#32: JASON ISAACS Gets us in the Head of his 'White Lotus' Character, Talks Star Trek: Discovery and Some TV Topics

#31: JASON ISAACS Gets us in the Head of his 'White Lotus' Character, Talks 'Star Trek: Discovery' and Some TV Topics.

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Hey, where's the remote? It's time for ATV Topics, where
those who love television discuss the series and
performances that should be on your radar.
Hello and welcome to TV Topics. This is your host, Stephen
Pursikowski. I'm an entertainment journalist
and a critic with a lifelong love of television.

(00:24):
Over the last decade have conducted interviews with
hundreds of the most talented celebrities including Dick Van
Dyke, Natalie Portman, Bryan Cranston, and so many more.
After speaking with them, I often found myself wondering
what are they watching on TV? So I started a podcast to find
the answer to that question. TV Topics.
For each episode, I invite one guest to sit down with me to

(00:47):
discuss the TV they love, plus how it helped to shape them and
their careers. Today, my guest is the great
Jason Isaacs. The actor who infuriated
audiences is a ruthless Lucius Malfoy in the Harry Potter
series. He kept in the USS Discovery
across the universe while harboring A shocking secret in
Star Trek Discovery and terrorized everyone around him

(01:09):
as Captain Hook in Peter Pan. He recently earned a new legion
of fans with his work as Tim Radcliffe, an affluent
businessman grappling with the secret that may destroy him and
his family in The White Lotus. While you may not always like
his characters, he always leavesan impact.
So grab a seat on the TV Topics couch and enjoy my conversation
with Jason Isaacs. Hi, this is Jason Isaacs and

(01:32):
today I'm hanging out with Stephen Prusakowski on TV
Topics. Well, welcome to TV Topics,
Jason, and congratulations on your Emmy nomination.
Thanks very much. Feels very, you know, honestly,
it feels a bit strange because Iwish there were no categories
and it was just the entire cast were nominated together as being
the luckiest bastards in show business because we get to bring

(01:53):
Mike White's characters to life.It feels odd for anyone to be
singled out at all. And well, luckily they did
nominate quite a few, but still,there are like it.
It was so many great, great characters and great
performances that kind of weave together to make this season and
all the seasons. I think what happens is you get
nominated in direct proportionalcorrelation to how dramatic the

(02:14):
stuff you get to do is. So the people who do the
brilliant subtle stuff for maybethe, the, the craft in it is
noticed and the people who get, you know, I got a 7 course
banquet to do like suicidal despair and murder and spiritual
redemption and all, and all those things.
And so that it seems more noticeable and it's not more
difficult. I mean, it's, it's more
upsetting maybe, but but other people and I thought my kids did

(02:36):
amazing stuff. Patrick, Simon, Sarah,
Catherine, I'm, I'm so proud of what they did on screen.
Fabulous. Well, we'll hop into that in
just a few minutes and we'll talk White Lotus, but first
let's do some TV topics Remember, there's no pressure,
there's no right or wrong answers.
It's just fun. I'm.
Really impressed now just to give right answers.
As soon as you said I felt nothing before.
Go on. I mean, I'm drinking tea, by the

(02:56):
way, because I'm an Englishman. No worries, I'm drinking water
because it's 90° out here. Yeah, fair enough.
So looking back over the years, what has your relationship with
television been where your TV junkie watches everything?
You're very selective. Do you have go to shows?
Because I'm English and because I can, I pronounce my teas as a
matter of course. People assume that.

(03:17):
People in America have always assumed that I've had a much
better education than I have. And in fact, I come from a
household where all we did was watch TV crammed together.
I got three brothers, four of usand my parents were just crammed
together on the sofa when whoever, if the space was taken
up, the others would sit on the floor and we just watched
television. That's what we did in my
household growing up. That's all we ever did.
There were, you know, there wereinitially 3 channels, then there

(03:38):
were four channels. Now there's about 8 billion
channels and it is a very working class habit and one I
still stuck to. My wife doesn't have it.
The TV was always on in my household.
Yeah, and it was a huge part of my childhood, less as I've grown
up, just because I'm working anddoing stuff and and away from
the screen. But I Yeah, I'm still stuck

(03:59):
looking at a screen a billion hours a day.
Yeah, I love television. I always have.
Now I work in IT. It's harder to watch things
where I can see the joins, you know, like a Carpenter looking
at a cupboard. So what?
Was the 1st prime time show you remember loving and doesn't.
No matter how good or bad it was, it was your show.
Ironically. Well, so on Sundays we would go

(04:21):
and get fish and chips being theEnglish national dish.
And my, my dad and I would go, Iwould go next door and buy some
cheap comics. So I've read all the DC and
Marvel Comics out of order because they were second hand.
So I, I have my own origin stories I made-up.
They would come back and we'd all watch Hogan's Heroes.
I remember watching Hogan's Heroes together and then Star
Trek and the whole family be glued to Star Trek when I was a

(04:44):
kid. You know, we would argue about
what to watch. Ironic given there were only two
or three channels, but you know,sometimes I was forced to watch
the whole country was forced to watch documentaries or whatever.
You know, high end drama was on brides every business or
something. But but nobody ever argued about
Star Trek. It was Star Trek and, and the
original series. This would be where I was taught
how to ban by William Shatner and Lennon.

(05:04):
Well, not by William Shatner by by Captain Kirk, I think it's
fair to say. And Mr. Spock and, and who knew?
I I mean, who would have, I would have even dreamed that 40
something years later I'd be standing captaining my own
Starship saying energize warp speed or wobbling when the when
the Rockets hit. So that's the first thing I
remember watching and loving when I was a kid.

