Ep 14: Carla Gugino talks about working with Mike Flanagan, dives into 'The Fall of the House of Usher', dissects playing all 8 Vernas, and discusses some TV Topics.
#MikeFlanagan #TheFlanaverse #Flanaverse #SpinCity #Jet
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Hey, where's the remote? It's time for TV Topics, where
those who love television discuss the series and
performances that should be on your radar.
Welcome back to TV TOPICS. I'm your host Steven
Persikowski. Hanging out today on the TV
TOPICS couch is an actress who Iwas first introduced to is
Ashley on Michael J Fox's sitcomSpin City.
(00:25):
She also brought us a Silk Spectre from the pages of the
graphic novel to the big screen in Watchmen.
She was everybody's favorite spymom in Spy Kids, and she's
haunted viewers in her work in several Mike Flanagan projects,
including The Fall of the House of Usher.
Of course, I'm talking about thegreat Carla Gugino.
(00:46):
Hello, I am Carla Gugino and today I am hanging out with
Steven Prusikowski on TV Topics.Welcome to TV Topics, Carla.
So I will just get things moving.
We'll talk about your work in the Fall of the House of Usher
and just a few, but first let's talk some TV topics.
Remember, there's no pressure and there's no right or wrong
answers. It's just a bit of fun.
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So looking back over the years, what has been your relationship
with TV? Are you ATV junkie watches
everything? Are you very selective?
Do you have your go to shows? You know, it's interesting
because as a kid I was ATV junkie for sure.
I mean, I traveled, I, I should say that I moved around a lot as
a kid and in certain places thatI lived, we didn't have a TV.
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I, I lived at, you know, teepee at one point and, and, and all
sorts of crazy things, but I, I was, I for me, I dream of genie,
which and bewitched and and thenultimately love boat, fantasy
island. These were all shows that I was
(01:49):
obsessed with. Some were, you know, some were
from before, but I still watch them and some were my time.
So I watched a lot of TV in my younger life.
And then it's interesting because I think with streaming
that shifted for me, which is that I, and, and then I'm, you
know, I'm sort of more of AI really love going to the movie
(02:12):
theater. When I was five, my mom took me
to jaws probably too early, especially because I was born in
Florida. And, and so I, that was a, a, a
traumatizing and yet very informative experience for me
about this sort of immersion andwhat a, a cinema can do.
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And so then I became sort of more obsessed with movies and
going to the movies. And of course I watched friends.
I mean, there were certain showsthat, you know, were sort of
unavoidable in the best way. But now I would say that I watch
so much less television than many people, mostly because, and
I, you know, it's funny to say it being in the business, but I
get completely overwhelmed by how many things there are.
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And, and so I end up watching something just if enough people
have said, hey, you've got to see this or if there's a friend
in it or a friend has made it or, you know, something like
that. So so in that way I feel always
like I'm sort of behind the 8 ball in terms of what's going on
in TV. Yeah, and someone who has to
watch like TV, there's, there's just so much.
(03:19):
It's impossible. No, I think that I think also
like the lack, it's a lack of curation, you know, I, I do
really believe that, you know, and, and, and, and the fact that
if when things used to sort of be watched weekly more, there
would be a conversation that went on for that whole week
where you were working, where you were going to buy your
groceries, where you're, where everyone was sharing this sort
of same experience. And I think now with binging
(03:41):
also, I was just talking to a couple of friends about this
because there's a the, the, the fact that if you've been
something but someone else hasn't yet, then you can't
really talk about it because you've seen it all.
But they haven't. And there was this wonderful
sort of moment where everyone was experiencing the same thing
at the same time. And additionally, there were
things that were more, Oh, I like, you know, the HBO really
(04:03):
did mean something specific at one point.
And, and you know, every, there were places that just had sort
of their personalities. And I feel like that's gone away
a little bit. So you might find an amazing
show that's on Apple or Peacock or Hulu, but then you forget
even which one you watched it on.
My wife was just asking me aboutthis show, your show, and it's
like what? What's it on?
(04:24):
Like, what channels it on? Like it's not a little channel.
Those days are kind of over. But you know, it's like you to
just to give somebody that direction, you know, the road
map to it and they go, oh, I don't have that one.
Yeah, I know it's interesting. And obviously Usher is on
Netflix and and then Girls on the bus, which is another show
that is just out right now that I that's on Max, which I still,
(04:45):
I still just always want to be like HBO Max.
Do do we have to take the HBO out?
But I did a show, you know, a, acouple of years ago that I, I
love leopard skin that SebastianGutierrez and I made together
that was on Peacock. And it was in a moment on
Peacock where just, it got wonderful reviews and stuff, but
then people didn't, couldn't find it.
And you know, and then many people were like, I don't have
(05:06):
Peacock. So it it is that sort of anyway
we're in a very interesting moment in time that I think is
actually, I think we always think that we are in the most
interesting or unusual or challenging moment, but I think
we are actually in a uniquely challenging moment for
entertainment. I agree.
I think we're in a uniquely challenging moment for a lot of
(05:28):
things, which I'll kind of get into a little bit later on.
So is there one TV character that you connected with most
could be, you know, as as a child or even as an adult,
someone you know, character thatjust.
You know, well, I think I would go from like, let's go, let's go
extremes. I think, you know, there was a
random kids show. Nice, nice, nice cup that was
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called ices. She was this really cool woman
who, you know, flew around in a see through plane and, and there
and there was Bionic woman like all of those sort of heroic
Charlie's angels. I was obsessed with Jacqueline
Smith. I, I sort of felt like as a
young girl, I, I was like, I, I look kind of like her, you know,
And I remember years ago when I was doing Troop Beverly Hills,
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so I must have been 16. I got to meet Jacqueline Smith
and I came up to her and I said,I just, you're so beautiful.
I couldn't, nothing could come out.
I didn't know what to say. And she just looked, I remember
with this most lovely look and said, you're so beautiful too.
And I remember at that moment just, you know, it was a really
impactful moment for me because I really had idolized her.
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So I think Charlie's Angels actually was very impactful of
me. And then more recently, you
know, I would say things like, it's not that it's a character
that I necessarily want to emulate, but I, I characters
like, you know, the character inFleabag, for example, I think is
an extraordinary character because that character just
breaks all sorts of boundaries and rules and, and, and, and is
a woman that has all of these contradictions.
(07:02):
And, you know, you're sort of not sure that you'd want to be
friends with her, but you're also sort of compelled by her.
And, you know, I, I think what, what, what Phoebe Weller Bridge
did. And that is just just really
impressive. So I think that was a female
character that really struck me of late.
And I can of course name more, but but that, that's definitely
one of them that I just remembergoing, oh, I don't think I've
ever seen anyone. That's a good choice.
(07:22):
Yeah. Yeah.
She's, I mean, in, in, in the best ways, complex.
And I love that we have more complex characters out there
now. It's not just this one stroke.
And that's, you know, how they're painted.
And then that's all you get. And they don't evolve, you know
that. I don't remember the character's
name, but yes, her work in Fleabag was just tremendous.
Yeah. No, we have because I think that
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the sort of the, the nature of heroes and villains ends up
being fine for, you know, certain kind of movie, a a
superhero movie or, you know, you know, it's like that.
But but I think that the nuance,I remember I was working on a
show many years ago and it was anetwork show and, and I was the
the lead character in it. And I had sort of been convinced
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that this was not going to be a procedural show and that it was
going to be very character driven.
And the character was very complex.
And, and I was working with a lot of people I really respect.
But ultimately, I think in my naivete, I didn't really quite
understand that the network we were making it for had a very,
you know, strong sort of brand and that that brand was this,
this. And they were very successful
(08:26):
with it. This kind of where the hero, the
lead of the show is is sort of has to be one thing.
And so there was a moment where I was convinced.
I was like, I keep trying to just infuse.
Interesting, contradictory, likehumans, you know, sort of
elements into this character. And I feel like it keeps getting
taken out of the edit. It was a circumstance where I
was seeing first cuts of things.And I, I asked one of the
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writers, I said, can we just sitdown and talk because I need to
talk to you about something. And I, I said, I'm sure this is
me being paranoid, but I feel like all of these things that
I'm trying are being cut out. And, and they looked at me very
matter of fact. And they said, Oh yeah, hero
protection. And I said, I, I literally don't
know what you're talking about. You have to like, that's a
foreign language. And basically they said, yeah,
we can't have any Gray in your character.
(09:11):
We, we, we don't want any momentwhere they question where she
might be coming from. And I said, you mean like a
human, you know, like an actual human being.
Even we ourselves don't even know where we're coming from in
many of our motivations. You know, we're dealing with
past traumas and all sorts of other things too.
So anyway, it was a really edifying moment for me and, and
one that was really informative in terms of what interests me as
(09:33):
well, because I, I just realizedin that particular environment
that I wasn't going to be, they could just get an actress who
could do the job well and was proficient and, and
professional. But in terms of trying to look
for some sort of inspiration or something unexpected in a human
that wasn't their interest. And it is mine.
(09:54):
So it was an it was a very, I learned.
The the best, the best characters are have Shades of
Grey, you know, and and how can a person watching this relate
when they got all right? They they're flawless.
Everything is just they're the good guy.
Yeah. Or even the bad guy.
Yeah, yeah. So what about shows that make
you laugh? Do you have one with like a a
stand out? Oh boy, what would be a show
(10:20):
that my stand out, You know, I, I don't know that I can even
come up with it. I mean, Saturday Night Live
really makes me laugh. It still makes me laugh.
So I guess that's a show that makes me laugh.
I find, I find there, I find, you know, I think it's
incredible that it is sustained for as many years as it has and
(10:41):
continues to have relevant skitsthat really, I think are just
more, you know, insightful and generally sort of shining a
light on a sort of a larger thing to look at, but also
really make me laugh. And I always find comedy to be
such a musical. There's such musical precision
(11:02):
in it. And the fact that those shows
are put together so quickly and still some of those skits are
just on point is really impressive to me.
Yeah. And so like going on close to 50
years, right? Yeah, I think so.
We're right there. It's it's amazing.
Bananas, yeah. Like, I can time my life to
certain skits, you know, when Eddie Murphy was on, when Will
(11:25):
Ferrell was on. I'm like, OK, I know where I
was. I know it's really crazy.
I was actually going through some old for research purposes.
I was like going through some old, you know, And I thought I
was like, Oh my gosh. Right.
They started on Saturday live. I mean, so many of the greatest
comedians of our time, obviously, but.
But yeah. And some of them behind the
scenes writing, too, which, you know, you don't know until
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you're later. You find out I'm like, my God,
my cash was everybody was there like an assembly line that they
had to put the best of the best in comedy through through that
one room 30 Rock. OK.
Also on the opposite end of the spectrum, are you a crier?
And if so, what's the last show that made you cry?
I'm definitely a crier, especially on a plane.
(12:08):
Especially on a plane. And what is the last show though
that actually made me cry? Or or memorable cry that you
had. Doesn't have to be the last one.
Yeah. Well, no, I, I was going to say
that, that, that I, I knew, unfortunately this is going to
not be ATV show though, so it's not going to be exactly what you
(12:30):
want. But I just remember I was
watching the wedding planner on the on the plane and I was
literally tears were streaming down my face and I thought, I
don't think I'd be having this experience on the ground, but
there's something about this altitude that is making me find
this extremely touching. But I have to think about, you
know, I, I'm actually, I'm, it's, it's kind of a cool
(12:51):
question because. And I know that you, you I'm not
the only one you've asked this, but it's, it's kind of an
interesting question because I'mtrying to think about, you know,
I just, I, I started watching that show one day recently.
Yeah, I'm halfway in and, but I found it really moving.
I don't know that I actually cried, but I, I did find it
touching on some things that I find really beautiful and
(13:13):
profound and universal. But I was just thinking, yeah,
it's interesting that that I I think in a way maybe I I cry
more often in a in a darkened movie theater.
And maybe there there is part ofthat of just sort of being lost
in another world. And I'm going to now think about
you when I cry the next time in ATV show, because I don't think
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that's happened very much for me.
How about you? Can you think of the last time?
The less well, Shogun, if you'vewatched that.
Yeah. No, I haven't seen it yet
because it's great. It's amazing.
It is amazing television. Amazing.
I, I, I've heard only amazing things about it and I will
actually I'm just, we just started watching the Park Chen
Wilk show with Robert Downey Junior.
