make it easier to make products.
Um, they were doing that for awhile instead of doing design.
And then we all kind of came backtogether and literally got the band back
together to start to address how canwe build the next generation of design
tools for architects and engineers.

(24:18):
Um, so based on some of the learnings thatwe've had, but also just kinda looking at
the industry from fresh eyes, like afterbeing away from Autodesk for a while and
not really thinking about like what thenext version of Revit is or whatever.
It's just like you come back and you lookat the problems and like, oh man, things
haven't really advanced that much at all.
So what are the opportunities nowbased on the technology available, how

(24:40):
the generational shift is happening?
Like, I don't wanna design forme, I'm a middle aged white guy.
I.
I want to design for people thatare in college now that are in a
design undergrad or graduate degree,because their view of the world is
remarkably different than, than mine.
And, and that we're lookingat these things from like
a generational standpoint.
Like what's the 25 year return, like,things like AutoCAD and Revit and Rhino

(25:05):
and SketchUp been around for a while.
Uh, you know, uh, Revit is turning25 years old this year, so not
even old enough to drink, butlike old enough to rent a car now.
It's like, that's,that's like a big thing.
So how do we like.
That like, and it, it's, and I, I, I can'teven teach my, my, uh, my son these tools.
'cause they're, they're, they'regonna be like, this is broken.

(25:27):
Like, this is not how I think, uh, youknow, this kid, my, my son just speaking
it that way is he grew up playingMinecraft and programming when he was like
in seventh grade and Roblox and like thealways on kind of instantaneous aspect
of, you know, uh, connectivity with hisfriends and, and how they work together.
And then the tools that he's usingprofessionally, like we talked

(25:48):
about music, um, are all on the web.
They are all
significantly connected together.
Um, and, um, why do we not have tools likethat for, for our industry that are, uh,
just how people expect to work these days.
Uh, and we can get intothat a little bit more.

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My thanks to Confluence for supportingthis episode of the TRXL podcast.
And now, let's get backto the conversation.
So you've got this seasoned team andI, you said, but got the band back
together in, in this term, this, thisexample might be debatable, but you
know, you've, you have the new kidson the block, uh, but Motif just came

(27:11):
outta stealth and yet you've beenaround the block quite a few times and
the people on your team have as well.
And I'm really curious how youare looking at this product.
the lens of the next generation, becausethat to me is kind of a fascinating thing.
Like of course you could make a newversion of the old thing, right?
You could, you could trim off thingsand you could polish things and you

(27:35):
could, you know, move the UI aroundand put it on the web and call it done.
Right?
But I think there's probably more toit, and I would, I would love to kind
of hear your, your take on how you're
going about doing that.

Matt Jezyk (27:48):
Sure.
so I think the key thing here, uh, thatwe're looking at is desktop software.
Silos of information.
Proprietary file formats are, you know,how people are used to working today.
But if you look at.
Anything else that you've touched,you know, recently, like how you, how

(28:08):
you pay your taxes, how you pay yourbills, how you interact with your
bank, where you get your music from.
All those things are not tied toyour computer and your files anymore.
They're usually on, onthe web and in the cloud.
So why is our professional practiceand our, our design, uh, sort of
standard still tied up in that?

(28:29):
And that's where the industry'sbeen going for a while.
But, um, one of the things that we sawas we've been, as we've formed this
new company and as we started workingwith, uh, a set of early adopter,
we call them design partner, um, youknow, sort of customers or, or sort
of partners, if you think about it inthe US and over at Europe, we started
asking them questions like, what.

(28:50):
What do you guys seeas the main challenges?
Like, and, and a lot of this didcome from, you know, the, the open
letters that were, were, um, youknow, started a few years ago.
There's a, a set of pretty bright,uh, individuals over in Europe
that, um, really started to,
articulate.
Yeah, they're, they're starting to, toarticulate the real problems, like not

(29:12):
just with a technology or a productor something like that, but just like,
here's how the industry needs to workand here's how we wanna work in our
practice and here's how we're lookingfor someone to help us in that journey.

Yeah.

Matt Jezyk (29:24):
Um, so we saw that as a pretty good signal and obviously
everybody's been working with theseguys for a long time, but, uh, working
with them and others, they were ableto show us how practice is changing
and one of the things that's happened.
A little bit before the pandemic,but also accelerated dramatically
during the pandemic was theadoption of these sort of, uh,

(29:47):
infinite canvas whiteboarding tools.
Um, so, uh, people usually referencea, a software called Figma, um,
which is not really that wellused and, and well understood in
architecture, but it's very common in,in software design, user experience,
you know, product design world.
Um, and that is the equivalent would belike, take Adobe in design or, you know,

(30:10):
illustrator and make it work on the web,make it, uh, work, um, in a way that you
don't really have a bound sort of canvas,like that's why it's called in big canvas.
And, um, works at differentlevels of scale and detail and
is inherently collaborative.
Like, that's the key thing is that it'smulti-user multiplayer from the start.
It's easy to share ideas and bringpeople into projects like that set of

(30:33):
phenomenon of like always on, alwaysaccessible and easy to share with others.
I think, um, sparked something in, inour industry where it's the opposite.
It's like not always on, notalways up to date, not easy to
share versus these online tools.
Uh, but fig, like I said, so Figma is notreally used that much, but you'll hear

(30:56):
that from a lot of startups is like, it'slike Figma for BIM or Figma for Revit.

Right.

Matt Jezyk (31:01):
that plays well in the VC community because they understand it.
It's a touchstone.
But in the regular architecture community.
The other infinite canvas tools thatpeople are using are Miro or Mural or
these kind of, um, applications thatliterally took the place of a physical
whiteboard in a conference room thatpeople would come together and pin up
and get ideas together and do charettesand design critique kind of work.

(31:25):
They needed a way to do that, uh,you know, remote across time and
space, but also forcing function whenpeople were not in offices anymore.
How do you practice architecture whenyou can't collaborate together in
real time and, and in the same space?
So there was a heavy pickupof these tools, and they're
actually really easy to use.
You can get the principal levelarchitect to be using it in the same

(31:49):
way that, uh, a junior architector, or someone else can, can use it.
You can get contractors, youcan, you know, bring cross
disciplinary work together.
It's, it's sort of like lowestcommon denominator from like a, a.
Uh, tool set.
But also that is the beauty of it too.
You don't have to be acomputational design person.
You don't have to be the chiefparametric person in your company

(32:12):
to, to use one of these tools.
So there's been a, it, it's reallyinteresting phenomenon there.
So how do you use that to informthe next level of design tools too?
Uh, 'cause there areproblems with this tool.
Like they're, they're two dimension,like, so architects and engineers work in
3D we solve three dimensional problems,

Hmm.

