August 12, 2025 • 41 mins
Successful fueling and convenience store development hinges on masterful pre-development planning. The foundation of your project's success isn't just about selecting prime real estate—it's about understanding the complex dance of regulations, community concerns, and technical requirements before breaking ground.
Our expert panel from CEI unpacks the critical elements that can make or break your next convenience store project. Jim Tredwell shares wisdom gained from 30+ years overseeing projects from both owner and consultant perspectives, emphasizing how early planning creates stronger foundations. "If you don't have a strong foundation, you'll have a weak project," he notes, highlighting how pre-development sets the course for controlling risk throughout the project lifecycle.
The conversation reveals surprising insights about site investigations that developers often overlook. From outdated surveys in seller packets to hidden infrastructure limitations in growing municipalities, our experts identify the common pitfalls that delay projects and inflate budgets. They offer practical guidance on navigating restrictive covenants, environmental concerns, and community pushback that can derail even well-planned developments.
Modern survey technology emerges as a game-changer for developers willing to invest in comprehensive site understanding. As Dustin Riley explains, "We're getting a thousand times more data than we've ever got in less time than it's ever taken." His team's approach to drone and LIDAR technology delivers safer, more thorough site assessments while eliminating costly return visits. The panel challenges the common request for "the cheapest survey," explaining how this mindset often costs developers more through extended timelines and unexpected complications.
Whether you're expanding an existing brand or developing your first convenience store location, this episode provides the roadmap for smoother, more predictable project delivery. Listen now to gain practical insights that will transform how you approach your next development opportunity. Have you experienced unexpected delays in your projects? Share your story and learn how comprehensive pre-development planning could have changed your outcome.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello and welcome to today's episode of Turning Plans
Into Places where we explorethe real world challenges and
solutions that are shaping thefuture of engineering, surveying
and site development.
I'm your host, debbie Jones,and I'm thrilled to be joined by
a powerhouse panel of expertsfrom CEI to dive into everything
(00:28):
from smart site planning tosurvey tech innovations and how
these elements can drive successfor fueling and convenience
store developments across thecountry.
Let me introduce our guests.
First we have Jim Treadwell,clientient Sector Leader for
Fueling and Convenience.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Pleasure to be here, thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Jim brings more than 30 years of experience in all
facets of project delivery, fromleading the client-side
construction efforts to nowserving on the consultant side.
He understands the full lifecycle of these developments and
brings a unique owner'sperspective that's incredibly
valuable.
Joining Jim is Kevin Hall, theDirector of Technical Services
(01:10):
at CEI.
With over 21 years at the firm,kevin is known for bringing
consistency and technicalprecision to complex programs.
His experience with everythingfrom entitlements to permitting
to coordination withmunicipalities across the
country is going to shed a lotof light on the pre-development
(01:31):
process.
And rounding out our expertpanel today is Dustin Riley,
department Manager for NationalSurvey Services.
Dustin oversees surveyoperations coast toast through
internal teams and awell-defined national network.
He is able to integrate newtechnologies like drone and
(01:52):
LIDAR into national rolloutswhile keeping a sharp focus on
data accuracy, speed, value forthe clients while keeping the
information easy anduser-friendly.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Thank you, Debbie.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Welcome you guys.
So for today, our topicswhether you're a developer, a
project manager or part of abrand looking to expand your
footprint, this conversationtoday will be packed with
insights to help you avoidcommon pitfalls and set your
project up for long-term success.
So if you guys are good, let'sjump in.
(02:33):
All right, all right.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
So Jim Kevin Dustin, thank you guys very much for
being here today.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Thanks for having us.
So let's start at the beginning.
How does the pre-developmentprocess in fueling and
convenience store developmentreally shape the outcome of
these types of projects?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I'd love to answer that question, debbie.
It's a very important question.
It's like a foundation thatdetermines the entire life cycle
of the project.
If you don't have a strongfoundation, you'll have a weak
project.
It sets the course and theproject plan to go forward, to
control risk and ensure theproject visibility and success.
(03:10):
So I would say that's the mostimportant part of the process is
the pre-development phase.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
I love that.
So what should developersconsider early on when it comes
to entitlements permitting andsetting realistic timelines?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Well, first of all, the process starts with the
selection of the project team.
You want to make sure that youhave a consultant that's been
vet out, that has the experience, the know-how, to do that
particular project.
In this case we're talkingabout fueling and sea stores.
They are unique in the sensethat you have multiple
(03:47):
operations within that space,versus a big box retail project
where it's just a singular useand there's site considerations
as well as operational issues,and there's also fuel tanks and
other engineering componentsthat need to be properly
coordinated.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
When it comes to site plan design for fueling and
C-stores, what are some of thekey decisions that can make or
break a site?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
I'd like to answer that, if I could.
Access is a very importantaspect of that the location of
your fueling tanks, the designof your fueling island, the
canopy, your path of travelroutes going from the building
to the dispenser areas.
Also, things as small as yourtrash dumpster areas.
(04:39):
You've got service deliveries.
You've got turning radiuses.
You have to navigate all thatwith some of the city
requirements.
You've got setbacksright-of-ways.
You've got stormwaterconsiderations.
There's a whole myriad ofissues that come into play.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
I'd expand on that a little bit too, with local and
jurisdictional zoningrequirements, state requirements
, is this convenience storegoing to sell alcohol?
At least in this part of thecountry, there's a lot of
regulations around sellingalcohol within so many feet of a
church or a school, so it'sbetter to figure those things
(05:20):
out as early as possible.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yeah, that's a very good point and that kind of
falls in line with restrictedcovenants within the title.
If it's an out parcel in ashopping center and you have a
major anchor let's say it's aPublix or a Ralph's, whatever
the store is, it could be a HomeDepot they will have
restrictions on use.
They don't want any competinguses that could impact their
(05:45):
operation.
Or it could be parkingrestrictions, could be sightline
variances Typically, forexample, on a store you cannot
put any.
Your building cannot be withina certain 150 feet of the major
entrance.
So there's a whole slew ofissues that kind of fall in line
(06:05):
with what you were saying.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
So that is actually a perfect segue into the next
question, because what you arereally talking about is finding
out that information early inthe process, at a time that
you're giving the owner the bestopportunity to react, plan,
mitigate or change course withthe least financial impact, and
(06:28):
I think that a lot of that fallsunder the site investigation
process.
So let's talk a little bit moreabout that.
We know that siteinvestigations can sometimes
reveal surprises.
In addition to the items thatyou just mentioned, what are
some common issues that you seeduring this phase, and how can
(06:49):
teams get ahead of them?
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I'll start off on responding and you guys can
chirp in on this.
You could have potential codeviolations that were not
apparent, latent issues such asthat that could impact the
design and operation of theC-Store.
Also, you could haveenvironmental issues.
You could have phase twooperations that are going on
(07:13):
that, indirectly or directly,can impact the project.
Also, you could have we spokeearlier about restricted
covenants that could become verynoticeable affecting the
project.
And geotechnical considerations.
It could be a project sitewhere you've got a high water
table.
You could have soil cohesionissues.
(07:36):
I know if it's a project inFlorida you've got sinkhole
issues.
There's a whole slew ofdifferent things geotechnically
that could adversely affect thedesign of the project.
And then the more common one isjust inaccurate, outdated
drawings that were provided aspart of the sales package.
So you're starting ondeveloping the project and you
(07:59):
find out that the survey wasoutdated, did not reflect some
of the more recent changes tothe site and I'm sure you guys
must have, uh, dealt with thatas well yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
And then sometimes you know these c stores are
going in the growing cities andpopulations, um, there's
infrastructure problems orissues that you can kind of find
out or research in thebeginning.
You know, for example, likesewer capacity and things like
that.
So we've ran into issues withsome municipalities growing and
(08:37):
they're just finding outthemselves that they have a
sewer capacity issue.