(13:56):
The sympathizer. Yeah, yeah, and it's fascinating
and obviously cinematically amazing because of, you know,
Park Chen book, but but a great Shogun that was that that
literally is on is is on my list.
So excellent. Yeah, it's a must watch it.
It takes you back to the days ofwhen there were the big Event E
series. Yeah, not just the the scale of
(14:17):
it now, the storytelling I thinkis it's much better than it was
back then, but it still has something about it that just has
this epic yeah feel to it, whichyou don't get so often anymore.
No, you know, the last show thatthe, the show that I am obsessed
with and I feel that way about is Babylon Berlin.
I don't know if you've ever watched it, but it's it's Tom
Tikvur who did Run Lola Run and he's a a wonderful German
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director and he and two partners, you know, ran that
show. And it's it's on Netflix,
Netflix Germany. And it's the biggest show that
has been made and I think in in Germany ever.
And it's also the most successful show, but it's the
Weimer Republic just before Hitler comes in and it's Berlin
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and it's amazing and the acting across the board is exquisite,
but it's also huge production value.
And, and I felt the same way, which is like, oh gosh, we don't
do that anymore. And, and I'm sure there's CGI
and stuff, but you don't actually.
It feels like it's all real people there and they're these
huge crowds. Which I think it really helps it
land better. I think when they, when you get
(15:20):
too obsessed with that CGI, I'm like, you know what, you could
have used a puppet or a lightingeffect or some good editing and
I think it would would, you know, feel more real and land
better with people. Yeah, I, I used to have the
poster. I'm like, I I still have it
somewhere of from run, little run.
I love that film. So I'll have to go watch it.
Well, you have to watch it and just the reminder to watch it
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with the subtitles, but and not the dubbing because I think it's
so because the, the dialogue is beautiful as well.
And, and yeah. And Bryan Ferry of Roxy Music
did the first season of music and that's amazing.
And Johnny Climax, who's the composer, in fact, who's now
composed a couple of shows that I've been a part of, Jet and
Leopard Skin. He does the Wachowski's films
(16:03):
too. I, I, I, we were, I was just so
obsessed with him that we ended up tracking him down.
He's an amazing composer. So yeah.
I will have to check that out for sure.
Well, let's go into some of yourwork now and and I first started
watching it when you're on spin city with Michael J Fox.
And decades later, I still have been, you know, tracking down
(16:25):
your work and and trying to watch it all.
But it's you make a lot of content, you know, you TV shows,
movies, everything. So but I'm I'm doing my best.
Well, thank you. That means a lot to me.
So thank you. Thank you.
I remember watching Spin City and when you left after the
first season I was like, oh, why's she gone?
That was such a strange Gary David Goldberg, who was amazing,
(16:47):
who created that. And my experience with Michael
and everybody on it. I mean, still my, you know, my,
my best friend of many, many years is Connie Britton.
And we met on that when we were both so young and living in New
York City filming that it was anextraordinary time.
But you know what, what Gary, what we realized was I was the,
you know, I was Michael worked in the mayor's office, His
(17:10):
character and my character was areporter.
And and I remember when when I was, you know, up for the show
and then ultimately they wanted me to do the show.
I said, I just don't want to be the girlfriend stuck in the
apartment. Like as long as there can be,
she can have her own life and and there can be these
storylines that are, you know, interesting.
They said no, no, of course, andthen realized that ultimately
(17:30):
reporters are not allowed into the mayor's office, which was
actually a main set, obviously. And so it ended up just becoming
apparent by the end of that first season that there that
that Michael's character needed to have other girlfriends,
etcetera, and that my character was stuck in this world that I
had really not wanted her to be stuck in.
So it was a very super amicable and mutual decision.
(17:55):
But yeah, but it was A and, and,and also at that time, I ended
up going straight to do Snake Eyes, which is a movie with Nick
Cage and Brian De Palma. And so that was also kind of a
meant to be opportunity that I was then able to do that.
And also a film called Judas Kiss with Emma Thompson and Alan
Rickman, Simon Baker, bunch of great people too.
So it, it was, it was sort of meant to be, but it was a short
(18:18):
lived but really impactful experience.
It's still a brave move. You know you're on a series with
Michael J Fox. It's on ABCI.
Think the ratings were very good.
It lasted quite a long time. Being willing to walk away.
Not everyone would do that, so good for you.
No, no. And it was, you know, but it was
also sort of that weird thing oflike, I think had it been solely
(18:39):
my decision, that would have been maybe even an additional
amount of pressure. But I think because it was so
clear that for the show, there was like a best way to go.
And, and so I think they were also just happy that I sort of
saw it and agreed, you know? Fast forward about 30 years, I
think, or close to that, and we're at the Fall of the House
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of Usher, which I must say, the series is totally lemon.
Try to squeeze that in there. And before I get into that
though, I'm still wanted to start a little bit further back
this amazing acting career. Where did it all start?
Yeah, I, you know, I, I, my parents split up when I was very
(19:21):
young, but they were remained very friendly with each other
and that sort of wasn't a huge deal other than that I ended up
moving. So I, I, I was born in Florida.
I moved with my mom to California.
We did live in, in Big Sur in very, we've lived in beautiful
homes also. But we also did, there was a
point where I had a a kidney operation that was quite
(19:42):
serious. And my mom brought me to this
live with these gold miners in, in Northern California.
They were in a bus They had, they were all sort of ex Xerox
executives who had gone to like go off the grid and look for
gold. And she would this, you know,
this is in the 70s. And she we ended up erecting
this teepee And I lived there for a number of months and then
eventually went and lived with my dad and my stepmother in
(20:05):
Sarasota, where I went to private school and then traveled
to Europe in the summer. So it was like a very different
kinds of lives and and and was ajust a gypsy by nature for for.
I went then back to California and moved up and down the coast
with my mom. And then I really came to Los
Angeles 1 summer when I was about 14 and, and my aunt, Carol
(20:29):
Merrill, who had been, she was on a show called Let's Make a
Deal with Monty Hall. She was sort of the original
Vanna White. And she turned me on to an
acting class in in Los Angeles. And I took it that summer.
It was a man named Jean Bewa, who's no longer with us, who
taught a cold reading class. And I was a very, I think
(20:50):
probably because of so much movement in so many different
environments. I was both able to be a gypsy,
which I think was really helpfulin this profession because
you're always sort of up and offto a new city to make it, to
call it your home while you're creating a character.
But also it made me very, I was a very good student.
Like I, I, I definitely was a sort of serious kid.
(21:11):
And I think it was because I hadthe one thing I had in each
place was a school. So that became very important to
me. And, and so I think maybe
because of all the sort of malleability of my childhood, I
was like very type A. And so when I did my first scene
in that acting class, I rememberthinking, oh, wow, I get this is
(21:33):
you're supposed to let go of controlled, but in, of control,
but in a controlled environment.So the idea that I can sort of
jump off this Cliff creatively, but that's what my job is.
This is amazing. So it allowed me to access parts
of myself that I think I was tooscared to in life.
And I got a agent and a manager from that experience.
(21:54):
And, and ultimately was, you know, sort of being cast in in
guest starring roles on TV showsby the time I was 15.
And then I got emancipated at 16so that adults didn't have to
come to set and be with me all day and I could just go and work
and. And yeah, that was sort of how
it all started. Incredible.
You know, you wonder if one whatif 11 path going back to to run
(22:18):
little run if one Ave. or turn was changed, where would it
where would it have all LED? Would it have led to this or
not? I know, right?
I I know It's no, it's, it's a or or and, and and also, as you
know, like we, we can never tellsort of what path we're even
really on in our lives until we look back.
And then sometimes you go, oh, that was the path.
I wouldn't have, you know, I didn't know it when I was on it,
(22:40):
which is interesting. You have this great partnership
with Mike Flanagan, and at this point I'm wondering, can you
possibly say no to him? Well, I wouldn't ever want to
say no to him, but the beautifulthing about Mike Flanagan in
that regard is that he's always,there was one instance where I
(23:04):
just literally couldn't do what he was asking me to do because I
had another obligation, work obligation.
And, and you know, he's always so incredibly generous that way.
And I and, and, and I guess thatmakes you even more not ever
want to say no, but, but no, I, I, I, you know, he has really
written me, you know, some of the most extraordinary roles
(23:26):
that I've ever gotten to play. And, and it's, it's funny
because, you know, going from Gerald's Game and then, and then
the Haunting of Hill House to play Olivia.
And that was an extraordinary experience.
And, and then Bly Manor was justthis fun sort of experiment
because I, I only was able to work a couple of days on that
(23:48):
because of other scheduling things that I had.
And so we sort of, he was like, actually, you know, she was
written much older than you, butwe could actually, you know,
Dawn, a Gray wig, and you could actually be the older version's
character. And then that actually morphed
into it being sort of the the narrator of the whole show,
which wasn't the intention initially.
(24:09):
And then with Verna, you know, Idon't know that I'll ever get
the opportunity again to be asked to play eight different
versions of a non human character, but make each of
those versions deeply human and have one of those versions be an
ape. You know, I mean, I, I just, I,
(24:32):
I feel so, so immensely grateful.
And, and I also have such a fun time collaborating with him.
So that's the, that's the boon. You know, I think so often you,
you know, have experiences that are really tricky on set and the
work might still be good and theshow might still be good, but
it's a whole another, you know, set of issues or where, you
(24:55):
know, you have amazing times andthen the the product isn't as
good, you know, So this is so gratifying because I love the
collaborative experience. And, you know, and he's also
such a keen filmmaker. And so he, he, you know, and I
think also because he writes, directs and edits, he has such a
(25:15):
trajectory of, of what he wants to do that that, that the fact
that he is so clear allows for collaboration.
What I loved about it was I didn't know what your role was
going to be. So after the first episode, I'm
like, where's Carla? You're on the, you know, you're
on the thumbnail and like, you know, you, you had like just at
(25:36):
the very end, right? You had like a very big part.
And then we meet you again and then we meet you again and
again. And then, you know, you're a
chimp and you're a security guard and I, I'm like, and even
the second episode, you know, I was like, are you just gonna
kind of be this like character that weaves in and out and
doesn't really have that much screen time?
(25:58):
So I was gonna as a fan, not bummed out, but I was like, I, I
hope, I hope there's more. And then, you know, it blows up.
So it's really wonderful though to not know what to expect and
then just like eat it all up as it as it happens.
That's really cool to hear. You know, it was interesting
because funnily enough, Olivia was a little bit like that in in
(26:19):
the Haunting of Hell House because there had to be so much
mystery like in regards to was she alive, was she dead?
All all these things that she also, I, I believe Olivia's
episode was like episode 9 out of 10, you know, the one that
sort of centered around her. But with Verna, it was so
interesting because it was interesting to see people's
reactions before they had seen the whole thing sort of in real
(26:40):
time as it was all of a sudden on and people were like, is she
a demon? Is she the you know, is she the
and and it was it was particularly gratifying to to
get to see it unfold as people start to understand in real time
what's going on, because contextually, we don't even
understand all of it obviously till quite towards the end.
(27:01):
It's also been particularly gratifying that, you know, that
this attention, even in terms ofawards conversations or critical
response. I feel like Mike Flanagan's
project, you know, he's he he's all critics are really
appreciative of what he does. And, and as as I think it's very
(27:22):
apartment 'cause he's so good atit and he's always interested in
delving into sort of the more complex version of, of anything
he attacks. And so, you know, this genre is
obviously something that he loves, but but that that I feel
like there's been this sort of attention coming to this role of
Verna and, and the show in general in a genre that, you
(27:44):
know, is, is generally ignored by awards, etcetera.
And I think we've, you know, we've made progress.
I mean, you know, and obviously I, I think any great actor knows
that this genre affords just theability to explore the most deep
(28:07):
and rich emotions. You know, you're distracting an
audience with, with sort of, youknow, you need to make sure that
the, the the thriller slash coreaspects work, but then you can
explore anything. And you know, and obviously
we've seen it with Kathy Bates in misery or Anthony Hopkins in
Silence of the lambs or Jack Nicholson in the shining or, you
know, we some of our greatest performances are, are in this
(28:27):
genre. And yet still I think that, you
know, it's just, it's just exciting to see and to feel
first hand that that that sort of there is a shift in that way
and, and that's exciting. Well, you kind of answered my
next question, but not exactly, so I'm going to ask it.
Are you a fan of horror or are you just really good at it?