Matt Jezyk (32:30):
but now you're dealing with an artifact of that, a screenshot.
If you, if you will like, let me, letme send a screenshot from, from Rhino or
Revit to put on this board and we couldsketch on top of it and then remember
what we were talking about later on.
Like, those kind of, that level ofinvisible work or sort of, um, uh,
Phil Bernstein used to call it like asawtooth diagram, like you're building

(32:52):
up information and then it drops downbecause you've exported or you've dumped
it out to a different format about

of information right.

Matt Jezyk (32:58):
Great.
So like, how do.

lossy, right?
This process that we go through, it'slike somebody leaves a firm loss, right?
Somebody loss somebody, you know?
Yeah.
You get to a certain milestone inthe project and then you looks good.
Start over kind of a thing.
And it's like, so that'swhat that saw tooth.
It kind of, so if you, if youimagine if you haven't seen this
diagram, it's like the profileof the Sydney Opera House, right?

(33:20):
It's like, it's like up and thena, a steep drop and then up again,
and another arc, and then anothersteep drop and it keeps going.
And, and that's just kind of this linear,if you think about it, kind of linearly.
That's how data loss or, you know,decision making happens throughout the
life of a prog of a
project.

Matt Jezyk (33:38):
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
So, so that's kind of where we'restarting with Motif is what if we
took the best things from these otherapplications and made them more purpose
built for architects and engineers?
Like these tools that arebeing used today are great.
You know, people are usingthem day in and day out.
But they're a little bit misappropriatedbecause they are inherently two

(34:00):
dimensions and they don't really have anunderstanding of, uh, how the building
goes together or other concepts.
They're just kind of like lookingat a, literally a photocopy.
Um, so,
so that was kind of the,the essence of the idea.
So what we're building is a newplatform, and that will take time to do.
Uh, you don't rebuild, you know,the primary design applications

(34:23):
in this industry overnight.
It takes, takes time.
Um, but what we have is a platformthat, uh, can grow to be that.
And the, the first application or thefirst manifestation of this is focused on
basically design, review, collaboration,markup, commenting, and is, uh, meant
to be a complimentary tool with.

(34:46):
The primary design applications.
Like if you spend your day inRhino, like right now, there's not
really a great way to collaborateacross different teams using Rhino.
Uh, how do you do that today?
How do you share that information or,or kind of link those things together
and how do you do it with Revit orSketchUp or Grasshopper or Dynamo?
Like those kinds of things.

(35:06):
People are using them.
There's a heavy investment inthose applications and that's
not gonna change, uh, overnight.
But what, how can we work on like theinterstitial tissue that connects these
things together and, and ultimatelymakes the design a team sport again,
where you can share your ideas moreeffectively inside your company or
outside with other people, or evenwith the client or with the public.

(35:29):
Um, you know, case in point, like,uh, they're, they're building a new
high school where I, where I live,like in, uh, north of, uh, Penn, north
of Philadelphia, south of New York.
Um, and the state of the art is.
I'm gonna show up with a physicalmodel and a SketchUp model and a
PowerPoint to a public meeting everymonth, uh, to talk about the design.

(35:50):
Uh, and there, you know, there, there'sa good facilitation process and what
if we did this or that, or that, butit's not, uh, the artifacts are not
really supporting that design processor the, the review or collaboration
process with whoever the other person is.
Whether it's the client orthe, the general public or the
structural engineer or anybody else.
They're just kind of someone sittingthere taking notes and has to take them

(36:12):
back to the office and give them tothe drafter to, to pick up something.
So how can we bring that into thiscentury and make it digital, make it
trackable, observable and visible topeople that don't have, uh, you know,
a professional background or software.
They could just log in and, andsee the status of these things.

Yeah, I'm, I'm curious to hear.
About how you're doing that.
Because like you, you're talking aboutkind of these, these artifacts, right?
That, that are created as likea snapshot in time, right?
And that is how architectshave worked forever, right?
Like these phases of delivery.
It's always that, right?
It's like conceptual design,schematic design, design development,

(36:53):
construction documents, right?
And, and it's like at each one ofthose phases, and it used to be
right, you would only get renderingsat the end of DD kind of a thing.
Um, again, that artifact and nowlike the expectations of clients have
shifted a lot over the years withthe advent of new technology, like
real-time rendering for example, right?
Where it's just like, because what usedto happen was they would say, where's

(37:15):
my, can I get updated renderings?
And it was like, no, you can't.
Right?
Uh,

Matt Jezyk (37:20):
Yeah.

now it's
like,
of course
renderings are free here.
Here

Matt Jezyk (37:22):
Mm-hmm.

And, And,
here's the
latest screen grabs right?
Of the model that, that we can then.
Send to you becausethey're good enough, right?
They're, they're the real time withall the asset libraries and all of that
stuff just makes it like, okay, yeah,I can, I don't, it doesn't have to go
to the VIS department first anymore.
A designer can just sendthose directly to a client.
But there's still kind oflike this artifact nature.

(37:46):
It's not real time in the, in thatprocess of, and again, like our contracts
are kind of set up that way, and ourbilling departments are set up that way.
And there's so many things that arestill kind of holding onto or making
it so that we, we need to hold ontothese, these older ways of doing things.
But then you're also talking about thenext generation of people who are gonna be

(38:07):
using it, and what, what do they expect?
do you mean?
Like, that's not a live update.
What do you mean?
Like, I can't log in and see thelatest, greatest and, and so having
a place for the next generation orthe, the currently adventurous, um,
people in our, in our generations,right, who are willing to do that.

(38:27):
it's a new way of, of workingand it's a, it's a new workflow.
Um, and it, it's, I'm curious to justkind of hear like what that is like
for you as you roll these things out.
Like you have these partner firmsare probably legacy firms, right?
Like they've been around a while, andof course they want to be modern and

(38:48):
current and, and be differentiatedin some way or do things better.
And at the same time, they're dealingwith all of these other things that
are kind of holding us to these legacymodels, like delivery methods and
the way that standard of care worksin the practice of architecture and
contracts and all of these things.
So, I'm, I'm just curious, likehow, what's that been like for

(39:10):
you guys as you're developing anew platform, a new way of working
with, within an industry that's been
around forever?

Matt Jezyk (39:17):
Oh yeah, no, that's a good point.
I think first off, we know thatdrawings are not gonna go away.
You know, as much as you canlook to the future and say,
we're gonna build off of models.
Sure.
Like that's possible.
But drawings are artifacts that arecontractually mandated and, and represent
those milestones that you mentioned.
So having a way to managethose is super important.