(05:24):
I'm being terrified, obviously. What was the the experience like
the first time you saw yourself in that uniform?
The first time you transformed into a a member of the Star Trek
universe? Well, the.
Uniform is a whole other discussion because they were
very wary because Patrick Patrick Stewart as Picard had
this very famous move where he'dstand up from a chair and he'd
pull his jacket down because it's always it kind of it's

(05:46):
tight and lifted up when he was sitting down.
And they didn't want that to happen to us.
So they made these fabulous costumes where there's the
jacket actually zipped secretly to the pants and they were skin
tight these things I mean so like sausage skin tight.
We all had to wear these kind ofPolish Spanx on steroids
underneath the the wig winter. So if you swallowed a tomato
pip, you look pregnant. Anyway, these things and they

(06:08):
were fine, except if you lifted your arms up above your your
waist when you gave yourself a front wedgie and displayed far
more to the network audience than they'd planned on.
And so we had to wear, there wasa notion for a while that I
should wear a different jacket for standing up and sitting
down. And I went, what about the
scenes where I actually stand orsit in camera?
And they're like, oh, maybe not.And then we started to wear
dancers, supports and things so that things were, you know, we

(06:31):
look like Bobby and Ken and not like human beings.
So the costume was a whole new thing.
And then Jonathan Frakes came in, fabulous.
Jonathan, who played Riker and directed lots of the movies and
lots of Picard and other things.And I remember the first day he
went, how's it all going, guys? And we went, he goes, you having
trouble with your hands? We went, yeah.
He goes, let me tell you something.
Whoever folds their arms to the beginning wins the scene.

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But because there's no pockets in space, there's no nothing to
do, there's no props to fill with.
He goes. But never, ever put your hands
on your hips in the beginning ofa scene because you can't get
them off. And it turned out to be true,
but it hasn't just stuck with them for the rest of the same.
So there's unique challenges to being a Star Trek such a Captain
Ori, a member of the ship. That's great.

(07:15):
I mean, to have that be, you know, those moments, sitting
together as a family and then one day be there.
It was amazing. Also amazing that the technology
hadn't changed. This is I've left my part in the
legacy of Star Trek because the technology hadn't changed.
When you get hit by a torpedo, they just went 123 left, 123
right and two things happen. One is some people wanted to be

(07:39):
cool, so we're all rocking and someone, some people go and then
you go dude, come on, we're all fine how come this doesn't
affect you, these torpedoes? The other thing was I went and I
came with this revolutionary idea.
It's been in place for 60 years and I went how about you say the
direction before and you go left2-3 go and they went genius.

(07:59):
So then because there's some people went in the opposite
direction, left 2-3 guns, we'd all do the same direction save a
lot of time. And then I had that is the most
left in the Star Trek Canon. So what about shows that make
you laugh? Is there something you put on
when you're, you know, for a pick me up or for a good laugh?
Well, Larry Sanders, I think is it was still a worker.
Gene is still the most acerbic show ever made about show

(08:22):
business and all completely accurate, which I love.
I think Veep is genius. I think Armando's, I was in
Death of Stalin, which I, I couldn't believe the gift that
was because I've not known for acomedy.
Some people might think everything I've done is
hilarious, but I, I haven't doneit, you know, intensely on
screen. So to be in Death of Stalin is
fab. By the way, if anyone's watching
this, like many people who've avoided it, thinking it's a film

(08:43):
about Stalin's death, it's not. It's an uproarious political
satire. I think Veep's brilliant and The
Thick of It All, that's brilliant.
We all watch Parks and Rec as a family over and over again and
think it's fantastic, and I've recently been watching every
single word that Norm MacDonald ever said.
He makes me laugh when he just stands there.
A very sad loss there, but just same thing I I got into that

(09:06):
endless loop of like, oh wait, there's a clip of of norm
watching I. Haven't seen.
Watch the next one. Watch the next one.
The ones that you've seen a dozen times.
They're still funny. He's got some of the best
delivery ever. I was looking at it for some
reason for a Canadian action or something.
Anyway, I looked at it and of course the algorithm serves it
up again. And when algorithms keep serving
me up things, I kind of want to defy Silicon Valley, and so I

(09:26):
deliberately choose something else.
But with Norm, they can just keep it coming.
That's fine by me. Death of Stalin, by the way, my
daughter's high school history teacher recommended they watch
it. Yeah.
Because it's accurate. Amazingly everything in it
happened, which is my bug. Whereas the Patriot, for
instance, which many people approach me all the time to go,
Oh my, my 5th grade history teacher showed us a patron and I

(09:48):
go what? And then and then use that as an
opportunity to tell you what really happened.
They go, what do you mean? People think it's it's, you
know, they think it's a Ken Burns documentary of the
Revolutionary War. The page is a brilliant film and
I I love it and people adore it.It's on every July the 4th.
But it I I would venture to say that Harry Potter is more

(10:09):
historically accurate than The Patriot.
How about crying? Do you cry while you watch TV?
Is has there any shows that madeyou cry recently?
Oh my God, I cried everything. I'm, I'm the, the weepy.
I cried the AT&T commercials. No, I'm, I cry.
I'm a little bit of pop music. It's something my wife and I
have very, very different peoplein about a million different
ways. But the one thing we have in
common is a, is a terrible trigger of sentimentality.

(10:31):
And we, we just need to hear half a story on the radio or a
verse of the song. We look at each other.
My, my kids think it's ridiculous.
I have it on planes awfully everything I watched.
There's something there's a, youknow, aviation Lacrimo syndrome,
I think it's known as and peoplecry on planes in ways that they
don't on the land. And invariably I will have snot
pouring down my face and and tears out my eyes.

(10:52):
And just when the flight attendant goes would you like
the chicken or the pasta? And I'm like, they look at me
and they think you must have just died.
I remember sitting next to a soldier once soldiers tend to
approach me because I've been inin a black all down in Green
Zone Patriot and some British soldiers things.
And I don't know why would they talk to me as if I I too have
been a soldier, which I can be honest, it's all pretend.

(11:14):
But now that I remember sitting next to a guy on a plane a long
time ago talking about being a Parachute Regiment soldier
because I was in something in England where I played about
PTSD. And then and he felt he found a
kindred spirit. And then Mr. Holland's Opus was
playing on the screen, which is a weepy about Richard Dreyfuss

(11:34):
conducting an orchestra, and I started to cry.
It's such an embarrassing First of all, put sunglasses on,
hoping he thought it was an allergic reaction.
And then I just couldn't hide mychoking and sobbing.
He was so disgusted he moved seats.
Yeah, that's PTSD right there. Doesn't every time he gets in a
plane now he's like that's that's too much think.