(28:48):
I, I am a fan of our shadow sides as humans in terms of
being an actress. I, I love to explore, you know,
some characters I learned from and want to be more like and
some characters I think, oh, thank God, I'm not, you know,
that that that's not my life where that's not the way I look
at the world. But I find really digging into
(29:11):
the depths to be really exciting.
And, and that's sort of what I've chosen in terms of my
theater work, in the terms of the plays I've done as well.
But no, I was never a horror fanper SE.
I've always been a fan of thingsdone really well.
For sure. The Shining is one of my
(29:31):
favorite movies of all time and always has been.
But so is all that jazz and, youknow, and, and, and so is
Silkwood. So, you know, I, I think that
for me, it's, it's when I see somebody doing something really
well, if I have the opportunity to be a part of it, I want to
be. And it's also how I end up
(29:52):
appreciating things that I may not have been that exposed to.
Or, you know, when I did Watchmen or Sin City, you know,
I wasn't a particularly graphic novel person.
And then I found myself reading graphic novels and familiarizing
myself with those particular graphic novelists.
And, you know, and then I had a whole new appreciation for it.
And I do feel that way about horror.
(30:13):
I see it very differently havingnow done, you know, several
projects in that genre. Yeah, Mike's writing is so
incredible. I hate to go with the elevated
horror tag, but really it is. Yeah.
I want to go back and rewatch it.
I want to go back and read. Watching the series really made
me want to go back and read somePO and see how my take on the
(30:37):
series changes. I wonder what I would extract
from the series after reading because it's it seems like
there's just so much you can unravel there.
And I I know I'm just touching the the surface.
Without question. And I think he, you know, he is
insanely knowledgeable in terms of post.
So, so there are all these wonderful little Easter eggs in
there. But I, I know what you mean.
I mean, unfortunately the word elevated, I think has just been,
(30:59):
you know, overused of late. That being said, I, I, I think
one way of putting it is that hehas an incredibly humanistic
take in the genre. And I think that and, and, and
that is key. And I, and I think in a strange
way, he might have maybe even gravitated towards me as an
artist, because that's not the genre that I'm necessarily
(31:20):
associated with. Funnily enough, now it is, but
it wasn't, you know, And, and I think that the, the thing that
I, when I read his work, I know that it, it's going to function
so well in terms of the genre. That's not my job.
My job is actually to dig deep and find the nuances of, of
these human beings. And he is always, he's, you
(31:46):
know, I think historically and maybe maybe it also comes with
being older, that I either demand it more or that I'm not
beholden to playing the ingenue or the person who people are
projecting on a certain kind of thing that happens much more as
a young woman. But there was a long period of
my career where I just felt like, can I just be as complex
(32:06):
as I am as a human at least? Like, why are we having to make
this woman, you know, sort of like, try to like box her in
And, and it's because, you know,we're scared for people not to
like her or, you know, whatever these things are.
And I think when I was in ingenue, I looked like it, but I
didn't sound like it or feel like it.
(32:28):
My voice was always lower. And I I just never felt like
that inside. So what was, is so wonderful
about him as a filmmaker is thathe, you know, he's never asking
you to be smaller. He's always welcoming you to dig
deeper or make something more complex.
And, and that that's such a gift.
You know, you can make so many more discoveries.
(32:49):
And, and in so many of those discoveries is what audience
members or critics have really pointed out things where we
really dug deeper to something that wasn't even initially there
perhaps and, and, and, and foundsomething that resonated.
So, so I think you're, I think you're right in that way that it
is actually elevated it, it is someone whose desires are to dig
(33:14):
deep. I, I are you a foodie?
Because it seems like with when I now you look at your career
and the genres and the characters you've taken on that
you're a good sampler and you, you explore and you, and you
don't just like go back to what you're comfortable with.
Like, OK, I did that. Now I want to try this or I like
that. Now how do I elevate?
That's the next level. And, and it's, it's really
(33:35):
amazing to to listen and and hear like, like I even said
with, with spin city to say no, that was great time to move on
and and look at your next opportunity.
By the way, I, I am, I am obsessed with food.
It's, I think I just take it as it's probably my Italian
heritage, but I do feel that there's nothing more exciting
(33:59):
than sitting with people that you love and breaking bread and,
and talking, you know, and, and,and, and I feel like the best
advice for, you know, kids are raised at a dinner table.
I feel like we find ourselves in, in, you know, mirrors of our
friends and, and family at, at meals.
(34:20):
And so, so I am. And it's funny that you say that
about the sampling because you just described exactly the
truth, which is that I, and maybe, you know, as you said it
when you said it, that the way that you just said it, it made
me think, huh, maybe that did also come from being uprooted
several times in my childhood and being able to readapt
(34:41):
quickly and also maybe to get a little bored of, of doing the
same thing over and over, you know, and also that I was
exposed to, to, you know, I remember when I was seven, I
tried escargot and, you know, inFrance and, and, and, and things
like that, you know what I mean?Where you're like, most kids
would just be like, no way. But I do think when we're
(35:03):
exposed to, to new things, usually it's a pretty good, you
know, usually, you know, occasionally you're like, I
don't need to ever do that again.
But mostly, you're happy that you broaden your horizons.
I, I love that. I, I mean, that's one of, that's
one of the things I always try to put, you know, plant in my
daughter's heads and, and just say, you know, always try and do
something new. I, I know you like this sport,
(35:24):
but you know, what? If, why don't you try this out
instead? If you're, if you're willing to,
why don't you try this? And, and they both latched onto
it. And the really funny coincidence
is my daughter, we went to, to Paris and we sat down and I
ordered escargot. And she said, what's that?
I said, it's escargot. She goes, that's snails, right?
And I said, yeah. And she goes, all right, I'll
have one. I'm like, what?
(35:45):
I thought you were, you know herknowing that.
And she? Chewed and chewed and chewed and
chewed and, you know, probably about a minute and a half later,
it's like I can't swallow this. It's like the texture was bad.
But she, you know, she ate a snail goingly.
She. Went for it.
Yeah, and she continues all the time.
Anytime I'm eating something andshe's 16 now and she's like,
(36:05):
what? What's that?
I'll try it. And I'm like, fantastic.
I mean, I think curiosity is ourmost precious quality and to
remain curious and to to instillin our children curiosity.
And funnily enough, funny with Verna, it was actually a key
thing because the way in which it's structured and the way in
(36:27):
which it was written is that we see her, you know, be very
instrumental in the end of several people's lives in a row,
right. And, and, and that she has this
sort of potentially omniscient Raven on a on a perch watching
things. She's not human.
She's the sort of hand of fate or the, you know, the hand of
(36:49):
karma, some sort of, but I had said to Mike early on, you know,
if, if she knows everything and if it's sort of a feta complete,
if she, if she kind of has the answers and she knows how
everyone's going to behave because she's lived for
centuries. We have no room for surprise.
And, and ultimately, you know, we, we can't find the, the, for
(37:17):
me as a performer, I can't find the complexity of discovering
what each one of these people, how they're going to behave in
their most honest conversation of their lives.
Because that's The thing is thatVerna isn't moralistic in a
traditional human, you know, way.
She, she doesn't have those kindof judgments.
So she's receiving someone exactly as they are.
And that in and of itself is freedom.
So in a way, you know what, what, what we came to, which was
(37:42):
really key for the character, isthat she, yes, 95% of the time
they will say what you think they're going to say, and 95% of
the time they will take the deal.
But and not look at the consequences right until they're
faced with them. But 5% of the time humans are
that wild that someone is going to behave differently.
(38:04):
And, and, and the Lenore stuff, I think is sort of evident of
that too. You know, evidence of that in
the sense that Verna is like, yes, these people, all the rest
of your family, there's a lineage of destruction with you.
Your intentions will also have alineage of building.
(38:25):
And and so it really transformedthe playing of that character to
find that curiosity that every time right before somebody goes,
you're like, I'm going to give you a true picture of yourself,
which will be a gift in and of itself, but I'm also going to
give you a choice to do something different.
Will you maybe take it? And, and so that's, it's just
(38:48):
funny that you say this and thatyou went into the foodie analogy
and then we just came back because that was actually just
such a key to, to, to sort of for me to that character.
You have several different variations and they're all, I
mean, so different in the way they carry themselves, the way
they speak, just pretty much every aspect of them.
(39:09):
How did you develop each and andthen keep track of them?
Because I don't know if you shotall one character at a time or
if it was back and forth, but you know, I, I, I know that
Catherine O'Hara from Shits Creek said that when she wanted
into Maura, she would say the name of a movie, I think it was
Avatar. And all she had to do was say,
then she'd say Avatar or something like that.
(39:32):
And then boom, she was in character.
So like, did you have any tricksor you know, and also, but how
did you develop them Like and kind of like their their psyche
and who they are. It was really interesting
because many of those accents weren't built in.
So what was really clear is thatwe didn't want Everett to be
sort of the costume show or the the me playing all these
(39:52):
different. You know, it was like we needed
this thread of Verna all the waythrough, but that each person,
as you said, really had different centers and different
voices so that we could also keep track of them.
So I would come to Mike and sortof audition them for him.
So for example, the animal shelter worker, she seemed like
the one of the things I love about her is that she just much
(40:14):
prefers animals to humans. And I know a lot of people like
that. And, and that she had this sort
of Midwestern practicality that I really found to be.
So I said I think she should be from the Midwest.
And I sort of started to do my own research and find who I
felt, you know, what sound, whatwas right sound.
And then I I did that for Mike and he was like, that's great.
(40:35):
And then, you know, and then andthen we we're sort of various
did that with various of the other characters.
Interestingly enough, the the prostitute character, she who
comes in briefly, but I had wanted her to.
I had initially thought she was a little bit more kind of almost
like in bullets over Broadway, like the sort of like a, like a,
(40:58):
a New Yorker with a, you know, high voice.
And I had this sort of hold and I kept sort of doing that for
him. And I could just tell as as much
as he was being gracious that I just could tell it wasn't quite
clicking. And, and I said, you know, I
feel like this one. And he was saying no, no, no, go
for it. You know, And I was like, I
think this one is just not, let me just keep experimenting.
And so anyway, literally three days before we ended up shooting
(41:19):
that part, I, we found her as a Brit and, and, but, but of
course it's not just, you know, you're building everything to
that. It's not just throwing an accent
on. So we ended up changing the
wardrobe and you know, so it wassuch a, it's such a cool process
that way. I worked with, I had the joy of
working with Terry Notary, who is an incredible, I don't know
if you know who he is, but he's an incredible movement artist,
(41:42):
but he also designed all of the planet of the apes, apes and
numerous other things. And he did that movie The
Square, I don't know if you saw it, he actually in a sequence
incarnates sort of an an animal ape kind of scenario in this
dinner party. And you can just see him
(42:03):
changing the energy in the room.And so I've been a fan of his
for a long time. So the fact that I had the
opportunity to work with him, hewas brought on predominantly to
work more on the Raven body language, sort of just that I
wanted to have certain bird likemovements, even if they were
appearing as human. If you look, you know, you'll
end up there sort of things thatwe explored there and then also
the cat. And, and so that was how it
(42:26):
started. But ultimately we worked really
extensively on where these different characters sat in
their bodies. And so a lot of the work,
oftentimes I end up working sortof from the inside out.
And, and this was a lot of physicality that informed inner
life. And so we did not shoot this in
sequence. So there were several days where
I had at least 2 characters to bring to life.
(42:47):
And it was immensely helpful to be able to lock in to a voice
and a place in the body in whichthey sat.
Cause like the, the, the woman who needs a heart transplant,
for example, who couldn't breathe.
Well, that was such a vastly different character than the
woman in episode 2 who's the blonde who obviously is the
seductress, you know? And so, so yeah.
(43:09):
So all of that helped me tremendously in terms of how to
click in and out of each versionfast.
And it's amazing to watch and tosee like, you know, just the way
you know, there's this kind of like a weightlessness to some
and the, you know, the the sickly, you know, she carries
herself a completely different way or you carry her well,
however you want to say that. And then when you you know the
(43:29):
security guard, there's like a certain.
Totally. The weight is lower, it's on the
hips, you know, and it's amazingto see.
Very escapely observed, by the way.
I'm so glad that that all came across 'cause you never know
what it conveyed. But those are all the things
that that we were that I was doing.
So thank you. Well, I truly want to go back
and watch it because, you know, like if there's so much mystery
(43:50):
and intrigue going on that, you know, I'm just trying to trying
to keep up and see, you know, where things are going to land.
And so now I can kind of watch and, and observe it in a
different way. I think it's going to be a a, a.