(39:39):
But having them not be derivative,like having them be tied to
the actual design or the workproduct itself and, and sort of.
One thing, I think actuallyRevit got pretty right was the
ability for a view to be live.
Where if you see something that's wrongon a planned view or a sheet, you could
go in and just modify it right there.
You don't have to go back tothe model and change it and then

(40:02):
see the result on the drawing.
So thinking about a drawing asthe expression of your design
intent and how you convey thatinformation is actually super useful.
But also having them be artifactsthat can be pinned in time to say,
Hey, this is what this background80% set look like on Friday.
You know, that's a moment, that'sa release, that's a deliverable.

(40:23):
So that's super important.
One thing that we have heard, um,interestingly, is that if you think
about how that works now, is thatpeople, you know are working in their
primary design tool and then theygenerate a bunch of drawings and they
usually, it's all PDFs right now, andyou generate whatever, 400, 500 PDFs and
toss em over the wall.

my, my cohort on, you know, my, my co-host on my other pod podcast,
he just delivered a set of drawings.
It was over
2,500 sheets,

Matt Jezyk (40:50):
Wow,

eight buildings.
Like not just one building.
Right.
But, uh, but

Matt Jezyk (40:54):
it's massive.
Right?
But like, how do you, like, how doyou even add, if you were the project
architect or kind of principal levelperson, how do you contribute effectively
to that team, which, you know, whatever,you know, metric you have of like people
to like produced sheets and whatever.
But it's, you know, these teams can besomewhere between 10 to 30, 40 people.

(41:15):
Uh, and they're generatingmassive amounts of drawing.
Like how do you review them?
How do you, uh, mentor younger people?
How do you even understand what your
professional liability iswhen on these drawings?
you know.

mean, I

Matt Jezyk (41:27):
you know.

you talk about like doing work in an office under the
observation of an architect and isthat architect truly doing that?
Like that
is actually what

Matt Jezyk (41:36):
Mm-hmm.

says that you're
to do.
Right?

Matt Jezyk (41:38):
Yeah.

it's, it's, it's,
an incredibly difficult thing in, in the,the paradigm of creating buildings today.
Right.
the

Matt Jezyk (41:46):
Mm-hmm.

and the CYA that goes on in these drawings and in these specifications
and all of these different things.
Because I mean, and I was gonna bringthis up earlier when you talk about like.
There is no hub, right?
There's so many ways to dothe, there are hubs, right?
But there's so many ways to sharethings and there are so many ways

(42:07):
to collaborate and there are somany places to like stuff files.
And is it in the team?
Is it in teams?
Is it on the server?
Is it in your email?
Like, where is it?
I don't know.
Um, and, and so much so that companieshave gotten to the point where they're
just like, I don't care where you put it.
Like, we
try to pull it all together

Matt Jezyk (42:24):
Hmm.

we basically
declared bankruptcy and said,there's no way we can force
people to put stuff in the right
place.
It doesn't happen, right?

Matt Jezyk (42:30):
Mm-hmm.

during the
pandemic,
it was like, where's the file?
Who knows?
Right?
Um, it's somewhere.
And if that person's offline,like you gotta wait till
they're back online to find it.

Matt Jezyk (42:42):
Mm-hmm.

man, it's just, it's really complex at this stage.
And so to your point about just keepingyour eye on things and reviewing things
and contributing in the role that youhave as that senior level person who is.
Technically supposed to do that.
It's so hard.
Right.
It's

Matt Jezyk (42:59):
Mm-hmm.

really difficult.

Matt Jezyk (43:02):
Yep.
So I think, so one of the things thatwe, we see as an opportunity is imagine,
you know, you're running a mid-sized,you know, project, whatever the 400,000
square foot office fit out or something.
You're going to a job meeting, youhave to fly, you have to go somewhere.
The state of the art now is send methose PDF files and I'll look at them

(43:22):
in Bluebeam or you know, whateverother PDF markup tool of choice.
But what happens to, anything youcontribute there or ideas that
you have or you know, informationyou wanna share back to the team.
It's sort of

Mm-hmm.

Matt Jezyk (43:36):
one thing that even in our, so one thing that we've heard a lot is like
the kind of pointy haired bosses, if youwill, feel disassociated from the work.
And it, you, you know, like we'reall kind of mid-career professionals.
Like, you know, you might, you mighthave been very adept project architect,
technical person in, in these toolsand working before, but now you're
running around at meetings and,

Yeah,

Matt Jezyk (43:58):
you know, dealing with budgets and you know contracts.

Yep.

Matt Jezyk (44:00):
So, but how do you contribute?
You don't wanna givethat person a Revit seat.
You don't want them messingaround with that model.
You don't even want them,
you know, so like, what do you do?

the model.
Right.

Matt Jezyk (44:11):
So like, what, what if you, what if that person is sitting on the
tarmac at LAX, like waiting to take offand have their iPad and was able to just
log into this thing and see the design.
And it wasn't in Revit.
It wasn't in Bluebeam, it was just inthis new thing called Motif that super
clean, easy to use, but always up to date.

(44:31):
The linked, the models are all linkedand shared so that you see the right 3D
information and the right 2D information.
And you can contribute, you canhave a conversation, you can sketch
on top of these things and havecomments, um, that go back to the
rest of the team as if you were there.
So as if you said, Hey,print out this thing for me.

(44:52):
I wanna show you how we didthis detail five years ago.
Uh, you know, that's the type of typeof mentoring and sort of a professional
practice that is very common, but itonly works well when you're face to face.
What if you could do that more remotelyand still feel like you're contributing?
Uh, and that's, it's not a reviewprocess, it's a participation process.

(45:13):
Participation process and contributionand mentoring opportunity that we think
is missing in some of these current tools.
And it also lets people.
Kind of feel disassociated.
Like, I don't even know whatthis team is doing right now.
I hope that, I hope this isokay, but how do I review that?
I don't have time to go through that.
How do I even know what to look at?
Um, so those kinds of things areopportunities for a collaboration

(45:36):
tool to bring people together inthe same way that you would expect
in any other tool these days.
It's like, you know, you just show up.
You're there physically, either at thesame time in space or asynchronously
leaving comments and marking things up.
But those are all tracked in sort ofGoogle Doc style that, uh, you can,
you can observe, go back to see whochanged, what, when, and how, and then,

(45:59):
you know, respond to a deal with action.

You know, the sawtooth idea that you talked about with Phil's kind
of chart that he showed and how, justto kind of put a diagram to it, a visual
to it, to say, okay, oh, I get that.
What you're talking about now,I think changes that, right?
Like that's, that's definitelywhy, why we're talking about
what we're talking about, right?
It's this idea of that data lossthat the downward part of that chart,

(46:23):
you know, minimized or going away.
I don't, I don't know where, where youguys see that actually going if, but the,
the idea of not having that data lossthen to me opens up another potential
problem, which is just accumulation overtime, which is what designs are, right?
It goes from 30,000 feet down tothe smallest detail, but it's also

(46:44):
like the number of parts goes up,the number of decisions goes up.
Like all of these things aregoing up, up, up, up, up.
And, and so I'm wondering like, how doesa system like yours accommodate for that?
Because I, I don't wanna wade throughmore and more stuff all the time, right?
I, I want to.
I want to go in there and seewhat I need to see without having

(47:05):
to jump those hurdles to get,okay, what are we talking about?
Where do I find it?
Because infinite canvasis not necessarily a good
thing, right?