(11:55):
About The thing about my job, oddly, is that I'm I need to or,
or maybe I've always been like This is why I was drawn to it.
Keep childlike emotions very close to the surface.
You ought to be able to cry and laugh and be responsive.
I remember, I remember them teaching us fencing at drama
school and my now wife, then friend who became my girlfriend

(12:20):
and then wife. We were the first year
representatives at drama school and we were tasked to go to the
teachers and go and for the fencing, what are we doing with
the how many, how often are we going to do it?
Actually, it turns out I've donesword fighting about 10 times.
But nonetheless, we went to the teachers and we went, we went to
the head of the school and we went, why are you teachers
fancying how much sword fight are we going to do, you know,
grow up and get rid of the 20th century.

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And he said it's not for the sword fighting, it's to make you
present and responsive. And there's something about
acting where you need to be in the moment.
You need to be there able to able to let emotions flow
through your sudden flushes of anger find you, sudden flushes
of tears find you and stuff. You can't plan those things.
And so often hanging out with children, with actors from

(13:02):
children, or if you come to the set, you'll think that actors
are behaving like children. And we are often.
But it's to in order to keep that stuff close to the surface
and not do what the rest of us do in life, which is suppress
it. And certainly I needed it in
White Lotus. Oh, yeah, let's get into White
Lotus right now. And I was loved the season,
loved your work. And I was wondering what what

(13:23):
was it when you first looked at the scripts?
What about the character most intrigued you about playing Tim?
Well, it was what scared me really.
I mean, scared in a good way, scared like, oh, this is a
challenge. This is, I mean, often I get off
of parts and I go, I can see me doing that.
I can, I know what that'll be like and I think I can do it.
I looked at this and I thought, wow, his journey is entirely

(13:45):
internal. He's disconnected from the other
people. Acting is about connection.
This is a guy. Mike is creating someone.
I believe him. But .01% of the iceberg is
showing. And in fact, he's showing in a
way that the people around him can't even tell what's going on.
I've got to go on this massive journey where my life falls
apart entirely and I try and make a plan.
I can't. I drug myself into a kind of

(14:07):
kaleidoscopic stupor, but I comeup with a solution, which is to
kill myself and then kill everybody else.
And I've got to do it all by myself with no words.
And I don't know if I can do that.
And that was exciting in a way also, you know, worrisome and
the the kind of creative anxietyof, am I going to be the most
boring person that's ever been in my lives?
Will he just cut me out entirely?

(14:29):
And then I knew because we were given all the scripts where I
was headed, which was to this insane kind of roller coaster
ride in the last episode where IAI try and kill everyone.
Which has been building up bit by bit as everybody gets added
to my list of people who can be better off dying and facing the
ignominy of his fall from grace.And then not to plan it, because

(14:52):
you shouldn't be planning anything.
As an actor, I need to be sideswiped by something that
stopped me killing them. I couldn't understand, even
though that was my solution and my solution?
Disappear and then be in freefall and then realize I've
killed the one person who didn'tdeserve killing Lachlan and, and
think I've done that. And then somehow find this
Buddhist redemption where I, I, I surrendered to fate and find a

(15:15):
peace, a kind of resolve and a beauty almost in, in just being
a common member of humanity. And look at those drops of water
rejoining the ocean at the end and think I'm going to be all
right because I'm not special. And what a what a relief it will
be to be just ordinary and human.
And then look at those people I love knowing they're going to

(15:37):
face terrible challenges and think it's the best thing that
can happen to them and do all that without any words.
That's what I thought. I thought, holy shit.
And I looked at these other parts, which were great.
And the whole thing was very human and full of absolutely
compelling stories. And I thought, yeah, I know how
to do that. I know how to do that.
I know how to do that. Like those things I recognize,

(15:57):
you know, it's full of very, very human sized behavior.
And I had this Greek tragedy to play this kind of huge
Shakespearean arc and I, and I was kind of excitedly terrified.
That's the truth of it. I know I, I wasn't the only
person off of the pot. Someone else turned it down who
I know. And I and I haven't spoken to
him but I I wonder if he turned it down for the same reasons I

(16:19):
was scared. Yeah, it's an amazing how it is.
It's one it's kind of a one man show often because you are you
know, there's this silence and you have to read with with
nothing being said. You're you know, you're just
reacting to what's going on around you or by yourself and
you're watching this man kind ofbreakdown.
Like it starts kind of I think in the scene in the bed when
Parker Posey's character says that you're a good man.

(16:41):
And that's that's the moment when you see like, like things
start churning in his head and really clicking.
Like, am IA good man? Who am I?
Sure. It's so full of that irony,
though, like Mike. It's like Mike starts at 10 and
turns up, you know, through 1112and 13.
And you know, the irony of goingto that beautiful scene with the

(17:02):
monk who, by the way, I thought was a monk until the end of the
day, when it turns out he's a podcaster anyway.
When, when he's the only person I I've listened to, the only
person I've actually made a human connection, I'm really,
I'm hanging on his every syllable because I want to know
if it's OK to kill myself. Because he's a smart man, Jim,
and he knows what aggressive action is.
He knows it's not going to help the people he leaves behind, but

(17:22):
he just can't face it. It's cowardice, terrible
cowardice. And also a very, you know, a
monstrous thing to get to that place where you think the only
way out of this for me is killing myself so I can't face
everything else. And the monk kind of gives him
license by saying, you know, we start off life as a mortem.
You know, we're throw it up in the air drops, we rejoin it.
And he thinks I can rejoin it. I'll be, I'll be relieved of all

(17:44):
this. And and and only Mike would
write a scene where, you know, the bliss at the end of that is
me thinking, oh, I can't wait tokill myself, that that'll be OK.
And then and to for that, you know, the irony being that right
at the end, I see those drops ofwater in a very different way.
Yeah. No, everything that everyone
says at every point seems insaneto me because I know what's

(18:04):
coming. And I know that when we get on
that boat at the end, not my daughter isn't going to be able
to live in a monastery where we'll afford the flight.
We won't be able to afford a cell phone plan, which is why
Mike was fantastically collaborative in the first
drafts. I read in the phone calls it
wasn't clear that it wasn't justgoing to be a big fine.
And I said, should we not make him wiped out?