Fun way to watch, I know. I hope I get to speak to you at
some point after that. I, I do, I do feel whether I was
in it or not, not on a personal level, but that show I can say
(44:13):
definitely from both what peoplehave said to me and, and having
watched it twice because I watched an early incarnation and
a later incarnation. It's a it, it's a very
fulfilling second watch, maybe even more so in a way because
you do. There's just a lot of stuff
you'll see as you're going alonggoing, ah, oh, you know, it all
adds up sort of in a way that's very gratifying.
(44:36):
I. Think in every episode, anyway,
through the 1st watch, you have that like, oh, now this, you
know, this makes sense Now. I understand you're like the,
the, the the bread crumbs were there, but you didn't know where
they were leading. And then when you get there, and
usually it's some despicable person with a despicable end.
Yeah. Exactly.
Now I wanted Verna to feel like sort of she comes in and out of
(44:57):
the room almost like smoke. So, you know, we're and and same
with when and that was informed by the way that it was written,
which is, you know, in that like, for example, with the
heart patient in the scene with Tenaya's character when we're
talking. And then you see a very apparent
Verna in Verna out, you know, you really do.
But for in all of it, I just wanted it to be that, you know,
(45:22):
in each one there's always a moment where Verna sort of the
more who the the truest form of Verna will sort of seep through.
Yeah. Did you have a favorite Verna?
I I know it's. I know it is actually tough to
pick favorites because I had so I I really had so much fun with
(45:46):
that character. I mean, it was a tremendous
amount of work, but I'm such, I'm a worker, you know, it's
like it's my favorite thing to do is act.
So I had so much fun with every one of them.
I also love being able to reciteEdgar Allan Poe poetry.
I mean, when can you do a horrorshow for Netflix and actually
recite poetry? You know, it's just such AI
mean. It was such a gift.
But funnily enough, I really do have a soft spot for the animal
(46:08):
shelter worker. I just, I just, I really,
because the ape was fascinating because of, of just I, I had to
do so much work that I've never done physically to be able to
just even move like that. And that's why it was so cool
that it was the construction worker.
I mean, the, the the security guard because because like you
(46:30):
said, her center of gravity was already low, which made it like
a nice transition into that. But like the, the eight, I mean,
the chimp scares even me, you know what I mean?
I mean, that was that was sort of one of those.
I remember when we did the, the the scene and Michael Feminari
was directing that episode. But I remember talking to Mike
Flanagan later and I said, you know, you definitely have
blackmail footage on me now. You know, I mean, this is a this
(46:53):
is AII can. I cannot hold back.
There will be no vanity here. This is the antithesis of any
kind of glamour. So just, you know, if it doesn't
work, you know, just tell me andand you know, we'll reshoot it
or whatever. And it ended up being effective
and working. I'm very thankful.
But but so that one was an amazing challenge, but I can't
(47:14):
ever say a favorite because it freaks me out even when I see
it. Well, that that leap on the
table and there was like, what the Hell's going on here?
But it was like, you don't know what to expect and you know that
going in and you're not gonna know.
But even that like threw me off Like what?
And then and just so many, so many moments in the show,
there's like kind of this nervous laugh.
You're getting enjoyment out of this.
(47:35):
At the same time, you're kind ofterrified.
And at the same time, it speaks a lot deeper on on into the
humanity into what's going on inthe world.
I mean, I'll touch upon this roles like shift really quick,
but one thing I really loved wasthe line about shooting somebody
in 5th Ave. kind of feels like athrowaway line, but there's a
lot there to unravel And and Madeline's speech in the end is
(47:57):
just like infuriating, beyond infuriating.
And you're like, I, I, I think what's injected into this show,
if you watch it one way, it's just like, oh, that's a fun, you
know, kind of freaky show. But it is such a statement puts
humanity in in today's world under a microscope without
giving you all all the answers. No, I mean, I, I think it deals
(48:19):
hugely with accountability and with our deep ability to
compartmentalize and disassociate and deny what our
actions, what what might come ofthem.
And, and rather than come from aplace solely of judgment about
(48:40):
that, it also comes from a placeof like, let's look at this
because this is an aspect of allof us.
And, and you know, and then again, because Mike is such a
good writer, he wrote that that speech for Madeline and, and you
know, and obviously Mary, you know, killed it.
I mean, she's so amazing, but it's smart and, and there and,
(49:02):
and, and actually, you know, Bruce Greenwood's character has
a couple of those as well, wherehis speeches are.
If you didn't know better, they might convince you, you know,
and, and I think that's really important because if you make
one person sort of stupid on theother side, you know, it's like
this is actually like, no, theseare big things.
And it's human nature to try to gratify ourselves and kind of
not look like put blinders on. And you know, we need to it's,
(49:28):
it's, it's interesting thematic material to look at.
Yeah. I, I was really pleased that it
did, you know, go that route anddid, you know, address some of,
you know, the things that are onpeople's minds these days that
you feel often feel powerless and like, OK, am I the only one
noticing this? And this one kind of like shed a
spotlight on and it's like, OK, this world's kind of messed up
(49:51):
and keep noticing and keep pushing for change, I guess.
Exactly, And, and keep looking for that within ourselves.
And, and you know, I mean, I think that's the key, right, is
to keep seeing what we need to do to adjust.
And, and, and, and my belief, and it's such a, I mean, I'm,
you know, I'm, I am a bit of a hippie kid.
So, but, but I really do believethat the one way, because we can
(50:13):
feel so powerless is to, is love, as cliche as it sounds,
It's like, but, and I mean that with the people that we are the
closest with. But I also mean that I live in
New York City and one of the things I love about New York
City is you got into the streetsand you're all in it together.
And if you smile at someone, youcan see their face light up and
they're going to smile at the next person.
And if someone's violent with someone and they feel demeaned,
(50:35):
that's going to happen to the next person with that.
So it's like this, we really cancontinue to make people feel
seen and you know, people we don't even know.
Just a hello. And is is, I think huge, huge
these days. I totally agree.
I'm I'm right across the river. I'm in Jersey City.
(50:56):
You're oh nice. I love Jersey City are.
You there right now? Yeah, I am.
But did you get also a rainstormthat came through while we're
talking? Yes, yes, I was walking where
that came from. Yeah, that's so funny.
Clearly Verna. Clearly Verna.
Yes, please. No, no.
So I, I'm running short on time.I wanna one quick question and
(51:18):
then just a few TV topics to to close this out.
Did you have a favorite death scene?
Because they're so you, creativeand dark and but you, you.
It's one of those you you don't want to look, but you have to
look. I know, Yeah.
It, it's I, I might have to go. I might have to go with Henry
(51:39):
Thomas's. It's so crazy.
It's it's the pit in the pendulum is just such a wild
story. And then it's also, you know,
also, I think because I know what we had there when we were
shooting it and I know what thatsequence became.
And that's an example, for example, to me of something that
(51:59):
you just wouldn't have the meansto create practically anymore
and that didn't. But somehow, you know, the the
IT it works as opposed to, you know, when we were talking about
when you're trying to when you're making people that aren't
really people, that somehow still doesn't resonate with me.
But something like that. I found that sequence to be just
horrifying. And his characters also, I mean,
(52:21):
Henry's, you know, again, it's just such a brilliant group of
actors and he's so transformative.
And in that character, you just want that guy to go down so
badly. So I think it was a particularly
yeah, strong. One yeah, that's my pick as
well. Oh yeah.
Oh well. Oh, yeah.
Oh, very good. There's also just with, you
know, just being putting yourself in the shoes, just that
(52:43):
watching and knowing it's getting closer and closer.
Exactly. Exactly.
Yeah. Terrifying stuff.
So we'll close out with a few TVtopics questions and and get you
on your way. Quick one, what TV show would
you like to have one more seasonof?
It can be a prequel season. It would be the same actors.
Doesn't matter if they're alive or dead, you know, or what year
(53:04):
it was. It'd be, it can be a prequel, it
can be one right in the middle, or it can be a season, you know,
showing what happened after the show concluded.
Can it be something I'm in or itneeds to be something I've?
Watched it can be anything. Yet I really want another season
of the show called Jet that I did I we did it for HBOI play a
criminal. It was an incredible cast and
(53:27):
there's just so much more of that story to tell.
So, and I don't say that as you have, as you've gleaned from
from all the things that I've done.
So that one I really feel that way about in terms of well, I
and I can never get enough Babylon Berlin.
So you give me a prequel or a sequel, I'll take it.
(53:49):
I've got to watch it. I'm a fan of Jet.
Do you think it's ever possible that it could, you know, with
the, the way you know, the current climate of, of
television that you could get another season of Jet?
You know, actually, probably nowmore than ever in the sense that
that things are refound and resurrected.
And the truth of the matter is there's an entire second season
of that show written and it was it was always going to happen.
(54:11):
But Cinemax, which is where we, you know, originally made it,
you being a fan, you would mightknow that and HBO owned Cinemax.
Cinemax just disappeared. So, you know, sort of like the
Knick, Steven Soderbergh show that was on.
It's like the all of these things that sort of had this,
this home and and the Knick I think had had maybe had come to
a close by then. But so, so it was literally that
(54:32):
the network disappeared. So whether there's an
incarnation in which we can makeit again there or somewhere
else, you know, it could happen.It could happen.
So we'll see all. Right.
What would Verna's favorite showbe?
Oh wow, Verna, I feel like wouldactually be like Verna would,
would want to watch a just a straight up comedy.
(54:56):
I, I feel or, or, or, or Verna might be into like Friday Night
Lights. Verna, you know, might be, might
sort of, sort of be into this quaint small town that this sort
of like she's seen enough of, you know, the Roman times and,
and everything else. So maybe, maybe I'd go back to
(55:16):
a, you know, that's another, I mean, Friday Night Lights is
just, I think such an extraordinary show that I could
see more of as well. It would be something people
say. Wait, Verna, you watch this
this. Exactly.
That's she. You would definitely be
something that would surprise you.
Verna wouldn't watch what you'd think Verna would watch, you
know? Yeah.
She's very unpredictable. Exactly.
(55:37):
And the final one, if you can live in one TV show, you can.
So you can pop in whenever you want.
You don't think abandoned your life.
You have a door you can walk in and just be in this world and
walk around it. And then and you know, it could
be because it's terrifying. It could be because be, you
know, a wonderful place to be orwhatever it is, you know, like,
you know, hanging out with the, the, the Cleaver family.
(55:58):
Which she it would be, you know,what's funny is I think I don't
know if I can pick one for me right this moment in time, but
for much of my life, it would have been friends for much of my
younger life specifically, it just would have been I, I, I,
you know, and I, I know that I, I don't know why that show
(56:19):
connected throughout the entire world and for generation after
generation and still people are just obsessed with it.
But that would be a show that that for many years, anytime I
felt just a little off or down or anything, I'm just like, I
just want to watch an episode offriends.
Like there was just something that felt so good about it.
So I think if I could have entered that world and, and, and
(56:42):
hung out with those guys and I, I would have come back to my
life feeling pretty refreshed and.
There's something magic with that show because that that
answer has been given several times and I'm like, I don't
understand it. I mean, I, I do understand it,
but it's amazing that that's what people go to.
I know, I know. And, and, and I, I'm even
surprising myself that I'm saying that right now.
(57:02):
I'm sure that there's a sort of something that's more in keeping
with my aesthetic or something, but that one just, yeah, it's
funny. Well don't worry, if this ever
happens and you that door ever appears I'll I'll make sure
there's a die on what you can choose.
Hey, thank you. I appreciate it and I'll just
get what I, you know, I don't want to like have to live with
this answer forever. So thank you so much for your
(57:26):
time here today and your performance and, and all the
work you do, you know, from spincity on and I hope that someday
I hear the news that we have jetseason 2 coming because I know
it'll make you happy and, and many fans happy.
Thank you so much, so wonderful talking with you.
Have a beautiful. Day.
Thank you, thank you, thank you as well.
Bye, bye. Now.
Be sure to watch Carla's work onNetflix's The Fall of the House
(57:50):
of Usher, as well as close to a half dozen other Mike Flanagan
projects and so much more. A shout out to Emily AU for our
funky theme song and also to ourannouncer Kari Loya.
You can find him at kariloyavo.com.
It's in our profile. You can follow me directly on
Twitter, Letterbox and Instagram, all at Film Store.
As usual, thanks for listening and stay tuned for more TV
(58:13):
topics. TV Topics is produced by Stephen
Przukowski, ZAP.