So, talking about that in thebeginning, you know the site
investigation report you are.
We are reaching out to thecities and talking to them about
you know where to tap into thewater sewer, you know where
those things are at and otherthings.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
That's a very good point, because you get fooled a
little bit.
You have an existing survey orsite drawing that shows here's
where the water line is, but itdoesn't give you the elevation
of that line Correct.
Or it could be a sanitary lineand you need to have a grinder
pump and a force main to designinto it.
So there's a whole myriad ofdifferent issues that go with
(09:22):
that.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
So I've got a bit of a follow-up to that, Dustin, and
I'd love your take on this.
How do you think thatintegrating survey services
early in the process can reallybenefit the team and the client?
So we've been talking kind offrom an engineering perspective.
But I know when Jim mentionedthe client packet, so the client
packet comes to you, it's got asurvey in there and then that
(09:47):
is what you're, that's basicallywhat you're starting with.
So walk me a little bit throughthat process and things you
look for.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Absolutely so.
Integrated survey in thebeginning, I think is critical
to your, to your developmentprojects for a number of reasons
.
I mean to Jim's point.
A lot of times the seller has apacket of historical data
available.
It's probably not up to date.
It probably doesn't have theinformation you need on it.
Having an integrated surveyteam with your design team,
(10:16):
whether they're in the samecompany or not, I think is
absolutely important on thefront end and provide.
I mean in the survey request.
When you're requesting a surveyfrom a consultant, give them all
the information you have.
I mean, if you call and ask fora survey because you're buying
this property and you don't tellthem what you're planning on
(10:37):
doing with the property, whereyou're planning on connecting to
utilities, how you plan onaccessing the property, I can
almost guarantee you won't getall the information you need.
Give them everything you have.
It may be a rough concept siteplan.
You may not know where you'regoing to tie into utilities, but
you know what utilities youneed, you know.
Give all that information onthe request up front.
(10:58):
Title commitment, if it'savailable, the exception
documents, if they're available,plat records, deed records,
everything you can get yourhands on as early as possible
will get the most information inthe survey is the best chance
you have at getting all theinformation you need in one shot
(11:20):
is a flood hazard informationwhere we may need to get a LOMA,
you know, letter of amendmentand an elevation certificate,
and I think isn't it true.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
nowadays with the drones and the LIDAR, that
process becomes a little easierto do.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
It is.
I mean there's a lot of goodGIS data available FEMA,
floodplain information, base,level engineering data that we
can use during an SIR.
You know, pull that data andjust get an idea.
But yes, during the surveyphase nail it down and determine
exactly how it's going toaffect and cut your losses if
(12:01):
it's going to hinder thedevelopment.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
That sounds good.
That's a really great point,though that was brought up.
So there is an awful lot ofbuzz around new survey tech
drones, lidar, mobile scanning.
What is actually working wellin the field right now and where
do you see the biggest impactbased on technology right now on
(12:24):
project delivery?
Speaker 3 (12:25):
I'll take that.
I mean first off, from a surveymanager perspective, there's a
safety aspect.
I mean dangerous or sites thathave fall hazards or water
hazards or trip you know timberlaid down during the tornado a
couple years ago we did a lot ofwork to mitigate the tree fall
(12:49):
and clean up efforts, and beingable to fly over the side and
collect all that data withoutsending humans through there is
a great advancement intechnology, in my opinion.
From a client perspective, it'scollecting data as efficiently
as possible.
We're getting a thousand timesmore data than we've ever got in
(13:10):
less time than it's ever takenJust getting a more complete
picture of the site, minimizingtrips to go back to the site.
I mean, if we go out and flythis site on the front end, we
extract all the data.
We go out and fly this site onthe front end, we extract all
the data, provide thedeliverables, and then we find
out three months down the roadthat actually this access isn't
(13:31):
going to work.
We're going to need to moveover.
We need some more data herethat we didn't know we needed.
Well, now, instead of drivingback to the site, I can go back
to my data set, pull more data.
It's priceless in our line ofwork and the biggest impacts
moving forward.
I think AI is the next phase ofthis technology.
(13:51):
You know we're getting prettygood at flying drones and
collecting data and processingLIDAR and ortho imagery.
The next step is using the AIto extract the data we want
autonomously and I think we'llsee that in the next few years.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
I love that.
Well, this will be a good.
This will be a fun question.
We often hear developers sayjust give me the cheapest survey
.
They want the least that theyneed.
They're trying to invest thelowest amount of capital at the
beginning of the project beforethey know that it's sure.
So they're really trying to besafe with their money.
(14:28):
But we often hear developerssay I just I need the bare
minimum.
Give me the cheapest so that Ican check this box.
What would you say to thatmindset?
Speaker 3 (14:39):
I'd like to take that .
My recommendation would be tochange your thinking from the
cheapest survey to the mostcomplete survey.
Everybody wants all of ourservices for as cheap as you can
get them.
I mean, nobody wants to spendmoney they don't have to spend.
I respect that.
But going in with the mindsetof I'm going to get the cheapest
(15:01):
survey almost always costs moretime, more effort throughout
the project, missing information, misrepresented information,
not having what you need on thefront end.
If it, if you go into this andsave a couple of thousand
dollars on your survey and itcosts you 60 or 90 days to get a
CFO, did you really save anymoney?
(15:24):
It's not a cheap survey.
At that point I would go intoit with the intent of getting
the most complete survey for thebest price, if you can.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
At that point in the survey you're still vetting out
things, you're still looking athow the site, the topography of
the site, lays, and so gettingthe more information you can in
the beginning is going to helpeverybody and all the partners
in the project to understandwhat complications there are
(16:02):
with the site and how you'regoing to come Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, I can definitely see how that would
actually save probably a lotmore than a couple hundred, you
might say.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Time is money.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Time is money.
Let's get back and go ahead andwrap up the last question that
I have regarding siteinvestigations, because it sort
of leads a little bit to thislocal idea.
Let's talk about somethingdevelopers are always trying to
figure out Do you go with alocal engineer in doing these
(16:37):
site investigations and survey?
So, do you go with a localengineer who knows the area, or
do you go with a national teamthat brings consistency across
the market?
What's the right mix and how doyou know?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I'd like to take a stab at that.
I think you go with the rightengineer, one who understands
the requirements of a particulararea area.
It's not based on physicaldistance to the building
department itself, but it'sunderstanding how the building
department operates.
In terms of our plan submissionschedules, review requirements,
(17:15):
everything nowadays is handleda lot differently than it was 25
years ago.
It's more automated.
You have to understand what therequirements are and how to
formulate a plan to deal withthose requirements.
We're lucky because we've gotoffices across the country.
Each one of our offices has asphere of influence that allows
(17:39):
us to effectively deal withthings.
I know for the Florida market,for example.
I've dealt with most of theplanning departments in that
area.
I understand how to get thingsthrough the system, how to
untangle knots and formulate apathway to address very
pertinent issues.
So we're very lucky to havethat expertise.
(18:01):
And again, it's not based onlocality, it's based on
knowledge base.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
I would expand on that some time.
I mean the only time.
I would recommend a localpresence.
If you're the owner, developerand it's the community you live
and operate in, it might benefityou to have a local consultant.
If you're working on a programacross the country of several
stores, you're going to benefitfrom having a program team on
each project that can learn frommistakes, take those to the
(18:31):
next project.
Anybody can read the code for acity and learn it and make an
application, but 20 years ago Ithink it was a more critical
element.
I mean nowadays I don't thinkit's as important.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
I want to also add to what you just said.
I've been involved in projectswhere we had local engineers
working on a project within a15-mile distance and they were
not keeping up with the planningresolution minutes, the
follow-up requirements.
The letter would come from theplanning department in April and
I find out they didn't addressthose issues until three months
(19:13):
later.