Matt Jezyk (47:12):
Exactly.
Yeah.

right?
This is what we're talking about.
Um,

Matt Jezyk (47:16):
Mm-hmm.

maybe you can
just kind of
talk to, to, that part of it.

Matt Jezyk (47:19):
Uh, yeah, so, um, I think what we can do is just talk
a little bit conceptually, doyou mind if I just share screen

No,

Matt Jezyk (47:27):
now?
Like it's easy to show some graphics here.
Um.

Okay.
So for those of you, Matt'sgonna share a screen.
For those of you who arelistening on the podcast, you
might want to go over to YouTube.
I'll have a link in the show notes tothe YouTube version of this show, um,
so that you can see what he's doing and,and we'll do our best to describe it.
If, if you're not gonna do that.

Matt Jezyk (47:45):
Yeah, so hopefully I can describe it.
So, okay, this seems like it will work.
Um, and I promise this is not gonna besuper salesy or anything, but thi this
is basically the area we're working in.
The, you know, where design happensis in these desktop tools where
collaboration happens in, in thesekind of new whiteboarding tools.
So what if you could do both?

(48:07):
And that's kind of what Motif is.
So it's meant to be a new platformto handle architectural design.
And to your point, Evan, aboutlike different densities of
information and focus, likethat's inherently built into this.
Like the, the level of informationthat we have is very deep.
Like there's a lot of information, butyou don't need to see it all at one time.

(48:27):
There's ways to parse that informationout and make it, uh, understandable and
also consumable by different audiences.
So we can talk about that.
So yeah, so we, um, this is what we talkedabout a kind of 20 minutes ago, just the
overall space that we're operating in.
Um, and we're building a new platformthat can handle different levels of
information, but meant to encompassthe overall architecture engineering

(48:51):
sort of information density problem.
Uh, and then combining 2Dand 3D information together.
But the way that we're actually doingthat is by segmenting out projects into.
Different boards.
So if you, if you've ever used theseother applications, they have, um, an
interface kinda like this, where youhave a project and then you have these

(49:15):
discreet, uh, spaces to come work inand that there's just an in, it's called
an infinite canvas board, um, thatyou can have one that's focused on.
This is where we're gonna do ourbrainstorming or bring material samples
together, or this one is focused on2D sheet review or 3D model review or
exploring four different options for anentry entryway or something like that.

(49:38):
So, however you want to organize yourwork is there, but the project contains
all of your models, all of your ideas,all of your images, all your PDF files,
really any information that you need.
Um, to execute the project.
And that could live eitherdirectly in Motif or it could be
linked, it could be pulling thatinformation in from other places.

(49:59):
So we're, to your point before, likethere's no single source of truth.
Like there's no, everythingis collaboration.
So go where that information livesand pull it into this or provide a
link, is basically our philosophy.
Um, so, but back on the idea of like,how do I even find the right things in
an infant canvas, what we found justworking with people is that they're,

(50:20):
they organize their work in that way.
Like, okay, this is our 80% check setboard to, to take a look at something
and then that is a container that peoplecan work in and, you know, any of the
comments or markups in there make sensein that, um, sort of for that activity.
Um, but there might be other ones too.

(50:41):
So we're not pre uh,pre-design that for people.
It's just kind of a general purpose tool.
But all of your information isaccessible, uh, over the, the.
Really the, the history of the project.

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(51:15):
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My thanks to Avail for supportingthis episode of the TRXL podcast.
And now let's get backto the conversation.
Yeah.
And I, and I, I like what you're talkingabout when it comes to like, okay,
the, the source of information is theauthoring package that it was created in.

(52:00):
Right?
And it's brought into here, thisis kind of an assembly of parts a
conversation, for a collaboration,for a presentation, uh, depending
on who the stakeholders are, right?
But this gives everybody a placeto do that function of moving the
project forward, making decisions

Matt Jezyk (52:20):
Mm-hmm.

happen in
a group
setting or a collaborativesetting, or in a presentation.
To get that feedbackfrom a client, let's say.
like the Revit stuff's in Revit andthe Rhino stuff's in Rhino, and those,
those really advanced operators of thosethings are still doing their thing in
those packages, right?

Matt Jezyk (52:40):
Exactly.
And that, that's, this is directlycoming from our conversations with
our design partners where, youknow, every, everyone wants a new.
It's a great 3D design
platform
like that, that's not, that's not,
that's not a secret inthis industry, right?
So like, yes.
Um, but also there's likepractical switching costs.

(53:01):
Like, okay, like, you know,how long will it take to build
something that's equivalent to
whatever?

of a product.
Yeah.

Matt Jezyk (53:08):
And, and also, even if there was something today, like, I
mean, I, I was around when we, we gotpeople to use Revit instead of AutoCAD.
Like that was a fairly fundamentalswitching cost of like 2D to 3D
Parametrics, all that kind of stuff.

One way to say it.
I mean, it was painful, right?
It

Matt Jezyk (53:23):
Mm-hmm.

get experienced operators from one to the other.
Like how many times was like the, the flaggoes up and it's like, uh, I surrender.
Export to AutoCAD now.

Matt Jezyk (53:34):
Exactly.
yeah.

How many times
did that happen?
Many

Matt Jezyk (53:37):
So we're not, we're not doing that right now.
Like we are, we're trying to build.
A new platform where you design whereyou want to design, you design in
Revit, you design in Rhino, SketchUp,you know, AutoCAD, whatever, uh, you
know, grasshopper, dynamo, Figma,
you know, it's like, and you're linkingthat information in, in a dynamic way.

(53:59):
So it's not a static thing where Itake a screenshot from Rhino, you're
bringing in the Rhino file and you canmake that right, you know, moment or
view, uh, and show the right informationin this system and bring it together
and mash it up with other things.
Uh, so that's kind of wherewe're going right now.
And you can operate in 2D or 3D.

