June 13, 2024 • 44 mins
This week, we are turning once again to the wild world of the romantic, and looking at first dates that went horribly horribly wrong. It’s very dangerous, it seems, to be a person trying to date! These tales of horror from the dating world include a suspicious accident on the freeway, two dates who were terrifyingly uncaring, and a date that would be the chilling end for a young tourist. Be careful in your next forays in the dating world, twisted listeners - you never know who may be out there!
Cases Covered:
1. Grace Millane
2. Orlando Boldewijn
Check out our website! www.twistedlisterspod.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/twistedlisters
Follow us on Instagram: @twistedlisterspcast
Tiktok: @twistedlisters
Outro Music by Lady X/Y
Sources:
https://nltimes.nl/2024/03/19/suspect-convicted-teen-dates-drowning-sees-jail-time-slashed-10-weeks-appeal
https://news.sky.com/story/grace-millane-what-happened-in-the-last-hours-of-british-backpackers-life-11866557
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Grace_Millane
Cases Covered:
1. Grace Millane
2. Orlando Boldewijn
Check out our website! www.twistedlisterspod.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/twistedlisters
Follow us on Instagram: @twistedlisterspcast
Tiktok: @twistedlisters
Outro Music by Lady X/Y
Sources:
https://nltimes.nl/2024/03/19/suspect-convicted-teen-dates-drowning-sees-jail-time-slashed-10-weeks-appeal
https://news.sky.com/story/grace-millane-what-happened-in-the-last-hours-of-british-backpackers-life-11866557
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Grace_Millane
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Haye Twisted Listeners. I'm Cindy andI'm David and this is Twisted Listeners,
a podcast about murder and listen.And this is part two of the take
(00:37):
two of Murdered on the First Date, Murdered on a First Date. I
chose this because I don't know,there's so many, like we're gonna repeat
lists many, there's so many goodones, including new ones that happened since
we recorded the first list. Yes, yes, exactly, you did what
or you did? Are both ofyours new? New new? Yeah?
(01:00):
Yeah, the one I'm doing todayis newish, but it was definitely around,
like we could have chosen it thefirst time and just didn't. Yeah,
my first one that was like recent. Yeah, yeah, it's like
brand new ago. Yeah, anynews, anything to talk about. I
feel like I had something to say, but I can't remember. I don't
(01:22):
know. I got a kitty onme, So that's a good. Happy
to report that my dog's in here, like going wild pear Twisted Listener,
Twisted Pets or whatever they're called.Yeah, oh cool, he just got
my shirt to chew, thanks dude, Orris, No, hey, no,
(01:42):
you know better. I like thatshirtar I'd kind of let him do
it. He doesn't put holes init, He just makes it like really
gross. He like swabbers all overit. And then if he gets too
in du it, he starts likecrying while he's chewing. It's really I
wonder what traumas he had before hecame to us, I know, but
super cute anyway, all right,let's let's get into this. Who goes
(02:05):
for it? I have no ideafirst, okay, because you went first
last time. Because I chose thetopic. I know how this works.
Cool, all right that someone does. Yeah, let me get my notes
up. Well, I know whichcase you're doing. Yeah it's a case.
(02:27):
Yeah, yeah, all right,So I'm really glad we didn't have
an accidental Oh really, it's okay. I'm so bad guys. So you
guys, we have a top tenlist and we Diva compiles the list and
then we highlight or pick the onesthat we want to do. And I'm
for a long time I would doit like on my phone and it wouldn't
(02:47):
take and I'd be like, whatthe fuck? Why didn't they do it?
But I'm also just really bad aboutit, to be totally honest,
So sometimes I just forget so I'mglad that it hasn't happened yet, although
I think it once, but welike figured it out. I don't know.
In any case I am doing andDiva's not doing the case of the
(03:07):
murder of Grace Mulane. Now thisis a fucked up ass case. And
the weirdest thing is that Grace EmmyRose Mullane was murdered on her twenty second
birthday, so pretty pretty weird.I actually thought about doing a list of
(03:28):
people who were murdered on on theirbirthday. I'm sure it's weirdly common.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, They'rehard to find because it's not something that
people really, I guess, likecategorize murders by. But I know we
have found a few, and thisthis is one of them. So we're
pioneering in list ideas. So yeah, yeah, we're the first. We
(03:51):
have done some that I don't haveanybody else is thought to do. So
yeah, no us, yeah,yes, so anyway, okay. Grace
was a twenty one slash twenty twoyear old British tourist. She was doing
like a a not around the world, but she was doing like a couple
of months travel. She went travelingby herself. I don't know if she
(04:16):
had graduated college or what the dealwas, but I think this was kind
of like her. I think sheactually did, Yeah, she graduated university,
and this was her sort of likeI'm gonna go do this thing,
have a great experience, and thensettle in, get a job, pardon
me, like, you know,become an adult sort of. So this
(04:36):
was sort of her last hurrah.But it was also in one way it
was like her last hurrah quote unquotethat she was like having to start getting
into the real world. Now weall know in our twenties, even if
you have like a quote unquote career, you're still going to party your face
off and be ridiculous. But yes, so this was also in a lot
of ways the start of her life, which makes it really unfortunate. You
(05:00):
know, she was murdered. Soanyway, she goes to Peru, she's
traveling around, and she ends upshe's in with America for six weeks,
and then she goes to New Zealandfor two weeks. And this is in
twenty eighteen, So she ends upin New Zealand on November twentieth, twenty
eighteen. She's, you know,in the Upper North Island. I'm not
(05:26):
really sure. I don't know NewZealand or artier Roa, I guess is
what we should probably call it,artier Roa. Yes, I don't know
it very well. I do knowthat November thirtieth she arrived in Auckland,
New Zealand, which is I believethe capital. There's Wellington? Is it?
(05:46):
Is it? Wait? Capital?Wellington? Oh? Capital? This
is just like a large city.It's just a big city. I don't
think I think you're right. Iwant to see if I'm right. No,
I want to see if I'm right. I know that. Oh no,
it is information, oh right,right, right. So she ends
up in Auckland, which is notthe capital, but is like for fucking
(06:08):
idiot Americans who don't know shit aboutgeography right here, it's like the most
well known city. You know,everybody talks about Auckland, New Zealand because
it's a metropolitan city. And sheis having a great time and she's out
on Tinder looking around for a date, which like hell, yeah, dude,
(06:29):
you're younger, You're in a city, a cool city, like why
not you know, have a goodtime? Can you hear my dog?
He's literally like doing donuts on thebed, trying to chew. My dog
can't reach his own butthole. I'msorry to like so abruptly and weirdly change
the subject. But he cannot reachto lick and he's trying, and it's
(06:51):
inane here two year they go,Buddy, I just gave him his own
hoodie to chew. I can't sailhim as too chonky to lick her butt,
so I have to wipe her buttlike a baby. Yeah, I
wipe his butt, I like,give it like a towel, bitch.
Yeah, I mean, I can'timagine. That would be horrible to not
be able to clean your own ass. So I would want somebody. And
(07:13):
if I get old and cannot cleanmy own ass, I hope somebody will
clean it for me. And soI'm you know, doing my job now,
hoping it gets paid forward later orpaid back, I guess. Anyway,
So she's in Auckland in New Zealand, going and she's on Tinder and
she decides to you know, meetsomebody and go on a date. Now
(07:34):
it's interesting because she sorry not sheIn this case, the courts in New
Zealand they don't release the names ofthe like accused and they do this to
protect them so that they can geta fair trial. However, she was
from the UK, so there wasa lot of interest in this case from
(07:55):
the UK, and Google somehow gotthe information about this guy's identity and it
was shared with the world and NewZealand courts were really pissed about it,
but you know, everybody else islike, we don't fucking care. We
want to know who this motherfucker is. So the name of Grace's. The
man that Grace met was Jesse Kempson. He's twenty six years old and he
(08:16):
had lived in Artieroa. I thinkhis whole life he was kind of a
piece of shit. I guess hisparents divorced when he was young, and
you know, he lived I thinkwith his mother and he was really fucked
up from that. He has drunkHe had drunk driving on his record.
(08:37):
He had other violent crimes. Ithink he'd done some time, not a
lot, but you know, hehad like a laundry list of issues,
you know, and things that hehad done. So and I'll get I'll
get into that a little bit later, kind of the specifics of what he
(09:00):
did. But in any case,they meet on Tinder, and she thinks
he's cute and they go out ona date. Now this is on December
first, I believe, twenty eighteen, and later it's found because there's CCTV
is like a big thing in countries, in not our country, but in
(09:20):
other countries, a lot of publicspaces, private spaces have close circuit television,
which you know, in America it'sa violation of our rights and I
kind of believe that, but inother, you know, countries, it's
actually really helpful for you know,finding murderers. So you know, yeah,
whatever you think about it, itcertainly comes in handy in this case.