Hey, where's the remote? It's time for TV Topics, where
those who love television discuss the series and
performances that should be on your radar.
Welcome back to TV TOPICS. I'm your host Steven
Persikowski. Hanging out today on the TV
TOPICS couch is an actress who Iwas first introduced to is
Ashley on Michael J Fox's sitcomSpin City.
(00:25):
She also brought us a Silk Spectre from the pages of the
graphic novel to the big screen in Watchmen.
She was everybody's favorite spymom in Spy Kids, and she's
haunted viewers in her work in several Mike Flanagan projects,
including The Fall of the House of Usher.
Of course, I'm talking about thegreat Carla Gugino.
(00:46):
Hello, I am Carla Gugino and today I am hanging out with
Steven Prusikowski on TV Topics.Welcome to TV Topics, Carla.
So I will just get things moving.
We'll talk about your work in the Fall of the House of Usher
and just a few, but first let's talk some TV topics.
Remember, there's no pressure and there's no right or wrong
answers. It's just a bit of fun.
(01:08):
So looking back over the years, what has been your relationship
with TV? Are you ATV junkie watches
everything? Are you very selective?
Do you have your go to shows? You know, it's interesting
because as a kid I was ATV junkie for sure.
I mean, I traveled, I, I should say that I moved around a lot as
a kid and in certain places thatI lived, we didn't have a TV.
(01:28):
I, I lived at, you know, teepee at one point and, and, and all
sorts of crazy things, but I, I was, I for me, I dream of genie,
which and bewitched and and thenultimately love boat, fantasy
island. These were all shows that I was
(01:49):
obsessed with. Some were, you know, some were
from before, but I still watch them and some were my time.
So I watched a lot of TV in my younger life.
And then it's interesting because I think with streaming
that shifted for me, which is that I, and, and then I'm, you
know, I'm sort of more of AI really love going to the movie
(02:12):
theater. When I was five, my mom took me
to jaws probably too early, especially because I was born in
Florida. And, and so I, that was a, a, a
traumatizing and yet very informative experience for me
about this sort of immersion andwhat a, a cinema can do.
(02:34):
And so then I became sort of more obsessed with movies and
going to the movies. And of course I watched friends.
I mean, there were certain showsthat, you know, were sort of
unavoidable in the best way. But now I would say that I watch
so much less television than many people, mostly because, and
I, you know, it's funny to say it being in the business, but I
get completely overwhelmed by how many things there are.
(02:57):
And, and so I end up watching something just if enough people
have said, hey, you've got to see this or if there's a friend
in it or a friend has made it or, you know, something like
that. So so in that way I feel always
like I'm sort of behind the 8 ball in terms of what's going on
in TV. Yeah, and someone who has to
watch like TV, there's, there's just so much.
(03:19):
It's impossible. No, I think that I think also
like the lack, it's a lack of curation, you know, I, I do
really believe that, you know, and, and, and, and the fact that
if when things used to sort of be watched weekly more, there
would be a conversation that went on for that whole week
where you were working, where you were going to buy your
groceries, where you're, where everyone was sharing this sort
of same experience. And I think now with binging
(03:41):
also, I was just talking to a couple of friends about this
because there's a the, the, the fact that if you've been
something but someone else hasn't yet, then you can't
really talk about it because you've seen it all.
But they haven't. And there was this wonderful
sort of moment where everyone was experiencing the same thing
at the same time. And additionally, there were
things that were more, Oh, I like, you know, the HBO really
(04:03):
did mean something specific at one point.
And, and you know, every, there were places that just had sort
of their personalities. And I feel like that's gone away
a little bit. So you might find an amazing
show that's on Apple or Peacock or Hulu, but then you forget
even which one you watched it on.
My wife was just asking me aboutthis show, your show, and it's
like what? What's it on?
(04:24):
Like, what channels it on? Like it's not a little channel.
Those days are kind of over. But you know, it's like you to
just to give somebody that direction, you know, the road
map to it and they go, oh, I don't have that one.
Yeah, I know it's interesting. And obviously Usher is on
Netflix and and then Girls on the bus, which is another show
that is just out right now that I that's on Max, which I still,
(04:45):
I still just always want to be like HBO Max.
Do do we have to take the HBO out?
But I did a show, you know, a, acouple of years ago that I, I
love leopard skin that SebastianGutierrez and I made together
that was on Peacock. And it was in a moment on
Peacock where just, it got wonderful reviews and stuff, but
then people didn't, couldn't find it.
And you know, and then many people were like, I don't have
(05:06):
Peacock. So it it is that sort of anyway
we're in a very interesting moment in time that I think is
actually, I think we always think that we are in the most
interesting or unusual or challenging moment, but I think
we are actually in a uniquely challenging moment for
entertainment. I agree.
I think we're in a uniquely challenging moment for a lot of
(05:28):
things, which I'll kind of get into a little bit later on.
So is there one TV character that you connected with most
could be, you know, as as a child or even as an adult,
someone you know, character thatjust.
You know, well, I think I would go from like, let's go, let's go
extremes. I think, you know, there was a
random kids show. Nice, nice, nice cup that was
(05:53):
called ices. She was this really cool woman
who, you know, flew around in a see through plane and, and there
and there was Bionic woman like all of those sort of heroic
Charlie's angels. I was obsessed with Jacqueline
Smith. I, I sort of felt like as a
young girl, I, I was like, I, I look kind of like her, you know,
And I remember years ago when I was doing Troop Beverly Hills,
(06:17):
so I must have been 16. I got to meet Jacqueline Smith
and I came up to her and I said,I just, you're so beautiful.
I couldn't, nothing could come out.
I didn't know what to say. And she just looked, I remember
with this most lovely look and said, you're so beautiful too.
And I remember at that moment just, you know, it was a really
impactful moment for me because I really had idolized her.
(06:38):
So I think Charlie's Angels actually was very impactful of
me. And then more recently, you
know, I would say things like, it's not that it's a character
that I necessarily want to emulate, but I, I characters
like, you know, the character inFleabag, for example, I think is
an extraordinary character because that character just
breaks all sorts of boundaries and rules and, and, and, and is
a woman that has all of these contradictions.
(07:02):
And, you know, you're sort of not sure that you'd want to be
friends with her, but you're also sort of compelled by her.
And, you know, I, I think what, what, what Phoebe Weller Bridge
did. And that is just just really
impressive. So I think that was a female
character that really struck me of late.
And I can of course name more, but but that, that's definitely
one of them that I just remembergoing, oh, I don't think I've
ever seen anyone. That's a good choice.
(07:22):
Yeah. Yeah.
She's, I mean, in, in, in the best ways, complex.
And I love that we have more complex characters out there
now. It's not just this one stroke.
And that's, you know, how they're painted.
And then that's all you get. And they don't evolve, you know
that. I don't remember the character's
name, but yes, her work in Fleabag was just tremendous.
Yeah. No, we have because I think that
(07:43):
the sort of the, the nature of heroes and villains ends up
being fine for, you know, certain kind of movie, a a
superhero movie or, you know, you know, it's like that.
But but I think that the nuance,I remember I was working on a
show many years ago and it was anetwork show and, and I was the
the lead character in it. And I had sort of been convinced
(08:06):
that this was not going to be a procedural show and that it was
going to be very character driven.
And the character was very complex.
And, and I was working with a lot of people I really respect.
But ultimately, I think in my naivete, I didn't really quite
understand that the network we were making it for had a very,
you know, strong sort of brand and that that brand was this,
this. And they were very successful
(08:26):
with it. This kind of where the hero, the
lead of the show is is sort of has to be one thing.
And so there was a moment where I was convinced.
I was like, I keep trying to just infuse.
Interesting, contradictory, likehumans, you know, sort of
elements into this character. And I feel like it keeps getting
taken out of the edit. It was a circumstance where I
was seeing first cuts of things.And I, I asked one of the
(08:50):
writers, I said, can we just sitdown and talk because I need to
talk to you about something. And I, I said, I'm sure this is
me being paranoid, but I feel like all of these things that
I'm trying are being cut out. And, and they looked at me very
matter of fact. And they said, Oh yeah, hero
protection. And I said, I, I literally don't
know what you're talking about. You have to like, that's a
foreign language. And basically they said, yeah,
we can't have any Gray in your character.
(09:11):
We, we, we don't want any momentwhere they question where she
might be coming from. And I said, you mean like a
human, you know, like an actual human being.
Even we ourselves don't even know where we're coming from in
many of our motivations. You know, we're dealing with
past traumas and all sorts of other things too.
So anyway, it was a really edifying moment for me and, and
one that was really informative in terms of what interests me as
(09:33):
well, because I, I just realizedin that particular environment
that I wasn't going to be, they could just get an actress who
could do the job well and was proficient and, and
professional. But in terms of trying to look
for some sort of inspiration or something unexpected in a human
that wasn't their interest. And it is mine.
(09:54):
So it was an it was a very, I learned.
The the best, the best characters are have Shades of
Grey, you know, and and how can a person watching this relate
when they got all right? They they're flawless.
Everything is just they're the good guy.
Yeah. Or even the bad guy.
Yeah, yeah. So what about shows that make
you laugh? Do you have one with like a a
stand out? Oh boy, what would be a show
(10:20):
that my stand out, You know, I, I don't know that I can even
come up with it. I mean, Saturday Night Live
really makes me laugh. It still makes me laugh.
So I guess that's a show that makes me laugh.
I find, I find there, I find, you know, I think it's
incredible that it is sustained for as many years as it has and
(10:41):
continues to have relevant skitsthat really, I think are just
more, you know, insightful and generally sort of shining a
light on a sort of a larger thing to look at, but also
really make me laugh. And I always find comedy to be
such a musical. There's such musical precision
(11:02):
in it. And the fact that those shows
are put together so quickly and still some of those skits are
just on point is really impressive to me.
Yeah. And so like going on close to 50
years, right? Yeah, I think so.
We're right there. It's it's amazing.
Bananas, yeah. Like, I can time my life to
certain skits, you know, when Eddie Murphy was on, when Will
(11:25):
Ferrell was on. I'm like, OK, I know where I
was. I know it's really crazy.
I was actually going through some old for research purposes.
I was like going through some old, you know, And I thought I
was like, Oh my gosh. Right.
They started on Saturday live. I mean, so many of the greatest
comedians of our time, obviously, but.
But yeah. And some of them behind the
scenes writing, too, which, you know, you don't know until
(11:46):
you're later. You find out I'm like, my God,
my cash was everybody was there like an assembly line that they
had to put the best of the best in comedy through through that
one room 30 Rock. OK.
Also on the opposite end of the spectrum, are you a crier?
And if so, what's the last show that made you cry?
I'm definitely a crier, especially on a plane.
(12:08):
Especially on a plane. And what is the last show though
that actually made me cry? Or or memorable cry that you
had. Doesn't have to be the last one.
Yeah. Well, no, I, I was going to say
that, that, that I, I knew, unfortunately this is going to
not be ATV show though, so it's not going to be exactly what you
(12:30):
want. But I just remember I was
watching the wedding planner on the on the plane and I was
literally tears were streaming down my face and I thought, I
don't think I'd be having this experience on the ground, but
there's something about this altitude that is making me find
this extremely touching. But I have to think about, you
know, I, I'm actually, I'm, it's, it's kind of a cool
(12:51):
question because. And I know that you, you I'm not
the only one you've asked this, but it's, it's kind of an
interesting question because I'mtrying to think about, you know,
I just, I, I started watching that show one day recently.
Yeah, I'm halfway in and, but I found it really moving.
I don't know that I actually cried, but I, I did find it
touching on some things that I find really beautiful and
(13:13):
profound and universal. But I was just thinking, yeah,
it's interesting that that I I think in a way maybe I I cry
more often in a in a darkened movie theater.
And maybe there there is part ofthat of just sort of being lost
in another world. And I'm going to now think about
you when I cry the next time in ATV show, because I don't think
(13:34):
that's happened very much for me.
How about you? Can you think of the last time?
The less well, Shogun, if you'vewatched that.
Yeah. No, I haven't seen it yet
because it's great. It's amazing.
It is amazing television. Amazing.
I, I, I've heard only amazing things about it and I will
actually I'm just, we just started watching the Park Chen
Wilk show with Robert Downey Junior.
(13:56):
The sympathizer. Yeah, yeah, and it's fascinating
and obviously cinematically amazing because of, you know,
Park Chen book, but but a great Shogun that was that that
literally is on is is on my list.