(54:19):
So you, you take that project architectperson that might be really good
at, at sketching ideas or detailingsomething out, how do you give
them a space that they can draw in?
Like right now they're actually drawingin scarily enough, like Bluebeam or,
or even like, you know, in PowerPointdrawing details, like, why not?
Have something that's a little bitmore architectural in nature that

(54:41):
understands units and scale and, youknow, materiality and things like
that to express your design ideas in.
Um, but still with a very elegant, simpleuser interface that doesn't require you
to be a cad jockey or a computationalkind of nerd to, to do that work.
Um, so that's kind of what we're trying tobuild in this tool is it's not replacing

(55:04):
the primary design applications currently.
It's meant to be complimentary.
It's meant to be a, a collaborationtool that takes the best of these kind
of 2D infinite canvas tools and letsyou do that work, but also lets you
express your ideas in three dimensionsand using that same simple tool set of

(55:25):
sketching with a pen or a pencil or yourfinger, do that directly in 3D as well.
Uh, so that's, that's kindof the essence of what we're.
We're building right now is somethingthat's simple, easy to use, and works
directly with the primary designtools, uh, in a way that we think
matches the, where the industry isgoing, uh, around how people work in

(55:48):
real time collaboration, expectinginformation to be there consistently.
Um, we're showing on the screen rightnow, just our whole team collaborating
directly on building a presentation.
Um, and a, you know, a mood board orsort of precedent study, uh, directly.
Like, why, why should it besomeone is in the InDesign file and

(56:08):
I'll let you know what I'm done?
Or here's a new PDF file.
Like, here's theartifact, like right here.
Let's all work on it together.
Uh, and everybody contributesand participates and provides
their best ideas at that point.
Uh, and then of course you can be the,you know, the critic or the markup
person and say, no, that's all wrong.

(56:28):
Sketch on top of this and say,have you thought about this idea?
You don't need to be generating, youcould actually just be advising or
modifying or mentoring on top of that too.
That's a very importantpart of all of this process.
So, so that's whatwe're trying to support.
Um, but not just in two dimensions.
It's also in a, in a threedimensional space as well, so.

One of the things that you showed me earlier in this 3D space that
I thought was, know, just to really speakto this idea of how architects actually
work is, you know, cutting a section.
Using the section box in Revitand then seeing that in motif and
then sketching over the top of it.
But, you know, we've, we'vedone this forever, right?
It's like roll out the traceliterally over the top of whatever

(57:16):
that predetermined view was.
But what was different was that the,the sketches that people, like, it's
happening on the screen right now.
That's
actually in 3D,

Matt Jezyk (57:26):
Oops.

It's, like
linked
to the model and the view.
And so you get kind of that like, likewe talked earlier about somebody who
has all this experience adding valueto the process, being able to do that
with a tool that they understand theydon't have to go into Revit to do this.
And we're also not extractingand abstracting information

(57:47):
away from the authoring tool.
Like this is kind of a, a sweetlittle middleman kind of effort here,
where it's like I can draw righton top of the model with a tool.
I understand, but it's literally linkedto the the 3D elements, which then.
go back to the, the persondoing the authoring in that
original, original program.
They can actually see it andthey can understand it because

(58:09):
it's linked to and, and I can
actually rotate the view,
right?
Like I don't

Matt Jezyk (58:12):
Mm-hmm.

go back to
this snapshot, this twodimensional overlay.
Like it would happen if you did it inBluebeam or Miro or whatever, right?
It's
actually 3D.

Matt Jezyk (58:22):
Exactly.
So that, that's reallythe essence of this thing.
I mean, drawing is a creative act.
It's, it's meant to beexpressive and un helps people
understand your thought process.
So why not have that work inthe primary environment, like
in, in your 3D environment andnot just not a derive thing.
Sketching on top of a PDF file is sort ofa waste of time sometimes 'cause you're

(58:45):
not able to convey the same information.
So we, we felt it was prettystrong, uh, requirement to get.
Sketching, workingnatively in the 3D scene.
So as you rotate the model, or it justkind of knows where that sketch is,
and having that be real time so you canexpress not just the artifact, but the
process that you use to get to that point.

(59:07):
Like, you know, drawing as ameans to express your, your, your
thoughts, um, and get them acrossto others is super important.
Um, so that's, that's,that's exactly how it works.
Um, so currently you can mash up, likein this case we're seeing a Revit file
and a Rhino file mashed up together.
The Revit is the architecture andthe structure, and the rhino is

(59:27):
gonna be a great ceiling featurethat's digitally fabricated.
You can pull them all together.
So similar to how you can work inlike Navisworks or, you know, uh,
other, other collaboration tools.
But ironically, it's notjust about clash detection.
It's about how do we design this thing?
How do we connect these thingstogether and figure out.
How they're gonna work structurallyor architecturally, uh, and use

(59:51):
that to change the original source,like the Rhino file or the Revit
file to mediate or respond to, youknow, that, that dance of like, if
you move this thing, I'll move that.
Um, so this system in motif captures thatcollaboration in its purest form, the
sketching, the commenting, the, the sortof negotiation of who's gonna do what,

(01:00:12):
and then showing those real time changes.
So as what we're seeing on the screen,I just change the Revit model to add
some structural beam to hang this thing.
And then we change the rhino file toadd some brackets and some hanging rods.
Um, that's immediately there.
That's not waiting for it tosink to the cloud, or I'll

(01:00:33):
give that to you next Tuesday.
It's just there.
Collaboration should happen in that space.

Evan Troxel (01:00:40):
Very cool.
for those of you, again, who aren'twatching, there is a visual component
to the things that Matt and I aretalking about happening in the
YouTube version of this right now.
If you're on YouTube, sorry,you get to hear me talk about
it I'm not talking to you.
Um, but this is, the visual really helpskind of solidify what we're talking about.
A visual example is always beneficial,I think to, to me and this audience, uh,

(01:01:02):
because we're visual, visually inclined,maybe more, more so than than others.
But, um, I think itreally does kind of help.
And, and one of the things I, I lovedwas, was when, you know, somebody sketched
in kind of a section, uh, profile ontothis building and then we zoomed in
and we rotated and that section stayed.
3D space where it was drawn.

(01:01:24):
And I think it's really interestingthat you said that the system just kind
of knows where that's supposed to be.
It, assume you're drawing this likeon a tablet or something and it, and
you're literally drawing it on top ofa 3D view, and yet it, it lives in 3D
space, which I think is pretty cool.
I mean that, that to meis something actually new
that I haven't seen before.

Matt Jezyk (01:01:44):
Exactly, and it, that's exactly how it works.
We're, we're working in a 3D scene.
The geometry can be created directlyin Motif, or it can be, um, brought
in from, you know, Revit or Rhinoor other tools that, uh, if it comes
in from those, it's updating live.
If you change something, like you adda wall or move a window, it'll update.
But the information you're addingon top of motif is also geometry.

(01:02:07):
So I can sketch that with a mouse.
I can sketch it with my, I use aSurface book, uh, with a a, a pen.
You could use your iPad with an Applepencil or even your finger, like a
lot of our displays are multi-touch,you know, capacitance screens.
Anyway, you can just start noodlingaround with just your finger.
Um,
and, uh, and that's the idea.