So the fact that they werelocal was not an advantage in
that case.
So to me it's doing thehomework up front.
Reminds me of when I was inarchitectural school.
They told me you can accomplishmore with a pen and pencil.
In the very beginning chart outwhat the issues are, diagnose
the problem.
It's almost like a surgicalteam going into a hospital
(19:35):
working on a patient.
Before you operate on thatpatient, you have a pre-op
meeting to go over what theissues are, what the mitigation
process would be to resolvethings.
So that's my take on it.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Well said.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
And I would like to add that consistency, because
you know you've got people onyour team.
You don't want to train newpeople every time.
With a local consultant, theowner, the client's going to
have to tell them what theirexpectations are for every local
consultant they're going to use.
(20:11):
If you have a national team,they already know that there are
times that they may have to geta local person involved at
there are times that they mighthave to get a local person
involved, but now that theprogram is responsible for
training, that person and notthe client.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
And I just want to mention one thing.
We talk about proximity,locality, a lot of states,
you've got state offices thatare located 175 miles away from
where the project site is.
You've got agencies spread allover.
It's having the expertise tounderstand what the purposes of
those agencies and how theyrelate to the project itself.
(20:49):
So, again, I really feel thatthe locality issue is not as
significant as it needs to be.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
One thing that was surprising to me, just to wrap
up the site investigation pieceis how often fueling and
convenience stores get pushbackfrom the community.
What is the key to earningcommunity trust and support, and
how can engineers anddevelopers work together to tell
the right story about theseprojects?
Speaker 2 (21:21):
I'd love to answer that the primary goal there is
to create solidarity with theneighborhood.
You need to stress the valuethat the project is bringing to
the local area.
It may also entailparticipating in common causes.
If it's an area where they havea book drive, where they're
trying to help the schools, youmay want to participate in that
(21:45):
as a co-sponsor.
That's always important.
The other thing is to haveneighborhood meetings where you
discuss some of the problemsthat they have about the project
.
Let's say it's a noise issue orthey're concerned about the
possibility of having crime inthe area.
You try to address those issuesand maybe they feel that the
(22:09):
project is intrusive and thatthe size of the roof is too big
and they don't want to look outand they all of this stuff.
You come up with differentmeasures.
One of the things that you needyour consultant to do is become
a strong advocate for theproject in planning commission
air hearings to articulate allthese mitigating factors
(22:30):
successfully.
I know I was on some meetingswhere the planning director did
not want to approve the project,but we had a side caucus I
requested.
I had the planners in the room.
We worked out a solution wherewe had to put up some additional
landscaping along an edge ofthe property to comply with
(22:53):
their aesthetic standards.
So it's communication,involvement and coming up with
some sort of contribution.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Kevin, you've mentioned a lot about
consistency, but how do youensure each piece of parcel of
land is very different?
How do you ensure theconsistency and quality in
survey standards acrossdifferent projects and locations
?
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Yeah, so that's knowing your client's
expectations and quality insurvey standards across
different projects and locations.
Yeah, so that's knowing yourclient's expectations.
We develop checklists of theTable A items and the ALTA when
we review it.
So we've got a checklist of allthe items that are reported to
the client to make sure that weeither show them, label them or
(23:40):
note them and how they affectthe property, and then just
training your team to be on thelookout for those things.
You know you have to kind ofstep back and look at the
property as a whole, see whatthe client's goal is for that
property.
And, you know, just imagine ifit was your property in your
(24:01):
hands.
What are you going to do?
And so you have to look at thebig picture and not get focused
on just that property itself.
You kind of have to see how itaffects the joiners and you know
, maybe there's some runoff froma water, runoff from other
other properties that you'regoing to have to deal with.
You want to communicate, tocommunicate to that, to that.
(24:22):
You want to communicate that toyour team of engineers.
And then, you know, keepingyour engineers in the loop.
When we hand off the survey toour engineering team, we have a
debriefing.
You know, these are the thingsthat we saw.
These are the things that wethought you might want to know
and then keep them in the loopof that too.
So we're not just sliding asurvey under the door and
(24:44):
they're going to design.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
That.
That is actually a really greatpoint, dustin, if you are, you
know, and I've I've seen it inthe past from the client aspect
of things, where there'll be abig gathering of information and
then basically there's kind ofan information dump on the
client.
So what kind of steps do youtake or what would you expect?
(25:08):
I guess what I'm really lookingfor here is how do you make the
information, all theinformation that you've gathered
, user friendly and applicable,because most of the people that
you've gathered user-friendlyand applicable, because most of
the people that are reviewingour plans are not other
surveyors or engineers.
What steps I guess really whatI'm looking for to make that
user-friendly?
Speaker 3 (25:30):
That's a good question.
To reiterate what Kevin said, Imean client expectations is the
first piece of that.
Understanding your client'sexpectations and needs is the
first piece of that.
Understanding your client'sexpectations and needs and then
just keeping the client updatedas the project goes along.
I mean, to Kevin's point, notjust delivering the survey and
walking away.
If we run into issues on thesite, let them know immediately.
(25:52):
Hey, there's a homeless campback here.
You might want to get thattaken care of before you buy
this property.
We've run into that recently.
There's environmental concerns.
I mean if we come onto a siteand you see evidence of dumping
or trash or anything, we want toget that information into our
(26:13):
client's hands as early aspossible.
Keep working on the survey andthen delivering the data in a
digestible format.
That title professionalattorneys, the client
representatives, can comprehendand read and then be available
to answer questions, addresscomments in a timely manner.
Be available throughout theduration of the project if
(26:38):
anything comes up.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
So, jim, following up on what Dustin just said and
making the informationuser-friendly we know that our
developer friends are very, verybusy people.
I think it's key making theinformation digestible and
user-friendly and maybe using aheat map or some way of
identifying priorities or thingsthat could be really impactful
(27:04):
financially or hard impacts totimelines.
I think that's really important.
So can you elaborate a littlebit on how you might handle
challenges relating to zoningvariances, reciprocal easements
or any of those other issuesthat Dustin just mentioned that
might turn up in the survey?
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah, there's a lot of value in going through the
CCNRs, the title report, to diginto all the different
declarations, all the covenants,all the deeds that are
referenced, because you can seea story there and it's not been
updated on the drawings and it'sgoing to have a direct impact
(27:49):
on your schedule.
I had a project once where itwas just a tire store and it was
part of a larger subdivisionand we found out that it was
controlled by a managing partnerthat was out of state.
It required sign-off from fourof the junior partners.
I had to physically drive totheir house to get them to sign
(28:11):
off.
It can be a real issue.
I had another project related tothat.
It was another retail storethat was in an out parcel on a
shopping center.
They were ready to go hard withtheir money.
It was a purchase saleagreement and before they had to
sign it they found out thatthey needed a sign off from the
(28:32):
major tenant.
The anchor tenant had to signoff on the project and this was
a week before money had to gohard.
So we had to go right to thecorporate offices, beg and plead
them to please sign it and dowhat we needed to do.
There was another project thathad a sound issue that had to be
resolved.
So we had to pull together thecommunity.
(28:54):
People lived in this upscalecommunity.
We had a sound engineer comeout do sound studies to get it
all taken care of.
Anyway, I hope I answered yourquestion.
I don't want to meander on that.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I think it's interesting just all of the
circumstances that couldpotentially come up.
Every community is so uniquewhat they come up with.
I think it was really reallyimportant, dustin, when you said
take time to listen to yourcommunity, understand the nature
of what they're, where they'recoming from, and then you may be
working on a different problemto solve.
(29:27):
So it sounds like that is areally good way.
But early identification hasbeen really the theme here, I
think from everybody'sconversation, and so it really
ties back to a very thoroughsite investigation report that's
got the components, a clearunderstanding of the client
needs, and then this is one thatgets a little bit tricky and I
(29:52):
see different firms do itdifferent ways.