So excellent. Yeah, it's a must watch it.
It takes you back to the days ofwhen there were the big Event E
series. Yeah, not just the the scale of
(14:17):
it now, the storytelling I thinkis it's much better than it was
back then, but it still has something about it that just has
this epic yeah feel to it, whichyou don't get so often anymore.
No, you know, the last show thatthe, the show that I am obsessed
with and I feel that way about is Babylon Berlin.
I don't know if you've ever watched it, but it's it's Tom
Tikvur who did Run Lola Run and he's a a wonderful German
(14:39):
director and he and two partners, you know, ran that
show. And it's it's on Netflix,
Netflix Germany. And it's the biggest show that
has been made and I think in in Germany ever.
And it's also the most successful show, but it's the
Weimer Republic just before Hitler comes in and it's Berlin
(14:59):
and it's amazing and the acting across the board is exquisite,
but it's also huge production value.
And, and I felt the same way, which is like, oh gosh, we don't
do that anymore. And, and I'm sure there's CGI
and stuff, but you don't actually.
It feels like it's all real people there and they're these
huge crowds. Which I think it really helps it
land better. I think when they, when you get
(15:20):
too obsessed with that CGI, I'm like, you know what, you could
have used a puppet or a lightingeffect or some good editing and
I think it would would, you know, feel more real and land
better with people. Yeah, I, I used to have the
poster. I'm like, I I still have it
somewhere of from run, little run.
I love that film. So I'll have to go watch it.
Well, you have to watch it and just the reminder to watch it
(15:41):
with the subtitles, but and not the dubbing because I think it's
so because the, the dialogue is beautiful as well.
And, and yeah. And Bryan Ferry of Roxy Music
did the first season of music and that's amazing.
And Johnny Climax, who's the composer, in fact, who's now
composed a couple of shows that I've been a part of, Jet and
Leopard Skin. He does the Wachowski's films
(16:03):
too. I, I, I, we were, I was just so
obsessed with him that we ended up tracking him down.
He's an amazing composer. So yeah.
I will have to check that out for sure.
Well, let's go into some of yourwork now and and I first started
watching it when you're on spin city with Michael J Fox.
And decades later, I still have been, you know, tracking down
(16:25):
your work and and trying to watch it all.
But it's you make a lot of content, you know, you TV shows,
movies, everything. So but I'm I'm doing my best.
Well, thank you. That means a lot to me.
So thank you. Thank you.
I remember watching Spin City and when you left after the
first season I was like, oh, why's she gone?
That was such a strange Gary David Goldberg, who was amazing,
(16:47):
who created that. And my experience with Michael
and everybody on it. I mean, still my, you know, my,
my best friend of many, many years is Connie Britton.
And we met on that when we were both so young and living in New
York City filming that it was anextraordinary time.
But you know what, what Gary, what we realized was I was the,
you know, I was Michael worked in the mayor's office, His
(17:10):
character and my character was areporter.
And and I remember when when I was, you know, up for the show
and then ultimately they wanted me to do the show.
I said, I just don't want to be the girlfriend stuck in the
apartment. Like as long as there can be,
she can have her own life and and there can be these
storylines that are, you know, interesting.
They said no, no, of course, andthen realized that ultimately
(17:30):
reporters are not allowed into the mayor's office, which was
actually a main set, obviously. And so it ended up just becoming
apparent by the end of that first season that there that
that Michael's character needed to have other girlfriends,
etcetera, and that my character was stuck in this world that I
had really not wanted her to be stuck in.
So it was a very super amicable and mutual decision.
(17:55):
But yeah, but it was A and, and,and also at that time, I ended
up going straight to do Snake Eyes, which is a movie with Nick
Cage and Brian De Palma. And so that was also kind of a
meant to be opportunity that I was then able to do that.
And also a film called Judas Kiss with Emma Thompson and Alan
Rickman, Simon Baker, bunch of great people too.
So it, it was, it was sort of meant to be, but it was a short
(18:18):
lived but really impactful experience.
It's still a brave move. You know you're on a series with
Michael J Fox. It's on ABCI.
Think the ratings were very good.
It lasted quite a long time. Being willing to walk away.
Not everyone would do that, so good for you.
No, no. And it was, you know, but it was
also sort of that weird thing oflike, I think had it been solely
(18:39):
my decision, that would have been maybe even an additional
amount of pressure. But I think because it was so
clear that for the show, there was like a best way to go.
And, and so I think they were also just happy that I sort of
saw it and agreed, you know? Fast forward about 30 years, I
think, or close to that, and we're at the Fall of the House
(19:00):
of Usher, which I must say, the series is totally lemon.
Try to squeeze that in there. And before I get into that
though, I'm still wanted to start a little bit further back
this amazing acting career. Where did it all start?
Yeah, I, you know, I, I, my parents split up when I was very
(19:21):
young, but they were remained very friendly with each other
and that sort of wasn't a huge deal other than that I ended up
moving. So I, I, I was born in Florida.
I moved with my mom to California.
We did live in, in Big Sur in very, we've lived in beautiful
homes also. But we also did, there was a
point where I had a a kidney operation that was quite
(19:42):
serious. And my mom brought me to this
live with these gold miners in, in Northern California.
They were in a bus They had, they were all sort of ex Xerox
executives who had gone to like go off the grid and look for
gold. And she would this, you know,
this is in the 70s. And she we ended up erecting
this teepee And I lived there for a number of months and then
eventually went and lived with my dad and my stepmother in
(20:05):
Sarasota, where I went to private school and then traveled
to Europe in the summer. So it was like a very different
kinds of lives and and and was ajust a gypsy by nature for for.
I went then back to California and moved up and down the coast
with my mom. And then I really came to Los
Angeles 1 summer when I was about 14 and, and my aunt, Carol
(20:29):
Merrill, who had been, she was on a show called Let's Make a
Deal with Monty Hall. She was sort of the original
Vanna White. And she turned me on to an
acting class in in Los Angeles. And I took it that summer.
It was a man named Jean Bewa, who's no longer with us, who
taught a cold reading class. And I was a very, I think
(20:50):
probably because of so much movement in so many different
environments. I was both able to be a gypsy,
which I think was really helpfulin this profession because
you're always sort of up and offto a new city to make it, to
call it your home while you're creating a character.
But also it made me very, I was a very good student.
Like I, I, I definitely was a sort of serious kid.
(21:11):
And I think it was because I hadthe one thing I had in each
place was a school. So that became very important to
me. And, and so I think maybe
because of all the sort of malleability of my childhood, I
was like very type A. And so when I did my first scene
in that acting class, I rememberthinking, oh, wow, I get this is
(21:33):
you're supposed to let go of controlled, but in, of control,
but in a controlled environment.So the idea that I can sort of
jump off this Cliff creatively, but that's what my job is.
This is amazing. So it allowed me to access parts
of myself that I think I was tooscared to in life.
And I got a agent and a manager from that experience.
(21:54):
And, and ultimately was, you know, sort of being cast in in
guest starring roles on TV showsby the time I was 15.
And then I got emancipated at 16so that adults didn't have to
come to set and be with me all day and I could just go and work
and. And yeah, that was sort of how
it all started. Incredible.
You know, you wonder if one whatif 11 path going back to to run
(22:18):
little run if one Ave. or turn was changed, where would it
where would it have all LED? Would it have led to this or
not? I know, right?
I I know It's no, it's, it's a or or and, and and also, as you
know, like we, we can never tellsort of what path we're even
really on in our lives until we look back.
And then sometimes you go, oh, that was the path.
I wouldn't have, you know, I didn't know it when I was on it,
(22:40):
which is interesting. You have this great partnership
with Mike Flanagan, and at this point I'm wondering, can you
possibly say no to him? Well, I wouldn't ever want to
say no to him, but the beautifulthing about Mike Flanagan in
that regard is that he's always,there was one instance where I
(23:04):
just literally couldn't do what he was asking me to do because I
had another obligation, work obligation.
And, and you know, he's always so incredibly generous that way.
And I and, and, and I guess thatmakes you even more not ever
want to say no, but, but no, I, I, I, you know, he has really
written me, you know, some of the most extraordinary roles
(23:26):
that I've ever gotten to play. And, and it's, it's funny
because, you know, going from Gerald's Game and then, and then
the Haunting of Hill House to play Olivia.
And that was an extraordinary experience.
And, and then Bly Manor was justthis fun sort of experiment
because I, I only was able to work a couple of days on that
(23:48):
because of other scheduling things that I had.
And so we sort of, he was like, actually, you know, she was
written much older than you, butwe could actually, you know,
Dawn, a Gray wig, and you could actually be the older version's
character. And then that actually morphed
into it being sort of the the narrator of the whole show,
which wasn't the intention initially.
(24:09):
And then with Verna, you know, Idon't know that I'll ever get
the opportunity again to be asked to play eight different
versions of a non human character, but make each of
those versions deeply human and have one of those versions be an
ape. You know, I mean, I, I just, I,
(24:32):
I feel so, so immensely grateful.
And, and I also have such a fun time collaborating with him.
So that's the, that's the boon. You know, I think so often you,
you know, have experiences that are really tricky on set and the
work might still be good and theshow might still be good, but
it's a whole another, you know, set of issues or where, you
(24:55):
know, you have amazing times andthen the the product isn't as
good, you know, So this is so gratifying because I love the
collaborative experience. And, you know, and he's also
such a keen filmmaker. And so he, he, you know, and I
think also because he writes, directs and edits, he has such a
(25:15):
trajectory of, of what he wants to do that that, that the fact
that he is so clear allows for collaboration.
What I loved about it was I didn't know what your role was
going to be. So after the first episode, I'm
like, where's Carla? You're on the, you know, you're
on the thumbnail and like, you know, you, you had like just at
(25:36):
the very end, right? You had like a very big part.
And then we meet you again and then we meet you again and
again. And then, you know, you're a
chimp and you're a security guard and I, I'm like, and even
the second episode, you know, I was like, are you just gonna
kind of be this like character that weaves in and out and
doesn't really have that much screen time?
(25:58):
So I was gonna as a fan, not bummed out, but I was like, I, I
hope, I hope there's more. And then, you know, it blows up.
So it's really wonderful though to not know what to expect and
then just like eat it all up as it as it happens.
That's really cool to hear. You know, it was interesting
because funnily enough, Olivia was a little bit like that in in
(26:19):
the Haunting of Hell House because there had to be so much
mystery like in regards to was she alive, was she dead?
All all these things that she also, I, I believe Olivia's
episode was like episode 9 out of 10, you know, the one that
sort of centered around her. But with Verna, it was so
interesting because it was interesting to see people's
reactions before they had seen the whole thing sort of in real
(26:40):
time as it was all of a sudden on and people were like, is she
a demon? Is she the you know, is she the
and and it was it was particularly gratifying to to
get to see it unfold as people start to understand in real time
what's going on, because contextually, we don't even
understand all of it obviously till quite towards the end.
(27:01):
It's also been particularly gratifying that, you know, that
this attention, even in terms ofawards conversations or critical
response. I feel like Mike Flanagan's
project, you know, he's he he's all critics are really
appreciative of what he does. And, and as as I think it's very
(27:22):
apartment 'cause he's so good atit and he's always interested in
delving into sort of the more complex version of, of anything
he attacks. And so, you know, this genre is
obviously something that he loves, but but that that I feel
like there's been this sort of attention coming to this role of
Verna and, and the show in general in a genre that, you
(27:44):
know, is, is generally ignored by awards, etcetera.
And I think we've, you know, we've made progress.
I mean, you know, and obviously I, I think any great actor knows
that this genre affords just theability to explore the most deep
(28:07):
and rich emotions. You know, you're distracting an
audience with, with sort of, youknow, you need to make sure that
the, the the thriller slash coreaspects work, but then you can
explore anything. And you know, and obviously
we've seen it with Kathy Bates in misery or Anthony Hopkins in
Silence of the lambs or Jack Nicholson in the shining or, you
know, we some of our greatest performances are, are in this
(28:27):
genre. And yet still I think that, you
know, it's just, it's just exciting to see and to feel
first hand that that that sort of there is a shift in that way
and, and that's exciting. Well, you kind of answered my
next question, but not exactly, so I'm going to ask it.
Are you a fan of horror or are you just really good at it?