(18:24):
How do you feel about making it clear that they're going to
freeze all of his assets and take the house and the cars and
the trust funds away so that there's nothing, nothing to pay
for anything, for college or anything?
He went, yeah, that's great, let's do that.
So he rewrote the phone calls tomake it clear that the walls
closed in completely because at first I went, he could pay a
fine. People like that, they got trust

(18:45):
funds. Who knows how many hundreds of
millions he's got squirreled away.
Yeah, no, you're right. It starts there and then it
just, it ramps up and up and up.And and the the, I mean, they
say creativity flourishes withinparameters.
But one of the many challenges was he didn't want me to give it
away. He didn't want the other people
in my family to know that some terrible crisis just enough for

(19:08):
them to be suspicious. So I couldn't.
I mean, but when I first read that, I thought I'm going to get
to go to clown school here. You know, he's he's chugging
these pills. This is going to be hilarious.
Then he went, no, no, no, because I don't, I just want to
be slightly out of it, you know,just a bit, then think something
bit bit weird's going on for you.
I'm like, oh, OK, I guess that that's off the agenda there.

(19:31):
So it was, it was the whole thing was exciting and
interesting and I felt, so this is one of the things that
doesn't get talked about. So maybe as much as his
brilliant writing, Mike White isa remarkable director in that he
he's a very gentle hand, very gentle steering hand doesn't,
doesn't never tells anyone what to do.
Some people think directing is telling people what to do.
And in some cases it is when it's done badly.

(19:53):
But you know, regards the performance like a soap bubble,
ever so gently, lightly suggesting things, but with
utter brilliance to steer you towards something that you feel
like you own yourself. And I, I felt like I was in safe
hands very early on. Because he wants.
He wants choices in the edit because he's making he's telling
so many stories to interweave. He doesn't know whether Racine

(20:15):
needs to be slightly more grotesque or funny or more real
or faster or slower. So he asks you for things you
wouldn't normally do, which is to give him lots of choices.
Normally that's what you do as an actor.
But I felt like those, you know,those trust games are trying to
fall back and people catch you felt like this guy.
I absolutely delegate to him the, you know, the safety of not

(20:36):
making me look like an idiot. So I just I went for stuff.
Well, you, you start off in thiskind of painless like world,
this bubble where your whole family is isolated from
anything. And then you go into, like you
said, the the drugs where you'rea different type, kind of
painless trying to trying to kill the pain and you're.
Watching this man, what I'm trying to do, for me at least, I

(20:58):
mean, you must take them what you want for.
For me, what I was, every singlethought is the catastrophe,
every thought I carry through. What's going to be like when I
do this? What's going to be like in
prison? What's it going to be like when
I talk to these guys? How are we going to live in
every thought I come? This is a man who's been nothing
but solutions his whole life. He's rich and powerful and he,
he, everything has fallen in hisway.
Money and power and status will always solve any problem, and he

(21:21):
can't solve any of these problems.
So the drugs were an attempt to drown out of that noise, but
they didn't work. It's like he has a bad trip on
the lorazepam for most people. Take your anxiety away or help
you sleep. He's not sleeping.
His mind is firing at a billion miles an hour.
And instead of providing an ease, there is no, not one of
those thoughts can reach an end.So it's just they're coming

(21:41):
thick about what I was trying toconvey at least.
But inside his head, he is on a continual, you know,
hallucinogenic loop of every of catastrophes in a million
directions. That's what I was hoping.
I don't know what you got from him.
That's what I was getting at. Not as well put, but that's
that's a type of pain. I mean, it's like the internal
anguish of not having a way out,not being able to solve problems

(22:04):
with with some, especially for someone who has had lived a life
of privilege and enjoys things that most people would only
dream of. And suddenly you're looking,
wait a second. I'm going to go to the next
extreme. I'm going to have nothing.
And I have all these people surrounding me who their
biggest, you know, issue that day was.
Oh, it we we can't have our cellphones, they don't want to serve

(22:26):
our cell phones, etcetera. And suddenly that's that's going
to be the least of their concerns when everything gets
wiped out and this guy has to deal with all that and do it
internally. I mean, I imagine for myself,
because I knew where he's from, Durham, NC, and I'd looked at
pictures and video and, you know, and I'd imagine for myself
his life in Durham, NC as well. I filled a little flesh out of
myself. And I think there's a wing of

(22:46):
the hospital with the family name on it, the statues to his
relatives. He might make a run for governor
himself at some point. I think library at Duke with
their name on it. I mean, there's a there's,
there's the the total fall from grace everywhere, wherever he
live. What would he do?
You know, he'll go to prison, maybe for not that long.
What would he do when he came out?
What would he like? Victoria, his wife, who's

(23:07):
obsessed with status. He is at least has been a
working person. What is she going, you know,
Yeah. Just it, just the, the, the
internal life I was leading was so depressing and terrifying,
leading to suicide and murder. And it was all because, you
know, it was a lovely social experience being there in many
ways. You know, I'm, I fell in love
with my kids, you know, Patrick,Sam and Sarah Catherine and my

(23:29):
wife arrived after one of my real kids and making other
friends. But I had to, I had to be able
to, you know, acting isn't, it'spretend, but it's as little
pretend as you can make it. You have to trick your
imagination to being the thing, you know, you didn't put drops
on me. You cry, you're upset, you know,
and I had to find a way to transition from this

(23:49):
extraordinary social experience in Thailand to the very lowest a
human being can get, which was an interesting challenge.
There was a great moment when you can totally read your mind
as you're listening to Piper explain why she doesn't want to
be there. And there's your wife.
Give me a thumbs up and excited.You know we did it.