(01:02:28):
So you're capturing thoseand they're not precious.
It's not, it's not a detail that'sgonna be, you know, printed.
It's just capturing the, the essence ofan idea in a way that can be conveyed
to other people, um, and, and facilitatethe next level of conversation.

Yeah.
That to me is really the benefitof a lot of these tools that we're
seeing show up on the market.
Like there's a lot of multiplayerstuff happening right now in the
browser because the browser kind of.
Agnostic is

Mm-hmm.

word, but

Yeah.

access, let's

Mm-hmm.

to, to
this kind of stuff.
And, uh, it does seem to me that thisreally is table stakes and, and, and
as a designer from a previous era,if you want to call it that, right?
It doesn't seem like it was thatlong ago, but, but maybe it is.
I got the idea of realtimecollaboration potentially all
the time is kind of terrifying, I

(01:03:23):
have to say.
Right?
It's
like I, to

Hmm.

it, it
makes sense when it makes sense.
And then a lot of the othertime, like, I just want to be
left to my own devices.

Mm-hmm.

This platform
pretty much sets you up for that.
You could work either way, right?
You could be working together all thetime, but also because you're pulling in
information from other sources and likereal time linking that stuff together.
Um, it still gives me the ability to goback to my authoring program for, for
those parts of it and work on 'em there.

(01:03:54):
isol isolation for better or worse.
Um, so that I have that control, thatas a control enthusiast designer, right?
Um, that, that, that's whereI like to, you know, that's,
I wanna make those decisions.
I want to decide the proportions, Iwant to decide the materials I want to,
that's, that's my role on the project.
Um, that seems like you're kind ofgetting the best of both worlds.

(01:04:18):
And I'm, I'm curious, like,what, what is the feedback you're
getting on, on stuff like this?
I mean, obviously you've,you've pursued this.
I assume that that is maybe thefeedback that you've gotten and that
you're pursuing, like, because itmakes sense to a lot of architects,
but thinking about it from that throughthe lens of the next generation and
expectations and all those things.
Like, just because that's the wayI wanted to do it doesn't mean

(01:04:39):
it's gonna be like that forever.
So I'm, I'm just curious likewhat the feedback is that
you've gotten that's really.
you to this point.
Is it like, there's tons of people whojust say, I wanna work collaboratively
way more often because I learn more, or,or whatever those, those reasons are.
what, what have you heard?

Absolutely.
I think it's both.
I think it's just human nature.
It's not really the way architects orengineers work, it's just sometimes
you're working on your own thing.
You really gotta work out an idea.
You have to work out somefundamental principle and you're
not ready to share it yet.
And that's supported in the system too.
So yeah, you can leave your thingsoff in your own space and only
share them when you're ready.

(01:05:19):
Um, and then other times it's, it, itreally is this, Hey, let's just get the,
the four best minds together and just haveat it and have a brainstorming session.
But that, that is, you know, a balance.
So sometimes you might need to goaway for two days and just think
about something and work it out.
And then you're ready toshare it and present it.
So absolutely.

(01:05:39):
That's just human nature.
It's just how people workand that's supported.

So do you see this as a paradigm shift?
Do you see this as anevolution revolution?
Like where is this on thescale of, of tools for
architects?

Yeah, I think, uh, where we are right now is meant
to be a connective tissue.
I think like we're building a new platformthat will be the next platform, but right
now what it is, is it's not on a day today to day basis, you're using your main
design tool and that's not gonna change.
The thing that will supercharge is thisthing can look over your shoulder and

(01:06:18):
watch what you're doing and bring thatinto a shared environment that, uh, can
help you do some of the things that mightbe difficult or hard or tedious right now,
uh, a little bit more easily than before.
I.
Um, but the thing that happens instartups, which was really interesting,
is that it's not just about thefirst thing that you put out.

(01:06:40):
It's about every other thing thatyou put out after that and how
quickly you can put out more things.
So because we're a smallstartup, it's all web and cloud.
We can put out new versions ofthe software every month, say,
for example, and add more andmore capabilities over time.
Uh, so that's, that's something thatyou'll see here too, is that this

(01:07:00):
is gonna be a journey and it's gonnabe a pretty, pretty fast journey.
Uh, there's gonna be some pretty largechanges, um, both on how we bring,
uh, features out to the collaborationenvironment that we're talking about,
but also how we go beyond that into otherspaces like around the 3D modeling or
parametrics or machine learning or ai.

(01:07:21):
Like all those things are facilitatedby this platform that we have in place.

Can you talk about that from like a user's
perspective and what you're hearing?
Because to me, you know, addingfeatures my explicit say, so yes, I'm
going to install the new
version.

Mm-hmm.

brought it
up on this
podcast before.
I remember a project managerwas like, are you serious?
There's another
new version of Revit.
And that was
every
year?
That was only every
year.

Mm-hmm.

it was
like, can we
just slow down a little bit?
Because like, it's hard.
Like, and those were back in thedays when it's like, you don't
dare like, take your model fromthis version to the next version
because you don't know what it's gonna
break.
Right.
So

Yeah,

different.
But
I'm just curious from, from yourguys' point of view, obviously when
you say it, it makes a lot of sense.
Yep.
I mean, it's cloud-based, we'rereleasing new features, the
software's getting better and better.
at the same time, you know,you've got people who are
like, oh, you moved my button.
Right?
Like, what did you do?
Right.

totally.
Yeah.
And I, I can, I can argueboth sides of that too.
Like, I mean, think about your phone,like, you know, we're, we're an Apple
family, so we have all iPhones, youknow, I have an, I have an Android
phone as well just for testing, butthe number of updates that happen is
fairly, uh, frequent, like every, every.

definitely been some other things going on in the
world that have kind of us up to
temperature for this type of

Right.
So, you know, it used to be thatyou'd have to wait to get a new, a
new laptop to get the new version ofWindows or the new version of Mac os.
Now these things just kind ofhappen in the background while
you're sleeping, literally
on your phone or on yourcar, or on your laptop.
So I think that the world'sexpectations is, are different now
than they were maybe 10 years ago.

(01:09:04):
That said, when you're dealingwith professional practice and
deadlines and trying to controlas much of your environment as
possible, that could be disruptive.
Absolutely.
It's like, oh, like, I mean, iteven happens now, like in Teams
or Zoom or Slack or anything else,any other tool that you're using.
Those things work this way too.
They'll, they'll just push a new,a new version out and you're like,

(01:09:26):
wait, there's a new button here.
All of a sudden.
Sometimes that's goodand sometimes it's not.
Um, I think where it gets.
Bad is when, when you have a, uh, asoftware development team or a design
team that doesn't understand the primaryworkflows and use cases that their
audience, um, are doing on a daily basisand what they're getting paid to do.