(28:48):
I, I am a fan of our shadow sides as humans in terms of
being an actress. I, I love to explore, you know,
some characters I learned from and want to be more like and
some characters I think, oh, thank God, I'm not, you know,
that that that's not my life where that's not the way I look
at the world. But I find really digging into
(29:11):
the depths to be really exciting.
And, and that's sort of what I've chosen in terms of my
theater work, in the terms of the plays I've done as well.
But no, I was never a horror fanper SE.
I've always been a fan of thingsdone really well.
For sure. The Shining is one of my
(29:31):
favorite movies of all time and always has been.
But so is all that jazz and, youknow, and, and, and so is
Silkwood. So, you know, I, I think that
for me, it's, it's when I see somebody doing something really
well, if I have the opportunity to be a part of it, I want to
be. And it's also how I end up
(29:52):
appreciating things that I may not have been that exposed to.
Or, you know, when I did Watchmen or Sin City, you know,
I wasn't a particularly graphic novel person.
And then I found myself reading graphic novels and familiarizing
myself with those particular graphic novelists.
And, you know, and then I had a whole new appreciation for it.
And I do feel that way about horror.
(30:13):
I see it very differently havingnow done, you know, several
projects in that genre. Yeah, Mike's writing is so
incredible. I hate to go with the elevated
horror tag, but really it is. Yeah.
I want to go back and rewatch it.
I want to go back and read. Watching the series really made
me want to go back and read somePO and see how my take on the
(30:37):
series changes. I wonder what I would extract
from the series after reading because it's it seems like
there's just so much you can unravel there.
And I I know I'm just touching the the surface.
Without question. And I think he, you know, he is
insanely knowledgeable in terms of post.
So, so there are all these wonderful little Easter eggs in
there. But I, I know what you mean.
I mean, unfortunately the word elevated, I think has just been,
(30:59):
you know, overused of late. That being said, I, I, I think
one way of putting it is that hehas an incredibly humanistic
take in the genre. And I think that and, and, and
that is key. And I, and I think in a strange
way, he might have maybe even gravitated towards me as an
artist, because that's not the genre that I'm necessarily
(31:20):
associated with. Funnily enough, now it is, but
it wasn't, you know, And, and I think that the, the thing that
I, when I read his work, I know that it, it's going to function
so well in terms of the genre. That's not my job.
My job is actually to dig deep and find the nuances of, of
these human beings. And he is always, he's, you
(31:46):
know, I think historically and maybe maybe it also comes with
being older, that I either demand it more or that I'm not
beholden to playing the ingenue or the person who people are
projecting on a certain kind of thing that happens much more as
a young woman. But there was a long period of
my career where I just felt like, can I just be as complex
(32:06):
as I am as a human at least? Like, why are we having to make
this woman, you know, sort of like, try to like box her in
And, and it's because, you know,we're scared for people not to
like her or, you know, whatever these things are.
And I think when I was in ingenue, I looked like it, but I
didn't sound like it or feel like it.
(32:28):
My voice was always lower. And I I just never felt like
that inside. So what was, is so wonderful
about him as a filmmaker is thathe, you know, he's never asking
you to be smaller. He's always welcoming you to dig
deeper or make something more complex.
And, and that that's such a gift.
You know, you can make so many more discoveries.
(32:49):
And, and in so many of those discoveries is what audience
members or critics have really pointed out things where we
really dug deeper to something that wasn't even initially there
perhaps and, and, and, and foundsomething that resonated.
So, so I think you're, I think you're right in that way that it
is actually elevated it, it is someone whose desires are to dig
(33:14):
deep. I, I are you a foodie?
Because it seems like with when I now you look at your career
and the genres and the characters you've taken on that
you're a good sampler and you, you explore and you, and you
don't just like go back to what you're comfortable with.
Like, OK, I did that. Now I want to try this or I like
that. Now how do I elevate?
That's the next level. And, and it's, it's really
(33:35):
amazing to to listen and and hear like, like I even said
with, with spin city to say no, that was great time to move on
and and look at your next opportunity.
By the way, I, I am, I am obsessed with food.
It's, I think I just take it as it's probably my Italian
heritage, but I do feel that there's nothing more exciting
(33:59):
than sitting with people that you love and breaking bread and,
and talking, you know, and, and,and, and I feel like the best
advice for, you know, kids are raised at a dinner table.
I feel like we find ourselves in, in, you know, mirrors of our
friends and, and family at, at meals.
(34:20):
And so, so I am. And it's funny that you say that
about the sampling because you just described exactly the
truth, which is that I, and maybe, you know, as you said it
when you said it, that the way that you just said it, it made
me think, huh, maybe that did also come from being uprooted
several times in my childhood and being able to readapt
(34:41):
quickly and also maybe to get a little bored of, of doing the
same thing over and over, you know, and also that I was
exposed to, to, you know, I remember when I was seven, I
tried escargot and, you know, inFrance and, and, and, and things
like that, you know what I mean?Where you're like, most kids
would just be like, no way. But I do think when we're
(35:03):
exposed to, to new things, usually it's a pretty good, you
know, usually, you know, occasionally you're like, I
don't need to ever do that again.
But mostly, you're happy that you broaden your horizons.
I, I love that. I, I mean, that's one of, that's
one of the things I always try to put, you know, plant in my
daughter's heads and, and just say, you know, always try and do
something new. I, I know you like this sport,
(35:24):
but you know, what? If, why don't you try this out
instead? If you're, if you're willing to,
why don't you try this? And, and they both latched onto
it. And the really funny coincidence
is my daughter, we went to, to Paris and we sat down and I
ordered escargot. And she said, what's that?
I said, it's escargot. She goes, that's snails, right?
And I said, yeah. And she goes, all right, I'll
have one. I'm like, what?
(35:45):
I thought you were, you know herknowing that.
And she? Chewed and chewed and chewed and
chewed and, you know, probably about a minute and a half later,
it's like I can't swallow this. It's like the texture was bad.
But she, you know, she ate a snail goingly.
She. Went for it.
Yeah, and she continues all the time.
Anytime I'm eating something andshe's 16 now and she's like,
(36:05):
what? What's that?
I'll try it. And I'm like, fantastic.
I mean, I think curiosity is ourmost precious quality and to
remain curious and to to instillin our children curiosity.
And funnily enough, funny with Verna, it was actually a key
thing because the way in which it's structured and the way in
(36:27):
which it was written is that we see her, you know, be very
instrumental in the end of several people's lives in a row,
right. And, and, and that she has this
sort of potentially omniscient Raven on a on a perch watching
things. She's not human.
She's the sort of hand of fate or the, you know, the hand of
(36:49):
karma, some sort of, but I had said to Mike early on, you know,
if, if she knows everything and if it's sort of a feta complete,
if she, if she kind of has the answers and she knows how
everyone's going to behave because she's lived for
centuries. We have no room for surprise.
And, and ultimately, you know, we, we can't find the, the, for
(37:17):
me as a performer, I can't find the complexity of discovering
what each one of these people, how they're going to behave in
their most honest conversation of their lives.
Because that's The thing is thatVerna isn't moralistic in a
traditional human, you know, way.
She, she doesn't have those kindof judgments.
So she's receiving someone exactly as they are.
And that in and of itself is freedom.
So in a way, you know what, what, what we came to, which was
(37:42):
really key for the character, isthat she, yes, 95% of the time
they will say what you think they're going to say, and 95% of
the time they will take the deal.
But and not look at the consequences right until they're
faced with them. But 5% of the time humans are
that wild that someone is going to behave differently.
(38:04):
And, and, and the Lenore stuff, I think is sort of evident of
that too. You know, evidence of that in
the sense that Verna is like, yes, these people, all the rest
of your family, there's a lineage of destruction with you.
Your intentions will also have alineage of building.
(38:25):
And and so it really transformedthe playing of that character to
find that curiosity that every time right before somebody goes,
you're like, I'm going to give you a true picture of yourself,
which will be a gift in and of itself, but I'm also going to
give you a choice to do something different.
Will you maybe take it? And, and so that's, it's just
(38:48):
funny that you say this and thatyou went into the foodie analogy
and then we just came back because that was actually just
such a key to, to, to sort of for me to that character.
You have several different variations and they're all, I
mean, so different in the way they carry themselves, the way
they speak, just pretty much every aspect of them.
(39:09):
How did you develop each and andthen keep track of them?
Because I don't know if you shotall one character at a time or
if it was back and forth, but you know, I, I, I know that
Catherine O'Hara from Shits Creek said that when she wanted
into Maura, she would say the name of a movie, I think it was
Avatar. And all she had to do was say,
then she'd say Avatar or something like that.
(39:32):
And then boom, she was in character.
So like, did you have any tricksor you know, and also, but how
did you develop them Like and kind of like their their psyche
and who they are. It was really interesting
because many of those accents weren't built in.
So what was really clear is thatwe didn't want Everett to be
sort of the costume show or the the me playing all these
(39:52):
different. You know, it was like we needed
this thread of Verna all the waythrough, but that each person,
as you said, really had different centers and different
voices so that we could also keep track of them.
So I would come to Mike and sortof audition them for him.
So for example, the animal shelter worker, she seemed like
the one of the things I love about her is that she just much
(40:14):
prefers animals to humans. And I know a lot of people like
that. And, and that she had this sort
of Midwestern practicality that I really found to be.
So I said I think she should be from the Midwest.
And I sort of started to do my own research and find who I
felt, you know, what sound, whatwas right sound.
And then I I did that for Mike and he was like, that's great.
(40:35):
And then, you know, and then andthen we we're sort of various
did that with various of the other characters.
Interestingly enough, the the prostitute character, she who
comes in briefly, but I had wanted her to.
I had initially thought she was a little bit more kind of almost
like in bullets over Broadway, like the sort of like a, like a,
(40:58):
a New Yorker with a, you know, high voice.
And I had this sort of hold and I kept sort of doing that for
him. And I could just tell as as much
as he was being gracious that I just could tell it wasn't quite
clicking. And, and I said, you know, I
feel like this one. And he was saying no, no, no, go
for it. You know, And I was like, I
think this one is just not, let me just keep experimenting.
And so anyway, literally three days before we ended up shooting
(41:19):
that part, I, we found her as a Brit and, and, but, but of
course it's not just, you know, you're building everything to
that. It's not just throwing an accent
on. So we ended up changing the
wardrobe and you know, so it wassuch a, it's such a cool process
that way. I worked with, I had the joy of
working with Terry Notary, who is an incredible, I don't know
if you know who he is, but he's an incredible movement artist,
(41:42):
but he also designed all of the planet of the apes, apes and
numerous other things. And he did that movie The
Square, I don't know if you saw it, he actually in a sequence
incarnates sort of an an animal ape kind of scenario in this
dinner party. And you can just see him
(42:03):
changing the energy in the room.And so I've been a fan of his
for a long time. So the fact that I had the
opportunity to work with him, hewas brought on predominantly to
work more on the Raven body language, sort of just that I
wanted to have certain bird likemovements, even if they were
appearing as human. If you look, you know, you'll
end up there sort of things thatwe explored there and then also
the cat. And, and so that was how it
(42:26):
started. But ultimately we worked really
extensively on where these different characters sat in
their bodies. And so a lot of the work,
oftentimes I end up working sortof from the inside out.
And, and this was a lot of physicality that informed inner
life. And so we did not shoot this in
sequence. So there were several days where
I had at least 2 characters to bring to life.
(42:47):
And it was immensely helpful to be able to lock in to a voice
and a place in the body in whichthey sat.
Cause like the, the, the woman who needs a heart transplant,
for example, who couldn't breathe.
Well, that was such a vastly different character than the
woman in episode 2 who's the blonde who obviously is the
seductress, you know? And so, so yeah.
(43:09):
So all of that helped me tremendously in terms of how to
click in and out of each versionfast.
And it's amazing to watch and tosee like, you know, just the way
you know, there's this kind of like a weightlessness to some
and the, you know, the the sickly, you know, she carries
herself a completely different way or you carry her well,
however you want to say that. And then when you you know the
(43:29):
security guard, there's like a certain.
Totally. The weight is lower, it's on the
hips, you know, and it's amazingto see.
Very escapely observed, by the way.
I'm so glad that that all came across 'cause you never know
what it conveyed. But those are all the things
that that we were that I was doing.
So thank you. Well, I truly want to go back
and watch it because, you know, like if there's so much mystery
(43:50):
and intrigue going on that, you know, I'm just trying to trying
to keep up and see, you know, where things are going to land.
And so now I can kind of watch and, and observe it in a
different way. I think it's going to be a a, a.