But I would like to know youropinion on the appropriate time
and who should attend a kickoffmeeting.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Okay, I'll take a step by that.
Well, you have the initialkickoff meeting.
Once the project has gonethrough loan committee and it
was approved and there's an LOIpending, you want to have a
meeting with all the players onyour team.
In this case it's in thepre-construction phase.
You haven't selected acontractor yet, so it would be
with the architect yourself and,as a project manager, and other
(30:28):
stakeholders that are involvedin the process.
So you've got that type of akickoff meeting Once the project
starts to segue into thepermitting stage.
Then you have a more formalmeeting that can be conducted as
a team's call with all theproject players to go through
the list of action items thatare needed Now.
(30:51):
As a precursor to that, you mayhave a pre-site application
meeting with the city and inthat meeting you go over all the
city requirements and thoserequirements may need to update
the SIR report.
There could be additionalissues that surface in that
pre-app meeting with the citythat could affect your
(31:12):
stormwater design, could affect,maybe, access to the project.
Certain people that are on thatcall from the city, like from
Public Works or from Traffic,may say, oh gosh, you know, I
don't know if you can haveaccess on that area of the site.
You know there may be an issue,so that's something you need to
follow up with.
So it's very important in thatkickoff meeting Once the project
(31:36):
goes forward, I like to havestandard.
We used to call ball and courtmeetings.
These would be on a weekly orbi-monthly basis with all the
project players and it goes downto keeping track of all the
conditions, all the action stepsand making sure that all the
project players are doing whatthey need to do to go forward
(31:58):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Dustin, what do you think about timing?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
I agree with Jim.
I mean there's various kickoffmeetings throughout a project,
like Jim said.
I think every one of thoseeveryone involved in the project
up to that point should be apart of it.
I mean within reason.
I mean there's a kickoffmeeting for design.
There's a pre-applicationmeeting with the city.
There's a pre-con meeting whereyou go to construction.
(32:24):
There you know, get everybodyto the table.
You don't want to go down to apunch list at the end of a
project and get in CFO and hearwhy you can't get to too late.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
And I just want to add one thing, I'm sorry to come
to mind.
One of the most importantkickoff meetings are the ones
where you go to the job siteafter your building permit was
just issued, and are the oneswhere you go to the job site
after your building permit wasjust issued and you have a
representative from Public Works, you have a representative from
the Planning Department, youhave one from Stormwater I like
to have them all there at thatmeeting and you go over in
(32:57):
reverse the checklist, theclosing checklist.
They're going to need a backteeth test, they're going to
need a gas pressure test.
They're going to need a gaspressure test.
If there is a grinder pump,they're going to need to have a
test of that pump.
More the merrier.
Get all the decision makers atthat front meeting so you get a
head start addressing all thoseitems.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
I love the idea of working backwards.
I think that is definitely atrick to determining your
priorities and also to make surethat you're hitting the
deadline, because we know thatall of those items have
different lead times and thatare ever-changing, so I think
that has been a real challenge.
So, jim, what are some of thestrategies that you may use to
(33:44):
engage with community members toaddress their concerns during
public hearings?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
We did in one respect .
There's a couple more to cometo mind on strategies.
We used to host neighborhoodmeetings.
I may have mentioned it.
You have them catered withpizza or whatever, and you have
a diagram of the project on foamboards showing what the
project's going to be, and it'sbeen very effective for me doing
(34:11):
that.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
You know it's funny Sometimes.
I mean there's so muchtechnology out there available
to reach out to neighborhoodsand Facebooks and pages and
those kind of connections, but Idon't think you can ever
overvalue the power of personalconnection.
And I think, going back to thetime when you pull people
(34:33):
together from the community,when you offer a little bit of
fellowship there, get to heartheir point of view and their
stories, why does this make adifference?
How is this going to improvepeople's lives or impact what
they're doing or improveconvenience?
And I just think that thatshows a lot of respect and that
is the purpose of all of theseplans.
(34:53):
At the end of the day, thedevelopers they need good plans
to have great projects, buttheir goal is not great plans.
Their goal is to impact thecommunities, provide their
services and improve the livesof the people in the communities
that they serve.
So we have to keep that in gamein mind always.
And then I appreciate all theideas today and strategies to
(35:16):
try to make the process to getthere a little bit easier.
Speaker 4 (35:20):
Yeah, absolutely Yep.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Okay, here's a good one, and it can be Dustin or
Kevin.
What advice would you give todevelopers looking to save money
on survey services withoutcompromised quality?
Speaker 4 (35:36):
So you have to you know.
Again back to the standards.
What expectations do you have?
Giving them all the informationin the beginning and the
communication throughout thesurvey itself?
You know, as a surveyor and aconsultant, you know if I see
(35:56):
things that are out of theordinary on the survey, bringing
those to light to the client assoon as possible.
Do you have anything to add tothat?
No, that's pretty good.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Here's a follow-up question to that.
A lot of times people considersurvey and the survey team and
you mentioned how important itwas to keep that team involved.
How would I keep them involved?
A lot of times people think ofsurvey as something that happens
up front and then in theopportunity at the end there
(36:31):
might be some staking and someother survey services that are
provided.
But can you give me someexamples?
Help me understand how surveycan impact projects in the
middle, specifically feelinginconvenience projects.
Projects in the middlespecifically fueling
inconvenience projects.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
I've always liked the relationship with the legal
team.
You know, when we're workingthrough the title commitment and
exceptions it's.
You know, I'm not a lawyer, Idon't study law, but they do,
but they don't go to the siteand see the site and do the
survey.
So it's like a perfect team.
If we can bounce things off ofeach other, we can talk through
(37:10):
it and why we believe thisexception may affect or not
affect, you know, and then theycan come in with their legal
advice and work as a team tomake a decision and help the
client out in that.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
In that regards, and I would add add I mean keeping
keeping your survey consultantinvolved in the middle might
include the surveyor workingwith the contractor providing
staking services, laying out the, the building and the parking
lot and the utilities from thesame control that we use for the
(37:43):
survey the design is based on.
I think the easiest way to keepyour survey involved throughout
the course of the project ishiring a surveyor, that's an
integrated survey civil designconsulting team.
But if you're not doing that,at least keeping them at the
table during discussions,inviting them to these various
kickoff meetings, holding themaccountable if there's issues,
(38:06):
working through those issues youknow, and then, all the way to
close out of the project,staking the items as built,
providing data at the very end.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
All right, jim.
Well, you have the lucky honorof answering this last pointed
question.
Okay, can you elaborate on theimportance of pre-development
entitlement and permittingprocess to ensure project
success?
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, we may touch on it.
Let me restate it as I saidbefore, it's like the foundation
of the project.
The pre-development stage isvery important because it tells
you all the pieces you have onthe table, how to align those
pieces and which consultants youneed to have on the project.
That will be the most effective.
(38:54):
We spoke just a few minutes agoabout the land use attorney and
lawyers are good atunderstanding the law, but the
practical nature of ittranscends that.
To get things approved, youhave to know how to deal with
the people that are behind thecounter and how to influence
(39:15):
them to get things done and Iremember that on certain
projects that had very how do Isay this?
They were very prejudiced abouthaving a C-store in the
neighborhood.
You need to go to each one ofthe council people that are
voting on that project,understand what are the issues
(39:36):
that they feel very strong aboutand figure out how to address
those issues with propermitigating measures.
That's something that a lawyerdoesn't necessarily do.
A lawyer gets involved is whenyou're in a legal entanglement
where the project is going inthe wrong direction.
Most projects can be worked outearly on by being forthright,
(40:00):
honest, sincere and dealing withthe facts and the project is
can be approved based on useaccording to the zoning code,
then that you'll have a leg up.