(09:43):
Yeah. Yeah. So essentially isthe high level what happened is Grace
goes out to meet this guy.She's having a great time. Around nine
pm, she texts one of herfriends and who she had been telling like,
Oh, I'm going on a date. I met this guy, he's
cute whatever. And she her friendlike, oh, we're getting along really
well. I feel like so goodwith this guy. That's the last text
(10:05):
she sends anybody right now. Priorto that, she'd sent a picture of
like a Christmas tree to her mombecause you know, it's around Christmas time,
and she's staying in touch with herfamily regularly, like daily. So
she texts that to her friend andthen the next day nobody can find her.
Nobody you can get a hold ofher. She's not returning calls,
texts, nothing. So her familyand friends located in the UK call the
(10:31):
New Zealand authorities and they're like,hey, help us out. And so
the authorities start looking into this.You know, she's not back at her
hotel. They do take it reallyseriously, you know, they're like,
she is a single female tourist,went missing last scene with a man on
a date, you know. Sothey're very very much like taking it seriously,
(10:56):
and they start looking into like hersocial media, her texts, and
one thing that they find very quicklyis a brand new comment on her Facebook
profile picture made by a man namedJesse Kempson and he says like beautiful and
stunning. I forget exactly what didhe say, let me see beautiful,
(11:18):
very radiant. He put it underher profile picture and this is how he
was identified as a person of interestor like that's crazy, yeah, because
they don't know they don't have herphone, so they don't know who her
trainer. Date was like, theyhave no way of knowing who this man
was without outside of anything that shetold her friends, which was not his
(11:39):
name. They don't have a pictureof him, Like, they don't know
who he is. So they findthis comment left the night she disappeared,
and they're like, all right,let's follow this lead. So they hit
up Jesse Kempson and so they spoketo him the next morning after she went
missing, and he said, youknow, we met up and we parted
(12:01):
ways at ten pm on Saturday.That's the last time I saw her.
So the detectives are like, wedon't we don't really believe you. They
don't have the CCTV footag yet,which I'll get into in a minute.
But they called him again to makeanother meeting and he's like, yeah,
I'll come in and make a formalstatement later. And then they found him
at the City Life Hotel, whichis I believe the last place that she
(12:22):
had been seen, and so detectivesare already like what the fuck, Like,
this is a person of interest.He's at the hotel where she was
last seen. As far as weknow, we got to bring him in.
So now they're like very suspicious ofhim, so they actually ran after
him, like chased him down theroad. Now they didn't he like knew
(12:46):
they were chasing him in and likegave chase. But I think it was
more one of those things where theysaw him walk by and were like what
the fuck. So they want himdown. They bring him in for questioning.
He again says, you know,we left her at I left her
at ten o'clock, like we youknow, parted ways. It was a
great night whatever. While they're holdinghim for this quote unquote questioning, they
acquire the CCTV from the hotel andthat shows that he and Grace went into
(13:11):
his hotel room together and only heever came out. So now they're like,
all right, dude, what thefuck? And he breaks and he
admits to killing her. And whathe says is that he accidentally choked her
to death during rough sex, andrather than call for help, he freaked
(13:31):
out and disposed of her body.And it's like copy paste been used multiple
times, right, like multiple caseswe've discussed. Yes, Now the situation
here is a little bit different because, as it turns out, so police
start looking at the CCTV footage,I'm not quite sure how I want to
do this, but we'll just gowith the CCTV footage, okay. And
(13:54):
what they find is that this guy, Jesse Kempson, went out to a
bar about thirty minutes before meeting upwith Grace, and in those thirty minutes
he pounded four beers. So he'salready got on pretty hot. It's weird.
Yeah. They then meet up atlike either a restaurant or a coffee
(14:15):
shop and they get food and moredrinks. They then go to a second
location both willingly and get more drinks, and the CCTV footage shows that they're
both having a great time. LikeGrace is smiling, she's happy, she's
stoked, she's into him, right. You can see the camera stills of
them walking together and they look likejust two people having a really good date,
having a really good date. Yes. And then the third stop,
(14:39):
he takes her back to the barwhere he was prior to meeting with her,
and they get more drinks. Nowaround nine drinks. It's a lot
of drinks for him, especially becausehe's ahead of her. Bife started early.
Yeah, yeah, he dead soaround nine thirty, it's when she
texts her friend. Their CCTV footageof them kissing, of them like just
having a great time. She's liketalking excitedly, like they're just everything's going
(15:03):
really really great. Right. Thenit shows them both leaving to go to
his hotel where they got into thelift as they call it, and went
up to his room. Now afterthat, it shows him excuse me,
Okay, I'm gonna stop here andI'm going to kind of change direction here.
(15:28):
The police found soon after, youknow, nine point thirty, they
go to his room. They don'tknow what happened after that exactly. They
do know that Grace was strangled todeath. There was blood in the room,
and she had bruises all over herchest and arms that showed that she
had been pinned down. There wasno call to emergency services. However,
(15:52):
at one thirty am on December second, which would have been her twenty second
birthday, he starts googling, uh, hottest fire Why Takiri Ranges, which
is where he later did bury herbody. He then from there Diva,
he went on to porn hub andwatched some porn while her dead body was
(16:18):
in the room. He's book sevenquote unquote intimate photos of her dead body,
and he moved her body around,posed it how he wanted it,
and took photos of her. Thisguy said Bundy asked yes the morning high
level of gross fucking insane. Thenext morning, he texts another woman he
(16:41):
met on Tinder and goes on adate with her. But before he goes
on a date, back to theCCTV footage, he's seen leaving his room
and going to buy a suitcase.Mm hmmm, he'd be scary if you
were that woman who went on theother date with him. And we'll talk
about her. Found that out later, Okay, yeah, we'll talk about
her. He then goes to aleisure store to buy a second suitcase,
(17:07):
then to a supermarket to buy abunch of cleaning products, and then he
goes and he rents a car.He then goes and gets a rug doctor.
He rents a Toyota hatchbag, goesand gets a rug doctor, and
then goes and meets up with thiswoman that he texted. The woman who's
twenty seven, chose not to benamed, but she did do an interview.
(17:32):
She said that soon after they met, he told her all of his
friends are police officers and his closestfriend was coming to New Zealand. To
become a Crown prosecutor. Also,he also said things like, quote,
it's crazy how guys can make onewrong move and go to jail for the
rest of their life. He thentalked about how U huh he heard about
(17:52):
a guy who asked his girlfriend tohave sex and accidentally killed her during the
process, which is great station.Yeah. Yes, She later said,
I think he was in his ownworld telling this story. I think I
just felt a bit uncomfortable. Ichanged the topic to traveling in the South
Island prosecutors later said that they thoughthe was trying out this story to see
(18:15):
how it would fly, as youknow, yeah, like, how is
it going to land with the courtsto be like, oh, it was
rough sex and I accidentally killed her. When she left the bar, she
said she was so unnerved by thisdate that she didn't walk directly to her
car because she didn't want him tosee her car or have access to her.
(18:36):
He also texted her later for anotherdate, and she said, no,
that's smart that she like thought wasthinking that ahead. Yeah right right.
I mean she's a journalist, she'sprobably read. Yeah, he searched
some shit. So he gets backto his from around six PM on the
second, and so now he's gotto clean up the dead body, right,
(19:00):
so he gets the rug doctor,he cleans the carpet, he tells
the company, oh, I'm rentingit, or like he probably got at
the grocery store. That's where youget them, weirdly, and he probably
told he told them, mo,it's for a wine stain. He then
got a trolley like one of thoselike cart movers from the hotel reception.
And I don't even know why hewas in a hotel. I guess he
was also traveling. But in anycase, he puts her body in the
(19:22):
suitcase, puts it onto the trolley, uses the cleaner, and then takes
the suitcase out. He's seen thefollowing morning, so December third, around
six am, driving off in hiscar, stopping to buy a shovel and
uh, and then he goes outand buries her in a shallow grave.
(19:42):
So it actually took a couple ofdays for her to be reported missing by
her parents, because you know,she's traveling, maybe ex y is going
on. I don't have her fullitinerary, maybe right, they gave her
a day or two and then yeah, So so anyway, that's that's essentially
what happened. What later comes out. So he gets arrested, obviously admits
(20:06):
to murdering her, says it wasa mistake, blah blah, blah blah
blah, goes to trial. Duringhis trial, you know, his identity
was supposed to be hidden, butvery luckily it wasn't because another woman saw
him on the news and was like, that man raped me nine months ago
ago. Horrible. Yes, Soshe comes forward and talks about how they
(20:30):
went on a date. They meton Tinder, and she refused to have
sex with him, and he heldher down and raped her in a motel
room. So yeah, she wasalso a tourists got an he's like a
serial offender, and he was escalatingbecause there are other instances of him doing
(20:52):
this. And he also had likeother women come forward and say that he
was really into rough sex. Andthis woman said, you know, every
time I went to sleep, i'dsee your eyes popping out of your head
staring at me in anger. Islike what she said to him during like
a victim impacts statement. Oh wow. Another woman who he communicated with on
the internet came forward and said thathe talked to her about having rough sex
(21:15):
and that he liked it because itmade him feel more superior and in control.