Fun way to watch, I know. I hope I get to speak to you at
some point after that. I, I do, I do feel whether I was
in it or not, not on a personal level, but that show I can say
(44:13):
definitely from both what peoplehave said to me and, and having
watched it twice because I watched an early incarnation and
a later incarnation. It's a it, it's a very
fulfilling second watch, maybe even more so in a way because
you do. There's just a lot of stuff
you'll see as you're going alonggoing, ah, oh, you know, it all
adds up sort of in a way that's very gratifying.
(44:36):
I. Think in every episode, anyway,
through the 1st watch, you have that like, oh, now this, you
know, this makes sense Now. I understand you're like the,
the, the the bread crumbs were there, but you didn't know where
they were leading. And then when you get there, and
usually it's some despicable person with a despicable end.
Yeah. Exactly.
Now I wanted Verna to feel like sort of she comes in and out of
(44:57):
the room almost like smoke. So, you know, we're and and same
with when and that was informed by the way that it was written,
which is, you know, in that like, for example, with the
heart patient in the scene with Tenaya's character when we're
talking. And then you see a very apparent
Verna in Verna out, you know, you really do.
But for in all of it, I just wanted it to be that, you know,
(45:22):
in each one there's always a moment where Verna sort of the
more who the the truest form of Verna will sort of seep through.
Yeah. Did you have a favorite Verna?
I I know it's. I know it is actually tough to
pick favorites because I had so I I really had so much fun with
(45:46):
that character. I mean, it was a tremendous
amount of work, but I'm such, I'm a worker, you know, it's
like it's my favorite thing to do is act.
So I had so much fun with every one of them.
I also love being able to reciteEdgar Allan Poe poetry.
I mean, when can you do a horrorshow for Netflix and actually
recite poetry? You know, it's just such AI
mean. It was such a gift.
But funnily enough, I really do have a soft spot for the animal
(46:08):
shelter worker. I just, I just, I really,
because the ape was fascinating because of, of just I, I had to
do so much work that I've never done physically to be able to
just even move like that. And that's why it was so cool
that it was the construction worker.
I mean, the, the the security guard because because like you
(46:30):
said, her center of gravity was already low, which made it like
a nice transition into that. But like the, the eight, I mean,
the chimp scares even me, you know what I mean?
I mean, that was that was sort of one of those.
I remember when we did the, the the scene and Michael Feminari
was directing that episode. But I remember talking to Mike
Flanagan later and I said, you know, you definitely have
blackmail footage on me now. You know, I mean, this is a this
(46:53):
is AII can. I cannot hold back.
There will be no vanity here. This is the antithesis of any
kind of glamour. So just, you know, if it doesn't
work, you know, just tell me andand you know, we'll reshoot it
or whatever. And it ended up being effective
and working. I'm very thankful.
But but so that one was an amazing challenge, but I can't
(47:14):
ever say a favorite because it freaks me out even when I see
it. Well, that that leap on the
table and there was like, what the Hell's going on here?
But it was like, you don't know what to expect and you know that
going in and you're not gonna know.
But even that like threw me off Like what?
And then and just so many, so many moments in the show,
there's like kind of this nervous laugh.
You're getting enjoyment out of this.
(47:35):
At the same time, you're kind ofterrified.
And at the same time, it speaks a lot deeper on on into the
humanity into what's going on inthe world.
I mean, I'll touch upon this roles like shift really quick,
but one thing I really loved wasthe line about shooting somebody
in 5th Ave. kind of feels like athrowaway line, but there's a
lot there to unravel And and Madeline's speech in the end is
(47:57):
just like infuriating, beyond infuriating.
And you're like, I, I, I think what's injected into this show,
if you watch it one way, it's just like, oh, that's a fun, you
know, kind of freaky show. But it is such a statement puts
humanity in in today's world under a microscope without
giving you all all the answers. No, I mean, I, I think it deals
(48:19):
hugely with accountability and with our deep ability to
compartmentalize and disassociate and deny what our
actions, what what might come ofthem.
And, and rather than come from aplace solely of judgment about
(48:40):
that, it also comes from a placeof like, let's look at this
because this is an aspect of allof us.
And, and you know, and then again, because Mike is such a
good writer, he wrote that that speech for Madeline and, and you
know, and obviously Mary, you know, killed it.
I mean, she's so amazing, but it's smart and, and there and,
(49:02):
and, and actually, you know, Bruce Greenwood's character has
a couple of those as well, wherehis speeches are.
If you didn't know better, they might convince you, you know,
and, and I think that's really important because if you make
one person sort of stupid on theother side, you know, it's like
this is actually like, no, theseare big things.
And it's human nature to try to gratify ourselves and kind of
not look like put blinders on. And you know, we need to it's,
(49:28):
it's, it's interesting thematic material to look at.
Yeah. I, I was really pleased that it
did, you know, go that route anddid, you know, address some of,
you know, the things that are onpeople's minds these days that
you feel often feel powerless and like, OK, am I the only one
noticing this? And this one kind of like shed a
spotlight on and it's like, OK, this world's kind of messed up
(49:51):
and keep noticing and keep pushing for change, I guess.
Exactly, And, and keep looking for that within ourselves.
And, and you know, I mean, I think that's the key, right, is
to keep seeing what we need to do to adjust.
And, and, and, and my belief, and it's such a, I mean, I'm,
you know, I'm, I am a bit of a hippie kid.
So, but, but I really do believethat the one way, because we can
(50:13):
feel so powerless is to, is love, as cliche as it sounds,
It's like, but, and I mean that with the people that we are the
closest with. But I also mean that I live in
New York City and one of the things I love about New York
City is you got into the streetsand you're all in it together.
And if you smile at someone, youcan see their face light up and
they're going to smile at the next person.
And if someone's violent with someone and they feel demeaned,
(50:35):
that's going to happen to the next person with that.
So it's like this, we really cancontinue to make people feel
seen and you know, people we don't even know.
Just a hello. And is is, I think huge, huge
these days. I totally agree.
I'm I'm right across the river. I'm in Jersey City.
(50:56):
You're oh nice. I love Jersey City are.
You there right now? Yeah, I am.
But did you get also a rainstormthat came through while we're
talking? Yes, yes, I was walking where
that came from. Yeah, that's so funny.
Clearly Verna. Clearly Verna.
Yes, please. No, no.
So I, I'm running short on time.I wanna one quick question and
(51:18):
then just a few TV topics to to close this out.
Did you have a favorite death scene?
Because they're so you, creativeand dark and but you, you.
It's one of those you you don't want to look, but you have to
look. I know, Yeah.
It, it's I, I might have to go. I might have to go with Henry
(51:39):
Thomas's. It's so crazy.
It's it's the pit in the pendulum is just such a wild
story. And then it's also, you know,
also, I think because I know what we had there when we were
shooting it and I know what thatsequence became.
And that's an example, for example, to me of something that
(51:59):
you just wouldn't have the meansto create practically anymore
and that didn't. But somehow, you know, the the
IT it works as opposed to, you know, when we were talking about
when you're trying to when you're making people that aren't
really people, that somehow still doesn't resonate with me.
But something like that. I found that sequence to be just
horrifying. And his characters also, I mean,
(52:21):
Henry's, you know, again, it's just such a brilliant group of
actors and he's so transformative.
And in that character, you just want that guy to go down so
badly. So I think it was a particularly
yeah, strong. One yeah, that's my pick as
well. Oh yeah.
Oh well. Oh, yeah.
Oh, very good. There's also just with, you
know, just being putting yourself in the shoes, just that
(52:43):
watching and knowing it's getting closer and closer.
Exactly. Exactly.
Yeah. Terrifying stuff.
So we'll close out with a few TVtopics questions and and get you
on your way. Quick one, what TV show would
you like to have one more seasonof?
It can be a prequel season. It would be the same actors.
Doesn't matter if they're alive or dead, you know, or what year
(53:04):
it was. It'd be, it can be a prequel, it
can be one right in the middle, or it can be a season, you know,
showing what happened after the show concluded.
Can it be something I'm in or itneeds to be something I've?
Watched it can be anything. Yet I really want another season
of the show called Jet that I did I we did it for HBOI play a
criminal. It was an incredible cast and
(53:27):
there's just so much more of that story to tell.
So, and I don't say that as you have, as you've gleaned from
from all the things that I've done.
So that one I really feel that way about in terms of well, I
and I can never get enough Babylon Berlin.
So you give me a prequel or a sequel, I'll take it.
(53:49):
I've got to watch it. I'm a fan of Jet.
Do you think it's ever possible that it could, you know, with
the, the way you know, the current climate of, of
television that you could get another season of Jet?
You know, actually, probably nowmore than ever in the sense that
that things are refound and resurrected.
And the truth of the matter is there's an entire second season
of that show written and it was it was always going to happen.
(54:11):
But Cinemax, which is where we, you know, originally made it,
you being a fan, you would mightknow that and HBO owned Cinemax.
Cinemax just disappeared. So, you know, sort of like the
Knick, Steven Soderbergh show that was on.
It's like the all of these things that sort of had this,
this home and and the Knick I think had had maybe had come to
a close by then. But so, so it was literally that
(54:32):
the network disappeared. So whether there's an
incarnation in which we can makeit again there or somewhere
else, you know, it could happen.It could happen.
So we'll see all. Right.
What would Verna's favorite showbe?
Oh wow, Verna, I feel like wouldactually be like Verna would,
would want to watch a just a straight up comedy.
(54:56):
I, I feel or, or, or, or Verna might be into like Friday Night
Lights. Verna, you know, might be, might
sort of, sort of be into this quaint small town that this sort
of like she's seen enough of, you know, the Roman times and,
and everything else. So maybe, maybe I'd go back to
(55:16):
a, you know, that's another, I mean, Friday Night Lights is
just, I think such an extraordinary show that I could
see more of as well. It would be something people
say. Wait, Verna, you watch this
this. Exactly.
That's she. You would definitely be
something that would surprise you.
Verna wouldn't watch what you'd think Verna would watch, you
know? Yeah.
She's very unpredictable. Exactly.
(55:37):
And the final one, if you can live in one TV show, you can.
So you can pop in whenever you want.
You don't think abandoned your life.
You have a door you can walk in and just be in this world and
walk around it. And then and you know, it could
be because it's terrifying. It could be because be, you
know, a wonderful place to be orwhatever it is, you know, like,
you know, hanging out with the, the, the Cleaver family.
(55:58):
Which she it would be, you know,what's funny is I think I don't
know if I can pick one for me right this moment in time, but
for much of my life, it would have been friends for much of my
younger life specifically, it just would have been I, I, I,
you know, and I, I know that I, I don't know why that show
(56:19):
connected throughout the entire world and for generation after
generation and still people are just obsessed with it.
But that would be a show that that for many years, anytime I
felt just a little off or down or anything, I'm just like, I
just want to watch an episode offriends.
Like there was just something that felt so good about it.
So I think if I could have entered that world and, and, and
(56:42):
hung out with those guys and I, I would have come back to my
life feeling pretty refreshed and.
There's something magic with that show because that that
answer has been given several times and I'm like, I don't
understand it. I mean, I, I do understand it,
but it's amazing that that's what people go to.
I know, I know. And, and, and I, I'm even
surprising myself that I'm saying that right now.
(57:02):
I'm sure that there's a sort of something that's more in keeping
with my aesthetic or something, but that one just, yeah, it's
funny. Well don't worry, if this ever
happens and you that door ever appears I'll I'll make sure
there's a die on what you can choose.
Hey, thank you. I appreciate it and I'll just
get what I, you know, I don't want to like have to live with
this answer forever. So thank you so much for your
(57:26):
time here today and your performance and, and all the
work you do, you know, from spincity on and I hope that someday
I hear the news that we have jetseason 2 coming because I know
it'll make you happy and, and many fans happy.
Thank you so much, so wonderful talking with you.
Have a beautiful. Day.
Thank you, thank you, thank you as well.
Bye, bye. Now.
Be sure to watch Carla's work onNetflix's The Fall of the House
(57:50):
of Usher, as well as close to a half dozen other Mike Flanagan
projects and so much more. A shout out to Emily AU for our
funky theme song and also to ourannouncer Kari Loya.
You can find him at kariloyavo.com.
It's in our profile. You can follow me directly on
Twitter, Letterbox and Instagram, all at Film Store.
As usual, thanks for listening and stay tuned for more TV
(58:13):
topics. TV Topics is produced by Stephen
Przukowski, ZAP.
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