(24:11):
We don't have to deal with her. You know, going to Thailand and
and dealing and being having a Buddhist like it's like a big
win. And you are like, you're like,
Oh no, you're one of them. You're like.
No, yeah, it's funny you should mention that moment because it
really stuck in my mind because none of us has seen the last
episode. They sent us other episodes
because we were talking to the press, but nobody's seen the
last episode. You know, Mike and Dave and the

(24:33):
other two, I think no one else. They've been the producer.
And so I was in Los Angeles. We came.
There was a finale screening of the last episode in front of a
giant crowd. And, you know, we all knew we'd
all, you know, all the actors were like, which bits might have
been cut. That's what you're always
writing, like what's left in, you know, And it came to that
moment where Piper and God knows, I thought Sarah Catherine

(24:55):
was brilliant in the show. And she had waited 8 episodes
for this scene, which was that, you know, just kept her powder
dry, as it were for this big emotional scenes that she played
roughly the same person all the way through until suddenly she
has this realization. She did it beautifully,
brilliantly. And I remember the mood I was in
when I'm watching. I was taken back the mood I was
in. You know, I'm at a very, very

(25:17):
low point where I think I'm going to kill my wife and my
oldest son. But there was a fantasy sequence
that we shot that wasn't used where I did both those things,
which I, you know, imagining it.And but I think my daughter's
going to be OK because she's going to go and be a Buddhist
and she doesn't need money and luck can be OK.
And she says, you know what? I am spoiled.
And I like nice things. I'm just a rich girl and I was

(25:39):
crushed. My heart's broken because he's
like, he's very patriarchal alpha male.
His daughter's kind of special to him, his little jewel of, of
femininity and stuff. And so the, the knowledge that
he's going to have to kill her too, to and he thinks in his
trusted logic to prevent, to save her.
The pain was heartbreaking to mein that moment.
And I was watching. I remember the mood.

(26:00):
And as the camera panned to me, 500 people fell out of their
chair laughing. I was reminded that all that was
my personal tragedy. Mike's genius is that he made
that a funny moment for the people watching.
I'm like, I wanted to come on and go, you heartless bastards,
how could you? But that's, you know, what I'm
going through is not what the audience is going through.

(26:20):
So I remember that moment particularly.
Yeah. So how different is the Timothy
from when he arrives in Thailandwhen he leaves that day?
I think remarkably because Mike is such a realistic writer.
In fact, I remember him saying to Patrick, Patrick asking about
asking about how much has Saxon changed and Mike going changed

(26:41):
that much Like he's just, it's only a week of his life on
holiday. You know, it's like, no, it
didn't change. I would talk.
Timothy has had a complete Damascene conversion, having
been the guy who arrives and goes, I don't want any of this
bullshit, man. I just want to go to the gym.
I'm just going to work out. He's left and he is the literal,
the physical and spiritual embodiment of Buddhist

(27:03):
principles. He's come to a place in his life
through this crisis where he is accepting fate.
And I can't remember what the Latin title last episode is, but
it's something like surrenderingto fate.
And, and he looks at those dropsof water and he thinks I when
he's he's anticipating the blissand the relief of just being

(27:23):
part of the ocean. Common humanity no longer feel
like he has to be above or better than superior to anyone
else. That the pressure and
responsibility of keeping him tothat distance between him and
everybody else that he's embraced the full humility of
that not humiliation, but genuine humility of, of Buddhist
principles. And, and I remember reading it

(27:45):
thinking, Jesus, I'm going to doall that.
Like I'm going to do words. I have speech.
I remember asking Mike about thespeech he makes on the boat
going through. He's just made a speech with a
pina colada. He makes his speech, doesn't
really say much that much. And he went, yeah, it's a crap
speech. It isn't out of the words.
And I went, oh, thanks. OK, so I wanted to work on it,
to make it the speech, which somehow sums up.

(28:07):
And he goes, no, no, he can't say it.
He can't find the words. It's the water that does it for
him. And I went, OK, he went, you'll
have to do it with just your face.
And I went, oh, thanks. But nonetheless, how much has he
changed completely, utterly and completely and and which is a
just a remarkable piece of of writing.

(28:27):
And then I look over the people I love and I know that they are
going to face their own, each one of them, their own terrible,
you know, journeys. And I don't know how they'll
come out of it, but they will bebetter for it.
I think as Timothy, in that moment, I think we will all be
better for releasing, letting goof this gap we've worked so hard
to maintain between us that that's helped us look down on

(28:49):
the rest of humanity. That's what I, by the way, it's
up to the audience. You can think whatever you think
watching it. That's what I was feeling inside
my head, hoping. No, no, I think I, I think it's
great to to get that. People say, well, I didn't write
this, but I want to know as an actor who's bringing this person
to life, you don't just read thescript and read your lines.
You are, you know, you let this person become part of you and

(29:11):
then you have to bring them to life and you have to do that
with real human emotion and everything else in life
experiences. Well, for me, it's, I mean,
well, for me, for all actors, I think I might.
By the way, Mike's a brilliant actor.
I mean, sometimes you come out and act the same for you and you
go like, oh, yeah, shit, I'll just do that.
But that's much better than lastone for one of the things the
public maybe don't think about, and nor should they know it.

(29:32):
They don't even know how the sausage was made.
It ruins us sometimes. But acting is not about the
things you say and do in the script, about all the things
inside yourself that you're not saying and not doing.
It's the, it's the 99.9% of the thing that's not poking out, you
know, And for Timothy, that's it's almost like 100%.
There's almost no, none of him that's showing to the other

(29:52):
people. It's all the things you think of
saying, all the thoughts, all ofyour entire history that flashes
by you. It's everything that that
happens inside your, your head and everything that's programmed
into you. Those are things that have not
written in the script. And the better writers don't
feel they need to write that. They just indicate that the and
the rest of its son kind of almost implies itself to you
like a magic eye painting if they've done their job right.