Okay, also mm hmmm. Healso went to trial later and was
convicted of terrorizing his living girlfriend overa period of months, subjecting her to
violent assaults, threatening her with abutcher a butcher's knife, and forcing her
into humiliating sex acts after telling herhe'd been sent by the CIA to kill
(21:40):
her. So this man is fuckingderanged. Yeah, he's deranged, like
headed on a Ted Bundy journey,is what he's doing. Yes, he's
escalating every single time. And thecrazy thing is he's then convicted of all
three different things, the rape,the murder, and terrorizing his girlfriend.
For the murder he's given seventeen yearsbecause it's New Zealand, and for the
(22:03):
rape and the terrorizing he's given elevenyears each and they're all served concurrently,
so it's like seventeen years total ishow long he's going to be in there.
And when the judge sentences him,he says to the judge and this
is the most terrifying thing, like, I cannot believe this man's going to
be out in his mid forties.He says, you have no reason to
(22:26):
convict me. You're full of shit, mate, Like you stay up admitted
to murdering this girl. This isn'ta guy who could ever admit he's wrong
or like say I'm sorry for terrorizingwomen. Yeah, and this motherfucker is
going to jail for seventeen years andthat's it. Hmm. Yeah, so
(22:49):
yeah, I mean, I likeninety nine percent of the time countries that
are, you know, more lenientwith sentencing. And then there's really special
dudes like this where I'm like,oh, think you could like just make
a special throw away the key lockof because what's gonna happen is he's gonna
go out in seventeen years and inseventeen years and one day he's gonna kill
somebody. Oh yeah, yeah,definitely, you know, definitely don't you
(23:15):
should make an exception for guys likethis. For sure agreed the fact that
he's like, I did nothing wrong, Like, bro, what the fuck's
scary? Yeah. He was alsodescribed as like a sociopath. Yeah,
so you know, it's not notgood. No, this is all all
bad. This is all bad.But anyway, Yeah, so that's wown
(23:37):
good story, very fucking sad.She was just trying to live her life
and have like a really beautiful experiencebefore like you know, quote unquote becoming
an adult. And it's just sofucked up. And I let them on
business trips alone. I love travelingalone, like there's no reason why it
should be. There's a reason youshouldn't be able to Yeah, exactly,
yep. Oh yeah, yo sucks. All right, Yeah, it's fucked
(24:03):
up. All right. Oh ohmy god, my dog is being so
loud. Can you hear him?I'm so no, my baby's being I
can't believe you can't hear my baby. No. Our MIC's are doing their
jobs. Job, okay, yeah, okay, anyway, all right,
what's yours. We're also going toanother country. And also in twenty eighteen,
there's myalie in to talk about thecase of Orlando bold Vine, and
(24:29):
I'm talking about him because it's Dutch, you know, I you know,
I like the Dutch stuff of aDutch experience there, and because I thought
it was super similar to the oneyou did in the first episode, So
I like the talie in there.Jenifer Saint Clair So Orlando bold Ofvine was
seventeen years old and from Rotterdam inthe Netherlands. Obviously he attended He attended
(24:56):
the Wolfert von Borsela School, whichis like a nice high school, I
think, some kind. And heworked at the albert Heine, which is
my my Dutch listeners know or peoplewho've been to the other wants to know,
that's the grocery store. And Ilove it deeply, so great affection
for this grocery store, the albertHeine. It's a name, albert Heine.
(25:19):
I think you were telling me aboutthese when I was talking about Aldie,
and you were like, this isso much better than Aldie, Like
why aren't these coming to America?Why is oh yeah, yeah yeah,
all these weak? No. Albertawas like incredible. So anyway, on
his Facebook, you can see Orlando'syou know, just photos of him being
kind of a high school kid,having a really fun time with his friends,
(25:45):
just generally being kind of a funguy. And like, you know,
it takes like two pictures back intime and it's like, oh,
he's like a child. You know, he's very young looking in all the
pictures and he was he's seventeen,right, he has a child. So
Orlando was I don't want to makejudgment some his sexuality queer bye whatever.
(26:07):
But he was exploring his sexuality withdating around on dating apps, and unfortunately
he met a man named Roy Bon Grinder, which is a kind of
tender for gay folks for uh yeah, And he met a thirty three year
old man named only in the pressis Roy B. And I already don't
(26:29):
like him because, I mean,being thirty three and like, meeting up
with teenagers isn't a great look.Yeah for you, not at all.
No, it's alretty weird. Butyou know, he essentially meets up with
Roy for a casual hookup of somekind or date or whatever, you won't
(26:52):
call it. Uh. And theygo to Roy's house boat in Epenberg.
I love house, but shout outto house boats. I know a little
healthy. Yeah, never been toEdinburgh, but it's a very canal based
neighborhood suburb of the Hague, onthe outside outside of the Hague. On
short train ride away from from Rotterdamshop on the train. Got it on
(27:17):
February eighteenth, twenty eighteen. Hepicked up Orlando in his in a boat
presumably I love I love to seethe sea based nature of this in a
boat, although it's horrible stunt.My fucking cat out. She is gonna
get really noice. I had noproblem. Oh my god, lose it
(27:38):
on my dog right here. Heis just going abe shit, Oh my
god, hew me, are youfucker? I wish people could see you.
You're so cute. The cutest animalsmake recording podcasts so difficult. You
guys, like, my dog ischill and likes to sleep unless I'm recording,
and then he's like just so fullof energy and wants to like destroy
(28:02):
Why does my dog want to destroyblankets? Does anybody else have a dog
that likes to like rip apart blankets? It's super fucking weird to me.
Good lord, Boris, come onmany, I'll post some pictures of him
on the Instagram because he's stupid cute, but he's also kind of stupid.
All right, here comes Diva.Hi. I talked about Boris. Oh
(28:26):
no, my baby was fussy,so I had to weigh in on the
situation as well. Get this boynapping everyone, Okay, all right,
okay, back to the canals ofEpenburg where Roy Yeah, I took Orlando
to his houseboat. They had aquote unquote date or whatever that lasted for
(28:47):
several hours. Some sources allege thatthis was paid and this was coming down
of sex work, but Orlando's familyand everyone else like, no, I
don't where you're getting that from.USh just grinder, right, right,
So it's sort of interesting that thatis to kind of take that and run
with it. And I also gotthe sense, and I think, I
think I know this that the Dutchpress is very like tabloidy to some of
(29:08):
the Dutch articles I was reading werelike a little bit like trying to make
it more salacious and in weird directions, right so, and of course because
there's a queer gay element, they'regonna do that, which is unfortunate.
So we don't know too much aboutyou know, their night together or about
(29:30):
Roy frankly at all. But RoyB had been using drugs. It's reported.
It's unclear which drugs or if Orlandowas partaking as well, but just
something to keep in mind. It'skind of shocking in my opinion, also
for a high school kid to bekind of like using a dating app like
this and like out on dates witholdermen, or maybe it's pretty normal now
(29:52):
that they do this. I don'tknow, Yeah, I think it is.
Also I'm wondering if it's poppers thatthey were using it. Say,
so, let's say that that's justa really popular drug within the gay community,
and it's used oftentimes when people arelike hooking up. Who knows.
Yeah, definitely possible. Yeah.So he also told his mom that he
(30:17):
was out with a friend that nightas a cover I mean something. I
definitely did you tell your your momthat you're doing something very mundane and you
actually got to do something else.It's like very classic, right, do
something soon? Crazy. Yeah.So the story comes to light when Orlando
was reported missing after his date.I'm not sure who exactly reported him missing,
but basically in the days that followed, people are freaked out because he's
(30:41):
not one to ever miss work orschool. So his coworkers slash, you
know, peers immediately. I'm surehis parents immediately raise alarm bells, and
search parties were organized, just dredgethe canals to search, you know,
search the area he's It's a huge, huge story that he's missing. And
then some sources of say nine eightor nine days after the state Orlando's body
(31:07):
was found in the water of thecanal in Eppenburg and his cause of death
was drowning real most interesting. Soit's February in the Netherlands, so the
water was fucking freezing, so keepthat in mind. So now you're not
going first whim. It is icecold, borderline like ice. His body
(31:33):
was found only sixteen meters away fromthe houseboat, so pretty close. Yeah,
and the water was just three metersso it was about ten feet deep.