And if the the city has aprejudice against this type of
project and they're trying toinfluence it, I had one projects
, for example.
It was a car wash project andthey did not want the car wash
(40:24):
project in that area.
They instead wanted what theycalled a live work type of
project where you have retail onthe top or on the bottom.
It was so ridiculous becausethe project was zoned for a car
wash, but they wanted to impactit and they said we don't care,
that's the way it is it.
(40:45):
And they says we don't care,that's the way it is.
In that case you find out whothe people on the planning
commission that vote on theproject approach them and work
out a very pragmatic solution toget it done.
We got it approved.
So, um, that's the way I viewthat part of the project, the
pre-development phase I lovethat with gentlemen.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
it's been a great conversation today.
We'll wrap it up from here, sothank you much.
So thank you very much for yourtime and insight.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Thank you, it was a pleasure to be here.
Thanks, debbie you.
Hello and welcome to today's episode of Turning Plans
Into Places where we explorethe real world challenges and
solutions that are shaping thefuture of engineering, surveying
and site development.
I'm your host, debbie Jones,and I'm thrilled to be joined by
a powerhouse panel of expertsfrom CEI to dive into everything
(00:28):
from smart site planning tosurvey tech innovations and how
these elements can drive successfor fueling and convenience
store developments across thecountry.
Let me introduce our guests.
First we have Jim Treadwell,clientient Sector Leader for
Fueling and Convenience.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Pleasure to be here, thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Jim brings more than 30 years of experience in all
facets of project delivery, fromleading the client-side
construction efforts to nowserving on the consultant side.
He understands the full lifecycle of these developments and
brings a unique owner'sperspective that's incredibly
valuable.
Joining Jim is Kevin Hall, theDirector of Technical Services
(01:10):
at CEI.
With over 21 years at the firm,kevin is known for bringing
consistency and technicalprecision to complex programs.
His experience with everythingfrom entitlements to permitting
to coordination withmunicipalities across the
country is going to shed a lotof light on the pre-development
(01:31):
process.
And rounding out our expertpanel today is Dustin Riley,
department Manager for NationalSurvey Services.
Dustin oversees surveyoperations coast toast through
internal teams and awell-defined national network.
He is able to integrate newtechnologies like drone and
(01:52):
LIDAR into national rolloutswhile keeping a sharp focus on
data accuracy, speed, value forthe clients while keeping the
information easy anduser-friendly.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Thank you, Debbie.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Welcome you guys.
So for today, our topicswhether you're a developer, a
project manager or part of abrand looking to expand your
footprint, this conversationtoday will be packed with
insights to help you avoidcommon pitfalls and set your
project up for long-term success.
So if you guys are good, let'sjump in.
(02:33):
All right, all right.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
So Jim Kevin Dustin, thank you guys very much for
being here today.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Thanks for having us.
So let's start at the beginning.
How does the pre-developmentprocess in fueling and
convenience store developmentreally shape the outcome of
these types of projects?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I'd love to answer that question, debbie.
It's a very important question.
It's like a foundation thatdetermines the entire life cycle
of the project.
If you don't have a strongfoundation, you'll have a weak
project.
It sets the course and theproject plan to go forward, to
control risk and ensure theproject visibility and success.
(03:10):
So I would say that's the mostimportant part of the process is
the pre-development phase.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
I love that.
So what should developersconsider early on when it comes
to entitlements permitting andsetting realistic timelines?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Well, first of all, the process starts with the
selection of the project team.
You want to make sure that youhave a consultant that's been
vet out, that has the experience, the know-how, to do that
particular project.
In this case we're talkingabout fueling and sea stores.
They are unique in the sensethat you have multiple
(03:47):
operations within that space,versus a big box retail project
where it's just a singular useand there's site considerations
as well as operational issues,and there's also fuel tanks and
other engineering componentsthat need to be properly
coordinated.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
When it comes to site plan design for fueling and
C-stores, what are some of thekey decisions that can make or
break a site?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
I'd like to answer that, if I could.
Access is a very importantaspect of that the location of
your fueling tanks, the designof your fueling island, the
canopy, your path of travelroutes going from the building
to the dispenser areas.
Also, things as small as yourtrash dumpster areas.
(04:39):
You've got service deliveries.
You've got turning radiuses.
You have to navigate all thatwith some of the city
requirements.
You've got setbacksright-of-ways.
You've got stormwaterconsiderations.
There's a whole myriad ofissues that come into play.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
I'd expand on that a little bit too, with local and
jurisdictional zoningrequirements, state requirements
, is this convenience storegoing to sell alcohol?
At least in this part of thecountry, there's a lot of
regulations around sellingalcohol within so many feet of a
church or a school, so it'sbetter to figure those things
(05:20):
out as early as possible.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yeah, that's a very good point and that kind of
falls in line with restrictedcovenants within the title.
If it's an out parcel in ashopping center and you have a
major anchor let's say it's aPublix or a Ralph's, whatever
the store is, it could be a HomeDepot they will have
restrictions on use.
They don't want any competinguses that could impact their
(05:45):
operation.
Or it could be parkingrestrictions, could be sightline
variances Typically, forexample, on a store you cannot
put any.
Your building cannot be withina certain 150 feet of the major
entrance.
So there's a whole slew ofissues that kind of fall in line
(06:05):
with what you were saying.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
So that is actually a perfect segue into the next
question, because what you arereally talking about is finding
out that information early inthe process, at a time that
you're giving the owner the bestopportunity to react, plan,
mitigate or change course withthe least financial impact, and
(06:28):
I think that a lot of that fallsunder the site investigation
process.
So let's talk a little bit moreabout that.
We know that siteinvestigations can sometimes
reveal surprises.
In addition to the items thatyou just mentioned, what are
some common issues that you seeduring this phase, and how can
(06:49):
teams get ahead of them?
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I'll start off on responding and you guys can
chirp in on this.
You could have potential codeviolations that were not
apparent, latent issues such asthat that could impact the
design and operation of theC-Store.
Also, you could haveenvironmental issues.
You could have phase twooperations that are going on
(07:13):
that, indirectly or directly,can impact the project.
Also, you could have we spokeearlier about restricted
covenants that could become verynoticeable affecting the
project.
And geotechnical considerations.
It could be a project sitewhere you've got a high water
table.
You could have soil cohesionissues.
(07:36):
I know if it's a project inFlorida you've got sinkhole
issues.
There's a whole slew ofdifferent things geotechnically
that could adversely affect thedesign of the project.
And then the more common one isjust inaccurate, outdated
drawings that were provided aspart of the sales package.
So you're starting ondeveloping the project and you
(07:59):
find out that the survey wasoutdated, did not reflect some
of the more recent changes tothe site and I'm sure you guys
must have, uh, dealt with thatas well yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
And then sometimes you know these c stores are
going in the growing cities andpopulations, um, there's
infrastructure problems orissues that you can kind of find
out or research in thebeginning.
You know, for example, likesewer capacity and things like
that.
So we've ran into issues withsome municipalities growing and
(08:37):
they're just finding outthemselves that they have a
sewer capacity issue.
So, talking about that in thebeginning, you know the site
investigation report you are.
We are reaching out to thecities and talking to them about
you know where to tap into thewater sewer, you know where
those things are at and otherthings.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
That's a very good point, because you get fooled a
little bit.
You have an existing survey orsite drawing that shows here's
where the water line is, but itdoesn't give you the elevation
of that line Correct.
Or it could be a sanitary lineand you need to have a grinder
pump and a force main to designinto it.
So there's a whole myriad ofdifferent issues that go with
(09:22):
that.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
So I've got a bit of a follow-up to that, Dustin, and
I'd love your take on this.
How do you think thatintegrating survey services
early in the process can reallybenefit the team and the client?
So we've been talking kind offrom an engineering perspective.