(01:09:47):
And if they start mucking aroundwith those, uh, to, to the detriment
because there's a shiny new featurethat they want to add, that's when
you start to get user animosity andsort of frustration around this thing.
So I think you can, it really doescome back to a, a software design
problem, like how do you add newcapabilities without breaking the
things that you have and withoutfundamentally changing the information

(01:10:09):
architecture and like the layout.
Conceptual framework, object model ofthe system in a way that's disruptive
and sort of breaks somebody'ssort of patterns and paradigms.
So I think you can do both, but youhave to do it intentionally and make
sure you listen to people's feedback.
Uh, and that's actually another partof this whole thing is that we're,
uh, because we, we have, uh, a lotof people that came from market

(01:10:32):
engineering industry, we have a lotof connections in these partners.
There's a good levelof feedback back to us.
It's not just we throw it overthe wall and we don't listen.
It's like they tell uslike right away, basically.
It's like, Hey, uh, you know, you guysbroke this thing and we'll fix it.
So, but like often it's, it's, um, itcould be done more intentionally in,

(01:10:54):
in a, in a thought, um, provoking way.
Like, I mean, just adding likeAI ML tools is a great example.
Like they're.
Is a heavy emphasis on those, asyou've seen in the marketplace now.
And it's easy to sort of, we kind ofsee it in the same way that people
kind of took sustainability to heartbefore and added features that might be

(01:11:14):
green, but sometimes there's like sortof a greenification kind of problem.
Like it just because you added like anecotech, like Sun Path diagram doesn't
mean you have a sustainable practice.
You know what I mean?
So like
seeing the same thing from AI and MLstandpoint right now, just because
you're using like, you know, sort ofhugging face or like some other like,

(01:11:36):
you know, image generation tool doesn'tmean that's gonna give you great
results or you really understand what'shappening or you're not violating, you
know, uh, some copyright information.
You know, like the, like how do weapply these things intentionally and
reasonably and as a, as an industry andthen also as a software provider, how do
we provide things that are not gimmicky?

(01:11:56):
They're not.
Just to please the market orto make a new press release.
They're impactful, they're designedintentionally to support or supplement
or enhance a current processas opposed to make it different
just because it's different.

I'm, I'm curious how you engage with
your audience.
You, you
mentioned

I.

but like,
okay, so a new app shows up on a newversion of an app shows up on my phone
and, know, we used to have to go throughthe process of like, okay, install the
update where I could read the releasenotes and then that's gone, right?
Like nobody reads therelease notes anymore.
And I've seen a lot of companies nowbecause of the speed of development,
they don't take the time to.

(01:12:37):
Create documentation about here's howto use these new tools, here's the new
tools, here's how to use them, and here'sa place to provide feedback for them
because that's, that's another job to do.
Right?
I get it.
Um, so I, I'm just curious.
Like, I've even seensoftware come out recently.
It's like there's nomanual, you don't need it.
Right.
And, and that may or may not be the case.

(01:12:57):
so I'm, because it's so easy touse, um, and, and again, like
I, there's arguments for, theredefinitely is software like that.
Does it exist in AECI don't know.
Um, but, but I'm curious how you guysare handling that, because is just gonna
get more and more complicated over time.
And if you don't have a system inthat, and, and you may have a different

(01:13:19):
take on this than I do, but I feellike if you don't have a system now.
When it's easy, and I'm using air quotes,podcasting, air quotes, right, where
you, you don't have a huge feature set.
You're super focused.
You're just trying to deliver kind ofthis baseline MVP kind of stuff, most
valuable, like delivering value early.

(01:13:39):
If you don't have that now,and I, maybe you do, um, but,
but how do you do it later when
it's even harder, right?

Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a good point.
I think, um, it's very topical becausewe're, we're about to launch the software
and, um, usually documentation is thelast thing that happens in anything.
But luckily it's the opposite forus because we've been working with a
set of people for the last two years.
There is documentation, and there'sone of the things that we find useful

(01:14:08):
is writing design documents internallywith intentionality ourselves.
Like if you can't convey a concept tosomeone internally in writing and make
that point cleanly and clearly, your, youruser's not gonna understand it either.
So we've written documents like sincethe beginning, um, that describe

(01:14:28):
how the software should work.
Um, the interesting thing now is that the.
You know, what, what you, the, the, likeany other design process, like your inputs
go into this thing and then there's abunch of things that happen and then
what comes out the other end may not lineup exactly with what your inputs were.

Mm.

but the, the intent is the same where there is a concept,
like a frame, like we're lookingat these presentation boards right
now that are, we call frames.
So there's a concept of a frame,like how should a frame work?
Well, it should work like a slide inPowerPoint or like a sheet in Revit
where it's sort of like a containerthat holds stuff like views and you
know, text and lines and whatever.

(01:15:06):
So like that concept should beunderstandable and documented
somewhere in a way that peoplecan easily understand without
reading a tome like a large manual.
So how do we do that?
It's just gonna be a lot of, um, onlineresources that are contextual and relevant
where it's like, how do I do this?
I want to do this thing.

(01:15:28):
And from an end user standpoint,they don't really care if that's from
documentation or from a community kind of,uh, forum or sort of, uh, over, you know,
sort of discourse discord type thing.
Or if it's AI or if it's a help ticket.
They just want an answerto their question,

Yeah.

like, what is this thing?
So that's very commonly what you seein software these days is a little
thing in the corner that literallyask lets you ask that question,
like, how do I do this thing?
Uh, and

in the
corner are like totallyinvisible to a person like
me.
I, I

Hmm.

even, because I
wasn't
raised on this way
of doing

Mm-hmm.

it's like
I learned a long time ago that the help
menu was not that.

Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

So I, I never even see those little things, that little bug in the
corner like you're talking about.
But, but I

Yeah.

you're talking
about the next
generation, and you'retalking about people who, who
operate software that they're
used to, to doing that.

But we, we do see different learning modalities
is like the fancy word for it.
Uh, and some people learnbetter reading things.
Other people learn betterby looking at a video,

Yeah.

watching YouTube or listening to a podcast.
Like, so those kinds of things Ithink we're, we are investing in.
So, um, we're, and and the whatthe, another good thing that
happens in software is you cansee where people go, right?
So like, the equivalent in architecturewould be if you're designing a
campus, uh, for a college, right?