Big deep enough he could drown forsure. Roy b was arrested and
his official story was that he droppedOrlando off after their date and he returned
(31:57):
to shore and he doesn't know whathappened to him after that, kind of
implying that he maybe fell in mayberight. But this story was seemingly complicated
or contradicted by the fact that Orlandoactually they found Orlando's off a chip cart.
I'm using Mike Peppering and my Dutchknowledge here in the boat and your
(32:20):
chip cart in the Netherlands is alittle handy dandy card that gets you into
all the public transit and trains.If you beat, you beat yourself in.
Yeah it so if he was goinghome, that's really weird that he
wouldn't have his his train card.Very suspiciously. Roy's story also changed and
contradicted himself, and in one laterversion of events, he was basically said
(32:47):
he panicked. He saw Orlando,like I don't know, fall or whatever
into the water and just panicked ashe started to drown, and just watched
him drown and didn't do anything,didn't try to help, didn't dive into
the water, and just panitan froze. That's that's what the story becomes.
It's also not good. That's exactlywhat happened. That's yeah. If that's
(33:12):
the best case scenario, that's prettyfucking bad. Pretty bad. Yeah.
So also very damning in my opinion, and very suspicious is number one,
the fact that he didn't say anythingafterwards. He doesn't raise alarm bells when
this is, you know, Orlantadisappearance is big news, the searchers are
underway. He doesn't say a goddamnthings like Number two. Even more suspicious
(33:37):
is in a statement Orlando's mom gave, she described how texts were sent from
Orlando's phone I saw that night orlike later that night that were inconsistent with
how he usually spoke and how heusually texted people. So basically, Roy
was probably using his phone to textpeople to make people believe that Orlando was
alive at that time of night orleft the date or whatever it was.
(34:00):
So it's like, do you're notjust you know, neglectful whatever, you're
also actively covering this up and likemisleading police, right, what the fuck?
Yeah, And another story said itwasn't that night, it was the
day after that. He's sending textsfrom his phone, which is like ridiculous,
that's insane. So at the trial, I know where this is going,
(34:24):
and I'm so annoyed, like already, yeah, you know, at
the trial, roy b invoked hisright to remain silent. His lawyer will
give a statement later, but notduring the trial. He says nothing.
In twenty twenty, after some COVIDrelated delays, the Public Prosecution Service officially
(34:45):
recommended a three and a half yearsentence, and after finding him guilty for
essentially just not calling one one two, which is the yeah, yes,
it's it's their emergency number, andthe official finding specified you know, it
did say like it's really bad thatyou didn't call emergency services, and essentially
(35:07):
did is equivalent to some kind oflike minor assault or something. But it's
agreeing with his story. His versionof things that he just washed him drown
and didn't get help, which frankly, I feel like should come with a
bigger punishment, Like even if thatis what happened, that's really bad.
You have to make an effort tohelp someone. I feel like that's I
(35:29):
know, that's law here. Ifyou're watching someone die or be assaulted,
you have to make an effort,like right legally, and there's and there's
for example, those cases I covereda long and long ago of like hazing
where people someone's dying of alcohol poisoningand the rap voice is satron didn't help
(35:49):
him. That's like murder. Yeah, like call it's negligent homicide, right,
isn't that what it would be called? Yes? Yeah, a negligent
homside something like that. Yeah.Yeah. So after so, despite this
being a very light sentence by allaccounts, he appealed it and gave a
(36:09):
statement saying he disagreed with the verdict. That's his only statement to date,
through his lawyer. And wouldn't youbelieve with Cindy that appeal was successful.
He was re sentenced to only tenweeks. Seriously, yep, really shitty.
(36:30):
H And after the verdict, Iguess the redoing of the verdict.
The judge addressed the Orlando's family,who were apparently crying and screaming and freaking
out in the courtroom, obviously veryunhappy with this choice. Yeah, and
I really disliked the way the judgeput it. He said, quote,
I can imagine this is a bitterpill to swallow for you, but we
(36:52):
have to look at the facts,and we had no other option than this
ruling. Yeah, you did.You could have not overturned the sentence that
was original three years. Obviously theyfound differently than you. Yep. So
he was released, this guy,and obviously, and he was actually arrested
(37:12):
as far as I can tell,in early twenty twenty four on suspicion of
grooming a young a young boy minor. Oh, I bet they'll give him
a hearty five week sentence for thatone. Really, as of March,
she was on conditional release from detentionwhile awaiting his trial for that case.
So clearly this guy's piece of shit. Clearly he's some kind of predator of
(37:36):
younger boys. It's going to escalate, it's gonna get bad. He's obviously
a fucking gonna be a serial killer, and they need to get their heads
out of their asses and prevent that, because I feel like we're going to
be back here in a year talkingabout this guy again. Yeah, it's
definitely possible. I hope not.But a victim's advocate who represents Orlando's mom
gave a statement in the press sayingthat this basically sent him is bullshit,
(38:00):
doesn't do justice to the case quoteunquote. And I like this quote,
he said, he said, quoteas the quart of appeal rightly consider the
extent to which someone can be criminallyblamed does not, in all cases correspond
to the moral reproach that someone ismade. So it's like they're like,
okay, you're being technical, butthere's also the moral question of like this
(38:21):
was so wrong, right, Yeah. An attempt was made to actually change
the legislation in response as well toOrlando's murder or death or what do we
even call it, And this wasan attempt attempt to classify quote unquote failure
(38:42):
to help someone in mortal danger asa crime rather than an offense. So
I think that's like a maybe aDutch equivalent to like felony misdemeanor kind of
thing, you know, like makingit more serious of a crime and therefore
allowing for higher penalties, but itdid not pass. So unsatisfying. Yeah,
again, it's just like with theNew Zealand. It's like, I
(39:05):
really love that you're super light sentencingin ninety nine percent of cases, but
then there's certain times, certain timeswhere you're like, oh God, this
sucks. It's unfortunate, and it'sdefinitely in my opinion. Also, I
wanted to say this case and there'smore people online that agree with me,
and I have said this. I'mnot conventing this idea, but I think
(39:27):
this case, like the one youtalked about Jennifer Saint Clair, you know,
could it could be just a reallydisturbing negligence of like not calling you
know, the emergency services and likethat's horrible. But I actually think this
case is suspicious of more foul playthan just negligent homicide. And maybe it's
(39:49):
for lack of evidence. Maybe it'sfor lack of investigation because he was a
young, queer black man, right, that is the reason they didn't like
go further or dig there and justaccept this guy's story. But to me,
the texting from the phone, thelike, I don't know, it's
just the he could have just pulledhim out of the water, right,
(40:10):
the fact that he's so close,Like, well, it's just like our
guy, My guy could have pulledher out of the road, like yes,
But also if he like strangled himand dumped him in the water,
could they have even Like, Imean, the autopsy results did reveal that
he died from drowning, so weknow that he wasn't killed first, that
that we do know, But likehe could have pushed knocked him unscious,
(40:32):
right, he could have pushed himin. I feel like there's ways that
this could have Yeah, I feellike I'm suspicious of more yeah, in
this case. Yeah, And there'salso a really good article out there about
basically the danger that queer black youthand queer youth more broadly are put in
when they try to explore their sexuality, like doing these sort of dangerous liaisons
(40:54):
and stuff. So I think that'sdefinitely an element to that as well.
Yeah, that's the case of OrlandoBouldavine. Oh my god, that's frecked
up. That's really fucked up.Wow, I mean, at least okay
(41:15):
in mind, like he didn't evenget like any sort of you know,
sentencing or anything you know, Soit's like, you know, I don't
know. No, that sucks.Yeah, that's fucked up. Good lord.
(41:37):
Okay, well anyway, fuck whatare we doing next week? So
I thought about it, and Ihave a two pronged wish. I I
think he'll I think he'll be down. I want to well, I have
a specific niche thing I want tolook for, and then a backup if
if we can't get the niche thing. Okay, number number one I want
(42:00):
to do. Yeah, I wantto do people murdered at World Heritage sites.
Whoa Okay, because one time,one time we found a murdered its
Stonehenge, and so I got reallyexcited about that. And I know what
one other which is a technically aterrorist attack, but I might do it
at the Temple of Chepsit in Luxorso I know, just another more anyway,
(42:29):
So I I really want to dothat, But if I can't find
it, I think we should defaultto just another redux and of people murdered
on vacation because it's seasonal and becausethere's tons of them, so gillion.
Yeah, and it ties into thisweek because we just you just talked about
Grace Maline. Yeah. True,because she was on vacation. She fits
(42:52):
so many categories. It's fucked up, yes, yes, first on vacation
and murdered on our birthday. Terribly, she didn't get any of those categories.