But I know when Jim mentionedthe client packet, so the client
packet comes to you, it's got asurvey in there and then that
(09:47):
is what you're, that's basicallywhat you're starting with.
So walk me a little bit throughthat process and things you
look for.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Absolutely so.
Integrated survey in thebeginning, I think is critical
to your, to your developmentprojects for a number of reasons
.
I mean to Jim's point.
A lot of times the seller has apacket of historical data
available.
It's probably not up to date.
It probably doesn't have theinformation you need on it.
Having an integrated surveyteam with your design team,
(10:16):
whether they're in the samecompany or not, I think is
absolutely important on thefront end and provide.
I mean in the survey request.
When you're requesting a surveyfrom a consultant, give them all
the information you have.
I mean, if you call and ask fora survey because you're buying
this property and you don't tellthem what you're planning on
(10:37):
doing with the property, whereyou're planning on connecting to
utilities, how you plan onaccessing the property, I can
almost guarantee you won't getall the information you need.
Give them everything you have.
It may be a rough concept siteplan.
You may not know where you'regoing to tie into utilities, but
you know what utilities youneed, you know.
Give all that information onthe request up front.
(10:58):
Title commitment, if it'savailable, the exception
documents, if they're available,plat records, deed records,
everything you can get yourhands on as early as possible
will get the most information inthe survey is the best chance
you have at getting all theinformation you need in one shot
(11:20):
is a flood hazard informationwhere we may need to get a LOMA,
you know, letter of amendmentand an elevation certificate,
and I think isn't it true.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
nowadays with the drones and the LIDAR, that
process becomes a little easierto do.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
It is.
I mean there's a lot of goodGIS data available FEMA,
floodplain information, base,level engineering data that we
can use during an SIR.
You know, pull that data andjust get an idea.
But yes, during the surveyphase nail it down and determine
exactly how it's going toaffect and cut your losses if
(12:01):
it's going to hinder thedevelopment.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
That sounds good.
That's a really great point,though that was brought up.
So there is an awful lot ofbuzz around new survey tech
drones, lidar, mobile scanning.
What is actually working wellin the field right now and where
do you see the biggest impactbased on technology right now on
(12:24):
project delivery?
Speaker 3 (12:25):
I'll take that.
I mean first off, from a surveymanager perspective, there's a
safety aspect.
I mean dangerous or sites thathave fall hazards or water
hazards or trip you know timberlaid down during the tornado a
couple years ago we did a lot ofwork to mitigate the tree fall
(12:49):
and clean up efforts, and beingable to fly over the side and
collect all that data withoutsending humans through there is
a great advancement intechnology, in my opinion.
From a client perspective, it'scollecting data as efficiently
as possible.
We're getting a thousand timesmore data than we've ever got in
(13:10):
less time than it's ever takenJust getting a more complete
picture of the site, minimizingtrips to go back to the site.
I mean, if we go out and flythis site on the front end, we
extract all the data.
We go out and fly this site onthe front end, we extract all
the data, provide thedeliverables, and then we find
out three months down the roadthat actually this access isn't
(13:31):
going to work.
We're going to need to moveover.
We need some more data herethat we didn't know we needed.
Well, now, instead of drivingback to the site, I can go back
to my data set, pull more data.
It's priceless in our line ofwork and the biggest impacts
moving forward.
I think AI is the next phase ofthis technology.
(13:51):
You know we're getting prettygood at flying drones and
collecting data and processingLIDAR and ortho imagery.
The next step is using the AIto extract the data we want
autonomously and I think we'llsee that in the next few years.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
I love that.
Well, this will be a good.
This will be a fun question.
We often hear developers sayjust give me the cheapest survey
.
They want the least that theyneed.
They're trying to invest thelowest amount of capital at the
beginning of the project beforethey know that it's sure.
So they're really trying to besafe with their money.
(14:28):
But we often hear developerssay I just I need the bare
minimum.
Give me the cheapest so that Ican check this box.
What would you say to thatmindset?
Speaker 3 (14:39):
I'd like to take that .
My recommendation would be tochange your thinking from the
cheapest survey to the mostcomplete survey.
Everybody wants all of ourservices for as cheap as you can
get them.
I mean, nobody wants to spendmoney they don't have to spend.
I respect that.
But going in with the mindsetof I'm going to get the cheapest
(15:01):
survey almost always costs moretime, more effort throughout
the project, missing information, misrepresented information,
not having what you need on thefront end.
If it, if you go into this andsave a couple of thousand
dollars on your survey and itcosts you 60 or 90 days to get a
CFO, did you really save anymoney?
(15:24):
It's not a cheap survey.
At that point I would go intoit with the intent of getting
the most complete survey for thebest price, if you can.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
At that point in the survey you're still vetting out
things, you're still looking athow the site, the topography of
the site, lays, and so gettingthe more information you can in
the beginning is going to helpeverybody and all the partners
in the project to understandwhat complications there are
(16:02):
with the site and how you'regoing to come Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, I can definitely see how that would
actually save probably a lotmore than a couple hundred, you
might say.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Time is money.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Time is money.
Let's get back and go ahead andwrap up the last question that
I have regarding siteinvestigations, because it sort
of leads a little bit to thislocal idea.
Let's talk about somethingdevelopers are always trying to
figure out Do you go with alocal engineer in doing these
(16:37):
site investigations and survey?
So, do you go with a localengineer who knows the area, or
do you go with a national teamthat brings consistency across
the market?
What's the right mix and how doyou know?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I'd like to take a stab at that.
I think you go with the rightengineer, one who understands
the requirements of a particulararea area.
It's not based on physicaldistance to the building
department itself, but it'sunderstanding how the building
department operates.
In terms of our plan submissionschedules, review requirements,
(17:15):
everything nowadays is handleda lot differently than it was 25
years ago.
It's more automated.
You have to understand what therequirements are and how to
formulate a plan to deal withthose requirements.
We're lucky because we've gotoffices across the country.
Each one of our offices has asphere of influence that allows
(17:39):
us to effectively deal withthings.
I know for the Florida market,for example.
I've dealt with most of theplanning departments in that
area.
I understand how to get thingsthrough the system, how to
untangle knots and formulate apathway to address very
pertinent issues.
So we're very lucky to havethat expertise.
(18:01):
And again, it's not based onlocality, it's based on
knowledge base.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
I would expand on that some time.
I mean the only time.
I would recommend a localpresence.
If you're the owner, developerand it's the community you live
and operate in, it might benefityou to have a local consultant.
If you're working on a programacross the country of several
stores, you're going to benefitfrom having a program team on
each project that can learn frommistakes, take those to the
(18:31):
next project.
Anybody can read the code for acity and learn it and make an
application, but 20 years ago Ithink it was a more critical
element.
I mean nowadays I don't thinkit's as important.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
I want to also add to what you just said.
I've been involved in projectswhere we had local engineers
working on a project within a15-mile distance and they were
not keeping up with the planningresolution minutes, the
follow-up requirements.
The letter would come from theplanning department in April and
I find out they didn't addressthose issues until three months
(19:13):
later.
So the fact that they werelocal was not an advantage in
that case.
So to me it's doing thehomework up front.
Reminds me of when I was inarchitectural school.
They told me you can accomplishmore with a pen and pencil.
In the very beginning chart outwhat the issues are, diagnose
the problem.
It's almost like a surgicalteam going into a hospital
(19:35):
working on a patient.
Before you operate on thatpatient, you have a pre-op
meeting to go over what theissues are, what the mitigation
process would be to resolvethings.
So that's my take on it.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Well said.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
And I would like to add that consistency, because
you know you've got people onyour team.
You don't want to train newpeople every time.
With a local consultant, theowner, the client's going to
have to tell them what theirexpectations are for every local
consultant they're going to use.