(01:16:53):
You, you have a set of buildingsand you could design the quad,
like the, the middle kind of,you know, grass area and put,
put paths down.
But why not let people walkwhere they wanna walk and
then pave them the next year?
So that's kind of how software works,is like, you can see where people go,

the

like, not,

right?

yeah, not like maliciously or like tracking or, you know, surveillance.
It's just more like.
You can look at that data and generatea heat map of like, where do people go?
What questions do they ask?
And then follow that with like,okay, this is clearly where
they're going to ask that question.
We should support that.
Um, so, and that, that really is thatdialogue between like the software

(01:17:34):
and Baker and then the, the end user.
Um, and to your point, like changehappens, like, you know, desktop
software changes infrequently,but web software changes faster.
But that doesn't have to be disruptive.
It can actually be beneficialif you're listening and you're
designing things intentionalitywith an in intentional purpose.

I, I'm curious what you guys think about the, there's this idea that
I've had for a long time, and I, I'm surethis, I, I actually know that this is
not my, my idea, it's not even, it's notunique, but it's like things should have
expiration dates.
I think, uh, laws,

Yeah.

like
there's a lot
of things out there.
Um.
When it comes to tools and featuresand things like that, right?
Like we all use software that's beenaround, you mentioned several titles
that have been around forever andthey can never get rid of anything
because somebody relies on that.
I'm curious what your, what your takeis on that, because it seems to me
like anything that really is going tobe modern of has to think like that.

(01:18:33):
Like there, there actually are, and ifyou're a able to look at the data, right?
If you're able to look andsay, less than 1% does this
thing anymore and you guys are new.
Maybe this

Mm-hmm.

you yet,
but,
but there's got there, it seems to melike there's some kind of expiration date
on things at least it's like, hey, let'srevisit that and look at that again.
Let's look at the data now and see wherethis feature sits or you know, certain
functionality or workflows or any ofthese things because it's like you in
20 years, if you're around then, right?

(01:19:04):
Like you can see what happens.
We all
can see what happens, right?

Yeah, totally.
Um, I used to, yeah, like at, at Autodesk,like, um, I, I used to work with, uh,
you know, guys like Ian Keo and AnthonyHawk and these, and, you know, a bunch
of us kinda worked together and therewas a point in time when I was not
doing Revit anymore, I was doing dynamode computational stuff and whatever.
But Anthony and I, Anthony was theproduct manager for Revit at that time.

(01:19:31):
Or, um, and I got to say in customermeetings, it's probably my fault, but
it's not my job to fix it anymore.
Like there, there's some feature in Revitthat didn't work or something like that,
but those are very much those cases oflike when you design something, there's
like a literally a shelf life for it.
There might, it might have been agood idea at that time, but if it
hasn't advanced in literally 15years or 20 years, something's wrong.

(01:19:54):
Like there should be a, a reduc reductiveprocess or a destructive process.
If something's not used orit doesn't make sense, um, it
should be taken out and recycled.
It should be rebuilt.
Um, and.
There's a concept in software calledthe, the Big Ball of Mud, which is
about software accretion, both froma code base and sort of technology

(01:20:16):
standpoint, but also from a userconcept and feature standpoint.
Like, why don't you take things away?
Uh, sometimes it's, it's actuallybetter for people to simply get rid
of five things than to add to more.
Uh, so that, that's a very strong, um,concept that I don't think people actually
embrace, um, and, and think reductively.

(01:20:37):
So like a good designer actually knowswhat to take away, and I don't think
that that's applied very well in thesoftware industry, but it should be.

I think that's one of Dieter Ram's, like
10

Yeah,

of good design.
Right.

totally.
Yeah,

you,
there's no extra.
Right.

Well, even back in the Renaissance days, like, you
know, like Michelangelo, like,how did you know, what is David?
Well, I took away everything thatwasn't David, you know, so it's okay,
like, not to say that, you know, like,but there's, there's a level of, of
self-critique and, and honest feedback.
And also just metrics, like thethings we talked about before.
If something's not being used, whyshould you have that cognitive load

(01:21:14):
of literally even seeing that buttonor having that, that code in the
code base, like just get rid of it.
Uh, and that's, that'shard to do sometimes.
So,

I mean, look at, I mean, AutoCAD,

yeah.

uh, like
how it's been around literally likeforever and, and there you try to take
something away, and I guarantee you,because it's a horizontal piece of
software that crosses so many industries,like, what are you talking about?
I use that every, I usethat thing every single day.
That tool, somebody willraise their hand, right?
And say, yeah, I usethat every single day.

(01:21:46):
Because the user base is so big, it'sbeen around for so long, and they just
keep building and building and buildingand building, and then you get to the
point where you cannot take stuff awaybecause you're gonna break somebody's.
And, and I, I get it.
Like, that's really hard to deal with.
And at the same time, like it'stotally keeping us to these.
These older systems.
And so as a, as a designer, as anarchitect, and kind of understanding

(01:22:11):
that, yeah, like taking things away thatdon't serve us anymore like that, could
serve us in so many ways in our lives.
And, and yet it's very hard tokind of step back and, and gain
that perspective and understand why
that could be beneficial.
Well, this,
this has been a great conversationand I, I'm excited with what you're
showing at, at such an early stage.

(01:22:32):
This has been, uh, you know, a greatconversation to kind of talk about what
it's like to work in this professionand, and maybe for a next generation
even more so, like I, I love that youguys are taking that perspective not
just trying to replace what exists today,but kind of redefine it and, and build
something that, will serve generationsin a much more, you know, useful way.

(01:22:54):
So I appreciate you
taking the time to share with us today.

Absolutely.
And I think that's really, that'show we think about the company
too, is that number one, likewe don't know all the answers.
Like we have some ideas, but we need tocollaborate with people, like thought
leaders in the industry like yourselfand others to, to find what's next.
And we're kind of, we're tryingto be humble about this stuff.
Like we, we know some things,but we don't know others.

(01:23:17):
And we are trying to listen.
Like that's the fundamental thingis when we work with, um, a lot of
these early adopter partners that wehave, it's not us saying, here's the
beautiful thing that we wanna do.
It's listening and observing andcollaborating with people to find
out what is next and literallygoing on that journey together.

(01:23:38):
So, so we've been doing that in, ina small forum recently, over the last
couple years, but now it's time togo a little broader, so wanna bring
more people into that journey with us.
So appreciate, um, you know, having thisconversation and I'm sure we'll have more,
more to talk about, um, in the future.

Well, we'll have links in the show notes for this episode, but if
you want to just say where people cango right now if they're driving a car or
whatever, and they, they, this episodejust deletes as soon as it's over.
It'd be
better if you could just say it out loud.

Sure.
Yeah.
So, uh, I'm Matt Jezyk.
I'm from a company called Motif, andour website is Motif, Tif Do io you
can find it online and you'll be ableto, um, access the software, find
out more about what we're up to, and,uh, we'd love to to hear from you.

Fantastic.
Matt.
This
has been a great conversation.

All right.
Thanks a lot.
See ya.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}181: ‘Densities of Information’, with Matt Jezyk