I wish she was alive, enjoyingher twenties and having a wonderful life.
But here we fucking are. Okay, yeah that sounds great. Wait,
(43:13):
what's what was the more big one, the more big version? Oh
vacation Okay, yeah, yeah,yeah, all that because I mean World
Heritage Site, you're probably on vacationif you're visiting them, would be exactly
yeah. If nothing else, I'llinclude one of those in my vacation list.
And also I'm going on kind ofvacation this weekend, so it's relevant,
(43:37):
right, lucky you. Let's getinto the mood. All right,
guys, thanks for listening. Pleaselike review. We'll be back soon with
more and until then, stay offaar I. Let us start up right, akay,
Haye Twisted Listeners. I'm Cindy andI'm David and this is Twisted Listeners,
a podcast about murder and listen.And this is part two of the take
(00:37):
two of Murdered on the First Date, Murdered on a First Date. I
chose this because I don't know,there's so many, like we're gonna repeat
lists many, there's so many goodones, including new ones that happened since
we recorded the first list. Yes, yes, exactly, you did what
or you did? Are both ofyours new? New new? Yeah?
(01:00):
Yeah, the one I'm doing todayis newish, but it was definitely around,
like we could have chosen it thefirst time and just didn't. Yeah,
my first one that was like recent. Yeah, yeah, it's like
brand new ago. Yeah, anynews, anything to talk about. I
feel like I had something to say, but I can't remember. I don't
(01:22):
know. I got a kitty onme, So that's a good. Happy
to report that my dog's in here, like going wild pear Twisted Listener,
Twisted Pets or whatever they're called.Yeah, oh cool, he just got
my shirt to chew, thanks dude, Orris, No, hey, no,
(01:42):
you know better. I like thatshirtar I'd kind of let him do
it. He doesn't put holes init, He just makes it like really
gross. He like swabbers all overit. And then if he gets too
in du it, he starts likecrying while he's chewing. It's really I
wonder what traumas he had before hecame to us, I know, but
super cute anyway, all right,let's let's get into this. Who goes
(02:05):
for it? I have no ideafirst, okay, because you went first
last time. Because I chose thetopic. I know how this works.
Cool, all right that someone does. Yeah, let me get my notes
up. Well, I know whichcase you're doing. Yeah it's a case.
(02:27):
Yeah, yeah, all right,So I'm really glad we didn't have
an accidental Oh really, it's okay. I'm so bad guys. So you
guys, we have a top tenlist and we Diva compiles the list and
then we highlight or pick the onesthat we want to do. And I'm
for a long time I would doit like on my phone and it wouldn't
(02:47):
take and I'd be like, whatthe fuck? Why didn't they do it?
But I'm also just really bad aboutit, to be totally honest,
So sometimes I just forget so I'mglad that it hasn't happened yet, although
I think it once, but welike figured it out. I don't know.
In any case I am doing andDiva's not doing the case of the
(03:07):
murder of Grace Mulane. Now thisis a fucked up ass case. And
the weirdest thing is that Grace EmmyRose Mullane was murdered on her twenty second
birthday, so pretty pretty weird.I actually thought about doing a list of
(03:28):
people who were murdered on on theirbirthday. I'm sure it's weirdly common.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, They'rehard to find because it's not something that
people really, I guess, likecategorize murders by. But I know we
have found a few, and thisthis is one of them. So we're
pioneering in list ideas. So yeah, yeah, we're the first. We
(03:51):
have done some that I don't haveanybody else is thought to do. So
yeah, no us, yeah,yes, so anyway, okay. Grace
was a twenty one slash twenty twoyear old British tourist. She was doing
like a a not around the world, but she was doing like a couple
of months travel. She went travelingby herself. I don't know if she
(04:16):
had graduated college or what the dealwas, but I think this was kind
of like her. I think sheactually did, Yeah, she graduated university,
and this was her sort of likeI'm gonna go do this thing,
have a great experience, and thensettle in, get a job, pardon
me, like, you know,become an adult sort of. So this
(04:36):
was sort of her last hurrah.But it was also in one way it
was like her last hurrah quote unquotethat she was like having to start getting
into the real world. Now weall know in our twenties, even if
you have like a quote unquote career, you're still going to party your face
off and be ridiculous. But yes, so this was also in a lot
of ways the start of her life, which makes it really unfortunate. You
(05:00):
know, she was murdered. Soanyway, she goes to Peru, she's
traveling around, and she ends upshe's in with America for six weeks,
and then she goes to New Zealandfor two weeks. And this is in
twenty eighteen, So she ends upin New Zealand on November twentieth, twenty
eighteen. She's, you know,in the Upper North Island. I'm not
(05:26):
really sure. I don't know NewZealand or artier Roa, I guess is
what we should probably call it,artier Roa. Yes, I don't know
it very well. I do knowthat November thirtieth she arrived in Auckland,
New Zealand, which is I believethe capital. There's Wellington? Is it?
(05:46):
Is it? Wait? Capital?Wellington? Oh? Capital? This
is just like a large city.It's just a big city. I don't
think I think you're right. Iwant to see if I'm right. No,
I want to see if I'm right. I know that. Oh no,
it is information, oh right,right, right. So she ends
up in Auckland, which is notthe capital, but is like for fucking
(06:08):
idiot Americans who don't know shit aboutgeography right here, it's like the most
well known city. You know,everybody talks about Auckland, New Zealand because
it's a metropolitan city. And sheis having a great time and she's out
on Tinder looking around for a date, which like hell, yeah, dude,
(06:29):
you're younger, You're in a city, a cool city, like why
not you know, have a goodtime? Can you hear my dog?
He's literally like doing donuts on thebed, trying to chew. My dog
can't reach his own butthole. I'msorry to like so abruptly and weirdly change
the subject. But he cannot reachto lick and he's trying, and it's
(06:51):
inane here two year they go,Buddy, I just gave him his own
hoodie to chew. I can't sailhim as too chonky to lick her butt,
so I have to wipe her buttlike a baby. Yeah, I
wipe his butt, I like,give it like a towel, bitch.
Yeah, I mean, I can'timagine. That would be horrible to not
be able to clean your own ass. So I would want somebody. And
(07:13):
if I get old and cannot cleanmy own ass, I hope somebody will
clean it for me. And soI'm you know, doing my job now,
hoping it gets paid forward later orpaid back, I guess. Anyway,
So she's in Auckland in New Zealand, going and she's on Tinder and
she decides to you know, meetsomebody and go on a date. Now
(07:34):
it's interesting because she sorry not sheIn this case, the courts in New
Zealand they don't release the names ofthe like accused and they do this to
protect them so that they can geta fair trial. However, she was
from the UK, so there wasa lot of interest in this case from
(07:55):
the UK, and Google somehow gotthe information about this guy's identity and it
was shared with the world and NewZealand courts were really pissed about it,
but you know, everybody else islike, we don't fucking care. We
want to know who this motherfucker is. So the name of Grace's. The
man that Grace met was Jesse Kempson. He's twenty six years old and he
(08:16):
had lived in Artieroa. I thinkhis whole life he was kind of a
piece of shit. I guess hisparents divorced when he was young, and
you know, he lived I thinkwith his mother and he was really fucked
up from that. He has drunkHe had drunk driving on his record.
(08:37):
He had other violent crimes. Ithink he'd done some time, not a
lot, but you know, hehad like a laundry list of issues,
you know, and things that hehad done. So and I'll get I'll
get into that a little bit later, kind of the specifics of what he
(09:00):
did. But in any case,they meet on Tinder, and she thinks
he's cute and they go out ona date. Now this is on December
first, I believe, twenty eighteen, and later it's found because there's CCTV
is like a big thing in countries, in not our country, but in
(09:20):
other countries, a lot of publicspaces, private spaces have close circuit television,
which you know, in America it'sa violation of our rights and I
kind of believe that, but inother, you know, countries, it's
actually really helpful for you know,finding murderers. So you know, yeah,
whatever you think about it, itcertainly comes in handy in this case.
(09:43):
Yeah. Yeah. So essentially isthe high level what happened is Grace
goes out to meet this guy.She's having a great time. Around nine
pm, she texts one of herfriends and who she had been telling like,
Oh, I'm going on a date. I met this guy, he's
cute whatever. And she her friendlike, oh, we're getting along really
well. I feel like so goodwith this guy. That's the last text
(10:05):
she sends anybody right now. Priorto that, she'd sent a picture of
like a Christmas tree to her mombecause you know, it's around Christmas time,
and she's staying in touch with herfamily regularly, like daily. So
she texts that to her friend andthen the next day nobody can find her.