(20:11):
If you have a national team,they already know that there are
times that they may have to geta local person involved at
there are times that they mighthave to get a local person
involved, but now that theprogram is responsible for
training, that person and notthe client.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
And I just want to mention one thing.
We talk about proximity,locality, a lot of states,
you've got state offices thatare located 175 miles away from
where the project site is.
You've got agencies spread allover.
It's having the expertise tounderstand what the purposes of
those agencies and how theyrelate to the project itself.
(20:49):
So, again, I really feel thatthe locality issue is not as
significant as it needs to be.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
One thing that was surprising to me, just to wrap
up the site investigation pieceis how often fueling and
convenience stores get pushbackfrom the community.
What is the key to earningcommunity trust and support, and
how can engineers anddevelopers work together to tell
the right story about theseprojects?
Speaker 2 (21:21):
I'd love to answer that the primary goal there is
to create solidarity with theneighborhood.
You need to stress the valuethat the project is bringing to
the local area.
It may also entailparticipating in common causes.
If it's an area where they havea book drive, where they're
trying to help the schools, youmay want to participate in that
(21:45):
as a co-sponsor.
That's always important.
The other thing is to haveneighborhood meetings where you
discuss some of the problemsthat they have about the project
.
Let's say it's a noise issue orthey're concerned about the
possibility of having crime inthe area.
You try to address those issuesand maybe they feel that the
(22:09):
project is intrusive and thatthe size of the roof is too big
and they don't want to look outand they all of this stuff.
You come up with differentmeasures.
One of the things that you needyour consultant to do is become
a strong advocate for theproject in planning commission
air hearings to articulate allthese mitigating factors
(22:30):
successfully.
I know I was on some meetingswhere the planning director did
not want to approve the project,but we had a side caucus I
requested.
I had the planners in the room.
We worked out a solution wherewe had to put up some additional
landscaping along an edge ofthe property to comply with
(22:53):
their aesthetic standards.
So it's communication,involvement and coming up with
some sort of contribution.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Kevin, you've mentioned a lot about
consistency, but how do youensure each piece of parcel of
land is very different?
How do you ensure theconsistency and quality in
survey standards acrossdifferent projects and locations
?
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Yeah, so that's knowing your client's
expectations and quality insurvey standards across
different projects and locations.
Yeah, so that's knowing yourclient's expectations.
We develop checklists of theTable A items and the ALTA when
we review it.
So we've got a checklist of allthe items that are reported to
the client to make sure that weeither show them, label them or
(23:40):
note them and how they affectthe property, and then just
training your team to be on thelookout for those things.
You know you have to kind ofstep back and look at the
property as a whole, see whatthe client's goal is for that
property.
And, you know, just imagine ifit was your property in your
(24:01):
hands.
What are you going to do?
And so you have to look at thebig picture and not get focused
on just that property itself.
You kind of have to see how itaffects the joiners and you know
, maybe there's some runoff froma water, runoff from other
other properties that you'regoing to have to deal with.
You want to communicate, tocommunicate to that, to that.
(24:22):
You want to communicate that toyour team of engineers.
And then, you know, keepingyour engineers in the loop.
When we hand off the survey toour engineering team, we have a
debriefing.
You know, these are the thingsthat we saw.
These are the things that wethought you might want to know
and then keep them in the loopof that too.
So we're not just sliding asurvey under the door and
(24:44):
they're going to design.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
That.
That is actually a really greatpoint, dustin, if you are, you
know, and I've I've seen it inthe past from the client aspect
of things, where there'll be abig gathering of information and
then basically there's kind ofan information dump on the
client.
So what kind of steps do youtake or what would you expect?
(25:08):
I guess what I'm really lookingfor here is how do you make the
information, all theinformation that you've gathered
, user friendly and applicable,because most of the people that
you've gathered user-friendlyand applicable, because most of
the people that are reviewingour plans are not other
surveyors or engineers.
What steps I guess really whatI'm looking for to make that
user-friendly?
Speaker 3 (25:30):
That's a good question.
To reiterate what Kevin said, Imean client expectations is the
first piece of that.
Understanding your client'sexpectations and needs is the
first piece of that.
Understanding your client'sexpectations and needs and then
just keeping the client updatedas the project goes along.
I mean, to Kevin's point, notjust delivering the survey and
walking away.
If we run into issues on thesite, let them know immediately.
(25:52):
Hey, there's a homeless campback here.
You might want to get thattaken care of before you buy
this property.
We've run into that recently.
There's environmental concerns.
I mean if we come onto a siteand you see evidence of dumping
or trash or anything, we want toget that information into our
(26:13):
client's hands as early aspossible.
Keep working on the survey andthen delivering the data in a
digestible format.
That title professionalattorneys, the client
representatives, can comprehendand read and then be available
to answer questions, addresscomments in a timely manner.
Be available throughout theduration of the project if
(26:38):
anything comes up.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
So, jim, following up on what Dustin just said and
making the informationuser-friendly we know that our
developer friends are very, verybusy people.
I think it's key making theinformation digestible and
user-friendly and maybe using aheat map or some way of
identifying priorities or thingsthat could be really impactful
(27:04):
financially or hard impacts totimelines.
I think that's really important.
So can you elaborate a littlebit on how you might handle
challenges relating to zoningvariances, reciprocal easements
or any of those other issuesthat Dustin just mentioned that
might turn up in the survey?
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah, there's a lot of value in going through the
CCNRs, the title report, to diginto all the different
declarations, all the covenants,all the deeds that are
referenced, because you can seea story there and it's not been
updated on the drawings and it'sgoing to have a direct impact
(27:49):
on your schedule.
I had a project once where itwas just a tire store and it was
part of a larger subdivisionand we found out that it was
controlled by a managing partnerthat was out of state.
It required sign-off from fourof the junior partners.
I had to physically drive totheir house to get them to sign
(28:11):
off.
It can be a real issue.
I had another project related tothat.
It was another retail storethat was in an out parcel on a
shopping center.
They were ready to go hard withtheir money.
It was a purchase saleagreement and before they had to
sign it they found out thatthey needed a sign off from the
(28:32):
major tenant.
The anchor tenant had to signoff on the project and this was
a week before money had to gohard.
So we had to go right to thecorporate offices, beg and plead
them to please sign it and dowhat we needed to do.
There was another project thathad a sound issue that had to be
resolved.
So we had to pull together thecommunity.
(28:54):
People lived in this upscalecommunity.
We had a sound engineer comeout do sound studies to get it
all taken care of.
Anyway, I hope I answered yourquestion.
I don't want to meander on that.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I think it's interesting just all of the
circumstances that couldpotentially come up.
Every community is so uniquewhat they come up with.
I think it was really reallyimportant, dustin, when you said
take time to listen to yourcommunity, understand the nature
of what they're, where they'recoming from, and then you may be
working on a different problemto solve.
(29:27):
So it sounds like that is areally good way.
But early identification hasbeen really the theme here, I
think from everybody'sconversation, and so it really
ties back to a very thoroughsite investigation report that's
got the components, a clearunderstanding of the client
needs, and then this is one thatgets a little bit tricky and I
(29:52):
see different firms do itdifferent ways.
But I would like to know youropinion on the appropriate time
and who should attend a kickoffmeeting.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Okay, I'll take a step by that.
Well, you have the initialkickoff meeting.
Once the project has gonethrough loan committee and it
was approved and there's an LOIpending, you want to have a
meeting with all the players onyour team.
In this case it's in thepre-construction phase.
You haven't selected acontractor yet, so it would be
with the architect yourself and,as a project manager, and other
(30:28):
stakeholders that are involvedin the process.
So you've got that type of akickoff meeting Once the project
starts to segue into thepermitting stage.
Then you have a more formalmeeting that can be conducted as
a team's call with all theproject players to go through
the list of action items thatare needed Now.