(30:14):
So where do you see him in five years after this?
Well, you know, anything I imagine will be nowhere near as
creative as everything that Mikewill come up with, that's for
sure. I'm much more prosaic.
I think he's going to prison. But you know, there's a version
where he phones his friend Donald and gets a pardon, so.

(30:36):
Does he? This new personality, the
spiritual enlightenment will that will that land and stay
with him? I hope it does.
I think it's doubtful. That's too clean.
But, you know, I, I deliberatelyate and I don't drink anymore.
But, you know, I imagined that Tim was a guy who indulged

(30:57):
himself with red wine and too many desserts.
He was, he was, you know, he's afat cat, both literally and and
metaphorically. And I think he'll get healthy in
prison and maybe use his powers for good.
I think he's going to watch his family struggle a lot 5 years
time. But he's not going to work in
finance. He'll be banned from working in
finance again. We'll understand the financial
markets. I, I don't honestly, I don't

(31:22):
think people, leopards change their spots that much.
So I think he will for a while be able to hold on to this new
found humility and Buddhist practice almost.
And I think he'll be hard surrounded by the people who'd
be surrounded by an open prison.He's too smart.
He will manoeuvre to get himselfadvantage and he will, he might
even borrow money to work the market because he's he's been in

(31:42):
the markets, the financial markets the whole time.
I think he'd probably make moneyon crypto and AI by borrowing,
advising other people and make money and buy into AI.
I don't really think that. The truth is I've no idea.
I let him go at that point and anything I come up with is
nowhere near as good as what Mike will come up with.
And so I wouldn't. I wouldn't sully it with my
banal imagination. If you can come back on the

(32:03):
series again and be the just like other characters have done,
would you do it? Do you jump at the chance or are
you happy where he left off? I would act out Mike White's
lunch list in dinner theater. I mean, as an actor, you're a
secondary artist, you're an interpretive artist.
You might get a lot of creative input, but you can only work
with the material that you're given.
And there are very few people that create things that are both

(32:28):
as human but as dramatic and as actable as, as Mike and, you
know, heartless. And I'd go back to the set and
and work on the catering next year if it had me.
And talking about revisiting characters, one of your most
popular of course is is Malfoy. If you had to do a road trip
with one cross country, this character, Tim and and Lucius,
who would you choose? Oh my God, Tim would give you.

(32:49):
Tim is far more fun. He's got a much better life.
I I picked him after White Lotusbecause he's a much nicer guy.
But even before that, he'd give you a good investment advice,
that's for sure. Well, there's that.
Does Lucius have anything going for him?
Well we just might be able to wait for wand and save you all
the time and you wouldn't have to buy gas.

(33:09):
You just get that straight away.Well, that's certainly A+.
Let's close out with some TV topics, a few more and then get
you on your way. You grab your remote control and
a genie comes out and offers youATV based wish.
What TV show would you want one more season of?
It could be a prequel season, a season in the middle, or one tag
down to the end of its run. The one Sorkin's West Wing.

(33:30):
Well, sorry, the first one I want unquestionably is the OA.
I'd like to finish the OAI thinkit's a work of utter genius.
People haven't seen. They should go and watch the OAI
think Britt Marling and Zelba Manglish are unique voices
telling stories and we weren't allowed to finish that.
We we're trying as hard as we can, but I'd love another the
three seasons out of that. They they they had a five season

(33:51):
art completely planned. But if it was something I wasn't
in and something slightly less narcissistic, I would go for
some more, Sorkin written West Wing.
Oh, excellent. Yeah, Sorkin, what was his other
show, The news show that he did?Newsroom.
He did Studio 60 and like the man, can write.

(34:12):
Yeah, that's for sure. We could really use another
season of Newsroom right about now.
Sure, let's go with another one.Favorite theme song 1 you can't
skip? Oh, wow.
I I would leave The Sopranos theme song on.
I love singing to it. I liked it was like, there's
kind of something about the driving.
I mean, it was literally, but the driving beat.
I love that, Yeah. Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, I, I actually live around some of the landmarks he passes

(34:35):
by Pizza Land and the Paul Bunyan statue.
When I first moved here, I woulddrive around and check them out
as I played the theme song in mycar.
Right. I have it on my playlist, I have
that track on my playlist. That's how good it.
Is Yeah, it's tough to beat thatone.
What about ATV death that you would stop if you could?
I would stop. Oh, OK, I'm, I, I take myself
out of the creation because I'm always dying.
I I'm dying. I've died in so many things and

(34:57):
things I would still be in, you know, I'd still be in Star Trek
or whatever. ATV death.
Oh my God, I'm trying to think who died and things.
Oh, I loved LA law and there wasa fantastic moment when the kind
of patriarch of the entire thingjust stepped into elevator and
plummeted. And I think I kind of stopped
watching around there, not because he was my favorite

(35:17):
character necessarily, but I just.
I remember thinking, you can't do that.
I was slightly offended by the genius of the writing of it,
that because no one does that. I mean, years later, Game of
Thrones killed off all my main characters and stuff.
It was the first time I'd ever seen a main character die.
I'd like to know now, in retrospect, was that a contract
dispute? Was it a salary thing?
What happened? Unlikely to be a creative thing

(35:38):
in those days, but it upset me. Yeah.
How about favorite finale ever? Oh, easy cop rock Steve Bochco,
who had so many TV shows shows on.
They were. This is, by the way, this is
only good for people over 50. But there was a show on for
those people who are younger. He had so many hit shows on.

(35:58):
They just gave him a license. Yeah.
She didn't have to do a pilot. Everybody knows this has to be
pilot. But he didn't.
And he did a show like his hit shows, NYPD Blue.
But it was a cop show. But they had songs in it.
And they were great singers whenthey were great actors.
And the, the, the, the action was gritty and real.
And then they were just burst out and song.
And it was ridiculous. It was fabulous.