Nobody you can get a hold ofher. She's not returning calls,
texts, nothing. So her familyand friends located in the UK call the
(10:31):
New Zealand authorities and they're like,hey, help us out. And so
the authorities start looking into this.You know, she's not back at her
hotel. They do take it reallyseriously, you know, they're like,
she is a single female tourist,went missing last scene with a man on
a date, you know. Sothey're very very much like taking it seriously,
(10:56):
and they start looking into like hersocial media, her texts, and
one thing that they find very quicklyis a brand new comment on her Facebook
profile picture made by a man namedJesse Kempson and he says like beautiful and
stunning. I forget exactly what didhe say, let me see beautiful,
(11:18):
very radiant. He put it underher profile picture and this is how he
was identified as a person of interestor like that's crazy, yeah, because
they don't know they don't have herphone, so they don't know who her
trainer. Date was like, theyhave no way of knowing who this man
was without outside of anything that shetold her friends, which was not his
(11:39):
name. They don't have a pictureof him, Like, they don't know
who he is. So they findthis comment left the night she disappeared,
and they're like, all right,let's follow this lead. So they hit
up Jesse Kempson and so they spoketo him the next morning after she went
missing, and he said, youknow, we met up and we parted
(12:01):
ways at ten pm on Saturday.That's the last time I saw her.
So the detectives are like, wedon't we don't really believe you. They
don't have the CCTV footag yet,which I'll get into in a minute.
But they called him again to makeanother meeting and he's like, yeah,
I'll come in and make a formalstatement later. And then they found him
at the City Life Hotel, whichis I believe the last place that she
(12:22):
had been seen, and so detectivesare already like what the fuck, Like,
this is a person of interest.He's at the hotel where she was
last seen. As far as weknow, we got to bring him in.
So now they're like very suspicious ofhim, so they actually ran after
him, like chased him down theroad. Now they didn't he like knew
(12:46):
they were chasing him in and likegave chase. But I think it was
more one of those things where theysaw him walk by and were like what
the fuck. So they want himdown. They bring him in for questioning.
He again says, you know,we left her at I left her
at ten o'clock, like we youknow, parted ways. It was a
great night whatever. While they're holdinghim for this quote unquote questioning, they
acquire the CCTV from the hotel andthat shows that he and Grace went into
(13:11):
his hotel room together and only heever came out. So now they're like,
all right, dude, what thefuck? And he breaks and he
admits to killing her. And whathe says is that he accidentally choked her
to death during rough sex, andrather than call for help, he freaked
(13:31):
out and disposed of her body.And it's like copy paste been used multiple
times, right, like multiple caseswe've discussed. Yes, Now the situation
here is a little bit different because, as it turns out, so police
start looking at the CCTV footage,I'm not quite sure how I want to
do this, but we'll just gowith the CCTV footage, okay. And
(13:54):
what they find is that this guy, Jesse Kempson, went out to a
bar about thirty minutes before meeting upwith Grace, and in those thirty minutes
he pounded four beers. So he'salready got on pretty hot. It's weird.
Yeah. They then meet up atlike either a restaurant or a coffee
(14:15):
shop and they get food and moredrinks. They then go to a second
location both willingly and get more drinks, and the CCTV footage shows that they're
both having a great time. LikeGrace is smiling, she's happy, she's
stoked, she's into him, right. You can see the camera stills of
them walking together and they look likejust two people having a really good date,
having a really good date. Yes. And then the third stop,
(14:39):
he takes her back to the barwhere he was prior to meeting with her,
and they get more drinks. Nowaround nine drinks. It's a lot
of drinks for him, especially becausehe's ahead of her. Bife started early.
Yeah, yeah, he dead soaround nine thirty, it's when she
texts her friend. Their CCTV footageof them kissing, of them like just
having a great time. She's liketalking excitedly, like they're just everything's going
(15:03):
really really great. Right. Thenit shows them both leaving to go to
his hotel where they got into thelift as they call it, and went
up to his room. Now afterthat, it shows him excuse me,
Okay, I'm gonna stop here andI'm going to kind of change direction here.
(15:28):
The police found soon after, youknow, nine point thirty, they
go to his room. They don'tknow what happened after that exactly. They
do know that Grace was strangled todeath. There was blood in the room,
and she had bruises all over herchest and arms that showed that she
had been pinned down. There wasno call to emergency services. However,
(15:52):
at one thirty am on December second, which would have been her twenty second
birthday, he starts googling, uh, hottest fire Why Takiri Ranges, which
is where he later did bury herbody. He then from there Diva,
he went on to porn hub andwatched some porn while her dead body was
(16:18):
in the room. He's book sevenquote unquote intimate photos of her dead body,
and he moved her body around,posed it how he wanted it,
and took photos of her. Thisguy said Bundy asked yes the morning high
level of gross fucking insane. Thenext morning, he texts another woman he
(16:41):
met on Tinder and goes on adate with her. But before he goes
on a date, back to theCCTV footage, he's seen leaving his room
and going to buy a suitcase.Mm hmmm, he'd be scary if you
were that woman who went on theother date with him. And we'll talk
about her. Found that out later, Okay, yeah, we'll talk about
her. He then goes to aleisure store to buy a second suitcase,
(17:07):
then to a supermarket to buy abunch of cleaning products, and then he
goes and he rents a car.He then goes and gets a rug doctor.
He rents a Toyota hatchbag, goesand gets a rug doctor, and
then goes and meets up with thiswoman that he texted. The woman who's
twenty seven, chose not to benamed, but she did do an interview.
(17:32):
She said that soon after they met, he told her all of his
friends are police officers and his closestfriend was coming to New Zealand. To
become a Crown prosecutor. Also,he also said things like, quote,
it's crazy how guys can make onewrong move and go to jail for the
rest of their life. He thentalked about how U huh he heard about
(17:52):
a guy who asked his girlfriend tohave sex and accidentally killed her during the
process, which is great station.Yeah. Yes, She later said,
I think he was in his ownworld telling this story. I think I
just felt a bit uncomfortable. Ichanged the topic to traveling in the South
Island prosecutors later said that they thoughthe was trying out this story to see
(18:15):
how it would fly, as youknow, yeah, like, how is
it going to land with the courtsto be like, oh, it was
rough sex and I accidentally killed her. When she left the bar, she
said she was so unnerved by thisdate that she didn't walk directly to her
car because she didn't want him tosee her car or have access to her.
(18:36):
He also texted her later for anotherdate, and she said, no,
that's smart that she like thought wasthinking that ahead. Yeah right right.
I mean she's a journalist, she'sprobably read. Yeah, he searched
some shit. So he gets backto his from around six PM on the
second, and so now he's gotto clean up the dead body, right,
(19:00):
so he gets the rug doctor,he cleans the carpet, he tells
the company, oh, I'm rentingit, or like he probably got at
the grocery store. That's where youget them, weirdly, and he probably
told he told them, mo,it's for a wine stain. He then
got a trolley like one of thoselike cart movers from the hotel reception.
And I don't even know why hewas in a hotel. I guess he
was also traveling. But in anycase, he puts her body in the
(19:22):
suitcase, puts it onto the trolley, uses the cleaner, and then takes
the suitcase out. He's seen thefollowing morning, so December third, around
six am, driving off in hiscar, stopping to buy a shovel and
uh, and then he goes outand buries her in a shallow grave.
(19:42):
So it actually took a couple ofdays for her to be reported missing by
her parents, because you know,she's traveling, maybe ex y is going
on. I don't have her fullitinerary, maybe right, they gave her
a day or two and then yeah, So so anyway, that's that's essentially
what happened. What later comes out. So he gets arrested, obviously admits
(20:06):
to murdering her, says it wasa mistake, blah blah, blah blah
blah, goes to trial. Duringhis trial, you know, his identity
was supposed to be hidden, butvery luckily it wasn't because another woman saw
him on the news and was like, that man raped me nine months ago
ago. Horrible. Yes, Soshe comes forward and talks about how they
(20:30):
went on a date. They meton Tinder, and she refused to have
sex with him, and he heldher down and raped her in a motel
room. So yeah, she wasalso a tourists got an he's like a
serial offender, and he was escalatingbecause there are other instances of him doing
(20:52):
this. And he also had likeother women come forward and say that he
was really into rough sex. Andthis woman said, you know, every
time I went to sleep, i'dsee your eyes popping out of your head
staring at me in anger. Islike what she said to him during like
a victim impacts statement. Oh wow. Another woman who he communicated with on
the internet came forward and said thathe talked to her about having rough sex
(21:15):
and that he liked it because itmade him feel more superior and in control.