(30:51):
As a precursor to that, you mayhave a pre-site application
meeting with the city and inthat meeting you go over all the
city requirements and thoserequirements may need to update
the SIR report.
There could be additionalissues that surface in that
pre-app meeting with the citythat could affect your
(31:12):
stormwater design, could affect,maybe, access to the project.
Certain people that are on thatcall from the city, like from
Public Works or from Traffic,may say, oh gosh, you know, I
don't know if you can haveaccess on that area of the site.
You know there may be an issue,so that's something you need to
follow up with.
So it's very important in thatkickoff meeting Once the project
(31:36):
goes forward, I like to havestandard.
We used to call ball and courtmeetings.
These would be on a weekly orbi-monthly basis with all the
project players and it goes downto keeping track of all the
conditions, all the action stepsand making sure that all the
project players are doing whatthey need to do to go forward
(31:58):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Dustin, what do you think about timing?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
I agree with Jim.
I mean there's various kickoffmeetings throughout a project,
like Jim said.
I think every one of thoseeveryone involved in the project
up to that point should be apart of it.
I mean within reason.
I mean there's a kickoffmeeting for design.
There's a pre-applicationmeeting with the city.
There's a pre-con meeting whereyou go to construction.
(32:24):
There you know, get everybodyto the table.
You don't want to go down to apunch list at the end of a
project and get in CFO and hearwhy you can't get to too late.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
And I just want to add one thing, I'm sorry to come
to mind.
One of the most importantkickoff meetings are the ones
where you go to the job siteafter your building permit was
just issued, and are the oneswhere you go to the job site
after your building permit wasjust issued and you have a
representative from Public Works, you have a representative from
the Planning Department, youhave one from Stormwater I like
to have them all there at thatmeeting and you go over in
(32:57):
reverse the checklist, theclosing checklist.
They're going to need a backteeth test, they're going to
need a gas pressure test.
They're going to need a gaspressure test.
If there is a grinder pump,they're going to need to have a
test of that pump.
More the merrier.
Get all the decision makers atthat front meeting so you get a
head start addressing all thoseitems.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
I love the idea of working backwards.
I think that is definitely atrick to determining your
priorities and also to make surethat you're hitting the
deadline, because we know thatall of those items have
different lead times and thatare ever-changing, so I think
that has been a real challenge.
So, jim, what are some of thestrategies that you may use to
(33:44):
engage with community members toaddress their concerns during
public hearings?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
We did in one respect .
There's a couple more to cometo mind on strategies.
We used to host neighborhoodmeetings.
I may have mentioned it.
You have them catered withpizza or whatever, and you have
a diagram of the project on foamboards showing what the
project's going to be, and it'sbeen very effective for me doing
(34:11):
that.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
You know it's funny Sometimes.
I mean there's so muchtechnology out there available
to reach out to neighborhoodsand Facebooks and pages and
those kind of connections, but Idon't think you can ever
overvalue the power of personalconnection.
And I think, going back to thetime when you pull people
(34:33):
together from the community,when you offer a little bit of
fellowship there, get to heartheir point of view and their
stories, why does this make adifference?
How is this going to improvepeople's lives or impact what
they're doing or improveconvenience?
And I just think that thatshows a lot of respect and that
is the purpose of all of theseplans.
(34:53):
At the end of the day, thedevelopers they need good plans
to have great projects, buttheir goal is not great plans.
Their goal is to impact thecommunities, provide their
services and improve the livesof the people in the communities
that they serve.
So we have to keep that in gamein mind always.
And then I appreciate all theideas today and strategies to
(35:16):
try to make the process to getthere a little bit easier.
Speaker 4 (35:20):
Yeah, absolutely Yep.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Okay, here's a good one, and it can be Dustin or
Kevin.
What advice would you give todevelopers looking to save money
on survey services withoutcompromised quality?
Speaker 4 (35:36):
So you have to you know.
Again back to the standards.
What expectations do you have?
Giving them all the informationin the beginning and the
communication throughout thesurvey itself?
You know, as a surveyor and aconsultant, you know if I see
(35:56):
things that are out of theordinary on the survey, bringing
those to light to the client assoon as possible.
Do you have anything to add tothat?
No, that's pretty good.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Here's a follow-up question to that.
A lot of times people considersurvey and the survey team and
you mentioned how important itwas to keep that team involved.
How would I keep them involved?
A lot of times people think ofsurvey as something that happens
up front and then in theopportunity at the end there
(36:31):
might be some staking and someother survey services that are
provided.
But can you give me someexamples?
Help me understand how surveycan impact projects in the
middle, specifically feelinginconvenience projects.
Projects in the middlespecifically fueling
inconvenience projects.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
I've always liked the relationship with the legal
team.
You know, when we're workingthrough the title commitment and
exceptions it's.
You know, I'm not a lawyer, Idon't study law, but they do,
but they don't go to the siteand see the site and do the
survey.
So it's like a perfect team.
If we can bounce things off ofeach other, we can talk through
(37:10):
it and why we believe thisexception may affect or not
affect, you know, and then theycan come in with their legal
advice and work as a team tomake a decision and help the
client out in that.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
In that regards, and I would add add I mean keeping
keeping your survey consultantinvolved in the middle might
include the surveyor workingwith the contractor providing
staking services, laying out the, the building and the parking
lot and the utilities from thesame control that we use for the
(37:43):
survey the design is based on.
I think the easiest way to keepyour survey involved throughout
the course of the project ishiring a surveyor, that's an
integrated survey civil designconsulting team.
But if you're not doing that,at least keeping them at the
table during discussions,inviting them to these various
kickoff meetings, holding themaccountable if there's issues,
(38:06):
working through those issues youknow, and then, all the way to
close out of the project,staking the items as built,
providing data at the very end.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
All right, jim.
Well, you have the lucky honorof answering this last pointed
question.
Okay, can you elaborate on theimportance of pre-development
entitlement and permittingprocess to ensure project
success?
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, we may touch on it.
Let me restate it as I saidbefore, it's like the foundation
of the project.
The pre-development stage isvery important because it tells
you all the pieces you have onthe table, how to align those
pieces and which consultants youneed to have on the project.
That will be the most effective.
(38:54):
We spoke just a few minutes agoabout the land use attorney and
lawyers are good atunderstanding the law, but the
practical nature of ittranscends that.
To get things approved, youhave to know how to deal with
the people that are behind thecounter and how to influence
(39:15):
them to get things done and Iremember that on certain
projects that had very how do Isay this?
They were very prejudiced abouthaving a C-store in the
neighborhood.
You need to go to each one ofthe council people that are
voting on that project,understand what are the issues
(39:36):
that they feel very strong aboutand figure out how to address
those issues with propermitigating measures.
That's something that a lawyerdoesn't necessarily do.
A lawyer gets involved is whenyou're in a legal entanglement
where the project is going inthe wrong direction.
Most projects can be worked outearly on by being forthright,
(40:00):
honest, sincere and dealing withthe facts and the project is
can be approved based on useaccording to the zoning code,
then that you'll have a leg up.
And if the the city has aprejudice against this type of
project and they're trying toinfluence it, I had one projects
, for example.
It was a car wash project andthey did not want the car wash
(40:24):
project in that area.
They instead wanted what theycalled a live work type of
project where you have retail onthe top or on the bottom.
It was so ridiculous becausethe project was zoned for a car
wash, but they wanted to impactit and they said we don't care,
that's the way it is it.
(40:45):
And they says we don't care,that's the way it is.
In that case you find out whothe people on the planning
commission that vote on theproject approach them and work
out a very pragmatic solution toget it done.
We got it approved.
So, um, that's the way I viewthat part of the project, the
pre-development phase I lovethat with gentlemen.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
it's been a great conversation today.
We'll wrap it up from here, sothank you much.
So thank you very much for yourtime and insight.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Thank you, it was a pleasure to be here.
Thanks, debbie you.
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