(36:19):
It was ridiculous and it clearlydidn't work.
And the audience was hasted and they got slashed by slammed by
reviewers. But because he had so many hit
shows on, they just let the series run.
And the finale episode, they'd written a song, the lyrics,
which was something they pulled back and every every character
who died came on. You could see it was a set.
They're all kind of high kicking.
The lyrics were something like, what the hell?
We tried to do a cop show with songs.

(36:40):
Didn't work. It was dumb.
But we're still here singing anddancing.
Bye, everybody. And it was just, it was a
fabulous moment where where the creators were speaking to the
audience going, well, you know, you can't win them all.
Right. It sounds familiar.
I I didn't see that finale, but someone just brought up an
another finale that kind. Of nobody saw it, I was me and
Steve Botsgar with his mum, that's who was watching it.

(37:01):
I remember it being it was that was a, a punch line.
It became a, you know, for for years.
It made me laugh. I was laughing through the
entire thing. But he was, he was brilliant.
He was Hill Street Blues, right?And that's what else he did.
How about the greatest moment ofTV history according to Jason
Isaacs? Oh my God, I should have prepped

(37:21):
for some of these things. I've no idea.
All right, well, let's say the word great in a kind of loose
term. Maybe one of the most the
cheekiest moment in history is for the people who made Dallas,
which was a massive show. The whole world was talking
about who shot Jr. was a huge talking point in the world over
when the really world wore to cooler conversations.

(37:42):
And then they got to a season somewhere and they looked at
each other and went, oh, this iscrap and no one's watching it
anymore. It was really good when we did
season 2. What are we going to do?
It's gone. Off they went.
I know, let's have one of the main guys who we miss now
because he's dead, just step outof the shower and it was all a
dream. And I can't I can only imagine
the other people in the room going, are you on drugs?
That's the most ridiculous idea I've ever heard.

(38:04):
Someone else who I guess had thecheck but went, fuck it, let's
do it. Let's just do it.
But you can't do that. You can't tell the audience it
was all. That's like a 5 year old essay.
What I did in my summer holidays.
It's just and they went, let's just do it and they did it.
Bobby Ewing stepped out of the shower.
And none of season 3 and 4, whatit was, had ever happened.
It just it was one of the most audacious moves that anyone's

(38:27):
ever pulled off on television. Dallas growing up was always
talked about for that and The Who shot Jr. and and was it That
was Patrick Duffy, right? Well, who saw genuine creative
stuff? Patch Adopia?
That's genuine creative. They they created a moment, but
someone stepping out of the shower going none of the last
year ever happened because it's crap and no one's watching and
we need this guy back. That's some big balls, I think.

(38:50):
Creative. How about the four TV shows that
make up your Mount Rushmore? Oh my God.
Oh, I don't know. I could do that.
I will. The West Wing is definitely one.
I might have mentioned them already.
I mean, there's it's Breaking Bad do it and it probably
doesn't. It's not timeless.
It was brilliant when I watched it.
I loved watching it. It might be some of the Ken

(39:13):
Burns documentaries. Am I allowed documentaries in
there? Sure.
Ken Burns, Sybil all of Ken Burns.
Can I have Ken Burns as a as a genre?
That'll be 1. Ken Burns Oh no, it's not fair.
Vietnam's great, the war's great.
All all of this stuff is fantastic.
No, no, you can use, yeah. There's a man called Adam

(39:33):
Curtis. I'm afraid American viewers
won't be able to access this stuff.
It's on iPlayer, which is the BBC app.
Unless you use AVPN. Don't tell anyone, but use AVPN.
Adam Curtis has access to all ofthe world, all of the BB CS
archive, and he makes these essays.
Essentially, they're polemics. They're what you know, how has
the world gone? Why?

(39:54):
Where is, what happened to capitalism?
What was, why did Russia come topower?
What's the history of terrorism?Whatever it is, he's a he's a
brain the size of a planet. He has access.
He has given unlimited access tomaterial to back up his his
visual essays. And they're completely
brilliant. And I and I strongly recommend
those. That's three, that's two

(40:14):
documentaries, one drama. There's got to be a comedy in
there. What makes me laugh forever?
Larry Saunders makes me laugh. It'll never stop making me
laugh. It was brilliant.
It's the first time I ever heardthe C word on television, which
now you hear everywhere. But I just went.
Me and all of America watching it when did he just did I did he
just and then he said it in the end again.
Can I say it on your can I say it in this infield, but you

(40:36):
don't like it you can beat me out right they Hank played by
Jeffrey Tambor so magnificently says it early on calls Larry
Saunders wife a cunt and it's just the whole of America went
did you did you just and then right at the end of the episode
he he's couldn't be more apologetic and it comes to Gary
Shandler goes I'm so sorry. I don't know what I said.

(40:56):
I thought it was a terrible thing and Gary Shandler goes
what the come thing it's fine don't worry and all that he just
said it again. I said it again what the hell it
blew my mind because in in Britain it's a word that can be
used as the fact it doesn't havequite the the power of the kind
of you know verbal neutron bomb it used to have in America and
when it was broadcast it was something else.

(41:16):
But it's also It's the most unsentimental, acerbic portrayal
of narcissism in show business that's ever been.
I think it's still it still lands pretty heavy here.
I don't you don't hear it that much.
It it does come up once in a while I think.
People have said it a lot more. Yeah, people say a lot more now

(41:37):
in, in TV and in stand up and, and all over the place.
But there was a, there was a period of time when it, it was
it, it was nuclear when you saidit.
And that's when they did it on television.
I think it was moonlighting thatsaid bitch for the first time on
prime time and that was that wason the news actually that they
said it and big controversial. There's only one thing I'm sure
about in this interview, which is as soon as I get off, I'll

(41:59):
think of four other television shows I wish I'd rather, but
there you go. That's that's.
That's how every conversation ends.
You go oh shit as you walk away.So how about a pre-existing
character that you would like tohave played?
Oh well. You I missed out on.
There's some I missed out on that went on to be not because
their success, but were so brilliantly done.
There was one that was, I can't say that was written for me and