Okay, also mm hmmm. Healso went to trial later and was
convicted of terrorizing his living girlfriend overa period of months, subjecting her to
violent assaults, threatening her with abutcher a butcher's knife, and forcing her
into humiliating sex acts after telling herhe'd been sent by the CIA to kill
(21:40):
her. So this man is fuckingderanged. Yeah, he's deranged, like
headed on a Ted Bundy journey,is what he's doing. Yes, he's
escalating every single time. And thecrazy thing is he's then convicted of all
three different things, the rape,the murder, and terrorizing his girlfriend.
For the murder he's given seventeen yearsbecause it's New Zealand, and for the
(22:03):
rape and the terrorizing he's given elevenyears each and they're all served concurrently,
so it's like seventeen years total ishow long he's going to be in there.
And when the judge sentences him,he says to the judge and this
is the most terrifying thing, like, I cannot believe this man's going to
be out in his mid forties.He says, you have no reason to
(22:26):
convict me. You're full of shit, mate, Like you stay up admitted
to murdering this girl. This isn'ta guy who could ever admit he's wrong
or like say I'm sorry for terrorizingwomen. Yeah, and this motherfucker is
going to jail for seventeen years andthat's it. Hmm. Yeah, so
(22:49):
yeah, I mean, I likeninety nine percent of the time countries that
are, you know, more lenientwith sentencing. And then there's really special
dudes like this where I'm like,oh, think you could like just make
a special throw away the key lockof because what's gonna happen is he's gonna
go out in seventeen years and inseventeen years and one day he's gonna kill
somebody. Oh yeah, yeah,definitely, you know, definitely don't you
(23:15):
should make an exception for guys likethis. For sure agreed the fact that
he's like, I did nothing wrong, Like, bro, what the fuck's
scary? Yeah. He was alsodescribed as like a sociopath. Yeah,
so you know, it's not notgood. No, this is all all
bad. This is all bad.But anyway, Yeah, so that's wown
(23:37):
good story, very fucking sad.She was just trying to live her life
and have like a really beautiful experiencebefore like you know, quote unquote becoming
an adult. And it's just sofucked up. And I let them on
business trips alone. I love travelingalone, like there's no reason why it
should be. There's a reason youshouldn't be able to Yeah, exactly,
yep. Oh yeah, yo sucks. All right, Yeah, it's fucked
(24:03):
up. All right. Oh ohmy god, my dog is being so
loud. Can you hear him?I'm so no, my baby's being I
can't believe you can't hear my baby. No. Our MIC's are doing their
jobs. Job, okay, yeah, okay, anyway, all right,
what's yours. We're also going toanother country. And also in twenty eighteen,
there's myalie in to talk about thecase of Orlando bold Vine, and
(24:29):
I'm talking about him because it's Dutch, you know, I you know,
I like the Dutch stuff of aDutch experience there, and because I thought
it was super similar to the oneyou did in the first episode, So
I like the talie in there.Jenifer Saint Clair So Orlando bold Ofvine was
seventeen years old and from Rotterdam inthe Netherlands. Obviously he attended He attended
(24:56):
the Wolfert von Borsela School, whichis like a nice high school, I
think, some kind. And heworked at the albert Heine, which is
my my Dutch listeners know or peoplewho've been to the other wants to know,
that's the grocery store. And Ilove it deeply, so great affection
for this grocery store, the albertHeine. It's a name, albert Heine.
(25:19):
I think you were telling me aboutthese when I was talking about Aldie,
and you were like, this isso much better than Aldie, Like
why aren't these coming to America?Why is oh yeah, yeah yeah,
all these weak? No. Albertawas like incredible. So anyway, on
his Facebook, you can see Orlando'syou know, just photos of him being
kind of a high school kid,having a really fun time with his friends,
(25:45):
just generally being kind of a funguy. And like, you know,
it takes like two pictures back intime and it's like, oh,
he's like a child. You know, he's very young looking in all the
pictures and he was he's seventeen,right, he has a child. So
Orlando was I don't want to makejudgment some his sexuality queer bye whatever.
(26:07):
But he was exploring his sexuality withdating around on dating apps, and unfortunately
he met a man named Roy Bon Grinder, which is a kind of
tender for gay folks for uh yeah, And he met a thirty three year
old man named only in the pressis Roy B. And I already don't
(26:29):
like him because, I mean,being thirty three and like, meeting up
with teenagers isn't a great look.Yeah for you, not at all.
No, it's alretty weird. Butyou know, he essentially meets up with
Roy for a casual hookup of somekind or date or whatever, you won't
(26:52):
call it. Uh. And theygo to Roy's house boat in Epenberg.
I love house, but shout outto house boats. I know a little
healthy. Yeah, never been toEdinburgh, but it's a very canal based
neighborhood suburb of the Hague, onthe outside outside of the Hague. On
short train ride away from from Rotterdamshop on the train. Got it on
(27:17):
February eighteenth, twenty eighteen. Hepicked up Orlando in his in a boat
presumably I love I love to seethe sea based nature of this in a
boat, although it's horrible stunt.My fucking cat out. She is gonna
get really noice. I had noproblem. Oh my god, lose it
(27:38):
on my dog right here. Heis just going abe shit, Oh my
god, hew me, are youfucker? I wish people could see you.
You're so cute. The cutest animalsmake recording podcasts so difficult. You
guys, like, my dog ischill and likes to sleep unless I'm recording,
and then he's like just so fullof energy and wants to like destroy
(28:02):
Why does my dog want to destroyblankets? Does anybody else have a dog
that likes to like rip apart blankets? It's super fucking weird to me.
Good lord, Boris, come onmany, I'll post some pictures of him
on the Instagram because he's stupid cute, but he's also kind of stupid.
All right, here comes Diva.Hi. I talked about Boris. Oh
(28:26):
no, my baby was fussy,so I had to weigh in on the
situation as well. Get this boynapping everyone, Okay, all right,
okay, back to the canals ofEpenburg where Roy Yeah, I took Orlando
to his houseboat. They had aquote unquote date or whatever that lasted for
(28:47):
several hours. Some sources allege thatthis was paid and this was coming down
of sex work, but Orlando's familyand everyone else like, no, I
don't where you're getting that from.USh just grinder, right, right,
So it's sort of interesting that thatis to kind of take that and run
with it. And I also gotthe sense, and I think, I
think I know this that the Dutchpress is very like tabloidy to some of
(29:08):
the Dutch articles I was reading werelike a little bit like trying to make
it more salacious and in weird directions, right so, and of course because
there's a queer gay element, they'regonna do that, which is unfortunate.
So we don't know too much aboutyou know, their night together or about
(29:30):
Roy frankly at all. But RoyB had been using drugs. It's reported.
It's unclear which drugs or if Orlandowas partaking as well, but just
something to keep in mind. It'skind of shocking in my opinion, also
for a high school kid to bekind of like using a dating app like
this and like out on dates witholdermen, or maybe it's pretty normal now
(29:52):
that they do this. I don'tknow, Yeah, I think it is.
Also I'm wondering if it's poppers thatthey were using it. Say,
so, let's say that that's justa really popular drug within the gay community,
and it's used oftentimes when people arelike hooking up. Who knows.
Yeah, definitely possible. Yeah.So he also told his mom that he
(30:17):
was out with a friend that nightas a cover I mean something. I
definitely did you tell your your momthat you're doing something very mundane and you
actually got to do something else.It's like very classic, right, do
something soon? Crazy. Yeah.So the story comes to light when Orlando
was reported missing after his date.I'm not sure who exactly reported him missing,
but basically in the days that followed, people are freaked out because he's
(30:41):
not one to ever miss work orschool. So his coworkers slash, you
know, peers immediately. I'm surehis parents immediately raise alarm bells, and
search parties were organized, just dredgethe canals to search, you know,
search the area he's It's a huge, huge story that he's missing. And
then some sources of say nine eightor nine days after the state Orlando's body
(31:07):
was found in the water of thecanal in Eppenburg and his cause of death
was drowning real most interesting. Soit's February in the Netherlands, so the
water was fucking freezing, so keepthat in mind. So now you're not
going first whim. It is icecold, borderline like ice. His body
(31:33):
was found only sixteen meters away fromthe houseboat, so pretty close. Yeah,
and the water was just three metersso it was about ten feet deep.
Big deep enough he could drown forsure. Roy b was arrested and
his official story was that he droppedOrlando off after their date and he returned
(31:57):
to shore and he doesn't know whathappened to him after that, kind of
implying that he maybe fell in mayberight. But this story was seemingly complicated
or contradicted by the fact that Orlandoactually they found Orlando's off a chip cart.
I'm using Mike Peppering and my Dutchknowledge here in the boat and your
(32:20):
chip cart in the Netherlands is alittle handy dandy card that gets you into
all the public transit and trains.If you beat, you beat yourself in.