(42:20):
I wasn't available and went on to be just one of the biggest TV
shows in the world and that that's will stick in my throat
forever, which obviously I'm notgoing to say because someone
else played it and all the way it may not have been a success
if I'd done it. This other person was so great
that it. Can you say it afterwards?
No. No, it's not.
It's not right to say those things, you know.
And I genuinely think it was a success because this person was

(42:40):
in it and, and, and they were the person who should have
played it. So a character that I would have
liked to have played. Oh God.
Well, I, I was in a series called Brotherhood, which I, I,
I loved, which was a, a gangsterbased on the Bulger brothers.
One of them was Whitey Bulger was a notorious gangster and the

(43:02):
other was a politician in, in Massachusetts.
And it was, you know, it won a Peabody award.
It's a pretty great show, fantastic writing and and
character based, not plot based,which was fabulous, but it was
it's impossible not to have compared to the to The Sopranos
and and not that I would have been any good at it and I'm

(43:23):
completely wrong for it, but I can't you can't help watch Tony
Soprano and think that's that isthe Hamlet of television.
You know, that is that's got everything.
I look wrong, I sound wrong and I built wrong and and he was so
perfect and brilliant. But that's a part that you know
that and maybe Walter White, maybe I could have pulled Walter
White off. I I keep thinking people who was

(43:45):
so magnificent, it's ludicrous to think of anybody else playing
those parts. Well, that's, that's the idea
here. And you know, it's, it's the
dream. World, I'm not going to say the
part now because it would be rude.
There is a there's a major TV series that had someone in it at
the centre who I thought was incredibly badly cast.
There's a sensational actor who I didn't believe for a second
and and that I will tell you when we get off the air if you

(44:07):
promise me you won't. Say OK, I will say some.
Just occasionally there's something I think it's bad to
cause. Those are the ones I genuinely
think I could have a stab at that when I watch something
great, I'm like everyone else. I'm a fan.
I think that's fantastic. And I couldn't even begin.
And if I can be really honest, Ilook at the other people in the
category of the awards thing that, you know, in, in the
emigre. I look at Walton and Sam
Rockwell and Trammell and, and Zach and John Turturro who, who

(44:30):
are from Severance, you know, and, and James who, who's in
paradise. And I can't quite believe that
my name is on the list with thembecause I, I, I've been watching
Severance again, having watched it with my youngest daughter
who's just watching it, thinkingthey're all doing incredible
work in it. And then I'm reminded they're
doing incredible work because these are incredible parts

(44:51):
directed sensationally. And they really should be awards
for, you know, the luckiest bastard in the best part.
I wonder if Walton will get lucky enough to they pull a
Dallas and they just bring him back out of the shower next, you
know, for the next white Lotus all.
Right. Walton's pretty busy, you know,
he's a fabulous and very popularity.
He's in three series at the sametime.
And I'm actually going to make afilm next with Peter Landersman.

(45:13):
And he said, oh, I'm, I'm makinga film with your castmate next.
So Peter's obviously got numbersof films lined up because I
think he's working with Walton. So we'll see.
Yeah, I, I don't. Know did you see his work in the
Shield? Yeah, no, I've seen Walton
favan. He's fabulous.
He's in a very my I'm very friend of an uncle John Aveny,
who made the three Christ's and Walton was brilliant in his
film. He said he's a fabulous and then
justified. He's he's a great actor.
Yeah. Oh yeah.

(45:34):
He's he's amazing. So let's close out with the last
one. If you had the magic door one
that allowed you to access and live in ATV world, popping in
and out, whatever you want. So your real life continues or
doesn't continue. It pauses and then you know,
whenever you go in life pauses. Whenever you come out, it
continues. You go when you come back, yes.
Yes, there you go. Oh my God, where would I?

(45:55):
Well, here's the thing. Nobody makes TV.
Nobody. Nobody buys a ticket to watch
the Village of the Happy People.So like there's nowhere, which
is a blissful existence you'd like to live in because nobody
was watching that world. In fact, I was in a wonderful
show called a show called Good Sam that was cancelled, which
was a lovely show. And Casey the showrunner's a
just a great writer and Sophia Bush was the lead and she's a

(46:18):
lovely person. I think it might have been
cancelled because it was it was basically about nice people
doing good things. So I don't know that there is
any world that's that is much better than this one.
But I think I might have to go into the world of The West Wing
because Jed Bartlett was president, and who wouldn't want
Jed Butler president? I like that answer.
Well, thank you so much for for being such a great guest.

(46:40):
Your, your work excellent this season.
And you know, going back over the years, but Mass, I thought
Mass just gutted me. Amazing work on that as well.
Usually writing, I mean not to deflect praise, because who
doesn't like a bit of praise? But the fact is, when I get
praise as an actor or awards nominations or any of that
stuff, it's always because there's been someone

(47:02):
phenomenally talented who's created a great story in human
beings that I I get to be part of.
And then you end up getting praise, which really is due to
someone else. But I'll take it because he's
not here. You know, people often know,
Genus often ask, what do you want people to take away from
this? What's the message?
And I go, there's no message. This is a great story that, you
know, if there was a message, we'd make a bumper sticker.
But with MASH, there is somehow a message illustrated through
drama, which is to carry hatred in your heart only poisons you

(47:26):
and that you learn to forgive because you're only weighing
yourself down with that level ofresentment and and toxicity.
And I so thoroughly believe in that.
And it's it's illustrated so beautifully, brilliantly by by
the story. Oh, I like that.
Let's close on that. So thank you so much for your
time and I look forward to seeing what you do next.
Thanks very much. Me too.
Lovely story to you. Thanks so much to Jason for

(47:48):
being my guest today. Keep tuning into TV topics and
be sure to subscribe on Spotify or Apple Podcast or wherever you
find your podcast. And if you really enjoy the
show, please give it a five starrating.
It really helps. You can also follow TV topics on
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Thanks for listening and stay tuned for more TV topics.

(48:10):
TV Topics is produced by StephenBrzekowski.
ZAP.