Yeah it so if he was goinghome, that's really weird that he
wouldn't have his his train card.Very suspiciously. Roy's story also changed and
contradicted himself, and in one laterversion of events, he was basically said
(32:47):
he panicked. He saw Orlando,like I don't know, fall or whatever
into the water and just panicked ashe started to drown, and just watched
him drown and didn't do anything,didn't try to help, didn't dive into
the water, and just panitan froze. That's that's what the story becomes.
It's also not good. That's exactlywhat happened. That's yeah. If that's
(33:12):
the best case scenario, that's prettyfucking bad. Pretty bad. Yeah.
So also very damning in my opinion, and very suspicious is number one,
the fact that he didn't say anythingafterwards. He doesn't raise alarm bells when
this is, you know, Orlantadisappearance is big news, the searchers are
underway. He doesn't say a goddamnthings like Number two. Even more suspicious
(33:37):
is in a statement Orlando's mom gave, she described how texts were sent from
Orlando's phone I saw that night orlike later that night that were inconsistent with
how he usually spoke and how heusually texted people. So basically, Roy
was probably using his phone to textpeople to make people believe that Orlando was
alive at that time of night orleft the date or whatever it was.
(34:00):
So it's like, do you're notjust you know, neglectful whatever, you're
also actively covering this up and likemisleading police, right, what the fuck?
Yeah, And another story said itwasn't that night, it was the
day after that. He's sending textsfrom his phone, which is like ridiculous,
that's insane. So at the trial, I know where this is going,
(34:24):
and I'm so annoyed, like already, yeah, you know, at
the trial, roy b invoked hisright to remain silent. His lawyer will
give a statement later, but notduring the trial. He says nothing.
In twenty twenty, after some COVIDrelated delays, the Public Prosecution Service officially
(34:45):
recommended a three and a half yearsentence, and after finding him guilty for
essentially just not calling one one two, which is the yeah, yes,
it's it's their emergency number, andthe official finding specified you know, it
did say like it's really bad thatyou didn't call emergency services, and essentially
(35:07):
did is equivalent to some kind oflike minor assault or something. But it's
agreeing with his story. His versionof things that he just washed him drown
and didn't get help, which frankly, I feel like should come with a
bigger punishment, Like even if thatis what happened, that's really bad.
You have to make an effort tohelp someone. I feel like that's I
(35:29):
know, that's law here. Ifyou're watching someone die or be assaulted,
you have to make an effort,like right legally, and there's and there's
for example, those cases I covereda long and long ago of like hazing
where people someone's dying of alcohol poisoningand the rap voice is satron didn't help
(35:49):
him. That's like murder. Yeah, like call it's negligent homicide, right,
isn't that what it would be called? Yes? Yeah, a negligent
homside something like that. Yeah.Yeah. So after so, despite this
being a very light sentence by allaccounts, he appealed it and gave a
(36:09):
statement saying he disagreed with the verdict. That's his only statement to date,
through his lawyer. And wouldn't youbelieve with Cindy that appeal was successful.
He was re sentenced to only tenweeks. Seriously, yep, really shitty.
(36:30):
H And after the verdict, Iguess the redoing of the verdict.
The judge addressed the Orlando's family,who were apparently crying and screaming and freaking
out in the courtroom, obviously veryunhappy with this choice. Yeah, and
I really disliked the way the judgeput it. He said, quote,
I can imagine this is a bitterpill to swallow for you, but we
(36:52):
have to look at the facts,and we had no other option than this
ruling. Yeah, you did.You could have not overturned the sentence that
was original three years. Obviously theyfound differently than you. Yep. So
he was released, this guy,and obviously, and he was actually arrested
(37:12):
as far as I can tell,in early twenty twenty four on suspicion of
grooming a young a young boy minor. Oh, I bet they'll give him
a hearty five week sentence for thatone. Really, as of March,
she was on conditional release from detentionwhile awaiting his trial for that case.
So clearly this guy's piece of shit. Clearly he's some kind of predator of
(37:36):
younger boys. It's going to escalate, it's gonna get bad. He's obviously
a fucking gonna be a serial killer, and they need to get their heads
out of their asses and prevent that, because I feel like we're going to
be back here in a year talkingabout this guy again. Yeah, it's
definitely possible. I hope not.But a victim's advocate who represents Orlando's mom
gave a statement in the press sayingthat this basically sent him is bullshit,
(38:00):
doesn't do justice to the case quoteunquote. And I like this quote,
he said, he said, quoteas the quart of appeal rightly consider the
extent to which someone can be criminallyblamed does not, in all cases correspond
to the moral reproach that someone ismade. So it's like they're like,
okay, you're being technical, butthere's also the moral question of like this
(38:21):
was so wrong, right, Yeah. An attempt was made to actually change
the legislation in response as well toOrlando's murder or death or what do we
even call it, And this wasan attempt attempt to classify quote unquote failure
(38:42):
to help someone in mortal danger asa crime rather than an offense. So
I think that's like a maybe aDutch equivalent to like felony misdemeanor kind of
thing, you know, like makingit more serious of a crime and therefore
allowing for higher penalties, but itdid not pass. So unsatisfying. Yeah,
again, it's just like with theNew Zealand. It's like, I
(39:05):
really love that you're super light sentencingin ninety nine percent of cases, but
then there's certain times, certain timeswhere you're like, oh God, this
sucks. It's unfortunate, and it'sdefinitely in my opinion. Also, I
wanted to say this case and there'smore people online that agree with me,
and I have said this. I'mnot conventing this idea, but I think
(39:27):
this case, like the one youtalked about Jennifer Saint Clair, you know,
could it could be just a reallydisturbing negligence of like not calling you
know, the emergency services and likethat's horrible. But I actually think this
case is suspicious of more foul playthan just negligent homicide. And maybe it's
(39:49):
for lack of evidence. Maybe it'sfor lack of investigation because he was a
young, queer black man, right, that is the reason they didn't like
go further or dig there and justaccept this guy's story. But to me,
the texting from the phone, thelike, I don't know, it's
just the he could have just pulledhim out of the water, right,
(40:10):
the fact that he's so close,Like, well, it's just like our
guy, My guy could have pulledher out of the road, like yes,
But also if he like strangled himand dumped him in the water,
could they have even Like, Imean, the autopsy results did reveal that
he died from drowning, so weknow that he wasn't killed first, that
that we do know, But likehe could have pushed knocked him unscious,
(40:32):
right, he could have pushed himin. I feel like there's ways that
this could have Yeah, I feellike I'm suspicious of more yeah, in
this case. Yeah, And there'salso a really good article out there about
basically the danger that queer black youthand queer youth more broadly are put in
when they try to explore their sexuality, like doing these sort of dangerous liaisons
(40:54):
and stuff. So I think that'sdefinitely an element to that as well.
Yeah, that's the case of OrlandoBouldavine. Oh my god, that's frecked
up. That's really fucked up.Wow, I mean, at least okay
(41:15):
in mind, like he didn't evenget like any sort of you know,
sentencing or anything you know, Soit's like, you know, I don't
know. No, that sucks.Yeah, that's fucked up. Good lord.
(41:37):
Okay, well anyway, fuck whatare we doing next week? So
I thought about it, and Ihave a two pronged wish. I I
think he'll I think he'll be down. I want to well, I have
a specific niche thing I want tolook for, and then a backup if
if we can't get the niche thing. Okay, number number one I want
(42:00):
to do. Yeah, I wantto do people murdered at World Heritage sites.
Whoa Okay, because one time,one time we found a murdered its
Stonehenge, and so I got reallyexcited about that. And I know what
one other which is a technically aterrorist attack, but I might do it
at the Temple of Chepsit in Luxorso I know, just another more anyway,
(42:29):
So I I really want to dothat, But if I can't find
it, I think we should defaultto just another redux and of people murdered
on vacation because it's seasonal and becausethere's tons of them, so gillion.
Yeah, and it ties into thisweek because we just you just talked about
Grace Maline. Yeah. True,because she was on vacation. She fits
(42:52):
so many categories. It's fucked up, yes, yes, first on vacation
and murdered on our birthday. Terribly, she didn't get any of those categories.
I wish she was alive, enjoyingher twenties and having a wonderful life.
But here we fucking are. Okay, yeah that sounds great. Wait,
(43:13):
what's what was the more big one, the more big version? Oh
vacation Okay, yeah, yeah,yeah, all that because I mean World
Heritage Site, you're probably on vacationif you're visiting them, would be exactly
yeah. If nothing else, I'llinclude one of those in my vacation list.
And also I'm going on kind ofvacation this weekend, so it's relevant,
(43:37):
right, lucky you. Let's getinto the mood. All right,
guys, thanks for listening. Pleaselike review. We'll be back soon with
more and until then, stay offaar I. Let us start up right, akay,
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